Hello everyone, this is Krista with Episode #174 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Have you checked out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend? These are products that I've researched and I've tried, that I know like and trust. Products that will help your dog to thrive. So just go to WagOutLoud.com and check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? And don't forget to also check out the resources page as well, because it's filled with some very important info for both you and your dog. Here's something I found interesting, the presence of a leash, the sex of a dog's owner and the sex of the dog itself all play a part in the aggressiveness of a dog when they're being walked. So dogs being walked by men are four times more likely to attack and bite another dog. Why is this? Well, it's because many dogs not only react to the behavior and posture of other dogs around them, but also to their people. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Nathan Dewsbury is a seasoned expert in the animal health and wellness industry, with a track record of launching successful product-focused companies. His unique blend of scientific and business development skills has been instrumental in developing, manufacturing, and commercializing innovative nutritional supplements and testing programs. His extensive experience includes participation in multi-national health testing programs and guiding product development from R&D stages to commercial launch, giving him a comprehensive understanding of the entire process. Nathan received his graduate degrees in science and business from Texas A&M University and has numerous scientific publications to his name. Welcome dog lovers to yet a another informative Wag Out lLoud pawdcast episode. I am so excited to chat with Nathan Dewsbury and we are going to talk about applying science correctly for dogs. So Nate, thank you so much for being here today. Oh happy to be here, Krista. So thank you. Well, before we get started, if you could please introduce yourself and tell us when this passion for canine health started for you. Oh, no worries. So I am one of the co-owners and founders of rogue pet science. And so we've been for me, I've been doing this for the better part of 12 years, but we've been publicly available for the better part of six years now. And, you know, I'm a scientist by trade, a lot of diverse background in production animals, solving health problems the world over. I'm also a business trained scientist as well. So I've ran labs, I've developed diagnostics to help develop early stage research for vaccine development, dog cancer development work with Texas A&M and lot more of the dog trainer I competed in protection sports, you know, I've kind of done it all. And this diverse background allows me to see not just health issues, but a lot of issues from a multiple points of view. So I'm very well rounded. So not very silonated in just one little area, though, I've been in multiple silos. And so early on during my early developmental time as a, as a trainer, training my dog competing with my dogs helping others with, you know, raw diet and all that conversions back in the in the late 1990s. That's really weird to say that. I was, you know, there were three books published on this topic. I mean, back when you had to read books. So, you know, I was doing this I was traveling with the dogs, living with them full time, you know, as we traveled multiple states, and really realized that, you know, there's so much more than we can do on the dry food side that it wasn't a solution. And even on the raw food side. It was you know, it was helping a lot of people we were getting a lot of abatement, but we weren't getting resolution on a lot of issues. They still reoccurred but they were definitely diminished. And then the inconvenience of raw for those if you've ever traveled with dogs, even when I was getting it for free, it was still inconvenient and the timing of it so that was kind of starting a seed in my mind. I was like there's gotta be a better way. At the time. I didn't know exactly what it was I was studying immune systems immune responses, development in like vaccine development research work in animals so didn't know exactly what all was going on until I got exposure globally into the gut health side of it and understanding those factors. So when you fast forward later in my career after grad school, I'm traveling still globally helping production animals, dairy, swine, poultry, still in the dog food side of things as well, and started realizing that it wasn't that, you know, it was this really defining moment, other than I'm constantly asked by, you know, a lot of my working dog guys that have kennels, with the dogs, you know, bird dog guys, hunting guys. And production sport guys, they're like, you know, when are you going solve these problems, Nate when you can solve these problems, so they knew what I did and what I was what I really enjoyed working dogs. And so it wasn't that there was a defining moment, Krista, it was more like, at some point, I felt an obligation. And that obligation was that I had knowledge, I had the experience, I know what needed to be done. So I'm obligated to do this for other pet owners around the world, which has been our mission. And thankfully, we're around the world, literally, with our products, helping pet animals everywhere. So that's the short of it, I would say there was no defining, oh, I tried everything in the world. I solved