Josué Cardona 0:11Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network. here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona joined by Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:21Hey,

Josué Cardona 0:23and Link Keller,

Link Keller 0:24what’s up, Friends?

Josué Cardona 0:25What is up, everybody? It’s my turn to choose a topic this week. And ah, okay. That’s it. Let’s see, let’s see if we can follow along with where I’m going with this. Okay, so I’m gonna tell you story. A story. A long time ago, I forgot what was it 2017? maybe? a little game called the Breath of the Wild came out. It was it was amazing. It was so good. I loved it. So, so so much. I didn’t have a Nintendo Switch at the time. I was like, happened. I have a Wii U, I’m just gonna I’m just gonna play it on Wii U. And I played it and I beat the the four beasts. And then I, you know, all I had to do is get, you know, go to Hyrule Castle and defeat Ganon. And, and, but there were also lots of other things and Korok seeds and all that stuff. Anyway, so So then I don’t know why I didn’t get around to to go go to Ganon. And so when I got to switch, I, I decided that’s my favorite game. I’m just gonna start over, it’s fine. so then I play Breath of the Wild. And I beat the for the four beasts. And and yeah, I did not beat ganon again. There were a couple reasons for that. So fast forward to 2022. So five years later. And I decided, or a friend was playing the game. And I was like, oh, yeah, no, I’m, I’m like, for five years. I’m still saying I don’t know, but I’m gonna finish it soon. I’m gonna, you know, I’m still playing Breath of the Wild. And every now and then I go back. I go back, i got a motorcycle that has all this stuff. thing. And I think I played for a bit and I was thinking, what else do I need to do is like, oh, you know what? I didn’t do the trial of the sword. I do the trial of the sword, then. Then I’ll be stronger. And then then I’ll be ready to beat ganon. Right, then I’ll do it. And then maybe maybe that was last year, but earlier this year. 2022. I’m ready. I’m ready to play the game. And so a friend of mine is doing it. I’m like, This is it. I’m gonna I’m gonna finish it. I’m going to finish this game. Finally, stop this. This. This has to end, I need to finish this game. And I booted up and I immediately go oh, look, still trial of the sword. Maybe I should do that. Because then I’ll be ready. No, no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, let me let me not do this. I left that I finally beat the game. And I took like 15 minutes. Okay, well, I was I was strong enough. I was strong enough. But around that time that I decided I was reflecting upon why I have so many unfinished things like unfinished video games, unfinished projects, unfinished TV shows unfinished movies, like, I don’t know, there’s a lot of stuff that was unfinished. And I started thinking about how good it feels to complete something. And so it felt really really good to finish Breath of the Wild especially after all those years where it was kind of looming. And, and I started reflecting on other areas in my life anywhere I’ve I start things and I and I don’t finish them or for the reasons why so I want to talk about some of the reasons why I think I never finished Breath of the Wild until now. And some of the reasons why I haven’t finished other things and then some of the reasons why I haven’t finished other things in in my life. And and maybe the the benefits or the catharsis of actually finishing things. It’s it’s a lot I think it covers a lot of things, but it was that particular experience around Breath of the Wild and other geeky pursuits that made me reflect pretty hard on on how that’s a pattern in my life. Can either of you relate in any way?

Link Keller 4:43Yes.

Josué Cardona 4:44Yeah. In what way?

Link Keller 4:50I have been a consistently gets to the last area level dungeon, of a video game. And I stop a stop playing for a couple of weeks. And then I go, Man, I should really finish that and I go back. And because I haven’t played in several weeks, I’m not I’m not good at it immediately. And so I go ugh it’s too hard. And I stop and I never play it again. I have gotten better about that in more recent years, but definitely, like, early adulthood, my late teens, early 20s is is just a huge swath of almost finished games. It was very much a pattern for me. I think, majority of the time. The reason was, is that finishing the game meant that I was I was done with it. And I didn’t want to be done with it yet. And so I would be functionally done with it because I’d stopped playing with it. But emotionally I’m not done with it yet. It’s still there. And so I can hold on to it. And the experience isn’t over yet. I’m not ready to let go of it. So I don’t! very, yeah.

Josué Cardona 6:16That I mean, that is I think the main issue that I had with Breath of the Wild. I love that game so much that I could not bring myself to make it and

Link Keller 6:29I have still not beat Ganon in breath of the wild.

Lara Taylor 6:32I’m I still haven’t beat the camel in the desert. Because I can’t I just can’t can’t

Josué Cardona 6:40that was pretty hard.

Link Keller 6:42that was the hardest one

Josué Cardona 6:43that was the hardest one for me.

Lara Taylor 6:44I can’t Well, I was trying to do that one. And then I was like, You know what, I’m gonna go beat the other one, the whatever one what did i have to do? i had to beat, the bird. And I went did that and then I came back. I was like, I’m gonna beat this camel. Absolutely not. I just can’t, my hands will not let me do the thing I need to do and I know what I need to do. It’s just a matter of doing it. Which is a whole other thing in video games.

Josué Cardona 7:10Mine was the other issue. Like I could do it, but I didn’t know what I had to do. Once I figured it out.

Lara Taylor 7:14I will I will up that and I have never beaten a Legend of Zelda game.

Josué Cardona 7:21Never? none of them?

Lara Taylor 7:22Never. I have. I have watched someone beat Twilight Princess and watch someone beat ocarina of time. Technically, it was my copy of the game. So I guess maybe I beat it. But it was like a group play. But I’ve never beaten. I usually give up around the Water Temple. Yeah. But I am I am like, in the last couple years, I have beaten more video games than I have. Probably in the years before. I still have a lot of unfinished games. I don’t think it’s because I’m not ready. I think it’s because something I take long to finish a game. And something new and shiny comes out. And I really want to play that because I’m really excited about that thing. And I’ve been trying more and more to not do that. So,

Josué Cardona 8:14okay, so we’ve got I don’t want it to end we’ve got it’s, it’s just too hard. And I’m stuck. Right. And so so I couldn’t I could not advance

Lara Taylor 8:22or I’m taking my time and then something new comes along that I want. Yeah, mhmm

Josué Cardona 8:26yeah. Yeah. Which which could be, um,

Lara Taylor 8:29which I’m about to hit with horizon: Forbidden West and Tiny Tina’s wonderlands. Boom, boom.

