When it comes down to it, the thing most copywriters want to build is a business that is high-margin (it makes money) and fun to run (it’s enjoyable). But achieving that goal is harder it appears. So we invited Ian Stanley to join us for the 392nd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast. We asked Ian about how he did it—created a business that is profitable and fun. We also asked him about sales coaching, breaking up his partnership, his approach to email and his new comedy special. To hear what Ian had to share, click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

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Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: How do you create a high-margin company that is fun to run? That’s pretty much the goal we all share… earn enough money for the lifestyle we want—however you define that—that’s the high margin part. And enjoy life doing whatever it is you do, from work to whatever you do in your personal time—that’s the fun to run part.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter, entrepreneur and comedian Ian Stanley. This is actually Ian’s second appearance on the podcast, so we caught up on how his business has changed in the past couple of years. And as we talked about that, we asked Ian about sales training, breaking up a partnership, commedy and buidling a company that makes money and is fun to run. One caution about this episode, Ian likes to swear. We’ve cut most of that out of the interview in order not to offend the censors at Apple who like to put an explicit label on anything rated higher than PG. But if we missed any, we apologize. That’s just who Ian is and how he shows up.  

One other thing before we get to the interview… you’ve heard me talk about the copywriter underground and what it includes. If you’ve been thinking about joining this amazing community, let me give you two reasons to jump in now. During the month of May we have two incredible bonuses for members. The first is a limited time Client Emails Masterclass with Michal Eisik. Michal launched her business after completing the copywriter accelerator and think tank, and will be sharing this usually-paid masterclass with members of the underground… but only for one week in May. And we have a second bonus… it’s the strategic plan that copywriter Daniel Throssell used to make his client’s book a best seller in Australia. It works for non-book products too. Daniel has only shared this plan one time… to paid subscribers to his newsletter. It’s not currently available anywhere. But he offered to give it—completely free of charge—to members of The Copywriter Undergound. And like the Client Emails Masterclass, this member exclusive is only available for one week during the month of May in The Underground. If you’ve been thinking of joining, these are two very good reasons to jump in now—if you were to purchase either one of these bonuses sepearately, you’d pay more than what you pay to join The Underground for a single month. And I haven’t even mentioned all the other training, coaching, and community stuff that comes along with these two bonuses. Visit thecopywriterclub.com/tcu to claim your free bonuses now.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Ian.

Kira Hug: All right, Ian, let’s jump in, not with your story, because we know part of your story from our last interview, but let’s just start with changes, at least one change you’ve made over the last four years. Maybe we talked to you four years ago, Rob, do you know? We’ll say four years ago.

Ian Stanley: Something like that.

Kira Hug: Over four years ago.

Rob Marsh: I mean, it was definitely, it was what? Episode 208. So it’s closing in on four years anyways.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Yeah. All right. So what is one big change you’ve made to your business since we last chatted?

Ian Stanley: To my business? I feel like little businesses like this change constantly. So honestly, the biggest change that’s happened is my business partner and I, so basically I was living in LA. I’d gone there to pursue standup. And then this COVID thing happened and stand up itself was, you know, in question. Cancel culture was at its absolute peak. I had a guy tell me that I was, I said in an ad, I said, I’m a white man. Not exactly. And he said, you can’t say that. And I went, I, what do you mean? That’s a fact. What am I supposed to say? Um, and that’s when I was like, Jesus, this is getting bad. While I was in LA watching nonviolent protests, violently, uh, protest from my actual window. Um, and so I was like, I gotta get out of here. So I left LA and I mean, it sounds weird to say now, cause I feel like standup is almost bigger than ever in certain ways. Um, But it died off for a while there. And I think that the worse the world is, the more important stand up is. Because it’s just funnier in ways, too, because things are so insane. It’s easy to write material when the world itself is a ridiculous place full of people getting mad at white men that say that they’re white. So I moved to Idaho and said, OK, I’m going to focus on business now for the next little while here, because There’s no standup. And so my business partner and I went hard into like, let’s build a big business. Let’s do this whole thing. So we ended up with, you know, selling high ticket stuff over the phone. We had, you know, six or seven phone sales people. We were running a bunch of traffic on YouTube. 

I was coaching the sales team, which I’m very good at, but I despise. It’s basically like being a therapist. And basically if one of your phone sales people,, if his wife says something mean that morning or he doesn’t sleep right, you lose money, you know, and, and you realize that like every, or they just have one bad call or whatever. And it was just not for me. So, uh, And I know this is a slightly longer story than you may have asked for, but it’s a pretty relevant one, I think. So last March, about a year ago, my business partner and I had been watching The Office for the, I don’t know, sixth time all the way through. And I had this thought, what would happen if we were in an office for eight hours a day? Like, how much would we actually get done? How good would that be? And so we had rented this house we called The Hoffice. So it was just like a home office that two of our employees lived in and that we would work at. So we did this. I was like, let’s just try it for a week. 

So we go in Monday. We had a great time. I’m like, oh my God, we got so much done. This was really cool. We go in Tuesday. And by the end of Tuesday, I’m like, this is perhaps the worst thing I’ve ever experienced. I hate this. I hate this so much. And because and there’s only like seven of us, but they’ll ask me questions, ask Kim questions, who is my business partner and you don’t get anything done. And I went home and I was like the most tired I’ve ever been. And I understand that for anybody here, they can make Europe pathetic. How can you not work one eight hour day? I don’t, I’ve never had—the closest thing I had to a real job—I would be there for like five to six hours and I was writing copy and I would, you know, I figured out my schedule in a way that worked for me. And I was just so exhausted and depleted and annoyed. And I just, I was like, there’s something’s wrong. Like, this is not right. And the phone sales is such a nightmare.

I would recommend most people, if you want to do a high ticket phone sales program, just understand that either you will be miserable for an extended period of time, and then And then you maybe will have a sales manager who will do it for you. And then they’ll probably quit. And then you’ll lose all your money. And I wasn’t actually miserable. I’m a very happy person. So it’s very relative. But for me, having to do one hour of coaching calls a day is like a non-negotiable. I can’t do it. I just can’t do that part of it. And so that night, I was just like, something’s got to change. And I was so tired. It was like my bones we’re giving up. 

And I was just thinking like, someone’s got to change here. And I wrote out this plan for how my business partner and I could split up the business and we could stop doing phone sales. And I  had all this energy, like a huge burst of energy at like nine at night, just like, Holy, this could be it. This could work. But then I’m like, Oh my God, I got to tell my business partner that I don’t want to do this anymore. And we’re best friends. And so the next day we go to the office at the end of my K let’s, uh, Let’s go get a drink. And we go get a drink. And I’m like, hey, man, I don’t want to do this anymore in this way. And he’s like, oh, my God, me neither. That’s so exciting. 

And so we basically just realized that because we were doing a few hundred grand a month and but the margins are never that like, you keep growing and you’re like, why don’t we have more money? Like, I’m making less money working six to eight hours a day sometimes than I was making when I was working an hour or two a day and had all this free time for these other things and didn’t have all these people to manage. And so we figured out this breakup plan and he took the email list management agency and I took back the company and it was glorious. Beautiful. And so since May of last year, so nearly a year now, I’ve been running it on my own again. It’s been super easy and fun and profitable. And then I recorded my first comedy special in November. I released it five days ago. It premiered. And so that’s a huge, that’s like, you know, as a comic, that’s kind of what you work towards. After taking basically a couple years off from LA to move here and not really having places to perform, it’s a completely changed trajectory. And so I’m primarily doing that and then running the business as well. So a lot of changes. Living in Idaho instead of LA, a very different vibe, much prettier, much less traffic. much cleaner air, much nicer people, much less human feces on the ground. There’s not even dog poop on the ground here. Like there’s not, I have not seen trash in downtown Boise. Like if somebody drops like a bottle, they pick it up in LA people, they throw it at you. And so, yeah, lots of changes.

Rob Marsh: Wow. Yeah. Boise is one of the cleanest places I’ve ever been. I live in Salt Lake, which is another clean city. Yeah.

Ian Stanley: Your air quality is so questionable.

Rob Marsh: In the summer, if there’s a fire or in the winter, if it gets really cold, we actually didn’t have an inversion this year, which is kind of nice. That’s nice. This has been our best air year in forever. But we didn’t come on the podcast to talk about our air.

Ian Stanley: I don’t know, man. This could be riveting podcast content. They’re like, wow, I went to listen to this thing and they talked about the weather.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Why is there so much smoke in the Salt Lake Valley since the 1840s? Who knows? I have some questions based, I mean, there’s about five different things that I want to ask as we go through this. But I want to jump back to what you were doing coaching the sales team, because I think this is something most copywriters don’t do. We might have a sales job at some point where we learn those sales skills. But when you’re building a sales team, you’re instilling those skills into people so that they can sell. So even though you didn’t love that part of the job, what were the things that you were teaching your sales team in order to make them better at selling? How did you get that stuff into their brains?

Ian Stanley: That’s a good question. Well, well done. I, uh, that’s a great one. Um, I actually enjoyed doing it. Like I would enjoy being on with them and watching them change and watching their energy shift and, and, but What pissed me off was just it was the complete anti-lifestyle business because literally my entire business and traffic was based on human emotion and human energy, basically. Like, if this person’s… Like, any split test you ran, you didn’t know if it was valid because it might have been that salesman number two’s wife drank again. And he didn’t actually even take calls. But you know, like so many little things that would or they just lost confidence for a week. Or there was a lot of two steps forward, one step back of like learning some strategy to selling, but then falling back on their confidence. And so I’d say the main stuff that I could tell that I thought that’s different than what most people do, because I was working with Cole Gordon, who’s a buddy of mine who I’d consulted for, and we joined his group and It’s really good sales training, like the tactics and techniques. For me, I was basically just coaching their beliefs and their belief in themselves. But ultimately, the way that I sell is very different than most people. And we did not do the high-pressure, douchey, fake tactics and things. I was very adamant that people had to leave the call feeling good either way, because we did some secret shopping of other people’s calls, and it was heavily shame-based. So it was pretty much like, they’d be really nice to the person. And then towards the end of the call, if the guy was like, I don’t think I don’t know if I can do it right now. They’d be like, Oh, do you want? Oh, you want your kids?

Rob Marsh: They really, they really said that.

Ian Stanley: Honestly, not far off certain ones. And it’d be like, Oh, you want your kids to think that dad’s a pussy? Is that what it is?

Rob Marsh: Or even provide for your family, like that kind of stuff.

Ian Stanley: Yeah. Yeah. Like very much like, Oh, I thought that you said you wanted to change your life. Now you’re saying that you don’t. It sounds like this is why you’re going to be a loser forever. Like stuff that’s like, we had one of my employees had gone on a call and he literally felt bad about himself for like two days. Now he was, you know, had his own insecurities and stuff, but I mean, they were like to the point where he was feeling terrible for a while about this. And I was like, dude, that’s on them. That’s not you. And so it was about selling in a really authentic way. And so really the most useful thing I would teach them, and I think that applies to copy and any form of selling is that we’re not selling a result, we’re selling a feeling. And that feeling is typically in this case is freedom. 

So teaching people how to write emails for other companies and you know, and our product has like the highest success rate of any I’ve seen at least. And, um, you know, so we knew, we know it works. We know that it’s legit and it’s, it doesn’t require investments. There’s also not all the bull like, Oh, here’s my $5,800 product. Now you need my coaching program and upsell. It’s like, here’s the program and there’s no expenses. There’s no ad costs. There’s nothing. So we felt good about all that. But it was really like, What I would tell them is figure out the thing they actually want and then just talk about that thing. So as an example, it would be most people think they’re selling a program on how to write emails to make money. And I’d say, that’s not what you’re selling. 

Let’s take an example of one guy’s. I keep missing my son’s soccer matches, right? I just want to go to my son’s soccer matches and be there for those. So now we’re no longer selling. So, and that would be, and that’s the advantage of phone sales and one-on-one selling is discovering the actual thing underneath the thing, right? So they say, well, I want to quit my job. Okay. Well, why do you want to quit your job? Well, I just, I don’t like my boss and I don’t make enough money and I don’t have freedom. Okay. Well, what would you like, what would you like look like if you didn’t have your boss and you only had to work two hours a day? Well, I’d live in a different house. I’d, I’d be able to, you know, hang out with my family and I’d stop missing my son’s soccer matches. Cause I keep having to go in on Saturdays. And you go, that’s the thing. That’s the thing that this person actually wants, because my goal is to get them to stop thinking in words and start thinking in pictures. So if instead of a thought of, I’m going to not have this job, instead in their mind, because it takes them out of their logical mind, when I can get them to just imagine being at the soccer field. 

Or like another example, guys, like I just want to have a house with a big enough yard so I can play with my kids. you know, it’s whatever that thing is that they say is the thing or somebody back, I want to buy this car for my dad. Okay. So what color is that car? Okay. What’s the, what’s the make of it? Okay. So just for a second, just imagine your dad behind the wheel of that car. How does that feel? It feels amazing. That’s what I want for you. And so it would, and then basically throughout the sales process, it’s bringing them back to not to 10 grand a month, It’s bringing them back to the car for their dad or not missing the soccer matches. And so it was really just a very human approach to finding out what a person actually wanted and then continuously reminding them that that’s what they were actually buying. 

They weren’t buying a course. They were buying this future that they had said that they wanted. So that was a big part of it. And then Honestly, the other part was I would have them meditate before their calls. I had like a three minute meditation I created for them to just shift their energy because ultimately sales is just a transfer of feelings. And if your feelings and energy are off, then you could say all the right and completely fail. And like I sold the first 50 people into the program myself and I closed 49 out of the 50 people. And, and there’s partially because I was the guru and the face of it and whatever, but I just treat people like people. And I had one guy who was like, oh, I don’t know if this is right for me. And I was like, OK, cool. He’s like, I got to talk to my wife. And what guys will say is they go, oh, you have to talk to your wife? 

Oh, that’s cool. I didn’t know she wore the pants in the relationship. That’s interesting. And they’ll go, oh, I would just go, oh, that’s awesome. Definitely you should talk to her. The only question I would ask you is, what would it feel like? where buying a program for $5,000 was such a small, inconsequential amount of money to you that you wouldn’t have to have that conversation. And then I’d go, go talk to her though. I’m not trying to then close. And I let them actually go. And then a day later, the guy comes back and say, yo, I’m in. Instead of me having that desperation, it’s that commission breath. That was so much of it was having them not come from a place of desperation and the need to sell because the second you get on the call and you’re in that mindset, the person on the other end can feel it and they are out. We’ve all been there. We’ve all experienced that salesperson who you’re like, this guy, like I think he needs this or he’s not eating and it just turns you off completely. So it was largely, and this isn’t to say that the tactic side isn’t important and understanding price reveals and you know, building rapport and things, but ultimately all of that can almost be transcended by just giving up. That was really, I was like, remember that even if in the beginning you think they don’t have the money, you think they’re a bad candidate, you think whatever, just treat them like a person, care about them. And you may be surprised cause this person’s like, Oh, I make a thousand dollars a month. And then you find out at the end of the call that they got in a car accident and have $25,000 in their account from a settlement. And they can’t afford it, and they’re a good person. And so it’s like, yeah, it’s largely just managing their feelings, which is.

Kira Hug: It sounds like you’re really, really good at sales, 49 out of 50, and coaching, and helping change the beliefs in other people. But from your story, it sounds like that’s not something that you enjoy as much, or it was draining you.

Ian Stanley: I hate scheduling calls. I hate scheduling. I hate things on my schedule. So like the idea that I, yeah. And it was also like, well, the best time to do it is in the morning before they start their day. And I was like, yeah, but I want to write in the morning and like have my life, you know? And so it just really wasn’t congruent with my personal lifestyle. If you’re willing to work a lot more and even so like literally if you didn’t talk to them for a few days you would watch sales go down like it’s it’s that fickle of a beast where like they need to be motivated and it’s largely therapy is what it is it’s just really working on the individual more so because until they get to that point of sales skill once they had the skill like they know how to sell they would just start doubting themselves or they would you know, get worried about not making enough sales or they’d get arrogant. That was one that happened is that was a big mistake as they start to get overconfident and they would go, Oh, I don’t need to ask all these questions anymore. I can just go on and close them. And you’re like, no, you’re now mistaking the result for, you’re not realizing that all those little pieces of why you sold them as well. So I’d rather just sell it for $2,000 on a video. and not have to have anybody in the way.

Kira Hug: Yeah. So, I mean, you realize this is not for me and then you pivoted. How do you know when it’s just simply not for you or you need to push through and you need to get to the next stage and that it could be for you if you just rearrange a couple of things or when you just need to jump and tell your partner this isn’t working?

Ian Stanley: I think there’s two things for me. One is, do you actually want the end goal? And that was what really became clear to me was, I don’t care. I don’t care if this business does 20 million a year. That doesn’t matter to me. And I don’t want 25, 30 employees. I want, I’d rather have 100,000 a month in profit, work in an hour to a day, then build this bigger thing and do all this stuff. So that’s the, I mean, I think so many people are climbing a mountain they don’t actually want to get to the top of. And then they think that committed and that, you know, well, I’ve already, I’m already here. I’ve already done all this. I can’t change now. I mean, there’s a difference between quitting and giving up. And I think it’s a huge distinction. Giving up is when you stop doing something and you still want the end result. Quitting is when you realize that you don’t actually want the end result. And quitting is a incredible skill to have because it’s so many people just do a thing they don’t want to do because they think, oh, that’ll make me a quitter. We should be a quitter. You just shouldn’t ever give up. I’ve never given up at something. If I want the goal, I’ve never given up. It doesn’t matter how much pain I’m in with physical stuff that I’ve done, my crazy endurance stuff or whatever. I won’t give up. But if you decide you don’t want the end goal, then you should quit. And so that’s a big one. And then if energetically and like, just like instinctually, it feels just very wrong and you’re fighting your nature. Like what I struggled with for a while was I’ve lived, a large portion of my life now based on the concept of surrender. And so, which like the main book is The Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer. And I’ve read it like 18 times. And so you sometimes ask yourself, where is the surrender? And am I surrendering to myself and my preferences? And so it’s like one of his things is there’s a really good thing that I’d recommend anybody listen to. It’s like, I think it’s on Audible. It’s a one of his surrender audios around like work or surrender in the workplace or business or something like that. And he goes, it’s like an hour and a half. And he talks about how the primary function of business is to let go of parts of yourself. And so, and business will do that, you know, working with other people and all these things. But what I realized is I was like, okay, well the surrender is I don’t want to do this. So therefore I have to let go and just do it. And it’s like, no, the real surrender was I’m doing the wrong thing. And I have to let go of the business in its current way and let go of the relationship with my business partner and deal with that and move forward. So I think if it, if it just feels off energetically and you’re constantly tired and you constantly don’t want to work, you’re probably doing the wrong thing. Like if I start writing, I’m working on a novel right now and a screenplay. And then like with standup, it does, I have to make myself stop. doing those things. Like I’m like, I should write an email for my business. One more scene. I’ve got this idea, you know, and it’s like, and it’s not to say that all work is going to just pull you through it and all of that, but it’s, it’s that like, if it doesn’t naturally pull you in some way, there’s probably something wrong, you know? And it’s, it’s probably not the right thing. So it was just trying to fit a square peg in a round hole and watching. And also I think another huge one is actually just like, It kind of fits in with, are you climbing the wrong mountain? Is this someone else’s dream that I’m trying to achieve? And do I want the lifestyle of the people who are where I think I want to be? So I’d go to the event with all the guys doing a bunch of phone sales. And I’d talk to them. And even at the events, when I go to events, I’m partying. I’m having a good time. I’m drinking. I’m bringing the fun. I’m not that worried about the next day. And these guys, they’re like, especially at this event, like, Oh, no, I gotta, I gotta be dialed in. And I realized it’s actually because running a phone sales business is so challenging that you need the event to do it. And you got to be focused in there. But all of them either worked constantly and weren’t very happy. Or if they didn’t work constantly, they did for an extended period of time. And then they have a sales manager. And almost every person there had fired what had had one of their sales managers quit. And then they had to restart and say like, man, none of these people are that stoked. You know, they all want to either sell the company or be done with what they’re doing. So why would I want to do that? You know, and so that’s part of it is just looking at other people who are where you think you want to be actually where you want to be.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk a little bit about the discussion with your partner about breaking up because clearly he also was feeling something the same. It was mutual. But what was that discussion like and your mindset, his mindset going into it, coming out of it? How do you make sure that, you know, it stays amicable? I’m sure it helps the fact that you both were kind of done. But there’s a lot of risk going into a conversation like that where the other person takes a lot of offense, maybe it doesn’t go well. So I’m just interested in that whole discussion and how that all came together.

Ian Stanley: Yeah. I mean, I just knew I was like, we got to talk about this. So I had written out my idea on what that breakup could look like. I think that’s an important piece is like doing some math on what something might look like if you do separate. And so once we said, and he was like, dude, me too. It was like a huge relief, you know, in general. And then I was like, I have some ideas on how we could do it. And here’s what I was thinking. Cause he had 33% of the company and I had 66 and I had run the company for like four years before we partnered up. So, and it was my face and my name. Um, and so it was creating that win-win where I was also just like overly generous with, what I was willing to give away. And I wanted it to feel like we both walked away legitimately happy, not like one of us won. You know, you go, I won the breakup. I won the split. It’s like, no, no, no, we both won. And so, I mean, I think that was a big part of it was having an actual laid out kind of plan. of what this could, and it was a loose plan, but it ended up being pretty much exactly that when we did split it off. But we ended up, we had a great night. We had like as much fun as we had had in a long time that night, just drinking and hanging out because we were like, Oh, this is so freeing. We don’t need to go hire more people and do all this stuff. Like this makes sense. Um, and we did it over a couple of months. We didn’t rush it. It wasn’t like, yo, we’re done. Let’s finish this. It was very much like, Hey, let’s take our time. And. make sure this is right. And the hardest part was honestly for the employees, making sure that they understood where things were and trying to get everybody into a good position. So like one, I kept on one sales guy, but like the other one, I placed him with a girl I know who he ended up, he’s been killing it and doing ridiculously well there. He’s better off than he was with us. That felt really good. Another guy were like, I will help, we’ll help you get a job stuff. We didn’t have to do, but like, Making sure that each person still had a place to go if they weren’t part of the future plan, I think was a bigger thing almost because we just feel, we felt responsible for them. Even though you learn that employees will leave you at the first drop of a hat if they, you know, certain ones, if they find a better deal and you’re like dragging along this limping critter and then they get some off and you’re like, wow, why did I do that? Why did I, you know, and it’s just, it is that you should be fast to fire and slow to hire, but I’ve known that for years and basically practiced fast to hire and slow to fire. So now the team it’s, is literally just people I love. And that’s one of the coolest things is like when you hire, here’s a hit. One of the biggest lessons was when we were scaling, cause we’re scaling, you know, and you hear all the, we’re scaling bro. No expenses are real when you’re scaling. Every little software, every mastermind, every course, everything that falls across your lap when you’re scaling is not an expense, bro. It’s an investment, dude. And then you realize one day you’re like, Jesus, we’re spending $25,000 a month on these things we’re not using that we thought were important. And so I think there’s a delusion in this entrepreneurial scaling mindset that’s a little bit in the same way you’re hiring people that aren’t actually quite right. We’ll find a place where we need we need a CFO for our company that has really basic finances. Let’s go pay somebody five grand a month for an hour of work a month because it feels cool to have a CFO. Like, what are we doing? So, yeah, I think the biggest thing was just coming at it from a place of genuinely wanting us to both feel like we won when the breakup was over.

Kira Hug: And then how did you approach setting the vision for the next phase of your business when you were able to make that pivot and go off on your own again?

Ian Stanley: I mean, I think it really just came down to running a profitable company, like a really high margin company that’s fun to run. Part of the, probably the biggest problem with having a business partner and Cam could listen to this and be absolutely fine with me saying this. was this sense of guilt that you have when somebody else is a partner where like, it would snow. And I’m like, I really want to go snowboarding this morning, but I want him to know that I’m doing, and I don’t want him to think I’m not working. So therefore I’m not going to go snowboard when it’s just drops out seven inches of powder. And it’s not because I’m actually going to do less. It’s because of this weird guilt feeling that you want to, you feel beholden to this person. And so you want to really like, No, you want them to know that you’re pushing it and that you’re working and you’re doing stuff. And by doing that, at least for me personally, I ended up working way less than when I have all my freedom and I go snowboard and I go travel and I go do all the things I want to do. So that was definitely a big part of it was the vision was just, I want to do whatever I want whenever I want, which is what I had done for most of my life. And so it became, let’s run a high margin, you know, fun business. And I made a rule, I’m just not going to hire anybody new unless it’s absolutely necessary. We’re going to grow with just these people that I like, and I’m not going to just hire based on some concept of, oh, we need more people or this or that. And then for me, it was really just what lets me do stand up and what lets me focus on what matters to me most, which is stand up. So if there’s something that counteracts, because part of that, too, is when you have a business partner, that’s a big owner of the business, you feel like they should be involved in each thing you do in some way, and you want them to know, even though he’s like, no, no, I don’t care about you doing stand-up or this or that, you have this little part of you that’s like, yeah, but just so you know, this isn’t taken away from the business. And now it’s like, it doesn’t matter. It’s me. It’s my company. I can do what I want. And as long as I have the freedom and time to do stand-up and make YouTube videos and focus on that, then That’s the main thing.

You know, I’ve thought about getting rid of the business at times because I really like it. I like what I do. I love the testimonials. I love helping people. I love people saying, Oh, I just quit. Literally yesterday I was going to call him. This guy’s like, I quit my job. And I’m like, Oh, how long did you have it? Thinking he was going to be like a couple months. He’s like five years. And I quit and I’m full time doing email copy now. And I’m like, that feels great. And I love that. And that’s why I want my products to exist and to do that. But then I’m like, what would it be like to wake up and only do YouTube videos and standup? But then you also realize, well, if you have to make money from the thing that you love more than anything, like what’s so weird about standup is like people like, what would you do for free? What job would you do if nobody paid you? I paid to do standup. Like, Imagine a job you love so much that you would actually pay to do that job. Not only would you do it for free, you would pay.

So it’s like, okay, well, what situation can I create where that’s the main thing that I get to do? And if I didn’t have the amount of money coming in I had, then I’d have to take weird gigs or like, have this pressure of this. I think there’s certain things where you should burn the boats, go all in, put you back against the wall, make it work. But I would also have to replace like, I don’t know, 50 grand a month. So to have suddenly have 50 grand a month coming in from stand up in YouTube is not the same as 10 or 20. And so what it does is it actually gives me this insane amount of freedom to be able to do stand up purely from a place of creation until it’s making 100 grand a month. then I can replace, you know, the other thing. So I think it’s really like, it’s given me a ton of gratitude for this business where I’m like, I see these other comics and the second that shows up, they’re walking up to the owner of the club to make sure they’re getting paid, you know, their $1,200 or whatever it is. And I’m like, I don’t even take my future pay. I don’t care. Take my head. I don’t care. Like, this is fine. I’m just happy to be here and doing this. So it’s given me like a whole different approach where I don’t have to worry about the thing that most people are worried about, which is paying their bills and taking random gigs and random places and, you know, trying to make ends meet while they’re trying to build their audience. And they can’t necessarily hire a video guy or, you know, whatever these things might be. So it’s, it’s really just creating a, an environment for myself where I get to do as much of the fun as possible.

Rob Marsh: So Ian, you mentioned the goal really is to create this high margin company that’s fun to run. I think a lot of people like have that as the goal. So in some ways, this question is maybe an outline for a course, a future course of some kind, but what is the Ian Stanley formula for creating a high margin company that is fun to run? You know, the, the three steps or the 10 steps, or, you know, what are the pieces that we need to put in place in order to create that?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, that’s a good question. So, you know, actually had a real big realization, like a month and a half ago that we were running pretty much all of our traffic, not all well, not for the last six months or so, but all of our traffic to 90 days to freedom, which is the $2,000 course that teaches people how to write emails for other people. The business model that I’ve followed for ages is basically run ads to an opt in page, hopefully near break, even on day zero, and then make all of the money on the back end through the email list. partially through an order responder and then through more or less daily emails, selling other stuff, either stuff I’ve already created or new stuff. Honestly, the biggest thing is whenever I create new products, we’re really profitable and we lost sight of that as we’re trying to like, when you’re trying to scale a thing and you’re like, Oh, this is our main product. Let’s not get distracted by creating new products. I like creating new products. It’s really easy for me. I have like 60 courses and every time I do one, we make a bunch of money and it’s all profit. And so when I lost sight of creating products is when we would have low emergence. Because even if it’s an affiliate offer I do or promoting something I’ve promoted before, when I create something new, it’s just going to do really well. And it’s all profit.

And so basically it’s, can I get leads that are going to break even within right now on Facebook and Instagram, it’s like seven days, seven to 10, and then just make money on the backend from all of that. But basically with the 2k offer, we were breaking even on the front, but we didn’t have a backend. Like I don’t have a $7,500 coaching program because I just don’t want to coach people on how to get clients. It doesn’t interest me at all. Um, So the biggest difference that’s happened now is we built this AI tool. Actually, this guy built an AI tool, a customer of mine kind of behind my back, more or less. He went and took all my emails, trained this AI model, built this thing, sent it to me. And I was like, bro, I hate AI. Like, I don’t want to do this. I’m not interested. But that was honestly what I said. And I was just like, I mean, if I hadn’t, if I didn’t do stand up or make money online, I’d have a fax machine and no cell phone. I’d have a landline and a fax machine and no email and I would just live my life. And so AI to me was in a way not really a threat to writing because I found it to be so bad that I didn’t think it was a threat at all. It was more like annoying and who knows what’s going to happen with it. I had fiddled with it a little, but I just didn’t really enjoy it. And so he actually had sent me this tool and for a few months I just, I like looked at it and I was like, I don’t, I just don’t care. And then we were at our annual meeting in January and I was like, let’s just pull it open and play with it and see if it’s something that we could use to make selling 90 days a lot easier. Because the biggest pain point people have is getting their first client. And he built this client outreach tool where you can put in like, You fill out like six fields, it takes like 30 seconds and it spits out an email that’s like a custom personality driven email to this company. And I put in this fake coffee company and it wrote this email and literally each of us in the room is like, holy, this is like more human than most humans.

Okay, let’s do something with this. And so over the next month and a half or so, we figured out how to get the tool actually ready to go. And then we launched it. And I’ve never had such good testimonials like ever, like people are literally just like, I’m a subscriber for life. I’m never not going to be paying for this. It’s so good. And so it’s like, okay, well, let’s reassess kind of where we’re at. And so literally over the past month and a half, we have restructured the entire company where the sole goal of our business is to get people into the AI subscription. And there are people who are anti-AI and that’s fine. That’s kind of one of the cool parts of the story. I was anti-AI like I hated it. And here I am like, and it’s not to say that it’s going to replace a really good copywriter’s writing. Like I like writing, I’m still going to write, but it gives me ideas and sentences and lines and things. But for a normal person, they can literally put in two sentences and it will write like a more personality driven human email than most people write. And so to help like a normal business owner or a person trying to get clients, I’m like, Oh, this really actually works.

And so we’ve restructured basically everything we’re doing now is if we’re getting front end leads, are they people who could use the AI? If yes, we’ll run that traffic. If no, we won’t run that traffic, even if it was profitable, even if it was attracting people in the money space or something, but they, they weren’t email driven around it. Like then we’re not going to pull them in. So now that’s what’s really cool is this company has never been sellable because, I mean, theoretically it’s sellable, but it’s worth very little compared to what it earns because it’s so dependent upon Ian Stanley and my face and my name. So now having a software tool, just that recurring already, you can see it growing. And that’s one of the coolest things I’ve seen yet is because I’ve had memberships before, but when it’s an AI tool or a software tool where people like either it’s a part of their business or it’s not. Growing that is basically the primary focus at this point. And so it’s honestly, it’s like an incredible amount of clarity is the biggest difference is we’ve had, we’ve tried, like we do traction. You guys know what traction is the. So we do like a quarterly meeting and an annual meeting. We have an implementer who, you know, takes us through then every few months we’re changing directions, right? Let’s try this. Oh, we’re going to run ads to a Facebook group and we’re going to make millions. Oh, it didn’t work. We’re going to, let’s pivot, let’s do this. And now it’s like, no, no, let’s just get people into the tool. And so your whole business, like there’s a company I consulted for called USCCA. They do 250 million a year. And all they do is put people into their membership. And they’ve done that for 12 years. And that’s why they’re so successful.

When I asked the CEO, I’m like, are you into crypto right now? And he’s like, no. I’m like, man, you should be. You’re so rich. What? Because I want to get more people into the membership. Like that’s when you, the richest people I know are the least distracted. They have one goal and for most of them, it’s either they’re building an email list or they’re building a membership. And so that’s the biggest thing now is just when you have that singular focus, everything becomes significantly easier because you’re not questioning what should we do next? Is this the right thing to be working on? You just go, does it grow this? Yes or no. And I tried that. I had like a newsletter, this almost passive income newsletter. I’m like, this is it. Like it’s too broad. It’s not the right thing. So really just that clarity is the biggest thing of just like what we’re focused on. And then if I ever did want to sell the company, having a software is significantly more valuable than any other, you know, membership type. Uh, and then it’s not just Ian Stanley, it’s email game changes. And then it’s actually like a sellable asset. So many people think they have a company they can sell and you’re like, no, you don’t. You have a personality.

Kira Hug: What advice would you pull from that that would be relevant to copywriters listening? I mean, you shared one around focus, but is there anything else we could pull from that, even if we’re not creating our own AI tool?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, I’d say, is it mainly copywriters who listen to this, like people who write for other people?

Kira Hug: Yeah.

Ian Stanley: So get really good at one thing and be more narrow than you think is probably what I would say. get really good at writing health emails or credit, you know, the credit space emails, or find an area where you don’t have to keep doing research again and again, and just get really, really good at understanding that market and that demographic. And then anytime you write for that space, it’s just significantly less work, but also like, are you working on the right things? Being a copywriter, there’s two skills. I compare it to being a doctor, like the best doctors, aren’t necessarily the ones who make the most money. The richest doctors are the ones who run the best business practice. They have the best practice. They may not be the best surgeon, but they run the best business. And with copywriters, there’s lots of good copywriters making $5,000 a month who are better writers than people making $10,000 or $15,000. But they forget that there’s also the business side of copywriting, which is getting clients, keeping clients, really getting clients. Because if you’re good, you should keep them.

That’s the other thing about writing email instead of writing VSLs and sales pages and stuff is that it’s recurring. Like if you’re writing emails for people, they’ve got to keep paying you every month because you’ve got to keep having emails every month. Whereas like I’ll charge 25 grand for a sales letter, which I rarely, rarely ever do anymore because I just, if I write my own and that’ll take me an hour and a half rather than, you know, a week for someone else, I’m going to make more than 25 grand. But it’s one-off, you know, you make it, And then it’s gone. And now you’ve got to get another client and another client. So I think from a focus perspective or from a skill perspective, focus on one skill at a time. So if you want to get better at copy, don’t try to get better at copy, get better at a specific element of it.

When I was at Crisis Education, I remember I was not very good at transitions. So I was really good at writing like sections. Like I could write a great lead. I could write a great little value piece or an argument. But the way they transitioned was pretty weak. It felt like what I call like hammer transitions where you’re just getting hit over the head by a hammer rather than like a sandpaper transition where it’s very smooth. And so for like two weeks, I would just work on transitions. And then once I’ve done that, I’m like, okay, I’m going to work on using more interesting words. And so for two weeks, I’m working on more interesting words. Or for a month, you’re going to work on just leads. And that’s going to be the most important thing always is going to be a lead in sales letters. So just spend a month on leads, then a month on writing really good closes. Don’t try to get better at everything at once. Get better at one thing. It’s like if you’re playing tennis, don’t try to improve your forehand and your backhand and your serve all at the same time. Just work on your forehand for a couple of weeks. then move to your back end, then work on your serve. Don’t try to get better at all the things, because you probably will get better at nothing. It’s just another, I guess, focus. Do less, better. That’s the main advice I give to most people when I consult now, is just do less, better. Because I was the number one doer of all things mediocrely. Just chasing so many different things in so many directions. Just get rid of everything that’s not actually essential. and then do that one thing really, really well.

Rob Marsh: So Ian, before we run out of time, I want to ask you about comedy. Obviously, there are at least those of us that know a lot of copywriters, there are a lot of copywriters who do stand up. Obviously, Kevin Rogers, you’ve done it. Justin Blackman. Amy does like there, there’s so many people that do it. And so clearly, there’s a connection between the creativity of writing, standing up in front of people exposing yourself a little bit. But just walk us through how you think about stand up. And then, you know, after you’ve shared all of those stand up secrets, tell us how to access your comedy special.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, so I think maybe the most relevant thing to everybody here would be, so I recorded my special November 4th and 5th, so did three shows in two days. And I always had this idea that you’ve got to be perfect on stage because that’s what goes out. And then you realize, oh no, you get to edit. And so you literally take these pieces. So I spent at least 50 hours Watching the special and and I don’t actually do the editing of like pressing the buttons and stuff but editing for story Essentially of what’s going where what you’re killing in stand-ups very similar to copy where? What’s weird is when you start doing stand-up you just you want people to laugh You know and you’re happy when they laugh then when you get good at it You literally have to kill jokes that get good laughs. So you’re you’re not Like there are parts of the special that I cut completely that I really liked that get good laughs, but it’s not quite as good as the other ones. It’s not quite as the same level. And does it fit the narrative? So does it, does, what is the sequence of events? It’s like with a sales page, you can write the best copy ever, but if it’s in the wrong order, it’s not going to convert very well. It’s the same with standup. You’ve got to present things in the right sequence. So I’m very controversial with my standup.

So just as a precursor here, if you are going to go by the special, uh, if you’re easily offended, please do not. You will have a terrible time. The special is called controversial. If that gives you any sort of ideas to what it’s like. So, um, what I’ve learned, I’ve got these few new bits I’m working on right now. I had some shows this weekend and they’re very edgy. Even for me, it’s pushing the boundaries. Now, 10 years ago, it wouldn’t have been. It’s not actually offensive. It’s just words that you’re not supposed to say anymore. And I’m talking about the show Love on the Spectrum and Down for Love, which is the show about autistic people and people with Down syndrome. And you can say a very different thing 30 minutes into a show than you can one minute into a show. And it’s the same with a sales page where once you’ve presented certain facts or stories or things, you can say very different things 15 minutes into a sales letter than you can at the first minute. And you have to get people in. You have to get people on your side. You have to win them over. And a special is different than on stage, because on stage, people aren’t going to just walk out of the show unless you really suck or you really offend people or something. They’re not going to leave. With a special, you have 10 to 15 minutes as the inflection point. That’s my own. And from everybody I’ve talked to, that’s what they say as well, is basically if they put a special on, they’re giving it 10 to 15 minutes to say, I’m going to keep watching or I’m done. If you make it past that 10 to 15 minutes, you’re going to make it to 60 or 70 minutes, however long the special is. So as I’m editing this thing, what I really, one of the biggest lessons I learned was I have never worked this hard on a sales letter in my entire life. Like not even close. I basically write something and then I go, here it is. And I don’t edit, I don’t go back. I don’t rewatch my own videos. And I was like, what if I had one VSL that I worked this hard on? It would probably make literally millions and millions of dollars on repeat, if I just gave that much of a to sit and watch it again and again and again.

And with comedy, you can’t go rerecord. So even if there’s bits, I’m like, I wish I’d said this, or this could be a little different. Or that’s not quite there. With a VSL or something, you can go rerecord that you can, you know, film it again or whatever. So if I was just like, man, if I put this effort into something, I can’t imagine how good it would be. Like that was one of the lessons was just like, wow, this is what it feels like to try. You know, and which is a very good feeling. But those first 10 to 15 minutes is such a crucial piece where I have like seven minutes of crowd work in the beginning. We’re part of it. I don’t want people to think it’s a crowd work special, but it’s so it hits so hard that it was like, I can’t not put this in here. And I had my parents watch it, which was a fun thing in itself. And I was like, what’d you guys think of the crowd work in the beginning? Should I get rid of that? And they’re like, no, that might’ve been the best part. Cause people love crowd work so much that no matter how good your jokes are, the, just complete spontaneity and like unplanned piece of crowd work, people just love it.

But those first 10 to 15, we cut this bit about me being English in America, where I talk about dating girls, because even though it’s funny, I kind of sound like a dick. If you aren’t on my side already, and it’s too big a risk in the first 10 or 15 minutes for people to go, this guy, I already look like a douchebag. I already look like I started a frat or, you know, like, and I talk about what I look like and make fun of myself, but you really need to win people over. And so even though it’s funny, there’s a chance that new people wouldn’t, would find me unlikable from that, to be honest. And so it gets cut. And that’s emotionally challenging to cut these bits that you like, that you think should be there, but you realize they don’t serve the narrative or they don’t serve the greater purpose of what it is. But it’s also, comedy is the same as sales. It’s a transfer of feelings. If I’m afraid of a bit, especially because I do really controversial stuff, if I’m afraid of that bit, the audience will be afraid of that bit. If I don’t give them permission to laugh, then they won’t laugh. If I just go, you know what, this thing crazy, and I’m going to say it, and I’m going to laugh probably too, because I actually think it’s funny, then they’re going to as well. And so there’s that permission and that transfer of energy and feelings. And a lot of stand-up is just working on how relaxed you are. within a bit and just committing, especially to the edgy stuff. You just got to commit. You go, this is, this is what I’m doing. I’m saying, so I know what I’m saying is what is not what I’m supposed to say. I understand that if I was at a dinner party as just a normal person, I’d probably be kicked out of that dinner party. It’d be a pretty boring dinner party, to be honest, if they kicked me out, but you’re pushing the boundaries. And so it’s, it’s your presentation of it. It’s the same as like any VSL or ad. I can give you the same exact, script and have you say it five different ways and one of those five is going to outperform the other by 30 to 50 percent simply by how I say it and the energy I say it with or the background.

The background for the special actually well this isn’t on video but I have this huge half American half British flag in the background and it looks like a Netflix special like the production quality is insanely high. If my background was just the black curtains from the club it would look like a YouTube special. And so it’s the same with ads. We have the best ad that we continue to run that I somehow can’t beat is me driving in my truck. And for some reason, people just like when I’m in my truck. I don’t know why. I’ll record a video in front of a fjord in Norway or in Amsterdam in canals or in Paris. And I’m like, this ad’s going to crush. Nope, they want me in my truck. But we recently did one where I’m on a hoverboard. And I’m drinking, I have a gallon of milk in my hand. And I do not acknowledge the gallon of milk at any point. So I’m just carrying a gallon of milk and I take a drink and I don’t say anything about it. And that ad is the only one now that’s truly competing with the truck ad. And it’s just that, it’s just being interesting. It’s just finding ways to do something that other people haven’t done and had, you know, just not be boring. uh, within the context of what you’re doing. And so it’s, uh, it’s an insane, if it’s also adding movements, you know, if you’re doing a bit about a T-Rex, well, act like a T-Rex and it’s going to add to that bit. So with ads, with comedy, with sales pages, literally, if you can be doing something in the video, that’s not related, you’re going to get more people to pay attention than if you just stand in front of a white wall and say words.

Kira Hug: I think it’s worth talking about if you’re comfortable talking about what it takes to get your own stand-up special. I mean that’s something that’s coveted and I’m sure there are many writers listening who would love to do that or something similar. What does it actually take to do that?

Ian Stanley: Money.

Kira Hug: I had a feeling it was money.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, I mean. What else? Beyond that, it’s also you got to be able to sell out. You got to be able to sell out a show. or preferably three to four. We ended up using about 80% from the third show, about 10% from the second show, or maybe 15% from the second show, and maybe 5% from the first show. And it’s not that that show wasn’t good or anything like that. It’s just the energy was so high on the third one. And I’d had two shows to dial in material. But I mean, I spent about $20,000 on it. And so the production company who did it, I mean, he did all the trailers for like Marvel movies and all these, you know, they’ve done stuff for Netflix and all that. And so I spent, I wanted to look incredible rather than like decent for like, but for like five or 10 grand, you can get a pretty good special film, but you do have to be able to sell out a room. So like I had to sell, you know, 500 tickets for three shows. So you have to have some sort of a, either an audience, I used ads. I mean, I have an audience in standup, but not all of them are here in Boise where you’re going to be able to do that. So the comedy club, I’ve developed a relationship with them. I said, Hey, I want to film my special here and book this weekend. So you booked the weekend. And then I ran Facebook ads to a, uh, 50% off for the ticket. Cause I don’t care how many, I don’t care what they pay. I’m not trying to make money. I made a few grand from the, from the weekend of shows. Um, but I, I just wanted a full room, you know, I just wanted it to be full.

So you got to be able to sell out the room, which again, which was, that was, that’s been, what’s really fun is to use direct response to grow this other thing. And so we recorded like 20 ads and then I, and they were all fine. And then honestly, energetically, I just got to the space and I sat on this cannon in front of the, um, Boise capital and just, was being a silly goose and my legs were dangling like a toddler in a high chair, like sitting on this cannon. And that ad got 95% of all the ad spend and, you know, probably 50% of the sales came from an ad to fill the special. And so, and then I hired the production company. I mean, and then you’ve got to work for years on your material and dial in what that, you know, what that special is going to be. And then you got to edit out of it. I mean, you could theoretically just throw it out as is, like just what the people experienced in the room.

But the difference is going to be just a speed, like how quick that special feels where you cut out any moment that’s not a nine. Even if it’s a seven, you go now, let’s just and even there’s one little bit in the special right now, there’s about two minutes that I think are a little slower than the rest, and I just didn’t quite have time to figure out how to cut the intro without losing the end of the joke, because the end of the joke’s very good. So if I release it again later in a different place, I may cut those two minutes, but that’s being super nitpicky over an hour and nine minutes of special. But yeah, you’ve got to work on the material, the sequence, your energy. You don’t just go and record a special if you’re not good at it at that point. I mean, actually, lots of people do. Netflix has many specials that are not very good. But yeah, I mean, I think that’s the biggest thing. Any questions you have from your perspective, I’d be happy to answer. That’s kind of my thoughts.

Rob Marsh: I’m curious what the goal here is, Ian. You know, when you spend 20 grand on a special and you’re selling ads to advertise it, you know, or to get it out there, so it’s even more spend there. I mean, just to break even, you’ve got to sell, you know, I think it’s $15, you know, to get in. If nobody uses a discount or whatever to buy it, you’ve got to sell 1,400 people, right, to break even and then even more with ads. So, and then also, you know, with something this controversial, it’s probably, you know, a lot of people aren’t looking to saying, Hey, we can put Ian in a, you know, in a TV pilot or, you know, that kind of thing. So what’s the goal here for you? Is it just expression, creative expression, having fun, or is there some bigger thing?

Ian Stanley: No, I’m going to make a ton of money from this. Okay. From standup is my belief. That sounded a little bit douchey, but what I, the purpose of the special is to build a fan base. So, um, I believe that I’m not chasing money in standup and in acting, but I know that once it’s there, it’ll be a lot and it’ll probably be more than business has ever been or anything. Standup’s weird. You either kind of make no money, you make enough to pay some bills or you make like tens of millions a year, you know, for the higher end guys. Right. So I do want to do TV shows. I do want to do movies. I think part of that’s going to be that I have to write my own.

And that’s the novel I’m working on is essentially a screenplay that I’ve turned into novel format, which I won’t say what it is because it’s good enough. It’s one of the only ideas I’ve had where I go, this is a very stealable, good idea. I wonder about that with the TV pilot stuff, but you see like Shane Gillis, he’s got his own coming out now and he said all the most offensive things possible. And so I think, I think culture has shifted back where people are kind of like, whatever, this is ridiculous to cancel people for words. And so I think it’s shifted. I mean, there are things that people are always going to be offended by. But also if you do watch the special, you’ll see there’s no malice like that’s my my barometer for myself is. Is this joke malicious? Am I trying to be mean to a group of people like I have? like for trans jokes. And one of the waitresses at the club is trans and she loves it. Literally came out after the special was like, where is this going to go? I can’t wait to watch. Like, this is so cool. And so to me, that shows this is jokes. You understand that I’m messing around. There’s no malicious intent here. And that’s super important to me because I’m not trying to be mean. There’s a difference. I think there’s certain comics who hear talk about a topic and you can feel like an undertone of actual maliciousness towards that group of people. That’s not my goal. But so the goal, the goal with the special is to build a fan base, like a, so that I can do a tour and sell out the tour without having to work my ass off at selling tickets so that I can go places, do standup.

So the first thing would be to be able to go and sell out comedy clubs across America and sell out clubs. Then in a year or two, be able to do theaters and then in, you know, three, four years, be able to do arenas and stadiums and that type of thing. And so that is the goal is to do this as the only thing that I do. And YouTube, I love making sketches and YouTube videos and stuff. And so I think with a lot of what I’ve learned in marketing and stuff, I can apply that to the online realm in a way that others can’t necessarily, and invest in production and things. And so the goal here is really just, if I can break even on this special, great. But ultimately, after the release on Moment, which is where it’s at now, which is a paid thing, there’ll be a second release in a few months somewhere else. And I don’t know exactly how that’s going to go. But the goal is, I don’t care if it’s free and it’s on YouTube and I don’t make a dime, but a million people watch it and I get 100,000 true fans who are willing to go to any show in their city. That’s the goal, because the money comes from touring and then other stuff.

The other difference is I have a merch company that I started called Feed the Wolf, where we have our rated like comedy merch. So I won’t say the the merchandise on there. If you want to go to Feed the Wolf dot com, you can see it. But the words on the shirts and stuff are not exactly appropriate for this podcast. But we have mugs and t-shirts and things. And really, the way that the biggest YouTubers make their money is from their own businesses that they own. And so my goal is, if I can spend money to grow the channels and things, whether it’s through production or whatever it is for the videos, and then I can make that back through people buying merch, on my site, then I can at least break even and just grow and reinvest into growth. So the goal is absolutely just a fan base of people that are genuine, true fans. And then the money will follow. I know how to monetize stuff. It’s just about growing an audience of people who are like truly want to see everything you do.

Rob Marsh: I suppose if Jimmy Carr can land a TV show, there’s a space for anybody who does that brand of comedy to land a TV show.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, and it’s very, my jokes are very, very different than his brand is very much jokes. Mine’s, you know, storytelling and different stuff, but there’s only two comics in America who’ve made it that are English really. And that’s Ricky Gervais is probably my favorite comic. It’d be more, my stuff’s more similar to that. But Ricky and Jimmy have both made it here, which is really interesting because most English and Scottish, well, Scottish comics can’t make it in America because English people can’t understand, or American people can’t understand. Nobody can understand them. Yeah. There are even times that I’m like, okay, can you, what are you, what are you saying? Yeah. So it’s a weird thing because they don’t really make it and being half English and half American, it’ll be, I’m really interested to see how it translates for me as like building a fan base in England. And in America, and then I’ll end up with a big Australian fan base just because they think I’m one of them. So that’ll be interesting to see.

But yeah, I think worrying about, it’s a really fine line to start cutting your own jokes, because they might be too offensive. And I actually went and saw Ricky Gervais in Norway a month before I recorded my special. And he had this bit. We had a bunch that’s just like so far. It’s the Armageddon special. And it was so good. And my girlfriend, I left and I had this bit that I was probably not going to do in the special. And then we both went, if Ricky said that bit, we would have gone. That’s so funny. And that’s genius that he did that. And I think if there’s one, if you start to draw a line somewhere, then you, you just start moving that line to be like, Oh, I don’t want to offend. You just got to say whatever you want. And if it goes too far, then deal with it. I just think if you start to self-censor, you lose the best parts of yourself.

Kira Hug: Well, I think what you said originally is most important here, just pulling the audience in initially in the first 10, 15 minutes so they like you. And then you can take them wherever you want to take them to whatever jokes you want to present because they’re on your side.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, if you open up with your absolute most insane bit, they might just not be ready for it. And they’re like, okay, whoa. Can you ease us in?

Kira Hug: Let’s do a little bit of foreplay for this. I need a drink before this starts.

Ian Stanley: Yeah, exactly.

Kira Hug: All right. Well, where can we find your special? If we want to check out your special, where should we go?

Ian Stanley: Yeah, go to moment.co slash Ian Stanley. And it’s there and you can use the code Stanley for $5 off since you’re a copywriter. Um, and then, uh, feed the wolf.com has the merge. Um, and then if it does, if you’re past, there’s like a 30 day viewing window. So I don’t know when this will come out, but if it’s not there, just, uh, go to my Instagram at becoming in Stanley and you’ll find out when I released the next one.

Rob Marsh: And I think if, if people hit your, your Instagram, but get a sense of what the jokes are like, and whether they’re a fit for actually purchasing the special or not. Might be a good place to start.

Ian Stanley: Exactly. And then if you want to just get on my email list and you try out the AI tool, that’s emailgamechanges.com. And then you can see if I’m actually good at email and test out the tool. There’s a right now $1 trial, but it might be a free trial by the time you get there, Adam.

Rob Marsh: Excellent. Thanks.

Kira Hug: Thanks, Ian. Thank you. I’m excited to see where everything goes for you with your show and maybe Netflix will pick it up.

Ian Stanley: Maybe. We’ll see. We’ll see. It’ll be someday. Yeah. If it’s not this year, next.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Ian Stanley. I want to add just a bit more color to a couple of the ideas that we talked about with Ian. Ian talked in depth about sales training, the training that he provided for his team. And I think there’s a lot to be taken away from what Ian was sharing, even if you are the only person doing sales for your business. And for most of us as copywriters, that’s the way that our businesses are. We are the salesperson, we’re the writer, we are the support team. So what Ian shared that he was telling his team is also applicable to us as individuals. Number one, you’ve got to believe in yourself. You’ve got to believe in the product that you’re selling and your ability to deliver. And as you talk with your clients, just to get them to the point where they can see you are confident in delivering what it is that you’re selling. I love that Ian focused on no high pressure tactics or the fake sales tactics, that he really wants people leaving a sales call feeling good. We should also be feeling the same way. There’s no reason to push somebody to make a decision on a call, a decision that they’re not ready to make. And it’s always a good reminder that you’re not selling the result.

You’re selling freedom. You’re figuring out the thing that your prospect wants and you’re focusing on that. And I know we’ve talked about this a lot on the podcast, but that looks like this on a sales call. Your client is asking you for something, usually a deliverable like a website or a sales page or an email sequence. But what you’re really delivering isn’t a web page or a sales page or an email sequence. It’s the thing underneath the thing, the thing that a web page gets you or the thing that a sales page gets you. And oftentimes that’s going to be authority, believability, credibility. Oftentimes it’s going to be sales and revenue.

Sometimes it’s going to be something like retention and being able to bring people back for a second or a third purchase. It’s those things that you’re really selling. So those are the things that you want to focus on in the sales call. Not necessarily the web page, not necessarily the sales page or whatever, but it’s the thing underneath the thing. And the faster, the better that we can understand what our clients are looking for, the better we are going to be on our own sales calls. I also love the “ask your wife” objection or “ask my partner” objection. We talked a bit about that. Obviously, A traditional sales team will push you to make a decision on a call, but we’ve always taught copywriters that that’s actually a good thing when somebody says, Hey, I want to talk this over with my partner because if the partner supports the decision, they often become a second part of your sales team. They’re basically encouraging the person you’ve been talking to. to invest in themselves or to do what they believe is going to be best for their business. And so rather than pushing somebody who wants to talk it over with a partner to make a decision now, I think it’s usually going to be better to say, go ahead, have that discussion.

Here are all the things that you can share with your partner about why you’re making this decision or why you think this is a good idea for your business and come back and let me know. And like I said, oftentimes they will become a backup sales team for you. Another thing that we chatted about that I think is worth drawing a line under is this idea of knowing whether to push through or quit. Specifically, we’re talking about this as we talked about the end of this partnership. But this happens a lot in our business. We have a product that maybe doesn’t sell as well or a service that we’re getting tired of providing. And oftentimes, understanding what the end goal is and whether or not you’re climbing a mountain that you want to get to the top of or not is a really good framework for helping you decide, is this where I want to be spending my time?

This reminds me of our interview with Kieran Drew just a few weeks ago, where he had invested years into his dental career and then understands he needs to make a switch. And at some point, you’ve got to stop investing in the thing that no longer serves you, get off of that ladder and start climbing up a different mountain, a different ladder, or have a different goal. Might be worth going back and listening to that Kieran Drew episode if this is the kind of thing that you’re dealing with in your own life or business.

And then finally, we talked a lot about how to build that high margin company. Ian walked through some of the specifics and I just want to emphasize some of this because oftentimes as copywriters in our own businesses, we do not do these things. Most copywriters do not run ads. to an opt-in for their products or services. Obviously, this is something we will usually do with training or physical products, but it can also be done for services. Oftentimes, copywriters aren’t thinking about sales on the back end. As you sell that first service, how does that turn into another sale later down the line. Again, this is something that we tend to do with webinars or physical products, training, that kind of stuff when we sell it, but don’t necessarily think about it as much when we’re selling services and we’re talking about actually providing content and copy for our clients. So it might be worth just thinking, you know, what would my business look like if I did run some ads to sell my services or if I did have a backend product or a second service that I can add on after I sell that first service in order to become more high revenue in my business. Definitely worth thinking about as you build your business as well.

We want to thank Ian Stanley for joining us to talk about creating a high margin company that is fun to run. Also talking about email and comedy and so much more. And as he said at the end of our discussion, you can find him on Instagram at Becoming Ian Stanley. He also mentioned a couple of websites where you can find his trainings. You might want to check that out. If you decide to check out his comedy special, be warned, Ian is not joking when he said his comedy is pretty offensive. His show is something to watch without the kids in the room. And in some cases, you may not even want your partner to be in the room. So you’ve been warned, but feel free to check that out if that’s of interest to you. If you’ve enjoyed this interview, please share it with a friend or associate who might also enjoy or learn from it. You can always leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts. We always appreciate those.

