Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #174 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried, that I know like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Here's something I found interesting, the presence of a leash, the sex of a dog's owner and the sex of the dog itself all play a part in the aggressiveness of a dog when they're being walked. So dogs being walked by men are four times more likely to attack and bite another dog. Why is this? Well, it's because many dogs not only react to the behavior and posture of other dogs around them, but also to their people. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Nathan Dewsbury is a seasoned expert in the animal health and wellness industry, with a track record of launching successful product-focused companies. His unique blend of scientific and business development skills has been instrumental in developing, manufacturing, and commercializing innovative nutritional supplements and testing programs. His extensive experience includes participation in multi-national health testing programs and guiding product development from R&D stages to commercial launch, giving him a comprehensive understanding of the entire process. Nathan received his graduate degrees in science and business from Texas A&M University and has numerous scientific publications to his name. Welcome dog lovers to yet a another informative Wag Out lLoud pawdcast episode. I am so excited to chat with Nathan Dewsbury and we are going to talk about applying science correctly for dogs. So Nate, thank you so much for being here today. Oh happy to be here, Krista. So thank you. Well, before we get started, if you could please introduce yourself and tell us when this passion for canine health started for you. Oh, no worries. So I am one of the co-owners and founders of rogue pet science. And so we've been for me, I've been doing this for the better part of 12 years, but we've been publicly available for the better part of six years now. And, you know, I'm a scientist by trade, a lot of diverse background in production animals, solving health problems the world over. I'm also a business trained scientist as well. So I've ran labs, I've developed diagnostics to help develop early stage research for vaccine development, dog cancer development work with Texas A&M and lot more of the dog trainer I competed in protection sports, you know, I've kind of done it all. And this diverse background allows me to see not just health issues, but a lot of issues from a multiple points of view. So I'm very well rounded. So not very silonated in just one little area, though, I've been in multiple silos. And so early on during my early developmental time as a, as a trainer, training my dog competing with my dogs helping others with, you know, raw diet and all that conversions back in the in the late 1990s. That's really weird to say that. I was, you know, there were three books published on this topic. I mean, back when you had to read books. So, you know, I was doing this I was traveling with the dogs, living with them full time, you know, as we traveled multiple states, and really realized that, you know, there's so much more than we can do on the dry food side that it wasn't a solution. And even on the raw food side. It was you know, it was helping a lot of people we were getting a lot of abatement, but we weren't getting resolution on a lot of issues. They still reoccurred but they were definitely diminished. And then the inconvenience of raw for those if you've ever traveled with dogs, even when I was getting it for free, it was still inconvenient and the timing of it so that was kind of starting a seed in my mind. I was like there's gotta be a better way. At the time. I didn't know exactly what it was I was studying immune systems immune responses, development in like vaccine development research work in animals so didn't know exactly what all was going on until I got exposure globally into the gut health side of it and understanding those factors. So when you fast forward later in my career after grad school, I'm traveling still globally helping production animals, dairy, swine, poultry, still in the dog food side of things as well, and started realizing that it wasn't that, you know, it was this really defining moment, other than I'm constantly asked by, you know, a lot of my working dog guys that have kennels, with the dogs, you know, bird dog guys, hunting guys. And production sport guys, they're like, you know, when are you going solve these problems, Nate when you can solve these problems, so they knew what I did and what I was what I really enjoyed working dogs. And so it wasn't that there was a defining moment, Krista, it was more like, at some point, I felt an obligation. And that obligation was that I had knowledge, I had the experience, I know what needed to be done. So I'm obligated to do this for other pet owners around the world, which has been our mission. And thankfully, we're around the world, literally, with our products, helping pet animals everywhere. So that's the short of it, I would say there was no defining, oh, I tried everything in the world. I solved this, and so I created something, it's like, I had to create what I did, because no one was doing it because I did look around. And it wasn't that I didn't try, I did look around, I did try. And it just none of it made sense from a fundamental scientific standpoint, from a nutritional standpoint, because you got to remember, both my co owner, Blake Jackson, and I, we've been longtime friends for a very long time. And we, we started training dogs together, we were working out together, we competed in our respective sports personally, on our own. This is not like high school or college, it's beyond that, that we were competing ourselves. So we were constantly and still to this day students of nutrition, gut health, you know, meta genomic, you know, these nutrigenomics, you know, all this information is still ongoing. But we were applying this to dogs. And of course, we knew this about ourselves. And it was not a lot of rollover from the human world circulating down to the pet world. Only if you were involved in production animals, which are 20 years ahead of the pet space. That's how far they are in of course knowledge and what works, what doesn't work and why they're doing things. So I was able to apply all that exposure and private research that was seen and know what works and what didn't work and was able to develop that over six years into developing the first product, which was our, our Origins 5 in 1 product not to plug that product. Now that that was our plug that's our flagship product, and it's changed. It's helped a lot of people around the world. That is awesome. Well, Nate, you're going to chat with us about the science that is available for our dogs to realize optimal health and nutrition. But with so many different food choices and supplements on the market, how do we know? What is really going to help our dogs to thrive when it comes to the science that's available to us today? Yeah, big question. Right? How to Navigate the Dog Food & Supplement Market Yeah, it's huge question. And I think it causes a lot of stress. And in grief for for pet owners, whether they're experienced or not, you know, your average, you know, say, pet owner, and then also your training or your working dog level, guys, it causes them some stress and grief. Am I doing enough? Is this working? I don't know. I hope so. So it's a lot of emotional factors in there, that aren't exactly rooted in, in knowledge, or, as far as the science goes, being able to understand any science to understand you know, how to make better decisions. And that's not that's not on the owner, not entirely for sure. There's a lot of confusion out there, because we've always had this, saying that from the very beginning, you know, we're we're not a marketing company that happens to have a pet product line. We're a pet science company that develops functional nutritional tools, that solves problems, that we happen to do marketing, to sell the product to get in the hands on that. So that has been our biggest differentiation point, by anybody out there, as far as any quasi associated products to us, or the brands related to us in our space. So that leads into like, that we need better products, not more products. And unfortunately, you know, I mean, unfortunately, but fortunately, you know, we're, we're in the United States. So, we have that opportunity, anybody can create a product, you know, we say the market has potential for any good product. Well a good product is, is situational. And the market will always tell you what's a winner, but not always the best product ultimately be a winner at the end of the day, but we've been fortunate enough that we do have the best products. So we say we need better products, not more products, better products, meaning that not only the background information or the background science of why maybe individual components work, right there's a lot of focus, you know, narrow focus on, you know, enzymes, probiotics, the nutritional Things like raw proteins, as well as mega fatty acids happening, the science on those in different animal models, human models, you know, they work, but it's when you put them into a complex system, like the GI tract that you the GI tract environment, that that's where, what you started with on the foundations of the scientific components of it, that's when they start falling apart, right, that's why it took six years to develop our first product was because once you start putting things together, and then you put it into a incredibly complex and complicated environment, like the GI tract, then all bets are off. Because unless you've studied that product in that animal species, and measure, and then are able to measure the outcomes, positive or negative, or how what's changing, why it's changing, you know, understanding these things, then you'll never really understand that there's no observable change, right? Or easy to understand outcome, or that's even measurable or attainable tests that can be measured by your veterinarian, or some at home type testing. So that's where a lot of the, you know, the pet owners are being and consumers are being trained, oh, where's the science? Where's this study? Where's this digestibility study? You know, they say that, but then they vote with their money with the products they buy. And it is contradictory in that, in that in that same point, as well. So you know, it's not, we try to do the best we can educate and train because if we can read the body of knowledge, then we can all become better decision makers in how we treat our, our pets, and what we give them to give the best outcome to get the best quality of life outcome at the end. That's, you know, that's, that's the important part. Well, if we feed a species appropriate diet, and you and I both agree that that would be a raw and or fresh food diet. Isn't that enough? Or do we all need to supplement? Why Do Our Dogs Need Supplementation? Yeah, so, you know, that's one of the most highly debated things, right? It's about nutrition, right? It's like, oh, it's like, you know, nutrition. Everybody's got an opinion, literally, everybody's got an opinion. And so yeah, we, you know, I'm a big proponent of raw and fresh or minimally processed as minimally processed as possible. But you’re not, you know a bad owner, if you can't do that, right. Because it's the world we live in, right? It's affordable convenience is the biggest driver, right? Even my I find myself, you know, inconvenience conundrums about what to do when I'm gone. How does my wife feed the two dogs, you know, type of deal. So we have that, right. So that's the bigger component, right? The the nutrition is the foundation, or it's one of the biggest components that goes into the animal alright, it's the food. But that's where we start getting into this realm of passive nutrition versus active nutrition. Right? So passive is, you know, adding protein, you know, that's the biggest market product category out there was like protein toppers, right, you know, you get all this new pork and beef and, you know, kangaroo I mean, who knows what's gonna come out? Armadillo, insects, which I'm definitely not a fan of, you know, you put these toppers on, right? Well, that's nutrition. Right canned food, raw, you know, those are nutrition components are passive, meaning that they're not actively making too many changes. And, you know, this specifically, is when you're dealing with health issues. If that was the case, then feeding these other diets, you know, if you're on a raw diet, you know, you're still your dogs still get sick, they still have allergy, like issues that flare up, maybe seasonally, I mean, there's so many other things associated reproduction issues, there's, there's other things that we tend to associate with like, Oh, they're not getting enough nutrition, it's like, well, this isn't we're active nutrition comes in. So what we focus on too, is that the active nutrition side of making changes to the GI tract to boost its ability to do its job allows us to also improve the immune response later on inflammation responses, as well as the nutritional component, because you do need the quality nutrition to set the pH range of the GI tract, before you can do anything to get that back in balance, that'll have a positive change. And then you got to have the other if you will, the pillars of gut health, that if you're going to make any changes, you need to address these other pillars. So you're need to address the pH obviously, you need to address the the surface layer. So the mucosal barrier, the lining the support of the lining the microbes that are there and you get to worry about those guys that are there feeding those good guys and not perpetuating bad guys because you perpetuate that system and you know, how is it bagged and tagged as nutrients, you know, all these little things factor in so if you're not addressing all of those, it doesn't matter what you're feeding. If the bad the gut environment is not favorable to the animals in favor of dysbiosis or a negative type of you know, if you will, in this case, a tilt towards the negative side. You have a lot of inefficiencies that are happening, and you know, stress in the world stress on, you know, on the living situation and stress on the immune system from the environment. So like viruses and pathogens, you know, there's so many factors that come in, that play a role, that even just focusing on the best diet is not going to be enough. And that's not even factoring in the quality of these raw diets. And these were all components, right? Because those, the quality of those components in those diets matter about what that animal, that animal was being fed. So, you know, there's a depletion in our environment, obviously. So it's like, are we getting enough, you know, of the vitamins and minerals and the key cofactors, that's going to support you know, hormone production, and as well as the macro side of it, because everybody focuses on, right, you know, macros, it's the sexy thing, right? protein, protein, and it is important in fact, but then it's like, well, what about the phyto nutrition? What about the macro nutrition, have you know, magnesium and it's there have been selenium and its proponents later on it that it's cofactors in to get like the glutathione, but they're involved in many metabolic not just food metabolism, but cellular metabolic mechanisms throughout the body. Nate, I’m going to stop you right there. So we're gonna take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Hold tight, everybody. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody, we are chatting with Nate Dewsbury. And he's blowing my mind. We just talked about active nutrition. And in the market today, we are pretty much just focusing on passive nutrition. So Nate, are you saying that we, with what we're feeding our dogs, both food and supplementation, that we are just putting a bandaid and trying to fix a problem or symptom that we're seeing that we're not addressing the entire body itself and what it needs? We Aren’t Addressing the Issues Yes, that's the easy way to say that we are putting band aids on it or chasing our tail, pun intended on this one, where you have some knowledge and some buzzwords that have been perpetuated out there very nicely. But it's either not used correctly, it's not applied correctly, or it's the wrong format to be applied the way they thought it was gonna be. But it's just not going to have the function. And that's where you get a lot of these, you know, wives tales and the misuse and applications of ingredients or supplements or products, that just doesn't work definitely like, oh, I, you know, I've tried all that nothing worked or, you know, I've dealt with cases where they've done 5000, 3000 plus dollars, that's thrown everything but the kitchen sink at an issue, I mean, going as far as buying energizes crystal waters, the wave over at all to help with allergies. And they will genuinely try adding all these probiotics and the standalone products, and they're in combinations, and it wasn't working as well not wonder so you know, obviously quality issue and the format issue, but then it's like, also how you put this together to work correctly. And that's why we were able to do it with a single product in our, in our case, to make these changes very quickly, and get resolution on the problem. And then they have what's you know, to them a normal dog again, you know, a healthy, active normal dog and they don't have to do anything special to just feeding it well and using you know, in this case Origins. So yeah, putting a bandaid on it is literally what's going on or you put enough band aids and you still not getting resolution, you're still having, you know, slight issues or it flares up very quickly with the you know, the wind blows wrong and it's going to change on you a little bit or you change food or something and it's just a whole nother the same situation all over again. And that's where the science the shelf concept that we've coined comes into play because that's ultimately what our mission is always doing, we're not, we're not making products just to make products. Because then we can easily have, you know, 36 different products easily. If I can do that, within four weeks, it's not even hard to do. But that's just not what we do. So science to shelf is basically means developing products, the way science says works. And so if you do that, and you're paying attention, and applying this correctly for the species, it doesn't look the way you think it looks. And in our case, we've actually had to develop the individual ingredients, sometimes to get the format that we need to put it with something else to give us that value add proposition to give that multiplex to health, as you will approach to help addressing why we develop a product. Yeah, so. So case in point, because it's hard to, you know, not be product specific for us, because, you know, I saw all these issues. So like, you know, why we created our Pumpkin Pro, we had to develop our fermented turmeric and ginger product, to give us this natural and powerful anti inflammatory that we know works culturally, from an ingredient standpoint, many cultures that use it, and why do they use it, but then when you look at the science is whether it's culture, life studies, dog studies, human studies using this, when you actually read them or call them up and talk to all the PI's that are running the study, you can find a lot of other extra information. But you also find out the methods that they used. And even though they even though they they write it out in their studies, they tell you what they how they use and what they what they did to manipulate it, but that's not, that's where things fall off, right? It's like, oh, well, turmeric is good. And you add black pepper, and you get this, you know, three fold increase in absorption uptake. And it's like, whoa, hold on there. But turmeric is one of those misused by owners and industry type of marketing buzzwords that are misused all the time, I would never use regular turmeric off the shelf, either. So we had to create a fermented version, to make it biologically available to get those bioflavonoids, those curcuminoids these other components that are beneficial in there. the essential oils that are in these roots, that that help as that CO transporter, just like pepper pepper, in this case, is the central pepper. Well, Mother Nature's printing smart. And they have their own essential oils to help with carriers that are studied that show the same increase in uptake. So you had to create this amazing product. And then I needed that the couple with, you know, the most amazing pumpkin product to get that two step approach to managing, you know, GI distress, stomach upset issues naturally, and for it to actually work very quickly, not just throw pumpkin fiber at at a situation that's not actually that's only addressing the human’s issue that's not addressing the dog's issue. So we created that two step approach to manage the issue in the animal, in the dog, in this case, the GI tract, and then inflammation that causes the villi to shrink up. And then we also solve the owner’s issue with the best human grade pumpkin you can ever get. So we addressed that. So that's what we developed, and stuff like that. And other things that I've been testing for like two years now. So what happened, let's go back to wolves. They self selected what they needed to eat nutrition wise. Now we have our modern domestic dog. And I feel like we need to supplement so much more, is it because of the environment that they're living in? The stressors? You pointed out that, you know, there's a lot less nutritional value even in the food that we grow, you know, in the soil that is depleted? Why is it so different now with a dog that we have to address all of these other issues with food and supplementation? Why Today Do We Need to Supplement? Great, great question actually. So you also have to take into consideration that the the domesticated dog, as we know, it co evolved with humans, you know, obviously along the waterways, so their micro biomes changed in parallel to humans, as well because we were sharing the same environment like face to face sharing the environment, and they co evolved with the humans and so they they did diverge from the feral side of their their genealogy. And when you do that, well we have some changes and so any also if you think about, you know very easily think about the past even as early as the 50s but way later as well because they coevolved and they were eating other products we were also eating different products. You know, meat scraps, not us but we were eating meat and they were getting a lot of raw components as You know, in this case, it just overflow product or, or byproduct waste product from the human side. And so they were getting, you know, raw bones, they were getting organ cut offs, and, you know, collagen cut offs and organs as well. And then even some of the intestinal components as well. So they were, at some point, they were getting a lot of what their ancestral relatives were getting as well. And then the modern world is a tough world as we know it today. And, you know, we have many factors, even the city water is a factor. The air quality is a factor, obviously, and those are stressors. But the biggest conversion, you know, the biggest change, I think happened was the convenience factor, which was based on the war, there's plenty of people have written about the introduction started the, the processed kibble, the dry food, the extrusion process, when that started, and it was convenience. And for cost effectiveness, you know, we were in the middle of economic turmoil with wars and stuff. So it was that but it never the convenience was so high that it never went away. Well, diverge away from that long enough. And you're going to have some some some issues. So they the lack of diversity of the fresh quality ingredients, or minimally processed ingredients kind of took a left turn on us as dogs, though pet owners, and that allowed, you know, these, these holes to be created. And then things have only been perpetuated further. But I think over the last easily five years now, things have been moving closer to what you and I both know is more of like the whole prey type concept of being more or being revisited, talked about more and being focused on and you know, being able to include, you know, even fresh vegetables, and fruits and other organs when you can get them. That is a big help. And owners, I think are actually seeing that impact on their animals very easily with liver, you can see, you know, a lot of energy changes, obviously, because it's all the B vitamins in liver, you'll see energy changes and disposition changes. So the more we focus on that, and then also how do we help them process the dry food because remember, just because you've been through our food, you're not a bad owner. It's not about that. So there's other tips and tricks we've obviously bring about and talk about and educate on to help them process help them help their dogs to process that, that dry food, like the hot water trick, and things like that to to unlock the format, because it's, it's all about the format, right, the less processed you get, you get more inconvenience, but you get better nutrition, and then you get on the processed foods and get ultimate convenience, but it's a format problem. So, you know, you need other factors to help the dogs actually process that. And normally, they would have gotten these things through the prey animal like, you know, rodents and other small animals they would have that are designed to eat grasses and roots and vegetables and like that they would have you know, dogs and feral, you know, wolves and stuff that would get those ingredients fermented or processed, indirectly getting these vitamins and minerals, and plus the organs and everything else. So it's a trade off that we're just trying to balance out the equation. I think ultimately, what I'm trying to do is recreate that whole prey model just in a more convenient way and cost effective ways that allow owners to actually replicate what dogs really are missing, and make it convenient in this modern world to help them actually thrive. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's a lot. No, I love it. I love geeking out and the science behind it. So Rogue Pet Science, what gap are you guys filling in the market? What is Rogue Pet Science? So it's really about making health focused products that actually work at the end of the day they have to work, you have to be able to test things to make sure that they work as well, which we've done. And so we are we are filling that in this multiplex format. So it's being able to address multiple deficiencies, whether it's on the gut health side or the nutritional side, that cumulate together to solve not just health issues, but performance issues, you need nutrition, you need gut health to get ultimate performance, whether that's just the best health possible for your for your pet dog, or the working ability of a detection dog, a police dog, or, you know, these competitive, you know, like flyball and agility and stuff like that as well. So that's, that's really what we're doing. And when we do that, we put the science into it. So that's really the big differentiators that we're one of the few products out there. There's not many, only a couple actually have real science into their products, the way they work in an animal proven that they do. And we've developed and co-developed tests to also show that value and I think that's ultimately where the future is going to be able to go is this personalized or individualized nutrition for your pet at different stages of life. That's that's ultimately where things gonna end up going. We’re already seeing it on the human side. Right, so your products no matter what people feed their dog, they will help all of their bodily processes. Absolutely. Okay, awesome. Well, as we are wrapping up, Nate, I know that you have an offer for our listeners. And this is really exciting. Do you want to share that? Or do you want me to talk about it? Go ahead and talk about it. OFFER for 25% Off Awesome. Well, the team at Rogue Pet Science along with Nate is offering 25% off for you guys to try their amazing science backed products. So the code is Wag25. And that would get you 25% off of your entire purchase. And can you briefly since we're almost out of time, Nate, just tell us what kind of products you do have for them to choose from. Yeah, we have multiple food toppers, if you will, that category. So we have our Origins 5 in 1, which has all the prebiotics and probiotics, the post biotic the digestive enzymes, all the gut health side of it, plus the wild fish, which is all the organs and the end, concentrated Omega fatty acids all 42 of them, we have a natural weight gainer and weight maintainer we call Healthy Weight, which is all food based actually no no tricks, no sugars, it's just all whole food based with the gut health complexes in there. Not all of them, but most of them that actually help process those extra calories. Because it's all egg yolk, egg white, fermented barley and stuff like that, we have our Pumpkin Pro, which is you can use it as a fiber or an enrichment for diversity of the diet as well. Or if you're having you know, traveling and trying to manage stress, avoiding stress, stuff like that. And then we also have our concentrated fermented turmeric and ginger, which is a standalone mainly for senior animals, or injury prevention, if you need a powerful antioxidant, like you can use on a weekend for recovery type purposes, for the performance dog. And then we have a few other obviously, we got some Rogue gears and nice Rogue gear and bowls and tents. But we have some health tests that are tested and verified, yak sticks, which we're big fans of and adopted those way early on. And we have the best jerky treats you could ever think of which are all human grade. So most of our products are literally human grade ingredients that you can eat yourself. We're just packaged in for pet animals, for animals in general. So yeah, and then so the code is very generous, because at the end of the day, you have zero risk. There's no BS involved with us. We're here to earn trust. At the end of the day, if we can't earn that, then I don't want you buying our products. So don't you want to use it don't do what you want. zero risk return, there are no questions asked. But the end of the day. It's all about earning trust. And our products work, and we're willing to show it. I love it. Well, thank you for that very generous offer. Nate, where can everyone find out more information about you and Rogue Pet Science? Absolutely. The website, obviously, that you could go to for finding information about us the company the products. That's RoguePetScience. And it's the same on Instagram, which we do a lot of some slightly different content there. Even on Facebook, it is also @RoguePetScience, where we do a lot of Article posts and some very inside information industry inside information that we post about articles and stuff that we actually write and develop and further refine as new science comes to light. So you can find a lot of information there. We have a newsletter you can sign up for that gets you on a list that we were very, very light handed on the emails that we send out. So we won't gum up the works on your inbox as well. So that is those are the best ways. And then if you have any questions, the fastest way is either through Instagram messaging, or through Facebook Messenger. Somebody's always monitoring them even late at night like I am, and we're gonna get your answers no matter what. Your Social Media URLs or Tags       Instagram: rogue pet science      Facebook: rogue pet science      LinkedIn: rogue pet science   Your website URL:      www.roguepetscience.com Perfect. Well of course, all of this information with the links is going to be in the show notes. But of course with podcasting, this is audio. So that is RoguePetScience. And again, WAG25 gets you 25% off of your entire purchase. Nate, thank you so much for being here today. I think that we love geeking out about science and dogs here. So hopefully we've piqued some people's interests. And again, go check out RoguePetScience. Nate, thank you for all that you do. Thank you for everything you do to help us get our voices and information out to everybody. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code WOL10 For 10% off.

Hey there! This is Krista with Episode #173 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast and I think that you all know that your dog's urine contains markers, and that informs other dogs of their presence, their social standing and their sexual availability. But maybe you didn't know that male dogs lift their legs as high as they can, so they can distribute their message better, and allow their scent to travel further. And a study done a few years ago found that smaller dogs try to lift their legs even higher, so that they seem bigger to other dogs who may be around. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Daniel Schulof is an entrepreneur, activist, and science writer with a focus on exposing the conflicts of interest, bad faith, and shoddy science responsible for the chronic disease epidemics killing millions of pets every year. His 2016 book "Dogs, Dog Food, and Dogma" has been called "the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written" and his lectures and articles have been seen by hundreds of thousands of pet owners. He is the founder of KetoNatural Pet Foods and the Petfood Consumer Rights Council. Welcome dog lovers to yet another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today I am thrilled to have Daniel Schulof here. And he's going to talk about Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And Daniel, first of all, I want to thank you for being with us. You know, it's been a while since we've had you on the schedule. Yeah, look, the pleasure is home mine. I, you know, I've been fortunate enough to do more than a few podcasts interviews in my life. And I will tell you that you have the fullest calendar of any podcast host with whom I have ever dealt. And it's a credit to the work that you do. You have you have a full plate. Yes, I do. Well, thank you, Daniel, I appreciate that. Why don't we get started by having you introduce yourself? And I'd love for you to share why are you so passionate about disrupting the canine nutrition space? Because you actually call out those who are totally misinformed. Yeah, I mean, so by way of introduction, you're right. I'm, I wear a bunch of different hats. But they're all kind of in service of the same idea. And that idea is that the pet owning public has been misinformed in important ways about what the scientific record says about a variety of issues of serious importance pertaining to nutrition in dogs and cats. And that as a result of that there is harm accruing to the public, both to the pets. And of course, to the owners that love them and that are emotionally harmed when their animals get sick in unnecessary ways. Like I said, I wear a few different hats. Because I've got a pretty diverse background. And at the risk of patting myself on the back too much. I've got some diverse skills. I practiced law for a while I'm a lawyer. I've also started numerous entrepreneurial ventures, both for profit and nonprofit. And I've written a book and it's a big fat science book about veterinary nutrition stuff. And so as a result of all of that I've kind of got a unique knowledge base. And I like to think that I've got the unique skill set to make a difference on that issue that matters a lot to me. And so you know, I've founded a couple of companies, the most notable one is called Keto Natural Pet Foods. We Make Low Carb dog food. But yeah, I can tell you more about nonprofit stuff I could tell you about book stuff I can tell you about why all this matters so much to me, wherever you want me to take it. Great. Well, that's why you're here with us today. And yes, you wrote the book. It's the same title as this episode, Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And it has been referred to as the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written. That's pretty remarkable. I like to I'm proud of it. It took me four years is a big project for me. I began it. I mean, it really grew up from… the seeds of it was just a personal note taking exercise, honestly. And then fast forward like four years and I had like, changed careers, produced this 400 page book flown all around the country and you know, put this whole big thing together. But really it all began I was working as a lawyer, and I got my I grew up with dogs, but I got my first dog it was like My dog and I was a single guy living, you know, kind of yuppie big city, lonely type lifestyle, got this dog, he changed my life in a very positive way I got really into him. And through, you know, almost through kind of coincidental or just happenstance, I grew really interested in the subject of obesity in pets. And it sounds super weird and random. But I'm a recreational athlete, I do a lot of like endurance sports stuff, I run long and that kind of thing. And so I was doing, I'd always been interested in the science surrounding that how to get better at that kind of stuff. And it's sort of tied to the doggy world in those, you know, there's like a doggy analogue for that. And my dog was a Rottweiler, big, male, Rottweiler, and like quintessentially Rottweilery. He was intense, big, serious dog needed daily exercise is sort of the take home point here. And so, you know, I like exercise played a role in my personal life, I was trying to understand how to exercise him better, I'm starting to read the relevant studies on that topic. And then I get started learning about the problem of obesity, both with regards to my personal care for my dog, but then the bigger societal problem of it, how just how, the how significant the scale, the problem was, and what began as just me trying to understand what the study said about how to like exercise my dog best, became this big adventure, to try to explain why so many dogs in the country are overweight or obese, even though it's absolutely horrible for them. And even though pet owners have never before in the history of the world, cared more devoted more resources to their their dogs and cats, do you think, given everything we know about how bad obesity is in people and how much everybody knows it's bad for their animals, you’d think this would be the easiest thing in the world. And it's turning out to be the hardest thing in the world, it's more than half the dogs in the country are overweight or obese. So you and I have never met. And I've never had the privilege of meeting any of your dogs. And I'm not casting any aspersions. But as a as a purely numerical matter, it's more likely than not that your dog is over one of your dogs is overweight or obese, more than half that I do pick a dog at random, more likely it's going to be and it's worse for those animals than a lifetime of smoking is for a person. The studies had been done where they follow these dogs out throughout their entire lives. And they look at how long the fat ones live and how long the not so fat ones live. And it turns out that on a percentage basis, if your dog is just moderately overweight, so not like colossally clinically obese, huge animal, but moderately overweight, going to shorten its lifespan, on average by about as much as a human being that smokes cigarettes from the time they're 18 years old until the day they die. horrible problem. doesn't make sense to me. And I spent four years trying to understand the answer, basically. And that's what that's what my book was published in 2016. I've been gratified that it's gotten mostly positive feedback. And it does provide my attempt to explain why that kind of inexplicable situation has arisen. Well, Daniel, you mentioned that you started looking into obesity. And if we look at obesity in ourselves, we can say that poor nutrition and the lack of exercise definitely are the two contributors to that. And in your book, you're talking about scientific misinformation when it comes to animal nutrition, you know, or nutrition for our pets. So what do you think is the root of the problem when it comes down to it? So you're 100%, right, that you can impact fatness using a variety of levers, but kind of the two that moves the needle the most are diet and exercise, right? The main thesis of my book is that number one, the most powerful lever, and essentially the only one that really matters when it comes to dogs and cats is dietary carbohydrates. That consumption of dietary carbohydrate is essentially the fundamental cause of America's pet obesity epidemic, that the vast majority of pet food products being sold on the market today. Whether they are expensive ones or not so expensive ones are loaded up with carbohydrates for a variety of reasons. And the science shows both that what that does at a like molecular cellular level produces fatness. So the studies have been done where it's basically okay what happened a dog eats carbohydrate, what happens within its body that's different than when a dog eats protein, and that stuff's all been worked out. And it explains kind of a process of pathophysiology. Again, there's like kind of technical word that produces more fattening than consumption of other calories for calories and consumption of other nutrients. And so there's this big, fat scientific record. And we're talking about, you know, the same exact study, having been done something like six times last time, six times when I wrote the book, I'm not sure that it's more now a lot of folks have kind of moved away from this topic. But basically, it's really in the world of human nutrition. This is a hard like thesis to test, it's hard to get people to with rigorous control, eat a very specific number of calories, hold their activity levels exactly the same, but differ their macro nutritional intake, if they're taking in carbs or protein for a long enough period of time to measure the differences in their bodies, because people want some degree of freedom in their lives, right, they want to be able to eat what they want, they're not going to like live in what's called a metabolic ward, where we can, you know, evaluate their activity and make sure they're burning the same number of calories. In the world of dogs and cats, not that hard. Like, it's been done half a dozen times, where you just take two different groups of animals that are matched in every way, you make sure that their activity levels are exactly the same. In the world, dogs and cats are not that hard to do. And then you give them diets that are identical in every way, but one the same number of calories. But in one group, some more of those calories come from carbohydrates, and less from protein. And in the other group, it's relatively high protein, relatively low carbohydrate, but again, the exact same number of calories in the exact same amount of exercise out, every single time that study has been done, the same thing happens. The animals that are eating the higher carbohydrate diet get fat, and the animals that are eating the lower carbohydrate diet, don't get fat, right. It's a huge body of evidence. I'm like reading, you know, reading these studies, looking at this stuff, and I'm saying, okay, so this must be the missing link here. Why is nobody talking about this? Why is it that when you pick up a veterinary nutrition textbook, this is not a thesis or a subject that's covered in any significant amount of detail. These studies literally aren't discussed and are literally not sighted. And a big chunk of the book is my attempt to try to explain that why the heck would that be? This is a clear explanation for what we all recognize kind of the biggest nutritional problem in dogs and cats. And it's not in the textbook, what's going on here? And sort of the second half of the book is this big. It's a social exercise, trying to understand why we know what the science says, Okay, why are we not talking about that science? Right. Well, a lot of people don't even realize that dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates. Yet, the majority of these huge dry food/kibble manufacturers have between 30 or 60% carbohydrates. Do you want to talk about that? Well, yeah, yeah, you're first of all, you've got it exactly. Right. Both of those things are true dogs, unlike protein unlike fat. Unlike all kinds of proteins are made up of these nutrients called amino acids. And there's a bunch of different kinds unlike specific amino acids unlike specific vitamins and minerals. Dogs have no nutritional requirements for carbohydrates, super clear in the evidence. If you stop feeding a dog carbohydrates, absolutely nothing bad has ever been shown to happen. Not for dogs that, you know, sometimes people will say, if you run a low carb dog food company, sometimes people will push back on the notion that dogs don't need carbs and say, Well, what about you know, for energy, my dog is a big exercise dog. No. The studies have been done. They put a dog on a treadmill, and they put it and give it a high carbohydrate diet, and they give another dog on a treadmill, zero carbohydrate diet. And there's no real difference in the output. They just metabolize different nutrients for their energy to metabolize fat instead of carbohydrate. So both for exercise and for kind of any other conceivable reason, there's no need for carbohydrate. And when you think about it, and this is covered pretty extensively in my book, dogs’ evolutionary heritage suggests that it shouldn't require carbohydrate to get by in its diet. And that's because dogs are incredibly genetically similar to another but distinct species. Gray wolves. Gray wolves are the quintessential wild animals. Obviously, they're very dog like, obvious to the naked eye if you're not kind of trained up on this stuff. But what's like the degree of the similarity is kind of striking. In a chapter in my book, I lived with the Yellowstone Wolf Project, which is kind of the preeminent place in the United States for the study of grey wolves in the wild. And those people knew everything there is to know about wolves. And basically, wolves and dogs are two distinct species, like in the textbook. They're different species just like, you know, a human being and an orangutan. But they're so similar, that they can interbreed with one another, right? Yes, there are dog wolf hybrids to the tune of hundreds of 1000s of animals in the United States right now. Right. And that's not something that's like, actually kind of suggests they're not really two different species even like, that's like a lot of biologists will. That's how they describe the distinction between one species and another, can they successfully breed with one another. And, you know, at the risk of being weird, or gross or something, a human being and an orangutan cannot make a baby. If they mate that doesn't happen there but two biologically different, they're different species. That's not the case of dogs and wolves are incredibly similar. They're different in really two ways only. And this has all been worked out through genome sequencing studies, folks have figured out the domestic dogs genome, figured out the gray wolf genome and said, where are they the same way they're different. Two areas are different. One is the brain. And this is, think about it for a second is obvious one, you know, wolves are wild animals. And they have some degree of suggestibility in their behavior, but their brains are wired for to be wild animals really, whereas the dog has been through generations of selective breeding has developed the kind of brain and thereby the kind of behavior that we all know and love, they bond with people, etc. The other difference is the one that matters for this discussion, though, and that's that wolves don't digest carbohydrate very well at all. Daniel, I'm gonna stop you there because that's a great point. We are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody. We're speaking with Daniel Schulof and we were just talking about the similarities of our modern day dog versus the gray wolf. They are direct descendants and share over 90% of the same DNA. So you just mentioned Daniel that the brain differences between wolf and dog. And now we're gonna get into the need of carbohydrates. So take it away. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so dogs and wolves, they were the same species, they occupied the exact same genetic lineage up till essentially 10,000 years ago. So there is a dispute about it. But it's something like that. So for hundreds of millions of generations, they were the exact same species. And wolves continue to live as they've always lived. They live in the wild. And you talk to the folks the Yellowstone Wolf Project, or anyone else who knows the subject, well, they'll tell you they eat 0.00% carbohydrates. They eat essentially meat and nothing else. And, in fact, not just that they don't eat carbohydrates, but they don't eat it. And so their bodies aren't designed to metabolize this stuff very well. Unlike domestic dogs, and this is like kind of a second big difference between dogs and wolves. wolves don't produce one kind of enzyme in their saliva that both dogs and people produce called amylase. And amylase is used to break down carbohydrate molecules into individual molecules of glucose like, that's what happens when a complex carbohydrate goes from being in a loaf of bread to actually being in your blood. What it does is basically your digestive system breaks it down into individual molecules of glucose, like sugar. And amylase is like the what does the heavy lifting there, it's in your saliva. And it's like if you hold a piece of bread in your mouth for a while, it'll start to taste sweet. And the reason for that is because that's your salivary amylase Breaking down the chains of carbohydrate in that piece of bread into individual molecules glucose that taste sweet. And dogs over time, have evolved the ability to do that reasonably well. Wolves never have. So what we know from that is that up till 10,000 years ago, neither one of these species could consume carbohydrates in any significant amount. just over the past 10,000 years, which in the evolutionary scale thinks is the blink of an eye. Dogs have figured out through selective breeding, have gotten the ability to digest carbohydrate, they actually can pull nutrition out of it. That's not to say they can do it healthfully. And in fact, they cannot do it healthfully. But that's sort of how we know that like, no, a dog doesn't need carbohydrate, for energy, or for anything else there for 99.9% of their genetic evolution, they did just fine. wolves performed astounding amounts of physical work as a matter of daily existence. And they do it without any carbohydrate at all. And using fat as fuel correct? That's right, that is their primary fuel source and your body. a wolf’s body, dog's body has more than enough fat on hand at any given point, and all that the most extreme cases, to power all sorts of much more physical activity than any house pet would ever be asked to perform. Right. And Daniel, you believe that this carbohydrate consumption that most of our dogs have, is the main reason for most of the chronic diseases that we're seeing today? So I'll give you a quick bullet point summary of the state of the evidence on a variety of on obesity, I would say that the evidence is 10 out of 10, iron clad lock, that if you took dietary carbohydrate, out of the American pet food ecosystem, you would not have a significant obesity problem among pets. This study has never been done. This is Dan Schulof’s personal belief. But I would bet my house on it, you cannot make a dog get and stay obese. Unless you feed it carbohydrates. You could in a laboratory setting, stuff it, force feed it like a goose being made for Foie gras or whatever, with enough calories of fat and protein that you can make it that way. But its appetite and its natural homeostatic regulation is such that it will never just maintain that state. It will not consistently overeat. Whereas carbohydrates are quite different. So yes, I believe the carbohydrate at the 10 out of 10 Evidence couldn't be more clear is the fundamental cause of obesity. other chronic diseases that are common among pets, there are three where there's at least some degree of evidence. They are number one, diabetes, and other kinds of metabolic disorders like that. Right now, the standard of care obscenely, the standard of care for a dog that shows up with diabetes in the veterinary office is a prescription only pet food product, costs a fortune, and is kibble and it's about 40% digestible carbohydrate. And if you're anybody that knows anything about diabetes, and how it works, that should make your jaw fall open. Because what it means is that 40% of the calories that animal is taking in are going to enter the bloodstream as sugar, like carbohydrate during digestion doesn't matter if the complex carbohydrates, simple carbohydrate, any kind of digestible carbohydrate, during digestion becomes the exact same thing. Glucose, it's the one thing that a dog with diabetes cannot dispose of in its body appropriately, what diabetes is, is an inability to manage blood sugar spikes. And the one thing dietarily That causes the most pronounced blood sugar spikes is a big bolus of dietary carbohydrate. And yet, the prescription the standard of care in veterinary offices is feed this product that's 40% digestible carbohydrate. And even though the literature couldn't be more clear, couldn't be more of a, you know, an ironclad lock, either, that if you take all the carbohydrate out of the animal's diet, it’s postprandial blood sugar comes way down, and so it's need to have exogenous insulin shots goes way down as well. That's diabetes. There are others where it's like more tangential, there's promising evidence, but it's not. It would be irresponsible for me to say it's anything like those two, and those are like osteoarthritis, which has been found basically to track with obesity reasonably well. And I think stands to reason that if you get rid of the obesity problem, you get rid of the chronic osteoarthritis epidemic as well and kind of, you know, the one that gets a lot of attention, but the record is not as well developed yet is cancer. You know, if there’s any epidemic of non communicable diseases in the United States pet population that's worse than obesity, cancer, you know, you're talking about something like a quarter of the dogs in the country, maybe more depends who you ask, will get that disease in their lifetime. And there are communities of folks and scientific folks who believe that essentially what's going on there is dietary carbohydrate, becomes glucose during digestion. And glucose is the preferred source of fast growing tumors, that's what they feed on. If you take if you've ever had the, and you probably have had the unfortunate experience of bringing your dog into the vet, and having what's called a PET scan, performed on the animal to try to locate any tumors that might be in it’s body. What that process is, is basically what a PET scan is, is a machine looking for parts of your dog's body that are burning glucose for energy at a higher rate than the stuff around it, it shows up the colors up on the image, if you see like a specific spot that's burning a lot of glucose, that's what a PET scan is, and the tumors light up. Because tumors like glucose, they grow really fast. And glucose is like their rocket fuel. And so just like in the same way, that if you want to make sure that your diabetic dog doesn't have huge blood sugar spikes after a meal, you want to if you want to reduce the amount of glucose that's available for a tumor, you can just cut down the amount of carbohydrates in the diet, that stuff is a very coherent theory. And there are plenty of folks who are trying to develop the record around it. But it would not be responsible to say at this point, we know with clarity, that if you take the carbohydrate out of a dog's diet, it's cancer risk goes down. That's not something that record shows, but there's some degree of you for a problem that has we've struggled to come up with good explanations for it. If nothing else, it's like a very compelling place to be spending our scientific resources at this point. Sure. Well, Daniel, as we're coming to a close, if these dogs food companies that are including such high amounts of carbohydrates in their products know about this, what is the end game? Is it just for profit, and using cheaper materials and ingredients in their products? Yeah, so basically, the reasons that carbohydrate is so why I always say carbohydrates are the backbone of the US pet food ecosystem. And the reason that it is human food. Yes, that's right. That's right, it is quite so. But it's like kind of two main things, at least in the pet food world, but largely in the human world too. the first is cost. And it's the most important one, as somebody that now runs a pet food company, I can tell you with first hand knowledge that a calorie of meat based protein costs, something like at least something like eight to 10 times as much as the calorie of agriculture based carbohydrate, a calorie from corn, say. And so if you are to take a product that is 40% digestible carbohydrate, and turn that into 40%, if you're gonna swap out all that carbohydrate for meat based protein, the cost for the producer to make that product is going to skyrocket to the point that doesn't it just cut into their profit margins, it completely blows up the business model. You can't do it like if, you know, I'm not going to pick your favorite legacy kibble company, if they're going to try to roll out a zero carbohydrate product, they're going to price it at $400 a bag to make the same margin that they're making right now. So obviously a big part of the system for that reason. And then secondly, for a really long time. Those that make pet food thought you needed to use carbohydrates to actually make kibble like if you you know, there are a lot of people these days, I'm kind of one of them that thinks that it's bad for humans to eat carbohydrate too and if you're somebody that thinks that way, but you still think that carbohydrate rich foods taste really good. One thing that you tried to do is you try to make zero or low carbohydrate versions. And if you've ever tried or if anybody listening has ever tried to make a loaf of very low carbohydrate bread, like if you try to make bread without flour, you'll know that it doesn't work it like the dough falls apart is part of what carbohydrate does is this functional thing in food products when you heat it up, it gelatinizes and holds all the ingredients together and it makes dough into you know, biscuits or bagels or whatever. And kind of like in a very basic level, like kibble was made basically the same way you mix all these ingredients together and heat them up and then you suck out the water You get little nuggets. And the nuggets are held together by carbohydrates. And so for a long time, if you take the unfortunate nutritional science out of the equation, if you take the chronic diseases out of the equation, it's a fantastic innovation, it makes this great shelf stable product, very convenient, provides the dog with the nutrition that it needs to prevent development of deficiencies. And so for a long time, it was like this is, this is a great thing, and the whole pet food industry is built around it. And then later, it became clear that oops, this stuff is actually bad for the health of these animals. And at that point, you're already dealing with this multibillion dollar industry. And rather than trying to react to that nutritional science reality, they tried to go through this prolonged process of trying to fight repress secure the truth about it. And that's, that's the status of things right now. It's like, we're in an era that sort of like smoking in like the 1950s. Like, there's this big body of research that's like, smoking looks like it gives you lung cancer, but the general public that hasn't gotten fully through to them yet. And the reason for that is because the folks who stand to lose billions of dollars if they do become aware of that are fighting, and you got basically the exact same thing happening in the pet food world too. I think, as you said, I think more and more pet parents want to be better educated, and want to be the best advocate for their animal. So I want to thank you, first of all, for your book, I know that we just scratched the surface on this interview. So I will put the link to the book in the show notes. And as we are wrapping up, Daniel, I know that you also started a nonprofit, the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council, can you briefly just tell us how that came to be? Absolutely. Thank you for giving me a chance to do that, because it's my kind of newest thing, and I'm really excited about it. So one of the ways that the pet food industry is doing a really good job about obscuring the truth about the dietary consequences of carbohydrate for companion animals, is the nutritional science research community is driven entirely by funding from pet food companies. Unlike in the human domain, there's no like National Institutes of Health that exists to provide funding for interesting, useful research. If you are a nutritional scientist working in the veterinary domain, you get your money from pet food period. That's it. Some of it comes from Legacy kibble companies. Some of it comes from alternative type upstart things, but all of it, with very few exceptions comes from the pet food industry. I think that is one of the that's a problem, right? No real statistics that you can imagine, that's going to result in some things that are really useful for pet owners not getting studied if they're not good for industry. And so the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council was conceptualized to address that problem. And basically, the idea is that we solicit individual donations from members that are individual pet owners only accepting only small dollar donations, we don't accept a single dollar from any kind of organizational entity. So my company Keto Natural Pet Foods can't give a penny to it. And I as an individual can't give any more than you, Krista could give if you are so inclined. And what we do is we aggregate donations and use them to provide grants to nutritional science research that actually matters for pet food companies. We're brand new, just founded we debuted the thing on Giving Tuesday Thanksgiving of 2022. So we have yet to make our first grant. There's a ton more information about us on our website, which is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council. I bet your listeners have all sorts of questions about it. And I encourage them to go check out the site because there's all kinds of helpful info about how our governance works to prevent conflicts of interest, including the ones that I have from influencing our main operations, and just kind of all the other nuts and bolts of it. But yeah, I'm super excited about it. It's, you know, we don't know if it'll be successful at this point. But if it if we can make it successful if it can perform the function that it's supposed to perform, which is to take on a reasonable bit of money from the 70 plus million dog owners in the United States, every year, that we can sit at the table to fund to provide funding for research that really matters that it's not just good for the industry. Thank you for trying to make a difference. It's so important. Daniel, we are out of time. But where can everybody find more information about you, Keto Natural Pet Foods and the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council? The only one that I'll be specific about is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council/org. That's the website for that organization. It’s too infant for it to do really well in Google If that makes sense, like if you research pet food, nonprofit, you might not find it. Everything else I'm about the easiest doggy person to find on the internet. Just look for me pet food, you know, Daniel Schulof. I'm active on Twitter and other social media platforms. My book is on Amazon and all the other places, Keto Natural Pet Foods is easy to find. Shouldn't be too hard for anybody that's made it this far. And I'll give all the links in the show notes. And Daniel, thank you for all of your work. Thank you, Krista. Yeah, thank you for giving me the chance to talk. And hopefully, everybody learned something new. And again, there's so much more to learn the science is out there. So do your homework, everybody. And Daniel. Thanks again for your time today. You're welcome. Thank you, Krista. It's been my pleasure. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or

Hey there this is Krista with Episode #172 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've tried on my dog Winston and that I know, like and trust. And these products will also help your dog to thrive. So just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life.? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well. It's filled with some very important information for you and your dog. While we humans breathe in and breathe out the same way, our dogs breathe in through their nostrils and then out through their slits that are found on the sides of their noses. And this circulates air so that your pup is always bringing in new smells. And breeds like bloodhounds also have the advantage of floppy ears. And that pushes up new smells. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. As an animal lover her entire life, Alex Roberts mission is to help every pet live their longest, happiest lives. She has been using holistic remedies on wildlife and pets since she was a young child, and now has 18 years of professional experience in the pet industry. After receiving her Clinical Pet Nutritionist certification, she started Healing Bay Pet Nutrition LLC to dive deeper into helping more pets benefit from the world of holistic modalities, especially those suffering from chronic disease. Well, hello dog lovers, we are going to learn something new today as I chat with Alex Roberts about the 5 things you don't know about canine kidney disease. Alex, welcome to the show! Hi, Krista. Thank you, I'm really excited to finally be here. I know we set this up so long ago, and the day is here. And I can't wait to learn from you. So before we get started, I'm going to ask you to please introduce yourself. And tell us why you wanted to cover this topic of kidney disease on the show today. Yeah, so my name is Alex Roberts. And I of course am a lifetime animal lover of all creatures great and small. But I became a certified clinical pet nutritionist a few years ago, and I started a business doing one on one consults with pet owners. And due to the nature of being a nutritionist, I see so much chronic disease. And it's chronic disease that from a holistic perspective is very preventable in a lot of ways. And many cases, from a conventional perspective, not necessarily. But with that holistic scope and through a holistic lens, we can do so much more to help these patients in chronic disease states. So that's why I'm here today is hopefully to help some more dogs and maybe cats because a lot of things are pretty similar across the board with the two. Hopefully help them live longer, healthier, happier lives. That's what it's all about. Well, let's get into this. Kidney Failure is really an irreversible process. And studies show that one in 10 dogs suffer from kidney disease. So is it true that an early diagnosis can help your dog survive longer? Can Kidney Disease be Cured? Yes, I definitely agree with that statistic. It's something that I do see, I think, a disproportionately high amount of these cases. Again, just sort of because of the nature of being a nutritionist, I get all these chronic disease cases versus being a veterinary clinician, you're seeing chronic disease and acute disease. So like you know, viral infections, things like that. Those are most common things that would fall into the acute disease category, or injuries and as a nutritionist, I'm not seeing those things. So across the board, that you know, about 10% of dogs are diagnosed with renal failure or chronic kidney disease at some point in their life is true and for me personally it is a massive amount of my patients. It's around like 40% of my personal patients have renal failure or chronic kidney disease, which is it's horrible because it's not reversible. But I want owners, caretakers, pet lovers to know that there are things you can do. It's not like this totally hopeless, you know, black hole that your, your fur baby has been diagnosed with. There's a lot more you can do. It's just that we can't completely reverse it, unfortunately. Right. Well, let's dumb it down. For those of us, you know, we have kidneys too. But can you tell us what is the function of the kidneys? What is the Function of the Kidneys? Yeah, so the kidneys are our major filters in our bodies. And generally, when I use the word, our I'm referring to mammals. So dogs, cats, humans, elephants, mice, horses, we do have a lot in common, but we all have a lot of differences we have a lot in common too. And our kidneys all work the same way. So they're filtering out all of the… well, I shouldn’t say all of… because almost all of our organs have their own waste products that they filter out. But the kidneys are our major waste product filtering device, so and they're able to rid our body of these harmful metabolic wastes through urine, which is a sort of beautifully simple mechanism compared to some other metabolic processes in the body. But definitely don't have time to get into that today. That could be like, many hours long. Conversation, even though it's relatively simple And I think I read, which is not good that typically, kidney disease goes undetected until the organs are functioning at only 33 to 25% of their capacity. How is Kidney Failure Diagnosed? I'm glad you brought that up. It's something I wanted to mention. So it's true. And it's something that even though so this is kind of weird. So even though we know that to be true, so the blood and urine markers that we're looking for when diagnosing kidney disease, they're not going to flag kidney disease until they're down to that sort of 1/3 or less function. We simultaneously once we've diagnosed it, have no way of knowing what percentage of function is actually left. That's a little bit of a weird paradox, which isn't helpful doesn't make things any better. But there are there are really only a few markers that we're looking at in the blood, urine gets a little more complicated because there are markers in the urine that can be indicative of a lot of other things. But normally, your vet will run a blood test first and if they suspect kidney disease, then they'll do a urinalysis to verify that those markers they’re looking for are there. But in the blood traditionally, we look at BUN, which is blood urea nitrogen and creatinine, which if anyone out there is a workout enthusiast, they might take a creatine supplement, and creatinine is then the waste product after your body metabolizes creatine, and some ends up in the urine, some in the blood. So we're looking for basically how much creatine how much urea are in the blood. When those become excessively high. That was really traditionally our only way to say we're diagnosing this pet with renal failure, kidney disease. So recently, there is a new marker called SDMA. And it's nice because you look at SDMA, and if SDMA is over 14, which is this nice, cute little number, then you can say allegedly. Okay, we are in renal failure we are we have chronic kidney disease. The generally accepted consensus is that this new SDMA is the best marker that we have for more accurately diagnosing kidney disease. But it's again, it's far from perfect, and it's something that honestly, we just don't know enough about. There are vets that are like, I don't trust this whole SDMA thing. I'm putting, you know, no faith in it whatsoever. Because it is relatively new, and although we think it's the best marker we have, we don't even really know how accurate it is. Yeah, even diagnosing kidney disease is really far from straightforward. Right. But I guess this goes to show that, you know, annual physicals, at least for your dog, and at least the annual blood panels along with that gives you a blueprint or a base of how to read the values in the future. So you have something to compare, correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. 100%. Any, vet out there will, you know, no matter how conventional they are, will tell you, you know, they'd love to get a blood sample from your dog every year, even if they're totally healthy. And it's extremely important as they get older, I would argue the older they get, the more important it is, again, no matter how healthy they seem, specifically because of their kidneys. But on top of that, at any age, you really should ideally be getting blood every year, again, no matter how healthy they seem. Because although within a given for every marker within that blood test, there's a given set of values, a low end and a high end. That is averaged throughout a certain population of dogs that was originally you know, taken to establish those values. Your dog could have a normal for them that's above or below. And that goes for anything. So that to me, by itself is a great reason, just to as soon as you get your dog get blood done, and just keep doing it at least once a year. There's no such thing as too much honestly, but once a year, just a nice convenient time when they go into their physical. Okay, so are there any outward signs that your dog is experiencing kidney disease? Signs of Kidney Disease? Yeah, the most simple is when they start drinking a lot and start urinating a lot, which can also be a sign that the other big thing that that's a sign of is diabetes, it can be a sign of a bunch of other things too. But honestly, that sort of a big one to look out for. And it's a little tricky because especially if it's a multi dog household, it can be hard to tell how much your dog is drinking. But that really just goes back on how important it is to keep keep up on the bloodwork and you know again, the older they get, the more important it is to keep up on their bloodwork. Okay, well all good information. And we are going to take a quick sponsor break. But when we come back, Alex promised in the beginning that there are things we can do holistically to help treat canine kidney disease, also known as renal failure. And we're gonna get into that so everybody hold tight, we will be right back. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? And we're back with Alex Roberts and Alex, you are getting into the nitty gritty now what everybody wants to hear about the holistic approaches to treating canine kidney disease. So you mentioned that about 40% of your clients are experiencing kidney disease. Why do you think that's on the rise? What is happening to our dogs? Why Is Canine Kidney Disease on the Rise? Yeah. So the conventional wisdom is, honestly, the conventional wisdom in this case is there really is no good answer. But the holistic wisdom is that there are very clear answers. And unfortunately, a multitude of causes. So the epidemic as some like to refer to it as of kibble. And just mass processed food being fed seems to be a there seems to be a really big causative link there. And I do have a specific definition for that, as well. On top of those two really big, standalone factors, you have a ton of other environmental factors. And technically vaccinations and food are both environmental factors. But flea and tick prevention chemicals, heartworm chemicals, what is in your water supply, house chemicals, lawn chemicals, such just so many factors, laundry chemicals, it's just everything, you know, all these little things that we're starting to see more issues in humans that we're linking to these chemicals that have come up in our lives. And unfortunately, our pets are suffering the same way. But I want to I want to go back to my statement on over vaccinating and specifically what I mean by that. So I personally believe that vaccines should you should have these individual tailored approach to what vaccines are or are not appropriate for your individual pets in your individual area for your individual lifestyle, because those are all things that factor into whether or not vaccine do or don’t make sense for your pet. And we're not going to get into the whole vaccine thing. Because yet again, that can be its own conversation. But I just want to make it clear that I you know, I don't believe that no vaccines is the answer. But unfortunately, in vet school, we're taught the standard operating procedure for vaccines, which is based on the vaccine company’s recommendation. And it's really not based on good science, all of the good science tells us that we do not need any vaccine every year. But the other unfortunate reality is that that's how, as veterinarians, we make most of our money. So just something to keep in mind. Thank you. So if I were to simplify all of this, you know, you mentioned the kidneys are really a filter. And because we're living in environments that are so toxic, you know, you just went through the list. Kibble, over vaccinating, and all the environmental chemicals that our dogs live with, is it that the toxic load to the kidneys is just so overwhelming, especially as they're getting older, and therefore they're in that disease state. Is it that simple? Yeah, I honestly, I think that is the perfect way to try to simplify and sum it all up. 100%. That's perfect. And with that toxic load, and you know, as we get older, all of our organs just need to work a little harder, but the kidneys, in all mammals, again, they just tend to naturally wear out with age, you know, really old humans no matter how well they take care of themselves, their whole lives. And their kidneys tend to wear out. It's just one of those things that eventually happens. And some pets now are living to extremely old age. Unfortunately, average age is decreasing, but you have some that are living longer and that can you know, that certainly factors into the average as well when no matter how well they're cared for their whole lives. Kidneys just wear out is the unfortunate reality of being a living, breathing creature, with kidneys. Well, let's talk about how we can holistically approach a dog that has kidney disease? What are your recommendations to help support what kidney function they do have? How to Holistically Approach Canine Kidney Disease Yeah, so probably predictably, I'm gonna say the number one biggest one is food. And although I do say that with just about every chronic disease, honestly, any holistic or integrative veterinarian or clinician will agree with me, it's not just because I'm a nutritionist that I say this, I promise. It really is. It's the basis of everything. And the way I like to look at food, too, is, you know, not just because it's what fuels every process in our body. So of course, it's important, but it's the one really major determinant that we have complete control over when it comes to gene expression. So honestly, as far as I'm concerned, I believe every disease out there, especially all of the common chronic ones, have some form of genetic component. And there's nothing we can do to change our pet’s pedigree, genes, family history, right? We have no control over that. But what we eat, does control how many of our genes express proteins, which is just how all the cells in our bodies function with pretty much everything. So food is just so so important. I don't even know how to drive home how important it is. But that's, that's my, that's my way that I hope makes sense to someone at least, to really drive that home at home. So what does that look like? Then? You know, what food do I feed an animal that kidneys are struggling? So number one, and conventional and holistic veterinarians will both tell you this. So this is a good one. It's not super confusing. Unlike everything else out there is moisture is super important. Moisture is the number one most important factor. And so along with that, you know, kibble is not only extremely low moisture content, but it is so dry that when your pet eats it, it literally sucks moisture out of their body just in order to be able to digest it. So I think kibble has a place. You know, I think everyone needs to do what they can for their pet, I do not believe in you not being able to buy groceries for the week to feed your pet. Think that your your pet is lucky to have you have someone that loves them and feeds them. So you know, everyone needs to do what they can do within reason for them. But if at all possible, this is really, really a disease that we want to avoid kibble. Canned commercial food is even a lot better. However, to be honest, I'm not a huge fan, because it can be really expensive. There are actually a lot of better food options out there that are less expensive than a canned food. So on top of all of that, your veterinarian will often supply you with some subcutaneous fluids that you can do at home. And it sounds really scary. But most animals do really well with it, and your vet will go over how to administer them with you. It's not as scary as it sounds, and it's totally worth it. And if it's not something your vet mentioned, ask them about it. Because what I found is a lot of times vets won't bring it up unless the pet is in really advanced renal failure. So I recommend all my clients after but about it if that hasn't already brought it up to them because I've seen it make a really big difference. Good point. Yep. For subcutaneous so you know, we're not talking IV where you know, have to hunt down a vein on your animal, blood everywhere. Like there's no blood. It's a tiny little skinny poke, like between their shoulder blades. And it's a lot of people just think like, oh, that sounds so scary. I could never do that. But then once your vet shows you how to do it. It really is like, oh, okay, I can handle that. I've done it. So yes, I agree. We have to wrap up shortly. So I wanted you to have a chance to tell us more about optimal diet. What should it include and what should it not? So the next big one after moisture is protein. And this is really confusing because there's so much contradicting information out there. If you have a conventional veterinarian, normally, they will tell you, you need to decrease protein in the diet. However, there's actually zero, good science, zero data that supports lower protein, helping the kidneys at all. But what we do believe to be really important is the quality of the protein. So again, unfortunately, I feel like I'm bashing processed food this whole time. And you know, again, it's not ideal, but gotta do what you can do, the more heavily processed the food is. So canned food, and kibble are really at the top of the most processed list. With the poor quality, the protein normally is going into it. But no matter what the quality originally was, the more it is heated, the less bioavailable it becomes, which basically means as far as the body is concerned, it's poor quality protein. So the less processed the protein is, the better. So in a perfect world, best case scenario is you make a homemade diet tailored to your individual critter. And you know, with all of the perfect balance everything to make their kidneys happy. That's not realistic for a lot of people. And I get that some of my favorite options going with a commercial food, Steve’s Real Food (use code WOL 20 for 20% off) is a frozen, actually they make a freeze dried as well. But freeze dried, it's always going to be dry. So unless you're adding moisture back in, I do recommend frozen. It's a frozen raw commercial diet, but is a really nice balance of everything. There are a bunch of other brands I like too. Steve's is really good. Honestly, it's a good bang for your buck, a great price per pound. And it's just a really nice balance of nutrients, specifically for animals in renal failure. What about supplements? Should we adding anything? So there are definitely some things to add. One thing you do want to watch out for, and this is something that even conventional vets will often say is you want decreased phosphorus. And this is something that depends on the individual patient. This isn't necessarily true for every patient in renal failure. But the best way to do that when at least we're thinking of what supplements to add, or maybe you are homemaking food, you don't want to add bone to the diet or bone meal to the diet. But instead you can add egg shell. And long story short that is a source of calcium with minimal phosphorus. So reading labels for bone really and making sure they don't have a bunch of bone or bone meal is important with any supplements. And that one is really specific to kidney disease. I just want to let people know, in healthy animals, I'm a big fan of bone is really specifically in this case that I recommend that but some other supplements to add. So number one is a probiotic, I've seen some supplements on the market that I've had some vets recommend that are called like dialysis in a bottle or something. And it's literally probiotics and it's like two strains of bacteria. Like oh, that's quite the quite the claim you're making there. Probiotics are really, really important for so many reasons. And along with a probiotic. So having the actual live bacteria in there. You do want to have a prebiotic ruscoe oligo saccharides to be sort of the best option, but as long as there's some kind of probiotic, some kind of fiber in there. Normally it makes it much more available in the digestive tract. And a bonus is adding a digestive enzyme along with the probiotic and prebiotic that's like your your perfect world if you get that trifecta. So another another one that I can recommend just across the board is some form of glandular or freeze dried kidney. So we feed kidneys to support the kidneys, very traditional Chinese medicine approach to things and there have been studies done on it over the years. Not a ton of great science has gone into it honestly. Some studies have shown that it's really helped Some studies have shown that it just doesn't do anything. But there's nothing out there to show that it could hurt. So it's like a why not. And honestly, it's something that I personally have had a lot of success with. And it's not terribly expensive. So it's just like, it can't hurt. I've had really good luck with it, and it doesn't cost a ton of money. So it's on the top of my recommendation list. Next one, that is again, just blanket recommendation this, this goes for anyone is some kind of fish oil. I really like recommending a krill oil, probably the most widely “available” fish oils are either salmon or Pollock oil. The only reason I don't love those as much is because they're big, predatory fish. So they end up with biomagnification of contaminants in their tissues, which means basically, by the time you are consuming the oil from that fish, you're getting more heavy metals and other yucky things that you don't want to be consuming. Whereas if you're consuming krill at the bottom of the food chain, you're getting minimal to none of those contaminants. So tends to be a little bit more expensive, but you need less of it as well. So, okay, kind of balances itself out. And there are lots of good brands out there. I don't really have you know, one brand that's like my favorite or anything. So do your research. Well, Alex, we are already past our time. So I know you're just going to mention a few herbs, if you could mention those. And then yeah, we'll talk about an offer that you're making. Herbs that Can Help Okay, so my last little tidbit, these are a little bit more individualized, but dandelions, specifically dandelion leaf, Hawthorn herb, astragalus, and marshmallow herbs can all be really helpful. But it does depend a little bit on the individual patient, but none are going to hurt anyone, none hurt to try. All right. Oh, my gosh, this is such good information. Well, Alex, as we're wrapping up, you were telling me that you are putting a course together that should hopefully be out by the time that this episode releases. Can you tell us about the offer that you're making? OFFER Yeah, so I am diligently trying to get this course completely finished. By the time this is out, and if it's not quite 100% Finished. By the time this is out. I am enabling an email, sign up so that you're notified as soon as it is out. And that’s on my website, I'm sure will be attached to this. But I am going to offer 20% off of that course to all of your fabulous listeners. And what is the course about.? So this course is going to be a individualized deeper dive into kidney disease. Like I said, it's just something I see so much of it's something that I really see. See a need for even though it is it's more of a niche. It's not something that applies to everyone, but I am specifically keeping in mind, pet caregivers and lovers that don't have an animal that currently is in renal failure, you know, so I'm keeping in mind the prevention side as well. So this is something that benefits everyone, even if you don't have you know, even if you have a young healthy animal, there's still going to be really good information in here for you because unfortunately, it's such a common disease. I'm glad that you're tackling this. So if you go to Alex's website https://www.healingbaypet.com/ and sign up and just mention the show, she's going to give a 20% discount off of this amazing course. So as we leave here today, Alex, where can everyone find out more information about you and your company Healing Bay Pet Nutrition? Yeah, so my website is the best place to go. I don't think I mentioned that during the podcast, but I am a full time veterinary student, so any references made to veterinarian just because I do know firsthand I am in those shoes as well. Due to that consuming my entire life right now. I am atrocious at keeping up on social media but I do have an Instagram I have a Facebook and I have a LinkedIn. Instagram is the only thing that I like remotely kept up on and it's still far from it. But my instagram handle is @healingbay.pet.nutrition. All right, and Social media: IG: https://www.instagram.com/healingbay.pet.nutrition/ FB: https://www.facebook.com/HealingBayPetNutrition/ LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/alex-eaton-9457701b9/ All right, and all of this, the URL and the social media links are all going to be in the show notes for everybody. And since we're out of time, I am going to say thank you, Alex, for taking this on. Unfortunately, we're seeing a rise as you said, it's an epidemic of kidney disease and kidney failure. But it's all about educating people. And that's what you're doing. And we're very grateful. Oh, good. I really hope that there's some some animals that can benefit from this today. Absolutely. Well, thank you, everybody. Check out https://www.healingbaypet.com/ for more information. Thanks, Alex. Thank you. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #171 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. You know when you're on the couch and your dog stretches out next to you and lets out a long sigh? Well, that means that they're happy. They're soft vocalizations such as sighs and maybe some low groans, those are signs of contentment in dogs. So your dog snuggling up and sighing doesn't mean they're bored. It actually means that they feel safe and comfortable right by your side. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Hello dog lovers and thanks for tuning in to a another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. Today we have the pleasure of learning from Caragh Reilly, and she is going to chat with us about It's Not Just a Spa Day, but how therapeutic massage can actually benefit the health and mobility of dogs at every life stage. Caragh, thank you so much for being with us today. So appreciate it. I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me. Well, I want to first ask if you can please introduce yourself and share with us what got you interested in canine massage in the first place? Absolutely. So I've been doing canine massage for just about 5-5 1/2 years now. I was in a corporate career for much of my life and felt that something was missing. I adopted my dog after about 10 years ago and it kind of reignited my passion for all things dog. And I decided that it was time to make a bit of a life change and find a career that felt a little bit more fulfilling and rewarding for me. So I took a little bit of a break from my corporate life, started taking some classes and found canine massage and just absolutely fell in love with the work. And I'm sure Oscar is totally in love with you doing the massage. He's not too disappointed. Oh, that's so cool. Well, why don't we break it down? What exactly is canine massage because as we alluded to in the title, you know, we think of going to the spa. And there's different techniques, you know, it could be more fluff or more hardcore, like, you know, Swedish or Rolfing. So what exactly does that mean, when we talk about massage for our dogs? What is Canine Massage? Yeah, I mean, it can mean a lot of different things. And really, there's applications for massage for every dog at every stage of their life. But you know, while certainly massage has tremendous relaxation benefits, just like we know, when we go to the spa, I think sometimes we overlook the clinical benefits of bodywork, and how it really impacts the body not just emotionally in terms of triggering a relaxation state, but also physiologically helping address pain, helping address tension, and kind of providing benefits throughout the body and to every body system. I think it's a pretty incredible modality because it does impact every body system, and really can be used for almost any dog based on whatever they're going through both emotionally and physically. Okay, and we're talking just about muscles, so soft tissue, right? Soft tissue, I mean, but you know, that also includes muscle, connective tissue, like fascia in the body. So you know, all of that carries tension and is impacted by you know, whatever is going on in the body and from your health condition. So it's not just tension relief, but it increases circulation and has tons of other benefits, which I'm sure we'll get to talking about during this during this talk. Well, I think we're there. So let's unpack some of those benefits. Benefits of Canine Massage Awesome. Yeah, I think that a lot of people when they think about massage for their dog, they probably naturally go towards addressing, you know, arthritis and stiffness for dogs that are seniors. And certainly a lot of the clients are just that and certainly has wonderful benefits for geriatric care. But I think what's so exciting about this work is that it can offer so much variety if you choose to work with all sorts of different types of dogs. So I like to share just how it can affect dogs at different life stages to give some examples. So, I have a couple of clients that are actually puppies. I think the youngest one that I'm working with now is six months. And how massage can really help is to start acclimating dogs to intentful touch, which is essentially massage. Massage is touch with intent to get them used to handling. And it's a great way to set them up for a lifetime of success with handling at, you know, professionals like groomers or the vet. I've also worked with dogs that are skittish or weary of touch. So by introducing positive touch early, you can help socialize the dog. And then I also really work with a lot of young dogs where they're exuberant and active and throwing their bodies around and running around at the dog park. And as you can imagine, when you're overactive like that your body can hurt, even if you're young and agile, and healthy. And so by really interceding early with body work, you can prevent injury down the road, and keep them moving and feeling their best as they grow. I never thought about it that way. But that really makes a lot of sense. Yeah, and I mean, certainly, so that's just one example is puppies, but as they transition into adulthood, I do a lot of preventative care where clients have me work with their dog just to really keep them moving and feeling their best and to prevent kind of health issues and tensions from becoming bigger problems down the road. And certainly, I'm involved a lot with dogs who are undergoing injuries or have gone through surgeries, that have a lot of orthopedic conditions that dogs are prone to such as tearing CCLs or suffering from luxating patellas, where their kneecap pops out of the groove. And these are all issues which are either dogs are either going through rehab for or have been surgically corrected. And massage and bodywork is a tremendous modality for helping them heal through that process. Well, you talk about healing, is it because through massage, you are actually improving the blood flow? Is that why it helps? Does it Improve Blood Flow? It's a great question. It's one of the primary benefits is increasing circulation. So what keeps soft tissue healthy in the body is by having blood flow come in because it brings oxygen. Tissue needs oxygen to be healthy. So when we increase and boost that circulation in the body, we're helping bring in that great oxygen to the tissues and also flushing waste products out of the tissues as well. So it is definitely a primary benefit. And one of the key physiological reasons to consider massage. That makes sense. And what is massage doing to actually reduce pain? Is there an anti inflammatory effect? Does It Reduce Pain? Yeah, certainly by you know, as I said, bringing in some increased circulation, you're bringing nutrients into the tissue, which can help tissue heal. You're flushing, waste and byproducts out. But it's also really impacting the nervous system, and the pain signals that are going into the brain. So by stimulating the nervous system, you're triggering something in the body, that's called a parasympathetic response, which is the body’s state of rest and relaxation. And you're also not to totally geek out on you, but you're bringing a lot of tactile stimuli to the brain. And there are some theories that, you know, if your brain is registering some of those tactile stimulations, they're not getting the pain signals as loudly in the brain. So it helps diffuse that sensation of pain. So you're kind of addressing pain on two fronts, one on the nervous system and just kind of tricking your brain to say, hey, this feels good, and it's not as painful. But then you're also physiologically addressing some of the pain by you know, helping the tissue heal. I never thought about that. That makes sense, though. And you mentioned you know that it helps to relax a dog and alleviate their stress. Does that mean that massage would actually lower their blood pressure as well? Lower Blood Pressure? Yeah, absolutely. Blood pressure, it definitely has a nice stress reducing anti anxiety effect. It's another group of dogs that really can benefit from bodywork. I've worked with dogs in the shelter environment where they can be a little bit of stressful or dogs that suffer some anxiety conditions. And giving a dog a break through massage to let the brain kind of chill out for lack of a better word. Gives some comfort and just lowers stress. And then you know all those health effects that when you lower your stress, reduce your heart rate, reduce your blood pressure, calm your breathing. It provides all that emotional benefit. Well, when I looked into this before, you know, I know you and I talked quite a long time ago to schedule this interview. I didn't know that massage can actually help improve the immune system. How does that work? It Can Improve the Immune System? Yeah, well, massage, there are some specific techniques that you can do specifically a manual lymphatic drainage is a great technique for dogs that need some immune boosting but the lymphatic system in the body is basically the immune system in the body and it's a one way system that sometimes can get a little bit clogged up. And so by manipulating lymph throughout the system and helping the flow improve, you are actually boosting the immune system. It's kind of a lesser known technique. But it's really, really a cool one. It's also a great way to clear excess swelling after an injury or surgery. So definitely encourage people to look into lymphatic massage, not just for their dogs, but for themselves, because I think a lot of people don't know about it, and it's highly effective in the healing process. And what about massage, improving digestion? Yeah, I mean, just by improving, you know, circulation, again, you're stimulating the digestive tract. Certainly, there are techniques you can do to kind of help with the overall flow along the digestive tract, which can be helpful. I've worked with dogs say with irritable bowel disorder, or just kind of some GI stress, and just kind of help overall keep things moving. And, you know, can help, again, with some pain relief in that system by stimulating the digestive tract, and then when you're working the abdomen from other areas. It goes way further than just what you think of massage. It's just topical, moving of the skin and maybe getting into the muscle. Yeah, it really does. I mean, there's virtually no dog that could not benefit. I mean, certainly, there are some situations where massage is not appropriate. For example, if your dog has an active infection that they're fighting or a fever, or that they have, you know, a severe kind of nerve pain syndrome, where you know, you could be causing pain, but I would say for you know, 98% of dogs, there is some way that massage could benefit them. Okay, well, we are going to take a quick sponsor break. And in the second part we are going to talk about, you know, would your dog be a candidate and to find out from you what exactly is involved, and the different techniques. So everybody hang on, we will be right back. I want to thank my friends at Green and Experience for being our monthly sponsor. Did you know that many of the most popular dog toys contain dyes, preservatives and chemical residues that are toxic?  Testing has also revealed heavy metals, along with hormone-disrupting chemicals, carcinogens and neurological poisons.  But now you can give your dog an organic, plant based, zero waste dog toy!  I want to introduce you to non-toxic fetch balls.  They look like tennis balls, but these are chemical free, wool free and synthetic free!  Made with organic bamboo fibers and organic natural rubber, these fetch balls are gentler on teeth, fun AND healthy!  Fetch your dog this non-toxic toy by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount.  A better dog toy plus you’re giving back because $1 from each purchase is donated to the St. Hubert’s dog shelter in Madison, NJ.  Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. How awesome it that? Hello, everyone. Welcome back. We are speaking with Caragh Reilly and we are talking about canine massage. And I am learning so much. There's just so much more to it. So when we left for the break, Caragh, you were mentioning maybe some dogs that are not good candidates for massage. But pretty much most dogs would really benefit from it. So why don't you tell us about the different techniques? Because I think you mentioned there are different ones, especially you know, the lymphatic drainage that was really cool. What other techniques are there? Massage Techniques So you know, canine massage is really based in Swedish massage techniques just like it is in humans. So of the core kind of soft tissue work that we're doing. We're doing a technique called effleurage, which is long, sweeping strokes. We're doing a lot of compression techniques where we're kind of working into the muscle belly to spread the muscle fibers and bring increase the blood flow in there. We're also doing some work where we're maybe kneading the skin manipulating the skin doing what they call petrifies techniques. So we're we're working with the fascial tissue. Fascia is a connective tissue that covers everything in the body and really connects everything. So you can be working fascia in one area of the body and having an effect in another, another area. Again, another technique where if you haven't had fascial work done on yourself as a human, I definitely recommend you look into that, in addition to looking into it for your dog. Again, we're using all those basic Swedish techniques. But then for, you know, canine massage therapists that are certified in this work, we're also going into some advanced techniques that have deeper effects such as trigger point release, trigger points are very hyper irritable spots in the skin, which you can release, they can kind of cause deferred or active pain. I don't know if any of you are listening in have ever had a massage and they they're working or knot and your neck and you feel it all the way down your arm or up into your head. That's a trigger point that you have. And so you know, releasing those trigger points helps reduce reduce pain all over. We're often doing orthopedic friction work on tendons and ligaments to help with you know, tendons and ligaments healing, if there's injuries to those components of the body. I mentioned manual lymphatic drainage, which is excellent for immune boosting and for healing after injury, and surgery. And, you know, in general, we're just also providing just a very nice positive touch experience, I try not to underestimate the power simply of applying touch to dogs, because we can communicate so powerfully through touch. I think, you know, you think what happens, if you're grieving and say, What does someone instinctually do to provide comfort, it's giving you a hug, placing a hand on your shoulder, it doesn't have to be deep or intensive, but just even a gentle touch can communicate so well and provide comfort. So, you know, physical effects of massage aside, I think that massage is a tremendous way to improve, you know, bonds with dogs, and to help, you know, provide them comfort and a sense of well being. Yeah, absolutely. And I can imagine the sporting dogs would really benefit because they are doing some you know, I know I used to do agility with Winston. And dogs like that. Probably need it. For Sporting Dogs Sporting dogs are kind of like the elite athletes, right? And they are out there working their bodies really hard. So I would say what's great about you know, the sporting world is they were kind of ahead of the times and I think that you know, massage and bodywork is pretty commonplace. You know, if you trial, you'll often see massage therapists on site to help pre and post event to help dogs prime for their events, and then you know, help with their recovery. But yeah, even if you're just doing it for fun, you have to be cognizant of the fact that you're putting a strain on your dog's bodies and they may be prone to injury. So by kind of introducing some of this body work, you're helping to prevent potential injury and keeping them at the top of their game. Absolutely. And I know I've had guests on before talking about acupuncture, and they also mentioned acupressure. So, is acupressure actually considered a form of massage? What About Acupressure? Acupressure, there's a separate certification process. Many canine massage therapists are also trained and certified in applying acupressure. One thing that I think it's a great thing to note is that what pet professionals can practice in terms of massage, acupuncture, acupressure does vary by state. There are veterinary practice laws that are state by state which indicate if you must be a veterinary professional to implement some of these modalities. As a general rule, acupuncture with needles should be performed by a veterinarian. And sometimes in some states massage also needs to be done under a veterinary professional’s guidance or within a veterinary practice. And Acupressure is one of those other things. For example, I'm here in Illinois, and I can provide therapeutic massage outside of the veterinary world but I do not practice acupressure just to align with Illinois veterinary practice laws. I didn't know that interesting. Okay. Well, it's actually comforting to know there is regulation out there for for this. So thanks for pointing that out. Is It a Regulated Industry? There is regulation. It's not always enforced. You know, I think that yeah, it's one thing that I'd love to see since it's even getting into this field, the growth and the awareness of the need for better, more supervised training. Definitely recommend if you're looking for a therapist in your area, doing a little research to kind of understand the credentials that the massage therapists in your area have because it's not a regulated area. If anyone says they are a licensed massage therapist, be a little bit wary because there actually is no canine massage therapy license. The certification process, and if you are looking for kind of a great organization to find a reputable therapist, the National Board of Canine Animal Acupressure and Massage, NBCAAM is a great resource to find a practitioner that's gone through appropriate training, which includes a certain amount of training in anatomy and physiology, ethics, all the massage and that they've had a good deal of supervised hands on training under the purview of an instructor because some programs out there are claiming they're certifying people just with online training. And unfortunately, I think that's doing a bit of a disservice to the industry, because how can you learn a hands on trade without really good hands on training? So just something to be aware of, in your communities. You know, to kind of look into the training programs of any therapist, you engage. Great advice. Well, Caragh, I went to your website, and I love your website. It's, it's very well done. But one thing that stood out to me is something I learned earlier this year, that blew my mind that dogs don't have collarbones. Yeah. It's kind of my little trivia for new clients. That dogs’ front limbs are not skeletally attached to their body, they don't have a collarbone bone like we do. They have kind of a small cartilage piece. But I think that it's fascinating to know that about dog’s bodies, because it puts into perspective, how much strain they may be putting on their front limbs. Dogs actually also carry about 60% of their weight up front. So they're putting a lot of strain on their shoulders, elbows, wrists. And when you think of the fact that their limbs are not skeletally cemented to their body, but instead that's all attached by muscle and connective tissue. I think it's another great reason to think, wow, I think massage and bodywork is something that would help keep those joints moving their best, because we're taking some of that tension out when they're really bearing a quite a load. Yes. Just another reason. Well, I can go on all day about the reasons. Of course you could. Well, how long? Typically I know every dog is different. But how long do the effects of a massage session last? Typical Sessions Yeah, I mean, it depends on what the goal is. Usually, if you think about how we feel after a massage, you're feeling looser, or feeling less tense, you're feeling some reduced pain that typically lasts, you know, a couple of days to a week, it depends on the severity of the condition that you're going through. You know, so I think every dog is an individual, and it depends on when you're intervening, I guess in a dog, you know, pain cycle, and you know how severe some of the issues are that they're dealing with. So you know, it can be a short lived thing, or it can can last quite a bit, I would say that, you know, I have some dogs that I work with weekly. And then I have some dogs that really just are pretty good. And I see them once a month or once every other month because they're young and healthy, and they are generally moving fine. And when they start to get a little stiff, their owners bring me back in. Okay, and how long is an average session? It depends on how much touch the dog will tolerate. I personally offer sessions that are anywhere from 30 minutes to 60 minutes in length. Interestingly, even if a dog absolutely loves their massage time, they tend to max out. And every dog's tolerance of intentional touch varies. But you know, I have a couple of dogs that I always laugh, they're passed out sleeping and snoring and at minute 29 are up and ready to move on to the next activity for the day. And then of course, I have a couple of dogs that probably would lay there all day if I let them. But if more and more and more. But you know, just like with uss, you can overwork tissue, right. So just because we'd love this claim that we'd lay on the massage table all day, it's not necessarily the best thing for your body. So I tend to find that, you know, 30 to 60 minutes are great session lengths. Usually my smaller dogs are shorter sessions, some of my bigger dogs I take a little longer to work through their body, but it's really about reading the dogs cues. And I'm you know, it's a force free, you know, kind of profession. I’m never restraining the dog forcing them to enjoy the massage. I want it to be on their terms, because if they're stressed about it or being forced to stay in place, they're not reaping the benefits. So it's a conversation that I have with each of my dogs during every session and every session might be different. Like we're all different. Makes sense. So you of course do in person sessions with your clients, but you also do virtually and how does that work? Do you kind of teach the pet parents what to do? Great question. Yeah, I started offering this as in home for a variety of reasons. I mean, I could have worked in a facility and some people do that, but I like and I'm passionate about some dogs that are maybe a little bit more nervous, or if they're a senior, it's difficult to get into a facility. So I find that dogs are often comfortable in their own home. So it's great when I can do that in home. But during COVID, I had to be a little flexible. So my virtual sessions actually started at that time, when I wanted to provide a way to still bring some comfort and assistance to dogs when we were not able to or people were uncomfortable, you know, with continuing with an in home session. So in that situation, I do a zoom call. And I'm basically walking them through some basic techniques, and where to apply them on the body. Currently, I do offer that just for my own existing clients versus new clients, because I like to know what I've felt their body before and can provide better guidance over the phone. But a great part of, of this job is providing pet parent education. And I'm always willing to show pet parents how to perform some techniques to do in between our sessions, because, you know, my passion is to help your dog feel well. And it's not that I'm the only one that can provide that. And I want to keep dogs moving and feeling their best. So I do love showing pet parents some simple techniques they can do. And there are some great ones that that everyone can do at home to keep their dogs moving well, all the time. Right. Well, and I'm really impressed, Caragh that you, it seems like you are taking this a step further. Because you're also trained in advanced post surgical, edema management, tendon and ligament healing, and also oncology techniques. So that's quite impressive that you are so well rounded. Yeah, I mean, I think that it's when I first got into this work, it is one of the reasons why I became so passionate about it, it's, it's really fun to get to work with so many different types of dogs and build relationships with those dogs. And the variety of it, for me was great versus to say working in a rehab facility, which is tremendous, and they do wonderful. And most of them offer, you know, massage therapy in that setting. But I wanted to branch out and kind of have access to dogs undergoing different things. And I love that every day looks different. And every session looks different. And so, you know, I'm always trying to learn and additional techniques and just bring new services to these dogs so we can help them live long, healthy lives. That's what we're all about. Right? Absolutely. Yeah. Well, Caragh, as we are wrapping up here, where can everybody find out more information about you and your company Wellness and Wags? Yeah, I mean, I think my website is the primary spot. WellnessandWags.com. I'm also on Instagram and Facebook. Certainly if you want to see pictures of, you know, cute dogs that's probably on Instagram, because that's where I go for all my cute dog pics. But yeah, certainly would love for people to check me out. And I'm certainly always available for questions. I often get, you know, people reaching out to me about how do you train in this and things like that. So I'm always happy to answer questions if anyone's interested, direct message me or send me an email as well. Social media URLs Instagram: @wellnessandwags Facebook: @wellnessandwags Great. Well, I'll put all of this in the show notes so people can reach out. And is there anything that you'd like to leave us with today? I don't think so. I just you know, it's been really fun chatting with you and sharing, you know, this industry and this work with your audience, because I think it has so many incredible benefits. And so many people don't think about it for their drugs just like we forget to get massages for ourselves. So it was just great to share, be able to share how much I love this work and how much I've seen this work help dogs. And I hope that some of your audience will start considering it for their dogs and it would be great to, you know, hear how it's benefiting them. Oh, that's great. Well, hopefully everybody in the audience learned something new today. Go ahead and reach out to Caragh because you can tell how passionate she is about her craft. And Caragh, I just want to thank you for being here and for all that you do. Thank you. It's my pleasure. I want to again thank the team at Green and Experience for not only being our monthly sponsor, but for also creating the amazing plant-based fetch ball, a safe and natural toy that I feel good about giving to my dog Winston.  