Josué Cardona 8:37Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that could be two things. And not necessarily. They could both happen at the same time. But that’s

Lara Taylor 8:45two separate things. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 8:46No, but But it’s that shiny. Oh, something else more interesting. But also maybe like you got out of it what you wanted like

Lara Taylor 8:55there are some games. I don’t think I’m gonna go back to I don’t think I’m going to go back to I really love Red, Red, Red Dead Redemption 2. But I don’t think I’m going to go back to it.

Josué Cardona 9:04Yeah,

Lara Taylor 9:05the option is always there. But I’m not. Like I got what I needed out of it. It was really cool. But by now, I can’t remember all those sub menus and stuff for that game. Same reason I haven’t gone back to Hades. I’m finished Hades Because I’m scared to go back. Because my muscle memory is gone. And I’m not going to be able to get as far again, so I’ll just watch some videos and see how it ends.

Josué Cardona 9:32Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, okay, so all these are reasons, um, any any other examples or reasons why maybe, you know, upon reflection, there are some games that of course, we’re talking about games that have some kind of goal to achieve. That has not been achieved, because some some games don’t necessarily have a goal. You may have a goal, like I’m going to level up to this to this point, or I’m going to reach this tier, you know, or this ranking. And then and then I’m done. I just want to play all this. But not all games have like a story in a campaign that ends.

Lara Taylor 10:05I mean, you bring that up. And then I think about the fact that I told myself, I have beaten Chrono Trigger a bazillion times, but my goal was to get all of the characters leveled up to 99. That was what I was gonna do. And then I was gonna get all the endings. I have everyone, except for Magus leveled up to 99. And I was like, fuck it. I’m done. Because he’s the hardest one cuz you get him halfway through the game. So he’s the hardest one to level up. So tired of it? Let go of it.

Josué Cardona 10:44Yeah, okay. Okay. Okay.

Lara Taylor 10:46There’s another reason.

Josué Cardona 10:47Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 10:49When I was young, in middle school, I got really hung on to this idea of having to finish every book that I started. And I read, I read a lot of books. I still read a lot of books. But I got I got really hung on the idea of like, I have to finish every book, I start, I must finish. And I read. I don’t even remember what the series is called. There. It was this multi book fantasy series that had magic rocks, like, round, spherical gemstones that were magic. And they did characters were trying to collect them. Anyways, I read that I’ve forced myself through the first book, even though I wasn’t enjoying it. And then I was like, Well, it’s a series book. So I have to read the next one. And I got halfway through it. And I was like, This is so boring. I’m just I’m not, I’m not going to stop. I’m just going to put it to the side. I’m going to read this other book that I borrowed from the library, because it’s due soon, I’m just gonna step over here to this other. didn’t go back. Years later, four or five years later, I was like, What should I read? Oh, here’s a fantasy novel that doesn’t look familiar to me. I should read this. I start reading like, these magic rocks are kind of familiar. Huh, wait. And I realized this was that series that I was like, why I’m doing I’m doing it again.

Josué Cardona 12:23did you find it boring again?

Link Keller 12:24I found it boring again. And that was honestly that was the the thing that pushed me over into realizing like, Oh, I’ve read this before, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I’m getting bored at the same part. And that was like the first sort of like, okay, maybe I maybe I don’t need to, maybe I don’t need to finish it, I can just let it go. It’s not for me, that’s fine. And then I just, it sort of flipped a switch for me. Where I was like, it is okay to engage with a piece of media and decide that it’s not for me, and I’m not like, inherently a bad or lazy person. Because I decided, you know, I don’t want to finish it. I’m fine. That was like the beginning of that. I didn’t really internalize that until I was trying to read Lord of the Rings. And I made three attempts at that. Where I read halfway through fellowship with ring, and I was like, I’m bored and to read something else. And I was like, wait, no, Lord of the Rings. I love Lord of the Rings to read it. And I read all of fellowship, and I get halfway through two towers. And I’m like, I’m bored again. Okay. Third time start over from the beginning again, which is also part of my problem is that when I started just like I’ve stopped and it’s been like, oh, it’s been like 13 months. It’s like, well, obviously all of that memory is gone. I must begin from step one. You don’t you don’t need to do that.

Lara Taylor 13:53You don’t especially when like books are released, like years apart. Like are you gonna have to read all the Game of Thrones, the Song of Fire and Ice books again, when whenever George R R Martin I might I might at this point

Link Keller 14:08I mean, i probably will, but, I don’t feel the same drive that I did back then. I mean, you know, when I was young is like with the Harry Potter books. Every time a new Harry Potter book would come out, I would read from the beginning and read all of them again. Which when the seventh book came out and I never read Harry Potter again, which I still feel that’s a side story. We don’t need to go there anyways. It took me several years maybe even like a decade before being honest to really sort of internalize that idea of being like it is okay that I don’t finish everything that I start.

Josué Cardona 14:14Yeah,

Link Keller 14:15vis-à-vis media consumption. Taking that lesson and applying it to other things in my life has taken even longer. Getting there. I’m getting there. But yeah,

Josué Cardona 14:56there’s Yeah, yeah. So Okay, so I, I want to spend some time on this one because I think and I know a lot of people in in fandom communities I think struggle with this right they there’s like this rigidity that we that we, that we put on it like there are these rules. Like if I if I started it, I have to finish it or like I’m committed, you know, I watched the first episode. That’s it. I can’t I can’t stop now. Or I watched the season like, this season sucks, but you know, I got it, I gotta keep doing it. Or it is it is amazing to me when to see people complaining about a game. Or like, oh, 40 hours in like, how when will the sand I’m like, yo, you spent 40 hours on this thing that you don’t even like, because you have to reach the end. And of course, you don’t have to

Lara Taylor 15:52although sometimes with the game though. They bought the game for 60-70 bucks. They want to get something out of it.

Josué Cardona 16:03Yeah, but but that’s just a rationalization of this. Right? Like, that’s good, right? Like, we have different reasons, right? Like, what were some of the reasons why you have to finish a book that you mentioned, link, you were like you like if not I’m What do you say? You say I’m lazy? If not, I’m what

Link Keller 16:20I mean, that was that was a big part of it is like a feeling like oh, well, I, I said I’m doing air quotes, I said I was gonna do it by checking it out of the library. I was I was making an agreement with the library that I would read this book to completion.