We’ve talked a lot about building your authority and finding clients on LinkedIn on this podcast. But I don’t think we’ve ever spoken with anyone who built a six-figure copywriting business entirely on that platform—without a website or any other social media presence. On the 391st episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, we spoke with Alefiya Khoraki who did exactly that. And if you’re looking for clients on LinkedIn, you’re definitely going to want to listen to this episode. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Sell Like Crazy by Sabri Suby The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: After recording almost 400 episodes of this podcast—the official number 400 will be released in about 9 weeks and that doesn’t include several unnumbered bonus episodes we’ve recorded—but with that many interviews under out belts, it gets pretty easy to identify trends and shifts in the copywriting world based on what copywriters tell us about how they find clients, the services they offer and the struggles they go through. And one of the trends we’ve heard about over and overa again in the past year or more is how effective LinkedIn is for finding clients.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter Alefiya Khoraki. She’s built a six figure business in less than a year, primarily by posting content on Linkedin and commenting on other content there. That’s pretty good for someone who got her start trying to raise $800 for a project while she was in school. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been wondering how to use AI in your copywriting or content writing business, I’ve got something for you. A couple months ago i shared the way I use AI tools like Claude and ChatGPT to write bullets, headlines and subheads with the participants of a copywriting summit. It’s a simple google document with the exact prompt I use to write hundreds of great headlines and bullets in seconds. Plus instructions on how to go back and forth with the AI model you’re using to get even better results. You can even add a short ten-ish minute video training where I show you how i use it. If you’re new to writing with A.I., this is a great way to get started. And if you’ve been using A.I. for awhile, this training may open your eyes to what’s possible with a megaprompt. The document is free. And you can get it at thecopywriterclub.com/aiwriter.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Alefiya.

Kira Hug: Let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Alefiya Khoraki: So it started in a very weird way. You probably hear this a lot from copywriters. Back in COVID, I started my bakery business because I was still in university and for the final year, we had a very special ceremony for which I needed to raise 800 USD. And I was like, OK, let’s try something. So every day I was trying new things. Let’s try selling cottage cheese one day. Let’s try selling this. Let’s try selling that. And then I ended up starting my own bakery because I was working. I was studying in the morning, so I had time for myself in the evenings. And then I started running Facebook ads for that. And I was like, oh wow, I really enjoy this part. 

I didn’t even know what copywriting is. I didn’t even know what A-B testing is. Because for my bakery business, that was the first time I downloaded the Instagram app. So I was very far off from the whole online marketing world. And then a lady was introduced to our community and she hosted a workshop. And there, she introduced me to Boss Babe. Boss Babe is Natalie Ellis and Danielle Canty. And they were doing a summit with Tony Robbins, Young Guys EOC, and all that. And then at that time, to learn all these marketing skills for my bakery business. And I was studying Sabri Suby’s book, Sell Like Crazy, and I was like, I really enjoy this. But I didn’t have the courage to quit my bakery business because people started calling me the brownie queen of Kampala. This was back in Africa. So I was doing all that, and I was really enjoying it. And then I had to travel to Pakistan for six months to my grandparents’ place. And I was like, oh, shucks. OK, now my pocket money’s stopped, and I need to do something. So what I did is I pitched, like, 50 bakery owners that, hey, let me be your bakery consultant, and let me help you grow your business. Nobody replied. And then I was like, OK, I’ve got to do something in this marketing thing. And somehow I came across Alex Cattoni’s YouTube channel. And I was like, OK, this is something called copywriting. And if I want to pursue marketing and I have to write for that, OK, maybe I was writing my Facebook ads. So how hard can this be? And that’s how I started writing on LinkedIn. And yeah, I became a LinkedIn ghostwriter. And that’s about it. And then things kept happening.

Rob Marsh: We’ll get to the “things kept happening” part in a second. I’m curious…  pitching a ton of potential clients, no responses, what did that pitch look like? And as those responses didn’t come in, did you make changes to your pitch or how did you adjust your approach?

Alefiya Khoraki: I don’t even remember. I didn’t even know it was called a pitch. It was sending random emails from my Gmail account. I don’t even know if I was searching the right email addresses and probably going to support. I didn’t even know there are tools built for scrapping email addresses. I’m a rookie who doesn’t have any idea about this whole online marketing world. And of course, many things change after that. Like currently, my biggest source of client acquisition is Pitching and LinkedIn, obviously. But I don’t even remember what those pitches were. Probably just sharing that, OK, I made this much money from my bakery business. And I was supposedly called. It was bullshit. So that’s what the responses I got.

Kira Hug: OK, do you have your baking business anymore? Or is it shut down? Or you ended it?

Alefiya Khoraki: It is shut down. I was doing this in Uganda where I had a whole monopoly for the bakery business. I was charging $200 for a brownie tray and my parents were like “you ripping people off.” I was like okay. My brother is a photographer so I had elite photography and very shitty packaging but the photography did the job. I had a nice Instagram page. I was looting people left, right, center. And I had like $300 cakes, $200 cakes. There’s no chance I can charge that much money in India now that I’m married and living in India. So that’s why I chose not to continue my bakery business here.

Kira Hug: Got it. OK, well, are there any other lessons from the bakery business that you have pulled into your copywriting and marketing business?

Alefiya Khoraki: Everything. Customer care, how to handle crises. I remember when I was charging this much money and then a lady called and said, “hey, I think you’re just too overrated.” And I could get these cookies for free or for cheaper from this XYZ bakery. And then I was like, OK, let me just return you and replace you with more cookies or I can just refund your money. And then she came in and she said, I’ve raised these complaints to many, many places, but I’ve never heard a response back. And that’s the same thing I carry back to my copywriting business. If a client is not satisfied, I will do everything in my control to make that client satisfied. If it calls for more free work, I’ll do that because it’s like my first year, right? I can afford to do that. If it calls for doing more… I remember one of my early clients said she was not happy with the tone of voice. Immediately I DM Justin Blackman to help me with this. I’m really terrified, send me a course. Let me do this in two days. I did that. I was like I told this client that I’m new and I just took this course, so let me just cover this and you won’t have a tone of voice complaint ever. So that’s the thing. I know many small entrepreneur lessons and people ask me how I’ve picked up so fast. It’s because I had this bakery business background of running an actual business.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, which helps for sure, right? So you grew pretty fast as you launched your business. If I’m not mistaken, you were having six and seven thousand dollar months in the first six months of your copywriting business. So going from bakery business to copywriter, how did you make that happen?

Alefiya Khoraki: So I was in Pakistan for six months, and that was the transition period where I was figuring out, OK, what do I want to do? Then I came to India, where I am today. Now my husband lives in India. And at that time, I forgot about the business. All the ambition went down the drain. It was the honeymoon period. And then my husband traveled to Saudi Arabia for 40 days. And I had nothing to do because I don’t have any family here. And I had to do something. I wanted to do something. So that’s when I started binging all the other copywriting stuff, and started writing on LinkedIn every single day. And I landed my first client for $30 within like three days. And then I started improvising and doing small things. But because I wrote those Facebook ads, I had the idea of copy and how to do A-B testing. I still remember when I used to launch those two campaigns, one campaign was how I catered men. I was targeting men and selling like, okay, treat your pregnant wives with a box of brownies and attracted lots of men from there. So at that time, I was not sure what I was doing, but when I find a winner from the campaign, what does it feel like? So I had those certain elements which I was bringing in and I was not doing copywriting per se, like when I started on LinkedIn. 

At that time the whole LinkedIn vibe was ghostwriting, ghostwriting, ghostwriting. So I just googled “what is ghostwriting?” and then I gobbled all that I could on LinkedIn and started offering ghostwriting services. So the thing which helped us scale, and then two months later I asked my husband to quit the family business and join us. So then we both combined. And there are certain challenges. We are not Prerna and Mayank. So there are certain challenges. And we had to figure a few things out—how do we work as husband and wife in the business? Which took us a year. And now we are good. But last year we did this. And the things which helped us keep getting clients on repeat was they were making good money from all the sales posts and case study posts we put out there.

Kira Hug: OK, so let’s back up a little bit. And I just need the timeline in my head. I know you made this shift. Would you say 2023 was your first year as a copywriter in business, or was it 2022?

Alefiya Khoraki: 2023 in June. And I was still in my graduation year, so I only worked for four or five months in 2023, because then exams came in, and final exams came in. And then I was like, OK, and now my exams are there. I can’t work on more projects.

Kira Hug: OK. Yeah, and I definitely want to touch on you working in combination with your husband, which is definitely interesting, tricky, and all those things, and also, I’m sure, magical and great. But first, let’s talk more about LinkedIn, because it sounds like you’ve really grown using LinkedIn. So I guess I’m wondering how you even decided, I’m going to go all in on LinkedIn. Were you experimenting with different social media platforms at first? Or was it just you chose that one and it took off because you were consistent?

Alefiya Khoraki: No, I was experimenting, of course. I have crappy design skills. So Instagram was off the charts. TikTok is banned in India. I tried Twitter when my whole family was prepping for my wedding. Choosing the dresses and all and that at that time I was busy figuring it out Twitter posting like 10 tweets a day and It didn’t just pick up. I had no traction and then the friend I have who has been constant with me for entire my bakery business and he just suggested that LinkedIn is a writer’s platform. You don’t need to have very good graphics and all that and you don’t need canvas skills. I was like, okay yeah, no canvas skills. I’ll do this. And then I started writing on LinkedIn. And yeah, it picked up. Within 30 days, I had people messaging me that they’re following me, my advice, more than they’re following Alex. I mean, some people are just nice, but then they started saying these things. And then I was like, okay. But at that time, the mistake I made was I had no idea what I was just writing about. So I started with what I started with is writing. I had a 30-day cold email challenge because I was fitting people. So I was just sharing, day one, do this tip. Day two, that’s how I started on LinkedIn. And I landed a cold email client who asked me to run some cold email campaigns for their marketing, their software development agency.

Kira Hug: OK, so just to dig in a bit more, then, what was working on LinkedIn? Again, other than you were showing up consistently, which I think is what most of us miss, is we just don’t do it frequently enough. We try it, and then we’re like, eh, it didn’t work. But were you tagging people? Were you sharing a specific style of post that started to pay off over time and attract clients?

Alefiya Khoraki: So there is a lot of advice around LinkedIn. And there’s a very simple formula, like write your about section as if you’re writing a landing page with a very strong headline, very strong conversion copy principles. And then just have a catalytic link in your feature section. This is like the basics when you’re starting. This is how I started out. And then you have like the biggest mistake I see everyone making on LinkedIn is not focusing a lot on formatting. And I know when we are writing in the flow and we are writing, it’s different from other writing platforms. Like how you write a page, how you write emails, you have to format your posts because that’s how it pushes more people towards your post. That’s how it picks up. However, like if you put long sentences, however good the copy, it does pick up. But then you have to build a very strong, engaged audience for it to pick up. So of course, formatting matters. And then the other thing which matters is being active, which I didn’t know about in the first one month or two months. And then someone shared that, OK, you have to treat LinkedIn like a job if you don’t have any other job right now, which I didn’t at that time. And do 50 comments a day and DM 10, 15 people every day and send 10, 15 connections, which is a lot to do. And it’s not sustainable. But at that time, I didn’t have anything. I was like, OK, they’re doing this. I’ll double that or triple that. And my husband wasn’t there, so I had nothing to do. So the whole day after my university classes finished, all I was doing was LinkedIn. DMing people, messaging people, writing comments. And when they read my comments, and then I brought the premium LinkedIn. When they showed up in my profile, I went in and said, hey, I noticed that you dropped by my profile, anything that caught your eye? Or, hey, I checked you dropped by my profile, what led you here? And some of them said, a future project. Or someone said, I like your comment. And then, or someone said that, I write how you put up your opinions. And that’s how that led conversations. And yeah, landed  the first 10 projects came from there.

Rob Marsh: And how have you continued to use LinkedIn? Do you still, so you said it wasn’t sustainable to do, you know, three times more work than the recommendation. And for most of us, that recommendation of a post every day and 50 comments, that even is difficult to sustain. So while we’re talking about LinkedIn, how are you using it today?

Alefiya Khoraki: I have someone who helps me a little, who helps me manage it because now it’s picked up so much that I can’t handle it. So that person helps me. Okay, these are the comments that you need to pay attention to. This is the person who’s checking your profile and maybe you need to lead this conversation forward. Now, these are the people in your DMs who might feel like future clients. And what most people fail to do is what I leveraged it. I knew I couldn’t be on more than one platform. It was just not possible. But I knew that not all my ideal clients are hanging around on LinkedIn. So I was active like kind of everywhere I could be and then leading all of them towards LinkedIn. Like if I’m reaching out to someone who is very active on, on Instagram and they’re my ideal client, it didn’t stop me from reaching out if I was not on Instagram. I started the conversation there or I pitched them and then drove, drove them towards LinkedIn. And I attract like everyone, even in the, in the cooperating circles, my ideal clients, my peers, every, I was driving everyone towards LinkedIn. and showing that, okay, I’m writing on LinkedIn, I’m an authority on LinkedIn. So many people are like, oh yeah, you’re not anywhere else and you’re on a scam because you’re so active on LinkedIn. Okay, you have these posts, you have people commenting on. So you can’t be a scam, who’s pitching us? Even though it was from a non-business email at that time when I was pitching people. This is like early 2020. I’m talking about June, July, August, September, 2023. Okay.

Rob Marsh: And so today, do you still post every day?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, I post every day. Monday to Friday, sometimes Saturday, Sunday as well.

Rob Marsh: Okay.

Alefiya Khoraki: And how often? I use past posts as well right now. Like when I see winner posts, I post them every day. They go at 5.45 Indian time every single day. I try and at least respond to 15 comments by myself. I at least try and start two conversations every day, which is like very little from what the LinkedIn influencers recommend. But now that I’ve built relationships and the thing which I did was really early on in my business, like in early 2024. So I’ve never had a client drop, unless it was August last year, where we had taken a three month break because of my exams. And then I came in and then I have another story to share about going for a wrong program and that time in August and then I was like putting all this energy in the wrong program which was not which well I was not trusting myself and my client acquisition abilities and then that wrong program it was like a 40-day period but I was still getting clients from LinkedIn but I was not getting clients from the other client acquisition method which was shared in that program And then, so what I did in early, so December was the other time I had a client drawn, which was like 25 days. And my biggest quality which, between my husband and I, is I can land, if you give me a deadline, in 24 hours I can land a client. And I can do something, I can go on Facebook. I’ve done that in the past. And these 25 days, tried every single thing. Instagram, yes. LinkedIn, yes. Fast clients, yes. Nothing was happening, it’s just, I was like, OK, maybe I have to reconsider the whole copywriting thing. Will I ever get a client? I don’t know. And that’s when I pitched the biggest LinkedIn influencer. And LinkedIn has this whole thing where it has a favicon rating where they rate people. So you can say top one, top two, and then it’s like top UK. And then it has like overall the whole LinkedIn thing. So she’s the number one female creator on LinkedIn. according to those Faircom ratings. And she shared in her post that her current click-through rate for her launch was 6%. And then I had a case study where my click-through rate were like 49% or something like that. And then I pitched her, and I shared that screenshot in that pitch that, hey, I saw this, and this is something that I’ve been able to do in the past. And looking at your audience, I easily think that this is possible. And I think within six hours she’s like, let’s talk, let’s do this. And the thing I did was because I knew that how influential her name can be and how it will help me grow my confidence. So I was like, okay, you don’t pay me anything until we finish the project. So if this is successful, if we hit 150K with the launch, then only you pay me. We did. and then I could use her name to get more projects which wasn’t necessary but you know that sometimes there’s an internal confidence shift and a major shift internal confidence shift happened when I was in CSP as well so you know just being able to talk to Joy in person also made that okay now I’m between the elites and now I get to think like the elites So that’s the internal confidence shift also that happened that maybe led me to pitching this big influencer.

Kira Hug: Okay, so what could someone listening do to get that type of mindset shift? today because, I mean, the way you’re talking about pitching this influencer, you came in confident and with dropping a screenshot and saying, I feel confident I can increase your click-through rate. And I love that. It clearly worked. But I know so many copywriters would struggle with that level of confidence in their mindset and would probably never even do that. So what would you recommend they do? to channel that energy you’ve got, that mindset?

Alefiya Khoraki: I’ll tell you the truth. So the thing is, it doesn’t always work. I pitched a huge another name, top five Yahoo coaches. You know, you have those listings. It’s really nice. And even that was performance basis. But it didn’t work. But what happened is, I shared that sales pitch with a few potential clients, and they loved it so much, I got projects based on that. So if you have the rents and all sorted, and if you’re not really, really struggling financially, like what’s the worst that can happen? You don’t end up getting paid for two to three works of projects. Because this is like talking about my first year in business. Like if I would be three, four years in, I wouldn’t do all this. But since it was my first year, I needed those big names I could associate myself with. I said, OK, what’s the worst that can happen? And even after that project, maybe the client twisted a few things and maybe we didn’t, we did not, um, I did not have access to her data, which we could control at that time. And which was something I learned along the way that, okay, if I’m doing a performance basis, I should have access to all their data. And that’s how I went in, in the next project that, okay, I will have access to all your data. I will monitor this, I will do this. And then you just learn and there’s nothing to lose. So this pitch to this LinkedIn influencer, I literally wrote an invite I had written a pitch three months ago, which I never sent. And I said, OK, what’s the worst that can happen? Let me just send it. Maybe she’ll ignore it. Maybe she’ll reply. Whatever happens, happens. So there’s really nothing to lose when you think, like, the mindset you’re talking about. If they say yes, it’s a project. And then you work the hell off on that project. What I’ve even done is I’ve invested my money into the project as well, maybe getting another really successful copywriter and asking them, OK, can you run through the strategy? Can you run through the copy? And although I’m not getting paid for it, I’m still investing money, which even after maybe one failed project, it will lead to ROI in one. It’s just a hustle game. So you have to keep trying until you land a big fish. And then just this is how I don’t know how you believe that or not. One big client leads to 10 others because they have this huge network, huge influence. And maybe one small client doesn’t lead to many other clients. So it’s like you just have to amp up your game. That’s what I learned through this experience.

Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about mindset, let’s also talk about how you priced the work that you did, because a lot of people starting out, especially in Asia, where you live, tend to start out charging very low prices, sometimes pennies per word, sometimes ridiculously low prices that they really shouldn’t even be considering. there’s a mindset when you’re starting out, you have to charge less. You didn’t really do that or you quickly ramped up your pricing. Talk a little bit about that and the thinking around that. How did you justify that to yourself as you started to build your business?

Alefiya Khoraki: Okay. I’ll be very honest. I did the same. So my goal was, okay, I was earning X, Y, Z in the bakery business. And I was like, okay, how can I earn the similar thing in this new business? And it turns out, okay, $10 email, fine. Okay, that’s so much money. I just get $10 fighting a normal email. That’s good. Until you get into circles where people are talking about $500 for email. And then that’s where your business, your mindset shifts. So there’s an interesting story. When I started the business, I reached out to Iman Ismail to hire me. And then she was like, your copy game is not still there. This is like, very mid just like the first month of starting the business. And then I was like, I’ll reach out to you a year later and you’ll see where I am. So let me just put in everything I can so I can reach there. So at that time, I saw like what Eman charges. And then I was like, okay, who are the Asians who are crushing it currently? And Prerna came up, Esai came up, and Samar came up. And then I looked at their charges and they were charging a lot. Then I was like, okay, why can’t I? 

Then I looked at their work. Okay, okay. Now, if I have to amp up my work game, let me invest in it. And we invested a lot. Last year, I don’t think we’ve saved anything in the business. All what we earned went back into investing. Everything. We made some mistakes. Some programs were not worth it. But most of it was. I’ve heard about like the think tank and CSP and programs like this what it does even if it does not like if even if you’re not getting the coaching coaching like the the knowledge part what happens is just getting into a room with Kira or Joel or people like that it just makes you feel like okay now you’re you’re a big person like you’re you’re someone who as an authority you’re someone who is known in those circles Maybe the coach doesn’t see you that way, but it’s just internally, it shifts many things. Like, okay, now I can be friends with this influential person. I can be friends with this one. Now this person knows my name. Now this person is seeking out to you. I’m speaking with this person. 

So that just builds network, and that’s what helped me shift my mindset around pricing. Okay, if these other influential people who I admire, they can do so. So let me do, and then it’s, I was increasing price after every project, very slowly. So I started LinkedIn with $35 per post. Then it went to 45, then 55, then 75. The highest it went to was $150 per post. And then similar with emails. It started with like $25 per email, coming to 250 right now.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, it seems an observation is what, some of the many things you’ve done well is relationships. boldly reaching out to people, building those relationships, and having the drive and the confidence to reach out and say, Okay, even if you’re not ready for me now, or you don’t think I’m good enough now, I’m going to come back and I will be good enough and just believing in yourself to know that you’ll circle back and they will want you. I love that on LinkedIn, You reach out to people who have checked out your profile. I don’t know if you do that, Rob. I’ve never done that. And I check out who’s checking out my profile all the time. And so now I think I might reach out to them and ask them your questions. What was the question you asked? Like, hey, do you see anything you like?

Rob Marsh: This is actually one of the ideas that we put in our Find Clients Now report that we’ve made free for everybody, is to use that check out, people checking you out. And when you’re checking each other out a couple of times, it’s a little bit like dating, right? It’s like, wait a second, that guy’s making eyes at me. Maybe we should be friends and start that relationship.

Kira Hug: Yeah, they’re looking at me. But I love that approach because it’s a great way to engage And they’re mostly going to respond. So I’m going to start doing that. Before we move away from LinkedIn, because I would just love to talk about the content you’re posting. You’re posting daily. How do you think about content? What advice do you have for all of us if we want to post more frequently, based off what’s worked for you or even what’s working today on LinkedIn?

Alefiya Khoraki: So as Jo says, everything is content, right? So we are tracking everything, all client results. And I was very open about everything going on in my business. If a client emailed me saying, this is the part I don’t like about your project, I would put that on there. And hardly anyone does that because everyone’s very busy showing off the results. And what helped that is whenever a client that a potential client who wanted to work with me reached out and said, you’re genuine. I know that all the results you’re posting up are not fake because you posted this thing. So one thing is sharing your story and all the ups and downs, where you’ve traveled, where you’ve been from, your I’m not an overshare. I would not share about my personal life or anything about my family or all this. Some people do that. And their whole entire content strategy is based off their personality, which can work. It very well does. 

My content strategy is not very heavily focused on personality-driven content. I’m not saying personality-driven in terms of writing. In terms of writing, yes. But I would not share about very intimate stuff. I’m not comfortable there. And the other thing is, we all have opinions. Sometimes I’m scrolling something on Instagram, and recently I wrote a post. I saw someone saying, there was a huge influencer. I really, really admire that. Maybe I mentioned them on the podcast. And they were launching this 2997 program. And as a bonus, they were selling a $97 sales page template. And it got me a little furious. How can you expect people to convert six-figure, seven-figure funnels based on a $97 template. So that was the idea that struck, and then I’m collecting these ideas, and then I wrote a post that if you expect to see great ROI from this, and that was the whole post. So whenever I’m reading something, it triggers my attention, that goes into the content folder. Then all case studies must, must, must have to be on LinkedIn. Any good connections I’ve built, I would have shared about how I pitched Kira and your reply. But sometimes you can’t overshare. You have to run it by them. Are they comfortable doing that? Sometimes I didn’t. And that was a mistake I made. And I would not do that again. I would always run by people. OK, are you comfortable with me sharing this screenshot? Are you comfortable with me sharing this snapshot? Which will save you a lot of trouble. It would have saved me a lawsuit by one of my, yeah.

Rob Marsh: So we’re never going to come back to that. While you’re talking, I’m thinking to myself, OK, we’re raising all of the prices of all of our templates so that the expectation is that they’re going to deliver. what we promised, because you’re right. There’s a framing effect that happens when you price things low, and I think you’re tapping into some deep psychology there. But I want to go back to what you talked about, or what you briefly mentioned, investing in a program that was not a fit. And we don’t necessarily need to talk about the program, but I am really interested in the process that you went through as you thought, okay, I need this. And then how you came to realize, wait a second, this was a bad investment. And maybe are there takeaways from that experience that we can use as we’re looking at programs to invest in?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, I wouldn’t go very much in detail on this, but so what happened is the main one thing was I was operating from a place of fear. Because I said I never faced client acquisition issues. I just came back from my exams. And I was like, OK, let’s do this. I did not do any research on my end. And I went all in. And I was doing all the work, showing up for 1 a.m. calls, all the calls. and doing all the work, but I was still not seeing results. And then I just started doing it my way, like, OK, ditch this process and let me just do what I was doing before. And then I started getting results. And what happened is I pitched a copywriter and she hired me based on that pitch. And she loved the pitch. She loved it so much that she asked me if I was open to come in and do a mini training about pitching in her Mastermind or her course for her students and I did that and I as I said, I share everything about LinkedIn I did that on LinkedIn and this mentor the person read that and then filed a lawsuit or like the whole the process around IP theft and It was a nightmare and Thank goodness I had mentors like Samar Owais, and CSP, Jo, and everyone. And I’ve never mentioned the name of the program nor the mentor, and I never will, because everyone’s running business, and these things happen. And no one ever should. 

We should all protect each other’s businesses, and that’s what I learned from one of the mentors as well. But they guided me throughout the whole time. And Samar was even available at 1 AM, 12 AM, because when it’s morning in America or in the West, it’s night here. So it was a very, very dark time. I did not have clients. I was facing this. And the main part was not about not seeing ROI, because how my brain is, even if I’m not seeing ROI from the particular thing, I’ll just do everything to get the ROI out of it. Like if the program is around funnels, maybe that particular funnels didn’t work for me, but I will do all external research on funnels and get funnels working for me. 

So which happened, but I was really, really hurt emotionally because theft is something like as Muslims and like our entire religion is based on faith. and being true and honest. And it’s for every good human, right? And I was really shattered. Someone’s calling me a thief. And I have worked so hard to build this name. And will it all be gone? What will happen? And there were many dis- I’m feeling so emotional. I’m getting goosebumps from sharing this. So it was a very, very difficult time. And I remember one day, I was almost in tears. All this time, I had I had anxiety, I couldn’t sleep, because all of this time I was checking any notification, like, is there an email? Is there an email? And I remember Abby checking in on LinkedIn, like, hey, are you doing fine? Abi Prendergast. And I was like, no. She’s like, let’s do a call. And I was weeping for 45 minutes straight. And then she said this, that six months later, you’ll be laughing about this, talking on a podcast. And it’s not six months yet, but it was a very difficult time. I still have nothing against the mentor or the program or nothing of that sort, but it would have saved me a lot of energy if I would have been mindful and not operated out of fear. And my biggest advice is to at least reach out to three students before joining any program, three to four students. So you have diverse feedback from those students, whatever the sales page says, because let’s face it, we are copywriters, it’s our job. And sometimes we are not all ethical, right? Whatever it says, do reach out to three, four students. And I want to pitch in here, I’m going to pause and pitch in for the copywriter underground, because I’m connected with a lot of copywriters, and they have said phenomenal things about the program. I’ve heard so many good things, like all about sharing like how it has impacted their overall business. And I didn’t do that. And I just had to face that in my first year in business. And I was really, like, we almost had the thought that, OK, how about we just shut it down? Or what can we do? But the mentors and the people who supported me helped me get through this.

Kira Hug: So just to clarify to make sure I understand, maybe I’m getting lost in the weeds. The lawsuit was because you were sharing some of the insights from the course, and that’s what triggered the lawsuit?

Alefiya Khoraki: That was the accusation. That was the accusation. But it wasn’t there. It was just me walking through three of my successful pitches.

Kira Hug: Got it.

Alefiya Khoraki: And I posted about that on LinkedIn. And directly, the email came in that, OK, this is an IP theft you’re sharing.

Kira Hug: So it sounds like it was already not a great experience for you and then that just, that just sunk.

Alefiya Khoraki: I wouldn’t say, I wouldn’t, yeah, I wouldn’t, yeah, I wouldn’t just put it out there, Kira, but maybe, yeah, it wasn’t, but it, yeah.

Kira Hug: Well, the question I would ask that could be relevant to people in our audience is what would you recommend to someone who is going through something difficult? It might not be a lawsuit. It could be something personal. It could be an issue with a family member. It’s just something that is depleting of energy and taking away from business focus and joy and leaving you feeling really hollow. And you mentioned support from your networks. I think you already covered that. But what other advice would you give to them?

Alefiya Khoraki: At that moment when you’re facing all this, you just want to slip in bed and do nothing. You don’t want to wake up. You don’t want to do client projects. You don’t want to do anything. So there’s nothing that can like, even if you try and watch shows, nothing happens. And it led to a lot of fights between me and my husband as well, because at that time he said not to invest here. And I was like, can you just trust my gut? And it turns out my gut sometimes is really shitty in these things. And then he’s like, you got us into this. And so those things happened. But the major thing is having mentors who have been in the game for five years, seven years, and paying for that directly. access. I know it can be a lot in the first year of the business or second year of the business. It just, it has so many more emotional, financial, so many benefits. And then having a peer group, which is not your family, but who are like in the business with you. If you’re a copywriter listening, copywriters, if you’re designers listening, designers who understand, like someone saying, you know, like, When I started and I was seeing all these success stories, I thought none of the successful copywriters had failed projects. But then as I had coffee chats with them, I go, yeah, this project failed and that project failed. I said, OK, this is so normal. These things happen, and I’m not the only one. And you can’t know all that until you start building those relationships. So relationships is the only advice I would give to people struggling.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. So while we’re talking, you mentioned your team, while we’re talking about this, you work with your husband, you said there are other people in the business. Obviously you, it’s a pretty young business and to already have a team, talk about the team that you’ve built and lessons you’ve learned along the way.

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah. So last year it was like a hiring and firing fest. So it was like one month I’m hiring this and the next month I’m firing. because I had no idea how to hire someone and how to fire and what to look. And then along the way, I built an SOP like, okay, this is what I’m looking for. This is what I need. So currently what my team is me, my husband and two other junior operators. And one of them handles the LinkedIn part as well for me. So she’s doing double jobs. Yeah, that’s it. Me, my husband. And so how it goes is I handle the whole PR and marketing side of the business. And client acquisition, that’s what I specialize in. My husband does accounts. We both do client work. And he is like, OK, where are the finances going? How do we keep investing? Is it time for a branding investment? Because my financial literacy is not that good. And he is really good at that. And then he handles the whole management side. OK, no. And then, yeah, so one thing before investing in programs, read contracts. Don’t just do it on the fly. I was like, yeah, I trust this person. Let me just do that. Don’t do that. Read contracts really thoroughly. If there are contracts and you can run them by a lawyer, do that. So now my husband takes care of all that, reading the contracts, reading them again and again, sending contracts to clients and all the I would not say techie side, but the managerial side of the business. And then I handle the client acquisition side and then we both do projects together. And then the team, it’s when I have like a lot of, um, they’re, they’re not exactly employees because last year I was doing on employee basis and it didn’t work out because sometimes you have, it was such a young business that I, I was, I wasn’t having that much income that I could have two full-time employees. So then I shifted to subcontractors. Then when I have excess work, I pass on to them and then I’m the one editing it. And then this year, what I’m planning is adding an editor to the whole process to make the entire copy delivering process more faster than what it was last year.

Kira Hug: What is the scope of the business? What does that look like today? The number of projects you’re working on per month, the type of projects you’re working on. You mentioned LinkedIn, ghost writing for LinkedIn.

Alefiya Khoraki: No, we don’t do that anymore. That was last year. So then we shifted to funnels and that’s when the business really picked up. So now we’re like this very, it’s very fresh since we started funnels like three months and I’m booked out till May end. And we’re doing like one or two projects per month, which is $14,000 per funnel. So yeah, that’s how it looks. And the scope is, it looks like a six figure year this year. My goal was 80K, so we’ve already like 60% covered that. So either we’ll take the year off after we hit that goal, or we’ll move it up to six figures. Scope is a lot. There is like easily, I know this is what hurts me a lot that some copywriters just get because I had a copywriting client and this is also what I want to share that I had a copywriting client like a copy coaching client and she just got into it because of how people are promising that how it’s so lucrative and you make so much money and blah blah and then she was like I’m learning all these new skills and I don’t even know English properly So you know that whole claim that you can get into this even if English is not your first language? It’s true, but you have to have a very serious passion for writing. If you’re just getting into the money, she paid like a lot of money, $2,500. And after four sessions, the fifth session was a therapy session-ish. And I was like, OK, you can do it. And she started crying. I felt so bad for her. She started crying that I can’t do this with my full-time job. all that and then she said okay I just can’t take it anymore and I’ll quit and I’ll go back to my teaching job and sometimes it really hurts and then I wrote I wrote that on LinkedIn too like don’t don’t enter this world because someone has promised you more money. Enter this world if you’re really passionate about writing, if you’re really passionate about marketing, if you’re willing to do whatever it takes to get the clients, get the work done, because even copywriting, it seems like it’s writing. It’s not. There’s so many layers and you can’t always learn enough. Then there’s tone of voice, there’s headlines. One time there’s how to begin emails and then there are personality driven emails. You just have to learn every single day. And if you have day jobs and if you have children and if you have other sort of issues and if you feel like you can’t do a lot, so at least don’t quit your job and don’t give up everything and start this. What do you think about that?

Rob Marsh: I tend to agree that it’s a good idea to have a lot of runway and to allow yourself the time to build a client list and all of that. But there’s also the tension that happens when you have something that’s safe And you can always go back to your day job that you don’t push as far into the thing that you want to do. So there’s a balance there. We’ve definitely worked with copywriters who had the day job and they held onto that so tightly that they couldn’t grow their copywriting job. And the flip side, you know, we’ve worked with copywriters who lost the day job, had to make it work, and within a year or two, you know, six-figure businesses, one that I know of with a seven-figure business, right? So those things happen, and there’s a tension there. So I agree with that caveat.

Alefiya Khoraki: But I feel they should not come into this business thinking it’s easy work, because it’s not. Like, if… 100% agree with that.

Kira Hug: Not, I mean, especially not in 2024. Like this is it’s, yeah, it’s never been easy, but it will only be it will only get harder to be top at your game. With competition with AI. You need to be. Yeah, I mean, it’s just that’s the truth. And that’s the reality of the future. So circling back to what you shared before you said, Something along the lines of, you know, all I need is 24 hours and I can get money in the door. I can get a client in the door. But there was that one period where that wasn’t working for you. So let’s say there’s a copywriter listening.

Alefiya Khoraki: That was the period I was going through this whole lawsuit as well. So I was not in that mind game. But yeah, even external things. And then I’ve heard many successful copywriters, Iman, Shanti, all talk about that particular month, they did not have clients. So I didn’t, I don’t know if December was just a month where we heard that too.

Kira Hug: So, but let’s say there’s a copywriter listening, they want a client, they want to have that client in the next 24 hours. What are three things you would say, go do this now? And I almost guarantee, or maybe you can guarantee, you can have a client in 24 hours. Or maybe it’s just one thing.

Alefiya Khoraki: The first thing I would do is look at my most successful project and circle that client and see if they’re okay with me sharing the results and the case study with whoever I wish to share. Then I look for 10 friends of that particular client. not just anyone else, 10 particular friends of that client. Maybe I could find them from social media following or people who’ve been commenting and going down that rabbit hole, but finding friends or people who are connected with, but first getting the client’s consent that if he or she is okay with me sharing this with other people. And then because it just shortens the cycle so much when you share the name that that’s a friend or they know. So I would just do that and then reach out to them via LinkedIn or directly, but I would not even ask the client to make the recommendation because sometimes it takes a lot of time. Sometimes it takes like, okay, maybe next week or this, if I want a client fast, I’ll do it myself. So reaching out to that 10 clients will, if, and if you’ve worked, if that person is a little influential or Even if that’s not influential, but has the power to lead to at least $1,000 project, I would do that, first thing. Second, if you’re active on any social media platform, see people who are liking your posts, commenting on your posts. And if they are anywhere around your ICP, don’t reach out to them saying, hey, I need a client or blah, blah, blah. Just open a conversation and talk about how you’re looking for someone like them. 

One sneaky trick I’ve done is if I really want to work with you, Kira, I would reach out to you and say, Hey, Kira, I recently worked with XYZ and I would love to have clients like Rob. And you identify as Rob as well. That should be the thing. And would you mind being an affiliate or Would you mind making an introduction knowing how much your authority holds? And three times that message has yielded, hey, thank you for this message. And then obviously mentioning a name. I’ve worked with this name, who they might identify, sometimes they might not. And then you can link that, OK, this person has these many followers or this is the type of person I’ve worked with. And many of the times they have said, I’m interested in something like this. So it just lifts off the pressure for them saying, OK, you pitched me. but you’re actually looking to pitch them, but just pitching them as an affiliate. So sometimes it’s genuine as well. You’re looking to get them as an affiliate, but it also helps that because sometimes this, the pitching has become so saturated. Like I’ll get you this, I’ll do this. I’ll do that. And our inbox are so flooded that this just lifts off the pressure that, okay, I’m not getting pitched. I’m just getting welcomed to do something. And if I’m interested, I’ll say yes. The second thing, The third thing, I think that’s pretty much the two things which would help.

Rob Marsh: The third thing is pay attention to the first and second things.

Alefiya Khoraki: Yeah, let’s do it again.

Rob Marsh: You know, as you talk about this too, Alefiya, one of the things with that pitch strategy, when you ask the person that you’ve worked with who is like you or who can I reach out to and they give you that name, adding them as a CC when you send that pitch that says, hey, Kira recommended that I reach out to you because and then Kira’s copied on the email. That’s just another bit of social proof. Obviously, if Kira didn’t recommend that I reach out to this person, she might jump in with a, you know, an email saying, wait a second, I didn’t reach. So it’s that proof and makes it even more real and gives that person an opportunity to respond. And so just, yeah, another thing to do if you follow that strategy, which is a really good strategy for getting a response. Whether or not you get the work, who knows, but it’s a great way to start that relationship for sure.

Alefiya Khoraki: I love that. I’m going to try that.

Rob Marsh: So as we get to the end of our interview with you, Alefiya, one thing that I’m wondering is, okay, what have you got planned for your business coming up? You’ve obviously made some really big changes in the products that you offer, the services that you do for your clients. You have this big goal of six figures. You’ve moved into doing more funnels. What else is happening in your business that’s going to produce big results in the future?

Alefiya Khoraki: One thing is I’m not looking to scale very fast this year. I’m being intentional about it, not taking more projects, although I can with the two people I have, but I’m trying to be a little slow here so that nothing is rushed and everything feels like, okay, I have control over everything. So that’s the business side of it. And the second side is I have nothing, like no website, no branding. nothing, no email list. And it’s time that I take these things seriously. Because now, if someone is inviting me to speak in a summit, all I’ve got to share is my LinkedIn profile, which was working with me fine. But now if I want to step up a little as an authority, so I currently have just a random Google Docs sales page, which is also one thing that If you don’t have all the things in place, if you don’t have a fancy website, if you’re intimidated with tech, design, and all the things, maybe you don’t have the time to figure out, OK, who to hire for branding here. You’re all about Branding, I know. But if you’re just getting started and you’re intimidated, I pushed all these things because of my fear of this. And then I was like, OK, one fine day, I just launched a Google Docs sales page. And that sales page, it has been like three months, and it has already brought in 30K worth of projects just from the sales page alone, a Google Doc sales page on my LinkedIn. So starting messy is fine. 

So that’s the second thing going on in the business. I’m looking to get these assets in place. And the third thing is looking to do more speaking opportunities. I had a speaking coach as a client, and then I wavered off a part of the project fee. She was one of my first funnel projects. And then she got me a ticket into her speaking bootcamp. So I’m looking to improve my speaking skills while I do that. Um, I’ve practiced that. I know that’s how I, Kira, I reached out to you like, okay, we were talking in that LinkedIn comments and you’re playing as opposed to, and you’re like, okay, which, so I’m looking to go on more podcasts. I have a goal of 30 and 24 doing at least, two to three guest trainings and masterminds than more of the speaking side of things this year.

Kira Hug: Amazing. And I’m curious to hear what you think the future of copywriting looks like as you think out maybe not too far into the future, maybe the next two or three years. What excites you? What opportunities do you see?

Rob Marsh: What does that look like?

Alefiya Khoraki: The thing which has helped me personally is I don’t think I’ve got business because of being a copywriter. I’ve got business because of being a strategist and a consultant. And I could do that because I had this whole bakery business experience, which really helps you think like a business owner. These are the moving pieces, these are marketing pieces. And even though I was working for LinkedIn, I saw the aerial view of the business. And that’s where your price point can be justified a lot. So I feel the future of copywriting is more of consultancy, strategy, and, of course, AI. But I’ve still not dipped my toes into AI. It’s something that really overwhelms me. And I’m still doing fine without it, at least till now. But I plan to get someone on board on my team who handles that part. So you can’t neglect that. So it’s part of that, you have to catch up on it, maybe streamline some of your processes and learn AI. So if it doesn’t work for you, hire someone to do that. But strategy and AI is here to be for the next at least five years.

Rob Marsh: Well, when you’re ready, Althea, we have a course for copywriters and content writers about AI, how to use it. It’s got some good stuff in there, so you can check that out. Yes.

Alefiya Khoraki: I’m telling someone from a team to get on that course.

Rob Marsh: There you go. Yeah, for sure. So we want to thank you for joining us. And you already told us you don’t have a website for us to link to, but you are on LinkedIn. Is that where people should go to find out more about you or to connect with you?

Alefiya Khoraki: Yes, LinkedIn it is. You’ll find me there. And yes, I’m always there answering the DMs, answering the comments. So you can always reach out to me.

Rob Marsh: Amazing. We’ll find you there. Thank you.

Kira Hug: Thank you so much.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Aleffia Karaki. I want to just add a couple of thoughts like I usually do. So you’ve got a couple of things to think about as you walk away from this episode. 

Now, we mentioned this in the intro, but it was funny that Alefiya didn’t actually mention this until the very end of the podcast, but she has no website. She has no branding. She’s never taken a branding photograph. She’s never thought about the positioning from that standpoint. She’s never done any email pitching. Everything that Aleffia has done is done on LinkedIn, and she’s built a six-figure business. So if you have any questions about whether it’s possible, it absolutely is possible. Not only that, but she’s done it from India and she’s done it in less than a year. So that just demonstrates the power of LinkedIn as a place to go to connect with the kinds of clients that can hire you for the work that you want to do. If you haven’t been on LinkedIn posting content or even commenting on other people’s content, dialing in your profile, do those things and get there because especially for certain industries, but almost everybody is there and you’re able to connect with just so many potential clients worth checking out. So go back and listen to what we’ve talked about here, as well as some of the previous episodes we’ve done recently with people like Alex Thompson and how they’re using LinkedIn in their business. 

Let me just reiterate what Alefiya’s approach was. She mentioned that she would post every single day. She would comment 50 times. That’s a pretty good amount of comments. And when you’re commenting on LinkedIn, you don’t want to just comment something and say, Hey, yep. Great. I agree. Do you want to be adding something to the discussion? So it will take a little bit of brainpower. You probably don’t have to comment 50 times, but. Alifia did it and it created this six figure business for her. She was also making 10 connection requests every single day. And less than a year later, she has almost 5,000 followers on LinkedIn. That’s 5,000 people who see her content show up in their feeds almost every single day. She also mentioned that she was reposting old content that got a response. So, you know, it’s content ages out after three or four months, maybe six months or even a year, reusing that content is a great way to not have to reinvent the wheel and to connect with additional people who’ve started following you in the past few months, people that the algorithm will find for you. So that’s the approach. Post every day, comment, make connection requests and accumulate your followers. And if you’re doing it the way that Alephia has done it, you could create a very significant business using LinkedIn. 

There’s one other thing that Alefiya talked about. She mentioned several other examples of copywriters that she started to follow and mimic. She mentioned Eman Zabi, Asai Arasi, Prerna Malik, Samar Awais. All of them have been on the podcast before. I didn’t have time to look up the episode numbers so that you can listen to what they shared, but jump into your podcast player and look up those people, Aman, Asai, Prerna, and Samar. and you’ll learn from them as Aleffia did. But something else to note is all of these people weren’t just guests on the Copywriter Club podcast. They actually participated in our programs. Eman was part of the Copywriter Accelerator. Asai, Perna, and Aman all were members of the Copywriter Think Tank. And All four of them have been in the Copywriter Underground at some point or another. So if you really want to succeed like some of the people that you see out there, as Alefiya mentioned, it makes sense to imitate and do the things that they do. And if they’ve gotten great results from a particular program, whatever, it might be worth considering. 

Now, of course, As Alefya also pointed out, you don’t want to be operating from a place of fear when selecting a program or a course or anything else that you’re investing in. So keep that in mind. But there are definitely worse people to follow than the ones that Alefya has mentioned. Aman, Asai, Prerna, and Samar are all just fantastic writers and good people and worth listening to their podcast episodes if you’d like a little bit more. 

Okay, I want to thank Aleffia for joining us to chat about her business and how she uses LinkedIn to attract clients so that she doesn’t have to cold pitch. She doesn’t need a website. She doesn’t need to do all of the things that so many of us have been doing. You can connect with her, of course, on LinkedIn. Just look for Aleffia Karaki when you’re there. And don’t forget that you can get your hands on the AI training document that I mentioned at the top of the show when you go to thecopyrighterclub.com/AIwriter. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast.

Want clients to find you instead of always having to pitch and find them? Then you need to be where they are. And in most cases, that means somewhere online—Twitter, Instagram, Tiktok, LinkedIn or in your own newsletter. In the 390th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with former dentist turned copywriter Kieran Drew about how he took two years to grow an online presence that earns him six figures a year today. This one is worth listening to twice. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Blockbuster Principle by Michael Simmons (article) The Almanack of Naval Ravakan Poor Charlie’s Almanack by Charlie Munger The Status Game by Will Storr Mastery by Robert Greene Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground HypeFury (posting tool)

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Last week I started off the podcast by talking about the idea of slow and steady growth. This week is a little different. It’s about overnight success. Or rather, what might look like overnight success, but really is a two year effort to build and iterate something that works.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and social media expert and not-so-funny stand up comic Kieran Drew. Kieran is one of those over night success stories. When I first came across him online, he was in the middle of a six-figure launch that surprised even him. And in the year since then, he’s done it twice more. But the back story is less instant recognition and more grind and fail, then grind and fail again until something works. 

But before we get to what Kieran shared about launches, growing a newsletter and social media presence and why he gave up a promising career and guaranteed income for something a lot riskier like copywriting, I want to mention again our free report called how to find clients. I recently took a week to rework and revise one of our most popular client finding  resources… this report. it’s completely updated for 2024 and now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… many of them could help you attract a client in the next 24 hours. Wither we’ve used these ourselves, or we know other successful copywriters who have landed good, high-paying clienets with them. I’ve said it before…This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. In fact, if you’re just going to download it to get to it later, don’t bother. It’s too valuable to not get used. But if you’re ready to take action and go after a new client, this report includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. Get your copy now at  thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kieran.

Kira Hug: All right, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter? Yeah, sure.

Kieran Drew: Well, first of all, thank you for having me on because I have devoured your podcast. When I first heard of writing and copywriting, I must have listened to like 80 of your episodes because it was a very exciting and scary world, copywriting.

Rob Marsh: So you only have 320 to go, it sounds like.

Kieran Drew:  I know.I had to start doing the work at one point. It’s been a massive help. I got into copywriting while I was a dentist, up until a couple of years ago and when COVID hit. I never really enjoyed my job as a dentist. The pay was pretty good, but unfortunately, I was working six days a week and I sort of lacked that creative fulfillment. And when COVID hit, obviously we couldn’t see patients from home. So I had a couple of months and I thought, you know what, let’s have a little look at what we could do here. 

And I actually decided to be a standup comedian and I started writing jokes in the morning and thankfully no one actually heard my jokes, but what I noticed was those few hours in the morning when I was writing flew by. And that was my first taste of flow. So I started to ask myself, how can we build a writing career from this? And I found blogging. I sucked at all that. I failed for like a year. I built a website that all went terribly. I tried writing on Instagram, Reddit, and it all just failed one bit after another. 

And then I met a friend on Twitter and he said, have you ever heard of this thing called copywriting? And until that time I thought copywriting was for lawyers, right? Like the circle with the R. Iit was really cool to realize that you can combine writing with persuasion and psychology. I fell in love. I mean, I sucked at it. I’m still not that great, but I fell in love with it from there.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk a little bit about moving away from what you did before. Obviously you’re not entirely happy with your career, even though you’re making pretty good money. Let’s talk about the mindset a little bit and the shift. Because when you’ve invested so much time, schooling, effort, energy into something, it feels like there’s a lot of tendency to be stuck and to want to remain and to finish. You may not have been happy, but you had invested so much into your career. Talk about that mindset shift and what it took to step away from that into something,  as you describe it, totally unknown.

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I mean, the toughest point probably was right at the start when I sort of knew that the career was okay. I wasn’t ever, I was never really that mad about it. Like I said, the pay was pretty good, so I never really questioned it, but unfortunately dentistry is not really transferable. So I used to feel really desperate, um, going into work. And I remember listening to podcasts of creative people thinking, Oh God, I’m in the wrong career, but there’s literally nothing you can do. And so stupidly, like a bad gambler, my, my plan was to double down. So I started specializing, I took a second job and I thought, look, if you can slog this out for 10, 15 years, at least you have enough money. If you save well and invest, you can at least try to retire early and do something else.

And what happened there was, so I started doing okay at dentistry and I remember listening to Seth Godin and he was talking about sunk cost bias. I’d never heard of it before. And I was like, well, here it is. You know, I’ve spent 10 years on a career, uh, over six figures in training. And I always thought because of that, you know, the first 10 years of your career should dictate the next 50. And when you think about that on paper, it’s like, how stupid is that? And, when I realized this, then it actually got a bit harder because every day I drove to work, I was like, you’re making a big mistake. You, you become aware of the opportunity cost of time. But the only good part was it was quite exciting to finally go, “you know what? Changing careers is always really overwhelming because you’re always focusing on things like expert status.” And I was like, “you know, let’s just start by exploring and curiosity. And you’re not here to make money. There’s no pressure on the result. Let’s just get good at a different skill.” And that was really fun. But over time, it’s a bit like having a stone in your shoe, Rob, where you think you could ignore it, but the more you walk, the more it annoys you. And I was coming to work and I was like, I really do feel like I’m in the wrong job here. 

My plan was to slowly transition. I go down to three days a week at dentistry, start building up the writing career and do that over sort of five years. I’m really risk averse or I used to be anyway. And what actually happened was, my boss texts me the day before I was meant to start a new job three days a week. And he texts me being like, oh, the clinic isn’t ready for another month. And we’ve been waiting nine months to work together. And I was, I remember I was so happy I was in this flat and I was running up and down fist pumping because I was like, yes, I don’t have to work for a month. I get to ride for a month. 

And when that sort of settled down, I was like, how screwed up is this that you’re celebrating so much to do something you love? Maybe this is actually a sign to back out. And I have never been so scared in my life, man. I called my mom, my dad, all my friends being like, “I think I’m going to quit my career here.” And it’s way too early. Everyone was just saying, go for it. At the end of the day, you can always go back. This isn’t a fatal decision.

And then I went to see the boss again. People say I was brave. I had a panic attack outside the practice. I remember I was walking past the door, went to knock, panicked, went to the alleyway, stood in the alleyway for like five minutes. And then when I actually came in, I spent half an hour talking to nurses about jobs I’ll never do and materials I’ll never use and all that. Eventually when I got into his office, I said, yeah, I’m done. And he said something similar where it’s like, oh, you’re throwing away 10 years of a career you’re only 10 years in. And I was like, precisely, there’s never a good time to quit. It’s now. Right. So yeah, a scary decision, but in retrospect went really well.

Kira Hug: I always wonder when people feel this change of heart, if you know, for you, did you love dentistry in the beginning or do you feel like you just, you started on a path that was really never something you loved or did something change for you over those 10 years?

Kieran Drew: We’re expected to pick a career before we can pick a car, right? So, I mean, I decided to do dentistry from about 16 years old. And at the time it felt like the right choice because I’m not sure what it’s like in America, but it’s dentist, lawyer, or doctor, you’ve made it. 

I come from a working class family and so no one’s really graduated from uni. So I was like, hell yeah, this is going to be it. And it felt like the golden ticket. And yes, when I was at uni, I was like, Ooh, it’s not actually that fun staring in someone’s mouth all day. And, I’ve got quite a bad neck and back and I was always sore. And it was like, you kind of ignore these little signals. Because we always used to joke, Oh, you know, we’ll have the Porsche and the golf play golf all day. And I don’t like cars that much. I don’t play golf. And so when I graduated, that’s where it started to sink home. It’s like golden handcuffs sort of thing. 

I was happy when the paychecks were coming in, just so I could invest and save. But it doesn’t really solve that Monday morning anxiety. Right? And I think the more I started reading about philosophy and what you’re doing with your life, it was, it was kind of like, I don’t know, it seemed to me, you can’t really do great work until you’re loving what you do. The more I realized that the more it just felt like time to throw it away and start a new career.

Rob Marsh: And then as you started exploring, playing around with it, when stuff isn’t working, you created a website—blogging—it wasn’t working. How did you stick with it knowing that there’s a positive business outcome here? You know, writing is one thing. Lots of people have books in their drawers that never get published or they’ve written bad poetry and never make any money. But how did you keep going through all of that?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It’s easy to paint the story in retrospect. I think I’m going to try not do that. I’ll be a hundred percent honest. I think fear is a brilliant motivator. I really started hating my job that much that I was like, you have to keep trying. So that was pretty handy. The other side of it, I remember having a conversation with my girlfriend and I was like, look, this is going to suck. So let’s expect results in two years, not two months. And that was one metric I constantly ran through where I was like, okay, we’re at month 10, nothing’s working, but you said two years. And ironically, actually the 24th month was my first 10 K month, but it took me 13 months to make $1. So I think zooming out has always helped. 

It’s really easy just to say: have faith. I think that really helps people that much because having faith is having complete confidence that something will work. You don’t really get that until you’ve done it. But I used to just look at people who had done it and thought if they could do it, why can’t I? I always said for copywriting, if I could get paid 4k a month or something, I would be in heaven. So I don’t need to be this six, seven figure copywriter. And so it was always like, if they can get to that, surely processes out there somewhere. A combination of those things.

Kira Hug: I have one more question about dentistry before we fully move on, we’ll see if this comes out the way… you’ve worked with a lot of people, you’ve seen the inside of their mouth. What frustrates you the most about patients? Is it they just don’t floss no matter how many times you tell them? Why can’t they just adult and floss and be a good adult?

Rob Marsh: I think this is the second time we’ve mentioned flossing on the podcast in 400 episodes. 

Kira Hug: Are you sure we’ve talked about it before? 

Rob Marsh: I mentioned I floss every day on a previous episode. I am a daily flosser.

Kira Hug: I do now because of tiny habits. Anyway…

Kieran Drew: To be honest, from what I’ve heard, you Americans are much better at flossing than us Brits.

Rob Marsh: I don’t know that that’s true across the board though. I don’t know very many people who floss every day. One of my friends is a really good dentist. This is not a dentistry podcast, but one of my good friends is a dentist. And he says, if you look at the amount of floss used in America, it averages to like two feet per person per year, which means nobody’s really flossing.

Kieran Drew: Well, the flossing bit didn’t annoy me because I get why people don’t. I mean, it’s very hard to do the whole vitamin versus painkiller thing, right? People start flossing when they come to me, the gums are knackered. The thing that was actually quite tough as a dentist. And one of the main reasons I quit was because… well actually two… for one, no one is happy to see you. And that’s actually quite tough, like emotionally. You know, dentists have one of the highest suicide rates. Every single time you meet someone, you have to be very affable. If anything goes wrong, you’re to blame. And you know, the good part of that is I actually learned a lot about how to talk to people because I’ve never been that great at that. But when you meet 40 people a day,  you learn how to do that stuff. So that was pretty good, but it got very demotivating. I’m quite a positive guy. If you’re quite empathetic, you take on a lot of people’s problems. So I used to be exhausted every day. So that was quite tough. 

And the other side is perverse incentives. So I don’t know what it’s like in America, but the NHS system, you’re kind of rewarded to be on a hamster treadmill. And so you’re incentivized to not do the best work because your business will go bust. And, iif you’re in a broken incentive system over time, it begins to warp the way you think. One thing I’ve really liked about being online is that everyone’s happy to see you if you’re here to make people money and save them time. Right? I think that that’s brilliant and you can really set up win-wins for everyone. And so that’s what I’ve been doing since.

Kira Hug: All right. I’ll be nicer to my dentist next time.

Kieran Drew: They treat you better as well if you like that.

Rob Marsh: So Kieran, let’s talk about your business today and what it looks like. You know, I actually think, you know, 13 months to the first dollar is an amazing runway. It takes a lot of faith in yourself that you’re going to make it work. 24 months to get to 10K, but you’re doing better than that today from what I’ve seen online and from what other people have said about you. Our mutual friend, John Bijakovic talks highly of you. So tell us about your business today.

Kieran Drew: It’s been a bit of a pinch yourself moment, but this is my 24th month in monetizing. So in two weeks of the 31st of March. I launched my first product two years ago. That was a 5k launch. Uh, that’s probably the biggest rush I’ve ever had to find out that internet money is real after 13 months. That was incredible. Then it was a very scrappy 12 months where I just tried to do everything. I was doing ghostwriting, consulting, coaching… I had my digital product. I was building the email list. I was just trying to, you don’t really know what you like until you try it, right? So I was just saying yes to everything. Like a lot of people, I was a burned out shell after about nine months. But it got me to my first six figures within 12 months. And at that point I said, look, I’m struggling to get anywhere over 8K a month because I was so busy. I couldn’t think straight. And so I decided to cut away everything and just do two things. Which was writing—the more clients I was signing on, I was writing less  because a lot of it was coaching. I wasn’t doing my own writing. And Product building, because I think serving people at scale is really, really fun. I love leverage. I find it fascinating. So when I made that decision in January, 2023, I launched my flagship product because everyone was just like a swipe file in May. 

