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Submit ReviewWhat does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to “get in the game’ so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
63dPOtaGJD0Ma5JnQw40XCXFU-9PfRDHKNRgKo743v2lE0nd7KDfN2lZbw.pdKZE3sdhS0isJ_0wjBPkfmibC6J6vysBQTFHrMU70M&dib_tag=se&keywords=adweek+copywriting+handbook&qid=1711398667&sprefix=adweek%252Caps%252C164&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=aab86b628d417153482999ddbfb20635&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Eddie’s website
Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned.
But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free.
But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free.
And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie.
Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?
Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that’s what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that’s It’s really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn’t really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn’t know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn’t know they were called copywriters. So this goes to show how little I knew about this discipline in this profession before getting into it.
But I looked it up and I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll try that. And I went in and I think I got the job just on the back of my English degree, because It was a brand new department. They were writing job ads. It was a contract role. I wasn’t getting any health insurance. I was making $15 an hour. So it was one of those. And I took the job just because I was like, hey, I can make a living writing. And quickly learned that my worth in that role was based on how many times I can get people to click and how many times I can get people to take an action. And so independently, just kind of doing my research, realized that I was doing something called direct response copywriting. And then I kind of went down the rabbit hole. I got really interested in that profession and that discipline and started consuming as much as I could about it. I started just reading books and watching seminars, listening to podcasts, reading articles. Yeah, whenever I would come into an insight, whenever I would hear a principle or a technique that was really compelling to me, I would try to write about it. And that turned into a very good copy eventually, my blog and my newsletter. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed from there. So I think that that’s how I got into copywriting was kind of a slow burn.
Rob Marsh: Do you have a novel in your desk drawer that you’ve been working on in the background, Eddie?
Eddie Shleyner: Thanks for asking, man. It’s not a novel. It’s an anthology of my work, but yeah, there is something that I’ve been working on, if that’s what you’re getting at.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll wait for that to hit the bestseller list so we can talk about it then. In the meantime, you know, as you were studying, as you’re learning, obviously podcast books, whatever, what were like the main sources that you used or that you were there were your go tos that you were pulling this stuff from? I’m asking mostly because I know there are beginners who are listening to the podcast and may want to replicate that, learn and write about these insights and learning ideas. Where’d you go?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, the first book I picked up was by Joe Sugarman. It’s called 63dPOtaGJD0Ma5JnQw40XCXFU-9PfRDHKNRgKo743v2lE0nd7KDfN2lZbw.pdKZE3sdhS0isJ_0wjBPkfmibC6J6vysBQTFHrMU70M&dib_tag=se&keywords=adweek+copywriting+handbook&qid=1711398667&sprefix=adweek%252Caps%252C164&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=aab86b628d417153482999ddbfb20635&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Adweek Copywriting Handbook. And I really wore it out. I mean, it was so overwhelming in its completeness. I just felt like it covered so much. And what was really interesting about that book was when I picked it up and I started reading it, being a literature major and studying English all those years and reading the classics. And I started reading and I was like, man, this sounds like it’s like reading air. You know, it was like it was so simple and so plain. I was almost unimpressed at first. I was like, well, you know, is this really the resource that I should be reading? Is this really where I should be gathering information? Because it seems so trite at first, because it was so simple. But I think that was just the first couple pages, and then I realized that this was really just a treasure trove of information about direct response copywriting. And not just that, but it was something to emulate.
It was a writing style that I needed to emulate, and I referred back to it time and time again and copyworked it time and time again so that I can get that so I could get it into me, you know, the type of writing, the tone that he was using and the word choice and just the sentence structure and the simplicity in general. I really wanted to write that way and not the way that I was writing in college. You know, I had an editor that was like, “you write like a fire hose, I need you to write like a nail gun.” And that was Joe Sugarman. Joe Sugarman was so intentional about every word that he used. He was even intentional down to the punctuation marks. He wouldn’t use unnecessary commas. He was always trying to save space on the page, make it as simple as possible. And so, yeah, I took a lot away from that, both in the principles and techniques of direct response, but also just in the style and how those guys wrote.
Kira Hug: So you shared your lessons. It sounds like you were learning and writing and sharing. Yeah. What was the reason for that initially? I mean, we can look back now and say, that was really smart, because now you’ve developed this entire resource and website, and you’ve grown since then. But what was your initial thinking with that?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, my initial thinking, I think, was that, you know, I missed writing. This was coming off of an entire writing and literature education, so I missed just the act of sitting down and composing vignettes and these little stories, which is something that I did pretty regularly, I think, in college. And so I think I missed it a lot, and I wanted to have an outlet for that. I wanted to exercise that a little bit. Also, I just thought, hey, if I can write about this clearly and concisely, if I can make it engaging, if I had control of this concept on the page, then that meant that I was ready to use it in my own promotions and my own ads. I think that was probably the driving force. They say millennials want to document everything in their lives. Maybe I just wanted to have some way of documenting all of this effort that I was putting in. I don’t know. It’s a good question. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly why I chose to do that, but somewhere in the intersection of those three things is the answer, I think.
Rob Marsh: When you weren’t only documenting what you were learning, you know, as part of your blog, you started interviews with other copywriters. Yeah. And there’s some really good copywriters that you interviewed for that. Yes. I’m not necessarily putting myself in that category, even though I was part of that, that series. But I am curious, were there lessons that you learned from them as you did those interviews and post those on your website that you look back and think, oh, yeah, that was brilliant. Anything that you can call out from what was shared there?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. You were actually, Rob, I think you were the third person I interviewed. I was very gracious of you because, you know, you didn’t have to do that.
Rob Marsh: Well, things really got good after the first three or four people, I think.
Eddie Shleyner: I don’t know. You were great. But to answer your question, themes that emerged were probably more than anything that just the fact that we are so similar. We are also so alike as copywriters and you know as people doing creative work for a living. I was really surprised by a lot of things that people wrote in that? It’s the same six questions over and over again, and the first question is: do you have a routine you have a way of working and this wasn’t like across the board, but so many people talked about how focus was really the key to doing good work and their production in general. Just being able to have blocks of time where they sat down and they were uninterrupted and they could focus on the problem at hand. I took that to heart back then. I think it’s a lot harder after you have kids. You have to be a lot more regimented with your time and just plan everything out to a T. But I think thematically, that was one of the things that really stood out across the board.
Kira Hug: Going back to your storyline, can you share a little bit more about once you realize you’re a copywriter, you have this job, and then you go deep into learning mode, what happens after that? What are the next few steps?
Eddie Shleyner: Oh, you mean like in my career progression? Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I actually worked at CareerBuilder which is where I was writing those job ads for about a year and a half. And so those are like three month contracts. So they just, you know, they extended those contracts probably five or six times. So I worked there for a year and a half and then afterwards I got a job at an agency. And it was, it was an SEO agency. We created SEO websites, but a lot of that work was very much rooted in direct response as well. You know, we needed to capture people’s attention when they got onto the site and convert them as well. So everything on that site was just pointing towards the fill in lead form. And a lot of our clients were, you know, kind of, you know, hand to mouth with their leads. So, you know, dentists, trucking companies, moving companies, that sort of thing. So I worked there for a little while and I continued to build out the blog and build out—I don’t even know if it was a newsletter at that point.
For a while, it was just like a running list of like 50 or 60 of these little essays that I wrote in a Google Doc. I was never going to show them to anybody. They were just there just for me. I just thought, hey, I’m making this repository for myself. So I worked there for a little while. I think I worked there for about three years. And then after that, I got a job in-house at a software company. And that’s where I got a lot of SaaS experience, or at least my first SaaS experience. And then after that, I went and worked really briefly at a content marketing agency. It was called Animals. And then after that, I went to G2.com, which is kind of like Yelp, but for B2B businesses. And I was the copy chief there until November 2020, something like that. And that’s when I went out on my own with their copy. So that was the progression.
Rob Marsh: You mentioned you started out in that sales job that you didn’t necessarily love all that much, and yet you basically became a salesperson for all of these roles that you did. Did you learn anything in that first job that you carry through all of these things? Obviously, there’s a theme here anyway of you learning and picking insights and growing as you move from place to place, anything stand out specifically about sales?
Eddie Shleyner: Oh yeah, of course. I was in sales before this job after college. I did door-to-door sales for a little bit. I think at the end of the day, whether you’re selling one-on-one to somebody or whether you’re selling one-to-many as a copywriter, the point is that you have to gear everything towards the person that you’re speaking to, towards that prospect, towards the person that you want to sell. If you can make it as much about that person as possible, then you’re giving yourself a good shot at engaging them and compelling them in the long run. I think a lot of that transfers over from one-to-one sales to copywriting, is to know your audience, know who you’re talking to, know what they really want and need, and then try to channel that into your copy.
Kira Hug: So I’m going back to the storyline, because I have to complete it in my head. This is how my brain works. I’m like, OK. So then you went out on your own. And how did you get that going? Did you have enough colleagues, former colleagues, that you could just get business going pretty easily at that point?
Eddie Shleyner: I think when I started at G2, that was a really fortuitous thing for me, because everybody there was so supportive of this side thing, this very good copy thing that I was doing. And everybody from the CEO to the CMO to the marketing directors, all my bosses, everybody loved the fact that I had this blog on the side, this newsletter on the side. And I think a lot of that came down to hey, you know, you’re teaching yourself and others how to be better copywriters. That’s only going to benefit the business in the long run. So keep doing what you’re doing. Um, I think, you know, I was performing well in the role anyway, so there wasn’t like a, Hey, you’re distracted, uh, kind of narrative there.
So it was just very lucky that I started at G2 and I was surrounded by people, um, that were supportive and genuinely wanted to help me. The first break I got there was just being around like a bunch of growth marketers, really talented growth marketers, people that taught me not necessarily how to write or what to write, but how to spread my stuff around the Internet really efficiently. And that’s when LinkedIn kind of came into the picture, when I started posting on LinkedIn and when I started creating growth loops from my website to my newsletter to LinkedIn, that just kind of amplified each post. And yeah, I really, I started growing a following on LinkedIn while I was still at G2.
I couldn’t ask for more support than those people showed me. I mean, it was really great. And I think, you know, I was really lucky to have it. So by the time I left G2, I had left because there was already so much incoming so many incoming leads, so much incoming business that I felt safe, you know, walking away, even amid, you know, we were in the middle of the pandemic and everything, which was, I think a lot of people, they just looked at it sideways. They were like, I can’t believe you’re leaving now, but I just felt like it was the right time to go and kind of take advantage of this network that I’d built. So, yeah.
Kira Hug: I like the idea of, who said spread stuff, spread your stuff around the internet and growth loops. Yeah, efficiently. I mean, I want to do that. So how, how do you approach that? How are you doing that today? What’s working?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, certainly in the very beginning, I started creating growth loops from my newsletter to LinkedIn. So every single time I wrote a new micro-essay just as a branding exercise—they’re basically little essays that teach one principle or technique at a time. And so I would post it on LinkedIn, and then I would send out the exact same essay in my newsletter. And then at the end of the newsletter, I would just ask for support and be like, hey, if you like this, go reshare or go leave a comment or like it on LinkedIn. And by posting and sending out that newsletter in such close proximity and transferring my audience from the newsletter to LinkedIn, it would just amplify the post to all those folks. So now there’s the commenting or the pod trend, the commenting trend, where you kind of get together with a bunch of people and everybody comments on one another’s stuff. You know, it’s the same concept, only I was doing it with people that were in my newsletter and just asking for their support organically that way. And, you know, that, I think that helped me grow quickly. Just, just the fact that, you know, there was this audience transfer and this amplification on, on LinkedIn. on the platform itself. And then inside that post, there would be a CTA, a call to action to go to VeryGoodCopy.com if they wanted to read more. And VeryGoodCopy.com, if you look at it, I mean, it’s basically designed to get you into the newsletter. Like, you know, I don’t know how many thousands of CTAs there are across that site, but I would say 90% of them are designed to get you to subscribe. So it would just be a virtuous circle. People would see the post, they would go to the CTA, see that there’s more on VeryGoodCopy.com, they’d go to VeryGoodCopy, get into the newsletter, and the next time I sent out a newsletter, there would just be more people there to amplify the post. So I think there have been You know, over time, there’s diminishing returns like everything else. But in the very beginning, that was definitely an effective way to grow.
Rob Marsh: So I want to ask some follow ups on this. You started doing this when? Is this 2020 or before that? 2020 is when I left.
Eddie Shleyner: I think I started doing this about 2019. Okay.
Rob Marsh: And you were sending out how often? Once a week or less? More?
Eddie Shleyner: I think I was sending out once. I wasn’t that regimented. I mean, I think I was sending out once a week. That was my goal. I didn’t have any sponsors at that point or anything like that, so I wasn’t that obsessed with the frequency. But yeah, I think once a week is a pretty good estimate.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, the reason I ask, obviously, there are people teaching these things on LinkedIn, you know, post three times a week or whatever, and yet you were able to do it at least a few years ago, without that kind of frequency. How often do you post or share newsletters now?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, the newsletters still go out once a week, ideally. I take pretty frequent breaks, kind of like hiatuses. At least once a year, I’ll go three months and I’ll just kind of go a little dark. I won’t go on LinkedIn. I won’t send a newsletter out. Sometimes I’ll even kind of leave an away message on my email and I just won’t really check that or it won’t be that frequent. And usually that coincides with a big project that I’m doing, like this year was the book. So I took a couple months off and just kind of focused on doing the book. Last year was the course that I made and I just took like three months and literally just heads down, didn’t do anything else besides the course. And then sometimes it’s really just to kind of get back to, you know, like craft and just get back to what got me into this in the first place. You know, as a solopreneur, as somebody that’s doing this on their own, I think it’s really hard to balance craft and growth.
And for so long, you know, like in the very beginning, Kira, when we were talking about like, you know, how this all started and I was kind of walking through like, uh, you know, the, the, the, the impetus behind Very Good Copy, that was very much like a craft phase. I was trying to go from like zero to 80% and trying to learn the fundamentals of this discipline. And then after I got that down a little bit and I started writing these essays and sharing them, and I realized that there was an audience for it and there was some potential for a business there, then I became really interested in growth mode. And perhaps that was like, you know, a consequence of the people that I was around. I was around a lot of growth marketers, around people that were good at it and wanted to see me succeed.
So I just went into this kind of growth mode for a little while there, probably a couple of years where I was still writing and still trying to do my best work. But there was this kind of like, I don’t know, there was this tension between like, hey, how much time can I put into writing? And how much time do I need to put into all of the administrative work that goes into growing this thing? And I found over time that that was like, like a perfect way to burn out and a perfect way to really hate your life. You know, it’s just impossible to do all of that at once.
And so now I kind of oscillate between growth and doing all the things that I need to do to spread my work around the Internet and do it efficiently and do it in a way that’s going to be effective. And then every now and then I’ll be like, OK, a lot on that. I got to take a break and I got to really focus on going from you know, really focus on growth going like going from zero to 80% is easy. I think compared to going from 81% to 90%, you know, that’s super hard, you know, comparatively. And then going from like 91% to 95%, you know, is exponentially harder than the last phase, you know, and then going from like 96 to 99, you know, that’s exponentially harder. And then like going to getting to a hundred is probably a fool’s errand. Like that’s probably never going to happen. So it’s just like growth. or I’m sorry, like craft is just this ever increasingly difficult thing to do and to develop. And I think it just, it deserves time, like dedicated focused time. And so that’s what I try to, I try to do that whenever I can.
Rob Marsh: And last question about this entire process, at least for me, as you’re putting this out and talking about giving back to the craft and learning, sharing your insights, does customer acquisition come into it at all as you’re sharing? Are you posting on LinkedIn in order to attract clients? Or is it really about sharing what you’re learning?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, sometimes, yeah, if I’m heads down, I’m probably not posting. I’m probably just dark. My account just kind of sits there. Every now and then, I guess I will. But yeah, the client acquisition piece, I think it’s more like a subscriber acquisition. I think that’s what I’m focused on. I’m not focused on getting direct leads from LinkedIn. I’m focused on getting those folks in front of my brand, in front of Very Good Copy, into the newsletter. And then from the newsletter, that’s usually where people decide to work with me or decide to buy a sponsorship or decide to buy a consultation or my course or something like that. So once they’re in the newsletter, that’s when I think I have much more control over the message. And so that’s always my goal is to get people into the newsletter. whether they become clients or sponsors or consultees or what have you. It all happens in the newsletter, I guess is what I’m saying.
Kira Hug: What does it look like today? How are you getting paid the different ways… sponsorships, consulting. But what are you primarily focused on? Is it all spread out and you kind of have revenue coming in multiple ways at this point?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. So a few revenue streams, client work. I made a course and I’ve been selling it for about a year. So that’s a revenue stream. Sponsorships for the newsletter and then consultations. So people buy a couple hours of my time and then we’ll sit and talk about their problems. And it’s definitely shifted from the majority of my income coming from client work to the majority coming from just these products. So the course, hopefully the book, sells a few copies. I’m interested in productizing the brand as much as I can and creating things that scale. And I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing client work. I think as a copywriter, it keeps you fresh. Solving real world problems is a great way to stay on top of your craft and on top of your discipline. So I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing it. It’s just there’s obviously an opportunity cost there. If I’m doing client work, then I can’t take the time to create a course or write a book. And so there’s that give and take, and I just have to pick a lane. And so I’m trying to live in that lane, the productized lane.
Rob Marsh: the newsletter and sponsorships, the economics of that, if you’re willing to share. We had a few months ago, maybe a little more than a few months ago, John Bijakovic was on our podcast and talked a little bit about this newsletter he’s building outside of the copywriting space. I think there are a lot of people who are listening who would love to build a newsletter, whether that’s on Beehive or Substack or ConvertKit or wherever, and look at that as possibly its own business or a significant part of their income. I wish it was that easy, you know, put up a newsletter and suddenly you’re making lots of money, but we just kind of talk through the economics of how you do it. If you’re willing to share the numbers, awesome. If not, you can be a little bit generic, but just curious about what that looks like.
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. So yeah, the numbers fluctuate depending on how many subscribers there are and, and the time of year. And, and so, um, you know, the carrot that I kind of dangle over, over, over folks on the website is like, Hey, email me for, for rates. And so, you know, I can’t, I probably can’t share exactly what I’m charging. Um, you know, I’d like people to, I’d like to have those conversations one-on-one I think. But, uh, yeah, the economics are, um, yeah, they’re pretty simple. It’s a matrix, you know, and, and, uh, the more you buy, the more you save. And, um, you know, it’s, uh, It also depends on what your goal is. If your goal is conversion, then newsletters could be a good medium for you to advertise in. They could not be. Usually I like to go after folks that are interested in raising awareness and getting their brand in front of people, maybe associating their brand with very good copy. Yeah, so I certainly wouldn’t turn away anybody that wants to convert my subscribers into customers, but that would take a very specific offer, a very specific campaign, and we’d probably have to work together on that to make sure that it’s successful. But if it was an awareness campaign and they just wanted to get their logo out in front of 15, 20,000 people every time I send a newsletter, that’s a much easier conversation. And that does happen pretty often, actually.
Kira Hug: So if you’re, if I hire you and you’re my consultant and I also want to sell sponsorships to my newsletter, what advice would you give me as far as what’s realistic? Like how many people do I really need on my newsletter to even have a sponsorship conversation and be attractive to sponsors as a baseline? And then secondly, How do you create that win for your sponsor clients when it’s around awareness, which is sometimes harder to measure? It can be measurable, but it’s a little tricky at times as far as brand awareness and creating a win for them so they continue sponsoring in your newsletter.
Eddie Shleyner: Right. Well, I’ll answer the second one first. I think when it comes to awareness channels, it’s really about, hey, how many people saw this? you know, how many eyeballs from a very specific nature, a very specific discipline saw this. So if I could say, Hey, you know, every time I send out a newsletter, 20,000 marketers and copywriters are going to see your logo and your message above the fold. So it’s the first thing, you know, in my newsletter, it’s the ads are the first thing people see. UThat’s enough for them to say, Hey, that’s, that’s a win. And then if I could just show them the open rates, show them how many unique people opened it and saw the message. For a lot of people, that’s enough. Obviously, if you click through and you take an action on the other side of that click, then that’s obviously another KPI that they take into consideration. But from an awareness standpoint, yeah, sometimes it’s just enough to show people that logo. And a use case for that is like, hey, if you’re raising capital, maybe you’re raising your series A or B, and you just want to be a more known entity in the SaaS space or in the marketing space. That’s a big reason why people pick up ads in my newsletter, just to get that awareness level up. Your first question, I think that was about how many people in a newsletter?
Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, we have a, our audience wants, I mean, I’m sure many of them would like to do something similar, get sponsors, but maybe they have 2000 people on their list and they’re really excited about that. Is it realistic? You know, Hey, you probably need to get up to 10,000 before you have any conversations with sponsors or like a rough number.
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t discourage anybody. Um, from pursuing sponsors at really any size newsletter. Because I think what’s more important than the size is just the quality of those people and how alike they are, if that makes sense. If they’re all marketers, or they’re all copywriters, or they all have this one very specific interest, then it’s very valuable for people that are going after that group, that segment, to advertise with you, even if you have 100 people or 200 people? I think that’s my answer is, yeah, obviously, the bigger your newsletter, the bigger your audience, the more you can probably charge. But yeah, at the same rate, if you have 200 or 300 people that are fanatical about a certain subject and somebody with a product that’s aligned with that subject, once they get in front of those people, that’s still very valuable. And that could still turn into sales.
Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about audiences and all of that, I’m curious about the audience for your book. Actually, I’m curious about all things around your book, the decision to write it, your approach, methodology, what it’s about. Tell us a bit about that.
Eddie Shleyner: Sure. Yeah, I appreciate you, Rob. I mean, you know, the book is like very good copy.com, I think in print. You know, I, it’s a lot of people have asked me for some kind of like physical, tangible thing, you know, and I’ve never, I don’t know, maybe one day I’ll make hats or something or stickers, but that just never felt like the right thing to do, and I’ve always wanted to put my best work together into a book, and this is just that opportunity to do it, I think. It’s just, you know, it’s 10 years into Very Good Copy, and I would love to, you know, present all of these essays that I’ve written in a new kind of fresh way. And so I’ve been taking some time to go back and edit like my, all of my, all of the articles that would make it into the book, which is actually, it’s kind of a horrifying thing because it’s like, I can’t believe I, I published this at one point. It’s just incredible, like how much you, I guess, develop when you do something every single day and, you know, just reading some of my work back, it’s just, it’s just unbelievable to me. So I think if there’s anything that I’ve learned in the process, it’s that, you know, That craft bar is constantly moving, or it should be. And as it does, you are going to be extremely unsatisfied with a lot of the stuff that you’ve done in the past, a lot of the work that you’ve done, or at least I have been. So yeah, it’s been kind of an interesting process going back and editing and arranging everything. But that’s what the book is. It’s very good copy.com in print. you know, organized and arranged in a way that I think makes a little bit more sense than the website. And it has the benefit of being like me today, as opposed to me four or five or six or 10 years ago.
Kira Hug: And how does it fit in? I mean, other than you’re excited about it and it’s important to you, how do you see it fitting into the business? Is it like, OK, this is another great way to get people on my list and get them into my world or another purpose?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I think it’s just another product under the umbrella. And it’s a much more accessible product, I guess. hundreds of dollars and being purchased by folks that have a very specific goal or need in mind, a very specific problem that they’re trying to solve for. The book is probably a much more reasonable price point, a book price point, and it’s much more accessible to people and I feel like it could do a lot of the marketing for a very good copy as well. If people buy the book first and then they can make it into my ecosystem that way instead of seeing me on LinkedIn or Twitter or something first. So yeah, I think it’s a product. It’s a marketing channel. And then it’s also just something that would feed my soul, I think, and make me happy. And a lot of times that’s very much overlooked. by creators. It’s like, what can I do to get bigger, faster? And, you know, a lot of the joy is sucked out of this profession when you do that. You know, a lot of the reason why we started doing this in the first place becomes kind of null and void when it’s all about growth and it’s all about how fast can we grow. And, you know, you start looking at it as a competition between creators. It becomes really unhealthy. So it’s one of those things where, like I said, it’s something that’s gonna feed my soul and give me energy at the end of the day so that I can hopefully go out and put on part two and part three and part four.
Rob Marsh: And when can we expect the book? When’s it hitting store shelves by us?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, so it should be this spring, so spring 2024. Yeah, probably like May, probably like May. I’m gonna send you guys copies. because I really appreciate you.
Rob Marsh: It’s amazing. Okay, so you mentioned earlier, especially with these big projects that burnout can become a thing. We’ve talked a little bit about your experience with that and how you push through it or overcome it or deal with it. I know there’s a lot of different approaches to burnout and making sure that stuff gets done. Just how do you look at those kinds of challenges?
Eddie Shleyner: Well, for a while I just kind of white knuckled it, you know, like I was just like, man, I’m tired. You know, you wake up when you’re burnt out, you wake up and you’re like, man, I, I really just don’t want to do this. I think it’s a hard thing to describe. It’s not like the most tangible sensation. It’s just like this feeling that, Hey, this thing that I once loved or that once gave me energy is now sucking it out of me. And, um, you know, for a while I, I, uh, I just kind of white knuckled it because I was balancing G2 and I was balancing this newsletter and I was balancing the ebbs and flows of that. Not everything I put out was successful. I just kind of forced it and that would usually make the problem worse. I would usually become more unhappy. I’m more anxious. And so that’s when I would start taking these kinds of breaks, these two, three month kind of hiatuses. And I realized that that’s kind of a luxury and not everybody can do that. But at that point in my career, I felt like I was so deep into it that that’s what I had to do, was just step away. So that’s how I dealt with it.
Now having kids and living kind of a more family life, I’m forced to not be in my work constantly. Not forced, that’s the wrong word. My priorities have shifted. I want to be with my family. I want to be with my kids. That’s the most important thing in my life now. And so I’m not constantly around work and I’m not constantly in work. And that’s really kind of healed the problem for me. It’s just like knowing that, hey, I have a certain amount of time, you know, that I can allocate to work every single day. And I just got to come in and I got five hours and I start the clock and I just see what happens. I just see what I can put out, you know. And then after that time’s up, go pick up the kids, go do that thing, you know. And it’s forced these boundaries. Whereas before, I didn’t really have those boundaries. Before, I was just so dedicated to making this thing successful that I might work 80 or 90 hours a week in a silo, not really having a lot of people around me to tell me, hey, you need to back off of this right now. So yeah, I think that’s what That’s the way I see it now is I have these boundaries that I have to respect. And that keeps the burnout at bay, I think, because I’m just not in it. I’m just not doing the work. And so I’m not doing as much work, I guess.
Kira Hug: Yeah. Kids make really good boundaries. Yeah. They help. They help, definitely.
Rob Marsh: They also step all over your boundaries.
Kira Hug: They create burnout in other ways, but we don’t have to get into that.
Eddie Shleyner: Did that make sense, Rob? I mean, I’m not sure if I’m answering it right, but I don’t know how else to put it. Burnout is such a strange thing. You just have to-
Kira Hug: I mean, you addressed it with this sabbatical that you’re taking. It’s like, I want to hear more about that. I mean, OK, I’m listening. I’m like, that sounds great. You’ve talked about it maybe a couple times with Sage Polaris, right? And maybe it’s come up in a couple other conversations. But a lot of people aren’t taking these sabbaticals, even though they’re focused. It’s not like you’re just going to the beach. You’re working on projects. So what advice would you give us? so that maybe we could do it? I mean, is it like, hey, you gotta go really hard in September and October, bring in a lot of client work, and then the best time is to take it over the holidays, take a couple months, come back in February, and get this going? Like, what works, practically speaking, to make this work for you?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I mean, the timing is a very personal thing, right? It’s like, you know, I usually take them in November, December, January, because that’s a slow time anyway. And I think the opportunity cost of taking it in that quarter or towards the end of the year in general is just lower. And it probably just aligns with when I’m most tired. I don’t know. It’s the end of the year, and I’ve been going for a while. And you just want to take some time to relax and be with your people. But it depends. I remember Brian Clark saying that Copyblogger would go on this really low maintenance schedule in the summer because you only have so many summers and you want to get out there and do things in the summer. And so that was when the Copyblogger team would go out and be with their people and be with their family and do their thing and kind of take these little mini sabbaticals where they didn’t work as much. So the timing is completely up to you. And from an economic standpoint, that’s also pretty personal. It’s like, how much are you willing to take on in order to be comfortable for the next four, eight, or 12 weeks without work? So there is a fair bit of planning that has to go into it. It’s just a matter of how prepared are you to plan and how well can you stick to that game plan in order to enable it. And then I think the third piece is just like, do you have something really important that you want to do in that time? For me, there was the goal of creating the course or getting this book off the ground. Sometimes it’s like, hey, my daughter’s zero days old. I just want to be there for the first three months and just make sure that I’m experiencing this part of her life, you know? Everybody has their own kind of motivations, I think. But it’s just like, yeah, it’s just kind of at the intersection of like, is the timing right for you? Can you get the planning right? And then there’s something really compelling that is worth kind of taking your attention away from more
Rob Marsh: So you may have just answered this question because I was thinking through like, what does the sabbatical look like on a day to day basis? Obviously, you know, if you’re spending time with your kids, you’re working on a project like a book, that’s a big part of it. I imagine that if I were to set aside time for myself to take a sabbatical, day one would start with a lot of Netflix catching up and time wasting. It’s not really wasting if you’re getting something out of it, but a lot of vegetation as opposed to letting me rejuvenate my creative juices in some way, right? So I’m curious if there are things that you’re doing specifically during that time period that you’ve set aside or is it just letting life come as it is and you just know at the end of the three months or two months, whatever that timeline is, you’re going to kick back in and start working just like you always did.
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. Well, for a while, I did have that kind of feeling of like, Hey, if you know, even if I’m taking a break, I still need to be doing something semi-productive. And I think I read a book called, uh, 4,000 weeks by Oliver Burkeman.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. Oliver Berkman.
Eddie Shleyner: That’s right. You’ve read it. I think it’s safe to say we could recommend that book to anybody because it’s, it, it speaks to this. compulsion that people have to constantly be doing something, even when they’re supposed to be taking a break. Just constantly be doing something productive, useful, and maybe that’s not always necessary. Maybe it is just necessary to just totally turn off and feel bored or feel like you’re not getting anything done. And maybe that’s what you need in order to incubate properly and rest properly.
And so I read that book. I read it a couple times because it was just so fascinating to me. I was like, man, I’ve been living my life kind of the wrong way for a long time. And like on one hand, I was kind of, you know, like this like workaholism kind of enabled Very Good Copy and enabled my career. And so it’s hard to condemn it completely, but maybe I just read the book at the right time in my life where this is the ethos that I need in order to sustain the longevity that, you know, a creative career demands, you know. This type of work is really hard and it’s really taxing. And so maybe it only makes sense that, you know, it’s easy in the same way when you’re taking a break. And it’s mindless in the same way when you’re taking a break.
So to answer your question, what does it look like? I kind of work. Like Austin Kleon once said, he was like, I come to work and I put in my hours like a banker. Just four hours, five hours, I see what gets done. I do that. But then also, when I’m away, I’m away. And I binge on Netflix. put the kids down and just kind of try to do nothing. And it’s a stark contrast from the way that it used to be because it’s like I’ve been living a pretty domesticated kind of existence for a while now since my kids were born. So it’s not like, you know, I would put them down and be going out or be doing anything too crazy. I’ll go on the couch, but I would go on the couch and write, you know, I’ll go on the couch and I’d watch something. And I couldn’t get through the show because I would be like, oh, that’s a great idea. And I would pull out my phone and start writing something. Yeah, again, it’s like it’s a double edged sword because those habits enabled a lot of the work that I’ve done. But at the same time, they also burned me out in ways that made me really unhappy.
And so I think coming out on the other side of it, I think the latter is more important. You know, your long term happiness and your long term mental health are going to enable your long term creativity and this career that we’re all trying to kind of make it in. So I prioritize, I guess, those habits now. So, you know, during a sabbatical, that’s what I do. I put in my hours like a banker and then I shut off and I don’t put undue pressure on myself because whatever, you know, we’re all dust in the end anyway. So it’s like, why am I doing it?
Kira Hug: How old are your kids now?
Eddie Shleyner: Bo is two and a half and Sophia is almost six months.
Kira Hug: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. So what does the future look like for you? I mean you are someone who seems you’re a planner in some ways enough to plan sabbaticals and so you’re thinking about longevity. It’s important to you. What do you see as your future also considering dramatic changes we’ve seen in the creative space over the last few years with AI and other shifts? How does that change what you’re thinking about if it does change anything?
Eddie Shleyner: well, I’d like to just I’d like to keep doing what I’m when I’m doing, you know, I think you know, I like thinking deeply about what brings me the most satisfaction is is writing these these micro essays and and putting together resources that help folks. And so I’m really interested in continuing along that path and being consistent with my output as far as the essays go. And, you guys ever seen that Giru Dreams of Sushi documentary? I love that documentary. It’s so good. It’s excellent, Kira. If you get a chance, I don’t know where it’s streaming, but it’s streaming somewhere, probably Hulu. But it’s an excellent documentary about this. I mean, during the filming, he was probably 85 years old. He was a sushi chef. And he was just obsessed with creating the same 30 or 40 pieces of sushi and doing it as best as he could. And I drew a lot of inspiration from that. And I would love to just get as good as I can at writing these essays. you know, putting out the best product I can and hopefully just putting out more and more volumes of these anthologies. That would be like a dream come true for me. And I guess the way AI plays into that is, you know, I guess time will tell. We’ll see where AI goes. But right now, I don’t think that AI is capable of really emulating, you know, like the human condition. expressing humanity and these really human moments that we all go through in a really accurate and authentic way. And I think a lot of my work is rooted in my life, my experiences, my people, the things that I’ve done, the anecdotes that I’ve come into. That’s the formula for these essays. I’ll take some kind of story, some kind of narrative about my life. And then I’ll take a lesson about copywriting or creativity, and I’ll see if I could put those together in a kind of flush way in a certain number of words. Those are the three, I guess, prongs or pieces to each one of those essays. And so I think that AI can probably teach the lessons, but it can’t really replicate those really specific human moments that I’m referencing. And so I don’t see it playing a huge part in the future, a very good copy at least.
Rob Marsh: Eddie, thanks for sharing so much about your business and what you’ve been working on, how you grew. I think it’s fascinating and a lot of good lessons to take from that. If somebody wants to get on your list, Join the other 15 to 20,000 people who are there getting your essays, notified about your book. Where should they go?
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, just go to verygoodcopy.com. That’s home base. And that’s where they can get access to the full library. They can subscribe to the newsletter there. They can get on the waitlist for the book there. They can get the course there. That’s home base. So verygoodcopy.com is the place to go for sure.
Kira Hug: Awesome. Thank you, Eddie. Appreciate it.
Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I appreciate you guys. Thank you.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Eddie Schleiner. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation, give you a little bit more to think about. Eddie mentioned the book that he loved. It’s called the Adweek Copywriting Handbook. That book is also known as Advertising Secrets of the Written Word. It’s actually the same book. There’s two different titles. One was printed by Adweek magazine, and the other I think was printed by Joe. It really is one of the better books about response-driven copy, how you get people to engage emotionally, how to write headlines, how to find ideas. It’s worth picking up your own copy of that book and we’ll link to it in the show notes in case you want an easy link to do that.
When Eddie mentioned being told by a mentor that he writes like a fire hose and needs to write more like a nail gun, I thought that was a brilliant illustration of the rule of one. As a writer, you can’t write to everyone. You have to write to your prospect, the buyer. Seeing them as a unique person rather than a large group of buyers or people with a particular challenge or problem, it changes the way that we write as copywriters and as content writers. And by the way, the same thing applies to going out there and finding clients. Take the nail gun approach rather than a fire hose approach. You will connect with your prospects better than if you try to talk to everybody in every niche about every kind of project.
Let’s also talk about this idea of sabbatical. So Kira mentioned that this first came up on the podcast a long time ago when we were talking to Sage Polaris way back on episode 32 when she talked about taking four months off every year. It might be worth a listen if you like that idea. It also came up on episode 68 with Ashlyn Carter and again on episode 285 with Tyler McCall. So check out Those other episodes, 32, 68, 285, if you want to dive more into this idea of taking a sabbatical. The idea of taking time off or away from your business is a powerful one. Whether you do what Eddie did and you focus on a project like writing a book, or you’re just getting away from everything to recharge your batteries and refill the creative tank, it’s worth considering doing. Now, you may not be able to take a month off each quarter or even more than a few days in a quarter or in a year. I still think that it’s helpful to think about taking time away, away from clients, away from your desk, away from projects, away from the laptop, away from pitching and marketing, or even thinking about pitching and marketing. It helps light the fire again if you’re burned out, or it helps you avoid the burnout in the first place. Taking time away for weekends, for evenings, putting the work aside is critically important. Sometimes it’s not even taking away time from your business as much as it is just changing the scenery. So go work somewhere else for a day or two or for a week or two if you can. Go to the library instead of working in your basement or the kitchen table or in your office. Get a hotel room and work there. Go sit in the park if you’ve got a laptop. Just change your environment if you can’t stop working right now. And even if that’s not possible, start planning for a future sabbatical or a week off where you can leave everything behind other than maybe a notebook and a pen and just be off. If you make it happen, I’d really like to hear about it, the impact that it has on your thinking and what you bring back to your business.
Okay, thanks to Eddie Schleiner for joining us to chat about his business and becoming a copywriter, that process that we all go through. Be sure to check out Eddie. He’s on LinkedIn. He’s also at verygoodcopy.com where you can subscribe to his newsletter and watch for his book coming out in the next couple of weeks.
Most copywriters and content writers don’t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that’s a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
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Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again.
But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient.
And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason.
Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let’s kick off with your story. Let’s start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let’s start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry.
Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don’t even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box.
And so there was a company name there. I was like, I’m going to work for that company and I’m going to go on tour with Rush and I’m going to do this. And over the years, I’ve just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn’t all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work.
But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesome. And then I went out with Rush, which was my dream. And I also went out with Peter Gabriel as a tour and a variety of other smaller groups that probably most people don’t know. But it was this culmination of setting that intention and having that kind of clarity of goal and just knowing that you’re going to do it. And yeah.
And so it was a wild journey, being out on the road, doing those shows, like being in a situation where you are playing to an audience, right? We all do this in our businesses. We all have an audience. We have customers, we have prospects, but being in that environment where everyone is in a concert, we get there hours earlier, we’re tailgating, we’re sitting there, we’re listening to the songs. We’re so excited about what’s going to happen.
What would happen if your customers were doing that with your business? They showed up early getting in the mood to learn from you or work with you or do something. And then when they’re there, all the problems in the world fade away and they are so present and they’re so involved and they’re engaged and they’re on their feet, they’re dancing, they’re jumping, they’re singing along, they’re sharing your words and singing your song for you. And then at the end, they go crazy with the standing ovation.
I grew up with that over and over and over again. It’s intoxicating, right? And so being with these groups, you learn this. It’s like the Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. You start to see the things, the techniques, the tactics that you use that elicit that kind of response night after night with new people, different audiences, different crowds, how you get them that level of engagement. It was pretty cool. And for the people on the team, the employees, there’s no better place to work than when you’re creating that kind of joy and excitement and engagement with people.
So you see the front stage, what’s going on with the customers and the backstage, what’s going on with the team. And it was amazing. So I started there and then I went on to do some more legit theater. So Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar, Man of La Mancha, same experience, right? Night after night, getting those audiences to have that kind of experience and have that transformation and playing a role, it was super fulfilling, super exciting.
Rob Marsh: So while we’re talking about that part of your career… that gets me thinking. Obviously, the experience is everything, but there’s so much behind the scenes that goes into creating the experience. I mean lighting is just part of it, right? And as you’re talking about it, I’m thinking about the message that we have as copywriters—or whatever businesses we’re running—is a little bit like the music. We sit down, the musician sits down, writes a song, But then all of this other stuff has to happen to create an experience that is amazing. So talk just a little bit about the elements of how that all comes together. And obviously, the interest is in how you put together a rock concert for someone like Rush or U2 or whatever. But I really want to apply this to my business. What are those elements that I need to be thinking about in order to create an awe experience?
Jason Friedman: Yeah. I love the question. Let me just start off by saying, like defining what I think experience is. So we have a frame of reference to level set, right? So, when I think of the word experience, experience is not something you do. Experience is something that someone has. It’s not the cause, it’s the effect, right? So experience in my mind, a customer experience, it’s the result of all the things you’ve done, right? That allows the customer to feel something. So experience is a customer’s perception of the interactions that they’ve had with your brand, with your business, with your copy, with whatever it is, right? It’s a feeling and it’s their perception of that feeling.
It changes based on where they start, right? If I come in and I’m having a horrible day, you’re starting with me from a very different place than if I came just off that rock concert and I’m on a high, right? And part of understanding all of these things is how do we bring people in? What is that onboarding, if you will, that gets people in? And how do we look at our different customers or different avatars or personas who are going to be interacting with us, and understanding how to meet them where they are? It’s not a one size fits all approach. And most businesses, most organizations, we kind of treat people that way, which is like, oh, here’s the journey. And here’s how people are going to come into our world. And we just assume it’s going to be a fit for everybody.
So as we think about this, as you think about your copy, I’m not a world-class copywriter. I wish I was, but I know enough that I try to paint pictures with words. And I try to use as many senses as I can trigger and interact with. And I do that in my copy, but I do that in my business. And so I think about how do I? In a theatrical show, the script is one thing. When the words matter, there’s a script. Right. That’s true. When the words matter, there’s a script. And the beauty of having a script is that as we start to put it together, like in the show. If I want an audience to laugh at exactly this moment, night after night, I can get them there with the script, with the acting, with the scenes, with all the other elements that I put in place. And when I’ve done that, I’ve actually been able to repeat that consistently, reliably with different audiences in different cities, night after night.
So how does that work? It’s all the elements. It’s the way that the lines are delivered. It’s not just the words written. It’s how the person says them. The actor or actress recites those words. It’s how the other person reacts to those words. It’s the costumes, it’s the lighting, it’s the scenery, it’s the environment, it’s the colors, it’s the textures of things. It enhances the mood and it sets us up. Just like we’re talking about when people come to the rock concert, they get there, they’re tailgating, they’re having a drink or they’re eating some food and they’re playing the different songs in the background and there’s other people singing. All of the environment, all of the elements come together and they affect how someone’s feeling about that situation.
And so in your business, as you’re writing copy, ask how do I paint that picture for someone where they really have that feeling? Because it’s that’s where that’s where the rubber meets the road. Right. And so what we do with clients all the time is we start at the end. We don’t start at the beginning. We don’t just start writing some copy or start designing a customer journey or deciding what the first moment has to be. We actually go all the way to the end and we say, look, They just finished reading your copy. They just finished attending your show. They just finished an amazing Zoom mastermind meeting, whatever it happens to be. What would the ideal, most amazing customer testimonial be? We call this the ideal customer script, because again, when the words matter, there’s a script.
So what we want you to do is we want you to script that ideal customer reaction, the best word of mouth testimonial they could ever give it. But we don’t want you to do it based on what most people consider the result. Most people consider the result like if I’m selling something for weight loss, it’s like I’m going to lose 20 pounds in 30 days. That’s not the result. The result that I want you to focus on is that I feel better in my clothes, that I was the person that was sitting on the couch and my friend would call me to go out and I would say, I’m sorry, I can’t go out tonight because I would dread walking into my closet and seeing that nothing fit me and I didn’t want to go out. But now I’m actually calling my friends saying, hey, let’s go out. I have like all these different clothes I can pick from. I’m actually not sitting on the couch with a shovel of ice cream going to my mouth. I feel good and I’m doing things. I’m active and I’m living my life. We want people to tell that journey. I was nervous when I first started. I’ve tried so many things. So we want the journey, the testimonial, that ideal customer script really illuminates their journey and the emotional rollercoaster ride they went on and shows these mile markers, these moments where they’ve had these transitions all along that way.
When you’re able to help your clients do that and see that and feel that, now I can reverse engineer the whole journey that the customers go on so that those moments happen for them. I can reverse engineer what has to happen. And that’s how we do it in theater, right? We have the script, we know what we want it to be. Now we say, how do we stage the show? How do we bring that script to life in a way that we get that laugh at exactly that moment, night after night?
So what we teach people how to do really is build a business operating system that allows them to scale their business. They get consistent results time after time again, that gets the response. Because that marketing, those testimonials, those, when your customers say those, that’s what you’re going to start using on the front end of your funnel. I want you to flip your funnel. I want you to focus on the results that people are getting and become so obsessed with your customer results that that is your marketing. Your experience is your marketing. That’s when we put $1 in ads and we get 20, 40, 60, 100, 1,000 back because we know that the conveyor belt that’s bringing people through your program is going to get results night after night after night.
Kira Hug: So this is fun because it has been a couple of years since we last sat through your workshop. And hearing you talk through this, this is the part that stuck the most. And this is the part where I’ve been quoting Jason for years. But it’s the mile marker piece here and the emotional roller coaster and that we can really reverse engineer that for our customers and clients. Could you talk more about the mile markers and how to view that along the journey from the perspective of a copywriter who’s working in a service based business and is thinking, if I’m working with this client over the next month, delivering a sales page, how should I think about these mile markers?
Jason Friedman: Yeah. You’re going to have to help me with this a little bit. We’ll do this together, right? So I’ll, I’ll be the client and you’re probably the copywriter cause I haven’t worked that way, but I have worked with copywriters and I’ve been in that. I think the biggest thing, like when you’re thinking about a journey, is let’s start at the beginning. The most important thing in the beginning, we have a first impression, right? First impressions matter. It sounds very cliche, but it really does. It sets the tone for everything. And so we have to think about onboarding in the beginning, right?
Now, I believe that onboarding actually happens many times in the relationship with a customer, with a spouse, with friends, with everybody, right? Onboarding is something that you do every time there’s a transition in the relationship. So when I first come into your world, before I hired you, you have to onboard me into your universe. I might only be problem aware, I might be solution aware, I might be brand aware, but we have three different kinds of people that maybe coming in and they’re at different places. So how do I bring them in and get them to a place where we kind of have a baseline to have a conversation? So there’s onboarding that happens there.
Now let’s say you hire me, right? Now I have to do an onboarding there because the relationship just transitioned again. And now there might be another major transition where we finished our first project, now we’re going to a second project. There might be another onboarding that happens there. So onboarding is something I like to think of as how do I welcome people in and set and manage expectations and set things up for success as a key shift in a relationship, right? So onboarding is going to happen all the time.
Now, onboarding is not logistics and housekeeping, although most people believe that it is. And so imagine that I just hired you. You’re my copywriter. And you’re like, awesome, Jason. Here’s everything that I need from you and everything you have to do. I just hired this person. You just gave me seven months worth of homework. I want to die. Why did I hire this person? So what we need to do in onboarding is we need to bite size our onboarding in a way that brings people in. We want to bring people in. We want to set expectations. but we want to guide them through an experience that doesn’t overwhelm, right? Because when someone buys something from you, when someone signs a contract, they buy a product, a service, an online course, offline course, it doesn’t matter. I believe that is an intention, not a commitment. It’s an intention, not a commitment.
And so part of that onboarding is like buyer’s remorse is going to set in pretty quickly. Did I make the right decision? The itty bitty shitty committee inside their head is going to start going in cycles wondering, is this the right thing? And so we have to help them reassure and reaffirm that it was a good decision. And if we’re overloading them and overwhelming them, we’re going to do ourselves a disservice, right? So just psychologically speaking, like we’re dealing with cognitive biases. They may have stuff that happened in the past when they hired someone that’s coming up for them because it feels similar. And now you’re maybe at a disservice because they were used to it, they got that with a hot copywriter before. And that was, they almost had the same email. And now they’re like, Oh my God, that didn’t work out. This is going to be bad. So we have to think about those things. Like they’re coming with their own baggage with their own experience.
So what I, what I like people to do is I want you to find, we call it the time to first value. I want you to find the fastest, shortest way to get them a win as soon as someone starts with So that first mile marker, like you’re going to give them some onboarding, you’re going to welcome them in. And then the first thing I want you to do is, how do I get them a win? Now, what is a win? A win is a perception of success. And it’s not going to be that they got their first bit of copy finished and it’s awesome. That’s a big, big, big win, right? That’s down the road. What’s a little win that gets them to say, wow, this is good. This is working.
So as you start to think about that, I want you to think of these mile markers as wins or key milestones that someone sees that they’re moving in the right direction. They have momentum. They’re making forward progress. Right. And so if you wrote that script already, you know what some of those key moments are going to be because you put yourself in the shoes of the customer. You looked at it from their lens. One of the tricks that we like to do is use theater again. Imagine that you’re Matthew McConaughey and you’re playing this character on stage. How do you get into character? I want you to think about that. I want you to think like if you were going to be your customer, you were going to go to the grocery store as your customer, what would you be thinking when you walked into the grocery store? What kind of mood would you be in? What car did you drive in with? How would you, you know, what do you dress as? How do you feel? Are you, are you someone that’s going to say hello to everybody? Or are you going to kind of be in your own place and not looking around? We need to know how you could believably portray your character on stage, like Matthew McConaughey.
And so as you start to put yourself in that role, what would that first win be? What do I need to feel confident and say, wow, this was great? And so you’re going to do that with your script, and then you’re going to reverse engineer and start saying, what is that first win? What’s the next cool thing? And as you start to look at all these things, you can really analyze what success looks like.
Now, the other mistake that I see most people make is that we measure against the ultimate result. So it’s like, oh, I didn’t get there yet. When you measure against the ideal result, it’s always going to be a negative number until you get there. It’s never going to be enough. So I want you to actually measure from where people started. Because it’s always going to then be a positive number. I’ve made progress to here. Now I’m here. And so our job, if we want our customers to feel good and see the momentum and see that they’re making progress with us, we have to show them. We have to communicate that.
So in your copywriter example, how do I know what those key stages are? And how do I know? Oh, awesome. I’m on step three. We’ve already made it through step three and we’re only in two. That’s awesome. That’s amazing. Right. And let’s say that step four is going to be much bigger to get from step three to step four is going to take longer. That’s a bigger lift. Well, I accurately communicate those expectations. I set and manage those expectations. Because it’s like I think about it like in our business, like what we help people do is figure out how do we create this perfect journey, right? This ideal journey that gets people from point A to point B and allows it to be as smooth as possible, right? So imagine that you’re on a water slide at a pool. You go down this crazy water slide, you’re at a cool resort, but there’s not quite enough water. And so you get stuck and you chafe a little bit, right? And then all of a sudden, they realize, oh, there’s a lot of friction there. It’s not working. And they turn up the water. And all of a sudden, the water starts flowing, and you start going, and you’re going up and down. And even if you’re going uphill, there’s enough movement and momentum that you keep going smoothly and fluidly through that experience. We want your journey to be that fluid experience. We need to remove and reduce as much friction along that journey.
So if you think about it from your customer’s perspective, what are the hardest parts? Part of it is not knowing what the next step is. Part of it might not be not knowing where we’re headed or when we’re going to get there. Part of it might be that you’re off in your own place doing all this amazing work. You’re researching, you’re writing, you’re testing, you’re doing all the things, but we don’t know because we’re not seeing it real time. So we don’t know what’s going on. So communication might be, oh my gosh, I just had some amazing things. Like here’s a little snippet. I can’t wait to share the rest of it with you. It might be that showing that you’re engaged and you’re excited that gets them to feel really you know, part of the process with you that there’s like a little bit of co-creation going on, maybe, or maybe it’s just updates. It depends on the client, right? But as you think about that journey, like, how do you make it better?
So if the step three to step four is a bigger lift, it’s like you need to build up a little more momentum to get them over that hump. If you’re driving a car, if you hit the accelerator, and you’re holding it at a steady pace, you’re just going and all of a sudden you hit a hill, you have to hit the accelerator more to get up that hill. So what do you do between step three and four to give it a little bit of a boost for them to know this is a longer spot or this is a harder piece. Or once we get to this place, it’s all downhill and it’s gonna be smooth sailing. It’s just gonna take a little longer. So bear with me, here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna check in with you, you know, once a week for the next three weeks and just kind of keep you up on the progress. If you have any questions, you know, whatever that is. But you’re setting and managing those expectations all the way through, those mile markers help them.
And when you share things that will help them feel confident about the work that you’re doing, like maybe it’s like those, like those little nuggets of like some samples or some little pieces or just letting them feel reassured that you’re on the same page. And we’re like, what I’m going to see when it comes out is actually going to be aligned with what I’m looking for. You’re going to find that they’re pretty happy and they’re pretty excited about it. And those are things that they’ll probably tell other people about later because it meant something. Not everyone else is doing that, right?
Kira Hug: It’s so amazing because I’m so proud of my onboarding. I have my email and it has all the things my clients need to do for me and it’s really well organized and it actually works pretty well. But when I hear you talk about it this way, I’m like, I’m overwhelming them at step one. Could I break it up and just give them a piece of it? And could I also create some type of roadmap of visual because I’m a visual person to show them all the steps and to track like, here’s where we are. What do you recommend?
Rob Marsh: At the very least, Kira, you need to be sending them like a protein bar so they have the energy to get through it.
Kira Hug: It’s interesting too because I thought I was doing a good job by being organized and just getting it all in one email because otherwise I’m worried they’re going to lose emails and it’s all scattered. But it sounds like that actually isn’t the most efficient way of doing this.
Jason Friedman: Every business is different. And so I think you’re right to be thinking about it. And most of us are like, oh, I’m doing a great job. Nobody’s complaining. That’s not necessarily the best measure of success. How long does it take people to complete? Could they get it done faster and would it make them feel better and you if we did it and we broke it up? Now, some of us also like to bin. Can we like it all in one email? So maybe when you first talk to me, say, hey, listen, I want to actually tailor the onboarding experience to you.
