Happy Howl-i-days everyone! This is Krista with Episode #166 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Did you know that humans share about 85% of their DNA with dogs? Well, this fact makes dogs useful animals to study human disease processes. But researchers are particularly interested in specific diseases that affect both dogs and humans. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Billie Groom shares with us her experiences, knowledge and expertise gained from 34 years working with rescued dogs and the people who love them. She is an animal advocate, behaviorist, author, podcast host, and expert in Canine Cognitive Behavioral Therapy.  Billie is the creator of UPWARD Dogology, a scientifically proven methodology for addressing anxiety and aggression, and behaviors common in adopted, rescued, and adolescent dogs.   Welcome all dog lovers to a another fantastic Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today we're hearing from an amazing person that I couldn't wait to share with you all. We have Billie Groom, and she is on the topic of canine cognitive behavioral therapy. And it is just fascinating. She is about to blow your mind. So Billyie first of all, I want to thank you for being on the Show. And I'm going to ask you to please introduce yourself and fill us in on your fascination about this canine cognitive behavior therapy. Hi, Krista. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here too. We've known each other a while. And I'm super excited to be here. Thanks so much. Yes, I am an expert on canine cognitive behavioral therapy, which did not happen overnight by any means. I started about three and a half decades ago, somewhere around there, with the goal of working with adolescent dogs in particular, rescued ones, ones with unconventional paths, although that has developed into dogs that have had wonderful upbringings and puppyhoods as well, to just to learn about why that adolescent stage is so challenging and why a lot of dogs are surrendered and euthanized during that age. Why rescue organizations have a hard time homing those dogs are a lot of them are, are brought in and to shelters as well. So I worked with them. And over the time, I created and developed a formula that follows the principles and guidelines of cognitive behavioral therapy. Well, why don't we first of all, before we get started, because there's a lot of information that you have to share, what exactly is it if I was to meet you in an elevator and you're gonna give me your speech? What is canine cognitive behavioral therapy? What is Canine Cognitive Behavioral Therapy? Well, cognitive behavioral therapy is for humans as well. And it changes perception to change behavior, which doesn't make it a better method than any other method. Conditioning methods are designed operant conditioning is designed to teach. It's designed to encourage wanted behavior and discourage unwanted behavior. If you're using both sides of operant conditioning, counter conditioning uses associative techniques and desensitization to change behavior, which then changes perception. CBT changes perception to change behavior. So that's a long elevator ride. But what that really means is that the, the formula that you follow the principles are different. The reason it works well, in the adolescent stage is because they have preconceived thought patterns, whereas puppies you're teaching. It's designed to teach. That's why operant conditioning is so good with puppies. And in particular, you know, we'd like to stick with that positive reinforcement training, but I don't work with puppies. I work with adolescent dogs and adult dogs. So the reason you get this with the adolescent dogs. Do you want me to hop right into it? Yeah, let's talk about it. Okay, so we're out of the elevator here. Yeah. Very tall building. And we like to go up and down. So what happens in the adolescent stages, you there's that just that design of operant conditioning, where it's designed to teach. Dogs in the adolescent stage often know right from wrong, they know what you're trying to get them to do, and that's when you get pet parents saying, Oh, my dog knows Come when called, My dog is just deciding not to do it. This is like teenagers, human teenagers, so they know what they're supposed to do, but they have these excitable neurons just oh, I want to go. They're not thinking about consequences. They're thinking about themselves. They're thinking about how to get their own way how to have fun. Or if you have a dog from the street, that has learned that barking and lunging keeps dogs at bay or keeps people at bay, they're just going to do this because they've learned this. And so if you continue to use methods that are designed to teach, and to encourage and discourage, this can cause them to be frustrated, and cause them to think you don't understand why I'm doing this, you're not working with my brain. You're not connecting and communicating with me and some dogs, you can just continue to use non harmful forms of operant conditioning and positive reinforcement training all the way through adolescence. When I say adolescence, I'm talking about eight months to two years, you could use that all the way through, and it totally works. Absolutely. But a lot of times it doesn't. And that's purely based on the intent of the method. CBT is intended to change perception, which is not the same as changing emotions. We don't change emotions, dogs will feel the way they feel they have their emotions. But when they perceive their environment differently, they make different decisions. And they have a different perception, which changes their emotion, which changes their behavior. So when you have dogs in the adolescent stage, without getting too deep, actually, this is, as I've been going through my three decades, I've been learning more about CBT. So when I started working with dogs, I didn't learn CBT and then apply it to dogs. I actually learned from