I was going into my second launch. I was going in expecting 30 K, which I would have been buzzing about. And it ended up going to 140K in four days. And so that was absolutely crazy. It felt like a massive fluke. And then I relaunched again in September and that was 180 K. Then we launched another product in November for black Friday, which is like the MRR, which is at maybe 4 or 5K a month now. And then I actually just refilmed my whole flagship product. I wasn’t that happy with it. So I completely rebuilt it and gave it away to my current customers for free. And that was 120 K. So actually in the past two years, we just crossed 750 K, which is again, crazy to me. Like absolutely wild.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Amazing. Okay. Can you talk about the product a little bit about what it is and just how you launched it? I mean, anyone listening might think, okay, I want to launch a product and have a 140 K launch. What do I need to do to get there? What had you done before that?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I mean, so the, just a quick TLDR for the product is called high impact writing. Uh, it’s a social media writing product primarily. And the reason I built it was because actually it didn’t exist when I was writing. So I mentioned to you guys at the start, my sort of journey was I was going to be a copywriter and, but I ended up getting into the social media world and, um, I started to grow quite fast because when you learn the fundamentals of copy, it really works on social media. A lot of copywriters aren’t involved on social media and a lot of social media people are terrible writers. And I wanted to bridge that gap. So, um, thankfully that went quite well in terms of the launch stuff. So, I mean, when people say, how do you have a six figure launch? I always say the first answer is I spent the first year sucking at my first product. Cause you know, it was a 5k launch. I launched as quietly as I could. I was terrified to promote myself. And then throughout the year I was like, well, we’re going to have to learn how to sell this thing. So. What actually happened with high impact writing, uh, we’ve got the email list. So, um, probably at the time there were 15,000 subscribers on that, uh, maybe a little bit more. The biggest change was, uh, again, the concept from Seth Godin and about tension, because you only have four days to launch a product, maybe five, depending on how long you want to do it. And so what, um, I found fascinating is like an elastic band and the longer and harder that you pull. When you let go of that band, the bigger the snap at the end. So for high impact writing, I think maybe four months, four or five months before I started, uh, uh, marketing it. Didn’t know what it was called. Didn’t even know what I was building. I just said, um, on my emails, just at the top, by the way, a few people have been asking about my writing systems. Click it if you want to join the waiting list. And so gradually started building up a wait list as we were going. And I started to use that as ways to test ideas. So for example, if I were to write, um, a post on data driven growth, I’d say, if this is interesting to you, we click on this link and I’ll pop it on the waitlist. And I could see the bits that people loved. So I could use that for the sales page and a copy later on. Uh, and then all, all I began to do to build more attention, cause you can only talk about your product so much. So I’m a huge fan of building in public. So I was very inviting for people to be like, Hey, do you want to get involved in this? What can I help you with? How can I help you doing loads of free courses? I started telling the story of the build. So I was showing the slides, I’m showing the filming process, the bloopers, having a good laugh about it, saying that, you know, I’m losing all my hair building this product. And then the whole point I carry over is that like on the day of the launch, nobody was surprised it was coming. A lot of people were excited. They could see the effort, but in the value and, um, Uh, I guess we’ll say in terms of why it hits six figures before that I had released, um, six free courses, maybe eight. So I’m a huge fan of this like reciprocation, right? I thought let’s give everything we know for free. High impact writing is just the concise systems of everything we know. And that’s how I framed it. Uh, so when I actually came to launch day, you know, the, the mechanisms really it’s urgency and scarcity. So, um. Four days, I think the first one was five. I’m never going over four again. Launches are exhausting. They’re exhausting for you. They’re exhausting for the customer. Four days, I think it’s the sweet spot. Inside there, it became like, it’s just maths by the end of it, right. Or math for you guys, um, where attention to the page, certain conversion rate. And so, uh, I started sending more emails, uh, two to four emails per day, slightly segmented. So, you know, if you’re on the wait list, you got four, if you’re on my full list, you get two. Uh, the urgency was for the first launch was you can only buy it for these four days and then I’m closing it because I want to improve the product with people. And it’s not, I mean, people don’t give enough reasons when they, you know, oh, this is open close. It’s like, no, you have to like, people aren’t idiots. We’re all online here. It’s like, you have to give justifications. And so I just said, look, I want to work really closely with my customers, which actually built hype for the second launch because it was like, this guy’s taking this product really seriously. Um, and just tell me where you want to go with that. Cause I’ll just keep going.

Kira Hug: One thing I just want to dig into is you said you have, you had 15,000 subscribers on your list.

Kieran Drew: Yeah.

Kira Hug: So could you just touch on how you had built your list over time? I mean, from social media, I imagine. Yeah. But that’s, that’s a good list to go into a launch with. Yeah.

Kieran Drew: It’s, I’m grateful to have it, uh, 90 now, maybe a little bit less at the time. It was probably about 98% social media. So fully organic. Uh, the only downside to what I had done was I gave away, um, I know a lot of what we call giveaways. So if you guys are on social media at the moment, but, uh, they’re not great. And so like, it’s like, Oh, we give away stuff. You have to give me your email address to get the thing. And I was chasing the numbers, but what I didn’t realize was that the quality of lead that was quite poor. So my churn weight was really high. 

I’ve stopped doing that for like a year now. And the only other thing that I’ve changed, I tried a little bit of courage. So, you know, when someone joins another person’s list, you get recommended, Hey, join Kieran Drew’s and you pay two bucks per subscriber, even with the filters on spark loop, where it’s, you know, if they unsubscribe within two weeks, so they get the welcome sequence for that. The ROI was pretty poor. I think I spent two, three grand as an experiment. And I made two grand or a grand and a half, so probably some tweaks there. So I wasn’t a fan of co-regging. 

Then the other thing now that I’ve been doing is cross promotions. So I realized that you can only do so much work yourself, but there are a lot of people out there that are building really good bonds with their audience. And I just started reaching out and making the ask, right? A lot of us writers are introverted. I hate asking people for stuff, but I just started sending messages, starting with people around my level and just saying, Hey, do you want to promote my list? I’ll promote your list. And it’s been a really cool way to cross populate. And now I’m very grateful to say people like Chris Orzakowski have been helping out and John Morrow. And I’ve just been asking people if they wanted to swap lists and promote. So that’s pretty much all the growth.

Rob Marsh: So let’s talk about what you were doing on social media. I know this is a lot of what you teach in your course, so I’m not asking for a free course. But obviously, there’s some basics here that copywriters need to be aware of. You mentioned a lot of copywriters in social media are doing it wrong or not taking advantage, maybe, of the copywriting skills that we have. We’re taking pictures of our breakfasts and sharing those, all of that stuff. So what should we be doing, you know, or maybe I’m asking for, you know, what are your top two or three tips for what we need to be doing differently when we’re showing up on social media?

Kieran Drew: Funnily enough, it’s kind of like if we’re writing a sales page, uh, we all know that it’s about the customer, right? It’s exactly the same on social media. It’s like having a funnel where social media is the top of the funnel and you’re working people down. And so, Um, saying that we need to be talking about what’s in it for the reader and the way I kind of frame that we have three pillars of magnetic writing to attract and it’s advice, personality, and storytelling. And so I tried to kind of do a bit of a combination of this, depending on your platform. So, um, I’m primarily on X, uh, LinkedIn is pretty popular now as well. Um, on X, you probably post three times a day on LinkedIn. You’d post once is the only difference. And. What I suggest to people is trying to get this blend of, if you’re just giving advice, you’re competing with chat GPT. So there’s no kind of real reason for someone to actually like you. If you’re just personality, I, you know, you’re just talking about politics or whatever. Um, you’re interesting to read, but it doesn’t really build a strong brand. And if you’re just storytelling, there’s no utility. And so what I suggest to people is you think, well, what’s we’ve got one person in mind. We’re going to write to our, I say one true fan, our avatar. And what’s the most useful stuff we can give to help them win? Just giving advice that don’t go too in depth because it’s social media. That’s we don’t consume social media for crazy about depth, which is one big mistake. I see it particularly with new people that have got a lot of expertise. Um, what sort of advice can we give to help them win? How can we address their beliefs? You know, what are they seeing, thinking and feeling? And I think. big mistake we make, particularly me, uh, most of us hate being polarizing or we hedge our bets. And so, um, I always say to crank the dial a little bit. I don’t know. I’m not, don’t be like a dick for, sorry about my language, um, for engagement purposes, but you know, like if you’ve got a strong belief, there’s like a seven chances are when you’re writing on social media, unless you’re someone like Andrew Tate, you dial it down to a five, but actually what you want to do, you need that seven or eight because super, super noisy on social media. And so to slice through it and reach your fans, you have to pick certain messages that you can double down on, starting from a few areas. Um, so that’s very, very short, brief social media side. And like you said, no, uh, but pictures of your food and stuff. It’s not actually that bad if it’s the occasional bit of personality, if you really love cooking, but people are here to learn and be inspired. So.

Rob Marsh: So just to bring this home, can you give us some examples of the way you crank up the dial in your posts so that you’re getting that kind of attention?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It depends on who your enemy is. So my enemies evolved over time. I used to be very anti 9 to 5. And so my most viral tweets have been insulting the boss. I could probably actually have a quick look at one here. But yeah, just looking at the bosses saying stuff like no boss has ever said I care about my workers, creativity, health and happiness, which is why you need to employ yourself. People love this sort of stuff where you’re throwing stones at other people. Again, similar with like sales pages. And these days I am more kind of focused on peace of mind, clarity. I think the thing that’s helped me most as a writer is being able to think straight. And so I actually ironically like to throw a lot of stones at social media and, you know, like constantly scrolling and all that sort of stuff. So. Um, getting clear on an enemy and just trying to articulate yourself in what I call sticky statements. So using stuff like alliteration, rhythm and rhyme juxtaposition, uh, these are quite nice writing tools, just kind of condensing your best ideas into presentation. That’s the shorter form stuff. 

And then the longer form stuff would be more the value-based, you know, the steps, the tricks, the blueprints. And, um, one thing that. One thing that’s good for your audience copywriters is that 90% of people in social media have no results. They want to build the audience and have the product, but they haven’t got anything to talk about. And so whenever I talk to someone new that ‘s experienced, like I was just chatting to David Deutsch, he’s been on X for a little while now as well. And it was like, hey, you’ve got so much reputation here to tap into. You have to be your own cheerleader. And so in the hooks, the framing, I say like, you have to talk about yourself as much as you can without coming across as like, hey, look at me. So if you’re comfortable with mentioning revenue numbers, but even just talking about like, hey, I was working with a client instead of it being here are seven random copywriting tips. It’s like, you know, I’ve been working with 67 clients over the past five years. Here are my seven favorite tips. Every single person who reads that now knows that you’re the real deal. So trying to identify your skip the lines as you’re writing, it’s people don’t trust you until you prove who you are. So it’s a great way to put your foot in the door.

Kira Hug: Do you have additional ideas to help us, you know, really speak to our experience and expertise? Cause I agree. I think that’s just, I mean, I know I’ve struggled with that where I’m like, I don’t mention how many clients I’ve worked with. I just, I know it’s important, but I just, it’s a struggle. Um, yeah. Other strategies.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I mean, like, uh, unfortunately the part about social media is it comes with a certain level of cringe. And you have to decide that level and that’s okay for you. So I think the ultimate one or the big discussion is, are you happy to share revenue numbers? Because unfortunately we’re all just monkeys with mobile phones, right? And people pay attention to money the most, but if you’re not, you can frame it in different ways. I have a number of clients even talking about projects that you’re working on. So, you know, if you were to say that you were building out a 2020 email sequence, all of these things are kind of what most people aren’t doing. So just trying to frame your projects and the way you’ve been working or how long you’ve been a copywriter, or the fact that you guys have almost 300 episodes or 300 or more episodes of all of these things, are little reputation builders. And then I have to remind myself sometimes to be my own cheerleader because I’m like, God, I really don’t want to talk about myself here, but just having a couple of words completely changes the framing of what you say. And having that personal perspective, you know, the problem on social media is it’s full of everyone telling other people what to do. 

But if you’re talking from like, Hey, this is what I did. So you’re swapping all of your how to’s to how I’s or being a guide instead of a guru, it’s really welcoming. And. The way I tried to frame it for people is if you post a hundred things on social media that are just platitudes and shouting from a podium versus a hundred posts that are like, here’s what I’m learning, doing, and thinking. The second person is going to have a hundred times better relationship with that audience. So even if they don’t grow as fast and that’s really important to know, uh, I’ve smoked the digital dopamine crack pipe way too much. When, when I started, when I realized I could say certain things, uh, to go viral, I was writing stuff, um, like. eight habits you must do before 8am and going viral. And then, uh, I, I certainly realized that, you know, reputation is much more important than reach. And so how you grow your audience is more important than how fast. So hopefully there are a few ideas there for you.

Kira Hug: Well I was writing a post for LinkedIn and now I think I have to redo it because and pull in my own experience into that post. So it doesn’t feel like it’s just like preachy. So I think that’s, that’s really good advice.

Rob Marsh: So Kieran, there’s a lot of stuff that I’d love to dive into on your process and how you create the content. But first, I want to ask about engagement. Because it’s one thing to post, and then there’s a whole other thing around, do you comment? Do you engage with people in direct messaging, whether it’s on LinkedIn or Twitter or wherever? How do you approach that side of it? If you have a post that goes viral, you could spend all day responding to comments.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I was smiling because I hate this stuff.

Rob Marsh: So do I, this is why I have struggled so much, especially with Twitter or X..

Kieran Drew: I mean everything has a cost and being, I have before, before I started on social media, I took a five year break from all social media. I thought it’s the most shallow, toxic, biggest problem that we have in society to cause people to think poorly. So it was hell, hell coming back to it. Um, the only way I could do it at the start, uh, Rob was, um, a basic habit forming here is let’s try and make it enjoyable. So I used to put my favorite music on. I put a timer on for 20 minutes, twice a day, one in my lunch break at work, one after work. So I’m not wasting my creative energy. It didn’t feel like I’m like you said, cause you could do it all day. And I have people who have done it all day and now they’re like, Oh my God, no one’s listening to me because I haven’t actually got anything of substance to talk about. So time blocking… favorite music. 

The big mistake people make on social media is like they’ve rehashed comments. So they say the same thing as the poster doesn’t do anyone any value. Um, and, or the other is you comment on big accounts because of their size, not because of their content and interesting people are not on boring posts. And the whole point in commenting on other people’s stuff is to go find more interesting people. And so my rules are, I don’t reply to anyone that I don’t like, no matter how popular they are. That made it a lot more fun because actually there are so many interesting people out there. And if you’re not judging by audience size, you begin to build quite a cool network. Uh, number two is kind of having a list of people. So if you’re trying to comment on a hundred people’s stuff, you’re like praying to form a relationship, but it’s kind of less is more. So if you have 10 people that you really enjoy talking to… I just use bookmarks. So I open bookmarks, 10 people appear, I comment on their top post. I move on. Less is more to build that bond. 

And again, I guess it comes with a bit of reps, but have fun in the comments. For some reason, people think that you have to comment like a robot, but most of my comments have just been having a laugh and, um, that’s helped a lot. to get in the foot of like quite bigger accounts because they’re like, Oh, this guy’s just, just joking around or, you know, letting your personality come through. So, because one thing I’m very fond of is that you think you’re just talking to one person, but everyone sees that comment. And so if you’re saying some cringe stuff or a lot of my friends use VAs for this, like I just started engaging on LinkedIn last week. I haven’t engaged on LinkedIn yet. I’ve just been posting from X and, uh, I started looking at the replies and I was like, wow. Uh, there are a lot of people using VAs or AI for this and you could smell it a million miles off. Um, I think personally having a little bit of time set aside each day when you, when you’re a little bit tired, but not exhausted. So you don’t suck it up a little bit. Uh, because once you do get that initial momentum, you don’t have to do it as much. Uh, for example, I took like four months off engaging. I was only doing two minutes a day, uh, when I was building my products and stuff. So, um, like I said, there’s a cost to it, but. The social media audience stuff is really, really powerful for a long-term game.

Kira Hug: How do you structure your days beyond spending some of the time, you know, the downtime on social media? How else do you structure your days?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. I’m a big fan of building around your energy. And so. Uh, I wake up at like six in the morning. That’s a habit from, um, or about five, sorry, from trying to write before the nine to five. Uh, and then what I’ll do is I’ll, I love deep work sessions. So 90 minute blocks for writing. And I’ll do two 90 minute blocks in the morning with like a 20 minute walk in between. And during these sort of deep work sessions, um, I don’t go on social media. That’s a big one. Uh, the problem with being a social media entrepreneur is that you’re constantly connected. So I actually don’t go on social media for the first eight hours of my day. No social media, no emails, no client calls until three, 4 PM. So I’ll do, uh, the two work blocks in the morning, go train, have a bit of lunch, do another 90 minute work block, uh, have a little break and then do another 90 minute work block. And in these work blocks, the work is getting less creatively intense. So the first three hours would be your emails, your content, whatever, um, writing I need to do. And then the afternoons I do my lower leverage work. And like I said, I only quite strict about my time. So I only have, uh, no more than four client calls a month or cause in general. Um, uh, I think that’s usually about one call per week. And, um, I spend a lot of time walking and reading, uh, because I remember when I quit, uh, finally quit my nine to five and I was like, wow, you’re going to spend so long writing. You can only write for like four hours, right? Uh, good writing. And so I realized that a lot of it was actually trying to look after yourself outside of writing, because the better you think, the better you write. So I generally walk for 90 minutes a day. Uh, that’s the best time for ideas. And I like to read for about two, three hours a day as well. So. It sounds really boring, but I remember when I was a dentist, I was like, if I could drink tea, write and read books all day, like take me to heaven. That’s the goal.

Kira Hug: Yeah. That’s the dream for people who listen to this podcast. Yeah, for sure. Um, when you say client calls, can you be more specific? Like, are you talking about consulting calls? You’re working with four clients per month and consulting or something?

Kieran Drew: Yeah. Yeah. So a bit of a blend. So I actually only have one client for consulting now, which is just one call per month. Um, that’s just discussing his writing and a bit of his business strategy, mainly around leverage stuff. I think a lot of my friends, they sort of capped out about 20, 30 K a month. And I was always stuck at like the two K a month. And I mean, that leverage long-term play is like building the products, building the automations, the backend of convert kit, helping out with that. The other calls are at scale. So like I have my MRR, that’s a monthly call, um, where people come on Q and a and, uh, critiquing content. I mentioned before that, um, I really liked the service at scale and helping your audience on mass. And that’s something that I made quite early as a constraint. It was, can we do the most high leverage stuff? So the calls are generally group webinars, um, podcasts or another one. So, but, but otherwise. I sound like a diva, but you know, going from 40 patients a day to being able to have like no nothing in a day. Wow. And even if I have one call at 4 PM, it shouldn’t, but if I wake up in the morning and I know I have a free day, like it just feels great. So I just thought, well, why aren’t we just doing this? Even if it means you make less money in the short run, all that time, you can spend building product and stuff. Uh, it’s helping out now. So.

Rob Marsh: So I’m curious about your content creation process and how you think about that. A few weeks ago, we interviewed a woman on the podcast, Amanda Goetz, who creates a month’s worth of content in two days. And then, you know, she’s working on other stuff. And when I say content, I’m talking about her social media content. Then she’s working on course’s… that kind of stuff. What do you do to create your content? Are you creating it all up front and scheduling it to go live? Like walk us through that, how much time you spend on that and your thought processes. How far ahead are you, you know, as you’re thinking through, okay, what am I posting in April? You know, we’re recording this towards the beginning of March, but you know, how far out are you, you know, as you, as you start to create this stuff?

Kieran Drew: I’m a huge fan of batching. I think the hardest part about social media is feeling like you’re on a treadmill. And so I’m always at least a week ahead with my content. Now I’ll tell you what I’m doing, but it’s different from what I advise people starting out. But I’ll explain why I started the newsletter first. So the reason being that I think the problem with social media content is people are thinking quantity is the answer, right? Just volume, volume, volume, volume. And so they don’t put that much time into it. And the problem with that is chat GPT can now do that. And I think if we don’t know it now, I think in two years time, the people that are focused on quantity are going to have a lot of problems. 

So I like to do the newsletter first, because if I can spend, I just usually send one weekly newsletter, about 1500 words. But if I can spend 10 hours on that, I can get a full week’s worth of content. That’s really refined, really concise, and, you know, distribute that as social media content. And that takes an extra half an hour to turn it into the posts for the week ahead. Um, most people probably shouldn’t be spending 10 hours on a newsletter. And so if you’re just getting started on social media, so what I always say is like, let’s batch write the process. So for me, it’s always first drafts, Monday, second drafts, Tuesday, third drafts and scheduling on a Wednesday. Um, but I would just suggest people doing that with social media content, a couple of long form pieces and the short form there as well. You kind of, for me, I mean, I’ve got, I’ve probably got about 200 posts scheduled out already because what we also do is if anything performs well. My VA will actually schedule that again in four to six months time automatically. And she also sends it to me and says, Hey, you know, this post did well. And so I’ll quickly turn it into five more posts that removes a lot of mental friction. Instead of me going, what am I writing about? If so, if I see a post that says, Oh, this one on systems did well, I might write five different posts about what I like about systems, how I built my first systems, my commercial automations, and we’ll go schedule that out over a month or two. The reason why I say this is because, um, what happens now with my social media stuff is that I don’t have to, it’s just happening. It’s in terms of time, honestly, it’s probably about half an hour a week. And ironically in that week, I get more followers than I get in my entire first year. So it’s that compounding game.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. That’s crazy.

Kieran Drew: So it’s all like compounding, right? So it all kind of adds up slowly, but it’s that initial friction is horrible.

Rob Marsh: Another question related to this, what are the tools that you’re using as you schedule it that, you know, help you do this better?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, sure. So I’ll kind of run you through the funnel, I guess, and talk through the software if that helps. So I post on X and LinkedIn with hype theory. And we also screenshot that with a tweet, pick and put it on Instagram. And when I say we, all I do is write on a notion. So, um, originally when, when I, when I started, I was doing my writing on Google docs and I was replying to emails and Gmail and I was doing all like, it was, it was absolutely chaos. And so what I did was I built my full business on notion. So the only thing I use is notion and my VA and my girlfriend, they’re sort of trained to take everything away from that. So I write something on Notion. We use HypeFury to schedule that out. So my posts, I’m never writing live. My stuff is just ticking away in the background. When the post gets to like 200 likes, HypeFury will auto plug my newsletter landing page, usually with a lead magnet. So someone will sign up with ConvertKit. Beehive is another popular choice, particularly for beginners. I like ConvertKit because of the business side of things. With ConvertKit, they’ll get a nine day welcome sequence, pitching the product and just giving value and pointing towards my favorite podcast episodes.  I use Thrivecart for the product. If they do buy with Thrivecart, there’s two upsells, my old product, which is the swipe file. And then my MRR product, which is a bit more of like breaking down copywriting with content. If they purchase any of them. There’s 30 days of emails scheduled afterwards. Again, just providing value, checking in how are things? And so the bit that really excites me now is that a thirty second tweet is potentially 20, 30 hours of value plus  thousands of dollars in LTV. And that’s the one reason that we’re at 750 K when it’s just me and my girlfriend and VA doing a couple hours a week, because the robots are doing all the work. And I just think people don’t spend enough time on process. It’s so easy to get into that trap of busy work when what I did a long time ago was setting aside three hours a week for this stuff. And so I looked at everything I was doing and just kept asking,  can we automate, can we delegate, can we eliminate or can we systemize? And so everything has SOPs, everything has routine and  it’s just got rid of so much friction,  which I think is the big problem.

Kira Hug: So you’re kind of going more, you’re not going all in on X cause you’re on LinkedIn as well, but like, how do you, how do you pay attention to those platforms so that you can make smart decisions moving forward as algorithms change and just products change? Like, are you evaluating them on a regular basis to see if it’s worth sticking around?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, I am actually. team not paying to the algorithms so much. Uh, I used to a lot. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s kind of like outsourcing your happiness. Um, and you’re at the mercy of, of changes, right? These fluctuations and trends kind of come and go the algorithm ebbs and flows. And the one thing that doesn’t change is people. And so that’s why I’ve always been focused on good writing. So I’m actually. moving away from the whole social media is the main focus. Um, the way that I’m looking at it now is that the email is the product. If you can build a very good newsletter, have a system to redistribute it. Um, and then you have to have faith that quality shines through because it’s quite easy to get sucked into that chasing the algorithm game. And what happens is there’s a concept I’ve been thinking about, about incentive drags, where if you, if you’re constantly chasing the algorithm, Your ideas begin to sound like everyone else’s. So if you go on LinkedIn now, there’s like a million LinkedIn people, LinkedIn experts selling LinkedIn. That’s incentive track. And I actually, I looked at my, uh, my first blog posts from 2020 to do the whole meme of see how much your writing sucked. And it was a big kick in the teeth because I was like, your writing suck, but your ideas were really good. And I was looking at my social media content and I was like, This has gone wrong somewhere and it was because of the algorithm. And so I’ve actually stopped looking at that stuff. I think you just have to have faith over time. So there’s still, but the packaging is kind of second nature for me. You need a good hook. Um, but otherwise, yeah, I try not to pay attention to it.

Rob Marsh: So what else are you building? Uh, what’s, what’s coming next as you work on, you know, move away from, you know, the social media more into your email. Are you building additional products? You know, what, what are you working on?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, so we just finished launching high impact writing, but I really like over delivery. I just think it’s a lot of fun to do for people. So for the next month, I’m building out more stuff for the course. Uh, so I want to build a summary version, like a 40 minute version of the course, uh, maybe make it a podcast version, do loads of overshort of the writing sessions. I just want people to have this thing where when they pay me money, they’re like, holy shit, this is, this is the real deal. We then got the MRR, which at the moment, the churn isn’t too good. So it’s 21%. I’ve been too busy to try to address that. So I need to slow down and actually work out what, what I’m doing wrong there. After that may, um, I wanted to build what people have been screaming out for me in terms of my customers, which is the email version of the course. Uh, there’s just been a very good response about the way I like to write. Um, and I did again. I’ve taken so many email courses and it’s all pieced together. And like, I learned most of my stuff from copywriters, who are brilliant email storytellers, but a lot of entrepreneurs, especially social media stuff, they don’t do it that well. So I was thinking about building out high impact emails, which, you know, carry on the product repertoire once that’s done. And this is the bit I’m really excited for. I’m just obsessed with doing one thing. Well, and I think if I look back at the journey, it’s just been a series of trying to shake off the baggage. And so once we’ve got two products and an MRR, um, I just want to write the newsletter. I want to see what happens when you put 30 hours into a piece instead of 10. Uh, there’s a, there’s a brilliant post, um, on Michael, Michael Simmons called the blockbuster principle. I don’t know if you guys have seen it. Um, it’s a great read. It’s just, it’s, it’s this, I think for a prediction for the internet, there is a swelling sea of increasing noise and. Whilst the information is becoming infinite, attention has stayed the same, right? We’ve only got the same, however many hours you actually go on your phone. I think in three to five years, there’s going to be a big crisis of quality. And I want to make sure I’m on the right side of that. I want to be. Um, and so I just want to write my newsletter. I want to do 34 hours, 30, 40 hours, just on the newsletter and social media content, driving traffic to it. Uh, because. I would love to write books and stuff. And I think this will be the next step where it’s just trying to find your ideas. I don’t know what I’d write about, but it’s kind of hard to tell when you’re just writing about writing and marketing. I want to get into more of the philosophy side, the stuff that interested me in the first place.

Kira Hug: And when you say 10 hours, spending 10 hours on your newsletter and you want to increase it to 30 hours, can you just break that down real quick for me? Cause I think if I spend four or six hours, I’m like, that’s a lot of time. So what are you doing with 30 hours?

Kieran Drew: Yeah, well, I don’t know what I’ll do with 30 right now.

Kira Hug: Or let’s say the 10 hours specifically. Yeah.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. So 10 hours, um, for one, I like, I love editing. I’m not a great writer. Uh, I’m not probably a great editor, but it’s the other thing that I like, like trying to come up with really concise, entertaining ways to say it. Um, for me, one of my metrics or one of the reasons I want people to read, uh, is frameworks. So inside that sort of 10 hours, I’m trying to think of frameworks or cool ways to present ideas that they haven’t heard before. Um, because, you know, good content is like novelty. Right. And unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, I don’t really read any like trends or timely content, which is like a sin, uh, for the most part, but I figured, well, if you’re not doing that, can you start to frame timeless concepts in new ways? So I spent an hour or two sort of again, thinking about that, usually walking. And then the actual writing, drafting, redrafting process, and then turning it into social media content at the end. So I say 10 hours. It probably would be more like between six to 10. Uh, sometimes they go into like 2000 words. And, uh, one of my rulers is you have to delete 33%, one third rule. And that’s quite fun as well, because it really makes you kill your darlings. Um, so yeah, when it comes to 30 hours, I don’t know what that would look like. I think either it would be two emails per week for one. Or really well researched. Uh, because my, my big mistake, and I think a lot of people’s mistakes with this stuff is clarity. You, you think, you know, that the reader knows what you mean, but that curse of knowledge, that gap is, is a killer. Right. And I think spending more time on stuff would help you give more examples, more metaphors, more analogies, try to change how people think a bit more. So.

Rob Marsh: Kieran, you mentioned that you read three hours a day. This is kind of maybe a two or a three part question, but what do you spend your time reading? What are your two or three highest recommended books? And what are you reading today? Like, what is the book today?

Kieran Drew: OK. So what was the first part again?

Rob Marsh: So what, well, what kinds of books are you typically reading? You know, what, what are the categories?

Kieran Drew: So I split this into three. The only way I can read three hours a day is to treat it like TV. I flick through books quite a bit. So I tried to have one book, which is practical, which is usually business or copywriting or marketing. Once I start getting bored there, I move more into  the philosophy mindset sort of stuff. So I’ll go through the ones I’m reading in a moment. And then the third book is always my favorite. And that’s fantasy. I am a sucker for dragons and stuff. So I’ve been reading it since I was like six. It’s just very nostalgic for me.

So that’s how I finish my day. It’s like a three hour thing. It’s first book for an hour, second book, and then the third book at the end.

Top two or three books? For your audience, Breakthrough Advertising. Maybe not only if you’re a complete beginner, but my God, every time I read that book, I’m like, this is it. This is everything you need for writing, marketing, and creating content online. I find it very, very insightful. 

The book that probably changed my life the most, I should have a few. There’s one called The Almanack of Naval Ravakan. He’s the guy that is all about ideas. That’s all I’ve been doing. I listened to him every three months. I just do what he says. It works. I’m a huge fan of Charlie Munger.

Rob Marsh: I’ll break in to mention Naval’s book—it’s like $2 on Kindle. Everybody should own that book. Even if you’re only going to read three or four lines in it today, you almost come away with something every single time.

Kieran Drew: Yeah. It’s, for me, it’s word for word, the most insights per book, per page. So that’s really good. Like I was saying,  Poor Charlie’s Almanack, a lot of almanacs, but that’s Charlie Munger’s book. I find that really insightful as well. And then you asked what I was reading at the moment. So I’m reading The Status Game by Will Store. So I’ve got that here. I find evolutionary psychology really interesting. I think if you could understand where we’ve come from, it makes a lot of stuff helpful. Now I’m reading Mastery by Robert Greene. Which again, I love Robert Greene. It just took me a year to finish tDI04.rKiS-sOoj8WJtwFcYOusjDFP92vwhah9HN4G-CN36GQ&dib_tag=se&keywords=laws+of+human+nature+robert+greene&qid=1712616259&s=books&sprefix=the+laws+of+hu%252Cstripbooks%252C163&sr=1-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=f91e1c4aaa1bc375704bb8848624cb40&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Laws of Human Nature. Like it’s just as big storytelling. And then I’m reading, for the second time, Perennial Seller by Ryan Holiday. Strangely, the first time I read it, I didn’t get it. I didn’t understand the point about timeless content and building stuff that lasts forever. But now that I’ve spent two years building and building, it’s like play longer term games. And so I’m reading it and I’m highlighting everything.

Rob Marsh: Mastery and Perennial Seller are both among my favorites. I love both of those books. They’re fantastic. I agree. Perennial Seller, I actually shared this recently on LinkedIn, but this is one of those books that’s not about copywriting, that’s absolutely about copywriting, timeless content, and creating an offer that stands the test of time, which is what we’re all trying to do with copy.

Kieran Drew: It really is on point with me because I found a thread from James Clear. Obviously he writes about habits usually, but there was a thread in 2020, which was about his decade long business. One of his tweets, it was just two lines, and it was like: Only create timeless content. The runway is longer for success. And I was like, damn, the problem is that most people keep getting told you have to write about timely stuff, be on topic and be on trends and which works  in the instant, the first instance, but where are you in 10 years? And I think I would rather make less money or get less attention if it meant I was building a body of work that I’ve changed about two posts a week for three years. So I would love to do something like that, but you can’t play both games.

Kira Hug: Amazing. Well, you’ve given me a lot to think about in terms of the content I’m creating and thinking about creating. So thank you so much for giving us your time and sharing so openly with us. We really appreciate it.

Rob Marsh: If people have been listening, they’re like, I got to get into Kieran’s world… where do they go to find you on Twitter… or what you might be posting on LinkedIn… find your course… all the things.

Kieran Drew: Yeah, kierandrew.com. That’s where I’ve got my newsletter sign up and then you’ll find your way around or it’s Kieran Drew—that’s my LinkedIn as well, but definitely my Twitter (X). Primarily on X or my newsletter.

Rob Marsh: Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time.

That’s the end of our interview with Kieran Drew. If you’re like Kira and me, you’re probably buzzing with a bunch of ideas that you want to try out in your own business or on your social media. Lots of things that Kieran shared have me excited. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation, as I always do, so you’ve got a couple more things to think about as you apply these ideas in your own business. 

I want to revisit The Blockbuster Principle that Kieran mentioned. You can find an article on LinkedIn by Michael Simmons, where he outlines The Blockbuster Principle. We will link to that in the show notes, but it’s really built on the idea that Chris Anderson came up with maybe 15, 18 years ago. And that’s the long tail and the head. And the idea is that  towards the head, more people see that content and it’s more popular, makes more money, but that there’s this amazing long tail and people find the content that resonates with them as you move down the tail. And there’s an audience for all of that. And What Michael Simmons argues with the blockbuster principle is that that’s not really the case, that the head, this glut of the most popular, the biggest items, the things that people find is getting bigger and the tail is actually getting smaller. 

And when Kieran mentioned the information is trending to infinite, but attention is staying the same. What that means is if you’re not creating content that’s in the head, that’s some of the most popular that people are sharing and resonating with, nobody’s going to see it. It will get lost. And another part of the blockbuster principle is that it lasts. Kieran mentioned Perennial Seller, the book, which is really about the idea of creating content that lasts forever, whether that’s literature or music or whatever. But you need to be shooting for creating amazing content that lives in the head. And that is not easy to do.

Michael Simmons talks about a little bit how to do that in that article. And like I said, I will link to that in the show notes. So look for that. 

Kieran also mentioned that when we were talking about how he launched and was willing to leave a sure thing to move out of dentistry and into copywriting, he talked a little bit about fear being a motivator and how it keeps you trying. I love that Kieran set a realistic deadline for his business, he needed a result within two years. So 24 months out, if he keeps failing, maybe he goes back to dentistry, maybe he tries something different. And it literally took him 24 months to get to $10,000, which is a very long time, 13 months to make that very first dollar. Now, most people who may be listening to the podcast, maybe this is you… if we’re starting a copywriting business, most of us don’t have 13 months to make a single dollar. And we don’t have two years to get to the point where we’ve built a business that’s actually working for us. So sometimes it has to happen faster, or sometimes you have to hang on to that permanent job, that full-time job as you build on the side in order to create something that will work. Kieran obviously had this opportunity where he had some money saved and he could make it work. But if you are motivated by fear, that often gets you going and will help you find that success, maybe a little bit faster than Kieran did.

Another thing to keep in mind is Kieran is building products and wasn’t working with as many clients. And it’s often easier because you’re selling your service, you’re selling your time in a client facing business to find those clients more quickly, to get a decent pipeline running, whether you’re out there pitching, you’re starting to attract clients back to you, getting referrals… it generally can happen a lot faster than that 24 months that Kieran talked about. But if you’re building products, 24 months is not an unrealistic timeline. Even Kira and I, when we launched The Copywriter Club, it was six months before we launched our very first product and made any money. And before that, there was a lot of investment in time and energy and even money in the podcast and in the Facebook group and all of that stuff. And of course, that entire process is what builds confidence. As Kieran mentioned, you probably don’t start with that confidence, but it does grow as you build, as you try things, as you gain experience, you become more confident and able to deliver on whatever it is that you’re trying to create. 

Kieran also talked a little bit about building around your energy. He mentioned waking up early. I think he said six o’clock, doing two 90 minute blocks of writing time in the morning, two 90 minute blocks of writing time in the afternoon, using his morning for those high leverage activities and the afternoon for maybe more lower leverage activities. He’s doing deep work. And so he’s turning off social media for the first eight hours of his day. All of this is amazing.

This actually reminds me of our interview with Amanda Goetz a little while ago where she talked about her processes of getting things done, a very similar process. They’re similar, but they’re very different in how they’re spending their time and how they’re executing. And I guess really my point here isn’t: hey, you need to adopt Kieran’s process or you need to adopt Amanda’s process. It’s you need to adopt your process. You need to figure out what works for you. And I’ve said in the past, you know, I don’t find that my best writing happens early in the morning. and oftentimes it takes me a little bit of time to get up and running. Sometimes I hit that deep work or that flow state in the afternoon and I can keep going well into the evening. Whatever works for you, find the process and then block out time for it, make it work. 

So if you have to work around kids, then work around the kids, work at night, or if you’re working around a full-time job, then do that, but find the process that works for you so that you’re not reinventing your schedule every single week. And I think this is a challenge for many of us. 

Finally, just want to mention, it’s sort of a theme of a couple of the last few episodes… Kieran talked about rebuilding a version of his course and shaking off the baggage and creating new elements that are intended to wow his buyers and his customers so that he gets the reaction, “holy crap, this stuff is good, right?” This is all about engineering the client experience. We talked about this a bit last week and the week before with Jason Friedman went really deep on this. But again, engineering this customer experience, the client experience that we’re creating for the people that we work with is the kind of thing that pays off long-term with additional referrals, additional opportunities to work, attracting new clients to our business. So a little bit of a theme that I’m seeing over the last couple of episodes and maybe that’s a sign that I need to be working on my client experience Maybe you’re feeling the same thing. 

I want to thank Kieran Drew for joining us to chat about growing a social media presence, his newsletter, his business, and so much more. You can find Kieran on Twitter at It’s Kieran Drew. And that’s K-I-E-R-A-N-D-R-E-W. Or visit his website, kierandrew.com. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast. The intro music was composed by copywriter and songwriter Addison Rice. The outro was composed by copywriter and songwriter David Muntner. 

If you’ve enjoyed what you’ve heard, please leave us a review. Let us know what you think, or email us and tell us what you think, whether you’ve got an idea that you want to implement in your own business, or maybe you want to share this episode with somebody else that you know that it might help out. 

I feel like we’ve had some really good episodes lately, and a lot of them are worth sharing with other people. So if you feel inclined, please do that. Let others know that Copywriter Club podcast is out there. We’d love to hear from you. Thanks for listening, and we will see you next week.

You’ve heard the saying: slow and steady wins the race. Well, that’s exactly the approach our guest for the 389th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast built her business. Today we’re talking with copywriter Kim Kiel about getting better month and month, and year after year—and not getting caught up in the hustle. And we covered a lot more. You’ll want to tune in for this one. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: I love stories about copywriters and other freelancers who find amazing success right out of the gate. They’re working with great, high-paying clients on big assignments almost from day one. Those stories illustrate what’s possible to those of us who are just beginning the journey. But, those are the exceptions that prove the rule. Very few copywriters hit a home run on their first at bat, or even their second or third. For them, slow and steady wins the race.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and brand voice expert Kim Kiel. Kim’s business growth is the perfect example of the slow and steady copywriter business—getting a bit better every year by charging a bit more, upleveling clients as she gained experience and not getting caught up in the rush to hustle. We talked to Kim about that as well as her unicorn client, her take on the nine word email and why she always follows up every pitch.

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Kim.

Kira Hug: All right, Kim, let’s kick off with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Kim Kiel: Well, uh, I got us to tell you, I’m having kind of like a full circle moment because it was about five or six years ago that I was in my kitchen, you know, but bubbling around doing whatever I had to do and listening to The Copywriter Club Podcast and hearing Joel Kletcke, Tarzan Kay, early Justin Blackman talking about this field of copywriting and how they had some really good successes. And it was right around that time that I was needing to find another way to work because I had a day job. In the nonprofit sector, I worked in charity for a couple of decades as a fundraiser, fundraising copywriter, front line communications. And that sort of daily commute and the schedule with the kids, school schedules wasn’t working anymore. And so I needed to make a shift. And so I discovered the Copywriter Club at the same time as I kind of discovered this whole online world of business. The people I heard speaking on your podcast gave me a lot of hope and possibility. And for me to be sitting here now recording on this podcast, like I feel like I’ve made it, like I’m having my little Sally Field moment. So that’s sort of a very…

Rob Marsh: It’s really nice of you to say, and it’s just really gratifying to hear that. Like, you’re not the first person to say it. It makes us feel good. So thank you for saying that, even though you didn’t have to.

Kim Kiel: Well, it’s 100% true.

Rob Marsh: Okay, well, yeah, let’s talk about how you took that early desire and turned it into a functioning business.

Kim Kiel: Sure. So after I discovered this whole online world of business and I discovered the field of copywriting, which I had already been doing, but I didn’t know that’s what you called it. Then I decided to go all in on it and I quit my day job and my first client was actually that employer. So that was sort of how I made the shift from working a day job into becoming a freelancer and becoming self-employed. And as I opened up more time in my calendar, I leveraged some of my older relationships, they would hire me to do smaller projects. And then I joined some different communities. 

So I joined Copy School. I joined your community, The Copywriter Underground. I joined B-School. And in there, I found all these other online entrepreneurs who are doing stuff. And I both used them for inspiration, but also many of them became my clients. And so when I was in those other communities learning about online business, joining masterminds, those other women would actually hire me to write for them because I was one of the only copywriters in the group. But even though I had like a decade and a half of experience writing, I still had so much self doubt, still questioned whether I could actually do this thing called copywriting. So joining some of the copywriter programs really gave me the confidence that I needed and maybe a little badge to make me feel like, okay, yeah, I can do this. And made me feel more comfortable when people would come to me. I could speak confidently that I knew what I was talking about.

Kira Hug: Okay, so many questions for you. Let’s start with leveraging older relationships, which seems obvious, but that’s something I feel like is still untapped for many of us. I even feel like it’s untapped for me. I have a lot of relationships, and how often am I going back and leveraging or warming them up? What does that look like for you, and what does it look like today if it’s changed?

Kim Kiel: Yeah, so I still generally have a long follow-up game. In the beginning, it was sort of reaching out to my personal networks and saying, hey, I’m quitting my job. I’m becoming a copywriter. This is what a copywriter is, because nobody at that time knew what a copywriter was. AI has kind of changed that a bit. And as I reached out to those people, they would know people, and they’d be able to make referrals to me. I got a lot of referrals from people within the copywriting community who would throw me the odd contract, and even if I didn’t land it right away, I would still follow up a couple weeks later, a couple months later, even a year later, just kind of like a, hey, how’s it going? And that is something that I still do today with my past clients and with people who I’ve had sales calls like a year and a half ago, they will come back. And it’s that sort of constantly staying on their radar that I think has really helped me to get repeat business and to get additional referrals because as they are going about their business, they see your name pop up in the inbox and they know somebody in their community is looking for a copywriter. They will connect me to that person. So it’s that sort of gentle, hey, how’s it going, thinking about you, and it always seems to work out.

Rob Marsh: And like Kira said, I think this is really untapped for a lot of us. And so I kind of want to probe here just a little bit. As you were going out on your own, that first, your former employer that became your client, what did that conversation look like? And I’m almost asking you here for a script, because I’m thinking there have got to be other people listening who are thinking, well, I could turn my employer into my first client if I went out. So tell us. How did you approach your boss or whoever you needed to talk to and what did that conversation sound like?

Kim Kiel: Well, I guess I was pretty lucky because they didn’t want to lose me. I had to quit to accommodate my family’s needs at the time. And they said, how can we keep you? What can we do to keep you? And I was able to then create a smaller package or carved off a part of my job that I really liked and I knew I could do remotely. And I said, well, how about I just manage all the grants, the grant fundraising grants, as opposed to doing all of the other fundraising that I was doing at the time. And so by saying like, I can do this portion for you, and I’ll just slot right in, I’ll keep working on it. And it was attractive to them because A, they had already known me, they knew how well I worked, they knew I would be able to deliver. And so it was honestly an easy yes for them. If I were to do it again, I, I have made similar pitches to employers in the past, like say where I wanted to move and work remotely. This was pre-pandemic, like 10, 15 years ago. But it’s still coming to them with a solution fully mapped out and say, these are the things that I’m going to do for you. This is what it’s going to cost. I can work remotely. I can do this totally independent. And I’ll just keep this going for you. So I think it’s identifying a need and showing how you can just slot right into their team without it being more headache and more money for them.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I think that’s the key is the solution piece, like whether it’s a warm relationship or cold relationship, it’s like come to the table with a solution rather than just targeting the problem. You mentioned self-doubt, fear, you know, that’s something we can all relate to, and it creeps up at different times. Like for you, you had all this experience, but it still crept up because you were going into a new business. I think for copywriters, it can creep up at different stages in their business. So what else could help you, knowing, what else helped you or maybe even helps you now beyond the courses? Because I agree, like courses, education, getting that badge does matter, but what else has helped you?

Kim Kiel: Uh, it is, it’s a constant battle. I still like on the weekly have like, Oh my gosh, I should burn down my business. Nobody loves me. Oh, look at so-and-so their podcast has so many more downloads than I do. Look at, they’re getting all these accolades. And I’m like here, just like chugging along quietly in the background and filled with self-doubt. When I have those moments of self-doubt, I reach out to my, like my squad. Like I have some Voxer friends who I’m like, guys, I’m, I’m spiraling. I feel like crap and they’ll come in and they’ll be like, no, you’re good. You’re awesome. And it’s like just having that hype squad is so helpful. And then also having, you know, I’m part of some more intimate business masterminds and having a coach who’s able to see what you’ve accomplished over the last year and remind you Well, didn’t you just land that sales? Didn’t you just land that client? Didn’t that client have an amazing launch? Like they’re able to reflect back to me what I maybe can’t see for the moment. So it’s a constant practice, but I think it’s really having other people around you to help cheerlead you on and make you feel less alone. I think that’s a big part of it.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love that. That’s something that we’ve seen. Like you mentioned the underground earlier, we’ve seen that in our groups and our mastermind. And even sometimes just having Kira there to say, hey, yeah, that was actually pretty good or vice versa.

Kira Hug: I thought I brought you down. I didn’t think I brought you up.

Rob Marsh: You didn’t bring me up. It was interesting. We had a sales page that we used for a promotion a week or two ago, and somebody emailed saying, this is the best sales page ever written. Actually, they posted on LinkedIn. And Kira wrote it. I’m like, that kind of stuff is awesome. So maybe this is an opportunity to encourage everybody who’s listening to reach out to somebody who you admire, who you think is doing a great job, and just say, you’re fantastic, and you’re killing it. Because you’re right. I think a lot of us feel like we’re not killing it day to day. or even making it sometimes, and that can be hard.

Kim Kiel: Mm-hmm. And I’m pretty lucky. I have a very super tiny email list, but there’s a few people on there who are copywriters and pretty well-known copywriters. And they will often reach out and say, this was a great email. You know, yours are the only emails that I read. And I get a lot of emails. And so hearing that from people who I admire and highly respect is super gratifying. And I guess sometimes I just have to remind myself that, oh, yeah, I’m actually OK at this thing.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I love those emails are amazing when they come in. Okay, so I want to also ask you, while we’re talking about this, you know, the hype squad, whatever, you mentioned that you often get referrals from copywriters, maybe it’s not often, but you do get these referrals. And there’s so much follow up. Let’s talk a little bit about that follow up game. Because again, this is another place where I think it’s really easy to get discouraged. Obviously, we don’t want to be spamming people who are not interested in our businesses and in getting help from us. But there is a lot of power in following up and being there at the right time. So let’s go a little deeper there too.

Kim Kiel: Sure. What really changed my perspective on follow-up was, I don’t even remember where I was or where she shared it, but Denise Duffield Thomas, the money coach, she shared one time that her team doesn’t even respond to pitches or to potential prospective clients unless they have followed up two or three times to show that they’re actually interested in working with them. And so when I heard her say that, you know, the bar for actually getting an interview with us is that you have to follow up two or three times, like that totally changed my perspective. It made me feel like, OK, well, I’m going to do that. And so often people will book a call with me. I’ll have that call. Maybe it won’t be a right fit at that time. Maybe they’ll decide to go with someone a little bit cheaper. And I will still, in about a month after that, send an email. Hey, I was just thinking about you. I’m looking at my calendar. Do you have any copywriting needs? If you do, give me a shout. It’s happened so often where people have chosen someone else and then months, even a year later, they’ll come to me and it’s just that sort of, it’s an inoffensive gentle nudge. It’s almost like I send that nine word email every so often just to kind of touch base and it’s a friendly hey, it’s not like a hard pitch. It’s just, I’m thinking about you. We had that sales call. Do you still need help? Did you get it all sorted out? It’s really coming from a place of service and it’s really served me in the long run. People who I’ve followed up with will come back to me a year, a year and a half, even two years, two years after that initial sales call.

Kira Hug: Yeah. And sometimes it’s still, it’s a long game. Yeah, very long. And it’s not a matter of them hiring someone else. Sometimes it is. Sometimes they decide not to hire anyone and just kind of sit with the problem longer. And then a year later, they’re like, OK, the problem’s worse. We need to work together. What else would you recommend? Knowing that, again, it’s been a rough year for many writers and many are struggling, not all are struggling, what has worked for you more recently that you would recommend to copywriters if they’re struggling just to get projects in the door and grow and they’re thinking about, I can’t do this, this isn’t working anymore?

Kim Kiel: Yeah, 2023 did a real number on me, just like it did for so many. I had huge financial goals for last year, and I didn’t even come close. My revenue dropped back to 2021 revenue levels, so it was tough. What I did find towards the end was offering really quick turnaround services. VIP days, power strategy sessions, small service, small bites, audits, things like that, that sort of helped people say yes to this small amount that could help them move the needle just a little bit, even if they weren’t able to invest in a larger project. But that quick turnaround, maybe sacrificing some of that research piece that we all love to do, but just trying to get in and create an instant shift. And that worked for new clients, but it also worked for going back to my repeat clients, so clients who I’d worked with in the past. I reached out, do you need your brand voice guide updated? How’s that email sequence working for you? Do you need any punch ups or additions to any of the copy projects that we’ve worked on in the past? And so I did get a few people coming back to me to update their brand voice guide, to redo a sequence and to hire me for a day and a half to do something. But those smaller bites seem to be more attractive.

Rob Marsh: And as you did that, is there something you’re doing differently in your pitch at all? You know, as you make that approach, are you having a conversation? Well, maybe you’re not ready for this bigger thing. Here’s something else to try. Or is it just you’ve just made the switch and your clients are none the wiser?

Kim Kiel: No, I think it’s still laying out. These are my top tier offers. And if that doesn’t work for you, here’s this quick hit. And everyone’s finances were a little bit tight last year, so that quick hit was nicer for their budgets as well. And the quick time frame was better for them as well. So they do know what my higher ticket offers are, but they would choose that lower level investment.

Rob Marsh: I love that you’re mentioning this because we’ve literally, I think, in the last two months probably had two or three other people say, hey, if you’re struggling, make it smaller, make it bite-sized, make it easier for a client to say yes. This isn’t really a question. I’m just sort of patting you on the back saying I feel like you’ve arrived at the same solution that so many other people who have figured this out have also arrived at.

Kim Kiel: And like, I’m so glad we’re having this conversation because it’s reminding me that that really worked towards the end of 2023. And so, uh, as we head into the slower seasons to maybe think about doing that again.

Kira Hug: Yeah. And I know we talked a little bit about, you know, self doubt and how that you’ve had your, your hype squad and that’s helped you, but how we are coming out of 2023 and I appreciate you sharing that it was a tough year for you. Um, Then how do you look at 2024? I know we’re already a quarter into it, but how do you plan ahead and think about the future and feel hopeful enough to get yourself focused and on track when you’re coming out of a tough year?

Kim Kiel: I do work with a coach, so I have somebody to bounce ideas off of, someone to reflect back to me what’s working. And in addition to my private one-on-one services that are sort of a more premium level, I also have a mid-tier offer, which is called the Joy of Copy Club, where business owners can come in and it’s sort of like a group copy coaching experience. And I’ve been having a hard time selling it. People are not wanting to join this group coaching program for whatever, maybe I’m not selling it right, whatever. But I’ve decided to then focus on what is selling. And right now what is selling is high ticket services. the people who held off on investing in 2023, whose launches tanked in 2023, they’re like, oh my gosh, we need to hire somebody to get this figured out for us. So I’ve had a number of people reach out to me and book me for their launches in early 2024. and I can see that that pattern is continuing. So I’m actually making a concerted effort to actually focus on my one-on-one services and get those booked out and sort of like let the copy club just sort of hang out in the background until I have more space to actually focus on filling that.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, as I listen to you talk about this stuff, Kim, it seems to me that you’re really good at the ebb and flow of business. You know, if this isn’t working, I’m going to try this. And before we started recording, in fact, the conversation that you and I had, you know, and we were saying, hey, you should come on the podcast to talk about this was really all about the slow and steady growth of a business. Oftentimes on the podcast, we talk to people who’ve had a pretty meteoric rise, you know, they made six figures in their first year, or, you know, they’ve, they’ve done something pretty amazing. And I think it’s also really important to hear that perspective of somebody who’s grown a little bit at a time a little bit more each year, and isn’t necessarily worried about huge gains or building a team, or so many of the other things that we often talk about, So with that ebb and flow, let’s talk just a little bit more about that slow growth model and how you’ve accomplished that almost year from year, how your business has changed and you’ve adapted things to make that work.

Kim Kiel: Sure. So I think because I came to online business and being self-employed and a freelancer, As a middle-aged person, like I was 42 when I started becoming a copywriter. I had a family, like my family was older but still young. I still had to, like that was my priority. So my business couldn’t, I couldn’t dedicate as much time to exponentially growing my business as maybe some other people who maybe are pre-kids might be able to. or on the other side of the spectrum whose kids are up and out who can then focus on exponentially growing their business or who have a spouse who looks after the whole household. I had that as a constraint in my life and my business so I had to sort of allow my business to support my family and still grow my business. 

I also would hear all the advice out there and then I would just take what I felt was meaningful to me and what I could do. So, you know, build a funnel, build a lead gen, do all this stuff. I didn’t want to do any of that. I didn’t want to set up a big text. I just set up my first funnel like three weeks ago. I have never had a full tech funnel set up. I run a very lean business with Google Docs, with a wave invoice. I’ve never had checkout pages before, so I just kept it very high touch, very simple, and not having those extra expenses for either a team or a tech stack to have to manage all that for me. I’ve had high profitability, but also it just makes it easier for me to then focus on just doing the work and not worrying about all these funnels and systems working for me. But I’ve just found different ways of keeping that engine going and chugging along and listening to the advice. and then deciding what fits with me and my lifestyle and my family. And fortunately, some things don’t work, but a lot of it has worked out. And I think one of the things that really helped me out over the last several years was I did have sort of a core retainer client. who I was able to work with for four years. And that was super helpful because it just provided that sort of steady, a baseline of steady revenue. 

And then I could add on these other clients and experiment with these other offers. I also think just having a little bit of life under my belt, I can come to these client conversations and sales calls and meet them as an equal. And it was never, I never have felt like, Oh, I’m subservient to the client or I’m lesser than the client. And I think the clients like that when you come to the sales calls, you show up on your kickoff calls with confidence and you know what you’re doing and they feel like they’re well taken care of. And I think that that’s been part of the reason why I’ve also been successful is because I know how to handle people and, uh, and yeah, just having some of that life experience goes a long way.

Kira Hug: So if you had a retainer for four years, that’s really impressive. It’s not easy to do that. Can you share what worked well, what you would encourage other writers to do if they’re setting up a retainer based off your experience?

Kim Kiel: I’ve experimented several times with different retainers, with different kinds of clients. And I mean, I’ve really had a unicorn client. She still is beautiful, but she doesn’t need that kind of service anymore. But she, from the get-go, was just someone who was beautiful to work with. She had me do a test project at the beginning. And I know that there are some people who shy away from wanting to do a test project. or give me a sample of your copywriting. But every time I’ve done it, it has resulted in tens of thousands of dollars. So I just want to say, don’t be afraid to do those test projects because they can turn into a really lucrative opportunity. And it also is a chance for me to try on that client. It works both ways. So with that particular client, we were able to really, over time, build out what that retainer would look like. I was writing Facebook ads for her. And so I would write sort of, it was almost like an accordion. 