Let me ask you three questions so I know how to best set you up for success. And you actually tailor that. If it’s someone that says, look, give me everything at once, organized neatly, that’s great. Or it’s like, hey, listen, I like to like, you know, I like to kind of break it up. So, you know, it might be that, right. And it might be like that. There’s something that they do when they submit step one, step two, step three, and it just triggers another note back saying, awesome, congratulations, you finished step one. As you know, from our initial email, this is your next step. Looking forward to hearing back or whatever. It could be that, I don’t know. Again, I don’t know your specific process, but think about it from that perspective. where it can be more like choosing your own adventure, right? It’s like, I can go and do it as I want. And some of us like to binge, right? So like, if I’m doing all this and I decide, hey, you know what, Saturday is my day, I’m gonna kind of get everything set up for Kira so that I have all the stuff in place, then I might want everything in one spot, or at least know that I have all the information, but here’s my first mission, is this. So just look at it through the lens of the customer. Because what you said is exactly how we all think. I organized it. I made sure that’s all clear and whatever, because it’s easier for me as the business to have it all clean and then get it off my plate and get it over to you. It’s just writer’s logic versus reader’s logic.
You know what you’re saying. You know what you’re thinking. But are they getting the same message when they read that thing? So I would just encourage anybody. How do I make it better for my customers so that they feel that it’s not overwhelming? And it could be calling it out, saying, hey, listen, congratulations, this is the first step. We’re so excited you’re working with us. Iin order to give you the big overview, I’ve actually attached a document that has everything that you need to do. But for right now, I really need you to focus on these two things. So you can do both. I think it’s just, it’s just thinking about your avatars. And if you have different avatars in your business, how do I mass customize it? How do I make it so that they all feel like it’s done the way that they most need it? And there’s probably a way to do it where, like I just gave that example, maybe you have both within one email and they’re covered.
Rob Marsh: Jason, as we’re talking about this customer experience, I want to go back to your story and your career path because I think it’s really helpful to see other examples, maybe outside of the copywriting world, the marketing world, where you are basically producing these kinds of customer experiences. So as you look you left the theater world—or maybe you never really left the theater world because that’s really what you’re doing—instead of doing it for Broadway shows, I know you started doing some of this stuff in retail environments. Will you tell us how your career evolved from there?
Jason Friedman: When I, when I started I was brought in to help bring theatricality to retail. So we were bringing in technology like lighting and sound and scent you know, like, because they wanted to kind of zhuzh it up, if you will, right? It started, I’m going to date myself right now, but this was in 1997, 1998. And so at that time, online shopping was just becoming a thing, right? I know many people listening to this probably don’t remember a time when you couldn’t go on Amazon, but it was pre Amazon. And so what they wanted to do was make sure that people came to their store and they found value in being in the store versus just going to some random online, shop. And so the first client was Foot Locker. And they brought us in to help them create what we were calling a store of the future at the time. Like what would an ideal shopping experience look like? How would we take the current shoe store shopping experience and make it be something special so that it would beat the online market?
Rob Marsh: And at the time, shoe stores were like racks of shoes. You’d walk in and that was it.
Jason Friedman: There were boxes stacked up. There was like a sample on top of that. They had some merchandising along the walls, like slat wall design and whatever. It was mildly functional. So they had a bunch of extra inventory in the back and you had shoe jockeys running back and forth, getting stuff and trying to help you and kind of ignoring you when they were helping somebody else. And it was, it was messy. So we did some work and really started to understand what would be the ideal experience for people? They wanted to find what they wanted quickly, but what we also learned was that as people spent more time, shopping and browsing in the store, you know, feeling good about it, excited and engaged in it, they would actually spend more money. The average order value would go up, right? Makes sense.
So we, we redesigned the store quite dramatically, where it would tell stories. And so imagine that the store actually kind of came to life. So you’d walk in the store, and you would feel like you should go to the left, you could go to the right, but you’d feel like you should go to the left. And so the store was kind of guiding you in, and it was partially the way the merchandising was set up. It was partially the way the lighting was moving you, like it was actually moving you through there. Audio was moving around the space, and you just kind of felt like naturally this is the way to go. And as you go through, TV screens and sounds and whatever, the store would come to life.
And it was about athleticism. So we had media that we were producing that would get you in the mood and would be stuff about basketball and, you know, elevating your heartbeat and all sorts of fun stuff. And everything was organized in a different way. And we would feature different products, the way lighting would focus on it. So if you know the Foot Locker, they have this like a crazy, like referee guy is like their logo and he has like a whistle hanging out. So all of a sudden you’re like tweet, tweet, tweet. And then all the lights would pivot and go and they’d highlight a specific product. And then a promotion would come up on the screens for it.
Now, what was happening is people were actually excited about the store. They were going and they would look at the products that were being featured. It was organized in a way that let them find things and was also exciting for them to go and discover more things. So they weren’t just there. They came in like, I want to find this shoe. And they said, wow, like, let me see what else they have. And so what ended up happening through that first store that we built is they had a 400 percent increase in sales. Wait, what? Boom. So they’re like, OK, that’s crazy. Let’s try this again. Let’s do another pilot. The first one we did was in Watertown, Massachusetts, just outside Boston. The second one we did was in Oakbrook, Illinois, just outside Chicago. Same store, same design, different demographic, same results, 400% increase in same-store sales. Boom. And then they’re like, all right, let’s do one more. So then we did one more just outside of New York City in Stanford, Connecticut. Same results, 400% increase. Boom. And so we had figured something out. We figured out a formula of how we would engage people.
Remember, this started out by wanting to make it more theatrical. Let’s hang some screens. Let’s put some TVs in. And what we asked was, if someone saw the screen, what would you have them do? What would you want them to do next? And they couldn’t answer that in the beginning. But over lots of conversation and really understanding it through the lens, it’s like, well, what would the customer want? What would be awesome for them? What would get them to want to be in the store more? When they leave, what would get them to not only have a positive experience and feel good, but what would get them to go to their friends and say, wow, you’ve got to go to check this store out, because that’s what was happening. We were getting foot traffic because of word of mouth, because it went viral within their little communities of what was happening. Anyway, fade out, fade in, we ended up doing like 1,000 plus stores all across the country, different levels of investment. We had a flagship A store, then a slightly less expensive B, C, D, based on the market and the size and the footprint and the real estate. But it was super successful. And from that, Rob, we ended up getting called by lots of different brands.
What it really was, was how do you tell these compelling stories that engage your customers to be more present, to buy more products, to invest in the relationship in a bigger way? And we ended up doing it not just with retail, but hospitality, so theme parks, restaurants, spas, financial institutions, And then ultimately universities, we ended up working with them on raising funds for their endowments. Stanford was a big client, Duke, Yale, Harvard, tons of universities, and helping to tell their story and create an experience for their donors that would actually want them to learn more about the initiatives and not just give money to put their name on a building for the vanity of it, but actually care about the costs. And so we started to bring causes and bring those stories to life through the same formula. It’s the same formula that I’m talking about to write the copy and make that experience better for the customer. It doesn’t matter. It’s online, it’s offline, it’s events, it’s retail, it doesn’t matter. It’s the same formula.
Kira Hug: So let’s talk about shifts in the customer experience space. I know that we had chatted before we hit record on how you’ve adjusted some of your programs and teaching. So I’m curious, has anything shifted over the last few years where you’re teaching in a different way or we should be aware of different things as we think about our customer experience?
Jason Friedman: The world is evolving rapidly, as we all know. I’m sure you guys talk a lot about AI nowadays, right? It’s the great equalizer right now. And, you know, we’ve had this happen many times, uh, since we’ve all been, you know, on the planet and it’s going to continue down the road, right. There’s going to be new things down the road. What is very ironic about all of this—so 25 years ago, I remember saying to a group that I was speaking to, you know what? Customer experience is the most impactful, best way to differentiate your business in the marketplace. It will allow you to rise above your competition. For 25 years, I’ve been saying that. It’s more important today than it ever has been before. I’m still saying that. Today, I mean it even more than I meant it then, and I meant it then.
Here’s the thing. Anybody can put a bunch of prompts into chat GPT or wherever you want to use as your AI tool, and they can create a program, they can create a course, they create a sales letter, they can create a sales page and have it done in just a matter of minutes. What’s going to make them hire you as their copywriter? What’s going to make them hire me as their coach or as the course that they choose to learn? It’s going to be the results that they get. And it’s going to be about how they feel as they’re going through that journey. It’s the conflation of both of those things that really sets people apart. And I believe that’s the experience that you create. I know that the experience you create, it is your fingerprint. It is your differentiating point. It is what creates your blue ocean, if you will, in your business.
And so for all of us today, if we want to have that staying power, if we want to have that longevity, we need customers who love working with us. We need customers who actually become our sales who share their experience with others, who bring other people in. Word of mouth is amazing. It’s important. It’s one of the best possible ways to do it. And when your marketing is the stories of your successful clients, when those become your marketing and your experience is what they’re sharing, when we talk about that ideal customer script, they’re really sharing their journey, you will have an exponential growth in your business.
Every dollar that you put into the front end of the funnel becomes many more returns on the back And so what we do today is we’ve been doing the same thing for a really long time, teaching people this formula. But we’ve enhanced the formula. We’ve learned a lot over the years. And where we were kind of focusing primarily on customer experience before, we’re really focusing more on that kind of customer obsession over positive results. Right. And so what we’re helping you, like if you’ve got a business where you need retention, right, if you have a membership or a subscription or something like that, this will help you.
If you’ve got a business where you want people to buy another engagement or upgrade to another platform or another level of service, this will help you. If you’ve got a business where, you know, having a sales force is expensive, this will help you. This will turn your existing customers into your sales Right. We talk about this, this ideal result. It’s when they rave about your business. It’s when they return to buy more products from you. It’s when they renew their products and services and it’s when they recruit others to come and buy from you. Right. It’s not a referral. It’s a recruit. It’s active. It’s engaging. They’re going out and they’re, they’re selling for you because they had a transformation. And we’re all in this for the transformation. That’s why we do the work we’re doing, right? I’m not in this for the money. Money is a nice, you know, nice measurement. It’s a nice yardstick. We got to eat, we got to put food on the table. But I want to help more entrepreneurs, I want to help more small business owners, I want to help more copywriters get bigger, better results. And so as I’m doing it, I have to get those results. So for me, they have to win. Otherwise, they’re not going to buy more stuff from me, they’re not going to tell more people about me.
And so we help people understand how to shift the funnel, like flip the funnel and put the focus on the inside of the business. All the gurus, all the marketing teachers, everybody out there is teaching us how to get more leads, how to optimize for conversions. And that’s important. It’s definitely important. But let’s say that you’ve optimized everything and then people come in and they don’t like the experience. They ask for a refund, they exercise the guarantees and the warranties and all of those things. When you really look at the cost of acquisition, when you start factoring all those defectors and all of those refunders and all those things in, it’s not such a rosy, pretty picture. And all of our budget is going to strangers. How much of our budget and our time and our focus goes to the people who said yes. And when we do focus our time and our energy on the people who said yes, and we flip that funnel, we really focus on the inside, then once you’ve optimized and done all that great work, now I’ve got a consistent machine that’s bringing people through getting results, and they’re going to keep filling the funnel.
So my cost of acquisition goes way, way, way, way down. And my cost of delight, like I can put more of my energy here, because I’m saving so much money here. It’s unbelievable. Like if you look at just the online business marketplace, right, people that are selling courses, Only 3 to 15% of buyers actually get results from the programs. And there’s a huge percentage of buyers that never even crack the seal. They never even start the program or get going.
So if we started focusing on how we optimize that side of our business instead of just optimizing people that give us a few dollars up front, every dollar that comes in up front will be worth many, many more dollars. And so what we’re trying to do really is create that awareness. And in our program, you know, we call it the kinetic customer formula. I want customers who are in momentum, right? And so, you know, potential energy, energy with potential, not in motion, kinetic energy, energy that’s in motion, that’s taking action. And so we teach people this kind of way to put this operating system into their business that delivers these results consistently.
Kira Hug: I’m going to ask a quick follow up before, I don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but can you speak to just shifts in the online marketing space? We know it’s a tougher market now. Customers are more skeptical because you’ve shared those stats because so many of them don’t get the results that they’ve paid for in the past. It’s just crowded now. It’s shifted. So could you just speak to what you’ve observed in that shift? it relates to what you’re doing and makes it an obvious solution. You have to improve your customer experience. Otherwise, you’re not going to last today. It’s just the market’s not there anymore.
Jason Friedman: 100% like and beyond the experience, right? You have to get them results. People need to get the results. And so that’s why I keep saying it’s more important today than it ever has been before. And it’s true. So like, here’s what I’ve observed, right? Take some of the big marketing gurus out there, right? I’m not going to name drop anybody. I’m good friends with a lot of them. And I think they’re awesome. But when you look at how their business has shifted, the way they used to sell their products was through affiliate relationships. So they’d have other marketers that have an email list and they would promote for them. And the big guys would promote the big guys.
Well, the big guys are not promoting the big guys as much because they don’t have room on their calendar. And so what you see as a shift is the people that are winning affiliate contests and leaderboards and are getting the biggest results are the customers of those gurus that are teaching it who actually use their system and got the results. Now think about that. That’s what I’m teaching you how to do, really. How do you turn customers into your superhero? So your customers are actually getting those amazing results, and then they want to tell other people. And then you’re putting them in a system where you can reward and recognize them for even doing that further, right? And so what you’re seeing as a shift is the big online space, like the affiliate, you know, universe, joint venture universe, and that the ones that are having the biggest success with that are the ones whose customers got results from using the program, and then they’re sharing it with their audiences. And they’re doing it, again, in that recruit, not in a refer.
It’s not passive. They actively get behind promotions because it has changed their life. They feel an obligation or a duty because they’re not just helping someone make more money. They’re sharing their journey of how they actually had a transformation and how it affected their life. And that’s what we’re talking about with the ideal customer script in a nutshell, right? And I’ve been working with some of these gurus as well to help them do this, right? Because that’s the way, right? When your customers get the results and they wanna tell other people, that’s what’s gonna help you win.
And so in the online marketplace, with all the crowdedness, with all the noise, the way that you’re, like, if you’re looking for someone to clean your house, you go on Facebook, you know, local Facebook group, right? And say, hey, does anyone have a great person? You don’t know, you’re taking a referral from a friend, right? Like that’s how we do things. Like we look for the social proof. Now, if the social proof and those testimonials and those case studies and whatever become really expository about their journey and how they were going across that, you start to relate to those even more and you start to buy into them and you can see yourself actually having those success stories, right? Like hearing that someone lost 20 pounds, you’re not seeing your journey in that. You’re like, okay, great. I know a lot of people lost 20 pounds. I’ve tried this a thousand times. But when you hear about the struggles they had, and you’re like, oh my gosh, that’s my story. Wait, they did it? I can do this. Oh my gosh. This is different. The way this person’s teeth, that would work for me. I understand that. Wow. Like a light bulb, breakthrough, right? That’s what’s helping people take action and move forward. It’s that they’re seeing themselves, and they can understand and relate to it in a different way.
And so as we start to understand what those results really are, how to better quantify or qualify the results. And it’s not just about the 20 pounds. It’s about the way they feel in their skin. It’s about how they show up. It’s about how their life’s going to change. And you tell that story, but you tell it with the hero’s journey that they went through, if you will, the struggles and the epiphanies and the moments. People, people fall in love with that and they connect with it. And that’s how we, that’s what we want. We want to help people, you know, so as an entrepreneur, as a, as a small business owner, my goal is to help more people. And the reason that we do what we do, it’s like, I believe that entrepreneurs like us, all of us here and those of us listening, we got into this to help other people and make some money along the way. And I’m going to change the world by helping other people who are also going to change the world. We can’t do it alone, right? We have to do it through other people.
And so I just, I know that this is the way to do it. And I’m passionate about it because, you know, it’s funny when I was, 17 years old, my best friend, Drew, who’s my business partner. We’ve been best friends since we’re about five, six years old. We joke about it like, you know, it’s the longest marriage that either of us has been able to sustain because we weren’t so successful in our actual marriages. But we were driving down the road in my 1985 Pontiac Trans Am. We called it Thunder Chicken. That’s a story for another time. But we had just gone to do something for his dad. He’d given us something to take to the bank and deposit a check. And they just wouldn’t let us deposit this check. and they made it so hard. And we were trying to give them money that would make them more money. And it was like roadblock, friction, friction, obstacle. No, no, no, no. And we just sat there and we’re like, why does this happen? Like, why do businesses make it so hard to do business with us? This is crazy. We had that epiphany then, and we had come up with this dream of a business called Making It Better. Like someday we were going to have a business called Making It Better. And actually, as we look at all the different businesses we’ve had and the different markets and the different things we’ve done, most of them have been really successful. We’ve had a couple of flops. But the theme, the through line of every single one of those businesses is that. It’s how do we make it better for our customers? How do we make it better for ourselves, for our families, for our employees? And I think when you look at things through that lens and you remove the friction, you reduce the obstacles to people having success, amazing things come out of that.
And so I think today in this market, as you’re looking at your business, ask yourself that tough question. Am I making it hard for my customers to have success with me? And how do you find those friction points, those moments that are a little harder that I can either reduce them or remove them? And you’ll start seeing massive, massive improvements pretty much immediately.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve got a whole list of ways that I make it hard for people to do business with.
Jason Friedman: Don’t do it and don’t be so rough. Yeah, don’t be so rough. Just start just one at a time. Just start picking them off.
Rob Marsh: It’s amazing what’ll happen. We’ve got, yeah, we’ve got work to do. Okay. We’re going to run out of time, but I really would love to just quickly step through the kinetic customer formula, if you’re willing to share some of those steps that we can think through this on our own. And then obviously you’ve got some resources that we can share if people want to find out more, but tell us a little bit more about the formula.
Jason Friedman: Absolutely. I’m going to give you the quick 10 cent version, right? So there’s four key things that four factors. There’s attitudes, which are how people are thinking and expecting about your business. There’s behaviors, the things that they’re doing to get results. There’s friction, the things that are slowing them down or stopping them from achieving those goals, those goals with those results. And there’s momentum, how do we actually give them those extra boosts. And the combination of those four things are what we help people put into a very specific process to clean that up.
So if you’re going to try and implement what we’re teaching and kind of think about it, literally start at the end, write that ideal customer script. What do you want that person to say and how would they share their journey and use your best copywriting skills? Make it juicy, paint pictures with the words that people are seeing that journey through the words that you write in that script. That’s the first thing.
Then we’re gonna reverse engineer that. So we’re gonna look at like in order for them to get those results that say that script, what behaviors do they need to do? So if you’re designing it from scratch, you do that. If you’re not, the first thing you do is you look at your existing journey and you write out everything they do at every step along the way. When you do this exercise, critically important, you’re doing it from the vantage point of the customer, right? So for example, it’s not send them an email, it’s receive an email, right? See the nuance there. So it’s through the lens of the customer. map out everything they do from beginning to end, and then go deep on each one of those doings, right? So you’re asking, what are they thinking and expecting when they do that? Who are they interacting with when they do that? What are they using when they do that? And how are they feeling, most important?
What you’ll start to see is you’ll start to see this rollercoaster ride of emotions that they go on. And so after you’ve done that, what I want you to do is go through and find the friction. Like, where is it hard? Where do they get stuck? And you’ll be able to easily identify that when you look at the tension that’s created between feelings and thinking and expecting, right? And I’m thinking, expecting one thing, but it’s not actually happening. Okay, there’s probably an expectation mismatch there, right? And so what we might have to do is go a couple steps back and set a different expectation, right? Or if they’re feeling unsure, they might need a momentum boost, or we’ll put another step in there, maybe that’ll help them feel more confident and understand what’s going to happen. Like we were saying about the difference between step three and step four of copywriting, if there’s a long lag, I’ve got to give some communication steps in there maybe.
So you might add a few steps. That make sense? So you’re going to start to look at all those, map those out, go deep on each one. What are they doing? What are they thinking, expecting? What are they using? Who are they interacting with? And how are they feeling? And then once you’ve done that, like I said, find the friction points. And look at the ones that are going to remove the biggest obstacles. Take out the biggest obstacles first and go deep. There’s a lot of nuance to this. There’s a lot more steps. I know we don’t have a whole lot of time, but this will get you started and get you going in the right way. And pay special attention to the transitions. So look at your onboarding, that first transition. Like really make sure that you make it easy for people to get started. And make sure that as it gets harder, either the relationships get stronger so that it’s worth the fight, or that their skills are getting stronger, so that they’re able to do the harder work, whichever it happens to be for your business, right? If it’s always so easy, we’ll lose interest. Also, if it gets too hard, we’ll lose interest. It has to be in this, we call this the flow channel, where the degree of difficulty and the degree of effort and skill are increasing together in lockstep.
Rob Marsh: And I appreciate, too, what you said when we were just starting out talking, Jason, about looking at this journey, not just from the purchase, but from the very first engagement, because there’s a ton of things that happen between that first engagement and a purchase where we introduce friction or we’re not even thinking about a customer experience. So thinking through this process from day one, day zero, I’m about to meet you to result, I think could be really helpful.
Jason Friedman: I love that, Rob. And I would, I would even say, go back to day negative 180, like go backwards. And like, when someone’s having a problem, like, because if you, again, if you get into character, if you do what I say, like you kind of Matthew McConaughey here, right? If you get into that spot, you have to know what brought them to that day. right, where they started to learn and they started to go back further. The insights are tremendous. And you might actually build a customer for life just in your sales process at that point, because you can really connect with them on a much deeper level, and authentically deliver what they need, while selling them what they want in a way that’s so profound, that they really they just the reciprocity is just kind of baked in from the get go. So super powerful, really good point.
Kira Hug: There’s so many takeaways from this conversation. Just thinking about my onboarding, which I’ve been so proud of and thinking of new ways to evolve. It’s just a good reminder that there’s always more to learn and to improve. And even the testimonials you’re talking about. As copywriters, we can rewrite testimonials for clients, of course, get approvals, but we can create them as transformations rather than just these are the results. So I think that’s another power move for copywriters with their clients or for their own products. And so many other takeaways for anyone who wants more information from you, Jason, or wants to jump into a program or course. Where should they go to learn more?
Jason Friedman: Awesome. Thanks. You can definitely check us out at CXformula dot com. If you’d like to get a little bit more information about us, but I have a little present for your people. I’m going to use a copy technique. I’m not going to tell you what it is. I’m going to tease you.
If you go to gift.cxformula.com/copyclub, there’s a PDF there. It will take you less than 10 minutes to go through. But it’s got a really killer strategy that is going to actually have you ask some different questions about your business and it will change the way you think in a very positive way. So I encourage you to read it. And then it will also give you some ways to like immediately, actionably implement this strategy in your business.
I ask two favors. Favor one, if you download it, actually look at it. Like, I don’t want this to be shelfware that just sits on your computer hard drive and gets stale someday. So just take a look at it.
Rob Marsh: You know us so well, Jason.
Kira Hug: Yeah. I think you’ve been around for a while.
Rob Marsh: There’s that friction again, right there.
Jason Friedman: Not my first rodeo. So fight through the pain, it will be worth it. I promise you when you get to the other side, you’d be like, that was a really interesting question. I love this. And number two, I’m going to send you an email that gives you this thing. When you put in your information, if you use it or you like it, or you don’t like it, tell me what you think. I actually am very curious about how people are using this so that I can help more people. So that’s it. I know it’s going to be helpful. I know it’s pretty cool. Um, and, uh, I really would love to see how you’re using it.
Rob Marsh: I’m downloading it right now. I’m already intrigued by the title. Yeah. So I’m on it.
Jason Friedman: So did I do good in the copy?
Rob Marsh: Pretty good. Yeah. I might, I might send you a way or two to improve. No. It looks good. I’m just teasing.
This has been eye-opening, like the last time we talked. I just remember walking away thinking, holy crap, I’ve got so much work to do here.
Jason Friedman: Don’t beat yourself up, just start fixing, because I think that’s the approach.
Rob Marsh: And I just really appreciate the level of thought that you bring to the customer journey. And it’s something that way too many of us as service providers who just like to send our customers Google Docs, We don’t really think about that experience. And so there’s just a ton here that’s really valuable. Jason Friedman: Thank you for that. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it.
Kira Hug: Thanks, Jason.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Jason Friedman. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation. I don’t know if this is going to extend a lot of what Jason was talking about, but just some thoughts that occurred to me.
At one point, Jason mentioned the idea that experience is not something that you do. It’s something the customer has. This is a really big idea in my opinion. A lot of copywriters who have worked in agency environments have the experience of working with clients on a level that’s really different from what most freelancers do. In the agency, you invite clients into the office oftentimes or you’ll go to their office to present oftentimes. There’s a lot of drama built into it. They serve lunch or drinks. If you’ve watched Mad Men, you’ve seen this yourself. They’ll show a video or they show all of the work and it’s all mounted on black boards and it’s very professional and feels very high touch, white glove kind of thing. But a lot of us as freelancers, we don’t ever even think about what that level of experience means to our clients. Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we need to be presenting over lunch or that everything needs to be fancy, but there’s something that happens in that client experience where they are being treated differently. They are sort of being wined and dined just a little bit that is worth emulating in the businesses that we have all built. So again, not saying you need to take your clients out to lunch in order to present, but maybe there’s something you can do that’s just a little bit different, that creates a slightly different experience. Maybe instead of presenting on plain Google Docs, you are presenting your work on branded documents of some kind, and you’re showing up obviously on video or in some other ways to present it. So you’re not just throwing a Google Doc over the fence and letting the client sort of figure it out on their own. If that’s not what you’re doing, there may be other things that we can do during the process to make that experience of working with us different, higher end, or just feel really good. It’s definitely something worth considering and thinking about as you consider how you work with your clients.
Again, we start with that ideal customer testimonial, which is based on the transformation, not just the work that you do, but the results that you get and asking, where can you find these wins in the process? Is it during the initial interviews and on the sales call? Is it before that? Is it as you’re working with that call and going through your scorecard or your diagnostic process? Is it something that you’re doing with the research and presenting the research? Is it as you’re outlining and writing the drafts? Think about different ways that you can increase your customers’ experience or positive experiences throughout that process.
Lastly, I just want to repeat that formula that we talked about with Jason because I think each of these four elements is really important when we talk about this customer experience. Number one, attitudes, the beliefs that they have, behaviors, what they do to get the results is number two. Friction, what’s slowing them down and causing them problems or making things hard for both you and for them.
Finally, momentum, what keeps them going? What are the things that you can do to keep them excited about working with you? Of course, you’re doing all of this from the customer’s vantage point, not from ours. Oftentimes, when we think about customer experience, we look at it from what we’re doing and we are creating that experience. Going back to what Jason said earlier, it’s not something you do, it’s not something you create, it’s something the customer has and engineering that from their standpoint.
Thanks to Jason Friedman for joining us to chat about client experiences and how to improve them. Make sure that you take advantage of his free giveaway at gift.cxformula.com/copyclub. I believe that’s all one word. I downloaded it. You should too. And when it arrives in your inbox, don’t let it gather dust.
Some people just get stuff done while others get to the end of the day, look back, and wonder what they did all day. On the 386th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob’s talk with brand builder, prolific content creator, and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda revealed her secrets for getting stuff done, creating fly wheels (instead of funnels) to keep moving readers to other parts of her business, and adding a thousand subscribers to her newsletter every month. She calls it realistic productivity—the kind you can do when you’re running your own business and have three kids—and you’ll want to hear how she does it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
Life’s a Game (Amanda’s course) Hypefury Taplio The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Rob Marsh: Some people seem to have an other worldly ability to get stuff done. While the rest of us struggle through our daily to-do lists and often fail to check off more than one or two items, they post great, well-thought out content several times a day to social media, they create new products, regular emails, launch and promote courses, and maybe even crank out a few pages for the book they’re working on.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I sat down with brand builder, creator and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda is one of those people who just gets stuff done. She’s running three different content businesses, writing a book, taking on work as a part-time CMO and is launching a course in a couple of days. So how does she get it all done? We talked about the systems she uses to produce her weekly newsletters and daily social media content so that it all gets written in one day a month, plus an hour or two a week to schedule posts. And her system has helped her grow her newsletter by about 1000 new subscribers every month. If you produce content to support or grow your own business, you’re definitely going to want to hear what she has to say.
But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few days.
Now, let’s jump to my discussion with Amanda.
Amanda, let’s get started with your story. You’ve done so many things, vice president marketing, CMO, you’re building three businesses. How did you get here? Amanda Goetz: Oh, gosh. So where do I start? I grew up on a farm in Central Illinois. I’m a first generation college grad. And for me, my start was I graduated early from college because my accounting T.A. offered me a job at Ernst and Young. And I was still first semester of my senior year. And I was like, OK, I think I can graduate early if I take 18 hours. So I added a course. I graduated early. But my senior year of college, I took 18 hours of classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I got on a bus every Wednesday night. I went from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, up to Chicago. I worked at Ernst & Young in the Sears Tower in Chicago, Thursdays and Fridays. I studied all day Saturday, went back to my roommates on Sunday and did it all again.
Rob Marsh: Wow, that’s nuts.
Amanda Goetz: I definitely have found that just the way that I’m wired and I am open to pushing myself and seeing what I’m capable of. But through those years I also learned what burnout looks like and where my limits are. I worked at Ernst & Young for a few years. That took me from Chicago to New York, where I finally realized I needed to be more consumer-facing. I didn’t like the financial services. I went to go work for a celebrity wedding planner, which is kind of a whole funny chapter, but I learned so much about what it meant to have a personal brand.
He had a reality TV show that we worked on. He had books, he had licensing deals. So that was kind of my first real mini CMO role. But also seeing the value of a personal brand up close and personal. So I did that for a few years. That also allowed me to travel the world, which was really cool because my parents have never been on an airplane. So It’s a hilarious upbringing. So I was like, I’m headed to Australia to go plan a Major League Baseball player’s 30th birthday. I’ll be back in two weeks. And it was just funny and a really cool chapter of my life.
From there, I launched a tech startup with a co-founder that I met through some nonprofit work. Did that. That was kind of like my MBA. I was managing engineers. I was learning how to build a tech product. I was understanding what it meant to like, what does VC capital mean? And I did an accelerator program in New York City, where it really taught us, it’s called Startup Leadership Program, SLP. It’s a global program. And you really learn what it means to be like a founder. And from there, did that for a few years. And that got me to The Knot, where I led marketing. And I was kind of the first consumer marketing hire, because it was an editorial company. For anybody that knows The Knot, it’s a magazine. And we made it a two-sided marketplace. I was there for five and a half years, then the pandemic hit.
I decided to launch another startup, which was a consumer facing startup, a CPG wellness company. We had actual physical goods. We had supplements, and sold that two years ago to kind of take a break and focus on stability and family and I took a VP of marketing job to just kind of like reset. I call it my spin cycle. Like everything felt really heavy. I needed to get all the water out. And then from there decided I wanted to write a book and kind of share all of this stuff that I had learned throughout my journey. I’m a single mom. I have three kids. I got divorced a couple of years before the pandemic. And now writing a book. I launched kind of this creator community, helping people really understand what it looks like to build an intentional personal brand with the goal of making money.
Rob Marsh: Nice. There’s a, there’s a lot of here and so much we can ask about before we go any farther, what you’re even doing today. I want to go back to the wedding planner days. What is the wildest, craziest experience that you had doing that job?
Amanda Goetz: Oh my gosh, that could be its own podcast. I have so many stories that I’m sure NDAs were probably signed at some point.
Rob Marsh: We won’t name names.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it was a lot of NFL, NBA, NASCAR, like I’ve touched kind of all of them. I had one family who no wedding venue was good enough. So they said, build us one. And so I had to move to a town and build a wedding venue that they would later turn into a commercial wedding venue that they would make money off of. But the mom was such a savvy businesswoman. She was like, no, if I’m going to spend this much money, it’s going to be an investment that I will get a return on. And so I built a wedding venue.
Rob Marsh: Credit the mom, that’s a brilliant idea when you think of all the money that gets wasted on weddings. But yeah, that’s awesome. Okay, so you’ve got all of these experiences adding up to what you’re doing today. And if I’m not mistaken, you’re building three different businesses at the moment. Tell us a little bit about those.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I have kind of my main pillar, which is Life’s a Game. It’s all about success without burnout. So how do you play the game of life and manage your time and energy efficiently? So that is a newsletter. I don’t think of funnels anymore, I think in flywheels, because they should all feed each other. So I have a newsletter. I talk on social media about personal and professional growth. Then that feeds to my newsletter. If somebody wants to go further, I have a course that’s coming out in two days that takes you to that next level where it’s self-guided. It’s seven modules sharing everything I’ve learned about productivity, but realistic productivity.
I’ve got three kids. A lot of productivity gurus out there are like a single dude that doesn’t have kids that’s like, here’s how to wake up at 5 a.m. and do these things. You’re like, I got a kid. Realistic productivity. and goal setting. So if somebody likes that and they want to go deeper, they can join my community. I do group coaching. We have over 100 people that meet biweekly, and we are in a Slack community, and some of those I even do one-on-one coaching with. So that’s kind of one pillar.
Then I’ve got Break an Egg, which I started with Jack Appleby—a lot of people are not like the people listening to this podcast, right? They don’t know how to write on social media. And so we started a very, very inexpensive, it’s $5 a month, email list where subscribers get daily prompts to show up on LinkedIn. So it’s like, today, talk about a time in your career where you learned X, Y, and Z. And so they get that prompt. And now they know, OK, that’s what I’m going to share on social media today. And then they have a community. So that’s another business.
And then I’ve got the book, which is kind of its own business, because it’s not necessarily related to the other two. And with the book, I I do speaking engagements and I go around. So that’s kind of its own pillar.
And then I would say, like, I kind of have a fourth one, which is I’m still a fractional CMO and I still take on CMO work and helping people think about their branding. So, yeah, I kind of keep my hands in all those cookie jars.
Rob Marsh: Listening to you talk about it, it’s clear why Life’s a Game is focused on time management, energy management—all of that, because, as you mentioned, you’ve got a family, you’ve got a personal life, and managing literally four or five different businesses. That’s a lot.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like a lot because of the way I approach everything. But I recognize that when I say this, it sounds crazy.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, it sounds a little nuts. I do want to come back to those businesses. But if somebody is thinking, okay, I’m a writer, or I would love to start a business like what you have started, maybe something like Break an Egg, or even Life’s a Game where you’re talking about some of your experiences and how to do something, right? You’ve built a lot of this on social media and with newsletters. And this is something that as I’ve watched you build your businesses over the last year or so, I’m fascinated by how you’ve done it, how you show up constantly, especially at Twitter and LinkedIn. Will you just talk about your strategy there and what you’re doing and how you’ve grown as you’ve been posting there consistently?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I’ll get a little tactical here because I think it’s helpful. People like to talk in “macro” and it’s like, well, that sounds great. But like, what do you actually do? Let’s do that.
Rob Marsh: Tactics is great.
Amanda Goetz: OK, so at the start, I’m really thinking about what are my content pillars? So we’re all writers here. You’re thinking about what are the pillars that I’m talking about? And when you have those pillars created, Then you can figure out, OK, there’s all these different styles of writing a post. So say I’m going to talk about time management. Well, you can then list out.
You could say how to do X by doing Y. That’s one type of post. I have a list of 10 types of posts. It’s like the contrarian take. Here’s the old way of doing something versus the new way of doing something. Anytime I write a post, I’m thinking about what are the eight ways that I can write this post. I call one a fortune cookie post. What’s the two-liner? summary of this thing. One’s a version of like story time. If I’m going to tell a story about how I burnt out, I’ll tell that story. But then I’m going to take that longer story and turn it into six or seven shorter things. Right.
And to your point, the newsletter is usually the starting point. I write a long newsletter and then I chop that into eight or 10 different tweets. And I do the same thing, Twitter and LinkedIn. Sometimes I change it up one day, but you will see the same content on both. I don’t over-engineer that. And then I program that. On Sundays, I sit down for about an hour and a half in the morning before the kids are up, and I schedule that stuff out. And the cool thing is when you have one newsletter and you’re writing about, like, say that newsletter today was like the science of overwhelm—and what do I do when I feel overwhelmed about something? OK, I’m going to then chop that into eight tweets. But I’m not going to do that all in one week, because that would feel very redundant. So I’m going to space that out over the course of eight weeks. When you do that every week, all of a sudden, in a few weeks, you’ve got the full week already scheduled. And it’s kind of this wonderful compounding effect. And so I do sit down on Sundays. And that allows me on the day to day to not get time sucked into social media.
I have two chunks of my day from eight to nine after I drop off the kids and I usually have a coffee and I’m relaxing and kind of transitioning back into work mode where I will engage with people. and then around noon. And those are usually the two times that my two more meatier posts go live. So I’m there to respond to people when they’re engaging with it. So it’s all very, very formulaic.
I think people kind of feel deflated when they hear that because they’re like, oh, I thought everybody’s actually there thinking of this stuff. It’s like, no, the people who are there to drive a funnel or a flywheel, they’re making money. They have got a system in place where they are maximizing the time that they’re showing up. I don’t want to sit down at 8 a.m. and be like, well, what should I post today? Because that’s wasted energy.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, because I think the perception is, like you said, we see the tweets showing up four or five times a day, or on LinkedIn once or twice a day. We see the newsletter coming into our inboxes, and it feels like you’re ever-present. And which is intentional. And that’s good. That’s what you want people to think. But the fact that you’re letting the system run it, that’s like one of those behind-the-scene things that if we’re going to be serious about building that kind of a business—and I know a lot of people listening are—that’s the kind of thing that’s really, really helpful.
Amanda Goetz: Exactly. You have to understand that this is why Life’s a Game is called Life’s a Game. Everyone that’s out there being successful has learned how to play the game. And it feels icky. It feels inauthentic. But the fact of the matter is, if you sit down every day to try to create a post, you’re going to overthink it. You’re going to sit there for longer. And that’s wasted time and energy.
It’s funny, because even with the newsletter, when I first started it, It was June of last year. Each newsletter would take me about eight hours. So I would break it up. On Saturdays, I’d ideate. Sundays, I’d draft. Mondays, I would edit. Tuesdays, I’d add pictures. Wednesdays, I’d program and it would go live on Thursdays. After about five, six months of doing that, I started to find my rhythm. I understood the formula. Again, everything comes down to… once you have that formula of what works, you’re like, okay, cool. I’ve got this.
Now I write all four newsletters one day a month. I block out the day, I write four, now that’s done. Now when you think about, okay, I have a newsletter and I’m showing up on social every day, that’s actually only one day a week and one day a month. Now I’ve got all this other time to do those other businesses that I’m working.
Rob Marsh: I love that. Let’s talk a little bit about the growth that you’ve seen as you’ve done this. Everybody starts at zero. We all look at the businesses that have thousands and thousands of followers, and I know you’re not yet at the quarter of a million or the millions, but you have had an amazing growth curve over the last few months.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. On social, it’s been interesting. I talk a lot about creator seasons. I was in creator winter for quite a while. And I want to just tell people that not everyone just looks like an overnight success. I was tweeting and posting for a very long time into the void. And eventually, you start to see these little upticks, and then that starts to build and compound. But with the newsletter, it’s been pretty steady of just slow, but up into the right growth. I started, obviously, with zero. I pre-launched it. I think I launched on the day when it went live. I had about 1,000 subscribers. I think now I just crossed 27,000. And so it’s like 1,000 a week. It’s slow and steady.
Rob Marsh: That’s great. And you’ve seen sort of the same thing with social media. Is that right? Or is that different?
Amanda Goetz: Social media is a different game. Like it’s truly you once you learn the rules of the game. So the number one thing that I teach people in my group coaching is about engagement circles. And this is the thing that like the successful people, they will not talk about, but like I am an open book and I’m like, I want everyone to know the rules of the game. And look, just because what I’m about to say sounds simple does not mean it’s easy. And people confuse those two things.
Showing up every day and engaging on social media is not easy, but it’s simple. So what is an engagement circle? It is a group of people at a similar level—it’s like if you only have a thousand followers, find five other people that are around 2000 followers and say, hey, I’m going to show up every day at 8 a.m. and post. When do you show up every day? And I’m going to comment on your stuff. You’re going to comment on my stuff. And we’re going to show up for each other every day. I am on group texts with different creators. I’m in DM groups with different creators. I do it with my Office Hours community. We do it with Break an Egg community. Drop your post. Let other people know it’s there. You can’t expect the algorithm to do all the work. You have to show up. And the way that LinkedIn algorithm works is when you post, that first few minutes is when the algorithm is saying, is this a valuable post? If within the first few minutes of that post going live, say in the first 30 minutes, a lot of people start engaging with it and you’re commenting back, the algorithm’s like, oh, this creator’s there. That’s good. They want that. They want dialogue. And other people are commenting on this. This must mean that this is a valuable post. And so you just learn that trick, and it’s like, OK, hey, guys, I post every day at 8:15 AM. You show up at the same time, and we’re going to be there for each other.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, the timing thing. This is one of those lessons that I’ve learned, because I tend to post just kind of whenever it’s like, oh, I’ve got to get something up today. So sometimes it’s in the morning. Sometimes it’s in the afternoon. I’ve posted in the evening. And I have posted things that I thought were really good engagement stuff in the evening. and it’s flat because people aren’t there and it’s not until the morning that they start engaging and it’s a much slower build. So that timing is really important. Can I also ask, and I know it’s not about the tools, it’s never about the tools, but what are the tools that you’re using to post and make sure the stuff is showing up?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I use Hypefury for Twitter. The only thing about Hypefury that’s a little frustrating is you can’t schedule long form posts. So on Sundays, I literally will create a little postcard and I’ll make like a it’s like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And if I have a long form post that is in drafts on Twitter, I’ll have like a little like bird or like blue checkmark or something that’s like reminds me that that one isn’t going to publish automatically. I’ve got to go in and click send. But otherwise, anything else that’s a thread or a shorter post, that’s all through Hypefury.
Then everything on LinkedIn is Taplio. And I’m actually I’m doing a webinar March 21st for Taplio, where I’m showing how I create a lot of content in a short amount of time. They have very cool AI tools that generate hooks for you. So you can put in your tweet or your post, the content, and it will generate a bunch of hooks for you. And that’s what I was talking about earlier, which is like, you should have one post served seven ways.
Rob Marsh: I love that. So as you were starting up these businesses, you left your previous work, was it a cold break or did you sort of start that slow build while you were still at Theknot thinking, okay, I know what I’m going to be doing. I need to build some runway for myself.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So this creator business is different than House of Wise, which was a VC backed company. That one was different because it was middle of COVID. I started working on it kind of nights and weekends because I wanted to do the development and understand who my customer was going to be and who was going to make the product and where was I going to source the ingredients from. That was a slow build. Basically, I raised $400,000 pre-seed while I had a full-time job at The Knot. My boss knew about it. I was transparent about it. I said, I’m doing it nights and weekends, but I’m going to start talking about what I’m doing. Okay, that was fine.
When it started to become not okay was when I felt my energy shift and that the House of Wise needed more of me. And so that was when I was like, I got to figure this out. So lucky enough, because of Twitter and LinkedIn, I saw somebody posting about like, they needed a marketer. And I was like, Hey, I think if you want a fractional CMO, I could probably do 20 hours a week with you so I could give half of my time to House of Wise. And that worked out perfectly.
So I, left my full-time job, took on a fractional CMO role, helped build that brand while I was still building my company. And it wasn’t until I raised the $2 million seed and we were driving real revenue that I was like, okay, I can now let everything else go and do this.
Now, fast forward to my creator, this new era of my life. I was in a position, and honestly, it was a forcing function situation. I was in a position where I was not happy. I did not love the setup, the culture. And sometimes it takes a bad situation for you to be like, I’ve got to leave and I have nothing. And I remember one particularly hard day, I shut my computer and I looked at my partner and I was like, I think I need to quit. And I’m like, this is really not you know, from an energy standpoint and an alignment standpoint, I’m not there. So we talked through it and he was like, do you know what you want to do? And I was like, no, but I think I’ll figure it out. And so sometimes the scariest things are like removing your safety net. But when I tell you I have never worked harder or with more intention than I did the three months following where I was like, I’ve got to figure out how I’m making money. And so those next three months of me figuring out how to monetize my audience was like real.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, OK. Yeah, I mean, this is something I think that a lot of us experienced as copywriters. It’s like, hey, we leave the in-house job. Or sometimes it’s not voluntary. There’s a layoff that happens. An agency loses a client or whatever. And not having the safety net forces you to get serious. very fast.
I’ve also been in situations, in fact, I was in a startup with four partners, we all had other jobs. And so we were kind of doing it on the side. And we could never get the traction because we were all safe doing—it was like we could play.
Amanda Goetz: That was my first startup, same thing.
Rob Marsh: We could play and build stuff. And it’s like, well, yeah, we’ll get a client. But we don’t need it because every one of us had that runway. Or actually, it was more than runway. We had a total safety net. Yeah. And so it never got traction, unfortunately, because I still think it’s a great idea. But we were just the wrong team to build it. So as you do all of this stuff, you mentioned earlier, at one point, you burned out doing some of the other stuff. I mean, listening to you, I said three jobs. You really have five jobs, as we were talking about earlier. What are you doing to avoid burnout this time?
Amanda Goetz: I’m very intentional about what my boundaries are. Like I said, I have turned down many clients. I’ve turned down many meetings. I’ve turned down many podcasts. I am very, very intentional about what I’m saying yes to. The shift is like, look, in your 20s and early 30s, like I’m in my late 30s now, it’s like, you have to say yes to opportunities because you never know. You have to increase that luck surface area. And I would not be in the position I am today had I not put myself in scenarios and situations and went to events and put myself at the tables of the people that kind of are now just like in my life.
But now I’m very intentional about the level of effort something takes and the level of impact it has towards my goal. And right now I’m very clear on my goals. And this is what I teach in the course, which is everything starts with, what do you see for your life in this current season? What do you want? Are you pushing in your career? And that’s OK if you are. But for how long are you willing to allow that to go? OK, for the next one to two years, you’re pushing in your career. Great. Well, then you need to stop and take inventory and say, are you still good with that a year in? And do you need to shift? Does somebody need to go on the front burner or back burner?
Start with your goal and then align your actions towards that goal. And I talk a lot about where does weak boundaries come from, like meaning you’re saying yes to people’s meetings or saying yes to things that aren’t in alignment? Well, it comes from people-pleasing, right? And where does people-pleasing come from? A need for validation and affirmation and a low self-worth. And so really, the shortest answer to your question is that I’ve done a lot of the inner work stuff to fix those things that actually lead to those weak boundaries. Because once I know my worth and that I deserve to achieve the goals that I’ve set, now I’m in a whole different headspace to say, well, no, my goal is just as important as your goal. And I’m going to work towards mine just as much as I’m going to work towards yours. And that is the shift that I think needed to happen for me.
Rob Marsh: You mentioned the tension between effort and impact. Will you talk a little bit more about that? Maybe even give us a specific example of how that shows up.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. Look, I could put on my CMO hat right now and talk about like, oh, someone wants us to do a campaign with this landing page and, you know, all this copy and all this stuff. Like, it sounds really cool. OK, well, my first question is, let’s look at the level of effort and the level of impact I have. 100,000 people follow me on Twitter, and if I can get 10% of them to drive to this landing page, what’s the typical conversion of a landing page? Okay, now I get them to a site. What’s the typical conversion from that site? Okay, boil that down, back of the napkin math, I might have 50 people that purchase this thing. Is that the good use of my time? Or should I focus on this thing where I can drive them directly to the newsletter and the newsletter I know has a different funnel? So I think about everything in that way. Like, does this meeting that somebody wants me to take, what is the level of effort and what’s the level of impact towards my goals? And if it’s not high, like every, I love doing this every Friday afternoon, is my email day. That’s when I actually go through all of my emails, because I don’t email such a time suck.
I do not let email control me. I keep it closed most of the day. Friday afternoons, when I look at my calendar for the next week and I say, okay, I said yes to all these things. What am I going to remove? What is truly not in alignment with what my goal is for next week? My goal is to write three chapters next week. Do I have enough space to actually do that? And if I don’t, guess what? Other people can wait because it’s my time. And those are the things I think about.
Rob Marsh: Awesome. Okay, we’ve talked about your book a couple of times. And I, before we started recording, I told you, I have struggled to get out my, you know, book idea, you know, it’s on 30 different documents on my hard drive or whatever. Let’s talk about the process of writing a book. And specifically, what are you writing about? Who’s it for that kind of thing?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So process wise, I approach it like everything that I approach. It’s, it’s, It’s like, oh, I want to write a book. That is a big, scary, meaty goal, right? What’s less intimidating? Writing 500 words. Like, that’s just, I can write 500 words in a sitting and not even think twice about that. So every day, like you can see, Tuesday, this is my Tuesday, 1,000 words, okay? That’s manageable. And so I just, I have taken this big, hairy thing and just broken it up. I call it KitKat strategy. I just take big things and I break them up into a million pieces and I do one a day. With the book, I mean, my partner tells this story about the first time we ever met, I said, I really want to write a book before I’m 40. That was like a thing. I said it, I was probably trying to sound really cool. I don’t know. I had no idea what I was going to write about, but one, I put it out there. And that’s the thing that I want to share is accountability and putting your dreams out there. It sounds woo-woo. It sounds a little hippy-dippy, but it truly does hold yourself accountable.
There’s a scientific study that says having a goal, making a plan towards your goal gets you like 35% of the way towards your goal. Telling people that you have that goal takes it up to like 55%. And then making accountability partners takes you up to like 85, 90% when you have those checkpoints. And that, so for me, I’m going to let this kind of fester in my head now. I want to do this. I just made more time to think about what I wanted to write about. And then one day I remember I just had this idea and I sat down and I wrote the proposal in one day. I was like, I think I like this, like it’s giving me a ton of energy and I really want to feel like this is an important message to share.
Then I said, OK, well, what’s the next step? I need to get an agent. OK, cool. I have enough author friends in my circles that I was like, I think I want to write a book. Are you open to introducing me to your agent? And a lot of my friends are still debut authors, their first time help. So their agents are right in that wheelhouse. I’m not trying to go after Jay Shetty’s agent. And so went to New York, met with them. three agents that week and got offers from all three and so secured that. And then I was like, oh, now I have even more accountability. Like this person believes in me and now I have to write this proposal because the proposal I turned in, I didn’t know what I was doing. It was just like, you know, two sheets of paper was like, here’s my idea. Do you like it? And then she was like, okay, Now we got to turn this into what are the chapters? What are the summaries for every chapter? What is the connective tissue of this thing? And that took me like six months. Like that was like real work. And what I started writing was not what I ended writing is the funniest part.
What I thought the book was going to be about ended up being a component of it, but it took on a whole other kind of life of its own. And so now I’m in. The coolest thing is once you have a very structured outline like that with the summaries, I right now and my editor has told me that I am going at a speed that’s not normal. So I’m very aware of this. But. I basically have said every chapter is about 5000 words. That means I’m going to write 1,000 words a day every week, Monday through Friday, so I’ll have a chapter done a week. My book is 13 chapters, so 13 weeks, and the book is done. In my head, it just seems so simple. Now, as I’ve gone through this process, I’ve learned, okay, some days I’m not feeling creatively energized. Some days the kids need me more. All in all, I started it in December. I’ll turn in the manuscript by the end of May. And it’s been a six-month process of now writing the book. So all in, six months of proposal, six months of the book. It’s a year of writing. But I’ve been very intentional about it. I’ve said, this is when I’m doing this. This is the date I’m doing it by. So you just have to kind of give the thing life.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, and you decided to traditionally publish as opposed to self-publish. How come?
Amanda Goetz: I did. This was a tough decision for me because, one, it’s not a sure thing to go after a traditional publisher. And there’s fear of rejection. And truly, I think if I would have gone that route and I wouldn’t have gotten a deal, I probably wouldn’t write it because I think I would have gotten in my head of, well, this isn’t good.
The way that I looked at it and the decision I had to make was, is it a means to the end or an end? Am I writing the book because I want to sell this book and I want to make money from the book and that’s this? Or is it a means to the end where the book sparks a message and a movement that I get to go then speak around and potentially do a podcast around and build more and more and have it turn into the next book. And for me, where I’m at in my life and when I stepped away from it all and really did some of those exercises I put in the course, It was the second. It was the means to the end. I want this to be the beginning of a conversation and the beginning of this next chapter of my career. So with that, a traditional publisher, I’m not going to make money.
Making money from a traditional publisher, you’re not in it for the money. I would make so much more money self-publishing this book. But it’s going to get the message out there. And then I’ll have a publicity team that can then put me on stages and I can talk about it. I’m going through keynote speaker training. I’m doing all the things. So you have to understand, is it the end or the means to the end? I think then aligning the path accordingly.
Rob Marsh: And as you are thinking this out, how does that change the rest of the flywheel, as we mentioned earlier, and how everything feeds into everything else? Does the business evolve into something different or is it, again, a continuation of what you’re doing right now?
Amanda Goetz: I think it would be a continuation. I love people. I love being around people. I didn’t realize how much having a community is like my passion and superpower. I love bringing people together and having them. That biweekly coaching and fostering that, it really lights me up. I don’t see anything changing with that. With everything else, it’s not a huge time suck. I’ve got the newsletter down. I’ve got to show up on social. I think that this is just now adding another piece to the puzzle, but they all kind of connect.
Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about your course, because this is coming out in a couple of days. And I’ve been lucky enough to see a little bit behind the scenes. I haven’t gone through every single module, but I’ve been through a lot of the internal work stuff. Tell us why you created it, what’s the purpose, and who’s it best for?
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so it’s called Life’s a Game, the Master Class. So anybody that’s been following my newsletter, they’ve got a sense of what it’s going to be. But a lot of productivity courses are all around the external factors. Like, OK, you’re struggling with procrastination or focus, or how do you approach a to-do list? What’s a second brain? How do you use that? OK, those are all important things. But what I’ve found is I’ve done about a decade of coaching with Harvard-trained coaches and cognitive behavioral therapists. And what I’ve learned and what we talked about a little earlier is, My clicks into my flow state and success and taking up space in my own life happened when I did the internal work. And so this course at its highest level is helping you master time, energy, and ambition, but it’s by doing so through a lot of first introspection.