this, and so I created something, it's like, I had to create what I did, because no one was doing it because I did look around. And it wasn't that I didn't try, I did look around, I did try. And it just none of it made sense from a fundamental scientific standpoint, from a nutritional standpoint, because you got to remember, both my co owner, Blake Jackson, and I, we've been longtime friends for a very long time. And we, we started training dogs together, we were working out together, we competed in our respective sports personally, on our own. This is not like high school or college, it's beyond that, that we were competing ourselves. So we were constantly and still to this day students of nutrition, gut health, you know, meta genomic, you know, these nutrigenomics, you know, all this information is still ongoing. But we were applying this to dogs. And of course, we knew this about ourselves. And it was not a lot of rollover from the human world circulating down to the pet world. Only if you were involved in production animals, which are 20 years ahead of the pet space. That's how far they are in of course knowledge and what works, what doesn't work and why they're doing things. So I was able to apply all that exposure and private research that was seen and know what works and what didn't work and was able to develop that over six years into developing the first product, which was our, our Origins 5 in 1 product not to plug that product. Now that that was our plug that's our flagship product, and it's changed. It's helped a lot of people around the world. That is awesome. Well, Nate, you're going to chat with us about the science that is available for our dogs to realize optimal health and nutrition. But with so many different food choices and supplements on the market, how do we know? What is really going to help our dogs to thrive when it comes to the science that's available to us today? Yeah, big question. Right? How to Navigate the Dog Food & Supplement Market Yeah, it's huge question. And I think it causes a lot of stress. And in grief for for pet owners, whether they're experienced or not, you know, your average, you know, say, pet owner, and then also your training or your working dog level, guys, it causes them some stress and grief. Am I doing enough? Is this working? I don't know. I hope so. So it's a lot of emotional factors in there, that aren't exactly rooted in, in knowledge, or, as far as the science goes, being able to understand any science to understand you know, how to make better decisions. And that's not that's not on the owner, not entirely for sure. There's a lot of confusion out there, because we've always had this, saying that from the very beginning, you know, we're we're not a marketing company that happens to have a pet product line. We're a pet science company that develops functional nutritional tools, that solves problems, that we happen to do marketing, to sell the product to get in the hands on that. So that has been our biggest differentiation point, by anybody out there, as far as any quasi associated products to us, or the brands related to us in our space. So that leads into like, that we need better products, not more products. And unfortunately, you know, I mean, unfortunately, but fortunately, you know, we're, we're in the United States. So, we have that opportunity, anybody can create a product, you know, we say the market has potential for any good product. Well a good product is, is situational. And the market will always tell you what's a winner, but not always the best product ultimately be a winner at the end of the day, but we've been fortunate enough that we do have the best products. So we say we need better products, not more products, better products, meaning that not only the background information or the background science of why maybe individual components work, right there's a lot of focus, you know, narrow focus on, you know, enzymes, probiotics, the nutritional Things like raw proteins, as well as mega fatty acids happening, the science on those in different animal models, human models, you know, they work, but it's when you put them into a complex system, like the GI tract that you the GI tract environment, that that's where, what you started with on the foundations of the scientific components of it, that's when they start falling apart, right, that's why it took six years to develop our first product was because once you start putting things together, and then you put it into a incredibly complex and complicated environment, like the GI tract, then all bets are off. Because unless you've studied that product in that animal species, and measure, and then are able to measure the outcomes, positive or negative, or how what's changing, why it's changing, you know, understanding these things, then you'll never really understand that there's no observable change, right? Or easy to understand outcome, or that's even measurable or attainable tests that can be measured by your veterinarian, or some at home type testing. So that's where a lot of the, you know, the pet owners are being and consumers are being trained, oh, where's the science? Where's this study? Where's this digestibility study? You know, they say that, but then they vote with their money with the products they buy. And it is contradictory in that, in that in that same point, as well. So you know, it's not, we try to do the best we can educate and train because if we can read the body of knowledge, then we can all become better decision