Some months there’d be a lot of Facebook ads, sometimes there’d be less, but we had this mutual understanding that We would keep it at this rate to allow for that ebb and flow. With other clients, I have created a three to six month retainer engagement to focus on sales copy. Sometimes it crosses over into that almost an employee relationship where I need the sales page tomorrow. I need a stack of emails. And so I’ve had to learn from my own ways, like suck it up and just do it. But then going forward, being able to set some more strict boundaries around that. So now my retainers are quite clear. In terms of this is what I’m going to do for you on a monthly basis. And over the six months, we’ll work on these three large projects together. Large projects include X, Y and Z. And, you know, I’ll still throw in some bonuses here and there to surprise and delight the client and make them feel like they’re getting a really good value.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, so let’s talk a little bit about what those retainers look like. Because, you know, when we say, well, I’d like a three or six month retainer to do sales copy. How did you manage that, Evan Flo? Were you having meetings to talk about what was getting accomplished that month? Like, how was that all spelled out?

Kim Kiel: With the unicorn–amazing client, we worked pretty much in Slack. She would send me a creative brief, I would do it. Every few months we’d have a call, check in, how’s it going for you? Great. So she’s sort of the pinnacle. She ruined me for all other retainer clients. With my regular retainer clients, we have a monthly call to set the priority for the month. We agree. These are the projects that are coming up. These are the copy assets that we need. This is the timeline that we need. And from there, I would just sort of deliver that. Right now, my retainers, I have sort of two levels of retainer. One is four, four, four, four a month, just under 5,000. And it includes four nurture emails. It includes three major sales copy projects. over the course of the six months, which would be like a big launch. It would be optimizing or writing a sales page in a sales sequence. It might be doing a brand voice guide, or it might be rewriting their website. So it’s those big projects that we can condense into that six month. And then they get sort of a month to month, a few projects, like emails that we can write together. And then there’s a step down from that, which is still about 2,500 a month. And it’s four emails plus some, a mini, like a landing page or like a small, short email sequence. So something a little bit smaller.

Kira Hug: Okay. I love how you structured the six month one, because this is such a struggle. It’s just. how to think about the projects, and then the nurture, how it all works together. How do you hold your boundary with that, especially with launches? Because when you’re saying, OK, we do a launch project over the six months, I mean, that could be a $50,000 launch project really easily. So how do you manage that piece of it?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I make a lot of mistakes in terms of my own boundaries. Yes, I have, there are some late nights that I’m pulling to make sure the copy is done, but that repeatable revenue over the six months is so valuable to me and my peace of mind that I don’t mind. So, okay, May is gonna be really tough because this client is launching and this other client hired me to do something else. Like, oh no, I’m gonna have to put my head down at work, but I’m okay with that. I always feel like I have a choice and I always feel like I’m the one who got myself into this situation. And I just got to suck it up and do it and do it as best to the best of my ability. And then sort of going forward, I might say, well, that’s actually not scoped in or we already covered that. So there are some ways that if someone says, can you do this for me? I’ll say, yes. Would you like me to scope that into the retainer? I can send you a new invoice. So just kind of like. It’s more of I learn my lesson each time, and then just try to fix it going forward.

Kira Hug: And you’re probably a solid planner, right? You’re planning at the beginning of the six months, so you know when the launches and all those events are taking place, and there are no surprises. It’s all built and baked in. So you can manage your calendar, for the most part. I hear what you’re saying, like mistakes happen. And I appreciate you being honest about that. But I’m just thinking to control the calendar, you probably need that ahead of time.

Kim Kiel: I mean, I think the way I’ve structured the retainers now is because I’ve been in retainer relationships before where it was like, oh, I just decided to launch this new mini offer. I’m going to need a sales page and 12 emails. And it’s like, I didn’t have the structure around that or the ability to have the conversation at the time. So now I just have more clear boundaries as I go forward. And yes, those boundaries are going to be wishy-washy at times.

Rob Marsh: So Kim, one of the things that you mentioned as you were talking about the retainers and setting up your business is that you like to keep things high touch. And you won’t have heard this interview yet, but many of the listeners will have heard our interview with Jason Friedman, where we talked about customer experience and building a customer experience. So I’m curious what high touch means to you. Because when you say, well, I was keeping it simple, Wave Invoice and Google Docs, Somebody might argue, well, that’s not all that high touch. So clearly, there’s some personal communication or something else that’s going on here where you’re having a high touch experience. Tell us what exactly you do to make sure that those clients are thrilled with the work you do.

Kim Kiel: I think it starts from that sales call and how you show up on the sales call and how you follow up after that. So when I show up on the sales call, I spend a lot of time listening. I feed back to them what I’ve heard to make sure we’re on the same page. And then after the call a day, maybe two days, sometimes even three, like I’m not like super on it all the time, I’ll send it’s a simple Google Doc with a table that says these are the deliverables. This is the cost. This is the timeline. This is what we talked about. Do you want to move forward? And it’s often like, yep. No proposal, it’s because we’ve had that conversation. If there is further questioning or questions, then they’ll just email me back or we’ll hop on a second call to clarify that. 

In terms of how else I provide that high touch is for premium clients, they get my Voxer, they get my cell phone number, they can text me and message me anytime they want. Very few of them ever do. Because they’re at that high level of operating their businesses, they don’t actually reach out as much as you might think. And even if they did, I would wait 24 hours to respond in some cases, you know, like I just set my own boundaries for when I reply. If they do have a need where they’re like, oh my gosh, something came up, I know you need 48 hours to turn something around, can you get this done? I’ll often say yes, just because I want them to feel well supported in that experience. And then, you know, from time to time, I’ll send gifts. I’ll send little care packages, things to make them feel special and to show my appreciation. I’m not sure if I fully answered that for you, Rob, in terms of that high touch.

Rob Marsh: No, you did. In fact, I know as soon as you said, I give my cell phone number, allow them to text, vox me anytime, I’m guessing a bunch of people listening just went, oh my gosh, she’s crazy. But it also occurs to me that in doing that, you are creating a level of confidence with that particular client where, okay, I know she’s there for me. And like you said, they hardly ever take advantage of it. But that trust, that level of support that you add on, I think, That’s over and above what most copywriters would do, probably more than I would do. I’m not sure that I want my clients texting me anytime that they might feel the need. But on the other hand, I do want them to feel like they could and get that support. So I think I really like that, even though I sort of have mixed feelings about that whole idea.

Kim Kiel: And it’s very rare that anyone ever really texts me. Sometimes they’ll give me a voice note on WhatsApp or they’ll definitely voice note me on Voxer. But I really love hearing their voice and hearing the questions they ask because that is how I can write like them. because when they’re talking, then I can write like them, or they’ll say, I had this idea for a thing and blah, blah, blah, blah. It’s just easier for them to get it out on Voxer or WhatsApp than for, let’s hop on a meeting. Let’s talk about what we can write about in our emails this month. Like, just tell me some stories that happened to you, and then I’ll turn that into a series of emails. So I like providing it. The only times people have ever called me is if, like, they’re going to miss a meeting. Like, it’s really just as a courtesy.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, it’s a good way to avoid conflict, too, right? Where you don’t have a client sitting there fuming over some issue. They’re more likely to just text you or send you a voice memo if there’s something, so you’re aware of that. I probably won’t give out my phone number because I have a flip phone, and I just don’t. Texting is really hard. Like, it just is very physically hard to text on it. But I like it conceptually. Let’s talk about launching, because that’s your specialty, one of your many specialties. I also love that space. And I’m wondering what you’ve seen work recently. What isn’t working now with your clients and their launches? What is working? Any observations you’ve made over the last six months or so?

Kim Kiel: I think we can all agree that people are taking a lot longer to make decisions and that sort of five day challenge and into a high pit high ticket $2,000 sale isn’t working so well anymore. People are maybe coming into that and then maybe they’ll buy on the next round or the round after that. Uh, so allowing for a longer cart where someone can experience you a little bit more. Um, I took Brenda McGowan’s pre-launch plan program. training. And I mean, that was probably one of the best investments I made in my business last year, because it gave me so much structure into that six-week content before you get into the launch. And I have used it with a couple of clients. And they were seeing sales before their cart even opened which they hadn’t seen before. So last year they had really difficult sales and this year when we added in a pre-launch and we updated some of the sales emails, they did see a lift in their revenue and their sales. So I think that being more strategic with that pre-launch process, like hat tip to Brenna for owning that space. But I took the training from her, so now I can do it too, which I guess is another tip for any copywriter who’s listening is get certification and training in other areas that you can niche into because it is an additional service that I can add on. It’s a new product that I can serve, provide. So that longer window, what I know from other people in the launch space is that more of that personal touch. So as we’re talking about this high touch, even people who are launching are using either ManyChat or even Video Ask. They’re actually getting into people’s inboxes, onto their phones, into their DMs. That coach or the team is making that personal outreach. while the cart is open. So just adding an additional layer of touch to invite somebody in.

Rob Marsh: So I’m curious, with adding on services like a pre-launch plan, are you pitching that to clients? Or is that part of the discussion when a client comes to you and says, OK, I’m ready to do a launch? Is that when you lay this out and say, OK, the pre-launch is going to take us three to six weeks. It’s going to be x thousands of dollars. And then we’re going to set up all of the launch material. How does that discussion work? And I guess the reason I’m asking this is I’m wondering how much you’re using a consultant role here, where the client comes and says, hey, I need a sales page for this thing. And you say, hold on a second. Let’s back this up and make it work, which is really two different approaches to what we do.

Kim Kiel: With the client who I most recently worked with, it was very much, we need someone to rewrite our sales page and rewrite our sales emails because the emails are not converting, it’s crickets over here. And when I got in and I looked at that, I said, I see a big gap here in terms of your pre-launch strategy. We were so late in the game. They just reached out to me too late for me to actually do the plan and write the content for them. But I was able to basically sell them the plan and say, I’ll write the plan, but you’re just going to have to implement it on the fly. And they bought that add-on, basically. It was, hey, I see this as a gap. So it is more, you’re hiring me for a service, but I see a strategic gap, and I’m going to offer that to you. With this particular service, the pre-launch plan or like brand voice guides, I’ve been able to go back to past clients and say, hey, this is a new service I offer. It’s a brand voice guide. If you’re becoming a bottleneck in your business, I can help create the structure for you so that you can pass on that copy to your team, your outsourced copywriters. And because a lot of people have worked with me before, they know I am attuned to their voice, so they will say yes to that.

Kira Hug: How are you marketing yourself and how are you showing up? Like I know we’ve talked a little bit about networking and you have a really great referral network and community, but what else, if you are doing anything else to build visibility and authority?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I’m like the cobbler’s kid. I’m the worst. I feel like I’m the worst marketer in the world. I have the tiniest email list. I never had a funnel until a few weeks ago. Like, But I did launch a podcast about a year and a half ago, and it still has very small listenership, but the people who listen to it reply back to me and say, this is amazing. This is filling a gap. It’s very short form, bite-sized. It’s like one copywriting formula, one sales formula, one writing prompt, or sort of one theme. It’s really following the rule of one. Uh, and, uh, it’s a short form podcast that both copywriters and business owners are loving. Uh, but I really have two different audiences. So I have the sort of six to six figure $250,000 entrepreneur who wants to join the copy club or need some smaller ticket services. And then I have this seven, eight figure launcher who they aren’t listening. They aren’t consuming my content. Let’s be real. They’re not on my email list. They’re coming to me through referrals. But when they get the referral, I know they’re coming and checking out my website. I know they’re looking at my Instagram. I know that they’re going to probably go over to the podcast and take a peek. So I have active things there. Aside from the podcast, I really don’t create content or build my authority in any other way. I do host monthly marketing moments. So instead of having this complicated event, I just sort of have open office hours, or I’ll talk about how to write a welcome sequence. And I’ll throw open the doors to anyone who wants to come. And I’ll get copywriters. I’ll get business owners. And they come and hang out with me for two hours. Maybe I’ll make a pitch to join a program or share my services in the hopes that eventually when they’re ready, they’ll come to me or they’ll refer me.

Rob Marsh: Your podcast is called the Ill Communication Podcast. Is that right? Yeah, it’s called Ill Communicate. Tell us about the name. Why Ill?

Kim Kiel: I am a diehard Beastie Boys fan and one of their best albums is called Ill Communication and some of their songs reference it. So I like my original email like way back in the day was beastiegirlk at yahoo.com. So when I had the idea for a podcast I was like, it has to be called the Ill Communication Podcast. So like you can become the illest, the best, the raddest communicator when you listen to this podcast.

Rob Marsh: Okay. So why didn’t you lead off with Beastie Girl K? That should have been the introduction of the podcast.

Kim Kiel: I have to, I have to update my intros anyway, so maybe I’ll do that for the next one.

Rob Marsh: I think it’s hilarious.

Kira Hug: So, You know, listening to you in this conversation, you’re so intentional about what you’re doing. Like Rob said, you know, kind of how to zig and zag through business. And I just love the way that you approach growth and the craft. And I’m wondering like what you do to kind of cultivate the CEO mindset that you clearly have. And beyond coaching, you mentioned that. I think obviously we’re big believers in mentorship. But what else do you do? Is it like a weekly check-in, CEO check-in, something else?

Kim Kiel: I have an assistant who supports me in my business. She is another mom at the school, like I met her when my oldest kid was in kindergarten. We met in the hallway and she sort of started her online business at the same time that I did. And she would tell you I do not have a CEO mindset. Let’s bring her into this conversation. I know, right? I have a Trello board. I kind of follow it. She really keeps me on task in terms of like, these are the leads. These are who we’ve got to follow up, but have you followed up with that person? So she really helps me in that regard. I really try to stay in my zone of genius, which is like actually writing copy. And in terms of the outreach, I just know that I have to do it. And I know that it doesn’t have to be hard. It can just, just the other day, I Slack messaged a past client. I had delivered all of her copy by the end of the year. I messaged her saying, Hey, your launch looked like it went really well. Um, following up on the voice guide. Do you need any edits? How’s the website doing? And she wrote back. She’s like, I need to call with you. She booked a call the next morning. We hopped on a call and she bought an audit for $1,200. So like just that little reach out a friendly reach out. 

It doesn’t have to be so complicated and hard. I also know that when I focus on something like if I’m hosting a monthly marketing moment or next week I’m hosting a boot camp on writing your welcome sequence, I’m putting so much effort into that and I’m showing up on social and I’m creating content about it. and I know that the money isn’t going to come from that event. Someone else from left field is going to come and book a call and they’re going to hire me for a bigger package. So I just know that it doesn’t matter where I’m focusing my reach out efforts, just the fact that I’m in motion will attract that new client and I have to just be okay with the fact that even though I’m investing so much time and money into this dang bootcamp, someone’s going to come in from some other way, and I’m kind of okay with that. So I just really have a lot of faith that the universe is going to meet me where I am, but it is a constant everyday practice for me to stay in that positive mindset. And I do go down in the dumps, but that’s where my assistant or my squad will be like, hey, you’re actually doing okay. You’re surviving. You didn’t shut down your business like those other copywriters did. I think just sort of that trust and faith goes a long way.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I love that thinking. It feels a little woo, which I’m sure Rob loves as far as putting out energy here will help me receive in a different way. But like, I know it works. I know if I keep showing up and building momentum that I will be able to receive in other ways in my business rather than just freezing and not doing anything because this activity isn’t working over here. And I love that you said that because I think that’s a big part of business is just like keep trying, keep moving, keep just iterating and getting stuff done.

Kim Kiel: I know inside The Copywriter Underground right now, you’re doing the 25 hard, which I think is awesome. I love seeing the posts people are making in there. But I just know that like that kind of action, people are going to be pitching to those five people a week or whatever it is. And it might not be any of those five people who reach out or who close, it’ll be someone else, like It happened when I was a fundraiser. I’d be going and having conversations with major donors. I’d be writing grant applications for this, that and the other thing. And then a big donor would come out of left field. And it’s just knowing that it’s going to happen, but you can’t just sit back and be passive about it. You have to actually be in motion, take action and take smart action, too. Like, yes, you will get some people will buy tickets to the boot camp, but the big money is not going to come from there.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I mean, that echoes something I’ve been saying to copywriters for the last few months about how do you, how do you share, why you need to be sharing what you’re doing all the time because it does, it ripples out and it’s not always from your inner circle. Related to this, you have mentioned probably, well, if I went back and counted, it’s probably six or seven times, maybe it was more than that, but you’ve mentioned referrals at least that many times. Obviously, referrals are really important to your business. Part of getting referrals is doing great work and providing that high touch, but is there anything else that you do to encourage clients to give you referrals or you just let it happen organically?

Kim Kiel: I mean, I’ve tried reaching out and when I was in copy school, I think Jo had, or whatever it was called back in the day, she had like a template for how to ask for referrals. And I tried that template a few times and honestly, it never resulted in anything for me. Um, so I’m less focused on reminding clients to make referrals for me. And it’s more just about, Hey, thinking about you, how’s it going? Because they’re in communities with other people who need great copywriters. And so they talk to each other. And it’s those referral conversations. Those people are pre-sold by the time they get on the call with me. Like those are the easiest sales calls that I have is when someone’s on and they’re like, yeah, how much does it cost? Okay. Yeah. What are you going to do? Okay, great. I’m going to go talk to the CEO and then we’ll, we’ll sign off on this. And there. They’re pre-sold, so I love referrals. 

And when people make a referral for me, I send a beautiful gift. Sometimes I’ve sent a referral fee. I follow up. Even when someone makes a referral for me and it doesn’t land, I follow up and I say, oh, that one didn’t land. It wasn’t a great fit, but I really appreciated that you made that offer. Do you know anyone else who might need this new pre-launch service that I’m offering, where I’m now offering brand voice guides? It’s just being in the orbit as opposed to being really strategic. I think that’s kind of the answer to your question, a long-winded way to answer it.

Kira Hug: As we start to wrap up, I want to hear about what’s next for you as you’re thinking about the future of, well, I mean, in the way in parallel, like the future of copywriting and marketing alongside the future of your business and how you see the two

Kim Kiel: One of the things I’m really passionate about is helping women find their voices and helping women have confidence to ask for the sale. In writing or on a sales call, but mostly in writing because that’s my medium. So through the podcast, I really want to have a huge impact. And through the Joy of Copy Club, I know I can help a lot of women business owners find that voice, develop the momentum. Like writing sales copy isn’t that hard. when you know the frameworks and the formulas and the process and for someone who is running a very small boutique consultancy maybe can’t hire a high-end copywriter like you can do it yourself and so I really would love to see my platform expand so that I can serve more of that that group of entrepreneurs who’s kind of not at that seven figure level, not at the newbie level, but like in this middle ground where you have so much expertise, but you just don’t know how to share it in a way that’s going to connect and compel and get the sale. And so for me, I’m very impact driven. So that’s really where I would love to see my business go is expanding that impact and reach. I still see myself delivering one-on-one services, but I also choose those clients because they’re working with the same audience as me. So they’re serving women to help them improve their lives, to gain more authority, to get more wealth into their lives. So it’s really an impact play, and yes, I like money too.

Rob Marsh: This is probably related to that question, but what advice would you have for anybody who’s listening who would like to take a similar path, slow growth, consistent growth over time, not worrying too much about, you know, hitting six figures that first year, whatever that looks like, or maybe this is even advice to a younger you, you know, what would you do a little bit differently to make it work?

Kim Kiel: I mean, the only thing I would do differently was I would have started sooner. I would have not looked at online business for two or three years before I actually pulled the trigger. I would have left sooner. And I think if you do great work, if you are a great human and you do great work and you deliver on time, that that already puts you ahead of the game. Delivering quality work on time is such a low bar, but it seems to be a low bar. And if you can do that, you’re already ahead of the game. And I just really think it is slow and steady. It is just put your foot forward. Some people like to sprint, but I’m not a sprinter. I just want to take a step forward, watch a little Netflix, take another step forward, do a little reach out. Yes, I could grow faster. Potentially, I could grow faster, but at what cost? We’ve seen so many people Like downsize their teams in the last year, the last two years, huge coaches have like completely shut down their business, because they’ve probably scaled too much built too much team can’t handle the stress as they balance those family obligations. And so I really think that. Just being slow and steady and having a small business is fabulous and and is great and just to trust that you know what’s best for you and to stop outsourcing that thinking to other people who are telling you to do it a certain way and to just find your own way forward.

Kira Hug: Well this has been really inspiring and motivating and there’s been so many practical tips that we can use and apply in our businesses today so Thank you so much, Kim. And I hope that you’re speaking on many other podcasts and sharing all your wisdom with other audiences, because this is great. Thank you. Where should our listeners go if they want to connect with you?

Kim Kiel: Sure. So I am kind of active on Instagram. That handle is kim underscore keel underscore copy. You can obviously listen to my podcast, Ill Communication. You’ll find it on all the platforms. And the central clearinghouse for everything is kimkeel.com.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Thanks, Kim.

Kira Hug: Thank you.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Kim Kiel. I want to add just a couple of thoughts, as I usually do, to our conversation so you’ve got a little bit more to think about as you listen back and think about how am I going to take some of the ideas from this episode and make them work in my business. 

Kim talked a little bit about the high touch experience. I want to make sure that I underline this because we did mention in the interview, Jason Friedman, our interview with him, which I believe was the last episode. You want to definitely go back and listen to that because we talked about creating the client experience from A to Z and what’s really involved in that. But Kim’s approach is really good. Again, it doesn’t make people jump through hoops. It’s not really expansive, but she focuses on listening, reflecting back what she hears from her clients. making sure that she’s communicating effectively. She wants them to feel like they’ve got premium access to her. So she gives them her Voxer or her text number and invites them to contact her anytime. That kind of connection creates confidence in a client. They know that they’re going to be supportive. They know they can reach out and while they probably won’t, there is some risk that they will, but they probably won’t. And so what you’re really doing is building trust and confidence in you as a copywriter, if you’re doing those kinds of things. And of course, adding gifts or care packages along the way, especially as you wrap up a project, a thank you note, thank you card, a gift, those things all create a higher touch experience than what a lot of copywriters do, which is just hitting send on a Google Doc and letting the clients try to figure out what’s going on, maybe even implementing on their own without any help or follow-up. 

We also touched a bit about the long follow-up game that Kim plays. One touch isn’t enough. We’re building a relationship here when we’re talking about following up with clients on client pitches or even your podcasts or things that you want to do. You need to treat it a little bit more like dating. Now, of course, you don’t want to be creepy, but you also don’t want to give up unless the person that you’re reaching out to has told you to stop, told you that they’re not interested or that they don’t have any availability right now. Follow up three, four, five times at least, and maybe even longer. And of course, if somebody said, I don’t have time right now, that doesn’t mean that they don’t want to work with you at some point in the future. So if you get that feedback, set a reminder in your calendar to follow up in say 60 days or 90 days when they might be more interested or they might be ready with a project, but make sure that you’re following up. That’s the difference between success and failure when it comes to pitching clients. It’s all in the followup. 

Finally, I just want to mention in the very beginning, Kim mentioned that her very first client was her previous employer. If you are a copywriter who is thinking about going out on your own and you have a job today, this is a great place to start. Talk about this opportunity that you have to go out on your own with your boss. See if they would be supportive. See if there is work that you can do for them on a freelance basis. Oftentimes that saves the company money because they’re not paying benefits. There’s the expenses of office and computer, that kind of thing. Obviously you’re taking on those expenses. So you gotta be careful that you don’t make under bill and make sure that you’re paying for those things on your own, but it’s often more affordable for clients to be able to work with freelancers than with full time employees. And so if you are in a situation where you’re employed, but you want to go out on your own talk, to your boss or maybe their boss and see if this is even something that they would consider because we’ve talked about a bunch of copywriters on the podcast who have done this very thing and it becomes that anchor client that allows them to set up and run their business for the first few months, maybe even a year or two, and then you’re off to the races. 

Okay, I want to thank Kim Kiel for joining us to chat about her business and the slow and steady growth that she’s experienced over the past few years. Make sure you check Kim out on Instagram or on her website, kimkeel.com. And also don’t miss her podcast. We mentioned this during the interview. It’s called ill communications. And on that podcast, she shares bite-sized tips about writing and marketing and all kinds of things. It’s worth subscribing. So check her out there.

What does it take to become a copywriter? How do you learn the skills you need? What are the best ways to “get in the game’ so to speak? In the 388th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with copywriter Eddie Shleyner about the process of becoming a copywriter—and how he made the jump from literature student to booked-out-copywriter and author of a book about copy. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

63dPOtaGJD0Ma5JnQw40XCXFU-9PfRDHKNRgKo743v2lE0nd7KDfN2lZbw.pdKZE3sdhS0isJ_0wjBPkfmibC6J6vysBQTFHrMU70M&dib_tag=se&keywords=adweek+copywriting+handbook&qid=1711398667&sprefix=adweek%252Caps%252C164&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=aab86b628d417153482999ddbfb20635&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Adweek Copywriting Handbook by Joe Sugarman 4000 Weeks by Oliver Burkeman The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Eddie’s website

Full Transcript:

Most weeks on the podcast we take some time to dive into a different copywriter’s origin story. Why they became a copywriter. How they made the switch from whatever they were before to what they do now. It’s a process we all go through, and yet, we tend to skip over a lot of the details. We jump from one client to the next, or from this service to that product. We cover a lot of what and don’t go very deep into the how.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and soon to be book author, Eddie Shleyner. Eddie shared the details of how he learned to write copy, the feedback he got along the way, and the books he found most helpful. And that’s just the beginning. We also talked about sabaticals, burnout and book writing. This is a good one, stay tuned. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. We recently updated our guide to finding clients… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… things you can do today to attract a client—maybe even in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take a bit longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. 

But don’t just download this document and let it die on your hard drive. If that’s your approach, don’t bother. This isn’t a one page pdf that’s easy to ignore. It’s a comprehensive… 36 page mini book… that includes the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will run away from you—the exact opposite of what you want. I already mentioned it includes more than 21 ways to find clients, as well as several templates or scripts you can use to reach out to clients, and finally it reveals the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient — find a client is all one word and we’ll send you a copy for free.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Eddie.

Kira Hug: All right, Eddie, we want to start with your story. How did you end up as a copywriter?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh, well, I guess it was a pretty organic thing for me because I majored in English. I was an English major. I studied literature at U of I, and that’s what I wanted to do, I think. I wanted to graduate and write novels and short story anthologies, and obviously that’s It’s really hard to do right out of college, so I had to get a day job. I got a job in sales, and I was selling software. I was selling computers. It was basically inside sales, but it was trying work for me. I didn’t really enjoy it. I think I really wanted to write, and so after about a year in that role, my buddy came home. My roommate came home and he said that his work was looking for a copywriter. And I didn’t know what a copywriter was. Actually, I had to look it up. I knew somebody was out there writing these ads, but I didn’t know they were called copywriters. So this goes to show how little I knew about this discipline in this profession before getting into it. 

But I looked it up and I was like, yeah, sure, I’ll try that. And I went in and I think I got the job just on the back of my English degree, because It was a brand new department. They were writing job ads. It was a contract role. I wasn’t getting any health insurance. I was making $15 an hour. So it was one of those. And I took the job just because I was like, hey, I can make a living writing. And quickly learned that my worth in that role was based on how many times I can get people to click and how many times I can get people to take an action. And so independently, just kind of doing my research, realized that I was doing something called direct response copywriting. And then I kind of went down the rabbit hole. I got really interested in that profession and that discipline and started consuming as much as I could about it. I started just reading books and watching seminars, listening to podcasts, reading articles. Yeah, whenever I would come into an insight, whenever I would hear a principle or a technique that was really compelling to me, I would try to write about it. And that turned into a very good copy eventually, my blog and my newsletter. And then, you know, it just kind of progressed from there. So I think that that’s how I got into copywriting was kind of a slow burn.

Rob Marsh: Do you have a novel in your desk drawer that you’ve been working on in the background, Eddie?

Eddie Shleyner: Thanks for asking, man. It’s not a novel. It’s an anthology of my work, but yeah, there is something that I’ve been working on, if that’s what you’re getting at.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll wait for that to hit the bestseller list so we can talk about it then. In the meantime, you know, as you were studying, as you’re learning, obviously podcast books, whatever, what were like the main sources that you used or that you were there were your go tos that you were pulling this stuff from? I’m asking mostly because I know there are beginners who are listening to the podcast and may want to replicate that, learn and write about these insights and learning ideas. Where’d you go?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, the first book I picked up was by Joe Sugarman. It’s called 63dPOtaGJD0Ma5JnQw40XCXFU-9PfRDHKNRgKo743v2lE0nd7KDfN2lZbw.pdKZE3sdhS0isJ_0wjBPkfmibC6J6vysBQTFHrMU70M&dib_tag=se&keywords=adweek+copywriting+handbook&qid=1711398667&sprefix=adweek%252Caps%252C164&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=aab86b628d417153482999ddbfb20635&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Adweek Copywriting Handbook. And I really wore it out. I mean, it was so overwhelming in its completeness. I just felt like it covered so much. And what was really interesting about that book was when I picked it up and I started reading it, being a literature major and studying English all those years and reading the classics. And I started reading and I was like, man, this sounds like it’s like reading air. You know, it was like it was so simple and so plain. I was almost unimpressed at first. I was like, well, you know, is this really the resource that I should be reading? Is this really where I should be gathering information? Because it seems so trite at first, because it was so simple. But I think that was just the first couple pages, and then I realized that this was really just a treasure trove of information about direct response copywriting. And not just that, but it was something to emulate. 

It was a writing style that I needed to emulate, and I referred back to it time and time again and copyworked it time and time again so that I can get that so I could get it into me, you know, the type of writing, the tone that he was using and the word choice and just the sentence structure and the simplicity in general. I really wanted to write that way and not the way that I was writing in college. You know, I had an editor that was like, “you write like a fire hose, I need you to write like a nail gun.” And that was Joe Sugarman. Joe Sugarman was so intentional about every word that he used. He was even intentional down to the punctuation marks. He wouldn’t use unnecessary commas. He was always trying to save space on the page, make it as simple as possible. And so, yeah, I took a lot away from that, both in the principles and techniques of direct response, but also just in the style and how those guys wrote.

Kira Hug: So you shared your lessons. It sounds like you were learning and writing and sharing. Yeah. What was the reason for that initially? I mean, we can look back now and say, that was really smart, because now you’ve developed this entire resource and website, and you’ve grown since then. But what was your initial thinking with that?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, my initial thinking, I think, was that, you know, I missed writing. This was coming off of an entire writing and literature education, so I missed just the act of sitting down and composing vignettes and these little stories, which is something that I did pretty regularly, I think, in college. And so I think I missed it a lot, and I wanted to have an outlet for that. I wanted to exercise that a little bit. Also, I just thought, hey, if I can write about this clearly and concisely, if I can make it engaging, if I had control of this concept on the page, then that meant that I was ready to use it in my own promotions and my own ads. I think that was probably the driving force. They say millennials want to document everything in their lives. Maybe I just wanted to have some way of documenting all of this effort that I was putting in. I don’t know. It’s a good question. It’s hard to pinpoint exactly why I chose to do that, but somewhere in the intersection of those three things is the answer, I think.

Rob Marsh: When you weren’t only documenting what you were learning, you know, as part of your blog, you started interviews with other copywriters. Yeah. And there’s some really good copywriters that you interviewed for that. Yes. I’m not necessarily putting myself in that category, even though I was part of that, that series. But I am curious, were there lessons that you learned from them as you did those interviews and post those on your website that you look back and think, oh, yeah, that was brilliant. Anything that you can call out from what was shared there?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. You were actually, Rob, I think you were the third person I interviewed. I was very gracious of you because, you know, you didn’t have to do that.

Rob Marsh: Well, things really got good after the first three or four people, I think.

Eddie Shleyner: I don’t know. You were great. But to answer your question, themes that emerged were probably more than anything that just the fact that we are so similar. We are also so alike as copywriters and you know as people doing creative work for a living. I was really surprised by a lot of things that people wrote in that? It’s the same six questions over and over again, and the first question is: do you have a routine you have a way of working and this wasn’t like across the board, but so many people talked about how focus was really the key to doing good work and their production in general. Just being able to have blocks of time where they sat down and they were uninterrupted and they could focus on the problem at hand. I took that to heart back then. I think it’s a lot harder after you have kids. You have to be a lot more regimented with your time and just plan everything out to a T. But I think thematically, that was one of the things that really stood out across the board.

Kira Hug: Going back to your storyline, can you share a little bit more about once you realize you’re a copywriter, you have this job, and then you go deep into learning mode, what happens after that? What are the next few steps?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh, you mean like in my career progression? Yes, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, so I actually worked at CareerBuilder which is where I was writing those job ads for about a year and a half. And so those are like three month contracts. So they just, you know, they extended those contracts probably five or six times. So I worked there for a year and a half and then afterwards I got a job at an agency. And it was, it was an SEO agency. We created SEO websites, but a lot of that work was very much rooted in direct response as well. You know, we needed to capture people’s attention when they got onto the site and convert them as well. So everything on that site was just pointing towards the fill in lead form. And a lot of our clients were, you know, kind of, you know, hand to mouth with their leads. So, you know, dentists, trucking companies, moving companies, that sort of thing. So I worked there for a little while and I continued to build out the blog and build out—I don’t even know if it was a newsletter at that point. 

For a while, it was just like a running list of like 50 or 60 of these little essays that I wrote in a Google Doc. I was never going to show them to anybody. They were just there just for me. I just thought, hey, I’m making this repository for myself. So I worked there for a little while. I think I worked there for about three years. And then after that, I got a job in-house at a software company. And that’s where I got a lot of SaaS experience, or at least my first SaaS experience. And then after that, I went and worked really briefly at a content marketing agency. It was called Animals. And then after that, I went to G2.com, which is kind of like Yelp, but for B2B businesses. And I was the copy chief there until November 2020, something like that. And that’s when I went out on my own with their copy. So that was the progression.

Rob Marsh: You mentioned you started out in that sales job that you didn’t necessarily love all that much, and yet you basically became a salesperson for all of these roles that you did. Did you learn anything in that first job that you carry through all of these things? Obviously, there’s a theme here anyway of you learning and picking insights and growing as you move from place to place, anything stand out specifically about sales?

Eddie Shleyner: Oh yeah, of course. I was in sales before this job after college. I did door-to-door sales for a little bit. I think at the end of the day, whether you’re selling one-on-one to somebody or whether you’re selling one-to-many as a copywriter, the point is that you have to gear everything towards the person that you’re speaking to, towards that prospect, towards the person that you want to sell. If you can make it as much about that person as possible, then you’re giving yourself a good shot at engaging them and compelling them in the long run. I think a lot of that transfers over from one-to-one sales to copywriting, is to know your audience, know who you’re talking to, know what they really want and need, and then try to channel that into your copy.

Kira Hug: So I’m going back to the storyline, because I have to complete it in my head. This is how my brain works. I’m like, OK. So then you went out on your own. And how did you get that going? Did you have enough colleagues, former colleagues, that you could just get business going pretty easily at that point?

Eddie Shleyner: I think when I started at G2, that was a really fortuitous thing for me, because everybody there was so supportive of this side thing, this very good copy thing that I was doing. And everybody from the CEO to the CMO to the marketing directors, all my bosses, everybody loved the fact that I had this blog on the side, this newsletter on the side. And I think a lot of that came down to hey, you know, you’re teaching yourself and others how to be better copywriters. That’s only going to benefit the business in the long run. So keep doing what you’re doing. Um, I think, you know, I was performing well in the role anyway, so there wasn’t like a, Hey, you’re distracted, uh, kind of narrative there. 

So it was just very lucky that I started at G2 and I was surrounded by people, um, that were supportive and genuinely wanted to help me. The first break I got there was just being around like a bunch of growth marketers, really talented growth marketers, people that taught me not necessarily how to write or what to write, but how to spread my stuff around the Internet really efficiently. And that’s when LinkedIn kind of came into the picture, when I started posting on LinkedIn and when I started creating growth loops from my website to my newsletter to LinkedIn, that just kind of amplified each post. And yeah, I really, I started growing a following on LinkedIn while I was still at G2. 

I couldn’t ask for more support than those people showed me. I mean, it was really great. And I think, you know, I was really lucky to have it. So by the time I left G2, I had left because there was already so much incoming so many incoming leads, so much incoming business that I felt safe, you know, walking away, even amid, you know, we were in the middle of the pandemic and everything, which was, I think a lot of people, they just looked at it sideways. They were like, I can’t believe you’re leaving now, but I just felt like it was the right time to go and kind of take advantage of this network that I’d built. So, yeah.

Kira Hug: I like the idea of, who said spread stuff, spread your stuff around the internet and growth loops. Yeah, efficiently. I mean, I want to do that. So how, how do you approach that? How are you doing that today? What’s working?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, certainly in the very beginning, I started creating growth loops from my newsletter to LinkedIn. So every single time I wrote a new micro-essay just as a branding exercise—they’re basically little essays that teach one principle or technique at a time. And so I would post it on LinkedIn, and then I would send out the exact same essay in my newsletter. And then at the end of the newsletter, I would just ask for support and be like, hey, if you like this, go reshare or go leave a comment or like it on LinkedIn. And by posting and sending out that newsletter in such close proximity and transferring my audience from the newsletter to LinkedIn, it would just amplify the post to all those folks. So now there’s the commenting or the pod trend, the commenting trend, where you kind of get together with a bunch of people and everybody comments on one another’s stuff. You know, it’s the same concept, only I was doing it with people that were in my newsletter and just asking for their support organically that way. And, you know, that, I think that helped me grow quickly. Just, just the fact that, you know, there was this audience transfer and this amplification on, on LinkedIn. on the platform itself. And then inside that post, there would be a CTA, a call to action to go to VeryGoodCopy.com if they wanted to read more. And VeryGoodCopy.com, if you look at it, I mean, it’s basically designed to get you into the newsletter. Like, you know, I don’t know how many thousands of CTAs there are across that site, but I would say 90% of them are designed to get you to subscribe. So it would just be a virtuous circle. People would see the post, they would go to the CTA, see that there’s more on VeryGoodCopy.com, they’d go to VeryGoodCopy, get into the newsletter, and the next time I sent out a newsletter, there would just be more people there to amplify the post. So I think there have been You know, over time, there’s diminishing returns like everything else. But in the very beginning, that was definitely an effective way to grow.

Rob Marsh: So I want to ask some follow ups on this. You started doing this when? Is this 2020 or before that? 2020 is when I left.

Eddie Shleyner: I think I started doing this about 2019. Okay.

Rob Marsh: And you were sending out how often? Once a week or less? More?

Eddie Shleyner: I think I was sending out once. I wasn’t that regimented. I mean, I think I was sending out once a week. That was my goal. I didn’t have any sponsors at that point or anything like that, so I wasn’t that obsessed with the frequency. But yeah, I think once a week is a pretty good estimate.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, the reason I ask, obviously, there are people teaching these things on LinkedIn, you know, post three times a week or whatever, and yet you were able to do it at least a few years ago, without that kind of frequency. How often do you post or share newsletters now?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, the newsletters still go out once a week, ideally. I take pretty frequent breaks, kind of like hiatuses. At least once a year, I’ll go three months and I’ll just kind of go a little dark. I won’t go on LinkedIn. I won’t send a newsletter out. Sometimes I’ll even kind of leave an away message on my email and I just won’t really check that or it won’t be that frequent. And usually that coincides with a big project that I’m doing, like this year was the book. So I took a couple months off and just kind of focused on doing the book. Last year was the course that I made and I just took like three months and literally just heads down, didn’t do anything else besides the course. And then sometimes it’s really just to kind of get back to, you know, like craft and just get back to what got me into this in the first place. You know, as a solopreneur, as somebody that’s doing this on their own, I think it’s really hard to balance craft and growth. 

And for so long, you know, like in the very beginning, Kira, when we were talking about like, you know, how this all started and I was kind of walking through like, uh, you know, the, the, the, the impetus behind Very Good Copy, that was very much like a craft phase. I was trying to go from like zero to 80% and trying to learn the fundamentals of this discipline. And then after I got that down a little bit and I started writing these essays and sharing them, and I realized that there was an audience for it and there was some potential for a business there, then I became really interested in growth mode. And perhaps that was like, you know, a consequence of the people that I was around. I was around a lot of growth marketers, around people that were good at it and wanted to see me succeed. 

So I just went into this kind of growth mode for a little while there, probably a couple of years where I was still writing and still trying to do my best work. But there was this kind of like, I don’t know, there was this tension between like, hey, how much time can I put into writing? And how much time do I need to put into all of the administrative work that goes into growing this thing? And I found over time that that was like, like a perfect way to burn out and a perfect way to really hate your life. You know, it’s just impossible to do all of that at once. 

And so now I kind of oscillate between growth and doing all the things that I need to do to spread my work around the Internet and do it efficiently and do it in a way that’s going to be effective. And then every now and then I’ll be like, OK, a lot on that. I got to take a break and I got to really focus on going from you know, really focus on growth going like going from zero to 80% is easy. I think compared to going from 81% to 90%, you know, that’s super hard, you know, comparatively. And then going from like 91% to 95%, you know, is exponentially harder than the last phase, you know, and then going from like 96 to 99, you know, that’s exponentially harder. And then like going to getting to a hundred is probably a fool’s errand. Like that’s probably never going to happen. So it’s just like growth. or I’m sorry, like craft is just this ever increasingly difficult thing to do and to develop. And I think it just, it deserves time, like dedicated focused time. And so that’s what I try to, I try to do that whenever I can.

Rob Marsh: And last question about this entire process, at least for me, as you’re putting this out and talking about giving back to the craft and learning, sharing your insights, does customer acquisition come into it at all as you’re sharing? Are you posting on LinkedIn in order to attract clients? Or is it really about sharing what you’re learning?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, sometimes, yeah, if I’m heads down, I’m probably not posting. I’m probably just dark. My account just kind of sits there. Every now and then, I guess I will. But yeah, the client acquisition piece, I think it’s more like a subscriber acquisition. I think that’s what I’m focused on. I’m not focused on getting direct leads from LinkedIn. I’m focused on getting those folks in front of my brand, in front of Very Good Copy, into the newsletter. And then from the newsletter, that’s usually where people decide to work with me or decide to buy a sponsorship or decide to buy a consultation or my course or something like that. So once they’re in the newsletter, that’s when I think I have much more control over the message. And so that’s always my goal is to get people into the newsletter. whether they become clients or sponsors or consultees or what have you. It all happens in the newsletter, I guess is what I’m saying.

Kira Hug: What does it look like today? How are you getting paid the different ways… sponsorships, consulting. But what are you primarily focused on? Is it all spread out and you kind of have revenue coming in multiple ways at this point?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, definitely. So a few revenue streams, client work. I made a course and I’ve been selling it for about a year. So that’s a revenue stream. Sponsorships for the newsletter and then consultations. So people buy a couple hours of my time and then we’ll sit and talk about their problems. And it’s definitely shifted from the majority of my income coming from client work to the majority coming from just these products. So the course, hopefully the book, sells a few copies. I’m interested in productizing the brand as much as I can and creating things that scale. And I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing client work. I think as a copywriter, it keeps you fresh. Solving real world problems is a great way to stay on top of your craft and on top of your discipline. So I don’t think I’ll ever stop doing it. It’s just there’s obviously an opportunity cost there. If I’m doing client work, then I can’t take the time to create a course or write a book. And so there’s that give and take, and I just have to pick a lane. And so I’m trying to live in that lane, the productized lane.

Rob Marsh: the newsletter and sponsorships, the economics of that, if you’re willing to share. We had a few months ago, maybe a little more than a few months ago, John Bijakovic was on our podcast and talked a little bit about this newsletter he’s building outside of the copywriting space. I think there are a lot of people who are listening who would love to build a newsletter, whether that’s on Beehive or Substack or ConvertKit or wherever, and look at that as possibly its own business or a significant part of their income. I wish it was that easy, you know, put up a newsletter and suddenly you’re making lots of money, but we just kind of talk through the economics of how you do it. If you’re willing to share the numbers, awesome. If not, you can be a little bit generic, but just curious about what that looks like.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. So yeah, the numbers fluctuate depending on how many subscribers there are and, and the time of year. And, and so, um, you know, the carrot that I kind of dangle over, over, over folks on the website is like, Hey, email me for, for rates. And so, you know, I can’t, I probably can’t share exactly what I’m charging. Um, you know, I’d like people to, I’d like to have those conversations one-on-one I think. But, uh, yeah, the economics are, um, yeah, they’re pretty simple. It’s a matrix, you know, and, and, uh, the more you buy, the more you save. And, um, you know, it’s, uh, It also depends on what your goal is. If your goal is conversion, then newsletters could be a good medium for you to advertise in. They could not be. Usually I like to go after folks that are interested in raising awareness and getting their brand in front of people, maybe associating their brand with very good copy. Yeah, so I certainly wouldn’t turn away anybody that wants to convert my subscribers into customers, but that would take a very specific offer, a very specific campaign, and we’d probably have to work together on that to make sure that it’s successful. But if it was an awareness campaign and they just wanted to get their logo out in front of 15, 20,000 people every time I send a newsletter, that’s a much easier conversation. And that does happen pretty often, actually.

Kira Hug: So if you’re, if I hire you and you’re my consultant and I also want to sell sponsorships to my newsletter, what advice would you give me as far as what’s realistic? Like how many people do I really need on my newsletter to even have a sponsorship conversation and be attractive to sponsors as a baseline? And then secondly, How do you create that win for your sponsor clients when it’s around awareness, which is sometimes harder to measure? It can be measurable, but it’s a little tricky at times as far as brand awareness and creating a win for them so they continue sponsoring in your newsletter.

Eddie Shleyner: Right. Well, I’ll answer the second one first. I think when it comes to awareness channels, it’s really about, hey, how many people saw this? you know, how many eyeballs from a very specific nature, a very specific discipline saw this. So if I could say, Hey, you know, every time I send out a newsletter, 20,000 marketers and copywriters are going to see your logo and your message above the fold. So it’s the first thing, you know, in my newsletter, it’s the ads are the first thing people see. UThat’s enough for them to say, Hey, that’s, that’s a win. And then if I could just show them the open rates, show them how many unique people opened it and saw the message. For a lot of people, that’s enough. Obviously, if you click through and you take an action on the other side of that click, then that’s obviously another KPI that they take into consideration. But from an awareness standpoint, yeah, sometimes it’s just enough to show people that logo. And a use case for that is like, hey, if you’re raising capital, maybe you’re raising your series A or B, and you just want to be a more known entity in the SaaS space or in the marketing space. That’s a big reason why people pick up ads in my newsletter, just to get that awareness level up. Your first question, I think that was about how many people in a newsletter?

Kira Hug: Yeah, I mean, we have a, our audience wants, I mean, I’m sure many of them would like to do something similar, get sponsors, but maybe they have 2000 people on their list and they’re really excited about that. Is it realistic? You know, Hey, you probably need to get up to 10,000 before you have any conversations with sponsors or like a rough number.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t discourage anybody. Um, from pursuing sponsors at really any size newsletter. Because I think what’s more important than the size is just the quality of those people and how alike they are, if that makes sense. If they’re all marketers, or they’re all copywriters, or they all have this one very specific interest, then it’s very valuable for people that are going after that group, that segment, to advertise with you, even if you have 100 people or 200 people? I think that’s my answer is, yeah, obviously, the bigger your newsletter, the bigger your audience, the more you can probably charge. But yeah, at the same rate, if you have 200 or 300 people that are fanatical about a certain subject and somebody with a product that’s aligned with that subject, once they get in front of those people, that’s still very valuable. And that could still turn into sales.

Rob Marsh: While we’re talking about audiences and all of that, I’m curious about the audience for your book. Actually, I’m curious about all things around your book, the decision to write it, your approach, methodology, what it’s about. Tell us a bit about that.

Eddie Shleyner: Sure. Yeah, I appreciate you, Rob. I mean, you know, the book is like very good copy.com, I think in print. You know, I, it’s a lot of people have asked me for some kind of like physical, tangible thing, you know, and I’ve never, I don’t know, maybe one day I’ll make hats or something or stickers, but that just never felt like the right thing to do, and I’ve always wanted to put my best work together into a book, and this is just that opportunity to do it, I think. It’s just, you know, it’s 10 years into Very Good Copy, and I would love to, you know, present all of these essays that I’ve written in a new kind of fresh way. And so I’ve been taking some time to go back and edit like my, all of my, all of the articles that would make it into the book, which is actually, it’s kind of a horrifying thing because it’s like, I can’t believe I, I published this at one point. It’s just incredible, like how much you, I guess, develop when you do something every single day and, you know, just reading some of my work back, it’s just, it’s just unbelievable to me. So I think if there’s anything that I’ve learned in the process, it’s that, you know, That craft bar is constantly moving, or it should be. And as it does, you are going to be extremely unsatisfied with a lot of the stuff that you’ve done in the past, a lot of the work that you’ve done, or at least I have been. So yeah, it’s been kind of an interesting process going back and editing and arranging everything. But that’s what the book is. It’s very good copy.com in print. you know, organized and arranged in a way that I think makes a little bit more sense than the website. And it has the benefit of being like me today, as opposed to me four or five or six or 10 years ago.

Kira Hug: And how does it fit in? I mean, other than you’re excited about it and it’s important to you, how do you see it fitting into the business? Is it like, OK, this is another great way to get people on my list and get them into my world or another purpose?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I think it’s just another product under the umbrella. And it’s a much more accessible product, I guess. hundreds of dollars and being purchased by folks that have a very specific goal or need in mind, a very specific problem that they’re trying to solve for. The book is probably a much more reasonable price point, a book price point, and it’s much more accessible to people and I feel like it could do a lot of the marketing for a very good copy as well. If people buy the book first and then they can make it into my ecosystem that way instead of seeing me on LinkedIn or Twitter or something first. So yeah, I think it’s a product. It’s a marketing channel. And then it’s also just something that would feed my soul, I think, and make me happy. And a lot of times that’s very much overlooked. by creators. It’s like, what can I do to get bigger, faster? And, you know, a lot of the joy is sucked out of this profession when you do that. You know, a lot of the reason why we started doing this in the first place becomes kind of null and void when it’s all about growth and it’s all about how fast can we grow. And, you know, you start looking at it as a competition between creators. It becomes really unhealthy. So it’s one of those things where, like I said, it’s something that’s gonna feed my soul and give me energy at the end of the day so that I can hopefully go out and put on part two and part three and part four.

Rob Marsh: And when can we expect the book? When’s it hitting store shelves by us?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, so it should be this spring, so spring 2024. Yeah, probably like May, probably like May. I’m gonna send you guys copies. because I really appreciate you.

Rob Marsh: It’s amazing. Okay, so you mentioned earlier, especially with these big projects that burnout can become a thing. We’ve talked a little bit about your experience with that and how you push through it or overcome it or deal with it. I know there’s a lot of different approaches to burnout and making sure that stuff gets done. Just how do you look at those kinds of challenges?

Eddie Shleyner: Well, for a while I just kind of white knuckled it, you know, like I was just like, man, I’m tired. You know, you wake up when you’re burnt out, you wake up and you’re like, man, I, I really just don’t want to do this. I think it’s a hard thing to describe. It’s not like the most tangible sensation. It’s just like this feeling that, Hey, this thing that I once loved or that once gave me energy is now sucking it out of me. And, um, you know, for a while I, I, uh, I just kind of white knuckled it because I was balancing G2 and I was balancing this newsletter and I was balancing the ebbs and flows of that. Not everything I put out was successful. I just kind of forced it and that would usually make the problem worse. I would usually become more unhappy. I’m more anxious. And so that’s when I would start taking these kinds of breaks, these two, three month kind of hiatuses. And I realized that that’s kind of a luxury and not everybody can do that. But at that point in my career, I felt like I was so deep into it that that’s what I had to do, was just step away. So that’s how I dealt with it. 

Now having kids and living kind of a more family life, I’m forced to not be in my work constantly. Not forced, that’s the wrong word. My priorities have shifted. I want to be with my family. I want to be with my kids. That’s the most important thing in my life now. And so I’m not constantly around work and I’m not constantly in work. And that’s really kind of healed the problem for me. It’s just like knowing that, hey, I have a certain amount of time, you know, that I can allocate to work every single day. And I just got to come in and I got five hours and I start the clock and I just see what happens. I just see what I can put out, you know. And then after that time’s up, go pick up the kids, go do that thing, you know. And it’s forced these boundaries. Whereas before, I didn’t really have those boundaries. Before, I was just so dedicated to making this thing successful that I might work 80 or 90 hours a week in a silo, not really having a lot of people around me to tell me, hey, you need to back off of this right now. So yeah, I think that’s what That’s the way I see it now is I have these boundaries that I have to respect. And that keeps the burnout at bay, I think, because I’m just not in it. I’m just not doing the work. And so I’m not doing as much work, I guess.

Kira Hug: Yeah. Kids make really good boundaries. Yeah. They help. They help, definitely.

Rob Marsh: They also step all over your boundaries.

Kira Hug: They create burnout in other ways, but we don’t have to get into that.

Eddie Shleyner: Did that make sense, Rob? I mean, I’m not sure if I’m answering it right, but I don’t know how else to put it. Burnout is such a strange thing. You just have to-

Kira Hug: I mean, you addressed it with this sabbatical that you’re taking. It’s like, I want to hear more about that. I mean, OK, I’m listening. I’m like, that sounds great. You’ve talked about it maybe a couple times with Sage Polaris, right? And maybe it’s come up in a couple other conversations. But a lot of people aren’t taking these sabbaticals, even though they’re focused. It’s not like you’re just going to the beach. You’re working on projects. So what advice would you give us? so that maybe we could do it? I mean, is it like, hey, you gotta go really hard in September and October, bring in a lot of client work, and then the best time is to take it over the holidays, take a couple months, come back in February, and get this going? Like, what works, practically speaking, to make this work for you?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I mean, the timing is a very personal thing, right? It’s like, you know, I usually take them in November, December, January, because that’s a slow time anyway. And I think the opportunity cost of taking it in that quarter or towards the end of the year in general is just lower. And it probably just aligns with when I’m most tired. I don’t know. It’s the end of the year, and I’ve been going for a while. And you just want to take some time to relax and be with your people. But it depends. I remember Brian Clark saying that Copyblogger would go on this really low maintenance schedule in the summer because you only have so many summers and you want to get out there and do things in the summer. And so that was when the Copyblogger team would go out and be with their people and be with their family and do their thing and kind of take these little mini sabbaticals where they didn’t work as much. So the timing is completely up to you. And from an economic standpoint, that’s also pretty personal. It’s like, how much are you willing to take on in order to be comfortable for the next four, eight, or 12 weeks without work? So there is a fair bit of planning that has to go into it. It’s just a matter of how prepared are you to plan and how well can you stick to that game plan in order to enable it. And then I think the third piece is just like, do you have something really important that you want to do in that time? For me, there was the goal of creating the course or getting this book off the ground. Sometimes it’s like, hey, my daughter’s zero days old. I just want to be there for the first three months and just make sure that I’m experiencing this part of her life, you know? Everybody has their own kind of motivations, I think. But it’s just like, yeah, it’s just kind of at the intersection of like, is the timing right for you? Can you get the planning right? And then there’s something really compelling that is worth kind of taking your attention away from more

Rob Marsh: So you may have just answered this question because I was thinking through like, what does the sabbatical look like on a day to day basis? Obviously, you know, if you’re spending time with your kids, you’re working on a project like a book, that’s a big part of it. I imagine that if I were to set aside time for myself to take a sabbatical, day one would start with a lot of Netflix catching up and time wasting. It’s not really wasting if you’re getting something out of it, but a lot of vegetation as opposed to letting me rejuvenate my creative juices in some way, right? So I’m curious if there are things that you’re doing specifically during that time period that you’ve set aside or is it just letting life come as it is and you just know at the end of the three months or two months, whatever that timeline is, you’re going to kick back in and start working just like you always did.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah. Well, for a while, I did have that kind of feeling of like, Hey, if you know, even if I’m taking a break, I still need to be doing something semi-productive. And I think I read a book called, uh, 4,000 weeks by Oliver Burkeman. 

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Oliver Berkman. 

Eddie Shleyner: That’s right. You’ve read it. I think it’s safe to say we could recommend that book to anybody because it’s, it, it speaks to this. compulsion that people have to constantly be doing something, even when they’re supposed to be taking a break. Just constantly be doing something productive, useful, and maybe that’s not always necessary. Maybe it is just necessary to just totally turn off and feel bored or feel like you’re not getting anything done. And maybe that’s what you need in order to incubate properly and rest properly. 

And so I read that book. I read it a couple times because it was just so fascinating to me. I was like, man, I’ve been living my life kind of the wrong way for a long time. And like on one hand, I was kind of, you know, like this like workaholism kind of enabled Very Good Copy and enabled my career. And so it’s hard to condemn it completely, but maybe I just read the book at the right time in my life where this is the ethos that I need in order to sustain the longevity that, you know, a creative career demands, you know. This type of work is really hard and it’s really taxing. And so maybe it only makes sense that, you know, it’s easy in the same way when you’re taking a break. And it’s mindless in the same way when you’re taking a break. 

So to answer your question, what does it look like? I kind of work. Like Austin Kleon once said, he was like, I come to work and I put in my hours like a banker. Just four hours, five hours, I see what gets done. I do that. But then also, when I’m away, I’m away. And I binge on Netflix. put the kids down and just kind of try to do nothing. And it’s a stark contrast from the way that it used to be because it’s like I’ve been living a pretty domesticated kind of existence for a while now since my kids were born. So it’s not like, you know, I would put them down and be going out or be doing anything too crazy. I’ll go on the couch, but I would go on the couch and write, you know, I’ll go on the couch and I’d watch something. And I couldn’t get through the show because I would be like, oh, that’s a great idea. And I would pull out my phone and start writing something. Yeah, again, it’s like it’s a double edged sword because those habits enabled a lot of the work that I’ve done. But at the same time, they also burned me out in ways that made me really unhappy. 

