Is a happy life one that is abundant with pleasure? Or one without pain? Or one that overcomes struggle? The quest for a good life may go beyond the scope of a psychological study. But bestselling author, Paul Bloom does believe that psychology can help us maximize the circumstances that contribute to our happiness.

In the second part of our interview with psychologist Paul Bloom we delve more into his book  “Psych: The Story of the Human Mind”. Not only do we discuss the factors that lead to a happy life, we talk to Paul about the evolution of selfish versus altruistic behaviors, the ongoing debate between nature versus nurture, how maximizers and satisficers differ and what exactly hypophobia is.

If you’d like to listen to the first part of Paul’s interview, tune in to episode 352 and you'll also enjoy our previous discussion with Paul about his book, The Sweet Spot in episode 241. 

Become a podcast follower of Behavioral Grooves and you will automatically be notified when our new weekly episodes go live.

(2:23) Why Paul hasn’t written a psychology textbook.

(5:03) The evolution of kindness and selfishness. 

(11:57) Nature vs. nurture.

(15:30) Why do we care more about our differences than our similarities?

(18:07) Maximizers vs. satisficers? 

(20:28) Is language infinite in principle, but finite in practice?

(22:19) What is a good life?

(27:34) Do a lot of our politicians have hypophobia (lack of fear)?

(30:47) What music would Paul take to a desert island?

(34:30) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Episode 352, Psychology: Should Freud Still Be On The Syllabus? Paul Bloom, Part 1: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/psychology-freud-on-the-syllabus/ 

Paul Bloom’s book “Psych: The Story of the Human Mind”: https://amzn.to/3MF6raM 

Episode 241 with Paul Bloom, Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Lila Gleitman: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila_R._Gleitman 

Noam Chomsky: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noam_Chomsky 

Randolph Nesse: https://www.randolphnesse.com/ 

The White Lotus Soundtrack “I Want to Live”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I9ffEzCPIA 

Elton John “The Last Song”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5eEQJZm7ZM 

David Bowie “Changes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BgF7Y3q-as 

Tracey Chapman “Fast Car”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIOAlaACuv4 

Joan Armatrading “Already There”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChMcN0ke1eA 

Suzanne Vega “Walk on The Wild Side”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEXGLRLhWls 

Led Zeppelin “Stairway to Heaven”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly6ZhQVnVow 

Pink Floyd “Time”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr0-7Ds79zo 

Ask someone to name a famous psychologist and there’s a good chance they’ll say Sigmund Freud. Describing a person as “anal” or rebuking someone with “I'm not your mother”, are both references to Freud’s work. Since many of his outlandish theories have long been debunked, should he still be part of psychology teaching? Author Paul Bloom lays the case for why he has dedicated a whole chapter to Freud in his new book Psych.

This is the first of two episodes with Paul Bloom, who we are warmly welcoming back to the Behavioral Grooves Podcast following his previous interview in episode 274 back in 2022. Paul joins us to discuss his new book, Psych: The Story of the Human Mind. And since we had such a fascinating (and long!) conversation with Paul, we decided to break it into two, more digestible, episodes. 

In this first episode, we spend time discussing the history of psychology, delving into the importance of Freud, Skinner and Milgram and the impact that behaviorism had. We also jump to the hypothetical future of psychology and where the field may make seismic progress over the next 50 years.

By becoming a follower of Behavioral Grooves Podcast, you will automatically be notified when the second episode of Paul’s interview is released next week, on Monday, April 24th. In that interview, we will delve more into Paul’s book. We will talk about the impetus to write Psych, selfish vs altruistic behaviors, and what makes a good life. 

(5:00) Welcome to Paul Bloom and speed round questions.

(9:33) Why Paul wrote the book Psych.

(12:15) Why Sigmund Freud had a whole chapter in the book.

(18:08) The reason Paul doesn’t have much love for B.F. Skinner.

(25:09) Milgram experiments during a wild west time in psychology.

(29:33) Do we have free will?

(33:42) How will the field of psychology change over the next 50 years?