makers in how we treat our, our pets, and what we give them to give the best outcome to get the best quality of life outcome at the end. That's, you know, that's, that's the important part. Well, if we feed a species appropriate diet, and you and I both agree that that would be a raw and or fresh food diet. Isn't that enough? Or do we all need to supplement? Why Do Our Dogs Need Supplementation? Yeah, so, you know, that's one of the most highly debated things, right? It's about nutrition, right? It's like, oh, it's like, you know, nutrition. Everybody's got an opinion, literally, everybody's got an opinion. And so yeah, we, you know, I'm a big proponent of raw and fresh or minimally processed as minimally processed as possible. But you’re not, you know a bad owner, if you can't do that, right. Because it's the world we live in, right? It's affordable convenience is the biggest driver, right? Even my I find myself, you know, inconvenience conundrums about what to do when I'm gone. How does my wife feed the two dogs, you know, type of deal. So we have that, right. So that's the bigger component, right? The the nutrition is the foundation, or it's one of the biggest components that goes into the animal alright, it's the food. But that's where we start getting into this realm of passive nutrition versus active nutrition. Right? So passive is, you know, adding protein, you know, that's the biggest market product category out there was like protein toppers, right, you know, you get all this new pork and beef and, you know, kangaroo I mean, who knows what's gonna come out? Armadillo, insects, which I'm definitely not a fan of, you know, you put these toppers on, right? Well, that's nutrition. Right canned food, raw, you know, those are nutrition components are passive, meaning that they're not actively making too many changes. And, you know, this specifically, is when you're dealing with health issues. If that was the case, then feeding these other diets, you know, if you're on a raw diet, you know, you're still your dogs still get sick, they still have allergy, like issues that flare up, maybe seasonally, I mean, there's so many other things associated reproduction issues, there's, there's other things that we tend to associate with like, Oh, they're not getting enough nutrition, it's like, well, this isn't we're active nutrition comes in. So what we focus on too, is that the active nutrition side of making changes to the GI tract to boost its ability to do its job allows us to also improve the immune response later on inflammation responses, as well as the nutritional component, because you do need the quality nutrition to set the pH range of the GI tract, before you can do anything to get that back in balance, that'll have a positive change. And then you got to have the other if you will, the pillars of gut health, that if you're going to make any changes, you need to address these other pillars. So you're need to address the pH obviously, you need to address the the surface layer. So the mucosal barrier, the lining the support of the lining the microbes that are there and you get to worry about those guys that are there feeding those good guys and not perpetuating bad guys because you perpetuate that system and you know, how is it bagged and tagged as nutrients, you know, all these little things factor in so if you're not addressing all of those, it doesn't matter what you're feeding. If the bad the gut environment is not favorable to the animals in favor of dysbiosis or a negative type of you know, if you will, in this case, a tilt towards the negative side. You have a lot of inefficiencies that are happening, and you know, stress in the world stress on, you know, on the living situation and stress on the immune system from the environment. So like viruses and pathogens, you know, there's so many factors that come in, that play a role, that even just focusing on the best diet is not going to be enough. And that's not even factoring in the quality of these raw diets. And these were all components, right? Because those, the quality of those components in those diets matter about what that animal, that animal was being fed. So, you know, there's a depletion in our environment, obviously. So it's like, are we getting enough, you know, of the vitamins and minerals and the key cofactors, that's going to support you know, hormone production, and as well as the macro side of it, because everybody focuses on, right, you know, macros, it's the sexy thing, right? protein, protein, and it is important in fact, but then it's like, well, what about the phyto nutrition? What about the macro nutrition, have you know, magnesium and it's there have been selenium and its proponents later on it that it's cofactors in to get like the glutathione, but they're involved in many metabolic not just food metabolism, but cellular metabolic mechanisms throughout the body. Nate, I’m going to stop you right there. So we're gonna take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Hold tight, everybody. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody, we are chatting with Nate Dewsbury. And he's blowing my mind. We just talked about active nutrition. And in the market today, we are pretty much just focusing on passive nutrition. So Nate, are you saying that we, with what we're feeding our dogs, both food and supplementation, that we are just putting a bandaid and trying to fix a problem or symptom that we're seeing that we're not addressing the entire body itself and what it needs? We Aren’t Addressing the Issues Yes, that's the easy way to say that we are putting band aids on it or chasing our tail, pun intended on this one, where you have some knowledge and some buzzwords that have been perpetuated out there very nicely. But it's either not used correctly, it's not applied correctly, or it's the wrong format to be applied the way they thought it was gonna be. But it's just not going to have the function. And that's where you get a lot of these, you know, wives tales and the misuse and applications of ingredients or supplements or products, that just doesn't work definitely like, oh, I, you know, I've tried all that nothing worked or, you know, I've dealt with cases where they've done 5000, 3000 plus dollars, that's thrown everything but the kitchen sink at an issue, I mean, going as far as buying energizes crystal waters, the wave over at all to help with allergies. And they will genuinely try adding all these probiotics and the standalone products, and they're in combinations, and it wasn't working as well not wonder so you know, obviously quality issue and the format issue, but then it's like, also how you put this together to work correctly. And that's why we were able to do it with a single product in our, in our case, to make these changes very quickly, and get resolution on the problem. And then they have what's you know, to them a normal dog again, you know, a healthy, active normal dog and they don't have to do anything special to just feeding it well and using you know, in this case Origins. So yeah, putting a bandaid on it is literally what's going on or you put enough band aids and you still not getting resolution, you're still having, you know, slight issues or it flares up very quickly with the you know, the wind blows wrong and it's going to change on you a little bit or you change food or something and it's just a whole nother the same situation all over again. And that's where the science the shelf concept that we've coined comes into play because that's ultimately what our mission is always doing, we're not, we're not making products just to make products. Because then we can easily have, you know, 36 different products easily. If I can do that, within four weeks, it's not even hard to do. But that's just not what we do. So science to shelf is basically means developing products, the way science says works. And so if you do that, and you're paying attention, and applying this correctly for the species, it doesn't look the way you think it looks. And in our case, we've actually had to develop the individual ingredients, sometimes to get the format that we need to put it with something else to give us that value add proposition to give that multiplex to health, as you will approach to help addressing why we develop a product. Yeah, so. So case in point, because it's hard to, you know, not be product specific for us, because, you know, I saw all these issues. So like, you know, why we created our Pumpkin Pro, we had to develop our fermented turmeric and ginger product, to give us this natural and powerful anti inflammatory that we know works culturally, from an ingredient standpoint, many cultures that use it, and why do they use it, but then when you look at the science is whether it's culture, life studies, dog studies, human studies using this, when you actually read them or call them up and talk to all the PI's that are running the study, you can find a lot of other extra information. But you also find out the methods that they used. And even though they even though they they write it out in their studies, they tell you what they how they use and what they what they did to manipulate it, but that's not, that's where things fall off, right? It's like, oh, well, turmeric is good. And you add black pepper, and you get this, you know, three fold increase in absorption uptake. And it's like, whoa, hold on there. But turmeric is one of those misused by owners and industry type of marketing buzzwords that are misused all the time, I would never use regular turmeric off the shelf, either. So we had to create a fermented version, to make it biologically available to get those bioflavonoids, those curcuminoids these other components that are beneficial in there. the essential oils that are in these roots, that that help as that CO transporter, just like pepper pepper, in this case, is the central pepper. Well, Mother Nature's printing smart. And they have their own essential oils to help with carriers that are studied that show the same increase in uptake. So you had to create this amazing product. And then I needed that the couple with, you know, the most amazing pumpkin product to get that two step approach to managing, you know, GI distress, stomach upset issues naturally, and for it to actually work very quickly, not just throw pumpkin fiber at at a situation that's not actually that's only addressing the human’s issue that's not addressing the dog's issue. So we created that two step approach to manage the issue in the animal, in the dog, in this case, the GI tract, and then inflammation that causes the villi to shrink up. And then we also solve the owner’s issue with the best human grade pumpkin you can ever get. So we addressed that. So that's what we developed, and stuff like that. And other things that I've been testing for like two years now. So what happened, let's go back to wolves. They self selected what they needed to eat nutrition wise. Now we have our modern domestic dog. And I feel like we need to