Check out their online store by going to Etsy.com and put GreenandExperience in the search bar. You can also find the direct link in the show notes. Choose from a set of two or three fetch balls and save by using the code WOL15 at checkout for a 15% discount. Also, if you purchase two or more fetch balls and yours is one of the first 100 orders, you will also receive a FREE encapsulated dog tag valued at $15. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello everyone. This is Krista with Episode #170 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? Well, these are products that I've tried on my dog Winston and that I know, like and trust. Products that will also help your dog to thrive. Just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ and check out the Trusted Brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? Who regulates dog toy safety? The simple answer is nobody. So buyer beware. You can't rely on a toy’s packaging to tell you if it's safe. And many of the most popular toys at pet stores contain dyes, preservatives, and chemical residues that are toxic. And testing has also revealed heavy metals along with hormone disrupting chemicals, carcinogens, and neurological poisons, all bad stuff. So before you buy your best friend a new toy, you'll want to be careful about what's used to make it. And if you pick up a dog toy and it has a chemical smell, or bright colors, you should avoid it along with those that contain fire retardants, or stain guards. Synthetic chews, you know the ones made of nylon or plastic flavoring. They could also contain questionable ingredients that your dog is better off not ingesting. So choose toys made of 100% natural rubber, organic cotton, or other eco friendly and contaminant free materials. Even if the toy is made in the US, be sure to check the manufacturer is using only high quality natural materials. So bottom line is do your homework and help protect your beloved pup from toxic toys. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr. Bonnie Bragdon has a unique background that combines veterinary medicine, practice management and industry innovation. She began her career in practice, serving for nearly 10 years as an associate veterinarian, owner-veterinarian and animal control director with clinical and leadership responsibilities. In addition to her responsibilities as a clinical practitioner, Dr. Bragdon excelled in practice operations management and enjoyed coaching and mentoring her team for maximum performance. She transitioned to executive leadership in the animal health industry, where she continued her career development learning new skills in sales, marketing, and teaching adults. She is the co-founder of the Independent Veterinary Practitioners Association, the first nonprofit association dedicated to uniting and empowering independently-owned and locally-operated veterinary clinics in continuing to shape the business and practice of animal health care. She also frequently serves as a subject matter expert for DailyPaws.com regarding pet health issues. Hello dog lovers! We are so glad that you tuned into yet another informative Wag Out Loud episode. And I am thrilled to be chatting with my guest, Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. And she is going to talk about the dog parent and veterinarian relationship. So Dr. Bonnie, thanks so much for being with us today. I'm really excited to be here, Krista. I love talking to dog parents. It's very exciting. I don't get enough of that these days. And so I'm glad to be here. Awesome. Well, before we get started, would you please introduce yourself and share why do you enjoy working with other veterinarians and helping them to excel in their roles? They have many roles, doctors, caregivers and practice owners. Yeah, so I’m Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. I practiced for about 10 years after veterinary school. So I've owned a practice, I actually also managed an animal control facility, I left that career as a practitioner and entered what we call an animal health industry. And I work with drug companies and animal practices. And I like that intersection where health, science and clinic management all comes together. And I think I have some unique insights that'll help dog owners and give a little bit of inside knowledge about how to navigate those relationships. The Strain that Vets, techs and other in vet practices are under Well, I am so excited. You're the expert. So school us today, Dr. Bonnie. We're going to be talking about the importance of developing a healthy relationship with your vet for the personalized care for your dog. And we're going to talk about the cost of care, the questions that you should be asking to make sure that you're not being taken advantage of. So before we dive deep, I just wanted to do a shout out to all of the veterinarians, the techs and the other team members of these veterinary practices because I don't know if a lot of us realize the pressure, the stress that they are all under especially now these days. Do you want to talk about that? Yeah, so During COVID, a lot of us went out and got new dogs, had time with our dogs and understood that maybe things weren't quite right, we got caught up on preventative care. And we went to the veterinarian very often, during a time when there's a shortage of veterinary help veterinarians, trained technicians. And so it's been very stressful to bring that all together allow veterinarians to do the medicine and practice the way they want to, as well as be able to have time for themselves and not be so stressed. And so I am very grateful to any dog owner that just is a little more patient than normal. I now actually go to the veterinarian to get care for my own animals, and I have to be a lot more patient and understand things are taking longer in that so that staff can deliver quality care and aren't rushed. So it takes a lot of patience these days. Yeah. And I think sometimes we forget that the practice is a business. Right? Different Types of Veterinary Practice Structures and Ownership So and that's something that we should talk about, right. So what I am very, very passionate about, because I am an insider, and I am a veterinarian, I don't practice now. So I have to seek care for my own pets, and very passionate about helping dog owners to understand the different types of practices. So dog owners have a large number of choices of where they get care. They can go to a corporate practice, which is a national practice with standards across the United States, kind of like going to McDonald's, you get the same hamburger, so you know what to expect. You can also seek care at a an independent practice. And those can be one doctor practices all the way up to 30 Doctor practices. There are even nonprofit practices these days. So those are our practices that support low income folks, folks who might struggle to pay for care. So everybody has an opportunity to choose the kind of care they would like and how personalized that is, and what kind of relationship they have with their veterinarian. And they just need to understand those differences. To be able to ask the right questions. That's a really good point. Well, how do you want to start this conversation about forming a healthy relationship with our veterinarians? What Kind of Veterinary Care Do You Seek for Your Dog? Yeah, I think the most important thing is to consider the kind of health care you want for yourself, as well as for your dogs. And we all have different philosophies about how we would like to live our lives. Some folks want to live full out, and hey, you know, I'm going to eat doughnuts and smoke cigarettes. And that's great. And my grandma lived to 100. And she drank a glass of whiskey every day. And other folks are like, No, you know, I want to be very restrictive about my health care and make sure I work on it, and take care of myself to the optimum. And one of the things that I think is most important is to also to assess risk. So am I somebody who really wants to minimize risk and take absolutely no risks, and make sure that I get the best outcomes? Or am I maybe, you know, maybe I want to have a little more value added care. And I'm, you know, maybe willing to take a little bit more risk, because I'm having to pinch pennies and things like that. And so, first and foremost, consider what's important to you philosophically, ethically, morally, what style of healthcare you like, and then think about your budget. And once you put that all together, have a conversation with your veterinarian, because what I think so many times people forget is your veterinarian, has their style of care that they want, and they like to deliver. There's actually some experts in the veterinary profession who talk about burnout. And they talk more about burnout, not so much about compassion and empathy and kindness and sympathy. They're actually talking about burnout from a moral and ethical standpoint. So there's a lot of diversity in how we feel like our pets should be cared for. Some of us feel like our dogs should receive every bit of the same care as we receive. And other folks feel like maybe the budget is more important than the the type of care that's delivered. So veterinarians kind of get stuck in the middle. Because they're trying to advocate for their patients. They're trying to meet the budget and the philosophy and the moral needs of the client. And then they're trying to navigate these relationships. And it can be and their own personal feelings about what type of care should be delivered. And that can be very stressful for them. So I'll give you a you know, an example. Let's say that you really prefer to have a heavy emphasis on Eastern philosophies of medicine. Let's say that naturopathy, homeopathy, herbal medications, those are very very important to you as a health care consumer both for yourself, as well as Your Dog, it's important to find a veterinarian that also maybe even specializes or has those types of knowledge and moral and ethical style of medicine. And then you have that automatic match. So you're not at odds of what you're trying to accomplish for your dog. Risk vs Choice That makes total sense. And I know when we first met, we talked in depth about this risk versus choice, and how to mitigate risk. Can you talk about because I know we mentioned vaccinations and flea and tick medications? And what are the choices versus the risks? And what should we look out for when talking about treatments? Yeah, so we started off with like, what are the steps to get the right relationship with a veterinarian to meet your needs and your dog's needs? You know, number one, decide what your philosophy is, and what kind of style of medicine you want for yourself and your pets. Second, I think is that assessment of risk and understanding what type of risk and lifestyle you and your pet live. And then the third step is budget after that. And so when I talk about risk, you know, I could have, let's say, a Jack Russell Terrier, that's a breed that can be a couch potato, or they can be a working dog. So if I'm, if I were practicing today, and I had a Jack Russell Terrier that came to me and it lived on a farm, part of his job was to help keep, you know, the farm free of rats, keep folks safe from all the diseases that rats can carry, versus a Jack Russell Terrier that maybe lives as a companion for somebody who lives in an urban environment, the needs for different preventative care, vaccinations, parasiticide, is different. So the lifestyle of that hunting dog, that dog is going to get exposed to far many more infectious diseases than the dog maybe that sits on the couch, maybe even is trained to go to the bathroom inside. And so first thinking about what lifestyle risks there are. So the hunting dog has a risk of getting infected with ticks and fleas and and leptospirosis and all kinds of diseases carried by rats, whereas the couch potato is not going to have that kind of exposure. And so then once we know what the risk is due to lifestyle, then having a very focused conversation with your veterinarian about what vaccinations and parasiticide are needed. And if you tend to be somebody who prefers the fewer medications more than non traditional medications, there are things you can do to change your lifestyle to make risk of infectious diseases lower. So for instance, there are veterinarians I work with just like dog owners, who are very focused on integrative and maybe non traditional styles of practice. And for them, they prefer to have the least number of vaccines, they prefer to have the least number of parasiticides and medications on a regular basis, and so forth. What I've instructed those folks is that, you know, those pets who are going to receive fewer vaccines and fewer parasiticides should lead a less social life, and more restricted in what they access. So let's say, you know, I'm worried about that dog's immune system, I'm worried about vaccinating that dog, and I don't vaccinate it, or I vaccinate it less frequently, then I might restrict that dog from social activities because I don't want it to get infected. Or I might restrict it to a very small playgroup, like having all of the same dogs in that same playgroup, which aren't exposed to other dogs with the potential infectious diseases. So, for instance, let's say that I'm a foster mom, and I really like fostering dogs. And it's important to me that I give back by fostering that's a scenario where I'm going to have a lot more exposure to infectious diseases where vaccination is important that my own personal pet be vaccinated, as I rescue and bring in these dogs, but I where I don't know what the exposure’s been. So I may have to choose if I don't want to vaccinate as much, I may have to give up fostering in order to keep my own personal pet healthy. Titer Testing Or like everybody that follows this Show, we know about titer testing, and if we know that our dogs have the antibodies for you know the various diseases, then we should feel comfortable instead of over vaccinating or re boosting. Right. Now, there are some differences. So I did you know, I gave you a case case study that was extreme and what I was kind of thinking back and harkening back to is we did have, we've had some sporadic, not common, but we've had some sporadic outbreaks of canine influenza. And there are a number of different strains just like there are with people and birds and so some are more pathologic and, and problematic than others. And so absolutely titer testing is very, it's pretty reliable when it comes to core diseases like distemper, rabies and Parvo. I didn't do titer testing when I was in practice, but I do believe it's very good for helping understand if that dog has been well vaccinated. There are other diseases that we just you know, we don't have the ability, we don't have the knowledge or the information to predict whether that titer is going to be protected, or even if we can commercially test titers. And so the respiratory diseases are a little bit more difficult than some of the other core diseases. And so with canine influenza. And I keep thinking about that one, because we did have a new strain. There were some folks that that had some pretty difficult times with their personal pets, because they were very generous with fostering. So in that scenario, with fostering one of the very easy husbandry ways to manage through that is through isolation and quarantine. And so rather than if you if you don't want to vaccinate, and you know that you are very worried about that keeping your own personal pets isolated from those that you're bringing in, and that way you can manage exposure, and then just you know, managing as you go between the populations. That makes a lot of sense. Thank you for sharing that. Well, we are at a point in the show where we need to take a quick commercial break. So we'll see you on the flip side, everybody. Stay tuned. Now is the perfect time to thank Liz Murdoch from Talking with the Dogs for being our monthly sponsor. Liz has developed a limited edition product and it's perfect for all of the dog lovers out there. Now what's better than talking to or about your dog? Dog Talk Conversation Starters offer 72 questions and writing prompts to get you connected and thinking about your dog in brand new ways. Whether sharing laughs about funny things our dogs do, or savoring favorite memories spent with a four legged friend, these Dog Talk cards are guaranteed to get you in touch with a dog in your life, or maybe even your heart. They worked for myself and my dog Winston and these are so fun with a group of dog loving friends to help prompt great conversations about our pups. Fun for all ages, these dog talk cards are a must for every dog parent. Order your deck by going to DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off. Order two or more boxes and get free shipping. Remember, these are limited edition, so be sure to order yours today! Welcome back, everybody. We are talking with Dr. Bonnie Bragdon. And how to have the best relationship with your vet. So very important, because Dr. Bonnie aren't we a team? It's not so many people hold veterinarians way up on this pedestal and almost feel that they can't say anything or ask questions, which they really should be. They shouldn’t be intimidated, right? Conversations with Your Vet No, they shouldn't be intimidated. And I would hope every one of my veterinary colleagues would agree with me when I say, if a veterinarian’s making you feel intimidated, and that's not a good relationship, and you need to search for a veterinarian that you're comfortable with. And that's the same for our physicians as well. And what is so fabulously wonderful about veterinary medicine is you can, I'm pretty sure I find the veterinarian who matches your philosophy, matches your medical style, your morals, your ethics and feelings and thoughts about your dog and the care that that dog should receive. It just takes a little work to find that veterinarian, and I'm gonna go off on a bit of a tangent but there I know a veterinarian in Texas, her whole practice is limited to helping rodeo bulls live their best life, in competitive sport. So no matter how you feel about, you know, animals and competition and how we have those types of relationships, there's a veterinarian and her whole career is dedicated to making sure that those bulls are competing in rodeos are healthy and competitive. And then will live a long and healthy life. And I never would have known that. So finding that right veterinarian for your dog is absolutely possible. It's just a matter of doing some research. First, you know, starting off with the practice website, and then having a conversation with the staff as well as the veterinarian and asking all of those questions. And I think some important questions to ask just like you, you know, you kind of prodded me is, you know, what is your philosophy regarding preventative care? You know, what is your philosophy regarding vaccination? And I would like to stop and say, a veterinarian philosophy about vaccination. parasiticide is very much formed by their experiences in practice, fairly self evident. So there's a lot of diversity and you'll hear me talk a lot about vaccination, for the very important reason that I worked in an animal control environment. And when I was in animal control I saw I saw far, many more animals die from preventable diseases because they weren't vaccinated. However, if you look at the World Health Organization's paper on vaccination and preventative care, they state in the developed world, that there are probably as many pets that are over vaccinated as many over vaccinated pets as there are under vaccinated pets. And so that's where we need a balance, right? And so some very interesting data that I don't have top of head anymore, but there are veterinary deserts, in certain environments in the United States, just like there are food deserts and healthcare deserts for people in that people are unable to get basic care and the basic vaccines. So these puppies have not been vaccinated for Parvo. And so those areas Parvo and distemper have very high prevalence, diseases, which probably certain veterinarians have never even seen in their career. So given my experience in a rural environment in the South in animal control, where vaccination was not highly valued by the community, I saw outbreaks of distemper and Parvo however, I went to practice at a very upscale area where vaccination was very prevalent, and I never saw another distemper case and I saw very few Parvo cases. So again, going back to that idea of understanding, lifestyle and risk, and then that dictates what preventative care, you should seek from your your healthcare provider. Cost of Treatment? All right, good tip. And when we talk about cost when we're looking at cost, you know, everything now is so expensive. And what are the questions that we need to ask to make sure that we're not overpaying for the services that we're paying for? Right. And, again, it's still gonna go back to that idea of risk. And risk is something I am very passionate about talking about, because I think so many times we read in the media, and we get very overwhelmed, right? So for me, myself, personally, I'm like, Oh, my God, I could be I could get monkey pox, I could get Ebola, I could get COVID. Now we've got flu. And we get all of this information. And we don't really have any help to understand what the relative risk is, what's the risk that I'm going to get the disease or that my dog is going to get a disease, what is the risk that the dog is going to get sick and die from the disease and what is the risk for preventing or treating that? So I'll give you an example. I have a colleague that I've worked with in the past. And she lives in Chicago, and I'm here in the South. And she sent me this picture of this dog. And she's like, convinced like, Oh, my God, I'm, I'm like, I found this, this insect on my dog, I am convinced it is this rare disease, he is going to die, I am freaking out, what should I do? And I said, well, the likelihood that that insect carries the disease, that it's going to kill your dog as low. The likelihood that that bug, if it has the infectious disease is going to infect your dog is low, you got got the insect off the dog almost immediately. And frankly, to be very blunt, there's no treatment. And if the dog is already sick, there's unfortunately nothing you can do about it. So giving that stepwise process and thought about risk, there's no need to panic over a weekend. There's no need to seek expensive consultation at an emergency practice. And it's okay to monitor that dog and how they are progressing and feeling. So having that stepwise conversation with a clinician, what is the risk that my dog is going to get this disease? What is what is the likelihood that the pet with the likelihood of outcome is going to be? How much will it cost to treat? And how much will it cost if I kind of watch or take other measures to monitor this disease process. And so if we think about, for instance, parvo virus, that's a very expensive disease to treat, that one, when we see a pet come in or dog come in, and we've diagnosed parvo virus, we know we want to hospitalize, we want to maximize the care that that dog is getting, we want to put in place an IV catheter and do everything we can because mortality can be as high as 20 to 30% in those puppies. However, if I have a dog come in, and maybe has an upper respiratory disease, it's got a honking cough, you know, without playing in the playground with the dog at the dog park, it's probably it might be viral might be respiratory, that's one where I might be able to watch and not give antibiotics, and watch for signs that the dog is getting progressively worse. So it's this idea of being able to understand the risk of death, and then kind of kind of trading care based on budget and based on the likelihood of a good outcome versus, you know, a poor outcome. Is the Veterinary Industry Broken? Sure. Well, I think we can all agree that in human medicine that the medical industry is broken. I'll just say that. So do you feel that there are improvements that can be made in veterinary medicine and the industry? Yes. So it is absolutely fascinating. I just came back from a conference, run by the ASPCA. And that conference, I just my hat's off to that group and the leadership they've shown, they're bringing to the veterinary profession, a conversation around access to care. And the conversation is around the spectrum of care. So veterinarians, especially veterinarians, in my age, we were taught to offer gold, you know, silver and bronze care. So kind of better, best, you know, minimum care. And that's not pleasant, right? That's not a fair conversation to have with somebody. Well, you know, if you can't afford it, we're just gonna kind of get you the basics and send you out the door. And that's, that's not a fair conversation to have with anybody. However, if we talk about the spectrum of care, right, we can have a conversation around, how much care do we deliver to minimize risk? And if we think about a surgical case, for instance, if I've got a puppy that comes in a six month old puppy that's being spayed or neutered, you know, Can I can I get you know, not do bloodwork on that pet, you know, you know, what is the risk if I put that pet under anesthesia, and I need to do you know, a castration or a spay, and I don't do pre, you know, pre surgical bloodwork does that, you know, what's the what's the likely outcome? Well, in a young animal, the likely outcome if I don't spend the money on pre surgical bloodwork, that that pet is probably going to get through surgery, okay. However, I don't know there could be a risk, I could miss a liver shunt. I could miss a congenital kidney problem. And so that's where we're starting to have more conversations around the spectrum of care. So we can deliver good quality value care to people that meet their budget. Now I had clients, it had nothing to do with their budget. They would go without for themselves in order to make sure that that pet, get every type of care absolutely possible in order to make Make sure they minimize risk at all cost. And then there were others who said, No, I really, I have to meet my budget. And so let's have a conversation around how we're going to do a good quality job. But maybe I'm willing to take a little bit more risk. Malpractice in Veterinary Medicine Well, since we're talking about risk, it makes me unfortunately, go right to malpractice. Because we are so emotionally bonded with our dogs. And if something happens, whether it was human error, or you know, they went the less expensive route, and something was missed, you know, whatever that is, there has to be a lot spent on malpractice insurance in a veterinary practice. Because isn't it prevalent? Yeah, malpractice is very different, for better or for worse. And this, this is controversial. So most states, here in America, consider animals to be property. No matter how much we love or care about our animals, at the end of the day, from a legal standpoint, they are considered property. Now, we still have, we have far more responsibilities for caring for our animals than we do regular property. So it's kind of this weird dynamic, where legally, that animal is considered property. But we have all these humane and welfare very expanding and very good laws about how we have to take care of these animals. And because animals are considered property, it does mitigate and lessen what happens when there is malpractice. And so that, you know, there's pros and cons to that, right? The good side of lowered malpractice is that that cost is not passed on to consumers. Now, the difficult part is if you feel like, you know, there has been malpractice, you may not be able to recover financially. But the way that I think about this is oftentimes I think we feel like getting, you know, a financial outcome from malpractice is a way to feel like we've been, you know, paid back not just on the damages, the financial damages, but also the emotional damages. And I think if we're able to kind of have a better conversation than physicians have, then I think we can keep the cost of care low, but still be able to acknowledge and provide people with closure, that that animal was every bit as important to them as any person, and that that problem or malpractice or negligence was every bit as emotional and problematic and dear to them as if it were a human. One of the things we don't always talk about is part of the stress that veterinarians feel I know myself personally, I have felt this is when there is an error or some other malpractices happen. I know I personally have felt it very deeply. I think that's why I don't practice today is because it's emotionally difficult for us as well. We well I, most veterinarians that I know, never want anything to go wrong. And when something does go wrong, they feel horribly about it. Really, I think it would be great to have a conversation among healthcare providers in veterinary medicine as well as legal and ethical folks and experts as well as owners or pet parents, so that we can have a better more balanced conversation around. Yes, financial damages need to be paid in order for that person to be paid back for the cost of care if it was negligent or malpractice to also have some form of acknowledging the grief. And you know, the difficulties and the emotional burden that comes with those. Those problems that crop up? So I don't have an exact answer. But the privileges that we have in veterinary medicine and animal health, is that if we just develop closer relationships with pet parents, we have such huge opportunities to really shape the future of Veterinary Medicine, unlike human medicine, because it's human medicine. There's so many government laws and policies and there's so many things that have to force or form the scenario where we have a huge opportunity in veterinary medicine to really make it something that works for everybody. Well said, Well, Dr. Bonnie, we are out of time. But I want to quickly let everybody know you co founded the Independent Veterinary Practitioners Association. Can you quickly tell us what that is about? Yeah, so I believe that everybody should have choice in the type of care they receive. Whether that's the most expensive or the most value added. And in veterinary medicine today, it is becoming consolidated and corporatized. So larger and larger companies are owning more and more veterinary practices. And I want consumers to know that they still have an option of seeking care with a practice that is owned by the veterinarian who works there. And oftentimes, those veterinarians and those healthcare providers can be more flexible in order to provide personalized care. Dr. Bonnie Bragdon Contact Info I love it. Thank you for that. That's an amazing organization. Well, as we are leaving today, how can people find out more about you and the association? Website for the IVPA is https://www.iveterinarians.org/   Social Media URLs or Tags          Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iveterinarians/          LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/independentveterinarian/ Yes, so they can visit visit us at https://www.iveterinarians.org/. And you can actually go on there and find one of our members. So you know for sure that it is a veterinary owned practice. That is another thing that I would advise people to ask questions. Oftentimes, these practices are not branded. And so as you're seeking care, ask the question, you know, who is it that dictates policy and procedure, medical SOPs, medical protocols? Is that the veterinarian here on site? Or is that a company and a group of veterinarians and a group of administrators off site. And if it's a group of administrators off site, that doesn't mean the care, it still is good quality care. It's just it might be more restrictive. And those veterinarians in the clinic may not be able to make those personalized touches, right. So those veterinarians who work for practices that have rigid policies are going to give you the company’s philosophy on vaccination, parasiticide, whereas an independent practitioner can have a more personalized conversation to really give you the kind of preventative care that meets you and your pet's needs. Great info. Dr. Bonnie, thank you so much for all that you do. And for being here. This is all good information. I really appreciate it. I just wish I could talk to all your people. So if you get any questions, I love answering questions. So I'm absolutely very serious if there's a way to get those questions to me. I mean, I cannot advise on specific cases. But I can guide people as to what questions to ask their veterinarian so they can get the right, right care that they need. And I love answering this questions. All right, everybody. You heard it. So give me your questions. I'll forward it on to Dr. Bonnie. Thank you so much. And we'll be back next time. Thank you for your time today. Thanks again to our sponsor Genie’s Therapeutics for sponsoring this episode. Fetch some Genie’s Therapeutics Hemp Signature Blend for your dog at GeniesTherapeutics.com. And be sure to use the code WOLspecial to receive free shipping and 10% off. Thanks again to Talking With the Dogs and their new Dog Talk Conversation Starter Cards for sponsoring this episode. Get your limited edition Dog Talk Cards by visiting DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off, plus free shipping if you order two or more boxes. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hello there this is Krista with Episode #169 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Why does your dog lick you? Well, dogs lick your skin because they like the salty taste of you, or simply as a sign of affection. And according to experts, the process of licking releases feel good endorphins that make your dog happy and feel relaxed. So I say, bring on the licks! Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Veterinarian Dr. Karen Shaw Becker believes biologically appropriate food and an animal's immediate environment are the most important factors in determining health, vitality, and lifespan. She has spent her career as a small animal clinician, empowering animal guardians to make intentional lifestyle decisions to enhance the wellbeing of their animals.  