So I say, you know, we are all wired based on previous programming. Like if you think about our brain as a software system, your childhood programmed it, your relationship with your parents programmed it, past relationships programmed it, you have this programming. And if you’re going to install new software, meaning you’re going to change your patterns, change your behaviors, you have to look at the source code and understand where you need to change the coding. So That’s what’s different about this course is every module, whether it’s talking about limiting beliefs, where do those come from? What do you have? And then how do you reprogram it? And if we’re talking about time management, it’s like, okay, where does your procrastination or lack of focus come from? Let’s get curious about that source code. And then now you’ve got a fertile ground for reprogramming and building new skill sets because it’s really, really hard to add on something new when you haven’t created the space for it.
Rob Marsh: And then once you’ve fixed the inner, then you go deeper on how to get straight with the outer in the course as well.
Amanda Goetz: Exactly. So every, every module has what I call the IDEA framework. It goes introspection, decoding, then you do an exercise and then application. And so you really move through that internal to external in every single module.
Rob Marsh: Awesome. And there’s lots of exercises. I think I shared with you, I was going through it as quick as I could. So I was skipping some of the exercises that I now have to go back and really think through. But it’s that kind of thing that, again, if we want to build a business like what you’ve done, this is really the model that you followed as you’ve done all of the things that you’re doing.
Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it really is. People want the quick fix. They’re looking for someone to say, post this thing and you’ll go viral. Do this and you’ll unlock money. And it’s really the culmination of all these little things that add up to those things. And so if you put in the work and do these exercises, you are now setting yourself up to take it to another level. And so that’s, that’s the thing that I get really pumped about. And I made it, you know, it’s, it obviously took me months of work to make it, but compared to, I made it about like half the price of everything else that’s on there, because a lot of people who follow me are like, you know, moms or people doing side hustles. And they’re like, I believe that this stuff should be accessible to people.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. OK, so that brings up another question. You are very driven. You have had some pretty amazing experiences. You know, if somebody’s listening to your story and thinking, oh, I’d love to have a business like Amanda, can anybody do it? Or do you really need something extra to push you to accomplish this kind of a thing?
Amanda Goetz: I believe anyone can do this idea of… I have a goal… And I want to achieve that goal. And I’m going to make a chronological series of steps to get to that goal. And not everybody wants to be like me. And look. I have friends that are literally like, I don’t want your life. You are going hard every day. You’re showing up. You’re doing this. Not everybody’s wired like me, nor should they. But if somebody sees all these things that I’m doing and they’re like, I want to get there, then my biggest piece of advice is you’ve got to figure out how to build sustainable momentum because if you what happens is what I see with really ambitious people is we pendulum swing. We go really hard and then we burn out. And then we’re like, I can’t do anything. And so now you’re over here for a while and then you muster up the strength and you’re like, OK, now I’m ready to go back. And then you swing over and you’re going 100 miles per hour again.
And so my thing has been I steadily go a little above the speed limit, but like consistently. I don’t ever allow myself to pick up too much speed because I know I’ll break down. So I’m really, really focused on helping people stay in this like going above the speed limit, but you’re not going to break down like you’re pushing, but you’re also resting. And I have lots of frameworks for how I incorporate rest in my day. I’m done working every day at 3 p.m. I don’t work after 3 p.m. Like I have these guardrails where I’m taking care of myself so I don’t break down.
Rob Marsh: It feels like that ties back to the idea you mentioned earlier, funnels versus flywheels. Funnels tend to require launches and big bursts of energy versus the flywheel, which takes a lot of energy to get spinning. But once it’s going.
Amanda Goetz: Exactly. The coolest thing about what I’ve done over the last six years or six months with this new world of being a content creator and driving to products and services is that it was a lot of work up front, like to make this course a lot of work, to build a membership community and get all of the pieces in place and the emails that trigger at the right time, like that’s a lot of work and investment in time and energy and money because like some of that stuff I need somebody else to help me with.
And so I had to hire somebody to kind of help me with some of the triggers, but it’s like, Okay, now that’s going, I have steady recurring revenue coming in that is now I spend an hour a day with the community. What took me, you know, 40 hours a week for a few months now is one hour a day and I’m making the same amount of money. So understanding that, like same with the newsletter, a lot of effort upfront, made no money, had no sponsors. Now I make about 10K a month in sponsorships for the newsletter. Okay, great. That’s one day a month to make 10K. So these are the things that you have to understand in this whole creator world is it’s a lot of energy up front.
And most people, if you’ve ever seen that meme, like somebody shoveling And it’s like the pot of gold is like on the other side of the wall. And the only difference is the person who got tired up here, they kept going. And the person that got tired here was like, it’s never going to happen. They walked away. Both have the gold behind the wall. It’s just when you get tired, you kind of have to know, I’m doing this for a reason and you keep going. But most people kind of stop. And the people that you see, the only difference is they just kept going and kept showing up.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. If you could go back and talk to college student, Amanda, who’s flying to Chicago to work, you know, two days a week, busting her hump, you know, through the weekend and give her some advice that would help her, I don’t know, accomplish this faster, do it a little bit differently, maybe avoid a mistake. What would you tell her?
Amanda Goetz: I don’t believe in mistakes and regret. I believe that I had to learn all the lessons. I had to learn to get to where I am. Look, I got married when I was 21. I had kids young, but I don’t I think I would just go back to tell her, like, you are going to be strong and you’re going to get through everything that comes your way. And you’re just going to keep getting stronger. So just know and trust it, that you are totally capable of handling everything that’s going to come your way.
Rob Marsh: Amazing. OK, the course comes out in a couple of days. We have a link that we’ll link to in our show notes. It’s the shortcut will be thecopywriterclub.com/amanda. If you want to check out Amanda’s course. Thanks for being here, Amanda, sharing so much of your journey. I’m a fan. And so this has been a lot of fun just chatting with you about how you’ve built your business over the last few months.
Amanda Goetz: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.
Rob Marsh: Okay. That’s the end of our discussion or the discussion between Amanda and myself. There are so many good ideas that got mentioned in this discussion that we really didn’t have enough time to jump into. And I want to touch on a couple of those and add to what Amanda shared.
One thing that she mentioned, and I wish we had had some more time to talk about this, but Amanda talked about expanding the luck surface area. This is an idea that I love, but we didn’t actually specify how exactly you do this. We talked a little bit about saying yes to more things, but in order to expand the surface area for your lock, really what you’re trying to do is get exposed or seen by more people. having more opportunities to talk to more people, create more connections, to create more relationships, opportunities to have people see the things that you do. And so in order to do that, you need to make more offers. Or if you’ve only got one or two things, you need to make those offers in more different ways so that people can be exposed to them, they can see them. You need to create more products and services.
We talked with Josh Long just a couple of weeks ago on making bite-sized offers that clients can say yes to and how to reach out to those clients who are maybe pulling back on their marketing budgets just a little bit in order to find ways to connect with them and let them see how you can help them. Expanding the luck surface area means making more connections, connections with potential clients, other prospects, with copywriters, with content writers, with marketers, with other people who are building businesses like you. Expanding the luck surface area oftentimes means joining a community where you can make those connections. There are free communities like our free Facebook group, the Copywriter Club. But there are also paid communities. Obviously, I’m partial to the Copywriter Underground. That’s the one that we talk about a lot. But these are places where you can make connections with other people who are investing in their businesses right now. They’ve got a reason to go in, to engage, to learn. So paid communities can be one of the very best ways to expand that luck surface area.
You also want to be talking about the problems you solve. You want to be talking about it on social media and in newsletters and on stages, in guest posts, on podcasts, wherever you can show up and share both the problem you solve and the person that you solve it for. The more you can do that, the better. You know, we talked about three weeks ago with Joanna Wiebe on the podcast, and she mentioned the daily non-negotiables. These are the things that you want to make part of your daily non-negotiables. Now it sounds like a lot, but a system can make it doable.
So go back back and listen to what Amanda shared about her system for creating a month’s worth of content with a single day’s worth of work, because creating systems like that will help you increase your luck surface area so that you can make more connections and have more opportunities for things to go right in your business.
One other thing that I want to touch on is that funnel versus flywheel idea. I really like this idea. It’s a great reframe of the work that we do. Most of the activities that we do each day or each work should feed the rest of the machine that we’re building. And oftentimes when we’re working on funnels and launches, we go all in on one thing and then we shift our focus to going all in on another thing. All of those activities that I just mentioned that you need to be doing to increase the luck surface area in your business, if you do them right, you’re getting attention where it does the most good and it connects prospects and readers to your other content, to your products and to your services, rather than launching and focusing on one thing at a time. You’re now building and growing everything together.
This reinforces the connections between all the things that you do. It might take some reflection in your business to figure out, are the things that I’m doing connected in some way that makes sense? If they’re not, maybe change up your offer just a little bit or find ways to create those connections.
This reminds me just a little bit of the Ascension model. We talked a bit about this with James Wedmore a long time ago, episode 25 of the podcast, but it’s basically building in services and products in your business that lay on top of each other and serve each other so that people can move through the different offers that you have and fix the different problems in their businesses that they’re dealing with at different times. It might be worth going back to listen to what James had to share if you’re interested in this idea. And you can find that in episode 25 of this podcast.
Okay. I want to say thanks again to Amanda Getz for joining me to go so deep on her business, on content creation systems, and so much more. We talked a lot about her new course, Life’s a Game, The Masterclass. If you’re interested in checking that out, go to thecopyrighterclub.com/amanda, That’s an affiliate link.
The course doesn’t go live for another two days if you’re listening to the day that this podcast goes live. But if you’re talking about, you know, after Thursday, I think March 14th, then you want to go visit copyrighterclub.com/amanda and just check it out.
And if you use that link to sign up, you’re going to be supporting this podcast and helping us bring you more amazing guests like Amanda.
Now, if you’ve enjoyed this show, I’d really love to hear your thoughts. And of course, I’d love it if you’d leave a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. But additionally, after we finished recording, Amanda offered to come back and do a training for the Copywriter Club. And if that’s interesting to you, drop me an email at rob@thecopywriterclub.com to let me know that you’d like to hear more from Amanda and even what you might want her to talk about and share. And yeah, that is my real email address. So you can send it directly to me there.
Obviously, there’s a lot that we can learn from Amanda, and I’m looking forward to having her come back and teach us even more.
That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast.
Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast
Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about.
But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few days.
Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say…
Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let’s kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you?
Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we’re seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we’re like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here.
Rob Marsh: So for anybody who’s not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let’s just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it?
Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there’s two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we’re never all going to agree. It’s just not going to happen. Or we can educate consumers so that they’re making purchasing decisions that are going to align with their values, their ethics, what they’re actually looking for, and really do the job of vetting the things. Because we’ve all had experiences of things not being quite what we expected, but because these people are really great marketers, a lot of times really are using really amazing copywriters, we’re easily persuaded. And persuasion is a double-edged sword.
Michelle Mazur: And I think Maggie and I bring a unique set of skills to this conversation because. It is easy for her and I to clock what is happening, like what persuasion strategy is being triggered and being like, oh, they’re using scarcity or they’re using a combination of these to ratchet up the buying tension and pressure and then putting their solution as the only way to buy. And so we’re skilled at seeing that. I really wanted to relay to people that, hey, if you fell for this stuff, it’s not your fault. These are very strategic and intentional decisions business owners are making to sell and to sell as much as possible, to have the mythical six-figure, seven-figure business that we all hear so much about. And so being able to deconstruct and show people like, what’s really happening here? And here’s why you made the decision you did. So don’t feel bad and don’t stop trusting yourself. Because that’s the other thing that really pains me is I see business owners who do get duped And then they blame themselves, like, I suck. I didn’t follow the proven formula for success closely enough. And really, it’s not their fault. And most of this one size fits all that is sold in the marketplace doesn’t work for a lot of different business owners for a variety of different reasons. So taking that pressure and blame and shame off of it and being able to have a conversation and name it for people, I feel is really important.
Kira Hug: Yeah, and I mean, copywriters consume a lot of online products and courses. So I think this is a great conversation for our audience. We’re also influential with our clients, which I know we can talk about as well. But I want to go back to your Voxer. I want to get into your Voxer conversation. So I need to know the details of when did that conversation start? I mean, I know you two have been friends for a while. When did that conversation ratchet up and turn more serious? Is this 2020? Is this before then? And were there certain events that took place where you two were like, this is bigger than us chatting on Boxer. We need to go larger.
Maggie Patterson: I think there’s some interesting things in that. Michelle and I have been friends for, what, 10 years, Michelle? We’ve been friends for a very long time. Michelle decided we need to be friends, so now here we are.
Michelle Mazur: Michelle did a little stalking of Maggie Patterson, too, because I was like, I’m gonna be friends with her.
Maggie Patterson: And we’ve both been talking about, I mean, Rob and Kira, we’ve known each other for a long time, like, it’s not a secret. I’ve always been, for lack of a better word, vocal about these things. And I’ve just been like, yeah, that doesn’t sit right with me. Here’s why. And so we’ve both been doing those things separately. And you know, we’d be having our conversations on Facebook Messenger, and that evolved into Voxer. And then I kind of went through the experience in early 2020, with the pandemic of I had too much time on my hands, didn’t we all? And that’s when a lot of things like some of the business practices that we had both clocked for a long time as being very, not productive or helpful for potential consumers, they really ratcheted up. And I just started getting more vocal in my own work. Michelle started getting vocal in her own work. Like I was just like, I’m going to pull the ripcord and put this out there. Michelle kind of had the same attitude. And then the two of us were like, Oh, yeah, we need to formalize this body of work more. Because we also knew that as people have been talking for so long, if we didn’t talk about it, someone else was going to fill that gap in the market. And we decided to go for it. And then it’s just kind of run away on its own three years later.
Rob Marsh: So as we talk about this stuff, I think there’s a tendency to start out and say, wait, hold on a second. marketing fills a purpose in business, right? And it’s really easy. In fact, I’ve seen people stand up at events or whatever and say, wow, all of this stuff is really bad. And you guys aren’t saying marketing is bad. At least my impression is that what you’re really trying to do is take us back to a place of integrity. and say, okay, hold on a second. Let’s start with helping people solve real problems in a way that doesn’t take advantage of them. Does it go beyond that?
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, I believe it does because I always say I’m marketing agnostic, but marketing is neither good nor bad, just like scarcity is neither good nor bad. It’s all about how you use it. in your business. And since we are a very unregulated industry, Maggie and I talk about this a lot, there are no ethical standards for like, hey, when is it appropriate to use scarcity and when is it not? So everybody is making these personal decisions. So yeah, it’s about bringing us back into integrity, helping people realize that, I mean, I feel like this is kind of the premise of both of our separate podcasts of like, there’s more than one way to market. There’s no one right way to market your business. You have options. And people for thousands of years have been marketing in ways that are in alignment, in integrity. And it seems like in this digital world, we got into … I almost look at it, I feel like it’s like a timeshare salesman. We were taught to market and sell like timeshares people, right? Put on the pressure, get the credit card, get them to sign the contract. Give them all the bonuses just for showing up. And that’s the way we were taught to market. But if you like Maggie and I both have backgrounds in corporate That’s not how corporations do it. Corporations market in a way that is going to align with their values. They’re not putting disappearing bonuses out there because they understand how they want to show up. They have experts in-house to help them create their marketing, whereas we rely on all of these people to tell us what is the right way to market. and that’s usually something that’s a little bit laden with some manipulation and NLP and other things.
Kira Hug: Yeah, we can talk about NLP and get into some of the topics that you discuss on the podcast and get a little more granular. Before that, are you able to share more of a historical context of this, what feels like a bubble that we’re in this online marketing world that we’re in? Just like even since 2020, just kind of talking through the highs and lows, because it has changed dramatically. And I think partly related to pandemic, economy, AI, more education provided by people like the two of you, where there’s just more awareness and sophistication. So maybe this is just more of a State of the Union with some historical context to just ground us in where we are today.
Maggie Patterson: Well, we just recorded an episode on a 2024 State of the Union yesterday. So this is perfect timing. Yes. To say that, to say all that. Yeah. So what we saw in 2020, right, is we saw a shift because everyone was home. Oddly, a lot of, I’m not going to say everybody, but a lot of people had excess financial resources because they weren’t going to dinner. So we kind of created this bubble that happened in the industry. And honestly, for anyone who’s been around for any length of time, this is not new. It was just an intensification of what was already happening. And since 2020, we’ve seen a lot of different things. We’ve definitely seen way more consumer awareness because the bigger the bubble got, the more people became impacted. The more people impacted, the more you have people who are willing to speak out. This is why there’s very lively threads on Reddit talking about these issues. And whether those are fair and objective or not is not my place to say. But I mean, those conversations are happening more and more. But then we also had AI that impacted things, so the pressure’s ratcheted up. People are significantly burnt out at an existential level, so they’re just looking for simplicity, they’re looking to leave corporate. There’s been an entire movement of people who are literally being forced back to the office, who are now looking to entrepreneurship to save them, to be like, I don’t want to go back there. I really like the life I’ve built. So we have more and more interest. We’ve seen a lot of bigger name, what we call celebrity entrepreneurs pivoting towards targeting people trying to leave corporate. So there’s a lot of different things. And then what’s happened is, as consumer awareness has really become, I’m not going to say it’s widespread, but there’s definitely a greater number of people who are like, hey, I don’t really like that. What we’re starting to see is people slowly tweaking the classic tactics to say, I’m all of a sudden, I’m ethical. And I’m like, I don’t trust you as far as I can throw you. And that’s not very far. So really having to be constantly staying on top of like, this is the new tactic. This is the new tactic. And let’s be real. People are running businesses. They don’t have time for that. So Michelle and I were like, Hey, I’m noticing this. Let’s have a conversation. Then I go talk to a couple other people. Then I come back, we do some research and then we bring it to the podcast to be like, Hey, have you seen these faceless Instagram accounts? Here’s what you need to know.
Rob Marsh: I feel like saying this is ethical or this is the ethical way to do something is the new marketing tactic that people have layered on as the pendulum swings back and forth.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah. And ethics, like my background, I have a PhD in communication. I taught persuasion and there was ethics baked into it. And the thing people don’t realize about ethics is that they are very personal to the business owner, especially in an unregulated industry. And like Maggie and I sometimes even disagree about different tactics. Like I’m like, I don’t think I would go as hard on that one. And she’s like, no, no, it’s just wrong. Cool, but that’s a reflection of our values and nuance, whereas these people are like, oh, yes, I’m going to teach you ethical marketing. Well, unless you’re actually teaching people how to establish their own values and their own ethics. It’s really hard to teach ethical marketing because some entrepreneurs might be really fine with agitating pain points and making people feel like crap because what their ethic is, is they value making money and getting the sale, right? Like, so it’s fine with them. And we don’t have that more nuanced conversation of like, What are ethics really? But it sounds really good. And I think that’s where we have to be skeptical. During the podcast yesterday, I was saying you have to watch what people are saying and then see how they’re showing up to market. Because what I see a lot is people saying, oh, I’m ethical. And then I see a lot of the old school bro marketing tactics. And I’m like, huh. Interesting, like making a note of that.
Maggie Patterson: And I think to that point in this conversation that Michelle and I keep having is if you’re going to claim that you’re ethical, I want to know what your values are. I want to know what your ethics are. I want to know who you learned from. that’s usually missing. So if you are like, is this person actually ethical? What has informed their work? And an example I give a lot is the terrorist test by Martinson and Davidson. I might be wrong on that, but the terrorist test, that is a very widespread marketing framework that is a framework for ethical persuasion. Is that informing your work? I never see that. Never, never see it. I look for it. So you’ve got to always kind of look at, hey, here’s the claim they’re making that I am ethical, or honestly, another one you see a lot of is trauma informed. What makes this ethical? What makes this trauma informed? Because some of the most egregious examples I have seen in the last few years, without naming names, because we don’t name them, but there’s a pattern there. are people claiming to be trauma-informed, people claiming to be ethical because they’re buzzwords and they’re just throwing them on there trying to monetize or capitalize on a trend. And it’s not a trend, it’s a way of doing business.
Kira Hug: Yeah, and this goes back to our role and responsibility if you take it on as copywriters who work closely with clients who have offers and may want to show up in a certain way or want to show up as ethical. Can you two speak to how you view the role of copywriters today and, you know, what role we can play with all of these different tactics?
Maggie Patterson: So I think the thing we have to remember, whether you’re a copywriter, you write content, whatever it is, if you’re a service provider and you’re being engaged by a client to provide a service. So with a copywriter, you have influence over the tactics they’re using, the strategies they’re going to use, how they’re using the pain points, what persuasion they’re using. So if a client comes to you and says, hey, I want to approach it this way. You have a lot of ability to maneuver and guide your clients and make strategic recommendations to say, you know what? Let’s discuss this. I want to understand why you want to do this. And let me suggest a different way to do it. And a great example is pain points. People are like, well, I have to use pain agitation solution. Well, do you? Can you approach this from an empathetic point of view? Can you create a different type of connection? Because I always say this to my clients. Do you want to get people who are all riled up buying from you? Or do you want to get people who are making a really calm, well-considered decision? I personally, in my business, want people who’ve made calmed, well-considered, well-informed decisions, not ones whose nervous systems are completely shot.
Michelle Mazur: It’s funny. Yesterday in my community, the Expert Up Club, we were talking about the problem agitation solution framework. And someone was like, I don’t want to agitate their pain. And I’m like, I understand that. Because to me, when we agitate someone’s pain, it’s like seeing someone with a broken leg and being like, oh, I see your leg is broken. Let me kick it repeatedly until you pay me to stop. And that’s what agitation does. So we were talking about other alternatives. Are there bigger forces at play, and how can you adapt copywriting frameworks to become, I don’t want to say become more ethical, but to become more conscious of like, how is this making the person receiving this message feel? Like having that self-awareness so that you’re not hijacking somebody’s nervous system and they feel all amped up and they’re buying because it feels like it’s the only solution. But how do we take what we know and break it apart and keep what works and adapt it so that we can approach talking about somebody’s problems in a more empathetic way that makes them feel seen and heard instead of triggered and harmed.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, you’re talking about something that Karen and I have talked about on our podcast a few times where I love the PAS framework, you know, problem, agitate, solve. However, you know, agitation should not be kicking the broken leg, right? You agitate or you mention how that pain shows up in somebody’s life. so that you can show you understand, right? So leaning into empathy. I even said a few episodes ago that instead of talking about PAS, we should be talking about PES. Problem, empathize, and then solve, or however you want to expand out that particular writing formula. So you’re speaking my language here, but I’m curious. So Maggie, you mentioned, as copywriters, we need to step up and influence our clients. But a lot of times, copywriters don’t feel like they have that power. They feel really constrained, like, oh, if I push back against this client, I’m going to be maybe a troublemaker. They may not hire me for another project. They may actually fire me on this project if I feel like I’m pushing too hard. So what would you say to that? copywriter or to me if I’m expressing that, how do we take control of that situation in a way where we’re not actually going to hurt our businesses or our relationships with our clients?
Maggie Patterson: This is a great question. It’s something I navigate with my clients all the time in a mentoring role. They’re like, oh, I really don’t like what this client is doing. What should I do? And the first thing I always say is, listen, I’m not going to dictate what’s right for you. You’ve got to decide for yourself where the line is. If it’s something you feel like is aligned with your values and you can work with it, great. I’m also not going to romanticize. We all need to make a living and get paid. So do I want you to not be able to pay your bills and have your house foreclosed on because you had to take an ethical stand because Maggie said so on the copywriter? No, I want you to think more strategically about how do I get the type of clients where I am being valued in my role as a copywriter for my strategic contributions? How do I start to screen up front for clients who are actually going to do this in a way that is going to work for me? And also, as a service provider, really stepping back before you even talk to that client. Go see what they’ve done in the past. Figure out if there’s things. Have those conversations up front to be like, OK, you know what? I notice in your last two launches, you’ve used scarcity. Can we talk about that? Being able to identify these things. Because I will say, a lot of the conversation and the pushback Michelle and I have got from this is a lot of businesses literally want to do things better. They just don’t know how. So if their copywriter is not bringing that solution to the table and no one else on their team is, how are they ever going to be able to evolve and change? And I think we don’t want to be nitpicking like every little tiny thing, but I think it’s like from the upfront first conversation with a client. How can you screen clients in? How can you get a client who’s going to respect your approach and your strategy and be really clear on where your deal breakers are? My deal breakers are going to be very different from everybody else’s here are deal breakers and that’s okay. But you’ve got to know too, sometimes it is okay if a client is seriously out of alignment to be like, yeah, I’m okay with getting fired. There’s been times I’ve had to part ways with clients because they have taken a turn and I’ve been like, and I’m out. And it’s just because they’ve gone too far down a path that I’m like, I, I’m like, I, I’m not going to be able to sleep at night over this. Like, and that to me is I like to be able to sleep. I like sleep a lot.
Kira Hug: The cool thing about what you’re sharing is it also allows copywriters to step into more of a consultant role, which so many of us want to do. We want to show up as a strategist and a partner and not just an order taker. And so this allows us to do that and to present solutions and ideas to say, there are other ways. Let me share some of these other ways we can go about this, which immediately changes the way your client may look at you when they’re working with you.
Maggie Patterson: I think the other thing to just add to that is just remember too, that just because you work, let’s say you work in the online space today, you’re not comfortable with the tactics. You can easily pivot to another thing. At one point, I was doing a lot of copywriting for, for lack of a better word, the seven figure coach set. And I was like, this is not for me. And I promptly pivoted back to working with tech clients because that was my history. And I’m not dealing with those things over there. So you’ve always got options. Sometimes you’re going to have to make a slow pivot out of there and be like, this is not for me. You don’t have to just accept that your clients today are, this is just the way it is.
Michelle Mazur: And I just wanted to say, I love the idea of the copywriter’s role being elevated to consultant, because I think copywriters have a key role to play in changing the industry for the better. So most of us got into business, not because we had an MBA from Harvard. But instead, we got in here because we really love writing. I love communication. I love marketing. Maggie loves service-based businesses. And we got in for that reason. And so we do not have the education on how to persuade or how to do marketing differently. Sometimes we don’t even know what all of our options are for these things. And copywriters can go in and play this unique role and say like, hey, I saw you’re using a lot of scarcity. Have you thought about this, this, and this? And really start that conversation. And they’re in there and they can help change the online industry for the better, like one client at a time by using their influence. And I think that’s a really cool opportunity.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. So I, up until now, we’ve kind of been talking about this sort of at a very high level, you know, 40,000 foot level. I would love to hear some examples of some of the awful stuff, maybe not so awful stuff. Maybe it’s just questionable that you guys have seen. You’ve been like, okay, I need to call that out. I know we’re not naming names, although I’m happy to name them. Happy to name names if you want to, but let’s talk about some of the things that we’ve seen that we’re just like, okay, that’s over the line and it really should be over the line for everybody.
Michelle Mazur: So I’ll go first because one of the things that really bugs me and it is very copywriting related is the program promises I see on websites where it’s like the program name and then add six figures of revenue to your business this year. And I know there is no way that program provider can offer that. There is no way they can promise that to everyone. But that is the promise. And that is a very sexy promise to the recipient. And we’ve gotten to a point where we have been over-promising and under-delivering for far too long. And anytime I see a promise like that, I’m like, oh! People so desperately want to believe that it can be quick, easy, fun, and lucrative. And they see something like that, and they’re like, yeah, this is going to help me get well above six figures. And it’s only $20,000. Like, wow, what a great ROI. And then they go in there, and they realize that the program’s not aligned with them, or it isn’t right for their business model. But it’s the sexy promise that you can’t actually promise, because it’s not in your control. bothers me to no end, because we have seen it. I mean, it’s getting slightly better, but still, it’s like, yeah, Maggie’s like, not really, Michelle. But it’s just, it’s a prime way that people get duped.
Rob Marsh: So if you want six, add six figures to your business, you got to join Michelle’s program.
Maggie Patterson: Michelle’s program is for a billion dollar people.
Rob Marsh: Maggie, what about you?
Maggie Patterson: There’s two that kind of dovetail really nicely with that, and they’re all interrelated, is the income claim marketing. That to me, I am sick to death of it. Whether that be your Instagram bio, your program promise, your how much money, honestly I don’t care how much money you make in your business. I’m lacking so much context for that and it doesn’t tell me anything about what you’re going to do for me as a consumer. So the whole income claim marketing thing, like I will die on that hill Absolutely. Unless someone can literally show me that that is the actual result audited by a third party. And guess what? I’ve yet to see that. Because I go and look.
Kira Hug: Even if they can, it’s like, well, what does that mean to me though, right? It’s like, great, you did that yourself, but how is that relevant to me?
Maggie Patterson: Exactly. So you’re now like, okay, I’ll use you care as an example, Kira saying I made a gazillion dollars, and I help all of my clients make a bajillion dollars, like, it is so empty, and consumers are sick of it. Because I will tell you this, as much as someone is like, this is the way we have to do it. There’s 10 consumers you don’t know about who you just repulsed. that went, I’m out. And closely related with that is testimonials. These completely over the top testimonials that are truly like the top 1% of results that reflect survivorship bias. This is not reality. You need to be using testimonials that reflect the average client result. If you are only ever picking your star clients, you are misleading people. And you have to be really careful with this stuff Because, especially in the U.S. I’m not in the U.S., so I can do whatever I want, I guess. But, you know, the FTC is starting to pay more and more attention to this. Things like income claims without substantiation and proof, like, guaranteed, there are going to be more public proceedings against this. We’re starting to see it, and we will see more and more of it. There needs to be truth and integrity in what you are saying you will do for your clients and what you are able to provide.
Michelle Mazur: Ooh, I have another one I want.
Rob Marsh: Let’s keep going.
Michelle Mazur: I know. I’m all like, oh, I’m fired up now. I can do it so you can do it to type messaging, where people are basing their expertise solely on what worked for them to build their business. So they say they have the proven process to get to six figures because This is what I did to get to six figures and now I’m going to sell it to everyone because it will work for everyone. And then the problem becomes when you don’t have real expertise and your proven process doesn’t work, real experts can adapt, right? We can pivot, we can think, we can be like, let me find out information and adapt this and tailor it to you. But if you’re selling your proven process and you’ve only done it for yourself, That’s all you got. It’s so shallow and there’s so much marketing and I think income claims, luxury lifestyle fit into this where it’s marketing based on envy, which my friend Jay Klaus was talking about. I was like, yes, we see this. They’re like, oh, they can do it. They have this great life. They have these cars. Purses from Chanel and whatever else, oh, and I can do it too if I just follow what they’re saying.” And that is not true and they might not even be able to help you, your type of business, or they might not even be experts in what they say they are, right? So it drives me nuts.
Maggie Patterson: And you know what goes hand in hand with that is this whole invest at all costs message. It’s like the final part of that sale, it’s like I’m going to turn. the screws to you a little, where it’s basically like, if you want this bad enough, you are going to invest. And this is where we see people doing kind of the classic objection handling that just goes too far. Like questions, answer the questions. But when we get into I’m going to handle objections, you’re now infantilizing your client, potential customers and clients. And what we’ve seen a lot of is this is how you can come up with the money. This is if you believe you will get x, y, and z. It’s just so sketchy and scammy and manipulative. And this I think we can all safely say that there is no surefire invest X, get Y at this point. I think we’ve been trying this as an industry for so long. So for me, it is the biggest red flag. If you see someone encouraging you to override your better instincts to shut down your critical thinking and get out your credit card. And this is why I will say to every single person on the planet, if you are ever on a call and someone wants to commit right there with your credit card, please close the Zoom and leave because nothing good is going to happen.
Kira Hug: Yeah, I’ve been on those calls.
Rob Marsh: But I mean, what’s crazy is sometimes like I’ve seen those calls, or have heard people talk, you know, like, you got to get them to have the commitment before they talk to their partner or whatever. But in my experience, if you trust them with the information to talk to their partner, oftentimes the partner becomes your best ally in, if your program works and actually solves the problem that they have, the partner is oftentimes the one that says, you should totally get that if it’s going to do this thing that you want it to do or you need it to do. So I think sometimes that stuff doesn’t just, it’s not just scammy, it backfires.
Maggie Patterson: A hundred percent. When I’m enrolling people into my masterminds, I have people who are like, I want to sign up right now where we’re having the conversation. They’ve been listening to podcasts. interacting on social media, whatever. And they’re like, I want to sign up right now. And I’m like, no, absolutely not. Go away and think about it. I’m going to send you the link and please sign up in 48 hours. If you are still ready, go sleep on it. We should all want this. We should not want people who are showing up who are like, it’s one thing to be keen, but it scares me when someone is that eager because that to me, I’m like, Ooh, is there a little desperation there? I don’t like it.
Michelle Mazur: And for me, I think this goes back to how can you give people agency? How can you give them the information that they need to make a decision? And maybe that is going to have a conversation with their partner or it’s taking a beat. Like I never make a sales decision on a call ever. It is my policy in my business. And so, and I’ve been on those calls where they’re like, well, if you commit right now, I’m like, no, I’m not committing now. I won’t. It’s not how I work and if they can’t like it’s like. Because I want to make sure that the numbers work. I want to make sure that this is the best decision, that I am making it from a place of being solid, that this is a direction I want to go in versus that rush just to get the credit card. So yeah, I’m always like, how can we prioritize people’s agency and give them what they need to make the best decision for their business?
Kira Hug: I think now might be a good time to say people listening might feel called out by these tactics like maybe they’ve done any of them. I know I’ve done many of them. But that’s what I love about your show is that you two are not afraid to say, we’ve done this or I’ve done this previously, like we’re all we’ve all made these mistakes as we’re learning and thinking differently about how to give agency to prospects and market differently. And so I would love to hear from each of you as far as a recent shift you’ve made and how you market or write or operate your business as of maybe the last year because you’re evolving and how you’re thinking about your business.
Maggie Patterson: Hmm, in the last year.
Kira Hug: Maggie, maybe you made all your shifts a couple years ago. I think so. We can go back in time. We can go back in time.
Maggie Patterson: Oh, I mean, I’m very vocal about the fact I 100% have used income claims in the past. And I will say this, when I use them, I had been encouraged to do so by a number of people I was working with at the time, and I was exceptionally uncomfortable. I was just like, this to me is like, as someone with a long marketing career felt, and I thought, oh, this is what I have to do in this industry. And you know what, I decided that was not going to work for me, ultimately, at the end of the day, because I felt so misaligned. I didn’t even want to promote those offers because I felt gross about it. And like, I don’t believe in any way, shape or form that has hurt me to not use income claims. So I stand by that. Does it mean maybe I’m growing a little slower? Sure. I want to grow in a way that I’m here for the long haul. So I will totally admit I have used income claims and don’t feel good about it.
Michelle Mazur: I think for me, one of the shifts that I have made in the past year is like, so I have a community and that community launches. It’s now evergreen, but I’m still doing semi-regular campaigns. And everybody says, oh, you need to do something like a launch event or you’re teaching them something. And then you switch into the pitch, right? And that has always felt terrible to me. You are here to learn something from me, and then I’m going to pitch you. There’s a huge shift in energy from like, ooh, I’m teaching, I’m teaching, I’m teaching, and now I’m selling, selling, selling. It’s a different vibe. And I was like, okay, so how can I not do that? How can I be 100% transparent that what I’m going to be talking about is this offer? So for the Expert Up Club, I offer an open house, which is actually a really good thing because selling a community is very different. It’s a little bit more abstract. So saying like, hey, you can come in. I’m going to show you around, show you the resources. You’ll get to meet some of the people who are part of the community. And then it’s clear from the get-go that this is your opportunity to book a call with me to explore or to join the community. So you get less people to sign up for your open house. But the people who show up actually know you’re selling them something from the get-go. And they tell me, they’re like, oh, yeah, I got a lot out of this. And I’m like, great. I’m glad you learned something. But I’m also glad that I was just very transparent, like, hey, I’m showing you around. Because I feel like that level of transparency and also telling them, like, yeah, I’m showing you around, but then you can apply and then have a call with me to make sure this is the absolute right decision for you. Because I just want to get like, here is your information. If you’re unsure, apply, book a call, we’ll talk about it. Like there’s no pressure here. And I feel like that has been a very successful way to promote it. And it has just felt in alignment, in integrity, instead of that kind of bait and switch feel of like a webinar or a challenge or other events that we can put on.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve seen that happening almost across the marketing industry over the last few years. I think our friend Brittany McBean pointed it out in 2020. She’s like, look, people are signing up for your webinar. They know you’re going to pitch it at the end. So why hide that? Why not just say it right up front? I’m going to be sharing the program with you. And she talked about how that actually helped, right? Because people there’s there’s no drop off when you make that turn and start to pitch or whatever, because people are expecting it. And it’s just a much more more, uh, it just feels better, I guess, uh, is what I, what I’d say. And, and we’ve seen that I’ve seen that switch almost across the board now where people, uh, tend to begin a webinar, not always, but probably 70% of them that I, that I’ve seen, they start with that kind of a, I’m going to share something with you. One thing I have seen twice though, in the last month with webinars that I just like logged onto to, Oh, I want to see what this is about or whatever people promised state to the end bonuses and did not deliver. Like, like, like, I will be giving away a $200, you know, Amazon card. And like, I didn’t, I wasn’t there. Maybe you just weren’t chosen, Rob. No, no, no. I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t there for the card. Like, that’s not what I was there. But I just, like, I got to the end, and I was like, wait a second, they didn’t give the thing away. And then literally, a different, totally different person, totally different webinar, totally different offer, free offer, whatever. Same thing. They didn’t give the state to the end bonus. And I was like, That’s got to be a mistake, right? That’s not a new thing, but maybe, I don’t know.
Maggie Patterson: Oh, it probably is a new thing. We’ll talk about it on Duped soon.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah. It wouldn’t surprise me if somebody is teaching that and hoping that people forget that you offer the stay to the end bonus. I love the fact that people are being more open about like, yeah, I’m going to be sharing my offer with you because I think the industry needs that because I feel like webinars have a very bad reputation and they aren’t as successful anymore because of the years of be like, I’m going to give you like 10 minutes and then a 50 minute sales pitch. And I think now webinars kind of have this bad rap and people are very skeptical of going and signing up. And I think we’ve seen that people don’t show up, like the show up rate is getting lower and lower.
Maggie Patterson: But it also speaks to the entire thing of like, we need to give our potential customers and clients the benefit of being not just transparent, but knowing they’re smart enough to know that if we’re not transparent, they’re going to go, nope, I’m out. And I think often we forget about that. Like I’ve seen a lot of people talk about marketing like a human. And I’m like, well, are you marketing like a robot instead? Like, This is Michelle’s pet peeve. She doesn’t like it. But I mean, ultimately, like, please be respectful of your audience. And like, give them the benefit of the doubt that they are gonna know what you’re doing. And a common conversation I have—this one cracks me up—this is one of my pet peeves is When people don’t have the price on a program and then you have to apply to find out this, like, don’t waste my time. I am a full adult. I know my budget. Tell me what it is. I don’t want to be persuaded. Like, I’m just like, to me, I’m like, nope. And do you know how many things I would have signed up for if I’d known the price? I assume I just go, no, it’s a scam. And every time I talk about this, people push back and be like, people need to be coached, people do this. And I’m like, no, they don’t. Because what they see is they know how many people applied and then signed up. They don’t see the number of people that aren’t even going to touch it. Because they’re not tracking their metrics that well, I can guarantee it. They don’t know how many people were on that page. So please don’t argue with me about that one, because please just be respectful of your audience. And don’t waste their time. Nobody has time to waste. Make it easy for people, and just be straight up about it.
Michelle Mazur: Especially if it goes back to that transparency and agency and giving people everything they need to know, because if my budget is $2,500 and then I show up on a call and it’s $10K, I’ve wasted my time and I’ve also wasted yours because there is no coaching you can do to get me to cough up $7,500 that I wasn’t planning on spending.
Maggie Patterson: Michelle, that’s a limiting belief. You would be able to come up with that money. I think you should open three more credit cards. Yes, I think you don’t want it bad enough and you need to work on your manifestation skills. Clearly, clearly.
Kira Hug: I want to pivot to NLP because I don’t want to run out of time without talking about a couple hot topics. I mean, you cover so many great topics on your podcast. One is NLP. I’m just interested in your perspectives on it, because I think there is some confusion in the marketplace about it, especially for writers, especially for writers, as far as what’s useful, what’s not useful. So feel free to rant or share your thoughts.
Michelle Mazur: So Dr. Stephen Hassan, he created the BITE model for cult indoctrination. And he talks about the fact that neuro linguistic programming is completely amoral, right? Like it really depends on the practitioner and how they’re using it. You can’t really have informed consent with it. because it’s like embedded in so many things and it’s in so many like copywriting techniques and marketing techniques that people don’t know that you’re messing with their mind and haven’t opted in to that. They can’t consent. So it’s completely amoral and you just have to hope that the person you’re dealing with who is messing with your brain has your best intentions at heart.
Maggie Patterson: And I think what’s interesting is where it shows up in online marketing is everywhere. Some of the most pervasive, most common copywriting techniques that we’ve all been taught are laden with NLP because what’s happened is since the 70s when this was created, which if anyone wants the deep dive, go listen to this episode on duped because we go in the whole history. This has come out of different psychological practices, then moves into being a communications thing. I literally had an NLP practitioner who was a master NLP practitioner on my podcast. She couldn’t explain truly what it was. But it does show up in these things like mirroring, repetitive language, how you’re breaking down objections. So you have to, I think, check in with yourself to be like, Where does this, and I think a really good question for a copywriter is, where does this come from? Let me go Google this. What is the origin of this technique? Because so many of the things are, some are pseudoscience, some are very effective. NLP is very kind of in the middle. We don’t really know what works and what doesn’t because it hasn’t been studied because people who are going to study things don’t really have time for NLP. And that, for me, tells me what I need to know. They’re just NLP. This is for pickup artists and scam artists.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, the industry like psychology, communication, they don’t really see it as a valid form of inquiry. And they don’t think that NLP has validity. So they don’t want to study it. Because it’s not something you want to stake your career on if you’re an academic.
Rob Marsh: I don’t blame them. I mean, I hear, I see people talking about NLP all the time. And I’m like, that doesn’t feel real. It doesn’t feel like that would work. It feels obvious or over the top oftentimes. So yeah, I don’t blame anybody for looking at it and saying, I’m not interested in looking into that any deeper.
Maggie Patterson: Here’s the funniest part, and this is the two creators of NLP that created it back in the 70s. Eventually, as it became, and it’s baked into so much self-help, eventually they started having a battle. And they had pictured this, the world’s greatest communication system. Guess what? They stopped talking to each other. So if their communication system worked, shouldn’t they have been able to work out their differences?
Kira Hug: They weren’t mirroring each other enough.
Maggie Patterson: Clearly. They messed it up. And I’m sure there’s somebody who’s listening who’s like, NLP, I love it. Great. It’s not for me, and I personally have a lot of issues. But if it’s working for you, bless.
Kira Hug: Maybe the awareness, maybe for writers listening who are not familiar, maybe it’s worth just, like you said, looking into the history, understanding the history, and then understanding some of the principles and tactics just so you’re aware of it, and you can spot it as a consumer, and you can also just be aware of it as a practitioner, whether or not you choose to use it. Okay, let’s talk about parasocial relationships and marketing because that sounds interesting. So I’d love to hear what that is and how that shows up. How can we be aware of it as consumers? And maybe if our role as copywriters play into that, we should also be aware of that side too.
Michelle Mazur: I love this topic because it really goes back to the heart of my communication studies. Parasocial relationships were identified in the 50s by two mass communication researchers. What they were seeing was these one-sided relationships that people were developing with TV characters. It actually got its start in like looking at soap operas and the relationship people had with the characters on soap operas, but have expanded to like journalists and celebrities. And it’s really this feeling like, oh, I really know this person. I like them. I trust them. I’m following them everywhere. And it used to just be this bastion for celebrities, right? Like Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is a master at developing parasocial relationships. She lets her people in. She publishes parts of her journal. Her song lyrics are really personal. So people feel like, oh my gosh, I really know Taylor. Taylor knows nothing about you, though. And now that we’re in the social media atmosphere where we can follow people or listen to their podcast and we’re in somebody’s ear, people can feel like they know us and they can trust us, which is something we have to be really aware of because they’re going to develop these. There’s nothing you can do to stop a parasocial relationship from developing. It’s just going to happen if you’re doing any kind of marketing. But realizing that when you recommend something, like, oh, the other person on the end who has this relationship with you is going to take that seriously. They have developed that whole no like and trust factor. If you go back to Robert Cialdini’s work, there is familiarity and liking happening, which makes you a very influential and persuasive source of information for them. So there’s nothing ethically wrong with having parasocial relationships. Most of them are kind of fun for a lot of us. Like I have a parasocial relationship with Simon Le Bon that I’ve had since like I was eight. So they’re fine to have, but as consumers, we always have to realize that just because we know, like, and trust someone doesn’t mean that they have our best intentions at heart when they’re selling to us because they don’t know us at all. So how is it possible to have those best intentions for you?
Rob Marsh: And this is why this is why celebrity endorsements work, right? Yes. Yeah.
Maggie Patterson: So if you look at it from the copywriting point of view, I really look at it as you have a responsibility as a copywriter to not lean so hard on the parasocial relationship that’s been developed through content and other means, and using it in a way that you are not creating a situation where there’s an expectation. And here’s a great example, we see this a ton. A lot of the big names, air quotes, in this industry, have very strong personal brands. Then they sell these mastermind programs and people get inside and go, but I don’t get person Y. And what happens is there’s a complete breakdown between they have fostered a parasocial relationship and then in the sales copy, in the sales process, people think they’re going to get that person. They bought it for that person. So how do you ensure that if you’re not If you’re using your personal brand or you’re writing for someone with a personal brand and you’re not going to be the person, how do you create transparency about how the program is structured? Are there additional coaches? What does this actually look like? How much of that person do you get, if anything? If there’s a group call, do you have to apply to have your question answered or do you answer all the questions? Are you actually going to get any attention? Because here’s the thing, people get so frustrated by this because it’s a bait and switch for them because they signed up expecting that person and they walk away deeply disappointed because they aren’t getting anything from the person they thought they had the relationship with. And I think that’s where I see the frustration from people. They’re like, this is not what I signed up for. And it’s because the copy is designed to use that parasocial relationship to get people to buy when it’s not actually flowing into things. Whereas I know in your groups, they get Rob and Kira. In my groups, they get me. In Michelle’s, they get Michelle. So we can, with integrity, have those things. But if you’re not doing those things, you need to be very thoughtful about that. I think as a copywriter, you can influence ensuring that the experience on the sales page matches the experience on the inside.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah, and I think the other interesting thing like thinking about it from a marketing perspective is if you are not going to be a part of the relationship that happens within the program. How do you lift up the other voices that people will be interacting with? So when you get there, you know, these people already exist. You have some type of maybe like a, like a beginning parasocial relationship with them. So it doesn’t feel like a bait and switch, but I do think that is the huge danger of personal brands. It’s like, oh, I feel like I know you and now I get to actually talk to you. Oops, just kidding, you don’t. That is going to cause the parasocial relationship to go south and reputational damage, I would imagine.
Kira Hug: That’s great advice. I think as copywriters, it’s also easy, you know, especially if you’re a newer copywriter, you want to write the sales page or the email copy and you want to sell that offer for your client because you need that testimonial and that win. So I think it’s easy to overlook OK, are we being really transparent here? Are we just trying to sell this expert? Or are we talking about their coaches? So that’s a great reminder for me. As we start to wrap this up, I’m curious if you two, as you’ve spoken up, I know you’ve been speaking up for years. But as you’ve leaned into this topic and going really deep here, what has the feedback been like for the two of you? I don’t want to be I don’t want to be negative and say like there must be a backlash but like how what has been your experience because you’re talking about topics that are triggering for people who because they’ve done it or they’ve made those mistakes or they’ve consumed and bought in this way and they feel shame and so how has that what has that been like?
Michelle Mazur: So I will start because since I am not active on social media, Maggie gets the majority of the negative backlash, whereas I do not because I am not. that I’m not publicly available on social media anymore by choice. And I think for me, the way that I see, and I know Maggie has this experience too, is when I get emails from someone who is like, oh my gosh, I almost bought this program. And then I listened to this episode of Duped and you saved me from making this investment. You saved me this much money. We get multiples of those emails and that feels good because it’s like, Oh, we’re actually making a dent. And I think we’ve And I think the other piece of feedback that I have gotten is that we normalize making these mistakes. And there’s no shame in it. It’s happened to every one of us. Maggie and I included have been duped. So for me, I get to see a lot of the good stuff because I’m not on social media. And I do get to see some of the bad stuff because Maggie shares with me on Voxer things people are saying to her. So I’ll let her cover that.
Maggie Patterson: But I, you know, Michelle, I think there’s one kind of interesting point in between the good and the bad. And it’s not been as much lately, but in the, I would, we’re three years in the first year and a half, we got a lot of feedback that was along the lines of demand. Why aren’t you, why aren’t you naming names? You’re being cowardly. You’re like, there were a lot of people that were really trying to, um, enforce what they wanted. They wanted us to create a podcast that was like a burn book that we were just going to take it all down. And I was like, you’ve got it all wrong. If you think I have the emotional capacity to do that, I do not.
Michelle Mazur: Yeah. Oh, I remember that. That was just like, yeah, they’re like, you have to name names. Otherwise, we don’t know who’s bad. And I’m all like, these people are like whack-a-mole. It’s better for you to be able to spot the patterns than Maggie and I creating a good bad list. Plus there’s no room for redemption and change. Like I do not ever want to label someone publicly because that takes away their opportunity for redemption and change and we also worry about being sued.
Rob Marsh: Well not only that, not everybody is bad in every situation, right? You know, so, so Maggie may make a promise that does not work for me and my business, but that does not mean that it’s not going to work for Kira. And so, you know, or a tactic used in one situation is not necessarily negative in every situation. So let me, I mean, let me give you an example. And this, I, I sort of have some weird feelings about this, but my mom had Alzheimer’s and she passed away a few years ago. When she was first diagnosed, she spent some money buying books about brain training and some nutritional supplements that have no way to help her. There is no cure for Alzheimer’s. She knew that, and yet in purchasing those supplements and those books, it gave her a modicum of hope that lasted for a while so that she could deal with her disease when it first started out. My mom was not poor. She was not in some situation where she was spending money that she needed for medication or something else. I don’t know all of the promises that were made and the things that she said, but she bought something that was probably not going to work for her, but it gave her hope. That to me is okay because that hope has value. Now, in another situation, I think it’s completely wrong. If somebody didn’t have money to afford it or was in a different kind of a situation, then that’s a negative. So I don’t think you can have a good and a bad list. I think it’s very situational. And I think as marketers, we need to approach this from a place where I am only going to sell things that work to the people who it works for. And if we do that, we’re probably going to be okay, even if you are, you know, using scarcity or urgency, you know, in your marketing, because the people that you’re talking to are the people that you can actually help and deliver results for. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be in marketing in the first place.
Maggie Patterson: Rob, I totally agree. And I think going back to the whole, like, what is the feedback been is Michelle and I, I like to think we’re doing a pretty good job of straddling the in between of like, we’re not snarkers, we’re not starting snark channels on YouTube or Reddit, like that’s not, I personally bless, I do not want to do that with my time. I know. But also to like, we’re not going to spend our time pretending that things are okay. So there’s got to be a middle ground. And I think for me, the most interesting part of this has always been when I personally got my character called into question, because I’m not calling anyone else’s character into question. But people think the right way to characterize this is people really, even though I continuously say like, I’m talking about patterns here, they become triggered, they react, and they come at me. And I’m very grateful to find a place in my life where I can approach them with a lot of patience and kindness. And I have really good boundaries, and I’m able to shut it down. But for example, every time I talk about upcharges on payment plans, people come at me and I’m like, No, go read the other five hundred thousand zillion comments here about like it’s not just me there’s all these people and you’re the outlier here so please be willing to change and I think for anybody if you’re listening to duped or consuming any type of content where you’re like Oh, I feel attacked. That’s information. And it’s there for you to reflect to say, OK, you know what? Super interesting. Why do I feel that way? And maybe that’s some data that I need to go and prove that versus lashing out. And I think the last part of this is, The most conversation I have seen about this has been on threads in the last little bit. And there is a real pushback against them calling it mean girl marketing. I guess I’m a mean girl suddenly at this point in my life, which is hilarious because I would imply I’m cool. you know, really looking at, like, if there’s all these people trying to negate this experience, maybe there’s something to it.
Kira Hug: Yeah, there’s definitely something to it. And I know that I learned from the episodes I listened to, I always like, I mean, sometimes I can feel attacked. And it’s not you two who are attacking me. It’s just like, Oh, yeah, I didn’t. I did that. I didn’t think about it this way. And I always learn something that I can implement, even if I can’t implement it all right away. It’s just like, you can take one idea and put it into practice. And so I appreciate what you two are doing and the impact that you’re going to make. I know it’s really hard to get that blowback. Thank you for doing it. For our listeners who want to learn more about duped or learn more about what the two of you are doing in your businesses, where should they go?
Michelle Mazur: Well, you can go to Duped.online for all things Duped. We’re in every podcast player everywhere, so subscribe. if you are interested in hearing these conversations. Maggie and I both have podcasts that support the other side, because this is consumer advocacy, so we’re not going to be talking about business models or how to market. If you want to learn more about how to market in a way that is aligned with your values, you can listen to my podcast, which is Make Marketing Suck Less. It is particularly for solo business owners who are juggling all the demands of client delivery and sales and marketing, and they’re really struggling to get the word out about what they do. Maggie, tell us about your podcast.
