Hi there! This is Krista with Episode #110 on the Wag Out Loud Pawdcast. A great reminder that I recently read in the Whole Dog Journal suggested that we should not punish our dogs for growling because that is one of the only ways your dog has of warning you he’s extremely scared or nervous.  The warning growl is actually a good thing and means they are doing their best not to bite. We appreciate our sponsor: ULTIMATE PET NUTRITION We so appreciate our friends at Ultimate Pet Nutrition for sponsoring this episode. If you’re a fan of this show, then you probably remember the interview How to Treat Your Dog Holistically & Successfully with “America’s Favorite Veterinarian” and the #1 Amazon Best-Selling Author, Dr. Gary Richter. He has received more than 30 awards due to his expertise in the field of veterinary medicine and has been at the forefront of pet nutrition for two decades. Did you know that Dr. Richter has created his own lineup of the most advanced formulations of food, treats and pet supplements on the market? Every purchase is backed by their 90-Day Refund Promise, so I encourage you to Check out all of their products (and five-star reviews) that help your dog stay happy and healthy. Go to ultimatepetnutrition.com and save 20% by using the code WOL20 Hello dog lovers, are you ready to geek out about dogs? I want to give you a warning that we are covering a very deep topic today. So, Jeffrey, thanks for being here with us on the show. Could you please introduce yourself? And tell us about your love of dogs? And specifically about your most recent book, Lost companions: reflections on the death of pets? Yes, Krista. I'm delighted to do so my name is Jeffrey Masson. I have written 31 books, far too many. Most of them have been about animals, I used to be a psycho analyst I gave up on that. I thought humans are too indirect. I like the directness of animals. And especially I have to say, of dogs. I think I learned more about love from dogs than anyone except perhaps my wife and my children. So I wrote a book that was quite popular called When Elephants Weep. That was the first time I think that anyone had written about the emotional lives of animals since Darwin. And that was what, almost 30 years ago now it's become a very popular topic. And there are lots of wonderful books about it much better than mine. And then I wrote right after that I wrote, dogs never lie about love, which also became incredibly popular, and again, has been overtaken by many other books that talk about how extraordinary dogs are. I think there's hardly a university in the United States that doesn't have a dog cognition, library, sorry, laboratory. Library, because there's some 70,000 books now written about dogs. It's extraordinary when you think about it. But rather than cognition, my interest has always been not what they think, but what they feel. And I still believe To this day, and I'm waiting for someone to write about it in greater depth. Why is it the dogs seem to understand certain emotions, more, more than we do that they feel them more powerfully. I'm thinking, of course of love. But there are many other feelings that dogs have, that seem to surpass ours. For example, friendship, the ability to be friends, is something that dogs have, instantaneously, when they meet another dog. We live in Sydney. And we go for walks along the ocean every day, for four or five miles, and we meet constantly meet dogs, and neighbors realize that we don't have a dog. So they say, Take ours for a walk. And we do every day. We take some neighbor's dog for a walk. And we've discovered that every single dog they see, interests them, they stop, they basically say hi, who are you? I'd love to play with you. Unfortunately, the person who was holding my leash won't let me if I were free, I’d do nothing but play our ability to form friends so quickly, regardless of anything, they don't care about their size. They don't care the breed, they don't care, the color, they don't care the age. They just love the fact we're all dogs here together. And if only we could all be together all day, that's all we want to do. Wouldn't it be it? Wouldn't be I think that's a lesson for us. they've they've achieved I mean, we only talk to strangers on the walk when they have a dog. And then of course, we're friendly. But I would never just stop some say, you look interesting. Could you tell me where you from? What language do you speak? How Where do you live? How often do you come? I would never do that, of course. But dogs do it all the time. So their ability to form friends, their ability to feel love, their ability even to feel disappointment, without getting angry. In other words, when you say I'm going to take you for a walk, then suddenly somebody comes there's no you can't. We have to rush off somewhere and you tell the dog Sorry, I can't do it. The dog's eyes reflect their disappointment. They never get angry over it. They sigh, Okay, I'll wait to come back even if it's next week. It's true. It's extraordinary. I don't understand yet and I don't think anybody does. Why dogs have emotions, so much purer than the human emotion. They're not mixed with any kind of ambivalence. Whatever they feel they feel