Hello, dog lovers. Why am I so giddy today? Well, it's because I have THE Dr. Karen Shaw Becker on the show with us. And she's going to talk about why stress is one of the hardest lifestyle challenges for modern dogs. Dr. Becker, I know I've been hounding you now and your team for about three years to be on this pawdcast. So thank you, for appeasing me. Many of those listening probably know who you are already, maybe because I don't know you're the most followed veterinarian in the world. But why don't you introduce yourself? And why don't you also share, when in your career, the light bulb came on for you to practice integrative medicine. Well, thank you Krista for hosting me and I appreciate your incredible patience. While we figure out a time of day for this podcast, you've been very kindly patient, and I'm just excited to be here. So thank you. And I was one of the rare people I believe in the health and wellness space that I played… Well, I didn't have to go through my own physical health crisis, or lose a dog to a health crisis or to a preventable health crisis. Thank goodness, I feel pretty blessed that I came out of a very proactive, healthy home. My entire family, I come from a long line of incredibly wise women that made it their focused intention to create health in their families. So my grandma Shaw, my Mama’s Mama was the one who taught me how to grow wheat grass and sprouts when I was 12. She was sprouting., you know when I was 12. So I learned actually how to grow my first batch of sprouts from my grandma Shaw. And I just come from a long line of people who have used food as medicine and have taken on a more common sense approach to health and wellness. And I'm incredibly thankful for that because I went to veterinary school knowing I would be a proactive veterinarian, I went to veterinary school knowing that my toolbox was not going to be complete that I went to veterinary school saying thank you that I have triage skills, and I have surgical skills for crisis. And when it comes to infectious diseases, these are the things that I learned in veterinary school how to fix acute trauma, like a hit by car and how to manage infectious infectious disease. I knew going into vet school that I would not learn anything about how to prevent degenerative disease from occurring, how to prevent lifestyle diseases, I knew that I was going to be sadly deficient in how to keep the body well. So I feel thankful that I was aware of that deficit. And so I took the classes, courses and certs and certificates I needed either during veterinary school or I can I'm a professional student. So I'm still in classes. Right now I'm taking a really a two year long genetics class to learn about the genetic variants that affect dogs and cats that allow us to be able to make changes before those genetic snips are expressed. So I'm always learning something. But I'm just really thankful that I came from a home that believes in wellness. So it was not something I had to go through out of trauma. It was It has been a lifestyle for me since the day I was born, thankfully. Good for you. Well, this topic, I don't know how we're going to cover it in 30 minutes, because there's a lot to talk about. But we know that we as humans are more stressed than ever before. It's just a fact. We also know that our stress is felt through our dogs. So if we are in constant fight or flight, our cortisol is always on and up. Our dogs most likely are going to have bad adrenals as well as a result is that right? How Our Stress Affects our Dogs It's pretty clear cut. And Dr. Biagio D’Aniello from Italy was the scientist that we interviewed that kind of broke that news. He was the guy that found out that dogs had chemo signals that they could smell for fear, rage, stress, happiness/joy within one second of our human emotions. He was the guy that determined that dogs not just identify those emotions, but they themselves can feel them as well. So you are spot on. Whatever the barometer of our emotional state, or our home's emotional state that will become our dog's emotional state, you're spot on. And I think I don't know if it was the same study, but the one in Science Daily that said, 93.75% of the changes in our stress, dogs could detect just through a change in our breath and our sweat. That's how spot on they are in picking it out. How spot on they are. And you know that that does two things for me. I stop for a split second. And I'm in awe. Because I mean, we all know dogs are amazing. Of course. That's why you have you know, you're doing this podcast. That's why people are listening. And that's why I'm a veterinarian. I mean, dogs are just awesome. But then you hear things like that. And first I stopped and I'm like, That is so cool. But then if you're like me, you feel this weight, you feel this weight of Okay. Our animals are basically trapped in our homes. And our homes can be chemically toxic, emotionally toxic, physiologically toxic. It's all these, you know that our homes are the places where our dogs primarily reside. And so, oh my goodness, not only when I heard about this study I was compelled enough to get on a plane and go visit the researcher. When you watch these dogs work in the lab. And when they have these hidden samples, it's amazing. They'll allow a dog to smell a sweat sample from fear. And immediately the dog is able to smell it and instantaneously adapt. But now they're measuring that dog's stress hormones. And instantly the dog secretes high levels of stress hormones, because if you think about it, that evolutionarily makes sense that dogs like okay, if mom or dad or are releasing through chemo signals, stress response, that's my cue that something in the environment may not be safe for me. So they're going to mimic that same stress response. And over time, you can get into a pretty toxic situation where you have ongoing levels of stress hormones and fight or flight ends up in a burnout situation. It's bad for the whole family. So identifying stressors are one of the things we can do preemptively to try and mitigate or minimize our dog's risk in that environment. And is that what is considered the overactive sympathetic nervous system? When they’re in that state? Exactly. Yes, yep. And so there is, of course, fight or flight, there's also freeze, which a lot of animals, they just shut down. But you know, it's interesting Krista, when we were outlining how to encompass this, how are we going to lay out for for dog owners, this strategy that they could easily remember and thinking about all the moving parts that it takes to intentionally create a longer life but also a healthier, happier dog by us making better decisions? Like how do we lay that out in the book, we came up with this D O G S strategy. So D is for Diet and Nutrition. And your listeners already know about that. Food is a thing that we do every day that either heals or harms our dogs. And that's not rocket science. That just is what it is. So making good nutritional decisions to the best of your ability, with the money you have. And then figuring out creative, easy, simple hacks to fill in with fresh foods is a really common sense thing that we all should be doing. So that one's kind of a gimme. The O is for Optimal Movement, which is exercise. And it's no there. Again, it's not a shocker to anyone that dogs need daily movement, all dogs, even the tiniest of dogs are wired as athletes and they need a lot of movement, not just for mental, emotional, and physical well being, but they just need to be able to move their bodies to, you know, maintain lean muscle mass. And the lack of exercise is a big stressor in that it predisposes dogs to having torn ACLs. And they develop more degenerative joint disease, or if they're constantly pulling on their neck, that's a physical stressor, that stressor that can cause disc disease in the neck. So there are these physical stressors that totally impact the dog's ability to be physically well, the G stands for Genetic Predispositions. And when I went to vet school 25 years ago, we were taught that a dog’s genetics are just steps. But what I learned through writing this book Is that actually dogs and humans, we all have this set of genetic variants that can actually be up or downregulated through this brand new science and research of epigenetics. So our decisions on a day to day basis when it comes to the chemicals our dogs are exposed to the foods that they eat, that impacts actually genetic expression. So that's really good to know. But you are right, the stress component, not only did I underestimate how stress impacts dogs, but I was really taken aback that every single longevity researcher and scientist that we talked to, every single one of them said, when when we asked them, Hey, what are you if you could give us one summarizing statement about if you were going to intentionally create an animal that has less degenerative disease and lives its maximum lifespan? What's your take home two cents, you got to have it written down, and every single scientist talked about stress. So it was something that I think overall, I think veterinarians underestimate the role of stress in when it comes to health and well being. I think that pet parents maybe aren't identifying all the stressors. So that was a big area of focus in the book, because I think all of us have underestimated just how impactful stress affects our dogs. And in all of the different ways that stress can impact our dogs. Right. Well, in case anybody listening doesn't know what book Dr. Becker is actually talking about. It is The Forever dog, which should be the Bible for anybody that wants to treat their dog's health in a natural way. And be preventative. And that's what you're talking about. So again, that's the Forever dog. And Dr. Karen just talked about the D. O. G. S. strategy. So I love that. But we're gonna take a break here in a minute. But before we do that, could you just talk about some basic environmental factors that are going on, that are causing stress in our dogs, and just a spoiler alert… Part two, the second half of this interview is going to talk strictly about early spay and neuter, and how that stresses the system. So Dr. Karen, can you just tell us about some of the environmental factors. Environmental Factors The other. You bet. So, maybe what we'll do is is a easer pre break is the fact that when we think about stress, yes, there's the emotional mental stress. So you know, if you have to keep your dog in a kennel all day while you're at work that is necessary, but that's also a physiologic stressor. There is lack of environmental enrichment in many dogs’ homes, or if there's some adversive training or harsh training that can be a mental or emotional stressor to a dog. The physical stressors like obesity, or lack of exercise, or having your blinds pulled close. My gosh, I didn't realize how much dark homes totally throw off our dog's circadian rhythm. I talked to Nobel Prize winner Dr. Satchin Panda. And he said, I said, What's your number one take home and he said to me, it should be cruelty to animals, that they are stuck in homes and apartments all day with the blinds closed. He said, if people knew how much endocrine disruption they could prevent by just allowing direct sunlight through windows into their homes everyday that alone, you would see an improvement with a dog’s mental well being and oh my gosh, it's so important. So that's a physical, those are physical. Then we're going to talk about chemical stressors. And so right before the break, let me just throw this in. Of course, there are chemical stressors in the home. So we have air and water. You know, if we're doing city water with fluoride and chlorine, if you're doing well water that has heavy metals, or for smoking inside the home, if we're using a lot of scented candles that give off VOCs if we're using cleaning products that say you know call poison control, we know that our animals are collecting those. If we're having off gases from flame retardants, all of those things inside of our home impact our dog's DNA. Outside of our home, we have lawn chemicals, pesticides, and they have several studies that talk about how just pesticide use alone. And if you have a professionally treated lawn that increases your dog's risk of lymphoma by 70%. That's what we call chemical stressors. But after the break, we're going to talk about the veterinary stressors. And that's the piece being a veterinarian, Gulp. That's a soft spot for me. And so we'll talk about veterinary stressors after the break because that's the category of things that I think oftentimes certainly veterinarians aren't reflecting on, but I think oftentimes pet parents aren't either. I'm excited. Well, everybody hold tight. We'll be right back. Thanks to my friends at Genie’s Therapeutics for sponsoring this Episode. Now if I say CBD, your head probably start spinning because there are so many canine CBD products on the market. I totally get it. But with little regulation in the industry, how are we to trust what's on the market? How do we even read a certificate of analysis? And will a certain product actually help our dog? Well, I've done the research and I've tried numerous CBD products on Winston and my trust is in Genie’s Therapeutics. This is a company that provides one of the few USDA organic certified hemp tinctures on the market today. And it is organic from seed to manufacturing. Genie’s Hemp Signature Blend not only contains CBD, but also CBG and CBDA and if you want to geek out more about why that is important, just check out the recent Cornell University study. So don't settle for anything less. Give your dog a CBD product that is a full spectrum hemp based formula that's locally and organically produced, includes a free advanced dosing calculator on their website, is supported by a complimentary concierge program to help answer all of your questions and was created by dog lovers and grounded in science. Fetch some Genie’s Therapeutics Hemp Signature Blend for your dog at GeniesTherapeutics.com and be sure to use the code WOLspecial to receive free shipping plus 10% off. Now is the perfect time to thank Liz Murdoch from Talking with the Dogs for being our monthly sponsor. Liz has developed a limited edition product and it's perfect for all of the dog lovers out there. Now what's better than talking to or about your dog? Dog Talk Conversation Starters offer 72 questions and writing prompts to get you connected and thinking about your dog in brand new ways. Whether sharing laughs about funny things our dogs do, or savoring favorite memories spent with a four legged friend, these Dog Talk cards are guaranteed to get you in touch with a dog in your life, or maybe even your heart. They worked for myself and my dog Winston and these are so fun with a group of dog loving friends to help prompt great conversations about our pups. Fun for all ages, these dog talk cards are a must for every dog parent. Order your deck by going to DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off. Order two or more boxes and get free shipping. Remember, these are limited edition, so be sure to order yours today! We are back and speaking with Dr. Karen Becker. So exciting! But Dr. Karen, you are a veterinarian, and you're about to talk about the stressors on dogs that our veterinarians are really responsible for. So I'll let you open that can of worms. Veterinary Stressors Well, thank you. I will also also preface this conversation by saying I hope your listeners understand that veterinarians are very good people with amazing hearts doing the very best they can in what I would call one of the hardest jobs on the planet. So first of all, everyone listening, please recognize your veterinarian is doing the very best they can so with the information that they have. And if you… so a couple different things. If you have wildly different viewpoints than your veterinarian, one of the things you can do to do to minimize stress and frustration for you is to potentially align yourself with a health and wellness or proactive functional medicine veterinarian that maybe has more aligning overarching viewpoints on how to approach health and medicine, disease and degeneration. If you don't have access to a health and wellness practitioner, and just as a side note, people say where do I go? Many many functional medicine or integrative veterinarians do phone consults. The College of Integrative Veterinary Therapies has a listing online that has a world wide reference of a directory you can go to https://civtedu.org/directory and if so let's just say you're stuck in in Idaho or North Dakota and you're like oh my gosh, there's no veterinarians three hours away for you not much less a wellness veterinarian. Don't fret. This is a this is gonna motivate you for two reasons. Number one, you should begin realizing that this is your cue to become the most empowered, knowledgeable pet parent because you are front and center then for identifying because you don't have a wellness veterinarian right on the corner, you are your dog or cat’s first go to you have to be wise enough to be able to make good decisions with no regrets, which means your learning curve may be exponential, but just do it anyway. And number two, you can meet a wellness or functional medicine integrative practitioner that you can do telemedicine or phone consults with and that is hugely reassuring to many people who say, Oh my gosh, I am in a rural part of North Africa, and I don't have access to a wellness veterinarian, you can because of technology. So just don't panic about that part. Second thing I'll mention is that some chemicals are necessary. And so I am by no means saying that, that this list, I'm going to rattle off I'll just start with flea and tick pesticides. So veterinarians you know, my group of professionals we routinely prescribe pesticides that we intentionally feed to pets on a consistent basis for flea, tick and heartworm. And people say oh my gosh, I never thought about the fact that I'm intentionally feeding pesticides to my animals. That kind of freaks me out. If you live in Florida, if you don't do something for fleas and ticks, you could end up with overwhelming Lyme disease, and overwhelming heartworm. And that that risk versus benefit of not using chemicals is not there. So I mean, you have to do something depending on where you live. But one of the things that's really important that we stress in the book is if you have to use chemicals on your lawn, or let's say you live in a subdivision where they are going to spray or you have to give to flea and tick pesticides. The key is to formulate a damage control protocol. So if you are going to knowingly institute a chemical stressor in or around your dog or cat, don't panic, evaluate does it have to happen and if it does, then you formulate a damage control protocol to help counteract any potential side effects. Same with vaccines. Vaccines are another veterinary chemical stressor that veterinarians routinely adjust. And what I would tell you from a functional wellness perspective is we all want our dogs to have Baseline Protection, great after two all time puppy shots for core vaccines that protection like with humans can oftentimes last a lifetime. So I know that you are a proponent of vaccine antibody titer, so am I. That's kind of common sense default, of course, I mean, the beautiful part about doing a simple easy blood test to measure your dog's immunity is once they're protected. They're protected for life. And it's just so reassuring to know that if your dog is around a Parvo positive puppy, they're protected. It's also reassuring to know that if God forbid, you can vaccinate your dog and your dog isn't protected. That's equally as important to know. Making Yeah, just making good decisions based on more knowledge is just very empowering. It should bring about a sense of relief and calming, not stress. I mean, that's one of the things that knowledge does is it helps put us in a place of taking a deep breath and saying, Okay, I'm so glad I knew enough to make this decision. So when it comes to other forms of veterinary stressors, you know, antibiotics are something that veterinarians oftentimes routinely prescribe. And sometimes just saying to your veterinarian, hey, my dog has a hotspot that's on the outside of the body. I can see it. It's an oozy gross thing I know you want to prescribe oral antibiotics, but what about me treating that oozy sore topically versus orally? Most veterinarians will say sure, give it a whirl. Here's what I recommend. Just having conversations with your vet if your vet’s saying hey, I want to automatically give your dog a dewormer just every year give them a de worming drug, you can say hey, how do you know what worms my dog has? Because the drugs we use for roundworms don't treat tapeworm so like why don't we do a parasite check. Let's look at the poop under a microscope. And if my dog has a parasite, we'll address it then that's an easy conversation. Your vet will say. Okay. So part of it is just opening a dialogue with your veterinarian about you recognizing that you want to be cognizant about the chemicals in and around your animal. And veterinarians are usually very open to having a conversation about recognizing that they want to reduce antibiotic resistance. They want to do everything they can to have a relationship with you that is trustworthy and also rooted in good communication and clear understanding of each other's needs. So just having a kind respectful conversation with your vet is a great place to start. In addition to those routine chemicals that veterinarians typically recommend. Veterinarians oftentimes also recommend early spay/neuter and this is a hard thing for me because I have been one of those veterinarians. When I opened my practice I came out of a kill shelter environment where I worked for 20 years and spaying and neutering early spay/neuter was very important to me because I equated it with responsible pet ownership. And it was only after I recognized that I had created an entire practice full of endocrine damaged dogs, that I started reflecting on the fact that I do have wildly responsible owners in my practice. And I have just created irrepairable endocrine damage on these dogs and in these dogs’ bodies. what can I do to potentially do damage control. So there again, if you are rescuing, and you have a dog that has come to you already spayed or neutered, that decision’s already been made for you. But one of the things I have learned, not just through writing the Forever Dog book, but into my dive of intentionally creating the longest, healthiest lived dogs on the planet. When we interviewed the owners of the oldest dogs in the world, they too, gave us more information that was very supportive of what this vast body of research is beginning to uncover. And what we've learned through research in the last 20 years, is that when we remove organs, specifically hormone secreting organs, so the ovaries in female dogs, and the testicles in male dogs, when we remove those hormone secreting tissues, before they ever had a chance to have the positive, impactful and necessary impact on their, the animal's endocrine system that's needed. For a fully functional system to work in harmony for normal hormone balance, when those organs are removed, before they ever have a chance to function. Some really negative things can happen. And when I started doing a deep dive into these really negative things, I It broke my heart because I am a veterinarian that has been directly responsible for harming many of my patients. So I'm going to read to you a list that is painful for me to read. I'm going to read to a list that not just me, but every veterinarian that has desexed dogs. Consequences of Early Desexing of Dogs If they don't know that there can be irreversible consequences when they do recognize it. It kind of takes you out at the knees because, of course, we all recognize that there's an overpopulation problem. And so none of us want to contribute to that. But what I have learned is that we can sterilize dogs with techniques that do not negatively impact our hormone system, which means we can render dogs sterile, so they're not capable of having unwanted litters without stripping them of necessary hormones. And so when we traditionally spay and neuter dogs, what the research shows is that animals that have been spayed and neutered, have higher incidences of obesity, urinary incontinence, bladder stones, atopic dermatitis, which is basically allergies in dogs, autoimmune hemolytic anemia, Addison's disease, that's that adrenal burnout that you were talking about. The medical term is called hyperadrenocorticism. But it's basically adrenal failure, diabetes, low thyroid or hypothyroidism immune mediated thrombocytopenia, that means the body quits making platelets, IBD, or inflammatory bowel disease, hip dysplasia, cranial cruciate ligament rupture, which is knee ligament tears, aggressive and fearful behavior, cognitive dysfunction syndrome, which is old dog Alzheimer's, doggy Alzheimer's, prostate cancer and bladder cancer. And the research goes on to say that musculoskeletal issues are significantly elevated the risk for increased musculoskeletal issues of all kinds for large breed dogs desexed before their growth plates have closed, is also a massive issue. So there's a long list, too long of irrepairable stuff really long list. And you know, I'll, I will send you the email of the resources. So if you want to put in the show notes, or if people want access, I'll send you the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens of articles, in fact about one a week right now coming out demonstrating the deleterious effects of not having any sex hormones. So again, I want to qualify for your listeners that we're not talking about irresponsibility, we're not talking about leaving animals intact to have unwanted litters. If they don't fill up our shelters, you're not talking about that. What we're talking about is the fact that many of us have spayed or neutered our dogs because we were told it's the healthiest. It's the healthiest thing we could do. Do and to be responsible and to create health. This is what we need to do. And for me it was eye opening to realize that sometimes we have to learn, unlearn, and relearn topics as science presents itself. Sometimes we have to totally switch gears and actually say things like, oh my goodness, as a professional, we were wrong about this approach. And we need to potentially change our course of action so that we don't continue creating damaged endocrine systems. And so this is kind of the beginning of us having a conversation worldwide on the veterinary level about the fact that we probably should be entertaining a conversation about teaching veterinary students, alternative sterilization techniques like vasectomy, and hysterectomy, that allow dogs to be sterile, but still have some sex hormones, so that some of these degenerative diseases don't occur in life. Brilliant. And if you were to suggest an age of a dog to wait on these alternative desexing methods, what would you suggest? What Age Should We Consider Spay/Neuter? But when we ask this to not only theriogenologists that we that we interviewed for the book, but I just asked this to Dr. Michelle Kutzler, who's a veterinarian, and she's board certified in Theriogenology, which is the specialty of reproduction. So she's basically an OBGYN For dogs. And I just did a podcast with her at on October 16. Actually, it's posted on Dr. Karen Becker’s Facebook page about this topic. So if any listeners want to spend an hour and a half kind of diving into this topic, you can scroll back through to October 16. And, and hear the my interview with a reproductive specialist about this topic. And what Dr. Kutzler suggested is that if you have a large breed dog, a dog over 50 pounds, that if you can wait until they are skeletally, mature, and that's different for every breed, for instance, you know, Tibetan Mastiffs, which are really big, massive breed, and they're very slow to develop, they really don't reach maturity until two years of age. So waiting until at least two would be a good idea. And for listeners, or readers, or for people in your circle, your wellness community that have purchased a dog from a breeder, many breeders wright into the contract that they that they can't spay or neuter before two years of age, or until after at least that second heat, because that gives the body a little bit of progesterone and estrogen, to be able to carry the body at least partially through a dog's life. So that maybe that early incontinence or I've had dogs, by the time that I've pulled their sutures, after spaying them, they've already started in to urinary incontinence. And that's a little overwhelming. So even letting a dog go through two heat cycles will give a bump of hormones that could be protective, at least according to research. Interesting. Well, we are about to wrap up. But I will put that other podcast in the show notes as well so people can do a deep dive. I hate to add to the list, but I think I read that Cushing's is also a disorder that has been shown… Better Way to Desex Our Dogs Yes. And you know, Cushing's disease, in fact adrenal dysfunction. The Addison's disease has been demonstrated into peer reviewed studies. Cushing's disease does have some research behind it where it has been implicated, certainly animals that are Krishna raised, the vast majority of animals with Cushings would have been spayed or neutered. So I do think that there certainly is a link. And that makes sense to me, even without the research that makes sense to me in that, that there's this hypothalamus, adrenal axis, cortisol axis, that that where the brain works with the adrenal glands and the sex hormones to maintain a physiologic balance in a dog's body. And so it makes total sense to me. And I would say that in my personal experience, absolutely Cushing's disease, as well as Addison's both have implications with spayed and neutered dogs. I don't have that that peer reviewed study for Cushing's in the in the dozens and dozens of references that I'll send you, because I don't think that they have been, I think that it's inferred that there is a link, but I don't have that research. But if you have it, you should share that with me because that means I missed that study. But I do think that adrenal disease and thyroid disease, the endocrine system, works as a web and so if you think about pulling on one side of a spiderweb, the entire web moves with it. So it does make sense that in animals and dogs specifically, like kitties are not affected by this issue, thank goodness. And the podcast I do with Dr. Kutzler kind of dives into why cats thank goodness don't have all these repercussions. But spaying and neutering of dogs is something that if we're capable of waiting until animals are physically mature, that's a really good idea. Or if you want to desex, if you want to sterilize your animals, and you don't want to desex them, let's say at eight weeks of age, you can ask your veterinarian for hysterectomy or vasectomy. Now, not all veterinarians know how to do that procedure. And that's kind of the hangup right now. But the beautiful part is more and more veterinarians are learning how to do hysterectomy and vasectomy, it's less time under anesthesia, it's a quicker, shorter procedure. It's a win win way all the way around, except that vet aren't taught how to do it. And so Dr. Kutzler has kind of made it her mission to help veterinarians learn these additional surgical techniques. So they're able to offer them to their clients. And she actually has some videos, if you are listening to this, and you are a veterinarian, or you want your veterinarian to potentially learn more. The Parsemus Foundation is a nonprofit that does a really great job of educating veterinarians and pet parents about some alternatives to some sterilization alternatives to desexing that helps preserve and endocrine function, which is wonderful. That is great. So you didn't stress us out? You actually gave us some good news that there are options. So yeah, that's good. Dr. Becker. Oh, my gosh, as we sign off, is there anything you'd like to leave us with? Advocating For Our Dogs The Right Way Well, I Yeah. And let me tell you why. You know, when we do kind of, I don't want to say short for like, first of all, I love the fact that your podcasts are short enough that people can get the information and get out, they don't go on for 2, 3, 4 hours, it's really beautiful. It's a perfect amount of time. But when we cover a topic like this, sometimes you can go away with Oh, my gosh, I didn't know that I feel overwhelmed. So the little tidbit of advice I would like to leave your listeners with are two things. Number one, if you have desexed your dog, don't panic, I have too. There's all sorts of damage control protocols. For every single one of those conditions listed there is a damage control protocol. So if your dog has one of the symptoms, don't melt down, take a deep breath and realize, okay, my dog has this. It's not just because they were spayed or neutered. All of these diseases have multifactorial effects that play into this. But there are still some things that can be done to help rebalance your dog's endocrine system post spay/neuter so don't feel like there's irreparable damage. that's been done, number one. And number two, I think that everyone listening to this podcast is doing the very best they can to provide the best life for the animals in their care. And I think that oftentimes, we're really hard on ourselves that we don't know enough. And if we could have had more money and more time and more resources and more knowledge, and that we could have done a better job. And I think that oftentimes we guilt ourselves into feeling so much shame and anxiety that we that we actually miss the incredible meaningful times we have with our dogs that just want it they want to hang out with us. They just want to spend time with us whether they're sick, or well, they just want to hang out with us. And I think that if we can let ourselves off the hook for all that we should be doing it could be doing and take a deep breath and begin to approach our dog's health and potentially recovery, that their illness recovery or their health and wellness journey begins with us taking a grounded, centered approach at a pace that doesn't cause any more stress in our lives, and at a pace that we can feel comfortable instituting with our budget and the resources and the knowledge that we have, that we every day, make a conscientious effort to learn more so that we can apply one step at a time, a little bit of knowledge, or a change or a pivot, or one thing that allows us to on a day by day basis, intentionally create patterns and choices, through good healthy decisions that come through learning information at a pace that we can absorb and apply. And that by the end of our time with our dogs on this earth. Our job is to be able to put our head on your pillow and say I did the very best that I could and I'm so thankful for this time with this blessed being and at that point. We've done all that we can and instead of beating ourselves up celebrate what a beautiful blessed gift this animal was and how much we've learned from sharing this life with this animal that we had. So I think if we can rearrange our perspective and shift it from frustration and guilt and anxiety about the stuff that isn't done and shifting it to a more proactive wellness empowered, I'm doing all I can and I can't wait to learn more, it helps us enjoy the journey. You are so right and what perfect advice. Well, Dr. Becker, where can everybody find out more information about you and what you're doing and The Forever Dog? Where to Find More About Dr. Becker The Forever dog is easy. It's just ForeverDog.com. And my over arching website, if you want to know more about who you know more about who I am, or what I do is DrKarenBecker.com. Instagram: @drkarenbecker Facebook: @doctor.karen.becker Easy enough and that everything that Dr. Becker mentioned, of course, will be in the show notes as well. And your social media tags. I'll put those in too. So Dr. Becker, thank you. This journey that I've been on has been worth the wait just to have you on this Show. I can't believe it. It's so exciting. So thank you. Well, and thank you so much. I tell you, it is so wonderful to see how many proactive Wellness Advocates are creating platforms and information outlets that allow people to plug in and get the tools and the resources and the information they need. It's just a beautiful way that we're knitting together an international wellness community that really is making a big difference when it comes to creating healthier, happier animals. So thank you so much for the part that you're doing. Oh, I appreciate you, Dr. Becker. Thanks so much. Thanks again to our sponsor Genie’s Therapeutics for sponsoring this episode. Fetch some Genie’s Therapeutics Hemp Signature Blend for your dog at GeniesTherapeutics.com. And be sure to use the code WOLspecial to receive free shipping and 10% off. Thanks again to Talking With the Dogs and their new Dog Talk Conversation Starter Cards for sponsoring this episode. Get your limited edition Dog Talk Cards by visiting DogTalkCards.com and use the code WOL10 for 10% off, plus free shipping if you order two or more boxes. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hi there! This is Krista with Episode #168 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. We are about to get into all of the benefits of coconut oil for your dog, but did you know that it is considered to have natural antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal properties? Well, I use coconut oil every day to brush Winston's teeth and he just loves the taste. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Co-Founders of Coco Therapy, and sisters, Charisa Antigua and Carmina O’Connor come from long line of coconut oil producers. Their family has been growing coconuts and making coconut oil for three generations in their family farm in the Philippines.  