And so I think coming out on the other side of it, I think the latter is more important. You know, your long term happiness and your long term mental health are going to enable your long term creativity and this career that we’re all trying to kind of make it in. So I prioritize, I guess, those habits now. So, you know, during a sabbatical, that’s what I do. I put in my hours like a banker and then I shut off and I don’t put undue pressure on myself because whatever, you know, we’re all dust in the end anyway. So it’s like, why am I doing it?

Kira Hug: How old are your kids now?

Eddie Shleyner: Bo is two and a half and Sophia is almost six months.

Kira Hug: Oh my goodness. Wow. Okay. So what does the future look like for you? I mean you are someone who seems you’re a planner in some ways enough to plan sabbaticals and so you’re thinking about longevity. It’s important to you. What do you see as your future also considering dramatic changes we’ve seen in the creative space over the last few years with AI and other shifts? How does that change what you’re thinking about if it does change anything?

Eddie Shleyner: well, I’d like to just I’d like to keep doing what I’m when I’m doing, you know, I think you know, I like thinking deeply about what brings me the most satisfaction is is writing these these micro essays and and putting together resources that help folks. And so I’m really interested in continuing along that path and being consistent with my output as far as the essays go. And, you guys ever seen that Giru Dreams of Sushi documentary? I love that documentary. It’s so good. It’s excellent, Kira. If you get a chance, I don’t know where it’s streaming, but it’s streaming somewhere, probably Hulu. But it’s an excellent documentary about this. I mean, during the filming, he was probably 85 years old. He was a sushi chef. And he was just obsessed with creating the same 30 or 40 pieces of sushi and doing it as best as he could. And I drew a lot of inspiration from that. And I would love to just get as good as I can at writing these essays. you know, putting out the best product I can and hopefully just putting out more and more volumes of these anthologies. That would be like a dream come true for me. And I guess the way AI plays into that is, you know, I guess time will tell. We’ll see where AI goes. But right now, I don’t think that AI is capable of really emulating, you know, like the human condition. expressing humanity and these really human moments that we all go through in a really accurate and authentic way. And I think a lot of my work is rooted in my life, my experiences, my people, the things that I’ve done, the anecdotes that I’ve come into. That’s the formula for these essays. I’ll take some kind of story, some kind of narrative about my life. And then I’ll take a lesson about copywriting or creativity, and I’ll see if I could put those together in a kind of flush way in a certain number of words. Those are the three, I guess, prongs or pieces to each one of those essays. And so I think that AI can probably teach the lessons, but it can’t really replicate those really specific human moments that I’m referencing. And so I don’t see it playing a huge part in the future, a very good copy at least.

Rob Marsh: Eddie, thanks for sharing so much about your business and what you’ve been working on, how you grew. I think it’s fascinating and a lot of good lessons to take from that. If somebody wants to get on your list, Join the other 15 to 20,000 people who are there getting your essays, notified about your book. Where should they go?

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, just go to verygoodcopy.com. That’s home base. And that’s where they can get access to the full library. They can subscribe to the newsletter there. They can get on the waitlist for the book there. They can get the course there. That’s home base. So verygoodcopy.com is the place to go for sure.

Kira Hug: Awesome. Thank you, Eddie. Appreciate it.

Eddie Shleyner: Yeah, I appreciate you guys. Thank you.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Eddie Schleiner. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation, give you a little bit more to think about. Eddie mentioned the book that he loved. It’s called the Adweek Copywriting Handbook. That book is also known as Advertising Secrets of the Written Word. It’s actually the same book. There’s two different titles. One was printed by Adweek magazine, and the other I think was printed by Joe. It really is one of the better books about response-driven copy, how you get people to engage emotionally, how to write headlines, how to find ideas. It’s worth picking up your own copy of that book and we’ll link to it in the show notes in case you want an easy link to do that. 

When Eddie mentioned being told by a mentor that he writes like a fire hose and needs to write more like a nail gun, I thought that was a brilliant illustration of the rule of one. As a writer, you can’t write to everyone. You have to write to your prospect, the buyer. Seeing them as a unique person rather than a large group of buyers or people with a particular challenge or problem, it changes the way that we write as copywriters and as content writers. And by the way, the same thing applies to going out there and finding clients. Take the nail gun approach rather than a fire hose approach. You will connect with your prospects better than if you try to talk to everybody in every niche about every kind of project. 

Let’s also talk about this idea of sabbatical. So Kira mentioned that this first came up on the podcast a long time ago when we were talking to Sage Polaris way back on episode 32 when she talked about taking four months off every year. It might be worth a listen if you like that idea. It also came up on episode 68 with Ashlyn Carter and again on episode 285 with Tyler McCall. So check out Those other episodes, 32, 68, 285, if you want to dive more into this idea of taking a sabbatical. The idea of taking time off or away from your business is a powerful one. Whether you do what Eddie did and you focus on a project like writing a book, or you’re just getting away from everything to recharge your batteries and refill the creative tank, it’s worth considering doing. Now, you may not be able to take a month off each quarter or even more than a few days in a quarter or in a year. I still think that it’s helpful to think about taking time away, away from clients, away from your desk, away from projects, away from the laptop, away from pitching and marketing, or even thinking about pitching and marketing. It helps light the fire again if you’re burned out, or it helps you avoid the burnout in the first place. Taking time away for weekends, for evenings, putting the work aside is critically important. Sometimes it’s not even taking away time from your business as much as it is just changing the scenery. So go work somewhere else for a day or two or for a week or two if you can. Go to the library instead of working in your basement or the kitchen table or in your office. Get a hotel room and work there. Go sit in the park if you’ve got a laptop. Just change your environment if you can’t stop working right now. And even if that’s not possible, start planning for a future sabbatical or a week off where you can leave everything behind other than maybe a notebook and a pen and just be off. If you make it happen, I’d really like to hear about it, the impact that it has on your thinking and what you bring back to your business. 

Okay, thanks to Eddie Schleiner for joining us to chat about his business and becoming a copywriter, that process that we all go through. Be sure to check out Eddie. He’s on LinkedIn. He’s also at verygoodcopy.com where you can subscribe to his newsletter and watch for his book coming out in the next couple of weeks.

Most copywriters and content writers don’t give much thought to the client experience beyond getting the information you need to start a project and handing off the copy at as you wrap up. But that’s a mistake. The client experience you create can be a huge differentiator for you and your business. Our guest for the 387th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is Jason Friedman. And what he shared about creating a unique experience for your clients is a total game changer—especially if you want to work with high-end clients. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Jason’s Offer for Copywriters The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: When is the last time you thought about your client’s experience—that is, the experience of working with you from their perspective? What does it feel like to work with you? What are they excited about? Where do they get lost? What do they get and how does that feel? Most copywriters don’t give it a lot of thought to this beyond working out how to get the information you need to start the work and maybe what you deliver to your clients when you’re done writing. Although, if you just deliver a google doc, you probably haven’t thought about that at all.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, my co-founder, Kira Hug, and I interviewed customer experience consultant Jason Friedman. We talked in depth about what it takes to make the customer experience special. And how it is one of the few things you can do to truly differentiate your business from the other two million copywriters out there in the world. I know this is a big promise, but this episode has several ideas that will practically guarantee clients work with you again and again. 

But before we get to that, if you’ve been listening to this podcast for long, you’ve no doubt noticed a recurring theme… how do copywriters and content writers find clients TODAY. Shortly after we launched The Copywriter Club, we created a special report with a bunch of ideas for finding clients and shared it with the world. I recently took a week to rework and revise that report… it now includes more than 21 different ideas for finding clients… some of which you can use today and possibly attract a client in the next 24 hours. Some of the other ideas will take longer to bring in clients. But they all work. We’ve either used them ourselves, or know other successful copywriters who have used each one of these ideas. And we want to give you this report for free. This isn’t a one page pdf that will get lost in your downloads folder. It’s comprehensive… 36 idea filled pages… including the 4 mistakes you can’t afford to make when looking for clients—if you make them, clients will not work with you. It also includes more than 21 ways to find clients, several templates for reaching out to clients, and finally the five things you need to do to improve your odds of landing a client. If you want a copy of this report, visit thecopywriterclub.com/findaclient.

And with that, let’s go to our interview with Jason.

Kira Hug: All right, Jason, let’s kick off with your story. Let’s start with your time working with bands and touring with bands. Let’s start there and then move towards today, because I really want to talk about your time working in the music industry.

Jason Friedman: Absolutely. Well, yeah, so, you know, my background, I was a theater nerd, right? Like, so I went to school for theater. I started doing theater when I was like eight, nine years old at summer camp. And it was just, it was always backstage. So lighting, set design, things like that. And I remember I had just got the bug, like I wanted to be a rock and roll roadie for Rush specifically. And it was like, I remember I got introduced to them by a friend of mine and I was like that nerd. Like I opened the CD case, if you even know, people listen to this, but you don’t even know what a CD is, right? But you open the CD case and on the album jacket, it said Lighting Box. 

And so there was a company name there. I was like, I’m going to work for that company and I’m going to go on tour with Rush and I’m going to do this. And over the years, I’ve just been doing shows and doing performances of all these different things. And when I got out of school, I had the opportunity to do anything. Right. So what did I do? I sent my resume in and I went on an interview with that company and they hired me. And it wasn’t all glamorous. I worked in the shop. I was coiling cables and washing things and just doing all the grunt work. 

But one day came and they said, hey, you want to go out on the road? And I went out with Fleetwood Mac. And it was a small summer tour. It was only like 10 stops, but I was a roadie officially. Like I went out on a rock tour and it was awesome. And then I went out with Rush, which was my dream. And I also went out with Peter Gabriel as a tour and a variety of other smaller groups that probably most people don’t know. But it was this culmination of setting that intention and having that kind of clarity of goal and just knowing that you’re going to do it. And yeah. 

And so it was a wild journey, being out on the road, doing those shows, like being in a situation where you are playing to an audience, right? We all do this in our businesses. We all have an audience. We have customers, we have prospects, but being in that environment where everyone is in a concert, we get there hours earlier, we’re tailgating, we’re sitting there, we’re listening to the songs. We’re so excited about what’s going to happen. 

What would happen if your customers were doing that with your business? They showed up early getting in the mood to learn from you or work with you or do something. And then when they’re there, all the problems in the world fade away and they are so present and they’re so involved and they’re engaged and they’re on their feet, they’re dancing, they’re jumping, they’re singing along, they’re sharing your words and singing your song for you. And then at the end, they go crazy with the standing ovation. 

I grew up with that over and over and over again. It’s intoxicating, right? And so being with these groups, you learn this. It’s like the Mr. Miyagi, wax on, wax off. You start to see the things, the techniques, the tactics that you use that elicit that kind of response night after night with new people, different audiences, different crowds, how you get them that level of engagement. It was pretty cool. And for the people on the team, the employees, there’s no better place to work than when you’re creating that kind of joy and excitement and engagement with people. 

So you see the front stage, what’s going on with the customers and the backstage, what’s going on with the team. And it was amazing. So I started there and then I went on to do some more legit theater. So Fiddler on the Roof, Jesus Christ Superstar, Man of La Mancha, same experience, right? Night after night, getting those audiences to have that kind of experience and have that transformation and playing a role, it was super fulfilling, super exciting.

Rob Marsh: So while we’re talking about that part of your career… that gets me thinking. Obviously, the experience is everything, but there’s so much behind the scenes that goes into creating the experience. I mean lighting is just part of it, right? And as you’re talking about it, I’m thinking about the message that we have as copywriters—or whatever businesses we’re running—is a little bit like the music. We sit down, the musician sits down, writes a song, But then all of this other stuff has to happen to create an experience that is amazing. So talk just a little bit about the elements of how that all comes together. And obviously, the interest is in how you put together a rock concert for someone like Rush or U2 or whatever. But I really want to apply this to my business. What are those elements that I need to be thinking about in order to create an awe experience?

Jason Friedman: Yeah. I love the question. Let me just start off by saying, like defining what I think experience is. So we have a frame of reference to level set, right? So, when I think of the word experience, experience is not something you do. Experience is something that someone has. It’s not the cause, it’s the effect, right? So experience in my mind, a customer experience, it’s the result of all the things you’ve done, right? That allows the customer to feel something. So experience is a customer’s perception of the interactions that they’ve had with your brand, with your business, with your copy, with whatever it is, right? It’s a feeling and it’s their perception of that feeling. 

It changes based on where they start, right? If I come in and I’m having a horrible day, you’re starting with me from a very different place than if I came just off that rock concert and I’m on a high, right? And part of understanding all of these things is how do we bring people in? What is that onboarding, if you will, that gets people in? And how do we look at our different customers or different avatars or personas who are going to be interacting with us, and understanding how to meet them where they are? It’s not a one size fits all approach. And most businesses, most organizations, we kind of treat people that way, which is like, oh, here’s the journey. And here’s how people are going to come into our world. And we just assume it’s going to be a fit for everybody. 

So as we think about this, as you think about your copy, I’m not a world-class copywriter. I wish I was, but I know enough that I try to paint pictures with words. And I try to use as many senses as I can trigger and interact with. And I do that in my copy, but I do that in my business. And so I think about how do I? In a theatrical show, the script is one thing. When the words matter, there’s a script. Right. That’s true. When the words matter, there’s a script. And the beauty of having a script is that as we start to put it together, like in the show. If I want an audience to laugh at exactly this moment, night after night, I can get them there with the script, with the acting, with the scenes, with all the other elements that I put in place. And when I’ve done that, I’ve actually been able to repeat that consistently, reliably with different audiences in different cities, night after night. 

So how does that work? It’s all the elements. It’s the way that the lines are delivered. It’s not just the words written. It’s how the person says them. The actor or actress recites those words. It’s how the other person reacts to those words. It’s the costumes, it’s the lighting, it’s the scenery, it’s the environment, it’s the colors, it’s the textures of things. It enhances the mood and it sets us up. Just like we’re talking about when people come to the rock concert, they get there, they’re tailgating, they’re having a drink or they’re eating some food and they’re playing the different songs in the background and there’s other people singing. All of the environment, all of the elements come together and they affect how someone’s feeling about that situation. 

And so in your business, as you’re writing copy, ask how do I paint that picture for someone where they really have that feeling? Because it’s that’s where that’s where the rubber meets the road. Right. And so what we do with clients all the time is we start at the end. We don’t start at the beginning. We don’t just start writing some copy or start designing a customer journey or deciding what the first moment has to be. We actually go all the way to the end and we say, look, They just finished reading your copy. They just finished attending your show. They just finished an amazing Zoom mastermind meeting, whatever it happens to be. What would the ideal, most amazing customer testimonial be? We call this the ideal customer script, because again, when the words matter, there’s a script. 

So what we want you to do is we want you to script that ideal customer reaction, the best word of mouth testimonial they could ever give it. But we don’t want you to do it based on what most people consider the result.  Most people consider the result like if I’m selling something for weight loss, it’s like I’m going to lose 20 pounds in 30 days. That’s not the result. The result that I want you to focus on is that I feel better in my clothes, that I was the person that was sitting on the couch and my friend would call me to go out and I would say, I’m sorry, I can’t go out tonight because I would dread walking into my closet and seeing that nothing fit me and I didn’t want to go out. But now I’m actually calling my friends saying, hey, let’s go out. I have like all these different clothes I can pick from. I’m actually not sitting on the couch with a shovel of ice cream going to my mouth. I feel good and I’m doing things. I’m active and I’m living my life. We want people to tell that journey. I was nervous when I first started. I’ve tried so many things. So we want the journey, the testimonial, that ideal customer script really illuminates their journey and the emotional rollercoaster ride they went on and shows these mile markers, these moments where they’ve had these transitions all along that way. 

When you’re able to help your clients do that and see that and feel that, now I can reverse engineer the whole journey that the customers go on so that those moments happen for them. I can reverse engineer what has to happen. And that’s how we do it in theater, right? We have the script, we know what we want it to be. Now we say, how do we stage the show? How do we bring that script to life in a way that we get that laugh at exactly that moment, night after night? 

So what we teach people how to do really is build a business operating system that allows them to scale their business. They get consistent results time after time again, that gets the response. Because that marketing, those testimonials, those, when your customers say those, that’s what you’re going to start using on the front end of your funnel. I want you to flip your funnel. I want you to focus on the results that people are getting and become so obsessed with your customer results that that is your marketing. Your experience is your marketing. That’s when we put $1 in ads and we get 20, 40, 60, 100, 1,000 back because we know that the conveyor belt that’s bringing people through your program is going to get results night after night after night.

Kira Hug: So this is fun because it has been a couple of years since we last sat through your workshop. And hearing you talk through this, this is the part that stuck the most. And this is the part where I’ve been quoting Jason for years. But it’s the mile marker piece here and the emotional roller coaster and that we can really reverse engineer that for our customers and clients. Could you talk more about the mile markers and how to view that along the journey from the perspective of a copywriter who’s working in a service based business and is thinking, if I’m working with this client over the next month, delivering a sales page, how should I think about these mile markers?

Jason Friedman: Yeah. You’re going to have to help me with this a little bit. We’ll do this together, right? So I’ll, I’ll be the client and you’re probably the copywriter cause I haven’t worked that way, but I have worked with copywriters and I’ve been in that. I think the biggest thing, like when you’re thinking about a journey, is let’s start at the beginning. The most important thing in the beginning, we have a first impression, right? First impressions matter. It sounds very cliche, but it really does. It sets the tone for everything. And so we have to think about onboarding in the beginning, right? 

Now, I believe that onboarding actually happens many times in the relationship with a customer, with a spouse, with friends, with everybody, right? Onboarding is something that you do every time there’s a transition in the relationship. So when I first come into your world, before I hired you, you have to onboard me into your universe. I might only be problem aware, I might be solution aware, I might be brand aware, but we have three different kinds of people that maybe coming in and they’re at different places. So how do I bring them in and get them to a place where we kind of have a baseline to have a conversation? So there’s onboarding that happens there. 

Now let’s say you hire me, right? Now I have to do an onboarding there because the relationship just transitioned again. And now there might be another major transition where we finished our first project, now we’re going to a second project. There might be another onboarding that happens there. So onboarding is something I like to think of as how do I welcome people in and set and manage expectations and set things up for success as a key shift in a relationship, right? So onboarding is going to happen all the time. 

Now, onboarding is not logistics and housekeeping, although most people believe that it is. And so imagine that I just hired you. You’re my copywriter. And you’re like, awesome, Jason. Here’s everything that I need from you and everything you have to do. I just hired this person. You just gave me seven months worth of homework. I want to die. Why did I hire this person? So what we need to do in onboarding is we need to bite size our onboarding in a way that brings people in. We want to bring people in. We want to set expectations. but we want to guide them through an experience that doesn’t overwhelm, right? Because when someone buys something from you, when someone signs a contract, they buy a product, a service, an online course, offline course, it doesn’t matter. I believe that is an intention, not a commitment. It’s an intention, not a commitment. 

And so part of that onboarding is like buyer’s remorse is going to set in pretty quickly. Did I make the right decision? The itty bitty shitty committee inside their head is going to start going in cycles wondering, is this the right thing? And so we have to help them reassure and reaffirm that it was a good decision. And if we’re overloading them and overwhelming them, we’re going to do ourselves a disservice, right? So just psychologically speaking, like we’re dealing with cognitive biases. They may have stuff that happened in the past when they hired someone that’s coming up for them because it feels similar. And now you’re maybe at a disservice because they were used to it, they got that with a hot copywriter before. And that was, they almost had the same email. And now they’re like, Oh my God, that didn’t work out. This is going to be bad. So we have to think about those things. Like they’re coming with their own baggage with their own experience. 

So what I, what I like people to do is I want you to find, we call it the time to first value. I want you to find the fastest, shortest way to get them a win as soon as someone starts with So that first mile marker, like you’re going to give them some onboarding, you’re going to welcome them in. And then the first thing I want you to do is, how do I get them a win? Now, what is a win? A win is a perception of success. And it’s not going to be that they got their first bit of copy finished and it’s awesome. That’s a big, big, big win, right? That’s down the road. What’s a little win that gets them to say, wow, this is good. This is working. 

So as you start to think about that, I want you to think of these mile markers as wins or key milestones that someone sees that they’re moving in the right direction. They have momentum. They’re making forward progress. Right. And so if you wrote that script already, you know what some of those key moments are going to be because you put yourself in the shoes of the customer. You looked at it from their lens. One of the tricks that we like to do is use theater again. Imagine that you’re Matthew McConaughey and you’re playing this character on stage. How do you get into character? I want you to think about that. I want you to think like if you were going to be your customer, you were going to go to the grocery store as your customer, what would you be thinking when you walked into the grocery store? What kind of mood would you be in? What car did you drive in with? How would you, you know, what do you dress as? How do you feel? Are you, are you someone that’s going to say hello to everybody? Or are you going to kind of be in your own place and not looking around? We need to know how you could believably portray your character on stage, like Matthew McConaughey. 

And so as you start to put yourself in that role, what would that first win be? What do I need to feel confident and say, wow, this was great? And so you’re going to do that with your script, and then you’re going to reverse engineer and start saying, what is that first win? What’s the next cool thing? And as you start to look at all these things, you can really analyze what success looks like. 

Now, the other mistake that I see most people make is that we measure against the ultimate result. So it’s like, oh, I didn’t get there yet. When you measure against the ideal result, it’s always going to be a negative number until you get there. It’s never going to be enough. So I want you to actually measure from where people started. Because it’s always going to then be a positive number. I’ve made progress to here. Now I’m here. And so our job, if we want our customers to feel good and see the momentum and see that they’re making progress with us, we have to show them. We have to communicate that. 

So in your copywriter example, how do I know what those key stages are? And how do I know? Oh, awesome. I’m on step three. We’ve already made it through step three and we’re only in two. That’s awesome. That’s amazing. Right. And let’s say that step four is going to be much bigger to get from step three to step four is going to take longer. That’s a bigger lift. Well, I accurately communicate those expectations. I set and manage those expectations. Because it’s like I think about it like in our business, like what we help people do is figure out how do we create this perfect journey, right? This ideal journey that gets people from point A to point B and allows it to be as smooth as possible, right? So imagine that you’re on a water slide at a pool. You go down this crazy water slide, you’re at a cool resort, but there’s not quite enough water. And so you get stuck and you chafe a little bit, right? And then all of a sudden, they realize, oh, there’s a lot of friction there. It’s not working. And they turn up the water. And all of a sudden, the water starts flowing, and you start going, and you’re going up and down. And even if you’re going uphill, there’s enough movement and momentum that you keep going smoothly and fluidly through that experience. We want your journey to be that fluid experience. We need to remove and reduce as much friction along that journey. 

So if you think about it from your customer’s perspective, what are the hardest parts? Part of it is not knowing what the next step is. Part of it might not be not knowing where we’re headed or when we’re going to get there. Part of it might be that you’re off in your own place doing all this amazing work. You’re researching, you’re writing, you’re testing, you’re doing all the things, but we don’t know because we’re not seeing it real time. So we don’t know what’s going on. So communication might be, oh my gosh, I just had some amazing things. Like here’s a little snippet. I can’t wait to share the rest of it with you. It might be that showing that you’re engaged and you’re excited that gets them to feel really you know, part of the process with you that there’s like a little bit of co-creation going on, maybe, or maybe it’s just updates. It depends on the client, right? But as you think about that journey, like, how do you make it better? 

So if the step three to step four is a bigger lift, it’s like you need to build up a little more momentum to get them over that hump. If you’re driving a car, if you hit the accelerator, and you’re holding it at a steady pace, you’re just going and all of a sudden you hit a hill, you have to hit the accelerator more to get up that hill. So what do you do between step three and four to give it a little bit of a boost for them to know this is a longer spot or this is a harder piece. Or once we get to this place, it’s all downhill and it’s gonna be smooth sailing. It’s just gonna take a little longer. So bear with me, here’s what we’re gonna do. I’m gonna check in with you, you know, once a week for the next three weeks and just kind of keep you up on the progress. If you have any questions, you know, whatever that is. But you’re setting and managing those expectations all the way through, those mile markers help them. 

And when you share things that will help them feel confident about the work that you’re doing, like maybe it’s like those, like those little nuggets of like some samples or some little pieces or just letting them feel reassured that you’re on the same page. And we’re like, what I’m going to see when it comes out is actually going to be aligned with what I’m looking for. You’re going to find that they’re pretty happy and they’re pretty excited about it. And those are things that they’ll probably tell other people about later because it meant something. Not everyone else is doing that, right?

Kira Hug: It’s so amazing because I’m so proud of my onboarding. I have my email and it has all the things my clients need to do for me and it’s really well organized and it actually works pretty well. But when I hear you talk about it this way, I’m like, I’m overwhelming them at step one. Could I break it up and just give them a piece of it? And could I also create some type of roadmap of visual because I’m a visual person to show them all the steps and to track like, here’s where we are. What do you recommend?

Rob Marsh: At the very least, Kira, you need to be sending them like a protein bar so they have the energy to get through it.

Kira Hug: It’s interesting too because I thought I was doing a good job by being organized and just getting it all in one email because otherwise I’m worried they’re going to lose emails and it’s all scattered. But it sounds like that actually isn’t the most efficient way of doing this.

Jason Friedman: Every business is different. And so I think you’re right to be thinking about it. And most of us are like, oh, I’m doing a great job. Nobody’s complaining. That’s not necessarily the best measure of success. How long does it take people to complete? Could they get it done faster and would it make them feel better and you if we did it and we broke it up? Now, some of us also like to bin. Can we like it all in one email? So maybe when you first talk to me, say, hey, listen, I want to actually tailor the onboarding experience to you. 

Let me ask you three questions so I know how to best set you up for success. And you actually tailor that. If it’s someone that says, look, give me everything at once, organized neatly, that’s great. Or it’s like, hey, listen, I like to like, you know, I like to kind of break it up. So, you know, it might be that, right. And it might be like that. There’s something that they do when they submit step one, step two, step three, and it just triggers another note back saying, awesome, congratulations, you finished step one. As you know, from our initial email, this is your next step. Looking forward to hearing back or whatever. It could be that, I don’t know. Again, I don’t know your specific process, but think about it from that perspective. where it can be more like choosing your own adventure, right? It’s like, I can go and do it as I want. And some of us like to binge, right? So like, if I’m doing all this and I decide, hey, you know what, Saturday is my day, I’m gonna kind of get everything set up for Kira so that I have all the stuff in place, then I might want everything in one spot, or at least know that I have all the information, but here’s my first mission, is this. So just look at it through the lens of the customer. Because what you said is exactly how we all think. I organized it. I made sure that’s all clear and whatever, because it’s easier for me as the business to have it all clean and then get it off my plate and get it over to you. It’s just writer’s logic versus reader’s logic. 

You know what you’re saying. You know what you’re thinking. But are they getting the same message when they read that thing? So I would just encourage anybody. How do I make it better for my customers so that they feel that it’s not overwhelming? And it could be calling it out, saying, hey, listen, congratulations, this is the first step. We’re so excited you’re working with us. Iin order to give you the big overview, I’ve actually attached a document that has everything that you need to do. But for right now, I really need you to focus on these two things. So you can do both. I think it’s just, it’s just thinking about your avatars. And if you have different avatars in your business, how do I mass customize it? How do I make it so that they all feel like it’s done the way that they most need it? And there’s probably a way to do it where, like I just gave that example, maybe you have both within one email and they’re covered.

Rob Marsh: Jason, as we’re talking about this customer experience, I want to go back to your story and your career path because I think it’s really helpful to see other examples, maybe outside of the copywriting world, the marketing world, where you are basically producing these kinds of customer experiences. So as you look you left the theater world—or maybe you never really left the theater world because that’s really what you’re doing—instead of doing it for Broadway shows, I know you started doing some of this stuff in retail environments. Will you tell us how your career evolved from there?

Jason Friedman: When I, when I started I was brought in to help bring theatricality to retail. So we were bringing in technology like lighting and sound and scent you know, like, because they wanted to kind of zhuzh it up, if you will, right? It started, I’m going to date myself right now, but this was in 1997, 1998. And so at that time, online shopping was just becoming a thing, right? I know many people listening to this probably don’t remember a time when you couldn’t go on Amazon, but it was pre Amazon. And so what they wanted to do was make sure that people came to their store and they found value in being in the store versus just going to some random online, shop. And so the first client was Foot Locker. And they brought us in to help them create what we were calling a store of the future at the time. Like what would an ideal shopping experience look like? How would we take the current shoe store shopping experience and make it be something special so that it would beat the online market?

Rob Marsh: And at the time, shoe stores were like racks of shoes. You’d walk in and that was it.

Jason Friedman: There were boxes stacked up. There was like a sample on top of that. They had some merchandising along the walls, like slat wall design and whatever. It was mildly functional. So they had a bunch of extra inventory in the back and you had shoe jockeys running back and forth, getting stuff and trying to help you and kind of ignoring you when they were helping somebody else. And it was, it was messy. So we did some work and really started to understand what would be the ideal experience for people? They wanted to find what they wanted quickly, but what we also learned was that as people spent more time, shopping and browsing in the store, you know, feeling good about it, excited and engaged in it, they would actually spend more money. The average order value would go up, right? Makes sense. 

So we, we redesigned the store quite dramatically, where it would tell stories. And so imagine that the store actually kind of came to life. So you’d walk in the store, and you would feel like you should go to the left, you could go to the right, but you’d feel like you should go to the left. And so the store was kind of guiding you in, and it was partially the way the merchandising was set up. It was partially the way the lighting was moving you, like it was actually moving you through there. Audio was moving around the space, and you just kind of felt like naturally this is the way to go. And as you go through, TV screens and sounds and whatever, the store would come to life. 

And it was about athleticism. So we had media that we were producing that would get you in the mood and would be stuff about basketball and, you know, elevating your heartbeat and all sorts of fun stuff. And everything was organized in a different way. And we would feature different products, the way lighting would focus on it. So if you know the Foot Locker, they have this like a crazy, like referee guy is like their logo and he has like a whistle hanging out. So all of a sudden you’re like tweet, tweet, tweet. And then all the lights would pivot and go and they’d highlight a specific product. And then a promotion would come up on the screens for it. 

Now, what was happening is people were actually excited about the store. They were going and they would look at the products that were being featured. It was organized in a way that let them find things and was also exciting for them to go and discover more things. So they weren’t just there. They came in like, I want to find this shoe. And they said, wow, like, let me see what else they have. And so what ended up happening through that first store that we built is they had a 400 percent increase in sales. Wait, what? Boom. So they’re like, OK, that’s crazy. Let’s try this again. Let’s do another pilot. The first one we did was in Watertown, Massachusetts, just outside Boston. The second one we did was in Oakbrook, Illinois, just outside Chicago. Same store, same design, different demographic, same results, 400% increase in same-store sales. Boom. And then they’re like, all right, let’s do one more. So then we did one more just outside of New York City in Stanford, Connecticut. Same results, 400% increase. Boom. And so we had figured something out. We figured out a formula of how we would engage people. 

Remember, this started out by wanting to make it more theatrical. Let’s hang some screens. Let’s put some TVs in. And what we asked was, if someone saw the screen, what would you have them do? What would you want them to do next? And they couldn’t answer that in the beginning. But over lots of conversation and really understanding it through the lens, it’s like, well, what would the customer want? What would be awesome for them? What would get them to want to be in the store more? When they leave, what would get them to not only have a positive experience and feel good, but what would get them to go to their friends and say, wow, you’ve got to go to check this store out, because that’s what was happening. We were getting foot traffic because of word of mouth, because it went viral within their little communities of what was happening. Anyway, fade out, fade in, we ended up doing like 1,000 plus stores all across the country, different levels of investment. We had a flagship A store, then a slightly less expensive B, C, D, based on the market and the size and the footprint and the real estate. But it was super successful. And from that, Rob, we ended up getting called by lots of different brands. 

What it really was, was how do you tell these compelling stories that engage your customers to be more present, to buy more products, to invest in the relationship in a bigger way? And we ended up doing it not just with retail, but hospitality, so theme parks, restaurants, spas, financial institutions, And then ultimately universities, we ended up working with them on raising funds for their endowments. Stanford was a big client, Duke, Yale, Harvard, tons of universities, and helping to tell their story and create an experience for their donors that would actually want them to learn more about the initiatives and not just give money to put their name on a building for the vanity of it, but actually care about the costs. And so we started to bring causes and bring those stories to life through the same formula. It’s the same formula that I’m talking about to write the copy and make that experience better for the customer. It doesn’t matter. It’s online, it’s offline, it’s events, it’s retail, it doesn’t matter. It’s the same formula.

Kira Hug: So let’s talk about shifts in the customer experience space. I know that we had chatted before we hit record on how you’ve adjusted some of your programs and teaching. So I’m curious, has anything shifted over the last few years where you’re teaching in a different way or we should be aware of different things as we think about our customer experience?

Jason Friedman: The world is evolving rapidly, as we all know. I’m sure you guys talk a lot about AI nowadays, right? It’s the great equalizer right now. And, you know, we’ve had this happen many times, uh, since we’ve all been, you know, on the planet and it’s going to continue down the road, right. There’s going to be new things down the road. What is very ironic about all of this—so 25 years ago, I remember saying to a group that I was speaking to, you know what? Customer experience is the most impactful, best way to differentiate your business in the marketplace. It will allow you to rise above your competition. For 25 years, I’ve been saying that. It’s more important today than it ever has been before. I’m still saying that. Today, I mean it even more than I meant it then, and I meant it then. 

Here’s the thing. Anybody can put a bunch of prompts into chat GPT or wherever you want to use as your AI tool, and they can create a program, they can create a course, they create a sales letter, they can create a sales page and have it done in just a matter of minutes. What’s going to make them hire you as their copywriter? What’s going to make them hire me as their coach or as the course that they choose to learn? It’s going to be the results that they get. And it’s going to be about how they feel as they’re going through that journey. It’s the conflation of both of those things that really sets people apart. And I believe that’s the experience that you create. I know that the experience you create, it is your fingerprint. It is your differentiating point. It is what creates your blue ocean, if you will, in your business. 

And so for all of us today, if we want to have that staying power, if we want to have that longevity, we need customers who love working with us. We need customers who actually become our sales who share their experience with others, who bring other people in. Word of mouth is amazing. It’s important. It’s one of the best possible ways to do it. And when your marketing is the stories of your successful clients, when those become your marketing and your experience is what they’re sharing, when we talk about that ideal customer script, they’re really sharing their journey, you will have an exponential growth in your business. 

Every dollar that you put into the front end of the funnel becomes many more returns on the back And so what we do today is we’ve been doing the same thing for a really long time, teaching people this formula. But we’ve enhanced the formula. We’ve learned a lot over the years. And where we were kind of focusing primarily on customer experience before, we’re really focusing more on that kind of customer obsession over positive results. Right. And so what we’re helping you, like if you’ve got a business where you need retention, right, if you have a membership or a subscription or something like that, this will help you. 

If you’ve got a business where you want people to buy another engagement or upgrade to another platform or another level of service, this will help you. If you’ve got a business where, you know, having a sales force is expensive, this will help you. This will turn your existing customers into your sales Right. We talk about this, this ideal result. It’s when they rave about your business. It’s when they return to buy more products from you. It’s when they renew their products and services and it’s when they recruit others to come and buy from you. Right. It’s not a referral. It’s a recruit. It’s active. It’s engaging. They’re going out and they’re, they’re selling for you because they had a transformation. And we’re all in this for the transformation. That’s why we do the work we’re doing, right? I’m not in this for the money. Money is a nice, you know, nice measurement. It’s a nice yardstick. We got to eat, we got to put food on the table. But I want to help more entrepreneurs, I want to help more small business owners, I want to help more copywriters get bigger, better results. And so as I’m doing it, I have to get those results. So for me, they have to win. Otherwise, they’re not going to buy more stuff from me, they’re not going to tell more people about me. 

And so we help people understand how to shift the funnel, like flip the funnel and put the focus on the inside of the business. All the gurus, all the marketing teachers, everybody out there is teaching us how to get more leads, how to optimize for conversions. And that’s important. It’s definitely important. But let’s say that you’ve optimized everything and then people come in and they don’t like the experience. They ask for a refund, they exercise the guarantees and the warranties and all of those things. When you really look at the cost of acquisition, when you start factoring all those defectors and all of those refunders and all those things in, it’s not such a rosy, pretty picture. And all of our budget is going to strangers. How much of our budget and our time and our focus goes to the people who said yes. And when we do focus our time and our energy on the people who said yes, and we flip that funnel, we really focus on the inside, then once you’ve optimized and done all that great work, now I’ve got a consistent machine that’s bringing people through getting results, and they’re going to keep filling the funnel. 

So my cost of acquisition goes way, way, way, way down. And my cost of delight, like I can put more of my energy here, because I’m saving so much money here. It’s unbelievable. Like if you look at just the online business marketplace, right, people that are selling courses, Only 3 to 15% of buyers actually get results from the programs. And there’s a huge percentage of buyers that never even crack the seal. They never even start the program or get going. 

So if we started focusing on how we optimize that side of our business instead of just optimizing people that give us a few dollars up front, every dollar that comes in up front will be worth many, many more dollars. And so what we’re trying to do really is create that awareness. And in our program, you know, we call it the kinetic customer formula. I want customers who are in momentum, right? And so, you know, potential energy, energy with potential, not in motion, kinetic energy, energy that’s in motion, that’s taking action. And so we teach people this kind of way to put this operating system into their business that delivers these results consistently.

Kira Hug: I’m going to ask a quick follow up before, I don’t want to dwell on this for too long, but can you speak to just shifts in the online marketing space? We know it’s a tougher market now. Customers are more skeptical because you’ve shared those stats because so many of them don’t get the results that they’ve paid for in the past. It’s just crowded now. It’s shifted. So could you just speak to what you’ve observed in that shift? it relates to what you’re doing and makes it an obvious solution. You have to improve your customer experience. Otherwise, you’re not going to last today. It’s just the market’s not there anymore.

Jason Friedman: 100% like and beyond the experience, right? You have to get them results. People need to get the results. And so that’s why I keep saying it’s more important today than it ever has been before. And it’s true. So like, here’s what I’ve observed, right? Take some of the big marketing gurus out there, right? I’m not going to name drop anybody. I’m good friends with a lot of them. And I think they’re awesome. But when you look at how their business has shifted, the way they used to sell their products was through affiliate relationships. So they’d have other marketers that have an email list and they would promote for them. And the big guys would promote the big guys. 

Well, the big guys are not promoting the big guys as much because they don’t have room on their calendar. And so what you see as a shift is the people that are winning affiliate contests and leaderboards and are getting the biggest results are the customers of those gurus that are teaching it who actually use their system and got the results. Now think about that. That’s what I’m teaching you how to do, really. How do you turn customers into your superhero? So your customers are actually getting those amazing results, and then they want to tell other people. And then you’re putting them in a system where you can reward and recognize them for even doing that further, right? And so what you’re seeing as a shift is the big online space, like the affiliate, you know, universe, joint venture universe, and that the ones that are having the biggest success with that are the ones whose customers got results from using the program, and then they’re sharing it with their audiences. And they’re doing it, again, in that recruit, not in a refer. 

It’s not passive. They actively get behind promotions because it has changed their life. They feel an obligation or a duty because they’re not just helping someone make more money. They’re sharing their journey of how they actually had a transformation and how it affected their life. And that’s what we’re talking about with the ideal customer script in a nutshell, right? And I’ve been working with some of these gurus as well to help them do this, right? Because that’s the way, right? When your customers get the results and they wanna tell other people, that’s what’s gonna help you win. 

And so in the online marketplace, with all the crowdedness, with all the noise, the way that you’re, like, if you’re looking for someone to clean your house, you go on Facebook, you know, local Facebook group, right? And say, hey, does anyone have a great person? You don’t know, you’re taking a referral from a friend, right? Like that’s how we do things. Like we look for the social proof. Now, if the social proof and those testimonials and those case studies and whatever become really expository about their journey and how they were going across that, you start to relate to those even more and you start to buy into them and you can see yourself actually having those success stories, right? Like hearing that someone lost 20 pounds, you’re not seeing your journey in that. You’re like, okay, great. I know a lot of people lost 20 pounds. I’ve tried this a thousand times. But when you hear about the struggles they had, and you’re like, oh my gosh, that’s my story. Wait, they did it? I can do this. Oh my gosh. This is different. The way this person’s teeth, that would work for me. I understand that. Wow. Like a light bulb, breakthrough, right? That’s what’s helping people take action and move forward. It’s that they’re seeing themselves, and they can understand and relate to it in a different way. 

And so as we start to understand what those results really are, how to better quantify or qualify the results. And it’s not just about the 20 pounds. It’s about the way they feel in their skin. It’s about how they show up. It’s about how their life’s going to change. And you tell that story, but you tell it with the hero’s journey that they went through, if you will, the struggles and the epiphanies and the moments. People, people fall in love with that and they connect with it. And that’s how we, that’s what we want. We want to help people, you know, so as an entrepreneur, as a, as a small business owner, my goal is to help more people. And the reason that we do what we do, it’s like, I believe that entrepreneurs like us, all of us here and those of us listening, we got into this to help other people and make some money along the way. And I’m going to change the world by helping other people who are also going to change the world. We can’t do it alone, right? We have to do it through other people. 

And so I just, I know that this is the way to do it. And I’m passionate about it because, you know, it’s funny when I was, 17 years old, my best friend, Drew, who’s my business partner. We’ve been best friends since we’re about five, six years old. We joke about it like, you know, it’s the longest marriage that either of us has been able to sustain because we weren’t so successful in our actual marriages. But we were driving down the road in my 1985 Pontiac Trans Am. We called it Thunder Chicken. That’s a story for another time. But we had just gone to do something for his dad. He’d given us something to take to the bank and deposit a check. And they just wouldn’t let us deposit this check. and they made it so hard. And we were trying to give them money that would make them more money. And it was like roadblock, friction, friction, obstacle. No, no, no, no. And we just sat there and we’re like, why does this happen? Like, why do businesses make it so hard to do business with us? This is crazy. We had that epiphany then, and we had come up with this dream of a business called Making It Better. Like someday we were going to have a business called Making It Better. And actually, as we look at all the different businesses we’ve had and the different markets and the different things we’ve done, most of them have been really successful. We’ve had a couple of flops. But the theme, the through line of every single one of those businesses is that. It’s how do we make it better for our customers? How do we make it better for ourselves, for our families, for our employees? And I think when you look at things through that lens and you remove the friction, you reduce the obstacles to people having success, amazing things come out of that. 

And so I think today in this market, as you’re looking at your business, ask yourself that tough question. Am I making it hard for my customers to have success with me? And how do you find those friction points, those moments that are a little harder that I can either reduce them or remove them? And you’ll start seeing massive, massive improvements pretty much immediately.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve got a whole list of ways that I make it hard for people to do business with.

Jason Friedman: Don’t do it and don’t be so rough. Yeah, don’t be so rough. Just start just one at a time. Just start picking them off.

Rob Marsh: It’s amazing what’ll happen. We’ve got, yeah, we’ve got work to do. Okay. We’re going to run out of time, but I really would love to just quickly step through the kinetic customer formula, if you’re willing to share some of those steps that we can think through this on our own. And then obviously you’ve got some resources that we can share if people want to find out more, but tell us a little bit more about the formula.

Jason Friedman: Absolutely. I’m going to give you the quick 10 cent version, right? So there’s four key things that four factors. There’s attitudes, which are how people are thinking and expecting about your business. There’s behaviors, the things that they’re doing to get results. There’s friction, the things that are slowing them down or stopping them from achieving those goals, those goals with those results. And there’s momentum, how do we actually give them those extra boosts. And the combination of those four things are what we help people put into a very specific process to clean that up. 

So if you’re going to try and implement what we’re teaching and kind of think about it, literally start at the end, write that ideal customer script. What do you want that person to say and how would they share their journey and use your best copywriting skills? Make it juicy, paint pictures with the words that people are seeing that journey through the words that you write in that script. That’s the first thing. 

Then we’re gonna reverse engineer that. So we’re gonna look at like in order for them to get those results that say that script, what behaviors do they need to do? So if you’re designing it from scratch, you do that. If you’re not, the first thing you do is you look at your existing journey and you write out everything they do at every step along the way. When you do this exercise, critically important, you’re doing it from the vantage point of the customer, right? So for example, it’s not send them an email, it’s receive an email, right? See the nuance there. So it’s through the lens of the customer. map out everything they do from beginning to end, and then go deep on each one of those doings, right? So you’re asking, what are they thinking and expecting when they do that? Who are they interacting with when they do that? What are they using when they do that? And how are they feeling, most important? 

What you’ll start to see is you’ll start to see this rollercoaster ride of emotions that they go on. And so after you’ve done that, what I want you to do is go through and find the friction. Like, where is it hard? Where do they get stuck? And you’ll be able to easily identify that when you look at the tension that’s created between feelings and thinking and expecting, right? And I’m thinking, expecting one thing, but it’s not actually happening. Okay, there’s probably an expectation mismatch there, right? And so what we might have to do is go a couple steps back and set a different expectation, right? Or if they’re feeling unsure, they might need a momentum boost, or we’ll put another step in there, maybe that’ll help them feel more confident and understand what’s going to happen. Like we were saying about the difference between step three and step four of copywriting, if there’s a long lag, I’ve got to give some communication steps in there maybe. 

So you might add a few steps. That make sense? So you’re going to start to look at all those, map those out, go deep on each one. What are they doing? What are they thinking, expecting? What are they using? Who are they interacting with? And how are they feeling? And then once you’ve done that, like I said, find the friction points. And look at the ones that are going to remove the biggest obstacles. Take out the biggest obstacles first and go deep. There’s a lot of nuance to this. There’s a lot more steps. I know we don’t have a whole lot of time, but this will get you started and get you going in the right way. And pay special attention to the transitions. So look at your onboarding, that first transition. Like really make sure that you make it easy for people to get started. And make sure that as it gets harder, either the relationships get stronger so that it’s worth the fight, or that their skills are getting stronger, so that they’re able to do the harder work, whichever it happens to be for your business, right? If it’s always so easy, we’ll lose interest. Also, if it gets too hard, we’ll lose interest. It has to be in this, we call this the flow channel, where the degree of difficulty and the degree of effort and skill are increasing together in lockstep.

Rob Marsh: And I appreciate, too, what you said when we were just starting out talking, Jason, about looking at this journey, not just from the purchase, but from the very first engagement, because there’s a ton of things that happen between that first engagement and a purchase where we introduce friction or we’re not even thinking about a customer experience. So thinking through this process from day one, day zero, I’m about to meet you to result, I think could be really helpful.

Jason Friedman: I love that, Rob. And I would, I would even say, go back to day negative 180, like go backwards. And like, when someone’s having a problem, like, because if you, again, if you get into character, if you do what I say, like you kind of Matthew McConaughey here, right? If you get into that spot, you have to know what brought them to that day. right, where they started to learn and they started to go back further. The insights are tremendous. And you might actually build a customer for life just in your sales process at that point, because you can really connect with them on a much deeper level, and authentically deliver what they need, while selling them what they want in a way that’s so profound, that they really they just the reciprocity is just kind of baked in from the get go. So super powerful, really good point.

Kira Hug: There’s so many takeaways from this conversation. Just thinking about my onboarding, which I’ve been so proud of and thinking of new ways to evolve. It’s just a good reminder that there’s always more to learn and to improve. And even the testimonials you’re talking about. As copywriters, we can rewrite testimonials for clients, of course, get approvals, but we can create them as transformations rather than just these are the results. So I think that’s another power move for copywriters with their clients or for their own products. And so many other takeaways for anyone who wants more information from you, Jason, or wants to jump into a program or course. Where should they go to learn more?

Jason Friedman: Awesome. Thanks. You can definitely check us out at CXformula dot com. If you’d like to get a little bit more information about us, but I have a little present for your people. I’m going to use a copy technique. I’m not going to tell you what it is. I’m going to tease you. 

If you go to gift.cxformula.com/copyclub, there’s a PDF there. It will take you less than 10 minutes to go through. But it’s got a really killer strategy that is going to actually have you ask some different questions about your business and it will change the way you think in a very positive way. So I encourage you to read it. And then it will also give you some ways to like immediately, actionably implement this strategy in your business. 

I ask two favors. Favor one, if you download it, actually look at it. Like, I don’t want this to be shelfware that just sits on your computer hard drive and gets stale someday. So just take a look at it.

Rob Marsh: You know us so well, Jason.

Kira Hug: Yeah. I think you’ve been around for a while.

Rob Marsh: There’s that friction again, right there.

Jason Friedman: Not my first rodeo. So fight through the pain, it will be worth it. I promise you when you get to the other side, you’d be like, that was a really interesting question. I love this. And number two, I’m going to send you an email that gives you this thing. When you put in your information, if you use it or you like it, or you don’t like it, tell me what you think. I actually am very curious about how people are using this so that I can help more people. So that’s it. I know it’s going to be helpful. I know it’s pretty cool. Um, and, uh, I really would love to see how you’re using it.

Rob Marsh: I’m downloading it right now. I’m already intrigued by the title. Yeah. So I’m on it.

Jason Friedman: So did I do good in the copy?

Rob Marsh: Pretty good. Yeah. I might, I might send you a way or two to improve. No. It looks good. I’m just teasing.

This has been eye-opening, like the last time we talked. I just remember walking away thinking, holy crap, I’ve got so much work to do here. 

Jason Friedman: Don’t beat yourself up, just start fixing, because I think that’s the approach. 

Rob Marsh: And I just really appreciate the level of thought that you bring to the customer journey. And it’s something that way too many of us as service providers who just like to send our customers Google Docs, We don’t really think about that experience. And so there’s just a ton here that’s really valuable. Jason Friedman: Thank you for that. Thanks for having me, guys. Really appreciate it.

Kira Hug: Thanks, Jason.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of our interview with Jason Friedman. I want to add just a couple of thoughts to our conversation. I don’t know if this is going to extend a lot of what Jason was talking about, but just some thoughts that occurred to me. 

At one point, Jason mentioned the idea that experience is not something that you do. It’s something the customer has. This is a really big idea in my opinion. A lot of copywriters who have worked in agency environments have the experience of working with clients on a level that’s really different from what most freelancers do. In the agency, you invite clients into the office oftentimes or you’ll go to their office to present oftentimes. There’s a lot of drama built into it. They serve lunch or drinks. If you’ve watched Mad Men, you’ve seen this yourself. They’ll show a video or they show all of the work and it’s all mounted on black boards and it’s very professional and feels very high touch, white glove kind of thing. But a lot of us as freelancers, we don’t ever even think about what that level of experience means to our clients. Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that we need to be presenting over lunch or that everything needs to be fancy, but there’s something that happens in that client experience where they are being treated differently. They are sort of being wined and dined just a little bit that is worth emulating in the businesses that we have all built. So again, not saying you need to take your clients out to lunch in order to present, but maybe there’s something you can do that’s just a little bit different, that creates a slightly different experience. Maybe instead of presenting on plain Google Docs, you are presenting your work on branded documents of some kind, and you’re showing up obviously on video or in some other ways to present it. So you’re not just throwing a Google Doc over the fence and letting the client sort of figure it out on their own. If that’s not what you’re doing, there may be other things that we can do during the process to make that experience of working with us different, higher end, or just feel really good. It’s definitely something worth considering and thinking about as you consider how you work with your clients. 

Again, we start with that ideal customer testimonial, which is based on the transformation, not just the work that you do, but the results that you get and asking, where can you find these wins in the process? Is it during the initial interviews and on the sales call? Is it before that? Is it as you’re working with that call and going through your scorecard or your diagnostic process? Is it something that you’re doing with the research and presenting the research? Is it as you’re outlining and writing the drafts? Think about different ways that you can increase your customers’ experience or positive experiences throughout that process. 

Lastly, I just want to repeat that formula that we talked about with Jason because I think each of these four elements is really important when we talk about this customer experience. Number one, attitudes, the beliefs that they have, behaviors, what they do to get the results is number two. Friction, what’s slowing them down and causing them problems or making things hard for both you and for them. 

Finally, momentum, what keeps them going? What are the things that you can do to keep them excited about working with you? Of course, you’re doing all of this from the customer’s vantage point, not from ours. Oftentimes, when we think about customer experience, we look at it from what we’re doing and we are creating that experience. Going back to what Jason said earlier, it’s not something you do, it’s not something you create, it’s something the customer has and engineering that from their standpoint. 

Thanks to Jason Friedman for joining us to chat about client experiences and how to improve them. Make sure that you take advantage of his free giveaway at gift.cxformula.com/copyclub. I believe that’s all one word. I downloaded it. You should too. And when it arrives in your inbox, don’t let it gather dust.

Some people just get stuff done while others get to the end of the day, look back, and wonder what they did all day. On the 386th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Rob’s talk with brand builder, prolific content creator, and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda revealed her secrets for getting stuff done, creating fly wheels (instead of funnels) to keep moving readers to other parts of her business, and adding a thousand subscribers to her newsletter every month. She calls it realistic productivity—the kind you can do when you’re running your own business and have three kids—and you’ll want to hear how she does it. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Life’s a Game (Amanda’s course) Hypefury Taplio The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: Some people seem to have an other worldly ability to get stuff done. While the rest of us struggle through our daily to-do lists and often fail to check off more than one or two items, they post great, well-thought out content several times a day to social media, they create new products, regular emails, launch and promote courses, and maybe even crank out a few pages for the book they’re working on. 

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I sat down with brand builder, creator and fractional CMO Amanda Goetz. Amanda is one of those people who just gets stuff done. She’s running three different content businesses, writing a book, taking on work as a part-time CMO and is launching a course in a couple of days. So how does she get it all done? We talked about the systems she uses to produce her weekly newsletters and daily social media content so that it all gets written in one day a month, plus an hour or two a week to schedule posts. And her system has helped her grow her newsletter by about 1000 new subscribers every month. If you produce content to support or grow your own business, you’re definitely going to want to hear what she has to say.

But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days.

Now, let’s jump to my discussion with Amanda.

Amanda, let’s get started with your story. You’ve done so many things, vice president marketing, CMO, you’re building three businesses. How did you get here? Amanda Goetz: Oh, gosh. So where do I start? I grew up on a farm in Central Illinois. I’m a first generation college grad. And for me, my start was I graduated early from college because my accounting T.A. offered me a job at Ernst and Young. And I was still first semester of my senior year. And I was like, OK, I think I can graduate early if I take 18 hours. So I added a course. I graduated early. But my senior year of college, I took 18 hours of classes Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. I got on a bus every Wednesday night. I went from Champaign-Urbana, Illinois, up to Chicago. I worked at Ernst & Young in the Sears Tower in Chicago, Thursdays and Fridays. I studied all day Saturday, went back to my roommates on Sunday and did it all again. 

Rob Marsh: Wow, that’s nuts. 

Amanda Goetz: I definitely have found that just the way that I’m wired and I am open to pushing myself and seeing what I’m capable of. But through those years I also learned what burnout looks like and where my limits are. I worked at Ernst & Young for a few years. That took me from Chicago to New York, where I finally realized I needed to be more consumer-facing. I didn’t like the financial services. I went to go work for a celebrity wedding planner, which is kind of a whole funny chapter, but I learned so much about what it meant to have a personal brand. 

He had a reality TV show that we worked on. He had books, he had licensing deals. So that was kind of my first real mini CMO role. But also seeing the value of a personal brand up close and personal. So I did that for a few years. That also allowed me to travel the world, which was really cool because my parents have never been on an airplane. So It’s a hilarious upbringing. So I was like, I’m headed to Australia to go plan a Major League Baseball player’s 30th birthday. I’ll be back in two weeks. And it was just funny and a really cool chapter of my life. 

From there, I launched a tech startup with a co-founder that I met through some nonprofit work. Did that. That was kind of like my MBA. I was managing engineers. I was learning how to build a tech product. I was understanding what it meant to like, what does VC capital mean? And I did an accelerator program in New York City, where it really taught us, it’s called Startup Leadership Program, SLP. It’s a global program. And you really learn what it means to be like a founder. And from there, did that for a few years. And that got me to The Knot, where I led marketing. And I was kind of the first consumer marketing hire, because it was an editorial company. For anybody that knows The Knot, it’s a magazine. And we made it a two-sided marketplace. I was there for five and a half years, then the pandemic hit. 

I decided to launch another startup, which was a consumer facing startup, a CPG wellness company. We had actual physical goods. We had supplements, and sold that two years ago to kind of take a break and focus on stability and family and I took a VP of marketing job to just kind of like reset. I call it my spin cycle. Like everything felt really heavy. I needed to get all the water out. And then from there decided I wanted to write a book and kind of share all of this stuff that I had learned throughout my journey. I’m a single mom. I have three kids. I got divorced a couple of years before the pandemic. And now writing a book. I launched kind of this creator community, helping people really understand what it looks like to build an intentional personal brand with the goal of making money.

Rob Marsh: Nice. There’s a, there’s a lot of here and so much we can ask about before we go any farther, what you’re even doing today. I want to go back to the wedding planner days. What is the wildest, craziest experience that you had doing that job?

Amanda Goetz: Oh my gosh, that could be its own podcast. I have so many stories that I’m sure NDAs were probably signed at some point.

Rob Marsh: We won’t name names.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it was a lot of NFL,  NBA, NASCAR, like I’ve touched kind of all of them. I had one family who no wedding venue was good enough. So they said, build us one. And so I had to move to a town and build a wedding venue that they would later turn into a commercial wedding venue that they would make money off of. But the mom was such a savvy businesswoman. She was like, no, if I’m going to spend this much money, it’s going to be an investment that I will get a return on. And so I built a wedding venue.

Rob Marsh: Credit the mom, that’s a brilliant idea when you think of all the money that gets wasted on weddings. But yeah, that’s awesome. Okay, so you’ve got all of these experiences adding up to what you’re doing today. And if I’m not mistaken, you’re building three different businesses at the moment. Tell us a little bit about those.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I have kind of my main pillar, which is Life’s a Game. It’s all about success without burnout. So how do you play the game of life and manage your time and energy efficiently? So that is a newsletter. I don’t think of funnels anymore, I think in flywheels, because they should all feed each other. So I have a newsletter. I talk on social media about personal and professional growth. Then that feeds to my newsletter. If somebody wants to go further, I have a course that’s coming out in two days that takes you to that next level where it’s self-guided. It’s seven modules sharing everything I’ve learned about productivity, but realistic productivity. 