at the moment. They express it. They are their feelings. I love that about them. That is one of the things I love about him as well. Well, Jeffrey, you wanted to title this episode. You and your dog are One. What do you mean by that statement? Well, I was thinking of the fact that the latest research shows that dogs have been with us, possibly since the very beginning of our modern personhood. In other words, if humans go back modern humans, as we know them today, if they go back, say 50,000 years? Well, in that case, it's possible that dogs have been with us that entire time, that they have been that they that we have, in fact, co evolved. So here is an animal that lives with humans for at least 30,000 years, possibly more, definitely no less than 20,000 years. So that we've learned to be together in a way that no other two species have. And that indicates that there is something special about this bond, and most people live with a dog, feel it, they may not be able to explain it or express it, but they feel it. So when I say they're one, I feel that we are, they are definitely family. And you become aware of this, not just in the joy you get. But also unfortunately, and that's why I wrote this book, about the loss of dogs in particular, but any animal really that we become close to, that we feel this bond with them. And when they die, it's like a family member has died. And it wasn't that long ago, when people would especially tell children, oh, just get over it. It's only a dog. No, he or she is not only a dog he or she is a close family member who has loved you in a way that no other creature on earth will ever love you. without the slightest ambivalence, the slightest ambiguity you are if they look at you, I mean, sometimes it's a little bit strange, because you often see people who are cruel to animals, and the dog just looks at that person. Like, I don't get it. I don't understand why you're like this with me. I just have nothing but love for you. Why don't you feel that for me? Right? So they're constantly teaching us something very essential. About I wouldn't say human nature, I would say about the nature of every living creature. And if we could only learn that from them, maybe they're just waiting. And one day, that's the Okay, humans got it, we can go back to our own planet. That's an interesting thought. you say the dogs have only one fault. What is that? Well, the fault is they don't live as long as we want them to live. They don't live as long as we do. And I think the most profound upset in a child's life apart from losing their parent is to lose their dog. When as as they grow up, and both of our children were very, very close to Benji was a golden lab who had been a seeing eye dog, and then became a therapy dog. And all he really wanted to do was hang out with our family on the beach, which he did for many, many years. He lived till he was 14. But we moved around a lot. So we took him from New Zealand to Australia. Then we took him from Australia to Germany. And when we had to go back to New Zealand to Australia, the vet would not allow us to bring him he was then 14 they said he can't take that 36 hour trip anymore. So he lived with our son who was very, very close and bonded to him, and couldn't believe that he was going to die. And he clearly was he was 14. And that's their only fault because they don't live as long as we want them to live. It's very hard on our son. My wife traveled back to Germany to be with him for the last week. I stayed with our younger son. And it really, in a way I mean, I don't know. And then in the book I struggle with this, do we how do we deal with this? Do we get another dog? Or do we simply live with that pain? In the end? I decided it would be a good idea if you're young enough to get another dog to rescue another dog. She didn't say get it. It's not the right word. Is it to rescue another dog? Because there's so many dogs at least there were before COVID hit right now in Australia. You cannot get a dog for lover or money because all dogs are spoken for. Right? Isn't that great? Everybody wants to be with a dog they realize, Hey, this is great. Dog. Well, I think We can all agree that losing our beloved dogs is absolutely heart wrenching. And you're going to share the psychology around that grieving. Why do you think that so many of us find that losing a dog can actually be harder than losing a relative or a friend? Yes, I was surprised to read when I looked online, I saw a number of very sophisticated people writing, there was one article that I talked about where a man in this case it was lost this cat. And he said, I felt deeper grief when my cat died than when my father died. And I would very much like to know what kind of a father he had, but I suspect that people do not experience with with animals, the kind of ambivalent relationship they often add, even with loved ones that sometimes you love them. And sometimes you don't, sometimes you need to be alone. And sometimes you wish they weren't there. And I don't think that ever happens with a dog, certainly no child has ever said, I just don't want to be with my dog today. That's all they want to do is be with them the entire time. And that is because