Josué Cardona 16:37Right

Link Keller 16:38no I was, no I didn’t, the library didn’t care.

Lara Taylor 16:41they don’t care. unless it’s an assignment for class. they don’t care

Link Keller 16:45Now, now that we’re talking about it, I think specifically books, it is tied to being in elementary school and the summer reading challenges. And it’s like, I have to finish the book, so that I can put the book on the list so that I get the points for reading that book, so that I get the pizza party or the sticker book or whatever prize they were giving out. And so it’s like,

Lara Taylor 17:10incentives work, people

Link Keller 17:13if people see me with the book, then they’re, they’re gonna assume that I read the whole thing. So I have to read the whole thing. So that I meet that unspoken expectation that I’m projecting on to other people.

Josué Cardona 17:27Right? I have to.

Link Keller 17:28also also very much a being a voracious reader as a as a kid, it was very much tied into my identity. And so the idea of like, not finishing the book is like, but I’m the book reader. Oh, who am I if I don’t finish this book, I’m not enjoying??

Lara Taylor 17:44But you could finish the book and then have or not finished the book and get a new book

Link Keller 17:49I could start a book that I like!

Lara Taylor 17:50that you like more or start another one

Link Keller 17:52There are more books that exist that I will ever be able to read in my lifetime. Why am I wasting it on things I’m not enjoying? That was the big switch was like, Oh, yeah. I’m, I only get so many things to read based on the length of my life.

Lara Taylor 18:11infinite time

Josué Cardona 18:13Again, right, like the switch, it’s like, oh,

Link Keller 18:17I’m doing that thing again.

Josué Cardona 18:19Yo, the same book,

Link Keller 18:20the same book!

Josué Cardona 18:22Hmm. Is this is this okay? Yeah, again, rationalization, right? It’s like I have to these rules. Same thing with with the but I spent $60 on it. Like I have to, I have to get the stuff out of it. Question. Have, have either of you ever sat through an entire movie at a movie theater? That wasn’t good? Because like, Well, I’m here. I came all the way here. I know. Have you ever gotten up in the middle of a movie and been like, No,

Lara Taylor 18:53I’ve never I’ve never gotten up in a in a movie theater. I have, however, turned off a movie at home after five or 10 minutes, even after renting it. I think there’s a social piece there. Right? Like getting up in the middle of a movie and leaving, people will know I left. I don’t know if I was thinking that. But probably where my mind went. What like thing? Yeah, the Avatar The Last Airbender movie. I turn that shit off after 10 minutes. I was like, fuck that. They can’t say their names, right? I’m done.

Josué Cardona 19:24Yeah, I mean, there’s there’s definitely way less of a like sunk cost fallacy when you’re at home and it’s on Netflix. And you’re like, oh, you know, I’ll switch it up. I’ll change it. Versus like, I drove all the way here. We bought popcorn. We’re sitting to just like, Oh, I gotta walk over eight people

Lara Taylor 19:42we waited for half an hour or an hour to get good seats and all these theater.

Josué Cardona 19:46Yes. All these commercials. What else are we going to do? You know, like there’s all these reasons that why you would sit there and suffer or, or just, I don’t know, fall asleep. You know. I fall asleep in the movie theater. I’ve walked out of one movie and I can’t remember which one it was. I really can’t remember.

Lara Taylor 20:00I think I remember you walking out of a movie and complaining because of like the projector.

Link Keller 20:12I remember you telling a story about like,

Josué Cardona 20:15Ah, I mean, I’ve definitely, I’ve definitely, I get up and I complain, I’m like, Look, the sound is like three microseconds out of sync, or like, the colors wrong or something. I will definitely do that. But maybe that’s the reason. Yeah. But But, but that’s actually a good, also a good example. It’s like, oh, well, I’m already here. So you know, I’ll sit through this uncomfortable experience, you know, when, like, you don’t, you don’t have to right. So I’m glad we touched on this piece of it. Because so many times we, we, we, we look at these things. And for whatever reason, I love the identity piece, I love the the cost of it, the social piece, all those things, and then we we kind of, we suffer through it, even though even though we’re not enjoying it, when it’s when it’s, especially if there’s the expectation that we’re going to enjoy it, then we just kind of keep pushing through. And of course, there are extreme versions of this right of the people who have to like for like, don’t have to, but in their minds, I have to collect every single thing like I have to 100% a game, or I have to read all 17 books.

Link Keller 21:23People have to read the book before they go and see the film adaptation.

Josué Cardona 21:29Yeah, yeah,

Link Keller 21:29that one always makes me laugh because I’m like, you know, you’re just ruining the experience for yourself. Right? Like, you know, you know, right at this point, you’re just diminishing your enjoyment. And they’re like, but I gotta,

Josué Cardona 21:43but that’s interesting, because some for some people. That’s not that’s not necessarily true, right? But I’m sure there, of course, there are people who do if that’s your rule, and you’re and you’re going through it, and you are ruining the movie, like, why do you why do you keep doing this? Who, who made this, who’s forcing you to, to go through this and continue with this with this role? So there’s kind of the the flip side of this, which is kind of the first example that I that I started with for Breath of the Wild, was, I didn’t finish it, so What does that say about me? Right? That’s kind of the thing that I was struggling with. It’s like, oh, wait a minute. What kind of a What kind of an anime fan? Am I if I didn’t watch every episode? Or what kind of, you know, reader? Am I if I didn’t finish the book? What kind of fan of this genre? Am I if I didn’t finish the series, or watch every season? would flip the switch for me? Because I was very much no and and oh, a lot of that was for because of Geek Therapy. I was like no, like I, I have to be. I’m the guy who watches all the things. I’m the one who knows about this stuff. I’m the one who gets the references. I can’t skip. I can’t not watch it right? And so I put so much pressure on myself. And it wasn’t until I was forced, or like, not forced, but like what I literally did not have access to to to anything. Which was during Hurricane Maria. Like after that for three months, I literally had no access. So three months later, when I finally re entered civilization. And I was like, okay, for three months, I’ve fallen behind. And it was so overwhelming. Like, that’s when I started doing some math and I was like, I I would not have time to do anything else. If I were going to catch up on every show. I was reading everything I missed out on all the games, just to get current, not to mention to keep doing it. And it was like that’s when that switch hit for me. It was like wait, wait, wait I don’t have to. I also don’t have to like watch the whole thing or watch every episode. And I started experimenting with things like what I just read the Wikipedia article, or what if I skip episodes? I started skipping episodes, especially and which was I’ll tell you which series really did it for me. I think it was Luke Cage on Netflix. Right? That’s one of those things where like, like, Marvel is ridiculous, right? Like at this point, there’s too much and there was a time when there were 5-6 Netflix shows instead of the Marvel Universe. I felt an obligation and I did not enjoy locate Luke Cage Season One fantastic Luke Cage season two. I did not I did not enjoy. I think I watched the first two episodes and then I watched the last one. And I was fine. I didn’t die the world didn’t explode. It was it was it was amazing. All the horrible things that deep down inside I thought would happen. None of them happened