(37:49) The failures of neuroscience.

(42:41) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on the history of psychology. 

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Paul Bloom’s book “Psych: The Story of the Human Mind”: https://amzn.to/3MF6raM 

Episode 274 with Paul Bloom, Why Finding Pleasure in Life is a Painful Journey: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/pleasure-is-a-painful-journey/ 

Sigmund Freud: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud 

Episode 67, George Loewenstein: On a Functional Theory of Boredom: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/george-loewenstein-on-a-functional-theory-of-boredom/ 

Carl Jung: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_Jung 

B.F. Skinner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._F._Skinner 

Episode 247, Stanford Prison Experiment, 50 Years On: What Have We Really Learnt? With Dr Philip Zimbardo: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/stanford-prison-experiment/ 

Stanley Milgram experiment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment 

Episode 312, How To Find Meaning IN Life | Dr Brian Lowery PhD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/meaning-in-life-brian-lowery/ 

Episode 248, Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/ 

With curiosity we can figure out what we actually want. Sometimes what we desire makes us feel uncomfortable, and as a therapist, our guest Charlotte Fox Weber makes space for that discomfort. Join us as she highlights her observations from the therapist's chair.

“I think curiosity is a life force. It engages us, it galvanizes us, it's inspiring, and it gets us to pay attention.” ~ Charlotte Fox Weber

Many people see a therapist to help them work through psychological issues. But have you ever considered what the dynamic is like from the point of view of the therapist? If you were a fly on the wall, what would you observe behind the closed doors? 

Charlotte Fox Weber brings a unique perspective to the therapist-client relationship. Her new book “Tell Me What You Want: A Therapist and Her Clients Explore Our 12 Deepest Desires”: https://amzn.to/3ZJ9XUl, expertly pulls out recurring themes from her years as a therapist which are beautifully illustrated with captivating stories.

According to Charlotte, we each have 12 fundamental psychological needs that we all share but often hide. These universal desires are: to love and be loved; understanding, power, attention, freedom; to create, to belong, to win, to connect, to control; and to want what we shouldn’t. With her experience as a therapist, Charlotte is aiming to help us navigate our desires through curiosity and authenticity. If we can more accurately acknowledge what we actually want, we can live a more fulfilled life.

“The 12 desires I describe, all have to do with recognition.” ~ Charlotte Fox Weber

Our interview with Charlotte was recorded a few weeks ago when Tim Houlihan was unwell, so our producer Mary Kaliff joins Kurt on this episode as co-host of the show. But you’ll be pleased to know that Tim is doing much better now and you’ll be hearing his familiar voice on all upcoming episodes again!

(1:56) Welcome and speed round questions.

(4:09) Why is it so hard for us to say what we want?

(8:14) Why curiosity is so important in therapy.

(11:37) The 12 desires that we each experience.

(13:27) Do we have desires that stay consistent throughout our life?

(18:22) How do we reconcile all of our identities?

(20:14) Why do we struggle holding two truths simultaneously?

(25:42) How jazz music helps us appreciate the notes unplayed.

(29:50) Of the 12 desires, which one makes us most uncomfortable?

(33:53) The cost of giving or paying attention.

(36:39) Grooving session with Kurt and Mary.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Charlotte Fox Weber: https://charlottefoxweber.com/ 

Charlotte’s book: “Tell Me What You Want: A Therapist and Her Clients Explore Our 12 Deepest Desires”: https://amzn.to/3ZJ9XUl 

Shankar Vedantam TED Talk “You don't actually know what your future self wants”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtfaccGmCCs 

Episode 325, Can You Unlearn History And Still Love Your Country? With Dolly Chugh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/dolly-chugh/ 

Episode 178, Kwame Christian: On Compassionate Curiosity, Social Justice Conversations, and Cinnamon Toast Crunch: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/kwame-christian-on-compassionate-curiosity-social-justice-conversations-and-cinnamon-toast-crunch/ 

Episode 344, How To Frame Incentives To Drive The Desired Behavior with James Castello: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/incentives-to-drive-behavior/ 

Episode 237, Attention: How to Capture It and Keep It with Ben Parr: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/attention-with-ben-parr/ 

Episode 303, From Distracted To Focused: Nir Eyal’s Secrets On How To Be Indistractable: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/nir-eyal-how-to-be-indistractable/ 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Nina Simone “Feeling Good”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRNrgDIJfo

Words matter. Unbelievably, tiny changes to language can have a big effect on behavior. Hear bestselling author, Jonah Berger reveal the magic words that can completely transform how we behave, in this riveting episode.