the dog is not judging them. The dog is not looking at them with ambivalence, not complaining, why don't you do this? Why don't you do that? Why aren't you more like this? Why aren't you more like that? They don't do that. They accept you for who you are. And I don't think we have that relationship with any other being except the dog and some other animals. And I do talk about that in the book. But the dog represents this to a depth that I don't think we find anywhere else in the natural world. And by the way, that is also a puzzle. Why aren't there somewhere in the wild, two completely different species who've decided we're one it doesn't exist. That is that is also part of the mystery, that the only two species that have formed this deep bond, are humans and dogs. And do you think that a lot of times that, you know, because we're the ones who maybe are watching their suffering, and know that they’ll be passing soon that we are the ones who have to make that ultimate decision? Does that play into the psychology as well? Well, good point. Yes, of course it does. And I think most people wish they didn't have to make that decision. They'd like to say to the dog, you decide, when it's time. And by the way, some cats managed to do that. And it's it's also a rather strange phenomenon. But some cats, I've heard this quite often. And I've experienced with many of our cats, that when it's time to go, they simply disappear into the forest or the woods or backyard, they find a place where they can be alone. And and they die by themselves. Dogs don't want to do that they want to be with us. And unfortunately, they don't decide when it's time. I don't think I'm not sure you can hear the hesitancy in my voice. I'm not sure the dogs really understand death. And I'm not sure that we do either. We certainly don't understand their death. Why do you need to go now? But I did read a very interesting article by a veterinarian who wanted to be anonymous. I don't quite know why. But what he wrote was he or she, I don't even know. He said, when your dog when the time has come and you bring your dog to a vet for the final moment. I beg you Don't leave the room. As difficult as it may be for you to be there. You have to stay and hold the dog in your arms for the final passing. Because I have experienced that when people are too emotionally upset and they leave the room. The dog looks around in panic. Where is my person? And at that moment, I think you can say the dog knows this is the end. I don't want to be separated from the person I love. I want them to be there for me. So his advice was never no matter how painful it is, no matter how much sorrow you're feeling stay with your dog. That is a great point. Because don't we owe it to them to be there in their last moments? Absolutely, absolutely. We have to. And something very profound happens in those last moments that I don't I think we, we even have words for it. We don't know what it is, it's almost, you know, you say, why are we one? Well, I think it's at that moment that we realize that there is this almost Soul to Soul meeting. And they become part of us. And of course, that is the wonderful thing about memory, we remember them, then, constantly, I'm amazed at how often my children or my wife will turn to me and say, remember, when Benji did this, or remember, when we went here with Benji, you know, he's constantly in our memory constantly. I wanted to also point out in my mind, you know, the final days, or let's say, a dog has a disease, or needs major medical attention to prolong their life, and maybe the pet parent can't afford that treatment. So, at that point, if the dog is euthanized, we must take on a huge sense of guilt, because we could not afford that prolonging of life. Do you think that comes into play as well? Well, good point. I hadn't thought about that very much. But you're, you're certainly right, that there are moments and we think oh, my God, I don't know if you What is that? That that film Nomadland? Have you seen that? I haven't? I know it's out Now. I want to see it. Okay. Well, there's a moment in it is a very deep film about homeless people where they're not entirely homeless. As they say, they don't have a house, but they have a home, they're in their vehicle. But there's a moment where somebody has abandoned a dog. And the you understand immediately that people were so poor, they they couldn't take the dog with them. And everybody in the movie, as I was watching it in the movie house, and my wife and I turned to each other, she looks at the dog, she inquires, she discovers the dog has been abandoned, and you are 100% certain that she's going to take the dog with her, and she does not. And I found that so deeply upsetting. On the other hand, of course, I've never been in a position where I was homeless, or houseless, and could barely survive. But I think that most people seeing that their first thought would be Oh, my God, you should have taken that dog, he would have brought you such joy. And you would have helped him not I like to think that in reality, that dog, mind you it is a film. So I don't know what was the real situation. But I'm sure that a dog like that was simply put on a leash and