Link Keller 24:53somebody was gonna come and revoke your geek card because oh you didn’t watch every episode? oof

Josué Cardona 25:00Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s also like, even practice what you preach kind of thing because I’ve, I’ve always said, like, look, I don’t expect everyone to be able to watch and do all the things. And I would talk about, like, all the different ways you can, you know, just engage with material without actually having to consume it from beginning to end. You don’t have to be an expert, but I wouldn’t do it like, like that was for other people, not for me. Now I’ll do things like I’ll, I’ll watch a playthrough of a game. Just watch. Like, I’m not even playing the game. like Yeah, that’s, that’s fine. I’ll just, I’ll just do that. And there’s all these different versions, but that’s how I got free of that to to, to an extent. But then there’s, there’s Yeah, yeah. That was that was my that that was that was a big one for me. Lara, What are you thinking?

Lara Taylor 25:49I was thinking. It’s just I’m I mean, for me, I will give up on a show and not finish it for a while, but I give it like, I will give it a good go. Like I don’t expect one episode to be what a show is right? Especially in the beginning. So usually, same thing with comics, I usually give it like three episodes or three issues.

Link Keller 26:13That’s very fair of you.

Lara Taylor 26:16It depends. It depends, especially if it’s an artist or a writer or like a book I was really looking forward to in the beginning like I I know that it takes a while for sometimes for things to hit their stride. As far as gains, I used to be a completionist I still am a completionist at heart. If I have time, I want to go do all the quests I want to do I do all the side. I still do side quests, and then main story quests. But I don’t have to do all the little side events like in Assassin’s Creed I didn’t Valhalla if I tried to do that. I never would have finished the game. And oh my god, am I glad I finished the game. It is so wonderful.

Josué Cardona 27:03I was about to say something like Like, like, even red dead that or Witcher three or Valhalla. It’s like that’s, that’s a long time.

Lara Taylor 27:12Well, and Witcher three I mean, Josué you and I had this conversation, I got Witcher three because I watched the Witcher and I was really excited. I wanted to play. And I got through most of the intro I got through, I think all the intro part. And then the world map opened up more. And I was like, fuck, I can’t play this game. It’s too much it caused me anxiety.

Josué Cardona 27:31Because

Lara Taylor 27:32I needed something more on rails, even though I love open world games. I love it.

Josué Cardona 27:36But that’s so funny, right? Because it caused you anxiety because that’s because if you start down that path, right?

Lara Taylor 27:44And I’m like, Oh, I have to go do all these things and all these things, and I got it.

Josué Cardona 27:50Too much of the good thing that I like that’s too much of it. I don’t think I should go here.

Lara Taylor 27:54And for that same reason. I don’t do DLC a lot of the time. I think I kind of want to go back and do some of the Valhalla DLC because I really enjoyed that game Vikings. Lesbians

Link Keller 28:06made for you

Lara Taylor 28:08made for me.

Josué Cardona 28:09does odyssey crossover?

Lara Taylor 28:11mhmm

Josué Cardona 28:11yeah yeah

Lara Taylor 28:13I need I need some of that in my life. Maybe. But,

Link Keller 28:16maybe.

Lara Taylor 28:18But I used to. I used to hate the fact that DLC was a thing because it was like, oh, now I’m gonna have to go buy that and I’m gonna have to finish it. And I have to, and I just don’t for the most part. Do DLC. Unless somebody suggests like, you really need to do this, because the story is really cool. And I think you’d like it.

Josué Cardona 28:39Yeah. Alright, so then. So the example I gave at the beginning also address a lot of this, but it also addresses this fact that I did want to finish it though, like, like, there’s a moment of realization where you like you don’t have to, but there are still some things that it’s like, I’m still looking forward to it, right, like, in the case of Zelda for all of us, apparently. Like, it’s still it’s still on my list to do I definitely want to do it. And Lara, you just mentioned that like, Valhalla was amazing, then you know that you got to finish it, you’re glad that you were able to do that. So So I there’s a lot of things that fall into that category where I’m like, I’m I want to finish them still. And in my mind, there’s I don’t I don’t know how much of it is still all of the stuff that we mentioned before where it’s that sense of obligation where it’s like, you know, what does it mean if I never finish it so you know, if anybody asked themselves still in the middle of it, you know, because Because kind of I’m still committed to it even though I’m not actively doing it because if I do get the chance I will do right and so for for years my my what is probably my favorite game was looming over me that way. And and I think I think the switch flip Part was was made that somewhat easier. I was like, I don’t have to. I didn’t feel obligation. But I still wanted to.

Lara Taylor 30:09Well, you want to? You want to know what happens. You

Josué Cardona 30:12i wanna know what happens Yeah,

Lara Taylor 30:14you want that feeling of finished something. The drive for me to go back and finish when I that I did not actually do because stupid sand surfing was when they announce the sequel. I was like, oh, I need to finish this. Because if I don’t remember to finish it, now I’m not gonna they’re gonna catch me off guard, and they’re gonna release the sequel. And I’m not gonna know what happened. And I’m gonna get spoilers.

Josué Cardona 30:47This is literally why I downloaded horizon. Last very recently,

Link Keller 30:55Horizon Zero Dawn is on is on my list of games that I got to very close to the end and did not finish.