dogs, what worked with them, and then worked with veterinarians and psychologists who informed me that my method adhered to the principles of CBT. And so then I started to really study CBT. And then recently, I've taken a course, that was put on by Dr. Kathy Murphy, who runs Barking Brains. And is part of behavioral veterinarians, the course was, and it was a four week course. And it really got into the brain development of dogs in different stages. And for me, this was completely enlightening. It completely explained why CCBT is effective in the adolescent stage based on neurogenesis, brain development versus other methods. And a lot of it is, as I said, with operant conditioning, it's just simply the design or the principles and what they're intended to achieve. But with counter conditioning, it actually has to do with the brain development. So that's my dog in the background. I don't know if he's playing with his toys, throwing it around and trying to get himself comfy and play with his story. So what happens in the adolescent stage is you, you have these excitable neurons, but they haven't quite developed inhibitory neurons. So inhibitory neurons are ones where we stop think process before reacting. So we're thinking about consequences, those develop in early adulthood. So counter conditioning relies on associative techniques, and desensitization. So when you're using those, you need inhibitory neurons, they dramatically increase the effect of counter conditioning, which is why counter conditioning can be effective in adulthood, but not so much in the adolescent stage. What else is happening is you have your hippocampus, which is the part of the brain that is memory, long term memory, and it's connected to the amygdala, which is emotions in particular fear. So these two work together. And what happens in the adolescent stage is because there's a lack of the inhibitory neurons, the hippocampus is sending what's happening around it and quickly ascending to amygdala and I'm putting this in I'm not a neuroscientist, but this is what what is literally happening. So the amygdala is saying, Oh, no, you have to be fearful of this or you have to react without stopping and thinking. What canine CBT does is actually provides dogs with that ability to reset the brain, stop, think, process, and then make a decision. That decision is not they're not being told that decision, we're not telling them how to think that's different than providing option. So canine enrichment, for example, does reach the cognitive side of the brain as what CCBT is doing. We're reaching that cognitive side of the brain that develops in that adolescent time and they make decisions differently than they do when they’re a puppy. And so we need to harness those cognitive skills. Just like think of kids, you know, they start to think differently, and they question things and they, they start to want to make their own decisions. And, you know, you can provide options, like I said, which is what canine enrichment does blue ball, green ball or go through the hoop as opposed to the tunnel, things like that. Options are different than decisions. Decision, I'm not providing dogs with options, I'm providing them with the ability to make decisions. And they make better decisions when they stop and process and think. And those are the skills that we teach. And these are done through exercise driven skills. And these do not need to be done in the challenging situations when you get desensitization. desensitization involves what it is that is stimulating that behavior. So if it's a bike, you need to desensitize the dog to bikes by having bikes there. Now it might be done with bikes really far away, or bikes being ridden really slowly controlled so that you're not flooding, you know, you're not just going to go to like a bike path and flood the dog. So I get that it does work. But to desensitize dogs to what is triggering them, triggering the stimuli exactly. You need to have it there. Whereas with CCBT, you don't we're literally practicing resetting the brain, in all sorts of different situations. And so that dog gets used to doing that, that brain going in that direction, and, and thinking and so it's doing a little bit of what the inhibitory neurons do that haven't developed. But we're doing it through cognitive reaching that cognitive side of the brain, and that's when you get teenagers that just do things without thinking they know, they know i's wrong to steal dad's car, but they just do it. That's when you get, you know, it's like, Oh, it'll be fun, if I want to do it anyway. And do I care that I don't get my allowance this week. You know, dogs do the same thing. And you hear pet parents say that. You hear them say, Oh, my, my dog was good on one walk and not the next. And we went by this one fenced yard, but and it went well, but not the other and that and they're kind of trying to figure their dog out. But it's chaotic. That's all because of the brain development happening in that adolescent stage. Well, Billie, are you the only practitioner doing this? Because in the dog world, it's kind of unheard of this approach or methodology of thinking? Who Else Does This? Well, that's interesting because I think the mindset is definitely there, you hear a lot of trainers saying, you know, we need to, to recognize their emotions, we need to provide them with options and decisions. And we need to, you know, their mindset is that way, we need to use a more holistic approach. You hear this all the time, they need CCBT to do that. So I'm not saying they can't have that mindset. But the method, if they're sticking with conditioning methods, they're not intended to do that. So they would need canine CBT to do that. So I think the mindset is definitely going that way. What's happening is because the method isn't backing up that mindset, you're getting a lot of the industry leaders, just saying, Well, you know, you need patience, you need to cope. And that's because they're trying to get through that adolescent stage into adulthood, where those inhibitory neurons, and the connectivity between the hippocampus and the amygdala starts to work again, if they can have the patience to get through that and get to that stage, then a lot of the methods that they're using, will now hop into effectiveness and become effective. But if we can get CCBT, more known and just mainstream in that adolescent stage, it's going to save a lot of dogs, it's also going to save a lot of people from going to the dark side, right? So they go and they they're what they're doing isn't working, they're not sure what to do. So a lot of my clients who come to me they're using, you know, unsavory tools and maybe aversive methods, but they don't know what else to do. And within a couple of days, they're seeing progress with what what we do, I don't tell them, they can't use those. I provide them with skills that allow them to say, hey, I don't need those anymore. Well, Billie, we're gonna get into that. And I'm excited to do a deeper dive here on how you work with your clients. But before that, we are going to take a quick commercial break. So hold on tight, everybody. We'll be right back. Thanks to our friends at Walkee Paws for being our monthly sponsor.   Walkee Paws are the world’s first patented all-in-one dog boot leggings designed to be the “better bootie” and provide you and your dog worry-free walks. 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Walkee Paws are available in different sizes, colors and patterns…functional and fashionable.  And they also have indoor sock leggings, ideal for our senior dogs that need a little extra traction to prevent slipping on indoor floors.   It took my dog Winston just a few tries with his Walkee Paws, but got used to them and now enjoys romping in the snow all winter with clean and dry paws.     Order your dog some Walkee Paws today by going to https://walkeepaws.com/ and use the discount code WOL20 to receive 20% off of your order.   While you’re there, be sure to check out all of the stylish and functional Walkee Paws products.  Your dog will thank you! Welcome back, everybody. We are having a great chat with Billie Groom on canine cognitive behavioral therapy. And it's just so fascinating. And Billie, we all know that our dogs are smart. But I think this gives them the opportunity to “actually think”, you know, they're not just going through the motions. Oh yeah, I've done this before she wants me to sit. And I'm gonna get a treat, you know. So when we left off, you gave us a taster you of how you work with your clients. Can you tell us like one of your clients right now presents a dog with X behavior? How are you using CBT to address that behavior? How do you apply this with clients? Well, CBT has its own principles. And one of those is flexibility, adaptability, creativity. So there is a difference between teaching CBT as a formula. So my clients aren't learning the formula. They're just I'm adhering to the formula when I work with them. So the first session is always Zoom. I have a lot of clients that are virtual 100%, virtual all over the world. So we do Zoom and videos. And what we're doing in that first session is establishing those platforms skills, and those develop and change as we work through the program. And it requires applications. So they will apply those skills, which are different for them and their dog, depending on many factors, one being their lifestyle. So if a dog is in a shelter, versus in a foster home versus in a home that has a busy lifestyle versus retired people, we can adapt these platforms skills. Of course, it also depends on the behavior that we're addressing the age of the dog, the personality of the dog. But to learn the formula for trainers wanted to learn the formula on how they would do that. That's what I've laid out and what I've set out, so I actually adhere to that formula. When I'm working with my clients, I'm not teaching it to them. Got it, right. So they will then go and apply these exercises and based on the dog's change in behavior, and that could be interesting, smaller changes that my clients get back to me. They may not have anything to do with the behaviors that they called me about. But they can see their dog thinking and processing, making different decisions and changing behavior in other areas. And it's such a beautiful thing. They get back to me and I I totally think because it's hard to envision when it's just explained. And then when it's applied. And this is another principle of CBT. It requires application, which sounds silly because all methods require application. But literally the changes that occur because we're resetting that dog's brain and that's practice. It's like breaking a habit. Now, it's just not you might know it's wrong to smoke. But you literally have to have your brain practice all the time, not going for that cigarette. That's how CBT works. So it's repetition, not desensitization. But that repetition happens everywhere. And once that starts to happen, we go with it. We work with it in the direction that the dog is going and this is the formula that's created So I, you know, obviously I didn't invent CBT. But just like how Pavlov created a formula that adheres to conditioning methods for dogs. This is one for CBT. So getting back to your question on, am I the only one who knows it? And does it? Yes, because trainers are really ingrained into conditioning methods. And they automatically think, if you're not doing positive reinforcement training, you're doing something negative or wrong, or something that isn't scientifically proven. And that's not true. It is scientifically proven, and it is effective. It's just mainstream dog training doesn't currently teach it. So if it were part of mainstream, then one, it would be preventing a lot of people from going to the dark side, which would be great, because they just don't have to there's nothing negative