Almost everything we do involves words. But have you ever stopped to consider how much influence the words you choose can have on the person reading your email, or listening to your presentation? Some words are more impactful than others. In fact, we can captivate, motivate and convince people with our words. But which words are the most powerful? 

Listen in to find out:

• How words can shape our identity.
• Tips on using language to positively affect our relationships.
• How simply changing the words in an email can dramatically alter behavior.

Jonah Berger’s last book, “Magic Words: What To Say To Get Your Way” is a succinct summary of the latest scientific research on words and language. Jonah joins us on Behavioral Grooves, not only to tell us about what to expect in the book, but also to recount the story of how the idea for the book was sparked by a delayed flight.

Jonah is a former guest of Behavioral Grooves Podcast, having previously been on the show to discuss his bestselling book The Catalyst: How to Change Anyone's Mind. He is a professor at The Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and is known as a world-renowned expert on natural language processing, word of mouth, influence, consumer behavior, and why things catch on. 

Word of mouth is the number one way that new listeners find out about Behavioral Grooves podcast. If you feel wiser having listened to this episode, please share it on social media or email it to your friends and encourage them to become a listener too. Thank you!

(3:27) Welcome and speed round questions.

(5:09) Why asking for advice makes us actually seem smarter.

(7:17) Using abstract vs. concrete language.

(12:42) How Jonah researched the use of language.

(16:49) How can our language affect our relationships.

(19:31) Turning actions into identities.

(22:47) Priming behavior with language.

(25:00) Do the lyrics of songs help explain their success?

(28:27) Grooving Session with Tim and Kurt on why words matter.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Jonah Berger: https://jonahberger.com/ 

Jonah’s book, “Magic Words: What To Say To Get Your Way”: https://amzn.to/3Kp9r9T 

Episode 201, The Counterintuitive Persuasion of The Catalyst with Jonah Berger: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-catalyst-with-jonah-berger/ 

Episode 147, Gary Latham, PhD: Goal Setting, Prompts, Priming, and Skepticism: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/gary-latham-goal-setting-prompts/ 

Episode 319, John Bargh: Want to Know How Priming Works? It Starts With Your Conscious, Not Your Unconscious: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk&ab_channel=RUNDMCVEVO 

Leonardelli, Geoffrey & Pickett, Cynthia & Brewer, Marilynn. (2010). Optimal Distinctiveness Theory. Advances in Experimental Social Psychology: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/241065845_Optimal_Distinctiveness_Theory 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves

Suzanne Vega, DNA “Tom's Diner”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4jtIDaeaWI 

RUN DMC - Walk This Way featuring Aerosmith: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk&ab_channel=RUNDMCVEVO

What lies ahead for applied behavioral science? How can we learn from the massive growth in the field over the last 15 years? Our guest, Michael Hallsworth, has very recently published a manifesto on the future of behavioural science and we’re privileged to discuss this landmark publication with him on this episode.

Dr Michael Hallsworth PhD has been on the forefront of thought leadership and scholarship in behavioral science for many years. Having earned his PhD in Behavioural Economics from Imperial College in London, he has since spent most of his career working in either public policy or on corporate applications around the world. He is now the Managing Director, North America for the Behavioural Insights Team (BIT).

Stemming from the original Behavioural Insights Team formed at the heart of the UK government in 2010, BIT has grown into a global company, driving positive change in communities and organizations all across the world. Having grown international teams, demonstrated workable behavioral results and shaken up policies around the world, Michael felt it was a good time for BIT to reflect on how far they had come.