tied to a post. In this semi abandoned town, I'm sure somebody would have realized, Oh, my God, this dog is by himself or herself. I'll take the dog with me, I will get pleasure, and the dog will get pleasure. So we find it very hard to put ourselves in the position of someone so poor, that they can't have a dog as a companion, or that they can’t help the dog when it's suffering. But of course, that happens there are people simply don't have the funds to pay for that. I'd like to think that if I were a vet, I would make it my life's work to go around helping very poor people for free with the problems they have with their dog. There should be clinics, free clinics for dogs. I don't know if there are any. Do you know that Krista? Well, I know here in Colorado, we have the Morris animal Foundation, which does pro bono work, which is amazing. But you know, it's through donations as well. I just can't imagine being put in that situation. But I also wanted to ask you, you alluded to this earlier, you know, the naysayers that say, Oh, it's just a dog, you know, why are you so upset? That has to be so damaging to the people that are going through that loss? And what do you say about that? Because then there's more guilt or shame for grieving? Yeah, well, I mean, one of the points of writing the book was to make absolutely certain that anyone reading it, especially somebody with a child when the child's animal dies, never, ever say anything like that. Allow them as much time as they want to grieve. Allow them to do whatever they want to do in the way of creating some sort of ceremony or ritual around the death. Let them cry as long as they want. Never say anything belittling about that animal. I do believe that we have gotten that I don't think there are many people today I, I know the 10 or 20, or 30 years ago, that parents were likely to tell their child, that's enough grieving. Now, I don't think people would be likely to do that any longer we do recognize psychologically how important it is, for that whole process to be gone through, especially for children, they have to be, you have to acknowledge their grief, you have to acknowledge their love, you have to acknowledge how close they felt to their animals, even if you feel they were closer to the dog than they were to you, as their parents. That's perfectly possible that they were because they got a certain kind of love that you cannot give them they recognize that in many ways you are inferior to a dog. That is that is right. Good point. And Jeffrey, you do think that depending on our age, at the time of our dog's death, that it is a good idea to rescue another dog? Yeah, I do believe that it was difficult for me to think about it. Because after I lost our dog, I could not think this dog will replace that dog because they can't, any more than a human could. But after a certain point, I think you give yourself the time you need. And then you will start realizing Gee, I'm missing having a dog. Now in my case, I'm 80 years old. My wife is a lot younger, but we live in in Australia. And pretty soon we'll be able to travel a lot to Europe. She's from Germany, and we tend to go every year to Europe. So we really can't have a dog. And we were really, really desperate over that we thought What's wrong? What kind of lifestyle? Are we leading, that we can't live with a dog. And what we discovered is when we talked about this to our neighbors, almost all of them said, Hey, I have a dog. How about if you take my dog every other day for a walk. In the end, we now have four dogs that we routinely walk. So we never go to the beach without taking a dog with us. And that's almost like, at least it's having a dog in your life. Right. And I think the people who have lived with dogs find it very hard to live without a dog. And even people who tend to be hermits. Like, in Colorado, you have people live up in the mountains by themselves. But actually, I was looking into that almost none of them live by themselves. They live with a dog. So you're not living by yourself if you're living with a dog, you’re living with the perfect companion. That is true. And in the book, I know that you say, you know, you're not suggesting we rush out to fill that void, immediately. But when you've gone through the mourning process, and you're emotionally ready to open up your heart and home to a new dog, then that is fantastic. I love that you mentioned that. Yes, that's right. And I want to emphasize the best way to do that is to rescue a dog. Yes, I don't like the idea of using the word buy and dog together. I think you should find places that rescue dogs, dogs that need a home dogs that would otherwise not be with someone. And there are so many of those all around the world. Although right now, it may be difficult in COVID because everybody wants a dog. Yes, that is one of the good things that came out of this. Yes, this traumatic event worldwide. Well, Jeffrey, as we are wrapping up, what are some of the suggestions that you make as far as how best to heal once we've lost a dog? Well, I think it's important to talk to people about this to talk to people who are at least sympathetic, if not entirely like minded. So, you know, you might join