Josué Cardona 31:05interesting

Lara Taylor 31:06I got very close to the end, I thought I had only gotten about halfway through the game. I was literally like an hour or two away from the end of the game, went back and finished it. And I was very glad that when I upgraded to the the complete version that came with the DLC for

Josué Cardona 31:24where it expanded the map,

Lara Taylor 31:26where it expanded the map, but it wasn’t a huge expansion, expand the map. And I never finished the DLC, and I probably won’t. But I was so glad that I didn’t have to start from the beginning because I thought I was going to have to, but my, my data ported over and it was so nice.

Josué Cardona 31:44So okay, so there’s, you said, you want to know what happens at the end. And there are moments, there are things where I’m just like, look, just tell me, just tell me what happened in the last episode, or just tell me what happened at the end, right? Because I do because the thing is I want but there’s something about certain games especially like I think this this experience, I’ve actually seen Jessica finish

Lara Taylor 32:08horizon zero dawn

Josué Cardona 32:09Horizon Zero Dawn, because she did it for on Twitch on the GT channel. And, and I watched her play most of that game. And, and I watched her finish it on like the hardest difficulty too It was very impressive.

Lara Taylor 32:24i watched that too

Josué Cardona 32:24Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s very entertaining to like, I know how it ends, but I didn’t do it. Like, I didn’t have the experience. It’s different. Like, it’s still part of me that wants to. There’s something about certain games and even certain movies. And like, I don’t know, like earlier today, I listened to an abstract of a book, right? And it’s like, okay, yeah, I got the general ideas, but like, I still want to read the book, because it’s still a different experience. Same thing with movies, like I can watch a summary, but I can I can, there’s something about doing it. Sometimes you still want to. And again, there’s I think there’s a big difference. And one is healthier than the other, that you want to do something for just the sake of like, doing it. I don’t know, that depends on there’s a spectrum here, there’s a conversation to have, right? Versus like, I have to do this. And it’s it’s, it’s, it’s Hold on, it’s got a hold over me or something. So what when I went back and I, I beat Breath of the Wild, which is something I was looking forward to. And maybe Trent, you know, changes from something, I had to do something that I I wanted to do. And along the way, it was like something that maybe I’m I can’t do. I think that’s a part of it, too. Not only just like, it was too difficult. But also I felt like emotionally I couldn’t. Because it meant it meant that it would end. And I I was I did not want to feel that loss. It felt like I was still tied to it. So there were all these things tied to it. And then when I finished it the sense of the satisfaction of of completing something. Finishing something was very, very good. Like it felt it felt really, really, really good. I’m curious, do you have anything like that where where there was there was something that you wanted to, to finish and was like holding off or maybe saving it for a particular moment? Any examples like that.

Link Keller 34:30Yes. My example is also legend, Zelda Windwaker which I started when I was a kid. And I would spend my summers in North Carolina with my mom and my brother and they had a GameCube and so I started it and I played through the first half of the game up to the point where the the Tower of the Gods rises out of the ocean. And then I had to go home

Josué Cardona 35:01that game is so epic.

Link Keller 35:02and

Lara Taylor 35:04another one I want to go back and revisit.

Link Keller 35:06Yeah, I mean, I had done that the whole life playing through half of the game over the summer. And then going back home to California, I did with ocarina of time, three, four times. And then when I finally I got the in 64, I did it to myself again, like two or three more times. That’s another game, I haven’t technically finished,

Josué Cardona 35:27wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So, so it’s like you started, you started Ocarina of Time over and over again, is what you’re saying? Okay. Okay.

Link Keller 35:36So that that goes back to what I was saying earlier, where it’s like, a certain amount of time had passed, in this case, about a year because I was only there for, you know, six, seven weeks in the summer. And so it’s like, if, if my save was still on the game, which was not a guarantee, I would still be like, I want to, I want to start over from the beginning. But my brother also deleted my game at one point which GG Andrew

Lara Taylor 36:07my nephew deleted my game of ocarina of time

Link Keller 36:11a special kind of betrayal right there. But, uh, with Windwaker, I did not end up getting a Gamecube of my own at any point. And so like, I never ever went back and got past that point. When the HD version came out on Wii U, I got it. And I finally I was like, I’m gonna play this game. And I sat down and I played through, up to the point of to the Tower of the Gods coming out, I was like, look at me I’m doing it! And then I sort of petered off on it for a little while. And I was like, you know, what I really want, I want to finish this game. And so I convinced myself to not completely restart over, I was just gonna start from where I was, if I was a little lost and confused, I would just look up a walkthrough on IGN, it’s fine. And I got very close to the end, and I sort of started to do my slow down, and I was like, Oh, God, I’m gonna do I’m doing it again. And I had friends visiting me at the time. And my friend, Joseph, Windwaker, is one of his favorite games. And so he’s like, I want to watch you play this game. And I was like, This is it. This is how I’m going to actually complete this is with the support of my peers, and also them being like, sit down and actually play it. And finishing it, and stabbing my sword. into ganon’s head!!

Josué Cardona 37:40stop stop

Link Keller 37:41and turning into stone!!

Josué Cardona 37:44don’t say!!

Link Keller 37:44it’s so cool. And I felt so good and powerful and, like, puffed up, like I was so proud of myself that

Josué Cardona 37:54that’s the best ending

Link Keller 37:54Now it’s probably only the like, second time I actually completed a Zelda game. So this I was like, this is fun and fresh for me. But yeah, the my sense of accomplishment at finishing that was like, huge, and a big part of it was like, internal or my own thing. But another part is I had literally three four friends sitting you know, on the bed behind me cheering as I finished this game. And as the credits are rolling, they’re like, You did it yeah!! and that was great. It was that was a very big sense of accomplishment from from completing Windwaker for sure. Beautiful game.

Josué Cardona 38:37that was. Yeah, for me, for me, Breath of the Wild was similar because my friend started playing and I’m like, hyping up the game. And she’s telling me about parts where she’s at and, and, and things were, you know, the camel and all that.

Lara Taylor 38:52the fucking camel

Josué Cardona 38:53And she’s go through it, and I’m like, I’m vicariously living it through her. And then when she got to the point, she was like, Oh, I’m ready to fight ganon. And I was like, whoa, wait, what you you’re caught up.

Lara Taylor 39:04She passed you. She lapped you.