I’ve got three kids. A lot of productivity gurus out there are like a single dude that doesn’t have kids that’s like, here’s how to wake up at 5 a.m. and do these things. You’re like, I got a kid. Realistic productivity. and goal setting. So if somebody likes that and they want to go deeper, they can join my community. I do group coaching. We have over 100 people that meet biweekly, and we are in a Slack community, and some of those I even do one-on-one coaching with. So that’s kind of one pillar. 

Then I’ve got Break an Egg, which I started with Jack Appleby—a lot of people are not like the people listening to this podcast, right? They don’t know how to write on social media. And so we started a very, very inexpensive, it’s $5 a month, email list where subscribers get daily prompts to show up on LinkedIn. So it’s like, today, talk about a time in your career where you learned X, Y, and Z. And so they get that prompt. And now they know, OK, that’s what I’m going to share on social media today. And then they have a community. So that’s another business. 

And then I’ve got the book, which is kind of its own business, because it’s not necessarily related to the other two. And with the book, I I do speaking engagements and I go around. So that’s kind of its own pillar. 

And then I would say, like, I kind of have a fourth one, which is I’m still a fractional CMO and I still take on CMO work and helping people think about their branding. So, yeah, I kind of keep my hands in all those cookie jars.

Rob Marsh: Listening to you talk about it, it’s clear why Life’s a Game is focused on time management, energy management—all of that, because, as you mentioned, you’ve got a family, you’ve got a personal life, and managing literally four or five different businesses. That’s a lot.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like a lot because of the way I approach everything. But I recognize that when I say this, it sounds crazy.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, it sounds a little nuts. I do want to come back to those businesses. But if somebody is thinking, okay, I’m a writer, or I would love to start a business like what you have started, maybe something like Break an Egg, or even Life’s a Game where you’re talking about some of your experiences and how to do something, right? You’ve built a lot of this on social media and with newsletters. And this is something that as I’ve watched you build your businesses over the last year or so, I’m fascinated by how you’ve done it, how you show up constantly, especially at Twitter and LinkedIn. Will you just talk about your strategy there and what you’re doing and how you’ve grown as you’ve been posting there consistently?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I’ll get a little tactical here because I think it’s helpful. People like to talk in “macro” and it’s like, well, that sounds great. But like, what do you actually do? Let’s do that.

Rob Marsh: Tactics is great.

Amanda Goetz: OK, so at the start, I’m really thinking about what are my content pillars? So we’re all writers here. You’re thinking about what are the pillars that I’m talking about? And when you have those pillars created, Then you can figure out, OK, there’s all these different styles of writing a post. So say I’m going to talk about time management. Well, you can then list out. 

You could say how to do X by doing Y. That’s one type of post. I have a list of 10 types of posts. It’s like the contrarian take. Here’s the old way of doing something versus the new way of doing something. Anytime I write a post, I’m thinking about what are the eight ways that I can write this post. I call one a fortune cookie post. What’s the two-liner? summary of this thing. One’s a version of like story time. If I’m going to tell a story about how I burnt out, I’ll tell that story. But then I’m going to take that longer story and turn it into six or seven shorter things. Right. 

And to your point, the newsletter is usually the starting point. I write a long newsletter and then I chop that into eight or 10 different tweets. And I do the same thing, Twitter and LinkedIn. Sometimes I change it up one day, but you will see the same content on both. I don’t over-engineer that. And then I program that. On Sundays, I sit down for about an hour and a half in the morning before the kids are up, and I schedule that stuff out. And the cool thing is when you have one newsletter and you’re writing about, like, say that newsletter today was like the science of overwhelm—and what do I do when I feel overwhelmed about something? OK, I’m going to then chop that into eight tweets. But I’m not going to do that all in one week, because that would feel very redundant. So I’m going to space that out over the course of eight weeks. When you do that every week, all of a sudden, in a few weeks, you’ve got the full week already scheduled. And it’s kind of this wonderful compounding effect. And so I do sit down on Sundays. And that allows me on the day to day to not get time sucked into social media. 

I have two chunks of my day from eight to nine after I drop off the kids and I usually have a coffee and I’m relaxing and kind of transitioning back into work mode where I will engage with people. and then around noon. And those are usually the two times that my two more meatier posts go live. So I’m there to respond to people when they’re engaging with it. So it’s all very, very formulaic. 

I think people kind of feel deflated when they hear that because they’re like, oh, I thought everybody’s actually there thinking of this stuff. It’s like, no, the people who are there to drive a funnel or a flywheel, they’re making money. They have got a system in place where they are maximizing the time that they’re showing up. I don’t want to sit down at 8 a.m. and be like, well, what should I post today? Because that’s wasted energy.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’m glad you said that, because I think the perception is, like you said, we see the tweets showing up four or five times a day, or on LinkedIn once or twice a day. We see the newsletter coming into our inboxes, and it feels like you’re ever-present. And which is intentional. And that’s good. That’s what you want people to think. But the fact that you’re letting the system run it, that’s like one of those behind-the-scene things that if we’re going to be serious about building that kind of a business—and I know a lot of people listening are—that’s the kind of thing that’s really, really helpful.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. You have to understand that this is why Life’s a Game is called Life’s a Game. Everyone that’s out there being successful has learned how to play the game. And it feels icky. It feels inauthentic. But the fact of the matter is, if you sit down every day to try to create a post, you’re going to overthink it. You’re going to sit there for longer. And that’s wasted time and energy. 

It’s funny, because even with the newsletter, when I first started it, It was June of last year. Each newsletter would take me about eight hours. So I would break it up. On Saturdays, I’d ideate. Sundays, I’d draft. Mondays, I would edit. Tuesdays, I’d add pictures. Wednesdays, I’d program and it would go live on Thursdays. After about five, six months of doing that, I started to find my rhythm. I understood the formula. Again, everything comes down to… once you have that formula of what works, you’re like, okay, cool. I’ve got this. 

Now I write all four newsletters one day a month. I block out the day, I write four, now that’s done. Now when you think about, okay, I have a newsletter and I’m showing up on social every day, that’s actually only one day a week and one day a month. Now I’ve got all this other time to do those other businesses that I’m working.

Rob Marsh: I love that. Let’s talk a little bit about the growth that you’ve seen as you’ve done this. Everybody starts at zero. We all look at the businesses that have thousands and thousands of followers, and I know you’re not yet at the quarter of a million or the millions, but you have had an amazing growth curve over the last few months.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. On social, it’s been interesting. I talk a lot about creator seasons. I was in creator winter for quite a while. And I want to just tell people that not everyone just looks like an overnight success. I was tweeting and posting for a very long time into the void. And eventually, you start to see these little upticks, and then that starts to build and compound. But with the newsletter, it’s been pretty steady of just slow, but up into the right growth. I started, obviously, with zero. I pre-launched it. I think I launched on the day when it went live. I had about 1,000 subscribers. I think now I just crossed 27,000. And so it’s like 1,000 a week. It’s slow and steady.

Rob Marsh: That’s great. And you’ve seen sort of the same thing with social media. Is that right? Or is that different?

Amanda Goetz: Social media is a different game. Like it’s truly you once you learn the rules of the game. So the number one thing that I teach people in my group coaching is about engagement circles. And this is the thing that like the successful people, they will not talk about, but like I am an open book and I’m like, I want everyone to know the rules of the game. And look, just because what I’m about to say sounds simple does not mean it’s easy. And people confuse those two things. 

Showing up every day and engaging on social media is not easy, but it’s simple. So what is an engagement circle? It is a group of people at a similar level—it’s like if you only have a thousand followers, find five other people that are around 2000 followers and say, hey, I’m going to show up every day at 8 a.m. and post. When do you show up every day? And I’m going to comment on your stuff. You’re going to comment on my stuff. And we’re going to show up for each other every day. I am on group texts with different creators. I’m in DM groups with different creators. I do it with my Office Hours community. We do it with Break an Egg community. Drop your post. Let other people know it’s there. You can’t expect the algorithm to do all the work. You have to show up. And the way that LinkedIn algorithm works is when you post, that first few minutes is when the algorithm is saying, is this a valuable post? If within the first few minutes of that post going live, say in the first 30 minutes, a lot of people start engaging with it and you’re commenting back, the algorithm’s like, oh, this creator’s there. That’s good. They want that. They want dialogue. And other people are commenting on this. This must mean that this is a valuable post. And so you just learn that trick, and it’s like, OK, hey, guys, I post every day at 8:15 AM. You show up at the same time, and we’re going to be there for each other.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, the timing thing. This is one of those lessons that I’ve learned, because I tend to post just kind of whenever it’s like, oh, I’ve got to get something up today. So sometimes it’s in the morning. Sometimes it’s in the afternoon. I’ve posted in the evening. And I have posted things that I thought were really good engagement stuff in the evening. and it’s flat because people aren’t there and it’s not until the morning that they start engaging and it’s a much slower build. So that timing is really important. Can I also ask, and I know it’s not about the tools, it’s never about the tools, but what are the tools that you’re using to post and make sure the stuff is showing up?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so I use Hypefury for Twitter. The only thing about Hypefury that’s a little frustrating is you can’t schedule long form posts. So on Sundays, I literally will create a little postcard and I’ll make like a it’s like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. And if I have a long form post that is in drafts on Twitter, I’ll have like a little like bird or like blue checkmark or something that’s like reminds me that that one isn’t going to publish automatically. I’ve got to go in and click send. But otherwise, anything else that’s a thread or a shorter post, that’s all through Hypefury. 

Then everything on LinkedIn is Taplio. And I’m actually I’m doing a webinar March 21st for Taplio, where I’m showing how I create a lot of content in a short amount of time. They have very cool AI tools that generate hooks for you. So you can put in your tweet or your post, the content, and it will generate a bunch of hooks for you. And that’s what I was talking about earlier, which is like, you should have one post served seven ways.

Rob Marsh: I love that. So as you were starting up these businesses, you left your previous work, was it a cold break or did you sort of start that slow build while you were still at Theknot thinking, okay, I know what I’m going to be doing. I need to build some runway for myself.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So this creator business is different than House of Wise, which was a VC backed company. That one was different because it was middle of COVID. I started working on it kind of nights and weekends because I wanted to do the development and understand who my customer was going to be and who was going to make the product and where was I going to source the ingredients from. That was a slow build. Basically, I raised $400,000 pre-seed while I had a full-time job at The Knot. My boss knew about it. I was transparent about it. I said, I’m doing it nights and weekends, but I’m going to start talking about what I’m doing. Okay, that was fine. 

When it started to become not okay was when I felt my energy shift and that the House of Wise needed more of me. And so that was when I was like, I got to figure this out. So lucky enough, because of Twitter and LinkedIn, I saw somebody posting about like, they needed a marketer. And I was like, Hey, I think if you want a fractional CMO, I could probably do 20 hours a week with you so I could give half of my time to House of Wise. And that worked out perfectly. 

So I, left my full-time job, took on a fractional CMO role, helped build that brand while I was still building my company. And it wasn’t until I raised the $2 million seed and we were driving real revenue that I was like, okay, I can now let everything else go and do this. 

Now, fast forward to my creator, this new era of my life. I was in a position, and honestly, it was a forcing function situation. I was in a position where I was not happy. I did not love the setup, the culture. And sometimes it takes a bad situation for you to be like, I’ve got to leave and I have nothing. And I remember one particularly hard day, I shut my computer and I looked at my partner and I was like, I think I need to quit. And I’m like, this is really not you know, from an energy standpoint and an alignment standpoint, I’m not there. So we talked through it and he was like, do you know what you want to do? And I was like, no, but I think I’ll figure it out. And so sometimes the scariest things are like removing your safety net. But when I tell you I have never worked harder or with more intention than I did the three months following where I was like, I’ve got to figure out how I’m making money. And so those next three months of me figuring out how to monetize my audience was like real.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, OK. Yeah, I mean, this is something I think that a lot of us experienced as copywriters. It’s like, hey, we leave the in-house job. Or sometimes it’s not voluntary. There’s a layoff that happens. An agency loses a client or whatever. And not having the safety net forces you to get serious. very fast. 

I’ve also been in situations, in fact, I was in a startup with four partners, we all had other jobs. And so we were kind of doing it on the side. And we could never get the traction because we were all safe doing—it was like we could play.

Amanda Goetz: That was my first startup, same thing.

Rob Marsh: We could play and build stuff. And it’s like, well, yeah, we’ll get a client. But we don’t need it because every one of us had that runway. Or actually, it was more than runway. We had a total safety net. Yeah. And so it never got traction, unfortunately, because I still think it’s a great idea. But we were just the wrong team to build it. So as you do all of this stuff, you mentioned earlier, at one point, you burned out doing some of the other stuff. I mean, listening to you, I said three jobs. You really have five jobs, as we were talking about earlier. What are you doing to avoid burnout this time?

Amanda Goetz: I’m very intentional about what my boundaries are. Like I said, I have turned down many clients. I’ve turned down many meetings. I’ve turned down many podcasts. I am very, very intentional about what I’m saying yes to. The shift is like, look, in your 20s and early 30s, like I’m in my late 30s now, it’s like, you have to say yes to opportunities because you never know. You have to increase that luck surface area. And I would not be in the position I am today had I not put myself in scenarios and situations and went to events and put myself at the tables of the people that kind of are now just like in my life. 

But now I’m very intentional about the level of effort something takes and the level of impact it has towards my goal. And right now I’m very clear on my goals. And this is what I teach in the course, which is everything starts with, what do you see for your life in this current season? What do you want? Are you pushing in your career? And that’s OK if you are. But for how long are you willing to allow that to go? OK, for the next one to two years, you’re pushing in your career. Great. Well, then you need to stop and take inventory and say, are you still good with that a year in? And do you need to shift? Does somebody need to go on the front burner or back burner? 

Start with your goal and then align your actions towards that goal. And I talk a lot about where does weak boundaries come from, like meaning you’re saying yes to people’s meetings or saying yes to things that aren’t in alignment? Well, it comes from people-pleasing, right? And where does people-pleasing come from? A need for validation and affirmation and a low self-worth. And so really, the shortest answer to your question is that I’ve done a lot of the inner work stuff to fix those things that actually lead to those weak boundaries. Because once I know my worth and that I deserve to achieve the goals that I’ve set, now I’m in a whole different headspace to say, well, no, my goal is just as important as your goal. And I’m going to work towards mine just as much as I’m going to work towards yours. And that is the shift that I think needed to happen for me.

Rob Marsh: You mentioned the tension between effort and impact. Will you talk a little bit more about that? Maybe even give us a specific example of how that shows up.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. Look, I could put on my CMO hat right now and talk about like, oh, someone wants us to do a campaign with this landing page and, you know, all this copy and all this stuff. Like, it sounds really cool. OK, well, my first question is, let’s look at the level of effort and the level of impact I have. 100,000 people follow me on Twitter, and if I can get 10% of them to drive to this landing page, what’s the typical conversion of a landing page? Okay, now I get them to a site. What’s the typical conversion from that site? Okay, boil that down, back of the napkin math, I might have 50 people that purchase this thing. Is that the good use of my time? Or should I focus on this thing where I can drive them directly to the newsletter and the newsletter I know has a different funnel? So I think about everything in that way. Like, does this meeting that somebody wants me to take, what is the level of effort and what’s the level of impact towards my goals? And if it’s not high, like every, I love doing this every Friday afternoon, is my email day. That’s when I actually go through all of my emails, because I don’t email such a time suck. 

I do not let email control me. I keep it closed most of the day. Friday afternoons, when I look at my calendar for the next week and I say, okay, I said yes to all these things. What am I going to remove? What is truly not in alignment with what my goal is for next week? My goal is to write three chapters next week. Do I have enough space to actually do that? And if I don’t, guess what? Other people can wait because it’s my time. And those are the things I think about.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Okay, we’ve talked about your book a couple of times. And I, before we started recording, I told you, I have struggled to get out my, you know, book idea, you know, it’s on 30 different documents on my hard drive or whatever. Let’s talk about the process of writing a book. And specifically, what are you writing about? Who’s it for that kind of thing?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah. So process wise, I approach it like everything that I approach. It’s, it’s, It’s like, oh, I want to write a book. That is a big, scary, meaty goal, right? What’s less intimidating? Writing 500 words. Like, that’s just, I can write 500 words in a sitting and not even think twice about that. So every day, like you can see, Tuesday, this is my Tuesday, 1,000 words, okay? That’s manageable. And so I just, I have taken this big, hairy thing and just broken it up. I call it KitKat strategy. I just take big things and I break them up into a million pieces and I do one a day. With the book, I mean, my partner tells this story about the first time we ever met, I said, I really want to write a book before I’m 40. That was like a thing. I said it, I was probably trying to sound really cool. I don’t know. I had no idea what I was going to write about, but one, I put it out there. And that’s the thing that I want to share is accountability and putting your dreams out there. It sounds woo-woo. It sounds a little hippy-dippy, but it truly does hold yourself accountable. 

There’s a scientific study that says having a goal, making a plan towards your goal gets you like 35% of the way towards your goal. Telling people that you have that goal takes it up to like 55%. And then making accountability partners takes you up to like 85, 90% when you have those checkpoints. And that, so for me, I’m going to let this kind of fester in my head now. I want to do this. I just made more time to think about what I wanted to write about. And then one day I remember I just had this idea and I sat down and I wrote the proposal in one day. I was like, I think I like this, like it’s giving me a ton of energy and I really want to feel like this is an important message to share. 

Then I said, OK, well, what’s the next step? I need to get an agent. OK, cool. I have enough author friends in my circles that I was like, I think I want to write a book. Are you open to introducing me to your agent? And a lot of my friends are still debut authors, their first time help. So their agents are right in that wheelhouse. I’m not trying to go after Jay Shetty’s agent. And so went to New York, met with them. three agents that week and got offers from all three and so secured that. And then I was like, oh, now I have even more accountability. Like this person believes in me and now I have to write this proposal because the proposal I turned in, I didn’t know what I was doing. It was just like, you know, two sheets of paper was like, here’s my idea. Do you like it? And then she was like, okay, Now we got to turn this into what are the chapters? What are the summaries for every chapter? What is the connective tissue of this thing? And that took me like six months. Like that was like real work. And what I started writing was not what I ended writing is the funniest part. 

What I thought the book was going to be about ended up being a component of it, but it took on a whole other kind of life of its own. And so now I’m in. The coolest thing is once you have a very structured outline like that with the summaries, I right now and my editor has told me that I am going at a speed that’s not normal. So I’m very aware of this. But. I basically have said every chapter is about 5000 words. That means I’m going to write 1,000 words a day every week, Monday through Friday, so I’ll have a chapter done a week. My book is 13 chapters, so 13 weeks, and the book is done. In my head, it just seems so simple. Now, as I’ve gone through this process, I’ve learned, okay, some days I’m not feeling creatively energized. Some days the kids need me more. All in all, I started it in December. I’ll turn in the manuscript by the end of May. And it’s been a six-month process of now writing the book. So all in, six months of proposal, six months of the book. It’s a year of writing. But I’ve been very intentional about it. I’ve said, this is when I’m doing this. This is the date I’m doing it by. So you just have to kind of give the thing life.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, and you decided to traditionally publish as opposed to self-publish. How come?

Amanda Goetz: I did. This was a tough decision for me because, one, it’s not a sure thing to go after a traditional publisher. And there’s fear of rejection. And truly, I think if I would have gone that route and I wouldn’t have gotten a deal, I probably wouldn’t write it because I think I would have gotten in my head of, well, this isn’t good. 

The way that I looked at it and the decision I had to make was, is it a means to the end or an end? Am I writing the book because I want to sell this book and I want to make money from the book and that’s this? Or is it a means to the end where the book sparks a message and a movement that I get to go then speak around and potentially do a podcast around and build more and more and have it turn into the next book. And for me, where I’m at in my life and when I stepped away from it all and really did some of those exercises I put in the course, It was the second. It was the means to the end. I want this to be the beginning of a conversation and the beginning of this next chapter of my career. So with that, a traditional publisher, I’m not going to make money. 

Making money from a traditional publisher, you’re not in it for the money. I would make so much more money self-publishing this book. But it’s going to get the message out there. And then I’ll have a publicity team that can then put me on stages and I can talk about it. I’m going through keynote speaker training. I’m doing all the things. So you have to understand, is it the end or the means to the end? I think then aligning the path accordingly.

Rob Marsh: And as you are thinking this out, how does that change the rest of the flywheel, as we mentioned earlier, and how everything feeds into everything else? Does the business evolve into something different or is it, again, a continuation of what you’re doing right now?

Amanda Goetz: I think it would be a continuation. I love people. I love being around people. I didn’t realize how much having a community is like my passion and superpower. I love bringing people together and having them. That biweekly coaching and fostering that, it really lights me up. I don’t see anything changing with that. With everything else, it’s not a huge time suck. I’ve got the newsletter down. I’ve got to show up on social. I think that this is just now adding another piece to the puzzle, but they all kind of connect.

Rob Marsh: Let’s talk about your course, because this is coming out in a couple of days. And I’ve been lucky enough to see a little bit behind the scenes. I haven’t gone through every single module, but I’ve been through a lot of the internal work stuff. Tell us why you created it, what’s the purpose, and who’s it best for?

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, so it’s called Life’s a Game, the Master Class. So anybody that’s been following my newsletter, they’ve got a sense of what it’s going to be. But a lot of productivity courses are all around the external factors. Like, OK, you’re struggling with procrastination or focus, or how do you approach a to-do list? What’s a second brain? How do you use that? OK, those are all important things. But what I’ve found is I’ve done about a decade of coaching with Harvard-trained coaches and cognitive behavioral therapists. And what I’ve learned and what we talked about a little earlier is, My clicks into my flow state and success and taking up space in my own life happened when I did the internal work. And so this course at its highest level is helping you master time, energy, and ambition, but it’s by doing so through a lot of first introspection. 

So I say, you know, we are all wired based on previous programming. Like if you think about our brain as a software system, your childhood programmed it, your relationship with your parents programmed it, past relationships programmed it, you have this programming. And if you’re going to install new software, meaning you’re going to change your patterns, change your behaviors, you have to look at the source code and understand where you need to change the coding. So That’s what’s different about this course is every module, whether it’s talking about limiting beliefs, where do those come from? What do you have? And then how do you reprogram it? And if we’re talking about time management, it’s like, okay, where does your procrastination or lack of focus come from? Let’s get curious about that source code. And then now you’ve got a fertile ground for reprogramming and building new skill sets because it’s really, really hard to add on something new when you haven’t created the space for it.

Rob Marsh: And then once you’ve fixed the inner, then you go deeper on how to get straight with the outer in the course as well.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. So every, every module has what I call the IDEA framework. It goes introspection, decoding, then you do an exercise and then application. And so you really move through that internal to external in every single module.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. And there’s lots of exercises. I think I shared with you, I was going through it as quick as I could. So I was skipping some of the exercises that I now have to go back and really think through. But it’s that kind of thing that, again, if we want to build a business like what you’ve done, this is really the model that you followed as you’ve done all of the things that you’re doing.

Amanda Goetz: Yeah, it really is. People want the quick fix. They’re looking for someone to say, post this thing and you’ll go viral. Do this and you’ll unlock money. And it’s really the culmination of all these little things that add up to those things. And so if you put in the work and do these exercises, you are now setting yourself up to take it to another level. And so that’s, that’s the thing that I get really pumped about. And I made it, you know, it’s, it obviously took me months of work to make it, but compared to, I made it about like half the price of everything else that’s on there, because a lot of people who follow me are like, you know, moms or people doing side hustles. And they’re like, I believe that this stuff should be accessible to people.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. OK, so that brings up another question. You are very driven. You have had some pretty amazing experiences. You know, if somebody’s listening to your story and thinking, oh, I’d love to have a business like Amanda, can anybody do it? Or do you really need something extra to push you to accomplish this kind of a thing?

Amanda Goetz: I believe anyone can do this idea of… I have a goal… And I want to achieve that goal. And I’m going to make a chronological series of steps to get to that goal. And not everybody wants to be like me. And look. I have friends that are literally like, I don’t want your life. You are going hard every day. You’re showing up. You’re doing this. Not everybody’s wired like me, nor should they. But if somebody sees all these things that I’m doing and they’re like, I want to get there, then my biggest piece of advice is you’ve got to figure out how to build sustainable momentum because if you what happens is what I see with really ambitious people is we pendulum swing. We go really hard and then we burn out. And then we’re like, I can’t do anything. And so now you’re over here for a while and then you muster up the strength and you’re like, OK, now I’m ready to go back. And then you swing over and you’re going 100 miles per hour again.

And so my thing has been I steadily go a little above the speed limit, but like consistently. I don’t ever allow myself to pick up too much speed because I know I’ll break down. So I’m really, really focused on helping people stay in this like going above the speed limit, but you’re not going to break down like you’re pushing, but you’re also resting. And I have lots of frameworks for how I incorporate rest in my day. I’m done working every day at 3 p.m. I don’t work after 3 p.m. Like I have these guardrails where I’m taking care of myself so I don’t break down.

Rob Marsh: It feels like that ties back to the idea you mentioned earlier, funnels versus flywheels. Funnels tend to require launches and big bursts of energy versus the flywheel, which takes a lot of energy to get spinning. But once it’s going.

Amanda Goetz: Exactly. The coolest thing about what I’ve done over the last six years or six months with this new world of being a content creator and driving to products and services is that it was a lot of work up front, like to make this course a lot of work, to build a membership community and get all of the pieces in place and the emails that trigger at the right time, like that’s a lot of work and investment in time and energy and money because like some of that stuff I need somebody else to help me with. 

And so I had to hire somebody to kind of help me with some of the triggers, but it’s like, Okay, now that’s going, I have steady recurring revenue coming in that is now I spend an hour a day with the community. What took me, you know, 40 hours a week for a few months now is one hour a day and I’m making the same amount of money. So understanding that, like same with the newsletter, a lot of effort upfront, made no money, had no sponsors. Now I make about 10K a month in sponsorships for the newsletter. Okay, great. That’s one day a month to make 10K. So these are the things that you have to understand in this whole creator world is it’s a lot of energy up front. 

And most people, if you’ve ever seen that meme, like somebody shoveling And it’s like the pot of gold is like on the other side of the wall. And the only difference is the person who got tired up here, they kept going. And the person that got tired here was like, it’s never going to happen. They walked away. Both have the gold behind the wall. It’s just when you get tired, you kind of have to know, I’m doing this for a reason and you keep going. But most people kind of stop. And the people that you see, the only difference is they just kept going and kept showing up.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. If you could go back and talk to college student, Amanda, who’s flying to Chicago to work, you know, two days a week, busting her hump, you know, through the weekend and give her some advice that would help her, I don’t know, accomplish this faster, do it a little bit differently, maybe avoid a mistake. What would you tell her?

Amanda Goetz: I don’t believe in mistakes and regret. I believe that I had to learn all the lessons. I had to learn to get to where I am. Look, I got married when I was 21. I had kids young, but I don’t I think I would just go back to tell her, like, you are going to be strong and you’re going to get through everything that comes your way. And you’re just going to keep getting stronger. So just know and trust it, that you are totally capable of handling everything that’s going to come your way.

Rob Marsh: Amazing. OK, the course comes out in a couple of days. We have a link that we’ll link to in our show notes. It’s the shortcut will be thecopywriterclub.com/amanda. If you want to check out Amanda’s course. Thanks for being here, Amanda, sharing so much of your journey. I’m a fan. And so this has been a lot of fun just chatting with you about how you’ve built your business over the last few months.

Amanda Goetz: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Rob Marsh: Okay. That’s the end of our discussion or the discussion between Amanda and myself. There are so many good ideas that got mentioned in this discussion that we really didn’t have enough time to jump into. And I want to touch on a couple of those and add to what Amanda shared. 

One thing that she mentioned, and I wish we had had some more time to talk about this, but Amanda talked about expanding the luck surface area. This is an idea that I love, but we didn’t actually specify how exactly you do this. We talked a little bit about saying yes to more things, but in order to expand the surface area for your lock, really what you’re trying to do is get exposed or seen by more people. having more opportunities to talk to more people, create more connections, to create more relationships, opportunities to have people see the things that you do. And so in order to do that, you need to make more offers. Or if you’ve only got one or two things, you need to make those offers in more different ways so that people can be exposed to them, they can see them. You need to create more products and services. 

We talked with Josh Long just a couple of weeks ago on making bite-sized offers that clients can say yes to and how to reach out to those clients who are maybe pulling back on their marketing budgets just a little bit in order to find ways to connect with them and let them see how you can help them. Expanding the luck surface area means making more connections, connections with potential clients, other prospects, with copywriters, with content writers, with marketers, with other people who are building businesses like you. Expanding the luck surface area oftentimes means joining a community where you can make those connections. There are free communities like our free Facebook group, the Copywriter Club. But there are also paid communities. Obviously, I’m partial to the Copywriter Underground. That’s the one that we talk about a lot. But these are places where you can make connections with other people who are investing in their businesses right now. They’ve got a reason to go in, to engage, to learn. So paid communities can be one of the very best ways to expand that luck surface area. 

You also want to be talking about the problems you solve. You want to be talking about it on social media and in newsletters and on stages, in guest posts, on podcasts, wherever you can show up and share both the problem you solve and the person that you solve it for. The more you can do that, the better. You know, we talked about three weeks ago with Joanna Wiebe on the podcast, and she mentioned the daily non-negotiables. These are the things that you want to make part of your daily non-negotiables. Now it sounds like a lot, but a system can make it doable. 

So go back back and listen to what Amanda shared about her system for creating a month’s worth of content with a single day’s worth of work, because creating systems like that will help you increase your luck surface area so that you can make more connections and have more opportunities for things to go right in your business. 

One other thing that I want to touch on is that funnel versus flywheel idea. I really like this idea. It’s a great reframe of the work that we do. Most of the activities that we do each day or each work should feed the rest of the machine that we’re building. And oftentimes when we’re working on funnels and launches, we go all in on one thing and then we shift our focus to going all in on another thing. All of those activities that I just mentioned that you need to be doing to increase the luck surface area in your business, if you do them right, you’re getting attention where it does the most good and it connects prospects and readers to your other content, to your products and to your services, rather than launching and focusing on one thing at a time. You’re now building and growing everything together. 

This reinforces the connections between all the things that you do. It might take some reflection in your business to figure out, are the things that I’m doing connected in some way that makes sense? If they’re not, maybe change up your offer just a little bit or find ways to create those connections. 

This reminds me just a little bit of the Ascension model. We talked a bit about this with James Wedmore a long time ago, episode 25 of the podcast, but it’s basically building in services and products in your business that lay on top of each other and serve each other so that people can move through the different offers that you have and fix the different problems in their businesses that they’re dealing with at different times. It might be worth going back to listen to what James had to share if you’re interested in this idea. And you can find that in episode 25 of this podcast. 

Okay. I want to say thanks again to Amanda Getz for joining me to go so deep on her business, on content creation systems, and so much more. We talked a lot about her new course, Life’s a Game, The Masterclass. If you’re interested in checking that out, go to thecopyrighterclub.com/amanda, That’s an affiliate link. 

The course doesn’t go live for another two days if you’re listening to the day that this podcast goes live. But if you’re talking about, you know, after Thursday, I think March 14th, then you want to go visit copyrighterclub.com/amanda and just check it out. 

And if you use that link to sign up, you’re going to be supporting this podcast and helping us bring you more amazing guests like Amanda. 

Now, if you’ve enjoyed this show, I’d really love to hear your thoughts. And of course, I’d love it if you’d leave a review at Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen. But additionally, after we finished recording, Amanda offered to come back and do a training for the Copywriter Club. And if that’s interesting to you, drop me an email at rob@thecopywriterclub.com to let me know that you’d like to hear more from Amanda and even what you might want her to talk about and share. And yeah, that is my real email address. So you can send it directly to me there. 

Obviously, there’s a lot that we can learn from Amanda, and I’m looking forward to having her come back and teach us even more. 

That’s the end of this episode of the Copywriter Club podcast.

Is marketing unethical? What about tactics like scarcity or significance? Should copywriters be using these persuasive elements in their copy? If not, why not? And when is it acceptable? Our guests for the 385th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast are Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur, hosts of their own podcast called Duped where they talk about the misuse of persuasion in marketing. Between the four of us, we figured out the answers to these questions and more (almost). Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground Duped Podcast

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: At some point in your writing career, most copywriters bump up against a persuasion tactic that just feels off. Or worse, they’re asked to do something they don’t feel good about. Maybe it’s as simple as adding a deadline timer to an offer with no real deadline. Or it might be something worse… like selling programs to people who can’t afford them, or who will never get the promised results.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug and I had a chance to speak with the dynamic duo behind the Duped Podcast, Maggie Patterson and Michelle Mazur. We talked about those dubious marketing tactics, when it’s okay to use them, and when you need to be the adult in the room who says, this is going to far. If you’ve ever wondered where the line is when it comes to marketing ethics, this episode will give you something to think about.

But first, I want to tell you abou The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few days.

Now, let’s hear what Michelle and Maggie had to say…

Kira Hug: All right, welcome, Michelle, Maggie. So good to have both of you here. Let’s kick off with the catalyst. What was the catalyst for Duped and that partnership between the two of you?

Michelle Mazur: Well, I believe it started with me. Maggie and I vox a lot about things we’re seeing and chatting about it. I sent her a Voxer message and said, hey, I think we should do a limited series podcast episode where we dive into some of these topics. And that was the catalyst. We were already creating the content in our Voxer conversations. And we’re like, well, what if we just open that up to a wider audience? And we intended just to do, I think, eight episodes and maybe a second season. And then we realized, oh, wow, we have a lot to talk about here.

Rob Marsh: So for anybody who’s not already heard duped or aware of duped or even met you, Maggie and Michelle, tell us a little bit about, let’s just lay that groundwork. What is Duped and why should people be listening to it?

Maggie Patterson: So Duped is a consumer advocacy podcast that is really designed to help consumers in the online business space make more critical, nuanced decisions. Because what we tend to see is a lot of stories of, I bought XYZ, or I signed up with this coach, and I had a really negative experience. And from my perspective as a business owner, there’s two ways we can approach this. We can try to get every business owner to reform their practices, which we’re never all going to agree. It’s just not going to happen. Or we can educate consumers so that they’re making purchasing decisions that are going to align with their values, their ethics, what they’re actually looking for, and really do the job of vetting the things. Because we’ve all had experiences of things not being quite what we expected, but because these people are really great marketers, a lot of times really are using really amazing copywriters, we’re easily persuaded. And persuasion is a double-edged sword.

Michelle Mazur: And I think Maggie and I bring a unique set of skills to this conversation because. It is easy for her and I to clock what is happening, like what persuasion strategy is being triggered and being like, oh, they’re using scarcity or they’re using a combination of these to ratchet up the buying tension and pressure and then putting their solution as the only way to buy. And so we’re skilled at seeing that. I really wanted to relay to people that, hey, if you fell for this stuff, it’s not your fault. These are very strategic and intentional decisions business owners are making to sell and to sell as much as possible, to have the mythical six-figure, seven-figure business that we all hear so much about. And so being able to deconstruct and show people like, what’s really happening here? And here’s why you made the decision you did. So don’t feel bad and don’t stop trusting yourself. Because that’s the other thing that really pains me is I see business owners who do get duped And then they blame themselves, like, I suck. I didn’t follow the proven formula for success closely enough. And really, it’s not their fault. And most of this one size fits all that is sold in the marketplace doesn’t work for a lot of different business owners for a variety of different reasons. So taking that pressure and blame and shame off of it and being able to have a conversation and name it for people, I feel is really important.

Kira Hug: Yeah, and I mean, copywriters consume a lot of online products and courses. So I think this is a great conversation for our audience. We’re also influential with our clients, which I know we can talk about as well. But I want to go back to your Voxer. I want to get into your Voxer conversation. So I need to know the details of when did that conversation start? I mean, I know you two have been friends for a while. When did that conversation ratchet up and turn more serious? Is this 2020? Is this before then? And were there certain events that took place where you two were like, this is bigger than us chatting on Boxer. We need to go larger.

Maggie Patterson: I think there’s some interesting things in that. Michelle and I have been friends for, what, 10 years, Michelle? We’ve been friends for a very long time. Michelle decided we need to be friends, so now here we are.

Michelle Mazur: Michelle did a little stalking of Maggie Patterson, too, because I was like, I’m gonna be friends with her.

Maggie Patterson: And we’ve both been talking about, I mean, Rob and Kira, we’ve known each other for a long time, like, it’s not a secret. I’ve always been, for lack of a better word, vocal about these things. And I’ve just been like, yeah, that doesn’t sit right with me. Here’s why. And so we’ve both been doing those things separately. And you know, we’d be having our conversations on Facebook Messenger, and that evolved into Voxer. And then I kind of went through the experience in early 2020, with the pandemic of I had too much time on my hands, didn’t we all? And that’s when a lot of things like some of the business practices that we had both clocked for a long time as being very, not productive or helpful for potential consumers, they really ratcheted up. And I just started getting more vocal in my own work. Michelle started getting vocal in her own work. Like I was just like, I’m going to pull the ripcord and put this out there. Michelle kind of had the same attitude. And then the two of us were like, Oh, yeah, we need to formalize this body of work more. Because we also knew that as people have been talking for so long, if we didn’t talk about it, someone else was going to fill that gap in the market. And we decided to go for it. And then it’s just kind of run away on its own three years later.

Rob Marsh: So as we talk about this stuff, I think there’s a tendency to start out and say, wait, hold on a second. marketing fills a purpose in business, right? And it’s really easy. In fact, I’ve seen people stand up at events or whatever and say, wow, all of this stuff is really bad. And you guys aren’t saying marketing is bad. At least my impression is that what you’re really trying to do is take us back to a place of integrity. and say, okay, hold on a second. Let’s start with helping people solve real problems in a way that doesn’t take advantage of them. Does it go beyond that?

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, I believe it does because I always say I’m marketing agnostic, but marketing is neither good nor bad, just like scarcity is neither good nor bad. It’s all about how you use it. in your business. And since we are a very unregulated industry, Maggie and I talk about this a lot, there are no ethical standards for like, hey, when is it appropriate to use scarcity and when is it not? So everybody is making these personal decisions. So yeah, it’s about bringing us back into integrity, helping people realize that, I mean, I feel like this is kind of the premise of both of our separate podcasts of like, there’s more than one way to market. There’s no one right way to market your business. You have options. And people for thousands of years have been marketing in ways that are in alignment, in integrity. And it seems like in this digital world, we got into … I almost look at it, I feel like it’s like a timeshare salesman. We were taught to market and sell like timeshares people, right? Put on the pressure, get the credit card, get them to sign the contract. Give them all the bonuses just for showing up. And that’s the way we were taught to market. But if you like Maggie and I both have backgrounds in corporate That’s not how corporations do it. Corporations market in a way that is going to align with their values. They’re not putting disappearing bonuses out there because they understand how they want to show up. They have experts in-house to help them create their marketing, whereas we rely on all of these people to tell us what is the right way to market. and that’s usually something that’s a little bit laden with some manipulation and NLP and other things.

Kira Hug: Yeah, we can talk about NLP and get into some of the topics that you discuss on the podcast and get a little more granular. Before that, are you able to share more of a historical context of this, what feels like a bubble that we’re in this online marketing world that we’re in? Just like even since 2020, just kind of talking through the highs and lows, because it has changed dramatically. And I think partly related to pandemic, economy, AI, more education provided by people like the two of you, where there’s just more awareness and sophistication. So maybe this is just more of a State of the Union with some historical context to just ground us in where we are today.

Maggie Patterson: Well, we just recorded an episode on a 2024 State of the Union yesterday. So this is perfect timing. Yes. To say that, to say all that. Yeah. So what we saw in 2020, right, is we saw a shift because everyone was home. Oddly, a lot of, I’m not going to say everybody, but a lot of people had excess financial resources because they weren’t going to dinner. So we kind of created this bubble that happened in the industry. And honestly, for anyone who’s been around for any length of time, this is not new. It was just an intensification of what was already happening. And since 2020, we’ve seen a lot of different things. We’ve definitely seen way more consumer awareness because the bigger the bubble got, the more people became impacted. The more people impacted, the more you have people who are willing to speak out. This is why there’s very lively threads on Reddit talking about these issues. And whether those are fair and objective or not is not my place to say. But I mean, those conversations are happening more and more. But then we also had AI that impacted things, so the pressure’s ratcheted up. People are significantly burnt out at an existential level, so they’re just looking for simplicity, they’re looking to leave corporate. There’s been an entire movement of people who are literally being forced back to the office, who are now looking to entrepreneurship to save them, to be like, I don’t want to go back there. I really like the life I’ve built. So we have more and more interest. We’ve seen a lot of bigger name, what we call celebrity entrepreneurs pivoting towards targeting people trying to leave corporate. So there’s a lot of different things. And then what’s happened is, as consumer awareness has really become, I’m not going to say it’s widespread, but there’s definitely a greater number of people who are like, hey, I don’t really like that. What we’re starting to see is people slowly tweaking the classic tactics to say, I’m all of a sudden, I’m ethical. And I’m like, I don’t trust you as far as I can throw you. And that’s not very far. So really having to be constantly staying on top of like, this is the new tactic. This is the new tactic. And let’s be real. People are running businesses. They don’t have time for that. So Michelle and I were like, Hey, I’m noticing this. Let’s have a conversation. Then I go talk to a couple other people. Then I come back, we do some research and then we bring it to the podcast to be like, Hey, have you seen these faceless Instagram accounts? Here’s what you need to know.

Rob Marsh: I feel like saying this is ethical or this is the ethical way to do something is the new marketing tactic that people have layered on as the pendulum swings back and forth.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. And ethics, like my background, I have a PhD in communication. I taught persuasion and there was ethics baked into it. And the thing people don’t realize about ethics is that they are very personal to the business owner, especially in an unregulated industry. And like Maggie and I sometimes even disagree about different tactics. Like I’m like, I don’t think I would go as hard on that one. And she’s like, no, no, it’s just wrong. Cool, but that’s a reflection of our values and nuance, whereas these people are like, oh, yes, I’m going to teach you ethical marketing. Well, unless you’re actually teaching people how to establish their own values and their own ethics. It’s really hard to teach ethical marketing because some entrepreneurs might be really fine with agitating pain points and making people feel like crap because what their ethic is, is they value making money and getting the sale, right? Like, so it’s fine with them. And we don’t have that more nuanced conversation of like, What are ethics really? But it sounds really good. And I think that’s where we have to be skeptical. During the podcast yesterday, I was saying you have to watch what people are saying and then see how they’re showing up to market. Because what I see a lot is people saying, oh, I’m ethical. And then I see a lot of the old school bro marketing tactics. And I’m like, huh. Interesting, like making a note of that.

Maggie Patterson: And I think to that point in this conversation that Michelle and I keep having is if you’re going to claim that you’re ethical, I want to know what your values are. I want to know what your ethics are. I want to know who you learned from. that’s usually missing. So if you are like, is this person actually ethical? What has informed their work? And an example I give a lot is the terrorist test by Martinson and Davidson. I might be wrong on that, but the terrorist test, that is a very widespread marketing framework that is a framework for ethical persuasion. Is that informing your work? I never see that. Never, never see it. I look for it. So you’ve got to always kind of look at, hey, here’s the claim they’re making that I am ethical, or honestly, another one you see a lot of is trauma informed. What makes this ethical? What makes this trauma informed? Because some of the most egregious examples I have seen in the last few years, without naming names, because we don’t name them, but there’s a pattern there. are people claiming to be trauma-informed, people claiming to be ethical because they’re buzzwords and they’re just throwing them on there trying to monetize or capitalize on a trend. And it’s not a trend, it’s a way of doing business.

Kira Hug: Yeah, and this goes back to our role and responsibility if you take it on as copywriters who work closely with clients who have offers and may want to show up in a certain way or want to show up as ethical. Can you two speak to how you view the role of copywriters today and, you know, what role we can play with all of these different tactics?

Maggie Patterson: So I think the thing we have to remember, whether you’re a copywriter, you write content, whatever it is, if you’re a service provider and you’re being engaged by a client to provide a service. So with a copywriter, you have influence over the tactics they’re using, the strategies they’re going to use, how they’re using the pain points, what persuasion they’re using. So if a client comes to you and says, hey, I want to approach it this way. You have a lot of ability to maneuver and guide your clients and make strategic recommendations to say, you know what? Let’s discuss this. I want to understand why you want to do this. And let me suggest a different way to do it. And a great example is pain points. People are like, well, I have to use pain agitation solution. Well, do you? Can you approach this from an empathetic point of view? Can you create a different type of connection? Because I always say this to my clients. Do you want to get people who are all riled up buying from you? Or do you want to get people who are making a really calm, well-considered decision? I personally, in my business, want people who’ve made calmed, well-considered, well-informed decisions, not ones whose nervous systems are completely shot.

Michelle Mazur: It’s funny. Yesterday in my community, the Expert Up Club, we were talking about the problem agitation solution framework. And someone was like, I don’t want to agitate their pain. And I’m like, I understand that. Because to me, when we agitate someone’s pain, it’s like seeing someone with a broken leg and being like, oh, I see your leg is broken. Let me kick it repeatedly until you pay me to stop. And that’s what agitation does. So we were talking about other alternatives. Are there bigger forces at play, and how can you adapt copywriting frameworks to become, I don’t want to say become more ethical, but to become more conscious of like, how is this making the person receiving this message feel? Like having that self-awareness so that you’re not hijacking somebody’s nervous system and they feel all amped up and they’re buying because it feels like it’s the only solution. But how do we take what we know and break it apart and keep what works and adapt it so that we can approach talking about somebody’s problems in a more empathetic way that makes them feel seen and heard instead of triggered and harmed.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, you’re talking about something that Karen and I have talked about on our podcast a few times where I love the PAS framework, you know, problem, agitate, solve. However, you know, agitation should not be kicking the broken leg, right? You agitate or you mention how that pain shows up in somebody’s life. so that you can show you understand, right? So leaning into empathy. I even said a few episodes ago that instead of talking about PAS, we should be talking about PES. Problem, empathize, and then solve, or however you want to expand out that particular writing formula. So you’re speaking my language here, but I’m curious. So Maggie, you mentioned, as copywriters, we need to step up and influence our clients. But a lot of times, copywriters don’t feel like they have that power. They feel really constrained, like, oh, if I push back against this client, I’m going to be maybe a troublemaker. They may not hire me for another project. They may actually fire me on this project if I feel like I’m pushing too hard. So what would you say to that? copywriter or to me if I’m expressing that, how do we take control of that situation in a way where we’re not actually going to hurt our businesses or our relationships with our clients?

Maggie Patterson: This is a great question. It’s something I navigate with my clients all the time in a mentoring role. They’re like, oh, I really don’t like what this client is doing. What should I do? And the first thing I always say is, listen, I’m not going to dictate what’s right for you. You’ve got to decide for yourself where the line is. If it’s something you feel like is aligned with your values and you can work with it, great. I’m also not going to romanticize. We all need to make a living and get paid. So do I want you to not be able to pay your bills and have your house foreclosed on because you had to take an ethical stand because Maggie said so on the copywriter? No, I want you to think more strategically about how do I get the type of clients where I am being valued in my role as a copywriter for my strategic contributions? How do I start to screen up front for clients who are actually going to do this in a way that is going to work for me? And also, as a service provider, really stepping back before you even talk to that client. Go see what they’ve done in the past. Figure out if there’s things. Have those conversations up front to be like, OK, you know what? I notice in your last two launches, you’ve used scarcity. Can we talk about that? Being able to identify these things. Because I will say, a lot of the conversation and the pushback Michelle and I have got from this is a lot of businesses literally want to do things better. They just don’t know how. So if their copywriter is not bringing that solution to the table and no one else on their team is, how are they ever going to be able to evolve and change? And I think we don’t want to be nitpicking like every little tiny thing, but I think it’s like from the upfront first conversation with a client. How can you screen clients in? How can you get a client who’s going to respect your approach and your strategy and be really clear on where your deal breakers are? My deal breakers are going to be very different from everybody else’s here are deal breakers and that’s okay. But you’ve got to know too, sometimes it is okay if a client is seriously out of alignment to be like, yeah, I’m okay with getting fired. There’s been times I’ve had to part ways with clients because they have taken a turn and I’ve been like, and I’m out. And it’s just because they’ve gone too far down a path that I’m like, I, I’m like, I, I’m not going to be able to sleep at night over this. Like, and that to me is I like to be able to sleep. I like sleep a lot.

Kira Hug: The cool thing about what you’re sharing is it also allows copywriters to step into more of a consultant role, which so many of us want to do. We want to show up as a strategist and a partner and not just an order taker. And so this allows us to do that and to present solutions and ideas to say, there are other ways. Let me share some of these other ways we can go about this, which immediately changes the way your client may look at you when they’re working with you.

Maggie Patterson: I think the other thing to just add to that is just remember too, that just because you work, let’s say you work in the online space today, you’re not comfortable with the tactics. You can easily pivot to another thing. At one point, I was doing a lot of copywriting for, for lack of a better word, the seven figure coach set. And I was like, this is not for me. And I promptly pivoted back to working with tech clients because that was my history. And I’m not dealing with those things over there. So you’ve always got options. Sometimes you’re going to have to make a slow pivot out of there and be like, this is not for me. You don’t have to just accept that your clients today are, this is just the way it is.

Michelle Mazur: And I just wanted to say, I love the idea of the copywriter’s role being elevated to consultant, because I think copywriters have a key role to play in changing the industry for the better. So most of us got into business, not because we had an MBA from Harvard. But instead, we got in here because we really love writing. I love communication. I love marketing. Maggie loves service-based businesses. And we got in for that reason. And so we do not have the education on how to persuade or how to do marketing differently. Sometimes we don’t even know what all of our options are for these things. And copywriters can go in and play this unique role and say like, hey, I saw you’re using a lot of scarcity. Have you thought about this, this, and this? And really start that conversation. And they’re in there and they can help change the online industry for the better, like one client at a time by using their influence. And I think that’s a really cool opportunity.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. So I, up until now, we’ve kind of been talking about this sort of at a very high level, you know, 40,000 foot level. I would love to hear some examples of some of the awful stuff, maybe not so awful stuff. Maybe it’s just questionable that you guys have seen. You’ve been like, okay, I need to call that out. I know we’re not naming names, although I’m happy to name them. Happy to name names if you want to, but let’s talk about some of the things that we’ve seen that we’re just like, okay, that’s over the line and it really should be over the line for everybody.

Michelle Mazur: So I’ll go first because one of the things that really bugs me and it is very copywriting related is the program promises I see on websites where it’s like the program name and then add six figures of revenue to your business this year. And I know there is no way that program provider can offer that. There is no way they can promise that to everyone. But that is the promise. And that is a very sexy promise to the recipient. And we’ve gotten to a point where we have been over-promising and under-delivering for far too long. And anytime I see a promise like that, I’m like, oh! People so desperately want to believe that it can be quick, easy, fun, and lucrative. And they see something like that, and they’re like, yeah, this is going to help me get well above six figures. And it’s only $20,000. Like, wow, what a great ROI. And then they go in there, and they realize that the program’s not aligned with them, or it isn’t right for their business model. But it’s the sexy promise that you can’t actually promise, because it’s not in your control. bothers me to no end, because we have seen it. I mean, it’s getting slightly better, but still, it’s like, yeah, Maggie’s like, not really, Michelle. But it’s just, it’s a prime way that people get duped.

Rob Marsh: So if you want six, add six figures to your business, you got to join Michelle’s program.

Maggie Patterson: Michelle’s program is for a billion dollar people.

Rob Marsh: Maggie, what about you?

Maggie Patterson: There’s two that kind of dovetail really nicely with that, and they’re all interrelated, is the income claim marketing. That to me, I am sick to death of it. Whether that be your Instagram bio, your program promise, your how much money, honestly I don’t care how much money you make in your business. I’m lacking so much context for that and it doesn’t tell me anything about what you’re going to do for me as a consumer. So the whole income claim marketing thing, like I will die on that hill Absolutely. Unless someone can literally show me that that is the actual result audited by a third party. And guess what? I’ve yet to see that. Because I go and look.

Kira Hug: Even if they can, it’s like, well, what does that mean to me though, right? It’s like, great, you did that yourself, but how is that relevant to me?

Maggie Patterson: Exactly. So you’re now like, okay, I’ll use you care as an example, Kira saying I made a gazillion dollars, and I help all of my clients make a bajillion dollars, like, it is so empty, and consumers are sick of it. Because I will tell you this, as much as someone is like, this is the way we have to do it. There’s 10 consumers you don’t know about who you just repulsed. that went, I’m out. And closely related with that is testimonials. These completely over the top testimonials that are truly like the top 1% of results that reflect survivorship bias. This is not reality. You need to be using testimonials that reflect the average client result. If you are only ever picking your star clients, you are misleading people. And you have to be really careful with this stuff Because, especially in the U.S. I’m not in the U.S., so I can do whatever I want, I guess. But, you know, the FTC is starting to pay more and more attention to this. Things like income claims without substantiation and proof, like, guaranteed, there are going to be more public proceedings against this. We’re starting to see it, and we will see more and more of it. There needs to be truth and integrity in what you are saying you will do for your clients and what you are able to provide.

Michelle Mazur: Ooh, I have another one I want.

Rob Marsh: Let’s keep going.

Michelle Mazur: I know. I’m all like, oh, I’m fired up now. I can do it so you can do it to type messaging, where people are basing their expertise solely on what worked for them to build their business. So they say they have the proven process to get to six figures because This is what I did to get to six figures and now I’m going to sell it to everyone because it will work for everyone. And then the problem becomes when you don’t have real expertise and your proven process doesn’t work, real experts can adapt, right? We can pivot, we can think, we can be like, let me find out information and adapt this and tailor it to you. But if you’re selling your proven process and you’ve only done it for yourself, That’s all you got. It’s so shallow and there’s so much marketing and I think income claims, luxury lifestyle fit into this where it’s marketing based on envy, which my friend Jay Klaus was talking about. I was like, yes, we see this. They’re like, oh, they can do it. They have this great life. They have these cars. Purses from Chanel and whatever else, oh, and I can do it too if I just follow what they’re saying.” And that is not true and they might not even be able to help you, your type of business, or they might not even be experts in what they say they are, right? So it drives me nuts.

Maggie Patterson: And you know what goes hand in hand with that is this whole invest at all costs message. It’s like the final part of that sale, it’s like I’m going to turn. the screws to you a little, where it’s basically like, if you want this bad enough, you are going to invest. And this is where we see people doing kind of the classic objection handling that just goes too far. Like questions, answer the questions. But when we get into I’m going to handle objections, you’re now infantilizing your client, potential customers and clients. And what we’ve seen a lot of is this is how you can come up with the money. This is if you believe you will get x, y, and z. It’s just so sketchy and scammy and manipulative. And this I think we can all safely say that there is no surefire invest X, get Y at this point. I think we’ve been trying this as an industry for so long. So for me, it is the biggest red flag. If you see someone encouraging you to override your better instincts to shut down your critical thinking and get out your credit card. And this is why I will say to every single person on the planet, if you are ever on a call and someone wants to commit right there with your credit card, please close the Zoom and leave because nothing good is going to happen.

Kira Hug: Yeah, I’ve been on those calls.

Rob Marsh: But I mean, what’s crazy is sometimes like I’ve seen those calls, or have heard people talk, you know, like, you got to get them to have the commitment before they talk to their partner or whatever. But in my experience, if you trust them with the information to talk to their partner, oftentimes the partner becomes your best ally in, if your program works and actually solves the problem that they have, the partner is oftentimes the one that says, you should totally get that if it’s going to do this thing that you want it to do or you need it to do. So I think sometimes that stuff doesn’t just, it’s not just scammy, it backfires.

Maggie Patterson: A hundred percent. When I’m enrolling people into my masterminds, I have people who are like, I want to sign up right now where we’re having the conversation. They’ve been listening to podcasts. interacting on social media, whatever. And they’re like, I want to sign up right now. And I’m like, no, absolutely not. Go away and think about it. I’m going to send you the link and please sign up in 48 hours. If you are still ready, go sleep on it. We should all want this. We should not want people who are showing up who are like, it’s one thing to be keen, but it scares me when someone is that eager because that to me, I’m like, Ooh, is there a little desperation there? I don’t like it.

Michelle Mazur: And for me, I think this goes back to how can you give people agency? How can you give them the information that they need to make a decision? And maybe that is going to have a conversation with their partner or it’s taking a beat. Like I never make a sales decision on a call ever. It is my policy in my business. And so, and I’ve been on those calls where they’re like, well, if you commit right now, I’m like, no, I’m not committing now. I won’t. It’s not how I work and if they can’t like it’s like. Because I want to make sure that the numbers work. I want to make sure that this is the best decision, that I am making it from a place of being solid, that this is a direction I want to go in versus that rush just to get the credit card. So yeah, I’m always like, how can we prioritize people’s agency and give them what they need to make the best decision for their business?

Kira Hug: I think now might be a good time to say people listening might feel called out by these tactics like maybe they’ve done any of them. I know I’ve done many of them. But that’s what I love about your show is that you two are not afraid to say, we’ve done this or I’ve done this previously, like we’re all we’ve all made these mistakes as we’re learning and thinking differently about how to give agency to prospects and market differently. And so I would love to hear from each of you as far as a recent shift you’ve made and how you market or write or operate your business as of maybe the last year because you’re evolving and how you’re thinking about your business.

Maggie Patterson: Hmm, in the last year.

Kira Hug: Maggie, maybe you made all your shifts a couple years ago. I think so. We can go back in time. We can go back in time.