with CBT, there's no negative reinforcements, there's no anything negative about it. The other is that it would greatly decrease the number of dogs in shelters going into shelters. So I have about 150 to 200 clients per year, through this entire, and this is where I'm seeing a an incredible decrease in surrenders. Because majority of my clients, 98% of my clients have had more than one positive reinforcement trainer, certified trainer, and they're good at what they do. They are they've taken lots of courses, and they're very educated. It's just simply the method. And they were told to either euthanize or surrender, and then they don't. So a lot of this problem that's happening now, with well, it's happening now as we're speaking, but when this podcast comes out, I'm assuming it still will be a problem with just the shelters and the rescue organizations are flooded, they're really seeing a lot and it's hard to home a lot of these dogs. So it would help a lot with that. You have some tips on when we do adopt a dog from a local rescue? What would you suggest we do with them? On how to get used to this whole new life and world? Versus conditioning methods? How would we use CBT? How to use CBT when bringing home a rescue? That's a good point. So one thing Yes, I do have a lot of clients who have had their dog from puppyhood, and have had great success with positive reinforcement training during puppyhood. And then they hit adolescence. And it's challenging. So they're not all started out with an unconventional beginning. But they just have to be in that adolescent stage for my method to be effective. But back to your question, yes, if they bring in a dog, often these dogs have been exposed to positive reinforcement training. So if they continue to use that the dog perceives them as not really understanding how they think and learn and perceive them. Oh, you're still doing that method, we need the dog to perceive the person as understanding them, understanding what's important to them, and understanding how to communicate with them. So in the first four days, some of these decompression suggestions are are challenging, because they, yes, we need the dog to be healthy. And yes, we need the dog to sleep depending on where they came from, and what their you know, if they came from a foster home, you know, as opposed to a 24 hour flight, there's a big difference there. But what we can do once they've slept, which very short time period, as soon as they get in a dog, we can just use basic commands on what's important to them. So if their brain starts thinking I want inside, I want outside, I want the leash on I want out the door, in the door, in the car out of the car during play time, incorporate maybe a reset and a release or a recall into those activities. Find out if the dog knows those commands, there's a good chance they do. If they just regress back to holding up a treat to getting a dog to sit. Yeah, the dog might do that. They’re not really reaching the cognitive side of the brain. So really does depend on the dog and what the dog knows. But it's important to find out what that dog knows, work with them communicate with them, there's a there's a good chance they know basic commands. And that can become a form of your language of your communication doesn't have to be taught in the same way that puppies so we want to teach it when that cognitive side is clicking in. The dog is already thinking about what they want to do, what they know what they like, and incorporate into that. So again, it's a little bit difficult on this podcast to give specific advice because it depends on the dog and it depends on what's important to the dog. But the main idea is that instead of getting set into our heads to tick the boxes, we're going to teach sit we're going to create train. We're going to do all these and tick the boxes. Yes, the dog is food motivated, yes, the dog is crate trained. Yes, it's more important to recognize what that dog is telling us and to use those opportunities to create that language and those platform exercises. And you've said it to me before, what CBT actually is, is more of a proactive approach versus a reactive, which is all the other training methodologies is how we're approaching it. Exactly. And you hear trainers say that a lot. We want proactive prevention, great conditioning methods, run on reactive reinforcements. That's how they're designed, it doesn't make them wrong. It just makes it, you know, trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. When you're trying to stick under that conditioning umbrella. Continue to use reinforcements. So that's when you'll hear, right, but I'm proactively getting the dog to sit using a reinforcement. Yes, you are. But it falls short is not the intention. It's just not what it's intended to do. I would love to teach CCBT on a larger scale teach it. I am speaking at the well by the time this comes out. I will have already spoken at the American Behavioral Society. Oh, good. Yeah. Conference, they have a conference in I'm trying to think I guess this is coming out late this year. So yes, sorry, I was trying to think it's just speak knowing that it's coming out later, I will have already spoken at this conference. And it's a lot of academia, a lot of universities that teach animal behavior. So the animal behavior conference, hopefully, that is a place that I would love to teach it because it is people that are teaching trainers and people that are going to become trainers, and they are interested in learning the formula as a whole, as opposed to teaching it individually to people, but to teach the formula as a whole. And then that's when it can make way more sense. Because to try and do it on a platform like this. Yes. Where you know, as opposed to starting at the beginning. And working your whole way through through the entirety, is really what needs to be done. I mean, that's why conditioning, when trainers go to learn conditioning