In the Manifesto for Applying Behavioural Science, Michael lays out 10 proposals that chart the path forward for behavioral science. We touch on these proposals in our discussion with Michael and the opportunities they present for the future.

* Behavioral science is a global field but unfortunately the spelling is not! In an effort to be diplomatic, we are using both spellings in the show notes!

(4:54) Why does behavioural science need a manifesto?

(7:18) What are some of the major themes?

(11:15) How Michael is flipping the prospective on scaling.

(16:37) Using behavioral science as a lens.

(21:33) Putting randomized controlled trials (RCTs) in their place.

(26:02) Choice infrastructure.

(30:25) The vulnerability of behavioral science to overconfidence.

(35:09) Reframing our language away from rational vs irrational behavior.

(39:25) Using algorithms to reduce inequities rather than exploit vulnerabilities. 

(47:28) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on applying behavioral science.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Manifesto for Applying Behavioural Science: https://www.bi.team/publications/a-manifesto-for-applying-behavioral-science/ 

Misconceptions about the Practice of Behavioral Public Policy: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4328659 

EAST Model: https://www.bi.team/publications/east-four-simple-ways-to-apply-behavioural-insights/ 

Mindscape Framework: https://thedecisionlab.com/reference-guide/neuroscience/mindspace-framework 

Ruth Schmidt, Zeya Chen, Veronica Paz Soldan (2022) Choice Posture, Architecture, and Infrastructure: Systemic Behavioral Design for Public Health Policy: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2405872622000661 

Ruth Schmidt & Katelyn Stenger (2021). Behavioral brittleness: The case for strategic behavioral public policy: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/behavioural-public-policy/article/behavioral-brittleness-the-case-for-strategic-behavioral-public-policy/200D5BBC2947F7AB0CD4B4CD71B6A607 

Behavioral Grooves Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/behavioralgrooves 

What if there was a way to end poverty and solve climate change, that might actually work. Shouldn’t we try it? Our guest Erik Angner thinks economics holds the solutions to some of the world’s biggest problems but that economists have done a woeful job of PR! He’s on a mission to change that.

Erik Angner PhD is Professor of Practical Philosophy at Stockholm University. He holds, not one but two PhDs – in Economics and in History and Philosophy of Science – both from the University of Pittsburgh. 

Erik joins us on Behavioral Grooves to discuss his new book economics-can-save-the-world.html">How Economics Can Save the World. He is also the author of two other books, Hayek and Natural Law and A Course in Behavioral Economics as well as multiple journal articles and book chapters on behavioral and experimental economics; the science and philosophy of happiness; and the history, philosophy, and methodology of contemporary economics. 

Please join us on Behavioral Grooves Twitter (@behavioralgroov) to take part in some poll questions around Erik’s episode and discuss this conversation.

(3:34) Welcome and speed round questions.

(7:12) What exactly is economics and how is it useful?

(11:15) How can economics save the world?

(13:10) How we can actually solve poverty.

(17:14) Scarcity and how it influences our behavior.

(21:08) The scarcity of healthcare.

(24:35) Why trust is the critical factor in vaccination take-up.

(28:55) What are the unintended consequences?

(31:30) How can economics solve climate change?

(36:36) How social norms influence our behavior.

(41:29) Does money make us happy?

(49:11) What music would Erik take on a desert island?

(51:40) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim on saving the world.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Erik Angner PhD: https://www.erikangner.com/

Erik’s book “How Economics Can Save the World: Simple Ideas to Solve Our Biggest Problems”: https://amzn.to/3YU49qN 

Episode 102, Christina Bicchieri, PhD: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/ 

Friedrich Hayek: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Hayek 

Jeremy Bentham: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10902-010-9204-z#:~:text=Bentham%20defined%20happiness%20in%20terms,seen%20as%20contribution%20to%20happiness. 