Maggie Patterson: Oh, I mean, I’m very vocal about the fact I 100% have used income claims in the past. And I will say this, when I use them, I had been encouraged to do so by a number of people I was working with at the time, and I was exceptionally uncomfortable. I was just like, this to me is like, as someone with a long marketing career felt, and I thought, oh, this is what I have to do in this industry. And you know what, I decided that was not going to work for me, ultimately, at the end of the day, because I felt so misaligned. I didn’t even want to promote those offers because I felt gross about it. And like, I don’t believe in any way, shape or form that has hurt me to not use income claims. So I stand by that. Does it mean maybe I’m growing a little slower? Sure. I want to grow in a way that I’m here for the long haul. So I will totally admit I have used income claims and don’t feel good about it.

Michelle Mazur: I think for me, one of the shifts that I have made in the past year is like, so I have a community and that community launches. It’s now evergreen, but I’m still doing semi-regular campaigns. And everybody says, oh, you need to do something like a launch event or you’re teaching them something. And then you switch into the pitch, right? And that has always felt terrible to me. You are here to learn something from me, and then I’m going to pitch you. There’s a huge shift in energy from like, ooh, I’m teaching, I’m teaching, I’m teaching, and now I’m selling, selling, selling. It’s a different vibe. And I was like, okay, so how can I not do that? How can I be 100% transparent that what I’m going to be talking about is this offer? So for the Expert Up Club, I offer an open house, which is actually a really good thing because selling a community is very different. It’s a little bit more abstract. So saying like, hey, you can come in. I’m going to show you around, show you the resources. You’ll get to meet some of the people who are part of the community. And then it’s clear from the get-go that this is your opportunity to book a call with me to explore or to join the community. So you get less people to sign up for your open house. But the people who show up actually know you’re selling them something from the get-go. And they tell me, they’re like, oh, yeah, I got a lot out of this. And I’m like, great. I’m glad you learned something. But I’m also glad that I was just very transparent, like, hey, I’m showing you around. Because I feel like that level of transparency and also telling them, like, yeah, I’m showing you around, but then you can apply and then have a call with me to make sure this is the absolute right decision for you. Because I just want to get like, here is your information. If you’re unsure, apply, book a call, we’ll talk about it. Like there’s no pressure here. And I feel like that has been a very successful way to promote it. And it has just felt in alignment, in integrity, instead of that kind of bait and switch feel of like a webinar or a challenge or other events that we can put on.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I’ve seen that happening almost across the marketing industry over the last few years. I think our friend Brittany McBean pointed it out in 2020. She’s like, look, people are signing up for your webinar. They know you’re going to pitch it at the end. So why hide that? Why not just say it right up front? I’m going to be sharing the program with you. And she talked about how that actually helped, right? Because people there’s there’s no drop off when you make that turn and start to pitch or whatever, because people are expecting it. And it’s just a much more more, uh, it just feels better, I guess, uh, is what I, what I’d say. And, and we’ve seen that I’ve seen that switch almost across the board now where people, uh, tend to begin a webinar, not always, but probably 70% of them that I, that I’ve seen, they start with that kind of a, I’m going to share something with you. One thing I have seen twice though, in the last month with webinars that I just like logged onto to, Oh, I want to see what this is about or whatever people promised state to the end bonuses and did not deliver. Like, like, like, I will be giving away a $200, you know, Amazon card. And like, I didn’t, I wasn’t there. Maybe you just weren’t chosen, Rob. No, no, no. I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t, I wasn’t there for the card. Like, that’s not what I was there. But I just, like, I got to the end, and I was like, wait a second, they didn’t give the thing away. And then literally, a different, totally different person, totally different webinar, totally different offer, free offer, whatever. Same thing. They didn’t give the state to the end bonus. And I was like, That’s got to be a mistake, right? That’s not a new thing, but maybe, I don’t know.

Maggie Patterson: Oh, it probably is a new thing. We’ll talk about it on Duped soon.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. It wouldn’t surprise me if somebody is teaching that and hoping that people forget that you offer the stay to the end bonus. I love the fact that people are being more open about like, yeah, I’m going to be sharing my offer with you because I think the industry needs that because I feel like webinars have a very bad reputation and they aren’t as successful anymore because of the years of be like, I’m going to give you like 10 minutes and then a 50 minute sales pitch. And I think now webinars kind of have this bad rap and people are very skeptical of going and signing up. And I think we’ve seen that people don’t show up, like the show up rate is getting lower and lower.

Maggie Patterson: But it also speaks to the entire thing of like, we need to give our potential customers and clients the benefit of being not just transparent, but knowing they’re smart enough to know that if we’re not transparent, they’re going to go, nope, I’m out. And I think often we forget about that. Like I’ve seen a lot of people talk about marketing like a human. And I’m like, well, are you marketing like a robot instead? Like, This is Michelle’s pet peeve. She doesn’t like it. But I mean, ultimately, like, please be respectful of your audience. And like, give them the benefit of the doubt that they are gonna know what you’re doing. And a common conversation I have—this one cracks me up—this is one of my pet peeves is When people don’t have the price on a program and then you have to apply to find out this, like, don’t waste my time. I am a full adult. I know my budget. Tell me what it is. I don’t want to be persuaded. Like, I’m just like, to me, I’m like, nope. And do you know how many things I would have signed up for if I’d known the price? I assume I just go, no, it’s a scam. And every time I talk about this, people push back and be like, people need to be coached, people do this. And I’m like, no, they don’t. Because what they see is they know how many people applied and then signed up. They don’t see the number of people that aren’t even going to touch it. Because they’re not tracking their metrics that well, I can guarantee it. They don’t know how many people were on that page. So please don’t argue with me about that one, because please just be respectful of your audience. And don’t waste their time. Nobody has time to waste. Make it easy for people, and just be straight up about it.

Michelle Mazur: Especially if it goes back to that transparency and agency and giving people everything they need to know, because if my budget is $2,500 and then I show up on a call and it’s $10K, I’ve wasted my time and I’ve also wasted yours because there is no coaching you can do to get me to cough up $7,500 that I wasn’t planning on spending.

Maggie Patterson: Michelle, that’s a limiting belief. You would be able to come up with that money. I think you should open three more credit cards. Yes, I think you don’t want it bad enough and you need to work on your manifestation skills. Clearly, clearly.

Kira Hug: I want to pivot to NLP because I don’t want to run out of time without talking about a couple hot topics. I mean, you cover so many great topics on your podcast. One is NLP. I’m just interested in your perspectives on it, because I think there is some confusion in the marketplace about it, especially for writers, especially for writers, as far as what’s useful, what’s not useful. So feel free to rant or share your thoughts.

Michelle Mazur: So Dr. Stephen Hassan, he created the BITE model for cult indoctrination. And he talks about the fact that neuro linguistic programming is completely amoral, right? Like it really depends on the practitioner and how they’re using it. You can’t really have informed consent with it. because it’s like embedded in so many things and it’s in so many like copywriting techniques and marketing techniques that people don’t know that you’re messing with their mind and haven’t opted in to that. They can’t consent. So it’s completely amoral and you just have to hope that the person you’re dealing with who is messing with your brain has your best intentions at heart.

Maggie Patterson: And I think what’s interesting is where it shows up in online marketing is everywhere. Some of the most pervasive, most common copywriting techniques that we’ve all been taught are laden with NLP because what’s happened is since the 70s when this was created, which if anyone wants the deep dive, go listen to this episode on duped because we go in the whole history. This has come out of different psychological practices, then moves into being a communications thing. I literally had an NLP practitioner who was a master NLP practitioner on my podcast. She couldn’t explain truly what it was. But it does show up in these things like mirroring, repetitive language, how you’re breaking down objections. So you have to, I think, check in with yourself to be like, Where does this, and I think a really good question for a copywriter is, where does this come from? Let me go Google this. What is the origin of this technique? Because so many of the things are, some are pseudoscience, some are very effective. NLP is very kind of in the middle. We don’t really know what works and what doesn’t because it hasn’t been studied because people who are going to study things don’t really have time for NLP. And that, for me, tells me what I need to know. They’re just NLP. This is for pickup artists and scam artists.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, the industry like psychology, communication, they don’t really see it as a valid form of inquiry. And they don’t think that NLP has validity. So they don’t want to study it. Because it’s not something you want to stake your career on if you’re an academic.

Rob Marsh: I don’t blame them. I mean, I hear, I see people talking about NLP all the time. And I’m like, that doesn’t feel real. It doesn’t feel like that would work. It feels obvious or over the top oftentimes. So yeah, I don’t blame anybody for looking at it and saying, I’m not interested in looking into that any deeper.

Maggie Patterson: Here’s the funniest part, and this is the two creators of NLP that created it back in the 70s. Eventually, as it became, and it’s baked into so much self-help, eventually they started having a battle. And they had pictured this, the world’s greatest communication system. Guess what? They stopped talking to each other. So if their communication system worked, shouldn’t they have been able to work out their differences?

Kira Hug: They weren’t mirroring each other enough.

Maggie Patterson: Clearly. They messed it up. And I’m sure there’s somebody who’s listening who’s like, NLP, I love it. Great. It’s not for me, and I personally have a lot of issues. But if it’s working for you, bless.

Kira Hug: Maybe the awareness, maybe for writers listening who are not familiar, maybe it’s worth just, like you said, looking into the history, understanding the history, and then understanding some of the principles and tactics just so you’re aware of it, and you can spot it as a consumer, and you can also just be aware of it as a practitioner, whether or not you choose to use it. Okay, let’s talk about parasocial relationships and marketing because that sounds interesting. So I’d love to hear what that is and how that shows up. How can we be aware of it as consumers? And maybe if our role as copywriters play into that, we should also be aware of that side too.

Michelle Mazur: I love this topic because it really goes back to the heart of my communication studies. Parasocial relationships were identified in the 50s by two mass communication researchers. What they were seeing was these one-sided relationships that people were developing with TV characters. It actually got its start in like looking at soap operas and the relationship people had with the characters on soap operas, but have expanded to like journalists and celebrities. And it’s really this feeling like, oh, I really know this person. I like them. I trust them. I’m following them everywhere. And it used to just be this bastion for celebrities, right? Like Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is a master at developing parasocial relationships. She lets her people in. She publishes parts of her journal. Her song lyrics are really personal. So people feel like, oh my gosh, I really know Taylor. Taylor knows nothing about you, though. And now that we’re in the social media atmosphere where we can follow people or listen to their podcast and we’re in somebody’s ear, people can feel like they know us and they can trust us, which is something we have to be really aware of because they’re going to develop these. There’s nothing you can do to stop a parasocial relationship from developing. It’s just going to happen if you’re doing any kind of marketing. But realizing that when you recommend something, like, oh, the other person on the end who has this relationship with you is going to take that seriously. They have developed that whole no like and trust factor. If you go back to Robert Cialdini’s work, there is familiarity and liking happening, which makes you a very influential and persuasive source of information for them. So there’s nothing ethically wrong with having parasocial relationships. Most of them are kind of fun for a lot of us. Like I have a parasocial relationship with Simon Le Bon that I’ve had since like I was eight. So they’re fine to have, but as consumers, we always have to realize that just because we know, like, and trust someone doesn’t mean that they have our best intentions at heart when they’re selling to us because they don’t know us at all. So how is it possible to have those best intentions for you?

Rob Marsh: And this is why this is why celebrity endorsements work, right? Yes. Yeah.

Maggie Patterson: So if you look at it from the copywriting point of view, I really look at it as you have a responsibility as a copywriter to not lean so hard on the parasocial relationship that’s been developed through content and other means, and using it in a way that you are not creating a situation where there’s an expectation. And here’s a great example, we see this a ton. A lot of the big names, air quotes, in this industry, have very strong personal brands. Then they sell these mastermind programs and people get inside and go, but I don’t get person Y. And what happens is there’s a complete breakdown between they have fostered a parasocial relationship and then in the sales copy, in the sales process, people think they’re going to get that person. They bought it for that person. So how do you ensure that if you’re not If you’re using your personal brand or you’re writing for someone with a personal brand and you’re not going to be the person, how do you create transparency about how the program is structured? Are there additional coaches? What does this actually look like? How much of that person do you get, if anything? If there’s a group call, do you have to apply to have your question answered or do you answer all the questions? Are you actually going to get any attention? Because here’s the thing, people get so frustrated by this because it’s a bait and switch for them because they signed up expecting that person and they walk away deeply disappointed because they aren’t getting anything from the person they thought they had the relationship with. And I think that’s where I see the frustration from people. They’re like, this is not what I signed up for. And it’s because the copy is designed to use that parasocial relationship to get people to buy when it’s not actually flowing into things. Whereas I know in your groups, they get Rob and Kira. In my groups, they get me. In Michelle’s, they get Michelle. So we can, with integrity, have those things. But if you’re not doing those things, you need to be very thoughtful about that. I think as a copywriter, you can influence ensuring that the experience on the sales page matches the experience on the inside.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah, and I think the other interesting thing like thinking about it from a marketing perspective is if you are not going to be a part of the relationship that happens within the program. How do you lift up the other voices that people will be interacting with? So when you get there, you know, these people already exist. You have some type of maybe like a, like a beginning parasocial relationship with them. So it doesn’t feel like a bait and switch, but I do think that is the huge danger of personal brands. It’s like, oh, I feel like I know you and now I get to actually talk to you. Oops, just kidding, you don’t. That is going to cause the parasocial relationship to go south and reputational damage, I would imagine.

Kira Hug: That’s great advice. I think as copywriters, it’s also easy, you know, especially if you’re a newer copywriter, you want to write the sales page or the email copy and you want to sell that offer for your client because you need that testimonial and that win. So I think it’s easy to overlook OK, are we being really transparent here? Are we just trying to sell this expert? Or are we talking about their coaches? So that’s a great reminder for me. As we start to wrap this up, I’m curious if you two, as you’ve spoken up, I know you’ve been speaking up for years. But as you’ve leaned into this topic and going really deep here, what has the feedback been like for the two of you? I don’t want to be I don’t want to be negative and say like there must be a backlash but like how what has been your experience because you’re talking about topics that are triggering for people who because they’ve done it or they’ve made those mistakes or they’ve consumed and bought in this way and they feel shame and so how has that what has that been like?

Michelle Mazur: So I will start because since I am not active on social media, Maggie gets the majority of the negative backlash, whereas I do not because I am not. that I’m not publicly available on social media anymore by choice. And I think for me, the way that I see, and I know Maggie has this experience too, is when I get emails from someone who is like, oh my gosh, I almost bought this program. And then I listened to this episode of Duped and you saved me from making this investment. You saved me this much money. We get multiples of those emails and that feels good because it’s like, Oh, we’re actually making a dent. And I think we’ve And I think the other piece of feedback that I have gotten is that we normalize making these mistakes. And there’s no shame in it. It’s happened to every one of us. Maggie and I included have been duped. So for me, I get to see a lot of the good stuff because I’m not on social media. And I do get to see some of the bad stuff because Maggie shares with me on Voxer things people are saying to her. So I’ll let her cover that.

Maggie Patterson: But I, you know, Michelle, I think there’s one kind of interesting point in between the good and the bad. And it’s not been as much lately, but in the, I would, we’re three years in the first year and a half, we got a lot of feedback that was along the lines of demand. Why aren’t you, why aren’t you naming names? You’re being cowardly. You’re like, there were a lot of people that were really trying to, um, enforce what they wanted. They wanted us to create a podcast that was like a burn book that we were just going to take it all down. And I was like, you’ve got it all wrong. If you think I have the emotional capacity to do that, I do not.

Michelle Mazur: Yeah. Oh, I remember that. That was just like, yeah, they’re like, you have to name names. Otherwise, we don’t know who’s bad. And I’m all like, these people are like whack-a-mole. It’s better for you to be able to spot the patterns than Maggie and I creating a good bad list. Plus there’s no room for redemption and change. Like I do not ever want to label someone publicly because that takes away their opportunity for redemption and change and we also worry about being sued.

Rob Marsh: Well not only that, not everybody is bad in every situation, right? You know, so, so Maggie may make a promise that does not work for me and my business, but that does not mean that it’s not going to work for Kira. And so, you know, or a tactic used in one situation is not necessarily negative in every situation. So let me, I mean, let me give you an example. And this, I, I sort of have some weird feelings about this, but my mom had Alzheimer’s and she passed away a few years ago. When she was first diagnosed, she spent some money buying books about brain training and some nutritional supplements that have no way to help her. There is no cure for Alzheimer’s. She knew that, and yet in purchasing those supplements and those books, it gave her a modicum of hope that lasted for a while so that she could deal with her disease when it first started out. My mom was not poor. She was not in some situation where she was spending money that she needed for medication or something else. I don’t know all of the promises that were made and the things that she said, but she bought something that was probably not going to work for her, but it gave her hope. That to me is okay because that hope has value. Now, in another situation, I think it’s completely wrong. If somebody didn’t have money to afford it or was in a different kind of a situation, then that’s a negative. So I don’t think you can have a good and a bad list. I think it’s very situational. And I think as marketers, we need to approach this from a place where I am only going to sell things that work to the people who it works for. And if we do that, we’re probably going to be okay, even if you are, you know, using scarcity or urgency, you know, in your marketing, because the people that you’re talking to are the people that you can actually help and deliver results for. If you can’t do that, you shouldn’t be in marketing in the first place.

Maggie Patterson: Rob, I totally agree. And I think going back to the whole, like, what is the feedback been is Michelle and I, I like to think we’re doing a pretty good job of straddling the in between of like, we’re not snarkers, we’re not starting snark channels on YouTube or Reddit, like that’s not, I personally bless, I do not want to do that with my time. I know. But also to like, we’re not going to spend our time pretending that things are okay. So there’s got to be a middle ground. And I think for me, the most interesting part of this has always been when I personally got my character called into question, because I’m not calling anyone else’s character into question. But people think the right way to characterize this is people really, even though I continuously say like, I’m talking about patterns here, they become triggered, they react, and they come at me. And I’m very grateful to find a place in my life where I can approach them with a lot of patience and kindness. And I have really good boundaries, and I’m able to shut it down. But for example, every time I talk about upcharges on payment plans, people come at me and I’m like, No, go read the other five hundred thousand zillion comments here about like it’s not just me there’s all these people and you’re the outlier here so please be willing to change and I think for anybody if you’re listening to duped or consuming any type of content where you’re like Oh, I feel attacked. That’s information. And it’s there for you to reflect to say, OK, you know what? Super interesting. Why do I feel that way? And maybe that’s some data that I need to go and prove that versus lashing out. And I think the last part of this is, The most conversation I have seen about this has been on threads in the last little bit. And there is a real pushback against them calling it mean girl marketing. I guess I’m a mean girl suddenly at this point in my life, which is hilarious because I would imply I’m cool. you know, really looking at, like, if there’s all these people trying to negate this experience, maybe there’s something to it.

Kira Hug: Yeah, there’s definitely something to it. And I know that I learned from the episodes I listened to, I always like, I mean, sometimes I can feel attacked. And it’s not you two who are attacking me. It’s just like, Oh, yeah, I didn’t. I did that. I didn’t think about it this way. And I always learn something that I can implement, even if I can’t implement it all right away. It’s just like, you can take one idea and put it into practice. And so I appreciate what you two are doing and the impact that you’re going to make. I know it’s really hard to get that blowback. Thank you for doing it. For our listeners who want to learn more about duped or learn more about what the two of you are doing in your businesses, where should they go?

Michelle Mazur: Well, you can go to Duped.online for all things Duped. We’re in every podcast player everywhere, so subscribe. if you are interested in hearing these conversations. Maggie and I both have podcasts that support the other side, because this is consumer advocacy, so we’re not going to be talking about business models or how to market. If you want to learn more about how to market in a way that is aligned with your values, you can listen to my podcast, which is Make Marketing Suck Less. It is particularly for solo business owners who are juggling all the demands of client delivery and sales and marketing, and they’re really struggling to get the word out about what they do. Maggie, tell us about your podcast.

Maggie Patterson: It’s the BS Free Service Business Show. It’s for freelancers, consultants, creatives, and agency owners. Yeah, that’s a mouthful. And really talking about that journey of staying as a service business, because so much of the conversation is always like, you should stop doing services. You need a program. And I’m like, no, you don’t. You could just do more consulting, sell strategy. Oh, guess what? You don’t have to have an agency. Kind of challenging a lot of the conventional teachings of don’t trade time for dollars culture. And that’s everywhere the podcasts are on the internet.

Rob Marsh: Awesome. Thanks guys for joining us. We appreciate it.

Maggie Patterson: Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah. Thank you.Rob Marsh: Okay, that’s the end of our interview.

Rob Marsh: I usually end the podcast with a few observations related to what we talked about on the episode. Today I want to be clear. All four of us on this podcast love marketing. It’s become common for some in our industry to criticize the use of things like a deadline timer or social proof or tactics like open loops to keep readers engaged. They often call it bro marketing or something similar.

Let’s be clear. Tactics are not good or evil. There is a place for all of them. It all comes down to how you use them. If you are decieving readers, that’s not good even if your product can help them. Manipulation doesn’t belong in a copywriter’s tool box, even if the product or service you offer delivers a result. We need to respect our customers. Trust them to know what’s best for them. Help give them the information they need to make wise decisions. And be okay with it when they don’t.

It’s funny, I’ve even seen a few people who claim to be ethical or some other watchword to communicate they are above using these tactics, turn around and use the same ideas they criticize when others use them. 

I love marketing. I’m here to defend it. It is an effective tool set that helps people with problems find the solutions that change their lives. That’s something we can all be proud of. So keep your customer’s best interests at heart. Don’t take advantage. Don’t do things that benefit you but not them. 

This thing we do is a superpower. But the thing about super powers is they can be used for good or evil. Use yours for good.

Thanks again to maggie and Michelle for joining us to chat about ethics in marketing. If you want to go even deeper, we recommend you check out their podcast, Duped wherever you listen to podcasts.

At some point in your business journey, you will hit a snag. An obstacle. A bump in the road. These bottlenecks hold you back from the kind of growth or results you want. In the 384th episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob talk with business consultant Josh Long about the various bottlenecks that hold us back and what to do to breakthrough and achieve more. Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff to check out:

Bottleneck Breakthrough by Josh Long (book) qyJegGGhTztHxm-8WUJ9pVIYDcLrhiCzxon3uyJzMPBeqz-p22R7vp2nO5mmkIlO5CherRSyPA98.CrsQOjPax5bY9veqpBtgDkK1Wrzn5F5IWO61x8883u0&qid=1708997750&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=6d0dc5308d914b869f7a810b65281648&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Ultimate Sales Machine by Chet Holmes Blue Ocean Strategy by Chan Kim. The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Every business—large and small, successful or struggling, profitable or barely scraping by hits it’s share of bottlenecks. If you’re struggling or barely scraping by, those bottlenecks are usually obvious. Not enough leads. Not closing enough projects. Or not enough profit. Identifying bottlenecks in a successful business can be a little more difficult… it takes a deeper look at what’s holding you back or slowing you down.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, I had a chance to talk with business consultant, coach and author Josh Long.

Josh is the author of a fantastic book, Bottleneck Breakthroughs, that is written to help business owners of all sizes figure out what’s holding them back. And during our conversation we stepped through what it takes to grow and build a business at all stages, and how our businesses are slowed down when we don’t pay attention to the six levers Josh wrote about in his book.

We stepped through all six and if you’re a copywriter or content writer with your own business, you’ll definitely want to hear what Josh had to share.

But first, I want to tell you about The Copywriter Underground. You’ve heard about the library of training that will help you build a profitable business. You’ve heard about the monthly coaching, and the almost weekly copy critiques and the helpful group of members ready with support and even the occasional lead. Last week we recorded an exclusive training for Underground members on the diagnostic scorecard that helps you close just about any prospect or project on a sales call. It’s the kind of business secret you don’t read about in free facebook groups or even on most email lists. But right now, you can watch that training and get the diagnostic scorecard to help you close more projects when you go to thecopywriterclub.com/tcu and join as a member.  But hurry, that training disappears in a few weeks.

Now to our interview with Josh…

Rob Marsh: All right, Josh, I’m familiar with you and your book and some of the stuff that you do, but just to get started here and let our audience know, tell me a little bit about how you became a management consultant, business coach, author and all of the things that you’re doing today. Josh Long: Yeah, Rob, thanks. Well, when I was in kindergarten and they said, what do you want to be when you grow up? I just thought, you know, that’s what I want to be—a consultant.

Rob Marsh: Yeah.

Josh Long: Not quite, not quite on the radar. Back then I was trying to get into med school and I had a professor who suggested I get my MBA while I was waiting to get into med school. I didn’t even know what MBA stood for. I got in and went to Fresno State. They had an entrepreneurship program. And you could major in your MBA in entrepreneurship. And I was like, that’s crazy. And I loved it. 

I had met my wife while I was in grad school, and every doctor that I knew that was married before med school wasn’t married after med school. I knew that I valued her more than my career, so I decided to go the entrepreneurial route. 

I got out, tried a software venture in grad school that failed, but it was a really cool opportunity. Then my roommate was in the mortgage business, so I got into the mortgage world. I quickly learned how little I knew how to run a company. So a friend of a friend introduced me to a guy named Dan Kennedy and I latched onto his stuff and just gobbled it up. And it really helped me understand what it takes to get clients, and to sell to clients, and to understand that dynamic of just building demand and then go from there. 

And then I filed bankruptcy. I had a mortgage brokerage for four years, and went down in a ball of flames. And while I was licking my wounds, figuring out what I wanted to do, I had read a guy’s book called qyJegGGhTztHxm-8WUJ9pVIYDcLrhiCzxon3uyJzMPBeqz-p22R7vp2nO5mmkIlO5CherRSyPA98.CrsQOjPax5bY9veqpBtgDkK1Wrzn5F5IWO61x8883u0&qid=1708997750&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=6d0dc5308d914b869f7a810b65281648&camp=1789&creative=9325">The Ultimate Sales Machine by a guy named Chet Holmes. And I really liked it so I reached out to him and went to work for him and grew to be his right-hand man in that company for a couple of years. I ended up becoming marketing director and realized I could go out and do consulting on my own. I have done that since about 2010. And so that’s how I ended up getting into management consulting through the door of Dan Kennedy and marketing and Chet Holmes and sales and I’ve been doing it ever since.

Rob Marsh: So mentioned Dan Kennedy, Chet Holmes, you’ve worked with Jay Abraham, I think.

Josh Long: Perry Marshall. Yep. Got to know Jay through Chet. They were good friends. I spent time down in Jay’s office. He’s a very kind, generous, brilliant man. Yeah, and I work closely with Perry Marshall. We’ve been partnering on a project for the last six years called Advanced Mastery Network, where we help companies that are trying to get across what I call a seven-figure desert. Because you can have a really great company in the $1 to $2 to $3 million range that becomes a cash cow. But you don’t want to get stuck at five to seven million. You’ve got to get to 10 million if you’re going to try to cross that desert. So we’ve been running that and Perry’s a great guy. Obviously how we found each other.

Rob Marsh: Perry introduced me to you through sharing your ideas. But you know, as you’ve worked with these masters of business—not even online business, but business—over the last decade or two, what are the biggest lessons that you’ve taken away from those guys?

Josh Long: Yeah, well, the first one is, They have charisma for days like they’re born with it. So anybody that thinks they want to be the next Dan Kennedy, J. Abraham, or Perry Marshall, I will tell you, you can’t. It’s not possible. You either have it, you’re born with it, or you’re not. I ended up teaching at Fresno State. I taught for four semesters, business plan writing and feasibility analysis in undergrad for entrepreneurs. The program director, who was my program director, Tim Stearns, brilliant guy, we would talk and we would debate, are entrepreneurs born or can they be made? And obviously, Tim is an educator. He was the chair of the entrepreneurship program. He created it. It was one of the only entrepreneurship programs in the nation. And so he wholeheartedly believes that entrepreneurs can be made. 

This is one of the few places on fixed mindset, I would say, that I actually believe in. Otherwise, everything else is learnable and expandable. But I really do think entrepreneurs are born. I really think they have the DNA, the wiring, the charisma, the ability to communicate, the ability to take risks. And seeing that magnified in Dan and Jay and Chet and Perry—they’re just wired to be on the stage. 

The other fascinating thing is just how brilliant they all are and how fast their minds move and how fast they can synthesize ideas and data and connect dots. So that was really fun. And it was really fulfilling because I got to do that a lot with Chet. He and I would have a weekly call and we’d be going through strategy for clients. I was 15 years younger than anybody else in the company and the consulting side, and yet I was his go-to. I was his brainstormer. So that was really fulfilling to validate my ability to just connect those dots. 

Other things I would say, being around those guys helped me realize that for you to get the most from them, you have to be incredibly coachable and wired in a way that you resonate with them. Because as coaches, as consultants, as advisors, there’re a lot of different personality types, and there’s a lot of ways that things can get done, right? You can skin a cat a lot of different ways. But To work with Dan or Jay or Chet or Perry, you’ve got to resonate with them. You’ve got to be in their lane, so to speak, on their frequency. Because their way isn’t the only way. It’s a very effective way, and it can work really well. And they’ve got troves of success stories.

But I think this was important for me to realize because, like a guy that’s really popular right now, Alex Hormozy, right? Brilliant guy. And he’s a great educator. But his hustle and grind philosophy does not work with me, doesn’t resonate with me one bit. I don’t care. I’m not that money motivated. I have a family. I’ve got three teenage kids. I’ve got a great wife. I’m not gonna work 80-hour weeks just to achieve something. And so knowing that, I think, is another thing. 

And I’d see people that would come into these orbits and feel bad because they couldn’t get results following some of these guys’ advice. And Chet was probably the most hard-nosed of the bunch. He had a very grinder persona. And caring, I mean, all of them have big hearts. I think Dan is the one that reveals his the least. He tries to be the grumpy curmudgeon, but he really does care about everybody. But Chet was the most grinding of the bunch. And I realized I could fit there, I could get along, but it wasn’t my nature. Like, that’s not who I am at my core.

Rob Marsh: So this is an interesting idea, the made versus born idea, but also how much hustle does it take to be an entrepreneur? I actually posted on LinkedIn about this a little while ago, and there were a lot of people debating back and forth. A lot of people push back against the hustle culture. I have a sense that—and this is just from my experience looking out at the world—I can’t recognize a single successful business where the founder founders didn’t have to hustle or if you don’t like that word hustle didn’t have to bust their butts sometimes for years to make it happen and so that probably goes along with what you’re saying. You almost have to be born with that hustle—maybe hustle’s the wrong word… drive. The drive is probably a better word in order to make that happen. 

Josh Long: I think there’s a couple paths so like many, I just fell into entrepreneurship. My grandfather had an educational games company when I was a kid, but he was an educator and his two partners were educators. He passed away when I was 18. So he was not around for me in my early entrepreneurial career. I didn’t really have a mentor or guide. And I was just making a lot of mistakes. When you start that route, you’re very isolated, you’re trying to just prove yourself, to get out there you go through the Dunning-Kruger effect, right? 

You start with all this confidence and all this bravado and no skill. And as you gain skill, you quickly learn how little you know, right? And as I tell my kids all the time, wisdom makes life so much easier. Unfortunately, most of our wisdom is gained through making mistakes, right? So that’s one path. And that is the most common path, right? I think there’s a better path. And this is the one that I encourage anybody that has the ability and the time and the wherewithal—go get mentored by somebody. Go work in a company that runs really well. And we see this in the PayPal mafia or the Google experience of people that come out of those places. They are able to go launch successful businesses because they’ve seen what success looks like. 

Now, I’m not saying they’re not working hard, but it’s definitely not as much of a grind when I see those people come out and succeed. I see this a lot in management consulting on the higher end, like the private equity guys, or people that start in high end management consulting, move into private equity, and they just have a smoother path, because they’ve learned on the job from somebody else that really knew what they were doing. And so that’s the ideal to me is go get the experience, go get the mastery, go learn it without all of the pressure of payroll, without all of the pressure of getting clients, without all of the pressure of things breaking, and the sleepless nights, and all of that stuff. 

It’s not that one’s right or wrong. By no means am I beating up or belittling anybody that is working really hard and trying to find their way. I just found there are easier, smoother paths and being around people who know how business works can make it a lot more smooth in the process.

Rob Marsh: Okay, so let’s say that I or somebody who’s listening is in that first group. We’ve been hustling. We’ve been breaking our… bouncing our heads against the wall. We’re basically hitting what I think you call the bottlenecks. Let’s talk about those things that we hit in business and some of the solutions, some of the things that you talk about in your book that help us overcome all of these problems that come up. I think you break them out into six different levers in the business, which cover various things like marketing and strategy, but can we just talk about some of those places where we get stuck as business owners?

Josh Long: Yeah, I think what happened for me early on was I was talking with so many business owners during the recession in 2008, 09 and 10, when I was working for Chet and I just started seeing these patterns show up based on their revenue stage. And so as you go through revenue plateaus, you have common problems that others at those stages have, just like developing a body, human body and a child, like child development and human development has stages that are all going to be the same, right? 

And so what I find is when you get to about a half a million in revenue, the most common bottleneck, the most common problem that you start having is starting to organize people around unique activities. Because when a company’s small, when there’s about a half a million a year in revenue, 30, 40, 50 grand a month coming in, It’s all hands on deck, right? Everybody can kind of crosstrain and do kind of everything else. Everybody kind of covers for everybody. And the team is just really an extension of the owner. They’re like go go gadget arms, right? They just make the owner’s arms a little longer to get around everything. And that’s great. And it’s a fun space to be when everybody’s willing to roll up their sleeves and everybody pulls some all nighters together. They’re up for jumping in on the weekends in a pinch. 

But when you get to about that half million dollar mark, you gotta start dividing and conquering. You gotta have specialists that somebody’s in charge of payroll or billing or accounts receivable, or sales or marketing. And it doesn’t mean that you have to have one person for each of those. Some people wear multiple hats. But knowing that, hey, here’s your hat, Rob, you really got to take care of our accounts receivable. Because our accounts receivables got too far back, we got too many, too many payments that are over 90 days late. And We all just were kind of dealing with whatever clients we came across, whatever invoice we saw. But I need you once a week for an hour every week to call everybody on this list that’s over 30 days. And we need that money in. And that’s the beginning of an org chart, right? 

That’s the beginning of creating structure. And then at a million, I mean, only 7% of businesses ever get to a million dollars a year. So you’re in rare air. It’s a very successful stage. And a lot of entrepreneurs think, oh, Once I get to a million dollars, all my problems will be solved. No, they just change. They get bigger and different. And at a million, the most common problem is you don’t have an operations person. And I call it the little Napoleon that’s just going to keep cracking the whip and making sure the trains are on time and everything’s going well. 

So you as the entrepreneur visionary can keep going out and rainmaking and getting more business or being the visionary that’s setting the strategy of figuring out where you’re going and not having to deal with fulfillment. And I find a lot of entrepreneurs that are very successful, very capable, that don’t realize they need that little Napoleon, that operations director, operations manager. What happens is when they start getting into that million dollar ceiling, they start throttling their sales. They start throttling their ability to go rain make because they know if they get more business, they’re just going to have more fires to put out on the fulfillment side. 

So those are really common patterns that I see in companies at those stages. And so what I recommend is you do a brain dump, right? You got to get stuff out of your head. 

I talk about it in the book of just how to capture all of your ideas and then how do we weigh them? How do we figure out what’s worth pursuing? What’s not, how do we prioritize? Because entrepreneurs like novelty, right? We like new ideas. We like new shiny things. We’re always looking for the new shortcut. It’s not because we’re lazy. It’s not because we’re dumb or whatever. It’s evolutionarily. We’re meant to find the shortcut, the fastest path to the fruit, to the food, to the meal, to safety. Right? So, And in the marketing world, online marketing, there’s only about 11 bajillion new shinies every day coming out, right? AI being the latest. 

And so what I walked through in the book, really, in chapter 13, is the profit priorities process. And it’s like, just dump all of your ideas in there. And then let’s go through and let’s actually score them on five different factors. Because when we score them on five different factors of how much time and effort is this going to take? What’s the cost? What’s the upside? And what’s the current pain that we’re experiencing? Then we get a much more sober perspective. And then we just look at the scores and say, oh, I didn’t think that was going to score so highly, but it did. Let’s go do that first. 

And then you’re able to get results and they compound. I’ve had some consultants that have wanted to be trained in this in the last year and I’ve taken them through it. One of them said that he took a client through this in the fall, just their leadership team, and they just dumped everything out and they scored it all. And they were shocked at the top one or two solutions that they needed to implement because nobody would have guessed that those would have been the most valuable or that would have made the biggest change. 

By going through this process, they all got unity on it, and they all were able to move forward in clarity and take action on it. And so it feels tedious, but to me, this is kind of like sharpening the axe, right? You can keep sharpening your axe so you cut trees down easier and easier, and you’re not just spinning your wheels, staying busy, getting through the end of the day and being like, I don’t feel like I got anything worthwhile done today.

Rob Marsh: Very common feeling. It’s interesting, you’re talking about these larger businesses. I was sharing with you before we started recording, we gave your book to all the members of our Think Tank mastermind. And they felt that it was incredibly valuable. And every single one of them is running a one or two person business. And so the ideas that you walk through—you don’t necessarily need a seven or ten million dollar business to benefit from the ideas you share. Even small business owners think, I need to take a step back here and figure out like, where are my leads coming from, right? Or like, how am I marketing my business? So I want to interject that—simply because I don’t want anybody who listens thinking, oh, my gosh, my business isn’t at half a million dollars. I can turn this podcast off because that is very much not the experience that I had reading your book or the members of our mastermind as well who are using it again, just as as one or two person businesses, too.

Josh Long: Right. And I think for them, when I go through their day-to-day, they’ve got to cut out a lot of things that just aren’t moving the needle. That’s the biggest activity that I recommend is to really get critical at what you feel you have to do versus what is actually making a difference, right? And that’s, again, having a sober perspective, really being critical of Gosh, you know, this is: I love this idea and I’ve got to go create a new course or something and I’m going to have this new offer and you’re going to go spend all the time creating it and you’ve not talked to anybody about it. You’ve not pitched anybody on it. You’ve not built an interest list. And so you can go spend this time on something you really think is going to be powerful and meaningful. And you spend two months in your spare time or extra time building it, and then you go to launch it and you realize, I didn’t even see this fatal flaw or I didn’t get this feedback or I didn’t do this thing. 

I think that’s where a lot of small teams and entrepreneurs, freelancers and stuff that are delivering great value to clients, they get kind of isolated and they fall in love with their own ideas and they don’t have community to just go bounce it off of or they’re too afraid to go pitch it to some prospects or clients and get the real answer of where it’s at. And so I think that’s a common one I see. 

And so I would just say, again, brain dump, get out of your head all the things you think you have to do. Let’s start go scoring them and let’s start seeing like, did this make a difference today? And I think for freelancers, a lot of times, I mean, I just saw a guy post the other day, I suffer from this, right? I’m not good at building my own list. And he said, every day, I spend a little bit of time offering something to get people on social media to join my list. And then I spend a little bit of time every day offering people on my list something to buy. And I was like, that’s so simple, right? Gosh, even I have been doing this for as long as I have. And I suffer from not doing the basics and not doing the things that are going to move the needle on a regular basis.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, again, like ringing all of the bells for me and my business, we make all of those same mistakes. And I’ve seen everybody do it. It’s interesting, we used to do an exercise with our mastermind, where we have people rate the various parts of their business, similar to some of the systems that you break down in your book. We’d have them rate red, yellow, green, based on how good are they going, right? And at the end, everybody would look at their sheet and see all this red and yellow and very little green, and it’s immediately frustrating. Like, oh my gosh, how is it so bad? 

And yet, Oftentimes, they’re running six-figure, mid-six-figure businesses. They’re succeeding. They don’t necessarily even have employees at this point. They’re running a successful business, and yet everything is still broken. I think this is something that we all experience. One of the things that as I was going through your book, became really helpful is to start breaking out where am I in strategy and what do I need to start thinking about a little bit differently? So as we think about those kinds of businesses and how we’re all broken in different ways, can you step through those six levers and just give us a sense of what we should be thinking about with each one? Like what are the one or two hot buttons, the most important things to have right or to be working on getting right?

Josh Long: One bit of encouragement for anybody that’s got those bloody sheets of red things that are broken, but you’re still making money. It means that you’re delivering something of real value. Because you found a market fit, right? You found a product market fit, as they would say that, despite not having all these other fundamentals, you’re still finding people that get value from you. So that’s, that’s the goal, right? That’s the real metric is, Am I delivering value? Am I getting rewarded for the value I deliver? And am I able to do that in a consistent way that pays my bills and makes me have the lifestyle that I want? 

And so going through the six levers—I start with strategy because that really encapsulates what Peter Drucker would say is innovation and marketing that innovation, right? He thinks that that is the backbone of all business. Everything else is a cost. Because you have to create an innovation, you have to come up with some kind of offer. And you have to be able to communicate that offer in a way to a target audience that is compelling, that gets them to take action. 

As copywriters, you guys all get that. But a lot of businesses still lose sight of that. And so what I did was I walked through the strategy of how are you differentiating from your competitors? What are the factors? And one thing that I really loved was the Blue Ocean Strategy book. And I actually got permission from them to republish some of their content in my book and walk through how I walk my clients through looking at their value curve, looking at their competition, looking at what they differentiate on. And their four factors are: What are you going to raise or create? What are you going to reduce or eliminate?

I think especially new entrepreneurs, we tend to overcomplicate things. We add way too many features. We add way too many details. We add way too much complexity that isn’t going to move the needle. And so Perry and I, we walked through this in our advanced mastery network program of, How do we proposition simplify? That’s something from Richard Koch that is not in my book, but it all fits under the strategy umbrella of as a proposition simplifier, what are you doing to add significantly more value and ease and you’re able to charge moderately more price for it? For example a proposition simplifier… I just keep coming back to the iPad. It was such an easy tool to use, and yet they charge an arm and a leg for them, right? And we don’t have to go into hardware manufacturing and all that because it’s really complex, but what can you do on the service side?

I had a client years ago as an orthodontist, who hired me to overhaul his sales process. And I went and I made these presentation books of before and after teeth for kids. And I missed an opportunity to simplify his experience more by just ordering a hundred of them to sit in his office. I made him, I designed him, and then I gave it to his office staff to order. And I gave him the link and it was like, all I had to do was just buy them for him. And it would have made the experience that much more enjoyable. So that’s looking at the strategy, like how do we make it smoother? How do we make it easier? How do we make it more valuable, especially the perceived value? and how do we differentiate? So that’s what I cover in strategy. 

Next, we move to marketing, and that’s what most small business owners think they need more than anything, because out of the gate, we need clients. Without clients, there is no business. But as you grow, marketing is no longer the main bottleneck. Other things show up, and we’ll get to those later. But when you start with marketing, the biggest thing I focus on is where is your most consistent source of quality leads coming from and how can you expand that further? And so I talk about traffic pillars like the Parthenon or Greek or Roman architecture. They have pillars that are part of their buildings that have stood thousands of years, fires, earthquakes, wars. They’re still standing to this day. And so, how can we view your traffic sources as pillars? 

Now, out of the gate, you may have some referrals, you may have a Facebook post that went viral, or something that generates a little bit, but then they kind of die down. And it’s like, okay, well, those worked, how can you beef them up a little bit? How can you turn them into more of a pillar? And getting into the fundamentals of like, how many, your funnel, right? Like, how many leads are coming in? How many conversations are you having? How many proposals are you giving? How many are you closing? And just getting an average for that. 

And of course, it’s like sales team management or marketing team management. But on a one or two person team basis, you’re still going to have a rhythm, you’re still going to have a pattern of how many people are you talking to? What’s your workload? How many clients? How often does your average client last? 

And you may be like me where it’s, I call it bimodal, right? A nerdy statistical statement, but my clients are bimodal. They either last three to five months, because either we fixed it or most often we got something deeper and they got frustrated and they tapped out or they last forever. Like that’s kind of how my clients work. And so once I started realizing that it was like, okay, let’s change the engagement. Let’s just do 90 day engagements to start with just to flesh out things and see if we can build a relationship or if we’re just going to part as friends because it’s not working instead of just jumping in. And I always want to marry everybody cause I love people and I love helping and I just want to put a ring on their finger and say, let’s work together forever. But the reality is half of my clients—we run into deeper and deeper bottlenecks that they don’t want to deal with at the end of the day, or I haven’t figured out how to get them to deal with in a diplomatic way. So that’s marketing. I’ve been rambling for a while.

Rob Marsh: I feel like I feel like I’m in an MBA class learning about how to run my business. But when you talk about those people who tap out, you know, you get to that deeper problem. What’s usually going on there? Is it an inability in their business to do it? Is it more mindset related? Because I have seen the same thing. When we’ve coached people, oftentimes, we’ll go through this, we show them all the things to do, and they still aren’t getting it, and sometimes they’ll leave. Not that often, but it’s that frustration. I’ve had that experience in programs that I’ve been part of as well. I’m looking at what’s the common denominator there that makes us not get to the finish line?

Josh Long: Yeah, and that’s the last lever is mindset. And I put it at the end of the book, because 50% plus of my clients just don’t want to deal with it, don’t want to look internally, don’t want to reflect. But I think it’s the most valuable lever of all, I think it supersedes all of them. Because at the end of the day, if you’re not willing to look at your own beliefs, which drive everything, right? Like we all have subconscious beliefs and things that are running our operating system. 

If you’re not willing to look and review those, then you may have a chronic issue that maybe you’re a yeller. Maybe you just, you get to a point and you just start yelling at your staff. And that’s the only way you feel that they’re going to listen to you. And it’s like, well, you’re going to just run the healthy people away because healthy people don’t put up with yellers, only traumatized, dysfunctional people put up with yellers, right? And so you’re just going to end up with this semi-retarded version of an organization where you’re there And your only way to lead is yelling. And the only people that’ll stick around are the ones that were abused by yelling growing up. And you guys have this really twisted relationship, right? And so that’s, that’s really what’s happening at the end of the day is every business grows to the limit of the owner. That’s it. And so unless that owner is willing to look internally and level up and deal with their own stuff, we’re just going to end up at an impasse. 

I had a client, I parted ways with a year ago—they were afraid of hiring. They’d had a couple of bad hires. And so they made this 85 deck slide PowerPoint process of hiring. And I’m really good at recruiting. And I can talk to some an applicant, I can create a great ad, I can look at the review, the applicants, I can get to the top five, interview each of them for five minutes, and I can pick out the best one. All in 25 minutes, right? I’ve been doing it for years. 

Their marketing was working so well, their support team was running into limitations. And I was like, we need more support. And the owner was just so afraid that I was gonna break something and hire somebody bad. And so we ended up recruiting the person. It was a great hire, but the owner kept fighting me the whole time on my process. And it was because he had some kind of trauma around hiring, having a bad hire. And, and it was just indicative of all these other things that we weren’t willing to get on the same page. 

And so I was like, I like you guys, you guys have a great company. But it’s not a fit for me. And I parted ways. That’s a simple example. They just didn’t trust me at the end of the day to deliver a quality candidate, even though I did. And that person’s still there and they’re thrilled with them. And, but the owner even fought and he said, this guy’s overqualified. He’s not going to last. I’m like, I don’t know how to help you. You keep fighting me. Does that resonate?

Rob Marsh: It definitely does. I can think of all kinds of little hang ups like that. You kind of touched on it early on when we started talking, but a lot of copywriters are afraid to go out and pitch for clients because basically it means they’re going to, they want to fill up the day with work, but then it also means, oh, now I’ve got to deliver. Right. And so if you can shoot yourself in the foot on pitching and not do it well, you can sort of limit the downsides of doing the work. That becomes a self-sabotage pattern.

Josh Long: Yep. I see that in every industry, every skill set, whether it’s web designers, graphic designers, copywriters, whatever. It doesn’t matter. Once you start hitting your upper limit of, I’m making enough money, I’m working with enough good clients… This is where I think Dan Kennedy did it so well. Instead of sabotaging yourself subconsciously, and pushing away the ones that you just don’t really want to work with, make the waitlist long and just start raising your pricing. 

But then guess what? Now you’ve got to look at your perceived self worth. How worthy are you of earning what you earn versus what you deserve. I’ve got a great case study of a guy who does mineral analysis for health stuff—hair mineral tests—and he was only charging like three or $400 for this test, a huge analysis, and a game plan for rebalancing your minerals.

And I was like, how’s that going? He says, I just got people that don’t show up to calls. I got people that complain. I told him to triple his pricing. This is one of those classic cases where you’re just attracting the wrong audience because your price is so low. And I had a call with him a month ago, and he was probably doing like 60, 70 grand a year, frustrating clients. I said, well, what’d you do last year? He says, 300 plus. And I’m like, and what were the clients like? He says, I loved everyone. But he had to work through that belief system. So that’s the other part that once you start digging, you realize, mindset is the ultimate bottleneck because yes, I’m self sabotaging as Rob said, but then. Okay. I’ll make a wait list. I’ll only cherry pick. I’ll make clients have to jump through hoops and then I’ll charge more. It’s like, Oh no, I can’t. My dad will think I’m ripping people off if I charge more or whatever the belief comes out. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s all tied to that stuff.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, there’s so many ways we sabotage ourselves in business. Okay, so after marketing, the next lever is management. And I can see applications here with the big C applications with a big team, plus personal management, you know, and with freelancers, oftentimes, the worst of our employees is ourselves.

Josh Long: Well in this case, I would look at client management, because you’ve got people on a team that you’re having to deal with now. And it’s a difficult dynamic, because you don’t have the authority to fire them, push them around, set deadlines, or whatever. But you have all the responsibility for delivery, right? And so you end up in this imbalance, right? You don’t have equal parts authority and responsibility. And so as freelancers, when you end up in that spot, it can feel like purgatory. It’s not quite hell, but it’s definitely you’re stuck. And so the way that I work through that on the management side is whoever hires you starts having conversations about that authority discussion and about the feedback loop, right? 

I had this client years ago, they were doing a big project for Starbucks, and they were manufacturing trailer units that were going to go into Walmart parking lots for a Starbucks. They were just dropping them as a drive-thru Starbucks in a parking lot. And Starbucks loved the idea, and my client had manufactured all sorts of stuff like that before, but Starbucks kept delaying signing the contract. And I told my client, I said, Every week that they delay, you have to push your delivery out. That has to be in the contract. It’s like, no, no, it’s a two, two and a half million dollar project. Starbucks won’t do that. I’m like, you’re just getting pinched. You’re just getting pinched. You’re just going to end up squeezed so bad. And sure enough, they did and they got pinched and it was a mess and they still pulled it off, but they were way more stressed out than they needed to be because when they made the proposal, it was based on a six month timeline. And when they got the contract signed, they had three and a half months and couldn’t move until they got the contract signed because you never know, the company may bail. 

So when you get started with a company, let that hiring person, whether it’s the owner or marketing director or whoever is in charge, if you’re not reporting directly to them or dealing with them on a day-to-day basis, say, hey, what I found is when I work with teams like yours, a lot of times the team views my requests as nice to haves, not deadlines or ultimatums. And so would you be up for letting them know, hey, this person needs responses within 24 hours, because I can’t guarantee any kind of consistent delivery if I’m not able to get feedback or copy reviews or input or graphics or whatever, and just start setting that management expectation. 

This is what I call management by agreements. And with most professionals, this is really, really simple because nobody’s going to disagree with your requests. Nobody’s unreasonable. But by making that request, then if it’s not heated, if they’re not complied with, then you can go back sooner and say, hey, hiring person, you know, I’ve been having this issue. I’m not trying to get them in trouble, but it’s making delays. It’s putting things off. It’s slowing down. And I don’t want to have this come back to bite us. And I know that may not feel like a comfortable thing to go do to have that confrontation. But by having that little discussion early, that makes that confrontation, that resolution so much easier. And I think under management, I talked, I wrote a whole chapter on confrontation, because I realized like, that’s such a huge skill. And I was so bad at it. And my family, we were all so bad or just passive aggressive people pleasers. And Like there was just no modeling of healthy confrontation in my family. So I realized like the most successful people I knew were comfortable and good at confrontation. And so to me, the confrontation isn’t to beat somebody up or to get mad at them or Lord, anything over them. It’s just saying, Hey, there’s a dysfunction in our dynamic and I just want to heal it. I want to make it better. I want to resolve it. And so when you have that conversation upfront and then. are able to go back and say, hey, this wasn’t maintained. How do we make this right? And that’s it. And then people make it right.

Rob Marsh: I think even the word confrontation has that negative connotation to it. So we want to avoid it. And really what we’re trying to do here is just set healthy boundaries, get, like you said, the agreements so that we can move forward.

Josh Long: Yep. So that’s management. And it really is a four letter word for most small business owners. They think it means bureaucracy and or they’ll say micromanagement. And that’s not it at all. It’s just keeping communication priorities and organization together so that we can achieve something worthwhile. 

Then from there, we get into systems. And this is where a lot of people, especially right now with AI, that they over focus. And I would say systems, and I wrote about it in the book, I titled the chapter, delegate, document, then automate, and really, it should be in parentheses, maybe, like, Automation is not guaranteed. Most people do not need automation in most systems. But you need to document it. And I said delegate at first because most entrepreneurs aren’t good at documenting. But if you’re a one-man person, one-man crew, then you’re going to have to document some things. And you may go to Upwork and find somebody that’s really good at documentation that you talk it out with and get them to just document it, create it, and then be done with it. But it really is just getting it out of your head and just getting it down on paper of how you do things. 

The beauty is when you do this, especially with client fulfillment related items, you can then turn that into a little document to show clients, Hey, when you work with us, here’s what our process is going to be like. Here’s how we’re going to have a kickoff call. Here’s what our deliverables are going to be. And that becomes a great sales tool that helps that prospect see, oh, they’ve really got this thought thought out, they’re really professional, I have a lot of certainty, about 60% of the US population has a personality profile, where they crave certainty, they crave structure, they love rules, they love checklists. And so 60% chance that the person you’re dealing with wants to see that document, wants to see that checklist. And so if you create it of how we fulfill people, and then you’ve got it in a way that you can share it with prospects before they’re closing, you’re providing a whole lot of certainty in the process.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I mean, this is one place where I think freelancers very quickly figure out, wait a second, if I don’t figure out a system here, there’s no way I can grow. Even getting six figures becomes a really difficult goal. If you’re making things up every single time you have to do something, you’re starting over and working from scratch. So this is one we talk about a lot. I’m a full believer. I’m terrible at systems myself. But I’m a big believer in having somebody on the team who can do it.

Josh Long: Yeah. And so from systems, then we move into vision and vision really comes down to what do you actually want out of this business, this career, this occupation that you’ve got. And I, I find a lot of business owners start with a vision of one thing, but after 10 or 15 years, they’re way over here, just grinding it out with no concept of, What is this doing to serve my needs? And I think entrepreneurship is the greatest gift to humanity. I think it has created everything that we love and live with and all the abundance that we have in our society. And I think the number one purpose of any business or occupation or career is to serve the lifestyle we want to create. And there’s a lot of other benefits we get from it from fulfillment and working out our gifts. 

At the end of the day, if you’re not getting the lifestyle you want, you’re missing the boat because you’re creating your own reality. You create the rules, you create the rules of engagement, you create the rules of delivery. All of it is made up by you. You may say, Oh, well, this is my industry standard. I’m just following that. It’s like, well, people break it all the time. People create different rules of engagement all the time. And so if, if you’re not actively thinking about the lifestyle that you’re creating, then you’re missing the boat. And for me, as a freelancer, as a consultant, I always said I wanted to have as much time, freedom and flexibility as possible. I want as much autonomy as possible. And that’s just something that I value in my life. And we homeschool our kids. I work from home or around each other all the time. But we love it. And that was important to me. I want to be able to work wherever I want. 

And so since 2011, I’ve been working from home. And we have a lot of flexibility. So we take road trips off peak a lot, because again, we’re homeschooling, so we can take our kids whenever we want. And we were able to move to Hawaii for two years from 2018 to 2020. Because we don’t have to worry about school districts or we could stay in Airbnbs and we could figure out until we had some stable housing. And so that’s something that’s really important to me. I told a buddy of mine, we’d both worked for Chet and he went on to work at a bunch of other companies and he was climbing the ladder and he would call me on his commutes in the morning in SoCal for an hour. And I said to him one day, I said, you know, I realized I’d rather make 50 grand a year and have all the time freedom in the world than make 500 grand a year and have no time. And in 2016, we were having dinner down in Orange County, and he said, you win. I’m like, what are you talking about? He says, I’m making 500 grand a year, and I’m miserable. And I said, well, thankfully, I’m making more than 50 grand a year. And he ended up quitting his job a couple weeks later, because he was commuting from Orange County to Dallas for two weeks a month, and just had no time. That’s miserable. So that’s the vision of like, what is it you actually want?

Rob Marsh: So, and is vision always about like the business owner or does it also go into like the rest of the business? If I am building a team, do I need a vision for what they’re doing as well in addition to, you know, what I’m building for myself?

Josh Long: I think that gets more into the strategy of the business, like early on, what are we building here? Why are we building it? What does the team look like? The vision in the book is really just for the owner, because good owners end up being too self-sacrificing, too altruistic, putting everybody else’s needs before their own, and never really think about, well, what am I actually getting out of this business? 

Rob Marsh: And then we talked a little bit about mindset already, but is there anything you would add to it?

Josh Long: Yeah, I mean, mindset, like I said, is more valuable than all the others. And it’s a journey, right? It’s not something that’s fast. It’s not something that’s a quick fix. But to me, it’s where all the gold in the world lies of removing the limiting beliefs and the little emotional traumas, and you may have big emotional traumas. There may be things driving your operating system that you don’t know are there that are creating a lot of conflict. And so like some for me early on that I got through with coaching was, you Like, I grew up in a Christian church and a household, and I had a distorted view that money was like manna, like the Israelites in the desert, that it would come from the skies, and if they tried storing it up, it would spoil. Somehow, that was embedded in me. Even though logically, I was like, no, we need to save, you need to build wealth, blah, blah, blah. I did financial planning for people with my mortgage brokerage. But I had a belief that money was like manna. 

So guess what? I never had savings. It would always show up the day before I’d need it. I’d have a $3,000 tax bill. Lo and behold, the day before it was due, money would show up. And it’s like, well, gosh, that’s a really stressful way to live. It’s a really dysfunctional belief. And I had to clear that and remove that. And lo and behold, savings starts building all of a sudden. So that’s the kind of stuff for me that has been so fascinating to watch in my own journey get worked out. And the beauty of working through your mindset stuff with your business is that it ripples out to every other part of your life, right? It doesn’t just have an effect on your ability to make money or your ability to lead, but it also makes all of your life more rich and more fulfilling because you’re not, you’re not fighting against yourself internally.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. I want to come back to an idea that I think we talked about a little bit earlier, which is around mentorship and being ready or knowing that you’re ready for that coach, that person that you can connect with. I think a lot of times we don’t realize that we’re ready until well past when we actually needed to look for a mentor. We should have been working with, and this is especially true, I think, with mindset. but probably with all of the things that we’re talking about here. Have you, as you work with so many different businesses, do you have a framework for identifying like, okay, this is the problem that I’m starting to see show up now. I need to start looking for a mentor to help me with this, or where you can look at people and say, oh yeah, you’re definitely ready for this kind of a mentor. How do we know when we should be looking for that stuff?

Josh Long: Yeah, I think like I’m much more open to people finding their own way and not scaring everybody into, you need a mentor yesterday. But the thing that I will say that every client has that makes them a great spot for me is they’ve run into the same issue multiple times, haven’t been able to get past it, and now they’re really ready to get the help to solve it. As entrepreneurs, we have egos, right? We want to prove ourselves to the world. We’re always in that state of trying to show that we’re good enough and that we’re worthy in some capacity. Some of us have it more than others, but what that does is it causes us to hold on to our rightness, our belief that we know where we’re going, we know we’re on the right path. 

If you’re in that state and you’re like, no, I’m going to prove it, I’m right, this is going to be it, then you’re definitely not in a spot to be coached because you’re just going to argue with that coach or you’re going to undermine their advice or you’re going to subconsciously push back against them. If you’re in a spot where you’re like, you know, I thought I knew what I was doing was going to work, but I keep bumping my head into the same wall. Maybe there is a better way. Like that’s the beginning of being ready for a coach. 

And I got a good buddy. He had a software company that was developing in a language called Python and he started it around 2009 and had quick success. And, um, or maybe it was 2007, but he had quick success and he got up to about 1.8 million in about three years. And he thought he was the next Steve jobs. He just, there was no way to tell him otherwise. And I had, I had helped him. We’d become friends, but we just both butted heads. We were both young and dumb. And I left. And then a few years later, we reconciled, and he was still at 1.8 million. And he finally admitted, Oh, yeah, I don’t know what I’m doing. I need help. And so that’s the hard part of early success can give us a lot of false confidence. And early success is almost like a curse for some people, because that means that they’re just not going to be open to input, or they just think they’ve got it figured out. So I don’t know if that answers your question. I think it’s more of the mindset of, are you ready to change? And it’s not at whatever cost. It’s not like you’re going to become a completely different person, but you have to be in that coachable state and not feel like you’re just going to try to argue with somebody that’s coming in to give you guidance.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I agree. So I want to ask this because so many copywriters have dealt with a really rough last year or two where the economy’s been really different. I know you’ve seen this in other businesses too. So many people are struggling to find clients. Obviously, there are lots of different things that can get in the way of that positioning, outreach, all kinds of stuff. But just real broadly, I’d love your advice. If I’m struggling in business to find clients, what are the two or three things that I should be doing to make it more or make it easier for clients to find me or for me to be able to connect with those that I need to connect with?

Josh Long: Yeah, so it shifted. The market has been shifting for a while. 2022 is a real watershed. that when they started raising interest rates in March of 22, but then by the end of 22, around October, when the FTX crisis happened, and then a bunch of layoffs at big tech companies started happening. I mean, Amazon froze budgets. I was dealing with a division of Amazon at that time for a client. Like they just came back and said, budgets are frozen. And so last year, in early 2023, with this one client, they were working with big companies. And I said, you got to change your target audience of who you’re going after. 

Now, this isn’t the full advice, but this shows the shift that I’ve been seeing. And I said, you guys are going after all these tech companies. And like, I said, go after basic companies like Procter and Gamble, or 3M, stable companies. And I ended up procuring a relationship with Nestle with them, like, just giant companies that are stable, not going anywhere. The next day, Silicon Valley Bank went under. Silicon Valley Bank was a prospect of theirs I spoke to in November of 22. So I was like, I had no idea that I was that on point that the market was shifting that hard for them. But what happened through the first half of 2023, in just about all industries was the shockwave went through the market and a lot of prospects just sat and they got skittish and they got hesitant. 

And so the advice I’ve been telling everybody since then is you have to completely change your offers, not that you no longer are a copywriter, just change the packages. Start playing with smaller packages, foot-in-the-door type offers, things that allow you to earn trust and build a relationship because the market is skittish and people are knowing they need to just sit on cash and they need to improve their cash reserves and they need to improve their cash positions. And so that’s a hard thing because in the small business world, the first expense that is cut when an entrepreneur feels tight is marketing. It’s the stupidest thing. It makes no sense. You can’t, you can’t logic them out of this. It’s just a protection mechanism. It’s like, it’s like marketing is their limbs and everything else is their torso. And they just go like this to protect themselves. They don’t want to get hit. They don’t want to get stabbed, whatever. They don’t want to bleed out. 

So then, you have to make smaller and easier, foot-in-the-door offers, I call them, things that are like, hey, you know what? Let me go through your email list and let me see what your email looks like and what your open rates are. Let’s do three emails. I’ll do them for $500 or $1,000. Let’s see if I can increase your open rates. Let’s experiment with that. um and and then you’re they’re like oh wow that worked really well well what else can you do right like that’s the goal of trying to um get that foot in the door and so i would go back to everybody you’ve given a proposal to everybody you’ve worked with over the last two to three years and just go back and start making a new offer of like hey um i know things are tight i know i know things can feel skittish i’d love to come in and really make it easy for you to get a quick result and see if that works. How does that resonate, Rob?

Rob Marsh: It definitely resonates. It also couples really well with what you were saying earlier about making things easier for clients. You know, if you are able to take on, you know, managing that email list so that you’re taking something off, off of their plate, or you’re able to take something and make something else easy for them. Now there’s a reason to keep you around, right? You’re, you’re adding value and helping them find time so that they can, you know, fulfill the vision, all that stuff.

Josh Long: I’ve got a client, she’s got a great company, and she’s been doing Facebook ads and email management. And she just told me the other day, she’s like, and she’s like a million and a half pushing 2 million. And she’s like, I think I’m just going to stop email marketing and just focus on Facebook ads because they’re working so well. And I’m like, no, just go find a copywriter that’s going to manage your email list. Like, but she just was so overwhelmed and hadn’t thought about it. And she’s just coming out of like stages of overwhelm. Um, and she told me the other day, she’s like, yep, I found a copywriter. It’s been going great. Thanks. That was the right advice. So you guys as copywriters can look for those situations of where’s the, where’s the heavy lifting that it’s getting neglected or somebody is resenting it, that I can come in and just take that over and maybe expands your scope a little bit beyond what you’re used to. Um, but it adds a ton of value and then you’re embedded and you’re not, you’re not going to go anywhere. You’ve got more stable client relationships.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, 100%. Okay, Josh, I really appreciate the hour you spent chatting. You know I’m a fan of the book, but if anybody is new to you, your world, the Breakthrough Bottleneck world, where should they go to find out more, get their hands on the book?

Josh Long: Yeah. So the book’s available everywhere. You can get it on Kindle, Amazon, audible. I did the audible for it a few years ago. Some guys, I was at a conference speaking and they’re like, we only listen to audiobooks cause they’re all out in the field. They’ve got home service businesses. I was like, Oh, you’re the first guys that are actually successful business owners that tell me they only listen to books. So I got it done. 

But bottleneck breakthrough.com is my site. I’ve got great resources there. I’ve got a new guide I just put together on, um, how to double your close rate and using some cool tools that I like that really help filter and make your prospecting and your conversations with prospects a lot easier. 

So you can get that at bottleneckbreakthrough.com. And I’m on Facebook and LinkedIn and Twitter. 

I need to build out my Twitter more. Um, I’m enjoying that more and more, over the last year as it’s been less censored. But yeah, those are the great places to find me. Feel free to connect with me on any of those platforms and, um, feel free to reach out if you need some, some kind of guidance or some feedback on the book that you need more clarity on. 

I think it was Juliet. I can’t remember. Is it Peavy? Is that her last name? Yeah. So she was the one that kind of gave it away that you guys were giving my book away on LinkedIn. So she had tagged me and we’ve had a number of great conversations on LinkedIn. So yeah, I’m stoked, Rob, that the book’s been valuable for you guys.

Rob Marsh: It’s funny, this is not the first book that we’ve given away, but it’s easily the one that’s talked about the most. And there’s a couple that really resonate, but this one I think has been number one. I mean, again, when I found it, I went through it, I’m like, every chapter, I’m like, oh, there’s yet another thing that I can be working on and improving. And even as I was prepping just to chat this morning, looking at it, I’m like, ah, I need to go through this again.

Josh Long: Thanks. That was my goal. I always said most books aren’t worth reading, fewer worth finishing. And the ones that are worth finishing, like I want them to get to manual level status, like where you pull them out every year or two. And that was the goal when I wrote the book was that it would be useful for small business owners to just go back to over and over and get something new from it and be implementable forever.

Rob Marsh: I think it’s there. Definitely belongs in every copywriter, every freelancer, contract worker. If you’re working on your own, it’s definitely a great resource to have. So thanks. Thanks, Josh, for your time.

Josh Long: Thanks, man. This is so fun.

Rob Marsh: That’s the end of my interview with Josh Long. Before I go any farther, as a business owner, you really should have his book, Bottleneck Breakthrough, on your shelf. You’re going to turn to it again and again as you hit different bottlenecks and challenges in your business. Just go ahead and get that now. We’ll link to it in the show notes, but of course you can find it wherever books are sold. I want to echo an idea or two that Josh shared as we talked. 

Right there at the end, as we wrapped, Josh was talking about what he’s seen take place over the last couple of years in the economy and with business spending and marketing spending. I think he hits the bullseye with his analysis. Companies and people are gun shy when it comes to spending and businesses are especially hesitant to spend on marketing. And that trickles down to copywriters and to content and the kind of work that we do. So coming up with new ways to make your offers easier to try, easier to say yes to, that’s exactly the right strategy. If you struggle to find clients, you’re going to want to give this tactic a try. Make your offer smaller, make the value more obvious, give your clients a better experience, and then go back to them for more and more. 

Near the beginning of the interview, Josh mentioned the two kinds of entrepreneurs, those that jump right in and figure things out and those who have a mentor for a while and grow their skills and connections with the help of others before jumping in to start their business. I agree that both paths are viable. But given all we’ve said today about mentors, how they help, even if you’re in the jump in and figure it out path, a mentor can still help make things easier. 

You may need to stumble or hit a bottleneck before you’re ready to ask for help, but you don’t have to wait for that. 

That’s why we created the Copywriter Underground and the other programs that we offer. We’re here to help with mentorship when you need it. But like Josh said, we’re not trying to force anyone in. If you’re not ready, it’s not going to do you much good anyway. But if you are ready, if you are one of those people who doesn’t want to go it alone or would like that expert help, check out thecopyrighterclub.com/TCU. 

That’s definitely for you. I want to thank Josh again for joining us to chat about his business and about his book. I highly recommend you follow him wherever you find yourself online, whether that’s on LinkedIn or Twitter. If you want to look him up, bottleneckbreakthrough.com. Josh is just someone who’s worth following and seeing how he thinks about business and the challenges we face.

Success in business isn’t easy. But finding success requires you to do things you may not love—like creating relationships with potential customers daily, working on your business (not your client’s) every day, or even going all in on a daily writing habit. In the 383rd episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira and Rob spoke with copyhackers Joanna Wiebe who says these (and several other daily activities) are her non-negotiables. They happen every day—no matter what. If creating your own daily non-negotiable is all you get out of this episode, it will be well worth your time, but there is so much more. So check it out…

Click the play button below, or scroll down for a full transcript.

Stuff you should check out:

The Copywriter Club Facebook Group The Copywriter Underground

Full Transcript:

Rob Marsh: It’s been more than seven years since we last chatted with today’s guest on the podcast. In the meantime, she just keeps growing her business. This time around we asked her about the ins and outs of working with family members, building authority, and doing what she calls the daily non-negotiables.

Hi, I’m Rob Marsh, one of the founders of The Copywriter Club. And on today’s episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast, Kira Hug, and I interviewed copywriter and founder of CopyHackers Joanna Wiebe.

Many of you know that Kira and I met in one of Jo’s programs. So we owe a lot to her. But just as importantly, Joanna is one of those online personalities who is just plain generous with her help and advice. And that’s likely a big part of why she’s been so successful.

As usual, we think you’re going to want to stick around for this one.

But first, this episode of The Copywriter Club Podcast is brought to you by The Copywriter Underground. I’ve told you about the benefits you get as a member. We’ve been working hard on how to make The Underground even more useful and helpful to the copywriters and content writers who are members… if you listened to last week’s episode with Csaba Borzasi, you heard him mention the scorecard he uses to close 100% of his prospects on sales calls. We didn’t have a lot of time to discuss what the scorecard includes or how he uses it, but Csaba agreed to share all of that with the members of The Copywriter Underground. That presentation happens later this week and will be available in the Underground for a limited time. If you’d like to learn how to close 100% of your prospects on sales calls—by the way, that’s not a guarantee, but you will see how Csaba does it—you need to be IN the copywriter underground, which you can do by visiting thecopywriterclub.com/tcu. And Csaba’s presentation isn’t the only upcoming exclusive we’ll be adding in the underground. We’ll have more to tell you about in the coming weeks.  thecopywriterclub.com/tcu.

Now to our interview with Jo…

Kira Hug: All right, I’m gonna kick this off. You know, we’re kicking off 2024, feeling mostly good so far, right? But when we look back at 2023, it’s hard to not avoid the mammoth changes that took place in the writing space and the impact on the writers that we all know, and how difficult it was for many writers. Not all writers, some writers had great years, but for many, they struggled. And so, I would love to hear from you and your perspective on just like what are these shifts that you saw and what is working today that we should pay attention to in the writers that are more successful?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah.

Rob Marsh: That’ll only take an hour to answer.

Kira Hug: I can’t ask that in the last 10 minutes.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, we’ll just let you go for an hour. We’ll end the episode and we’ll just have you come back another time for everybody else’s questions.

Kira Hug: We have you for the next four hours, right?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I want to hear what y’all have to say about this too. I can say my take. I know 2023 started off super scary for everybody, right? I mean, 2022, November, December was when people started flipping because of chat GPT. What was so funny, wasn’t it funny? I was watching, I think it was John Oliver, his HBO show he does once a Sunday, whatever it’s called. And they were talking about AI. And they were cutting to clips of this expert on AI who was saying what was going to change. And he’s like, so this will impact copywriters and lawyers. And the second he said it, I was like, OK, wait. Suddenly, people know what copywriting is? 

For all of these years, no one’s had a clue what we do. And suddenly, it’s all like, everybody knows what we do. And this is going to be replaced. So I was annoyed by that. But I think that kind of set the tone, like hearing those sorts of things set the tone for a lot of people. And I get it. It was like, It was a get on board, you know, befriend the bear before it eats you and then be a slave to the bear, which is scary and no one wants to do that. Writers already feel so insecure. Everybody already thought they could do our job. So to have this extra layer of like, oh, no, really, you don’t have a job anymore. I know it turned off a lot of people who were already kind of spazzing because COVID had hurt everybody so badly, right? Like you’re in mental recovery from COVID, then this news that your job is being taken away. And then everybody who’s been working for software companies, sees all of those layoffs.

So yeah, super tough year. And I think that it’s one of those years for me where I’m like, yeah, some people didn’t make it through. And God bless them and everybody who did make it through God bless us all. Because it’s tough. It’s obviously a tough go like that, simplifying it dramatically. The people who stayed are what I’m seeing at least are the people who’ve stayed and been successful about it. We’re never doing the work that AI does. Anyway, they like, and by that, I don’t I mean, I think what we’ve seen is AI can take your research and help you analyze it. So that’s good using it as an assistant, which we’ve all heard, but like, so few people actually do, you know, use chat GPT as their or whatever tool, you can say Jasper, but everybody just uses chat GPT. So yeah, it’s those who are able to, use it to make their work better and not be scared or intimidated by it. But that was really hard to come by, right? Like even saying that now, I know people are going to hear that and go like, sure. Like, oh, brother, it’s so easy for you to say, just use it. But what if I’m a junior copywriter? Like a junior copywriter who doesn’t know how to do what even chat GPT can do. 

So those are the ones who, it’s hard to admit it, but if you were junior and you didn’t take this job very seriously, if you conflate content and copy, you probably had a really hard year and were thinking about leaving or you left. And so the ones that fit the question are like, what’s working for those who stuck it out and are surviving now and are seeing their businesses grow. Like the people I’m seeing businesses, freelancing services, taking off in ways that we didn’t before and so like it’s just to me it’s like it’s the staying power one take your craft seriously so seriously that it’s a no-brainer that I should hire you even if you use AI even if my company uses AI anybody who uses AI knows like wait is this good? Am I allowed to use this? Is this accurate? Is this even right? So if you took your job seriously and you took AI, seriously, not as a threat, but as an opportunity, and you stayed the course, those seem to be the people who are succeeding. 

I know it feels like a place of privilege to say that, right? Like, how do you stay the course if you’re not making money? How do you take the job seriously if you’re still really new at learning it, and juniors aren’t getting the same level of employment that more strategic, senior, conversion focused, or even just brand and creative and like big picture thinking focused copywriters are able to make. But I would say those things. Take the job seriously. Take AI seriously. Stick around. That’s what I saw working.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, I think that’s all smart. And I’m not disagreeing with you at all, but to me, AI feels like it was a smaller threat than the economy overall, especially in the SaaS and tech space where there were so many layoffs. There were so many changes in marketing budgets. And while, of course, AI has had an impact just like you described, I think that AI is getting blamed for a lot of the other stuff that’s happening in marketing. 

The other thing, and we haven’t necessarily talked about this, but something that’s happened over the last year, I’m sure you’ve seen it—everybody I know has seen it—our inboxes are flooded with the offers, I can find you 30 different potential calls… clients… whatever. I’ve helped somebody add $40,000 a month to their job. And because that outreach thing has happened (and a big part of that is AI too) I think the way that we have traditionally done outreach and found clients and direct messaged, that kind of stuff has slowed way down as impactful as well. And so it feels like, it’s AI’s fault, but a lot of it’s just the economy and the way people are marketing, too. I don’t know. We could have an argument about this.

Kira Hug: Let’s just blame AI. Let’s just blame it. Use AI as a punching bag. It’s more fun.

Joanna Wiebe: I like having a villain. A villain is good and identifiable. Yes. So I hear you. So for me, the economy, yes, it’s been hurting a lot of people. Then there’s the other side of like, you know, what’s really going on with layoffs? Is it just like a really good chance to scale back on, you know, there’s an NPR show about this, people talk about this, the possibility that the layoffs are like, well, I have a bloated team, and it’s hard for me to get rid of them. But if the economy is bad, and if Salesforce just laid off 10% of their staff, then I can lay off 10% of mine too. And, and it’s not like, it’s not that it’s not real, because the economy is, it’s hard, right? You’re, there’s not enough money out there for the things that we used to have a lot of money for. 

What I have seen as a trigger for people reaching out to me for training or for copy chiefing for their team, like come in on retainer or, hey, I need a project done. The trigger is often when a person joins the company as VP of marketing or CMO. So it’s a new hire at an organization where they’re up at a new tier for their role. They look around their team and go, nobody has any copywriting expertise here. So they have this new team, new goals, their own pressure to perform in a bad economy. And they’re reaching out to say, hey, how do you get, how can you help me with my team? Or can you come write this thing for me? 

So for me, that trigger hasn’t gone away. People are still going into new roles. We’re still getting new VPs marketing. new product marketing leads, people who have moved up through the ranks, are still reaching out. So I think if your job has been, hey, I’m going to do cold outreach to get clients or I’m going to reach out on LinkedIn or whatever that is, I mean, I’ve never been a fan of that. I’ve always been like, no, people should reach out to you. So to get them to reach out to you, you are an authority. 

So a VP of marketing has to know your name in some way. And people get really freaked out about that. How do I become an authority, though? And it’s like, what are you doing right now? What are you doing at this exact moment right now? They’re complaining. Well, how about instead of that, you outline the book? Because you can self-publish a book today. April Dunford self-published, obviously awesome, and has built a multimillion dollar consulting business off this. It doesn’t have to be as hard as you think. And it might be, this is going to be annoying to a lot of people to hear, but it might be kind of the best time ever to put your authority on the page, to use AI to help you generate an outline for this book you’re going to write. write the book, self-publish it, become an authority in this space, instead of wondering, where did all the clients go? Because there are new VPs of marketing who do look around and have teams that need help. And they’re like, we need our onboarding emails done right now. We needed them yesterday. 

We’ve had 15-year-old onboarding emails going out. These are real things that are constantly happening. But they’re not going to reach out to you if they don’t know who you are. And they’re not going to answer your cold outreach thing. Because again, like you said, Rob, they’re already flooded with crappy stuff in their inbox. So the answer sadly feels like it’s the same answer as ever. Make people come to you by being an authority, an unreplaceable, irreplaceable authority on X thing in copywriting. You know? Like, Summer had her best year ever last year, trying nothing. She did nothing. But Summer’s the email person now, and so people line up to work with her. Is that too simplified? I always feel like I’m oversimplifying, but it really does always come down to just write a book, just write a stinking book already.

Kira Hug: I think writing a book has been on my list for multiple years, and I’ve shared it on this podcast, and I fail every year. And I’m like, this is the year. But for some people who are like, cool, I’m going to write that book. But in the meantime, I need clients today. What could I do to build my authority this month that I can ship this month that’s working today that maybe wasn’t working a year ago?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, do a hard thing. So I have in my calendar every morning from 9 to 10, I have a block that says do hard things you hate doing and some days I delete that block but other days I do the hard thing I hate doing. I’m going to tell you I was in a session, I’m in this big group coaching thing with Dan Martell. He was on a call. This is a really cool moment. We were having this group call, people ask questions, but in order to ask a question, you have to, and I’ve applied this in our Copy School Professional. So anybody who’s in copy school pro and listening, they’re like, you stole that from Dan. Yes. I stole this from Dan. In order to ask a question, you have to say, yes, I’ve been doing my five daily non-negotiables. Then you have to share the money. When five daily non-negotiables include opens—you have to reach out to five people a day to open a conversation that you can then close as a sale. 

So people put up their hands and ask a question, say, yes, I’m doing the five daily non-negotiables. And then their question is, where do I get clients? And Dan says, I thought you were doing your five daily non-negotiables. People like, yeah, well, kind of. And he was getting angry on the call. He was getting visibly annoyed by everybody. And then one person, God bless her, put up her hand and had the same question. I’m struggling to get clients. Something like she was an accountant for construction companies or something like that. And Dan’s like, what did you do today? Who did you call today? And she’s like, what do you mean, who did I call? 

He’s mad. He’s swearing. Everybody is so feeling so awkward for her. I’m like, she’s going to cry. She’s probably going to cry. She’s being sworn at with love in front of 300 people. And so Dan says, okay, give me the name of the person you want to reach out to, what company they’re at, and where they are. And she’s stammering. And then she says a name and the company they’re at, and they’re in Texas or something. Dan Googles it, picks up his phone, calls this person in front of everybody. He is going to make a cold call to this person in front of us, and we’re all like, What? Like, chat’s going wild. This is crazy that Dan is doing this very hard thing. He’s going to cold call for a company that’s not even his just to show that this is a hard thing that you have to do. And if you actually want to get ahead, you have to do these very hard things. Now, It went to voicemail. We were all very upset about this.

Kira Hug: Because nobody answers their phone.

Joanna Wiebe: And Dan was like, hire an assistant so that you don’t miss a potential sales call, dude from Texas. But it was at that moment, I had brand new respect for Dan. And two, a hard reality hit that we never do the hard things. We’re not going around doing hard things we’re doing. one somewhat hard thing every so often. But this is like, pick up the phone and call somebody. What if you called the CMO of Bitly? You call the CMO of Bitly, somehow find this person’s phone number. You call them and say, I think you need new emails. I want to do it for you. Do a proper sales call, though, like pitch. 

Nobody else is calling. Like you’ll be the one person who’s picking up the phone and calling. You could actually land something because most people want a hustler. Most people want someone who’s going to do hard work. Then I will pay you money to do hard work. Companies still have budget to spend on us. They’re still, they have things they’re trying to get done. No one in-house, like anybody who’s a copywriter and has worked with people who are in-house, Love y’all, but there is some lacking skill out there in-house. There are full marketing teams who are being forced to write their own copy, who don’t know what they’re doing, who Google it to try to get an answer. They would love you to come in and help. Why don’t you pick up the phone? If it’s not working, try that. And if your answer is some excuse, You have to realize that it’s on you now. The results are on you. We can tell you what to do. You can know that you have to do it, but you actually have to do it. It’s hard.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. This is a favorite theme of mine. When I email about this particular thing, you’ve got to do the hard work, I get more responses back from people who say, thanks for the kick in the butt. Thank you. I needed to hear that. I’m not sure that it results in people doing the hard things, but they need to get real into it. And in a world where everybody’s saying, hey, it’s easy to add $10,000 to your monthly billings every month or whatever, it’s actually not true. Nothing that brings in money is easy. Literally nothing bringing in money is easy. But being told that you got to do it, is. So anyway, my question is, Jo, what are the five hard things you’re doing every day?

Kira Hug: Yes, I was gonna ask that.

Joanna Wiebe: Yes, I have my five daily non-negotiables and they are, for me, cause I did a dump of 25 things that I’ve been putting off doing, just as fast as I could. And then copy school professionals, students did the same thing too, to find their five daily non-negotiables. And then I categorize them in what turned out to be groups. 

Dan’s non-negotiables include, you have to sweat for an hour every day. That didn’t come up as something that I need to work on because I have my own practice where I do yoga and I do like activities so I didn’t find that that was a thing that was lacking for me. The things that came up for me were around evergreen funnels that I’ve been putting off doing or optimizing. My team, do they know that they’re beloved and respected? Are they hearing good things from me and then getting more out there for content? So my five daily non-negotiables are put in my calendar to review at the end of every day if I haven’t already done them because it is a practice, it’s a habit. 

Number one, comment on my daily funnel performance in Slack. So how is the freelancing school funnel doing? How is copy school doing? And how is copy school pro doing? I suck at this one, but because I feel like I’m just like throwing stuff at my team, so I have to get better at how to do that. But again, telling my team what that performance is and having a comment about it. Number two, add three short videos to our social Dropbox. That’s where my team, Nicole and Mike, then take those videos and do stuff with them. Number three, connect personally with a team member or contractor. just some quick text or outreach or something that’s just like connecting us. Number four, DM 10 followers on Instagram. I also suck at that one, but you know, I get three or five out. And number five is to add 100 words to my book project, which I am actually good at. Those are my five. Y’all need five. What would be your five?

Kira Hug: I do like a big one—hard thing—every week. That’s my goal. I respect the fact that you’re like busting out five every day. For me, it’s like, what is the big one this week? The thing that I put off for months or years and doing that. So it is something I’ve given a lot more thought recently. Like, what is that uncomfortable, deeply uncomfortable thing? Calling people, I don’t know. As a millennial, we don’t call people. So this is deeply uncomfortable. Gen X, Rob, I know you’re more comfortable with phone calls. My husband is more comfortable with phone calls. He’s like, I don’t get why you can’t just call people. So that’s something I need to work on.

Rob Marsh: If I had a dollar for every time I said that to one of my kids, I would not have to work ever again in my life. They won’t even call me. It’s ridiculous. I’ve never thought through this process, applying it to the business. Although I’m going to once we hang up, I’m going to start making a list. But I do have several hard things or non-negotiables I do. Exercise is a big one. I do it between an hour and an hour and a half a day. I do take off a day every week for rest or whatever. Reading. I’ve got time carved out—it’s basically that 75 hard thing where you read at least 10 pages a day in a book that is not fiction. It’s not a story. It’s something to either build my skills, build my knowledge, something like that. So that’s another piece. I have a spiritual practice that happens every day as well. So there’s that kind of stuff. But thinking about evergreen funnels, thinking about programs that need to be updated, or fixed. I need a list for that. These are the top 10 hard things that are next, where I just, every day I have to do one. I think that would, that would help for sure.

Kira Hug: Yeah, the video content to like, that’s, I mean, to me is such a pain to like, articulate those ideas into place, record it. And so I love that you have how many at one a day, three a day. Geez.

Joanna Wiebe: All right, Dan, I’m just gonna talk a lot about Dan Martell today, because he’s killing it. For real, though, he has one person who just follows him around with the camera.

Kira Hug: Oh, like Gary Vee.

Joanna Wiebe: Is that what Gary Vee does? It’s banal. Yes.

Rob Marsh: Because otherwise, how do you produce that much content? You can’t.

Joanna Wiebe: Every single thing he says becomes content. Everything. Oh my gosh. Wacko, right? Yeah. And these are those roles that don’t cost that much. You don’t need a professional videographer. They need to hold their iPhone up in front of you. And maybe you have one of the little mics that you put on your lapel. That’s it. You can get your nephew to follow you around. Whatever, right?

Kira Hug: One of your kids could follow you around.

Rob Marsh: Yeah, the last thing they want to do is listen to me more. That doesn’t work. When your kids get older, you’ll understand, Kyra. Your kids still like you. That’s the last thing 20-somethings want to do is hear from their dad.

Kira Hug: Okay, so I want to go back to It sounds like I’m being such a downer and I’m not trying to but I’m just trying to keep it real. And so I’m curious about a struggle you had over the last six months. Like as we’re all struggling with many different things What was something specific that you were working through and how did you work through it if you worked?

Joanna Wiebe: Oh yeah. Oh gosh. Many. So, lots of struggles. So one thing was about two years ago, I had a team member quit via a lawyer. So I had to deal with this claim that lawyers then dragged out and it was really getting to me. Like it was. just bad feelings all the time. Like, you know, when you’re getting ready in the morning or those moments when you have time alone and when you’re alone, your brain goes to, it would, sometimes it goes to productive things. Um, it wouldn’t, it would only go to this person and this fricking, what if this turns into like a proper fricking lawsuit? 

Then I have to go to court and I’m gathering evidence and stuff. I’m like, this is bull. I don’t want this. And so I was so stressed about it. I actually had, at one point I had a FedEx delivery come to my door. And I had so much anxiety over having this person quit by a lawyer that I thought somebody else was quitting via a lawyer as well. And I was like being served. And so it but it wasn’t it was just like it was something I think it was my banker sent me something by FedEx. And I immediately booked a therapy session after that. I was like, hmm, I have issues. Something’s happened. And so, yeah, my therapist was like, it’s probably a form of PTSD. Don’t worry. A lot of people get PTSD for lots of things. 

We had to work through that for a year before I finally said to this one lawyer I was working with, like, can we just try settling with this person? Like, it’s a thing that we haven’t tried. And I would like this to go away. Like, at this point, I would pay anything for this to just go away. Because when I should be thinking about business and opportunities, I’m thinking about this. And so then we did. And like, it was like, between us, even if this person’s listening, it was such a small amount of money for all of the pain that I had been through. So I was like, now I’m mad at lawyers, you ass, putting me through this when it could have just been solved with here. Yeah. So the resolution was really quite simple, but the, the hassle of it, the mental load of that, I know it’s not, if you don’t have a team, it’s not relatable, but think about these surprises. 

It could be like a tax bill that comes out of nowhere where you’re like, where are we going to get that money from? Um, or whatever it is. But it was like this, and it just weighed on me. And meanwhile, my team is like, get me a fun video. I don’t have a fun video in me. I’m not built for this right now, but you have to keep putting on a face and continuing to show up for work, doing things you can’t just hide under your bed and wish life would be easy. You have to keep going and doing the thing. And so that was, that was a big, that was a big problem. Thank God the business was going well and I didn’t have to worry about that sort of thing. But then there’s the additional burden of, you know, like we have people in freelancing school and you’re thinking like, Gosh, it’s hard for everybody out there now. And I realize I’m not showing up as well as I could because I’m stressing. So I’m not putting things out there that could help students and non-students actually get ahead of this really difficult time in a copywriter’s life. So it was crappy. That was what I went through. Yeah.

Rob Marsh: I’m glad you shared that. I think this, I mean, obviously it’s maybe not as big as having an attorney reach out, but stuff like this happens for all of us, like even just plain old burnout. You know, if you are tired and exhausted from doing the work for so long and struggling to try to make it, it does get really hard to show up. A copywriter reached out to me last week. Her apartment had been broken into. And, you know, like that kind of a thing, just it threw her off of her game. I was honored that she reached out and just like, you know, help, you know, help me think through this. You know, what should I do? She would even ask for my advice on that. It was awesome. But this stuff happens to us. It helps, I think, if we have a game plan. It’s like, okay, what if everything goes wrong? Like, what would I do? But it’s hard to predict so much of this stuff. And having to show up and be you know, be Joanna, be Rob or Kira or whatever for your clients for anybody else who’s trusting you to do stuff. It’s freaking hard.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, it is. And that’s where I think it breaks a lot of people because it’s so hard. And you’re like, well, I just actually do like for me to get through this, I need to stay in bed for a while or I need to go get away and clear my head in the mountains and things that like And that also requires money. So there’s a level of privilege required in order to take care of yourself when that’s what you need most. So it’s, yeah, it’s no joke, the things that people are going through and how difficult it really, really is to get through them. Yeah, this is a very depressing topic, Kira. Thank you for bringing that up.

Kira Hug: I’m really good at that. It’s a gift. We’ll shift to something lighter. As things have shifted in our space, the copywriting space, how do you spot, identify opportunities within your business to direct your team, saying this is worth my time, this is worth the team’s time to shift the business and focus here? How do you think about that and approach it?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, that’s a great question. When I think about the shifts that my team has made, two big ones are way more in social media. Uh, so we’ve shifted away from writing long content outside of our like AI prompts section on our site. That’s our only like long content that we write now. Um, and now it’s more social media. So I have one person who’s in charge of Instagram, one person who’s in charge of YouTube. And then, um, shoot there was something else that I had and oh yeah and now many chat as a new like sort of direct selling opportunity uh with dms and sms and whatsapp and all that stuff but that’s really brand new but when I think about like where those shifts came from uh I was away on a retreat um So it’s like the people you surround yourself with are often the people who will give you what you need for what’s next. And sometimes without even meaning to. 

So I was away on a retreat with a few of my friends in this thing called Shine Crew, which is like women building women up, lifting each other up instead of pushing each other down, which is how most are conditioned, sadly. So this lifting each other up thing, we went away for this retreat. And I was there. I was talking with Gia from Forget the Funnel. She was on this retreat. Um, and she was like, Joe, something like Joe, you have no social game. And I was like, what? I didn’t know I had to. And she’s like, you need to be on social. And I was like, Oh, okay. And she said it was such a passing thing. Like we were just on a retreat again together in January. And I was like, so I took your. advice, your little snide comment, seriously. And now I’ve got these people on social media. And she was like, what did I say? 

She had no recollection that she’d even told me to do this. But the point is, it was good advice. I was like, you’re actually right. We’ve put so much into building our email list and doing stuff that’s like that sort of direct marketing. But when you combine what’s going on like social and all of the tools now to turn social into more of a direct channel as well, which is kind of interesting. So one part it’s being told by people to get your butt in gear, get on those spaces where everybody else is. But then the other one was another Dan Martell. Buy the book, evidently. Buy back your time if you’re listening to this. Go do that. But Dan uses ManyChat for selling people into his coaching program. So if you follow him on Instagram and he opens a conversation with you, and then it turns into, I think, an automation through ManyChat. And then, and you can see this just by following Dan and then see what happens. And then it turns into, it switches over to a closer. So, and this is all set up in Manychat, you have to manually open, like you have to follow some, like when someone follows you on Instagram, you then have to DM them manually to get them started. And once they reply, then Manychat can take over for a bit, which is cool. So those are like the shifts that I’m making, but if I wasn’t in Shine Crew, I wouldn’t really be thinking about this. my social presence being non-existent. 

And if I wasn’t in Dan’s training, I wouldn’t know anything about ManyChat either. So to me, it comes back to, are you in a mastermind? Are you in a group where other people are sharing great ideas? And it’s really sad because the number of people who go into programs like your programs and like freelancing school, they tend to leave when things get hard and that’s the moment you should be staying like that’s when you need us most when things are easy it’s really nice to add fuel to the fire but Freelancers, consultants, people who are trying to grow their online business. There’s so much to do. There’s so much out there. You could do so many things wrong or just avoid things. You’ve got to surround yourself with people that are like trying to up level and like new levels, new devils, right? So as you get to that new level, you have to then understand how to deal with the new devil there. But if you’re not around people, you don’t know that. And so you just kind of sit there. point answer, long answer to your question, Kara, is those are the things that we’re working on that are different. And they came about because people basically said, do it this way. And so now we are.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Yeah, we’re big believers in the whole mastermind thing. I know you are. You come home from a mastermind, and you’ve got so many ideas, it’s almost hard to execute on all of the stuff, which that’s maybe the downside of the mastermind is that there’s so many good ideas. I have a very different question for you, Joanna. So we talked to you last on the podcast almost seven years ago. It doesn’t feel like it was seven years because you’ve spoken at our events. We’ve had you at other places, but literally the last time you were on the podcast was episode 14, and that was recorded over seven years ago. So since then, I mean, obviously you were doing this for a while before then. You’ve been doing this ever since. What are you bored of talking about? The question you never want to be asked again, or the thing that you never want to have to say again, what is that?

Joanna Wiebe: How do I do research if I don’t have customers? How do I find new clients if I don’t have results?

Rob Marsh: Okay, and what are the answers?

Kira Hug: That’s how we’ll wrap this conversation.

Joanna Wiebe: Do you actually want to know the answers to them?

Rob Marsh: No, I don’t. I’m not going to make you talk about it. You’ve talked about them so many times. There are no easy answers. 

Kira Hug: Yes. Okay. So in your company today, when you look at your website, it looks like you have a team. It looks like a growing team. I noticed some other family members. Yes. So I guess there’s a couple of questions here. What does your team look like today? What is the role you’re playing? And then I’m going to ask about working with family.

Rob Marsh: So I’m going to like, monopolize the questions for me. I’m just going to monopolize. I’ll just be quiet while Kira finishes her question.

Kira Hug: Rob, just let me finish this. I got it.

Joanna Wiebe: Okay. My team today is… we made a switch to a lot of contractors. So we had people, because we were doing so many launches, we had people on full time, but then between launches, I needed a lot of downtime between them. So it was just like twiddle your thumbs a little bit. So we moved to contractors. So some of the team members that we had. I just had a talk with them, like, are you down to move into a contract role? It doesn’t make sense for you to be here full time. And they said, yes. So we moved from having an in-house email marketer to a contractor now that we work with. And then, and that’s really good for his life because he’s got a baby and all sorts of things. And his wife is very busy with her job, her business. So we moved that, we moved our media buyer to a contract as well, which is fantastic. So yeah, a lot of those, there’s others that will come up. 

We had Jess Noel working on publishing for a little over a year on contract. She was great. Ghostwriters, of course, are on contract too. All of the people who are filling our AI prompts section are just freelancers. who we work with on an ongoing basis. So a lot of contractors involved. The core team is, as you said, I have two family members in there, as well as three other full-timers. So we’re a team of six full-time right now. We’re having an onsite, because we’re always off site but we have an Edmonton office so we’re having an onsite meeting on next Monday and Tuesday, where we’ll be talking about some roles that we might need to open one of those roles is likely. one or two people in charge of team sales, because we’re seeing team sales really kind of escalate. There’s a lot more demand there than there was even two years ago. So that’s something that we’ll have to explore. But I’ll be working with my team to figure out if that’s the thing worth exploring. So the team that we have, um, my sister, so we think of our funnel as like a rectangle that’s horizontal. So it’s not a funnel at all. Because that’s upside down like that. 

We’re like, okay, if there’s a customer journey here, let’s make it a nice big rectangle. Everybody comes in and goes out and stays up on the other side. Um, so the front, before you become a customer, Paul manages that Paul’s my brother. Um, and he’s been working for me for four or five years for a long, long time. So he manages the front and that includes, we’ve got Lindsay, she does support and she also is taking over our mini chat because support takes like two hours a day, but we need somebody always available. So that’s like someone who makes sense to have on full time for us at least. So she’s taken over Manychat learning to really own that. And then Nicole and Mike, Mike runs YouTube. He’s responsible for growing our channel from I think 10,000 people right now to 100,000 by the end of the year. Good luck, Mike. Nicole is in charge of Instagram. She is in charge of moving it from 15,000 followers, I think, to 150,000 by end of year. Also, best of luck to Nicole. 

So with that, then we have them in masterminds as well to move them more quickly along in their skill acquisition and implementation and being more strategic about everything. So those are the three people that are working with Paul on the front. before you become a customer. Sarah fully owns after you become a customer what goes on there. And that’s where we have freelancing school. She oversees our four coaches that we have in Freelancing School and in Copy School Professional. She oversees our four coaches there as well. And then I am across the entire journey for now. I don’t see that being the thing going forward, but we used to have a team of 12. And I was run off my feet and doing nothing. I was constantly reacting to people and what they needed and rarely getting ahead of it. So it felt really good to take a bunch of those roles down to contractors. We moved a few of those people over to an agency, which has since become its very own thing. That’s Rashi and Carolyn. Um, yeah, and that’s really where we’re at. So taking it back to a good place, but have you read E-Myth Revisited? Yeah.

Rob Marsh: So we, everybody who wants to run a team or anything bigger than themselves ought to read HcCRRFfeSNeQRIsHlx0BWl8vo5g0vapgELykeUsj0.tQOP9nqk4Y1XcY3AQCdF0qzSN-hVhJsI36Jd8YoSVOo&qid=1708536178&sr=8-1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=brandstory00-20&linkCode=ur2&linkId=abaf1fe49b92f5fbb1bf390a80ad46c8&camp=1789&creative=9325">E-Myth Revisited.

Joanna Wiebe: Totally need to read it. Um, for me, I recognized in reading it that we had, because I was going through that shitty stuff with my ex team member who had a claim against me, against us. I was going through this and that kind of scared me on people. So that’s one of the reasons I like moved to contract. And it also made me kind of shrink into myself a little bit, which he points out in the book is like, it’s a common thing that happens. Now we got to get you back out of that. So that’s the stage that I’m in right now is trusting people again. And then moving out to a place where I can buy back my time, as Dan would say, and be able to bring on the right roles so that I don’t have to do everything. And I don’t do everything, but there are some things that I’m doing that I definitely shouldn’t be doing. Does that answer your question, Kira? 

Kira Hug: I mean, I asked five questions in my one.

Joanna Wiebe: That was two, team and my role. Then there’s this whole working with family thing, which is like,

Kira Hug: Yeah, just give us a taste of what it’s like to work with family, the good and the bad.

Joanna Wiebe: Oh, there’s mostly bad. Just kidding.

Rob Marsh: We’re going to have to figure out a way to block Sarah and your brother from listening to the podcast so you can get real with us here.

Joanna Wiebe: They would say the same thing. Like, we’ve actually talked about doing a podcast on things like working with family, sibling rivalry or something. There was a different word in place of rivalry. I don’t remember. We didn’t do it. We might still do it. It’s tough. It’s really, it’s hard, but at the same time, there’s the benefit of a person that loves you, who you love, wants to help you grow a thing that’s important to you and also to them, right? It’s like, they’re not, if you’re an employee, you can often feel like you’re not part of growing the thing. And I think that that’s my challenge with people. who aren’t my family, who work for me is like reminding them that this is theirs to build too. 

But it’s harder to understand that when you’re not a partner, you don’t have equity in a company, you don’t get paid, you get paid bonuses and performance bonuses. But if there’s not that same level of ownership that you do get when you employ a family member, who cares about you being successful, and who knows you care about them right back. You care about your other employees, too. It’s just you don’t say, love you, Mike. You don’t. I mean, we don’t say this stuff at work anyway. But that’s the good thing. The hard thing is, of course, all of the baked in history, relationship-y stuff, and how that comes out, and how hard it is to have conversations. that are real and honest that don’t come down to, that don’t turn into problems. 

My brother Paul is really good at compartmentalizing me as like his boss versus me as his sister. So I can give him critical feedback and he takes it like a team member, not like my brother. Sarah and I struggle with Sarah’s my older sister. In my family, you were raised to like, you know, if Sarah wanted a glass of water, she would say, Joe, go get me some water. And then you do it. And when I see families that don’t do that, I’m like, that was an option to say no, you could say no to your older sibling. It wasn’t for us. So like, except for Paul, he would always say no to me, whatever. But that’s the tricky thing, right? Those things. So Sarah and I are actually looking at talking to Sarah just came back, she used to work for me. Then she went back to nursing during COVID and now she’s back. So we’re looking at getting a therapist to talk to, to just make sure that we get ahead of things and stay on the same page. Yeah.

Rob Marsh: Remind me not to work with my siblings. I don’t think I could work with my siblings. I love my siblings, but I don’t think that would be… That’d be hard. It’d be really hard. Yeah.

Kira Hug: I could work with one of them, maybe two of the other. Hard no. Hard no.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Sometimes it’s hard enough just to be siblings, let alone to be working together. That’s very true.

Joanna Wiebe: Oh, right. Exactly. It’s hard to get together with your siblings without going like, well, it’s been 20 minutes. I got to go. It’s tough. It’s very tough. And I won’t be hiring. I’ve got two other siblings. There’s no way I’d hire them. I love them and that’s why I just couldn’t do it. Yeah. Yeah. But Purna successfully works with her husband. I know. I think Abby just hired her mom. So there are people who can do it. All the power to them. They need to put out a course on how to do it.

Rob Marsh: Yeah. Or, or maybe their relationships are just better, stronger. I don’t know that, you know, who knows what it is. So Jo, earlier you mentioned, just write a book. That’s how you pretty much launched your business is that you wrote some books and they were shared in the tech community. Let’s say that you don’t have that option right now. I’m just going to take it off the table, even though that may be unrealistic and you had to rebuild a business, you know, starting out from scratch, whatever, what would you do besides write the book to attract that level of attention, the clients to you. I know you don’t want to be pitching. It’s never been your thing. So what would you do to build that authority faster without a book?

Joanna Wiebe: One thing consistently and that one thing would be something that’s easy to distribute and that might have a baked in form of distribution or audience discovery. Substack was my answer until I saw stuff happen there. But that sucks because Substack has that baked in recommendation engine, which is so powerful. If not that, it has to be a thing where you can show up for it, adding value daily, twice daily, whatever that might be. and have it get distributed. So it’s really like, can you do it? I wouldn’t do it on YouTube because you get, it’s very hard to get results on YouTube until you get to a certain level. And even then sounds like it’s hard, but probably I would show up on Instagram being very, very honest and controversial. Not in a negative way, hopefully not in a harmful way, not controversy that’s mean to people, but like saying something that is true, but that people aren’t saying, and just say it a lot in a lot of different ways. But that’s tricky because if it doesn’t hit, then you’ve put a lot of energy in.

Medium might be a way to go, but yeah, it’s sad that Substack has had this stuff going on because it was a really good way to grow your authority really quickly with people who read. That’s the nice thing about blog posts as they used to be and books. It’s for people who read, who engage their brain and their mind. They’re not sitting there saying, Nobody reads online. They’re like, yeah, people actually do consume information and it’ll help get them to buy from us. So I don’t know if there’s an easy way. What do you think? What’s your take on that? Start a podcast. Yeah. I’m always concerned about a podcast. I know you guys do it very successfully. But it’s this walled garden thing that doesn’t seem to have a recommendation engine built in. Does it?

Kira Hug: There are some. I think HubSpot has a recommendation engine built. So I think there are more and more of those organizations that you can tap into.

Rob Marsh: I mean attribution is hard with a podcast for sure. But I think podcasting has one advantage that no other media has. And I know I’ve said this once or twice before, but all other media is external. to us. You see billboards, you read magazines, you even read books outside of your brain, but podcasts happen inside your brain. Even though we’re recording it in the world, you listen to it usually with headphones in, which means that when you’re listening to my voice right now, it is happening inside your head where your own thoughts happen. And so it’s the most intimate of media. 

It’s, for that reason, I love it. And I will say, I shouldn’t be surprised, but I’m amazed every time that somebody has joined our program, how often they’ll say, I am a copywriter today because I started binging your podcast, or I’m here because I learned how to trust you on the podcast. While attribution is really hard to say, we took the 5,000 listeners this week and 30 of them joined our programs, that’s really hard to see. I know it happens because we get it anecdotally. 

Joanna Wiebe: That’s amazing.

Kira Hug: How do you deal with Imposter Complex if you deal with it at all? Because I feel like we all see you. So many copywriters see you. You’re a leader in this space and it sometimes feels like you’re this force and unstoppable and like you can do anything. So it’s got to be easy for you.

Rob Marsh: Didn’t somebody say that you don’t have Imposter Complex?

Kira Hug: Do you have it? Do you deal with it if you do? How do you work through it? Because I think it’s easy for all three of us to talk about authority building and we’ve done it We’re continuing to do it not to say that we don’t do hard things and still always a hard thing to do But what do you recommend those writers listening who are just like getting in their head telling themselves This is gonna be stupid or someone already said this before it’s too crowded What has worked for you or what do you think could work for them? 

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah, I don’t have imposter syndrome like you said, Rob. I haven’t experienced it. And I think that’s just because maybe I didn’t start by taking it that seriously. I don’t know, but like when I started out as a copywriter, I didn’t even know what it meant. So it wasn’t like I didn’t put it on some sort of pedestal. I wasn’t like, there’s so many better people out there. I think there are so many better people out there than I am. Such strong copywriters. And I’m like, well, I’m not that good. But I don’t I don’t know. I just don’t. 

Maybe I’m a raging narcissist. I don’t beat myself up for it. I just feel like we all bring our thing. I know I have a thing to bring and end of story. I don’t. I just don’t. I know so many freelancers in Freelancing School and Copy School pro have this, that exact imposter syndrome. My friend, Tiffany, who used to be head of growth at Shopify, same thing. She had imposter syndrome. Um, and I love listening to people talk about it, but, you know, I think part of it is, um, there’s a, I don’t worry that I’m a horrible writer. I like writing. I enjoy it. Um, I enjoyed it in university and I got rewarded for it. So I like it and I feel like I take it seriously. I take the writing seriously enough and I take my reader seriously enough. But I don’t hold it up as this incredible thing. Unlike, if you were to write some novel, then I think as soon as you have to go pitch somebody on publishing your novel, that’s like when imposter syndrome would really hit. 

I probably suck at this, but I just, I haven’t had that thought and I would encourage people Listen to people who understand imposter syndrome, and if what they’re saying doesn’t get through, if you’re like, that doesn’t feel right either, try. Try my way, which is just like, don’t really care what people have to say about it. Easier said than done. And if you’re like, Jo, that’s dumb, then ignore me. But if the other things that you’ve heard about imposter syndrome haven’t been working, look around. at some of the big name copywriters out there and allow yourself to be really critical of the copy that these people put out. And then you can ask, isn’t that good? I might actually be better than that person is. And let yourself entertain that thought. You might actually be better than they are. If you’re not, a great way to cure imposter syndrome is the same way that you cure writer’s block. Research. Go find out how to do this stuff well. Surround yourself with people who care about this. 

And then you might see that, OK, I can do headlines. Headlines, I rock. And just don’t worry about the other things. Also, don’t try to do everything. Be a sales page copywriter. be the best sales page copywriter, and then forget about emails. That’s not your gem. You don’t have to do emails if you’re a sales page copywriter. Just be that one thing. So maybe you’re spreading yourself too thin. Maybe you’re trying to be everything. Maybe you’re somebody who thinks that you have to get all these results in order to share them because everybody cares. Nobody cares. So just like, I think it’s one part, take it less seriously, and then take parts of it more seriously. Very bad advice from somebody who doesn’t experience imposter syndrome.

Rob Marsh: I have to admit though, I have to, I mean, I relate. I also don’t feel a lot of imposter syndrome in the things that I do either. And I, I’m not sure why I, you know, I can’t put a finger on it. I think I, in your answer, I hear you sort of struggling to put a finger on that. Um, I mean, I, there are definitely things that I feel uncomfortable doing, but like I’ve never thought, Oh, I had a conversation with Sam Woods a long time ago, maybe four or five years ago. We were talking about Gary Halbert’s copy. And Gary Halbert, who is often talked about as the greatest copywriter ever, his copy isn’t stunningly amazing. It’s very simple. He was a master direct response marketer. But his copy is good. I’m certainly not saying, no, he doesn’t deserve the title. But when I read his copy, I’m like, I write like this. Maybe even I write smarter than this sometimes, which is maybe that’s worse in some ways, I know. That depends on the audience. It’s a weird thing. Listening to you answer, I’m shaking my head. I’m like, yeah, I get it. I feel the same way and maybe I should feel imposter complex. I don’t know. I’m broken.

Joanna Wiebe: We’re both broken.

Kira Hug: Okay, so as we start to wrap, I want to get back to what you said about trusting people. I think that’s important. And so how have you started to trust people again? Because I think it is easy. I’ve struggled with this as I’ve grown in our business, trusting people less at times, even as you get like, quote, unquote, bigger. And so how, how are you dealing with that now so that you can trust people?

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. Um, slowly doing it. Um, only, I guess I’m just being like, I’m just kind of careful about letting people in. I don’t think I’ll ever hire anybody again, who identifies themselves as a fan girl or a fanboy, because there’s this level of expectation that you are somebody who is deserving of fans. And I’m like, I didn’t ask for that. So if you come in and you think, Oh, great. I’m working for Joe. This is going to be cool. And you have this weird idea of me, you will find very quickly that I’m like a normal person who operates rapidly. Um, and so you’ll be like, she expects too much. Yeah, I do. So like, you’re not going to like me. And so I wouldn’t recommend it. 

I won’t hire somebody who is like in our, in our world and would say like, my number one thing is to work for you. That’s like, you’ll hate me. So that won’t work. So letting the right people in who I’m unlikely to disappoint, I think maybe that sounds like, whoa, you’ve set the bar low. But kind of that’s the key to happiness I’ve heard. So that’s what’s working for me. And also talking to other founders and business owners who have been through the same. Like the only other time I’ve talked about this person suing me effectively was when Rand Fishkin invited me to talk about it to his SparkToro audience. Rand is so open with the struggles that he’s had. So I think a way to trust is to know that it’s hard for a lot of people. If you’re an employer, it’s a whole different thing to be. So be forgiving with yourself and know that you can forgive yourself and others who judge you by looking around at the people like Rand who’ve had to go through the same thing. So again, it just seems to come back to the people you hang out with, like hang out with people who’ve been through it, and then you can maybe learn to trust again. That’s been my experience at least. Yeah. It’s all about that network is net worth thing.

Rob Marsh: Good advice. So what’s next for you, Joe? What, what’s coming up in the, in 2024, that’s going to make your life, copy hackers, maybe our lives better.

Joanna Wiebe: So I’m working with two research assistants right now on a proper book. tentatively called mine, but it’s just about conversion copywriting. April Dunford and I continue to work toward possibly doing something that we’re calling authority figures, which is like an event based thing where you get together and go through authority building stuff. But that’s That’s the hard thing when you have, I have a business that’s, you know, like growing and doing cool things. And she has a business that’s doing the same and we’re like, we should do this. And then we just end up hanging out together instead. Um, but those are the things. So definitely the book, definitely the book. Um, but then otherwise possibly authority figures, which will maybe be of use.

Rob Marsh: So I’ve been trying to get April on the podcast. She’s, she’s said, well, she’s always like someday, like really busy right now. So maybe if authority figures happens, we can get April on the podcast to talk about it. So that’s going to be my fingers crossed.

Joanna Wiebe: Go ahead, Kira. So I said, hook us up. Oh, for sure. I’ll go with Slacker right after this and see what’s up.

Rob Marsh: She’s not been blowing us off. She’s just like, hey, I’m busy. And I’m like, okay, I’ll follow up in a little while. We’ll see.

Joanna Wiebe: Yeah. I know Q1 is slammed for her, but maybe Q2. That’d be cool.

Rob Marsh: We can always hope.

Kira Hug: All right. So for our listeners who want to connect with you, where’s the best place for them to go? It sounds like maybe it’s Instagram now.

Joanna Wiebe: Where should we go? Maybe Instagram? Yes. I mean, always, if you want to get tutorials and things, YouTube is filled with those. Yeah, I’m sending people off to non-coffee hackers domains and Instagram is all sorts of stuff too. But we do have AI prompts if you’re somebody who’s digging AI or wants to. We’ve got a whole section called AI prompts now, which we also then turn into content on social and YouTube. So you’ll find it in different places. And we’ve got a new series of AI prompts coming. So that’s over on copyhackers.com. That’s like a hub for all of our stuff. Otherwise Instagram is copyhackers and YouTube is copyhackers as well. Thanks y’all. That was fun. Great seeing you again.

Rob Marsh: I’ll see you in seven years.

Thanks to Joanna for joining us to chat about her business. Chances are you already follow her, but if not look for her on social media, she is copyhackers everywhere you go and visit copyhackers.com to learn more about the programs she offer.