supplement so much more, is it because of the environment that they're living in? The stressors? You pointed out that, you know, there's a lot less nutritional value even in the food that we grow, you know, in the soil that is depleted? Why is it so different now with a dog that we have to address all of these other issues with food and supplementation? Why Today Do We Need to Supplement? Great, great question actually. So you also have to take into consideration that the the domesticated dog, as we know, it co evolved with humans, you know, obviously along the waterways, so their micro biomes changed in parallel to humans, as well because we were sharing the same environment like face to face sharing the environment, and they co evolved with the humans and so they they did diverge from the feral side of their their genealogy. And when you do that, well we have some changes and so any also if you think about, you know very easily think about the past even as early as the 50s but way later as well because they coevolved and they were eating other products we were also eating different products. You know, meat scraps, not us but we were eating meat and they were getting a lot of raw components as You know, in this case, it just overflow product or, or byproduct waste product from the human side. And so they were getting, you know, raw bones, they were getting organ cut offs, and, you know, collagen cut offs and organs as well. And then even some of the intestinal components as well. So they were, at some point, they were getting a lot of what their ancestral relatives were getting as well. And then the modern world is a tough world as we know it today. And, you know, we have many factors, even the city water is a factor. The air quality is a factor, obviously, and those are stressors. But the biggest conversion, you know, the biggest change, I think happened was the convenience factor, which was based on the war, there's plenty of people have written about the introduction started the, the processed kibble, the dry food, the extrusion process, when that started, and it was convenience. And for cost effectiveness, you know, we were in the middle of economic turmoil with wars and stuff. So it was that but it never the convenience was so high that it never went away. Well, diverge away from that long enough. And you're going to have some some some issues. So they the lack of diversity of the fresh quality ingredients, or minimally processed ingredients kind of took a left turn on us as dogs, though pet owners, and that allowed, you know, these, these holes to be created. And then things have only been perpetuated further. But I think over the last easily five years now, things have been moving closer to what you and I both know is more of like the whole prey type concept of being more or being revisited, talked about more and being focused on and you know, being able to include, you know, even fresh vegetables, and fruits and other organs when you can get them. That is a big help. And owners, I think are actually seeing that impact on their animals very easily with liver, you can see, you know, a lot of energy changes, obviously, because it's all the B vitamins in liver, you'll see energy changes and disposition changes. So the more we focus on that, and then also how do we help them process the dry food because remember, just because you've been through our food, you're not a bad owner. It's not about that. So there's other tips and tricks we've obviously bring about and talk about and educate on to help them process help them help their dogs to process that, that dry food, like the hot water trick, and things like that to to unlock the format, because it's, it's all about the format, right, the less processed you get, you get more inconvenience, but you get better nutrition, and then you get on the processed foods and get ultimate convenience, but it's a format problem. So, you know, you need other factors to help the dogs actually process that. And normally, they would have gotten these things through the prey animal like, you know, rodents and other small animals they would have that are designed to eat grasses and roots and vegetables and like that they would have you know, dogs and feral, you know, wolves and stuff that would get those ingredients fermented or processed, indirectly getting these vitamins and minerals, and plus the organs and everything else. So it's a trade off that we're just trying to balance out the equation. I think ultimately, what I'm trying to do is recreate that whole prey model just in a more convenient way and cost effective ways that allow owners to actually replicate what dogs really are missing, and make it convenient in this modern world to help them actually thrive. Thank you for that. Yeah, it's a lot. No, I love it. I love geeking out and the science behind it. So Rogue Pet Science, what gap are you guys filling in the market? What is Rogue Pet Science? So it's really about making health focused products that actually work at the end of the day they have to work, you have to be able to test things to make sure that they work as well, which we've done. And so we are we are filling that in this multiplex format. So it's being able to address multiple deficiencies, whether it's on the gut health side or the nutritional side, that cumulate together to solve not just health issues, but performance issues, you need nutrition, you need gut health to get ultimate performance, whether that's just the best health possible for your