methods, it's six or eight month programs, right? You're learning an entire methodology, like an entire formula. It's not something that you can just, you know, jump in the middle of and understand. But the point is exactly what you're saying it takes a completely different approach. And it's intended to do that. And that's why it's so effective with dogs in the adolescent stage. And that's why I was just featured in Psychology Today magazine as well, that was Marc Bekoff Ph.D. Congratulations Billie, that is amazing. Because it takes a psychology approach, even though that's not a canine magazine. It's based on psychology. And that's so important. Well, Billie as we are wrapping up, I'm sorry to cut you off. I know that there's so much more to learn on this. But as we're wrapping up, now we know what CBT is. What is cognitive dysfunction? When we hear that a dog has cognitive dysfunction. What does that mean? What is cognitive dysfunction? Well, it depends sometimes that's in the senior years, where their cognitive abilities decrease. So cognitive abilities, a lot are memory, just being able to associate being able to process being able to remember so humans in their older years lose their cognitive functions. And you want to keep those cognitive functions going. That's why we do crosswords. So we can stimulate cognitive skills. And we'll do that in the brains and veterinarians are very good with providing behavioral veterinarians are very good with providing advice on how to keep your senior dog cognitive skills going. And then there's also medication for that as well. In the adolescent stage, it's different. So their cognitive skills are clicking in in the sense that, for example, something like with a puppy, when you want to put a toy away, you can kind of throw a treat down a hallway and they'll go and run and get the treat. And by the time they come back, they kind of forget Oh, where did that toy, right? I forgot and the toy’s in the cupboard. But an adolescent dog either won't go got that toy because or the treat because they know the toys going in the cupboard. Or when they come back, it's like, no, I know you had that toy. And I'm pretty sure you put it in that cupboard because I heard the cupboard open and close. And my cognitive skills correlate that cupboard to opening and closing with that sound. So these cognitive skills are clicking in and they're starting to make decisions and choices based on having those cognitive skills click in and that's why we need to harness them. When we work with them. We can't just pretend they're not there. Same with children turning three to four. Right they start to think things differently and process and they say do I have to share? What happens if I don't Share the larger meaning of sharing. It's not just the action of taking crayons to somebody else and sharing them. It's the larger meaning of this is a good thing to do. And people are happy when I do it. But what if I don't do it? Do I want to share all my crayons? These are cognitive skills that are clicking in? And so that's why this example. Yeah. And so it's you see this happening in their brain. And that's, that's the difference. So there's two different answers to that dependency in your and I'm sure behavioral veterinarians that, again, that's I'm not a neuroscientist. I'm not a behavioral veterinarian, but that I'd love to work with them a lot more. I'd love to combine all our knowledge and skills and create a course, for trainers to learn with all that knowledge, because I keep learning more from these neuroscientists and these behavioral veterinarians on why my method is effective. But I have not made that collaboration and connection with them to work together to provide yet this course yet. Yeah, maybe by the time this has come out, right. Exactly happened. Right. Maybe that will of. Yeah. Well, Billie, this is just fascinating. And I thank you for being the pioneer in this area. So Billy has a lot more to share. She has her own podcast, she has written a book. So Billie, I'm sure we've piqued some interest here. So where can everybody find out more information about you and your company UPWARD Dogology? Contact Info Thank you. Yes. And thank you for this opportunity for sharing it. Krista. I really appreciate this. Website is https://www.upwarddogology.com/ . And my podcast is Dog Training Disrupted by UPWARD Dogology. And it's available on 11 platforms, and my book is on Amazon, you can just look upmy name. SOCIAL MEDIA https://www.instagram.com/upwarddogology/ https://www.facebook.com/upwarddogology/ Billie Groom | LinkedIn https://twitter.com/UDogology Wonderful. Well, all of this information will be in the show notes, of course, so people have easy access. Anything you want to leave us with today, Billie? Final Thoughts Just don't give up. It's not your fault. If what you're doing isn't working. Or if you're feeling like, you know, you're being told you don't have enough patience, or you're being told you're not. And you know, you need to cope and have patience. There are other solutions. And please express to those that you look to to the leaders in the industry, that you're hoping that they can help to provide more options that help dogs and help people who are helping dogs. I love that and in my little pea brain to clarify all that. Don't give up on yourself and don't give up on your dog. Yes, there. There are solutions were there for you. Thank you, Billie, I appreciate you being with us today. Thanks so much, Krista. And thanks, everyone, for listening. And I'm always, always here for questions and feedback and comments. Thank you so much. I want to again thank the team at Walkee Paws for sponsoring today’s episode and for making products that are both functional and stylish. Keep your dog’s paws healthy, clean and dry by ordering from https://walkeepaws.com/today. and don’t forget to use the promo code WOL20 for 20% off! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.