Maggie Patterson: It’s the BS Free Service Business Show. It’s for freelancers, consultants, creatives, and agency owners. Yeah, that’s a mouthful. And really talking about that journey of staying as a service business, because so much of the conversation is always like, you should stop doing services. You need a program. And I’m like, no, you don’t. You could just do more consulting, sell strategy. Oh, guess what? You don’t have to have an agency. Kind of challenging a lot of the conventional teachings of don’t trade time for dollars culture. And that’s everywhere the podcasts are on the internet.
Rob Marsh: Awesome. Thanks guys for joining us. We appreciate it.
Maggie Patterson: Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you.Rob Marsh: Okay, that’s the end of our interview.
Rob Marsh: I usually end the podcast with a few observations related to what we talked about on the episode. Today I want to be clear. All four of us on this podcast love marketing. It’s become common for some in our industry to criticize the use of things like a deadline timer or social proof or tactics like open loops to keep readers engaged. They often call it bro marketing or something similar.
Let’s be clear. Tactics are not good or evil. There is a place for all of them. It all comes down to how you use them. If you are decieving readers, that’s not good even if your product can help them. Manipulation doesn’t belong in a copywriter’s tool box, even if the product or service you offer delivers a result. We need to respect our customers. Trust them to know what’s best for them. Help give them the information they need to make wise decisions. And be okay with it when they don’t.
It’s funny, I’ve even seen a few people who claim to be ethical or some other watchword to communicate they are above using these tactics, turn around and use the same ideas they criticize when others use them.
I love marketing. I’m here to defend it. It is an effective tool set that helps people with problems find the solutions that change their lives. That’s something we can all be proud of. So keep your customer’s best interests at heart. Don’t take advantage. Don’t do things that benefit you but not them.
This thing we do is a superpower. But the thing about super powers is they can be used for good or evil. Use yours for good.
Thanks again to maggie and Michelle for joining us to chat about ethics in marketing. If you want to go even deeper, we recommend you check out their podcast, Duped wherever you listen to podcasts.
At some point in your business journey, you will hit a snag. An obstacle. A bump in the road. These bottlenecks hold you back from the kind of growth or results you want. In the 384th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with business consultant Josh Long about the various bottlenecks that hold us back and what to do to breakthrough and achieve more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
Bottleneck Breakthrough by Josh Long (book) qyJegGGhTztHxm-8WUJ9pVIYDcLrhiCzxon3uyJzMPBeqz-p22R7vp2nO5mmkIlO5CherRSyPA98.CrsQOjPax5bY9veqpBtgDkK1Wrzn5F5IWO61x8883u0&qid=1708997750&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=6d0dc5308d914b869f7a810b65281648&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes Blue Ocean Strategy by Chan Kim. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Every business—large and small, successful or struggling, profitable or barely scraping by hits it’s share of bottlenecks. If you’re struggling or barely scraping by, those bottlenecks are usually obvious. Not enough leads. Not closing enough projects. Or not enough profit. Identifying bottlenecks in a successful business can be a little more difficult… it takes a deeper look at what’s holding you back or slowing you down.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I had a chance to talk with business consultant, coach and author Josh Long.
Josh is the author of a fantastic book, Bottleneck Breakthroughs, that is written to help business owners of all sizes figure out what’s holding them back. And during our conversation we stepped through what it takes to grow and build a business at all stages, and how our businesses are slowed down when we don’t pay attention to the six levers Josh wrote about in his book.
We stepped through all six and if you’re a copywriter or content writer with your own business, you’ll definitely want to hear what Josh had to share.
But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member. But hurry, that training disappears in a few weeks.
Now to our interview with Josh…
Rob Marsh: All right, Josh, I’m familiar with you and your book and some of the stuff that you do, but just to get started here and let our audience know, tell me a little bit about how you became a management consultant, business coach, author and all of the things that you’re doing today. Josh Long: Yeah, Rob, thanks. Well, when I was in kindergarten and they said, what do you want to be when you grow up? I just thought, you know, that’s what I want to be—a consultant.
Rob Marsh: Yeah.
Josh Long: Not quite, not quite on the radar. Back then I was trying to get into med school and I had a professor who suggested I get my MBA while I was waiting to get into med school. I didn’t even know what MBA stood for. I got in and went to Fresno State. They had an entrepreneurship program. And you could major in your MBA in entrepreneurship. And I was like, that’s crazy. And I loved it.
I had met my wife while I was in grad school, and every doctor that I knew that was married before med school wasn’t married after med school. I knew that I valued her more than my career, so I decided to go the entrepreneurial route.
I got out, tried a software venture in grad school that failed, but it was a really cool opportunity. Then my roommate was in the mortgage business, so I got into the mortgage world. I quickly learned how little I knew how to run a company. So a friend of a friend introduced me to a guy named Dan Kennedy and I latched onto his stuff and just gobbled it up. And it really helped me understand what it takes to get clients, and to sell to clients, and to understand that dynamic of just building demand and then go from there.
And then I filed bankruptcy. I had a mortgage brokerage for four years, and went down in a ball of flames. And while I was licking my wounds, figuring out what I wanted to do, I had read a guy’s book called qyJegGGhTztHxm-8WUJ9pVIYDcLrhiCzxon3uyJzMPBeqz-p22R7vp2nO5mmkIlO5CherRSyPA98.CrsQOjPax5bY9veqpBtgDkK1Wrzn5F5IWO61x8883u0&qid=1708997750&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=6d0dc5308d914b869f7a810b65281648&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Ultimate Sales Machine by a guy named Chet Holmes. And I really liked it so I reached out to him and went to work for him and grew to be his right-hand man in that company for a couple of years. I ended up becoming marketing director and realized I could go out and do consulting on my own. I have done that since about 2010. And so that’s how I ended up getting into management consulting through the door of Dan Kennedy and marketing and Chet Holmes and sales and I’ve been doing it ever since.
Rob Marsh: So mentioned Dan Kennedy, Chet Holmes, you’ve worked with Jay Abraham, I think.
Josh Long: Perry Marshall. Yep. Got to know Jay through Chet. They were good friends. I spent time down in Jay’s office. He’s a very kind, generous, brilliant man. Yeah, and I work closely with Perry Marshall. We’ve been partnering on a project for the last six years called Advanced Mastery Network, where we help companies that are trying to get across what I call a seven-figure desert. Because you can have a really great company in the $1 to $2 to $3 million range that becomes a cash cow. But you don’t want to get stuck at five to seven million. You’ve got to get to 10 million if you’re going to try to cross that desert. So we’ve been running that and Perry’s a great guy. Obviously how we found each other.
Rob Marsh: Perry introduced me to you through sharing your ideas. But you know, as you’ve worked with these masters of business—not even online business, but business—over the last decade or two, what are the biggest lessons that you’ve taken away from those guys?
Josh Long: Yeah, well, the first one is, They have charisma for days like they’re born with it. So anybody that thinks they want to be the next Dan Kennedy, J. Abraham, or Perry Marshall, I will tell you, you can’t. It’s not possible. You either have it, you’re born with it, or you’re not. I ended up teaching at Fresno State. I taught for four semesters, business plan writing and feasibility analysis in undergrad for entrepreneurs. The program director, who was my program director, Tim Stearns, brilliant guy, we would talk and we would debate, are entrepreneurs born or can they be made? And obviously, Tim is an educator. He was the chair of the entrepreneurship program. He created it. It was one of the only entrepreneurship programs in the nation. And so he wholeheartedly believes that entrepreneurs can be made.
This is one of the few places on fixed mindset, I would say, that I actually believe in. Otherwise, everything else is learnable and expandable. But I really do think entrepreneurs are born. I really think they have the DNA, the wiring, the charisma, the ability to communicate, the ability to take risks. And seeing that magnified in Dan and Jay and Chet and Perry—they’re just wired to be on the stage.
The other fascinating thing is just how brilliant they all are and how fast their minds move and how fast they can synthesize ideas and data and connect dots. So that was really fun. And it was really fulfilling because I got to do that a lot with Chet. He and I would have a weekly call and we’d be going through strategy for clients. I was 15 years younger than anybody else in the company and the consulting side, and yet I was his go-to. I was his brainstormer. So that was really fulfilling to validate my ability to just connect those dots.
Other things I would say, being around those guys helped me realize that for you to get the most from them, you have to be incredibly coachable and wired in a way that you resonate with them. Because as coaches, as consultants, as advisors, there’re a lot of different personality types, and there’s a lot of ways that things can get done, right? You can skin a cat a lot of different ways. But To work with Dan or Jay or Chet or Perry, you’ve got to resonate with them. You’ve got to be in their lane, so to speak, on their frequency. Because their way isn’t the only way. It’s a very effective way, and it can work really well. And they’ve got troves of success stories.
But I think this was important for me to realize because, like a guy that’s really popular right now, Alex Hormozy, right? Brilliant guy. And he’s a great educator. But his hustle and grind philosophy does not work with me, doesn’t resonate with me one bit. I don’t care. I’m not that money motivated. I have a family. I’ve got three teenage kids. I’ve got a great wife. I’m not gonna work 80-hour weeks just to achieve something. And so knowing that, I think, is another thing.
And I’d see people that would come into these orbits and feel bad because they couldn’t get results following some of these guys’ advice. And Chet was probably the most hard-nosed of the bunch. He had a very grinder persona. And caring, I mean, all of them have big hearts. I think Dan is the one that reveals his the least. He tries to be the grumpy curmudgeon, but he really does care about everybody. But Chet was the most grinding of the bunch. And I realized I could fit there, I could get along, but it wasn’t my nature. Like, that’s not who I am at my core.
Rob Marsh: So this is an interesting idea, the made versus born idea, but also how much hustle does it take to be an entrepreneur? I actually posted on LinkedIn about this a little while ago, and there were a lot of people debating back and forth. A lot of people push back against the hustle culture. I have a sense that—and this is just from my experience looking out at the world—I can’t recognize a single successful business where the founder founders didn’t have to hustle or if you don’t like that word hustle didn’t have to bust their butts sometimes for years to make it happen and so that probably goes along with what you’re saying. You almost have to be born with that hustle—maybe hustle’s the wrong word… drive. The drive is probably a better word in order to make that happen.
Josh Long: I think there’s a couple paths so like many, I just fell into entrepreneurship. My grandfather had an educational games company when I was a kid, but he was an educator and his two partners were educators. He passed away when I was 18. So he was not around for me in my early entrepreneurial career. I didn’t really have a mentor or guide. And I was just making a lot of mistakes. When you start that route, you’re very isolated, you’re trying to just prove yourself, to get out there you go through the Dunning-Kruger effect, right?
You start with all this confidence and all this bravado and no skill. And as you gain skill, you quickly learn how little you know, right? And as I tell my kids all the time, wisdom makes life so much easier. Unfortunately, most of our wisdom is gained through making mistakes, right? So that’s one path. And that is the most common path, right? I think there’s a better path. And this is the one that I encourage anybody that has the ability and the time and the wherewithal—go get mentored by somebody. Go work in a company that runs really well. And we see this in the PayPal mafia or the Google experience of people that come out of those places. They are able to go launch successful businesses because they’ve seen what success looks like.
Now, I’m not saying they’re not working hard, but it’s definitely not as much of a grind when I see those people come out and succeed. I see this a lot in management consulting on the higher end, like the private equity guys, or people that start in high end management consulting, move into private equity, and they just have a smoother path, because they’ve learned on the job from somebody else that really knew what they were doing. And so that’s the ideal to me is go get the experience, go get the mastery, go learn it without all of the pressure of payroll, without all of the pressure of getting clients, without all of the pressure of things breaking, and the sleepless nights, and all of that stuff.
It’s not that one’s right or wrong. By no means am I beating up or belittling anybody that is working really hard and trying to find their way. I just found there are easier, smoother paths and being around people who know how business works can make it a lot more smooth in the process.
Rob Marsh: Okay, so let’s say that I or somebody who’s listening is in that first group. We’ve been hustling. We’ve been breaking our… bouncing our heads against the wall. We’re basically hitting what I think you call the bottlenecks. Let’s talk about those things that we hit in business and some of the solutions, some of the things that you talk about in your book that help us overcome all of these problems that come up. I think you break them out into six different levers in the business, which cover various things like marketing and strategy, but can we just talk about some of those places where we get stuck as business owners?
Josh Long: Yeah, I think what happened for me early on was I was talking with so many business owners during the recession in 2008, 09 and 10, when I was working for Chet and I just started seeing these patterns show up based on their revenue stage. And so as you go through revenue plateaus, you have common problems that others at those stages have, just like developing a body, human body and a child, like child development and human development has stages that are all going to be the same, right?
And so what I find is when you get to about a half a million in revenue, the most common bottleneck, the most common problem that you start having is starting to organize people around unique activities. Because when a company’s small, when there’s about a half a million a year in revenue, 30, 40, 50 grand a month coming in, It’s all hands on deck, right? Everybody can kind of crosstrain and do kind of everything else. Everybody kind of covers for everybody. And the team is just really an extension of the owner. They’re like go go gadget arms, right? They just make the owner’s arms a little longer to get around everything. And that’s great. And it’s a fun space to be when everybody’s willing to roll up their sleeves and everybody pulls some all nighters together. They’re up for jumping in on the weekends in a pinch.
But when you get to about that half million dollar mark, you gotta start dividing and conquering. You gotta have specialists that somebody’s in charge of payroll or billing or accounts receivable, or sales or marketing. And it doesn’t mean that you have to have one person for each of those. Some people wear multiple hats. But knowing that, hey, here’s your hat, Rob, you really got to take care of our accounts receivable. Because our accounts receivables got too far back, we got too many, too many payments that are over 90 days late. And We all just were kind of dealing with whatever clients we came across, whatever invoice we saw. But I need you once a week for an hour every week to call everybody on this list that’s over 30 days. And we need that money in. And that’s the beginning of an org chart, right?
That’s the beginning of creating structure. And then at a million, I mean, only 7% of businesses ever get to a million dollars a year. So you’re in rare air. It’s a very successful stage. And a lot of entrepreneurs think, oh, Once I get to a million dollars, all my problems will be solved. No, they just change. They get bigger and different. And at a million, the most common problem is you don’t have an operations person. And I call it the little Napoleon that’s just going to keep cracking the whip and making sure the trains are on time and everything’s going well.
So you as the entrepreneur visionary can keep going out and rainmaking and getting more business or being the visionary that’s setting the strategy of figuring out where you’re going and not having to deal with fulfillment. And I find a lot of entrepreneurs that are very successful, very capable, that don’t realize they need that little Napoleon, that operations director, operations manager. What happens is when they start getting into that million dollar ceiling, they start throttling their sales. They start throttling their ability to go rain make because they know if they get more business, they’re just going to have more fires to put out on the fulfillment side.
So those are really common patterns that I see in companies at those stages. And so what I recommend is you do a brain dump, right? You got to get stuff out of your head.
I talk about it in the book of just how to capture all of your ideas and then how do we weigh them? How do we figure out what’s worth pursuing? What’s not, how do we prioritize? Because entrepreneurs like novelty, right? We like new ideas. We like new shiny things. We’re always looking for the new shortcut. It’s not because we’re lazy. It’s not because we’re dumb or whatever. It’s evolutionarily. We’re meant to find the shortcut, the fastest path to the fruit, to the food, to the meal, to safety. Right? So, And in the marketing world, online marketing, there’s only about 11 bajillion new shinies every day coming out, right? AI being the latest.
And so what I walked through in the book, really, in chapter 13, is the profit priorities process. And it’s like, just dump all of your ideas in there. And then let’s go through and let’s actually score them on five different factors. Because when we score them on five different factors of how much time and effort is this going to take? What’s the cost? What’s the upside? And what’s the current pain that we’re experiencing? Then we get a much more sober perspective. And then we just look at the scores and say, oh, I didn’t think that was going to score so highly, but it did. Let’s go do that first.
And then you’re able to get results and they compound. I’ve had some consultants that have wanted to be trained in this in the last year and I’ve taken them through it. One of them said that he took a client through this in the fall, just their leadership team, and they just dumped everything out and they scored it all. And they were shocked at the top one or two solutions that they needed to implement because nobody would have guessed that those would have been the most valuable or that would have made the biggest change.
By going through this process, they all got unity on it, and they all were able to move forward in clarity and take action on it. And so it feels tedious, but to me, this is kind of like sharpening the axe, right? You can keep sharpening your axe so you cut trees down easier and easier, and you’re not just spinning your wheels, staying busy, getting through the end of the day and being like, I don’t feel like I got anything worthwhile done today.
Rob Marsh: Very common feeling. It’s interesting, you’re talking about these larger businesses. I was sharing with you before we started recording, we gave your book to all the members of our Think Tank mastermind. And they felt that it was incredibly valuable. And every single one of them is running a one or two person business. And so the ideas that you walk through—you don’t necessarily need a seven or ten million dollar business to benefit from the ideas you share. Even small business owners think, I need to take a step back here and figure out like, where are my leads coming from, right? Or like, how am I marketing my business? So I want to interject that—simply because I don’t want anybody who listens thinking, oh, my gosh, my business isn’t at half a million dollars. I can turn this podcast off because that is very much not the experience that I had reading your book or the members of our mastermind as well who are using it again, just as as one or two person businesses, too.
Josh Long: Right. And I think for them, when I go through their day-to-day, they’ve got to cut out a lot of things that just aren’t moving the needle. That’s the biggest activity that I recommend is to really get critical at what you feel you have to do versus what is actually making a difference, right? And that’s, again, having a sober perspective, really being critical of Gosh, you know, this is: I love this idea and I’ve got to go create a new course or something and I’m going to have this new offer and you’re going to go spend all the time creating it and you’ve not talked to anybody about it. You’ve not pitched anybody on it. You’ve not built an interest list. And so you can go spend this time on something you really think is going to be powerful and meaningful. And you spend two months in your spare time or extra time building it, and then you go to launch it and you realize, I didn’t even see this fatal flaw or I didn’t get this feedback or I didn’t do this thing.
I think that’s where a lot of small teams and entrepreneurs, freelancers and stuff that are delivering great value to clients, they get kind of isolated and they fall in love with their own ideas and they don’t have community to just go bounce it off of or they’re too afraid to go pitch it to some prospects or clients and get the real answer of where it’s at. And so I think that’s a common one I see.
And so I would just say, again, brain dump, get out of your head all the things you think you have to do. Let’s start go scoring them and let’s start seeing like, did this make a difference today? And I think for freelancers, a lot of times, I mean, I just saw a guy post the other day, I suffer from this, right? I’m not good at building my own list. And he said, every day, I spend a little bit of time offering something to get people on social media to join my list. And then I spend a little bit of time every day offering people on my list something to buy. And I was like, that’s so simple, right? Gosh, even I have been doing this for as long as I have. And I suffer from not doing the basics and not doing the things that are going to move the needle on a regular basis.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, again, like ringing all of the bells for me and my business, we make all of those same mistakes. And I’ve seen everybody do it. It’s interesting, we used to do an exercise with our mastermind, where we have people rate the various parts of their business, similar to some of the systems that you break down in your book. We’d have them rate red, yellow, green, based on how good are they going, right? And at the end, everybody would look at their sheet and see all this red and yellow and very little green, and it’s immediately frustrating. Like, oh my gosh, how is it so bad?
And yet, Oftentimes, they’re running six-figure, mid-six-figure businesses. They’re succeeding. They don’t necessarily even have employees at this point. They’re running a successful business, and yet everything is still broken. I think this is something that we all experience. One of the things that as I was going through your book, became really helpful is to start breaking out where am I in strategy and what do I need to start thinking about a little bit differently? So as we think about those kinds of businesses and how we’re all broken in different ways, can you step through those six levers and just give us a sense of what we should be thinking about with each one? Like what are the one or two hot buttons, the most important things to have right or to be working on getting right?
Josh Long: One bit of encouragement for anybody that’s got those bloody sheets of red things that are broken, but you’re still making money. It means that you’re delivering something of real value. Because you found a market fit, right? You found a product market fit, as they would say that, despite not having all these other fundamentals, you’re still finding people that get value from you. So that’s, that’s the goal, right? That’s the real metric is, Am I delivering value? Am I getting rewarded for the value I deliver? And am I able to do that in a consistent way that pays my bills and makes me have the lifestyle that I want?
And so going through the six levers—I start with strategy because that really encapsulates what Peter Drucker would say is innovation and marketing that innovation, right? He thinks that that is the backbone of all business. Everything else is a cost. Because you have to create an innovation, you have to come up with some kind of offer. And you have to be able to communicate that offer in a way to a target audience that is compelling, that gets them to take action.
As copywriters, you guys all get that. But a lot of businesses still lose sight of that. And so what I did was I walked through the strategy of how are you differentiating from your competitors? What are the factors? And one thing that I really loved was the Blue Ocean Strategy book. And I actually got permission from them to republish some of their content in my book and walk through how I walk my clients through looking at their value curve, looking at their competition, looking at what they differentiate on. And their four factors are: What are you going to raise or create? What are you going to reduce or eliminate?
I think especially new entrepreneurs, we tend to overcomplicate things. We add way too many features. We add way too many details. We add way too much complexity that isn’t going to move the needle. And so Perry and I, we walked through this in our advanced mastery network program of, How do we proposition simplify? That’s something from Richard Koch that is not in my book, but it all fits under the strategy umbrella of as a proposition simplifier, what are you doing to add significantly more value and ease and you’re able to charge moderately more price for it? For example a proposition simplifier… I just keep coming back to the iPad. It was such an easy tool to use, and yet they charge an arm and a leg for them, right? And we don’t have to go into hardware manufacturing and all that because it’s really complex, but what can you do on the service side?
I had a client years ago as an orthodontist, who hired me to overhaul his sales process. And I went and I made these presentation books of before and after teeth for kids. And I missed an opportunity to simplify his experience more by just ordering a hundred of them to sit in his office. I made him, I designed him, and then I gave it to his office staff to order. And I gave him the link and it was like, all I had to do was just buy them for him. And it would have made the experience that much more enjoyable. So that’s looking at the strategy, like how do we make it smoother? How do we make it easier? How do we make it more valuable, especially the perceived value? and how do we differentiate? So that’s what I cover in strategy.
Next, we move to marketing, and that’s what most small business owners think they need more than anything, because out of the gate, we need clients. Without clients, there is no business. But as you grow, marketing is no longer the main bottleneck. Other things show up, and we’ll get to those later. But when you start with marketing, the biggest thing I focus on is where is your most consistent source of quality leads coming from and how can you expand that further? And so I talk about traffic pillars like the Parthenon or Greek or Roman architecture. They have pillars that are part of their buildings that have stood thousands of years, fires, earthquakes, wars. They’re still standing to this day. And so, how can we view your traffic sources as pillars?
Now, out of the gate, you may have some referrals, you may have a Facebook post that went viral, or something that generates a little bit, but then they kind of die down. And it’s like, okay, well, those worked, how can you beef them up a little bit? How can you turn them into more of a pillar? And getting into the fundamentals of like, how many, your funnel, right? Like, how many leads are coming in? How many conversations are you having? How many proposals are you giving? How many are you closing? And just getting an average for that.
And of course, it’s like sales team management or marketing team management. But on a one or two person team basis, you’re still going to have a rhythm, you’re still going to have a pattern of how many people are you talking to? What’s your workload? How many clients? How often does your average client last?
And you may be like me where it’s, I call it bimodal, right? A nerdy statistical statement, but my clients are bimodal. They either last three to five months, because either we fixed it or most often we got something deeper and they got frustrated and they tapped out or they last forever. Like that’s kind of how my clients work. And so once I started realizing that it was like, okay, let’s change the engagement. Let’s just do 90 day engagements to start with just to flesh out things and see if we can build a relationship or if we’re just going to part as friends because it’s not working instead of just jumping in. And I always want to marry everybody cause I love people and I love helping and I just want to put a ring on their finger and say, let’s work together forever. But the reality is half of my clients—we run into deeper and deeper bottlenecks that they don’t want to deal with at the end of the day, or I haven’t figured out how to get them to deal with in a diplomatic way. So that’s marketing. I’ve been rambling for a while.
Rob Marsh: I feel like I feel like I’m in an MBA class learning about how to run my business. But when you talk about those people who tap out, you know, you get to that deeper problem. What’s usually going on there? Is it an inability in their business to do it? Is it more mindset related? Because I have seen the same thing. When we’ve coached people, oftentimes, we’ll go through this, we show them all the things to do, and they still aren’t getting it, and sometimes they’ll leave. Not that often, but it’s that frustration. I’ve had that experience in programs that I’ve been part of as well. I’m looking at what’s the common denominator there that makes us not get to the finish line?
Josh Long: Yeah, and that’s the last lever is mindset. And I put it at the end of the book, because 50% plus of my clients just don’t want to deal with it, don’t want to look internally, don’t want to reflect. But I think it’s the most valuable lever of all, I think it supersedes all of them. Because at the end of the day, if you’re not willing to look at your own beliefs, which drive everything, right? Like we all have subconscious beliefs and things that are running our operating system.
If you’re not willing to look and review those, then you may have a chronic issue that maybe you’re a yeller. Maybe you just, you get to a point and you just start yelling at your staff. And that’s the only way you feel that they’re going to listen to you. And it’s like, well, you’re going to just run the healthy people away because healthy people don’t put up with yellers, only traumatized, dysfunctional people put up with yellers, right? And so you’re just going to end up with this semi-retarded version of an organization where you’re there And your only way to lead is yelling. And the only people that’ll stick around are the ones that were abused by yelling growing up. And you guys have this really twisted relationship, right? And so that’s, that’s really what’s happening at the end of the day is every business grows to the limit of the owner. That’s it. And so unless that owner is willing to look internally and level up and deal with their own stuff, we’re just going to end up at an impasse.
I had a client, I parted ways with a year ago—they were afraid of hiring. They’d had a couple of bad hires. And so they made this 85 deck slide PowerPoint process of hiring. And I’m really good at recruiting. And I can talk to some an applicant, I can create a great ad, I can look at the review, the applicants, I can get to the top five, interview each of them for five minutes, and I can pick out the best one. All in 25 minutes, right? I’ve been doing it for years.
Their marketing was working so well, their support team was running into limitations. And I was like, we need more support. And the owner was just so afraid that I was gonna break something and hire somebody bad. And so we ended up recruiting the person. It was a great hire, but the owner kept fighting me the whole time on my process. And it was because he had some kind of trauma around hiring, having a bad hire. And, and it was just indicative of all these other things that we weren’t willing to get on the same page.
And so I was like, I like you guys, you guys have a great company. But it’s not a fit for me. And I parted ways. That’s a simple example. They just didn’t trust me at the end of the day to deliver a quality candidate, even though I did. And that person’s still there and they’re thrilled with them. And, but the owner even fought and he said, this guy’s overqualified. He’s not going to last. I’m like, I don’t know how to help you. You keep fighting me. Does that resonate?
Rob Marsh: It definitely does. I can think of all kinds of little hang ups like that. You kind of touched on it early on when we started talking, but a lot of copywriters are afraid to go out and pitch for clients because basically it means they’re going to, they want to fill up the day with work, but then it also means, oh, now I’ve got to deliver. Right. And so if you can shoot yourself in the foot on pitching and not do it well, you can sort of limit the downsides of doing the work. That becomes a self-sabotage pattern.
Josh Long: Yep. I see that in every industry, every skill set, whether it’s web designers, graphic designers, copywriters, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Once you start hitting your upper limit of, I’m making enough money, I’m working with enough good clients… This is where I think Dan Kennedy did it so well. Instead of sabotaging yourself subconsciously, and pushing away the ones that you just don’t really want to work with, make the waitlist long and just start raising your pricing.
But then guess what? Now you’ve got to look at your perceived self worth. How worthy are you of earning what you earn versus what you deserve. I’ve got a great case study of a guy who does mineral analysis for health stuff—hair mineral tests—and he was only charging like three or $400 for this test, a huge analysis, and a game plan for rebalancing your minerals.
And I was like, how’s that going? He says, I just got people that don’t show up to calls. I got people that complain. I told him to triple his pricing. This is one of those classic cases where you’re just attracting the wrong audience because your price is so low. And I had a call with him a month ago, and he was probably doing like 60, 70 grand a year, frustrating clients. I said, well, what’d you do last year? He says, 300 plus. And I’m like, and what were the clients like? He says, I loved everyone. But he had to work through that belief system. So that’s the other part that once you start digging, you realize, mindset is the ultimate bottleneck because yes, I’m self sabotaging as Rob said, but then. Okay. I’ll make a wait list. I’ll only cherry pick. I’ll make clients have to jump through hoops and then I’ll charge more. It’s like, Oh no, I can’t. My dad will think I’m ripping people off if I charge more or whatever the belief comes out. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s all tied to that stuff.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, there’s so many ways we sabotage ourselves in business. Okay, so after marketing, the next lever is management. And I can see applications here with the big C applications with a big team, plus personal management, you know, and with freelancers, oftentimes, the worst of our employees is ourselves.
Josh Long: Well in this case, I would look at client management, because you’ve got people on a team that you’re having to deal with now. And it’s a difficult dynamic, because you don’t have the authority to fire them, push them around, set deadlines, or whatever. But you have all the responsibility for delivery, right? And so you end up in this imbalance, right? You don’t have equal parts authority and responsibility. And so as freelancers, when you end up in that spot, it can feel like purgatory. It’s not quite hell, but it’s definitely you’re stuck. And so the way that I work through that on the management side is whoever hires you starts having conversations about that authority discussion and about the feedback loop, right?
I had this client years ago, they were doing a big project for Starbucks, and they were manufacturing trailer units that were going to go into Walmart parking lots for a Starbucks. They were just dropping them as a drive-thru Starbucks in a parking lot. And Starbucks loved the idea, and my client had manufactured all sorts of stuff like that before, but Starbucks kept delaying signing the contract. And I told my client, I said, Every week that they delay, you have to push your delivery out. That has to be in the contract. It’s like, no, no, it’s a two, two and a half million dollar project. Starbucks won’t do that. I’m like, you’re just getting pinched. You’re just getting pinched. You’re just going to end up squeezed so bad. And sure enough, they did and they got pinched and it was a mess and they still pulled it off, but they were way more stressed out than they needed to be because when they made the proposal, it was based on a six month timeline. And when they got the contract signed, they had three and a half months and couldn’t move until they got the contract signed because you never know, the company may bail.
So when you get started with a company, let that hiring person, whether it’s the owner or marketing director or whoever is in charge, if you’re not reporting directly to them or dealing with them on a day-to-day basis, say, hey, what I found is when I work with teams like yours, a lot of times the team views my requests as nice to haves, not deadlines or ultimatums. And so would you be up for letting them know, hey, this person needs responses within 24 hours, because I can’t guarantee any kind of consistent delivery if I’m not able to get feedback or copy reviews or input or graphics or whatever, and just start setting that management expectation.
This is what I call management by agreements. And with most professionals, this is really, really simple because nobody’s going to disagree with your requests. Nobody’s unreasonable. But by making that request, then if it’s not heated, if they’re not complied with, then you can go back sooner and say, hey, hiring person, you know, I’ve been having this issue. I’m not trying to get them in trouble, but it’s making delays. It’s putting things off. It’s slowing down. And I don’t want to have this come back to bite us. And I know that may not feel like a comfortable thing to go do to have that confrontation. But by having that little discussion early, that makes that confrontation, that resolution so much easier. And I think under management, I talked, I wrote a whole chapter on confrontation, because I realized like, that’s such a huge skill. And I was so bad at it. And my family, we were all so bad or just passive aggressive people pleasers. And Like there was just no modeling of healthy confrontation in my family. So I realized like the most successful people I knew were comfortable and good at confrontation. And so to me, the confrontation isn’t to beat somebody up or to get mad at them or Lord, anything over them. It’s just saying, Hey, there’s a dysfunction in our dynamic and I just want to heal it. I want to make it better. I want to resolve it. And so when you have that conversation upfront and then. are able to go back and say, hey, this wasn’t maintained. How do we make this right? And that’s it. And then people make it right.
Rob Marsh: I think even the word confrontation has that negative connotation to it. So we want to avoid it. And really what we’re trying to do here is just set healthy boundaries, get, like you said, the agreements so that we can move forward.
Josh Long: Yep. So that’s management. And it really is a four letter word for most small business owners. They think it means bureaucracy and or they’ll say micromanagement. And that’s not it at all. It’s just keeping communication priorities and organization together so that we can achieve something worthwhile.
Then from there, we get into systems. And this is where a lot of people, especially right now with AI, that they over focus. And I would say systems, and I wrote about it in the book, I titled the chapter, delegate, document, then automate, and really, it should be in parentheses, maybe, like, Automation is not guaranteed. Most people do not need automation in most systems. But you need to document it. And I said delegate at first because most entrepreneurs aren’t good at documenting. But if you’re a one-man person, one-man crew, then you’re going to have to document some things. And you may go to Upwork and find somebody that’s really good at documentation that you talk it out with and get them to just document it, create it, and then be done with it. But it really is just getting it out of your head and just getting it down on paper of how you do things.
The beauty is when you do this, especially with client fulfillment related items, you can then turn that into a little document to show clients, Hey, when you work with us, here’s what our process is going to be like. Here’s how we’re going to have a kickoff call. Here’s what our deliverables are going to be. And that becomes a great sales tool that helps that prospect see, oh, they’ve really got this thought thought out, they’re really professional, I have a lot of certainty, about 60% of the US population has a personality profile, where they crave certainty, they crave structure, they love rules, they love checklists. And so 60% chance that the person you’re dealing with wants to see that document, wants to see that checklist. And so if you create it of how we fulfill people, and then you’ve got it in a way that you can share it with prospects before they’re closing, you’re providing a whole lot of certainty in the process.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I mean, this is one place where I think freelancers very quickly figure out, wait a second, if I don’t figure out a system here, there’s no way I can grow. Even getting six figures becomes a really difficult goal. If you’re making things up every single time you have to do something, you’re starting over and working from scratch. So this is one we talk about a lot. I’m a full believer. I’m terrible at systems myself. But I’m a big believer in having somebody on the team who can do it.
Josh Long: Yeah. And so from systems, then we move into vision and vision really comes down to what do you actually want out of this business, this career, this occupation that you’ve got. And I, I find a lot of business owners start with a vision of one thing, but after 10 or 15 years, they’re way over here, just grinding it out with no concept of, What is this doing to serve my needs? And I think entrepreneurship is the greatest gift to humanity. I think it has created everything that we love and live with and all the abundance that we have in our society. And I think the number one purpose of any business or occupation or career is to serve the lifestyle we want to create. And there’s a lot of other benefits we get from it from fulfillment and working out our gifts.
At the end of the day, if you’re not getting the lifestyle you want, you’re missing the boat because you’re creating your own reality. You create the rules, you create the rules of engagement, you create the rules of delivery. All of it is made up by you. You may say, Oh, well, this is my industry standard. I’m just following that. It’s like, well, people break it all the time. People create different rules of engagement all the time. And so if, if you’re not actively thinking about the lifestyle that you’re creating, then you’re missing the boat. And for me, as a freelancer, as a consultant, I always said I wanted to have as much time, freedom and flexibility as possible. I want as much autonomy as possible. And that’s just something that I value in my life. And we homeschool our kids. I work from home or around each other all the time. But we love it. And that was important to me. I want to be able to work wherever I want.
And so since 2011, I’ve been working from home. And we have a lot of flexibility. So we take road trips off peak a lot, because again, we’re homeschooling, so we can take our kids whenever we want. And we were able to move to Hawaii for two years from 2018 to 2020. Because we don’t have to worry about school districts or we could stay in Airbnbs and we could figure out until we had some stable housing. And so that’s something that’s really important to me. I told a buddy of mine, we’d both worked for Chet and he went on to work at a bunch of other companies and he was climbing the ladder and he would call me on his commutes in the morning in SoCal for an hour. And I said to him one day, I said, you know, I realized I’d rather make 50 grand a year and have all the time freedom in the world than make 500 grand a year and have no time. And in 2016, we were having dinner down in Orange County, and he said, you win. I’m like, what are you talking about? He says, I’m making 500 grand a year, and I’m miserable. And I said, well, thankfully, I’m making more than 50 grand a year. And he ended up quitting his job a couple weeks later, because he was commuting from Orange County to Dallas for two weeks a month, and just had no time. That’s miserable. So that’s the vision of like, what is it you actually want?
Rob Marsh: So, and is vision always about like the business owner or does it also go into like the rest of the business? If I am building a team, do I need a vision for what they’re doing as well in addition to, you know, what I’m building for myself?
Josh Long: I think that gets more into the strategy of the business, like early on, what are we building here? Why are we building it? What does the team look like? The vision in the book is really just for the owner, because good owners end up being too self-sacrificing, too altruistic, putting everybody else’s needs before their own, and never really think about, well, what am I actually getting out of this business?
Rob Marsh: And then we talked a little bit about mindset already, but is there anything you would add to it?
Josh Long: Yeah, I mean, mindset, like I said, is more valuable than all the others. And it’s a journey, right? It’s not something that’s fast. It’s not something that’s a quick fix. But to me, it’s where all the gold in the world lies of removing the limiting beliefs and the little emotional traumas, and you may have big emotional traumas. There may be things driving your operating system that you don’t know are there that are creating a lot of conflict. And so like some for me early on that I got through with coaching was, you Like, I grew up in a Christian church and a household, and I had a distorted view that money was like manna, like the Israelites in the desert, that it would come from the skies, and if they tried storing it up, it would spoil. Somehow, that was embedded in me. Even though logically, I was like, no, we need to save, you need to build wealth, blah, blah, blah. I did financial planning for people with my mortgage brokerage. But I had a belief that money was like manna.
So guess what? I never had savings. It would always show up the day before I’d need it. I’d have a $3,000 tax bill. Lo and behold, the day before it was due, money would show up. And it’s like, well, gosh, that’s a really stressful way to live. It’s a really dysfunctional belief. And I had to clear that and remove that. And lo and behold, savings starts building all of a sudden. So that’s the kind of stuff for me that has been so fascinating to watch in my own journey get worked out. And the beauty of working through your mindset stuff with your business is that it ripples out to every other part of your life, right? It doesn’t just have an effect on your ability to make money or your ability to lead, but it also makes all of your life more rich and more fulfilling because you’re not, you’re not fighting against yourself internally.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. I want to come back to an idea that I think we talked about a little bit earlier, which is around mentorship and being ready or knowing that you’re ready for that coach, that person that you can connect with. I think a lot of times we don’t realize that we’re ready until well past when we actually needed to look for a mentor. We should have been working with, and this is especially true, I think, with mindset. but probably with all of the things that we’re talking about here. Have you, as you work with so many different businesses, do you have a framework for identifying like, okay, this is the problem that I’m starting to see show up now. I need to start looking for a mentor to help me with this, or where you can look at people and say, oh yeah, you’re definitely ready for this kind of a mentor. How do we know when we should be looking for that stuff?
Josh Long: Yeah, I think like I’m much more open to people finding their own way and not scaring everybody into, you need a mentor yesterday. But the thing that I will say that every client has that makes them a great spot for me is they’ve run into the same issue multiple times, haven’t been able to get past it, and now they’re really ready to get the help to solve it. As entrepreneurs, we have egos, right? We want to prove ourselves to the world. We’re always in that state of trying to show that we’re good enough and that we’re worthy in some capacity. Some of us have it more than others, but what that does is it causes us to hold on to our rightness, our belief that we know where we’re going, we know we’re on the right path.
If you’re in that state and you’re like, no, I’m going to prove it, I’m right, this is going to be it, then you’re definitely not in a spot to be coached because you’re just going to argue with that coach or you’re going to undermine their advice or you’re going to subconsciously push back against them. If you’re in a spot where you’re like, you know, I thought I knew what I was doing was going to work, but I keep bumping my head into the same wall. Maybe there is a better way. Like that’s the beginning of being ready for a coach.
And I got a good buddy. He had a software company that was developing in a language called Python and he started it around 2009 and had quick success. And, um, or maybe it was 2007, but he had quick success and he got up to about 1.8 million in about three years. And he thought he was the next Steve jobs. He just, there was no way to tell him otherwise. And I had, I had helped him. We’d become friends, but we just both butted heads. We were both young and dumb. And I left. And then a few years later, we reconciled, and he was still at 1.8 million. And he finally admitted, Oh, yeah, I don’t know what I’m doing. I need help. And so that’s the hard part of early success can give us a lot of false confidence. And early success is almost like a curse for some people, because that means that they’re just not going to be open to input, or they just think they’ve got it figured out. So I don’t know if that answers your question. I think it’s more of the mindset of, are you ready to change? And it’s not at whatever cost. It’s not like you’re going to become a completely different person, but you have to be in that coachable state and not feel like you’re just going to try to argue with somebody that’s coming in to give you guidance.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. So I want to ask this because so many copywriters have dealt with a really rough last year or two where the economy’s been really different. I know you’ve seen this in other businesses too. So many people are struggling to find clients. Obviously, there are lots of different things that can get in the way of that positioning, outreach, all kinds of stuff. But just real broadly, I’d love your advice. If I’m struggling in business to find clients, what are the two or three things that I should be doing to make it more or make it easier for clients to find me or for me to be able to connect with those that I need to connect with?
Josh Long: Yeah, so it shifted. The market has been shifting for a while. 2022 is a real watershed. that when they started raising interest rates in March of 22, but then by the end of 22, around October, when the FTX crisis happened, and then a bunch of layoffs at big tech companies started happening. I mean, Amazon froze budgets. I was dealing with a division of Amazon at that time for a client. Like they just came back and said, budgets are frozen. And so last year, in early 2023, with this one client, they were working with big companies. And I said, you got to change your target audience of who you’re going after.
Now, this isn’t the full advice, but this shows the shift that I’ve been seeing. And I said, you guys are going after all these tech companies. And like, I said, go after basic companies like Procter and Gamble, or 3M, stable companies. And I ended up procuring a relationship with Nestle with them, like, just giant companies that are stable, not going anywhere. The next day, Silicon Valley Bank went under. Silicon Valley Bank was a prospect of theirs I spoke to in November of 22. So I was like, I had no idea that I was that on point that the market was shifting that hard for them. But what happened through the first half of 2023, in just about all industries was the shockwave went through the market and a lot of prospects just sat and they got skittish and they got hesitant.
And so the advice I’ve been telling everybody since then is you have to completely change your offers, not that you no longer are a copywriter, just change the packages. Start playing with smaller packages, foot-in-the-door type offers, things that allow you to earn trust and build a relationship because the market is skittish and people are knowing they need to just sit on cash and they need to improve their cash reserves and they need to improve their cash positions. And so that’s a hard thing because in the small business world, the first expense that is cut when an entrepreneur feels tight is marketing. It’s the stupidest thing. It makes no sense. You can’t, you can’t logic them out of this. It’s just a protection mechanism. It’s like, it’s like marketing is their limbs and everything else is their torso. And they just go like this to protect themselves. They don’t want to get hit. They don’t want to get stabbed, whatever. They don’t want to bleed out.
So then, you have to make smaller and easier, foot-in-the-door offers, I call them, things that are like, hey, you know what? Let me go through your email list and let me see what your email looks like and what your open rates are. Let’s do three emails. I’ll do them for $500 or $1,000. Let’s see if I can increase your open rates. Let’s experiment with that. um and and then you’re they’re like oh wow that worked really well well what else can you do right like that’s the goal of trying to um get that foot in the door and so i would go back to everybody you’ve given a proposal to everybody you’ve worked with over the last two to three years and just go back and start making a new offer of like hey um i know things are tight i know i know things can feel skittish i’d love to come in and really make it easy for you to get a quick result and see if that works. How does that resonate, Rob?
Rob Marsh: It definitely resonates. It also couples really well with what you were saying earlier about making things easier for clients. You know, if you are able to take on, you know, managing that email list so that you’re taking something off, off of their plate, or you’re able to take something and make something else easy for them. Now there’s a reason to keep you around, right? You’re, you’re adding value and helping them find time so that they can, you know, fulfill the vision, all that stuff.
Josh Long: I’ve got a client, she’s got a great company, and she’s been doing Facebook ads and email management. And she just told me the other day, she’s like, and she’s like a million and a half pushing 2 million. And she’s like, I think I’m just going to stop email marketing and just focus on Facebook ads because they’re working so well. And I’m like, no, just go find a copywriter that’s going to manage your email list. Like, but she just was so overwhelmed and hadn’t thought about it. And she’s just coming out of like stages of overwhelm. Um, and she told me the other day, she’s like, yep, I found a copywriter. It’s been going great. Thanks. That was the right advice. So you guys as copywriters can look for those situations of where’s the, where’s the heavy lifting that it’s getting neglected or somebody is resenting it, that I can come in and just take that over and maybe expands your scope a little bit beyond what you’re used to. Um, but it adds a ton of value and then you’re embedded and you’re not, you’re not going to go anywhere. You’ve got more stable client relationships.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, 100%. Okay, Josh, I really appreciate the hour you spent chatting. You know I’m a fan of the book, but if anybody is new to you, your world, the Breakthrough Bottleneck world, where should they go to find out more, get their hands on the book?
Josh Long: Yeah. So the book’s available everywhere. You can get it on Kindle, Amazon, audible. I did the audible for it a few years ago. Some guys, I was at a conference speaking and they’re like, we only listen to audiobooks cause they’re all out in the field. They’ve got home service businesses. I was like, Oh, you’re the first guys that are actually successful business owners that tell me they only listen to books. So I got it done.
But bottleneck breakthrough.com is my site. I’ve got great resources there. I’ve got a new guide I just put together on, um, how to double your close rate and using some cool tools that I like that really help filter and make your prospecting and your conversations with prospects a lot easier.
So you can get that at bottleneckbreakthrough.com. And I’m on Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter.
I need to build out my Twitter more. Um, I’m enjoying that more and more, over the last year as it’s been less censored. But yeah, those are the great places to find me. Feel free to connect with me on any of those platforms and, um, feel free to reach out if you need some, some kind of guidance or some feedback on the book that you need more clarity on.
I think it was Juliet. I can’t remember. Is it Peavy? Is that her last name? Yeah. So she was the one that kind of gave it away that you guys were giving my book away on LinkedIn. So she had tagged me and we’ve had a number of great conversations on LinkedIn. So yeah, I’m stoked, Rob, that the book’s been valuable for you guys.
Rob Marsh: It’s funny, this is not the first book that we’ve given away, but it’s easily the one that’s talked about the most. And there’s a couple that really resonate, but this one I think has been number one. I mean, again, when I found it, I went through it, I’m like, every chapter, I’m like, oh, there’s yet another thing that I can be working on and improving. And even as I was prepping just to chat this morning, looking at it, I’m like, ah, I need to go through this again.
Josh Long: Thanks. That was my goal. I always said most books aren’t worth reading, fewer worth finishing. And the ones that are worth finishing, like I want them to get to manual level status, like where you pull them out every year or two. And that was the goal when I wrote the book was that it would be useful for small business owners to just go back to over and over and get something new from it and be implementable forever.
Rob Marsh: I think it’s there. Definitely belongs in every copywriter, every freelancer, contract worker. If you’re working on your own, it’s definitely a great resource to have. So thanks. Thanks, Josh, for your time.
Josh Long: Thanks, man. This is so fun.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of my interview with Josh Long. Before I go any farther, as a business owner, you really should have his book, Bottleneck Breakthrough, on your shelf. You’re going to turn to it again and again as you hit different bottlenecks and challenges in your business. Just go ahead and get that now. We’ll link to it in the show notes, but of course you can find it wherever books are sold. I want to echo an idea or two that Josh shared as we talked.
Right there at the end, as we wrapped, Josh was talking about what he’s seen take place over the last couple of years in the economy and with business spending and marketing spending. I think he hits the bullseye with his analysis. Companies and people are gun shy when it comes to spending and businesses are especially hesitant to spend on marketing. And that trickles down to copywriters and to content and the kind of work that we do. So coming up with new ways to make your offers easier to try, easier to say yes to, that’s exactly the right strategy. If you struggle to find clients, you’re going to want to give this tactic a try. Make your offer smaller, make the value more obvious, give your clients a better experience, and then go back to them for more and more.
Near the beginning of the interview, Josh mentioned the two kinds of entrepreneurs, those that jump right in and figure things out and those who have a mentor for a while and grow their skills and connections with the help of others before jumping in to start their business. I agree that both paths are viable. But given all we’ve said today about mentors, how they help, even if you’re in the jump in and figure it out path, a mentor can still help make things easier.
You may need to stumble or hit a bottleneck before you’re ready to ask for help, but you don’t have to wait for that.
That’s why we created the Copywriter Underground and the other programs that we offer. We’re here to help with mentorship when you need it. But like Josh said, we’re not trying to force anyone in. If you’re not ready, it’s not going to do you much good anyway. But if you are ready, if you are one of those people who doesn’t want to go it alone or would like that expert help, check out thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU.
That’s definitely for you. I want to thank Josh again for joining us to chat about his business and about his book. I highly recommend you follow him wherever you find yourself online, whether that’s on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you want to look him up, bottleneckbreakthrough.com. Josh is just someone who’s worth following and seeing how he thinks about business and the challenges we face.
Success in business isn’t easy. But finding success requires you to do things you may not love—like creating relationships with potential customers daily, working on your business (not your client’s) every day, or even going all in on a daily writing habit. In the 383rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob spoke with copyhackers Joanna Wiebe who says these (and several other daily activities) are her non-negotiables. They happen every day—no matter what. If creating your own daily non-negotiable is all you get out of this episode, it will be well worth your time, but there is so much more. So check it out…
Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Rob Marsh: It’s been more than seven years since we last chatted with today’s guest on the podcast. In the meantime, she just keeps growing her business. This time around we asked her about the ins and outs of working with family members, building authority, and doing what she calls the daily non-negotiables.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of CopyHackers Joanna Wiebe.
Many of you know that Kira and I met in one of Jo’s programs. So we owe a lot to her. But just as importantly, Joanna is one of those online personalities who is just plain generous with her help and advice. And that’s likely a big part of why she’s been so successful.
As usual, we think you’re going to want to stick around for this one.
But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve told you about the benefits you get as a member. We’ve been working hard on how to make The Underground even more useful and helpful to the copywriters and content writers who are members… if you listened to last week’s episode with Csaba Borzasi, you heard him mention the scorecard he uses to close 100% of his prospects on sales calls. We didn’t have a lot of time to discuss what the scorecard includes or how he uses it, but Csaba agreed to share all of that with the members of The Copywriter Underground. That presentation happens later this week and will be available in the Underground for a limited time. If you’d like to learn how to close 100% of your prospects on sales calls—by the way, that’s not a guarantee, but you will see how Csaba does it—you need to be IN the copywriter underground, which you can do by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And Csaba’s presentation isn’t the only upcoming exclusive we’ll be adding in the underground. We’ll have more to tell you about in the coming weeks. thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.
Now to our interview with Jo…
Kira Hug: All right, I’m gonna kick this off. You know, we’re kicking off 2024, feeling mostly good so far, right? But when we look back at 2023, it’s hard to not avoid the mammoth changes that took place in the writing space and the impact on the writers that we all know, and how difficult it was for many writers. Not all writers, some writers had great years, but for many, they struggled. And so, I would love to hear from you and your perspective on just like what are these shifts that you saw and what is working today that we should pay attention to in the writers that are more successful?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah.
Rob Marsh: That’ll only take an hour to answer.
Kira Hug: I can’t ask that in the last 10 minutes.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll just let you go for an hour. We’ll end the episode and we’ll just have you come back another time for everybody else’s questions.
Kira Hug: We have you for the next four hours, right?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to hear what y’all have to say about this too. I can say my take. I know 2023 started off super scary for everybody, right? I mean, 2022, November, December was when people started flipping because of chat GPT. What was so funny, wasn’t it funny? I was watching, I think it was John Oliver, his HBO show he does once a Sunday, whatever it’s called. And they were talking about AI. And they were cutting to clips of this expert on AI who was saying what was going to change. And he’s like, so this will impact copywriters and lawyers. And the second he said it, I was like, OK, wait. Suddenly, people know what copywriting is?
For all of these years, no one’s had a clue what we do. And suddenly, it’s all like, everybody knows what we do. And this is going to be replaced. So I was annoyed by that. But I think that kind of set the tone, like hearing those sorts of things set the tone for a lot of people. And I get it. It was like, It was a get on board, you know, befriend the bear before it eats you and then be a slave to the bear, which is scary and no one wants to do that. Writers already feel so insecure. Everybody already thought they could do our job. So to have this extra layer of like, oh, no, really, you don’t have a job anymore. I know it turned off a lot of people who were already kind of spazzing because COVID had hurt everybody so badly, right? Like you’re in mental recovery from COVID, then this news that your job is being taken away. And then everybody who’s been working for software companies, sees all of those layoffs.
So yeah, super tough year. And I think that it’s one of those years for me where I’m like, yeah, some people didn’t make it through. And God bless them and everybody who did make it through God bless us all. Because it’s tough. It’s obviously a tough go like that, simplifying it dramatically. The people who stayed are what I’m seeing at least are the people who’ve stayed and been successful about it. We’re never doing the work that AI does. Anyway, they like, and by that, I don’t I mean, I think what we’ve seen is AI can take your research and help you analyze it. So that’s good using it as an assistant, which we’ve all heard, but like, so few people actually do, you know, use chat GPT as their or whatever tool, you can say Jasper, but everybody just uses chat GPT. So yeah, it’s those who are able to, use it to make their work better and not be scared or intimidated by it. But that was really hard to come by, right? Like even saying that now, I know people are going to hear that and go like, sure. Like, oh, brother, it’s so easy for you to say, just use it. But what if I’m a junior copywriter? Like a junior copywriter who doesn’t know how to do what even chat GPT can do.