for your pet dog, or the working ability of a detection dog, a police dog, or, you know, these competitive, you know, like flyball and agility and stuff like that as well. So that's, that's really what we're doing. And when we do that, we put the science into it. So that's really the big differentiators that we're one of the few products out there. There's not many, only a couple actually have real science into their products, the way they work in an animal proven that they do. And we've developed and co-developed tests to also show that value and I think that's ultimately where the future is going to be able to go is this personalized or individualized nutrition for your pet at different stages of life. That's that's ultimately where things gonna end up going. We’re already seeing it on the human side. Right, so your products no matter what people feed their dog, they will help all of their bodily processes. Absolutely. Okay, awesome. Well, as we are wrapping up, Nate, I know that you have an offer for our listeners. And this is really exciting. Do you want to share that? Or do you want me to talk about it? Go ahead and talk about it. OFFER for 25% Off Awesome. Well, the team at Rogue Pet Science along with Nate is offering 25% off for you guys to try their amazing science backed products. So the code is Wag25. And that would get you 25% off of your entire purchase. And can you briefly since we're almost out of time, Nate, just tell us what kind of products you do have for them to choose from. Yeah, we have multiple food toppers, if you will, that category. So we have our Origins 5 in 1, which has all the prebiotics and probiotics, the post biotic the digestive enzymes, all the gut health side of it, plus the wild fish, which is all the organs and the end, concentrated Omega fatty acids all 42 of them, we have a natural weight gainer and weight maintainer we call Healthy Weight, which is all food based actually no no tricks, no sugars, it's just all whole food based with the gut health complexes in there. Not all of them, but most of them that actually help process those extra calories. Because it's all egg yolk, egg white, fermented barley and stuff like that, we have our Pumpkin Pro, which is you can use it as a fiber or an enrichment for diversity of the diet as well. Or if you're having you know, traveling and trying to manage stress, avoiding stress, stuff like that. And then we also have our concentrated fermented turmeric and ginger, which is a standalone mainly for senior animals, or injury prevention, if you need a powerful antioxidant, like you can use on a weekend for recovery type purposes, for the performance dog. And then we have a few other obviously, we got some Rogue gears and nice Rogue gear and bowls and tents. But we have some health tests that are tested and verified, yak sticks, which we're big fans of and adopted those way early on. And we have the best jerky treats you could ever think of which are all human grade. So most of our products are literally human grade ingredients that you can eat yourself. We're just packaged in for pet animals, for animals in general. So yeah, and then so the code is very generous, because at the end of the day, you have zero risk. There's no BS involved with us. We're here to earn trust. At the end of the day, if we can't earn that, then I don't want you buying our products. So don't you want to use it don't do what you want. zero risk return, there are no questions asked. But the end of the day. It's all about earning trust. And our products work, and we're willing to show it. I love it. Well, thank you for that very generous offer. Nate, where can everyone find out more information about you and Rogue Pet Science? Absolutely. The website, obviously, that you could go to for finding information about us the company the products. That's RoguePetScience. And it's the same on Instagram, which we do a lot of some slightly different content there. Even on Facebook, it is also @RoguePetScience, where we do a lot of Article posts and some very inside information industry inside information that we post about articles and stuff that we actually write and develop and further refine as new science comes to light. So you can find a lot of information there. We have a newsletter you can sign up for that gets you on a list that we were very, very light handed on the emails that we send out. So we won't gum up the works on your inbox as well. So that is those are the best ways. And then if you have any questions, the fastest way is either through Instagram messaging, or through Facebook Messenger. Somebody's always monitoring them even late at night like I am, and we're gonna get your answers no matter what. Your Social Media URLs or Tags       Instagram: rogue pet science      Facebook: rogue pet science      LinkedIn: rogue pet science   Your website URL:      www.roguepetscience.com Perfect. Well of course, all of this information with the links is going to be in the show notes. But of course with podcasting, this is audio. So that is RoguePetScience. And again, WAG25 gets you 25% off of your entire purchase. Nate, thank you so much for being here today. I think that we love geeking out about science and dogs here. So hopefully we've piqued some people's interests. And again, go check out RoguePetScience. Nate, thank you for all that you do. Thank you for everything you do to help us get our voices and information out to everybody. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code WOL10 For 10% off.