Their in-depth knowledge about coconut oil and fats, along with their certification in Companion Animal Nutrition, Charisa and Carmina are uniquely well-informed on animal nutrition and fats and lipids. Hello, dog lovers. Are you confused about giving your dog coconut oil? I think there's a lot of confusion out there. But we are here with Charisa Antigua and Carmina O'Connor, and they're going to help dispel the top coconut oil myths that are going out there and why it is very healthy to give your dog coconut oil. So ladies, I want to welcome you to the show. I've been so excited to have you on. Hi Krista. Thanks for having us. We're happy to be here. Good, good, good. Well, why don't you both quickly introduce yourselves and tell us what got you into animal nutrition. And especially passionate about coconut oil? I can start. I'm Carmina O'Connor. I'm Charisa. And we come from a family that's been making and producing coconuts. And we have a family farm and facility that has been making coconut products for three generations. So we've always been into coconut oil and coconut products. And so it's been a huge interest of our families. We've known the health benefits since we were little kids growing up, my grandmother used to use it for us, you know as medicine and food. And we also used to use it for our pets growing up. So that's how we got into it. And we've always been into animals and animal nutrition as well. You can tell them yeah, we've long time ago, decades ago, we did want to become veterinarians, but you know, the path we choose isn't necessarily the paths that's chosen for you. But we did take our we've completed our certification in companion animal nutrition with the University of Illinois. So that's one good thing that we did about over a year ago. So it really just helped layer all our knowledge, our love for nutrition and animals altogether. And I love coconut oil, which is why we started Coco Therapy. Three Types of Coconut Oil Okay, well, let's first break it down. There are three types of coconut oil. Can you tell us about the differences? Yeah, basically, the main types of coconut oil is the Therapeutic Grade coconut oil, which is what we sell and what we have. It's virgin coconut oil. It's unrefined and it's cold pressed. Ours is organic and non GMO verified as well. But this is really high levels of medium chain fatty acids, specifically lauric acid and very low moisture content. You do have cosmetic grade coconut oils and a lot of those are actually refined coconut oil so they can be bleached and you use hexane to extract the oil. They are deodorized a lot of them doesn't have any smell or taste of coconut. They are used in shampoos and conditioners for cosmetic reasons. So that's refined that's refined coconut oil and or that's yeah, and then there is also food grade coconut oil, which is meant for food and cooking. It's also it can be refined or unrefined. So virgin or not virgin either or, and the levels of lauric acid are also could be lower. So those are the main three different kinds of coconut oil. Okay, so if a coconut oil product says extra virgin, Is that any better? Is Extra Virgin Coconut Oil Better? No, there's actually no such thing as extra virgin when it comes to coconut oil. virgin coconut oil just means it's been unrefined they did not use any chemicals to make it to extract the oil from the coconut. Extra virgin is used in the olive oil industry for pressing. So when they say extra virgin, it's a first press for olive oil. But it doesn't work that way for coconut. So if they say extra virgin coconut oil, it's probably a marketing ploy. You can only press coconut oil once Yeah, you should press coconut oil once Yeah, once. Yeah, unlike olive oil, you're able to press the olives multiple times. So the word extra virgin applies to first press olive oil, but not coconut oil. Why Do Some Not Think Coconut Oil is Healthy? Okay, well, that's good to know. All right, let's the elephant in the room a couple of years ago. I mean, everybody was talking about coconut oil, and I love it for myself, I love it for my dog. And then a large dog magazine, all of a sudden published that coconut oil is not good for our dogs, everybody beware. And it became this big scare tactic almost. What happened? Well, I think there's first of all, coconut oil and fats in general is so misunderstood. Because there's a lot of people or some people who don't understand fats that say fats will cause inflammation. But what they don't really get into is there's so many different kinds of fats, and so many different kinds of reasons why fats cause inflammation. So an article came out and said that coconut oil specifically causes metabolic endotoxemia. So it sounds like a very scary word, but all it is it's basically metabolic is toxins produced in your body, metabolically. So are they say when you eat coconut oil, um, toxins are released in your blood, and it's bad for you, and it causes inflammation, but it's not quite accurate because so endotoxins live in our bodies have a bacteria, gram positive and gram negative bacteria good and bad. And there's, um, an endotoxin that lives on the outer casing of gram negative bacteria, called lipo polysaccharide, or LPs. So what happens is, we all know that coconut oil kills bacteria, specifically bad bacteria, it's antibacterial, right? So when you eat coconut oil, it kills the gram negative bacteria in your gut, in your intestines, what happens is, then the LPs and the gram negative bacteria is released into your bloodstream. But what's not mentioned is the LPS is dead. LPs are dead endotoxins fragments fragments of the bacteria. So what happens is when it gets out of your intestines and goes into your bloodstream, our body detects it, which is meant to and does a low level inflammation, create the white blood cells goes to these dead LPS attacks it and gets rid of it flushes it out, that's what the white blood cells, so it's low grade inflammation, when that's gone, it's gone. That's the end of that. And just to know that low grade inflammation is actually not harmful for your body or your dog's body. It's actually the way your body works every day, our bodies actually do that to get rid of any toxins in our body. So I think the fact that it was really hyped up to be something that causes it, and extremely dangerous was the angle that the article was going to towards. So the inflammation is a temporary action. And it's actually what teaches babies and puppies to have a healthier immune system. What people don't understand is Mother's Milk is has a high level of medium chain fatty acids found in colostrum. Yes, lauric acids. And so what happens is when babies or puppies drink mother's milk, it has high levels of lauric acid, it does the same thing. It's antibacterial. You know, when puppies and babies drink mother's milk, it prevents them from getting sick, which is why they say Oh, it's good to keep on the mother's milk, the first year of their life or for puppies that went on went up to when they're being weaned, it prevents them from getting sick, because they have that antibacterial function in the milk. It will kill you know, any bacteria or any invading bacteria, and infection. And there's a very low level immune response, and it trains the puppy or human babies to have a stronger immune system. So inflammation in itself is not a bad thing. It's actually a good thing, because it helps your immune system get stronger. How to Learn About Studies Right? That makes sense when you put it like that. So when this article came out, you know, they said there are studies, were those studies really on point or were they even on virgin coconut oil, like what you guys are recommending? That's a really, really good question. I'm glad you brought that up, because a lot of negative studies that talk negatively about coconut oil, if you look at the study carefully, a lot of them are using refined or hydrogenated coconut oil. Some of them are even mixed with beef tallow or other long chain fats. So they do that a lot just to do the diets in dogs. So that's, you know, one of the things that people don't realize they say coconut oil, they use that term so loosely and broadly. The other thing is the source of the study. Every time a study comes out, you have to look at who's funding it. You know this. It’s just science. And the study actually came out from a company that was promoting probiotics for animals, which obviously would help, you know, build their case for leaky gut, leaky gut. Exactly, which is why they said, Oh, it causes leaky gut and you know, and anything I feel like within the past couple of years, anything with the word coconut oil in it, and the article, whether it's good or bad, seems to have a high attraction towards, you know, searching, clickbait, that type of thing. That this article that you're mentioning, they also said a lot of negative things about lauric acid, and saturated fat in general. So I feel like they and they were promoting the idea that lauric acid is actually bad for you. So aside from the inflammatory response, they were saying lauric acid is very bad for you. It's a saturated fat, which again, is not accurate or long chain. They said it was a long chain saturated fat, but lauric acid is a medium chain saturated fat and not a long chain. This article actually stated that it was not a medium chain fat, which is not true. I mean, it not only are there studies that show that metabolically. Lauric acid behaves like a medium chain fat when it's metabolized. But if you look at chemistry databases, like ChemSpider, those type of chemistry oil databases, or the American Oil Chemistry Association, they classify lauric acid as a medium medium chain fatty acid so there is no I don't know there's really no question no question that it's a Yeah, but this article again said that it was a long chain fat so that was inaccurate. Difference Between MCTs and LCTs Well, to better prepare us for this information, can you dive into what is the difference between an MCT or medium chain triglyceride, as well as the long chain triglycerides, what is the difference in the fat itself? All fats are classified as their their chains of carbon atoms. So all fats are made out of carbon atoms, the longer the chain of carbon atoms, it's called a long chain fat, and the shorter the easier is to be metabolized. So long chain fats are 8-14 carbon atoms and higher up to 24. Whereas medium chain fats are 12 carbon atoms and lower and the reason why it's important is the body metabolizes these fats differently. So coconut oil is a medium chain fat. And all Coconut oil contains different fatty acids. Fatty acids are basically fat molecules. And there's different kinds of fatty acids. So lauric acid is one of them caprylic acid, these are all fatty acids, and they all have a different length of carbon atoms. So lauric acid is 12 carbon atoms capric is 10. Caprylic is eight carbon atoms. So which is why Capric and Caprylic products are broken down very rapidly by the by your liver and lauric acid a little bit longer, just because it's just a bigger molecule. So that's when they say medium chain fats, it's basically a shorter chain, a smaller molecule of fat. Is that true? The MCT s are easier? Yeah, much easier. So that's a difference. And it's not just easier to digest, it has a different metabolic pathway of how it's digested. All long chain fats need bile acids to be broken down. So the bile acids will emulsify the triglycerides. And then you need pancreatic lipase to break down it to into an individual medium chain fatty acids. Then it goes through the intestinal wall and it's carried by Kailo microns through the lymphatic system and it goes to the you know to different organs and parts of the body like adipose fat tissues, those are long chain fats. medium chain fats don't go through that it doesn't need bile for emulsification. It doesn't need pancreatic lipase to break down it goes straight through the portal vein and to the liver and it's broken down and as energy, ketones, that sort of thing, which is why medium chain fats are outstanding for even people who need to be in a low fat diets or animals or people with pancreatitis or any lipid disorders such as lymphatic ectasia. PLE. So any animal or people that cannot tolerate fats? medium chain fat is tolerable for them because they don't need the Pancreatic lipase or the bile enzymes. So make sense? Yeah, okay, so just to reiterate, people if your dog has pancreatitis, or has had it in the past, coconut oil is a good oil to give your dog you should not feel that oh my dog isn't a candidate because of the pancreatitis. And this makes sense. I didn't know that it bypasses the pancreas. Fascinating. And it goes for all, you know, there's a lot of dogs that need to be on low fat diets for whatever reason, right? So, but fat is an important macronutrient that animals need for energy, you cannot be without fat for that. So you have to substitute it with a fat that's healthy and that can be metabolized differently, which is why medium chain fats or medium chain MCTs are one of medically looked at as one of the healthiest and safest fats to give any person or dog with lipid disorders. Okay, well, we are going to take a quick sponsor break. So ladies, if you'll hold on, we will be right back. Thanks to our friends at AnimalBiome for sponsoring today's episode.  They are brilliant at applying science to improve your dog’s health.  Did you know that 60-70% of your dog’s immune cells are located in the gut microbiome?  And when their microbiome is out of balance, it can lead to inflammation associated with GI and skin issues.  My dog Winston was tested and the results were shocking!  He had way too many harmful bacteria and too few strains of the beneficial bacteria.  No wonder his immune system was always compromised!  Thanks to the AnimalBiome team for getting him back on track so that he can live a much healthier life!  Isn’t it time to test your dog’s gut health? Learn more by going to https://animalbiome.com/home and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off! Coconut Oil as Carrier Oil for CBD Welcome back everybody. Charisa and Carmina are here to talk to us about coconut oil and how it is beneficial for our dogs and ourselves. And this has been a little science class almost which I don't know if anybody listening has taken canine nutrition, but it is going back to school chemistry, biology there’s a lot to it. And I think we need to remind ourselves that dogs do not need carbohydrates to live. They thrive on proteins and fats as we're talking about right now. So ladies, I have heard you know, the CBD industry is huge. And everybody is jumping on this bandwagon. And some people have said, Oh, we can't use coconut oil as the carrier oil for CBD because it causes inflammation. What do you say to that? I think that's the most unfortunate fallacy I've ever heard. Because coconut oil is actually the best carrier oil for CBD because it's been shown to cross the blood brain barrier. There's actually studies in Japan that have shown that lauric acid itself, if it's not metabolized by the liver into ketones, it will cross the blood brain barrier and the brain will convert it to ketones. Brain ketones, which is different. So to use CBD with coconut oil, it's outstanding because you can bring that CBD straight to the brain. And the funny thing is to say that it's inflammatory is actually quite hilarious because coconut oil is the most anti inflammatory fat there is because coconut oil is a saturated fat, right? It's saturated with hydrogen atoms. Therefore it is stronger than a poly unsaturated fat or mono unsaturated fat. I've seen a lot of CBD that uses olive oil, for example, as a carrier, which is actually mono unsaturated. Yes, and it oxidizes quite rapidly compared to coconut oil. So that would be even more pro inflammatory than coconut oil. Cholesterol and Coconut Oil That's a great point. Well, since we're talking about fats, how is coconut oil when it comes to cholesterol? Because some people that is one of the myths, Oh, can't give it to myself for my dog because it's going to clog our arteries. In terms of dietary cholesterol, cholesterol is the lowest collected zero to 14 PPM as they call it parts per million. So if it's zero or less than 14, coconut oil, it hardly has it's a cholesterol free food. So coconut oil compared to say butter, it has a lot of cholesterol has very little cholesterol. And if you if you eat coconut oil, it actually improves your overall cholesterol level. The ratio overall cholesterol with the HDL, so it actually improves your HDL cholesterol levels and there's many studies that prove that yeah, so you don't have to worry about cholesterol increasing on their cholesterol levels from oil coconut oil increased. Yeah, well actually coconut oil actually helps increase levels of HDL to which you want higher HDL compared to the LDL, which is the harmful cholesterol. And you know, quite contrary to popular belief, when you consume fat, it, it doesn't really provide that cholesterol in your body. A lot of you know, people think that if you eat cholesterol, that's what gives you cholesterol, but your liver actually creates the cholesterol. So the way it's metabolized, actually, is what makes a huge difference. One of the metabolites, what people have found that dietary cholesterol, you know, remember, I don't know if you've heard of studies, so eggs are very high cholesterol, shrimp, etc. So if you have a high cholesterol, they say, oh, eat a low cholesterol diet, no eggs for, you no shrimp, anything that has high cholesterol. But what the latest studies and is, I think widely accepted knowledge is for dietary cholesterol that you eat, and you know that only 1/10 of the cholesterol in that diet is actually used by your body. So it doesn't even impact the cholesterol in your levels. But in your body, what impacts it is your liver making cholesterol. So that's it's hereditary. Exactly. But But again, but see, this is what people don't know about animals. So that's what we just you know what we talked about pertains to human beings, but animals, cats and dogs, mainly, they naturally have a higher HDL level than people. So animals by design, biologically, they can process a lot more fat than people, they actually eat a highly saturated fat diet, and they can handle it way better than people can just because of their naturally higher HDL levels in their body. I don't know if you've heard about the study. I can't remember the name of the doctor that came up with this study where he allowed wild animals and dogs to forage on food that they provided. And that what they realized, raw food/raw fat… and they found out that the wolves, they did it with wolves and the dogs, they would gorge on fat first and be full, you know, filled with a fat and then he would do protein next and then the entrails which would contain some of the carbs. So they would eat an extremely high amount of fat and without any risk of heart disease or arthrosclerosis, or any of that type of disease. Even More Benefits of Coconut Oil And that was self selection. That makes a lot of sense. All right, everybody, we just busted some myths. Coconut oil does not cause pancreatitis. It is not inflammatory. It is. Yes, it's an antibacterial, but it's not going to kill the good bacteria in your gut or your dog's gut. And then we just talked about how coconut oil is not high in cholesterol. So ladies, let's go down the list of all the benefits of feeding our dogs, coconut oil. Coconut oil is again a macronutrient that it doesn't it may not supplying vitamins and minerals, but it is a macronutrient that does supply the healthy beneficial fats. So it helps your body boost the immune system. The way we explained it earlier. It actually protects antiviral, antifungal, antimicrobial, so it helps detox an animal's body. It helps with inflammation and helps to heal the gut and then the mucosal lining. And to bring it down to level we get a lot of letters on a daily basis. And we just got one today actually a little chihuahua, where it helps with allergies. And there's just so many reasons for allergies. And it could probably a lot of it is because of an overactive immune system. So coconut oil helps modulate an overactive immune system, which is why it helps with allergies. caprylic acid is known to kill yeast. So if the dog has systemic yeast issues, just feeding coconut oil helps with the systemic yeast issues. You can also use it to clean the ears like topically. It's also great for dogs and again, I cannot. I mean there's so many studies both with animals and people how it helps with seizures, tons of studies with Alzheimer's, you know, dementia, because frankly, the ketones in the brain as well feeds the brain that help gives energy to your brain cells. Exactly. So there's so many studies that help that provide…in fact, a lot of the people that buy our MCT oil, which is strictly has a higher level of Caprylic and capric acid a little bit lower lauric acid, it is really helping the dog mitigate the seizures. It's also great for animals with cancer just because it's anti inflammatory as well. Oh my gosh. And when you talk about topical treatments, I know wounds and cuts. Some people say it repels mosquitoes and fleas. Have you guys heard that as well? Yeah, we've heard that and the Philippines and we were kids. We would play outside we would get head lice. My grandmother used to put coconut oil in our hair and just just rub it in our scalp. None of those nasty lice killers that you get are poisonous. Yeah, it's basically just coconut oil in our hair and scalp and it kills them. So we've heard a lot of customers that would say that when their dog would get flea infestations. Dogs and basically smother the fleas. That's really Yeah, helpful. You can rub it on their paws and their noses for Cracked dry skin and wounds. It's basically a first aid kit in a jar. Exactly. Well, speaking of in the jar, of course, and this is for everybody that's seeing this on video, I have the Coco Therapy, virgin coconut oil that I use to brush Winston's teeth, because it is anti microbial. And he loves it. I mean, he he's standing there waiting for that jar to be open and it tastes great. So why not? And you know, one of the world's perfect proteins is eggs. So if you don't give your dog raw eggs, you can always do you know, a little scrambled eggs in coconut oil. And oh my gosh, your dog will thank you for that. You're lucky dog. He's very lucky. So we just went through some of the benefits. There are a lot of benefits and Coco Therapy. I just have some of the products here. For those again on video. I mean, it makes me hungry, and I should probably try one of these. You've got Maggie's macaroons, and just plain old coconut chips. Delicious. The pina colada, coconut and pineapple. I mean, what dogs don't and cats. I'm sure don't go crazy for this. So I would love for you guys to share. How do people find out more about the Cocoa Therapy products? Where do they go and learn more about the facts about coconut oil and your actual products and how they're made. They can go to our website, cocoa therapy.com. And we have a blog section. If they click on blogs, and they can read we publish about two blogs a month, every other week. And we talk about everything from the benefits the science, ketogenic diets, so they can learn up and metabolic endotoxemia. So they can learn more about coconut coconut oil differences. So that's the best way to learn. I think it's via our blogs. Yeah, I think you sign up for the newsletters too get like our newsletters that we send out. Website: www.CocoTherapy.com Social Media: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CocoTherapy Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cocotherapy/ Oh, those are great. Yes. Okay, perfect. Well, hopefully, we have piqued everybody's interest that Coco Therapy is you guys are the experts on coconut oil. And you've given us a lot to think about that it's not scary that it is actually beneficial. What would you like to leave us with today? I think that people should try it. Because a lot of veterinarians actually recommend it is actually very safe. It's great to use topically and orally, we recommend that people rotate it with fish oil as well just just, you know, to have an overall more variety in their diet, and just basically not to be afraid of it. Yeah, I think knowledge knowledge is the more you know, the less fear you'll have. So basically just learn more about it. Yeah. And Krista just really quick. My dog is actually on a Ketogenic style diet where she has a higher fat content and lower carbs. And this is just how she eats on a normal basis. So and she's very Yeah, yeah, she gets about 69% fat in her diet, and about 30% protein. And doing amazing, I'm sure Doing fantastic. Well, ladies, thank you for setting us straight. I want to just tell you how much I appreciate you being on. I know it's been a while since we chatted. But you know, we're not the only ones in the world that say coconut oil is amazing. Don't believe everything that you read. And if you are looking at a study, really dissect it, you know, what are they looking at? What are they using, and you guys have to educate yourselves again to be the best advocate for your dog. So, ladies, thank you for being here today. I'm going to put all of your links in the show notes as well. And we'd love to have you back on. Thanks for having Thanks, Krista. Thanks so much for having us. Thanks again to the team at AnimalBiome for sponsoring this episode.  Learn more by going to animalbiome.com and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off.  Your dog will thank you! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Happy New Year everyone! This is Krista with Episode #167 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Canine Cognitive Dysfunction, or CCD, is the medical term for age related dog dementia. And it is a progressive disease that is more common than you might think. And studies show that about 50% of dogs over the age of 11 display at least one sign of CCD. And for dogs 15 to 16 years of age, the prevalence goes up to 68%. Now, it's a difficult process to watch a beloved dog go through, and many dogs with CCD lose all pleasure in their life, so they no longer respond to their own name. They stare at walls, they don't engage socially, they urinate inside, won't eat, don't perk up. So there are things that can be done to slow the progression and the key is to keep an eye out for the symptoms. And the sooner you act, the better the outcome and it can be as simple as a change in diet, the addition of certain supplements, bodywork, light, exercise, and of course enrichment activities. Last but not least, play your part with lots of patience and affection. You know time with our pups is limited, so savor every minute with them. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Lisa Spector's Juilliard degree has gone to the dogs, and she couldn't be more thrilled. Spector's piano recordings for dogs are soothing pets in over 1,500 shelters worldwide. Featured on NPR, The CBS Early Show, CBS Australia, and DOGTV, Lisa is the only classical pianist to reach Billboard’s Classical Top 20 Chart with pet music.  Lisa is the host of The My Zen Pet podcast and the founder of The Dog Gone Calm Club. Her latest album, Dog Gone Calm, Vol. 1 can be heard on all streaming channels. Hello dog lovers and thanks so much for tuning in to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. I am super excited to have the Pet Calming Maestro Lisa Spector with us today. And we're going to be talking about dog gone calm and the benefits of canine sound therapy for both ends of the leash. And I want you to make sure that your pups are around for this segment because Lisa is going to be playing some live music samples that your dog will for sure enjoy. So Lisa, thank you. Thank you for being with us today. Thank you so much, Krista. It's an honor to be here. Well, we're gonna have some fun. So before we get into it, you've got a lot of credentials, so I need for you to introduce yourself and share. How did you come to be the Pet Calming Maestro? Well, in 2017 NPR called me the Pet Calming Maestro and I decided to stick with that. I joke in my podcast, that my Juilliard degree has gone to the dogs, and I couldn't be more thrilled. I did not plan to be playing concerts and make recordings for dogs when I went to Julliard, but sometimes the best things in life happen by seemingly accident. My biggest passions are dogs and music. And they just came together. Way back in 2003 when I was a volunteer puppy raiser for Guide Dogs for the Blind and professionally, I owned a music school. And I started wanting to learn about different prescriptions of music that would calm my four year olds, a wild class of four year olds, and they'd come in happy and screaming and I needed to get their attention. So I started exploring different kinds of music. And in the process, I found music that helped calm and focus them in 30 seconds flat. And I looked over to my I was volunteer puppy raiser for Guide Dogs for the Blind. And I looked over to my four month old puppy and he was snoozing in no time. And I thought I am onto something. And that's how it all began. That is so cool. Well, another thing that people need to know is that you are the only classical pianist to reach Billboard’s Classical Top 20 chart with pet music. That is pretty cool. I was pretty excited about that one. Yeah. What is Sound Therapy for Dogs? Lisa, let's talk about sound we all know. I mean, we're filming this in July, we just had July 4, come and go. I know we're not releasing until the beginning of the year, but fireworks, one of the huge stressors and that is sound. So we have to remind ourselves that dogs can hear three times higher frequencies and sound than we can and because it is is such a huge sensorial pathway for our dogs, it's cool to know that music can reach them so deeply and calm them. So can you talk to us about the science and what's going on? Sure. So first of all, the dogs definitely hear their Hertz range is much greater than ours, it's not quite three times, it's like two to two and a half. And then cats hear twice as high, almost twice as high. And far as dogs, which is you have to think about distance, location and frequency. So even though this is being published, the beginning of the year, and many parts of the Year New Years, the fireworks, I know in the UK, the fireworks gone for weeks, like three weeks into January. And when you think about sound, every year, first of all, it gets worse in our human households. Because technology, there's more and more technology and more and more appliances make beeps at the end of when the washing machine is done the dryer the dishwasher. Then there's the technology beeps of the emails and all the dings and the text messages. Well, we know what those sounds are. We know those are safe sounds we know what they're for. Dogs don't know that dogs are always trying to orient the source of the sound. Where's it coming from? Is it safe? Is there a pattern? Dogss are always looking for pattern? Is there a pattern do I need to protect us and they're always on alert. And every dog is different, you might have a dog who's so sound phobic, and it's very obvious because he goes under the bed or hides in the bathtub during construction noise or thunderstorms or fireworks. And you might have a dog who's just panting and pacing. And maybe a dog who's just not comfortable can't settle down. So it's all different degrees. And sometimes the most subtle signs of sound sensitivities are right in front of us, and we don't always see them. So dogs are always trying to alert where is the sound coming from? And is it safe. So I know like for example, when I years ago, when I drink a lot of tea, when I got a water kettle, that pinged at the end, you know, when the water is boiled the first time when I had two dogs at the time, and the first time the dogs were in the dog bed, and they looked up and they're like, where's that sound? Is it safe? Where is it coming from? And you know, a few minutes later, they put their head down. So the next day, they didn't lift their heads, they just lifted their ears. The third day, they didn't do anything, because by the third day they knew it was safe, nothing happened. So they're always trying to figure out that information. But we also have to keep in mind dogs hear a higher frequency assuming it's you know, a younger dog that hasn't lost hearing a higher frequency than we do and a longer distance. So they may also be hearing sounds that we don't and so sounds like the buzz very commonly dryers you know, the buzzer goes off, the clothes are dry. I've had people tell me oh my god, my dog is so afraid to go into the garage. It turns out he wasn't afraid at all of the garage. He was afraid of the buzzing of the dryer in the garage. So nowadays, the good news is some appliances. I'm noticing they're making it optional to turn off those sounds. And I invite your listeners to turn off those sounds. Even if you don't have a sensitive sound sensitive dog, or you don't think you do very oftentimes, it's really common dogs change behavior as they mature. I have a 13 year old lab who used to be bombproof with like pretty much anything destruction. She's not anymore. And so she's did fine during the fireworks, but she is more sound sensitive. She's just you know, she's 13 she's always is it safe? All right. So canine sound therapy to the rescue. What is it? So canine sound therapy is music designed for dogs. Sometimes it's written for dogs. I have one piece written by a current day composers, Zach Gulaboff Davis is on my album. Sometimes it's music I take you know, I'm a classical pianist, so I take the great composers, Bach and Beethoven and Chopin and Mozart. I can't make that music any better. But sometimes there's some subtle little things I can do to it. That is more conducive to calming dogs for example, I have a Chopin Prelude. It starts out fortissimo. It is really loud, that could charge your dog's nervous system I want to discharge so all I do is I take that fortissimo really loud. I play a pianississimo which is very soft. I play it at a slow tempo, and it has a very steady beat. So the components of canine sound therapy are lower frequencies. So I'm going to come back to that to lower frequencies at the end because it has the longest explanation. Slow down tempo, soft and long legato lines that you'll hear in this sample I'm going to play for you and your listeners. So long legato means how we use our voice. So this comes back to lower frequencies. When you're talking, you know, saying goodnight to Fido, at the end of the day, you usually instinctually just go into a lower, long legato voice, good girl, good boy, that's legato and it's slower. If your dog is crossing the street and you see a car coming guaranteed, you're not going to be using a low voice, you're going to be using a high pitch short staccato. And I don’t want to say it. My dog’s right here, and very calm, but short staccato, you're going to call them very quickly, in short sounds because that charges their nervous system, which is what you want to do when you want to get their attention and basically change their pattern, you know, come right to you. So how we use our voice and how we use the sounds in our, in our environment, in addition to music and canine sound therapy can be really helpful. Music in Shelters Yeah, that makes sense. And I love to tell the listeners that this works. So well. I mean, this is science, that your music is played in shelters and rescue organizations because of the calming effect, right? One of my greatest honors, seriously of my life is that the music I've recorded for dogs has helped increase adoption rates in shelters, for several reasons. One is because it's for both ends of the leash, so it's calming for people. So when people are visiting shelters, and they're in a calm state hearing this music, they stay longer, and they stay longer visit, visitors stay longer, and then adoptions increase, and then also dogs become calmer. And I'll never forget one of the first stories. You know, when I started this project when I was in my previous company, and I started the music in shelters program, a shelter manager called me in tears and said, Lisa, I am crying because this is the first phone call I've been able to make from my desk for 10 years. Because the dogs are quiet. They stopped barking and I have to tell you about Trello a dog who was here a year and had so much anxiety and couldn't get adopted. And then he listened to your music. And he calmed down and he got adopted. That's beautiful. I mean, that says it right there. That's amazing. That's why I'm so proud that my Juilliard degree has gone to the dogs. Yes, exactly. Well, why don't we take this opportunity to have you play a little bit because I'm sure the listeners would like to get a taste of what this canine sound therapy would sound like and I can listen to you play forever. So let's just take a few minutes, we're going to listen to Lisa and if your dog is around, just watch them during this part of the episode. You know, how are they reacting? What are they doing? So Lisa, I'm gonna let you take it away. Lisa Plays a Calming Piece on Her Piano Sure, I just gonna say one thing is I'm going to circle back to the lower frequencies because that’s what this piece is about. This is my own arrangement of a Vilvaldi piece, the four seasons for violin solo, which is a high frequency beautiful instrument but a high frequency that could charge your dog's nervous system and string orchestra. So I rearranged it for left hand only there's three reasons I play for left hand only. One is because lower frequencies which my left hand is playing in this case I've talked about calms the canine nervous system. Two is because I had hand injury five years ago and for two years, I couldn't use my right hand at the piano. I'm playing concerts with two hands but it gave me good exposure to left hand music. And three is because my dog Gina loves it when I have my right hand free to pet her when I'm playing the piano. Of course. You're so talented. Bravo. Beautiful. Lisa. Gina's snoring I don't know if you can hear. Of course she is. Well, Winston is right by me curled up and snoring as well. Beautiful. Are there other types of music that dogs do best with? Obviously, classical piano is very calming for them. But wasn't there a study that said, reggae is also good music for dogs? Studies About Music that Calms Dogs The one I had this idea back in 2003, there had only been one research study in 2001 by an Irish behaviorist, Deborah Wells. And she had done a study actually in San Francisco testing different kinds of music in a control group and also TV sounds on dogs in the shelter environment and found that classical music was conducive to calming the dogs in the shelter environment, causing them to lay down, stop panting, and so forth. And I wasn't surprised at all by that I've had dogs my entire life and they always gravitated towards the piano. But here's the thing. All classical music is not created equally, if I put on a classical music station, and back in the days before it was an app, and it was timed, you know everyone at three o'clock it was programmed to charge the human nervous system because everyone generally gets tired, you know, the mid afternoons, and they might have the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, with 140 piece orchestra or Tchaikovsky, 18 film overture with cannons coming out. That is not what you want to be playing for dogs event like Rachmaninoff second piano sonata, that's like virtuostic and loud and fast. That's not what I want to play when my I wanted to calm my dog. So first of all, all classical music isn't created equal. And then second of all, since then, there have been many, many studies. And one of them did say that reggae was helpful for calming dogs, I haven't tried it, I'm just will say the classical has worked for my dogs and the dogs that I know and the dogs that I've cared for. And every dog is different. So I would say, play different things for your dog at different volumes, I want to get back to talking about volume that's so important, because you don't want to play it too loud, but play different kinds of music and see Do they gravitate towards the source of the sound do they go towards the speakers do they go away. However, there's a big variable component in that which is you. We love our dogs, because they love us so much. And they will do anything to be near our side. So if you're in a household where your teenager’s playing rap in one room, your husband's watching a football game in another and you're listening to jazz in another, they're gonna put themselves in the middle of that cacophony of sound or near their favorite person. So people say all the time, like, well, I play violin, I play flute, that's high frequency, my dog’s always near me, of course, because you're attached to that instrument. But play, you know, flute on the stereo and see what happens to them. So I like to say I create music that is really designed to calm and soothe both ends of the leash. It’s based on research for dogs, but it also helps humans. And I’m going to cut you off right here. We're just going to take a quick sponsor break, and we're going to continue this amazing conversation. So hold on everybody. Thanks to our friends at AnimalBiome for sponsoring today's episode.  They are brilliant at applying science to improve your dog’s health.  Did you know that 60-70% of your dog’s immune cells are located in the gut microbiome?  And when their microbiome is out of balance, it can lead to inflammation associated with GI and skin issues.  My dog Winston was tested and the results were shocking!  He had way too many harmful bacteria and too few strains of the beneficial bacteria.  No wonder his immune system was always compromised!  Thanks to the AnimalBiome team for getting him back on track so that he can live a much healthier life!  