Tom Waits “Hold On”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P5jV4lHHR0 

PJ Harvey “This Is Love”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STxXS5lLunE   

To be influential you do not require power, but wielding your influence is powerful. Vanessa Bohns, social psychologist and professor of organizational behavior at Cornell University, joins us to discuss her enticing new book “You Have More Influence Than You Think”. She draws from her research to illustrate why underestimating our influence can lead us to miss opportunities or worse yet, to misuse our power.

Vanessa challenges us to examine our powers of persuasion and to recognize that we have more influence than we even realize. We learn exactly why it’s so hard for us to say no, even when we’re uncomfortable with saying yes. And why we should focus on communicating more with people face-to-face.

As with all of our episodes, we leave you with a Grooving Session discussion focusing on how we can use Vanessa’s research to improve our lives, our relationships and our workplaces. Maybe this episode will influence you more than you realize? If it does, please support our ongoing work by contributing to our Patreon page at (just imagine, if we asked you in person, would you say yes?).

This is episode is republished from our discussion with Vanessa in 2021, but her research and insights have come up in our discussions time and time again. 

(3:19) Welcome to Vanessa Bohns.

(5:46) How your enjoyment of chocolate is influenced by others.

(8:15) The spotlight effect; is everyone really looking at me?

(12:34) How can we influence people more than we think?

(17:20) How Vanessa discovered people are likely to help, if you ask.

(23:34) Why it’s so much harder to say no than we think.

(26:50) How power amplifies your influence.

(29:22) Why we need to recognize white privilege as a position of power.

(32:47) Communication: why our choice of words matter.

(34:13) Robert Cialdini’s Influence.

(36:30) What are the most common misconceptions about influence?

(41:07) What are the 2 biggest takeaways from the book?

(43:52) How music has influenced Vanessa.

(49:13) Grooving Session discussing how to apply Vanessa’s research.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

“You Have More Influence Than You Think: How We Underestimate Our Power of Persuasion, and Why It Matters” Book by Vanessa Bohns: https://amzn.to/39vCDIN 

John Bargh, Episode 248: Do We Control Situations or Do Situations Control Us? With John Bargh: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/control-situations-with-john-bargh/

Shankar Vedantam, Episode 222: How Delusions Can Actually Be Useful: Shankar Vedantam Reveals How: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/shankar-vedantam-useful-delusions/

Cristina Bicchieri, Episode 102: Social Norms are Bundles of Expectations:  https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cristina-bicchieri-social-norms-are-bundles-of-expectations/

“Shared Experiences Are Amplified”  Erica J. Boothby, Margaret S. Clark, John A. Bargh (2014): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614551162 

“Good Lamps Are the Best Police: Darkness Increases Dishonesty and Self-Interested Behavior” Chen-Bo Zhong, Vanessa K. Bohns, Francesca Gino (2010): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797609360754 

Robert Frank on the Power of Peer Pressure in Fighting Climate Change: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmOUNgXKd0c&ab_channel=Rare 

Robert Cialdini, Episode 226: The Power Of Unity: Robert Cialdini Expands His Best Selling Book Influence: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/cialdini-unity-in-influence/

How to Start a Movement | Dan Sivers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V74AxCqOTvg 

Bronksi Beats “Smalltown Boy”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88sARuFu-tc 

Sleigh Bells “Locust Laced”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzLOcmRRUfg 

The National “Light Years”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FQtSn_vak0 

Vampire Weekend “This Life”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwkrrU2WYKg 

David Bowie “Ashes to Ashes”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyMm4rJemtI 

Harry Styles “Watermelon Sugar”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKlD97TnYwM 

Billie Ellish “Everything I Wanted”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgBJmlPo8Xw 

Taylor Swift “Willow”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsEZmictANA 

Nirvana “Smells Like Teen Spirit”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTWKbfoikeg 

Working and parenting often feel like being pulled in two different directions. But what if we could reframe our thinking and actually appreciate that our experiences in one role can enhance the quality of life in the other. We explore the ways you can reframe your mindset with author and podcaster Yael Schonbrun.

“If we’re able to see that there are opportunities for our roles to feed each other, then we're more likely to to access those experiences and benefit more from them.” ~ Yael Schonbrun, Episode 346

Yael Schonbrun is an assistant professor of psychology at Brown University, a family therapist, and co-host of the podcast Psychologists Off the Clock. In her new book Work, Parent, Thrive: 12 Science-Backed Strategies to Ditch Guilt, Manage Overwhelm, and Grow Connection (When Everything Feels Like Too Much) Yael offers practical strategies from clinical psychology and social science to better manage the conflict and enhance enrichment in work, parenting, and the balance of these meaningful roles. 

Regular listeners will have noticed that co-host of the show, Tim Houlihan is unfortunately off sick for a few episodes of Behavioral Grooves. So on this episode, producer of the show, Mary Kaliff, joins Kurt Nelson for the discussion with Yael. Listeners can jump on social media (Twitter: @THoulihan or LinkedIn) and wish Tim a speedy recovery.

We hope this episode provides you with some practical tools to help you work, parent and thrive. If you do enjoy Behavioral Grooves, please write a short review of the show on your podcast player. Just sharing a short sentence about why you like the show can make it easier for other people to find the podcast.

(3:32) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:33) Why parenting is difficult even for experts.

(12:07) How a mindset shift can change how we view our parenting and our work.

(16:00) The questions you can ask yourself to change your mindset.

(19:22) How Yael tapped into her own personal values during a difficult time.

(24:46) Pains live right alongside gains.

(29:32) How Jewish kibbutz communities raised children.

(32:42) Why we need to quit the things that aren’t working.

(36:36) How to nurture more independence in our children. 

(40:03) The 3 components of self compassion.

(45:34) Modeling the behavior that you want your kids to develop.

(46:54) What music would Yael take to a desert island?

(48:54) Grooving Session with Kurt and Mary on working, parenting and thriving.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Yael Schonbrun: https://yaelschonbrun.com/ 

Yael’s book, “Work, Parent, Thrive: 12 Science-Backed Strategies to Ditch Guilt, Manage Overwhelm, and Grow Connection (When Everything Feels Like Too Much)”: https://amzn.to/3IVEzNk 

Growth mindset, Carol Dweck: “Mindset: The New Psychology of Success”: https://amzn.to/3J7V9tD 

Episode 327, A Proven Way Expectations Can Unlock A More Positive Life | David Robson: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/expectations-and-a-positive-life/ 

Episode 345, The Tools You Need To Embrace Uncertainty | Nathan and Susannah Harmon Furr: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/tools-to-embrace-uncertainty/ 

Episode 342: Why Resilience Is More Than Just Bouncing Back | Gabriella Rosen Kellerman MD: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/resilience-more-than-bouncing-back/ 

Weird Al Yankovic “Another One Rides The Bus”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79QxturUolo 

Taylor Swift “Midnight Rain”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Odh9ddPUkEY 

We all face uncertainty at some point in our lives. But do we embrace it or resist it? Our thoughts about uncertainty and ambiguity shape the actions we take when we are faced with change. If we reframe how we view uncertainty, we can rewrite the story we tell ourselves.

“The way we describe something to ourselves and others, shapes how we think, decide and act.”

Our guests on this episode are the most delightful husband and wife team, Nathan Furr and Susannah Harmon Furr who have written a fantastic book together, “The Upside of Uncertainty: A Guide to Finding Possibility in the Unknown”.

Ironically recording this episode has been plagued with uncertainty. Our first attempt, last summer, was bugged with audio issues, and since then we have faced a number of technical glitches. When we finally got a chance to sit down and re-record an interview with them recently, it unfortunately fell at a time that our own Tim Houlihan was unable to join the conversation due to illness. So Kurt Nelson embraced the uncertainty and flew solo on this interview!

We learn from Nathan and Susannah about the types of uncertainty and some of the tools that they have devised to overcome those periods of our lives when everything seems unsure. We know you’ll take away a lot from this discussion, and we encourage you to also read their book which is packed full of useful advice.