So those are the ones who, it’s hard to admit it, but if you were junior and you didn’t take this job very seriously, if you conflate content and copy, you probably had a really hard year and were thinking about leaving or you left. And so the ones that fit the question are like, what’s working for those who stuck it out and are surviving now and are seeing their businesses grow. Like the people I’m seeing businesses, freelancing services, taking off in ways that we didn’t before and so like it’s just to me it’s like it’s the staying power one take your craft seriously so seriously that it’s a no-brainer that I should hire you even if you use AI even if my company uses AI anybody who uses AI knows like wait is this good? Am I allowed to use this? Is this accurate? Is this even right? So if you took your job seriously and you took AI, seriously, not as a threat, but as an opportunity, and you stayed the course, those seem to be the people who are succeeding.
I know it feels like a place of privilege to say that, right? Like, how do you stay the course if you’re not making money? How do you take the job seriously if you’re still really new at learning it, and juniors aren’t getting the same level of employment that more strategic, senior, conversion focused, or even just brand and creative and like big picture thinking focused copywriters are able to make. But I would say those things. Take the job seriously. Take AI seriously. Stick around. That’s what I saw working.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think that’s all smart. And I’m not disagreeing with you at all, but to me, AI feels like it was a smaller threat than the economy overall, especially in the SaaS and tech space where there were so many layoffs. There were so many changes in marketing budgets. And while, of course, AI has had an impact just like you described, I think that AI is getting blamed for a lot of the other stuff that’s happening in marketing.
The other thing, and we haven’t necessarily talked about this, but something that’s happened over the last year, I’m sure you’ve seen it—everybody I know has seen it—our inboxes are flooded with the offers, I can find you 30 different potential calls… clients… whatever. I’ve helped somebody add $40,000 a month to their job. And because that outreach thing has happened (and a big part of that is AI too) I think the way that we have traditionally done outreach and found clients and direct messaged, that kind of stuff has slowed way down as impactful as well. And so it feels like, it’s AI’s fault, but a lot of it’s just the economy and the way people are marketing, too. I don’t know. We could have an argument about this.
Kira Hug: Let’s just blame AI. Let’s just blame it. Use AI as a punching bag. It’s more fun.
Joanna Wiebe: I like having a villain. A villain is good and identifiable. Yes. So I hear you. So for me, the economy, yes, it’s been hurting a lot of people. Then there’s the other side of like, you know, what’s really going on with layoffs? Is it just like a really good chance to scale back on, you know, there’s an NPR show about this, people talk about this, the possibility that the layoffs are like, well, I have a bloated team, and it’s hard for me to get rid of them. But if the economy is bad, and if Salesforce just laid off 10% of their staff, then I can lay off 10% of mine too. And, and it’s not like, it’s not that it’s not real, because the economy is, it’s hard, right? You’re, there’s not enough money out there for the things that we used to have a lot of money for.
What I have seen as a trigger for people reaching out to me for training or for copy chiefing for their team, like come in on retainer or, hey, I need a project done. The trigger is often when a person joins the company as VP of marketing or CMO. So it’s a new hire at an organization where they’re up at a new tier for their role. They look around their team and go, nobody has any copywriting expertise here. So they have this new team, new goals, their own pressure to perform in a bad economy. And they’re reaching out to say, hey, how do you get, how can you help me with my team? Or can you come write this thing for me?
So for me, that trigger hasn’t gone away. People are still going into new roles. We’re still getting new VPs marketing. new product marketing leads, people who have moved up through the ranks, are still reaching out. So I think if your job has been, hey, I’m going to do cold outreach to get clients or I’m going to reach out on LinkedIn or whatever that is, I mean, I’ve never been a fan of that. I’ve always been like, no, people should reach out to you. So to get them to reach out to you, you are an authority.
So a VP of marketing has to know your name in some way. And people get really freaked out about that. How do I become an authority, though? And it’s like, what are you doing right now? What are you doing at this exact moment right now? They’re complaining. Well, how about instead of that, you outline the book? Because you can self-publish a book today. April Dunford self-published, obviously awesome, and has built a multimillion dollar consulting business off this. It doesn’t have to be as hard as you think. And it might be, this is going to be annoying to a lot of people to hear, but it might be kind of the best time ever to put your authority on the page, to use AI to help you generate an outline for this book you’re going to write. write the book, self-publish it, become an authority in this space, instead of wondering, where did all the clients go? Because there are new VPs of marketing who do look around and have teams that need help. And they’re like, we need our onboarding emails done right now. We needed them yesterday.
We’ve had 15-year-old onboarding emails going out. These are real things that are constantly happening. But they’re not going to reach out to you if they don’t know who you are. And they’re not going to answer your cold outreach thing. Because again, like you said, Rob, they’re already flooded with crappy stuff in their inbox. So the answer sadly feels like it’s the same answer as ever. Make people come to you by being an authority, an unreplaceable, irreplaceable authority on X thing in copywriting. You know? Like, Summer had her best year ever last year, trying nothing. She did nothing. But Summer’s the email person now, and so people line up to work with her. Is that too simplified? I always feel like I’m oversimplifying, but it really does always come down to just write a book, just write a stinking book already.
Kira Hug: I think writing a book has been on my list for multiple years, and I’ve shared it on this podcast, and I fail every year. And I’m like, this is the year. But for some people who are like, cool, I’m going to write that book. But in the meantime, I need clients today. What could I do to build my authority this month that I can ship this month that’s working today that maybe wasn’t working a year ago?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, do a hard thing. So I have in my calendar every morning from 9 to 10, I have a block that says do hard things you hate doing and some days I delete that block but other days I do the hard thing I hate doing. I’m going to tell you I was in a session, I’m in this big group coaching thing with Dan Martell. He was on a call. This is a really cool moment. We were having this group call, people ask questions, but in order to ask a question, you have to, and I’ve applied this in our Copy School Professional. So anybody who’s in copy school pro and listening, they’re like, you stole that from Dan. Yes. I stole this from Dan. In order to ask a question, you have to say, yes, I’ve been doing my five daily non-negotiables. Then you have to share the money. When five daily non-negotiables include opens—you have to reach out to five people a day to open a conversation that you can then close as a sale.
So people put up their hands and ask a question, say, yes, I’m doing the five daily non-negotiables. And then their question is, where do I get clients? And Dan says, I thought you were doing your five daily non-negotiables. People like, yeah, well, kind of. And he was getting angry on the call. He was getting visibly annoyed by everybody. And then one person, God bless her, put up her hand and had the same question. I’m struggling to get clients. Something like she was an accountant for construction companies or something like that. And Dan’s like, what did you do today? Who did you call today? And she’s like, what do you mean, who did I call?
He’s mad. He’s swearing. Everybody is so feeling so awkward for her. I’m like, she’s going to cry. She’s probably going to cry. She’s being sworn at with love in front of 300 people. And so Dan says, okay, give me the name of the person you want to reach out to, what company they’re at, and where they are. And she’s stammering. And then she says a name and the company they’re at, and they’re in Texas or something. Dan Googles it, picks up his phone, calls this person in front of everybody. He is going to make a cold call to this person in front of us, and we’re all like, What? Like, chat’s going wild. This is crazy that Dan is doing this very hard thing. He’s going to cold call for a company that’s not even his just to show that this is a hard thing that you have to do. And if you actually want to get ahead, you have to do these very hard things. Now, It went to voicemail. We were all very upset about this.
Kira Hug: Because nobody answers their phone.
Joanna Wiebe: And Dan was like, hire an assistant so that you don’t miss a potential sales call, dude from Texas. But it was at that moment, I had brand new respect for Dan. And two, a hard reality hit that we never do the hard things. We’re not going around doing hard things we’re doing. one somewhat hard thing every so often. But this is like, pick up the phone and call somebody. What if you called the CMO of Bitly? You call the CMO of Bitly, somehow find this person’s phone number. You call them and say, I think you need new emails. I want to do it for you. Do a proper sales call, though, like pitch.
Nobody else is calling. Like you’ll be the one person who’s picking up the phone and calling. You could actually land something because most people want a hustler. Most people want someone who’s going to do hard work. Then I will pay you money to do hard work. Companies still have budget to spend on us. They’re still, they have things they’re trying to get done. No one in-house, like anybody who’s a copywriter and has worked with people who are in-house, Love y’all, but there is some lacking skill out there in-house. There are full marketing teams who are being forced to write their own copy, who don’t know what they’re doing, who Google it to try to get an answer. They would love you to come in and help. Why don’t you pick up the phone? If it’s not working, try that. And if your answer is some excuse, You have to realize that it’s on you now. The results are on you. We can tell you what to do. You can know that you have to do it, but you actually have to do it. It’s hard.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. This is a favorite theme of mine. When I email about this particular thing, you’ve got to do the hard work, I get more responses back from people who say, thanks for the kick in the butt. Thank you. I needed to hear that. I’m not sure that it results in people doing the hard things, but they need to get real into it. And in a world where everybody’s saying, hey, it’s easy to add $10,000 to your monthly billings every month or whatever, it’s actually not true. Nothing that brings in money is easy. Literally nothing bringing in money is easy. But being told that you got to do it, is. So anyway, my question is, Jo, what are the five hard things you’re doing every day?
Kira Hug: Yes, I was gonna ask that.
Joanna Wiebe: Yes, I have my five daily non-negotiables and they are, for me, cause I did a dump of 25 things that I’ve been putting off doing, just as fast as I could. And then copy school professionals, students did the same thing too, to find their five daily non-negotiables. And then I categorize them in what turned out to be groups.
Dan’s non-negotiables include, you have to sweat for an hour every day. That didn’t come up as something that I need to work on because I have my own practice where I do yoga and I do like activities so I didn’t find that that was a thing that was lacking for me. The things that came up for me were around evergreen funnels that I’ve been putting off doing or optimizing. My team, do they know that they’re beloved and respected? Are they hearing good things from me and then getting more out there for content? So my five daily non-negotiables are put in my calendar to review at the end of every day if I haven’t already done them because it is a practice, it’s a habit.
Number one, comment on my daily funnel performance in Slack. So how is the freelancing school funnel doing? How is copy school doing? And how is copy school pro doing? I suck at this one, but because I feel like I’m just like throwing stuff at my team, so I have to get better at how to do that. But again, telling my team what that performance is and having a comment about it. Number two, add three short videos to our social Dropbox. That’s where my team, Nicole and Mike, then take those videos and do stuff with them. Number three, connect personally with a team member or contractor. just some quick text or outreach or something that’s just like connecting us. Number four, DM 10 followers on Instagram. I also suck at that one, but you know, I get three or five out. And number five is to add 100 words to my book project, which I am actually good at. Those are my five. Y’all need five. What would be your five?
Kira Hug: I do like a big one—hard thing—every week. That’s my goal. I respect the fact that you’re like busting out five every day. For me, it’s like, what is the big one this week? The thing that I put off for months or years and doing that. So it is something I’ve given a lot more thought recently. Like, what is that uncomfortable, deeply uncomfortable thing? Calling people, I don’t know. As a millennial, we don’t call people. So this is deeply uncomfortable. Gen X, Rob, I know you’re more comfortable with phone calls. My husband is more comfortable with phone calls. He’s like, I don’t get why you can’t just call people. So that’s something I need to work on.
Rob Marsh: If I had a dollar for every time I said that to one of my kids, I would not have to work ever again in my life. They won’t even call me. It’s ridiculous. I’ve never thought through this process, applying it to the business. Although I’m going to once we hang up, I’m going to start making a list. But I do have several hard things or non-negotiables I do. Exercise is a big one. I do it between an hour and an hour and a half a day. I do take off a day every week for rest or whatever. Reading. I’ve got time carved out—it’s basically that 75 hard thing where you read at least 10 pages a day in a book that is not fiction. It’s not a story. It’s something to either build my skills, build my knowledge, something like that. So that’s another piece. I have a spiritual practice that happens every day as well. So there’s that kind of stuff. But thinking about evergreen funnels, thinking about programs that need to be updated, or fixed. I need a list for that. These are the top 10 hard things that are next, where I just, every day I have to do one. I think that would, that would help for sure.
Kira Hug: Yeah, the video content to like, that’s, I mean, to me is such a pain to like, articulate those ideas into place, record it. And so I love that you have how many at one a day, three a day. Geez.
Joanna Wiebe: All right, Dan, I’m just gonna talk a lot about Dan Martell today, because he’s killing it. For real, though, he has one person who just follows him around with the camera.
Kira Hug: Oh, like Gary Vee.
Joanna Wiebe: Is that what Gary Vee does? It’s banal. Yes.
Rob Marsh: Because otherwise, how do you produce that much content? You can’t.
Joanna Wiebe: Every single thing he says becomes content. Everything. Oh my gosh. Wacko, right? Yeah. And these are those roles that don’t cost that much. You don’t need a professional videographer. They need to hold their iPhone up in front of you. And maybe you have one of the little mics that you put on your lapel. That’s it. You can get your nephew to follow you around. Whatever, right?
Kira Hug: One of your kids could follow you around.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, the last thing they want to do is listen to me more. That doesn’t work. When your kids get older, you’ll understand, Kyra. Your kids still like you. That’s the last thing 20-somethings want to do is hear from their dad.
Kira Hug: Okay, so I want to go back to It sounds like I’m being such a downer and I’m not trying to but I’m just trying to keep it real. And so I’m curious about a struggle you had over the last six months. Like as we’re all struggling with many different things What was something specific that you were working through and how did you work through it if you worked?
Joanna Wiebe: Oh yeah. Oh gosh. Many. So, lots of struggles. So one thing was about two years ago, I had a team member quit via a lawyer. So I had to deal with this claim that lawyers then dragged out and it was really getting to me. Like it was. just bad feelings all the time. Like, you know, when you’re getting ready in the morning or those moments when you have time alone and when you’re alone, your brain goes to, it would, sometimes it goes to productive things. Um, it wouldn’t, it would only go to this person and this fricking, what if this turns into like a proper fricking lawsuit?
Then I have to go to court and I’m gathering evidence and stuff. I’m like, this is bull. I don’t want this. And so I was so stressed about it. I actually had, at one point I had a FedEx delivery come to my door. And I had so much anxiety over having this person quit by a lawyer that I thought somebody else was quitting via a lawyer as well. And I was like being served. And so it but it wasn’t it was just like it was something I think it was my banker sent me something by FedEx. And I immediately booked a therapy session after that. I was like, hmm, I have issues. Something’s happened. And so, yeah, my therapist was like, it’s probably a form of PTSD. Don’t worry. A lot of people get PTSD for lots of things.
We had to work through that for a year before I finally said to this one lawyer I was working with, like, can we just try settling with this person? Like, it’s a thing that we haven’t tried. And I would like this to go away. Like, at this point, I would pay anything for this to just go away. Because when I should be thinking about business and opportunities, I’m thinking about this. And so then we did. And like, it was like, between us, even if this person’s listening, it was such a small amount of money for all of the pain that I had been through. So I was like, now I’m mad at lawyers, you ass, putting me through this when it could have just been solved with here. Yeah. So the resolution was really quite simple, but the, the hassle of it, the mental load of that, I know it’s not, if you don’t have a team, it’s not relatable, but think about these surprises.
It could be like a tax bill that comes out of nowhere where you’re like, where are we going to get that money from? Um, or whatever it is. But it was like this, and it just weighed on me. And meanwhile, my team is like, get me a fun video. I don’t have a fun video in me. I’m not built for this right now, but you have to keep putting on a face and continuing to show up for work, doing things you can’t just hide under your bed and wish life would be easy. You have to keep going and doing the thing. And so that was, that was a big, that was a big problem. Thank God the business was going well and I didn’t have to worry about that sort of thing. But then there’s the additional burden of, you know, like we have people in freelancing school and you’re thinking like, Gosh, it’s hard for everybody out there now. And I realize I’m not showing up as well as I could because I’m stressing. So I’m not putting things out there that could help students and non-students actually get ahead of this really difficult time in a copywriter’s life. So it was crappy. That was what I went through. Yeah.
Rob Marsh: I’m glad you shared that. I think this, I mean, obviously it’s maybe not as big as having an attorney reach out, but stuff like this happens for all of us, like even just plain old burnout. You know, if you are tired and exhausted from doing the work for so long and struggling to try to make it, it does get really hard to show up. A copywriter reached out to me last week. Her apartment had been broken into. And, you know, like that kind of a thing, just it threw her off of her game. I was honored that she reached out and just like, you know, help, you know, help me think through this. You know, what should I do? She would even ask for my advice on that. It was awesome. But this stuff happens to us. It helps, I think, if we have a game plan. It’s like, okay, what if everything goes wrong? Like, what would I do? But it’s hard to predict so much of this stuff. And having to show up and be you know, be Joanna, be Rob or Kira or whatever for your clients for anybody else who’s trusting you to do stuff. It’s freaking hard.
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, it is. And that’s where I think it breaks a lot of people because it’s so hard. And you’re like, well, I just actually do like for me to get through this, I need to stay in bed for a while or I need to go get away and clear my head in the mountains and things that like And that also requires money. So there’s a level of privilege required in order to take care of yourself when that’s what you need most. So it’s, yeah, it’s no joke, the things that people are going through and how difficult it really, really is to get through them. Yeah, this is a very depressing topic, Kira. Thank you for bringing that up.
Kira Hug: I’m really good at that. It’s a gift. We’ll shift to something lighter. As things have shifted in our space, the copywriting space, how do you spot, identify opportunities within your business to direct your team, saying this is worth my time, this is worth the team’s time to shift the business and focus here? How do you think about that and approach it?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, that’s a great question. When I think about the shifts that my team has made, two big ones are way more in social media. Uh, so we’ve shifted away from writing long content outside of our like AI prompts section on our site. That’s our only like long content that we write now. Um, and now it’s more social media. So I have one person who’s in charge of Instagram, one person who’s in charge of YouTube. And then, um, shoot there was something else that I had and oh yeah and now many chat as a new like sort of direct selling opportunity uh with dms and sms and whatsapp and all that stuff but that’s really brand new but when I think about like where those shifts came from uh I was away on a retreat um So it’s like the people you surround yourself with are often the people who will give you what you need for what’s next. And sometimes without even meaning to.
So I was away on a retreat with a few of my friends in this thing called Shine Crew, which is like women building women up, lifting each other up instead of pushing each other down, which is how most are conditioned, sadly. So this lifting each other up thing, we went away for this retreat. And I was there. I was talking with Gia from Forget the Funnel. She was on this retreat. Um, and she was like, Joe, something like Joe, you have no social game. And I was like, what? I didn’t know I had to. And she’s like, you need to be on social. And I was like, Oh, okay. And she said it was such a passing thing. Like we were just on a retreat again together in January. And I was like, so I took your. advice, your little snide comment, seriously. And now I’ve got these people on social media. And she was like, what did I say?
She had no recollection that she’d even told me to do this. But the point is, it was good advice. I was like, you’re actually right. We’ve put so much into building our email list and doing stuff that’s like that sort of direct marketing. But when you combine what’s going on like social and all of the tools now to turn social into more of a direct channel as well, which is kind of interesting. So one part it’s being told by people to get your butt in gear, get on those spaces where everybody else is. But then the other one was another Dan Martell. Buy the book, evidently. Buy back your time if you’re listening to this. Go do that. But Dan uses ManyChat for selling people into his coaching program. So if you follow him on Instagram and he opens a conversation with you, and then it turns into, I think, an automation through ManyChat. And then, and you can see this just by following Dan and then see what happens. And then it turns into, it switches over to a closer. So, and this is all set up in Manychat, you have to manually open, like you have to follow some, like when someone follows you on Instagram, you then have to DM them manually to get them started. And once they reply, then Manychat can take over for a bit, which is cool. So those are like the shifts that I’m making, but if I wasn’t in Shine Crew, I wouldn’t really be thinking about this. my social presence being non-existent.
And if I wasn’t in Dan’s training, I wouldn’t know anything about ManyChat either. So to me, it comes back to, are you in a mastermind? Are you in a group where other people are sharing great ideas? And it’s really sad because the number of people who go into programs like your programs and like freelancing school, they tend to leave when things get hard and that’s the moment you should be staying like that’s when you need us most when things are easy it’s really nice to add fuel to the fire but Freelancers, consultants, people who are trying to grow their online business. There’s so much to do. There’s so much out there. You could do so many things wrong or just avoid things. You’ve got to surround yourself with people that are like trying to up level and like new levels, new devils, right? So as you get to that new level, you have to then understand how to deal with the new devil there. But if you’re not around people, you don’t know that. And so you just kind of sit there. point answer, long answer to your question, Kara, is those are the things that we’re working on that are different. And they came about because people basically said, do it this way. And so now we are.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah, we’re big believers in the whole mastermind thing. I know you are. You come home from a mastermind, and you’ve got so many ideas, it’s almost hard to execute on all of the stuff, which that’s maybe the downside of the mastermind is that there’s so many good ideas. I have a very different question for you, Joanna. So we talked to you last on the podcast almost seven years ago. It doesn’t feel like it was seven years because you’ve spoken at our events. We’ve had you at other places, but literally the last time you were on the podcast was episode 14, and that was recorded over seven years ago. So since then, I mean, obviously you were doing this for a while before then. You’ve been doing this ever since. What are you bored of talking about? The question you never want to be asked again, or the thing that you never want to have to say again, what is that?
Joanna Wiebe: How do I do research if I don’t have customers? How do I find new clients if I don’t have results?
Rob Marsh: Okay, and what are the answers?
Kira Hug: That’s how we’ll wrap this conversation.
Joanna Wiebe: Do you actually want to know the answers to them?
Rob Marsh: No, I don’t. I’m not going to make you talk about it. You’ve talked about them so many times. There are no easy answers.
Kira Hug: Yes. Okay. So in your company today, when you look at your website, it looks like you have a team. It looks like a growing team. I noticed some other family members. Yes. So I guess there’s a couple of questions here. What does your team look like today? What is the role you’re playing? And then I’m going to ask about working with family.
Rob Marsh: So I’m going to like, monopolize the questions for me. I’m just going to monopolize. I’ll just be quiet while Kira finishes her question.
Kira Hug: Rob, just let me finish this. I got it.
Joanna Wiebe: Okay. My team today is… we made a switch to a lot of contractors. So we had people, because we were doing so many launches, we had people on full time, but then between launches, I needed a lot of downtime between them. So it was just like twiddle your thumbs a little bit. So we moved to contractors. So some of the team members that we had. I just had a talk with them, like, are you down to move into a contract role? It doesn’t make sense for you to be here full time. And they said, yes. So we moved from having an in-house email marketer to a contractor now that we work with. And then, and that’s really good for his life because he’s got a baby and all sorts of things. And his wife is very busy with her job, her business. So we moved that, we moved our media buyer to a contract as well, which is fantastic. So yeah, a lot of those, there’s others that will come up.
We had Jess Noel working on publishing for a little over a year on contract. She was great. Ghostwriters, of course, are on contract too. All of the people who are filling our AI prompts section are just freelancers. who we work with on an ongoing basis. So a lot of contractors involved. The core team is, as you said, I have two family members in there, as well as three other full-timers. So we’re a team of six full-time right now. We’re having an onsite, because we’re always off site but we have an Edmonton office so we’re having an onsite meeting on next Monday and Tuesday, where we’ll be talking about some roles that we might need to open one of those roles is likely. one or two people in charge of team sales, because we’re seeing team sales really kind of escalate. There’s a lot more demand there than there was even two years ago. So that’s something that we’ll have to explore. But I’ll be working with my team to figure out if that’s the thing worth exploring. So the team that we have, um, my sister, so we think of our funnel as like a rectangle that’s horizontal. So it’s not a funnel at all. Because that’s upside down like that.
We’re like, okay, if there’s a customer journey here, let’s make it a nice big rectangle. Everybody comes in and goes out and stays up on the other side. Um, so the front, before you become a customer, Paul manages that Paul’s my brother. Um, and he’s been working for me for four or five years for a long, long time. So he manages the front and that includes, we’ve got Lindsay, she does support and she also is taking over our mini chat because support takes like two hours a day, but we need somebody always available. So that’s like someone who makes sense to have on full time for us at least. So she’s taken over Manychat learning to really own that. And then Nicole and Mike, Mike runs YouTube. He’s responsible for growing our channel from I think 10,000 people right now to 100,000 by the end of the year. Good luck, Mike. Nicole is in charge of Instagram. She is in charge of moving it from 15,000 followers, I think, to 150,000 by end of year. Also, best of luck to Nicole.
So with that, then we have them in masterminds as well to move them more quickly along in their skill acquisition and implementation and being more strategic about everything. So those are the three people that are working with Paul on the front. before you become a customer. Sarah fully owns after you become a customer what goes on there. And that’s where we have freelancing school. She oversees our four coaches that we have in Freelancing School and in Copy School Professional. She oversees our four coaches there as well. And then I am across the entire journey for now. I don’t see that being the thing going forward, but we used to have a team of 12. And I was run off my feet and doing nothing. I was constantly reacting to people and what they needed and rarely getting ahead of it. So it felt really good to take a bunch of those roles down to contractors. We moved a few of those people over to an agency, which has since become its very own thing. That’s Rashi and Carolyn. Um, yeah, and that’s really where we’re at. So taking it back to a good place, but have you read E-Myth Revisited? Yeah.
Rob Marsh: So we, everybody who wants to run a team or anything bigger than themselves ought to read HcCRRFfeSNeQRIsHlx0BWl8vo5g0vapgELykeUsj0.tQOP9nqk4Y1XcY3AQCdF0qzSN-hVhJsI36Jd8YoSVOo&qid=1708536178&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=abaf1fe49b92f5fbb1bf390a80ad46c8&camp=1789&creative=9325">E-Myth Revisited.
Joanna Wiebe: Totally need to read it. Um, for me, I recognized in reading it that we had, because I was going through that shitty stuff with my ex team member who had a claim against me, against us. I was going through this and that kind of scared me on people. So that’s one of the reasons I like moved to contract. And it also made me kind of shrink into myself a little bit, which he points out in the book is like, it’s a common thing that happens. Now we got to get you back out of that. So that’s the stage that I’m in right now is trusting people again. And then moving out to a place where I can buy back my time, as Dan would say, and be able to bring on the right roles so that I don’t have to do everything. And I don’t do everything, but there are some things that I’m doing that I definitely shouldn’t be doing. Does that answer your question, Kira?
Kira Hug: I mean, I asked five questions in my one.
Joanna Wiebe: That was two, team and my role. Then there’s this whole working with family thing, which is like,
Kira Hug: Yeah, just give us a taste of what it’s like to work with family, the good and the bad.
Joanna Wiebe: Oh, there’s mostly bad. Just kidding.
Rob Marsh: We’re going to have to figure out a way to block Sarah and your brother from listening to the podcast so you can get real with us here.
Joanna Wiebe: They would say the same thing. Like, we’ve actually talked about doing a podcast on things like working with family, sibling rivalry or something. There was a different word in place of rivalry. I don’t remember. We didn’t do it. We might still do it. It’s tough. It’s really, it’s hard, but at the same time, there’s the benefit of a person that loves you, who you love, wants to help you grow a thing that’s important to you and also to them, right? It’s like, they’re not, if you’re an employee, you can often feel like you’re not part of growing the thing. And I think that that’s my challenge with people. who aren’t my family, who work for me is like reminding them that this is theirs to build too.
But it’s harder to understand that when you’re not a partner, you don’t have equity in a company, you don’t get paid, you get paid bonuses and performance bonuses. But if there’s not that same level of ownership that you do get when you employ a family member, who cares about you being successful, and who knows you care about them right back. You care about your other employees, too. It’s just you don’t say, love you, Mike. You don’t. I mean, we don’t say this stuff at work anyway. But that’s the good thing. The hard thing is, of course, all of the baked in history, relationship-y stuff, and how that comes out, and how hard it is to have conversations. that are real and honest that don’t come down to, that don’t turn into problems.
My brother Paul is really good at compartmentalizing me as like his boss versus me as his sister. So I can give him critical feedback and he takes it like a team member, not like my brother. Sarah and I struggle with Sarah’s my older sister. In my family, you were raised to like, you know, if Sarah wanted a glass of water, she would say, Joe, go get me some water. And then you do it. And when I see families that don’t do that, I’m like, that was an option to say no, you could say no to your older sibling. It wasn’t for us. So like, except for Paul, he would always say no to me, whatever. But that’s the tricky thing, right? Those things. So Sarah and I are actually looking at talking to Sarah just came back, she used to work for me. Then she went back to nursing during COVID and now she’s back. So we’re looking at getting a therapist to talk to, to just make sure that we get ahead of things and stay on the same page. Yeah.
Rob Marsh: Remind me not to work with my siblings. I don’t think I could work with my siblings. I love my siblings, but I don’t think that would be… That’d be hard. It’d be really hard. Yeah.
Kira Hug: I could work with one of them, maybe two of the other. Hard no. Hard no.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. Sometimes it’s hard enough just to be siblings, let alone to be working together. That’s very true.
Joanna Wiebe: Oh, right. Exactly. It’s hard to get together with your siblings without going like, well, it’s been 20 minutes. I got to go. It’s tough. It’s very tough. And I won’t be hiring. I’ve got two other siblings. There’s no way I’d hire them. I love them and that’s why I just couldn’t do it. Yeah. Yeah. But Purna successfully works with her husband. I know. I think Abby just hired her mom. So there are people who can do it. All the power to them. They need to put out a course on how to do it.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. Or, or maybe their relationships are just better, stronger. I don’t know that, you know, who knows what it is. So Jo, earlier you mentioned, just write a book. That’s how you pretty much launched your business is that you wrote some books and they were shared in the tech community. Let’s say that you don’t have that option right now. I’m just going to take it off the table, even though that may be unrealistic and you had to rebuild a business, you know, starting out from scratch, whatever, what would you do besides write the book to attract that level of attention, the clients to you. I know you don’t want to be pitching. It’s never been your thing. So what would you do to build that authority faster without a book?
Joanna Wiebe: One thing consistently and that one thing would be something that’s easy to distribute and that might have a baked in form of distribution or audience discovery. Substack was my answer until I saw stuff happen there. But that sucks because Substack has that baked in recommendation engine, which is so powerful. If not that, it has to be a thing where you can show up for it, adding value daily, twice daily, whatever that might be. and have it get distributed. So it’s really like, can you do it? I wouldn’t do it on YouTube because you get, it’s very hard to get results on YouTube until you get to a certain level. And even then sounds like it’s hard, but probably I would show up on Instagram being very, very honest and controversial. Not in a negative way, hopefully not in a harmful way, not controversy that’s mean to people, but like saying something that is true, but that people aren’t saying, and just say it a lot in a lot of different ways. But that’s tricky because if it doesn’t hit, then you’ve put a lot of energy in.
Medium might be a way to go, but yeah, it’s sad that Substack has had this stuff going on because it was a really good way to grow your authority really quickly with people who read. That’s the nice thing about blog posts as they used to be and books. It’s for people who read, who engage their brain and their mind. They’re not sitting there saying, Nobody reads online. They’re like, yeah, people actually do consume information and it’ll help get them to buy from us. So I don’t know if there’s an easy way. What do you think? What’s your take on that? Start a podcast. Yeah. I’m always concerned about a podcast. I know you guys do it very successfully. But it’s this walled garden thing that doesn’t seem to have a recommendation engine built in. Does it?
Kira Hug: There are some. I think HubSpot has a recommendation engine built. So I think there are more and more of those organizations that you can tap into.
Rob Marsh: I mean attribution is hard with a podcast for sure. But I think podcasting has one advantage that no other media has. And I know I’ve said this once or twice before, but all other media is external. to us. You see billboards, you read magazines, you even read books outside of your brain, but podcasts happen inside your brain. Even though we’re recording it in the world, you listen to it usually with headphones in, which means that when you’re listening to my voice right now, it is happening inside your head where your own thoughts happen. And so it’s the most intimate of media.
It’s, for that reason, I love it. And I will say, I shouldn’t be surprised, but I’m amazed every time that somebody has joined our program, how often they’ll say, I am a copywriter today because I started binging your podcast, or I’m here because I learned how to trust you on the podcast. While attribution is really hard to say, we took the 5,000 listeners this week and 30 of them joined our programs, that’s really hard to see. I know it happens because we get it anecdotally.
Joanna Wiebe: That’s amazing.
Kira Hug: How do you deal with Imposter Complex if you deal with it at all? Because I feel like we all see you. So many copywriters see you. You’re a leader in this space and it sometimes feels like you’re this force and unstoppable and like you can do anything. So it’s got to be easy for you.
Rob Marsh: Didn’t somebody say that you don’t have Imposter Complex?
Kira Hug: Do you have it? Do you deal with it if you do? How do you work through it? Because I think it’s easy for all three of us to talk about authority building and we’ve done it We’re continuing to do it not to say that we don’t do hard things and still always a hard thing to do But what do you recommend those writers listening who are just like getting in their head telling themselves This is gonna be stupid or someone already said this before it’s too crowded What has worked for you or what do you think could work for them?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, I don’t have imposter syndrome like you said, Rob. I haven’t experienced it. And I think that’s just because maybe I didn’t start by taking it that seriously. I don’t know, but like when I started out as a copywriter, I didn’t even know what it meant. So it wasn’t like I didn’t put it on some sort of pedestal. I wasn’t like, there’s so many better people out there. I think there are so many better people out there than I am. Such strong copywriters. And I’m like, well, I’m not that good. But I don’t I don’t know. I just don’t.
Maybe I’m a raging narcissist. I don’t beat myself up for it. I just feel like we all bring our thing. I know I have a thing to bring and end of story. I don’t. I just don’t. I know so many freelancers in Freelancing School and Copy School pro have this, that exact imposter syndrome. My friend, Tiffany, who used to be head of growth at Shopify, same thing. She had imposter syndrome. Um, and I love listening to people talk about it, but, you know, I think part of it is, um, there’s a, I don’t worry that I’m a horrible writer. I like writing. I enjoy it. Um, I enjoyed it in university and I got rewarded for it. So I like it and I feel like I take it seriously. I take the writing seriously enough and I take my reader seriously enough. But I don’t hold it up as this incredible thing. Unlike, if you were to write some novel, then I think as soon as you have to go pitch somebody on publishing your novel, that’s like when imposter syndrome would really hit.
I probably suck at this, but I just, I haven’t had that thought and I would encourage people Listen to people who understand imposter syndrome, and if what they’re saying doesn’t get through, if you’re like, that doesn’t feel right either, try. Try my way, which is just like, don’t really care what people have to say about it. Easier said than done. And if you’re like, Jo, that’s dumb, then ignore me. But if the other things that you’ve heard about imposter syndrome haven’t been working, look around. at some of the big name copywriters out there and allow yourself to be really critical of the copy that these people put out. And then you can ask, isn’t that good? I might actually be better than that person is. And let yourself entertain that thought. You might actually be better than they are. If you’re not, a great way to cure imposter syndrome is the same way that you cure writer’s block. Research. Go find out how to do this stuff well. Surround yourself with people who care about this.
And then you might see that, OK, I can do headlines. Headlines, I rock. And just don’t worry about the other things. Also, don’t try to do everything. Be a sales page copywriter. be the best sales page copywriter, and then forget about emails. That’s not your gem. You don’t have to do emails if you’re a sales page copywriter. Just be that one thing. So maybe you’re spreading yourself too thin. Maybe you’re trying to be everything. Maybe you’re somebody who thinks that you have to get all these results in order to share them because everybody cares. Nobody cares. So just like, I think it’s one part, take it less seriously, and then take parts of it more seriously. Very bad advice from somebody who doesn’t experience imposter syndrome.
Rob Marsh: I have to admit though, I have to, I mean, I relate. I also don’t feel a lot of imposter syndrome in the things that I do either. And I, I’m not sure why I, you know, I can’t put a finger on it. I think I, in your answer, I hear you sort of struggling to put a finger on that. Um, I mean, I, there are definitely things that I feel uncomfortable doing, but like I’ve never thought, Oh, I had a conversation with Sam Woods a long time ago, maybe four or five years ago. We were talking about Gary Halbert’s copy. And Gary Halbert, who is often talked about as the greatest copywriter ever, his copy isn’t stunningly amazing. It’s very simple. He was a master direct response marketer. But his copy is good. I’m certainly not saying, no, he doesn’t deserve the title. But when I read his copy, I’m like, I write like this. Maybe even I write smarter than this sometimes, which is maybe that’s worse in some ways, I know. That depends on the audience. It’s a weird thing. Listening to you answer, I’m shaking my head. I’m like, yeah, I get it. I feel the same way and maybe I should feel imposter complex. I don’t know. I’m broken.
Joanna Wiebe: We’re both broken.
Kira Hug: Okay, so as we start to wrap, I want to get back to what you said about trusting people. I think that’s important. And so how have you started to trust people again? Because I think it is easy. I’ve struggled with this as I’ve grown in our business, trusting people less at times, even as you get like, quote, unquote, bigger. And so how, how are you dealing with that now so that you can trust people?
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. Um, slowly doing it. Um, only, I guess I’m just being like, I’m just kind of careful about letting people in. I don’t think I’ll ever hire anybody again, who identifies themselves as a fan girl or a fanboy, because there’s this level of expectation that you are somebody who is deserving of fans. And I’m like, I didn’t ask for that. So if you come in and you think, Oh, great. I’m working for Joe. This is going to be cool. And you have this weird idea of me, you will find very quickly that I’m like a normal person who operates rapidly. Um, and so you’ll be like, she expects too much. Yeah, I do. So like, you’re not going to like me. And so I wouldn’t recommend it.
I won’t hire somebody who is like in our, in our world and would say like, my number one thing is to work for you. That’s like, you’ll hate me. So that won’t work. So letting the right people in who I’m unlikely to disappoint, I think maybe that sounds like, whoa, you’ve set the bar low. But kind of that’s the key to happiness I’ve heard. So that’s what’s working for me. And also talking to other founders and business owners who have been through the same. Like the only other time I’ve talked about this person suing me effectively was when Rand Fishkin invited me to talk about it to his SparkToro audience. Rand is so open with the struggles that he’s had. So I think a way to trust is to know that it’s hard for a lot of people. If you’re an employer, it’s a whole different thing to be. So be forgiving with yourself and know that you can forgive yourself and others who judge you by looking around at the people like Rand who’ve had to go through the same thing. So again, it just seems to come back to the people you hang out with, like hang out with people who’ve been through it, and then you can maybe learn to trust again. That’s been my experience at least. Yeah. It’s all about that network is net worth thing.
Rob Marsh: Good advice. So what’s next for you, Joe? What, what’s coming up in the, in 2024, that’s going to make your life, copy hackers, maybe our lives better.
Joanna Wiebe: So I’m working with two research assistants right now on a proper book. tentatively called mine, but it’s just about conversion copywriting. April Dunford and I continue to work toward possibly doing something that we’re calling authority figures, which is like an event based thing where you get together and go through authority building stuff. But that’s That’s the hard thing when you have, I have a business that’s, you know, like growing and doing cool things. And she has a business that’s doing the same and we’re like, we should do this. And then we just end up hanging out together instead. Um, but those are the things. So definitely the book, definitely the book. Um, but then otherwise possibly authority figures, which will maybe be of use.
Rob Marsh: So I’ve been trying to get April on the podcast. She’s, she’s said, well, she’s always like someday, like really busy right now. So maybe if authority figures happens, we can get April on the podcast to talk about it. So that’s going to be my fingers crossed.
Joanna Wiebe: Go ahead, Kira. So I said, hook us up. Oh, for sure. I’ll go with Slacker right after this and see what’s up.
Rob Marsh: She’s not been blowing us off. She’s just like, hey, I’m busy. And I’m like, okay, I’ll follow up in a little while. We’ll see.
Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. I know Q1 is slammed for her, but maybe Q2. That’d be cool.
Rob Marsh: We can always hope.
Kira Hug: All right. So for our listeners who want to connect with you, where’s the best place for them to go? It sounds like maybe it’s Instagram now.
Joanna Wiebe: Where should we go? Maybe Instagram? Yes. I mean, always, if you want to get tutorials and things, YouTube is filled with those. Yeah, I’m sending people off to non-coffee hackers domains and Instagram is all sorts of stuff too. But we do have AI prompts if you’re somebody who’s digging AI or wants to. We’ve got a whole section called AI prompts now, which we also then turn into content on social and YouTube. So you’ll find it in different places. And we’ve got a new series of AI prompts coming. So that’s over on copyhackers.com. That’s like a hub for all of our stuff. Otherwise Instagram is copyhackers and YouTube is copyhackers as well. Thanks y’all. That was fun. Great seeing you again.
Rob Marsh: I’ll see you in seven years.
Thanks to Joanna for joining us to chat about her business. Chances are you already follow her, but if not look for her on social media, she is copyhackers everywhere you go and visit copyhackers.com to learn more about the programs she offer.
A lot of copywriters talk about building a “real” business, that is a business that isn’t solely built on writing copy for clients. In the 382nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Joel Klettke who used his writing and sales expertise, developed as a copywriter, to build a team and service business bigger than what he might have built on his own. And he shared what he’s learned from the experience.
Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Rob Marsh: Over the past 7 years of publishing this podcast, it’s pretty rare that we bring guests back for a second visit. And the guests that have been back three times? I could be wrong but by my count, that’s only happened twice. Today’s episode makes it three.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of Case Study Buddy, Joel Klettke to catch up on what he’s been doing for the past couple of years. Joel has gone from being a top performing, in-demand copywriter to the founder of a million dollar business. And in our discussion, he shared some of the lessons he learned along the way.
But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. It is truly the membership for copywriters and content writers… where you can find the training, coaching, copy reviews, and community you need to build a successful copywriting business. To learn more visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu
And now let’s jump into our interview with Joel…
Kira Hug: All right, so Joel, I’m not going to ask you how you ended up as a copywriter because we already covered that in episode, Rob, which episode? I know you know.
Rob Marsh: Episode 21 is the first time and maybe like 107, I think, is the second time. It’s been a while though. It’s been a while since we chatted on the podcast.
Joel Klettke: Yeah. I like these, it’s almost like a snapshot in time, like journal entry to go back and listen to myself on somebody’s life.
Rob Marsh: How much better life was back in episode 107?
Kira Hug: Well, going back to 21, I think that was the one I was listening to and reading the transcript from. That’s when you were, correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s when you were just starting case study, buddy, right? That was the origin of it when you were getting into case studies. Or was that 107?
Rob Marsh: I think it was even before that.
Kira Hug: Yeah, it was before that. We were introducing it. You had that business running at that time.
Joel Klettke: Yeah, like technically Case Study Buddy is almost eight years old. It was off the side of our desks initially. And then right before the pandemic, we kind of pivoted to focus full-time on that. So that became kind of a big transition point. And then it’s continued to be the full-time focus since then. So we’ve only really been two years, maybe three now, full-time pushing this thing.
Kira Hug: Okay, well, let’s go back then to before pandemic when you went all in and just curious, like what, what triggered that decision for you and your business partner to go all in on this business?
Joel Klettke: I think there are a whole bunch of different factors. I think, you know, at the time, the grass is always greener in life in general, you know, like you always want to be doing that new thing. The headspace I was in at that moment was I had done the freelance thing and I’d done it well, graduated to basically being in a position of consulting for some pretty great brands, some really great projects. You get to the point that you are now making what your heroes made.
I remember listening to Joanna Wiebe talk about charging $10,000 for a landing page and thinking, that’s so outlandish. And then I got there. And at that point, I was kind of hitting the ceiling. I felt like I was hitting the ceiling of my potential. I just wanted to keep growing. I wanted to change. I was finding when I was working on projects, I was going through this weird anxiety almost of like, now that I’m on this level, I have to keep delivering at this level. I have to keep being this person in this way. I still had a lot of work.
It wasn’t like I was forced into a pivot, but it was kind of like, in the meantime, we have this other thing going on off the side of our desks that is growing under its own steam. It’s kind of gone from you know, $17,000 in its first year, very, very part time to, you know, then maybe like 38. And then you had this big jump up to 80. And then all of a sudden, you’re 200. And then you’re 800. And now you’re approaching a million. And meanwhile, you haven’t really spent full time energy or effort. So you start to wonder, you know, what could this thing be if we really devoted when I say we I’m talking about myself.
And for those who don’t know, there’s a partner in the business named Jen who I used to work with agency side. And then we teamed up on this thing. So it was growing a lot. And it kind of looked like, hey, this is an opportunity to maybe build something that might outlast me. It’s a chance to grow in new and different ways to build a team, to build a process, to move out of the craft per se and into the business side of business. And so it was that combination of lots of potential growth alongside this desire to keep learning and keep growing myself that just made it seem like, yeah, now we got a strike while the iron is hot. And so we did.
Rob Marsh: So we’re not going to talk about every piece of your journey, Joel. But just looking back, I’m curious, over the past couple of years, what would you do differently to build? If you’re going to build the same business that you’ve built right now, Are there things that you would do differently that you didn’t do the first time that might impact where you are today?
Joel Klettke: Yeah, I think I had, in some senses, before I get into the most present, what I do differently. In some senses, I had a test balloon. Because when I was doing business casual full-time, I tried to build a team. And it went miserably. I focused so much on the profit side of it and the potential for that that I overlooked the people side of it and the process side of it, especially, and focusing on making it scalable from the beginning. which, you know, I didn’t make the exact same mistakes with Case Study Buddy, but there’s certainly things that, you know, I, in retrospect or in hindsight, it’s, it’s easy to see where you might’ve deviated.
So one of those things is like, I was petrified of the whole idea of hiring and like full-time, like, how do you know when you can bring someone in and like, isn’t there a lot of paperwork and like the government and all, you know, like that whole notion, even though it wasn’t that complicated in retrospect, it kept me back from you know, making some of those decisions. And so for a long time, you know, we held off on bringing other people in outside of pure production roles until we absolutely needed to. So for example, one of our first not staff, but more of like a full time retainer was a gal named Morgan on the projects and operations side of things. And the difference that made when I talk about that jump from like, 200 to like 800.
That was the introduction of Morgan and operationalizing the process and having someone whose full-time job was the process. I think when you’re so used to coming from a freelance thing where the work is the process and it’s just you, you don’t realize how quickly stuff breaks and needs to be reinvented and how quickly that becomes a full-time focus until you’re in the thick of it. So we held off on that just too long. And once we had someone in that seat, the growth just exploded and the ability to focus elsewhere was colossal. So I would have brought an operations person in much, much earlier. I think By the same token, one of the lessons we’re learning now years later, case studies, especially customer stories, are such a variable product and timeline. Namely because there’s so many stakeholders inherent in it. There’s you and your team, there’s your client, there’s your client’s customer, and then within there, there can be lots of legal PR.
In the beginning, I really looked at this as like a productized business, like set a price, buy a thing, it’s this much for a case study. And that worked until it really, really didn’t work. Because now when you start to hire these fixed full-time staff, you’re incurring overhead all of the time. Whether or not you can execute on that work or not, if a project hits pause and you’ve only billed $3,000 for it, every month that holds in pause, you’re paying somebody to chase up on it and your margin gets eliminated. So I think I would have looked and tried to be more in tune with how the decisions we’d made around the underlying model of the business were influencing the business. But when you’re growing, everything seems like it’s going great. Like, well, we’re growing. How could anything be wrong? And you kind of don’t realize until you take a really close look, like, hey, there’s some things we really need to address here.
I think one other thing I would mention, it’s like the cliche You hear a lot of people talking about hiring slow, firing fast. I’m a people pleaser. I always want to give people the benefit of the doubt. I want people to win. You want every hire you make to work out. You want to believe that you made the right call. You want to believe that everyone can succeed and thrive and will find their footing. But something that I’ve learned now over the course of hiring both contractors and staff is that you can do everything right in the hiring process and it can still not work out. And there have been situations where out of a desire to give people a chance or to not rock the boat or for any excuse really, there have been people that we held on to too long to the point it was not good for them. It was not good for us. It was not good for the team. And nobody’s, none of these were bad people. They’re all great people, just not great fits.
And I think one of the lessons I learned is that I used to always view letting someone go as a, just this like egregious, you know, tense event when in reality, you know, maybe this is just, clever woo-woo framing, I don’t know. But if they’re not thriving there, then you keeping them there is preventing them from being in a place that they really can from their next chapter. And while there may be pain in the moment for both sides, there is a net benefit to everyone being able to move on. So I mean, those are some of the hundreds, honestly, of lessons, things I would have done differently, I would have been quicker, especially to move on from people that just were not clearly were not working out, even if you really, really liked them and wanted them to. That’s a lesson that you, for me, anyways, you don’t learn until you’ve had to make that call and felt the immediate relief, you’re still sad, you’re still obviously the situation, you’re not happy about it. But the immediate weight off your shoulders, the minute that call is done, and it’s like, now we can begin again. And I hope those people felt to now I can begin again and find something that’s better for me. So those are some of the myriad things I continue to learn.
Kira Hug: Yeah, so I guess this is similar to Rob’s question. But what knowing everything you know now, all the wisdom you bring to business. So going back, let’s say you didn’t have case study buddy and you get your copywriting business back up and running. What would you do differently in that business with everything that you know now?
Joel Klettke: It’s I mean, it’s a lesson I’ve talked about before, right? When you’re coming in, I think I loved writing. and I wanted to write. I never saw a business case in it until I did and then it was my job. For so long I focused so much on being really the best I could be at the craft, which is not a mistake, but the reality is if you want to up your earning potential, if you want to get to a position of authority, if you want to command, You know, respect and dollars and all of that. You have to focus. Your focus is, yes, you obviously need the underlying talent and work in the craft. You have to become essentially a consultant. You control your destiny when you know enough about your own business and your own audience and your own offering that you can pitch it well, you can structure it well, you can come into businesses like you’re the person with the plan as opposed to being dictated to.
And so I don’t know that I necessarily regret the way that it played out because I think it was a natural learning curve. But had I known earlier on, the closer I get to that consultant type of title, the better I do in all regards. I think I would have made that a focus earlier on. I think beyond that, something that I mentioned earlier, I’ve always been a people pleaser. I went out on my own in 2013, so we’re past a decade into this now. I have easily lost six figures in revenue. being accommodating, being nice, not enforcing things I could have enforced, not having difficult conversations that probably should have been had, going above and beyond because I was nervous about my own value and ability to deliver. And so I think, you know, you don’t have to be an asshole. I think, you know, nice, nice guys and gals still can win. But you do cut yourself off at the knees often. when you shy away from any kind of conflict or tension or standing up for yourself. And I got good at that as time went on.
These days, I think I would have folded a lawn chair to some of the feedback that I’ve had to deal with over the past few years. if it was happening in my freelance and consulting kind of stuff. But getting used to the idea that you’re not going to make everyone happy, that issues are going to arise, that you don’t have to take every issue on the chin or give up your margin or give up your time just to make everything right. There are other ways to do that. I think I played a little too nice strictly on the business end. I don’t regret a moment of being nice to my peers or in communities or anything like that. That pays infinite dividends, but on the business end, being a people pleaser is a very expensive way to be.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I may want to come back to that idea. You were talking, though, about the pathway to becoming a consultant. And I wonder if we could go deeper on that, Joel, because I think there are a lot of people who see themselves as copywriters. They would like to get to the consulting type projects, but they don’t see the pathway. They don’t know the steps. So I wonder if you could sort of step through how you did it yourself. What was it that you were doing to build your authority? What was it that you were doing to make the right connections? All of the various steps that get you from where you were to where you want to go.
Joel Klettke: I mean, before we talk authority and connections, let’s talk about the functional, like, how do I do consulting? Because that is a daunting question for people. And the simplest way I can try to frame it is think about everything that has to happen before you get a brief and do that stuff. Like, that’s really it. It’s, you know, before you get handed something to deliver against, somebody has to diagnose an issue. come up with a solution, hash out a process for solving and applying that solution, and then that very end piece is getting the people to actually put hands to the plow and do the work. If you want to be a consultant, the odds are very good you’re already doing aspects of it without being aware of it.
When you come into a situation, this is where things started to click for me when I realized I was starting to give advice, not just deliverables. I started to realize I have opinions and ideas and methodologies that I think people could apply to get this done. It started for me kind of innocuously thinking I should really be able to help people out with the customer research portion of that. I’m going to get good at that piece. Well, that led to the next puzzle piece, which is analyzing the data that came out of that. And that led to being able to make recommendations against that data. And that led to being able to sit in a boardroom and defend those recommendations to people who were, you know, maybe in conflict or maybe unsure of the path forward.
And that ultimately culminated in all right, now I’ve got this packaged up process for here is how we’re gonna do customer research. Here’s how we’re gonna do analysis. Here’s the report that you’re going to get. Here’s how that’s gonna play into your deliverables. Here’s how that’s gonna play in beyond our engagement. And so the simplest way to repeat is think about everything that happens before the brief and start focusing on how can I play even a role in one part of that? And you’ll know that you’re starting to get there when you see a project or you see a site or you see a company and things spring to mind for you based on your experience now having done the work of this is what I think you should do here and this is why. And when you can explain that why and articulate that why and come with a process for answering that why, that’s how you get there.
So it’s not the case that you put cart before the horse, like I’m just going to go make myself an authority and then people will trust me to consult. For me, it happened the opposite way around. It was I got very good at the craft and through that saw the opportunities for me to expand what I was doing. And then because of that, it led to, okay, now I feel comfortable because I’m already teaching in private. I’m teaching clients. I’m advising clients. Now I can translate that to the public. Speaking at events was massive. I still think in-person events are the most underrated way to grow your business, period, in a consulting or small business way.
But you also don’t have to wait for an event to come to you getting on podcasts, getting on LinkedIn, you know, like my mantra for literally almost a decade now has been solve problems in public. That is consulting, that is authority building, that is the single sentence approach I have taken for the past 10 plus years to positioning myself as someone who is known for and understood to be capable of solving a problem. It’s just doing that over and over and over in a public forum, be it social media, be it speaking events, be it one-on-one with people be it, you know, for years I did free audits just to sharpen my tools and then those transitioned into paid audits and having that as an offering, you know, that’s easy to pick off a shelf, you know, productized audit offering is brilliant for venturing into the world of consulting. But I think, yeah, don’t get the two mixed up. Don’t start with the public stuff and go, I’ll figure out how to do the consulting later. That’s how shysters and faux gurus emerge. take what you’re doing and bring it out to the world.