Isn’t it time to test your dog’s gut health? Learn more by going to https://animalbiome.com/home and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off! And we are back with Lisa Spector, the Pet Calming Maestro, and Lisa, I'm sorry, I cut you off before we went on that commercial break. You know, we were talking about the types of music and you were gonna say something about reggae. Reggae for Dogs? Yeah, so it's you know, do you like it? And is it something that you want left on all day if you're home alone, I'm, I'm more of a classical music fan. So introduce your dog to different music people asked me all the time Do dogs prefer Bach, Beethoven, Brahms or Chopin? It doesn't work like that. It just doesn't work like that. It's all because there's certain parts of Beethoven there's certain parts of Bach, there's certain parts, or certain parts of Beethoven, I would not want my dog listening to if she were home alone. It's very virtuosic. A lot of surprises a lot of rest. That's what Beethoven was all about. There's other Beethoven like the opening the first movement of Moonlight Sonata, it's very predictable patterns. It's very different. So it's really not about the composer, but it's about the things I talked about earlier about the lower frequencies, the slow tempo, the predictable patterns, and so forth. And, you know, observe your dog because they're all different in my entire life. And all the dogs I've known, and I've visited and cared for and known a lot. I've only met one who had a specific preference for certain composers, certain pieces of music they recognized. Beats Per Minute Okay, so is it safe to say, music with less beats per minute, are better for dogs? If you want to calm your dog, then beats you know, generally from 40 to 100 beats per minute is a good tempo, and a consistent tempo. So in other words, like I play an orchestral arrangement, on my album, Dog Gone Calm, I played one of my favorite pieces by Algarve Commons from the Enigma Variations. It’s the Nimrod movement. But I love it for dogs, because it's very, on piano, their piano arrangement, it's very steady beat is consistent, I play this really loud section soft, and I keep that beat really, really steady. And so it's also about, you know, the pattern is not changing. It's not like in the middle of it, there's this big virtuoso section. And that happens, you know, when you're listening to classical music, which is such a broad term. I mean it is 600 years, and it could be one instrument, it could be 140 pieces, orchestra. And so it's so broad, but when you genuinely when you listen to classical music, and let's say you're listening in the car, do you ever notice you're trying to have a conversation, you're constantly adjusting the volume, because classical music, it's up and it's down, and it's up in one room, it's loud, and one room is slow and soft. And it's you know, it's constant. So I remove all that. I no longer make rearrangements of classical music, you know, unless it's just for left hand. I used to do that in my previous company. But then research came out and said, classical music that's not rearranged, is actually more conducive to calming dogs in the shelter environment. So instead of making rearrangements, I take sections, and I play things soft, and I but I'm still playing what the composer wrote. Okay, at least I know myself, you know, when we leave the house, we put classical piano on for Winston, I would assume that dogs that have separation anxiety, that if you play said music, just when you're leaving, then it's probably going to have the opposite effect. Then they say, Oh, they're playing that music. That means they're leaving me Oh, my gosh, I'm gonna freak out. So play it at other times as well, to get them used to it. When to Play Calming Music for Your Dog Exactly. So think of music that's designed for dogs. Think of canine sound therapy as a thing. It's invisible, but it's a thing. So just like you'd want to condition your dog that let's say your dog doesn't like I was training Gina, she's older and trying to get her to use a ramp. And she's not really comfortable. So I'm training her that the ramp means cookies are coming, you know, so I introduce her to the ramp, she gets cookies, and then she takes one step and she gets more cookies and she takes so she I'm changing her association. But it's it's kind of easier in a mindset because it's a big physical thing. Music is also a thing, it's just invisible. So you can actually condition your dog that the music means to be calm. So that's why veterinarians use it prescriptively use my music prescriptively to condition your dog that listen together. You know have a ritual like before bedtime. Have a half an hour where you’re just listening together and then the dog begins an association of I get it this music means to be calm, everything's good with the world. My person is with me they build that association and do that you know for about a week or so before you gradually introduce it when you're when you're gone. And the other thing I just want to get back to because it's so important is volume. Because people do this all the time, particularly when the dogs are alone. It doesn't need to be loud it even when there's fireworks and all that it's not about overshadowing sounds, it's not going to overshadow the construction going on whenever it's about calming the canine nervous system. So oftentimes, you know, I'm so proud that music I've recorded is being played in 1500 shelters, but I go into one of those shelters and it's too loud, and it drives me crazy. And then dogs hear, you know, their hertz capacity range is so much more than us. And I think, Oh, my God is going to drive them crazy. I would go nuts. If I heard my own music way too loud all day long, I would just go bonkers. So play it at a gentle volume for you, and maybe then drop it down a tiny bit notch up in volume for your dog. Because it's not about blasting it. It's about what is comfortable for your dog. When to Play Music for Your Dog Thank you for adding that that makes sense. So in addition to the scary fireworks or the thunderstorms, other instances where I can believe that this will help calm them is you know, if you have people coming over, if you have to take your dog to the veterinarian, that's not usually a good time for them. So car rides, maybe as everybody settles into bed, you know, that can be a great start. Exactly. Whenever you know, who doesn't need to be calm right now? I mean over these last few years whenever you need to de stress and decompress and you know have that time together with your dog and use it for your benefit. Because no matter how calm you want your dog to be, if you're not calm, your dog’s gonna pick up on whatever energy so work, that's why you might really want to work on both ends of the leash. And it also can be used for prevention of canine anxiety. So it's, you know, if you have a puppy or a newly adopted three year old dog, and it's like, doesn't seem to be sound phobic or sound sensitive. It's always good to start because guaranteed it can't do any harm. Right? Well, I know you probably have tons of stories of how your music has benefited calming dogs. Can you think of just one or two stories on how everybody wins? Yes. So this goes back quite a few years. And I heard so. I don't know what year was it? You know, at least 15 years ago, when all the Michael Vick dogs when that whole story, the whole fighting dogs got rescued. And we're trying many of them were, could not be rehabilitated. And my music helped several of them. And I remember Little Red, just hearing how much it helped her through her rehabilitation that she got to be she went from being a Michael Vick fighting dog against her will to being a calm pet, household member, love member of the family that could be around other dogs that could be comfortable with people that it took a long time to you know, she was so cowardly and so shy but the music helped her open up and I remember getting an email from her person. I believe her name was Susan saying Lisa for the first time she opened her belly to me. She let me touch her and your music was playing. I have to say of all the stories. Even that one surprised me that my music that I had recorded could make that much of a change in a dog I was kind of blown away. Ah Love it, love it. Well we talk about your music. How do people tune in to your music? Where do we find it? So there are several ways it's streaming my album Dog Gone Calm is streaming all the you know Apple Music and Spotify and Amazon music and all those. And by the time this is published I will have a new album with Meditating With Your Dog. That will be out and that's coming from my podcast. My Zen Pet is my podcast the first podcast with music for pet stress. And if your listeners want to get training tips with using canine sound therapy with using music to help your dog's anxiety issues go to MyZenpet.com/tips and Krista you will also win Oh, because you're a member, in my Dog Gone Calm Club, where we help you recognize your dogs sound sensitivities, we help, you know with treatment and it's not only music, I have guest experts going into everything from separation anxiety, to animal communicators to building chemistry with your dog. I mean such interesting conversations working with aggression with dogs. And then I also do monthly Dog Gone Calm concerts for the members and their dogs. It's you know, who doesn't want their dog on the Zoom screen instead of you? Exactly. Oh, people, it is amazing. Again, it's the Dog Gone Calm Club. Great for all dogs and all people. It's fantastic. And the members are wonderful as well. It's a great community. So Lisa, as we run out of time, so quickly, unfortunately, what would you like to leave us with? Before we check out today? Social: IG https://www.instagram.com/my_zen_pet/ FB http://facebook.com/myzenpet LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/lisaspector/ Website: www.MyZenPet.com I'd love to leave your listeners with a little bit of a short assignment that will help create a sound friendly canine household for you. Take a few minutes, just sit on the sofa, you have your dog. Next you sit on the sofa, take a notepad and just listen to all the sounds you hear. What do you hear inside? What do you hear outside, don't make a judgement just write them all down what you're hearing. And then after that half hour is up or you know, minutes, 15 minutes, make a checkmark next to all of the ones in your control. You can't control the motorcycle going by outside, but you can control appliance sounds more and more. So now that we can control what we turn off. You can control electronic sounds and turn off your notifications and your devices. There's a lot of ways that you can control the TV sounds, computer sounds, so forth. So see what you can do to control the sounds in your environment. So you really start to think of Sound Health for your dog is just as important as nutrition and training and exercise and all the other things that we all love to do for our dogs their sound environment. You have control over it. They don't unless you have a dog who's smart enough to turn on his own or her own playlist. You're in control of that. So I invite you to take charge of that and do what you can control and make that a sound friendly dog environment for you and your dog. Perfect advice. Lisa, this has been wonderful. And I have no doubt that our listeners learned something new today. So all of the information on how to find Lisa and those tips that she mentioned as well at My Zen Pet It's going to be in the show notes with links to everything. So everybody, thank you for tuning in. Let's have a better sound therapy world for ourselves and our dogs. And Lisa, I want to thank you for being with us today. Thank you so much Krista. I love talking to you always a pleasure. Thanks again to the team at AnimalBiome for sponsoring this episode.  Learn more by going to animalbiome.com and be sure to use the discount code WOL-20 for 20% off.  Your dog will thank you! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Happy Howl-i-days everyone! This is Krista with Episode #166 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Did you know that humans share about 85% of their DNA with dogs? Well, this fact makes dogs useful animals to study human disease processes. But researchers are particularly interested in specific diseases that affect both dogs and humans. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Billie Groom shares with us her experiences, knowledge and expertise gained from 34 years working with rescued dogs and the people who love them. She is an animal advocate, behaviorist, author, podcast host, and expert in Canine Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  Billie is the creator of UPWARD Dogology, a scientifically proven methodology for addressing anxiety and aggression, and behaviors common in adopted, rescued, and adolescent dogs.   Welcome all dog lovers to a another fantastic Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today we're hearing from an amazing person that I couldn't wait to share with you all. We have Billie Groom, and she is on the topic of canine cognitive behavioral therapy. And it is just fascinating. She is about to blow your mind. So Billyie first of all, I want to thank you for being on the Show. And I'm going to ask you to please introduce yourself and fill us in on your fascination about this canine cognitive behavior therapy. Hi, Krista. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here too. We've known each other a while. And I'm super excited to be here. Thanks so much. Yes, I am an expert on canine cognitive behavioral therapy, which did not happen overnight by any means. I started about three and a half decades ago, somewhere around there, with the goal of working with adolescent dogs in particular, rescued ones, ones with unconventional paths, although that has developed into dogs that have had wonderful upbringings and puppyhoods as well, to just to learn about why that adolescent stage is so challenging and why a lot of dogs are surrendered and euthanized during that age. Why rescue organizations have a hard time homing those dogs are a lot of them are, are brought in and to shelters as well. So I worked with them. And over the time, I created and developed a formula that follows the principles and guidelines of cognitive behavioral therapy. Well, why don't we first of all, before we get started, because there's a lot of information that you have to share, what exactly is it if I was to meet you in an elevator and you're gonna give me your speech? What is canine cognitive behavioral therapy? What is Canine Cognitive Behavioral Therapy? Well, cognitive behavioral therapy is for humans as well. And it changes perception to change behavior, which doesn't make it a better method than any other method. Conditioning methods are designed operant conditioning is designed to teach. It's designed to encourage wanted behavior and discourage unwanted behavior. If you're using both sides of operant conditioning, counter conditioning uses associative techniques and desensitization to change behavior, which then changes perception. CBT changes perception to change behavior. So that's a long elevator ride. But what that really means is that the, the formula that you follow the principles are different. The reason it works well, in the adolescent stage is because they have preconceived thought patterns, whereas puppies you're teaching. It's designed to teach. That's why operant conditioning is so good with puppies. And in particular, you know, we'd like to stick with that positive reinforcement training, but I don't work with puppies. I work with adolescent dogs and adult dogs. So the reason you get this with the adolescent dogs. Do you want me to hop right into it? Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay, so we're out of the elevator here. Yeah. Very tall building. And we like to go up and down. So what happens in the adolescent stages, you there's that just that design of operant conditioning, where it's designed to teach. Dogs in the adolescent stage often know right from wrong, they know what you're trying to get them to do, and that's when you get pet parents saying, Oh, my dog knows Come when called, My dog is just deciding not to do it. This is like teenagers, human teenagers, so they know what they're supposed to do, but they have these excitable neurons just oh, I want to go. They're not thinking about consequences. They're thinking about themselves. They're thinking about how to get their own way how to have fun. Or if you have a dog from the street, that has learned that barking and lunging keeps dogs at bay or keeps people at bay, they're just going to do this because they've learned this. And so if you continue to use methods that are designed to teach, and to encourage and discourage, this can cause them to be frustrated, and cause them to think you don't understand why I'm doing this, you're not working with my brain. You're not connecting and communicating with me and some dogs, you can just continue to use non harmful forms of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement training all the way through adolescence. When I say adolescence, I'm talking about eight months to two years, you could use that all the way through, and it totally works. Absolutely. But a lot of times it doesn't. And that's purely based on the intent of the method. CBT is intended to change perception, which is not the same as changing emotions. We don't change emotions, dogs will feel the way they feel they have their emotions. But when they perceive their environment differently, they make different decisions. And they have a different perception, which changes their emotion, which changes their behavior. So when you have dogs in the adolescent stage, without getting too deep, actually, this is, as I've been going through my three decades, I've been learning more about CBT. So when I started working with dogs, I didn't learn CBT and then apply it to dogs. I actually learned from dogs, what worked with them, and then worked with veterinarians and psychologists who informed me that my method adhered to the principles of CBT. And so then I started to really study CBT. And then recently, I've taken a course, that was put on by Dr. Kathy Murphy, who runs Barking Brains. And is part of behavioral veterinarians, the course was, and it was a four week course. And it really got into the brain development of dogs in different stages. And for me, this was completely enlightening. It completely explained why CCBT is effective in the adolescent stage based on neurogenesis, brain development versus other methods. And a lot of it is, as I said, with operant conditioning, it's just simply the design or the principles and what they're intended to achieve. But with counter conditioning, it actually has to do with the brain development. So that's my dog in the background. I don't know if he's playing with his toys, throwing it around and trying to get himself comfy and play with his story. So what happens in the adolescent stage is you, you have these excitable neurons, but they haven't quite developed inhibitory neurons. So inhibitory neurons are ones where we stop think process before reacting. So we're thinking about consequences, those develop in early adulthood. So counter conditioning relies on associative techniques, and desensitization. So when you're using those, you need inhibitory neurons, they dramatically increase the effect of counter conditioning, which is why counter conditioning can be effective in adulthood, but not so much in the adolescent stage. What else is happening is you have your hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that is memory, long term memory, and it's connected to the amygdala, which is emotions in particular fear. So these two work together. And what happens in the adolescent stage is because there's a lack of the inhibitory neurons, the hippocampus is sending what's happening around it and quickly ascending to amygdala and I'm putting this in I'm not a neuroscientist, but this is what what is literally happening. So the amygdala is saying, Oh, no, you have to be fearful of this or you have to react without stopping and thinking. What canine CBT does is actually provides dogs with that ability to reset the brain, stop, think, process, and then make a decision. That decision is not they're not being told that decision, we're not telling them how to think that's different than providing option. So canine enrichment, for example, does reach the cognitive side of the brain as what CCBT is doing. We're reaching that cognitive side of the brain that develops in that adolescent time and they make decisions differently than they do when they’re a puppy. And so we need to harness those cognitive skills. Just like think of kids, you know, they start to think differently, and they question things and they, they start to want to make their own decisions. And, you know, you can provide options, like I said, which is what canine enrichment does blue ball, green ball or go through the hoop as opposed to the tunnel, things like that. Options are different than decisions. Decision, I'm not providing dogs with options, I'm providing them with the ability to make decisions. And they make better decisions when they stop and process and think. And those are the skills that we teach. And these are done through exercise driven skills. And these do not need to be done in the challenging situations when you get desensitization. desensitization involves what it is that is stimulating that behavior. So if it's a bike, you need to desensitize the dog to bikes by having bikes there. Now it might be done with bikes really far away, or bikes being ridden really slowly controlled so that you're not flooding, you know, you're not just going to go to like a bike path and flood the dog. So I get that it does work. But to desensitize dogs to what is triggering them, triggering the stimuli exactly. You need to have it there. Whereas with CCBT, you don't we're literally practicing resetting the brain, in all sorts of different situations. And so that dog gets used to doing that, that brain going in that direction, and, and thinking and so it's doing a little bit of what the inhibitory neurons do that haven't developed. But we're doing it through cognitive reaching that cognitive side of the brain, and that's when you get teenagers that just do things without thinking they know, they know i's wrong to steal dad's car, but they just do it. That's when you get, you know, it's like, Oh, it'll be fun, if I want to do it anyway. And do I care that I don't get my allowance this week. You know, dogs do the same thing. And you hear pet parents say that. You hear them say, Oh, my, my dog was good on one walk and not the next. And we went by this one fenced yard, but and it went well, but not the other and that and they're kind of trying to figure their dog out. But it's chaotic. That's all because of the brain development happening in that adolescent stage. Well, Billie, are you the only practitioner doing this? Because in the dog world, it's kind of unheard of this approach or methodology of thinking? Who Else Does This? Well, that's interesting because I think the mindset is definitely there, you hear a lot of trainers saying, you know, we need to, to recognize their emotions, we need to provide them with options and decisions. And we need to, you know, their mindset is that way, we need to use a more holistic approach. You hear this all the time, they need CCBT to do that. So I'm not saying they can't have that mindset. But the method, if they're sticking with conditioning methods, they're not intended to do that. So they would need canine CBT to do that. So I think the mindset is definitely going that way. What's happening is because the method isn't backing up that mindset, you're getting a lot of the industry leaders, just saying, Well, you know, you need patience, you need to cope. And that's because they're trying to get through that adolescent stage into adulthood, where those inhibitory neurons, and the connectivity between the hippocampus and the amygdala starts to work again, if they can have the patience to get through that and get to that stage, then a lot of the methods that they're using, will now hop into effectiveness and become effective. But if we can get CCBT, more known and just mainstream in that adolescent stage, it's going to save a lot of dogs, it's also going to save a lot of people from going to the dark side, right? So they go and they they're what they're doing isn't working, they're not sure what to do. So a lot of my clients who come to me they're using, you know, unsavory tools and maybe aversive methods, but they don't know what else to do. And within a couple of days, they're seeing progress with what what we do, I don't tell them, they can't use those. I provide them with skills that allow them to say, hey, I don't need those anymore. Well, Billie, we're gonna get into that. And I'm excited to do a deeper dive here on how you work with your clients. But before that, we are going to take a quick commercial break. So hold on tight, everybody. We'll be right back. Thanks to our friends at Walkee Paws for being our monthly sponsor.   Walkee Paws are the world’s first patented all-in-one dog boot leggings designed to be the “better bootie” and provide you and your dog worry-free walks. 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Walkee Paws are available in different sizes, colors and patterns…functional and fashionable.  And they also have indoor sock leggings, ideal for our senior dogs that need a little extra traction to prevent slipping on indoor floors.   It took my dog Winston just a few tries with his Walkee Paws, but got used to them and now enjoys romping in the snow all winter with clean and dry paws.     Order your dog some Walkee Paws today by going to https://walkeepaws.com/ and use the discount code WOL20 to receive 20% off of your order.   While you’re there, be sure to check out all of the stylish and functional Walkee Paws products.  Your dog will thank you! Welcome back, everybody. We are having a great chat with Billie Groom on canine cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's just so fascinating. And Billie, we all know that our dogs are smart. But I think this gives them the opportunity to “actually think”, you know, they're not just going through the motions. Oh yeah, I've done this before she wants me to sit. And I'm gonna get a treat, you know. So when we left off, you gave us a taster you of how you work with your clients. Can you tell us like one of your clients right now presents a dog with X behavior? How are you using CBT to address that behavior? How do you apply this with clients? Well, CBT has its own principles. And one of those is flexibility, adaptability, creativity. So there is a difference between teaching CBT as a formula. So my clients aren't learning the formula. They're just I'm adhering to the formula when I work with them. So the first session is always Zoom. I have a lot of clients that are virtual 100%, virtual all over the world. So we do Zoom and videos. And what we're doing in that first session is establishing those platforms skills, and those develop and change as we work through the program. And it requires applications. So they will apply those skills, which are different for them and their dog, depending on many factors, one being their lifestyle. So if a dog is in a shelter, versus in a foster home versus in a home that has a busy lifestyle versus retired people, we can adapt these platforms skills. Of course, it also depends on the behavior that we're addressing the age of the dog, the personality of the dog. But to learn the formula for trainers wanted to learn the formula on how they would do that. That's what I've laid out and what I've set out, so I actually adhere to that formula. When I'm working with my clients, I'm not teaching it to them. Got it, right. So they will then go and apply these exercises and based on the dog's change in behavior, and that could be interesting, smaller changes that my clients get back to me. They may not have anything to do with the behaviors that they called me about. But they can see their dog thinking and processing, making different decisions and changing behavior in other areas. And it's such a beautiful thing. They get back to me and I I totally think because it's hard to envision when it's just explained. And then when it's applied. And this is another principle of CBT. It requires application, which sounds silly because all methods require application. But literally the changes that occur because we're resetting that dog's brain and that's practice. It's like breaking a habit. Now, it's just not you might know it's wrong to smoke. But you literally have to have your brain practice all the time, not going for that cigarette. That's how CBT works. So it's repetition, not desensitization. But that repetition happens everywhere. And once that starts to happen, we go with it. We work with it in the direction that the dog is going and this is the formula that's created So I, you know, obviously I didn't invent CBT. But just like how Pavlov created a formula that adheres to conditioning methods for dogs. This is one for CBT. So getting back to your question on, am I the only one who knows it? And does it? Yes, because trainers are really ingrained into conditioning methods. And they automatically think, if you're not doing positive reinforcement training, you're doing something negative or wrong, or something that isn't scientifically proven. And that's not true. It is scientifically proven, and it is effective. It's just mainstream dog training doesn't currently teach it. So if it were part of mainstream, then one, it would be preventing a lot of people from going to the dark side, which would be great, because they just don't have to there's nothing negative with CBT, there's no negative reinforcements, there's no anything negative about it. The other is that it would greatly decrease the number of dogs in shelters going into shelters. So I have about 150 to 200 clients per year, through this entire, and this is where I'm seeing a an incredible decrease in surrenders. Because majority of my clients, 98% of my clients have had more than one positive reinforcement trainer, certified trainer, and they're good at what they do. They are they've taken lots of courses, and they're very educated. It's just simply the method. And they were told to either euthanize or surrender, and then they don't. So a lot of this problem that's happening now, with well, it's happening now as we're speaking, but when this podcast comes out, I'm assuming it still will be a problem with just the shelters and the rescue organizations are flooded, they're really seeing a lot and it's hard to home a lot of these dogs. So it would help a lot with that. You have some tips on when we do adopt a dog from a local rescue? What would you suggest we do with them? On how to get used to this whole new life and world? Versus conditioning methods? How would we use CBT? How to use CBT when bringing home a rescue? That's a good point. So one thing Yes, I do have a lot of clients who have had their dog from puppyhood, and have had great success with positive reinforcement training during puppyhood. And then they hit adolescence. And it's challenging. So they're not all started out with an unconventional beginning. But they just have to be in that adolescent stage for my method to be effective. But back to your question, yes, if they bring in a dog, often these dogs have been exposed to positive reinforcement training. So if they continue to use that the dog perceives them as not really understanding how they think and learn and perceive them. Oh, you're still doing that method, we need the dog to perceive the person as understanding them, understanding what's important to them, and understanding how to communicate with them. So in the first four days, some of these decompression suggestions are are challenging, because they, yes, we need the dog to be healthy. And yes, we need the dog to sleep depending on where they came from, and what their you know, if they came from a foster home, you know, as opposed to a 24 hour flight, there's a big difference there. But what we can do once they've slept, which very short time period, as soon as they get in a dog, we can just use basic commands on what's important to them. So if their brain starts thinking I want inside, I want outside, I want the leash on I want out the door, in the door, in the car out of the car during play time, incorporate maybe a reset and a release or a recall into those activities. Find out if the dog knows those commands, there's a good chance they do. If they just regress back to holding up a treat to getting a dog to sit. Yeah, the dog might do that. They’re not really reaching the cognitive side of the brain. So really does depend on the dog and what the dog knows. But it's important to find out what that dog knows, work with them communicate with them, there's a there's a good chance they know basic commands. And that can become a form of your language of your communication doesn't have to be taught in the same way that puppies so we want to teach it when that cognitive side is clicking in. The dog is already thinking about what they want to do, what they know what they like, and incorporate into that. So again, it's a little bit difficult on this podcast to give specific advice because it depends on the dog and it depends on what's important to the dog. But the main idea is that instead of getting set into our heads to tick the boxes, we're going to teach sit we're going to create train. We're going to do all these and tick the boxes. Yes, the dog is food motivated, yes, the dog is crate trained. Yes, it's more important to recognize what that dog is telling us and to use those opportunities to create that language and those platform exercises. And you've said it to me before, what CBT actually is, is more of a proactive approach versus a reactive, which is all the other training methodologies is how we're approaching it. Exactly. And you hear trainers say that a lot. We want proactive prevention, great conditioning methods, run on reactive reinforcements. That's how they're designed, it doesn't make them wrong. It just makes it, you know, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. When you're trying to stick under that conditioning umbrella. Continue to use reinforcements. So that's when you'll hear, right, but I'm proactively getting the dog to sit using a reinforcement. Yes, you are. But it falls short is not the intention. It's just not what it's intended to do. I would love to teach CCBT on a larger scale teach it. I am speaking at the well by the time this comes out. I will have already spoken at the American Behavioral Society. Oh, good. Yeah. Conference, they have a conference in I'm trying to think I guess this is coming out late this year. So yes, sorry, I was trying to think it's just speak knowing that it's coming out later, I will have already spoken at this conference. And it's a lot of academia, a lot of universities that teach animal behavior. So the animal behavior conference, hopefully, that is a place that I would love to teach it because it is people that are teaching trainers and people that are going to become trainers, and they are interested in learning the formula as a whole, as opposed to teaching it individually to people, but to teach the formula as a whole. And then that's when it can make way more sense. Because to try and do it on a platform like this. Yes. Where you know, as opposed to starting at the beginning. And working your whole way through through the entirety, is really what needs to be done. I mean, that's why conditioning, when trainers go to learn conditioning methods, it's six or eight month programs, right? You're learning an entire methodology, like an entire formula. It's not something that you can just, you know, jump in the middle of and understand. But the point is exactly what you're saying it takes a completely different approach. And it's intended to do that. And that's why it's so effective with dogs in the adolescent stage. And that's why I was just featured in Psychology Today magazine as well, that was Marc Bekoff Ph.D. Congratulations Billie, that is amazing. Because it takes a psychology approach, even though that's not a canine magazine. It's based on psychology. And that's so important. Well, Billie as we are wrapping up, I'm sorry to cut you off. I know that there's so much more to learn on this. But as we're wrapping up, now we know what CBT is. What is cognitive dysfunction? When we hear that a dog has cognitive dysfunction. What does that mean? What is cognitive dysfunction? Well, it depends sometimes that's in the senior years, where their cognitive abilities decrease. So cognitive abilities, a lot are memory, just being able to associate being able to process being able to remember so humans in their older years lose their cognitive functions. And you want to keep those cognitive functions going. That's why we do crosswords. So we can stimulate cognitive skills. And we'll do that in the brains and veterinarians are very good with providing behavioral veterinarians are very good with providing advice on how to keep your senior dog cognitive skills going. And then there's also medication for that as well. In the adolescent stage, it's different. So their cognitive skills are clicking in in the sense that, for example, something like with a puppy, when you want to put a toy away, you can kind of throw a treat down a hallway and they'll go and run and get the treat. And by the time they come back, they kind of forget Oh, where did that toy, right? I forgot and the toy’s in the cupboard. But an adolescent dog either won't go got that toy because or the treat because they know the toys going in the cupboard. Or when they come back, it's like, no, I know you had that toy. And I'm pretty sure you put it in that cupboard because I heard the cupboard open and close. And my cognitive skills correlate that cupboard to opening and closing with that sound. So these cognitive skills are clicking in and they're starting to make decisions and choices based on having those cognitive skills click in and that's why we need to harness them. When we work with them. We can't just pretend they're not there. Same with children turning three to four. Right they start to think things differently and process and they say do I have to share? What happens if I don't Share the larger meaning of sharing. It's not just the action of taking crayons to somebody else and sharing them. It's the larger meaning of this is a good thing to do. And people are happy when I do it. But what if I don't do it? Do I want to share all my crayons? These are cognitive skills that are clicking in? And so that's why this example. Yeah. And so it's you see this happening in their brain. And that's, that's the difference. So there's two different answers to that dependency in your and I'm sure behavioral veterinarians that, again, that's I'm not a neuroscientist. I'm not a behavioral veterinarian, but that I'd love to work with them a lot more. I'd love to combine all our knowledge and skills and create a course, for trainers to learn with all that knowledge, because I keep learning more from these neuroscientists and these behavioral veterinarians on why my method is effective. But I have not made that collaboration and connection with them to work together to provide yet this course yet. Yeah, maybe by the time this has come out, right. Exactly happened. Right. Maybe that will of. Yeah. Well, Billie, this is just fascinating. And I thank you for being the pioneer in this area. So Billy has a lot more to share. She has her own podcast, she has written a book. So Billie, I'm sure we've piqued some interest here. So where can everybody find out more information about you and your company UPWARD Dogology? Contact Info Thank you. Yes. And thank you for this opportunity for sharing it. Krista. I really appreciate this. Website is https://www.upwarddogology.com/ . And my podcast is Dog Training Disrupted by UPWARD Dogology. And it's available on 11 platforms, and my book is on Amazon, you can just look upmy name. SOCIAL MEDIA https://www.instagram.com/upwarddogology/ https://www.facebook.com/upwarddogology/ Billie Groom | LinkedIn https://twitter.com/UDogology Wonderful. Well, all of this information will be in the show notes, of course, so people have easy access. Anything you want to leave us with today, Billie? Final Thoughts Just don't give up. It's not your fault. If what you're doing isn't working. Or if you're feeling like, you know, you're being told you don't have enough patience, or you're being told you're not. And you know, you need to cope and have patience. There are other solutions. And please express to those that you look to to the leaders in the industry, that you're hoping that they can help to provide more options that help dogs and help people who are helping dogs. I love that and in my little pea brain to clarify all that. Don't give up on yourself and don't give up on your dog. Yes, there. There are solutions were there for you. Thank you, Billie, I appreciate you being with us today. Thanks so much, Krista. And thanks, everyone, for listening. And I'm always, always here for questions and feedback and comments. Thank you so much. I want to again thank the team at Walkee Paws for sponsoring today’s episode and for making products that are both functional and stylish. Keep your dog’s paws healthy, clean and dry by ordering from https://walkeepaws.com/today. and don’t forget to use the promo code WOL20 for 20% off! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.