One thing we are certain about at Behavioral Grooves is how much we appreciate and rely on the support of you, our wonderful listeners. If you feel able, please join our growing community of Patreon supporters.

(2:25) Welcome and speed round questions.

(8:20) How achievers step into uncertainty.

(11:05) Planned uncertainty vs. unplanned uncertainty. 

(14:30) Uncertainty and possibility are two sides of the same coin.

(21:32) Some of the tools to overcome uncertainty.

(27:54) The possibility quotient. 

(33:22) How do uncertainty balancers counteract the unknown? 

(36:09) Why we should take more risks with options that inspire us.

(39:32) Breaking down big uncertainties into small steps.

(44:31) Don’t wait until all the pieces are in place.

(47:36) The sustaining tools to help when you need a boost.

(50:38) How emotional hygiene can help you face the ups and downs of uncertainty.

(52:43) The UP School.

(55:13) The musical experience that changed Nathan’s life.

(1:00:54) Grooving Session with Kurt on grabbling with uncertainty.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Nathan and Susannah’s book “The Upside of Uncertainty: A Guide to Finding Possibility in the Unknown”: https://amzn.to/3ZiuXBv 

UP: https://www.theupsideofuncertainty.com/ 

UP School: https://www.theupsideofuncertainty.com/learn 

Buckminster Fuller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckminster_Fuller 

Reconstructed Living Labs (RLabs): https://rlabs.org/ 

Guy Winch, emotional hygiene: https://www.ted.com/talks/guy_winch_why_we_all_need_to_practice_emotional_first_aid?language=en 

Vincenzo Lamagna’s adaption of Giselle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27lgUp_FboE&ab_channel=VariousArtists-Topic 

If you want to incentivize an outcome, don’t just focus on the final reward, hone in on the behavior that will drive the result. Whether we’re motivating our employees, our kids or ourselves, we can all benefit from learning how to effectively drive behavior.

“ Incentives drive behavior. So if you don't get the behaviors right, that's where incentives go off the rail.” ~ James Castello, Episode 344

Our guest on this episode is James Castello, Vice President of Field Operations and Incentive Compensation Practices at TGaS Advisors. TGaS Advisors is one of the leading consultancies focused on the pharmaceutical industry.  They provide insights and real world knowledge to hundreds of the leading life science companies around the world. 

While this episode is focused on how incentives can be created effectively to reach sales targets, the takeaways from the discussion with Jim can be applied to many aspects of our lives. Be sure to join Kurt and Tim in the Grooving Session in the last portion of the episode, as they summarize the most applicable aspects of the interview.

(6:25) Welcome and speed round question.

(8:32) Collaboration is just a means to an end.

(10:49) Incentives drive behavior.

(13:44) The influence of the pandemic on incentives.

(17:25) How do you align incentives with behaviors?

(20:05) The importance of language in incentives.

(25:14) What exactly is goal setting?

(33:04) Breaking goals into manageable chunks to remove objections.

(38:54) Do contests work well for driving sales?

(47:00) What music would Jim take to a desert island?

(51:02) Grooving Session with Kurt and Tim discussing incentives.

© 2023 Behavioral Grooves

Brain/Shift Journal Shopify: https://www.100behaviors.com/products/the-brain-shift-journal-volume-1

Brain/Shift Journal Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Brain-Shift-Journal-1/dp/B0BN2JZBJ2/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=brain+shift&qid=1670950820&sr=8-1

James Castello: https://trinitylifesciences.com/our-experts/james-castello/ 

T-GaS Advisors: https://www.linkedin.com/company/tgas-advisors/ 

100th Episode of Behavioral Grooves: https://behavioralgrooves.com/episode/the-100th-episode-celebration-in-philadelphia/ 

Lake Wobegon Effect: https://psychology.fandom.com/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect 

Bob Dylan “Like a Rollin’ Stone”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0 

AC/DC “It's a Long Way to the Top (If You Wanna Rock 'N' Roll)“: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj_rvLVpqg8&ab_channel=AC%2FDC-Topic 

Metallica “Enter Sandman”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD-E-LDc384