Kira Hug: Yeah. I like how simple it is just to think about, okay, if I’m giving, if I find myself giving advice to my clients frequently, that’s a good sign that I might be ready for consulting. And that’s a different timeline for everyone. It could be one year for someone, and then it could be 10 years for the next person. And that’s, that’s okay. Um, I want to go back to what you shared initially. I wrote it down. Uh, you said, I was trying to figure out how to be this person in this way. You were talking about what, when you were figuring out the next steps and you, it sounds like you were having some friction as far as like, I’ve already hit the top of the game. Where do I go from here? You didn’t say this, but it’s also like people are watching. You’ve got a great reputation. So could you talk a little bit more about what you mean by that? Cause I can relate to that.
Joel Klettke: Yeah. I mean, so, you know, I’m not arrogant enough to think that I was like the best copywriter in the world, but I had gotten to a place where I think you are. Thank you. But I’d gotten to a place where I was doing the thing. I was up there. When I would be in a room of other copywriters and we were talking about who we were working with and what we were able to charge, I found myself in league with the top 5% of the people in that conversation. That was a wonderful place to be, but it came with this enormous amount of pressure. It’s kind of like how as a kid, everyone wants to be famous, and then famous people want to retreat back into obscurity, because this is not the deal I thought I was getting here.
I’ve talked before, I think even on this podcast, about the idea of toxic perfectionism, and how much that ruled the roost for me. I needed at that point It wasn’t just I wanted, it was like mentally I could not accept for myself putting out anything other than what I felt like this is exceptional, this is my best work to date. And while that is like a great motivator for a time, there comes a point where that is actively tripping you up and destroying your ability to deliver anything. I found myself more than ever staring at that blinking cursor thing, I have no idea what I’m doing. When in theory, I know more than ever what I’m doing.
I found myself falling into just patterns, the same tired ways of approaching things. My creativity went out the window because that felt like a risk. I was so worried that If I deviated from what I had done so far or if I moved away, if I took a really big swing and I whiffed on it, the stakes felt like, well, before I was playing in the little league and it was no big deal. If I whiff on this for this multi-billion dollar brand, well then that I’m ruined. And none of that is true. But I went through this whole, when you’re new to the game, the thing you fear most is critical feedback. Then you get in, for me anyways, kind of this groove where you’re not really getting that as much anymore. It’s like, I’m killing it. I’m doing great. And then you’re right back all of a sudden where you’re like, the thing you fear most is critical feedback because you feel like, well, they came to me for who this persona of me is, and this level of work is, and if I can’t deliver that, who am I, and why did they work with me, and all of this.
So I remember I was on retainer for this company, and some of the nicest folks in the world. And I remember just having to tell them, I’m hitting a wall mentally, and I’m sorry, and everything was coming across to them late, and they were thrilled with the work, but I became such a critic of myself that it started to inhibit my ability to deliver. And it was at that point where I realized, I think I’m in a place where I need to back away from the production to fall in love with something again, because I’m not loving the craft. I’m not loving the business side. I’m not loving the anxiety that’s coming with this. I appreciate the money, but I can, for me, I felt confident I can make money other ways now. I’ve learned enough that I can do other things.
And so at that point, it was like I just needed a change. And since then, I’ve learned a lot of really talented copywriters have gone through the same thing where they just needed to get out of production because they didn’t love it anymore. They weren’t enjoying it anymore. And then sure enough, everybody comes back around and ebbs and flows, right? It’s still a part of who you are. But I needed to take the pressure off. And for me, ironically, the risk of running a multi-person business felt like less pressure than trying to deliver continually at this, you know, I’ll call it elite personal level. I just, I needed to change things.
Kira Hug: What year was that roughly?
Joel Klettke: I think things are really coming to a head 2020, 2021, like again, right before the pandemic, you know, the last Full copywriting project I did. I’m still proud of it. They still have a bunch of the copy live. It was for a company called Era. It was a digital marketing agency out of the UK. I’m thrilled with the work that came out for that. And I think part of the reason why that project went so well is I was already treating it like my last hurrah. It’s like, this is my swan song for consulting and freelancing for a while. It gave me a definitive exit point. And so it took some of the pressure off. And I’m still really pleased with the lines that we came up with together there. And I think it’s done well for them.
Kira Hug: I was also going to ask what you’d recommend to someone who’s in that stage. I mean, you said it helped to do something else. I guess there’s always an opportunity to do something else. But some people might not be able to make that pivot quite yet. Are there any other alternatives that could help them?
Joel Klettke: I mean, we put so many artificial rules and barriers on ourself. The reality is like, you don’t have to, I mean, you can apply in so many different ways. I started doing, that was around when I started really leaning into the audit offer because I enjoyed that more. I liked the problem solving of diagnosis where I could then pass that off to someone to do the production and Run with it. You can decide in that moment, like, hey, for a month or for six months, I’m only going to do small business websites for three grand. Like you, you can decide. Right. The worst thing I think you can tell yourself is that you don’t have options because realistically you do. You have the years of experience and energy and effort and connections that brought you to that point. That’s not worthless, right?
And odds are if you have arrived at that point and you are delivering that kind of work, you are not just good at copy. You are not just good at content. There are, whether you realize it or not, other things that you are doing or delivering that you can lean into. If you are going to continue to try to do the exact same thing, In the exact same way, get a good therapist, I guess. I mean, connect with peers. Find some other people who are in a similar situation and talk about what you’re seeing. And if your nervousness is stemming from the fear of feedback or the fear that the work is not good enough, have friends that will evaluate it before it ever gets to the client, have people who will both cheer you on and show you where you need to level up. Because I think part of the thing that was isolating for me in that season two is we have the mastermind and we’ve got our group of friends, but everyone in that group was so busy doing their other amazing stuff.
I really lost a sense of community and then the pandemic obliterated it. And so suddenly I made myself an island. I have trouble being vulnerable at the best of times, maybe more so in the past, especially when I was in that very perfectionist stage. But that just ramped it up. And that was the enemy. When you’re in your own head, your only choices are to either switch what you’re doing or get out of your head in some other way by taking that work or that stress or those questions to other people who get it. And that’s the interesting thing too, is like, From the outside looking in, the people that you admire in the space have it all figured out, and they’re doing great, and they’re crushing it. I promise you that they’re all going through their own waves and tribulations of, am I even good at this?
Rob Marsh: Yeah, it’d be nice if there was a secret code for those who act like we’ve got it all figured out in some ways. would be us having figured it all out. So Joel, as I’ve watched you over, I mean, we’ve known each other now for seven or eight years, and I’ve watched you literally build two different kinds of businesses. One as a copywriter, I suppose, even stretching back as an SEO consultant before that, but as a copywriter who really gets to the top of his game, You’ve built this agency, this case study buddy agency that, again, feels, at least from the outside, like you have gotten to the top of your game. Is there a preference between the kinds of business? If you said, OK, and we kind of asked this question before, but you’ve lost everything, would you want to go back to being more of a copywriter? Would you want to build a product company of some kind? This is a really terrible way to ask the question, I guess, but how would you compare those options and what would you choose knowing what you know from doing both?
Joel Klettke: There’s some really important things I’ve learned that would inform that decision. I think number one, the season of your life matters enormously. Like had you asked me this question in my 20s, I still would have gone back to the individual business because the freedom that allowed me to travel and experience life in my 20s and not be accountable to other people, the ease of Cash, honestly, when you don’t have overhead, when it is just you, when the only person you have to look out for is yourself, that’s very attractive. And even now, right, if things were to close down tomorrow, I think there is a safety and a confidence that comes in knowing I can do it on my own. And that’s very attractive.
The honest truth is, I really believe if you want to make the most near-term money possible with the least amount of anxiety, consulting is the way to do it. Because you’re not worried about building a team and building out other processes. You have complete control over everything, what you say goes. And so it still remains very attractive. The difference for me now is it comes down to aspirations. Part of what I wouldn’t trade at all about the multi-person business side of things is we have an incredible team. The people that I get to work with and learn from and be humbled by and argue with and all of that, there’s a real community element to a business and growing something bigger than yourself. I make less now than I did consulting by a lot. a lot. Like in my, I have no problem, you know, talking numbers. This is not a flex, but like in my best years of consulting, I brought in, you know, about 300,000 Canadian. So USD helped me out a bit, um, with what I would call like serious.
Rob Marsh: Something like that. Yeah.
Joel Klettke: Um, but you know, like I don’t, I do not bring anything remotely close to that home. In fact, I’m grateful I had such fat years on the business casual side because it’s allowed for some lean and challenging years on the case study buddy side of things. When things really cooled off, 2022, November, October, in the B2B world, having that to know was there was huge. But the people aspect of growing a business, the opportunity for legacy, and honestly, just like, I think the hardest thing for me right now is I don’t really view myself as a copywriter anymore because there’s so much that I have learned outside of that craft. I can still do it. I’m still very confident I could sharpen my knives and go back and be an assassin in that space.
But I think I know more now. I can do more now. I’ve taken on, in my view, harder challenges now and more diverse. I’ve solved more diverse problems. And so for me, If I’m going to go into anything consulting, it’s not going to be as a writer. If I’m going to build something new, it’s a more linear application of the things I’m learning and growing and doing now. I feel like I can do and be more. I feel like if I was ever going to go in-house, I could legitimately be in the C-suite or I could be in a founding partner’s environment. I think for me, these days, the potential rewards of a multi-person business outstrip the flexibility of the consultancy, but I’ll tell you, if times ever got tough, man, am I glad that I could go elbows out and provide. It’s a wonderful thing to know you can fall back on.
Kira Hug: Yeah, I think that’s what allows us to take risks as copywriters and consultants. It’s like we can, we have that confidence that we can go back to it at any time if we need it, um, which is really nice. So you mentioned cooling off and you know, I think a lot of copywriters can relate to that phrase over the last year, especially 2023 was difficult for a lot of writers. So how did you deal with it mindset wise? Like how do you stay strong mentally, emotionally when, um, you know, the business turns and it’s out of your control in some ways. I know we always control something. How did you deal with that?
Joel Klettke: Let’s talk about the headwinds facing coveters now, especially if you’re in the B2B space. I think first, the one everyone, you know, the big elephant in the room is AI. And I don’t care who you are, if you’re not concerned about the impact of AI on the way that you do things, you’re not paying attention.
Kira Hug: It took us 40 minutes to mention it. So I’m proud of us. We lasted three minutes.
Joel Klettke: when some of the sharpest tools in the shed are concerned and talking about it, if you’re like, nah, this will blow over, you are an ostrich. You are an ostrich. Okay, there’s this whole AI giant looming in the corner, then there’s the economic conditions and inflation and companies cutting spend, and that rocked through end of 2022 all the way through 2023, and we’re still now seeing layoffs into 2024.
Now, that stuff does end. It doesn’t go on forever. And you can weather that storm very differently depending on your situation. If you’re a consultant you have or a copywriter, you can be very scrappy. You can change on a dime. You can redefine your offering. You can go after a new vertical. You can move very fast. The position that I found myself in is we’re not even a big company, but we can’t overnight pivot and be like, we’re now case study plus buddy. It’s not a thing. How do you weather it? How do you come out? I think the first thing is something I get right a lot and something I struggle with very much still, and that’s mindset.
An area I got that right is from the moment I first really mucked around with chat GPT, my posture towards it has been like, I need to be curious about this, informed and equipped, not terrified. And that has served me really, really well. Because you can shake your fist at the clouds, and humans are always going to be the best. And so you are an ostrich. You are not paying attention. Because AI doesn’t have to steal your job to change your job, or change the perception of your job, or change the process behind your job. And so approaching that with an air of curiosity and what if, as opposed to just shutting down.
In the early stages, I remember chats with Lianna Patch and just being terrified at seeing some of the things come out. It’s been like, holy cow. And we’re in the earliest iterations of this, and both of us have chosen curiosity, and both of us are better for it. So I think that’s one thing, is being curious about the potential as opposed to being terrified at the, I guess, the potential. You choose your posture there. I think, quite honestly, Navigating the slowdown has meant making harder and new decisions and trying to have a mindset of, this isn’t growth financially, but this is growth personally. I am learning and proving to myself that I can do hard things. It is never fun. I don’t care who you are, unless you’re some kind of psychopath. It’s never fun having to go to people and telling them, we don’t have enough work. We need to let you go. That’s never a fun conversation. It’s one I’ve had to have. It is never a fun conversation getting on a call with a client and all of a sudden, a relationship that was based on value is now being boiled down to a price point and that both neither side really has a say.
And so, some of the lessons I’ve taken away from this are things like always have more than one point of contact in a company. that knows you well because the number of people that got let go that were our primary people and then we had no voice in that conversation was harsh. It really hurt us. I think looking for ways you can be flexible without, you know, like what are your unbendable rules and where can you adapt for a season? I think that really matters. I think a bias toward action, again, you don’t want to overreact, but if you hold on too long in hopes, well, maybe it’ll turn around, maybe it’ll turn around, maybe it’ll turn around, like no, like act. It’s hard to make calls like we have to let someone go or we need to change the model.
But the longer you sit on it and stew on it, the more difficult it gets to ever make that call till you’re really painted into a corner. And then I think the other really hard lesson that I learned and continue to learn is we grew so much, so much under our own steam word of mouth. We had it made in the shade in terms of being one of only a small handful of competitors in the space. And so we had good name recognition. I had a good you know authority in the market you feel like that stuff is going to fill your boots forever it is not and so one of the regrets i have is not really investing in a good sales and marketing engine in the fat times because boy do you really, it’s much harder to stand that stuff up in the lean times.
And so, I’ve been humbled quite a bit by the reality of it does not matter how strong your market position is today, how much brand name equity you carry, how much authority you wield on social, when the rubber really hits the road and times get really tough, that is not going to carry you. And again, I’m grateful for that lesson because, for example, it got me doing things that I had never, never thought we’d be doing. Cold outreach, I was like, no way. I’m never going to touch that. I’m probably on the record being like, I’m never going to cold pitch my life. You can just build a business. Everyone comes to you. You can. That’s not going to last. So we got into cold email, for example. That was a humbling experience. And to see it actually work, was another humbling experience. Because like, yeah, here’s a massive bias I had that like, I was wrong. And so that I’ll close this rambling thought off with that, like, getting to a place in your career, some people comes really easy. For me, it did not where you’re okay, being wrong. Pretty important. Because the longer you you stay doggedly committed to your current perception of things, the more screwed you can find yourself.
Rob Marsh: So Joel, I’ve noticed over, maybe it’s the last four or five months, maybe it’s been going on longer, you’re doing some fun things with AI and image and your own personal brand. So I’m to the point now where if I see a black and red checkered shirt, a bald head and glasses, I know it’s from you, regardless of whether it’s on a Muppet or it’s in a stained glass or something else. Tell us, what are you doing with that? What are the tools that you’re using and why? Why are you putting your image in the Twittersphere or in LinkedIn so much?
Joel Klettke: Yeah. I always wanted to be good at art. Like I always wanted to be good at drawing. I always wanted to be good at like sculpture. My wife would say I give up too quickly. What I have is like, I have what I think is good taste. I know something’s cool when I see it, but if you leave it to me to visually create that thing, I admire designers so much because their brains are so deconstructive. They can take something that they see the end point of, break it down to its core elements, and then rebuild it. What a skill set. I don’t have that visually.
So knowing that about me, the thing that always held me back was the skill set, not the ideas, and I didn’t have time to cultivate it. And so one of the first things I got really interested in with AI was this whole incredible phenomenon of like, being able to generate a visual just from text. To me, that is still magic. For the religious folks in the room, the whole notion of God spoke it into existence and there it was, to me, this is, on a microcosm level, the closest thing you’re going to get to, not that we’re mini gods or anything, but to me, that’s just incredible. It’s mind-boggling that that’s possible. And so I started mucking around with it. I was like, well, what’s the potential? I was curious. What can I create? and I started playing around originally with Midjourney and I was pretty impressed by the crazy things that would come out and it was all kind of for a laugh I was like mostly creating stuff that was like outlandish or like characters for my kids and then I always wanted to have visuals for all my posts on LinkedIn, because it’s like free real estate. You might as well use it. It’s there. It can draw eyeballs.
So originally, if you look back at my posts, you’re going to see this weird hodgepodge of like there’s a Muppet funeral, and then there’s like monsters chasing people through the woods. I was just searching for like, what can I do here? And what works? And then I got curious. I started to see other people. on LinkedIn have these branded elements, like Ramli John, he has for his podcast, this pixel, you know it’s him the minute you see that thing. For the guys at Refine Labs, you know the aesthetic of their videos and that set up the minute you see it. I was like, can I recreate that feeling, but with AI? Can I build a personal brand out of AI generated imagery. And I needed to find, I was like, the problem that I have, I’m not, number one, I’m not good at this. Like I’m not a prompt engineer that I can like do weightings and like little pro like I, I needed the most brain dead simple thing.
And then Coincidentally, DALL-E within chat GPT rolled out and it blew my mind because for the first like mid-journey, you still had to treat like you were programming something. DALL-E was like, I could speak plain English and I could get something cool. And then I could refine it and I could get something great. And that was like the catalyst. I’m like, okay, I need some consistent elements. I can’t consistently generate my own face. Thankfully, I’m like a pretty generic white bald guy. So that works to my advantage. It was like, what repeatable elements could I bring into this? And that’s what I settled on is I’ve got this red plaid shirt that I’ve given talks in. I’m always going to be wearing black square glasses or something close to it. And I’m always going to be bald. Let’s bring those things in. And my thought was, I’m not going to go for photorealism. I’m going to go for styles where there’s a trick of the art that makes it believable that it’s me, whether that’s anime, claymation, a stuffy. There’s this acceptability factor of, yeah, that could be Joel. And do that enough. I thought maybe people will start to write, so I started testing it out. It took two weeks for people to notice. That’s it. after 14 days of consistently posting that people should say, I love the, like I tune in for the images and then I read the post. I’m like, that, that’s wild to me.
Um, so I’ve fallen off a little bit with keeping that up, but once I had like established it as like a person, then I now had the bandwidth where I could show like all white business shirts and then a red and plaid shirt hanging in the middle. And people who’ve been following me would make the connection. Like that’s, I get what he’s doing there. Or similarly, I could just take the base elements. It started full and then I started to take pieces away until it was just the shirt, just the glasses. Now, I’m getting to the point where I’m curious if I can just have plaid and see if it still connects. So, it’s been this whole experiment that’s been really fun. And AI has been a really cool tool for it because while I’ll never be able to draw or make art like that, and I have so much respect for the artists and we can get into the ethics of like who I’m technically stealing from as I do this, but that was the, that was the experiment. And if you take nothing else away from that, if you do something consistently 14 times in public, people will start associating it with you. Like it doesn’t take much. It really doesn’t.
Kira Hug: It’s such a great idea because I’ve messed around with so many different images using AI, but I didn’t think about, we’ve branded it for campaigns, but I’ve never branded it around my own identity. And that’s such a great way to show up. So I’m going to swipe that and experiment.
Rob Marsh: I’ve tried to swipe it. I don’t know. I’ve got the blue shirt, the blue collared shirt. I also have black glasses that I wear at least when I’m on camera. But I’m struggling with the – I don’t have the bald head. So the gray hair thing – You have short gray hair. When I play around with Mid-Journey, though, it keeps making me want to be Superman. And when I do it in Dali, it always gives me a beard. And it doesn’t, I’m just like, I keep pushing back.
Kira Hug: Because you should have a beard. You should grow your beard.
Rob Marsh: Maybe so. So I’m still in the learning stages, Jewel, but I’m looking forward to when people start to recognize whatever it is that I come up with.
Kira Hug: You need Converse sneakers, Rob. You need the sneakers in there.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, maybe it’s the sneakers.
Kira Hug: All right. So I want to go into burnout because I don’t want to not talk about that. And I going way back, like way back, you know, you had your trip and you can tell me what year to New Zealand. You took time away. And, um, I believe that was to just, you know, deal with some burnout and just focus more on life. I’m wondering how you deal with burnout these days, considering that you have this significantly larger company with all these employees that we’ve talked about. You have three kids now. That’s a change from last episode. So are there any habits, anything you can share with us that may help us deal with burnout?
Joel Klettke: Yeah. So that trip happened and that, you know, I, I continued to work a little bit through that period, but that was really, yeah, a moment of acknowledgement that just, there’s other things I want to do with life. I’ve worked really hard. I’ve earned the opportunity to like be fully remote and to take advantage of this. Um, And so we did that. I think burnout shows up in different ways for different people. And recognizing how it’s showing up in you becomes really, really critical. Because for some people, it’s overt, they feel it, they’re tired, they’re, you know, it’s it’s this cloud. I think one of the toughest lessons for me is realizing, especially with like a growing family, that burnout would come out as anger at times. And I’m not, you know, I never considered myself an angry person till I found myself in situations where I’m like, my response to what’s happening in this situation is so disproportionate to the situation. And it’s not acceptable.
Like I’m not okay with being this person right now. Um, And so I think I don’t have the novelty of just like dropping everything and going to New Zealand. Like you said, I’ve got a growing family. I’ve got a company that’s now reliant on, you know, not solely on me, but like I have a critical role to play. And so it took a lot of mindset changes for me. I grew up pretty, not like mocking of, but just like never felt like I would be the kind of person to get counseling. It’s like, that’s not really for me. I invested in it because I got to the point where I’m just like, I have friends, I have community to some degree, but I need somewhere to take this stuff. And so that was one of the things that I invested in that I think honestly, everybody, it’s the cliche, but everybody should. be in counseling at some point in their lives.
So I think looking at what resources are available to me in that way. I think transparently, burnout and stress and anxiety, it’s a really true to life thing right now. This is a very stressful period in the business. Some days I deal with it great, some days I don’t. I think I’m more aware as I get older. I’m 36, I’m not ancient, but I’m very aware of the mind-body connection at this point. We’re getting out and moving, prioritizing exercise, prioritizing walking. I started an adventure club with my kids to get us. We have a little ravine across from our place and we go try to spot animals down there. We hardly ever see anything, but we’re still waiting on the day that we, we, there have been deer and stuff. So they, they do exist.
I think my kids are starting to think I’m just tricking them, but. You know, like finding little ways to involve those around you in the way you cope with that, but in a healthy way. I’m not yelling at my kids, but Adventure Club is like a much better manifestation of like, hey, I need to get out and I need to just not do this thing. I think another key component to all of this is I’m married now and my burnout affects my spouse. Again, I’m not great or haven’t historically been great at being vulnerable or asking for help. I think just fostering that dynamic with Courtney and being able to say, I’m not doing great. This is not a good day for me. My headspace is off. Can we team up today?” You can imagine with three kids and her full-time momming, she has her own days of well-earned burnout. So nurturing that dynamic and being able to have conversations there, I think is really important.
Then coming full circle, I kind of alluded to this, but community is such a big thing. For years, I tried to loan Wolfit, then through the pandemic, a lot of the community I had got obliterated. you know, seeking that out. When you’re younger, things like going out to a local marketing drinks, you know, event just kind of feels like networking. These days, it feels a lot like therapy, because you’re meeting with people and you’re getting out of your day to day and you’re commiserating and you’re talking and even if you’re not drinking anything, or you’re just there for the people, which is largely where I’m at these days. There’s something to be said for just like changing your environment, changing your headspace, being amongst others who are going through the same thing and having those conversations and realizing like, it’s not the end of the world. It’s not just you. You know, that kind of thing. So it’s still a struggle. I think my anxiety and my blood pressure probably both higher than they’ve ever been. But finding healthier ways to navigate that is something I’m, you know, I’m committed to because I have people depending on me, both in the business and outside of it. So it’s important.
Rob Marsh: My question really is, okay, Joel, so what is next for you? You know, what are you working on? I know, um, case study, buddy, still a thing and still a huge part of your life. Um, but, uh, where else is your brain going?
Joel Klettke: Yeah. I mean, I’m in a season where, um, you know, like I said, I alluded to like, it’s, it’s a tough, tough market for everybody. If you’re on the outside, Looking at Case Study Buddy, the impression would be, I hope people feel like we’re a market leader, like we’re doing great work, but that can be true and you can still be struggling. Part of my duty, obligation, and drive is to put Case Study Buddy on a great path and keep it going. I don’t have imminent plans to leave the company or anything like that, but I think both Jen and I are pretty open about the fact that it’s not what we’re going to do forever, at least not the only thing we’re going to do. I think long term, there’s other things that I want to explore. I’ve cultivated this set of skills now over time in business building and in writing and in other areas that make me an asset to others building businesses.
And so I’m still, you know, it’s like the cliche, but there’s still courses that I would love to publish. There’s still work that I would love to do. Um, you know, I could see myself potentially, you know, I don’t, I don’t know what the future holds, but I could see myself working nicely with others who want to build. And, you know, I think the part of the business bone that I really love most is the beginning, laying the foundation, getting things going. I could see myself in a place where I’m partnering with some folks to build up businesses and brands and get them momentum. I think that’s the part that’s most exciting for me.
But I remain open to anything really. There’s still parts of consulting that excite me. There’s still parts of copy that excite me. And while I don’t think I’ll ever, I mean, knock on wood, you never say never. Well, I don’t think I’ll ever find myself in a full-time copywriting role ever again. I still want to write for fun. I still want to be part of crafting that messaging. I still want to take the tools I’ve earned through that period and apply them in different ways. So yeah, I don’t know what’s next, but I think where I’m at these days, where my head is at is more I like to build brands. I like to build companies. If I could be like the bald, less attractive Ryan Reynolds and be out there helping get things going, I think I’d have a lot of fun with that. And I think that’s something new is this desire in the future to prioritize not just what’s profitable, but also what’s fun. You get to live once and you don’t even know how long you get to do that, so you might as well enjoy it while you can.
Rob Marsh: The next image I’m looking forward to seeing you post in LinkedIn is going to be the Joel Klepke Deadpool crossover.
Joel Klettke: Yeah, he’ll be in plaid. It’ll be a plaid suit. I’ll have to find a creative way to get past the filters on that one, but I’ll give it a go.
Kira Hug: All right, so as we wrap, we’ve talked, you know, touched on AI. And I’d love to hear from you, your perspective on the future of copywriting, in terms of I guess, in terms of thinking about what we should do, what we should be prepared for, from your perspective, and maybe what we should consider more than what we have.
Joel Klettke: Yeah, my perspective on this is going to be different from others, so don’t just listen to me. I am firmly in the camp that we are early days on all of this, that it’s only going to get better, that the barrier to entry is only going to get lower, and that the output is only going to get stronger. You still need people to think, you still need people to decide, you still need people with experience and taste to know what is good and know what may perform, but the mechanical writing bit as a competitive advantage is only going to erode. more and more and more.
And while you can despair about that, and I certainly went through my own period of being like, but I spent so much time and energy learning, choosing to approach it through a lens of curiosity, and how can this accelerate what I’m doing How can I use it to iterate? How can I use it as an extension of who I am and what makes me a great writer as opposed to calling it the death of my career? I think what’s so interesting is people who get really good at writing, so many of them want to start teams and agencies. And what are you doing when you do that? You’re outsourcing the product side of it, right? You are assuming a strategy role.
Well, what difference is it if the person doing the writing as a person or a machine. So I’m in the camp, kind of in the same territory with the Stefan Georgis of the world, where it’s like, I think we are going to get to a point that the mechanics part of it, it’s not an advantage. It’s accessible to everyone. I think in many ways, we’re already there. I continue to be astounded. But in the same breath, I think the craft of copywriting is safe. I think It takes skill and talent and passion and devotion to understand why things work and why something might work. I think we continue to be surprised by what lands and there’s still this whole human psychology to it. There’s still this whole very intriguing, like what is it that gets a beating heart to respond to a written word that I think there is still so much of a playground there to be explored that just because AI might be helping accelerate the actual production doesn’t mean that the craft is over, the craft is dead.
I think the more you can be acting like a consultant and investing yourself in the curiosity of why does this work, the what if, the more you treat it like a playground and not a minefield, I think the more exciting life gets. Because realistically, if you’re writing ads for Google, you need coffee breaks and sleep. An AI doesn’t. It can churn out a thousand ideas. And while 998 of them will be awful, two of them will be great. It just needs a tiny margin. So Yeah, I still think it’s worth getting into the field. I still think it’s worth cultivating curiosity. I still think it’s worth honing the craft so that you can be someone who directs. next things to come. That’s where I sit. Others will disagree. They think we’re reaching the pinnacle of what AI can achieve on the written word and that there’s not that much further that realistically it can go. I don’t know anything about the technical aspects of that. All I know is today, I can ask a machine to give me a picture of a bald guy wearing glasses, riding a moose, and it can do that. And if it can do that now, I can’t even imagine what’s possible in 10 years. I’m not going to write anything off.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Joel Kletke. The first time that he was on the podcast, Joel gave us some advice that still resonates with me today. He talked about how if you can solve real problems for your clients, you don’t need to start out charging beginner rates, even if you’re just starting out in business. The value that you create is in the solutions that you bring to the table, not the years of experience that you have. Now, those are my words, not Joel’s, but that was the message that he shared, and you should definitely check out that episode. It was number 21 in your podcast feed.
It’s worth emphasizing one or two other things from today’s interview that stood out, at least they stood out to me. Talking about hiring, Joel said that you can do everything right in the hiring process and it will still not work out. This is such an important lesson and unfortunately, we all seem to need to learn it on our own. Even when we hear others say it, we almost always have to go through the process to internalize it. It’s so hard to just hear it and apply it. Good people are not always a good fit. They are almost certainly a good fit in other situations, though, and when you part with them, you give them the opportunity to find that better fit. Trying to be nice or overly patient, giving extra chances, that just prolongs the decision and it doesn’t make it easier. In fact, it actually makes it harder to do.
I also appreciate our discussion about growing your influence. That portion of this podcast is worth listening to at least twice. It’s not about the audience. It’s about your capability and your skills. That absolutely has to come first. We’ve all seen the 22-year-old life coach dispensing advice that comes across as ridiculous to anyone with a decade or two of experience, or the marketers and copywriters who, once they have a few clients, they immediately create a course that supposedly teaches others how to mimic their success. Just because you’ve done it once doesn’t mean that you can do it again and again, especially as situations change or as clients change. Spend a few years perfecting your craft, learning how to diagnose big problems for a variety of clients and creating solutions for them and doing it over and over enough that it becomes secondhand. Then go out and tell the world.
Now, I want to be clear. I’m not saying that you can’t share your journey or that you must wait until you’re a credentialed expert before you can develop a social presence or speak on stage or do any of those things to build your authority. Of course, you can do that stuff too. But the emphasis is on building your expertise and your capabilities. becoming the expert before you say you’re the expert.
Okay, thanks to Joel for joining us to chat about his business and some of the challenges that he’s worked to overcome over the last couple of years. If you wanna connect with Joel, the best way to do that is on LinkedIn. You can also find him on Twitter where he posts more fun and experimental stuff. He’s definitely worth a follow there. And if you wanna see what he’s created at Case Study Buddy or want to learn more about writing case studies, go to casestudybuddy.com where there are a ton of resources to get you started.
Just a quick reminder that The Copywriter Underground is the best place to find the resources and coaching you need to grow your copywriting business. You can learn more at thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU.
That’s the end of this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please visit Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to the show to leave a review.
Thanks for listening. We will see you next week.
Want to make your copy better? More persuasive? More conversion-oriented? The way to do it may be understanding the psychology of your reader. In the 381st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Csaba Borzasi who explained how he uses psychology to make his copy better. And maybe more importantly, Csaba also explained how he uses a scorecard during his prospecting calls that helps him close almost 100% of his prospects. This is definitely one you’ll want to stick around for.
Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Rob Marsh: When many of us start out as copywriters, we’re interested in the words. How do we organize them so that they sound right or so that they sound better? Which words should we use to communicate this benefit or this feature? Or which phrase will make the best call to action? But after a while, we tend to become less interested in the exact words, although they are still important, and we still do get a lot of joy out of writing them. And we become more interested in the psychology behind the words. We start asking questions like, which emotions should my reader be feeling as they read this? What beliefs do I need to shift? What do they need to know or think or feel in order to take the next step?
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club, and on Today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed Csaba Borzasi, a copywriter with extensive training in applied psychology and plenty of experience helping shift beliefs and with writing emotional copy.
Csaba shared how psychology applies to what we write every day. He also shared his process for diagnosing his client’s business problems that virtually guarantees that they’re going to ask for his help on a project. And by the way, this single bit of advice that he gives, this insight could be worth thousands of dollars in new work for you in the coming year. So you’re definitely going to want to make a note of it.
Finally, we talked about why his welcome sequence is nine months long. There’s some good stuff in this episode, so get out your notepad and your pen because you are going to want to take some notes.
Now, this is when I normally jump in to tell you all about The Copywriter Underground, all the copywriting business trainings that are in there, the monthly coaching calls, the weekly copy critiques, the community. If you’ve been listening to the podcast for very long, you’ve heard me mention all of those things over and over, and yet you still haven’t jumped in. Don’t wait any longer. If you’ve got plans to grow your business in 2024, visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and find out more about this vibrant community of copywriters who are working hard to do the same thing that you want to do. And now let’s go to our interview with Csaba.
Kira Hug: All right. So Csaba, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?
Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, so great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Well, I was basically born and raised in in the Transylvania region of Romania. So but I’m not a vampire, I promise. But as an ethnic Hungarian, actually. So it was a totally different culture compared to what you might consider conducive to becoming a copywriter, especially in English, especially on the U.S. market. Right. So basically, I like I always liked to read. I was always a little kind of like a black sheep in my family because they don’t even speak English, unfortunately. And they were always telling me, like, why are you learning English? Like, where are you going to use English? And I was like, no, no, no. But I can get better information this way. So I always loved getting information.
And then during my studies, I studied psychology, first business, then psychology. And then I landed a job at IBM, which was like the typical corporate job that everybody complains about. So I kind of, I think I’ve been there for more than a year, one and a half years or something. And then I felt like this isn’t for me. Then I became a direct salesperson for a wealth management company, a supposedly prestigious wealth management company, but turned out it was kind of a scam. Well, not necessarily a scam, but they were still ripping people off with stuff and there was lots of dodgy things going on.
So then I had a friend who was already doing copywriting, on Upwork and he said like, Csaba, you like psychology and I know that you like to read a lot, you like communication and persuasion and just studying it, so I think this could be a natural fit for you because you could combine marketing and business and psychology and I was like, but aren’t copywriters supposed to like do legal stuff, you know? the typical thing that some people think. And then he kind of showed it to me, like how it works and how he’s landing clients on Upwork.
And I was like, well, that’s pretty cool. So I gave myself two weeks to actually get as much info as possible on the topic and then start landing a client. And I think after like three weeks, I had my first client, which was a sex shop. So I really learned the concept of writing desire building bullets for all sorts of weird thingies. And that’s a story.
Rob Marsh: You’ve given us a lot. Yeah, exactly. Lots of options here. So before we jump into any of the history, there are a lot of people who want to be copywriters who do not start out speaking English. And America, Britain, Australia, they tend to be the biggest opportunities, the biggest markets for copywriting. So how did you bridge that gap? Obviously, you knew English before you started as a copywriter, which certainly helps. But what advice would you give to copywriters who are not necessarily native English speakers so they can polish that language so that it doesn’t show up, you know, the way that it often does and puts them at a disadvantage?
Csaba Borzasi: Sure, that’s a great question. Well, obviously, the better you are at English, the better it is and the easier it is to land clients, especially nowadays when clients are, I think, used to zoom calls or interviews or, you know, stuff like that. But ultimately, I think if you can convey that you’re easy to work with, you know what you’re doing, and you’re just you can solve a problem for a client. They just give you money and you solve their problem. And you start small. You are kind of like, you don’t have a big ego. I think it doesn’t necessarily matter that much, especially if you maybe bundle something else with just pure copywriting. Maybe you do email list management or something. Maybe you do the button pushing part. Maybe you set up sequences. Maybe you do A-B tests on landing pages or something like that. I think these things are relatively easy to learn and can give you like a one-two punch when it comes to landing those clients and them seeing you as more than just a vendor.
Kira Hug: So you gave yourself two weeks to land your first client when you sat down and you’re like, I’m going to be a copywriter. What were you doing during those two weeks specifically to then land that client?
Csaba Borzasi: So I mentioned that before this, I was working at a job as like a salesperson for a wealth management company and their whole pipeline of commissions. I was working based on commission. Everything took like three to four, maybe even sometimes five months. So for me, landing an appointment and generating a sale for them, it took like five months for me to actually get paid. And when I got laid off from there, they didn’t pay any commission. So I had lots of deals in the pipeline and it was just, that’s it, like we’re not going to pay you anything. And it was, I don’t know, like more than $10,000, which was a lot of money for me at that point, a lot of money.
So I basically had like one month savings. And that’s why I felt the natural urgency to do something, like I cannot just mess around with this. I have to make it work. So for two days, I started Googling. I went to YouTube. I tried to consume every piece of free, sometimes even paid, like lower priced information that I could. Fortunately, I didn’t land on like Dan Lok or, you know, someone like that who was selling copywriting at that time. But I landed, I found the Ben Savenga bullets, for example. I found the Boron letters. I found some stuff from John Carlton. Surprisingly enough, I found a Clayton Makepieces blog. And obviously, I realized that this is huge. I have to focus on one thing there.
And then I think I already had a knack for selling because, as I said, I was a direct salesperson before that. I was making like 50 cold calls per day, which I hated. But still, I mean, it gives you like a natural way to persuade people. And yeah, I think I was also fortunate enough a little bit because I, that friend that I mentioned in the beginning, he also gave me some templates like outreach templates and how to write your proposals. It still took some time and manual labor, but yeah, two, two, three weeks. And I was, you know, ready.
Rob Marsh: And since we’re talking about that first client, which was the sex shop, tell us a little bit about that experience and what it takes to, obviously, a sex shop has items for sale that are not necessarily boring, but you may have to talk around some things in order to sell them. So tell us about that experience and how you made the products attractive and turned that into additional assignments down the line.
Csaba Borzasi: As I said, one of the first things I read was Bencivenga Bullets, and the whole concept of bullets was new to me. So I started Googling, like, what are bullets? What are fascinations? And then I realized, oh, if you can write these desire-building bullets, they’re relatively useful everywhere, especially if you’re writing product descriptions. So what I did is that I got a bunch of products that I was supposed to write copy for, but instead of just giving the same boring description or something like that, like what most e-com businesses do, I wrote a little, like a three, four line. overview which was kind of like a unique selling proposition statement in a sense and then I wrote bullets and I added like five bullets for each of them.
Of course nowadays looking back those bullets are pretty like they’re not my best work ever especially since they’re like mega like they’re everything is pushed up to the limit, right? And I think a lot of beginner copywriters think the same way. It’s like, oh, Bullets have to be this big, amazing whiz-bang thing, and you have to sound like a bro, and you have to be super… huge promises. But still, they worked. So my client kept sending me more work. He kept paying me. And then I started landing more and more clients. I landed a watch brand. I helped him with the Kickstarter campaign. I landed some self-development people. I landed the guy who was selling photography services. So I started writing emails for him.
Then I landed some VSLs for like a manifestation course. So all sorts of different products and niches and audiences. And it was really exciting because each time I felt like, wow, I have to learn something new. Like I have to really change what I feel and believe about the world in order to be able to write copy for this.
Kira Hug: So what year roughly was this time when you were getting started as a copywriter?
Csaba Borzasi: It was 2017.
Kira Hug: Yes. Okay, 2017. And going back to what you shared about feeling like a black sheep, I think you said in your family or a community. I wonder if there’s certain ways that has helped you build your copywriting business and your skill set as a copywriter. Can you pinpoint any ways that that has showed up in your career so far?
Csaba Borzasi: Wow, that’s a great question. So I think growing up in rural Romania as an ethnic Hungarian, being discriminated against, and my whole family, nobody, even in my extended family was ever a business person. They were all, well, basically peasants, but I mean this in a good way, or manual laborers. My parents were engineers, to be fair, but before them, nobody even did intellectual type of work for anything. And that culture was very, like, obviously, lots of things were imprinted on me that made it harder to become a freelancer or to become a business owner later on. Because, for example, and, you know, Romania was part of the Soviet Union and there was this famous dictator called Nicolae Ceaușescu in Romania. So he had a very brutal secret police and It wasn’t like North Korea, but it was pretty bad.
So my parents, for example, they were socialized so that, you know, you have to be average. You cannot stand out because that’s dangerous. And that’s the thing that they constantly kept telling me. It’s like, don’t try to stand out. Be average. Be great. Don’t try to be unique. Don’t try to be loud. Don’t try to have like a voice or something. just, you know, fit in somewhere and just be invisible, which is great when it comes to 1970s Romania, but not so great in 2017 when you’re trying to brand yourself or when you’re trying to, you know, do all the things that are needed to better sell something. So this was the negative part.
But on the flip side, I learned lots of soft skills that I think were definitely a competitive advantage later on. things like the value of hard work, things like being a good conscientious person in a sense, things like having humility, things like being more patient than others, things like willing to go Let’s just call it under the client for a while in the beginning. And just deliver the best work I can, always deliver on time. Even before I read the pro code from John Carlton, which is like, you should do what you promised and deliver it on time and deliver it how you actually promised.
Even before that, I instinctively had the urge to do this. And I think this was definitely a competitive advantage because my competition were other copywriters who were flaky and who never, who disappeared. And I also like, you know, I’ve been in a reverse role when I hired copywriters or some other people who helped me with something later on. And I realized like, wow, it’s really hard to hire someone who’s decent and good and just, you know, doesn’t disappear.
Kira Hug: Yeah, I love that. And I, I guess as a follow up, how have you helped yourself stand out what you’ve done? And if you check out your YouTube channel, you clearly stand out and how you market yourself. But to go from, you know, what you were talking about what you shared about just London being visible and how you were raised to someone who is showing up in such a big way, like what helped you move from A to B?
Csaba Borzasi: To be honest, I had to do a lot of deep work on this. These things were ingrained in my core personality. I basically had to go to therapy to change some of these things. I participated in lots of other self-development things like group sessions and psychodrama. all sorts of other things which are considered therapy, but it’s not like the typical type of therapy that most people think, so that you go to a psychologist and you talk, like body work or a birthing therapy or something like that. So I was always into self-development, to be fair, but this definitely helped a lot.
And also my then girlfriend, now wife, is a psychologist, is a therapist, and we could really talk a lot about these things. So I always had an affinity for psychology, but more like the applied psychology part, applied cognitive psychology. That’s where I learned. And she is more like the therapist type of, like the integrative hypnotherapist type of person. So all these things, plus time, plus, you know, just crawling through the mud and just getting there step by step, not trying to take too many shortcuts, because early on I realized that there are no shortcuts in reality. You do have to do the grunt work. You do have to face rejection. You do have to be scammed by some clients. It’s part of the game, I would say. And I think all these things ultimately made me stronger because I didn’t give up.
Rob Marsh: You mentioned the psychology behind it. You know, as I think about the resume that you shared, Csaba, you almost have like the perfect resume to become a copywriter. You studied business, you studied psychology, you had a job in sales, like all of the things that we do as copywriters, it seems like, you know, nature, the world, whatever was preparing you for that opportunity. Will you talk a little bit about, in particular, the things that you studied in psychology, applied psychology, and how you use that today in your work as a copywriter?
Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, so obviously there were lots of theoretical models that I studied, which 80, 90% of them I don’t really remember, but it still gave me lots of belief shifts when it comes to how the world, including the human mind, works. And I was always curious. I would say one of my biggest goals in life is to get as close as possible to understanding how the world, including the human mind, works. So I constantly learn, even nowadays. I constantly, constantly love learning. And I think eventually if you keep at it, you naturally find analogies between things.
You naturally discover connections between, oh, I learned that about like motivation, intrinsic motivation during my university studies. And I see how if people realize that they are the ones who are making the decisions to buy something, they convert better compared to you trying to force it on them. Or if you want to do a crossroads close, for example, which is a technique I learned later on, in which you give people different options at the end of a sales letter, for example. It made me realize like, oh, OK, so again, it’s tied to intrinsic motivation more. It’s tied to that people feeling like they are in control and they are in power.
Or another example would be, a sense of purpose, like if you tie your offer to making an impact in the world or trying to change the lives of someone or some people, it’s much more powerful compared to not stimulating this deep sense of purpose in people.
Kira Hug: What else can we do to instill that feeling of the prospect making their own choice on a sales page or in our copy. What else have you done specifically to help them feel that way and in control?
Csaba Borzasi: There’s a lot of things there when it comes to the first part of like a campaign or a message. I think the belief shifting part is really important because everybody, especially nowadays, lots of audiences have a really high stage of market sophistication, which means they’ve been exposed to lots of offers before, lots of marketing. And they’ve probably failed many times before. And this is especially true in like the weight loss niche or the biz op space where, you know, people get sold a dream, but they fail constantly. So there’s a lot of baggage. There’s a lot of shame and negative emotions tied to that.
So if you can shift those beliefs and like Dan Kennedy has this thing called the sequence of nine agreements, which is basically sub beliefs that you have to stimulate. It’s like you know, how is this applicable to me? Is this personally attainable? Is this attainable in the first place? Can I actually do it? You know, it’s not your fault. And why is it like a timely manner to do something about this right now? If you can shift those things, And you get to the one buying belief, which is a concept that Mark Ford, I think, was the first one to talk about, and then Todd Brown and people like that. They will really feel like, yes, now I understand why Csaba’s solution is different and superior compared to anything I’ve seen before.
And it’s the key to my number one desire. And then they will feel like there’s no other option. And I realized why I have to do this. It’s not like he’s pushing it on me. He’s just extending an invitation. my way to join him in a program, for example. So obviously, it’s way harder to do in practice than this, but I would say this is something that’s really important, in my opinion, when it comes to giving people more power in this. And that’s also why I think That super high, aggressive, pushy marketing is starting to work less and less nowadays because people are just so sick of it.
And there’s so many fakes out there, especially now in the age of AI, especially now in 2024. I think there’s going to be some really high level and high profile deep fakes this year, especially around the election, maybe even. So people want that authenticity, that human touch more and more. And if you can do that, I think you have a competitive advantage.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree 100%. Let’s go back to your job journey or your career journey. You had a bunch of clients. How have you gone from experimenting with a bunch of clients to what you’re doing today?
Csaba Borzasi: So I think I’ve worked with more than 70 clients over a course of five, six years, all sorts of people in all sorts of niches. For a while, I specialized in launch copy for people who were launching courses. And then I landed. I landed a YouTuber client with like a huge following. He had like 2 million subscribers and we actually partnered on a course once.
And then I realized, so I was basically the one writing all the copy, sorry, and creating the promotions for it. I even wrote, created a webinar, everything. And it didn’t really perform that super well because later on I realized that we were selling to lots of freebie seekers and everything was angled towards like super beginners. But still, it was pretty cool, and that’s when I realized writing for clients is good, but as Gary Halbert had a famous hat, all clients suck. And eventually, You get tired of writing.
I think when you write really impactful copy, you have to sacrifice a part of your soul. And it’s really like you’re trying to manifest a new life in the world, and you have to sacrifice something for that. And it takes a lot of… you know, out of you, if you really get into it and come up with the big idea and everything.
So to me, it feels like it’s my baby, like when it comes to a big promotion. So I started feeling like, what if I started doing this for myself? And that’s when I started, I think it was 2020. Maybe when I started my email list and then I started experimenting with my own products and I had some mixed results because then I realized, well, problem is I have to learn more things about business. I have to learn things about like business strategy and traffic and building stuff, which is in a sense, way more comprehensive than just being a copywriter and handing people a Google Doc. And here you go.
But still, I think it’s a different journey. It’s an integral part of a lot of copywriters’ life, I would say. And I have lots of copywriter friends who go through the same journey eventually.
Kira Hug: What does it look like today? So is it solely focused on your own products, or is it a combination of working with clients here and there, and then your products? Does it change from quarter to quarter?
Csaba Borzasi: It’s mostly a combination. So primarily it’s focused on around my email list. So I really, I kind of have like the Ben Settle model in a sense. So it’s an info publishing business and I have my own products, which is either, it either serves copywriters or business owners. These are the two big segments, smaller business owners, coaches, consultants, experts who sell some sort of transformational information product. But I also work with clients, just not in a done-for-you way. So I consult with clients, I do done with you, or I coach others, like copywriters or, you know, people, different people. So I would say it’s a hybrid and it’s evolving, of course, all the time. But yeah, I think that’s how it is.
Kira Hug: Could you talk a little bit more about the consulting and the done with you? Maybe less about the copy coaching just because we’ve covered that on the show, but especially for writers who are ready to make a shift in their business and stop doing done for you copy, how can they approach consulting and think about it and sell it? Yeah, sure.
Csaba Borzasi: I think if you want to do them for you, that’s very lucrative. But again, after a while, you get capped, like how many projects you can take on and you get burned out. You can easily burn out. But what I like to do is I have something called a Rapid Lead Activation Assessment, which is It’s basically a 20 minute get to know each other call in a sense, but it has a deliverable. And the deliverable is that, hey, I asked you a bunch of questions and I’m going to diagnose your business. We’re going to discover the biggest potential leaks that you have. and how to potentially fix them and if it makes sense for us to and if I can actually help you like it doesn’t even have to make sense for us to work together but if I can help you then we’ll schedule another call one hour call which is a game plan call and this is basically, I just strategize some things for them.
There’s something called the Rapid Lead Activation Scorecard, which I go with them through the scorecard. It has nine different dimensions based on how well their business is doing in the first 30 days of their welcome sequence, their email nurture, their landing pages, their lead generation, stuff like that. And based on that, I put together a customized game plan for that. And at the end of that, it’s a very natural transition to an offer, which is like, hey, would you like me to help you implement this? And most people usually say yes because like nobody else does something like, I mean, not nobody, but not many people do something like this.
A lot of people want to like high ticket close them aggressively. But this is like more hands off. This is like, hey, I genuinely want to give you value. And I actually got testimonials like video testimonials from people which are basically sales calls technically. because they’ve gotten so much value out of it. So that’s how I structure it. And then currently, I engage in one-on-one work with them.
So it’s like, hey, for three or six months, let’s work together. This is how the program looks like. And it’s mostly customizable, because based on what I diagnose for them, I can put together a modular thing for their situation specifically. Um, but I’m, I also like working in a sense on like a higher end group program as well, because, uh, again, it’s, it’s, it’s, uh, it’s a flawed business model in the sense that you have to cap the number of clients you can realistically work with.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. I want to go deeper into your scorecard. I’d love to see or even watch one of those calls because I want to see what are the things that you’re diagnosing people doing and how that works. I’m curious, as you go through that process, what’s the biggest challenge for you in either reaching out to more clients or on those calls with those clients so that it turns into work in some fashion.
Csaba Borzasi: To be fair, 99% of these people are inbound leads because what I do is that I try to get everybody on my email list and then there’s lots of conversational invites to these types of things. So I like to do something similar to what Dean Jackson does with the Ten Word Emails and with like PSs and sometimes like Some people call this, I think Kevin Rogers calls it the wanted poster, which is like, hey, next month I’m looking to work with three more people who want to get this primary promise. Here’s what I’m looking for. If that’s you, hit reply and let me know.
And then. I qualify them later on, so I ask a bunch of questions because, of course, especially when it comes to creating copywriting-specific content, obviously you’re going to get lots of newbies and wannabe copywriters who are very eager to reply to everything, but they obviously don’t meet the criteria for this. So I specify that you have to have a validated offer, you have to have at least 700 people on your email list, you have to have some sort of revenue already, you have to be willing to start a conversation and continue a conversation, and you have to be willing to start now if it makes sense.
So if they qualify, that’s when we get on the first call and then the second call. And the conversion rate on these calls is really, really high because they really have to qualify before they get on this. And I think it also shifts the whole frame of the conversation. It’s not like, oh, dear client, I’m trying to close you here. But instead of like, they’re grateful because they can get 20 minutes of my time to focus on their specific business. and then one hour of my time as well so one and a half hours of time so the challenges with this are like the number of people so obviously this way your You’re disqualifying lots of people who you might be able to close later on. But my philosophy is that less, but higher quality, because those clients will give you less headaches and they are going to implement way more. So it’s definitely something I’m looking for. And even this way, it’s super hard to actually get them to implement everything.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, no doubt. Maybe a follow-up question or a better question would be, what are you doing to grow your list so you’re getting the right people so that when you make those offers, you know, it’s hitting them in the right place?
Csaba Borzasi: So that has been a big challenge for me for a while because I’ve always considered myself a conversion guy. My whole brand is called Game of Conversions. And I was like the guy that does stuff after people, after you have the leads. But I had to learn that, you know, traffic is also super important. So right now I’m experimenting with multiple things. Obviously, I have the content library on YouTube and on my blog, which is relatively evergreen, very evergreen, I would say, but it attracts mostly copywriters.
So that’s why I recently wrote a book, The Rapid Lead Activator, which is basically a short practical book aimed at business owners who want to create like a kick-ass follow-up campaign to new email subscribers. And it’s specifically details like how to build know, like, and trust, how to identify the so-called five-star prospects without burning out others, how to maximize the chances of them converting later on. So it’s not about like buy now, but instead persuading them. And one of the strategies I’m doing right now is JV partnerships with people. So I’m looking at others who have similar lists and we either do a freebie swap or we do some sort of JV engagement. Well, obviously, podcasts like this also help. I’m also doing ads now, Facebook ads, very low touch. So it’s not like I don’t want to act as like a media buyer, but it’s kind of like a fire and forget type of like $20 per day ad. And I also plan on doing more content, more email specific content too, because I still think that content is the best traffic source.
Kira Hug: So if I want to become a better consultant or just get into consulting, To begin with, you shared a little bit about your process, but it sounds like the structure is diagnosing, giving them a scorecard, identifying the problem. They pay for that. Then you sell them on, okay, I can solve this problem with you. And then is that a six month container? And how can you give us more information as far as like, is it meeting twice a month and you’re giving them the next homework assignment? I know some of this you’re customizing. And also, I’m just wondering about pricing, rough pricing too.