some group online, you might go to a dog park, even if you're without a dog and just say Is there anyone here who has recently lost a dog I need to talk about this. I'm basically not a great fan, I used to be a psychoanalyst. I'm not a great fan of therapy any longer. But if there were a special kind of therapy that dealt with the death of pets, I would agree with it. I think that there should be people who specialize in helping you overcome this. And basically all it means is allowing you to talk about it because everybody who's lived with an animal and the animal is gone. They need to talk about that and you have to find somebody sympathetic. So sometimes it's a good idea to write you know, write down some of your fondest memories and share them with others, sometimes it means having even an anniversary, a birthday party, this is the day my dog left and invite people who knew the dog to share stories. Sometimes it means just going into the woods where you buried the ashes, and, and having some sort of communion. But I think we do need to memorialize this in some way that this has been important to us. And to think about it, and to read about it. I think there. As I said, there are now 70,000 books about dogs, some of them are really very good. I recommend that you read about them, because it'll remind you of the extraordinary qualities they have. I totally agree. And after reading your book, I think what I got from it, to summarize is that our dogs want us to enjoy life rather than mourn their loss, that they want us to cherish all of the wonderful memories that we have together, you know, when they were healthy, rather than thinking about their last days. So thank you for being here today. Thank you for this wonderful book, I highly encourage everybody to read about this, because we don't talk about it enough. Jeffrey, do you have any last words for us? Well, I was just thinking, as you said that the last word would be, I find that going into nature, going for a walk along the ocean, going into a woods, even just wandering around a neighborhood, as you used to do with your dog is something that you can do for the rest of your life. And it allows you that kind of meditative trance that you're often in, when you're with your dog and feeling that joy. That's something very important that we need to be out in nature. If you're lucky enough to have a dog that you can do it with wonderful. But if your dog is passed, go by yourself or go with a friend. And remember what it was like to be out into the real world. That's so important. That is perfect advice. Jeffrey, where can everyone find out more information about you and all of your wonderful books? That's not so easy to say. I do have a website, but I'm not very savvy about what to put on it. So it may be in decline. But if you go to if you just simply look on Google, I have lots of part. I have lots of podcasts. I've been on lots of shows. I was on Oprah once. So there and of course all my books are listed there. They're on Amazon. So it's fairly easy to find out lots about me online. Some of its controversial, especially about psychiatry, but when it comes to animals, I used to be controversial. Not any longer. Everyone agrees with me. You're a trendsetter. That's great. Well, Jeffrey, thank you for taking the time. And thanks for all that you do. Are you working on any new books right now? Well, you know, I just I just turned 80 a week ago. And I want to thank you, I want to write one last book called what's wrong with our species? But then I thought that's too negative. So I'm not sure. And my wife is a pediatrician, she, she deals with small children as a doctor, and I love helping her. It gives me great joy. And one of the things I always say to them as they come out, I say do you love dogs? And sometimes Yes, I do. But my parents won't let me have one. Look at the parents. And I say you really should get them a dog. So I think I'm doing some good by helping my wife. Fabulous. Great strongly. Oh, that's fantastic. Well, Jeffrey, thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate it and everybody. I encourage you to check out all 31 of Jeffrey's books. Jeffrey, thanks again. Thank you, Krista. It's been a great pleasure. You're wonderful to talk to. Thanks for Listening! Thanks so much for tuning in again this week. Have some feedback you’d like to share? Leave a note in the Bark About it section. Or you can click on the social media buttons to share an episode. Special thanks to Jeffrey for being on the show. Catch you next time! Also, don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO “The Wag Out Loud pawdcast is supported by listeners like you! The show started as a passion project that would help all of us make well-informed decisions for our dogs’ health and well-being. After many amazing guests, intriguing topics and incredible feedback, the WOL pawdcast is hitting a nerve. If you are interested in having your dog live healthier and longer and are finding value in this podcast, why not contribute to the show’s success? It would not be possible to consistently produce a quality show without the listener support that is received. 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