Josué Cardona 39:07Yeah, I was like what you caught up to? Well, I mean, I stopped there twice. Right? And oh, no asking questions like how many hearts do you have? And like, like, no, she’s like sad, right? She’s good to go. And then when she said I’m I’m gonna do it today. I was like, wait now now I’ve been left behind. And so I did it because then I felt like we can’t talk about anymore like we’ve talked about the rest of the game it was it was it was something we were doing together. I don’t I don’t want to miss this last part right like there’s like there was that extra piece of motivation it’s it’s very similar and we weren’t in the same room but like we were immediately able to talk about how we felt about the the finale and the last battle and all of that. And that social piece made it definitely made it a lot better too Yeah, yeah, damn.

Lara Taylor 39:57I need someone to beat this damn camel thing for me.

Josué Cardona 40:00i know i know

Lara Taylor 40:01and I could probably do the rest of it is just that stupid surfing thing

Link Keller 40:07from what I’ve heard. Having not gone to fight Ganon in Breath of the Wild, the Ganon fight is easier than the camel

Josué Cardona 40:15way easier it’s the easiest boss battle in the game, yeah. That but actually, I mean, it’s funny because there are versions of this that we have done. Lara, I think we’ve completed a couple of games together. And and probably Borderlands three is like one of the funniest ones right where we where we go over and over and over again because we started over and we play with Nina that we play with Jessica though we start over

Lara Taylor 40:41Borderlands Borderlands 2

Josué Cardona 40:43two is the one!

Lara Taylor 40:44is one that took me six years to finish

Josué Cardona 40:47of course, we talked about that here. Yes, yeah, I

Lara Taylor 40:50got I was playing my roommate, Nick. He convinced me to play this game. And I was like, Hey, I don’t know. And I had gotten like a little motion sick from it. I finally figured out the settings we play through to this point. And then he kind of dropped off and I was stuck playing and I’m like, I can’t beat this part by myself. And no, I was on my PC. Nobody would play with me. So then all of a sudden Josué and I can’t remember I think it was Carl decide they want to play the handsome collection. Get that on the on the ps4. So what do I do? I order that same day on Amazon, get it? Start playing. And then they drop off by the time I get to the same spot that I got stuck. So I was there doing nothing. And eventually I beat it. Six years later,

Josué Cardona 41:46we did it. We did it together though.

Lara Taylor 41:47we did it together. We did it together.

Josué Cardona 41:49Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we did. But yeah, a long journey. A

Lara Taylor 41:52it was a long journey. But I did that because I wanted to finish it. And the pre sequel. Which I don’t maybe I didn’t finish the pre sequel

Josué Cardona 42:00we’ve never we never i didn’t finish it

Lara Taylor 42:01know i have i have the last but no, I did. I did finish the pre sequel either that or I haven’t done the last battle. Before I wanted to do that before Borderlands three.

Josué Cardona 42:10Yeah. But so so how did it feel to finish Borderlands two?

Lara Taylor 42:14Amazing. I was like finally, finally. I’m done with this thing. And that last battle. It was just you and me Josué and it was like, pulling teeth to get that thing done like it was? Even though you were OP.

Josué Cardona 42:30Yeah,

Link Keller 42:31your sense of accomplishment gets all mixed up in that relief of this is finally fucking done. And I can never think of it like I can just let it drain out of my brain.

Josué Cardona 42:41Yeah, like, were you feeling both of like,

Lara Taylor 42:44probably probably, like, there was like, finally, finally, I can put this away. And then and then like, but it was great to finally finish it and do it with a friend. Right? We got to have that excitement. And then when we finally finished Borderlands three, finally finished Borderlands three that was and that didn’t take us that only took us like a year and a half.

Link Keller 43:09Basically speed running.

Josué Cardona 43:11We did start of ps4 then finished on PS five. This is true.

Lara Taylor 43:15Basically, well, and I think about it the reason that we were getting through Borderlands two and you finally were like, Let’s lara we have to help you get this through this because you wanted to play Tiny Tina assault on Dragon Keep again with me? Yeah. Yeah. I think as you were like, that’s the most Geek Therapy thing ever. And it is

Josué Cardona 43:35friends friends

Lara Taylor 43:36Now we’re getting a whole game

Josué Cardona 43:38friends. Don’t let friends not play tiny tina DLC.

Lara Taylor 43:42i need to go do that with friends?

Josué Cardona 43:44Yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 43:46I owe them.

Josué Cardona 43:46So for me, this was also a very social aspect, right? It was like, with my friends, and otherwise, I wouldn’t have finished it. So it’s making me think about all these other things that I want to finish. Right? And that I that maybe maybe I haven’t. And there’s different reasons why I haven’t finished them. And, and, and I would still like to, but it’s making me think that like, I don’t know, the power of friendship might be the way to get some of these things done. I mean, as I’m reflecting on it, there’s a lot of GT stuff that is kind of hanging for a number of reasons. Some of the reasons we’ve touched on before. Some of them, it got really hard all of a sudden, and so I took a break. Some of it was I didn’t have the time, lots of times it’s something shinier came along and so I didn’t finish the thing. And I think that there are some GT projects that will never see the light of day because we’ll never end up going back to them. That’s just that’s just the way the way it is, you know, going with what we’re talking about here, but there are others things that are that are slowly happening. But it’s because we have other people here who are who are doing it who have either offered to help, or are helping and like, just providing that support has been, has been almost essential to do it. And I hadn’t thought about that when we started having this conversation, or I even brought up the topic, the idea that, that sometimes, you know, little help from your friends, is good, some support might be what is needed even, you know, so a part of it is obviously, it’s less lonely, to do it with friends, right? Like sometimes I didn’t, I didn’t think. And I don’t know, if you thought of the end of windwaker that way. It’s not like, I don’t want to do it alone. But at least consciously, I didn’t think of that. There’s, this is, this has gone in so many other directions. I’m, I’m remembering an Ocarina of Time. I, I knew that the moment you know, there was going to be that moment where I would pull the Master Sword. And, and travel through time. And I was so excited about that. I remember, I asked my mom to sit with me. And, and, and, and watch it. My mom never played the game. She had no idea what it was. But there was something about how excited I was about about that, that I did not want to do it alone. And that was a very conscious act like mom, like I’m about to do this thing. Okay. I don’t know, it was like, so overwhelming. And I wanted to share it with somebody. And but I think there’s definitely an unconscious piece of it, that at the very least, it’s just preferable to not do it alone. You know, like, I’m doing it, it’s great. And sometimes that’s enough. But maybe sometimes that’s not enough. But it’s definitely a tactic to, to get things done is to is to have a partner to do it with, or a whole group of friends cheering you on. That that’s probably a good idea.