Csaba Borzasi: So to be clear, the first call and the second call are free. The price for them is to actually qualify for it. So they don’t have to pay anything at all. What happens after it? What happens after it? It’s really unique for each person so far and it’s constantly evolving. For a while, I did three-month engagements. And it was like a series of 12 calls, so one call per week. And there’s something I call the implementation cycle, which is kind of like a built-in accountability mechanism that I was doing for them. But basically, we met on calls weekly, they gained assignments. If I felt like they need access to some of my courses or certain modules in my courses, they also got access to that without overwhelming them with other stuff. So it’s kind of like a hybrid type of thing.
But what I realized is that not that many people actually do everything in just three months. Three months is not a lot of time for business owners, especially when sometimes we’re talking about a total makeover. So when it comes to the scorecard, Rob was asking about the scorecard. One of the things that I ask about is like the target market, like how confident you are that you are targeting the exact, you have a deep understanding of your market, including their deepest pains, fears, hopes, and dreams. That’s like a 12 on this scale. A one would be you cater to everyone. It’s like, oh, my target market is males and females aged 18 to 65. Thank you. So that’s that’s not a market. Then we talk like the other one is like your core offers, your messaging, your lead flow, your lead activation, your short term sales process, long term sales process. So I think if we go through this process together on the second call, the one hour call, and I also show them this visually, people are so blown away by it and they get the game plan right there. My job after that is to just help them implement it and say, hey, go look at this training or this module and here are some potential swipes that you can use and try it. And then next week we look at it and we propose ways on improving it, for example. All in all, long story short, for a while I was doing three months, but now I’m experimenting with six months. And then we meet two times a month because I discovered that many times people need at least two weeks to actually do that and implement.
Rob Marsh: That makes sense. And as a quick follow-up, what are you charging for that engagement?
Csaba Borzasi: That’s also very malleable. So I try to charge based on value. And one of the qualifying questions I ask before the first call even is how many people you have on your email list and like what stage of growth are you in with this company? Is it like under 50K, under 100K, under 500K, under a million, more than a million? And based on that, there is some slight variation. And I’m also thinking of doing like more risk reversal type offers where it’s like you only pay this much, but then there’s a bonus component and like all sorts of other things. So it’s malleable. But I would say in general, it’s between like $5,000 to $10,000.
Rob Marsh: You mentioned, Csaba, that content is the best traffic source. I love that idea. I think you’re 100% right. Besides your email list, where are you producing content that starts to generate traffic for your business?
Csaba Borzasi: Unfortunately, right now, I’m not. My email list, I actually have some sequences which are half a year long. sending out emails two or three times per week. So I really need to start repurposing this on my blog. And I also start to repurpose my long form videos on YouTube into shorter videos. It’s one of my weaknesses. It’s still hard for me to properly delegate. That’s the problem. And this also comes from my upbringing, which is like, Nobody ever delegates anything because, like, who does that in that culture? So, you know, I’ve made some progress.
There was a time during which I hired an SEO agency, for example, or like people helping with my videos, editing it and stuff like that. But I need someone, something more specific for that. But I would say YouTube is my primary source source still. The cool thing about my content is that it’s evergreen. And that’s definitely a tip I would give to copywriters or people who want to start being authority building content is I know that the current fads are super exciting, but do something evergreen. And you can’t really get more evergreen than, you know, reverse breaking down copy from the old school titans of direct response copywriting.
Kira Hug: So who is on your team right now? Is it just you right now on your team?
Csaba Borzasi: As like a salary people? Yes. I do have a few freelancers that I work with from time to time. Uh, but, but my philosophy is try to automate as many things as possible and creating systems, uh, that actually cut back a lot of time that I would have to spend on that. But this is something that I definitely have to work more, more on.
Kira Hug: Yeah. And so what else, you know, at this stage that you’re at now where you have consulting offers, you’ve built a good reputation, you have your own products, like what, what else are you struggling with now? And what is, what is the next level look like for you? What are you working towards and what are you struggling with beyond a little bit of what you shared around just needing more support?
Csaba Borzasi: So, um, So as I said, I want to launch more like a higher ticket group thing because I think I can deliver much more value that way to more people. And it’s a better deal for everyone. But my mental limitation in this is that Oh yeah, but what if I launch it first and then, you know, I get three people and then there’s a lot of work that goes into properly delivering stuff for that. So that’s something that eventually I have to break through anyways. The other thing is this delegation part. So I’m sometimes, I often feel like I can do everything myself and I enjoy it. Like I really enjoy building out stuff and geeking on like advanced email automations and stuff like that. Although it might not be the best use of my time, to be honest, in pure business growth perspective. But I do enjoy it.
So it’s something cool for me. And the other third big thing is that I recently became a father. So I have an eight-year-old daughter. She was born in May, so at the end of May in 2023. And that has been quite the challenge to properly switch between all these roles of like a father, a husband, someone who tries to grow a business, copywriter, someone who’s genuinely curious about the world. And I want to understand what are things that are happening in the world in terms of like geopolitics and everything. As an introvert, that’s also difficult because there’s always like sounds everywhere. And, uh, and, you know, obviously the baby is crying many times and just- These are so loud.
Kira Hug: They’re so loud. We forget all these roles that we, you know, embody and it’s just a lot. And so how, how do you, how are you adapting to all these new hats that you’re wearing?
Csaba Borzasi: Yeah, I mean, it is difficult. I just have to say it up front. I started implementing deep work sessions. So before that, life was easy because my wife went away. During the day, I had eight, 10 hours of uninterrupted time to work. I was working from home. I still am, but in a different area. So it’s a relatively well-isolated area. So I don’t really hear noises during now. even if I just go out, you know, in the kitchen or to the bathroom or something, and I still have my thoughts with me, my deep thoughts, but it’s like, oh, could you please pick her, pick up Helena, my daughter, or just change diaper or something, which I then obviously want to help, but it totally gets me out of that flow state.
So all these little, could you help me for one minute type of things, which again, I understand because my wife is, you know, doing a lot of work during the day. So this is definitely difficult. One thing that I am doing that helps is I’m spending more time trying to actively rest before I get burned out. So especially after reading a few books from Dan Sullivan, especially 10x is easier than 2x. It really shifted my thoughts about this. And I realized that you have to preemptively rest both mentally, or at least try to mentally, physically and emotionally, because otherwise, when the time comes that you feel that now I have to rest, it’s too late. So that’s one thing.
The other thing is I implemented almost uninterruptible times throughout the day. Usually it’s between like 10 a.m. to 12. So it’s like noon in which I do Pomodoros, like three Pomodoros, and nobody can interrupt me. That’s the time in which I write my emails or do some really high, high impact stuff. And that’s the other thing. The third thing is just adapting. I would say time heals everything. And also, weirdly enough, it made me more productive overall, because now I know, I feel like, okay, I only have this much time to get things done. And And I have to do it.
And also I joined like a higher level coaching program myself, which really helps a lot because there’s lots of accountability there. And we’re working in six week sprints in six week projects. And there’s a very specific thing that I’m working on every six weeks when it comes to like the traffic part or the conversion part or the offer part. And I don’t have to spend a lot of time trying to figure out, trying to strategize what to do next. My coach basically does that for me and that’s really helpful.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, having a mentor is a game changer, for sure. Before we finish up, I want to make sure we talk about your book. And I also want to mention, you said that you have this lead magnet sequence that’s a year long. I went through my inbox and just was looking at it. So I got on your list, maybe it was a year and a half or so ago, a little less than that. And I was just counting up the number of emails in that sequence. It took, I think, from January to July to get through the 50 sales page reviews. And then there’s some other ones I think you’ve added since then. It’s like a nine-month sequence, which I think a lot of people would be, that’s kind of nuts in some ways.
Kira Hug: Nuts in a good way.
Rob Marsh: Yeah. I mean, it’s nuts in a good way. What do you see the results as people make it through that sequence? How many people drop off early on? How many people make it through like I did, where I see, at least I think I made it through, I see the end. And then I want to ask you about your book.
Csaba Borzasi: Sure. That’s a good question. I should do a better job tracking stuff, but I just opened up my ConvertKit and And I’m gonna check out, you know, open rates and stuff like that for the sequence. Honestly, I don’t know, but I’m gonna know in a sense. So in the beginning, I would say average open rates are like 50%, 50, 40-ish, something like that. And click-through rates are around five to six, maybe seven. At around the halfway mark, so this is after like, three months, and they are getting two emails per week in this sequence. I also send them other emails, but this is just a specific extra sequence. So after that, I see that things stabilize at around 33, 35% open rates and about 1.5% click-through rate, 1.52% click-through rate.
Rob Marsh: Okay, so from above average to average. Yeah, something like that. And if I’m not mistaken, is it 80 issues long?
Csaba Borzasi: Well, it’s not finished exactly, so there are like 55 plus like eight more after it, but You know, it’s only like until 55, you have one issue for every single one. After that, there are some some pauses in that. So between like 55 and 67, there’s nothing. And the reason why is because I originally wrote these emails in real time when I was doing it was part of my ritual when I was doing the hundred day proven sales that are breakdown challenge. So I just repackaged these emails into this sequence.
Rob Marsh: Anybody who wants to understand what we’re talking about needs to get on your list and sign up for it, which we’ll link to in the show notes. But yeah, go ahead and finish what you were saying.
Csaba Borzasi: So I just wanted to say that there were some days originally when I did the challenge in which I didn’t have time to actually write an email about it to promote the videos themselves. I still did the videos and uploaded them on YouTube, but I never really feel those missing emails even since then. I know I should, but I think if somebody watches or reads like 50-ish emails from me in this sequence alone, they might not going to mind missing five emails later on or something. And it’s everything there on YouTube anyway. So these are just basically like call to actions to, hey, go and watch the video.
Rob Marsh: My only other question is I just want to mention the book because you generously shared it with, I think with your list, or at least you shared it with me. And as I was going through it, I had a couple of ideas, things I wanted to change on my welcome sequence. So, you know, tell us a little bit about why you wrote the Rapid Lead Activator book And you kind of already talked about what was in it, but tell us just sort of the why behind it and how you’re using it in your business.
Csaba Borzasi: Sure. So I wanted the new Lead Mammoth, which is aimed more at business owners and which is super evergreen. I’m a big fan of the principle fundamentals and evergreen stuff. And early on, when working with clients, I realized that many of them didn’t really have properly optimized welcome sequences, which is like, it’s the first sequence you should create. And I think a lot of copywriters have the curse of knowledge when it comes to this, because they feel like, oh, everybody should have that, right? But surprise, surprise, a lot of businesses don’t really have this, or they created something five years ago, but they never really updated it. And it doesn’t have proper offers. And it’s just like, a lot of people look at it like, oh, I’m going to send them four content emails and one sales email, and that’s it. And if nobody buys, but in reality, it doesn’t work like that. So there’s a lot of other stuff that you can optimize. And the whole book is about this. It’s like, how can you imprint someone onto yourself as if you are a little duckling, and the first thing you see is the mama duck, and you kind of start following them cutely in the water. That’s what I wanted to do with this book.
And actually, I created a course before the book. It’s called the Profitable Imprinting Sequence, which is like the first 10 emails. And it’s like a more comprehensive thing. And this is originally based on an idea that I got from reading something from Gary Halbert, like imprinting people onto you. which again shows that there aren’t that many new things under the sun. People, even modern day gurus, they’re just rehashing and they’re just repackaging old school stuff. Sometimes they’ve done it down because they have to, but it’s a good example of why it’s still worth studying the old school masters. So when it comes to the book, I wanted to design it from the onset as like a lead generation book.
So it’s not like 300 pages long, it’s 80-ish and there’s big types. So you can read it in one hour. And I wanted to optimize for people actually consuming it and to give them the biggest chance of actually implementing it and them seeing results. Because then they realize that, oh, okay, if I got so much value from this Csaba’s stuff, then it might be worth answering his call to action and scheduling an assessment call with him. And the call to action at the end of the book, which is ultimately like an education-based long-form sales letter, Gary Bencivenga style. But it’s really powerful because if people consume it, they’re pre-framed, their belief shards are shifted, they’re going to show up on calls, they’re not going to ghost after that. And I think this is more powerful than just trying to convert them in like a sophisticated high-pressure funnel.
Kira Hug: So if we want access to that, will we drop a link in the show notes? Do we have a link to share with listeners?
Csaba Borzasi: So just go to gameofconversions.com rapid-lead-activator. So it’s like Game of Thrones, but gameofconversions.com-rapid-lead-activator. And again, it’s a highly, highly practical book. give you an elegant new way to get better clients faster and just start, you know, building more know, like and trust with them. And the cool thing about it is that I really like I’m eating my own dog food with this book because I also included my own welcome emails in the book. It’s like, hey, this is how I’m doing it. And check out email number one. And this is what’s happening here. And here’s the example. So people actually have an opportunity to read my welcome flow in the book. or in the emails themselves. There are two ways there, which is a little bit kind of like a parallel welcome sequence that Daniel Throssell uses, for example. And there’s also some copy-paste templates as well.
Kira Hug: Awesome. All right, well, my last question for you is, you know, with your black sheet perspective, I love your opinion on the future of copywriting for us all as copywriters. Like, what does it look like to you? Are you optimistic about the future? How do you feel about what’s possible for all of us as writers over the next, not decade, let’s not go that far out, over the next three to three years?
Csaba Borzasi: I love the question, but it has so many layers and I want to keep it short. So obviously the big elephant in the room here is AI, like what happens with AI, because it’s almost impossible to figure out what’s going to happen in five years, especially when it comes to generative AI. Primarily, I think that copywriters who can use AI to boost their productivity, to generate better ideas quicker, and just use it as kind of like an assistant, like an employee, in a sense, they’re going to see more success. People who don’t engage with AI at all, and they’re not willing to learn copy really well, they are just out of the game. I think they could take it.
There are other make money opportunities, but I don’t really like to look at copywriting as a biz op. A lot of people, especially people who subscribe to my list, they feel like, oh, I want to, you know, make so much money with copywriting, but it’s like, Slow down there, buddy, because it doesn’t work like that. You can’t expect to become a good doctor in two weeks. It takes years. And the same thing with copywriting. So I think what’s definitely going to be very important is to is to know what’s good copy and what’s not good copy and how to architect a campaign. And for that, you still have to put in the work and you still have to go through the courses or the coaching programs or the books. You still have to study Eugene Schwartz. You still have to read Breakthrough Advertising. You have to understand this because without that, what do you have? You have some prompts and that’s it. And you’re going to sound just like every other agency or every other robotic copy out there. But an interesting trend that I started noticing is that there’s already a lot of backlash against AI. And Ben Settle, for example, Daniel Throssell, Ross O’Locklin, these people who have email-based businesses, they kind of they’re forming like the resistance when it comes to AI, um, which I also see a lot of opportunity in because, uh, as with everything else, technological, especially when the world is very chaotic and where like, there are so many potential dangerous things happening in 2024. what happens in these times, in problematic times.
People choose a side. They’re going to be like, I’m either progressive or I’m either anti-AI. It’s like with religion, right? The most hardcore, the most Hardcore beliefs in religions happen when there are lots of wars, there are lots of potential problems in the world. And I think there’s going to be a huge population, a huge segment of the population, who by principle are going to hate things generated by AI. And they’re going to say like, I want a copywriter who doesn’t use AI. I want human-centric only. So I think there’s going to be multiple niches when it comes to this. Obviously, the biggest thing is going to be the ability to adapt. If you can adapt to whatever happens and you keep an open mind and you try to improve by 1% every week, you’re still going to have a competitive advantage over everybody else. So that’s, that’s my advice.
Kira Hug: I feel like that last answer opened up. We could have a go for another hour talking about and unpacking that answer, but we won’t, we won’t do that to you. I know. That was a great response. I just have, like, now 100 questions I want to ask you about that.
Rob Marsh: That was a lot going on with AI. Yeah, we’ll have you come back and we can talk about how people are using it effectively in their business. Thank you, Csaba, for sharing so much about your business. We appreciate it. Thank you.
Csaba Borzasi: It was my pleasure.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of this interview. Now, I usually like to mention two or three things from the interview that really stuck out to me, and I’m not going to make an exception today. First, what Csaba shared about psychology is really important. As a copywriter, you need to do more than write words. You need to understand the mindset of the people that you’re writing to. Obviously, this takes a lot of research. You need to understand what motivates them and what spurs them to action. You need to understand the dominant emotions that your product and your copy makes them feel. or the dominant emotions that they feel before reading and how you’re going to shift their buying beliefs. This goes way beyond persuasion tactics like urgency or consistency that most of the so-called experts talk about. Yes, those things are important, but really understanding your reader takes a lot more than that. We have some resources to help you get started with that in the Copywriting Mastery Program, as well as in the Copywriter Underground when you’re ready for them. But applied psychology is truly a game changer when it comes to writing compelling copy that converts. So don’t ignore this part of your business.
Second, Csaba mentioned a few resources that he found as he started out as a copywriter, things like the Bencivenga Bullets and the Boron Letters. We’ve linked to a lot of these resources on a page on our website. It’s actually the most popular page on The Copywriter Club website. We have more visitors to this page than any other. You can find it if you Google the Copywriter Club and then Ultimate Resources, or you can just visit thecopywriterclub.com and click on the resources link in the menu. Many of those resources are free and they’ll get you started thinking about many of the ideas that Csaba shared today.
And finally, Csaba talked about his scorecard. This is something that very few copywriters do. Obviously, we talked about this with Csaba during the interview. Yes, we do have questions that we ask on prospecting calls, but we rarely share the completed scorecard or the diagnostic with our clients. And you should. It’s a game changer. It does a couple of things for you as a copywriter, as a professional, as a freelancer, as a consultant. It demonstrates that you know exactly what you’re doing because not only are you asking questions, but you’re using the answers to dial in on a solution.
Clients don’t need to wonder how you came to your conclusions. It’s all spelled out on that scorecard that you’re going to share with them. And that leads to an easier sales call close if your solution lines up with the problems that you’ve identified, especially if your diagnosis goes deep. Rather than proposing, say, a homepage copy or an email sequence, your proposal should talk about the larger business problems that these deliverables help fix. This is what takes you beyond that beginner copywriter stage and demonstrates that you are a true professional and you know what you’re doing. I think that’s enough for me today.
Thanks to Csaba for joining us to chat about his business, about psychology and more. You can find his Game of Conversions channel on YouTube where he shares breakdowns of nearly a hundred different proven sales letters. and you can get his copyright and cheat sheet at gameofconversions.com forward slash copywriting dash secrets which should get you on his email list. Csaba also shared the link as we were talking to get his book so make sure that you rewind if you need to get that link again. But be warned, Csaba’s welcome sequence is long. It really does run almost nine months, but it’s worth being there. And his book is excellent as he shares the five different emails in his sequence that he uses to land clients.
And while you’re checking that out, you should also check out The Copywriter Underground. Go to thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU to join the best community for copywriters who want to improve their business and writing skills. The resources there are truly a great value.
Is writing for non-profit organizations any different from writing for other businesses or clients? It turns out, the answer is “yes”. Because most of the time your “customer” won’t receive a product or service when they “buy”. And that means you need to be very good at providing the experiences and stories they want in the copy you write. Our guest for the 380th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Shterna Lazaroff and she’s got a lot to say on the topic, so stay tune
Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
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Rob Marsh: If you’re looking for a niche with lots of clients and plenty of money to spend, you could do a lot worse than writing for the nonprofit sector. As of a couple of years ago, there were more than 1.49 million charitable organizations in the United States alone and hundreds of thousands more in other countries. And spending at nonprofits accounts for more than $2.46 trillion. And that, again, is just in the United States. If you add in all of the other countries in the world, it’s double or triple that. And some portion of that is paid to copywriters.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kara Hug, and I interviewed Shterna Lazaroff, who has spent a good part of her career focused on fundraising and helping nonprofits succeed. While many of the principles of good copywriting apply to writing for charity, Shterna tells us that there are a few differences, so you may want to stick around to hear what they are and perhaps use that knowledge to land a client in the nonprofit world for yourself.
Now, this is where I usually break in and talk a bit about the Copywriter Underground. I could do that again. I could tell you about the training. I could tell you about the community. I could tell you about the copy critiques, the copy coaching that happens there every month. You’ve heard me talk about all of that stuff before. So my real question for you is what are you waiting for? What is keeping you from going to thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU and at least checking out all the resources that are listed there?
There’s a ton of information there about what it includes and what being a member will get you. And just, you know, as a selfish point, being a member is a great way to support this podcast and all the other resources that we provide for copywriters and content writers. So that URL again to visit thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU, check it out. And if it’s a fit for you, join, join the more than 200 other copywriters in there who are working hard to build a successful business.
Now let’s jump into our interview with Sterna Lazaroff.
Kira Hug: All right, let’s kick off as we do with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?
Shterna Lazaroff: So every job I’ve ever had has always had what to do with writing. I was always like the family writer, the one doing every time someone in the family needed something. So when I first was looking for my first job, just ended up was actually the editor of my high school magazine was working at like a small local kids magazine and I had worked with her in high school. She reached out, she’s like, Hey, do you want a job editing for me? So that was my first, first job ever. And I had always wanted to be a writer. It was always like when I was younger and you asked me what I wanted to do, I always said I wanted to be a writer. But there was this conception that like everyone used to tell me like writers don’t make money and it’s not really sustainable income and all that. And then When I left this magazine after two years, I had this period of like, I don’t know what to do next. And I was still very young. And I remember having this realization. I was like, wait, I just spent two years hiring writers. Why can’t I be one of the writers that people are hiring?
I had until then thought that the pretty much the only way to use like my writing skills was on the editorial side because writers don’t make money and I was like I’m paying them money so I’ll be the one who’s getting paid and so I started writing um I started writing actually the first few things I started with were articles for two of the biggest Jewish magazines that are distributed globally like hundreds of thousands of families read them every week. And I basically started writing for those and eventually discovered copywriting. I had started working part-time in a nonprofit. And as I was researching all the writing work I was doing for them, they were just like, we need an in-house writer. And I was like, sure, I could write. And I like nonprofits. I actually discovered that what I was doing was this thing called copywriting. And that’s when I kind of went full force in and took it from there.
Rob Marsh: Talk a little bit about that shift from the content you’re writing to copywriting, because oftentimes people talk about them being different skills. I actually don’t think they’re all that different. I think I’ve been vocal about that in the past. But as you started to make that shift, what did you have to do differently? What kinds of things were you trying to teach yourself and learn so that you could apply those skills in a new way?
Shterna Lazaroff: It’s a good question. A lot of the core things overlap, like I would say the ability to write under tight constraints or with a tight work hand or to communicate something under very specific guidelines is something that definitely overlaps from content to copy. The main difference is probably that with content, I think you have a bit more leeway to make the takeaway be whatever you want it to be, as opposed to with copy, there’s usually a very clear end goal. You’re putting that piece out because there’s something you want from it, as opposed to with content, or at least the kind of content I was doing as a magazine writer, I was doing a lot of feature lifestyle pieces. It was really just the goal was to entertain. And with copy, the goal is really to not just give people a good way to spend a half hour reading, but to actually get them to do something with what you’re saying. So there was a bit more like focused on like with every word that you’re writing, you’re really thinking about like, is this moving me forward to what we want to happen because of this piece?
Kira Hug: Yeah. And with entertainment, I mean, I think entertaining can be hard. So what is something, how do you think about entertaining in your content and your copy? Like what are some of your, I don’t want to call them tricks. What, how do you approach it?
Shterna Lazaroff: I think it’s, it overlaps with the reason why I chose my niche in nonprofit copywriting where as a content writer, I was, I always loved telling people’s stories and, and writing those things, someone who had like a very interesting life or did something of real impact and featuring it and giving a spotlight to that. And so the skills that I was using a lot were like these very strong storytelling skills and really drawing people into the narrative and making them feel whatever I wanted them to feel at the time. And it’s one of the reasons that I think I was very drawn to nonprofit copywriting aside from, you know, the mission. And I like knowing that my work is meaningful, but I think that the skills actually overlap a lot. And this is something that I’ve had a few arguments with people about, but I, I would argue that nonprofit copywriting more than other niches, relies very, very much on specifically strong writing skills. I think there are a lot of industries in the copy world where you can, you always have to have a basic level of strong writing, but you can compensate for weaker writing skills in terms of having a really good like CRO background or a lot of industry knowledge and a lot of copy conversion skills, as opposed to nonprofit copywriting, where of course all of that comes in. But at the end of the day, the narrative and the emotion and all of that that you’re bringing into it is very much going to weigh heavily on the level of writing skill you bring to the table. So that was something that very much overlaps between the both of them.
Rob Marsh: That makes a lot of sense because with most non-profits, you’re not really getting anything in return for what you spend as opposed to if you’re buying a course or a book or a vacation or whatever. What you’re buying is that experience of giving. So I, I’m curious, like, okay, in addition to just like storytelling or being very emotional, are there other things that you’re thinking about when you’re writing for, you know, a nonprofit clients that you’re making that experience of engaging with the, you know the letter, the request for funding or, you know, the donation letter, whatever that is so that that actually becomes an experience.
Shterna Lazaroff: So I lean very heavily back on what we were saying, which is the storytelling part of it, the really drawing people in with like a strong hook, a strong narrative, something that immediately puts them in that person’s shoes or in that situation where they can feel everything you want them to feel so that there’s no doubt in their mind that this is something that they can, not only they can, that they want to be part of in a transformation they want to make possible. Other than that, copywriting, I’m saying I borrow a lot from just typical conversion skills where let’s say building in, I wouldn’t say scarcity, but always having, answering the question of why now. There always has to be a reason where like some sort of urgency of, oh, here’s a reason why you should not just read this letter and be inspired, but read this letter and know that the opportunity to make this specific change is running out. So just really for me a huge part of like leaning into this niche was taking everything I’ve learned in the skills in the courses that an education I’ve had as a copywriter and learning how to make those more non-profit aligned.
Kira Hug: Can you provide an example if anything comes to mind as far as like the narrative part and the emotional side that you were speaking to like where you want to put the reader in the you know the place of someone who’s experienced whatever the cause is like how how do you do that and do you have an example?
Shterna Lazaroff: So very often with a fundraising letter, it would be starting with a story or a quote, like dropping them straight into the middle of what’s happening. And like starting with a scene as opposed to the hook will very often be a story or a scene. or very often when I’m working on brochures or websites, a lot of the copy will also tell a story where let’s say the PAS, like when we’re starting the framework and we’re building out the beginning of the website, the homepage, instead of the PAS being like people are struggling with X, Y, Z, but like telling that in like very vivid imagery and with details and with specifics and with dialogue and really like building a story that when someone reads the homepage of a of a website or is reading the campaign page for a fundraiser they are actually reading a story of something that they get to be a part of but it’s it’s not just here’s bullets of what’s happening and and what’s going on but really again drawing on like the strong writing skills of you need to use all those vivid verbs and all those tricks that are somewhat basic in terms of they’re the things they tell you if you want to be a strong writer, this is what you use. I think they very, very much come into play here.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, that makes sense. So are there any oddities in working with clients in the nonprofit space. You know, things that you need to keep in mind as you’re selling your services or as you’re approaching working with them that are different from clients in other regular niches.
Shterna Lazaroff: So to be completely honest, I haven’t really worked so much with other niches to draw a very strong comparison, but I know just from what I have done, I would say one of the biggest things to keep in mind is The whole nonprofit world as a whole has sort of a brand where the brand is that we’re here to do good and we’re here to do better. And a lot of the like heavy selling or strong like emotional manipulation just doesn’t feel aligned when it comes to nonprofits. And so that’s why I was saying before that a lot of what I spent a long time doing is working out like how can I take these same skills and the same like tricks of the trade and take the best parts of them, but also specifically the parts that feel on brand to what a nonprofit is. So for example, confirm shaming. I mean, I think in general, people are moving away from that practice, but confirm shaming would be where you have someone confirm that they’re about to do something wrong. So let’s say if they’re about to click off a donate page, it would say something like, no, I don’t want to help the starving children in Africa. And that’s something that technically, like I’m pretty sure the studies say that it works, but it’s not on brand to who nonprofits are as a whole. And obviously there are the exceptions with some nonprofits will have like snarkier style or that kind of thing. But in general, knowing what those, those knowing how to take everything that works, might work otherwise, and say like, does this actually align with the mission and the vision of who the nonprofit world is and what the nonprofit world’s trying to accomplish?
Kira Hug: Yeah, it’s almost like you have your own filter and you have to run through as you continue to learn and improve as a writer, you have to run everything you learn through that filter to see if it makes sense for the nonprofit space.
Shterna Lazaroff: By the way, to continue that, in many ways, I think people assume that the nonprofit world is very different in terms of, let’s say, me as a service provider. closing packages or selling a service to a nonprofit where this like scarcity mindset come into play where like, no, they don’t have money, we can’t ask but In many ways, the savvy nonprofits invest in fundraising the same way a savvy business will invest in selling in their sales process. This is the funnel that supports the work they do. The savvy nonprofits know that, so it’s just a matter of getting in front of the ones who are not going to be all nickel and dimey and say things like, no, you can’t charge us because if you charge us, it means we can give one less pair of shoes to a kid who needs it. The savvy ones, the same way you can also find services, businesses that will say things like that, like, we can’t do it because we need to focus on X, Y, Z. We don’t have the budget. The savvier nonprofits do have that budget. So in that sense, like, the sales process is not necessarily so different. It’s more that the conversation, the nuance of what you’re discussing and how might just be altered because it’s a different industry than some other industries are.
Kira Hug: Yeah. And I can imagine from a couple of the nonprofits I’ve worked with a decade ago where you can have a really powerful board of directors too. And they want to see results with fundraising campaigns. So if you’re running that team, you’re not going to hire a copywriter for $10 an hour. You’re going to invest because your job depends on getting that return. I didn’t know you worked with nonprofits. I did, two different ones. Yeah. That’s so cool. Yeah, I’ve got nonprofit stories. Yeah, so I think they are incentivized. And I think that’s a really good reminder, because even though I’ve worked for nonprofits, I’ve thought that before. Like, is that a space that we’ll be able to pay? Is that a lucrative niche to go into? Even though I know it is, I think it’s really easy to assume that and make those assumptions incorrectly. Let’s go back to your story. And when you went all in, you know, we kind of cut off there. But once you decided, okay, I am a copywriter, I want to work in the nonprofit space. How did you get that community and that network and land those projects and find those nonprofits that are able to invest?
Shterna Lazaroff: So it was a bit of a, I would say a long winded road in the sense that when I first decided that I was going all in as a copywriter, I actually first got an agency job. I didn’t go out on my own first. Happens to be that the agency I worked at did a lot of work with nonprofits, which kind of just solidified for me what I had always known, which is that I loved working with nonprofits. But there was a period of time when it wasn’t the only kind of project I was working on. What the benefit was for me that when I left that agency after two years, I had significant experience, but something that people can struggle with sometimes is they can have very strong skills, but it’s hard to have anything to show for them. Like when you’re just getting started in the industry or just moving to a new niche. And here, even though I was somewhat new to running my own business and running my own entity, I had the samples from this. agency that I was able to show that, hey, look, these are some projects I’ve worked on. I had worked on projects there that raised million, one project we did, I think raised $72 million over 18 months. Significant, significant projects. So I really, I had what to show. And I think that that made the jump into going out fully, fully on my own, which I only did a year, 12 months ago. made it slightly easier because when I was doing that, I wasn’t starting from scratch in terms of, Oh, I’m just moving into a new industry or a new niche and having nothing to show for it. The only thing I didn’t have tons of experience with was the business end of it. But at that point I had the samples and I also felt like I really had the copy skills to bring to the table.
Rob Marsh: And at the same time, did you have the opportunity to build a network of potential contacts while you were at the agency, or did you have to go find those on your own as you went out to do your own work?
Shterna Lazaroff: So my network is something that I was building over the years in general. Um, so definitely the agency and I have a lot of gratitude to the boss I used to work with because he actually would send clients to me. People would reach out to him. I’d say he was a full service agency, so he would offer copy and design and web development and all of that. And if clients would come to him and just need a nonprofit copywriting, he would say, I have this great copywriter who worked for me. Sure. Not go straight to her. So that was something that I had done, um, slowly over the years. Also just the network of copywriters I trained with and, you know, grew up with in the copy world. Oh, there was a certain point in time. It’s not so true anymore because as my business has grown, I’ve focused on other areas of, of lead generation as well. But there was a point in time when I was able to say that every single project I worked on was either a repeat client or a referral from either a client, but very often also just other copywriters in my network who, and I think this is also where the fact that I had a very strong niche very early on was a benefit. When people would hear nonprofit and copywriting, they automatically associated, okay, send to Sterna, go to Sterna. And I think that ended up being a huge source of network and contacts for me as I grew.
Rob Marsh: Let’s talk a little bit more about that advantage that choosing a niche gives. So I know you, in some ways, you kind of accidentally fell into the nonprofits through your agency experience, but how else have you thought about niching to make sure that people are finding you and associating you with the thing that you do, nonprofit copy?
Shterna Lazaroff: So a very simple thing is, you know, recently I’ve been active on LinkedIn and even if I’m posting content that’s broader or just more marketing, um, you know, it’s beneficial to anyone who’s in marketing or anyone who’s in copywriting. The examples I bring will always be from the nonprofit industry or the nonprofit sector. And, or when I’m talking about like, you know, securing sales, I’ll say like nurturing donors, always using the language that just, it could be a very subtle thing, but when someone reads my post, they’re like, oh, nonprofits, they see those terms. So even if they’re gaining on a broader perspective, they’re still associating, making that link of, oh, starting a nonprofit. And just really anytime, you know, any slack groups that I’m on, if there’s a conversation about nonprofits, I’ll make an effort to specifically jump into those and show up as the expert in those conversations. And. The great thing about niching, I mean I know you guys are fans of niching, I’m pretty sure anyone who, most people are, but it really also just allows you to not only show up as an expert but really become the expert because you’re working on similar projects or similar, in a similar industry on repeat, on repeat, on repeat, you actually get to know those a lot better and you actually get to do a better job at them. So it’s not just that people come to you because you’ve created a brand around that. You can actually stand behind that brand with confidence because you know that you have the experience to, you know, it’s not just you’re the nonprofit copywriter. We actually have the experience to prove that and the expertise to stand behind that title.
Kira Hug: Let’s also talk about the creative ways you’ve landed projects, because I know, you know, we’ve chatted in the think tank about some of these ways, but I think you really approach client acquisition from a creative, out of the box way. So maybe you can provide an example or two.
Shterna Lazaroff: Yeah. So this goes back to like a bigger thing, which is at the beginning, it almost felt a little bit distracting, all the different things you could try and the different ways you could do and work on your business and the different ends you could develop and different things you could fine tune. And I remember having this realization at one point where like, I don’t actually want to have to work more than I have to work. I love my job. I love what I do. I was like, I want to focus on things that are going to really get me to what the bottom line is. And I was like, OK, so I could create all these forms of lead gen. The main thing that I want to do is I want to connect not just with other professionals in the nonprofit field, but I actually want to get on the phone with these nonprofit development directors or CEOs or founders who are actually the people who are an ideal target, an ideal client for the kind of work I could provide. So I tried to think of ways that basically, I was like, how can I get on the phone with these people? And in a way that would, obviously, I need to provide value to them. So the story just makes me laugh, actually, because whatever. I had this idea of starting a podcast. And I was like, the podcast is not, I don’t care how many people listen to it, it’s not for the listeners. It’s a way for me to have a phone conversation with the people who I want to have a phone conversation with. So you guys were actually very encouraging and I worked on it. I recorded the first few episodes. It didn’t actually start airing yet because I was planning to launch October and then war broke out in Israel and it just felt wrong to like launch a new product. But the funniest thing was that one of the people who I had on that call was actually the first interview that I did. At the end of the interview, I spoke to him for 40 minutes about his nonprofit and the different creative ways that he brings donors in his door. And at the end, he basically was like, can we go off the record for a second? I’m pretty impressed with the questions you asked and what you brought to the table in this conversation. I have this project in mind. Can you work on it for me? So I was laughing and I told my project manager after it, I was like, we don’t even have to air the episodes. It’s fine. Like the podcast is already, it’s already doing what I wanted it to do. And then the followup to that conversation is that another nonprofit saw this project I did for the nonprofit who was on my podcast and actually reached out and was like, Hey, we saw the project you did for XYZ. Can you work on something similar for us? So I was like, Oh, all the more reason not to actually air the episodes because like, accomplish my mission. It’s already become a source of lead generation for me. So yeah, that was definitely one fun, and I do still plan to release the episodes, especially because they’re anyway recorded might as well. But yeah, and I think it’s just to, it’s, when you’re thinking about what next steps to take in your business, you always want to keep your eye on what is my ultimate goal here and what am I trying to do and like not have shiny object syndrome where it’s like, oh, this looks fun or that person’s doing that. It’s really sit down and say like, what are the results that I need to move my business forward and then how can I get those results even if they’re not necessarily the most typical or out there way or the most done and seen around, but it’s like if this is something that could work for you and that could move that bottom line that you want, which in my case, I was like, I want to be talking to more of my ideal clients. How can I speak to more of my ideal clients? And really just using that as the basis as opposed to getting distracted or running in a whole bunch of different directions that might not actually bring immediate value to your business.
Kira Hug: So I love this story because you may have the most profitable podcast that ever did not exist. But what is so great about this example is that you are, I mean, there are many different types of personalities of copywriters out there, but you are someone who is not afraid to get on a call with a prospect and that is where you shine. And I think, you know, oftentimes it’s like we, find it so easy to stay busy with all the things we think we should be doing just so that we don’t have to actually get in front of our ideal client and actually like sell to them or not even sell to them, just be in front of them. But you just kind of cut through all the noise and go directly to your ideal client and make that connection, which has paid off in so many ways. And so I love the simplicity behind it. I guess the question in here is like, could you just talk through the way that you showed up in that interview, that podcast interview that wasn’t aired, because clearly that worked. And I think there are many copywriters who could do the same thing and it might not land or turn into a project. So I’m sure there were, you know, things you were doing in that interview or leading up to it that were really impressive and helped turn that into a project.
Shterna Lazaroff: So there, it’s a good question. There are two main things that come to mind. First of all, because again, I had this bottom line in mind the whole time when I was formulating my questions for the interviews, I was actually thinking of how can I show that I know what I’m talking about in this industry. So the questions I were asking were not necessarily, um, base level or get to know you questions. I jumped straight into like the bottom line of their nonprofit and also didn’t shy away from asking questions that were a little bit more technical or complex in background or scope as a way to just show, hey, I know I have experience here. I can ask these questions because I have the background knowledge on them. And another thing is that in the podcast, each episode is around 30 minutes. But my phone call with each of these nonprofit founders was closer to, I would say, an hour, an hour and a half. And part of the reason why I scheduled that time in is because I let myself get off topic if it felt relevant. So I was on the phone with someone who was mentioning this specific campaign that brought in tons of new donors, one-time donors. And then I asked him on the podcast, I was like, by the way, what did you do about like, how are you engaging these donors now? How are you keeping them involved now? And had like a good 20 minute conversation with him about ways that he can keep those donors as active donors, not just one time and then they fall off the email list or churn right out. And I cut that out of the episode because a lot of it was very technical and getting into what might be proprietary about the nonprofit, but it was a way that by the time we hung up the phone call, he had a little bit of understanding of where my expertise lies or what I could bring to the table for him, even though there was not a single point in any of those conversations where I sold a service or brought my services to the table or spoke about them at all. It was more just showing up as an expert in a one-on-one conversation with these people.
Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about the podcast or the, the non-cast, um, I’m curious, you know, as you were thinking about the people that you want to talk to, clearly they’re in your niche, but was there anything else that went into consideration before you reached out to them to, to have that conversation? Just in terms of like, you know, they’re going to be a great guest or that they’re going to share something specific based off of the kind of work that they’re doing, or was it just like, Oh, here’s a company I want to work with. I’m going to reach out to them.
Shterna Lazaroff: So it was, I specifically, you know, I said that my goal was never really listeners, but at the same time, I was like, if I’m putting this work in, I want it to be something that’s interesting and valuable to people. So I really focused all my interviewees on people who had a specific, interesting approach to bringing donors into their nonprofit. So if they ran a slightly out of the box campaign or, um, fundraised in a way that wasn’t typical at the time, or the first of their kind to do a peer-to-peer matching campaign, all-or-nothing campaign, all those kind of campaigns, so that we could talk about those more specific things rather than … I didn’t really talk so much about like, oh, tell me the story of your nonprofit and how it got started. Enough to give context to the nonprofit, but it’s not like a storytelling podcast. concrete tips, information, high level strategy podcast.
Kira Hug: So I feel like the theme here, and just again, just knowing you, I feel like the theme is that you’re focused on, you know, efficiencies and you know, almost like multi-purpose marketing. And, you know, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong here, but like, I feel like it is doing it smarter and thinking strategically about everything you’re doing in your business. So do you have other examples of how you’re doing that? I mean, I can think of another example. Tell me. Well, I’m just thinking about how we’ve talked about you teaching in some of our different programs. And your response was like, yes, of course, I want to do that. But also let me think about this strategically to think about what I could create that I could also recycle and use again on another platform so that this makes sense for me. And that’s, it’s so smart. And, but I also think about all the times, you know, I’ve created presentations that I just like create from scratch. And then I do it one time and then it goes on a shelf and I never touch it again. And it’s, it’s a, it’s a waste in many ways. Uh, so I guess because you think that way, I’m just curious, like, are there other things you’re doing in your business that we could possibly, you know, borrow?
Shterna Lazaroff: So, well, by the way, for context on that, I said this before, like, I love my job. I love what I do. I love what I get to do every day. I love the people I work with, but I don’t want to be working more than I have to. Like I’m not working to work. I’m working to have a life. And so that’s why I, like, I’m a little bit of a, I don’t know, a lion about my time because I’m like, if I could do one thing and get double value out of it, that’s just a better use of my time than doing one thing and only being able to use it once. So with everything, I’m always looking at what are the processes or systems I could put in place of making things more efficient or more structured or better run next time. The main example of that that comes up isn’t even so creative but basically the biggest change I would say I made to my business in like the last few months was hiring a project manager and it was part of that mindset where I want to be able to use my time as wisely as possible, so anything that can be outsourced, I want to outsource. And I have an amazing project manager who works with me, and anything that can be handed off to her, I try to hand off because it then means that my time, I could be working on things that I’m less replaceable at, things that, you know, the business needs me for as opposed to a part of the business that someone else can fill in.
Rob Marsh: So yeah, I’ll come back to your project manager because I think there’s maybe some good questions around that. But before we leave off on some of the other things you’ve been doing in your business, in addition to the podcast, I know you’ve also thought a little bit about like some memberships and some continuing product type services that you can offer your clients. We just talk a little bit about the thought process that you have as you’re thinking about your business, how you make it work for yourself and how you’re maybe developing some one-to-many type products to help you grow.
Shterna Lazaroff: Yeah, so that was one of my big goals for the year, because I actually loved working at an agency. And in theory, I would have continued that. But with an agency, you’re capped at the most you’ll ever earn is really a salary. And I wanted something that would allow my business to kind of ebb and flow as my life does. As my family grows, I would be able to take more time on or off, depending on what stage in life I’m at at each stage. So there was that part and then there was this other part where I’m very drawn to the nonprofit world because I care about the work that people in the nonprofit industry do. The community that I grew up in, the Chabad Lubavitch Jewish community, there are a lot of people who are very engaged in outreach centers around the world. And there are 5,000 of these nonprofits called Chabad Houses that are literally, I’m pretty sure there’s none in Antarctica, but like in every one of the 50 states and pretty much every country from like Uganda, Africa to Tasmania. And a lot of these houses work on a very shoestring budget. And I wanted to be able to bring, you know, a lot of them are also slightly old school in their approach to things because they just don’t have access to the tools or the expertise in the ways that the nonprofit world has like really evolved over the years. So these two things came together where I was like, I want to be able to help this industry, but a lot of them don’t necessarily have the budget or the resources to engage my services. And not only that, but like, they don’t necessarily need the full scope of what I can provide for them. Like a lot of them need more just basic, getting a solid donor plan off the ground. And then also wanting to build something that has the ability to scale. So these two kind of came together and because, you know, it’s a real blessing that this industry is so niche in the sense that I could create one product and really reuse it for so many people. All these Chabad houses could use a very similar product. So I started creating templates for them. So fundraising templates around the big times of the year when they run major campaigns, so before the high holidays in September, just did one for the year-end campaign in December. Basically creating a template that is very affordable from their end and from my end is somewhat worth my time because I’m focusing on numbers rather than the price of the product sold. I did originally have the idea where I wanted to do this as a monthly membership and as I was going along, and this is one of the learning curves of the last six to eight months, realized that my original plan wasn’t necessarily It’s not so much that it wasn’t sustainable, I would say that the message of how to market it was extremely complex. And it was a much harder sell than, you know, I basically for context, I wanted to do a library that would just have access to hundreds and hundreds of templates that are constantly add all the templates they might need for not only fundraising, but also nurturing donors. And I eventually realized that to make it worthwhile for the value that they would get, the price that I would have to charge, you know, basically the, I’m not explaining it, but like the product and the market as in that structure didn’t really make so much sense.
Kira Hug: Sounds like there wasn’t a product market fit with that model, right?
Shterna Lazaroff: It’s not so much that it was a product market fit because the interesting thing is that what I’m doing right now in terms of the actual product I’m delivering is pretty similar to the original idea I had in mind. The switch I made is that For me to have made it worthwhile for me, you know, if I was going to give people access to hundreds of templates, I needed them to sign up for at least a year because otherwise they would come in, technically they could get all the value they want and leave. The thing is, to make it a monthly membership, the price I would have to charge, there’s a little bit of sticker shock around that. It would be just a higher number. You know, even if I was charging something like $50 a month, but for someone to come and say, oh, I need to pay $600 felt like a lot. As opposed to the way I structure it now where I started selling individual templates or template packages, so you can still download a lot of those original templates I created for the membership, but on a very low one price per template or the more complex packages charging a bit higher. In theory, people are actually spending the same amount over the year, but the structure of how they’re paying for it is broken down in a way that essentially just avoids the sticker shock. So that was, I had to realize that and learn that and evolve my business model around that.
Kira Hug: Maybe you can just kind of quickly share, you’ve had a lot of success with this. So I think before I ask you a follow-up question, I just would love for you to brag a little bit about what you’ve been able to do. I know you’ve had two successful launches.
Shterna Lazaroff: Yeah, thank God. So my first launch was extremely stressful. And Part of it was that I had traveled. I live in Israel. I had traveled to America. And because it was tied down to the calendar, I wasn’t really active in my business at the time that it was launching. And I didn’t really have so much time to focus on it. And also, it was just my first time doing it. So a lot of it was new. It was extremely, extremely overwhelming. I had this email list that I had started and then never nurtured at all. And I basically, there were a few hundred people on there and I emailed them and I was like, Hey, I’m selling this product, you know, better copy terms. But. did that and thank God I sold quite a significant amount of packages. And, but like when it ended, honestly, I was like, I’m not doing this again for a year. Like I was, I was drained. I was, I was so over it. But then after the holidays ended and you know, all the high holidays and I started getting the feedback from people who had used the packages and that really like lit a spark under me again. I was like, you know, seeing how your work was used and that it was doing exactly what I wanted it to do, which was giving people with a smaller budget access to proven tools and methods and writing that would really help them, but in a way that they could afford. So they were able to help their smaller nonprofits without having to pay for the higher pricing. And so that really like lit a fire underneath me again. And then but I still I was like, I don’t know, I need a break. I don’t know that I could do this again. And then November time, someone who had bought the high holidays package in September emailed and was like, Hey, are you doing a year end package? And I was not planning on doing one. And in a moment of sheer stupidity, I emailed back and I was like, yeah, I am. It’s going to launch in two weeks. And then I basically gave, I forced myself into a two week deadline and I launched the December package, the year end package. And I doubled my numbers from the high holiday package and. you know, now I got a little bit smarter. I’ve, I immediately like printed and saved all the feedback. I was like, so I, but also the second launch was a lot easier because a lot of the tech end or just, you know, the learning curve of your first time doing something was taken care of, you know, setting up the whole platform and all the sequences and the tagging, like a lot of just the nitty gritty work that you need to do when you’re selling a digital product. were able to just like copy paste those systems and just tweak the things we wanted to change but just put them in place again and I think I spent like half the amount of time on the launch. I also because I was doing it so last minute and hadn’t originally planned to do it, and I promised myself that I was only going to do it if it was low stress, I cut certain parts out of the process where I did not market the product anywhere other than my list. I just emailed my list about it. And the interesting thing was that I still got a lot of word of mouth referrals, people who bought the product who hadn’t been on my email list. And that’s also the value of working in such a tight knit niche that doesn’t necessarily overlap. They were, people were very happy to refer their friends and say, Hey, there’s this great product I heard about. Um, but I also, my sales page was a Google doc. I didn’t design it. I didn’t get it designed. Like I didn’t want to spend the time doing it myself. I didn’t want to spend the money of getting someone else to do it. The time it took me to write it, I added on another hour for like making sure there were like headings and font styles and whatever. And then that was my launch. And thank God.
Kira Hug: And it was a beautiful, beautiful Google Doc. Well done. So the follow-up question is just like, what advice or tips would you give to someone who is thinking about launching a product as kind of a secondary business based off your experiences? They haven’t done it yet. They want to skip all the heartache. What would you suggest they think about or do?
Shterna Lazaroff: So I wonder, I’m actually curious what you guys think. I feel like a certain level of the heartache is just par for the course where just the learning curve of you learning your way around a new platform and a new system. Practical things you could do is don’t do it as last minute as I did because, I mean we could get into this more, but there was actually a time when I was like doubting this whole product in general and wasn’t sure I wanted to do it, which is why also the high holiday package I pulled together super last minute. So I would say don’t do that. Give yourself a little bit more time and that way you have the buffer zone for things that might take longer or might need to be redone or just might need some assistance or restructuring, the best things you could do I would say is listen to your audience in terms of what they’re asking for. So actually the whole idea of doing a high holiday fundraising package started a year ago during the high holidays, so at this point like 15 months ago, when one of my husband’s friends who knows that I’m a writer reached out and was like, hey, can your wife write a letter for me? And I was like, no, I’m not. In my mind, I was like, I don’t work with tiny nonprofits who can only afford XYZ. It’s not worth my time. That’s not where I focus my energy. As much as I want to help them, I have to think about the bottom line of moving my own business and my personal life forward in the ways I want to. And then I was thinking about it more and I was like, actually, it’s not such a crazy idea. And actually, so the whole idea for everything that I ended up doing very much came from the people in my audience. And I think that if you listen, they very often will tell you what they want. And so I’ve gotten in the habit of if someone reaches out and says, hey, do you do XYZ service or can you help me with this and that, even if it’s not something I currently do. I had a phone call today with someone who had reached out. Someone from this very niche audience had reached out and said, hey, can you help me with something? And I said, it’s not currently something I do, but if you’re open to getting on the phone with me, I’d love to hear about what you have in mind. And by the end of this 25-minute phone call with him, which he was very gracious and got on knowing that I wasn’t necessarily going to commit to help him, I had like two new product ideas of ways that I can help this audience in a way that works for both of us. So I think just really listening to what people are telling you, you know, your best business ideas come from the people who will need your business and will need your service.
Kira Hug: I have a question related to, related to mindset. And so, you know, you have OK, I have a couple of questions related to this, actually. You have two audiences now. So you have your product-based audience, and then you have your nonprofit, kind of like higher ticket audience. So as someone who is efficient and thinks strategically about how to get things done in less time, more time for living and less time for working, how do you now think about managing and kind of nurturing two audiences? How are you? Because I think this is also relatable to a lot of copywriters who end up with two audiences and two different sides of their business, their business.
Shterna Lazaroff: Honestly, it’s a challenge. It’s one of the things I’m really trying to double down on because I’m selling two different price points, which means two different audiences, two different messages. And it’s also confusing because a lot of people, you know, I don’t want to have to get into like sticky conversations with people who, you know, bought one of my templates, which are extremely affordable. And then they come and they ask about like an annual campaign package or an annual report that they want done like fully custom. And just the price point for that kind of product is extremely different than the product I offer in the template thing. Um, and it’s something that I, I would say I’m actively working on how to fine tune that. One of the biggest things that I’ve done is first of all, just building my email list and deciding which audience I’m speaking to on which platform. So right now, and this is probably very subject to change, um, the nonprofit clients I speak to on LinkedIn and. this more niche audience I speak to on my email list. It’s more of a cozy corner. But I also try to focus on products that could bring value to both. So let’s say I’m working on annual reports now. This is a season in the nonprofit world. So I created a guide to writing your own nonprofit annual report, which For one end of my business was a way to bring clients in the door. And for the other end of my business was just a way to bring value to the people on my list. I was anyway creating this guide. It’s something that can help them also. So I sent it to them with a slightly different email that didn’t necessarily mention the fact that I do this as a service. but was just here’s something valuable and helpful that you can use in your own nonprofit as you prepare for the season. So again, just focusing on, I’d say almost like the lowest common denominator between the two of like, where do these two audiences overlap and focusing on resources that fit in that part of the Venn diagram and then just catering the messaging or tweaking it slightly for each.
Kira Hug: OK, yeah, that’s helpful. And if I am thinking about writing for the nonprofit space, whether I’m new or I’ve been writing for a while, what are some of the core packages or deliverables that you know are just always needed? And maybe they’re so obvious to you, like the annual report you’ve mentioned. But what else is just a go-to deliverable that we could pitch and probably have some level of success?
Shterna Lazaroff: So a very straightforward one, because it’s usually a pretty straightforward project and also a lower priced project, is a fundraising letter. So either direct mail or an email for a specific campaign. There’s also a lot of just ongoing donor nurture content. a savvy nonprofit will have regular touch points with all their donors, and those will be catered usually based on what level donor they are, what tier that donor falls into. So they might want specific reports for just getting blasted on email every week versus a more in-depth technical report that might break down some more of the numbers or anything like that for their bigger donors, their major gifters. So that’s another thing. Then there are the classics, like websites, email sequences, like a nonprofit, a welcome sequence for as soon as someone gives for the first time, their thank you letter, their automated thank you emails, and then a lot of seasonal stuff. So the same way in e-com you’ll have Black Friday, Cyber Monday, in the nonprofit world there’s Giving Tuesday and there are all the seasons where there are specific campaigns going on, capital campaigns. trying to think of like what’s on my roster right now. Brochures, not everything I do is actually connected directly to fundraising. A lot of times it’s just connected to helping them grow the nonprofit. So let’s say recruiting donors or helping people understand exactly the services they provide and why those services can help them. So a lot of content around that. Yeah, I’m trying to think what else? It’s probably a pretty good overview.
Rob Marsh: So yeah, the question is, Kira, do you have enough to break into the nonprofit writing world now?
Kira Hug: Do I have enough?
Rob Marsh: Yeah. Is that enough ideas for you?
Kira Hug: Yeah. I mean, I think it’s, it’s plenty. Like I think it’s a really, it’s just such a great reminder speaking to you that this is a valuable niche. And there again, there’s money and there are clear deliverables and problems that need solved throughout the year. So I think it’s such a great option for writers who maybe are looking for a new niche or maybe are kind of straddling two different niches because sometimes one is busier than the other. So it’s a great option.
Shterna Lazaroff: If you’re thinking about becoming a nonprofit copywriter, definitely do it.
Kira Hug: OK, well, before we wrap, I just want to ask, Like two more quick questions, lightning round style. So, you know, we’ve shared a lot of wins and so much of what you’re doing, you know, thinking strategically, having these successes, which is wonderful, but you know, we all have struggles. So what is one struggle that you’ve dealt with or you’re still dealing with or you overcame over the last year?
Shterna Lazaroff: Well, you said this is lightning round, but I have a lot. I don’t know how to do a lightning round. I don’t understand. Sorry. Yeah, well, I would say the biggest one is I always had this dream of creating this some kind of way to service this audience that was very important to me. But I also really struggled with the idea of getting out in front of them as someone who was charging. and asking for money for a product because it’s a very selfless community and people are very benevolent and anyone who goes into that kind of world of like most people who go into the non-profit sector know that they will never really be rich. That’s not why they’re doing it. I really had a hard time and also because this is a community I come from where a lot of the people running these Chabad houses are my neighbors and my cousins and my relatives. I really struggled with the idea of like bringing business so close to home. Um, and that was part of the reason why I ended up doing it so last minute because I really kept pushing it off. I was like, I can’t do this. It’s so uncomfortable. People are going to start calculating how much money I’m making and they’re going to start like, I just, the whole thing really, I had a very, very hard time with it. Um, and I pushed it off and I pushed it off and I pushed it off. And because the campaigns I had in mind, you know, I want to do this high holiday package. I knew that if I didn’t do it, it would be another 12 months until I could do it again. And that was basically what pushed me to finally just do it. And I was like, close your eyes. You might cringe the whole thing, but just try it out. Just see where it goes. Um, and I ended up doing it. Like I said, it was a lot of work, but the feedback really helps me find my place in this where it’s like, help me work out that yes, there is something slightly uncomfortable about charging people who are close to you, but at the same time, they’re choosing to do it because it’s worthwhile for them and it’s an investment that’s bringing them value. That being said, there were a few things I made sure to do in my messaging that just made the whole process of selling a little bit more comfortable for me. didn’t lean heavy on any sales tactic or selling. There was the classic fast action bonus, like we signed up right away, but I tried not to have any copy that was, oh, do this and you’ll make X, Y, Z in donations and it will bring you, I don’t know, millions of dollars. May that be the case for everyone. Even though there were certain promises that I was comfortable making in the sense that I believed in the product I was creating enough to make those promises, I still wanted to make sure that I didn’t come across as salesy in any way. And so my messaging was very just like, Hey, here’s a product I created that might be helpful. If you’re interested, here’s how you could check it out. And I tried to speak about the messaging and the content of the templates and why they would be helpful more than focusing on like the numbers or the ROI or um that kind of thing and really just kept it very like I would say like soft and gentle or at least that was my intention that was my goal and that made me a lot more comfortable doing this and honestly when I did my launch in December again I leaned on the same thing and it seems to still be working um but yeah so there is a way you can always sell in the way that makes you feel most comfortable with what you’re doing and that was a huge shift when I realized that I could you know cut and paste and just drop the things I wasn’t comfortable with was, I think that gave me like a little bit of a sigh of like, okay, fine, I could do this.
Rob Marsh: And what is your other not lightning round question, Kira?
Kira Hug: You know, it’s just what kind of like Rob’s question, you know, it’s what is next for you? What is exciting you right now? What can we look forward to from you?
Shterna Lazaroff: So the biggest thing I’m working on now is working out the balance of how much time I want to be focusing on. I think of my business as having two branches right now and how much time do I want to be focusing on either one. Um, and part of that is kind of just. following where it’s taking me in the sense of like, you know, I said, I had this phone call recently with someone who asked me about specific services and I was like, I don’t offer them. And then on the phone call with him, I realized that I could build it in a way that was scalable. I was like, Hey, maybe I should try these out. So I, there are definitely a few like specific ideas I have in mind of ways that I would love to build out the, like what I call the template part of my business or the scalable part of it. But the biggest thing is really working out like which am I focusing on and when and working out, you know, what that balance is going to be for me and which one deserves attention or needs attention and why and how to split my time. So I’d say that’s probably like the biggest thing that I’ll probably be working on over the next few months.
Rob Marsh: Amazing. Well, this has been a good look into your business, Sterna, and seeing how we might be able to do some things in the nonprofit world. So I want to thank you for taking some time to talk to us about that.
Shterna Lazaroff: Thank you for having me.
Rob Marsh: If somebody wants to connect with you, where should they go?
Shterna Lazaroff: So my website, you could join my email list, shternalazaroff.com. Or I’ve lately been pretty active on LinkedIn. If you listen to this in a month from now, that might not be the case anymore. I’m like, testing to see whether the platform is bringing ROI for me. So definitely my email list, possibly LinkedIn.
Rob Marsh: That’s our interview with Shterna Lazaroff. Before I let you go, I’ll just emphasize a couple of ideas that we talked about in this interview that really stuck out to me.
Number one, writing for nonprofits, thinking about this, your customers or the people that you’re writing to, they don’t get a product, they don’t get a service at the end. We talked a little bit about this in the interview. So they need to get something. And often that something is a story. It’s an experience. It’s that emotional connection and that’s everything. And so it’s absolutely critical to be able to nail that and connect what you’re asking your reader to do to that mission of the nonprofit.
It’s been talked about dozens and dozens of times, but Charity Water, one of the things that they do in order to create that story is when you donate money to building a well, they go and build the well, they film it, They film the construction, they film the opening of the well, the water coming out, the people around the well, jumping around in the water. They film that and then they send that film, that short documentary about the well that you helped to build to everybody who contributed to that particular well. And in doing that, they give the donors a connection to the good that they’re doing. And it’s a shareable thing, so they share it on social media. send it to their friends, look at this thing that I did or that you helped me do. And it helps create that kind of story.
Now, that’s not necessary for every single thing, everything that we do for nonprofits, but we do want to be looking for creating those kinds of experiences because it’s the experience that people are buying when they donate to a charity or to a nonprofit. And as Shterna said, you can’t go overboard and take advantage. You’ve got to play it straight. If you play too much on the emotions, if you you know, blackmail, emotional blackmail, that kind of stuff, it’s going to backfire and ultimately not work. And so you really do have to play it straight, but connect as best you can to the emotion, the story and the connection. We also mentioned briefly the insider language that is so key to connecting with an audience. This isn’t just true with nonprofits. This is true with any audience, any group or community where people are being allowed to join or asked to join.
By using insider language, you send a message that you know what they’re thinking. So doctors, for instance, have words that only doctors use. And when you use those words in your copy, signals to the doctor that you know and understand them and whatever it is that you’re providing for them is right for them. The same is true for a lot of churches, a lot of clubs and organizations, for education, for teams and different groups. Find the insider language of the people that you’re talking to. And this really requires getting into their worldview, understanding what’s going on in their life around them, something that we go into in depth in the research mastery course, but really trying to understand what it is that people are thinking, saying, and doing. And if you do that, you’re going to connect with the insiders and you’re going to repel the outsiders, the people that don’t belong. And that’s a good thing.
I want to just underline this idea that Sterna talked about. this good reason to start a podcast, and that is to land clients. Now, there are a lot of reasons to have a podcast. As a passion project, maybe there’s a topic that you’re really interested in, but using a business podcast to connect with the people that you want to work with is a fantastic idea, even though it’s not necessarily a strategy that pays off within a couple of days or a couple of weeks, usually. It can, but usually it’s going to take a little bit more time to develop those relationships, but it is a fantastic way to get an introduction to somebody that you want to work with and to spend anywhere from 20 minutes to an hour. talking about business, whether it’s the challenges that they’re facing, whether it’s their expertise or some other angle, it’s one of the very best ways to begin that connection.
So if you’re thinking about, Hey, this might be something I want to try out. You don’t need a podcast that is listened to by millions and millions of people. Simply make a list of the clients that you want to work with over the next one to two years. Then reach out to the decision makers at those companies, those organizations, and Ask them if they would be interested in appearing on your podcast. Set aside 30 minutes to an hour to interview them. Ask them about the challenges that they face, the things that they’re doing in their work. Obviously, that conversation may include you talking through some strategy or some ideas as well. Just let that conversation flow. And then after the podcast, just continue to nurture that relationship until the right time to pitch or until they ask for help with some of the things that you may have discussed. Of course, you’d want to release the podcast. You don’t want to tell them you’re doing this. And then, of course, it never goes live. That’s not ever going to be good for the client relationship. But this is a fantastic way to start building those connections with clients you might want to work with. A great idea that you may want to steal from Shterna.
One last idea that I want to just make sure we emphasize is this idea of listening to your audience when they want something. Now, two times Shterna heard from her clients that they wanted something specific that she did not offer. And yet she ran with it. She turned it into a product or service. And you know, her simple answer was, that’s not something I currently do. But if you’re open to get on the phone to talk about it, let’s figure out how to move forward. And that’s turned into products for her in her business that she can sell over and over and over. and could become in the future, a very lucrative portion of her business. So again, if you hear your audience or anybody that you’re working with, ask for something that you don’t currently offer. Don’t immediately say, Nope, I don’t offer it. Obviously, if you don’t want to offer it, you shouldn’t say, you know, shouldn’t do this. But if it’s possibly something that you could do, help them with a big problem that you can solve and make some additional money, work on an additional project, simply respond back. It’s not something I currently do, but if you’re open to getting on the phone to discuss, let’s do it.
Okay. That’s what stood out to me. If something else stood out to you, email me at rob at the copywriter club.com and let me know your thoughts. And of course you can leave a review of the show at Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to the show. I want to thank Sterna again for jumping on with Kira and me and sharing so much about her business and how she approaches it. If you want to connect with Sterna, you can do that on LinkedIn or you can visit her website, shternalazaroff.com. I’m going to spell that for you just so you can find it. S-H-T-E-R-N-A-L-A-Z-A-R-O-F-F.com. And you can get in touch with her there. And like I said, you can also find her posting on LinkedIn quite a bit.
Brainstorming and creativity are often forgotten in the world of online marketing. We often jump straight into what will convert at the expense of the creative tools used by copywriters working in Ad Agencies around the world. In the 379th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with freelance advertising copywriter Shlomo Genchin about his processes for coming up with creative concepts that attract attention and engage readers and passers-by. Shlomo shared some great tips for finding better, bigger ideas for the work we do.
Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.
The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground
Rob Marsh: Have you noticed that the work most copywriters do doesn’t exactly fall under the description of creative? Yeah, we write about ideas, hopefully big ideas, but the work of most copywriters is pretty common. It’s like all of the other copy in their industry. So here’s a test, choose a niche, doesn’t matter which one, go to Google, find 10 companies in that niche and open up their websites. Then read the headlines. You can actually do this for the niche that you work in. Every time I do this, I’m amazed that about eight out of the 10 make pretty much the same promise in their headlines.
Now, usually it’s something like save time, save money. They word it a little bit differently, but it’s basically the same. And then the other two headlines are usually so bland that they’re not really making any promise at all. They might be trying to describe what they do, but usually that even falls flat. And it’s not just websites. With a few exceptions, ads look and feel the same. Even most content blurs into a vast mass of content schlock.
Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder Kira Hug and I interviewed creative copywriter Shlomo Genshin. Shlomo writes a lot about his creative process, how he comes up with ideas, and how to think more expansively when developing things like headlines, hooks, and more. It’s really the answer to this everybody looks the same problem. It’s something that copywriters and content writers around the world definitely need to be doing more of. So we think you’re going to like this episode.
But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. That’s the membership for copywriters and content writers that includes not just training, literally more than a hundred hours of training on different topics, but actual feedback on your copy, as well as monthly coaching calls from mentors you can trust, where you can get the help that you need to grow your business. I’m not going to share all of the details here. You can find out more at thecopyrighterclub.com/tcu. That’s TCU for The Copywriter Underground, where you can join and immediately expand your network of amazing copywriters who are all working to grow and build something bigger together this year. Okay, let’s go to our interview with Shlomo.
Shlomo Genchin: So I started just like a lot of people, I just started looking for ways to maybe to get rich online. You know, how to start a business, how to make money online. And I came across all those regular scammers that you would see. They would tell you, get rich in 10 days. And I bought one of those courses. And nothing came out of it, of course, because it was kind of scammy and not really possible to apply… to kind of implement all of that.
But one thing I learned there was copywriting. Like the magic of copywriting, you can basically persuade any person to buy anything. And it’s so easy. You just need some words. And it’s so simple. And I was like, that sounds interesting. I could sell anything in the world, do affiliate marketing, and whatnot. And then I just went to Google and looked up the best copywriting school in the world. And what came up was Miami Ad School in Berlin. So that’s it.
And fast forward, I created a little portfolio, started working for some clients just to get some experience. And I got in. I flew to Berlin and I moved there and started studying copywriting. And then I saw that it was so different from what I’ve learned before, because it wasn’t just about writing hooks, or catchy headlines, or anything like that. It was really about creating concepts, and ideas, and doing PR, and all the things that ad agencies today do. First of all, more interesting and second they’re kind of different because they’re not just about like persuading people making them buy things because you trick them into this or you were like so clever and all that. But because the work is actually interesting and entertaining and like that’s kind of my approach to content and to all those things today as well.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, that’s interesting. I didn’t attend a portfolio school or an ad school when I started out, but I remember when I started my career a long time ago, seeing the ads for Miami Ad School, also VCU, some of the others that are out there. It’s like, should I go? What will this add to my career? Tell us just a little bit more about that experience of attending an ad school, the kinds of courses that you took, and also the others that are there. Because it’s not just copywriters. There’s designers. There’s producers, videographers. And how you work together, in some ways, my understanding is it’s almost like a student advertising agency.
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, absolutely. It’s exactly that. And you even take real clients at some point, like once you like learn the basics, you actually start taking clients like starting from like the second or third semester, which was pretty awesome. And I feel like it’s like that experience was amazing, first of all, because They kind of approach education very differently. I guess it wouldn’t be possible with other professions. You can do it in med school. You can start practicing right away. But in that school, it’s pretty simple. Right from the start, they gave us real briefs. And teachers there, they’re all working in ad agencies, and they all created directories. So they could also let us work on some briefs that their clients gave them and introduced us to startups and to interesting companies that we could work on. So that was pretty amazing. And I think in general, it’s a very intense experience. I lived with a few roommates back then. during those times and like they just say like they didn’t see me for two years basically because I was I was like either like you know at school or in my room just brainstorming all the time like it was such an intense experience and and you know like the school manager he would always say that the goal is to prepare us for the real world. And then once we get to an agency, it would be actually easier for us. Because working at an agency is also kind of intense. But then ad school, I think, is way more. You work all the time. You think all the time. Plus, you’re not as experienced yet. So things are taking you way longer. Yeah. So eventually, it made me much, much better, I think.
Kira Hug: Can you share contextually when you were in school, ad school, just so I have a better idea of, what those years were?
Shlomo Genchin: Sure. Absolutely. So that was 2018 to 2021.
Kira Hug: Okay. So let’s continue the story then. So you leave school and what happens next? What does that process look like?
Shlomo Genchin: Even before I leave school—all the, all the fun stuff happened while I was in school. because first of all, I got into this, into this internship at Ogilvy Berlin. And that was one of the greatest springboards I’ve ever had because I think something that’s very special about this agency, I must say, and there are a few agencies like that, is that they would actually give you real work. You wouldn’t be the intern who would look for stock photos or do anything like that. They would actually give you the most interesting briefs and give you an equal opportunity to crack them. And during that time, like during those like three months, you know, Wielder Berlin, I’ve done some of my best work. Like it was incredible. I’ve got that. I’ve got one brief for a ketchup company from Austria. And we won D&AD with those ads. And then, I think, got shortlisted and won some other awards. Anyway, but then we also had a brief for Burger King. And we won a bunch of awards for this one too, print ads. It was about our experience, basically, of all the creatives that worked on that. of how during that time during lockdown we would just sit outside and we would go out to eat and we couldn’t like you know it was lockdown in Berlin and we couldn’t like sit there at the restaurant or anything like that so we would have to take the food out and just improvise tables at different like random places you know so we would go to like I don’t know just sit on the staircase or or like it’s yeah just in the park or whatever And then when the lockdown was about to end, then Burger King asked us to create something that would talk about that. And we created this campaign where we just took pictures of people actually doing that thing on the street and said, proper dining is back. You can go back and eat at the restaurants. And that got a lot of words, a lot of views. And that was a really good beginning to my creative career.
Rob Marsh: That’s amazing. I am really curious about your brainstorming process. So, you know, you mentioned you get handed a brief and then, of course, that’s what the work starts. You know, for most listeners who listen to our show, they’re freelancers. They’re usually not in an agency, although there are a few. So I’m curious about that process because I want to hear or I want to compare your process of brainstorming, coming up with ideas, concepts. hooks, headlines, all that to my process. So will you just walk us through, when you get handed a brief, what does that look like?
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah. So I think the first thing I start, I actually have like all those processes on my side because I usually do a lot of different things. But I think the first thing just like, just like every like copyright or creative would do is research. I go and I, and for me, research is not necessarily like for facts or anything like that, but it would be researching for mostly for insights. Like that’s the thing that I want most. That’s, you know, like if I have a good insight, just like with that Burger King campaign, I know that I’m in a good place and I know that I’ll figure out that execution. But if I find like a good insight, a good human truth that people could relate to, then I know that I have something good here, right? Because people like, you know, like anything that’s interesting, it has to be human, right? Like, we’re not interested. There’s nothing like interesting in seeing just something like robotic, unless we can see something human in it, right? Like, think about it. Even when we look at animals and we kind of think that they’re cute or interesting, it’s because they do things that are a little bit human or a little bit relatable. And I think it’s the same with advertising, right? We always want to find those insights, those little truths that would make things, that would make people actually care about our campaign and not just want to skip it or scroll on. So that’s what I’m looking for. And the way I do it is I go to different places and I call it creative procrastination because that’s like the most fun part about being a creative or a copywriter or whatever, because I can actually do things that other people are not doing. When my girlfriend comes in and she sees what I’m doing, she’s like, you’re not really working. You’re not really busy because I’m browsing Reddit. And I’m a non-gag, and I’m looking at memes, and I’m watching movies. I’m looking through some YouTube stand-up comedy videos and all of that. And I always try to keep it kind of around my subject, right? Because if I go too far, I would definitely lose it. But then I always try to find interesting things that are related to that. And then based on those things, like once I read all those insights, or as Dan Nelkin calls them, buckets, and all those interesting topics that I can explore, then later I go and I try different techniques to actually come up with interesting executions. And those techniques, they’re a bunch of different things that I do. But for example, it would be trying to write some headlines and try to phrase those things in different ways. So for example, using literary devices, and I would try to use alliterations just to try to write that thing in one way. And then I would try to rhyme it, and so on. So that would be this first part of actually finding insights and then writing. And then I guess from there, I would fill my notebook with a lot, a lot of ideas. And it sounds like it’s kind of quick, but it could take two, three days of just going back and forth. And usually, for example, in my current job, I work at a VC firm that’s called GroundUp, and I help our startups create ads. So I usually have enough time to do that. when I worked at an agency, then I would have way shorter deadlines and I wouldn’t have the option to go through that process all the time. But right now, usually the deadlines are not that strict and I really have time to go through the whole process and sometimes give it some time to incubate and actually and actually work through it. So then once I have those headlines and once I have those first things, I sometimes go to the other direction and I would look for visuals. One thing that I really like to do, and I call it visual roulette, where I would go on a website like Unsplash.com. And I would look for random visuals there, right? Or get images or shutterstock. And I would look for completely random images, not something that’s related to my subject. And I would find images that would be anyway intriguing and interesting. And I would try to connect them to my subject, right? Like I would see how this image of like, I don’t know, a person skiing could be relevant to, I don’t know, to an accounting app. And then there, something really special happens, because this lateral thinking process, where I try to connect the dots between two completely unrelated things. And then I also think about my insight that I had before, and maybe the headline that I had before. And then something really special usually happens there. And then I come up with some ideas. I guess it sounds kind of messy, but I guess that’s the creative process. No matter how linear we try to make it look, it’s still a little bit crazy.
Kira Hug: Well, it could, yeah, it could be messy, but it also could be orderly. So I guess for you, is it mapped out somewhere and captured? I know you write about a lot of your processes and share it with your newsletter list and with your community. So is it like—I’m actually going to work through this process I’ve documented, so I cover all the creative exercises? Or is it more organic, where you can look back afterwards and say, here’s what I did to get here, but I kind of just move and figure it out as I go and stay in the flow?
Shlomo Genchin: I think it depends on whether I’m stuck or not, because if I’m not stuck and if it’s just happening organically, then, of course, I would just do it because I’ve done it so many times and I can kind of trust my instinct that my brain would lead me to the right direction. But then if I’m blocked, which happens every single day—then I guess I would go back to my website or my documentations or anything like that. And I would try one of the techniques, right? Like I would try maybe to find an enemy and then go into that direction. Or I would find to try just like really interesting facts that could work and try to build something around them. Or like a visual, as I said, or maybe play with literary devices. So then of course I would go like to that process or maybe find phrases or quotes or something like that and connect these to my subject.
Kira Hug: Could you share? Because you mentioned the Burger King campaign that won awards and it just connects deeply with all of us, right? Because we live through the pandemic and you just look at those images of people eating Burger King on the street and you’re like, oh yeah, I did that. Could you share maybe a couple ideas or maybe ideas or exercises you went through that didn’t quite land but helped you get to the end result?
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, absolutely. So for example, one thing that I tried there… I have this cheat sheet, this like big list of different media channels, right? So these are like different channels where my idea could live. And I, and I always think about it in this way. So rather than thinking this is the media that people usually use, or it’s a tech company, so probably it should be a LinkedIn ad. I always like to look at this list. And I have all the channels there it’s one basically one of the first techniques that I’ve been using. I remember like back in at school I thought about that thing and I just printed all those like different channels on the little list and just carried that folder around with me all the time because it’s so useful you know… I have print, TV, radio, and these are the simple ones. But then I would also go to guerrilla and I would have bus stations, or floor speakers, or or a podcast, or keyword hacking. And there are so many different channels and places where this one idea could live, where this one insight or this one truth could actually happen.
And then when I tried that with that Burger King idea, together with my partner, we try to kind of turn it into this guerrilla idea where we would go out on the street and put those stickers on the floor, for example, and say, this is not a table anymore. Right. And there would be like with this Burger King logo and then in different places. So that was like the first idea.
And that came just like directly from that inside using that list. And then, and then, you know, and then our creative director who was like, He’s an amazing person and he’s done some of the biggest campaigns, I guess, we all see all the time. A lot of work for Ikea, Burger King and some other great brands. He said, this is not working. We kind of need to turn it into something a little bit more real, right? There are no people there. So think a little bit more into the direction of street photography. or something that is a little bit more human, which is, I think, like an amazing piece of feedback, right? Because it’s not like, he didn’t just say like, it’s not working, but he actually thought of how we can turn something that, you know, that at the time was a little bit flat, turning just a floor sticker into something way more human and understandable and relatable and intriguing. So that was, for example, one technique that I used and didn’t work, back then, but it led me later into something good.
Rob Marsh: Talking about something good. So how do you know when you’ve hit the idea? I’m thinking about my own writing process. I’ll write 25 headlines or I’ll have 10 ideas or whatever. And of those ideas and headlines, I know five of them are actually pretty good, right? How do you choose the one? How do you know that’s the winner? Do you have a process for that? Or is it gut feel? How does that work for you?
Shlomo Genchin: So there are a few parts to it. So of course, it’s gut feeling in a way. It’s just that taste thing is something that you develop with time. And I think that even having a good taste, it’s something that happens even earlier than you start making good ads. Because as soon as you start watching a lot of good ads and enjoying them, then you start appreciating good work. But then it takes some time until, at least it took some time for me until I started producing relatively good work that I could also appreciate and see that it was good. Because before that, I just felt like everything I did was bad at some point. So I think, yes, I think definitely it’s just this kind of feeling. and this kind of taste that develops with time where you see like, okay, like this could really work. Like this really reminds me of that campaign or this really, like I can see how like the opposites in that sentence or like the contraction here could be like, like the contrast here, sorry, it could be like really, really interesting. And that’s how it goes from the beginning. But there are also other things that I sometimes do when I need to cook. Because sometimes I just fall in love with my ideas. It’s really hard to kill my babies. Because once I love that idea, and once I’ve been working on that for so long, then suddenly it looks pretty good to me, even if it’s not. And there is something that I’ve been doing for a while now since ChatGPT came out, especially GPT-4, that can process images too. And I use that. to get better feedback on my ads. And there are two exercises that I like to use. So the first one is basically just uploading my image, uploading my draft or my first layout to QPT for, and asking it, just explain this ad. And just this exercise, you sometimes get me really good results because often when I try to be too clever, then I’m risking that I’m not really being clear. And then if GPT gets that, if GPT explains that ad to me in a clear way, then I know that I’m probably heading in the right direction. Or at least I know that people would get it. If people don’t get the ad, which is something that happens sometimes, especially with creative ads, people just don’t get the point. Then if I know that GPT gets it and it explains it well, then I already know that I’m in a good direction, even if nobody has seen it. Because there is no real way to validate an ad except for running it, right? Eventually, we can think as much as we want, but eventually, we won’t really know until we run it. But I think this technique has been working really well for me, just asking GPD, either explain this ad or even doing a more in-depth process where I would ask, what would be the risks with this? Because we’ve seen so many examples of brands uploading social media posts that would get them into so much trouble. I’m not even saying if it would perform well or not, but literally just like, getting the company into real trouble. And I think so much of that could be avoided if sometimes we would just ask GPT, well, what’s the worst that could happen? And usually you would get pretty good answers. And then I’m not saying that you should never take risks anymore, and you should just go super safe always. But at least you would know that, OK, maybe this sentence could be problematic. And that’s something that I’ve been using GPT for quite a lot.
Kira Hug: Yeah, that’s a really good use case for it. I mean, I’ve used it in many ways, but I haven’t necessarily used chat GPT to reflect back, like, what am I trying to say here? Can you, do you get it? Is it clear? Cause it’s always clear in my head, but I also know that sometimes it doesn’t translate or the transitions don’t make sense or the idea is off. And so, yeah, that’s, that’s a really great idea. I want to go back to your story and just kind of continue your story just so I have the full picture. So can we just talk a little bit about leaving ad school and kind of where you’re working today and what that looks like today and that shift for you?
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so once, you know, like once at school was, was about to, you know, about to be over, I, you know, I just, I just had seen that I like, I should, I should do something, right? Like, I should find a way to, you know, like, I should find a way to kind of figure it out for myself, because I knew I don’t want to work for an agency, just like as a full time employee, like I knew I want to travel the world, and I want to do something interesting. and I wanted to kind of you know like try new things and I knew that like that agency life was not really for me as much as I love the craft and as much as I love the people but I had like kind of other dreams I surf and then I wanted to travel the world and surf And I had a lot of other plans.
So at that point, I kind of got on LinkedIn. And before that, I thought that LinkedIn was just like the most cringe place in the world, where people basically just brag and share the boring stuff that they did. But slowly, I saw people like, Eddie Schleiner and a few others that were writing some amazing stuff, and Dan Nelken, and they were writing some amazing stuff and breaking down their processes and giving really useful tips. And at some point, and at school was great, but then I started learning quite a lot from there as well. I would go on LinkedIn, And of course, sometimes just scroll through a bunch of useless posts. But then a few of those people really inspired me. And at some point, I decided, yeah, let’s give it a try. I also write a lot of headlines. I make a lot of ads. Let’s just start breaking those down on LinkedIn. Because at that point, I also noticed something pretty interesting in general about creatives. I think like there’s something about creatives where we’re really like and copywriters and designers were like really people we’re kind of afraid to share our work right because because it’s kind of a scary thing especially like our process or how it did things and sometimes just easier to kind of you know, to kind of share only your best work, right? Like just like Instagram influencers would only share their best moments and only share like the stuff that you’re really proud of, but not share anything else, like no sketches, or never share like, I don’t know, just like raw ideas or stuff like that. And at that point I thought like, and that was like my insight behind it, I felt like it would be interesting if I would just like transparently share everything I did. And that’s what I did. I started sharing my campaigns and then showing like the process like step by step. And that was like kind of my things like add recipes. That’s how I call it today. And showing like this is step one, this is step two, this is step three, and this is how I wrote this headline, right? And then quickly like it went viral. I remember like there was one post that I did for Tinder, and I showed how I wrote a tagline. So the tagline was for every single person, which by the way, a few months later became the tagline of, I think, OKCupid, just randomly, without any connection to me, because I think they worked on the problem much earlier. But it was just a funny thing to see. It was kind of a cool confirmation. But yes, so I really show like that process of writing, which I called elaborate, eliminate, and play. And the idea there was to write this long manifesto about the brand, just write every single word that comes to mind, then eliminate all the unnecessary words, just delete, like scratch out everything that doesn’t matter, and leave only a bunch of keywords, right? So like if we had this like long paragraph full of words, then we would only keep the most interesting ones, like swipe. or single, or person, or the ones that actually mean something. And then take those words and put them in this little word bank, and then play with them until you get an interesting result. You’re going to get a cool headline or tagline. And that was the technique there. And I remember like it exploded, you know, it got like, got like 1000 likes or something like that. And it immediately kind of honestly, like changed my life because I get I like I got a bunch of offers from from potential clients. And from that, you know, and from that moment, I just And I was still in school back then, but I already kind of landed my first clients. And I was like, okay, so this is possible. I don’t have to find a job at an agency. I could actually just freelance and share my stuff online. And that’s going to be pretty interesting.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. I’ve seen a lot of the stuff that you’ve posted on LinkedIn, some of the stuff that you share in your newsletter, and I really like the approach that you take as you walk through the thinking process. It’s sort of a unique way to teach copywriting in a way that is so different from everything else, everybody else is posting about, you know, the way that you should, you do headlines or, I mean, you’re, you’re walking us through the creative process. And I remember even seeing some of this thing and immediately it starts ideas in my head. I’m like, wait a second, I could use a line like that to promote this product that we sell at the copywriter club, or I could use a concept like that, you know? And so it’s a little bit like—the comparison is like looking through a Communication Arts Awards Book for inspiration, only I’m getting a small dose of it on LinkedIn or in your newsletter.
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, exactly. First of all, thank you so much. And that’s the thing that I’ve been trying to create because I think even when you look through those like word books and all of that like you never get the recipe behind them right like sometimes you would get an interview or you would get a short description about the process or anything but like you never get an insight really inside you know like what really happened like how did they find those images like what were the struggles and all of that and i think like that’s that’s really the interesting part, right? And that’s what I’m trying to show transparently, even like when it’s, I don’t know, not as magical as I would like it to be, right? Because I feel like sometimes we like writers or creatives, we want this kind of like vibe of like being magicians, right? Like we want to think that, okay, we just like magically came up with that and that’s our brilliance. But I think like there is also something like very humble and also, I don’t know, like maybe also, kind of good for us because we know that we could reproduce that process if we actually break it down and look at it more simply and actually as a step-by-step process rather than like something completely measurable.
Kira Hug: Today, are you finding your clients, are they finding you through LinkedIn mostly, through your newsletter or through other channels?
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, mostly that LinkedIn, LinkedIn and newsletter. And yeah, and right now, like, I’m, I’m still freelancing, I’m still like doing workshops and, you know, and taking some interesting client work. But I’m mostly working for that VC firm that I told you in the beginning. Because I found that I really wanted to focus more on creating and less on just dealing with clients. Most of the listeners are freelancers, so you know what I’m talking about. And it was just a nice thing for me, first of all, in terms of creation to find that arrangement, but also in terms of opportunities. Because it’s so much nicer to… In our firm, there are 40 to 50 brands that that I can work with and they’re all like early stage startups and they all do super interesting things. So, you know, so I actually get to kind of see the process from inside, like see them grow, see them raise money and also help them, like, you know, come up with ads with creative stunts, help them grow their personal brand. So it’s kind of like a whole, like, it’s kind of a different process rather than just having clients. It’s kind of like really being there, you know, seeing everything from the inside. So that’s also kind of exciting for me.
Kira Hug: Is that something that we could replicate? If someone’s listening, they’re like, well, that sounds good. I want to do something similar and work with a VC firm. I’m sure a lot of it’s about connections too, but how would you recommend a copywriter, a freelance copywriter listening could pursue something like that, which we haven’t talked about on this podcast as much.
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah. Well, actually, I get that question a lot. And when I got that call from the VC firm, I didn’t know what VC was, honestly. At that time, I worked at BDC Paris, and I created just ads for big consumer brands like Michelin, Duolingo. I did all that kind of stuff, and I knew nothing about it. I knew I worked with startups before, but I didn’t really know a lot about this world of venture. and, you know, and raising money and like early stage startups. So yeah, so I was kind of surprised. But then like, you know, when I heard that, and I also didn’t have any connections before, right? It’s not like I was super connected, but it was really through LinkedIn. So I think like, like the point here is that What I always say and I also have like this I wrote this article once about like fake ads create real opportunities. And I think like that’s a really important thing that I live by that, that if you’re really want you know if you want to work with a certain type of clients. no matter what it is. I can go back to the VC firm thing later. But anyway, it’s important to share the type of ads that you want to create, even if you’re not a student anymore. I’m going to create fake ads or spec ads, call them however you want, for the rest of my life, I think. Because I just have those ideas and I just want them to happen. So I just create them and I share them on LinkedIn. sometimes it would be the you know and sometimes just someone would see them and think okay like that’s the kind of work i want to see because you you can like if you only produce work for clients it would never be the work that you want to create like sometimes it would be but but it wouldn’t be always because in many cases like you know you would have I know you would have to sign some agreement that you can share that, or they would make changes at the last moment. But sometimes, if you want to create the work that you actually want to see in the world, or the copy that you actually want to create, then it kind of puts you in a different position. Because you can share that, and people see that, and they would appreciate it, and those opportunities would come to you. That’s exactly what happened to me, and it’s still happening. There was one post, and I think that was just the craziest moment where it got like, I think, 500,000 views or I think even more. And that one post filled my calendar for a whole year. And these were fake ads that I just created for a cup company where I just showed my process. And a lot of people like that. And that’s it. I just got clients for a whole year, basically, just from that single fake ads post. So I think it’s not really about VC firm or or agency or anything, because I think in a lot of places you could get that kind of work where you work with a lot of different clients and you’re not necessarily working full time, but also not really freelancing. But I think the point is that if you want to create a certain type of work, you should create it. And somebody in the world would see that because that’s the power of the internet and you would get those opportunities.
Rob Marsh: I love the idea that fake ads create opportunities. I’m trying to process through, okay, I write sales pages. It’s not likely I’m going to write a 10-page fake sales page. I could certainly create lists of headlines or leads, hooks, those kinds of things, and talk through the recipe for coming up with that stuff. There are probably ways to apply this to white papers and others. I think you have a slight advantage in that you you’re really in this creative sphere where the idea is usually going to be a one-liner attached to a visual, but that thinking process applies across all kinds of work. I’m just really trying to draw a line out of this because I think this is an idea that more copywriters need to steal.
Shlomo Genchin: I don’t think so, yeah. And I really don’t mind them stealing. I try to convince them to do it more, really. Because I think it would make, first of all, we would see more good work online. And second, I think people would get the clients that they deserve. Because if you’re just like, pitching people, you never know if you just try pitching companies separately, which is not a bad thing. I don’t think cold outreach is a bad thing. I think it’s great and it takes courage and it also takes skill. But I think that when you post something that you’ve created online, you pitch 80,000 people or 100,000 people sometimes at the same time if it’s something good. And that’s a whole different scale, right? And then out of those people, probably someone would find you. And that’s kind of different to try and, you know, each company separately where you don’t know what process they have. You don’t know if they actually need someone right now. Like it’s not always about your skill, just like about being there at the right moment as well.
Kira Hug: Yeah. That’s definitely inspiring. And I think we all need a kick in the, you know, a kick in the butt every once in a while to just like try something new and also share our work. I think there’s so many copywriters and I’m one of them where it’s just like, I don’t. I do the work, and I don’t share it. And it’s just a good reminder that as we’re posting on LinkedIn or any social media channel, and we’re creating all this content, one of those posts needs to be, here’s something I worked on, whether it’s real or it is some spec work. This is getting really granular but I know some of the writers listening probably have questions because I think there’s a lot of mindset limiting beliefs or just head trash around. Oh my gosh, how do I do this, can I do this, so I guess can you break down. When you’re posting that and you’ve done the work and you’ve created this tagline or headline for this company, are you then tagging the company? Are you trying to get their attention or are you less worried about that and you’re just trying to share this really cool headline or tagline with your audience knowing that it’ll just attract a lot of attention? I guess, can you just like break down the details of how you present it and your thinking? Because again, I know a lot of writers want to do this, but they just won’t do it. They won’t do it.
Shlomo Genchin: Absolutely. And I think like two things about that. So the first one, like two things kind of encourage me to do that because you know like I don’t have as much experience as you guys for example right and like like and there’s always like you can always get better right like it’s not like you’re never perfect you’re never like ready to share right like it’s always like you’re always waiting for like for the right moment to come. And I was waiting for it for a while. And then two things kind of shifted my mindset. The first one was that book, Show Your Work by Austin Kleon. I don’t know if you’ve heard of it, but I think it’s amazing. You can read so much stuff online about start sharing your stuff, build your personal brand. I think all of that is pretty unnecessary. If you read his work and if you read his short little book, it covers literally everything you would read on LinkedIn about building a personal brand in five years. So I think that’s an amazing resource and that helped me a lot. And then the second thing was I spoke to a friend of mine and I was like, I’m, and that was back when I just started and I was like you know I’m just I’m just a student like nobody would listen to me and like why would I like I’m not an authority like why would I even share what I think if like, you know, like, like how can I give other people advice. If I don’t even know what I’m doing myself right. And then he told me something really smart. He said, you know those guys on YouTube who just build boats and just share their process? They just say, OK, I’m going to build that boat. And that’s it. And they take you with them as they learn, as they go through the struggles. And eventually, they have a boat. They don’t just brag and show their boat. They actually take you through the process. And he said, yeah, so be that guy. Be the person who builds a boat and not just shows their boat. And I was like, yeah, you’re right. Everything I need to do is just use those kind of humbling words. Rather than saying, look at what I’ve done, look how great I am, or I’m so honored to share my awesome work or something like that, I would just say, yeah, here’s a little something I tried. Or I challenged myself to do this, this, and that. Or here’s my process. What do you think? and all of that. And I still do it in the same way, because I still don’t think I’m some sort of authority, and I’m ready to share all my advice. I don’t think I’ll ever will be ready. I’m just learning. So really, you can look at all my last posts, and it’s always like, I challenge myself. I created those concepts. I tried this. I challenged myself to write 50 headlines. Let’s see how it goes. And then sometimes, yeah, I would tag the company. And sometimes I would speak to them, and maybe it would work. Maybe it would not. But it doesn’t matter because even if it doesn’t work out with that specific company, it would work with another. So it’s more about sharing that and less about lending that specific client. Although that could be cool as well.
Rob Marsh: Okay, I want to go back. You know, you mentioned how you were using ChatGPT to validate ideas in the ads that you come up with. I’m curious, what other ways are you using AI to increase your creativity or your writing process? You know, what things are you doing with it that maybe we could adopt?
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah, so I’ll give you a few ideas that I’ve been exploring lately. So one is really that interview. It’s kind of hard to understand other people, right? And one example that I gave in one of my posts was I was doing those spec ads. I was creating those spec ads for Kindle. And I wrote that I really don’t get people who don’t use Kindle, right? What is it about real books? And I have a couple of books here, but this is literally my physical library. I don’t have any books because I’m obsessed with Kindle. And I think it’s so much better. And then you know, when you write ads like that, you really have to understand the other side, right? Because even if you’re convincing people to use Kindle, you still need to understand the objections. You still need to understand why people are not using Kindle.
And that’s one of the things that are great about GPT, because you can ask it to step into anyone’s shoes. And then what I tell GPT is like, okay, you’re a person who knows about Kindle, you know about the benefits, but you’re still deciding not to use it. Like, tell me, like, what’s, what’s wrong with you? Like, what’s the matter? And then GPT would go like, okay, so I like the smell of books, right? I like the, I like the physical, like kind of feeling of it. in my hands and I like the fact that it’s you know that it decorates my room it’s it’s on my shelf and all that and then suddenly I would get like 10 objections that are pretty perfect and I wouldn’t like sometimes I would be able to think of them but then like you know in five seconds I get like a perfect list of objections that I can immediately work with and either try to tackle or just to understand, or at least I’m aware of them and I know what it’s all about. So that’s one way. And then another way is really just something that I called the before and after table. And the before and after table is when I think how the life of my customer, prospect looks before they know about the product or use it and how it looks after. And often, I would really ask GPT to write that schedule. I would say, write me the schedule, write me a day in the life framework or I don’t know what of a person who lives in New York and she just moved there and she can’t speak English. For example, if it’s an ad for Duolingo or some English school or something like that. and all the situations where she encounters that. And then I would get this beautiful schedule, hour by hour, where she goes to the subway and she can’t speak English, so she can’t buy tickets. And then she goes somewhere else. And I can see all that day, and all those struggles, and pain points, and all those interesting situations. Because if we’re creating ads or copy, they’re useless if we don’t have specific examples of what actually happens with the reader’s lives. And then there we can get those beautiful stories and schedules, even if they’re not super creative, but still it gives me a really good idea of points I can tackle. And then I do the same just with the after. So I think about the before, and then I say, OK, so now how their life would look once they know about the product. And then I get all the rest of it. So these are two techniques that I’ve been using a lot.
Kira Hug: Yeah, that’s great. I’m going to snag the before and after idea for one of my emails, future emails. I want to go back to agency life. And so I never worked for an ad agency. I did get an offer for a job out of college at Kaplan Thaler in New York City. Should have taken it. I should have taken it. I was like, this doesn’t pay enough. It was $27,000. And I was like…
Rob Marsh: Typical. That’s the problem with ad agencies. Entry level is so cheap…
Kira Hug: But then I took another job. I took a worse job. A way worse job for basically the same amount. And so anyway, regret that. But I guess going back to like you shared, you know, you went to ad school, and then you knew coming out of it that you didn’t want to work for an ad agency. And here you are, like, you know, really talented, creative person that the ad agency world lost. And so I guess I’m just wondering if you have, you know, a viewpoint on the future of ad agencies, and if I don’t think you’re atypical. I’m sure there are many creatives who are just like, I don’t want that. That does not serve a creative life. And so I’m just curious what your view is on the future of ad agencies, knowing that it may not attract all the talent that it used to.
Shlomo Genchin: Yeah. Well, I think I’m going to answer the question quite differently. Because I don’t think I have a really smart view or take on the way ad agencies are structured or built. Because so many people have spoke about it already, and they know much more than I do. Because first of all, I didn’t spend enough time working at agencies to actually know everything about it and say, OK, this model is broken. It’s still working. And I still don’t see another alternative. I really believe in in-house teams, and I see that a lot of big brands are doing it today. But I still don’t think there would be a solution that would solve everything. We still need agencies. So I really don’t know about the future of them. But I can say one thing that I think that really a lot of creatives are moving into the B2B world now. And a lot of people who used to work in those traditional agencies are kind of discovering that the tech world and the B2B scene is really interesting. In the past, we thought, all right, so there are the cool brands like Burger King and Duolingo and Doritos and stuff like that. And then there are the boring brands like, I don’t know, IBM, or even stuff that is even more boring. I don’t know, like Asana or something. We know that they exist. We know that those are huge companies. But we don’t know anything else about them as creatives at agencies. But then I feel like a lot of creatives are now discovering. And I kind of always compare it to those times in the 60s, before the creative revolution, where everyone was like, Sure, like if you want to advertise in a car or promote it, you just need to show the features, right? You just need to show like why it’s the best and that’s it. And then came people like, you know, David Ogilvie and all the other people in the creative revolution and they kind of changed it and they turned it into something way more interesting, engaging, creative, and what we know today as advertising. So I think the same process is happening with B2B right now. I think we’re in the middle of this revolution because you’re seeing so many awesome ads from brands like Upwork, Soundly, and Slack. and things like that. I think that’s only the beginning because if you look at S&P 500 or Fortune 500 companies, you would see that there are so many tech companies there that they have brands, they have a logo, they have corporate colors, but there’s nothing really happening behind that. And I think that a lot of creatives would move there And I don’t know what would happen to regular agencies. I guess there are enough people to make ads, because it’s not like we’re heart surgeons or something. At the end of the day, we’re creatives, and it’s OK. They would find someone to make ads, I guess. But then I think that a lot of times, people would find a lot of interesting challenges and a lot of interesting briefs and adventures in the tech world. And I think that would get a lot of attention in the next 10 years, in my opinion.
Rob Marsh: Yeah, as I think about advertising agencies and where they’re going, in my head, there’s really two functions of the agency. One is ideas, and then everything else is distributing those ideas and getting them in front of consumers. And I think It’s really easy in a lot of ways to separate the ideas from the agency itself. I don’t see the other stuff going away. If you’re a company with many products and you need ads showing up in order to attract those consumers, there’s efficiencies of scale that happen in the agency with planning, with account management, with media buying, that kind of stuff. there’s no reason that we can’t peel away a lot of that creative thought and, you know, the ideas and have, you know, like what you’ve done, you know, it’s like, I can come up with the ideas all day long. I’ll give you, you know, campaigns flushed out, you know, images, copy, whatever, and then turn it over and let somebody else handle, you know, okay, well, where does this have to appear? You know, how, how many times, you know, how much, you know, reach do we need to achieve with this particular campaign, all that kind of stuff. So I do think there’s a huge opportunity here for more creatives to freelance for agencies. It’s something that we haven’t talked a lot about on the podcast, but certainly people who have that capability and tons of good thinkers out there.
Shlomo Genchin: Right. Yeah, I totally agree. And I think like, yeah, and by the way, like freelancing for agencies, like whether it’s B2B or B2C, like, that’s also what I did most of the time, because when I worked for B2C, for example, I lived in Mexico and Costa Rica, I was like, I really wanted to kind of make this dream come true and serve there for a while and that’s you know and I worked from there and just did everything from there and that was that was like awesome you know like I didn’t of course experience the agency life and you know like all the cool stuff that they have there but I had the freedom that I was looking for and also like the creative challenges that I wanted so so I think totally like I think that’s that’s a really good arrangement for a lot of people and I guess for agencies too because I think if we’re talking about the future of agencies, then I guess their biggest problem in a way is that they have so much stuff. And then you never know. Sometimes they would have a lot of briefs, and then everyone would burn out. And then sometimes they won’t have any work, and then everyone is just sitting there and not doing anything. So I think for them, working with freelancers is also a great arrangement. And a lot of agencies are doing it now. So I think this is also a good opportunity for us writers.
Kira Hug: Yeah, definitely. So as we wrap up, I just have a couple quick questions or just one quick question. You mentioned you wrote for Tinder, right?
Shlomo Genchin: So that was just a spec ad.
Kira Hug: Yes. Okay. What type of research did you do for Tinder? Can you just give us a glimpse into the research process in like a minute or so, what you did for Tinder?
Shlomo Genchin: Absolutely. So I think the coolest part there is that I didn’t do any research. I just did that manifesto and I just wrote everything I knew about the brand. And I already knew it. And I think it’s an important point as well, that sometimes we spend so much time on research and we spend hours in front of our laptops just thinking, all right, maybe this next article will get us to the thing that we need. But then if we look at the best campaigns and best ideas, usually they’re kind of based on things that anyway, everyone knows already. This is usually, especially if we’re talking top of the funnel stuff, like creative campaigns and billboards and stuff like that, usually it would be stuff that everyone already knows. And that’s why I think there’s something really awesome about just closing your laptop and actually just writing everything you already know about the brand. And sometimes, first of all, you would save a lot of time and effort. And second, sometimes the best ideas would already be there just without doing any research, which I’m all for research. And I use Google Scholar a lot. Sometimes I dig really deep to find facts and interesting ideas there. But then I also think that, especially if it’s a famous brand, It’s always just interesting to go after the things that you already know, because you’ve been living so far for I don’t know how many years, so you already know a lot of things anyway intuitively. So why not use that? And that’s exactly what I did there with the process.
Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Shlomo Genshin. And I want to just add a couple of thoughts to our conversation just to give you just a little bit more to think about as you apply these ideas into your own business.
At the very, very beginning of this episode, Shlomo mentioned the magic of copywriting and this superpower that we all have to persuade anyone to buy anything and that it is easy. Of course, anybody who’s been doing this for more than a few weeks know that it’s actually not that easy. There are skills that you need to develop. You can’t just write words. There are persuasion techniques you need to learn. You need to understand where your customer is in their buyer journey, what their worldview is like, the problems that you’re going to solve. all of that stuff. And so, yeah, it’s kind of funny. A lot of us are attracted to copywriting because we do think of it as this superpower that we can exercise. And some of us even buy into those promises, work from the beach, make six figures, all of that kind of stuff. Obviously, there are a couple of different approaches to getting into copywriting and Shlomo took the ad school approach. which is literally a college built around building a portfolio that shows off your thinking ability, your strategic ability, and your ability to come up with great ads, campaigns, and ideas, solutions to problems.
We talked a little bit about this with Luke Sullivan in episode 115. He actually runs an ad school. And so if that’s an interesting idea to you, You should definitely check out that episode. You know, it really is a different way of creating hooks and headlines, concepts and big ideas than most of us take when we’re writing in the direct response world or in the online conversion space. because ads living out in the world need to be interesting, entertaining, engaging, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t learn from it or even borrow some of these techniques because capturing attention, being interesting, being engaging is just as important for the work that we do. And that’s part of why we wanted to talk to Shlomo about what he does.
Shlomo also mentioned brainstorming as a process, but it’s not just, you know, sit down, totally freewheeling it, put ideas down on paper, there’s actually a process that good copywriters go through as they’re thinking through ideas. We talked about this with a couple of other copywriters recently on the podcast, Dave Harland, that’s episode 339. He shared the grid that he draws out as he brainstorms different ideas. And Shlomo even mentioned Dan Nelken, who we interviewed in episode 348. Dan talks about his approach to bucketing out ideas and shares a few other tips when it comes to creating headlines, hooks, and different ideas.
And as we talked about brainstorming, Shlomo mentioned one other thing, and that is that he’s always searching for that good human truth. This is an idea that I first learned about when I was writing in an ad agency way more than 20 years ago. I learned this from a creative director who was telling us that we should be looking for the weird truth. Something weird, something that stands out and is true that is going to resonate deeply with the person that we’re writing to or trying to help. So looking for that good human truth or the weird truth or that insight is absolutely critical when it comes to the brainstorming process. That’s really what it’s all about.
I appreciate that Shlomo shared that his research includes everything from watching movies and YouTube and watching standup and collecting memes and checking out platforms and channels—what he called visual roulette. I think these are all really good steps in the brainstorming process to come up with ideas and to see things a little bit differently.
Finally, Shlomo mentioned the LinkedIn post that he said filled his year with clients. Those are the kinds of ideas on the podcast that always make my ears prick up. I’m like, wait a second, you filled an entire year with clients based off of one post? And I’m sure that’s something that a lot of you listening would love to replicate.
Remember, the kind of content that Shlomo posts is unique. It really does stand out from everything else. And it’s not just speaking to an audience of copywriters, but it speaks to the process that he goes through so clients can see how he thinks and how he solves problems. Remember, as a copywriter, you don’t just write words. You are solving problems. And the bigger the problem that you solve, the more valuable you are. And Shlomo’s posts show that in a very big, unique way. That goes along with that idea that we were just talking about. Fake ads create opportunities for the same reason. You’re showing how you solve a problem when you create a spec ad or when you just show your thinking ability. You show that you solve big problems. So that’s something to consider as you think about what you’re going to share on social media, whether it’s on LinkedIn or Instagram, Twitter, wherever you show up in the world, you want to do it in a way that stands out, but also shows off your process for solving big ideas so clients can see how you think.
I want to thank Shlomo for joining us to chat about his work. You can find out more about him by following him on LinkedIn or by visiting his website, thecreativemarketer.net, where you can sign up for his newsletter. And that’s where he shares his creative recipes. Definitely worth checking out.
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