Hi there, this is Krista with Episode #165 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Just wanted to remind you guys that you might want to check out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend. And many would make great holiday gifts for your dog loving friends and family. And these are products that I've tried on my dog Winston, and that I know, like, and trust. And these products will also help your dog to thrive. So just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? It's a fact that dogs can not only smell our stress, but they also take on our stress. I read about a recent study in Science Daily that showed that dogs can detect with an accuracy of 93.75% changes in human breath and sweat. So in this study, the dogs could tell the difference between breath and sweat samples from people before and after a stress inducing task like fast paced arithmetic. And our odor is different when we're stressed. And of course our dogs know that firsthand. So I think the lesson here for our dogs and ourselves is let's all intend to have less stress in our lives. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Beth Miller is recognized as the #1 dog-friendly expert in the US. She is the Founder and CEO of Wagtown – a non-profit focused on helping communities become more authentically and responsibly dog friendly. Beth is also the creator of the innovative SMART Dog Park platform. Known as "the on-ramp to the dog park industry," SMART Dog Park is the only comprehensive resource dedicated to setting dog park excellence standards, providing elevated health & safety guidance, conducting top-notch research, accelerating collaboration and connections to resources/expertise, and much more. Hello dog lovers, do you want to advocate for your dog's health and wellness? Well, you're in the right place. And today I am joined by Beth Miller, who is going to share with us the effect of dog friendliness on canine health and wellness. Beth, thanks so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited. You have such great energy on your show. I can't wait. Oh, well, you're amazing. And I can't wait for you to share with us. What we're going to talk about today. So why don't you first introduce yourself and tell us why are you so passionate about how community affects the health and well being of our pups? Hmm, great question. Well, you said my name is Beth Miller. And actually my background, in addition to being an animal lover my whole life and working in obedience and CGC training and all of those things, my background was owning an ad agency. And so I had this wonderful opportunity to work on not just selling products with people, but also working on community shift projects, and catalyzing changes in how we feel about things and how that translates into our behavior. And therefore the vibrancy of the areas we live in economically from a wellness perspective. And of course, all of that trickles down into the little furry guys, right and all of our companion animals and animals in general. So when I when I was working in conservation, I decided to jump out and I wrote the program for a nonprofit called Wagtown. And the idea behind that is that we help communities go from we wish we were dog friendly to we are dog friendly, but doing it in an authentic way, very much, much more genuine, and also much more responsibly. So that's kind of our forte there. So I quit my job on September 20 of 2016. And spent about two and a half years, interviewing more than 600 people all over the US to try to figure out what seems to be this new, overused term, which is “dog friendly”. You really, really need to be there before you realize what they mean by dog friendly, and what your expectations are. And there are a lot of mismatches. So that's the mission of ours is to create those communities where the prioritization of the dog is evident. It's regular, it's prioritized, and it trickles down into the quality of our communities. Well, I just love what you're doing. And I guess I never really thought about the benefits of dogs in our communities because I just, I guess take it for granted. But it makes sense that people with dogs who do activities with them, it creates connections with other people. I know just walking my dog Winston, you know, it gets me out of the house, I get to meet other people. It's just, we're approachable when we're with our dogs. And instead of, especially in this day and age being so isolated, it's refreshing to have a neighborhood where people interact with their dogs. So I guess the first question, are dog friendly communities healthier? Are Dog Friendly Communities Healthier? I would say 1,000%. Yes. And one of the real buzz words right now, which I think sort of clarifies what the point here is, is social, emotional health. And dogs to me are the ultimate social lubricant. They bring people together, they take away our defenses that we have our walls that we have up around each other, because it gives us something common to bond about. And as a result of that, you have seen people with better attitudes, better life expectancies, their numbers are better in terms of from their cardiological health, everything, from physical wellness, to emotional wellness, to spiritual wellness, to community wellness. And if you can imagine the impact of that not everyone loves dogs. Not everyone should have a dog, right. But if we had a community where we know, on average, 68% of those people have at least one dog in those homes, that’s 68% of the population that is getting up and active more often, that they're more engaged with something they have purpose in their life of caring for something else, is a conduit to meeting other people, it's a way to support the local economy that then in turn, is more appreciative of the dog focus in that community. So you see how it trickles down, even though you think of health as being this big, behemoth. You know, insurance companies all that. This is sort of flipping it upside down and saying that the tail wags the dog, right, so when we have these wagging tails around us, and they get us up and active, they get us walking, they get us thinking they get us, connecting with people, and especially to your point, when we've been so isolated and been in so many silos. Now we're going on this journey of reentering life as it is now. But now we have a companion, because one out of three people got a dog. So that's one out of three people that are more capable, in my opinion, of really reentering into this new reality in a much more healthy way, because they have a dog in their life. And I think it's just a very powerful thing that we need to recognize and sort of promote that that would grow and become more of an accepted thing. So that we say if health is important to our community, then dogs are important to our community. I agree. Well, when do you think it happened that the majority of dog owners, at least here in the US thought of dogs as actually being a family member? How long do you think that's been the thought? How Long Have Dogs Been Considered Family Members? Well, I think it's one of those things that went up on a curve. But I do think that there was a sharp uptick. And I think what we've seen happen is like, when I was growing up, we owned a dog. And I can remember, Popcorn was her name, she would be tied to the deck post, you know, and, you know, she was a dog, and we treated her like, we would treat a dog in the 60s and 70s, which was very different than it is now you wouldn't see a dog in a stroller with it’s ear pierced and a dress on. And when I was growing up, right, but now, it's like, I can't believe you don't have an outfit for your dog. I can't believe you don't have enrichment activities for them. And I think what we've seen is that we've gone from I own a dog, to my dog is family, which by the way, is now 95% of people and a lot of those people are now switching to My dog is my child. And for some people, it's My dog is my soulmate. And when you start to say let's give the example that your dog is your child, look at what we do with children in terms of surrounding them, immersing them in enrichment activities, not just being happy and going through the motions, enriching them so that they can have a full experience and be exposed to new things and understand the world in better ways. Now we're seeing people demand that for their companion animals, in particular dogs in this case. And I think that's a wonderful evolution, because of the fact that we're now starting to recognize the similarities in the needs of a dog with our own and how we can sort of mix those two things together to make it a much stronger fabric for all of us to get where we need to be. Absolutely. And I think it's funny, I don't know when this happened, but it just seems in the last few years, like when I go to a model home, and they have these extravagant laundry rooms with room for a dog and a washbasin for the dog and hooks and cubbies for dogs things. I think that's amazing. Well, I do too. Let’s see two years ago, we were looking at moving from Dayton, Ohio, you know, maybe some sunshine, maybe some mountains, some lakes, something like that. And so we Googled dog friendly city in America. And there were 28.7 million hits or something like that. And so my initial reaction was, Wow, this is everywhere. But then when you look at it, it's apartment complexes trying to get you to rent from them. And it's the restaurant that's having a thing for a night. And so it's really hard to find what it truly means. You know, Have you have you run into that? Yeah. When I think of the US, I don't think we're as dog friendly, as in Europe, which they are so lucky, you can go to a elegant restaurant and see a standard poodle under the table. I love that. And I wish that we weren't so hung up on policies, and the dogs are dirty. And… Why Does Europe Seem to Be More Dog Friendly Than the US? Yes, it is a big misconception. We worked with Laurel Denise and Bill Cooley in the state of Ohio, in 2018. It was the first time that it was legal to have a dog on any patio for bars and restaurants, regardless of whether you want to have a pups on patios. And so that meant that some businesses that we we worked with some people who were complaining that they were going to lose up to 20% bump on the days that they had dog patio days. And then, of course, the animal welfare organizations that do fundraising on those patios, they had a significant hit in their ability to cover their capital and operational costs. So we worked with them. And we looked and looked and looked for research that showed that there was a danger as a result of having the dogs on the patio. And the only thing that I could find that had even a decision was a report that was done by the State of California public health. And they said that when they looked at that, they could find no evidence to suggest that it would be a problem, no evidence. And this was a massive study. So I think there's this perception of that. And I agree with you, when I've been overseas, it's a completely different vibe. And what is interesting, when I did all these interviews, it was so different in New York City, than it was in Key West than it was in Nashville than it was in Chattanooga than it was in Portland. So when people say what is dog friendly, it really, really, really does depend on where you live, the attitudes that you have the infrastructure that you have. Some people live in what I call a dog friendliness desert, and talk about a thing that can really affect the health and wellness of the animals. If you live in an area where you don't have access to emergent care for your dog, where there is no infrastructure to support them being out and active, if there is no way for them to be socialized. If you don't have options for different kinds of you know, different kinds of health care for that dog. If you don't have enriching activities, if you don't have open space where they are allowed, if you don't have training available, you know, if you don't have a good resource system to help people who can't afford to have to have those dogs, those are the things that make it possible to say, Okay, I've got the base covered for all of the physiological needs for my dog, and we belong. And now if I want to go up to you know Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and have my dog, self actualized and have the best life possible, it's nice to know that their basic care and their basic needs are taken care of, just because you live in a community that prioritizes the wellness of the animals that live there. You're so right. People just don't think about that. They do not. Thank you. So we have a lot more to cover, but we are going to take a quick sponsor break and we will be right back. Thanks to our friends at Walkee Paws for being our monthly sponsor.   Walkee Paws are the world’s first patented all-in-one dog boot leggings designed to be the “better bootie” and provide you and your dog worry-free walks. Unlike traditional dog boots that slip off mid-walk and are tight around your dog’s ankles, Walkee Paws connects over the back, so they’re easier to put on and comfy for your dog to wear. They feature water-resistant legging fabric and waterproof rubber soles to protect your pooch from all the ruff stuff outside like hot pavement or sand, broken glass, fox tails and burrs, snow, ice melt chemicals, pesticides, rough and rocky hikes, paw allergies and more.  And the best part? All four leggings connect together—so you’ll never lose a dog boot again! Walkee Paws are available in different sizes, colors and patterns…functional and fashionable.  And they also have indoor sock leggings, ideal for our senior dogs that need a little extra traction to prevent slipping on indoor floors.   It took my dog Winston just a few tries with his Walkee Paws, but got used to them and now enjoys romping in the snow all winter with clean and dry paws.     Order your dog some Walkee Paws today by going to https://walkeepaws.com/ and use the discount code WOL20 to receive 20% off of your order.   While you’re there, be sure to check out all of the stylish and functional Walkee Paws products.  Your dog will thank you! Welcome back everyone. We are speaking with Beth on dog friendly communities and how they affect our dog's health and wellness. So Beth, we already covered are dog friendly communities healthier? And yes, obviously they are. But are they safer? Are Dog Friendly Communities Safer? Actually, they are. And in some surprising ways even we're starting to see Ironically, one of the tendencies with dog parks is to put them apart from the city instead of being a part of the city. And what they see happening is that areas that were infested with crime and drug use, those activities are curtailed because those spaces are activated. Unfortunately, they're putting the dog parks where the drug deals were happening. But it kind of goes to show you I know Bar K in Kansas City with their they specifically chose the location there where they knew they could invigorate that area. And so you know, you have more people walking around and more people on the streets. And then I worked with a woman in Cleveland Heights, she developed a program between the dog people and the police people, right, put them together, the police trained these dog walkers who literally walk every square inch of that community, right, they you know what's supposed to be there, and what is not supposed to be there. You know what's healthy for your dog and what's not healthy for your dog and for you. So they train you this is something you should call 911 for. This is something you call this other number for, this is something that you take a picture for us, and we'll just take care of it later. And then they talk to the police officers. And there's a group specializing this in Texas, how to approach the dogs in a situation that's tense, or, you know, some kind of criminal situation. You know, they've got uniforms on a lot of times sunglasses, I hat, keys, things that make noises stuff that's attached to their belt. And that's very intimidating. Plus, they're approaching their person. So how do you start having those conversations about what is normal and abnormal dog behavior in terms of having a signal of being a problem? Is there a way that you can approach that in a different way. And then, of course, the community is self policing it is the streets one by one by one. So when you start to see that, and you start to see crime going down. And if we finally start putting dog parks in areas that have been traditionally red lined and excluded from that amenity, even though in many cases in the various communities that need them the most. We're not going to see that until we start to see some equity and more excellence. And at that point, you need to say, we're going to say that companion animals and their happiness, wellness, their security is a priority for our community. Wow! What a great program. Okay, what about dog friendly communities helping local economies? Do Dog Friendly Communities Help the Economy? Well, that can be pretty substantial. was interesting to me that when I did my travels, when you go to a community that's more dog friendly, then obviously, there are more supply stores and grain stores and training places and grooming places. And it's almost like that joke about if you throw a stone, you can hit a Starbucks anywhere in Seattle, it was like that in some of these communities where you would go down a city block and find seven or eight individual very diverse opportunities for people to engage in commerce about their dogs. And they've recognized that there's a need there that there's a demand for that elevated enrichment experience. And so there's a lot of room because there's so much space in the pet industry for, I guess, unique experiences, products and services that are available, that there's a lot of room for growth there. So we're starting to see organizations like PackHire, that's an app that sort of like LinkedIn, but just for the animal industry. Well, that's a perfect example of people gravitating toward. They want to know what the whole scope is of how they can contribute to that. So when you start to use that in terms of what that means for your community, and you start to say that hey 30% of people who now travel with their pets alongside them. We have a dog park here, we have great health care here, we have places where you can go run your dog, we have dock diving here, all of those things. And those are all things that drive hotel sales. Those are things that drive business to local restaurants and bars, that their dog friendly, right? They're getting that business. And then you start to see people saying, oh, my gosh, people are making a killing, because people are spending all this money on their dogs. And so then you start to see people pivoting and creating new, and then, you know, great innovations in the pet space, particularly coming out of COVID. Wow. And obviously, dog friendly workplaces are huge that companies are taking notice that people want that to be able to bring their dog to work, which is cool. Dog Friendly Workplaces People wanting to take their dog to work is I'm sure it's an all time high. And I think one of the great things about that is the recognition that we're all having conversations about separation anxiety for the dogs that we have adopted during COVID. But there's not as much recognition of the fact that people are having separation anxiety, they've lived the last couple of years, alongside something that provides them with emotional support, sometimes physical support all kinds of, I guess, accompanyment on this journey that we've had. And now you're going to pull that away and expect the same amount of productivity, when we know from before COVID, that people are willing to give up a week vacation as a benefit of employment, if they can bring their dog with them. We know that the toward the pandemic, that the numbers for productivity, for showing up for work for staying someplace for being loyal to them to be a good spokesperson for brands, all of those things were true. And now we have a much more intense, emotional relationship with animals that are going to be I don't know, knocking at the door, I guess, of the bars and restaurants and the business places. And I think it's going to revolutionize the way that we think how we want our communities to be represented, if that makes sense. So if you don't have welcoming amenities, and infrastructure and policies, and business practices, then I think you're going to be not as competitive. Good point. Well, Beth, I know that you have tons of information, and people can actually go to your site to learn more about each aspect of how community culture gives us and our dogs, a more enriching and healthy environment. But because this show, of course, focuses on canine health and wellness, if we can just cover a few of those in the time that we have remaining. How do these communities help with longer life expectancy? Life Expectancy Well, it's interesting that you bring that up, we're actually working with a group in Las Cruces. They're working with senior single women who are looking for ways to stay active, stay engaged, and also have purpose. And there is a little discrimination against seniors in terms of getting a dog or adopting a dog fostering a dog because there's concern of the dog outliving the person who's taking care of them. And so they lose some of that companionship, and that that's been shown to increase longevity and quality of life. And so we're sort of taking away this crutch that we give that helps not only enrich our lives, but it actually extends them. So if you think about the fact that this animal is going to be helping you long term over the let's say you have a dog, eight years on average, that means that eight years of that there are opportunities to get up and active to go for walks to go hiking, or even just getting up off the sofa and working with them to play for a little while. That's still activity. And I'm not saying that your activity needs to be a marathon every weekend to extend your life expectancy. What I'm saying is that those little mini races of experiences with your dog, those are the things that I think accumulate in us and give us a better outlook and they give us more purpose, and they give us more reason to keep going. That's all true. Well, how does community culture improve nutrition? Improve Dog Nutrition? Are you speaking about nutrition for people or nutrition for dogs? For dogs. Okay, well, that's a very good point. One of the things that we're starting to see and I'm sure you see it much more than I do is conversation about what's the best way to feed your dog. And there's the whole you know, kibble, right, the word kibble can can start a whole fight. So I think what we need to realize is that all of us that have you know, the equivalency of a human kid, you feed your kid the way that you think is best for their upbringing, and I think we're doing the same thing with our dogs. But when you go to a community where they have a higher value placed on the fresh produce, for example, there are areas of the community that I've visited around the country where you can't find fast food, everything is healthy. And so when you're surrounded by healthy options, and less healthy things don't really have room to grow in that environment, because the people celebrate that healthy behavior. So then you start to see dogs that are living longer, you start to see dogs that have fewer health issues. And that trickles down into you know, the wonderful effect of our veterinarians having a better relationship, for their vocation, and for the animals that they're caring for. So it's what I always say, when you plop a poodle into a town, there's a ripple effect. And most definitely, the nutrition, the care, the well being the safety, the economic vitality, the welcoming infrastructure. I don't see how that cannot be a recipe for success for the dogs and for everyone. Yep, absolutely. What about bite or aggression dampening? How can a community help in that aspect? Dog Bites and Aggression A great way to approach bite issues and aggressive dog issues is, first of all, to accept the fact that it is a part of the community. I did see a program in San Francisco, where they have police cases come up are flagged and they went to a special team. And they would have mediation sessions. Both parties come they tell their story. They have resources for them at the hearing. And, you know, discuss with them how to control the dog make a judgement as to the fitness of the dog to be in there. But also helping people understand that not every dog is controllable by every person. You know, I once worked with a training group where there was a 10 year old boy working with a three year old Labrador that had never had any training. That's not going to end well. Right. And so there's, there's sometimes I think, a mismatch in those things. When we take a look at bites, if you have dogs that haven't been in an environment where they understand how to meet other people, or how to meet other dogs, and people understand how to meet other dogs and other people. Everyone assumes that if you see a cute dog that it definitely wants a hug from you and a selfie, but maybe not in that order. But would you want someone to just randomly walk up to you and accost you basically and take pictures of it while they're doing it? No, no. And so we don't we don't see that. When I was in Little Italy, in San Diego, I was amazed and disappointed in myself that I didn't anticipate. I mean, I knew that the dogs would be better around the people, because they were in that environment had been steeped in that from birth. But I really wasn't anticipating how much better the people were at approaching dogs. And I think that combination of more respect more exposure, and then more opportunities for the dogs to understand appropriate behavior and for the people to better, better understand, you know how a dog thinks, what's appropriate to do and not to do around the dog. And then that trickles down into your body language. All of those things need to be a part of the conversation in the community. There are things like safety school, for kids to understand traffic, there needs to be more replication of what we're seeing at shelters and rescues and humane societies across the country, which is teaching kids about how to be safe around dogs and how to become a better person for an animal when they grow older. You are so right. On your site, I saw a reference to a study by the NIH. Do you want to tell us about that and what their findings were? NIH Study I'm glad you brought that up. That study I think is very important for people to pay attention to because when you start to take a look at that finding, it talks about the physical activity through dog walking, and we've seen time and time again, that the access to that can curtail a person's ability to get around and it affects the walkability of the city, the ability for people to have access to things that they need to in the city. And when you start to see things like no dogs allowed, essentially what that means for you as a dog Toter that means you are not allowed, right. So it's constrained your ability to live in an environment where parks understand that there can be some negative impacts for dogs and in natural spaces. And there can be some bad experiences from dogs on patios. There can be bad experiences from dogs in schools that can be you know, I always say there's a dog, there's a squirrel for every dog. Even a perfect dog. There's going to be something right that would it could be something silly, but we need to understand that the more we allow the population to enjoy those spaces. Those people will better understand how to read a dog, how to understand how they can give their dogs access to off leash play so that the dogs can learn how to be a dog appropriately, and not taking it to the dog park for the first time, without any kind of introduction or training on how to behave there and expect that it's not going to be a little overwhelming for that dog. And in some cases, it can really affect the dog for life. So we need to stop thinking about dog friendliness as a turnkey solution. And really embrace what NIH is saying, which is, you know, contributions to building things and creating zones of allowance and welcoming, so that it can really impact all of us long term. That makes total sense. So Beth, you've traveled near and far you've studied all these communities. If you had to pick one place in the United States, whether it's a town or a city, what would you say is already an ideal community for dogs? Where is the Most Dog Friendly Community? Oh, wow. And there are people of course, you are going to put me on the spot like that. Yeah, cuz I want to know, where what are they doing? Where is this? And who can take note of how this community is in existence for dog lovers and their dogs? Yeah, well, it's a tricky question. What I have found to be the case for me personally, is that, although I've been to cities where I say, Wow, they really got it figured out here. You always come across something that's surprising to you. So when I was in Lake George, New York, there's an unbelievable dog park at Lake George RV park. And Dave King has built this amazing, amazing thing that's just breathtaking. But it has some built environment has like a chalet experience. Very, very nice. And then there's another dog park in Marymoor, Washington, and or Redmond Washington called Marymoor Dog Park. You have to Google this thing. It is unbelievable. Now I'm a nature lover. So this is 42 acres linear along a slow moving stream. So you're out there, they have put ins like we would have for kayaking, but they're for the dogs to gently get down to the water level. Five of them along this stretch. A lot of it is not fenced. There are chuck its and treats and toddlers and strollers and there's a Leonberger playing next to a Chihuahua. And just everything you think would not go right for, say a dog park, we're having all these dogs together works there. And I think that's where I would want to live is I love what they've created in New York. But I'd like to have it all right. So just like we want to have varieties for wellness options for our animals, I think we need to find places that say, Oh, here's something that's working, let's share it with people and say this is what's possible when you prioritize it. And when you integrate wellness and play and health and the impact of dogs on our lives, and put that into the actual structure of our community. So I've seen a lot of things out West. Honestly, I don't know that I would pick a whole lot of places in the middle of the country. Some of the areas in the South are not great. And they have some historical histories with equity and relationships with dogs that are very complicated. But you do see a lot of East Coast and West Coast in terms of access. There's a lot of surprise when I go to those areas. When I tell people like for instance about no dogs on patios in some areas. They look at me like I have three heads. No, I just I just had dinner at a tiny little bistro in Carmel, where there was a Great Dane under the table. And I didn't even know he was there until I left. And he was massive. And the dogs don't walk in like, Whoa, check this out. I’m going to go nuts in here. This is great. They don't they're like we're here at Starbucks again. Mom's getting get her chai tea latte, and then we're gonna go to another patio. Just another day in a dog friendly community. Well, that I can't believe we're out of time. This always happens. This is just fascinating. And you've got so much more information to share. And you've launched the SMART Dog Park, and you have an offer for our listeners. So do you want to share that? SMART Dog Park I do. I'm glad you brought it up because we were talking about, you know, the pluses and minuses of things. And I am very much in the same camp of probably a majority of the people listening here that dog parks have a problem. They have no regulation, they have no supervision. There are no inspections, no certifications, no training, no centralized resource to find things you need the subject matter expertise that you can find at the drop of a hat, all of the things that are essential to having a quality dog park experience. So we can get away from saying, oh my vet said you know not to take the dogs there or oh I have a puppy or Oh my dog is small. I could never my dog, you know, it needs to be better than that. These are opportunities for us to come together as a community with and without our dogs, to celebrate our community and being outdoors and active, and having that magical experience which it can be. But if we want to have that happen, then we need to stop ignoring the problem and say I don't go to those places, and develop something that teaches you to plan and to build, to analyze, and to improve every time that you're creating an off leash experience. So, in working with a few dog park projects around, I developed a system called SMART Dog Park. And that integrates in that process that you always address as a team with a lot of people in a constellation of people that are stakeholders in that project. And you're constantly looking through the lens of is it smart? are we considering manners? are we considering awareness? What about responsibility on all parts? And what about training, if we incorporated those ways of those things, into dog park structure, and into programing and into fundraising, and into development, capital projects, all things that really center on it being a part of the community. And that's what we're hoping to strive to do. So now we're right now, filling spots in our founding members launch. So we're going to have our beta class where people can be steeped in that environment, learn all kinds of information. Even if you're talking about just the land. What was it used for before? Was there anything harmful in that soil? Is there any overspray from nearby farms or residents that use those sprays? Are there any view shed issues? Is there going to be a turf problem? Is there a watershed nearby that you could contaminate? Is there a way to access lighting? Is there enough security in all of these questions, and that's just the piece of dirt that you're going to put it on. So I wanted to put something together that would help people go comprehensively from idea and wish with a dog by your side, all the way through ribbon cutting and then beyond. So that it is a positive experience, that people see it as a part as a positive part of their dog's journey. And so I'm hoping that people can reach out, or they can reach out to me either going to https://www.wagtown.org/. And I've got all kinds of information about their the nonprofit and SMART Dog Park. I also have the downloadable on there that people can take a look at how they could start to develop their team to create a dog park experience in their community. So I would love to do that. And if people have questions and would like to talk with me, no charge, I'm happy to do that. I'm just looking to change the world through wagging tails. And if I can help you get in touch with me. Awesome. Well, Beth has created this handbook. Again, this is what the offer is, it's a free download. And I'm going to put all of the links and the social media URLs and tags into the show notes so that they're accessible for everybody. And Beth, you've just opened all of our eyes, I think of how we can all make our communities even better for ourselves, our neighbors, and of course, the dogs. So I just want to thank you so much for being here and sharing such valuable information. Together, we can change the world and make it better for everybody. Here here, or should I say woof woof woof woof? Thanks so much. Thank you. Social Media URLs or Tags Instagram:: https://www.instagram/wagtown Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/wagtown.org  Personal LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bethamiller Wagtown LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/wagtown-inc. SMART Dog Park LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/smart-dog-park   website URL Wagtown.org and SMARTDogPark.com I want to again thank the team at Walkee Paws for sponsoring today’s episode and for making products that are both functional and stylish. Keep your dog’s paws healthy, clean and dry by ordering from https://walkeepaws.com/today. and don’t forget to use the promo code WOL20 for 20% off! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.