Lara Taylor 47:16I mean, it is a good idea. Body doubling is a thing, being able to have somebody with you to do a thing at CASTT gamers we had kayla on last week. We have a channel on our Discord server for co working and people could just pop in and do work together in like relative quiet, but we’re hanging out with each other doing work. And a lot of people find that really helpful.

Josué Cardona 47:46Yeah,

Lara Taylor 47:46I mean, I like to play games on my own. I like to have that experience of doing the thing on my own. But when I finish a game, I don’t necessarily want to be left alone with those feelings. Most games that I have beaten in the last few years have been ones that like rocked me because of the feelings that came up. And so I’ve been lucky to have Nina home most of the time. And so when I finish a game, I can go into the other room be like me, nina i need a hug, this thing happened in the game.

Josué Cardona 48:20You know what I hate? And I hate that feeling of just having an experience, right? Well, whatever it is, but let’s assume that you finish a movie or a book or a game. And then you don’t have anybody to share it with. Right? Since this is like sometimes what will run to the to the discord or hopefully, you know, you have a friend that you can text about about something like this, or I mean, ideally, you know, somebody can call or just look to the side and be like that was that was awesome. And I don’t know there is something really lonely about about at least I feel that way.

Link Keller 48:59I that. You just reminded me. Last year, I started and finished listening to a podcast horror series called the Magnus archives. And I was super into it. I thought it was so cool. And I was telling my friends I was like you guys should listen to this. And of my friends group. Some of them are not into horror, and some of them are not into listening to podcasts, and some are not into either of those things is like fewer and fewer people that I was like even had a chance of convincing them to listen to this thing. And no, nobody did. And I was just like, oh, this is a bummer. I started talking about it with Jessica the other day and

Lara Taylor 49:46I’m like that sounds like a Jessica thing

Link Keller 49:46I convinced her to start listening to it and she she has been so into it and talking to her about the first couple episodes. I was like I am enjoying this so much. I am going to relisten into this series and so we’ve been sort of you know Keeping up with each other going through this five, five season podcast together and it has been like as much as I loved it the first time it is even so much more fun now because I get to like have like, Oh, what do you think’s gonna happen? Like, I know what I know what’s gonna happen, but I love to hear Jessica’s theories and like, what do you think’s happening? And what details did you pick up on? Is making it so much more fun and enjoyable having that social element to it. it is very good.

Link Keller 49:48I think this episode is not I think I just had a realization as well. Like, I don’t think this episode was what I thought it was, like, this topic. I

Link Keller 50:19you thought it was about procrastination. But it turns out, it’s about having social ties.

Josué Cardona 50:42Apparently,

Link Keller 50:43what a twist!

Josué Cardona 50:44what a twist. And it’s funny, it wasn’t I wasn’t thinking about procrastination. I was thinking I was flipping it more in just the I mean, I guess it was about procrastination. And maybe it still is. But But I was thinking of it more in like, how do we… the effect that it can have on us right to have these things kind of lingering, and just hanging and then beating the villain checking the box, you know, the saving the princess like, all of these things, right? They’re like, Oh, we got to do this thing. And it’s, it’s waiting. But maybe, I mean, it’s not a realization for me that I much rather do things in community, or with or with someone else. Um, but I think I’m, I’m Yeah, I think I’m definitely enjoy things more. And I’m even more productive. When, when I have a partner and it’s like, it’s a great, the co working thing, right is is is something that I use a lot for accountability.

Lara Taylor 51:57Right,

Josué Cardona 51:58right. But also a lot, sometimes it’s just like, just having somebody there is enough to, to kind of, I don’t know, like, it depends on how you feel about it. Right? I’m moving forward. But it’s different than like a sense of completion, right? Because you could be co working and you’re just like, oh, there’s support and there’s accountability. But we’re not necessarily working on the same thing.

Lara Taylor 52:19Right

Josué Cardona 52:20It’s very different. When we’re talking about like, again, like that whole thing that you just explained. Like, like, for a year, like that was a year ago, you enjoyed it. But there was, but there was nobody to share it with. And still until there was like, it almost felt like unfinished. Right? It was like it was

Link Keller 52:37well and I had also like I started listening to the show, like, just as it was putting out its last couple of episodes. So if I had started, you know, closer, or when the show had first started coming out, other people would have gone on I would have I would have been on the subreddit, the Magnus archive subreddit, and I would have been, you know, guessing what I think is happening in the, you know, ideas, threads or whatever. But I didn’t have that community is so as I was just like, okay, but yeah, it definitely elevated my experience having it to share it, putting on my media psych hat, I think this is sort of indicative of like needs and gratifications theory is like whatever the piece of media is that you are consuming is like it is fulfilling some sort of need or want for you. That’s why you’re engaging with it, if you add in a social element is also fulfilling your social needs. And so that is literally like adding a fuckin multiplier onto it is like, you were gonna get the, you know, 100 points for completing the game. But because you did it with a friend, even if it wasn’t at the exact same time, you had it framed in your mind as a cooperative thing is like, Oh, we’re gonna finish it so we can talk about it together. It’s like, it’s like now it’s now it’s 10,000 points, because you’re doing it with somebody you care about. It’s like, mmmMM, that’s the good stuff.

Link Keller 52:39Like lara when you mentioned buying the Borderlands two, right? It’s like how many I’ve done this so many times. And lots of times when I’ll stop doing one thing and jump to another. It’s because of this

Lara Taylor 54:16because I say I’m playing a game or another friend says they’re playing a game and you’re like, oh, I need that.

Josué Cardona 54:21Or you’re watching this show. I’m gonna I’m gonna jump on that right like and now it’s on my list or this movie

Link Keller 54:25talking about it’s like oh, the new shiny thing comes as like it’s not just like novelty that it is new is because there’s also lots of people are talking about it right now is like I want to engage in that conversation. So I’m gonna pop on over to that game.

Lara Taylor 54:38Nina asks me all the time Why do you have to buy the game right when it comes out and not wait till it’s on sale in a couple months? And I’m like, because I want to have the conversation with people. And I don’t want I don’t want spoilers on things like I’m okay with small spoiler spoilers but like, major story things I don’t need spoiled but also like I Do I want? I want to, it’s not necessarily just hype. It’s like, I want to experience that with my friends and be like, oh, did you get to this part yet? Oh, that’s gonna be awesome. I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on that, you know. And it’s different when you’re like, so far apart on it.

Josué Cardona 55:20Yeah. And if the media is meaningful if the relationship is meaningful, right, like, even even with a year in between, or even, I don’t know, if anybody wants to watch one of my favorite things, like then I get to relive it and it becomes way more meaningful. Like,

Link Keller 55:36yeah,

Josué Cardona 55:37like, you asked me recently, like, why are you watching old? Like old movies about this? Or that? Or like five year old? I was like, I don’t know, because a friend mentioned it, just like now, like last week, or two weeks ago, right? you said, Oh, we’re gonna watch the shudder original. I was like, Well, I’m on shudder again, give me a recommendation. And I’ve gotten other people asking me like, why are you watching these movies on shudder?, because link recommended that. Like, I asked for recommendations, that that connection makes it I don’t I, this is probably true. I don’t know why I’m hesitating to about this realization, but I think, at least to me, and I don’t know if this is good or bad. But there are things that almost feel like they’re not even worth doing. If it doesn’t have that social component. And, and I think that that has been detrimental to me at times. But the positive feeling of sharing in stuff is so much it’s so elevated in comparison to to just enjoying something on my own even if it even if I love it. I think I would still go for to the for the communal version, just just to have that sharing. I wonder how often that that has been a reason for what I wasn’t thinking of as procrastination, right? Think of just like leaving things unfinished. How much of it was just like, I know, I guess, I guess, if I’m the only one here, I don’t want to do it anymore. Because with the exception of a lot of GT stuff, but I can’t think of anything that’s like, if I stopped doing something, it was just, it was mostly just personal, you know? And, and the whole idea of all finishing all of these things was very much like me, proving to myself that I could that I could do it. Okay, I think here’s the realization another realization is that it was like it was challenging for me because I would have to do them alone. And then, but I but I did it to kind of just show that it’s not as scary as you thought to get to the end and and be the only one there. Huh? Huh?

Lara Taylor 57:57Hmm

Josué Cardona 57:59Hmm Yeah. I can’t like yeah, I guess I guess the takeaway is a cure to procrastination is your support network? What else? What are the answers but see their answers? Questions. Final thoughts?

Link Keller 58:21It is okay to opt out of stuff you’re not enjoying. If you do want to finish it, and you’re finding some resistance. See if you can find a friend to join you. Mm hmm.

Josué Cardona 58:33Sounds like sounds like a good move. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Link Keller 58:39I thought I thought I remembered a TV show. I have I have not finished the last three episodes of The Expanse. I do intend on finishing them. But I haven’t.

Josué Cardona 58:50I finished the expanse. immediately texted Jessica cuz she’s she’s my expanse, buddy. And and like, I I had to wait to watch the last episode. I was like, a couple days behind. And I felt I felt I was like, aw, Jessica finished already. And I haven’t, I haven’t engaged. It’s good to have Yeah, it’s good to have someone to come along for the ride. And whether it’s good or bad, right? Because at least you can you can talk about it and reflect on it. But I but definitely, I think I had like seven different epiphanies when when when Lara said

Lara Taylor 59:33the social piece right?

Josué Cardona 59:35Um, yeah, yeah, that’s not the Yeah, that moment where you were you said like, I’m when you finished something. And then you you reached out to me and you’re like, I need I need a hug. Like, I need to process this

Lara Taylor 59:48and I’m saying goodbye to like, I do that with TV shows too. But usually the TV shows I watch with her but like, I’m saying goodbye to a friend basically the game or the the characters in the game. My friends and they’re leaving me. I don’t want it to be over.

Josué Cardona 1:00:04Yeah

Lara Taylor 1:00:05I need to share that with somebody. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 1:00:08Yeah. Huh. Yeah. And the other seven epiphanies I had were right. When link’s like, all my friends were there cheering me on and I finally. Yep. Okay, I see the pattern here. Okay. Okay. Okay. I see. I see this.

Lara Taylor 1:00:24We’ve well established that you are a social gaming person.

Josué Cardona 1:00:27I know. I know. I don’t know why this is coming in such a such an obvious. Such a such a realization right now. Huh. That’s it. That’s it. Yeah. Okay. Okay, this is helpful. I hope this is helpful for other people who are listening as well. Because I think there are a lot of different insights for from from each of our stories and different ways that we, again, how we’ve kind of like freed ourselves from that rigidity, and some of those rules and been able to enjoy things differently, like without without obligation, but then also how to when we do want to finish things, there’s there’s definitely plusses to power of friendship.

Link Keller 1:01:16the Power of friendship,

Josué Cardona 1:01:18power of friendship. Yep. Yep. All right, everyone. Thank you for listening. I think you’re joining us joining the conversation on our social spaces. In our community spaces. Links are in the show notes. Remember to geek out and do good. I’ll be back next week.

Link Keller 1:01:37mmmBuh bye.

Josué Cardona 1:01:40Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

• Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
• Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
• Horizon: Forbidden West
• Tiny Tina’s Wonderlands
• Red Dead Redemption 2
• Hades
• Chrono Trigger
• Lord of the Rings by J. R. R. Tolkien
• A Song of Ice and Fire series by G. R. R. Martin
• Harry Potter Series
• The Last Airbender (2021)
• Luke Cage (Netflix series)
• Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla
• The Witcher 3
• The Witcher (Netflix series)
• Horizon: Zero Dawn
• Legend of Zelda: Windwaker
• Borderlands 3
• Borderlands 2
• Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel
• Borderlands 2: Tiny Tina’s Assault on Dragon Keep
• The Magnus Archives (podcast series)
• The Expanse (Amazon series)

Conversation Topics:

* Sunk-cost Fallacy* Hurricane Maria* Expectations* Obligation* Consequences* Social Support* The Power of Friendship* Body Doubling* Spoilers* Feeling alone* Resilience

Relatable Experience:

* Being a Completionist* Accomplishment* Acceptance* Clarity/Understanding* Fear/Anxiety* Loss (other than death)

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq