Josué (00:01.444)Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. I am joined by Lara Taylor, Link Keller.

Lara (00:13.164)Hey.

Link (00:14.944)Hello.

Josué (00:16.62)And today’s Master of Ceremony topic picker and my favorite colonizer, Marc Cuiriz

Lara (00:28.77)Wow.

Link (00:29.349)This is how we’re going to start? Okay.

Marc (00:29.712)I… Wow, he just came out and straight attacked me like that. Oh my goodness. Okay.

Josué (00:36.348)Yep, yep, yep.

Lara (00:38.046)Now I know what kind of episode this is gonna be.

Josué (00:40.464)Mm-hmm.

Marc (00:42.206)You know, I actually take the time and actually read a book. And by read, I mean, listen to a book for the first time in years. And this is how he treats me. And it was a book that he was talking about reading.

Josué (00:46.62)Yeah.

Josué (00:54.716)Which book is that? Babel.

Marc (00:58.7)Babel You know, I don’t even know anymore.

Josué (01:02.224)It’s babel It’s babel. But in the book they call it babel, right? When you in the audiobook, when you heard it? No. You don’t. Okay.

Marc (01:08.837)I think… No, I think they said Babel. No, they didn’t. They said Babel. I’m thinking about it wrong. Yep, they said Babel.

Josué (01:17.841)Why do you want to talk about Babel

Marc (01:19.765)Oh my goodness. So there’s quite a bit and I had thoughts about it. And there’s two big things, two big things. Yeah, two main things that I really drove from it aside from just literary critiques. One was the idea of translation and how when oftentimes work, literary works or

Josué (01:29.288)Feelings?

Marc (01:49.673)things are being translated from one form of media or writing to another, a lot of the times the meaning behind the original piece can get misconstrued, misinterpreted, I can’t even form words anymore. There you go. Or, like, they just, the meaning gets lost altogether and it takes on a completely different form.

Lara (02:07.705)interpreted.

Marc (02:18.773)And so I wanted to kind of talk, yeah, which is like the main focal point of the whole entire book. So that’s something I wanted to talk about. And then the other big thing that the book kind of talks about and addresses is good old colonialism and how it’s bad. Don’t do it. Don’t colonize things anymore.

Josué (02:19.141)which is a big part of the book.

Josué (02:41.32)Okay, sounds good. Who are you speaking to in particular?

Marc (02:46.045)everybody. This is a side tangent just to just to already get out of the gate. So there was a TikTok that I came across a while ago. I think I sent it to you guys where it was this woman who talked about how the new American dream is to leave America and go to a small village in like

or in like Asia and just kind of immerse yourself into their culture, you learn their things, and you often find that, you know, how their systems are run are, at least to this particular

per TikToker that it benefited them. Like healthcare was more easily accessible, all these other things. And as I was listening to it, I was like, so the new American dream is colonization. That was my initial thought. I was like, so what you’re saying is we want to leave America because our conditions are not suitable for us because of all sorts of different factors.

and instead move to a rural town in a foreign country, utilize their resources for your own benefit.

Josué (04:15.208)make you feel.

Marc (04:16.681)I was like, it made me question, like, how is it that we’re not realizing that things are becoming, are coming around full circle again? Where we as a younger generation can highlight all these terrible things that have happened and how we want to put a stop to things, we want to make a change for it. And then we are essentially doing the same thing, but we’re changing. We’re…

changing the language of it. So to people, it has a different meaning.

Marc (04:54.157)which kind of ties both themes together. But that was like one thing that like stuck out to me. And so then reading Babel, that was like that theme of like, you know, utilizing the resources of other countries for the benefit of either yourself as an individual or in Babel’s case, it’s to benefit Great Britain.

Josué (05:20.924)Yeah. I mean, I get what you’re saying, right? The book, it’s very, it doesn’t, I mean, colonization is probably the central theme of the book. And it shows how the UK just is an oppressor of different countries. And then even though it’s kind of a, you know, it is historical fiction in this book, there’s a magic system and there’s all this other stuff.

but it’s based on a lot of truth. And there’s a difference between like going and joining a community versus going and exploiting its resources and its people. And in the case of the book, right, then using those same resources.

from those countries to train them to then continue to exploit the resources of the same countries and others. So yeah, I think there is a big difference between just like, oh, we’re coming over to join your community versus, yep, I’m just going to take advantage of everything you have. That’ll be great.

Lara (06:31.682)Let me take that healthcare and all the food that you have in the area and all of that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Very different. It’s different if you are going to also bring something to the community.

Josué (06:38.004)Mm-hmm. Just take it. Just take it.

Josué (06:46.64)Yeah, I mean, but that and that’s part of the argument, right? Like the colonizer will always think that they are contributing, that they’re doing some sort of good.

Lara (06:52.063)Oh.

Lara (06:57.73)Mm-hmm.

Josué (06:58.96)Yeah.

Marc (06:59.51)Mm-hmm. And I’m sure for a lot of people, this isn’t always the case, that if they do emigrate from America and they choose to reside in a different country, I’m sure there’s plenty of people out there that are contributing, that are doing what they can to actually try to integrate themselves into the community.

and try to be productive rather than just kind of utilizing their resources simply because it’s more accessible or it’s more affordable or whatever the reason might be. But I also think that for every person that is doing it with that, with those good intentions and that are able to actually carry out those intentions, there’s also just as many people that are using that as an excuse to go and exploit.

these different communities simply just because, you know, they can. And then they kind of like, then they’re able to kind of capitalize off of it by making, you know, either Tik Toks or other forms of social media posts, becoming an influencer and trying to promote this lifestyle. So they’re capitalizing and gaining from it without really contributing or, you know, doing anything.

that’s worth of value to that community.

Josué (08:26.352)Now, a colonizer mindset does not make necessarily a colonizer, I think, right? Like there’s, there’s a matter of like power and oppression and a whole bunch of other stuff that I think goes into, into that.

Marc (08:38.361)Mm-hmm.

Josué (08:43.068)But yeah, it’s just kind of disgusting to see those influencers and they’re like, oh, this is, for example, Puerto Rico gets it in multiple, in multiple ways, right? Like I was born there and Puerto Rico is, if you look it up, it’s considered one of the last colonies in the world. And the United States has a couple where

they don’t have the same rights as all the other American citizens in the country, which is pretty fucked up. And then, but then you also have, you can look up videos like here’s how to go and like live tax-free in, in Puerto Rico and like take advantage of all of these benefits that the actual residents of the island don’t get, but that you can get if you come in with that mentality of, we can call it exploitation for sure.

Yeah, it’s, uh, it’s frustrating.

Marc (09:46.389)Yeah, and like you said, like, yeah, and it’s like you said, where it’s not necessarily so much of like, the colonizer mindset doesn’t, you know, make a colonizer or, you know, anything like that. But I do think that it’s kind of a dangerous game that’s being played because it’s opening that door for potential further action to take place where it’s like, well,

Josué (09:48.068)and even at that scale.

Marc (10:16.049)so many people are, you know, moving to this particular country, let’s just try to work with them. And then, you know, then it’s like kind of strong arming or, you know, there’s all sorts of potential scenarios that could potentially play out that could then create or recreate colonization and that colonizer mentality and actions. So like, that’s just kind of one of the things that like I’ve started noticing a lot more.

on all forms of social media and I kind of have that hesitancy and I have that kind of like, you know, that doesn’t seem or doesn’t feel right to me.

Josué (10:56.496)Yeah. Well, and it’s, um, the actual location has a lot to do with that as well. Because if they’re incentivizing it, that’s, that’s the real, like a country in a city can, can control these things. Like when we talk about gentrification at the, at the local level, like cities are encouraging this kind of stuff.

Marc (11:04.173)Mm-hmm.

Lara (11:20.726)Mm-hmm.

Josué (11:21.596)You could put a stop to a lot of this, including, you know, there’s immigration policies in different countries and things like that can kind of stop that. But in the book Babel, right? Like the thing is that there’s the UK has so much power because basically they control, there’s a magic system in this world and they control the source of the magic almost entirely.

And so they really are an oppressor, right? Like they go in and they take whatever they want because they can, they are literally more powerful than any other country. They have the biggest military, but they also have magic powers on top of everything else.

Marc (12:07.429)Yeah, which is, which they, they take from the countries that they’re, they’re trying to, to strong arm and trying to, you know, colonize or they’re trying to just take over by force because they’re utilizing their resources, their language for the betterment of purely themselves that they then turn back and use on the very people.

Josué (12:36.056)I saw a TikTok from the author, Rebecca K.F. No, Rebecca F Kuang is that correct? And she had just won an award for novel of the year or like fantasy novel or something like that of the year in the UK. And she was like, how is this possible? Like, this is such a huge critique of the UK and its history.

Marc (12:44.172)Yeah.

Lara (12:55.267)Hmm.

Marc (12:58.453)I’m sorry.

Josué (13:03.852)How is this possible?

Lara (13:06.998)That is like the ultimate like obliviousness, right? Like there are so many we can talk about how people don’t see themselves like in the empire or whatever in Star Wars or.

Josué (13:11.588)Right? Right.

Josué (13:19.452)Link? What?

Link muted.

Link (13:26.084)I’m unmuted. What happened to Lara?

Josué (13:29.82)Oh, she’s frozen.

Marc (13:30.015)Oh no.

Lara (13:31.51)I don’t know. I think it’s frozen.

Link (13:33.924)Uh oh. I was, but now I’m.

Josué (13:33.936)I thought you were going to say something.

Josué (13:39.156)Did you forget?

Link (13:40.553)Yes.

Josué (13:41.851)I’m out.

Link (13:45.252)I’m going to respond to what Lara was saying when she disappeared, so now I don’t know.

Marc (13:45.401)This is going to be a fun episode dude.

Lara (13:49.646)Well now I’m frozen, or you’re all frozen.

Marc (13:51.585)This is gonna be fun.

Josué (13:51.792)you were you were you were reacting to

Josué (13:58.056)I don’t remember now either.

Link (13:59.357)Hahaha

Marc (14:01.621)Yeah, I couldn’t remember what it is Lara was trying to say.

Lara (14:06.418)I was saying…

Marc (14:07.905)This is gonna be fun to edit.

Josué (14:09.088)Oh, the obliviousness. She said that it was like the ultimate obliviousness that the country could not remember, could not like see that the entire novel is a critique of. Yeah, I don’t think so either. What do you think it is? What would you call it?

Lara (14:10.814)The obliviousness.

Link (14:21.472)Yeah, I don’t think that’s obliviousness.

Link (14:27.236)It’s another tool in the tool book of control. If you give awards to things that critique you, then people are like, well, they’re listening to critiques and now people won’t do a violent revolution.

Josué (14:47.965)To be fair, that award was not given by like the monarchy or the government, right? It was just a literary organization.

Marc (14:48.033)Yeah.

Link (14:53.028)No, but the point stands, right? It’s literary organizations and publishing companies, like they own the means of production.

Marc (15:05.625)Yeah, and I mean, we kind of see that with all sorts of different companies nowadays. Like I just heard on the radio this morning about PETA trying to basically capitalize off of this phone call that Pete Davidson had made to them where he was like cussing them out and they made a costume about it. And then they’re like, oh, you know, like we’re making this costume about it. Haha. So funny.

but also buy the costume. And every time you buy the costume, like all the proceeds go to this organization. It’s like a hundred dollar costume, but like it’s their way of kind of like trying to exercise that control because here’s someone or, you know, people providing a critique and they’re like, well, let’s, let’s spin this. We’ll capitalize off of it. Haha, this is so funny. But also like, let’s do something about it so that way we can.

retake control over the situation.

Link (16:06.268)Yeah. Basically, it’s just, it’s not obliviousness. It’s very calculated.

Josué (16:08.145)Why do you think that?

Josué (16:12.9)Yeah. So why has this stuff been bothering you so much Marc? It’s in the book. It’s on your tiktok

Marc (16:20.21)Yeah, I-

Josué (16:21.78)It’s on your PETA.

Marc (16:24.385)You know, I think what it kind of like, what kind of really sticks out to me with it is it kind of goes back to a topic and a conversation that I know we’ve touched on plenty of times before in different episodes about this idea of being a third culture kid. Where, you know, for me in particular, you know, as I’m a first generation Mexican American,

My dad came here from Mexico when he was a little kid, things like that. But for me, growing up being born and raised here in America, I was always one of those kids where I was too white to be Mexican, but too Mexican to be white. And like, I don’t speak Spanish. I don’t understand Spanish. So that just further ostracized me. And so looking at the idea of, of like,

the colonialism factor and sort of the struggles of colonialism and how it’s relating to the main character Robin because he himself identifies as that third culture kid because he can’t relate to his native culture and he also can’t relate to, you know, the UK society because he’s

half and half.

Josué (17:55.504)Yeah. Robin is somebody who, who right in the novel, he is taken from his city in China as a child and raised in the UK.

But he’s… How do they describe him? He’s like… White passing enough. Enough.

Marc (18:15.093)He’s white passing. Yeah, he’s white passing enough where like, if you look at him from afar, you could think he’s like any other typical white male, but it’s when you’re like, you’re actually up, you know, you’re up close and personal, you’re actually talking to him, you can clearly make out his Asian features and things like that. Um.

Josué (18:40.777)I don’t think this is messed up, but you could play Robin in a movie, in the movie version. Ha ha ha.

Lara (18:45.852)Hehehehe

Marc (18:46.173)You know, and that’s the other thing too, is that I think that that’s another reason why the colonialism thing also kind of like is sticking with me because that’s another main thing, is that I’m often misidentified. Like I cannot tell you how many people just assume that I’m Asian or that I have some sort of Asian heritage. Like, and there are some people that

Lara (19:02.207)Mm-hmm.

Marc (19:15.677)even when I explain to them my heritage and everything, they don’t believe me. They’re like, no, that doesn’t sound right. No, no, you have to be Asian. And people will refuse to acknowledge the fact that I’m not and they’ll continue to misidentify me. And that’s something that like growing up, I at first I kind of took offense to it and then I kind of started to own it a little bit, you know, it was a ha funny joke and.

Josué (19:25.62)I kind of love it.

Marc (19:43.697)you know, I played around with that title, but I was also unsure of myself because my mom also has some unsure origins from her dad’s side of the family. But I think that like, you know, it’s one of those things where if you’re in a culture that is much more dominant, so like for me being in America, being a minority, they have that power.

People have that power to say, mm, no, I don’t believe you. I think you’re this, so that’s how you’re gonna be to me.

Josué (20:23.732)takes a special kind of person to say that. But yeah, I’ve met them, many of them. Yeah. Yeah, no, they’re around.

Lara (20:25.471)Mm-hmm.

Marc (20:29.465)Mm-hmm.

I still meet them.

Mm-hmm.

Josué (20:37.492)They’re here. So how does that? Yeah. So how do you how does how does that make you feel?

Marc (20:39.001)That was a very roundabout way.

Marc (20:48.577)Like I said, it’s one of those things where when I see it in social media or when I start seeing it, sort of, I see little bits and pieces of it playing out. I’m like, eh, ah, you know, it just gives me the ick. That’s kind of the simple way I can put it, is that it gives me the ick. I just, I don’t like it. I can understand that for a lot of people,

the situation here in America is not the greatest. But I also don’t think necessarily the solution is how about you just get up and leave and take advantage of another community’s resources for your own benefit.

Josué (21:31.752)Got it.

Josué (21:35.08)Do you think about the relationship between the United States and Mexico and how messed up that has been as well? Like there are people who were living in Mexico and all of a sudden, because the United States said so, they were suddenly living in the United States. Right. Because like they just redrew the borders and took over parts of Mexico. Do you think about that stuff?

Marc (21:51.256)Mm-hmm.

Marc (21:57.397)Yeah. Or like, I don’t, yeah.

Lara (22:00.515)And multiple times too. Why? California? That’s still part of Mexico. Oh, sorry. Nope. Now that’s the US.

Josué (22:03.59)Probably, yeah.

Marc (22:11.921)You know, I don’t think it’s necessarily that piece of it that I so much as like I think about more often, but I think more about just my own lineage. Like my dad’s side of the family traces back to the indigenous people in Mexico. And then obviously when, and then, you know, I’ve done like the ancestry.com stuff to kind of view my heritage and things like that. And aside from, you know,

taking out my mom’s side out of the equation, if I’m looking at just my dad’s side, there are so many other things that were intermingled in addition to the indigenous people. So like, obviously they came colonized Mexico and that European bloodline then mixes in with the indigenous peoples, all that sort of stuff from whatever means.

And then, you know, that ultimately led to where I am today.

Josué (23:17.64)Chicago

Marc (23:19.893)Basically. Looking like I’m Asian.

Josué (23:29.712)no comment for that yeah

Marc (23:32.929)Well, what are your thoughts, Josué on the ideas of colonization

Lara (23:39.564)I just want to before Josué starts talking, I want to point out that anytime Marc picks a topic, it’s like therapy for Marc Always.

Josué (23:46.733)Always, always, always.

Marc (23:48.119)Okay, but I didn’t go this way, okay? He’s the one who came out of the gate swinging, calling me a colonizer, and then proceeded to say, well, how does this make you feel?

Lara (23:58.103)I feel like that’s kind of not quite, I don’t know if Josué would call a client a colonizer, but I feel like he’s pretty confrontational. Right, right, right. In service of the client, right?

Link (24:09.186)Ha ha ha!

Josué (24:09.72)Only if I thought it would get us where we, where we wanted to go. In service of the client in service of the Marc of course. Yeah. No, this, this topic infuriates me for a number of reasons. Um, I don’t think I cared as much when I was younger, but as I got older, I definitely did the, the idea of the, of the colonization, like one, one example that I give people is that if you’re a resident of Puerto Rico, and it doesn’t matter if you were born there and that it doesn’t matter if you’re Puerto Rican.

Marc (24:12.345)I’m sorry.

Lara (24:20.535)Anyway.

Josué (24:38.428)But just by living there, you lose the right to vote for president, for example. And it’s such a weird thing, you know? Um, silly U.S. citizen, but also like, I don’t know. I think that’s really important. Like the fact that you lose the, this, this ability and it’s again, it like, doesn’t have to be that way. Like Washington DC couldn’t vote for president until the seventies.

Lara (24:42.771)Mm-hmm.

Cause you’re still as a US citizen.

Lara (25:00.315)Mm-mm.

You know who else loses the right to vote for president? People in jail. And that’s really fucked up.

Josué (25:10.068)Mm-hmm. Yeah. Um, and there’s different reasons why all those things

Link (25:15.844)It’s almost like the ruling class benefits from that situation. It seems kind of like that maybe.

Josué (25:22.448)Yeah, you think so? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so, again, but that’s because of the special relationship that the United States has with Puerto Rico. As a as a colony where things just like, you know, like the people there do not even have the right to like they have they literally have no representation in Congress, so they can’t even advocate for the changes that they

Marc (25:27.202)Just a little bit.

Lara (25:48.539)Mm-hmm.

Josué (25:52.072)Like the people can’t who live there.

Lara (25:54.299)Right. They can’t advocate for like, hey, how about this voting rights?

Josué (25:59.364)Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, from that perspective, it upsets me. As a person who just, you know, reads and knows people from different parts of the world, I have all sorts of opinions that I won’t get into necessarily here. But a lot of the stuff that you’re talking about, Marc I agree that this is one of those novels that touches on all of them very explicitly. Like nothing about…

about colonialism in this novel is…

Josué (26:33.464)implied right it’s all it’s all very explicit um and the main character you kind of goes on this journey where he’s and i would say it’s probably similar to mine as well it’s like as a kid like you start you start buying into the positive reasons why you’re like and you’re like i’m not part of the problem you know and then and they all struggle with it

Marc (26:35.562)Yeah.

Link (26:58.296)The propaganda, it’s so good. Yum, yum, yum.

Marc (27:01.374)Mm-hmm.

Josué (27:01.592)Yeah, and they all struggle with it, right? Because especially when you’re benefiting from it, it’s hard to criticize it. But as he gets older, as he sees the things that are going on, and I mean, and then in the story, they push him hard to basically go to China and screw people over, it’s harder for him to keep playing that game. So I think that that…

that story resonates or would resonate with a lot of people. We haven’t even talked about translation piece, like how language plays a role in the novel either, but yeah, that’s one of those stories that, yeah, pisses me off. Pisses me off a lot, yeah, yeah. I mean, of course, this isn’t the only story that touches on colonialism in that way, but it is a historical fiction.

It’s great, yeah. And the author seemed like, I would say, very angry while I wrote the whole thing. It was great, it was great. It’s like it was very purposeful.

Link (28:12.5)Josué you read this book a while ago at this point, but what was your emotional response to reading this story?

Josué (28:21.296)Yeah, pretty much what I was just saying now, like it was, it was infuriating because it reminds me of all that stuff. Like it resonated on multiple levels. But I also, I also loved the, like I wanted to read it because of the translation piece, like because language was a big part of it. And, and I like to study languages. So that part was really interesting to me. But yeah, again, like I saw myself in that story where I’m.

Link (28:30.217)Did you?

Lara (28:38.824)Mm-hmm.

Josué (28:51.268)I remember being younger and believing different things and my beliefs have changed over time.

to where I’d burn it all down now. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

Marc (29:02.973)You just tear it all to the ground? I also think that the book itself also touches on like even the difficulty of even of having that conversation of like, yeah, okay, like all this propaganda that we went through, all the benefits that a person might have experienced because of colonialism, like, yeah, sure. That was all cool. Fine and dandy.

but it doesn’t take away from the bigger picture. And I think like the book really highlights like just how difficult it is to kind of have people realize just how detrimental the system actually was. You know, like the, you know, like the main group, there’s four, you know, four people that are in the cohort with the main character, and they’re the ones going through school together. And three of them are, you know, from…

different cultures from different countries. And they were brought to either the UK or one of them is France, and then ultimately to the UK to study. And one, she was born and raised in Great Britain. You know, she’s just really good and really adept at languages and translations and things like that. And when they tried to explain to her, like,

the reasoning why that they have these emotional responses to kind of the situations that they’ve experienced throughout the book. And her just being so completely dumbfounded and flabbergasted like the entire time and then falling back on the defense of like, well, look at all the benefits you guys get received. Like, look at all the good you guys got. Like this is, like, why would you want to throw all that away? Like, just use it and then.

in turn, try to go back to use the system. But, you know, like, again, it’s like, like having that round and round and round conversation of trying to explain that to people and, and sort of like the difficulties it is of, of having to have that conversation of like, yes, the system might’ve been beneficial or it might’ve benefited me specifically. And there for every person that benefits. From the.

Marc (31:25.801)oppressed culture, country, wherever, there are at least like 10, 15, 100 different people or more that are suffering because of it. And that does, that’s just not right.

Josué (31:42.192)One of the things that the book reminds me of, and I think about this constantly, is that even though, and I said, oh, I would burn it all down. The truth is, I mean, the four of us haven’t done shit to make any of this better, right? Like we’re all part of the problem and we all kind of live in it and it’s part of the machine, right? Most of us are benefiting from it and we’re all just here. And that part of it in the book is very…

Right? It’s like, it’s an, these are intimate conversations between the four people, a few more later on that are going on. And it’s exactly what you were saying. It’s like, what is, are we part of the problem? Are we benefiting from it? Should we do it? And if we do something, how much should we do? How far do we take it? Are we actually going to make some sort of change or are we going to, how much are we going to do to our detriment? Because to, to actually do something about it, we’re going to have to take it to an extreme. And.

Marc (32:26.954)Mm-hmm.

Marc (32:39.761)Yeah, and even then, yeah, and even then, like even if you do take it to an extreme, there’s not necessarily a guarantee that it’s even going to be effective or that it’s even going to create that change, because it can just as easily be spinned and twisted into extremist ideals, radical beliefs, things like that. And then in turn, you’re just providing…

Josué (32:40.932)And the truth is, we’re a part of it.

Marc (33:08.429)fuel for more propaganda to be created, which then further drives people into the very system that you’re aiming to destroy. Or change.

Josué (33:18.612)At least this book in particular, it does take it, right, because of the way that it sets everything up, it does take it to that, like, if they take it just far enough, they do literally change the balance of power in the entire world. Like, they do, they are able to take away a huge piece of power from the UK. But to do that, they need to sacrifice a lot. Right? A lot of everything.

Marc (33:42.217)a lot.

Josué (33:46.16)Right, they need to make some sacrifices and The real world is in that is in that clear cut, but the novel actually sets up that that’s an area where it’s where it is possible

Lara (33:57.487)And that kind of makes sense because the real world, we end up in these situations where colonialism, capitalism, I mean, it’s all intertwined, but all the different things, all these systems we have that are broken are so ingrained and like, there’s little web tendrils everywhere and we try to fix a problem and we create another bigger problem and then we fix that problem and we create another bigger problem. And so…

In a book like this, you can go just far enough and sacrifice things. And I’m guessing burn the whole thing down. I haven’t read it, but from what I’m hearing is then they do a lot of damage. In a good way.

Josué (34:37.091)There’s a lot. Yeah.

Yeah.

Josué (34:45.22)Yeah. And again, I think that’s what makes stories like this, right? That’s what makes them a fantasy. Because, is it? Is what?

Lara (34:52.145)Mm-hmm.

Link (34:53.608)Is it?

Link (34:57.3)I mean, history has shown that violence can change a lot of things. The problem is people often don’t want to do violence.

Josué (35:04.18)Yeah, yeah, but

Josué (35:08.248)Exactly, exactly. Yeah, that’s what I mean. Like, how far do you take it? And how much violence is necessary to do it?

Lara (35:09.4)Mm-hmm.

Link (35:14.472)I haven’t read this book. I did read a synopsis of it before we recorded, but it seems to me to very much take the stance of you cannot change the system from the inside. You must destroy it. How do you guys feel about that story idea, that narrative?

Josué (35:33.008)Yeah, yeah, that’s definitely what it is, for sure.

I mean, they debate that as they go through.

Josué (35:44.444)Is that your question, if that’s what happens in the book? Yeah.

Link (35:45.098)Yeah, the book takes the stance that you can’t change it from the inside and you must destroy. How do you guys feel about that?

Marc (35:45.918)Mm-hmm

Josué (35:51.774)Mm-hmm.

Oh, yes. Yes, I agree. I agree. Because it depends on the machine. The machine is too big, right? Like, again, I mean, just to use another

Lara (36:04.351)Mm-hmm. Smaller machines you can break from the inside, right?

Marc (36:05.031)Mm-hmm.

Josué (36:08.944)I mean, there’s, what is it? There’s like the United States, that one feels hard. That one feels hard to change from the inside. Maybe there’s other ones, but there’s, this one feels really hard. It’s designed in a way that is to, yeah, everything about its design is meant for it to.

to continue. There’s a TV show, it was starting, Kiefer Sutherland, where there’s a terrorist attack and they basically, like, they destroy the house, the house and the Senate. Like every, I believe that’s what happens. They kill everybody. And then, no, this isn’t 24. No, no, but Kiefer Sutherland, I think is the, like, the undersecretary of education or something like that.

Lara (36:49.531)Is this 24? No. I was like, wait, wait.

Lara (36:57.911)Oh, is it like the sole survivor or whatever? The yeah. Or designated survivor, designated survivor.

Josué (37:00.28)Yeah, yeah. So he ends up being president because he’s like, I don’t know. And in what is it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Which is, which is the whole thing, right? Like even, even when they meet, they’re like, we got to have one person in this room just in case. Just in case. In Battlestar Galactica, right? It was like, it was also the secretary of education. And maybe I’m mixing them up, but she was the secretary of education. So she was 234th in line for the, for the presidency. But like the system, the system stayed intact.

Lara (37:11.487)One person who can be president has to not be there, yeah.

Lara (37:30.117)Mm-hmm.

Josué (37:32.024)Cylons tried, but even destroying half the world couldn’t bring down that government.

Lara (37:39.239)some of these systems and especially we’re talking about the book is about the UK like Nina didn’t even realize until a month ago that Canada is still a colony of the United Kingdom Just because It is and you don’t it just that’s the way it’s been since we were born, you know

Josué (37:51.24)Yep.

Josué (37:56.083)It is.

Link (38:00.56)And our American education system is very much of the belief that we don’t like colonies are a term from ye olden times and not applicable to current events. It’s just when we talk about pilgrims, not when we talk about your neighbors.

Lara (38:11.099)Yeah, we don’t have colonies anymore.

Josué (38:11.124)Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lara (38:19.656)Mm-hmm.

Josué (38:19.848)We had 13 original colonies and that story is…

Link (38:23.882)We never talked about him again

Marc (38:26.394)It’s like, you know what? They disappeared. They became the United States. No more colonies. Never again.

Link (38:31.264)No more questions.

Lara (38:31.955)Mm-hmm. No more.

Josué (38:33.588)But it’s also like glamorized, right? It’s like this wonderful story of independence and liberation. Hypocrisy is what it is.

Link (38:44.653)Ha ha.

Lara (38:44.828)Mm-hmm.

Josué (38:48.228)Yeah, but yeah, so there’s that piece. And then you brought up the translation piece, right? Like kind of, so the magic system in this book is all about how there are things that are lost in translation. And what is lost in translation in this book is harnessed as power, energy,

it can be applied in different ways. So for example, if you take two words from two different languages that mean either bomb or explosive or something like that, depending on how far one word is from the other in terms of meaning, if you put those two words together on a piece of silver, you can, by reciting the words,

the energy in between the translation, what is lost, can create an explosion. So that’s how you would create a bomb in this particular story. And it’s really, really cool. And they play with this idea a ton. And they use it for health, they use it for reinforcing steel, they use it for electricity, they use it for a whole bunch of stuff in the story. But Marc, you said it, you mentioned that at the beginning as like, it made you think about how

Often, even changing from one medium to another, you lose a lot of the meaning in it. Why was that on your mind?

Marc (40:26.893)I just kind of think back to…

Marc (40:32.345)So the big thing that I can kind of draw from is like when there are movie adaptations of books, right? Where sometimes the particular the author writes the book that has like they’re trying to convey a specific message or they’re trying to tell us a certain story. And then when you try to adapt it to a film.

Marc (41:03.061)If you try to be completely faithful to the source material, depending on how long the book is, you’re looking at a five, six, seven hour long movie, if not even longer, depending on what details are even provided within the book. And so part of the job and the process is to do their best to try to retain what the central points and the central themes of the book are.

while still making it an enjoyable experience for the viewer to watch, right? And in some cases, it can still do it, like there are directors, there are films out there that can do it pretty well. I don’t ask me for examples, because I cannot name any off the top of my head. But I just know that there are some adaptations out there that, you know, for the most part, they’re pretty faithful. But there’s still some lost meaning,

feelings. I feel like it’s almost like a different story that’s being told, no matter how faithful it is to the source material. And then there are some cases where it’s just so bad, you know? And it creates its own different meaning, it becomes its own separate entity, but the true meaning behind whatever that material was just gets lost.

Lara (42:30.095)I can see that Marc. I think about books where if you for time, because there’s so many different things you squish two characters together into a movie and make them one. And some other things like if you pull Something a character does in this important scene in the book out because it doesn’t make sense in the movie.

you lose, but then later events happen, you lose that motivation and the understanding of why that character did that thing. Again, can’t really think of specific examples, but I’ve read a million different memes and posts recently about like, well, this is a thing in this source material that didn’t end up in this show or this movie, and it changed how we saw the character and how…

Lara (43:26.147)not noble, their motivation behind their actions were. I can think of one that is fairly, like it honors the source material, but has some differences. The Last of Us, the game going to a show, it feels like the game, but there are some key things that are very different. I mean, they changed the transmission of

the virus or the fungus. And that made for different things that had to happen that couldn’t happen in the game. But it still felt, there were some things lost, but it still felt, at least to me, like the same meaning behind it and the same kind of story behind it.

Josué (44:19.796)I think there’s a difference between like trying to translate something and have something be lost and making deliberate decisions. Because like when you’re trying to condense something, you have to cut corners and you have to change it. But sometimes we deliberately, you know, make changes. But then in other cases, we just like the medium is so different or the language is so different if you’re using actual languages.

Lara (44:28.147)Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:48.112)Like there is no word equivalent, but there is no way to do what you did in the book in a movie. So you need to find a different way to try to do it so you can try to get close. Your intention can be similar, but sometimes it’s impossible to translate from one medium to another, from one language to another. It’s a…

It makes it hard to have like a universal language or universal medium, things like that.

Link (45:24.18)I say it all the time, the medium is the message and that applies to the language that we use as well. That is also a medium through which we communicate ideas.

Lara (45:24.487)Yeah, when I was watching-

Lara (45:31.231)Mm-hmm.

Lara (45:35.443)Mm-hmm. When I was trying to catch up on watching Steven Universe, I was watching it in like 10-minute chunks or whatever on, or three-minute chunks on YouTube, and it was translated, it was in English, but there were Portuguese subtitles at the bottom, and they had to explain the puns to people because, and that’s one thing that puns are very language-specific, and there’s a few…

There’s a, I can’t remember the exact joke, but there’s something about cats and purgatory, and that can translate to several different languages, that pun. But otherwise, most puns don’t make it through. Humor can be really language specific, so.

Josué (46:24.161)Even cultural references there.

Link (46:24.965)That’s why we love localizers, yay!

Lara (46:27.888)Yay!

Marc (46:28.779)Mm-hmm

Josué (46:30.9)It’s a hard job, but even sometimes even culturally, like within Geek Therapy, we talk about having a shared language, right? Because even the cultural references, we can both speak English, but it doesn’t mean you understand, doesn’t mean you get the memes, doesn’t mean you get the references, because those are culturally specific. Steven Universe is full of those.

Lara (46:32.522)Mm-hmm.

Lara (46:45.734)Mm-hmm.

Lara (46:56.763)Yeah. A lot of them.

Josué (46:59.849)Yeah, yeah

Link (47:02.312)And temporally specific. Specific. In time. Yes, temporally.

Josué (47:08.838)Did you say temporarily? You’re far from the microphone.

Marc (47:11.853)Hehehe

Lara (47:12.336)Mm-hmm

Josué (47:14.268)Yes, also temporally specific.

Link (47:18.729)Well, you guys got any other media examples? I came with a couple.

Marc (47:19.257)Yeah. Well, you know, and not to get, not to get too religious, but I feel like this, this is like one of the big things that like, when it comes to translations, like, I feel like this is something that will inevitably come up is that, you know, when you look at a lot of these holy texts, like, you know, the Bible or the Quran and stuff like that, the original languages that

they were written in, for the most part, like, or at least as far as I’m concerned, no one can decipher that original language. And that’s to even say, like, we have the original texts of those said scriptures or whatever. And so everything that we’ve had up until this point has been a translation. It’s been an interpretation of it.

And so who’s to say that the stories that we read now are truly the stories that were being documented and recorded when those particular passages were being written? Because as far as we know, we don’t know what those original texts say. And even now, we had to backtrack it. And by doing that, we’re basically having to

re-translate it using stuff that we’re already familiar with, but even then you’re losing more of the meaning and losing more of the… What’s the word I’m looking for? It really is just like the meaning and like the colloquialisms and the context of which those original stories were being recorded in.

Josué (49:04.18)authenticity there.

Link (49:07.492)context.

Josué (49:13.296)Yeah, I mean, take it one step further. There are multiple translations of just the Christian English Bible in English. And depending on the church that you go to, they use, they use different translations because some are more convenient than others.

Marc (49:19.783)Exactly.

Marc (49:26.621)Exactly. So, you know, and that’s the point is that like these different translations are used to suit the needs of whatever it is that the organization is looking for, whatever church, whatever the Jewish specific church, whatever goals they’re looking to accomplish, they’re going to use what they view as in their eyes will be a more accurate translation, but really it’s just a more suitable translation to what it is they’re trying to accomplish.

Josué (49:56.2)Maybe because sometimes it’s just like it’s just like that’s what you grew up with But then but then I think what happens is then all the other ones are wrong

Marc (49:57.094)Yeah and

Lara (50:04.667)Look, everyone should just read the Torah instead.

Josué (50:07.477)Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Link (50:09.444)Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Marc (50:10.445)So like…

Lara (50:15.683)Mm-hmm. So no one debates that. It’s interesting because leading up to the high holidays, Nina and I’s rabbi was talking about reading, you read the same psalm over and over again. And she said, you don’t read the same translation every time, you don’t have to. And so you can get the same story with very different meanings. I mean, there’s similar meanings, but some are written more beautifully than others. And there’s different.

Link (50:17.793)Ugh.

Lara (50:44.711)different wording, but it’s just very interesting because the Hebrew, it’s the same, but we can interpret it differently into English and other languages.

Josué (50:58.076)Also, as a person who speaks multiple languages, it is extremely distracting to look at translations and understand both of them because holy shit are things different sometimes. It is so hard and distracting. It’s fascinating, but it is damn…

Josué (51:27.904)This is why

So that we don’t even have the words to describe the way we feel, right? So, but we see it and we have a particular version of it that seems accurate, that seems representative of the concept or the idea or the feeling that we want to show. And it is hard if your therapist doesn’t understand, you know, that’s why we always talk about like, bring the actual media in if you can.

Lara (51:50.623)Mm-hmm.

Josué (51:56.176)And then, you know, and show it. Don’t just, because even just talking about it, is it the same thing?

Lara (52:01.299)Well, even just someone coming to me and they’re glad I understand what Discord is and being able to understand what a server is and what a channel is and what… how to do a GIF in it and all these other things. They’re like, you get it, you understand the word mod, the word whatever. Or a client who… Almost exclusively, we have talked about life through the lens of…

The Legend of Zelda and being able to like show up in therapy and see me wearing I’m currently wearing my Legend of Zelda hat and like see that and be like, oh, let me tell you about this, this and this. Like it’s been exactly you understand what I’m saying when I say a Korok seed and how I’m collecting all the Korok seeds right now. And I’m like.

Josué (52:47.376)You speak my language.

Lara (52:57.667)That is perseverance right there, friend. That is perseverance.

Josué (53:01.515)Yep, yep, yeah, yeah.

Josué (53:06.356)Was there anything else about the book you wanted to cover, Marc? Or that, or that, or not necessarily about the book, but the ideas in the book.

Marc (53:15.081)In terms of ideas of the book, no, I feel like these are like my two, the two biggest things. And I feel like they’re also the two main themes of the book. Um, there are things that I do want to just touch on the book, but I feel like since you and I are the only two that read it, that’s just something that I could just talk to you about afterwards. Yeah.

Josué (53:33.108)Call me.

Josué (53:38.204)Got it. Got it. Any closing thoughts, Marc?

Marc (53:42.273)colonialism is bad and exactly don’t do it don’t do it it’s bad guys don’t do it and

Josué (53:45.468)You said don’t do it, right? Is that, yeah, okay. Okay, okay.

Marc (53:55.525)I think translation, and this is something that was touched on in the book, but I think that while it does pose its own issues and concerns at times, I do think that the art of translation is something that is to be admired. I think it is a beautiful thing to create meaning and doing, and especially when someone’s doing their-

Josué (54:16.424)beautiful. Yeah.

Marc (54:23.837)their best to try to retain the original meaning of whatever the original text is, and convey it in a different language.

Lara (54:33.707)Not an easy job.

Marc (54:35.434)No, not at all.

Josué (54:37.904)I forget the person’s name, but on TikTok, I follow someone who goes through, and there’s a few people that do this, but they go through the history of a word and what it used to mean and where it came from and what the root was and how it changed. And over time, and then it meant this and then it meant that and then you’re like, oh, damn, that’s how we got here. That’s cool. That’s cool. Yeah. Yeah, it’s beautiful. Lara, closing words, closing thoughts.

Lara (54:56.249)Mm-hmm.

Lara (55:06.511)I got nothing.

Josué (55:07.432)Cool, cool, cool. Link.

Marc (55:08.353)Hehehe

Link (55:10.616)Yeah, I have a couple of recommendations of other media to get into if you liked this conversation. On the anti-capitalist, anti-colonialist side, there is the movie Sorry to Bother You, which is…

fantastic and very funny and surprising and you will gasp and go, oh, what the fuck is happening? A great movie very much about what we were talking about earlier of changing a system from the inside versus its necessary destruction. And then more on the language side, also related to the Tower of

Link (55:57.728)Snow Crash has a lot to do with the idea of shared language being…

a whole thing and its relationship to tech. You should read that book. I truly think that you are going to be so into it. Then also the movie Arrival, which is really cool. First contact movie about aliens and a linguist slash etymologist trying to figure out how to communicate.

Josué (56:10.644)I should read that book.

Link (56:33.868)with the aliens, both to communicate from us to them, but also to receive their communications to us. And there’s a whole lot of really juicy philosophical questions about how language shapes the way that we think about everything. And framing that in extraterrestrial stuff is really cool and interesting. But yeah, two movies and a book to go with Babel. Yeah.

Josué (57:02.229)Yep.

Link (57:02.872)Check them out at your local library.

Josué (57:08.496)shouldn’t surprise you, but Arrival is my favorite sci-fi movie. For yep. Yep. And.

Link (57:11.172)It’s great.

Lara (57:14.684)It’s on the list of things to watch.

Josué (57:17.38)It’s, I like it, I like it a lot. And again, I think this is a good example of just a story that made Marc feel something, made him feel a couple different things. And so we talked about it. So, you know, remember, use media in this way. That’s what we’re advocating for. It’s if it makes you feel something, whether it’s positive or negative, there’s something there and…

We get up with your therapist, with your friends, with your podcast. So start a podcast. Talk about this kind of stuff. It’s great. So thanks Marc for bringing this one up.

Marc (57:52.946)of course.

Josué (57:54.42)And thank you for listening, for joining us, join the conversation in any of our community spaces. You can do so by following the links in our show notes. Remember to geek out and do good, and we’ll be back next week.

Link (58:09.668)MmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmBabel

Josué (58:13.704)Nice.

Link (58:15.398)Pfft. Hehehehe.

• Babel: Or the Necessity of Violence by R. F. Kuang
• Star Wars
• Designated Survivor
• Battlestar Galactica
• The Last of Us
• Steven Universe
• Legend of Zelda series
• Sorry to Bother You (2018)
• Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson
• Arrival (2016)

Conversation Topics:

* Colonization* Oppression* Translation / localization* Change* Cultural representation* Death* Family* Fear* Feeling alone* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Guilt* Etymology* Moral dilemma* Standing up for others* Standing up for oneself* Taking responsibility for one’s actions* Media adaptations

Relatable Experience:

* Third Culture* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Death* Fear/Anxiety* Fighting* Loss (other than death)* Guilt* Moving* New Life Event (New Rules)* Trauma

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

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Josué (00:01.95)Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona and I am joined by Marc Cuiriz Link Keller, and Lara Taylor. Everybody, what y’all playing lately?

Marc (00:12.497)Hello?

Link Keller (00:14.667)Yo.

Lara (00:16.879)Hey!

Josué (00:23.242)Anything? Anything good? Anything near? Tears of the Kingdom? Yeah? Pardon, Marc, what are you playing?

Lara (00:24.903)Tears of the kingdom.

Marc (00:28.428)Kitty Collector.

Link Keller (00:28.834)Oh, I’ve been…

Marc (00:31.581)I’m playing kitty collector.

Josué (00:33.09)Kitty Collector Link?

Link Keller (00:35.63)I’ve just been putting just, you know, a couple of hours into a little indie game that I’m sure none of you guys have heard of. It is a sequel. It is part of a series. Just a small, small little game nobody knows about called Baldur’s Gate 3 and… Whoaaaaa!

Link Keller (01:00.748)Yeah.

Lara (01:00.899)I mean, that’s also what I’m playing.

Josué (01:00.994)I thought you were going to say moving out too. Yeah, but yeah, Baldur’s Gate 3. I think, have we all been playing it? Marc, are you playing? Yeah, for sure.

Marc (01:03.156)Yeah.

Marc (01:08.32)I am looking at my steam right now. I have played it for a solid 84 minutes because I literally bought it two days ago.

Lara (01:15.995)I’m sorry.

Link Keller (01:17.01)84 minutes that’s pretty close to the amount of time that I’ve put into the game which if I pull if I pull open My steam right now it says No, it says 227.9 hours

Josué (01:17.186)That’s a bet.

Marc (01:21.605)Oh yeah, I-

73.1

Marc (01:30.252)Oh wait, hold on, I’m sorry, that says 73.1 hours played recently.

Link Keller (01:35.75)Yes, because I had already put over 100 hours into this game when it was in early access and one might suspect that maybe I would chill out about it. No, not even a little bit. I’m going harder than ever. I can’t stop thinking about it. I’m constantly thinking about it. Right now I am thinking about it. Are we actually done? Can I go play?

Lara (01:43.21)Mm-hmm.

Josué (01:44.081)Oh.

Link Keller (02:04.043)My babies.

Josué (02:04.214)Before you go, can you tell us what the game is and what it’s about?

Link Keller (02:08.658)It is a RPG. The first one came out in, I wanna say 96, 98 maybe? Late 90s, early 2000s. And I played those games, Baldur’s Gate 1 and Baldur’s Gate 2 a shit ton in my youth. And I have been excited for more Baldur’s Gate since 2007.

Josué (02:27.822)same.

Lara (02:28.646)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (02:37.494)when they started promoting Dragon Age Origins as the spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate. I’ve been craving it. It did not hit that mark for me, but Baldur’s Gate 3, it is more Baldur’s Gate. It is a different game. It plays a little bit different. It plays a little bit more similarly to Larian Studios’ other games, Divinity, Original Sin, and that sequel, but it is still in its heart.

Baldur’s Gate game and so I am having so much fun playing. You get to make your little character. It is in the Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition rule set. So most of the basic Dungeons and Dragons stuff is in the game. And yeah, I made my little character and I collect my little friends and we go on little adventures and then we do mass murder and stealing and…

Kissing? Mmm!

Lara (03:41.187)Mass murder and stealing? I haven’t done any of that. Well, maybe mass murder. Of goblins.

Josué (03:48.142)So many goblins.

Link Keller (03:48.248)Just a little light murder. So anyways, I’m having an absolute blast with this game. It’s been something I’ve been excited about for years. And it’s fantastic. I’m enjoying it so much.

Josué (04:04.138)Well, I too have been playing Baldur’s Gate 3 and that’s not really what I want to talk about today. I picked the topic, it’s not really about Baldur’s Gate 3, but there is a character in Baldur’s Gate 3 that you can choose that I want to talk about and just to kind of set off the conversation. But I will say that Baldur’s Gate 3 more than any other game that I’ve played… maybe ever?

But you can tell me what other games do this. And I recently played Divinity Originals sin two. I’ve played, I think I’ve played, you know, a variety of RPGs. But this game feels like it has, it almost feels like anything is possible in the sense that you have many different, like you meet somebody and you’re like, oh, I could befriend this person or I could kill them or I could kiss them. Like, I don’t know, like, anything feels possible.

And so I’m very hesitant at some things because there are some games where you’re like, I’m just gonna say this to see what happens, but I don’t really expect there to be a consequence. And in this game, I’m like, attack? No, I’m not gonna attack because if I attack, I’m gonna end up killing them. Or I might die, yeah, yeah. It’s gonna be a whole thing. And so the game is a lot of fun and it feels like there’s high stakes because I know an epi-

Link Keller (05:08.89)Heheheheheheheheheheheheheh

Lara (05:13.629)Mm-hmm. You might die or you might die. Yeah.

Josué (05:27.978)character can die and then that’s it. Like their whole storyline, they could have been on your party, in your party for 207 hours or however many.

Link Keller (05:37.53)Hahaha

Lara (05:38.231)and the one wrong statement and that person dies in a battle.

Josué (05:41.006)Or you could have killed them at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I find impressive about the game. And I think that’s one of the reasons why right now it is beloved and getting very, very high scores in reviews. And so you can create your own character. How many of you created your own characters? All of you? Same. So I created a character of my own.

Lara (06:00.771)I’m excited.

Link Keller (06:02.913)Yes.

Josué (06:08.182)Which is almost identical to yours, Lara, not surprisingly. Hahahaha

Link Keller (06:12.193)Wow.

Lara (06:12.907)Look, I’ve never played a Dragonborn. I wanted to play Dragonborn. I love Rangers. I want to be a Ranger. Yeah.

Josué (06:15.99)Mine was a Dragonborn. Yep, yep. Yeah, yep, yep. So I created a character and then I saw, it wasn’t a review, there’s this YouTube channel called Fextralife where he does a whole bunch of coverage of the games and in a very technical way. Like this is one of those games that I’ve been studying. Like I watch hour long videos on every class before I decided what I wanted to do. And he made a video on this, one of them,

Link Keller (06:17.455)Hehehehehehe

Josué (06:44.914)Origin characters that you can choose. I think there’s 12, right, that are actual characters in the game that you can pick. And 12, is that too many? I think there’s 12 characters throughout.

Link Keller (06:54.362)12? That’s way too many. There’s six companions which you can play as origin characters and then there’s the dark urge which would be seven.

Josué (07:03.111)Uh-huh.

That’s it? Okay, then seven. Then half of what I said, then half.

Link Keller (07:09.326)And Asterix, the Dark Urge one, is like, is your backstory that is provided to you. You still get to choose what class, race, what you look like, all of that stuff is still customizable as opposed to the companion origin characters, which look and are built the way that they are, though you can multiclass or reclass them through in-game. I don’t think so. I think they just look how they look.

Lara (07:17.884)Mm.

Josué (07:29.918)Oh, you can’t change the appearance of the other characters of the other originals. OK.

Lara (07:35.76)Yeah.

Well, and when you think about this, game is pretty close to a direct port of D&D into video game form. And so that’s like getting a pre-gen versus building your own character. So yeah.

Josué (07:48.81)Yep, yep, yep. And so there’s a dark urge. You just mentioned that character, right? So I see this video, this guy’s talking about the dark urge and he said something that was very GT to me. He was like, this character, what sets him apart from other characters is that he has these dark thoughts and I can really relate to that. Like sometimes I’m in a situation and I think something and I’m like, I’m not gonna do that, but I thought it.

And I’d never played a character, you know, in a game that had an experience like that. It’s like, wait, what, wait, what? How true is this? So I went and I gave up my character. I had only played a couple hours. And so I went and I switched over, started again as a dark urge. Literally that’s his name, the dark urge.

Lara (08:36.455)Huh.

Josué (08:37.946)And it is, I’ve never played a character like this. At least I can think of. I’ve played games that have morality systems where you can play as good or bad. And one that I really think about often is the Renegade and Paragon system in Mass Effect, where there’s like, as Shepard, I remember one option, right? Because I was pretty into the red, into the Renegade part. It was like, oh.

You can respond to this or you can punch him in the face. I was like, yeah, I’m going to punch him. There was an option to just pull the right trigger and punch him in the face. And I definitely just punched him in the face. But there were just two options. It was like, do this or now that you’ve unlocked this whole bad side, you can do things like that. But the dark urge is not like this. The dark urge has dark thoughts.

Lara (09:09.933)I’m gonna go.

Josué (09:35.39)really dark thoughts. And then the character does not want to have these dark thoughts. Without spoiling the experience for people who want to do it too much, the moment he wakes up, you realize he’s got amnesia. So he doesn’t know why he has all of these dark thoughts coming to him constantly. But those are options. And sometimes the option is just fantasize about ripping their head off, not actually ripping their head off. And

I saw it described by someone as like hard mode. It was like, it was some kind of hard mode where you’re like, even if you wanna play as a good guy, these bad choices are always there for you and they’re enticing you. And at times it almost seems like, it’s like you want to do them, right? Like your character.

Like you’re playing against what your character wants to do, because your character wants to rip their head off or eat their eyeballs or whatever it is that they want to do. So does that sound like another game that you’ve ever played before? I’m curious, because I’ve never played a game that has this kind of thing.

Lara (10:51.851)Not this close. I think Knights of the Old Republic had light side, dark side, similar to the way morality system same way that you would in Mass Effect. But, but not anything quite like this.

Josué (10:56.854)Yeah. Morality system. Yep.

Josué (11:01.91)Yeah, same company too.

Josué (11:09.238)Yeah. And there’s, and there’s games that you play where you’re playing, you know, like a bad character and they have and they’re they have an attitude, you know, and maybe their way of doing things is is. More of an antihero type of thing.

Lara (11:26.387)Link and Kayla and I just talked about that kind of stuff not that long ago. Yeah

Link Keller (11:28.601)Hehehe

Marc (11:29.364)Hehehehehehe

Josué (11:30.314)Oh, yeah, yeah. But very different to actually like have these dark thoughts there. And so I thought like this is such an interesting experience. And I thought of many different uses for something like this, right? Where it’s an experience that’s relatable to someone who, you know, has dark thoughts and is constantly fighting against them. But I also thought, and I’m curious what you guys think about this.

It gives me depression quest vibes. Where in depression quest, you have these different options. And sometimes there are options that you can’t choose, right? And you have good and bad options that are, you know, healthy and unhealthy options for you. And that’s what this feels like. It’s like, oh man, I don’t know if that’s what I should do or not. I can’t believe he even has this option. Like that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like, I shouldn’t, right? Right? And then you look around and you’re all alone and nobody.

Link Keller (12:23.109)Hehehehehe

Josué (12:28.802)You realize you’re the conscience. You’re the conscience for this character. No, I mean like in real life, like you’re just like, I need somebody to like bounce this idea off of. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (12:29.338)No witnesses. Hehehe.

Lara (12:31.993)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (12:35.79)Hahaha!

Marc (12:38.38)Hehehe

Lara (12:40.24)Yeah.

Josué (12:42.698)Link, does this remind you of any games that you’ve played before?

Link Keller (12:45.582)I think it’s pretty distinct. I think there’s some overlap with other games like Mass Effect. I think another overlap would be with something like The Last of Us, where the character makes choices that you, the player, do not agree with, and the emotional reactivity of that. But I think Baldur’s Gate III is sort of special in that way, in that it is

utilizing like is building off of like video game morality systems like the renegade paragon dichotomy there, but it’s also building off of Dungeons and Dragons morality system, which is sort of twofold. And there’s the good and evil, lawful chaotic cross alignment, but there’s also reputation, which is dependent on where you are.

where it’s like certain groups of people want you to do evil stuff and so you’ll get more reputation points with them for being a little bit naughty But other places you would lose reputation points for that and it’s like in Baldur’s Gate one and two those systems were there But they were very much under utilized under realized almost certainly because Computers can’t couldn’t handle that level of complexity, but they can now so it’s like so much more complexity

Lara (13:51.348)Or a lot.

Marc (13:52.596)Hehehe

Link Keller (14:11.714)But what I think is the most interesting about the Dark Urge stuff is there are some of them that you are forced into doing. And some of them, it is an opt-in choice, right? When you get the little text, what your character is going to say, the next line in the conversation. Side note, Larian Studios has stated that they do not suggest people play the Dark Urge as their first play through.

And I think that this is part of it is because when you play through the first time and you have made your character, your character, depending on their race and class, gets special lines that are just for them. And so it’s like if you show up to the tiefling camp and you are a tiefling, you get to say different things than if you’re a drow or dwarf or human. And the same thing with like if you’re a barbarian, you get to show up and just be like, I’m going to sp-

split you in half with my big Axe and people are like, whatever you want, baby. But then if you’re like a rogue, which is what I’m playing as most of my rogue specific conversation pieces are just like, hey, I usually get paid for this, which I think is very funny. But it sort of creates this feedback loop where you’re playing this character.

you’ve invested in building it a certain way, you wanna click those options because those don’t show up in every play through. That’s special to this character. And so you wanna click them. And so when you have the dark urge, it’s like this extra layer of like, that’s the new option. I wanna pick the new one. And then it’s the, yeah. And so it’s this balancing act of like, well, like, do I…

Josué (15:49.922)We have both. You have both now.

Lara (15:56.627)I already played through in a nice way, maybe.

Link Keller (15:59.45)I already did nice stuff, I’m ready to see the bad stuff, like what’s gonna happen, what are these consequences gonna be, are they gonna be like big consequences or are they gonna be- because sometimes like you build up this idea of like if I click on that things are gonna go sideways, like if I click that, if I click choice two instead of choice one, everything’s going to hell and you click it, you’re all ready and then nothing happens and it just is like-

Yeah, it’s a little spicier way of phrasing the thing I wanted you to say anyway is whatever and nobody responds to it. And you’re like, oh, okay. But we like the dark urge, it’s a whole extra layer on top of that. It’s like, is this the one? Is this the one? Is this going to have like huge repercussions? Is it going to, you know, get one of my characters killed? Is it going to completely close off a whole side quest to me if I click that option? But I want to click it because it’s got that special parentheses, dark urge around, like

I think that’s yummy, delicious brain stuff there.

Josué (16:57.566)Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. It does add an extra layer of complexity. You’re like, oh, do I do the dragonborn one or do I do the kind of the twisted stuff?

Link Keller (17:07.354)I do, and I do just want to say, like, as much as this game absolutely feels like a real tabletop Dungeons & Dragons game sometimes, it is a video game, and it has tools that tabletop games don’t have. Like quick save and quick reload. Please use them. They are vital to your game enjoyment. So you get that option pop-up.

Lara (17:25.339)Hmm

Marc (17:26.653)Ahem.

Link Keller (17:31.458)I’m slamming that quick save button so I can click it and find out what happens. And if I don’t like it, I reload. And if I do like it, I keep playing. Maybe put a couple more quick saves down just in case. I actually, I remapped. My mouse has like a forward and back button on the side. I remapped the back button to be quick save. So I’m slamming that quick save button all the time.

Josué (17:57.549)So I’ve been playing it as…

Josué (18:02.998)I don’t have time to play four different versions of every interaction. And so I’ve started playing a while back, different games this way, where I’m like, fuck it, I’m just, this is it. This is whatever happens and I’m going to keep going forward. And so I mean, obviously I save a lot because just, I don’t want to die, but no, you know, you got to save in this game, but I haven’t really tried to play around with.

Link Keller (18:24.159)Yeah, and it gets.

Lara (18:26.747)Mm-hmm.

Josué (18:30.518)So there are times when I don’t know what would have happened if he, if he did the thing. You brought up last of us. And that’s interesting because in the last of us, there’s this. Event that happens at the end of the first game that a lot of people disagree with. And I’ve, and I’ve, and I’ve read of people who just sat there because they didn’t want to do the thing that you had to do at the end. But that’s it. There was like, you had no choice. And the game kind of lets you just sit there. Really just.

Like, you know, whenever you’re ready, whenever you’re ready, you can press the button and do the thing.

Link Keller (19:03.886)Just loop the soundtrack, we’re fine. Take your time.

Josué (19:06.278)Yeah, and so the dark urge, for the most part, always gives you a choice. It’s more like there’s this voice in the back of your head. Also the narrator is fantastic. Like the narrator is constantly like, you fantasize about it, you know, like eating their eyes out or something. I don’t know. And you’re like, what does it, would you stop? And she makes it sound very enticing as well. And so that stuff is funny. There was one thing at the beginning that happened.

Lara (19:06.887)Mm-hmm.

Lara (19:24.135)Ha ha

Josué (19:34.786)that was completely out of your control. And then, but then, then you get to react to it. And you get to decide like, I’m gonna own that shit or I’m going to feel bad about it. And I don’t, who am I as this character who has all these dark thoughts? Am I someone who embraces it?

Lara (19:56.299)Am I, am I someone who doesn’t care or am I someone who does the thing anyway, but gives a shit?

Josué (20:03.662)You can not care. You can absolutely care and show remorse. Or you can like double down and be like, damn right. And I do it again. Don’t cross me. And that kind of scope is, again, it is just, like you were saying, Link, it just adds this additional layer of like, I’m, I don’t know, there’s something that just feels more realistic about it. It’s like, you flip a switch that makes it.

Lara (20:08.848)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (20:32.714)I mean it’s more realistic to like my internal thought processes while I am playing a video game. Where it’s like, ah I’m the hero of city and I’m here to save the day. I wonder what would happen if I shot directly into that big stack of exploding barrels.

Josué (20:33.326)I don’t know.

Josué (20:39.678)Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josué (20:54.602)So here’s the thing, right? Like when I play a video game, I am the character, right? I’m like, okay, I’m making this decision, but this character is constantly telling me that it is struggling with the choices that are being presented in front of it. So even when I want to play a certain way, he’s still pushing back on me in a way. And that is fascinating. That is just such a interesting experience. Hmm, so interesting.

Lara (21:05.968)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (21:24.038)Mmm. Yummy!

Josué (21:24.514)So Marc, what is it? Does this make you think of anything?

Marc (21:29.672)Hmm, you know When when you when you guys were all kind of talking about like, you know Knights of the last Republic the last of us, you know Mass effect. Yeah, right the game that came to my mind was fallout and the morality system with that game because in fallout like yes, you have certain dialogue choices that you

Josué (21:40.118)games that came out before you were born.

Lara (21:42.undefined)Mm-hmm.

Marc (21:58.524)that you make and that can either, you know, gain karma, lose karma. And again, it’s like a reputation based thing, but it’s also, it also takes it outside of just the dialogue where certain actions you do. We’ll also cause you to lose or gain that karma, whatever it might be. So you can play the game as, and you can be the asshole and just be like, you know, I’m a steal from everybody.

I’m going to kill you, I’m just going to destroy this and then you risk losing certain quest lines. Or you could try to be the savior of the wasteland and just try to be a goody two shoes. You know, it kind of opens you up for those sorts of things. And you know, for me, this is my first time playing any game. Like Baldur’s Gate is like my first, like this is my first experience with the series. This is my first experience with

Any game that’s even in this format like I’ve never played a game like this before. I mean, I’ve played dnd before so It I have some familiarity with it Um, so like it’s not like i’m a complete stranger but like Hearing things like you know, the dark urge like a character like that I know that like you guys were saying where You know, i’m sitting there playing fallout and i’m like, okay. I’m talking to this person. I know I need to be

Josué (22:59.662)counts.

Marc (23:18.78)okay with this person I got, I would get them on my good side. But I’m like, I wonder what happened if I just took this, this mini nuke and just decimated the whole squad right now, just because why not? But then you kind of look around, you’re like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t do that. And so I was tempted to have my very first playthrough be the dark urge. And I decided against it just because I was like, you know,

It sounds very enticing just to see what those choices are and just to kind of see just like how messed up they can really be. But at the same time, I was like, well, this is also my first time sort of playing through this sort of game. I want to try and do it. And I’m very much kind of like you, Josué where I am the character. It’s me making those choices. So when it comes to me, like when it comes to like those big decision making things or when any game kind of has

Lara (24:06.403)Mm-hmm.

Marc (24:16.244)choices that can impact the story. I will pause, unless it’s like a quick time choice decision thing, like Telltale games, I will pause it or I’ll leave it exactly as it is and I will Google it. Because I always want to make sure that I am making the right choice to get the outcome that I want. Because I don’t even want to save it. I just want to just get it right the first time.

Josué (24:33.41)Yeah.

Lara (24:35.802)Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (24:44.224)So I’m like, OK, what’s the right choice? But I also understand with a game like this, like that’s kind of impossible because almost every choice you’re making in some way, shape or form.

Lara (24:45.019)Mm-hmm.

Josué (24:46.39)Oh, you would hate the way I’m playing now. Yeah, yeah.

Lara (24:49.484)It’s…

Lara (24:55.975)There are so many choices in this game, so many choices that have impact.

Josué (24:58.646)Yep.

Marc (25:00.048)So, so this game is one of those things where I have to kind of be okay with like, all right, you know what? Fuck it. I’m just going to full send myself and just I’ll make these decisions. However, I would like originally make these choices as if I was the character and just see like, is my decision making abilities, are they actually up to snuff or do I just suck and I need to start rethinking how I how I make decisions in this world?

Lara (25:27.532)It’s interesting.

Josué (25:27.678)in real life or in the game.

Marc (25:29.692)I think the game will be an accurate reflection about the real world based on, because every decision I plan to make is like, this is what I would do. Like, this is legitimately, like, if I was in this situation, if you took me and put me in that situation and I had these choices in front of me, this is the choice I would make. And just see, like, is that gonna get my whole party killed? Am I gonna die? Let’s find out.

Josué (25:32.398)Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Link Keller (25:36.534)Bye.

Lara (25:38.427)Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:47.675)Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:53.455)Marc, it’s interesting because you brought up the like, well, I know I need to be good with this person, so I’m going to pick this answer or whatever. And I mentioned earlier this game being close to a D&D like direct port, but it’s not quite because I think Kayla brought this up on the episode we did about anti-heroes, but we play a D&D game together. And one of our new players, first time playing D&D, doesn’t give a fuck. And like.

is playing, was playing a warlock, now playing a sorcerer. We came up against like, in the Hobbit with the spider webs around people and we were supposed to be rescuing people. And she saw us trying to rescue somebody and she just, Eldritch blast the spider web and almost killed this person, right? That we’re supposed to be saving. And so I think some people would like to just go in, play it differently.

go all in. In D&D you have a DM who can kind of shift, but like when you’re looking at this game, like, oh I know I need that person, I need to talk to them for something later probably so I’m going to avoid doing that. Because you don’t have a DM who can just pivot if someone dies.

Link Keller (27:04.63)It’s like also in like tabletop, like when you’re playing with other players, like they are also real people who deserve to have, you know, moments in the spotlight and have choices that matter. And it’s not just you. But in a video game, it’s just you. You can’t this game does support multiplayer. We could play we could play co-op and it’s very fun to do. So I haven’t tried it in the actual game, but I played co-op in the early access a couple of times. It was.

Lara (27:16.796)Mm-hmm.

Lara (27:21.195)You can do whatever the hell you want. Yep.

Josué (27:23.382)We could play co-op.

Link Keller (27:32.978)a blast, but it is a very different gaming experience than when you are controlling your whole team.

Lara (27:40.675)I think people at Larian have also suggested it’s a different game when you’re playing. You should play on your own and also play with people.

Link Keller (27:50.85)It is a different kind of experience.

Josué (27:51.058)I’ve only played Divinity Original Sin 2 with another person. And it’s if you’re going to play it with other people, you got to play it like a D&D campaign, I think. And you’ve got to kind of be on the same page. You can’t just play with somebody random. And they’re just they pick the dark urge and they’re just, you know, doing all this crazy stuff. I’m messing up the world for you. It’s good to be aligned. But a lot of the stuff that like a lot of the bad that you could play.

Lara (28:06.933)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (28:07.763)Oh no, that sounds awful.

Josué (28:20.958)Right? That you could attack everybody. You could, you can attack NPCs. You could kill a whole bunch of people. Like you can steal from, from people like you can still do that in the game.

Lara (28:24.39)Mm-hmm.

Lara (28:28.964)Oh yeah.

Link Keller (28:29.05)The game is structured in such a way that the more evil choices you choose, the harder the game gets. The main way being… Yeah, I mean the main way being if you are aggro and violent, people fight you, so you have to do more fights than you would if you were being nice. But also your teammates can…

Josué (28:40.714)And that’s true for the, my distinction is that that’s true for the dark urge as well.

Link Keller (28:56.058)turn on you or leave, which means you have fewer resources gameplay wise and so it gets more difficult in that way as well.

Josué (29:04.778)Yeah, those consequences.

Marc (29:05.492)You know, I find that when I’m playing a game solo, I tend to try to be more of the good character. But when I’m playing with friends, I don’t give a shit. Like I will be, that’s where my chaotic energy just like reigns supreme. I would be the kind of person to be like, you know, when I’m with my party, try to convince them to just

Link Keller (29:07.482)consequences.

Lara (29:19.313)Hahaha!

Link Keller (29:20.639)Time for chaos!

Marc (29:34.932)go haggle somebody or hey, let’s go mug that one person or like, oh no, do this. It’s fine. No one, no one’s going to care. And then, you know, the whole town tries to chase us out. I’m also the kind of person that would just go into a room and just fireball the whole thing and just, you know, shoot first, ask questions later. But on my own, I’m like, no, let’s, let’s be the good guy. I don’t want to make any enemies. Let’s all just be friends. We’ll hold hands. We’ll, we’ll sing under rainbows. It’s fine. That’s what I want guys.

Lara (29:50.279)Uh huh.

Link Keller (30:04.102)I am the same way, Marc. Like when I’m playing by myself, I’m like, one, I want everybody to like me. I know they’re not real people. They’re just lines of code, but they have to like me. And I wanna collect all of them. It’s very much collection thing. It’s like, I have to collect all the little friends. I have to make everybody like me. Everybody’s happy. I get the happy ending, the credits roll. If I’m playing with other people, I’m like.

You know what I love more than anything? Experimentation. So I’m just gonna try throwing this exploding barrel and we’re gonna see what happens. It’s just, it’s the scientist in me. I don’t know what to tell you guys. And the people I’m playing with are like, please no, no. Oh.

Link Keller (30:43.642)chaos.

Lara (30:44.283)So you basically are saying that Josué should not play with you in multiplayer, because you have…

Link Keller (30:50.003)I think we should all play together and it would be really fun, but I do want you to set your expectations where we will not be doing a serious run. We’ll be doing a silly goofy guy run.

Josué (30:58.686)Yeah, we’re never gonna finish that game.

Lara (30:59.307)Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (31:00.76)Oh no, 100% not. I think me and Link would just be the Shaggy and Scooby of the group who were just running around getting into hijinks and you guys just deal with it.

Link Keller (31:07.93)Yes. ruh roh

Josué (31:14.034)I’m the, I’m the, I don’t know what character this would be, but I’m the one who like, you turned around and he’s not there anymore. And then you hear an alarm or something because I pressed the button. I just pressed all the buttons. That’s me. Yeah.

Lara (31:23.067)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (31:23.59)Oh, okay, so it’s two Velmas, Shaggy and Scooby.

Marc (31:26.572)hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (31:34.238)That’s what it would be like. Yeah. All right. So we can’t think of anything else. Again, I’ve never played like a tortured character that allowed me to play him as…

Tortured.

Josué (31:51.438)I have no idea if there’s any redemption for this character. Like, I’m not, I’m not.

Link Keller (31:54.45)I didn’t get into the end game stuff of either of the Divinity games, so I don’t know if… This may be a Larian thing, this is a thing that they are continuing to engage with, because the premise of that game is you are a bad guy and you do bad guy stuff. You don’t have to do bad guy stuff, but it’s like, you’re a bad guy.

Again, I didn’t get to the later game stuff, so I do not know how any of that stuff resolved. I could be completely off base here. But I feel like it might be something that Larian Studios finds this idea really engaging, and that’s why they keep delving into it. What makes people do these things? What is the urge within us that causes us to harm each other?

Josué (32:26.658)Yeah.

Link Keller (32:48.066)the planet we live on and the systems around us. Like, how does that work? How do we systemize that into a video game where we can play with the pieces and see, like, how can we change? Where is the space for, like, shifting the path, so to speak? I think that that’s intriguing stuff.

Josué (33:10.75)Yeah, yeah. I don’t, I don’t, yeah, I recently played Divinity Original Sin 2. Maybe I’m, I’m not… It sounds like a different game than what you’re describing, but I think you played way more of it than, than I did.

Link Keller (33:21.23)It’s been many years since I played, and I played the first one a little bit, and then I played the second one like more, but also not too end game stuff, so yeah.

Josué (33:34.174)Yeah. Well, one funny thing to me is that Divinity Originals 2 and Baldur’s Gate 3 are practically exactly the same game for the first. I’d say for a good chunk of it, it’s exactly the same game, the way it starts. But so, yeah, I can’t believe there’s no like other real good comparison for it.

But what about in the sense of, so let’s say Lara or Marc, you’ve got a client, right, that comes to you and is, it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. Right? And…

Lara (34:20.858)That’s like my entire caseload.

Josué (34:22.878)Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, it’s like, hey, you’ll get there, Marc. You’ll get there. You just gotta, you’ll get there, you’ll get there. So Lara, right, somebody comes up to you and it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. And I’m playing as this character called the Dark Urge. And he’s got some dark urges. He thinks some messed up stuff. And I kind of relate to that.

Marc (34:23.644)wish that was my caseload.

Josué (34:51.05)Right, like, where do you take that conversation from there?

Lara (34:58.047)Um, usually when I take that conversation, because it has come up, not necessarily like this dark urge, but like people have thoughts that are just thoughts. Like, um, I don’t know, I hate my kids or what if I just like break this thing that is so important to my husband or whatever, you know? And most of the time people don’t act on those things, right?

Josué (35:26.099)Yep.

Lara (35:26.939)They’re just thoughts. All of us have them. So normalizing that piece and then like, explaining, well, what is it like to get to come up against these things and like be able to like act on it? A video game allows you, without real world consequences, to do things you can’t do in real life. Or you could do, but it would be really bad for you. And so, yeah.

Definitely have had conversations like this and they go very interesting places and people are usually relieved to know that like other people Have thoughts about hating their kids. Yes, most parents do That doesn’t mean you don’t love them too. Those kinds of things Yeah, so

Josué (36:15.724)Yeah.

That’s one of the things I like about how I first heard about the character was that someone online was like, hey, I played this. I’m relating to this character because I never like maybe this guy never talked to anybody about the dark thoughts that he has. Just like your example of like, oh, other parents think these things too. Really? I had no idea. Other people play Paltress K3 and want to rip arms off people. Really?

Lara (36:34.928)Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:39.356)Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:46.415)Listen, we’ve talked before on the show about villains and relating to villains and I think there’s like, I don’t know, those dark urges that people have, you know, it’s part of everybody. We just, some people focus on it more than others or some people ignore it more than others and some people talk about it more than others and yeah.

Everybody’s got those dark urges. We all have a shadow.

Josué (37:18.75)And I know I mentioned depression quest before, but one of the things I like about depression quest is using it as a way to show people who have not experienced depression, some of the symptoms of it and some of what the experience is like. For those of you who haven’t played depression quest, it’s a narrative fiction game where you are a person who is experiencing depression.

And so you have options and sometimes the healthiest options that are available in the real world, supposedly, you can see them in the game, but you can’t actually select them. Meaning that as the character in the game, those options are not visible to you. Meaning that in real life, sometimes you don’t see the, like you don’t even think that it’s possible to do the healthy thing.

even though people around you might be able to see it, right? Like in the game, you as the player can see that option is there, but the character doesn’t actually have that as a real option. So I like the idea of using something like the dark urge to show people like what it’s like to have conflicting thoughts and thoughts that are really, really difficult to. To understand even because that’s one of the things about this character, this character is like.

Why am I thinking these things? Like, I have no idea. He has a backstory, but he doesn’t even know what it is. So there’s some reason, maybe, maybe he’s maybe he is a terrible, you know, evil character. But for some reason. Right now, he’s not. But that part of him is still left over and he is struggling with it.

Link Keller (38:50.606)That is actually…

Josué (39:07.146)And it’s my job to either let him, you know, feel good about it or not, or, you know, like a therapy simulator.

Link Keller (39:14.234)I do not think that the actual game has gone into this topic with as much depth and care as we bring to it, but I do think that it is a starting point for discussing things like intrusive thoughts with OCD. This idea of like, you can’t.

Lara (39:32.581)Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:32.935)Yeah.

Link Keller (39:34.742)Like it just keeps like every you’re having a conversation about something else completely and that thought keeps popping up anyways and you’re like, I can’t, I’m not going to say it. I don’t want to say it, but I keep thinking it. So I don’t, I don’t think the game obviously is not going for that kind of conversation. But I think that it is absolutely useful for us. Yeah. For us to use as a jumping off point for that kind of thing.

Lara (39:46.652)Mm-hmm.

Lara (39:53.499)That’s the kind of conversation we have.

Marc (39:56.268)Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:59.722)Yep, it sparks it. Yeah. I have not found a therapist that you can go to in the game for the darkers to go.

Link Keller (40:06.838)Yeah, you know, honestly, there is a real lack of therapy and social work in Faerun. It’s an epidemic, honestly. They really…

Lara (40:19.759)You might find a cleric that might be willing to listen, but sometimes they’re just too preachy about their god-

Josué (40:23.722)Even a Baldur’s Gate? There’s nobody? Nobody?

Link Keller (40:27.226)There’s a lot of cops, but they’re not gonna help ya.

Josué (40:29.43)uh ouch yeah

Marc (40:30.644)Hmm. I think they put those resources to the exact opposite.

Link Keller (40:38.582)That’s it. This is the media reflecting reality reflecting media. I’m gonna start hanging up posters says fewer flaming fists, more therapists in Baldur’s Gate. Defund flaming fist. But really, we should. We should defund flaming fist. We should invest in the people, the communities.

Lara (40:43.327)Mm-hmm.

Lara (40:52.423)hahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (40:53.31)More therapists.

Marc (40:53.526)Hahaha

Josué (41:06.67)So it takes 200 hours to get to Baldr’s Gate? Is that what I’m hearing?

Link Keller (41:11.858)Um, okay, so on this, like on your character save, it tells you how long you have been playing that character as. So I got to Baldur’s Gate like 80 hours in.

Josué (41:28.002)Good to know, good to know. All right, so I know I’m the only one who’s played as this character. Do you have any questions about it?

Link Keller (41:30.605)I’m only…

Link Keller (41:35.702)I did, my friend Remy, he played through, and he plays more like you guys do, where it’s like if you make a choice, you commit to it. So he has to reload a lot, but it’s because everybody dies, and so you have to reload. But if everybody doesn’t die, he just keeps going, whatever the consequences are. And so he obviously made it through his playthrough much faster than I did. And then he started over and he did the Dark Urge run.

Josué (41:44.983)Yeah.

Josué (41:51.19)Yeah.

Marc (41:51.872)Hehehe

Lara (41:52.519)Mm-hmm.

Josué (42:04.063)Oh, what’d he say?

Link Keller (42:04.65)And so I had him talk to me about it. But he was, he was, his main complaint was, is he had ideas about what he wanted it to be and it didn’t meet those expectations. And that is a common.

thing for him is he always like expands on the idea and he’s like think how cool it would be if they did this and they followed that thread to over here and the game’s like we can’t do all that that’s too much man and then he’s disappointed about it. But yeah so he didn’t he didn’t give me too many spoilers but he did say he was a little he loved that because the dark urge actually has a backstory that does make him unique in that when you make your own characters like.

Marc (42:32.855)Hehehe

Lara (42:33.793)Hehehehe

Link Keller (42:50.902)it doesn’t have a game backstory. It’s like, you can make it up or not, that’s your call, who cares? The game does not care. But the Dark Urge actually has a past, and so that’s really interesting. But he thought that there would be a bigger payoff at the end, and it was very similar to how his first playthrough ended, and so he was a little disappointed in that. But to me, that makes sense, because this is not a separate game mode. This is just a different character within the same game.

Josué (43:17.758)Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Link Keller (43:20.866)But yeah, how far are you? Are you in act two yet? Okay.

Josué (43:26.838)No. Not at all.

Lara (43:30.343)Oh, so you haven’t done the link you shared to us from IGN? You haven’t murdered every single NPC in Act 1? And stored them in one house? Yeah.

Link Keller (43:41.923)I’m sorry.

Josué (43:42.05)Nope, I have not. And shove them in the same house? Nope, nope, I haven’t done that. Like I said, I’ve mostly been playing the character as someone who is like really dealing with intrusive thoughts and is struggling with them. And at times does succumb to them, but other times, and is also apparently doing things unconsciously that doesn’t feel good about it. Actually, so there’s a…

Marc (43:43.82)Hehehe

Lara (43:56.768)Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:11.63)There’s a character, there’s a murder that happens that you don’t do on purpose. And afterwards, when you realize that it happened, I took something of that person after they died and I wear it with me always, because to me, this version of the character is remorseful that happened, he didn’t want that to happen. So this is like in honor of the person that he did not mean to hurt.

is wearing this thing of them to remember them by. That’s my version of the dark urge

Link Keller (44:48.662)That actually just reminded me of, I do have another example that’s, it’s not a perfect overlap, but, and also not a video game, but Dexter, his dark passenger is what it is referred to as in the book series and the TV show. And that’s his like urge to do murder. But then he, you know, his work around is he focuses it on.

Josué (45:11.551)Yeah, yeah.

Lara (45:12.4)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (45:16.842)enacting this violence that he feels compelled to do. He is enacting this violence against other violent people. But he also, like his thing is like he would collect, I think he was collecting blood slides. It was like a major plot point in the first season where he had to get rid of them so he wouldn’t get caught or whatever. But like that, it’s like, it’s kind of a serial killer move to be like, I’m gonna keep this object and I’m gonna carry it with me. But it is also.

Lara (45:31.483)Mm-hmm.

Josué (45:35.338)Yep.

Lara (45:41.413)A trophy.

Josué (45:43.502)I didn’t think of it that way. I didn’t think of it as a trophy.

Link Keller (45:44.926)It is also absolutely a way of like, I am carrying proof of my shame and guilt and I cannot be relieved of it. So I must carry it on me with like a physical symbol. So I love that sort of dichotomy, mirroring moment happening there where it’s like, ooh, yum.

Marc (45:44.96)Hmm

Lara (45:45.764)Now.

Josué (46:04.938)It’s true, I mean, I could have made the same exact choice and then just in my mind, because you can’t go into this much detail in the game, but in my mind, it would have been like, this is a reminder to everybody else, don’t fuck with me, or if not, I’m going to murder you, and I’m just gonna wear a piece of you around to remind the others again. But in my mind, I’m like, and every time it comes up, I’m remorseful of it. Also, I could have denied that it happened, and I didn’t. Right? So, like, people know

what happened. At least I think I know what happened. I’m not even sure. I just, I don’t know if I’ve told you, when I was in a car accident when I was like 20, no I was like 18. I was in a really bad car accident. I got hit from behind and then my car skid into the car in front of me. So there was a, it was a three car pile up. I was in the middle. And when the cops came, I was like, it was my fault. It was my fault. It was all my fault. The cops like, are you sure?

This is the story you want to go with? And I’m like, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

Lara (47:04.199)I’m sorry.

Link Keller (47:06.094)that seems physically impossible and you’re like, no, it was all me, officer.

Marc (47:08.501)Hehehe

Josué (47:10.474)It was all me. It was all me. I did it. I couldn’t. Yeah. And I mean, obviously at the moment I remember it. I remember what happened. And I also remember being in this state of mind where I was like, no, it must’ve been my fault. Like my breaks did this. And then that’s why the guy behind me hit me. And then like, it was my fault that the guy behind me hit me and it’s, and therefore it’s my fault that I skid into the car in front of me. It took me hours afterwards for me to realize that like that made that logically made no sense.

Lara (47:28.165)Mm-hmm.

Lara (47:37.733)No sense.

Josué (47:41.47)But it reminded me, like, that’s how I played the character. It was like, this thing happened. It was like, did you? Yes, yes, it was me. I think, I don’t know, I wasn’t awake when it happened. But yep, I’m sure it was me. Must have been. Damn. I assume responsibility. Also, I feel bad.

Link Keller (47:56.902)I love that this is like in video games that makes sense because you are the actor. Like everything that happens is because of you moving through the game space. But for you it is a pattern of how you respond to things and also how you respond to things in the game. I love that.

Josué (48:09.727)I don’t know actually.

Josué (48:20.118)But also in the game I don’t know that it actually…

Link Keller (48:20.526)You’re like, something terrible has happened. It must be my fault. I’m so sorry, everyone. How can I fix this? I’m so sorry. I’m gonna wear a little piece of this car for the rest of my days.

Josué (48:30.558)Again, this thing that happened in the game.

Lara (48:34.709)Mm-hmm.

Josué (48:35.526)I don’t know that the character actually did the thing that I, that I, that he’s assuming responsibility for through me, but I just, it’s got, it’s gotta be. I mean, it’s got, it’s gotta be, of course. I mean, and he, yeah, yeah. Very much me.

Link Keller (48:45.783)It’s… it’s you!

Lara (48:50.347)I love that you’re playing it this way, Josué because if I play it, I’m just gonna double down. I’ll do it and I’ll do it again. Make it so different from me.

Josué (48:59.242)Well, well, it depends, right? Like, I don’t know what the consequences would be if I did that. Like we were talking about before, like you can try to play bad, but then at what cost? Because I’ve already had my people.

Lara (49:06.332)Mm-hmm.

Lara (49:09.655)Right. But if it’s my second playthrough, I don’t care.

Josué (49:15.29)True.

Marc (49:15.62)I feel like for me I’d play it more like the cookie jar, but like who me? Couldn’t be, couldn’t be me. Why would it be me?

Link Keller (49:22.458)couldn’t be, then who? It, the, the playing as not the dark urge, the game still has a similar ethical question that it is doing of like opting into more power versus not because it’s kind of suspicious. It does that same thing with the tadpole powers and

Josué (49:36.247)system.

Josué (49:44.97)Yeah.

Lara (49:46.567)Mm-hmm.

Josué (49:50.871)Yep.

Lara (49:51.363)Every time I use that I’m like, ooh, maybe I shouldn’t have. Ah.

Link Keller (49:54.762)I, okay. So the game starts, you get a tadpole There’s, there’s not a choice in that, but later on you get an option to unlock powers for it, which you can choose to do or not do. And then later on from there, you get another opportunity to increase those powers, which unlocks basically like a second tier of very cool, illithid powers. But it’s…

Lara (50:02.267)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (50:24.322)very much feel like you’re like, is there going to be a consequence for this? Like if I if I opt into this at all, like, that’s the connection. It’s Bioshock. The first the first Bioshock game had a good ending and a bad ending, where you could only get the good ending if you saved every single little sister. If you if you ate even one of them, you got the bad ending. And so

very much that is informing the way that I’m playing Baldur’s Gate, even though I don’t think it’s going to be the same at all. Part of me was like, if I use even one time the worm power, I’m going to be full evil. I’m going to get the bad ending. Everybody’s going to hate me. So I really grappled with it for a while. But then I wanted the utility of the moves. I wanted to…

Lara (51:15.087)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (51:16.65)And this actually loops back to Mass Effect. One of the second tier illithid powers is a black hole. And when I played Mass Effect, I played as whatever the magic user is called in that game. But black hole is one of their powers. And I would just spam that through all of Mass Effect. And so I’m like, ooh, I’m going to do it again. Black hole, black hole, black hole, black hole. I’m having a lot of fun.

I am still kind of worried that it’s, I’m going to have some big consequences for taking all the powers, but I’m committed to it at this point.

Lara (51:52.975)Gotta commit to the bit.

Link Keller (51:54.443)I’d commit to the bit.

Marc (51:54.76)Mm-hmm.

Josué (51:54.783)Well, an interesting thing is that you can choose or not to, but then your companions are also choosing whether or not they want to or not. So if they’ve chosen to do it, that’s another skill tree that you have for them. But if they don’t, they, and it’ll say like, they are not open to this. They are not willing to, although you can still persuade them. You can work on persuading them.

Link Keller (52:17.23)It’s super funny. I’m running extremely high dex, high charisma character, and so with the bonuses that I have, if I roll a persuasion check, basically if I roll anything other than a one, I will pass it. There’s only been like two times that I’ve been like, oh okay, mathematically I can’t reach that one.

Lara (52:17.639)Mm-hmm.

Josué (52:29.953)Always.

Josué (52:36.61)Yeah.

Link Keller (52:46.922)It was very funny when I got to that part where you get the opportunity to increase your brain worm powers and your dream person encourages you to do it. And you can tell them no. And they get they’re like, I really think that you should. And I really think that you should convince your friends also. And I’m like, no, like, don’t get pushy about it. Like, I’ll think on it. And so I was like, I’m going to go to camp and I’m going to talk to everybody. I’m going to feel out the waters and every single person was like,

Absolutely not. That’s a terrible idea. I’m definitely not doing that. And then it’s like my responses either persuade them with like, come on, come on, don’t you, come on, don’t you wanna be powerful? And then just leave is the other option. And so I like walked away, but Wyll was the one person who said something kind of interesting that actually felt like responsive to me is that I went up and asked him about it. And he’s like,

I find it interesting that you’re asking me about it even though you haven’t accepted the powers. I was like, oh, he’s actually paying attention. That’s a really good point. So after I did accept the powers and I walked around to ask everybody, I was wondering if it would be any different, but it’s not really. It’s the same thing where nobody’s into it unless you can pass the persuasion check, in which case I assume they’re immediately like, yeah, okay, and slurp down a worm.

Josué (54:14.734)

[laughs]

Link Keller (54:16.45)You don’t actually eat the worms, but you can. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (54:25.162)I love this game.

Josué (54:25.486)Well, you said the thing about the endings. I know that the game supposedly has like 17,000 permutations or variabilities for the end. And I don’t know how many endings that actually is, but I get that you can have a bunch of combinations of people there and different things, but who knows what the decisions you’ve already made will do towards the end. I’m sure I won’t finish this game, so I’ll never see what happens in the dark urge anyway.

Lara (54:32.347)Mm-hmm.

Josué (54:56.47)Thank you for engaging in this, come on.

Lara (54:57.812)Unless you watch it on a Let’s Play. Or Twitch, sure.

Link Keller (54:59.902)Yeah, or watch the TikToks that come out in two weeks that are gonna be like…

Marc (55:00.588)Mm-hmm.

Josué (55:01.035)See you soon, what I do.

Josué (55:05.686)But I’ll never know what my version of the guy would have been, what his ending would have been.

Lara (55:09.659)Hmm, that’s true. It’s true. Maybe watch a few different endings and see, hmm, that’s the one he would have had.

Link Keller (55:11.302)You just get to make it up in your minds.

Josué (55:18.862)That’s the one. That’s the one. Yeah, could be. All right. Well, thank you for engaging with me in this conversation. I hope it was thought-provoking and, you know, it’s a little tool out there. It’s a conversation starter about some topics that I don’t think, at least I’ve never, again, I’ve never had them come up this way, maybe in books. It’s more, you know, more of a…

A theme that comes up more often, but still it’s not as interactive as this, where you have the options of actually following through. It’s up to you whether you want to follow through with some of those dark urges or not. Things are really cool experience and I’m glad that Larian put that in there. It’s pretty cool. All right. Any closing thoughts? Huh?

Link Keller (55:58.327)Yeah.

Link Keller (56:06.326)I do kind of suspect that originally the Dark Urge was built as that was the intended first experience. I want to say is they got to the point where they were letting some people test it and they realized when Larian Studios put out that first weekend launch and they did a whole bunch of stats. Which by the way.

I love that stuff so much, but they’re talking about like, generally speaking, players, all players from everywhere, like 70, 80% of them will be good. They will always choose the good option. Those numbers change when you get like replays and stuff where people are going back in to see the other stuff like I do. But generally speaking, people, people want to be good. They want to be heroic. And so I think

partway into development. They were like, we can’t have the dark urge be the main character. We have to… People aren’t going to like that. They’re going to be really upset with us. So maybe we’ll change that to like a bonus extra thing.

Josué (57:17.014)I’m glad you didn’t have to unlock it by playing it like doing a first playthrough or anything like that. Yeah.

Link Keller (57:20.654)I am glad of that because I don’t like things being locked, but yeah, I do think that that’s my suspicion, that it was originally planned to be the baseline and then they were like people are going to be really mad about it, we’re not doing that.

Josué (57:38.146)Alright, any closing thoughts Link?

Link Keller (57:40.31)Uh, I love Baldur’s Gate.

Josué (57:44.298)Really? Marc, closing thoughts.

Marc (57:53.381)I almost want to just create a new character and play the Dark urge and just let the intrusive thoughts run wild.

Josué (58:03.766)Yeah, because in real life you can’t do that. Yeah, at bay, yeah, yeah.

Marc (58:08.828)Exactly. I had to keep those in check.

Lara (58:09.681)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (58:11.544)Aren’t you tired of being nice? Don’t you want to go ape shit?

Josué (58:15.246)You

Marc (58:17.709)One day.

Josué (58:17.846)You say that, but you haven’t seen the kind of stuff that goes into this guys’ that the dark urge’s is thinking. It’s pretty messed up. Lara, closing thoughts.

Marc (58:21.966)Hehehe

Lara (58:22.766)Right.

Lara (58:29.135)I enjoy any game that lets me have conversations with friends about, like, oh, you played it that way. I wish they had more stats, like Link said that opening weekend having the stats. I really liked how life is strange. I could compare myself to my friends. And I’m just throwing it out there if they want to do that for the PlayStation 5 for the console version. So that would be great. Let me see how my friends play. But anyway…

I think regardless whether it’s with your therapist, if you have a therapist like me, he’ll listen to you. Or with friends talking about what are the choices you made, whether it’s the dark urge or not. It’s kind of fun to get into that.

Josué (59:16.234)Yeah, yeah, they do.

Lara (59:16.951)Everybody plays differently.

Link Keller (59:19.242)Okay, my final thought is I want to know who… Who are you guys gonna romance? Who are you gonna romance? I chose Shadowheart first.

Josué (59:32.406)I already made out with Shadowheart.

Link Keller (59:34.066)I… They’re… Okay. Every character is both my sweet baby princess and also a little shit who deserves what they get. Um… If I had met Karlach first, I would have chosen her. I feel like she was made for me. Um… But I’m full shadow heart in this run. I love her. I love her so much. She’s my little pastel goth girlfriend.

Lara (59:34.295)I can’t stand any of the female characters so far, so…

Lara (59:47.032)Mm-hmm.

Josué (01:00:06.91)Alright, well, and you can tell us in the community spaces who you’re going to romance. And maybe some of your dark thoughts, but not all of them. Please do not share them all. Share them with your therapist, if you must, and friends and family and your support system.

Lara (01:00:16.644)Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (01:00:20.899)or journal.

Josué (01:00:25.811)Um, links to the community spaces are in the show notes. Remember to geek out and do good. We’ll see y’all next week.

Link Keller (01:00:33.348)Bye!

Josué (outro)Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by Riverside

• Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Baldur’s Gate 3
• Baldur’s Gate 1/2
• Dragon Age: Origins
• Dungeons and Dragons 5th edition (TTRPG)
• Divinity: Original Sin 1/2
• Mass Effect series
• Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic
• The Last of Us series
• TellTale Games
• Depression Quest
• Dexter (TV show)
• Bioshock

Conversation Topics:

* Intrusive thoughts* Change* Consequences* Death* Difficult emotions* Fear* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Guilt* Mental Health Services* Moral dilemma* Power struggle* Redemption* Taking responsibility for one’s actions

Relatable Experience:

* Intrusive Thoughts* Clarity/Understanding* Fear/Anxiety* Guilt* Trauma

Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.com

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Marc Cuiriz 0:11Hello everybody, and welcome to this Barbie tastic episode of GT radio. Where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about

Josué Cardona 0:26the barbies you care about

Marc Cuiriz 0:29the Barbies you care about. I am one of the Barbies here tonight. Marc Cuiriz, and joined with me is Josué Barbie.

Josué Cardona 0:42Yep, yep, that’s me.

Marc Cuiriz 0:44Lara Barbie.

Lara Taylor 0:46Hey.

Marc Cuiriz 0:48And Link Barbie.

Link Keller 0:51Hey,

Marc Cuiriz 0:53how we doing Barbies.

Link Keller 0:55Hi Barbie

Marc Cuiriz 1:01how’s everybody?

Link Keller 1:01Really? Nobody’s gonna say it back? Wow betrayed immediately. I think the patriarchy is in here you guys I’m worried

Lara Taylor 1:12it might be

Josué Cardona 1:12Who’s a Ken in here?

Lara Taylor 1:14listen,

Marc Cuiriz 1:14I’m actually an Allan

Lara Taylor 1:15I am Kenough, okay?

Marc Cuiriz 1:23we’re all kenough

Josué Cardona 1:25what a movie what a movie.

Link Keller 1:26What a movie. That’s cinemaaa

Marc Cuiriz 1:32I yeah, I was not expecting to Well, I was kind of expecting to like go into it with like, walking away with like, things to think about right? Because of like everything I saw on social media because I was kind of late to seeing the movie. But I was still thoroughly surprised as to how much this movie actually made me like, Huh. This is this is something I didn’t, like, I didn’t think about it. In in the way that it was being presented in the movie. Like, patriarchy.

Josué Cardona 2:04Please elaborate.

Marc Cuiriz 2:05So obviously, like I understood, like a lot of the themes, I saw a lot of things on Tik Tok on Facebook and just social media in general of like, how Barbie was a really a movie that got you to like, think about things and sort of view things in a different way. And so I was like, okay, like, I get it. This movie is more catered towards adults kind of with the messages that it’s presenting things like that. And as I was sitting there watching it, and listening to kind of what was going on. I was like, Huh, that’s really interesting. I didn’t really think about it this way. And that, it almost seemed like every, I shouldn’t say almost it was in the sense, like everything was reversed in Barbie land, where Barbies ran everything. And the Kens were just like, essentially the eye candy. But we’re also like, dismissed. Like they weren’t really, they didn’t, no one really paid much attention to them. And then there’s Allan Ken’s best friend that was even more so ignored. And then they go into the real world. And then Ken sort of sort of starts learning about patriarchy, and then he’s talking to other dudes, and they’re like, No, the patriarchy still very much alive. We’re just really good at hiding it now. Like, we just have all these fancy words to kind of sprinkle things over and I’m like, Huh, that like that makes a lot of sense. Like, it’s stuff like I already knew, but to have it just kind of be outright and just kind of like spoken in that way. I was like, yeah, like, wow, that’s, that is that is nothing but hard facts that they are spitting right now.

Josué Cardona 3:56And how Ken’s like, your whole patriarchy is awesome. Like, it really benefits us. We should, we should we should do more of that we should bring that home. We should just embrace it. It’s all about horses.

Lara Taylor 4:10Ken is just a horse girl Ken really just wanted to be a horse girl and the patriarchy kind of ruined that. There are so many wonderful things about this movie, but we’re on the topic of the patriarchy piece. And what I think is what the movie does really well is it shows how toxic masculinity and patriarchy also doesn’t work for men either. And how it puts them in boxes. And literally puts Barbie in a box like but I thought they did that beautifully. Most of the people that I know, present company excluded are that have seen the movie are like queer people, trans people, women and so it’s nice to hear Are somebody thinking about things differently? It’s good.

Marc Cuiriz 5:06Yeah, I was honestly thoroughly surprised to like the patriarchy isn’t about horses? you know what? Screw the patriarchy it’s not about horses. I’m not into it. Let’s let’s just get rid of it altogether

Josué Cardona 5:24funniest thing was to me that they call that the ken called his place exactly what you call your house. Mojo Dojo Casa House. That was such a coincidence.

Marc Cuiriz 5:34Listen, I told you that in confidence Okay. Now I gotta change the name.

Josué Cardona 5:39Oh, sorry.

Lara Taylor 5:42Listen, Ken is such a horse girl that he put on his Mojo Dojo Casa house, he has a saloon the saloon doors and it’s like, Ken saloon or something like that on the front?

Josué Cardona 6:00I am interested in hearing from you, Lara, you said that some of your clients brought up the movie. Very curious, in what context

Lara Taylor 6:11so. And it’s not just clients that have brought this up to me. But I’m friends who and these are mostly trans friends. Talking about it brought up feelings of a lost childhood, especially trans women. And this feeling these feelings of like, I wish I could have played with Barbies like this. And also feelings of like, damn, the patriarchy sucks. But I’ve known that for a really long time. And I’ve been on multiple sides of this and it sucks for everybody. But it’s led to some good conversations about well, you can you can still have these things if you want. I mean, if you feel like you’re past the Barbie stage, that’s fine. You can still play with your video games and your other things. But yeah, it’s been it’s been good to talk about toxic masculinity, patriarchy. Things that I have talked about with clients before. But through this lens, I think it may it brought things up to the forefront that just didn’t naturally come to them as often. So yeah. Plus, we talked a lot about how Ken is a horse girl, and that we are Kenough

Josué Cardona 7:45do you really think he’s a horse girl. I’m just I just wasn’t sure if

Lara Taylor 7:47yes, I really believe that. That’s that he wanted to be a horse girl. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 7:56Um, the toy thing is really interesting to me, because I hadn’t thought about that. I’m, I play more with toys now than I ever have before. Also, I had a Ken doll. By the way, there’s a story I don’t know if I’m just sorry, my sister. It was her birthday. And someone came over. She didn’t know us very well. I believe this is my how I remember it. And so she had a pilot Ken and stewardess Barbie for for my sister. Once you realize that she had that my sister had a brother. She kind of split the present into and then gave me the Ken. and gave my sister the Barbie. When I was a kid, we like my action figures and my sister’s Barbies. It was kind of like in Toy Story, right where they were like, the toys are all mixed up

Link Keller 8:45they play together.

Josué Cardona 8:47Yeah. Yeah. Like Bruce Wayne used to ride in that pink Ferrari. Because it was cooler than whatever. Like, there wasn’t a Ferrari that you could buy for Bruce Wayne, and he needed one. You know

Lara Taylor 8:58he did

Link Keller 8:58plus, if you’re in the pink Corvette, then like the black suit really pops.

Josué Cardona 9:03Oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Again, I’m pretty sure he had a Ferrari. And also like

Link Keller 9:09she’s had a lot of cars

Lara Taylor 9:11she’s had a lot of cars, a lot of cars. I have a trunk

Josué Cardona 9:15literal dream house.

Lara Taylor 9:16I have a trunk in the other room full of my old Barbie stuff. And like, I think there’s one of the I think the convertibles in there. And like an ice cream truck thing, which I love. And a bunch of weird Barbies are in there too. Along with my Power Ranger toys, and my Ninja Turtles and all of that.

Josué Cardona 9:40I know brought this up before but I don’t have anything from any of the toys from my childhood. I don’t have barely anything from like the first 20 years of my life and kind of sucks and I’m overcompensating now. Hard, which is a problem. Yeah, the level Like meta commentary in this movie was impressive. The layers on layers on layers like the fact that the Barbies believe that they represent something that is so obviously good that they fixed the real world. Right. And I thought that that was

Lara Taylor 10:26one of the one of the things that came up for me when I was watching the movie was the commentary about how Yeah, they fixed the world. Barbie is a good thing. And it’s also really messed up, it gives us this picture of what women are supposed to look like. And the standard that no one feels like they can live up to it. There’s a lot of commentary on that. And after the movie came out, there was an article talking about the Geena Davis project or Geena Davis Foundation [note: it’s actually Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media] and research on

Josué Cardona 11:00if she can see it

Lara Taylor 11:00if she can see it, she can be it and like how there was what was it? Like, there was a game design Barbie in a book. And it said that she had to have her friends Brian and Allan, or Brian and Steve or whatever, help her with the coding. She just did the design. And someone a game designer, she pushed back and was like, Listen Mattel this, this doesn’t work. And so they actually made a game design Barbie who sat down at a computer and coded her own stuff as as an action figure. So these are things that like, are both true at the same time.

Josué Cardona 11:42Yeah. It’s like the welfare of like the welfare character, right? He’s like, literally, we’re empowering women. But you know, they can’t do this, or they can’t do that. But obviously, like, you know, we’re all about female empowerment here. I mean, there’s some funnier parts, right? I mean, more ridiculous parts, right? He’s like, Oh, we’ve had one or two female CEOs. Like we all have women in our lives. You know, but but as far as the toys are concerned, right, like he, he seems to believe it’s

Lara Taylor 11:50that he’s doing good

Josué Cardona 12:13doing. Yeah, yeah. But also that, like, realistically, there’s some things that she can’t code, obviously, but she can work in video games. She can’t code. Like, that’s weird. That’s crazy. But it’s true. Right? It was it was awesome to have like the America Ferrera character, and her perspective of the dolls and that her daughter representing that other view of like, Fuck Barbies.

Lara Taylor 12:40literally called her a fascist.

Josué Cardona 12:43Yep, yep. Oh, didn’t feel bad about it. So what is it

Link Keller 12:52did you guys catch that the the four girls that were mean to Barbie. Their names are the names of the original line of Bratz dolls.

Lara Taylor 13:01I did not get that is amazing.

Link Keller 13:04isn’t that a fun little easter egg?

Josué Cardona 13:06that is a fun little easter egg.

Marc Cuiriz 13:09I saw the Tik Tok on that.

Josué Cardona 13:12Oh, that’s good. So So what is what is your relationship with Barbies? Lara, let’s certainly you were talking about you have some in a box.

Lara Taylor 13:22I have a whole bunch. I grew up. I had a bunch of Barbies. I used to play with them a lot. My friend my best friend Brian and I would play in the backyard with my Barbies and my Ninja Turtles and, and his GI Joes. I didn’t have too many GI Joes, but it was really funny having this really tall Barbie, and a ninja turtle that came up to like her hip and the GI Joes that came up to her knee.

Josué Cardona 13:44yup

Lara Taylor 13:45And we were Yeah, we would just like sit in the backyard and dig like pits for like moats around things and put like, and put like, like sticks and things in the yard to make forts and then we would put the Barbie Dream House next to it and then the car and the turtle and the like the Turtle Van. And everything was together. I don’t know like specifically what Barbies I had. Right? I probably had

Link Keller 14:12okay, but I want to know which one was your favorite. And I want to know you I want to know your weird Barbie.

Lara Taylor 14:19Um, so which one was my favorite? Like I said, I don’t know exactly how many like which Barbies I had. I had probably like a stereotypical Barbie and a

Link Keller 14:19so just blonde barbie

Lara Taylor 14:22blonde Barbie. I had a ken, which some of my friends were like, I don’t see that as ken and Ryan Gosling in the in the movie because my ken was brunette. And I’m like, mine was very blonde and had a collared shirt.

Link Keller 14:44That was that was a choice when they first started doing screen tests.

Lara Taylor 14:48Yeah.

Link Keller 14:49Ryan Gosling had more of a like golden beachy wave look going for him and it’s just, he looked to what he just looked like Ryan Gosling and they were like, we really got to change Something so he reads as a Ken. it turns out, super platinum blonde was the move.

Lara Taylor 15:06Yeah,

Josué Cardona 15:07it’s a beach Ken

Lara Taylor 15:08that’s a beach Ken whose only job is to be beach. His job. His job is beach. I know I had a Barbie that had the rollerblades that were in the movie and I love that Barbie. My weird

Josué Cardona 15:17didn’t it like Spark? right like, like when you moved it forward didn’t do like, no, am I thinking of another doll?

Lara Taylor 15:32They might have had some like that. Maybe, but I really want those. They make those rollerblades they’re selling them now I want those rollerblades now for myself. I and one of my favorite things to play with with the Barbies was the ice cream truck. Because it also came with like a little bowl that you could put your ice real ice cream in. It was really cool. And then also the chairs there were like little chairs you could set up that were like they looked almost like martini glasses, but they were supposed to be Sunday like dishes. But my weird Barbie. I think the weird Barbie weirdest Barbie I have was one that my friend my friend in high school started messing with after I did when I was a kid. So I had I cut her hair off. Not realizing that it wouldn’t grow back because hair grows back. And she’s got like a tramp stamp on the back in Sharpie. And some like tears drawn in black Sharpie down the side of her face. And

Josué Cardona 16:42she was going through some stuff

Lara Taylor 16:42she was going through some stuff she really was. Um, and I think currently because we just went through a bunch of boxes recently. I think she’s currently wearing Princess Jasmine’s outfit from one of the Disney. We also I also had like the Disney Barbies, like the the Princess Jasmine and the Prince and Ariel and Belle. But I wasn’t allowed to play with those. Because those were my mom’s. And those were on a display shelf

Link Keller 17:12mmm the collectibles. Yes.

Lara Taylor 17:15So yeah, those are those were, those are my favorites. I have yet to open the trunk in the other room, because it’s locked and I don’t have the key so we’re gonna figure that out. But it will be like a little time capsule of Barbie. So

Josué Cardona 17:34I’m disappointed you didn’t bring Barbies, but I guess if you don’t the key

Lara Taylor 17:41I don’t have the key. I don’t have the key

Josué Cardona 17:44All right, so Link. What Uh, what about do you have a relationship with Barbies?

Link Keller 17:48I do. As a person who was raised as a girl, I received many Barbies as gifts. I only recall like actually picking out like one or two myself. Most of them were gifts or whatever. But I was more of a Beanie Baby kid than a Barbie kid. But I do I

Josué Cardona 18:16that movie also came out just now.

Link Keller 18:17Oh, no, I don’t think I can handle that. Um, but, ya know, I had Barbies. And I had Barbie clothes and some accessories. I had the veterinarian Barbie, because when I was very young, that’s what I would tell everybody I wanted to be when I grew up. My grandmother, before I went to live with her, owned a hair salon, and did hair for her profession. And when she was in the height of that career, she would do hair for, like runway shows. So she’d be like flying out to Germany to do runway shows and stuff like that. And so one of the times that she did that she brought me back a special German Barbie, which was the prized Barbie for quite a while. Right up until I put her hair in a ponytail, high ponytail and chopped it off.

Lara Taylor 19:17That’s kind of what I did.

Link Keller 19:17And then I had I had that immediate realization of like, that’s not how you cut hair. I know better. I’ve seen my grandmother cut hair, you don’t put it all into a ponytail on the top of their head and then chop it off. It makes a very ugly haircut and it does not grow back and so I hid fancy German Barbie way back underneath my bed. Because I didn’t want to get in trouble for ruining my expensive fancy German Barbie which honestly probably was not that fancy or expensive. It was probably just literally a Barbie from Germany. But I hid it for a while and then when I finally got found out and I was like oh this is that I’m gonna get I’m gonna get in big trouble. Well, my grandmother thought it was just adorable that I was trying to cut her hair like Oh, you were trying to be a hairstyle is Oh, that’s so sweet. And I’m like, WOO got away with it? My crimes. but yeah, I had and I can’t remember exactly how she was related to me. I think she was my Grand Aunt. So my my maternal mom’s sister I think that’s how we were related. Anyways, a relative when I would go to North Carolina in the summers as a child, she made these gorgeous Barbie houses rooms furniture out of there’s probably a name for it. I don’t know what it’s called, but that you use like plastic grids. And then you do cross stitch over it with yarn. And then you can tie the pieces together and so she made like, she made me a house and a bed and a couch out of the you know, the plastic and yarn. And I thought that that was so cool. But at some points they got hand me down to somebody else without my knowledge and so they are hopefully still together in some loving home being played with but most likely they got thrown away at some point. But yeah,

Josué Cardona 19:23They’re weird Barbies now

Link Keller 20:33Weird Barbies. Yeah, don’t I don’t have any of my Barbies anymore. I didn’t keep any of those. I kept. I kept my American doll. And I kept my favorites of the many many Beanie Babies I had. But yeah, Barbie Barbie wasn’t as big of a thing for me. And I think part of that was the way that I liked to play with Barbies is just dressing them up and not so much of the imagination play. And I was not I did not come from a wealthy enough family to support the amount of clothes that I would have wanted for my Barbie. But yeah, I I still deeply resonated with the Barbie movie and I think it’s less to do with Barbie itself and more to do with Barbies story and her discovery of the way that patriarchy works and is harming her. And I think that’s, Many non binary people like me felt a very similar way towards that realization and then the sort of off characters of Allan and weird Barbie as being representative of the queer experience. And so I really resonated with that stuff. I love weird Barbie so much so so so much. I do. Kate McKinnon did an interview where she said when when she was talking with Greta Gerwig about being weird Barbie she said hey, you know if we’re going to do this right weird Barbie has to be naked, which in my experience is true weird Barbies. You’re not going to put the clothes on the weird Barbie. So I’m a little disappointed. Weird Barbie wasn’t naked.

Lara Taylor 23:38they wanted to keep that PG 13 rating

Josué Cardona 23:42I can’t believe her arms were where her arms are supposed to be and her legs where legs are supposed to be and yeah

Link Keller 23:47Ooooh That’s my Okay, that’s my other weird Barbie that I didn’t mutilate but I did watch excitedly No, my, my slightly older boy cousin came over to hang out and we were playing and I showed him that I had just gotten one of the I don’t remember if it was McDonald’s or Burger King, but they were doing a Barbie line of gymnast Barbie and like her Her body was bendy.

Lara Taylor 24:15Probably Probably McDonald’s. They usually do Barbie

Link Keller 24:18probably McDonald’s but that is it was you know not full Barbie sizes like little Barbie size and the body was like soft plastic. Basically, he removed all her limbs in and burned off her hair and I kept her, in those pieces, for a While ummm

Josué Cardona 24:42were you upset when he did that?

Link Keller 24:43No, I was I was rapt. I was like I had never even occurred to me that we could do this. I’m sort of looking at my other Barbie is like, hmm, but then I was like, Oh wait, I don’t want to get in trouble because I got scottfree for the German Barbie. I don’t want to this one I can blame on Charlie. It’s not my fault. Oh, but yeah, I did. I did keep that tragic gymnast Barbie as you put her in a little box and cover her with a little napkin and now she’s sick Barbie and Dr. Barbie is coming to treat her

Lara Taylor 25:17huh Mattel put out a weird Barbie that they’re selling after the movie.

Link Keller 25:28[Link makes pained noises]

Lara Taylor 25:28And it’s not weird it’s not weird enough her hair looks so normal and someone I know said that she looks like an eccentric art teacher. That’s about it. Yeah.

Link Keller 25:42Art teacher Barbie,

Lara Taylor 25:42but that that we also we also we also like Googled weird Barbie like just for images afterward because we were looking at what the weird Barbie that we’re selling looks like. And the next image was a Barbie shoved into a coor’s can.

Link Keller 26:03Oh the one that’s flying around?

Lara Taylor 26:04I think so. Yeah,

Link Keller 26:05yeah, no tik tok has been showing me real choice weird Barbie videos. My favorite. Well okay, my two favorites. One is Barbies head and then a weird three pronged stick to her two legs so it’s just head and legs.

Lara Taylor 26:24I feel like Toy Story did weird Barbie better.

Link Keller 26:27Yes. Yes. absolutely

Marc Cuiriz 26:29one hundred percent

Link Keller 26:30But the other really good one. I may have sent it to you guys but a woman when she was a child, her house burned down. And so her uncle went back in and looked around in the wreckage and pulled out a Barbie that had been like underneath something plastic and the plastic melted down over the Barbie and he like cut whatever. It was like a desk that it was on top of any like cut the piece of desk out so she’s got this like what’s it what? I’m trying to make a star wars han solo

Josué Cardona 27:05Han solo?

Link Keller 27:05yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:07carbonite

Link Keller 27:07Carbonite. Thank you, I’m like adamantium is not the right one. Carbonite. So it’s like Barbie Carbonite is very funny. I was like, that’s a perfect weird Barbie actually. Um, but yeah, I am loving seeing people share their their Barbie stuff and talk about, you know, what the movie made them feel and how they felt, you know, connected and seen and loved. And I think that’s beautiful.

Lara Taylor 27:36I think there was a lot of crying during America Ferrera’s characters, like, rant

Josué Cardona 27:42monologue.

Link Keller 27:44Yeah, I got teary eyed during that.

Lara Taylor 27:46Yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:47yeah, my sister hasn’t seen the movie but she told me she’s she’s seen the monologue.

Lara Taylor 27:52It is the truth. Every word

Josué Cardona 27:56Yeah

Lara Taylor 28:00One thing I love that came out of the whole thing was red carpet questions. Someone asked America Ferrera what would what would you bring back from Barbie land if you could and she said all woman Supreme Court

Josué Cardona 28:19Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, at least those

Link Keller 28:25I really, really love this movie. I do. Like there. There are some valid criticisms we sort of touched on. They focused on like, patriarchy and Barbie story of discovering the patriarchy and what that feels like and I think they succeeded very well on that but they did absolutely like sweep away the commercialism and consumerism aspects is like you get a one off joke and like we’re not going to dive too deep in that which I don’t love but I understand however my my one like legitimate annoyance criticism is I really did not like either of the the Mount Rushmore joke and the smallpox blanket. I don’t know if it was supposed to be a joke, joke has got quote air quotation marks on it, but I thought that was really important taste. I wish that they had just cut that completely.

Josué Cardona 29:24What’s the smallpox thing I don’t remember

Link Keller 29:27when the Barbies come back and discover the Kens have taken over and the they say that the other Barbies didn’t have any protection from the patriarchy. And then they analogize that to like the natives when the British came with the smallpox blankets. And it’s like, that’s really not the same vibe

Lara Taylor 29:58No

Link Keller 29:58at all and it feels was real weird and gross in like surrounded by all of these other really, you know interesting ways of engaging with intense topics in it’s just that throwaway line and then the Mount Rushmore is like that’s also not cool for indigenous people but I did love the music.

Lara Taylor 30:25The soundtrack was on fire soundtrack.

Josué Cardona 30:28Okay, well okay, okay on the thing on the music. Yes, this the the matchbox 20 song. Okay, afterwards I was like, I remember the song like what does that even mean? Like I was looking at I’ll look up the lyrics on genius and because the lyrics go, I want to push you around. Right? I was reminded as I want to push you away. But obviously the song is I want to push you around and that felt aggressive

Link Keller 30:55are you getting a hint of sexual violence here?

Josué Cardona 31:03A little bit? yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 31:07Truly the perfect song, though, for that scene of really nailing that like this is so uncomfortable and the playing guitar at a woman. I don’t know if any of you guys have experienced that. But that is not a rare experience. Yeah, I the Billy Eilish song. Yeah, that one that one is still floating around in my noggin. And then I’ve watched the video that they made to go with it a couple of times. I think that one’s really cool. People who haven’t seen it, Billy Eilish has a bunch of like, Barbie sized clothes, but it’s close from like Billy Eilish’s his music career and so from like music videos and stuff. I just think it’s a really cool detail. Especially within the context of this movie being you know, dolls and real women and the crossover and all that stuff.

Lara Taylor 32:07Yeah, yeah. Indigo Girls closer to fine. The second I heard the first layer is like, lyrics to that singing every time it came up in the movie every single time. I know all the words to that song. And the Lizzo music in the beginning. So good. So good. I want someone to just sing about what I do every day, all day.

Marc Cuiriz 32:40Yeah. And just kind of cutting it and be like, Hey, you good every time you like pick a stumble? Exactly.

Lara Taylor 32:47Exactly. Like someone’s just watching. No, I don’t want that.

Marc Cuiriz 32:51Are you Sure. is it what you really want?

Lara Taylor 32:57No. But yeah, it was great. The soundtrack was so good. Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 33:05You know, one of the comments that I had made after walking out of the movie, was I was like, they could not have casted a better person to play Allan. And Michael Cera. I was like, he’s like, I was like, this is like the embodiment of an Allan honestly. And, and then my wife and I, like she was talking to some of her friends that had also seen the movie, and they called me and Allan and I was like, you know, I don’t know how to think about like, how I should how I should take that and like, I they’re like, no, no, it’s like, because Allan was like an ally. He was there. He supported all the stuff. Like he was all for it and everything. And I was like, okay, I can see that. But also, it’s it’s Allan. Allan, like, no one remembers Allan, I’m like, y’know. This is like a backhanded comment, like compliment right now.

Josué Cardona 34:05That wasn’t a compliment.

Link Keller 34:07no, it was a compliment. I love Allan.

Josué Cardona 34:10So Alan is meant to be like, great. I mean, the joke is that he’s invisible. Right? Nobody knows who he is. Nobody remembers him. I don’t even remember. Any of the Kens acknowledging him.

Link Keller 34:22Not really.

Josué Cardona 34:23and He’s supossedly. Yeah, right.

Marc Cuiriz 34:28best friend, but they didn’t acknowledge him at all.

Josué Cardona 34:30Yeah. Just as a side note, right. I think I think Michael Cera. Like, is typecast as that. Right? Right. Yeah. Except in I, but I still remember him and Scott Pilgrim. Were like, he’s not like a great character. But like, he’s,

Link Keller 34:52no he’s pretty bad. Scott Pilgrim is not a Cool Guy,

Josué Cardona 34:56I know, but he kick ass, you know, and you’re that you’re still like that. That’s a quote that I liked the movie and he’s got, you know, like, he’s,

Link Keller 35:05I will give you that Scott Pilgrim is more Ken than Allan.

Josué Cardona 35:08Yes, yes. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Link Keller 35:12No, I like hearing like trans masc people talk about Allan and as sort of representative of the trans masc experience where it’s like, so, so much of your identity is around conforming to and fitting in to Ken’s clothes. But then, you know, when it comes down to it, recognizing that you have more solidarity with the women specifically, but people who are oppressed under patriarchy is like i He’s like, I gotta get out of here. And so I really like that and then you know, with weird Barbie sort of representing like the queer women experience where you have all these similar experiences, but you are still held on like the outside the edges of womanhood and I think that the the gender the gender stuff is really yummy. Which is so I think it’s so interesting because there’s like very little like sexuality represented within this movie. But gender comes up a lot. I think that is really cool.

Josué Cardona 36:18Yeah, yeah. The the Barbie world is so exaggerated, right? Both at the beginning when it when it’s Barbie land, then when it’s Kendom, right, it’s to its to complete extremes. And it’s so I don’t know, I kept thinking. From my perspective, it’s like, they just showed the things that most embarrassed me about other men. Like, like, right, like coming coming from right coming from from from a male perspective. It’s like, Ah, okay, so I saw I saw the movie at the Alamo. And there’s an Alamo right by which also, like, the alamo’s great, right? So like, at the beginning, they had all these old videos and all this stuff is fantastic. Always go to an Alamo if you can. But this Alamo theater is by Wrigley Field where the Cubs play. And I didn’t know that there was a game at the same time as the movie. So when I left the movie, everybody had was leaving the game. And I walk out and the theater is on a third floor and I look out onto the street and there’s people walking around. And there’s a bar right in front. And there’s a guy in shorts with his shirt off and like a backwards hat and glasses on. I was like, it’s like this guy came out of the movie. It was like he was just one of these douchebag Kens that just came out and

Link Keller 37:42he was ready to do beach.

Josué Cardona 37:44He was just doing beach. He that’s all he was doing. At the bar. It was so it was so funny. It’s almost like they hired somebody, like there were Barbies everywhere. And someone’s like we need some Kens in here too. And they they pay this guy but I on on the gender stuff and I mean it can be it can be also, it’s just interesting that so Barbies are the whole world revolves around them right Barbie land. And then Ken feels invisible. And then when he gets the chance to do it, to do like to flip the table, he completely fits the table like exactly the same. He treats them just like they treated him.

Link Keller 38:32No. And I’m gonna push back against that claim.

Josué Cardona 38:34Okay, okay, push back, push back do it do it do it

Link Keller 38:37in the beginning Barbie lands. And this is true within the production of Barbie; Ken is an accessory.

Josué Cardona 38:44Yes, yes, yes.

Link Keller 38:46So he does not have the fullness of personhood that Barbie is given. Right. And so the Barbies do not mistreat the Kens, they don’t give them a ton of attention. And they don’t center them in any way. They’re mostly just ignored. Kens go do their own thing. When they flip it, the Kens put the Barbies in positions of servitude.

Josué Cardona 39:13Yes,

Link Keller 39:13and dress them specific ways.

Josué Cardona 39:16This is a good point. I can’t argue with that

Link Keller 39:17So so that switch is not is not a one for one. It is very much informed by the patriarchal world that Ken saw where women serve and dress the way that men tell them to. So I do i

Josué Cardona 39:36Well, that’s good. That’s good. That’s a good clarification it Well, I

Link Keller 39:39think it’s extra important to point out for us, but I do also think that I hope that lots of audience members did catch that because it would be so easy to just be like well yeah, Barbies did it first and then the Kens just copied them but that that violence and enforcing servitude and all of those aspects that is more correlated to our real life world. And less so the fantastical version of Barbie where the Barbies all have these amazing jobs and do whatever they want, and they Kens hang out and do beach. Not saying that there aren’t women who do beach in the real world. That obviously also exists, but you know, it, it is very much like I and I think that that’s been some of the pushback from people is like, in the way that it resolves the like solution to Ken’s patriarchy is to give him attention. And to tell him like, Oh, you are important, and you do matter. And I’m sorry, I didn’t make you feel that way before, which some people are pushing back against because it’s like, that sort of feels like oh, well, the reason like in the real world we have patriarchy is because we don’t we don’t tell men that we appreciate them enough. And it’s like, Oh, I hope that that is not the takeaway. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 41:12Like, they’re not like intentionally, right. It’s like, they just activated they turned on patriarchy, and immediately the Barbies became subservient. Right. It’s not like it, just like in the opposite way. The kens were just accessories. But once they acted, because I guess it was just Barbie land. Right. It wasn’t it wasn’t representing Yeah, thing, in particular, and once patriarchy came in, they defaulted into. And

Link Keller 41:39I think that that that is such a good opening conversation of the way that we socialized little boys within the patriarchy. And the ways is like, it’s most men who will absolutely utilize the patriarchy to their own benefit. Or like, rationalizing it in that way. They’re doing like that is what was taught to me when I saw and so I’m, they’re doing what they see.

Josué Cardona 42:05So are the women’s, the women’s. Yeah,

Link Keller 42:09yes. And so having that I, you know, it could have gone harder. But I think within the context of the Barbie movie, I think that that was a good way of showcasing both like the way that patriarchy gets passed between men isn’t necessarily this nefarious, like, secret cult of like, we’re now initiating you into the woman haters club is like, no, it’s like, no, you see a guy do a thing and you’re like, that worked for him. I’m gonna try it. And then it’s like, ooh, all society keeps supporting that pattern.

Lara Taylor 42:37I think that leans into the if she can see it, she can be it kind of thing, right? Or she can like, the kens didn’t see patriarchy. And then they this ken saw patriarchy and was like, that’s what I’m gonna do I want that. Um,

Link Keller 42:53well and I think it’s also really important that like Ken explicitly says he’s like, once I realized it wasn’t about horses, I lost interest. And I think that that is also like, reflective of a lot of real men’s experiences where they’re like, I thought like the patriarchy meant I was I was personally going to get a bunch of power and it doesn’t really shake out that way. And they’re like, Yeah, honestly, it kind of sucks. I don’t like this anymore. I thought I was gonna get more horses

Marc Cuiriz 43:22you know, when when I think about like the the when you guys brought up the idea of like the switch between like how it is in the beginning of the movie with Barbie land, and then it switches to Kendom part of me was like, viewed Kendom is like the patriarchy like at its core. So like, you know, like when when Ken’s like talking to all the men in the real world? They’re like, No, no, it’s still around. Like we’re still very much like, this is how we want to do things. We’re just sneakier about it. And so I feel like with Ken he’s like, how about let’s just not make it sneaky? And just like it really just through like the blood through the patriarchy in your face it like it like shoved it down. Your gall. It was like here, you want patriarchy. This is what it will look like. Like this is essentially what it looks like. It’s like most exaggerated form but also in its purest form. I think I

Link Keller 44:12do I do like the the joke of once Ken has become indoctrinated by the patriarchy, he goes to get jobs and he goes to all these jobs where he’s completely unqualified, and it’s just like, Yeah, I can get this job easy.

Lara Taylor 44:28that’s not how it works dude.

Link Keller 44:30That’s so funny. That’s sometimes is how it works. oh man Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 44:37yeah.

Josué Cardona 44:37Cuz you need experience. And he’s like, do I though?

Link Keller 44:40Do I though??

Marc Cuiriz 44:43and the guy is like, no, but like, we have to, like, say these things because it’s just, you know, it’s to cover our bases and make sure that like, people aren’t just thinking it’s like a patriarchal thing, even though in reality, they’re like, no, like, we would probably give you this job if we wanted to. It’s just that we have to, like go through these things because we have to make it seem like the patriarchy isn’t around as prevalent as it used to be. And so, I don’t know, I just felt like that was like an interesting thing of like, it’s like, here you go, you want patriarchy. Here it is. And then just kind of like, having to experience like, the huge like, like the complete like I don’t wanna say 180 Because it’s not a 180 it’s more like a 270

Josué Cardona 45:34Barbie land is like a like an amplifier or something like that right? It’s like introduce patriarchy and boom that’s what you got. You could do a sequel where you introduced some other system

Marc Cuiriz 45:45oligarchy I don’t know I don’t know. I

Josué Cardona 45:49don’t know you get you get you get install some other system right and it would just go to its extreme which is which is like that’s what Barbie land in a way is if you take you know if you take that concept to its extreme as well that any any any new ideas that you introduced to it would be could potentially take over? If the if the Barbies. Why did the Barbie do we know? We don’t get to see? Actually clarify this for me. How does Barbie land turn into kendom? Like how do all the Barbies just suddenly get brainwashed?

Marc Cuiriz 46:32I think the way they interpreted like how they how they explained it was that the barrier between Barbie land and the real world was it was disintegrating basically. So because of that the influences of Barbie land and the influences of the real world they were entered in like a they were intermingling with each other. So if he brings over a real world concept, it’s now manifesting itself in this in this way, so if he comes in and proclaims this, and it’s like a because of that influence like that. It’s almost like a magic thing, I think, where it’s like, oh, we’re bringing because like once he made the Mi casa, dojo, whatever

Josué Cardona 47:17mojo dojo casa house.

Marc Cuiriz 47:18There you go. Then all of a sudden, they’re like, Yo, these mojo Dojo Casa houses are flying off the shelves

Josué Cardona 47:24got it

Marc Cuiriz 47:24because they were really influenced. Yeah, the real world influenced Barbie land to create kendom and then Kendom by that because of that influenced the real world by creating its own line of things.

Josué Cardona 47:41Okay, okay.

Lara Taylor 47:43Yeah, so it was like a magic thing, the same way that like, the deprogramming was literally her going off on this like, monologue and this rant and all of a sudden they snap out of it.

Josué Cardona 47:57Okay okay I’m only somewhat satisfied

Link Keller 48:04Well, I mean what the what you’re talking about is like what they tried to explain with that that line about the smallpox that that was what they were trying to cover that sort of plot hole

Josué Cardona 48:16got it Yeah, yeah

Lara Taylor 48:17yeah, yeah.

Josué Cardona 48:19they had no resistance

Lara Taylor 48:20like they’ve been brainwashed and infected

Link Keller 48:24like it better that it feeds back in like you’re saying Marc I think they should have leaned harder on that but the idea of that the Barbies in Barbie land are Barbies who are being played with by little girls in the real world

Lara Taylor 48:38and so if the if people want these mojo Dojo casa houses

Link Keller 48:41if people buy you know it’s the the hot new ticket and 100 little girls all just got the Mojo Dojo Casa house as their birthday gift

Lara Taylor 48:50then they’re gonna they’re gonna they’re gonna play with their kens, right?

Link Keller 48:53Yeah, it’s a new toy so you play with it because it’s new. I think that would have been

Josué Cardona 48:58Oh, this makes sense

Link Keller 48:59better way to rationalize that change but

Marc Cuiriz 49:03I kind of like to think of it as like there’s a boy out there playing with a Ken doll and just assigned to you know what? Any, like, kicks his little sister out and just takes all her Barbie. Yeah. And creates Kendom and he’s like, this is my mojo dojo casa house.

Link Keller 49:18That would like they could have just done a jump cut to that and it would have been the perfect explanation. Yeah, I did. I did really love the detail of like, the reason that Barbie was like, pretty apathetic and uninterested in Ken is because the America Ferrera’s Gloria Gloria’s Gloria didn’t have a Ken and so her Barbie never played with Ken. I think that that’s such a perfect detail. I do love, off of that. I do love that there are both lesbian readings of Barbie and asexual readings of Barbie with her uninterested in Ken disinteresting ken I think that that’s really cool interesting stuff. I love the idea of of asexual Barbie. I don’t know why that that really does something for me. I’m like Hell yeah, I love that

Lara Taylor 50:11because Barbie is a toy that gets sexualized a lot.

Link Keller 50:16a lot. Its just like, I don’t have genitals!

Lara Taylor 50:19no genitals

Link Keller 50:20I have all the genitals. that line made me laugh really loud. I do I think that also feeds back into the, the pre and post patriarchy moment in Barbie lands of having Barbie is the Barbies have girls night, right? And they spend time with each other. And Barbie excludes Ken and that’s part of why he’s so hurt is that he gets excluded in this way. But why don’t the kens have boys night?

Marc Cuiriz 50:58They do?

Josué Cardona 51:00Well, no

Link Keller 51:00and then when it flips, right? When it’s the kendom and they’re in charge, they still don’t have boys nights. And I think that that is such an interesting discussion about the way that masculinity treats friendships between boys. And that Barbie was feeling fulfilled with her community of other Barbies. She got what she needed from that. But Ken was not getting that from the other Kens. And so he lashed out and tried to change it and they still weren’t showing up for each other in that way and the Barbies defeated them by foisting that aggression towards each other. And I love the idea of like the the solidarity between the Barbies and Allan is what the Kens were missing. They didn’t have that solidarity with each other they didn’t have that shared emotional connection the same way that Barbies do the same way that women often do. I think that’s yummy! yummy discussion stuff!

Lara Taylor 52:02Yeah, the closest they got to a boys night was when they were all singing the matchbox 20 songs or to their to their Barbies.

Josué Cardona 52:12But they needed the Barbies there.

Link Keller 52:13Yeah, like they don’t play at each other

Lara Taylor 52:16that’s why I said, it’s the closest they get and it’s not

Link Keller 52:18the closest they got. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 52:21So there’s that there’s a part where someone says like, where’s like, Barbie has a dream house? Where does Where’s Ken’s house? That’s like, oh, no, does Ken even have a house?

Lara Taylor 52:32It’s interesting because Nina and I watch a lot of HGTV and they did the Barbie Dream House competition where they had everyone come in. It was really cool. They each got a room and then there was a randomizer for the decade of Barbie that they were doing. And they kept making this big deal that one of the rooms in the house was for the first time Ken was getting a Ken’s den in the Barbie Dream House. It was a cool concept. Um, but yeah, Ken doesn’t have a house. Ken has a den

Josué Cardona 53:08a he’s the accessory.

Link Keller 53:09that’s so funny. I don’t ever want to hear the phrase man cave ever again. It should always be Ken’s den. That’s perfect

Lara Taylor 53:19actually I think after the movie.

Josué Cardona 53:21oh, Ken’s Saloon?

Lara Taylor 53:24Maybe after the movie came out, they should like recut the show to make it the Mojo Dojo Casa house in that room is Ken’s den for the first time he gets his own room in Barbie’s house.

Josué Cardona 53:42It’s yeah, I mean, what else like he, he very explicitly was like, Can I stay over? Like, can we be boyfriend and girlfriend? Right? Like just straight up and she’s like, like Link said, like, she doesn’t need that shit. She’s good.

Marc Cuiriz 54:01She’s just living her best life.

Josué Cardona 54:03Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 54:03perfect life.

Josué Cardona 54:05It’s weird. I don’t know exactly. It’s hard to empathize with the character of Ken. When he’s set up as the accessory as like he’s he’s

Link Keller 54:20UH HUH!!

Josué Cardona 54:21right right

Link Keller 54:22Keep going!! follow the thought

Josué Cardona 54:24no, You go you go. Yeah, yeah

Link Keller 54:25no, you follow the thought.

Lara Taylor 54:26you keep following the thought

Marc Cuiriz 54:28You got this.

Josué Cardona 54:31I got nothing. I got nothing I’m done.

Link Keller 54:33It’s hard to empathize with characters that are incredibly flat and exist solely to support the main character.

Josué Cardona 54:43Yes.

Link Keller 54:44Now if we follow that doo doo doo doo little dotted line back to cinema and moviemaking as a whole which Greta Gerwig loves to do. That is a reflection of the way 100 years of movie have treated women characters. And the idea of there’s a woman like what do you why you like mad? There’s a woman character in the movie is like you made her so flat, and so only existing to support this one character like how am I supposed to empathize or connect with that? It’s like, Oh, oop.

Josué Cardona 55:22Yep. That’s it.

Marc Cuiriz 55:24It’s like they’re like, well, they’re in the movie. Like they have their they have screen time and stuff. It’s like, Yeah, but there’s also no personality there. They’re literally just a part of the background almost

Link Keller 55:36an accessory.

Marc Cuiriz 55:37Well, the interesting thing is that this this Ken, his job is Beach, right? He that he doesn’t really have anything to do. But also, this Barbie is like the stereotypical Barbie the standard Barbie, she has no job she does. She does nothing. And she has more personality than he does.

Link Keller 55:57Yup.

Josué Cardona 55:59Yeah. I mean, she has character development.

Lara Taylor 56:02Well, but also her her purpose is

Link Keller 56:05So does Ken.

Lara Taylor 56:06Yeah.

Josué Cardona 56:08Does he though? That’s where I was

Link Keller 56:10He’s not given the same level of character growth and everything. But he does, you know, he has his big song like that is very much a character growth moment for him both like, within the context of the movie, and also, within context of movies, that you have a big song number when a character is going through growth moment. But I do like legitimately think it is impressive to get that level of flatness in, especially in the early Ken. Because Ryan Gosling is so compelling as an actor, like when he’s on screen, like people are like, what’s, what’s Ryan Gosling doing? So, I do think that he did a fantastic job in this role. But I yeah, I totally, it’s very intentional that the way Ken is treated is very reflective of the way that so many female characters got treated in movies, you know, especially in the 60s and 70s. But like, the whole time Yeah.

Josué Cardona 57:11Then then none of that makes sense. Right? Because Because at the end, I was like, I I feel like you want me to care about this character, but I can’t. Because he has been so intentionally, I mean, aggressively flat. Right? Not even just like invisibly flat but just like aggressively flat. So, okay, mission accomplished. Well done.

Link Keller 57:35It’s good stuff. It’s good stuff. There’s lots of really cool movie easter eggs. I mean, the 2001 Space Odyssey opening was glorious

Josué Cardona 57:47that was amazing. That was amazing

Link Keller 57:49but yeah, there’s lots of there’s lots of little movie easter eggs in there that I think are really fun. I gotta say though, I think my favorite moment is when Barbie has flat feet and she goes and talks to weird Barbie as the like the soothsayer The wise man to help you begin your quest. And she holds out the heel or the Birkenstock. and Barbies like heels! weird Barbies like there’s it’s not actually choice like you have you have to pick this one. I love that just from like a storytelling joke, right? Yeah, yeah, it’s like you can’t you can’t you have you have to choose to continue the story. what were some of your guys’s favorite parts favorite joke? one liners?

Marc Cuiriz 58:48that’s a good question. I was not prepared to answer this.

Link Keller 58:53Okay, I’ll give another one when

Josué Cardona 58:56cheater

Link Keller 58:56when Barbie goes back to the dojo Casa house and, and she agrees to what Ken is asking and he goes back inside the behind the saloon door and he just goes SUBLIME!! I teared up a little at that from laughter It was so funny. Truly the like the perfect delivery but then off screen is like so funny to me

Marc Cuiriz 59:34I think really just anything with Simu Liu in it. Like his his iteration of Ken was just

Link Keller 59:43really funny

Marc Cuiriz 59:43just. Yeah, it was so funny. And just like just the cockiness that radiated from it like you could totally tell like, he gave it his all. Like he was 100% in this

Lara Taylor 59:56I loved to hate him I love

Link Keller 59:58He’s got big Kenergy.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:00Yeah, yeah, he’s got that big kenergy and it was perfect and I loved it. I loved it so much

Link Keller 1:00:07yeah, the um the I’ll beach you off. How are you going to beach? off one guy or two guys? We can’t even beach off one guy? that was a good one that was a good joke. It was a really good joke. Side Story I went and saw this in movie theaters. It’s my first time going back to the movie theater Since COVID started very exciting. I went saw Barbie and then I went and saw across the spider verse which was fantastic, but great double feature but that joke specifically the beach off and then in spider verse has the stop talking about your holes. You’re making everybody uncomfortable. Like those. Those two jokes are like, so perfect that they just go together. They’re beautiful. It made me laugh so hard. Fantastic.

Josué Cardona 1:00:57Oh yeah, I think I think my favorite stuff is like the the mojo dojo Casa house and stuff, right? It’s like, Hey, man, you get to name stuff for the first time. What would you name them? It’s like, uuuhh, I think this would be really cool. I went to the kendom the those things I thought were

Link Keller 1:01:22really funny.

Josué Cardona 1:01:23Yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 1:01:24I think some of my favorite parts of the movie were seeing the different Barbies and Kens that were like, historical kind of left out.

Link Keller 1:01:32yeah!

Lara Taylor 1:01:33I was mad that they did not have more Skipper. But I am so glad that they included cockring Ken in the movie.

Lara Taylor 1:01:44midge?

Link Keller 1:01:46I mean, we could we could have avoided Midge.

Lara Taylor 1:01:49Yeah, yeah,

Josué Cardona 1:01:51they spent a lot of time on midge

Link Keller 1:01:55I embarrassed my friend by hooting and hollering when they showed wheelchair Barbie because I thought that that was really cool.

Lara Taylor 1:02:02that was cool

Link Keller 1:02:02And then they also had prosthetic arm Barbie and I got really excited about I didn’t hoot and holler for that one cuz she was in the background. But wheelchair Barbie got like a front and center moment. I was like, WOOO, he’s like, Shut up. You’re embarrassing me.

Lara Taylor 1:02:18One thing that I honestly haven’t seen a lot of talk about it other than a couple articles with some horrible comments is that one of the actresses that played Barbie is one of the Barbies is trans. And that

Link Keller 1:02:28Doctor Barbie!

Lara Taylor 1:02:32Yeah, Dr. Barbie is trans. Which was really cool.

Link Keller 1:02:36I love seeing Dr. Barbie

Lara Taylor 1:02:39this movie was great. So many good things.

Link Keller 1:02:42Gorgeous, gorgeous costume design set design. Fantastic. So it’s like so much of this movie was practical effects, which I think makes it like supreme, sublime!

Josué Cardona 1:02:57sublime!!

Link Keller 1:03:00Yeah, just just a visual treat. Specifically the scenes where they’re going from Barbie land into the real world and they’re on all of the different types of automobile which one very funny joke but all of that was like almost all of that was practical effects. So they like set up the layered scenes in the back

Lara Taylor 1:03:21and had them running.

Link Keller 1:03:23Yeah, parallax effect is what that’s called, but I it looks so good. And then the payoff joke of the the tandem bike and then the three person bike and like eleven in person bike for the Mattel people, that was that was a good good joke pay off. I really enjoyed that.

Josué Cardona 1:03:46There was there was one thing at the end that I’ll just I’ll just end with this that what after like during the credits, they were showing different Barbies, so we’re kind of weird. And then they showed a totally yo yo Barbie. And, and she’s black. And it says like I really yo yo Yeah, I was like, Are they are they continuing to call out like how messed up some of the things were like all the way up until the end was Mattel okay with this? Like there were so many things I was like does Mattel know that we’re that they’re getting called out in the movie?

Link Keller 1:04:21I think I think Mattel was in on it. And that’s why they really didn’t push on the consumerism aspects.

Lara Taylor 1:04:30Yeah,

Link Keller 1:04:30very much at all.

Josué Cardona 1:04:31that was the deal

Link Keller 1:04:31It’s like you can’t you can dunk on us, but like we’re not we’re not going to talk about the consumerism side.

Josué Cardona 1:04:38We’re here to sell dolls.

Lara Taylor 1:04:40Sell some weird Barbies.

Josué Cardona 1:04:43here to sell weird Barbie. I just checked and apparently they are not selling a mojo Dojo casa house,

Lara Taylor 1:04:49probably haven’t made it yet.

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:52it’ll probably be here by christmas.

Link Keller 1:04:53Probably they were like, we are going to make it and then they were like, oh, no, just like Allan and Midge, Nobody is going to buy this

Lara Taylor 1:05:03I think I know some people that would buy it

Marc Cuiriz 1:05:07Josué would buy it

Josué Cardona 1:05:08I would not buy it.

Lara Taylor 1:05:09they could have made it at Comic Con exclusive people would have bought it

Link Keller 1:05:12get a mojo dojo house

Josué Cardona 1:05:14hasn’t been a comic con exclusive

Link Keller 1:05:16just put your your Gundams in there

Josué Cardona 1:05:19yeah. all right any closing thoughts?

Link Keller 1:05:24My my final closing thought is the same one that they ended on in the movie it was it comedy perfection to end with the last thing that Barbie does is sets up a gynecology appointment.

Josué Cardona 1:05:37agreed

Link Keller 1:05:37I thought that was so fucking funny.

Josué Cardona 1:05:39That’s exactly what I said. I was like that was the perfect joke to end on it was perfect. Yeah. Also the Duolingo joke. I thought it was hilarious too, that was great

Lara Taylor 1:05:54Nina Nina laughed at me because I did my Hebrew lesson before the movie started. Yeah,

Link Keller 1:06:04it’s you. You’re that husband? How does that feel?

Lara Taylor 1:06:07MmHMM

Josué Cardona 1:06:11Any other closing thoughts? No?

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:16I like the ruminating death Barbie idea.

Josué Cardona 1:06:19Yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 1:06:20that’s That’s some real there’s some real stuff right there.

Link Keller 1:06:26I look forward to the memento mori Barbie coming soon. 2024 comes with coffin. and urn

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:40and existential dread.

Link Keller 1:06:41The question is Is Barbies coffin Pink?

Josué Cardona 1:06:45Yes,

Lara Taylor 1:06:46yes, of course it is.

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:47Yeah.

Link Keller 1:06:48Okay, Unanimous.

Josué Cardona 1:06:50Yep. All right, Marc, take us home.

Marc Cuiriz 1:06:54Oh, no. No, uh put on the spot. Thank you, everybody so much for tuning in to this week’s episode of GT radio. For all you if you guys want to be included into the conversation, links to all the stuff is in the show notes. And all the community spaces are there as well. You can join in have wonderful conversations about all sorts of other topics as well. Remember to geek out and do good. And we’ll be back next week

Link Keller 1:07:31MMbye Barbie!

Josué Cardona 1:07:34Bye Barbie!

Lara Taylor 1:07:35Bye Barbie!

Marc Cuiriz 1:07:35Bye Barbie!

Josué Cardona 1:07:37Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Barbie / Barbie (2023)
• Ken / Barbie (2023)
• Allan / Barbie (2023)
• Scott Pilgrim vs. The World (2010)
• Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023)

Conversation Topics:

* Patriarchy* Change* Consequences* Cultural representation* Death* Difficult emotions* Family* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* LGBT Issues* Moral dilemma* Power struggle* Standing up for others* Strong female role models* Standing up for oneself* Taking responsibility for one’s actions* Working with others

Relatable Experience:

* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Death* Depression* Disability* Fear/Anxiety* Loss (other than death)* New Life Event (New Rules)

Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.com

GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.org

GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord

GT Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/geektherapy

Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Josué Cardona 0:12Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network, here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. And I am joined by link Keller.

Link Keller 0:21Yo! What’s up?

Josué Cardona 0:23And for the first time ever on the show with me, I think?

Kayla Devorak 0:26I don’t think that’s true

Josué Cardona 0:27with us together. together really?

Kayla Devorak 0:29been together before. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 0:31I don’t know, Kayla Devorak

Kayla Devorak 0:35Hello.

Josué Cardona 0:37I think it’s just us today.

Link Keller 0:39Yeah.

Josué Cardona 0:41So today’s topic is something that we talk about often, like we allude to it, but we don’t, we haven’t spent time talking about it for for a long time. And that is using media, specifically to say something that you feel like you’re unable to say, we often talk about how we, you know, different ways that we can use media to identify and to relate. But there’s so many examples that I have of being able to, like my whole start with this with this concept was me feeling like I didn’t have the words to express myself. And then to be able to just point to a reference or to a show or to a game was invaluable for me. And to know that, you know, we’ve helped a whole bunch of people do that, as therapists, as teachers, just being open to that is really cool. So that’s what I want to talk about today. And I figured I would, I’d start with an example that I just just read like an hour ago. So I’m reading a novel called tomorrow, tomorrow and tomorrow. And it at the beginning, it has, it has a meta example of this, which is even, which I like even more, where it’s these two kids at a hospital and one of them is is sick, because he was in an accident. And the girl that he’s talking to has a sister who has cancer. But like she doesn’t want to talk about the fact that her sister has cancer. So when the kid asked her, the boy asks her how, like, why she’s there, what’s wrong with this sister? And she just says, you know, she has dysentery. And she kind of just makes that makes a gaming reference and doesn’t actually, you know, talk about what it is. And I think he gets it. It’s like, okay, you’re not, you’re not going to really tell me what it is. But I get it. And they just keep talking and playing. And that’s an example of like, oh, you know, like, it’s something serious, but maybe I don’t want to talk about it. Maybe I don’t want to say the word cancer. But here’s a reference that you would understand. People can die from this, people can die from dysentery. And it’s a good reference. So that one just came up that one’s fresh in my mind. So, curious. Kayla? what do you what comes to mind when we when we talk about this any examples that you can think of, or the you’ve you’ve experienced back in the day, or even now with your students?

Kayla Devorak 3:15Um, you know, I don’t know if I use that as much now. I had been thinking about this a lot. And I was like, I don’t maybe I’ve just been removed from it for so long. But my brain goes to this. This book that I’m obsessed with. I’ve talked about it already. But there’s this like, quote, or this part in the book, where,

Josué Cardona 3:46what’s the book?

Link Keller 3:46What book?

Kayla Devorak 3:49It’s the masquerade series. So I don’t know which book there’s three books currently. But basically, she’s an antihero. So if you want to learn more about that, you can listen to that episode, whatever. Whatever, it’s up on Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. But there’s this quote, like she says something someone says something to her when she’s basically like, she can’t figure out what the truth is. And like has a tendency to really not see like the larger picture with everybody or like everybody else, like she thinks she’s the only one manipulating pieces, but other people have agency. And one character says to her, like, you’re gonna know it’s the truth because the truth hurts. And I think that’s useful. When we think about uncomfortable truth truths. We don’t want to know about ourselves, right? Which oftentimes, we find those things out out in therapy, or as we’re trying to unpack ourselves. That’s what came up for me.

Josué Cardona 5:09Do you have you? Could you could you see yourself using that that phrase or that quote?

Kayla Devorak 5:15I could? Yeah, I think I think so. Like, for myself, also, just like for myself, I think I read that. And I was like, yeah, that’s kind of true sometimes. And I think I think definitely, maybe not in those exact words. But I think as therapists you often find yourself saying something similar, right? Yeah.

Josué Cardona 5:45Link what what does your mind go to?

Link Keller 5:48Well, when you brought up this topic, idea, my immediate thought was the scene from Schitt’s Creek, where David tells his friends, basically, that he’s pansexual. But in not so many words, it is couched within a wine metaphor. Which for the people who haven’t seen Schitt’s Creek, highly recommend, but I will read this short section to you. So Stevie, David’s friend says, so just to be clear, I’m a red wine drinker. And David says, that’s fine. Stevie says, okay, cool. I only drink red wine. And up until last night, I was the under the impression that you too only drink red wine. But I guess it was wrong. I see where you’re going with this. I do drink red wine. But I also drink white wine. And I’ve been known to sample the occasional Rosé. And a couple of summers back, I tried to merlot that used to be Chardonnay, which kind of bit complicated. Oh, so you’re really just open to all wines. I like the wine and not the label. Does that make sense? Yes, it does. And I think

Kayla Devorak 7:06that’s perfect

Link Keller 7:07that scene is so good. Because the it’s not a joke about David’s sexuality. The the funny comes from the metaphor of them being in like a wine aisle in a store having this conversation. And Stevie is a little uncomfortable. And so couching it in that metaphor, but then totally understanding what he’s saying and affirming that, and it’s just really beautiful. And it’s something as I don’t identify as pansexual, I identify as bisexual, but functionally, in this instance, applies the same way. And so it felt very much where I was like, hooting and hollering and pointing at the TV going “it me! it me!!” Yeah. And so I haven’t really had to, like, Come out to anybody in that way. But like, if I was this, I would just send them this scene on YouTube. I have definitely heard from not personal acquaintances, but people online. I have heard them talk about, like, legitimately used this line, use this scene to come out to their family as a way to be all like, I hope I hope having this language will help somebody understand what I am trying to show them about myself. And when it works. It’s beautiful.

Josué Cardona 8:30I love it. it Me. It me.

Link Keller 8:32it me!!

Josué Cardona 8:32That’s it. Yeah. You know, the, I don’t think I’ve ever told this story on the show before. By the way, this is the 300 and 60th episode. So 360.

Link Keller 8:42Wow,

Josué Cardona 8:43that’s kind of cool. So for 360 episodes, I don’t think I’ve told this story. But I was once in a enrolled in a MBA program. And one of the first courses that I took, you know, you had to buy a book, and it came with a DVD. And the DVD had film clips had scenes for movies. And this professor, or the way the book was written, was that it was demonstrating business concepts through scenes in popular movies. That was so helpful to me as a student, whether I knew the movie or not just like to see this story version, right? This this dramatized scene to explain different concepts that we were recovering in the MBA program. I thought it was so cool. So once Geek Therapy started, like I noticed I was doing that for other things. Like oh, I don’t know how to say this. But that’s it. That’s exactly it like that. Feeling that emotion that look on that person’s face. That’s how I feel that situation that just happened that that’s me. That’s exactly how I feel. And it has been, it has been so helpful. It has been helpful in multiple ways sometimes to actually explain to someone else Like, like, if I was pansexual, I would send him that that link, right i that, that that scene. I think that’s, that’s great. And there’s there’s lots of different examples like that that I’ve had over the years. But then some of them, I’ve also had that experience, but it’s like, by seeing it externalized and seeing someone else going through it, but me not having been able to like, I didn’t even realize that I was going through it until I saw somebody else go through it. And to see that in a scene is really cool. One version that I have talked about in the past was, there’s an episode of Doctor Who with David Tennant, where he realizes that, like, he’s beginning a transformation, but he realizes that that transformation isn’t immediate, like, the moment that he realizes that it’s gonna happen. He’s like, Ah, shit. It’s gonna happen. But then he’s like, oh, wait a minute, but it’s not. It’s not. It’s gonna take a while. So then he goes, and he takes the time to say goodbye to his friends and do all bunch of stuff. I remember the first time I saw that scene, I was frustrated because I was trying to lose weight. And I just couldn’t do it. And watching that scene, I was like, Oh, right. Like, this is a process. This is something that takes time, this isn’t something that just happens from one day to the next. I have, like, there’s stuff to do. It’s not going to happen from one day to the next. And it was it was so weird. It was like a mirror like being like just seeing it. Seeing my I saw myself in the character. And of course the show has nothing to do with that. That scene has nothing to do with what I was thinking or how I was feeling. But that’s what that’s what came to mind and I’ve I reference it often when I when I kind of want to convey that idea because sometimes it’s easier for me to say you know to bring it up in that context than it is for me to just say the words like hey, it’s a process it takes time. I know. you know but there’s there’s different there’s it’s a very different emotional vibe depending on the on like the piece of media. any other examples? Kayla’s like thinking so hard I wish y’all could see

Link Keller 12:24I have another one Jim from our flag means death. non binary royalty. Again, haven’t actually had to use this in my real life because I don’t meet new people. But if I were to try and explain non binary in an accessible mediated way, Jim would be my go to, especially the scene where after Jim’s truth has been revealed, and the rest of the crew is like what do we do now? Like what what’s the vibe what and Jim’s like, nothing’s changed. I’m just Jim. And everybody’s like, Yeah, okay. And are just on board with it. It’s so great. I love it so much. I love Jim. God. I wish we had a release date for the next season. AHH

Kayla Devorak 13:23Been waitin’ a while,

Josué Cardona 13:27wait a minute. What is the actor’s name?

Link Keller 13:33Vico Ortiz. Which, like I like the character to explain non binary identities, but also the real person who is very openly queer and fantastic. And I love them very deeply. And also, they have become my like fashion goals. Because I think they look so sharp. And I’m very jealous

Josué Cardona 14:07I fully support like building up a catalog. You never know when you’re going to need those scenes. You never know when you’re gonna

Link Keller 14:13Yeah, kinda. Yeah. I’m trying to think what,

Kayla Devorak 14:18for when you meet a stranger

Link Keller 14:20for when that maybe eventually happens? Um, no, I mean, like, one of the things I struggle with, as far as non binary representation goes is like there’s not zero like there are characters that are canonically non binary, and it’s within the context of the show. A lot of the times they are non human characters, we get a lot of Shapeshifter aliens. I can’t double trouble that’s not their name. The shapeshifting character from she-ra and the princesses of power, who I did really like that character, but it feeds into the same thing where it’s like A lot of nine non binary characters will be you know, robots, androids, shapeshifters, some sort of humanoid alien, creature, non human. And so one of the things that is special about Jim is like, is this show about pirates? Like there is some fantastical elements, but ultimately it is within our existence. And so is like that that is a regular human person. That’s like me, it me! it me!!

Josué Cardona 15:33What is okay, I don’t know why I can’t remember this. well because ADHD, probably why? There’s a word for when you get put on the spot, and you have difficulty explaining something. And I’ve heard it thrown around recently,

Link Keller 15:50stage fright?

Josué Cardona 15:51No. I was trying to google it now and I cannot find it. Actually, let me ask GPT real quick.

Kayla Devorak 16:05I’m sure they’ll know. They might lie to you.

Josué Cardona 16:08They might Yeah, but at least I’ll feel better.

Link Keller 16:10I’ll tell you the truth, but they will make up fake resources.

Kayla Devorak 16:15Exactly.

Josué Cardona 16:19They’re calling it expressive aphasia. I

Kayla Devorak 16:23interesting.

Josué Cardona 16:25Maybe. Is there another? Oh, ah,

Kayla Devorak 16:33that’s, that’s very interesting.

Link Keller 16:36That sounds like less like explaining something and more just like hearing expression of your own emotional state.

Josué Cardona 16:43I found it okay. No, it gave me it gave me the answer. Eventually. I alexithymia. That’s the one I’m thinking likes the term anemia, a term used to describe difficulty in identifying and describing emotions, which can sometimes be interpreted as difficulty in explaining one’s internal state. That’s the word I was thinking of.

Link Keller 16:59Okay.

Josué Cardona 16:59Thanks, Chat GPT. So I feel like this is very relevant for anybody who, who has alexithymia. And I’ve been thinking about that term a lot lately, because I’ve seen I’ve been observing and my job, where sometimes, like, I get put on the spot, and suddenly, I’m like, blehgbleghblagh. And I see it happening among other people as well. And I’m like, man, like, maybe put it in writing. Because like, when to put on the spot. It’s hard. It’s hard to explain stuff. And, and I mean, I’ve been like that since I was a kid. That’s why I love this idea of being able to say ‘it me’ that that’s it. That’s how I feel. That’s the thing.

Link Keller 17:33it meee

Josué Cardona 17:34Now, with clients, I used to have this experience a lot, because I would have them either play something or watch something, or read something in session. So to see someone be like, Okay, I know, yeah, let’s just read some comic books. You don’t want to talk today. No problem, you know, if anything comes up, let me know. And then to have somebody say, like, Batman and Robin, like, that’s like me and my dad, or like, oh, that Green Lantern series where he’s like, he he’s being shown different versions of himself across different universes. That’s how I feel. Because when I’m at different houses, I have to be a completely different person. And, and I don’t like that. It’s like, Oh, okay. And it was just basically, it came up for them because of media. It’s like, that’s it. It me. That’s the name of the episode it me.

Link Keller 18:23It me.

Josué Cardona 18:23It could be. Yeah. So I used to see that all the time. And I think I think it just something so powerful to just let it happen. Instead of I mean, you can kind of set it up, right? Like, you could do it in a way where you were like, okay, all right, Link is my client today. See, maybe our flag means death, maybe, maybe I can show one of these episodes. Maybe it’ll resonate, you know, but and, and that works to, like, you know, let me know, is this how you feel? But even better than then when you kind of set it up that way? Or see how you do feel, I think is also the opposite, where it’s where you’re like, oh, that made me feel terrible. Like I hate that scene. I hate that so much.

Link Keller 19:16Yeah.

Josué Cardona 19:16Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why is it that you’re feeling that way? Because that’s the opposite of me. I would never do that. That’s the That’s the opposite of what I would do. That’s the opposite of how I feel.

Link Keller 19:27That’s a representation of the shadow work I’ve been avoiding.

Kayla Devorak 19:32Yeah,

Link Keller 19:33no, thank you. ‘it me’ but with a really sad face.

Josué Cardona 19:40Does it happen that you that you’re watching something and you just get so pissed for that reason? Because like, you would never know.

Kayla Devorak 19:46oh Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 19:47Yep.

Josué Cardona 19:48Any examples recently,

Kayla Devorak 19:50any any examples recently?

Josué Cardona 19:51Yeah. Are you I mean, ever?

Kayla Devorak 19:54Well, Alex from Supergirl drives me up the wall. I just finished Supergirl. So I think actually messaged Lara was like, I really do not like Alex like I just, she’s just

Josué Cardona 20:09was Lara okay with that?

Kayla Devorak 20:10No

Link Keller 20:12[laughing] no

Josué Cardona 20:12I didn’t think that would go well

Kayla Devorak 20:22I mean, I suppose you could use the relationship between Lena Lena Luthor and super girl as, as a reflection of somebody, like, if they’re in a interesting friendship friendship with their best friend. That’s a whole interesting dynamic that you could potentially use as people try to navigate complicated feelings towards their best friends.

Josué Cardona 20:53Yeah, this is why I’ve, this is one of the reasons why I, I mean, I don’t read a lot of fiction, but now that I’m reading more fiction, I’m pushing myself to read romance and friends to lovers and all this kind of stuff, because I’m like, I never never I don’t I don’t want to, I don’t want to I don’t want to deal with that. Outside of my general life, and I’m like, Okay, let’s see. That’s why like this book this tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow, is, is all about that. It’s about these two kids who meet and like, they, they, I think that they’re best friends. And they start making video games together.

Kayla Devorak 21:29Fun.

Josué Cardona 21:29And yeah. And so I don’t know. That’s all I know about it. But I was I was intrigued. I heard it was pretty good. Book Talk recommended it. So you know,

Kayla Devorak 21:39speaking of books, there’s, there’s a series that I really like, magic of the lost there’s supposed to be like a trilogy. So the first two books are out the unbroken and the faithless. But in the unbroken. There’s this saying that they’re not like, so there’s, it’s rooted in like, colonialism. And the oppressor, you know, being had the kind of having a revolution and like being kicked out of the land that they are occupying. But they don’t the, the people, the indigenous people to, to the land, don’t actively talk about, like, I don’t really talk about the revolution, right? Instead, they say, be the rain, because it’s also a really dry area, it’s kind of modeled after Morocco. And so when you think about it, right, like, they’re communicating something, like be the rain, be be the hope for the next tomorrow, or that there will be you’re not going to suffocate under these, these people anymore. And it becomes like a mantra throughout, like the whole book. And then at the end, like, there’s a whole big scene, where they’re, like, be the rain. Which I think is interesting when we think about it. When for me, when, when I first read it, I was like, Yeah, that makes sense. I feel that I have been there. I get that as somebody who participated in the 2020 protests here in Minneapolis. So I think it was a really pivotal first time reading it. But I think you can use it in relation to a lot of things.

Josué Cardona 23:37So like, what was it? Like for you, then when you read it? Did you like what what were your feelings?

Kayla Devorak 23:42Yeah, we you know, so it was like kind of, like, you know, take it like, reading it the first time. I was like, yeah, that felt that feels like how I felt in those moments. Participating in those in those protests and being down there with everybody else who were showing up because enough was enough for them. Right? In the same way that it was kind of playing out in a in a similar way. In this book, right. But but instead of you know, that, you know, they had to be like sneaky so they didn’t get in trouble. Right. So they came up with a different kind of saying and I think when you wait for rain, in a drought, but you can be the rain, right? Like you can be that change.

Josué Cardona 24:37Yeah. This This reminds me like there’s a big difference between watching something and getting a trigger, right or getting activated by something because it reminds you of a traumatic time. Like this could have been something like that right for you.

Kayla Devorak 24:57yeah

Josué Cardona 24:58But in this case, it seems like It was more like, Fuck yeah. Right.

Kayla Devorak 25:02oh yes

Josué Cardona 25:02Like that’s, that’s, that’s that’s what it was like, right? It wasn’t it wasn’t a reminder of a bad day. It was a, it sounds like it was a reminder, or it was representative of it resonated with you because it represented your how you felt at that time. The parts that were like the reasons why you were there the reasons why you made it. Yeah. Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 25:15absolutely.

Josué Cardona 25:22There’s a huge difference. triggered by something you’re like, no trauma and get away from.

Kayla Devorak 25:36Absolutely.

Josué Cardona 25:37And just being like, Huh, that’s a good representation. At that time.

Kayla Devorak 25:43It was like, validating, in a way. Yeah. Which is interesting for like a book of, excuse me, a fiction, like, a fictional book to be able to produce. Yeah, in you.

Josué Cardona 25:58Where’s your be the rain tattoo?

Kayla Devorak 26:01I don’t have that I do have a sticker though. Because I pre ordered, I pre ordered the second book. And part of pre ordering the second book was the author, she sent out stickers. And that was one of the stickers.

Josué Cardona 26:17Now, do you like I hope we’ve we’ve painted a clear picture for listeners of like, what, you know, the concept of what we’re saying, just basically using media as a representation of something that you know, of your feelings are of a particular experience. And so do you all find it easier to or do you resonate more with with scenes like that? When it’s in a book in a comic book in a, in a movie, in uh, and we’ll get to this in a bit. But also, I want to connect this to d&d, and like, being able to create those those moments, right, where you like, Oh, this is familiar. I think I’m gonna, I’m gonna play. I think I know how this plays out. I’m gonna play it this way.

Kayla Devorak 27:03I’ve seen this film before.

Josué Cardona 27:05yeah yeah yeah. And I will be the rain. Yeah. So is there a particular medium that you find that you resonate, or you have more of those moments of resonance?

Kayla Devorak 27:21I’m not always the most active like show watcher. So like, I mean, I think I consciously paid attention to maybe 45% of Super Girl. And like, had it on in the background as I was like, reading or whatever. So I was like, I’m not always like, super engaged in the stories that I’m seeing on TV. Which is a different experience for reading. For me reading is much more immersive. Yeah. And kind of always has been like I can take basically get really visual with it. And I think I find reading something that’s like really pivotal or like, impactful to, at times be more meaningful for me than seeing it on TV, though. I have had moments where I’ve been like, Oh, shit. Like, there is a very, there’s a very distinct reason I don’t like Alex, and it’s more trauma based than anything. I think she’s too much of a cop. And I have a real hard time with those characters who just run in. guns blazing. Don’t ask questions. Want to be super rigid?

Josué Cardona 28:37It is a cop show.

Kayla Devorak 28:38It is a procedural? You’re right. Yes.

Josué Cardona 28:40Yeah. Yeah. And also, it’s like, what is the agency called?

Link Keller 28:45Shield?

Kayla Devorak 28:46DoE? It is. It’s shield. Like

Josué Cardona 28:52department of?

Kayla Devorak 28:55Yeah, it’s the it’s called the DEO, listen, I only watched

Josué Cardona 28:59this is the

Kayla Devorak 28:59I only watched Supergirl for Lena Luthor, and Supergirl.

Link Keller 29:03Fair enough

Kayla Devorak 29:03For the subtext. That’s really all I did watch it.

Link Keller 29:07I think I think for me, I agree in that books. Like I think I think part of it is like, purely the medium, right? Is that in books, you are just reading and engaging your minds in that way. You’re not seeing pictures, you’re not hearing music. You’re just the book and your brain gets to fill in what it what it wants from there. And so I think it’s easier for us to apply that to ourselves because it’s not tied to a person who exists has form takes up physical space when you’re watching, you know, TV shows, even animated stuff is like, obviously I’ve had a lot of really impactful movie moments and TV show moments. But I think just just the aspect of like, I can be like, well, that person is like me, but because they don’t look like me. There’s just a little bit of a distance there. But with books, it’s you can be a little bit more loosey goosey with it. Obviously, that’s contextualized some books are very obvious about who their characters are. And it’s like, well, that’s definitely not me. But because you’re not seeing somebody say those things is like you can be all like that was said to me, for me. I think comics are sort of in between, because like books, they have more space for us to just sort of imagine and fill in the, in the gutters and stuff. But again, because there is already like a character design applied to it, sometimes it makes the just adds a little bit of distance. And I think it that means it’s still a good tool for using to connect with people. Partly because of that little bit of distance. If you, for example, what happened to me this weekend is I brought up the locked tomb, and I was very excited about it. And the person was like, oh, yeah, I started reading that book. And I returned it immediately, because I hate the way that it’s written. And I’m just like, I’m glad I practice Geek Therapy all the time, because I’m not taking that personally. A couple of years ago, that might really hurt my feelings.

Josué Cardona 31:16She just yucked your yum. Not deliberately,

Link Keller 31:21I don’t think she realized like I brought it up sort of nonchalantly, so I don’t think she realized she was yucking a big yum for me so much is just like, oh, you mentioned a book. I don’t like that.

Josué Cardona 31:33Yeah.

Link Keller 31:34But But yeah, I think having that little bit of space did make it a little bit easier if you don’t get the reaction that you’re hoping for. Maybe it won’t be personalized and hurtful. or less so.

Kayla Devorak 31:50Such a disappointment. It isn’t. It’s written differently. But it’s a really fantastic book.

Link Keller 31:57I mean, the reasoning she gave us she didn’t she doesn’t like sci fi written in present tense. I don’t have beef with that I can understand why somebody might it’s not your style, it’s not to your taste, obviously you bounced off of it, because that’s the way that it’s written. So, um, I get it. But yes, it was obvious. I’m using book example here. So it doesn’t really fit with what I was just saying. But that’s fine. You guys get it. The point being is like, it gives you a little bit of space. I like the idea of I mean, God, I do need therapy. But if I if I were to get a new therapist, I would probably put together like a PowerPoint to just explain, you know, my basic background and everything. And I would I would absolutely fill it up with like gifs and shit from from shows that I like and quotes from books that I like to be like, here. I’m trying to I’m trying to paint you a picture about who I am as a person.

Josué Cardona 32:58That’s interesting for me, because I think you’re partially because I have aphantasia I can’t picture anything that I’m reading in a book. So since I can’t visualize

Kayla Devorak 33:06I’m so sorry.

Link Keller 33:08That’s so cool. Yeah, I think this is great. This is great for the conversation.

Kayla Devorak 33:11It’s great. But I I

Link Keller 33:14I’m sorry for you.

Kayla Devorak 33:15I’m sorry. That you the visual. I mean, that’s that’s partly why I like books is because I can it’s like a whole thing.

Link Keller 33:24You get your own little movie experience.

Kayla Devorak 33:26That’s right. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 33:28It’s I can’t do that. Um, for me, there’s nothing like super expressive anime. Or, or a movie, right? Where like, somebody’s just sobbing are like, like, someone’s acting, right? Like, I appreciate it so much. And it really helps me be like, Oh, that’s a feeling. That’s the feeling that I’ve got. Because I can’t, I can’t draw for shit. I can’t picture it in my mind. So to be able, that’s why it’s so important for me to like, oh, that picture it was it’s been captured right there that process from serious to sad or to happy or whatever. That is, is so so helpful for me. And I don’t know there’s something also like the dynamic nature of it. And, for example, my I think I’ve done a good job in helping my own therapist understand how I’m thinking. So one time she was like, oh, Josué, I get the feeling that your brain is like, she goes, have you ever seen the movie eraser? I was like, like Arnold Schwarzenegger and, and Vanessa Williams. She’s like, Yeah, that was like, Yeah, that’s a deep cut but Yeah, I’ve seen it. She’s like, do you remember there was a scene where he throws a bomb, and the bomb jumps up into the air, and it breaks up into a bunch of little bombs. Right? And I was like, yeah, like a scatter bomb. She’s like, yes, like, you seem so scattered right now. Like your brain. It’s like, it’s like, like a bomb from eraser. So, so, right. She’s like, it goes like, this is going in all directions. I was like, Yeah, So now whenever I’m like kind of scattered in a session like will refer to that eraser bomb and like I know exactly what it is. And I have that, you know, like I can the movie version of like flying all over the place on many different directions. And it’s it’s things like that right like yeah, no, absolutely. That’s my brain. That’s my brain right now. Thank you. Thank you for the visual. It’s been

Link Keller 35:22great

Josué Cardona 35:23and super helpful. Yeah, yes,

Kayla Devorak 35:24that’s amazing.

Josué Cardona 35:25Yeah,

Link Keller 35:26I do. I do think that that talking about your aphantasia, I do think that that is really important to touch on for us, because, you know, a lot of therapists and educators and social workers listen to us. And I think that that’s really important to recognize is like, yes, using media to connect with people is really important, valuable works well. It does require understanding the person who you are talking to, like, if you keep quoting poetry at someone who’s like, I don’t read poems, I don’t see the imagery in my head. I don’t feel it the way that you feel it, you’re just gonna be hitting, hitting a brick wall. And so finding the thing that that they do connect to, is really important.

Josué Cardona 36:17Yeah, also have a type of face blindness, right? Which is like prosopagnosia. And that one, it’s like, I can’t even draw my emotions. You know? Like, I can only do emojis.

Link Keller 36:31See, talking about that makes me wish that Lara was here because she watches all of the medical procedurals. But I think that that that would be a good thing for this topic. Is that there? Like there are examples of, you know, rare diseases and disorders that show up, you know, on scrubs and Grey’s Anatomy and Chicago, 911, or whatever. And people get to be like, did you watch that episode? Because they talked about that disease that I have, like, isn’t that cool?

Kayla Devorak 37:00Oh, yeah. I mean, it’s a great example. Yeah. My wife is has heterotaxy. And

Josué Cardona 37:06what is heterotaxy?

Kayla Devorak 37:08Great question. So

Josué Cardona 37:11which episode should I watch?

Kayla Devorak 37:12I think you can see it, I think you can see it on ER, and Grey’s Anatomy. But basically, it’s when body parts are mixed up. Like, I think one of the episodes in like, er, the heart was like, on the opposite side of the body. They were like, oh, it’s not working. In in her case, like, it’s different, really, for everyone. But in her case, it caused her to have half a heart. So and then, like, other kinds of organ stuff. But like the, like, people don’t really know about it. Right? Like, it’s it’s rare. And she’s like, one of the oldest living

Link Keller 37:49Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 37:49with her condition. And but I think we I remember watching, we were watching like, er, Grey’s Anatomy once she’s like, Oh, yeah. That’s me. Like, you can’t find his heart. on the wrong side. You know? Yeah, yeah.

Josué Cardona 38:08That reminds me shit.

Kayla Devorak 38:11That’s actually what I tell when I will tell people I will be like, Yeah, you know, like, you ever watch Grey’s Anatomy and like, there’s like an episode where it comes up, and they’re like, oh, yeah, okay.

Josué Cardona 38:23Okay. There was a, there was a show that I watched. I can’t remember what it was right now. But where there was a mother with bipolar disorder. And they showed it from the kids perspective, how the mom was just so tired some days, you know, like how she was, she was so excited, and was able to, to, I don’t know, like, be so fun, right. And then after a couple of weeks, like she she’d slow down and then be unable to get out of bed. And I remember being it being the first time where I was like, that’s exactly what it was like to live with my mom. Like, that was my experience. That’s exactly what it was like for me. And to be able to see it that way. Like, I don’t think I’ve ever had really the the ability to describe it. And I still don’t, as well as that show, was able to demonstrate it. And I remember it was in mythic quest about other Have you seen mythic quest? Yes. So remember the show? So it’s the it’s the flashback episode when he’s he’s thinking when his mom takes him to the paint store. Yep. Right. And then afterwards, right, she’s she’s in bed, and she doesn’t want to get up and she’s just like crying and like that scene in that show. That shows I think that shows great.

Kayla Devorak 39:39that show’s fantastic Yeah

Josué Cardona 39:42And so that episode in particular, I was like, That’s it. That’s that was my childhood. That’s what my it was my experience, and it was my mom’s experience. And I had never I feel like I was never able to describe it. And I’d never seen it before, other than the version that I lived through. That shit’s powerful.

Kayla Devorak 40:01Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 40:02And helpful. Very helpful.

Link Keller 40:07Yeah, I think it’s like it’s powerful in like the internalized experience of getting to see an aspect of you reflected

Kayla Devorak 40:15Yes.

Link Keller 40:16And then the secondary benefit is being able to use that as a way to explain to other people. Or like you, you said earlier Josué is using it as shorthand for which that’s media, baby, Is it is it is the way to communicate. And and so it is a way to communicate how our internal experience is. Yeah. Fantastic.

Josué Cardona 40:42Yeah. Yeah.

Link Keller 40:43I thought of another example, but it’s not about me.

Josué Cardona 40:48Okay.

Link Keller 40:49I mean, I guess, anyways, the show fleabag, which I love so much. Such a great show, it’s two seasons, highly recommend it, it is worth it. The second

Josué Cardona 41:00I started watching it, I immediately sent it back to the store.

Link Keller 41:03No!!! that’s heartbreaking. But after, you know, without getting like into the nitty gritty details, the first season ends with this big blow up between the main character fleabag and her sister. And then the second season starts and fleabag has, they haven’t reestablished their relationship, but fleabag has gotten better within her own life. And she goes to this dinner with her dad, and soon to be step mother, and sister and the sisters husband and, and the priest,

Josué Cardona 41:42and the priest

Link Keller 41:42and the priest, we love the priest. But they have this relationship dynamic within the family where the fleabag fleabag is the fleabag of the family, and everybody treats her like that, and she expects to be treated that way. But in this new setting, they’re all coming back together, there’s this moment where you’re like, Oh, the family is gonna notice how much fleabag has changed and improved, and someone’s gonna comment on it and like, be like, That’s great. We love that for you know, they reinforced the old, just sort of abusive relationship interactions that they all have with each other. And I used that as a way to explain to a friend that it’s like this feeling of when you go home. And you’re like, I feel like I’m a teenager again, my parents won’t stop treating me like I’m a teenager. And then I react to that as though I am a teenager. And I don’t know what to do with this. And I was like, have you seen fleabag just be able to like, look, look this it’s not just you, this is the thing that happens where people like, you have a baseline understanding of the way people interact within this group. And so you follow the script that applies to it, even when, obviously, people grow and change and, and our relationships grow and change. And so it’s like, the flexibility should be there. But it’s not always there. And sometimes people just fall back on their old habits. And it can be so frustrating, and exhausting. And then the way that you know, that scene in fleabag ends up shaking out is fleabag does something really, really powerful and selfless for her sister, but in a way that fulfills all of the expectations that all of her family already has of her. So it’s this really great, like two steps forward one step back moment for her, but because we have seen that she’s had some sort of growth, we’re hoping there’s like you see it too, right? fleabag Do you see it? It’s not like, Oh, you’re gonna be okay, baby. And she was and she was okay. It’s a good show. Everybody should watch it.

Kayla Devorak 43:55That’s a perfect example of family systems.

Link Keller 44:00yes

Kayla Devorak 44:00When you when you leave a system, right? That system is going to equalize and continue to do its doing while you’re off doing your own thing and changing as a person. And which is why when we go home, we feel that way, right? Because we’re reinserting into a system that isn’t necessarily changing. It’s just finding a new way to equalize without you actively in the system all the time.

Josué Cardona 44:26Question I like it’s like, you know, what TV family is your family

Josué Cardona 44:31oh man you should make that a whole thing

Josué Cardona 44:32that question is very insightful. I know. I know. That’s actually should be a topic that I’ll set it aside so we can talk about it another day. Kayla, you did mention before the example of be the rain and how it was, like validating and I think I think that’s a part of it that we haven’t really talked about, but I just want to reference that That also applies to the fleabag example, where maybe you’ve you’ve, you didn’t, it’s not just helpful because it helps you express something that is hard for you. But also sometimes you think nobody else has experienced this. And just by the act of existing in a story you you believe, possibly you see it as like, Oh, I’m not alone in the world. Someone cooked this up. There’s probably other people who either have lived through this and possibly even feel the same way about about watching this as I do. Yeah. Kayla, you said you had one more example?

Kayla Devorak 45:34Yeah, I was thinking about the Guardians of the Galaxy video game. I don’t know if either of you played it

Josué Cardona 45:43the Telltale one?

Link Keller 45:43I haven’t. But I’ve been struggling to think of what game examples

Josué Cardona 45:47were the next one.

Kayla Devorak 45:47So this, I think it resonated really well with me. It’s really just about grief, and loss. And like, so. What is his name? The one that wears the mask? Peter Quill? Yeah.

Josué Cardona 46:06Star Lord.

Kayla Devorak 46:07Guardians of the Galaxy. Like, he’s my least favorite character,

Link Keller 46:10you’re like the one that wears the mask in my brain is like, phantom of the opera. that’s not what we’re talking about

Link Keller 46:16he’s my least favorite

Josué Cardona 46:17paying attention.

Kayla Devorak 46:18So to be fair, but so it parallels right. So he, the whole thing is kind of like, it’s almost like a mind. Mind flayer is like, gone in and like they’re, they’re kind of like, making them think that they can change what’s happened. And what has happened is Peter Quill lost his mom. And he could do anything to stop it. And then in this same kind of parallel, this daughter of one of his exes, or whatever, like her mom also died, but then it can you kind of get like, sucked into this weird, like process of like, this kid is trying to undo it or trying to change it and tried to make it not that. And I think it’s a really great representation of like, the way we can move through grief, right, and how we can get stuck. And so instead of haven’t really talked about it, you can like, just immerse yourself in this game and be like, feel those feelings without actually having to like, talk about it, right?

Link Keller 47:25Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 47:26it’s, uh, I actually really liked the game. I thought the story was pretty great. And the mechanics were good. And I was like, man, we really all of us are just really working through grief was like,

Link Keller 47:41Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 47:42I think at that time, it was like the sixth or seventh game I played that, like one of the core things was like, Grief. Man, all right, well, that’s okay.

Link Keller 47:51These game devs are going through it, right? Yeah. Yeah, I was struggling to think of a game example. I couldn’t really pull anything very specific. But I do keep thinking about what remains of Edith Finch, which is one of my all time favorite games very much about death and grief. I’ve absolutely used it as a conversation starters of like, these are the different family members and how they dealt with the grief of losing, you know, their partners, their children, etc. Parents, and so on, and reflecting that back, you know, onto the person I’m talking about the game with or, as was generally the case, forcing them to play. You have to play this game. It’s important. And just being like, Okay, well, who do you Who do you feel most? Like? Do you feel like Edie, do you feel like Edie’s daughter? Like, how Who are you relating to and their relationship with this monument to grief? is like, delicious conversation stuff. But yeah, games, I think games are on the like, harder ins, to pull this this kind of, relating to off. Because so many game experiences are are by player right is like you and I, we can play we can all three play Mass Effect and have emotional reactions to the things that happen in Mass Effect are not necessarily the same, because the way that we play is different. And the shepherd that we made is different, and that sort of stuff. So it’s like a little bit harder to get there. But obviously, there are games that are very narrative focused character heavy, those are a little bit easier to point to. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 49:40yeah. Yeah, depends.

Link Keller 49:44It turns out the medium is the message and it depends. It depends what media you are talking about, and how you’ll relate to it, and how it will impact you. I do find it hilarious that we are having this conversation and none of us says has brought up music because I feel like music is such a big one for people to be like, this music is my heart song. It this one lyric is like the I’m gonna get it tattooed on me because that’s that it me! it me!!

Josué Cardona 50:18So So I liked that you mentioned this because I thought about it, but I left it off to the side. So I believe it so so but I’ve kept bringing up the word resonance, right? Like that’s when I when I teach GT that’s, that’s exactly. It’s all about that resonating with the media. We have a music podcast that I’ve never it’s one, I think it’s one of the best things, at least I’ve ever made. And we haven’t published a single episode. But the name of the show is resonance, because I think that music is the most powerful piece of that because it feels like a separate conversation when it comes to music. Because music is it doesn’t even have to have lyrics. Like, and you can still feel something right and it resonates with you. And music can tie to like you can be listening to a piece of music while you were having an experience and then that that music is tied forever with that. And it’s it’s a it’s like it’s harder to explain. And it’s not exactly it’s definitely related. Oh, yeah. But this is more like narrative. Right that I think we’re what we’re what we’re referring to here. And something

Link Keller 51:29we will we will be doing a Barbie episode but the the Billy Eilish song that she wrote for the Barbie movie that lately has been like, Oh, that one’s hittin’. But we’ll save that for the Barbie episode, which we will be doing

Kayla Devorak 51:45Spotify, Spotify has these playlists. So one is called like, it’s like, the sound. It’s like a movie soundtrack. But it’s if your life was a movie. So it kind of like it’s specific to you. So like, if it’s actually, it slaps, it’s so good.

Link Keller 52:06Interesting,

Kayla Devorak 52:07then they also have a villain mode playlist. And and I don’t know if that one is different, or if it’s the same for everyone. But one of the songs on there on mine. It’s called labor. And listen this song. I was listening to it at work

Link Keller 52:23oh, I know what song you’re talking about

Kayla Devorak 52:24I was listening to it at work the other day. And I was like, this is like, this is what it’s like to be a woman. I feel this. Like deeply. It was good.

Link Keller 52:39Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Nothing, nothing like being on a road trip with some friends. And you’re just putting on some classic tunes to sing along with and then that song comes on. And everybody is like rage scream crying. Like, yeah, we’re all really going through it, huh?

Kayla Devorak 52:58I’ll send it, you can listen to it, Josué. But that,

Josué Cardona 53:01yeah, yeah

Kayla Devorak 53:01that kind of reminds me Avery Adler made. I think that’s how you say her last name. Anyways, she made a tabletop role playing game based around music. And actually, it’s a lot of fun. And I actually used it in therapy sessions in like one on one sessions with clients. But basically each person at the table like makes a playlist like add songs or makes basically everybody like makes a playlist. And then you kind of build out who your characters are. And then you play scenes like with the music and stuff. It’s pretty cool. I’ll oh my gosh,

Josué Cardona 53:43yeah,

Kayla Devorak 53:43I gotta look up the, It’s called ribbon drive. I’d be happy we can. We can play it on GTA once it gets revived.

Josué Cardona 53:53Oh, yeah. Geek Therapy adventures coming back. Whoo whoo.

Link Keller 53:58Wooo!!

Josué Cardona 53:59Coming soon to have a podcast feed near you.

Kayla Devorak 54:01Like an interesting way to do music. And, you know,

Josué Cardona 54:04yeah, yeah,

Kayla Devorak 54:06making it.

Link Keller 54:07And it’s perfect for you because you make playlists for your characters anyway.

Kayla Devorak 54:11I do, I do. Yes, I do. Thank you. It’s I think they are really helpful for me. And my most recent d&d character, without even knowing it, I made a rather apt on playlists without even realizing it.

Link Keller 54:31Nice.

Josué Cardona 54:33You mentioned something earlier about grief and how it started popping up all over the place. So I asked chat GPT what that thing is called when, you know, when like, what’s that phenomenon when you start seeing something all over the place?

Link Keller 54:45Confirmation bias?

Josué Cardona 54:45says it’s called the Well, no, not exactly. And this sounds right to me the Baader Meinhof phenomenon. Oh, yes, this, right. The frequency illusion right of like, Oh, I’m experiencing grief. And now I see grief stories all over the place. And I don’t know, I think I think that’s a that’s, that’s an interesting part of this as well. Because you can revisit the same piece of media a different time and depending on what you’re experiencing, you might see it very differently, or just interpret something completely differently. Not just because we’re seeing a different version of the story like right like, like with a game, but just because you’re in a completely different place right now.

Kayla Devorak 54:52That is true.

Josué Cardona 54:52But I do like this idea of stuff having soundtracks like obviously movies have soundtracks and TV shows have soundtracks. I love that but I do like these connected soundtracks. I remember the the Scott Pilgrim books, the the author, he has a list the he has a soundtrack that goes with every book. That to him, like represents. Yeah, it’s like a recommended playlist while you’re reading each of the books. And I like stuff like that a lot. Someday, the resonance podcast, we’ll see the light of day. Someday.

Link Keller 56:04Until then, I’ll keep sending you all the cool music tiktoks i see

Josué Cardona 56:08Yes, yes. I think that’s it. For this topic. Any closing thoughts? Kayla?

Kayla Devorak 56:14No

Josué Cardona 56:16any closing thoughts Link?

Link Keller 56:18Um, yeah, I don’t know. I think this was a good conversation. And I’m excited to hear what our listeners use as their shorthand explanations.

Josué Cardona 56:35Yes, absolutely

Link Keller 56:35through examples and clips. some lines, monologues, you know, whatever.

Kayla Devorak 56:43Little shakespeare.

Link Keller 56:44I’m excited. I’m excited. Little, little Shakespeare for fun. Yeah, there’s some good stuff in there.

Kayla Devorak 56:50There is.

Link Keller 56:51It’s pretty good. I think I think the are you into Do you bite your thumb? I do. Not at you sir. But I do. I think about that all the time.

Josué Cardona 57:05Well, thank you all for listening. Thank you chat GPT for the help. Yeah, please share your versions of these experiences, either your own or clients or friends, family. That’d be great. Share them in the community spaces links to those are in the show notes. Thanks again for listening. Remember to geek out to do good. And we’ll be back next week

Link Keller 57:32mmmbye!

Josué Cardona 57:32Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Tomorrow, and Tomorrow, and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin
• The Masquerade series by Seth Dickinson
• David / Schitt’s Creek
• Jim / Our Flag Means Death
• Double Trouble / She-Ra and the Princesses of Power
• Batman and Robin
• Green Lantern
• Alex / Supergirl
• Magic of the Lost series by C. L. Clark
• Eraser (1996)
• Scrubs
• Grey’s Anatomy
• Chicago P.D. / Chicago Med / Chicago Fire
• ER
• Mythic Quest
• Fleabag
• Marvel’s Guardians of the Galaxy (video game)
• What Remains of Edith Finch (video game)
• Scott Pilgrim vs. The World

Conversation Topics:

* Alexithymia* Aphantasia* Baader-Meinhof phenomenon* Change* Cultural representation* Death* Difficult emotions* Family* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* LGBT Issues* Making new friends* Mental Health Services* Resonance

Relatable Experience:

* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Coming Out* Death* Depression* Disability* Fighting* Health (Physical)* Loss (other than death)* New Life Event (New Rules)* Trauma* Resonance

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Link Keller 0:11Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network, where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media that we care about. Also, media we don’t like sometimes that’s a fun way to bond. But we’re not talking about that. Today

Link Keller 0:30Josué is gone and link goes off the rails.

Link Keller 0:30Today, we’re gonna be yucking all the yums every yum. No, I’m just kidding. I would never I would never do such a thing. Because I don’t want Josué to be mad at me. Please don’t be mad at me. Just kidding. We are here. Today I am joined by my dear co host, Lara.

Lara Taylor 0:49Hello,

Link Keller 0:50and valuable, most valuable guest host Kayla,

Kayla Devorak 0:58hello. Most Valuable guesthost I’ll take it,

Lara Taylor 1:04MVGH.

Link Keller 1:06the P is silent. Today, we are going to be talking about anti heroes, I think this is going to be a fun conversation, I’m excited to talk about some examples of anti heroes that we like and resonate with. But before we do that, let’s let’s sort of suss out and get a working definition for what an antihero is because, you know, not everybody uses words the same way. Which is great, and a lovely thing about humans, but makes for conversations to be a little weird sometimes. So let’s talk about a way what does an antihero mean to you, Lara?

Lara Taylor 1:46Some typically somebody that is put into a hero role and does not want to be. usually I mean, we’re gonna get into all the characters later. But like somebody who if you’re thinking about hero’s journey, which people have opinions about the hero’s journey, but the person really doesn’t want to hear the call really doesn’t want to they are not the kind of person that you would usually picture as a hero either. So that’s my working definition. There’s probably some more nuance on it. But I’ve been stuck in the therapy office all day.

Link Keller 2:28You spent all your your nuance points already today. How about you Kayla, what do you think?

Kayla Devorak 2:36Well, I think for me, when I think about anti heroes, I often think about people who just make such different choices than a traditional hero does. But still gets to kind of the same end place that a hero does. It may be a more interesting way and maybe more challenging to their own internal complexities.

Lara Taylor 3:09Listen, listeners, Josué abandoned us to go to San Diego Comic Con, and said, You know what, you can bring Kayla on and she can talk about whatever she wants.

Kayla Devorak 3:19this is true

Lara Taylor 3:19And so Kayla said anti heroes, because she loves them. So

Kayla Devorak 3:25I do they are my favorite character trope

Link Keller 3:31Oh, yeah, so for me, the way I conceptualize an antihero is a character that fulfills the role of a hero in the actions taken within the story, but their motivations are very different. Whether that’s, you know, being greedy or having other you know, value systems that we don’t generally connect to heroism, or if it is that the choices that they make are the outcome is heroic, but the choice is not heroic, that sort of thing. Basically coming down to they are heroes but their their values and their motivations are distinct from the traditional hero. And I think that makes them more interesting.

Kayla Devorak 4:26They are not a Steve Rogers. Yes,

Lara Taylor 4:29I do like me some Steve Rogers, but I’ve talked about him on the show a million times one of my favorite

Kayla Devorak 4:36you have? I am shocked

Lara Taylor 4:38a million times. Not just but I talk about one of my favorite characters of it. I like villains but I also like villains turned heroes right so like, once upon a time, Regina is one of my favorite characters. Because there’s nuance and like I I’m my nuanced points are gone, but I I love the nuanced characters that like it’s a gray area like nobody is all. Not all good and not all bad. Yeah.

Link Keller 5:19Okay, is there a specific antihero you would like to start with Kayla?

Kayla Devorak 5:24I have so many. And when I made my list, I was like, Oh no, I don’t know how many of these are going to be really familiar to the rest of you. And I doubt any of you are going to read any of the books in a day. So

Lara Taylor 5:44what?!

Kayla Devorak 5:44But the one that actually kind of led me to being like I really want to talk about anti heroes, mostly because I was really immersed in the book is Baru Cormorant, which is from the the masquerade series, I find her and her choices so fascinating. And obviously, it can’t talk to I don’t know if you guys are going to read those books, I highly recommend them. They’re very distressing, though is,

Link Keller 6:15is there a way to discuss the antihero-ness without spoiling the plot?

Kayla Devorak 6:22Yeah, so basically, she got a lot of like, colonization themes. And so she’s basically taken from her home, her home, land, and brought into this larger empire. But she’s like, brilliant, and so she has decided that she’s going to basically destroy the system from within. However, the choices she makes throughout the whole thing is very, very selfish, like so selfish, and also consistently forgets that other people are also playing the game. And so she’s often like, I’ve made this really brilliant move. And then a chapter later, she’s like, Oh, no, I forgot that there’s other pieces on the board. But it makes ultimately, in the first book makes, like the ultimate sacrifice for a relatively good reason. But it really messes her up. And then she just continues to, like use that to leverage her really shitty choices of where she’s like continuing to sacrifice people for this cause, because now she’s so invested in destroying the empire in this way, that if she doesn’t keep moving forward, all of those sacrifices she has made are like for nothing. And then what was it for? And it’s to the point where like, it breaks her psyche at the end of the first book. Like, it’s such a fascinating, like in book two. It’s like she in Book Two, she literally has cannot see out of her one half of one half is completely blind. But there’s like no real connection, like, because people are like, No, you’re moving it. What’s happening here. There’s three books in the series so far. I have not read the third one, which is titled The tyrant Baru Cormorant. And then there’s a fourth book coming, but there’s no release date yet. It’s fantastic. It’s really devastating. But it’s also like a really diverse story. There’s diverse characters. There’s diverse relationships. And there are people who are way more like morally sound, but she consistently makes really fucked up choices. But you know that her ultimate goal is to save her home her homeland and destroy the group that basically destroyed her people and killed her dad. Yeah,

Link Keller 9:10nice.

Kayla Devorak 9:10I love her. I appreciate I like love the shit out of her. I’m like, you make such terrible choices. But I really want you to win.

Link Keller 9:19I think there’s something really validating about reading a story where you get to watch your character. Absolutely fall for the sunk cost fallacy.

Kayla Devorak 9:28Yes.

Link Keller 9:29There’s, I get such a rush. It’s being the reader being like, hahaha You’re so stupid. I would never do such a thing. I spent five years in grad school. I’m not better than any of them. cost fallacy myself, its a mirror.

Lara Taylor 9:47Hey, listen, Link, you got out at the end.

Kayla Devorak 9:52It’s fascinating, right? Because in this instance, the sunk cost is lives right like

Link Keller 10:00Mm hmm. It’s like just actual cost and

Kayla Devorak 10:04actually very much

Link Keller 10:05not just time, bodies.

Kayla Devorak 10:09Yeah, it ripped my heart out. And I was like, wow, I knew it was coming. I knew bad things were coming, I knew it was gonna end well in the first book, and then I was just like, you’ve got a ways to go friend. And you’re still really far away.

Link Keller 10:24I think that’s also part of why anti heroes can be really compelling is because based on the structure of stories, we know, there will be a consequence for the choices that they’re making. And so getting to have, like, there is going to be fallout for whatever you chose. But I’m interested to see if the author, Director, creator, or whoever, if they use the framing, that the choice itself was bad, or that sometimes you just have to deal with consequences. And that’s how it that’s how it goes. I think that’s always really interesting to get to have that engagement with the story of being like, I know something bad is going to happen. I can’t wait to find out what how bad is it gonna be?

Kayla Devorak 11:16Truly

Link Keller 11:18what about you Lara?

Kayla Devorak 11:19that’s my pitch you guys need to read it now.

Lara Taylor 11:22What about me? Well, the most, it’s an oldie but also a new one I made you all watch Nimona. It’s so I’ve talked about Nimona on the show before I think Josué and I don’t know if it was when Josué and I just did rapid fire on episodes or if I spent a whole episode talking about it. But I think one of the reasons I like anti Heroes is because they’re fairly relatable. And having worked in a group home with kids who felt like they were the bad guy, and had been given the message that they were the bad guy. And so I had a kid literally telling me once like, I might as well be the bad guy, I might as well be this villain related to the story of Nimona, which is a graphic novel. And now a movie on Netflix graphic novel by ND Stevenson, who was also part of the creation of the show on Netflix or the movie on Netflix. It is a wonderful story with lots of queerness lots of lots of trans themes in it as is to be a given because ND Stevenson, themselves was trans,

Link Keller 12:40which is very funny, because they wrote this comic before,

Lara Taylor 12:44before figuring it out

Link Keller 12:45is really a retrospective moment and where you’re like, ah, the signs were there all along, huh? Everyone’s like, yeah, sorry, bud we didn’t know how to tell you.

Kayla Devorak 12:56That does tend to happen. Yeah,

Lara Taylor 12:57yeah. Yeah. But basically Nimona has is a shapeshifting quote, unquote, monster in this world of knights and it’s a fantasy movie, but also like, based in like, our times it’s funny when we watched it, Nina was like, that’s a lot of progression for 1000 years. And I’m like, What are you talking about? Look at our world.

Kayla Devorak 13:23I think even further because there’s flying cars.

Lara Taylor 13:26Right? Exactly. Exactly. have

Link Keller 13:28we have flying cars.

Kayla Devorak 13:30I would not get on that flying car.

Link Keller 13:32We call them with planes. It’s

Lara Taylor 13:36okay.

Kayla Devorak 13:37Do you have fine horses because Nimona has flying horses.

Link Keller 13:40Nimona is flying horses. Nimona is great. I love Nimona. And I think that’s this is actually a great wrinkle because there is the antihero who is an antihero because of the way that others see them and is projected onto them. I’m thinking Tyrion Lannister is a really good example of that. He did absolutely make some more villainous choices later on in the movie but very much like the first book and the first season of the show. Like Tyrion is mistreated by everybody because he looks different. And they treat him as villainous because of that. And so he has that antihero aspect because it is coming from the external space put upon him versus anti heroes who see themselves as I am villainous. I make selfish greedy choices that are self serving, and that makes me like villainous, and then how they project that outward and then how people respond to that. I think I think that’s good stuff. That’s good stuff. Because like Nimona in the movie. I don’t know about the comic book but in the movie. The actions that we see her take are very borderline villainous.

Lara Taylor 15:02She literally wants to murder everybody.

Kayla Devorak 15:04Yeah. Do you blame her?

Lara Taylor 15:06No I do not. I do not.

Link Keller 15:09And that’s what makes it so interesting is like, objectively, destruction and murder are bad. However, it’s completely understandable why she feels that way and why she desires that because of the way that she’s been treated and and isolated and told that she is a monster. And we talk about this on the show regularly, but like, people internalize that stuff and we we become the labels we apply to ourselves. And so, of course, Nimona is like, everybody could call me a monster I’m gonna do monstrous shit is like, that’s what you expect. I’m gonna meet your expectation.

Lara Taylor 15:49Correct, which is why it resonated so much with the kids that I work with in the group home. Right?

Link Keller 15:54absolutely

Lara Taylor 15:55the ability to like, will fuck what everybody says about me, I’m just going to do the things that I and in some ways, it’s the things that I want to do that are positive, right? Because she did do some good things in this movie, and the graphic novel, and it just having that example of like, those people are wrong, and I can prove that they’re wrong. was a big thing for quite a few of the the guys I worked with at the group home. Yeah, I mean, this movie also has what you might consider an anti villain. Like the whole like, but I’m not the bad guy. I am the good guy

Kayla Devorak 16:39absolutely

Lara Taylor 16:40Because everyone has those expectations. But it’s, it’s a whole flip thing to like, yeah. Such a good movie. There were so many tears.

Link Keller 16:50I do. I do have to tell you like I started this movie. Like I knew the comic existed, but I’ve never read it. I started this movie, and they introduced the main character guy. It’s like he’s a villain. I was like, No, he’s not. And then they show. The actual villain is like in the scene. I’m like, That’s the villain. an hour and a half later in in the movie. They’re like, big reveal the villain! I’m like, Yeah, I knew it. I knew it.

Lara Taylor 17:18After. Immediately after watching the movie, our friend sent Nina and I a meme from top that they found on Tumblr that was like, Oh, you’re the queer coded villain. Actually, I’m the villain coded queer. Okay.

Link Keller 17:36I love that. Ohmygod.

Lara Taylor 17:41So now I need like a shirt that says villain coated queer. Love it.

Kayla Devorak 17:45That’s fantastic. Actually, we should make those.

Lara Taylor 17:50Absolutely.

Link Keller 17:51I like that a lot. That’s good.

Lara Taylor 17:53Yeah, yeah. But nimona has been one of my favorite anti heroes for a long time. And like I said, Regina from once upon a time, she but she’s literally the Evil Queen. And she does a lot of fucked up things in that show. And comes around and like, becomes this person that like you’re really rooting for? Toward the end of the show. Toward the middle of the show, I’d even say so. Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 18:22I always rooted it for her

Lara Taylor 18:25that you like to you definitely like to root for the villains. But they’re gonna be good. In the end. I think I like

Link Keller 18:34my characters to be little shits. Okay, that’s what I’m looking for

Kayla Devorak 18:39I like complicated and struggle with their choices.

Link Keller 18:43I like ’em a little Stinky. just a lil Stinky.

Lara Taylor 18:47It’s okay. Honestly, there that’s better than the ones that are squeaky clean a lot of the time.

Kayla Devorak 18:53Well, it’s just not true and are realistic in a real real way.

Link Keller 19:00Right? Yeah.

Lara Taylor 19:01Yeah, we all we all do things that we regret.

Kayla Devorak 19:04Talk about unattainable standards.

Link Keller 19:06Yeah, I think it’s such an interesting thing to put in context of like, when media is coming out in our history. And like, when the stories that are about, you know, the Superman’s and the Captain America’s the white knights, the always do good boy scout type, like when those stories were the most popular. contextualizing them by like, what was going on in the world when that was being made and when it came out? And how interesting that is. And I think, you know, now in 2023 Like, life is so fucking complicated. And I think that we want to see that reflected in our media. It’s meaningful to us to see that that complexity reflected back to us is like it’s not just you baby like it’s crazy. out here and people are doing the best they can and sometimes not doing the best they can. But for good reasons, and stuff like that, I think that is num numnum yum, yum, yummy media stuff.

Lara Taylor 20:14I mean, you brought like, the Superman’s and the Captain America is I think some of the most compelling stories are the ones where they do make choices that are not great. And it kind of shakes people’s view, like, a lot of people did not like the movie Man of Steel, for whatever reasons, but a lot of it is because Superman is not supposed to kill anybody. But that shapes that Superman throughout, like, oh, no, I did this thing. And I shouldn’t have done this thing. Or Civil War is a comic series before the movie was one that a lot of people were drawn to because the heroes were making choices that were in conflict with each other. And it was this ambiguous, like who is right, who is right in this story. And I mean, that leads into Tony Stark, who is definitely an antihero

Kayla Devorak 21:10Oh, absolutely.

Lara Taylor 21:12He makes horrible decisions. Every turn of the way, except when it really matters most right? Yeah, yeah. So Gotta love those people that make real life decisions that we don’t know what the perfect decision is going to be when we make one.

Link Keller 21:32I think another good example that we’re all familiar with is Joel from The Last of Us. He is a very interesting antihero.

Kayla Devorak 21:46Isn’t he though,

Link Keller 21:48yeah, yeah, it was it was very funny. Like remembering the the discourse around the game when the game first came out, and then getting to see the same discourse occur for the TV show. Yeah, from the major plot points. Which I guess I can, I can, might be able to dodge actually spoiling that. But just in case spoiler alert, I think I think Joel is so interesting, because people get really into arguing about whether or not the choice he made at the end of the first game and the end of the show, the first season of the show, if he made the air quotes, right choice, or air quotes, moral choice. I think that is so interesting that that that’s the aspect that people really get hung up on, when the way more interesting aspect is, the story of The Last of Us is we get to see the things that happened to Joel that 100% explain why he makes the choice that he makes, he makes

Lara Taylor 23:03the right choice for him. For right, like Yeah, what he thought the right choice was, for her.

Kayla Devorak 23:12It was it was only the right choice for him. And she I mean, Ellie no point had any opportunity to consent was pretty clear on what she wanted.

Lara Taylor 23:21It could have happened would have been

Kayla Devorak 23:23right. Now I could write a whole dissertation on all that

Link Keller 23:27I just find it so many more people are just like, well, I don’t think he made the right choice. I’m like, That’s literally the least interesting part of this. It’s like, no, that’s not what this is about, like, why do you do you understand why Joel made that choice? And if they’re like, Well, yeah, I’m like then that that’s it. That’s the good stuff. That’s what we’re into is understanding why he would make a choice. Even if we don’t agree with it. I think it was abhorrent and wrong, or very funnily the people who start trying to like argue like, well, the science and it’s like, no, no, no, that’s that’s not why that’s not an interesting avenue conversation. The interesting this is like understanding how the things that happen to you throughout your life impact the choices you make and how you rationalize those choices to yourself. And not so much in the show or the the game but then further rationalize it to others in that that ripple effects of the how that rationalization will change based on who you are trying to rationalize it to. And that’s so good

Kayla Devorak 24:32I think, if any, anybody who had was tracking what had happened to him and either played the game or watched the show and didn’t play the game, but saw the relationship build between those two, most definitely should’ve clocked the choice he was going to make at the end like hours before it happened, right because No, no human living in that context, having experienced what he experienced I was gonna make a different choice.

Lara Taylor 25:02You could have clocked that choice in the first 20 minutes of the first episode.

Kayla Devorak 25:06I absolutely agree. Absolutely.

Link Keller 25:09This is a side note to this conversation but the mirroring of the very early on scene of him tossing the child corpse into the fire mirrored to the ending scene of him carrying, not a child corpse but similar similar Yes, body moment happening. There’s like, Huh, that’s so good.

Kayla Devorak 25:32And what’s more interesting, for me is the way his choices then impact Ellie’s later and impact her choices, right? Because, I mean, I have opinions about

Lara Taylor 25:46but people for people who have only watched the show. Spoiler Absolutely. Last of Us, too,

Kayla Devorak 25:53I cannot wait. I cannot wait for people to watch part 2

Link Keller 26:00I can’t wait to see how they, do that

Kayla Devorak 26:02it’s gonna be really fascinating. But his choices and where it left their relationship, right. really impacted her response to what happened, right. And you could argue that they may never have experienced Seattle, had he been honest with her from the beginning, and had worked that out with her. But that resulted in her feeling like she had absolutely no choice. But to respond to what happened to him. And in turn, she made some really very villainous choices in part two, and you had to play that. And I think that’s fascinating, because, because here you go from part one, right? Where you are basically playing. It is everybody’s, it’s like a power fantasy, right? But you’re also saving someone. So here you go from playing this, this guy who’s actually quite old, let me just say, like, by the time the game starts, he’s already

Lara Taylor 27:0956

Kayla Devorak 27:0950 something years old, right? So here you are, right, you, whatever, you feel good about yourself. You’re like, Yes, I saved this, whatever. And then everything happens in part two. And now you are a 20. Something traumatize a young person who has seen so much trauma, and lost so many people in her life, and has never really had an opportunity to have conversations that resolve those relationships, right? in any meaningful way. Like, all of her conversations around her relationships, never really got resolution, like

Lara Taylor 27:09no

Kayla Devorak 27:09like, Riley doesn’t get resolution, you know, stuff with Joel doesn’t totally resolve itself. And then she and then you have to play this person who’s making really tragic choices. And I think it’s fascinating. She’s like, a anti hero villain. You’re basically that’s what’s happening.

Lara Taylor 28:10Listen, like, and it wasn’t like, even when she was doing that stuff. I was rooting for her right. as I’m playing the part of Abby I’m like, can I just see be in here and die? Can I just let Ellie kill

Link Keller 28:25that’s how you know she’s an antihero because you’re like, I’m rootin’ for you bad girl.

Kayla Devorak 28:32Listen, I just wanted her to go home

Lara Taylor 28:33and you think its resolved and then it’s not. And then it’s not you like oh okay

Kayla Devorak 28:38cuz she couldn’t let it go. She couldn’t let it go. Because

Lara Taylor 28:41and other people wouldn’t let her.

Kayla Devorak 28:43Yeah, like she couldn’t let it go. And then grown ass men had to guilt like it’s a whole thing like, the way grown as men choices impacted. Ellie should be a fucking dissertation. Truly, truly

Lara Taylor 28:58listeners, it should be a dissertation go out and write that.

Kayla Devorak 29:01Because not but not one, but two grown men. very much impacted her poor traumatized, like, and they were traumatized too, but like, they’re 20 Some years older than her. She didn’t need to go seek revenge. But she had no she didn’t feel like she had any choice.

Lara Taylor 29:22Yeah.

Kayla Devorak 29:23Because she couldn’t had she didn’t have resolution.

Lara Taylor 29:27Right. Right.

Link Keller 29:30There we see that interplay of the externalized forces versus the internalized forces where she is being told by outsiders to do the thing. And also she believes about herself that that is what she can do that that is what is available to her. That is what she has power over. It’s like it’s good stuff.

Kayla Devorak 29:51And then she stares happiness in the face. And it’s what I mean like kind of happiness. She could have gotten there. She was still struggling but she was

Lara Taylor 29:59almost They’re

Kayla Devorak 30:00She stared it in the face and walked away. Those are the choices anti-heroes make.

Lara Taylor 30:06And then and then that last bit there was even more traumatizing.

Kayla Devorak 30:13Oh yeah, going out to California. I think that was the worst part truthfully. Like, you’re at that point I was ready to just be like, What are you doing? Like just go home!

Lara Taylor 30:26I can almost understand this stuff in the in the theater, I could almost like build this back and forth this battle. Come on, we squashed this let’s let it go. And then we go back. I couldn’t believe Jessica when I was playing, Jessica was like, Oh, you’re there. There’s more. And I’m like, what more?

Link Keller 30:43How could they possibly more here? Oh no.

Lara Taylor 30:46What else is there to say?

Kayla Devorak 30:48There’s so much to say. And Naughty Dog if you’re listening. I really just want a DLC where Ellie’s going to therapy. Like I would play the shit out of that. Let me heal Ellie, please. Please let me heal Ellie. So she can go be happy.

Link Keller 31:10Just want I just want her to be happy.

Kayla Devorak 31:13She deserves it. She deserves to be a happy little queer in post apocalyptic America.

Lara Taylor 31:20Just like Bill and Frank in the show.

Kayla Devorak 31:22Yes, right. Yeah.

Link Keller 31:24Right, you guys got some more examples you want to touch on?

Kayla Devorak 31:29Let’s see. Boy, do I ever

Lara Taylor 31:33Kayla’s got a long list

Kayla Devorak 31:34Well, so one that popped up as I was sitting here, as you were talking about, like, the ways like society projects onto us. I recently watched the Tupac documentary on Hulu. It’s like, it is so good. And I learned so much about his mother. And, and him. And I had already known a ton about him, I was very obsessed with Tupac in high school, like very obsessed. And really, I have even more value of for his music. Now. After I’ve experienced some not totally similar things, but I can totally I can relate in a very concrete way now than I could as a teenager. But Tupac, I think, is a great example of like somebody who really tried to reach people, initially, in a way that wasn’t going to be all rooted in like, gangsta rap and stuff like that, and it didn’t work. And instead, he, you know, as this country does with black men, had all kinds of labels thrown at him and was shit on and, you know, was falsely accused and sent to prison. And

Link Keller 32:56one might say villainized

Kayla Devorak 32:59Absolutely. villainized absolutely villainized. And he found a way to, like, leverage it right and become and use it and put it in his music, right. But even in his this documentary, also talks about, like the ways in which his the Shakur family and his mother specifically, were also villainized, right, because she was a black panther member in the 70s and was in jail and pregnant with him for a while, but like, was falsely imprisoned. And like all of these things. She worked her own case, did all that fought it herself and like, ultimately won. But again, all of these, these, like villainous ideas placed on this woman who’s really just trying to do right by her community and also advocate for like, the things that they deserve, like as humans, right. And so, yeah, as I was sitting here, Nimona inspired me to think about Tupac.

Lara Taylor 34:07Wow, you really believe but also not

Kayla Devorak 34:11really. But you know, yeah. The documentary is really great. I highly recommend it.

Lara Taylor 34:19Nice. It’s interesting. I grew up listening to Tupac loved his music. I’ve I listened to a lot of gangster rap when I was young. I was that white teenage girl. But I had never thought of him that way. I need to watch this documentary. Now

Kayla Devorak 34:39watch the documentary read a rose that grew from concrete, read any of his poetry, and like, yeah, in the context of 2023 Read his lyrics. And it’s like, I mean, this man has was saying and I think a lot of them, you know, NWA and all of them. I think they were saying very similar things now, and I think it’s just very much in many of our faces in a very different way than it was then. But it’s really it’s really interesting. It’s a really interesting exploration into, into him

Lara Taylor 35:13to talk the antihero, I’d say Snoop Dogg fits into that too.

Kayla Devorak 35:18Yeah.

Lara Taylor 35:21And now he’s partnering with Martha Stewart.

Link Keller 35:24That’s gonna be like a decade old at this point. I like his Snoop Dogg’s affirmations. There’s no one better to be than myself.

Kayla Devorak 35:35Snoop is in the documentary.

Link Keller 35:36Hell yeah.

Lara Taylor 35:37Good.

Kayla Devorak 35:38Right. Yeah.

Link Keller 35:41Well, that’s you, Lara, you got another one?

Lara Taylor 35:46My brain is

Link Keller 35:47you are welcome to pull something off of the lists and just claim it as your own only we will know it’s the perfect cover

Lara Taylor 35:55it’s so true It’s so true. Y’all are killing me?

Kayla Devorak 36:00I do. I do have a I do have a question. So less about the character, but the character from the book, the faithless and the unbroken, inspire it. But it’s these questions of like, I think I mentioned in the faithless and the unbroken. This one character, Luka makes a lot of really terrible choices. It’s very much an antihero. You can understand why she’s making those choices to do do what she’s doing. Again, she’s sacrificing people and things and really wants this stuff for relatively selfish reasons. But it’s an interrogate her character. She represents the Empire, let’s say. It’s not the French in the book, but it’s inspired by the like France and Morocco. But it’s this question of when you relate to an antihero, like, like someone in positions of power, right? So someone who’s royalty, who’s maybe not making really great choices, or is directly impacting and connected to, like colonization, right? And that’s kind of what’s happening in these books. And the author has talked a lot about like, How can I, you know, most often people are going to relate more with Luca, because they’re closer to that position than they are to the other main characters position, who is a conscripted military individual. And so it’s interesting though, because the author talks a lot about like wanting those connections to then leverage thinking about, and getting people to start thinking about interrogating their own understandings of, you know, imperialism, and colonization and like all of these things. And so, a roundabout way, like the question kind of like, what, when an antihero or a character can can do that? I mean, like, people get uncomfortable about it, right? But like, how do you instead, like, lean into it and try to actually unpack it? Because I think anti heroes can be really great vehicles for helping people like, look at that stuff. And be like, oh, yeah, okay, let’s unpack that. Or maybe it’s just me?

Link Keller 38:29Oh, no, I think you’re totally right. And I think that’s why video games make a good avenue for this, because they have the player like, like, with Joel, in The Last of Us, the player is embodying Joel. And so the distance for the player to emotionally connect with the character is much shorter, because you are literally moving them around in a space. And so that’s, you know, part of why so many people were upset at the ending of The Last of Us is because they’re like, I would never make that choice in the games. Like, it’s not a choice for you. It’s Joel’s choice, and he was never gonna make any other choice. And you just have to play it. And you have to deal with the emotional fallout of doing this action that you don’t cosign, but because you have spent all this time learning about Joel and coming to understand him, maybe care about him, all these things and just be like, Oh, that’s, that’s where it’s, that’s where it’s real juicy. To really dig into that stuff about how we, you know, frame the choices that people make and how we put people into boxes. Like that’s a bad person. Because of this one thing or my perception of that one thing, and it’s I think it’s video games are a good place to delve into that kind of nitty gritty, philosophical stuff. Because of that player embodiment. It gets people to lower a lot of the barricades they would put up normally when talking about that stuff.

Lara Taylor 40:06It’s funny bit when you brought up videogames and that and Joel again, I went to will fuck Well, I in life is strange. I decided to save my girl instead of save everybody else. I’m totally villainous right there. But that’s me making the choice, right?

Lara Taylor 40:25It’s very different.

Lara Taylor 40:25Very different

Link Keller 40:28giving the player that choice is like now you you have to own the consequences that’s on your shoulders not on on the character,

Lara Taylor 40:38which then brought my brain to playing tabletop RPGs.

Link Keller 40:44Hell yeah.

Lara Taylor 40:45Because when we when we played, when we streamed on CASTT, one of our checkout questions was usually what did your character do? That you would not have done? Right? Or what was something that surprised you? Um, and I mean, half the time I play myself, when I’m playing game,

Kayla Devorak 41:04you play the most wholesome characters. So like I,

Lara Taylor 41:08you know what

Kayla Devorak 41:09me? Like, this is a challenge. Lara play an anti hero, it create an anti heroes character.

Lara Taylor 41:17That may that may happen in our next game, who knows? But thinking about that question, like a lot of times, there weren’t many things that surprised me about what I had my character do. But I and the question is like, is there something they did that that you that surprised you? Or is something you wouldn’t do when in reality? I mean, it’s that alibi, but you’re making that conscious decision, you’re making the choice that your character does this thing. And so that’s another way to kind of learn about ourselves and relate to these anti heroes and like, think about, even if the character does something you disagree with, you can think about your relationship to what they did.

Kayla Devorak 42:00Yeah,

Lara Taylor 42:01Kayla, and I have basically written a dissertation on this

Link Keller 42:04a lot of dissertations.

Kayla Devorak 42:06Mostly, well, kind of a dissertation.

Lara Taylor 42:10there’s a Presentation, go get a TAGGS get a TAGGS 3 media pass, and you can see it

Kayla Devorak 42:17speaking of tabletop characters, I, I asked Joe, I was like on a scale of one to antihero, where does Trey fall? And trays my is the monk that I’m playing in this game that Lara and I are in

Lara Taylor 42:29and Joe is our DM.

Kayla Devorak 42:32And she was like, you’re at like a two. And I was like, okay. We need to work on that. But I do think that a period

Link Keller 42:42next game, I’m committing a war crime, watch out.

Kayla Devorak 42:46Well, yeah, you know, maybe not war crimes, but tray. Trey is not a completely trey’s very morally gray.

Lara Taylor 42:58Yeah, yeah.

Kayla Devorak 43:01I do think Lexa has made a lot of anti-hero choices. For sure.

Lara Taylor 43:11Yeah. Yeah. Listen when I did. So, in our d&d game, we’ve been doing some like leveling up so some one on one with the DM and I finally gave Joe my backstory. And Joe was like, wholesome, a wholesome backstory in my dnd??

Link Keller 43:27a queer character with a wholesome backstory? It’s never been done

Lara Taylor 43:31I’m here for it though Yeah, but it’s been great we’re working on some good stuff. Yeah, but it’s you know, I love the anti heroes but I play the goody two shoe

Kayla Devorak 43:44you play like the sweetest characters ever. It’s it’s sometimes I’m like just kill someone. Just yell.

Lara Taylor 43:59We’ll see what happens next game.

Kayla Devorak 44:00Speaking of killing someone, what about Kratos?

Lara Taylor 44:04You know, that was on the list and I was drawn to that Kratos kills a lot of people

Kayla Devorak 44:08it was your idea. Lara Kratos was yours.

Lara Taylor 44:11Yeah, Kratos is I mean, I have related to Kratos like Well, no, I have not necessarily related to Kratos but we did a whole episode on

Kayla Devorak 44:20it’s okay, if you did truthfully,

Lara Taylor 44:22I mean, there’s many moments but there was a whole point of we did a whole episode on the first one of the Kratos in Norse mythology games. And I mentioned that it was that my dad and his experience of losing my mom and having to like drag me around, was like Kratos and Atreus. And my dad is very much he is more wholesome than I am.

Kayla Devorak 44:54Amazing

Lara Taylor 44:54I mean now, I don’t know about the past. I’ve heard some stories, but like he’s very wholesome of the sweetest man you’ll ever meet. Very not Kratos, but definitely still that that’s that piece there of like, what do I do with this kid? who lost their mom?

Link Keller 45:10How do I handle my own grief while also juggling my dependent child’s grief?

Lara Taylor 45:19And I definitely push them buttons as a teenager with him

Link Keller 45:24as is developmentally appropriate.

Lara Taylor 45:26Exactly, exactly. Um,

Kayla Devorak 45:29but I have Kratos yelling boys.

Link Keller 45:33I do. I do think it’s really interesting that if you’re just looking at that, I think it’s 2018 God of War. Kratos is just a hero. He’s just a hero. And it’s only an anti hero if you include the original god of war games where he is absolutely doing bad stuff for questionable reasons. And,

Kayla Devorak 45:59but also understandable reasons, right? Yes.

Link Keller 46:01I mean, yes, I can absolutely see where he’s coming from. But you can see

Lara Taylor 46:06that of any like Moral, like mostly anti heroes, but definitely a lot of villains. Right? There’s reasons and Nina gets mad at me all the time. I’m like, but look, look at these horrible things that happened to them. Of course they’re doing this and she’s like, shut up. Can’t you just hate them? That’s the therapist in me. But like, Yeah, his family he lost his family these people are using him. these God’s are using him. Yeah, of course, he’s gonna be like murder.

Link Keller 46:39I totally understand why one would seek revenge in that situation. But also, that situation is because of Kratos’ choices. And so it’s like, exactly, it’s a little bit of just a consequence. Yeah, but revenge is a reasonable outcome. I guess. Those games are fun. But yeah, I do. I do think that 2018 one is like, much better. Kratos is Kratos is a good example. Because physically, like, physically, he is, you know, a big strong white guy who’s tough and protects children and women and kills bad guys. And like that is that is what the hero

Lara Taylor 47:23but also like I’m on my mission. I’m just on my mission, fuck you. ends up getting sucked into things along the way.

Link Keller 47:30Exactly. Oh, man. Yeah, I think another good example that we don’t necessarily have to delve into deeply, but should touch on is Walter White from Breaking Bad? Because I think he is sort of on this other end of the antihero spectrum where he is a he’s a villain, he’s a villain.

Lara Taylor 47:56Like in the he was he was a I haven’t watched a whole lot of Breaking Bad. But I do know the premise and he was a good guy before all this shit happen to him. And then he becomes a villain. Yeah,

Kayla Devorak 48:06he becomes like a drug lord, doesn’t he?

Link Keller 48:08Yes. It’s very, I think part of why that show was so popular and so compelling is because he very much fulfilled like, obviously, he is the protagonist of his story. But he also all of the bad things that happened to him were almost all of the bad things that happened to him were directly because of the things that he chose to do. And so it’s like, he fulfills his own antagonist role as well. And it’s like, yes, there are other villains within the story. But none of them have the same impact as what Walter White does to himself. And I always thought that was very interesting.

Kayla Devorak 48:47Isn’t that the truth for us all?

Link Keller 48:49Isn’t that the truth

Kayla Devorak 48:50we’re our own worst antagonists?

Link Keller 48:52Yes,

Lara Taylor 48:53yes. I just have a conversation with someone about that today.

Link Keller 48:59The other the other one I would like to mention that we don’t necessarily have to delve into more is Bojack Horseman I think he is a fantastic antihero. incredibly interesting character.

Kayla Devorak 49:13Say more.

Link Keller 49:14it’s a great show. He is a terrible person. And then everything you learn about him and his past is like, yeah, no, that explains it. Like oh, yeah, no, that explains it. Oh, you’re incredibly selfish. Oh, yeah. The the way that your parents treated you that tracks like, Oh, yeah. But yeah, great, great show very interesting characters. I think it’s in the last season. He has a conversation with Oh, no, I’m forgetting her name. shoots. Anyways, he’s having a conversation with his friends and she’s talking to him and it’s like they’ve had a lot of ups and downs throughout their relationship, they’ve both done, like mean things to each other and intentionally pushed on sore spots that they are aware of. But at the end is like, you know, talking is like, despite all that I am grateful to you for being part of getting me here where I am now. And I think that’s a really lovely sentiment, and I, I like having that where it’s like, it would be so easy to just completely villainize Bojack. And be like, you’re bad guy, and you do bad guy shit, and not give any more complexity to that conversation. But the show is not interested in having it be like that. They’re like, No, the complexity is what makes these characters compelling and interesting and relatable, because none of us are all of anything at any time. Yeah, but maybe, maybe we should switch to some more personal example, I think to talk about in therapy, being being your own antagonist, I think that’s definitely relatable.

Kayla Devorak 51:09Truly, truly relatable

Lara Taylor 51:12truly

Link Keller 51:12is there, can you can either of you think of a time in your life where you’re like, I’m the anti hero.

Kayla Devorak 51:20I say that all the time.

Lara Taylor 51:23All the time? I’m, hi, it’s me.

Kayla Devorak 51:26I’m the problem.

Lara Taylor 51:28It’s me. Know, there’s plenty of things that like I could say, other things are getting in the way, but it’s like, Nope, I’m not making the time to do the thing. I don’t know.

Kayla Devorak 51:40You know, I’ve made choices, I suppose that some people could see as like, being bad choices, inherently bad choices to make. But I thought they were the right choices. Morally, I think they were the right choice. And like, how do you unpack that, though, when those choices result in you? Being villainized? Right, like, I’ve experienced that? And so how do you? Yeah, I mean, let me tell you, it takes a lot of narrative therapy,

Link Keller 52:23I was gonna, I was gonna say it’s a lot harder to unpack the antihero, self, if it’s yourself, rather than a fun lil character on a show.

Kayla Devorak 52:34Absolutely be, which I think in some ways is like, partly why I personally relate so hard to characters who are more like a antihero in nature, because I have made those choices that maybe have definitely been villainized by groups of people, for one reason or another. You know, and I felt that they were still the right choice to make. And so it makes me feel a little less alone for sure. And then I think about like, how do I, you know, then you have to, like, unpack it, right? Like and remind yourself that, like, it was still the right choice for me and like, just because one one group of people or a large, does it, that doesn’t mean that it was a wrong choice. Con- you know, context and understood understanding of where you fall in terms of like, what you feel is ethical and moral and what have you. Also come into play, right? But that doesn’t, even if you feel like you’re on the right side, doesn’t mean that you can’t feel like you’ve done a villain thing. Right? It goes back to Lara’s whole point about with the kids and treatment centers, right? Where they’re just like, What the hell’s the point?

Lara Taylor 54:06what’s the point if you’re just gonna everybody’s gonna keep seeing me this way. So why do anything different? Yeah. To spin that to a little more of a, like, a happier note on that, like, I think about what queer person has felt like and made to feel like a villain or a hero at some point in their lives. And like, there’s a point where people get to well, you’re gonna hate me regardless. So fuck it. I’m gonna be happy. You know? I’m still gonna go do the things that make me me.

Kayla Devorak 54:39Now you’re just quoting Taylor Swift

Lara Taylor 54:43I’m not trying to! to be fair she’s written so many fucking words.

Kayla Devorak 54:47so true

Lara Taylor 54:48so many words, anything could be a Taylor Swift quote. Now. Literally, she said enough things that you could get some AI and make her say literally anything

Kayla Devorak 54:57that’s terrifying.

Lara Taylor 55:00Like Josué talks about all the time how he could make me or link or marc Say anything you probably make you say anything at this point.

Kayla Devorak 55:06That sounds like a threat Josué. maybe Josué’s in his anti hero phase?

Lara Taylor 55:14Ooh,

Kayla Devorak 55:14we should ask him.

Lara Taylor 55:16Yeah. Okay.

Link Keller 55:17All right listeners write in if you think that’s happening.

Lara Taylor 55:23But no, like how we had, like you brought up Taylor Swift. I said, there’s a problem. I’m the problem is me earlier. But yeah, like, I think it’s one of those things that like, I don’t know, people, it’s that pressure that other people put on us. And this idea that they see us as villain I. On a societal level, I have seen that personally, in my life. I don’t have much experience with that being having the privilege of growing up in the bay area. But it is definitely a thing that like, thoughts of like, well, wouldn’t it be easier? If no, no. I tend to, I tend to stick by my choices as as they even if they’re fucked up. I don’t know. Thoughts? Link? What are your villainous things you’ve done? Spill it to everybody?

Kayla Devorak 56:30How did you unpack it?

Link Keller 56:31Oh, no, I, I’m trying to

Lara Taylor 56:35lots of years of therapy.

Link Keller 56:39I you know, I mean, obviously, the just the basic like growing up, being a teen is really hard. And part of being a human. But most especially being a teen is you make mistakes, and you’re supposed to learn from them. But society is very keen to just jump on and be like, Oh, actually, you’re just a bad guy. Now. That sucks. For a more specific example of a time I was doing an antihero shit, there was someone who needed help. And I didn’t particularly want to help. And I didn’t particularly feel that they deserved my help. But somebody else said something shitty about it. And so I helped that first person just to make that second person look bad.

Kayla Devorak 57:27All right,

Link Keller 57:28so a heroic act, but for bad motivation reasons.

Lara Taylor 57:33That is very anti hero behavior.

Kayla Devorak 57:35yeah that is very anti herp behavior

Link Keller 57:37Yeah. But yeah, I think, you know, listening to you guys talk is like very much true. Once Once you make a decision, like, our brains are wired to be like that, we will rationalize as to why that was the correct decision. And that we wouldn’t change a thing, I’d always pick the same thing that I picked, even if that’s not true, but I do think it’s important to like, be aware of that, and see it reflected in our media, that that internal wrestling that we have of, you know, deciding what Acts we can do to promote the values we hold versus reactions to things that are happening to us. And having to find balance and acceptance within that space.

Kayla Devorak 58:30Absolutely. I have spent personally working through some of my anti hero stuff, I have spent a lot of time around choices, and like, okay, because since you know, I’ve made these choices, and this has resulted in these really painful experiences. How do I, you know, continue to feel like I can make, quote, unquote, right choices or can continue to trust that my choices are the right choices for me. And are sound for me, you know, because when when your choices do get villainized or appear one way to society, and they don’t care for the to understand it. It can then, right? You can spend a lot of time feeling like I can’t make choices, good choices at all. So then what does that mean, right? And so finding ways to just remind yourself, to trust in yourself when you make choices, right? And that if you’ve done the work or are doing the work, you’re going to make the choices you need to make that are correct for you, no matter what, no matter what anyone says.

Link Keller 59:50And most importantly, if you feel a little bit bad about it, I would like to remind you that we have all agreed that anti heroes are more interesting characters. So at least you are more interesting.

Lara Taylor 1:00:03you are more interesting.

Kayla Devorak 1:00:05Also, they’re my favorite characters. So

Link Keller 1:00:10all right. Well, any any other closing thoughts?

Kayla Devorak 1:00:13Yeah, I think when we play when I bring Geek Therapy adventures back, you should create an anti hero character.

Link Keller 1:00:22Okay. Done

Kayla Devorak 1:00:24go for it. And then we can see how that plays out. Because it’ll be fun. They made some

Lara Taylor 1:00:30horrible group of anti heroes.

Kayla Devorak 1:00:32Please, please, please. It’ll be fun that way.

Link Keller 1:00:37Look, I’ve tried to not play chaotic good, but it’s never worked for me. I always like swerve right back into chaotic good.

Kayla Devorak 1:00:47It’s like It’s like trying to play. It’s like trying to play Commander Shepard as like anything but a paragon doesn’t

Link Keller 1:00:54just keep sliding back over there. Paragon again? Oops.

Kayla Devorak 1:00:57Yeah. What do you mean, I have to like yell at Liara??

Link Keller 1:01:03I would NEVER do that! That’s my beautiful wife!!

Kayla Devorak 1:01:09I was just gonna say that it’s just a bunch of queer people here because not a single one of us will tell her No,

Link Keller 1:01:18it’s true.

Lara Taylor 1:01:19perfect Group. she gets whatever she wants

Link Keller 1:01:20All right. Well, she gets whatever she may be any closing thoughts Lara?

Lara Taylor 1:01:24I think my closing thought is, much like the kids that I worked with, think about like, no matter what you have done, you still can make a decision to do something different in the future.

Link Keller 1:01:34Yes.

Lara Taylor 1:01:35Those decisions you have made might be the ones that are right for you in the moment. And the things you will do in the future will be right for you in that moment. But you have gained whatever skills and tools you have. Even just listening to us ramble for an hour. You know, you have tools to do something different in the future. And that means once a villain doesn’t mean always a villain, so you can always be the antihero.

Link Keller 1:02:05Well, thank you so much for a lovely episode, and thank you to our listeners for joining in. You can find our social media links in the show notes. Drop us a comment on the forums or say hi to me in the discord. Remember to geek out and do good and we will be back next week

Lara Taylor 1:02:28mmmmBYE

Link Keller 1:02:29[whispers] thank you

Josué Cardona 1:02:31Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Nimona (2023 film and comic)
• Steve Rogers / Captain America
• Regina / Once Upon a Time
• Baru Cormorant / The Masquerade series by S. Dickinson
• Tyrion Lannister / A Song of Ice and Fire series by G.R.R. Martin
• Superman / Man of Steel (2013)
• Tony Stark / Iron Man
• Joel / The Last of Us (video game and series)
• Ellie / The Last of Us part 2
• A Rose That Grew from Concrete by Tupac Shakur
• Luca / Magic of the Lost series by C. L. Clark
• Life is Strange (video game series)
• Kratos / God of War series
• Walter White / Breaking Bad
• Bojack Horseman / Bojack
• Taylor Swift

Conversation Topics:

* Narrative roles* Change* Consequences* Death* Difficult emotions* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Guilt* Leadership* LGBT Issues* Mental Health Services* Moral dilemma* Revenge* Standing up for others* Standing up for oneself* Redemption* Sacrifice for others* Taking responsibility for one’s actions

Relatable Experience:

* Sunk Cost Fallacy* Abuse* Acceptance* Bullying* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Coming Out* Death* Fighting* Foster Care/Adoption* Loss (other than death)* Trauma

Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.com

GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.org

GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord

GT Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/geektherapy

Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Josué Cardona 0:12Hit record before Lara falls asleep old lady Lara

Link Keller 0:20[honk shoo-ing noises]

Lara Taylor 0:23that’s not me maybe it’s all of us.

Link Keller 0:26honk shoo honk shoo.

Lara Taylor 0:29Because we’re all going to be old.

Link Keller 0:32We’re all having a little midday nap.

Marc Cuiriz 0:36midday nap sounds fantastic.

Josué Cardona 0:40Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network here Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about with you today in order of oldest to youngest, Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:55Hi.

Josué Cardona 0:57I’m Josué Cardona. Link Keller

Lara Taylor 1:00he’s only a month younger than me.

Josué Cardona 1:03Link Keller.

Link Keller 1:04Hello.

Josué Cardona 1:06I’m Marc Cuiriz.

Marc Cuiriz 1:08Hello, everybody.

Josué Cardona 1:11Age before beauty Lara, what is up? What are we doing? Today? What’s the topic?

Lara Taylor 1:17Listen, I went to go see the new Indiana Jones movie. And without spoiling anything about the movie, I can tell you that Harrison Ford is old and he’s in the movie. And there’s this theme of like finding your place he’s he’s passing on a torch. We’ve talked about that before with some several other things. But this like, what do I do now? Is obsolescence feeling this feeling old and outdated. It’s funny that I want to bring this up. And I’m like, it’s a way of me processing how old I’m getting because I’m going to be 40 this year. But according to link, we’re all turning 40

Link Keller 2:00We are all turning, even you dear listener, happy birthday

Lara Taylor 2:04no matter how old are.

Link Keller 2:05happy 40th birthday

Josué Cardona 2:07Lara Sorry, you had to skip your nap to come record? I know.

Lara Taylor 2:10I know. I know. Listen, listen. Most days, I do take a nap right before we record. I wake up 15 minutes before we record. Today I did not taking that because I was playing tears at the kingdom. But this idea of well, I’m getting older. And the funny thing is, according to people, I am still a young person. I am 39. And then when I hit 40, I will I will be I will no longer be a young person, but doesn’t mean unnecessarily obsolete. But I am feeling like it feels weird to have friends that are a lot younger than me. And I have some friends that are a lot younger than me. I feel like I’m keeping up with things. But you know,I don’t know

Josué Cardona 3:03We’ll test you in a bit.

Lara Taylor 3:04We’ll see.

Josué Cardona 3:05Yeah.

Lara Taylor 3:08I don’t know, Marc. Also, as our resident young person does not know all the things. I’m just throwing that out there.

Marc Cuiriz 3:16You know, you’re right. I absolutely don’t. This when you mentioned like friends like being a lot younger than you. That brought me back to when I worked at a trampoline like Park thing. And I was the only employee aside from the the head manager that was over the age of 20. And I was like, I think I was 23. And everyone else was like 15-16. And I felt so old compared to everybody and the things these kids were saying I was like, What? What are you What, what does that mean? And they would just look at me.

Lara Taylor 4:02Yeah, ya no, last year when I was volunteering at my summer camp, I had the realization that I was I had been going to that summer camp longer than anyone on the staff had been alive. And that was a weird sensation.

Josué Cardona 4:16can you say that again?

Lara Taylor 4:16I had been going to that summer camp longer than anyone on the staff had been alive. And I have some friends from who are on the staff. And one of my closest friends now is about to be 23 but this friend is very much into the idea that we’re all turning 40 Because he has a horrible back and it’s just like, You know what? I’m turning 40, too. So, there’s that

Josué Cardona 4:5042?

Lara Taylor 4:5140 also 40 also, T O O, not T W O um, but it’s just interesting seeing And we did get, I tried to ignore the fourth Indiana Jones movie. But seeing Indiana Jones who is this, like action hero, and he still is in this movie and the new one, but seeing him go from this younger guy to running next door to the neighbors and telling them to turn them fucking music down. I, I related to that very much, too much a little too much. And it just, it just had me thinking about where I am in my life. And like, I don’t know what it’s like getting old and changing times. And not necessarily being in my 20s anymore, because I haven’t been in my 20s for almost a decade

Josué Cardona 5:55or more almost two decades.

Lara Taylor 5:57No, I was in my 20s Literally 10 years ago.

Josué Cardona 6:02Right? I forgot how

Link Keller 6:04That’s not how math works, Josué. It’s okay, you’re turning 40.

Lara Taylor 6:07stop trying to make me be older.

Link Keller 6:10Math is hard when you become forty, everyone. look out.

Josué Cardona 6:15Yeah. What was it that you related the most to in the movie? Like that, that part of?

Lara Taylor 6:19I think, like right now I’m not at the age that he’s at. I’m not at retirement age. I’m not thinking about like, what do I do after my career? Although sometimes I get into this existential brain where I’m like, What am I gonna do after? Am I ever gonna get to retire? Absolutely not, because that’s not how the world works anymore. Um, but I did relate to, like, oh, things are changing. New generations are thinking about things differently. And I’m trying to keep my brain flexible and able to, like, at least see their perspectives. I’m trying to think of a good example of that, and it has escaped me. But I don’t know. I don’t know. I work with a lot of young people. They seem to think I’m young. Literally, I had a client tell me this week, she thought I was 28. So, I don’t know.

Josué Cardona 7:20But do you how do you feel?

Lara Taylor 7:23Old? I am tired.

Link Keller 7:2469!!! NICE!! But really, no, I’m so tired. And my bones hurt

Lara Taylor 7:32very tired. And my bones hurt. And I work on my house all the time. That feels like an old person thing. Like I’m working on my house all the time. Although, you know, I have

Link Keller 7:47have your little projects and your HGTV H G TV.

Lara Taylor 7:52And I sit in front of the TV crocheting,

Link Keller 7:55and you have your own recliner. That’s your spot.

Lara Taylor 7:58I do. It’s on the couch

Josué Cardona 8:00that’s not true, right?

Lara Taylor 8:01It’s all these things are true.

Marc Cuiriz 8:04I wish i had a recliner

Lara Taylor 8:05HGTV is on. Listen, Nina has the recliner. I’ve got the recliner in the couch. But we’ve had those for quite some time now.

Marc Cuiriz 8:18I will say my, my mother in law, she had a rocking chair. And the rocking chair was my wife’s. But whenever we would go over there, that was my chair. I always sat in that chair. So now it’s with us. And even though it’s in our bedroom, like when we bring it downstairs really when we need extra chairs or whatever. That’s That’s my chair. The rocking chair is my chair. It’s so nice. Has a little creak in it too. That’s just like it just sounds just right.

Josué Cardona 8:50So so I have not seen Indiana Jones five. I want to I’m a fan. I did see four recently. I liked it.

Lara Taylor 8:58I think I think fives like a nice little wrap up. It’s cute. I like it. It’s good action movie. And they de-age Harrison Ford in the beginning of the movie.

Josué Cardona 9:10I figured it so in 4 he was already 66 And I remember watching the movie at the beginning and saying Wow, he’s really old. He’s 81 now Yeah. So like retirement age. He’s like way past retirement.

Lara Taylor 9:26Yeah, yeah. Well, and then you think of there are a lot of other things the way Hollywood skews the way we see people who are older is very I just saw another another post about people saying that every that Aunt May in the Tom Holland movies. Spider Man movies was de-aged would they de-aged her or they made her younger. And it’s like no Mercer to me is the age of Ant Man. It’s just like they didn’t make her look like she was 80 and we don’t see that. It also comes to mind like Ming Na Wen is in her

Josué Cardona 10:0550s

Lara Taylor 10:06late 50s, though, and is an action hero still.

Josué Cardona 10:12Michelle Yeoh

Lara Taylor 10:13And yet, and yet I relate more to Harrison Ford in his 80s These women who are younger but but older than me and have aged very well. I don’t know.

Josué Cardona 10:32Yeah. Have you ever seen that there’s an Amy Schumer skit where the women are there’s like all these female actresses

Link Keller 10:42oh, last fuckable day.

Josué Cardona 10:43Yeah, yep. Yep. That’s like, oh, sorry. Hey, hey, Julia. It’s your day. You just put her on a boat. Send her off.

Link Keller 10:55that was a solid skit.

Josué Cardona 10:57Yeah.

Link Keller 10:58Especially like, obviously, the way Hollywood treats like ages in movies and TV shows like it’s already pretty skewed. But especially the way women are treated where it’s like, you’re, you’re allowed to be 20 to 30. And if you’re 20, you’re playing a high schooler. And if you’re 30, you’re playing that high schooler’s mom. it’s like, oh, okay, what??

Lara Taylor 11:26Or you can be like 70 or 80 and playing old rose in Titanic. Or, you know, well, I don’t know, Golden Girls. They were they were pretty young playing The Golden Girls

Link Keller 11:42they were like in their 40s and 50s. It’s wild to think about

Lara Taylor 11:47that is wild.

Josué Cardona 11:50But Harrison Ford at 80. You know, he’s like, oh, you know, he’s, he’s a little old.

Lara Taylor 11:57Yeah, when you think about like Paul Rudd is like retirement age like,

Link Keller 12:01God. retirement age

Lara Taylor 12:04is not a thing anymore.

Link Keller 12:07It’s not real.

Marc Cuiriz 12:09No one’s always overtired.

Link Keller 12:10That was a fun. That’s real in the same way that Indiana Jones is real.

Lara Taylor 12:15Yes. Yes. Yes.

Link Keller 12:17whimsical, fantastical, and non existent in the real world.

Lara Taylor 12:24Yes.

Josué Cardona 12:26So link, you, you don’t have to reveal your true age, how do you feel?

Link Keller 12:35I am 34. And I’m turning 35 in December, and I feel ancients. And also, like 28-29? At the same time, I apologize if you guys can hear the truck. I forgot to close my friggin window. I’m sorry. Sorry. For background noise. Um, no, I, I sometimes feel very old. Especially because I’m hanging out with a with a two and a half, almost three year old and you know, thinking about like, oh my gosh, you’re growing so quickly. Like, in two years, you’re gonna be going to school and then I’m like, [noises of disgust]. But then, you know, I’m also like, I’m not I’m not that old. Like, I’m older than my parents were when they had me. I’m significantly older than my grandparents were when they had their kids. I I feel I think, hmm. Yeah, you know, I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know. I feel I feel like I have aged more quickly, physically and mentally since COVID. Started, which it is not over yet. People. Please wear masks. And I feel like just the amount of time since 2020. It’s like, oh, it’s three years is 2023. That’s three, I can count. I can do math. I’m not that old that I’ve forgotten how to do math. I’ve got that under my belt easy. But it does feel like it’s been a decade. And I don’t know sometimes I feel it in my body. But I think it’s mostly just like emotional exhaustion at having to exist in America, as it currently is. And as I exist as a queer person and a Jewish person, it’s scary and that also makes me feel old. Because what is what is? What is younger than having no fear about the present or future? That’s a young people’s game. I’m old now, and I’m terrified all the time. That’s not true people. I’ve always been scared. AHH! yeah, I don’t know, I, I really liked the we’re all turning 40 joke because I feel like that encapsulates that experience of like the time dilation of the past few years. Where, like, the actual physical passage of time does not meet up with the way that my brain is saving information about this period of time. And that is a struggle. I think the we’re all turning 40 adds like a light heartedness to it that’s kind of fun, and also sort of brings us all together, like we’re all in this together. We’re all turning 40 This year,

Lara Taylor 15:58and it works out for some people, the 80 year olds who are turning 40, great, the baby’s turning 40. Sorry, sorry,

Marc Cuiriz 16:07it’s fine. I’m fine.

Lara Taylor 16:08It’s a great equalizer.

Marc Cuiriz 16:11Everything’s fine.

Link Keller 16:13Look you’ll, you’ll be so excited for your birthday. And then you’ll have your birthday party. And then the next day, you’ll Google what the fuck is a 401k. And it’ll be fine, you’ll be fine.

Lara Taylor 16:25It’s interesting, the way we’re talking about like time is the thing that the passage of time, and then how your brain relates. So because I talk to clients all the time about how time is a measurable thing. And it’s also a construct, the way we think about things. It’s sometimes time does not feel real, which is why we get so many time travel stories.

Link Keller 16:47Absolutely. And why so many of those time travel stories, the main theme, and moral is about being present and accepting who and where you are in your life and who and when the people are around you. Which I think is an important thing that we have to keep returning to because it is very easy to forget.

Lara Taylor 17:15I also think that is a theme of the new Indiana Indiana Jones movie.

Link Keller 17:21That tracks

Lara Taylor 17:22I’ll just throw that out there.

Josué Cardona 17:24It’s got time travel confirmed? You said no spoilers.

Lara Taylor 17:26I’m not confirming anything. I’m just saying, like

Link Keller 17:30being present is a thing

Lara Taylor 17:32being present is a thing.

Link Keller 17:35What about you, Josué? How are you feeling?

Josué Cardona 17:37I’m… I’ll share a story. my team at work. Were in a meeting recently. And I brought up that oh, well, I’m going to be 40 in November. And the other two people in the meeting. The first one said he would he’s actually turning 40 in December, and the other ones turning 40 in January. And I pointed out that, wow, I’m the oldest one here. And yet, it’s obvious that I’m the only one who doesn’t have kids because I still have all my hair and it’s not all gray, cuz one of those is bald and the other one has lots of gray hair

Link Keller 18:19damn, dragged ’em

Josué Cardona 18:26age wise, had a knee that was bothering me recently. That was a new thing. But I’ve taken care of that. And I feel feel pretty good. I don’t really feel that old. I have there was a point. I think it was earlier this year. With you know, the arrival of mainstream artificial intelligence. There was a time when I was like, oh, wait a minute. Is this it? Is this where like, I can’t understand. newfangled, you know, new tech, like, you know, I’m still using my, this my VCR that I can’t program.

Lara Taylor 19:09If my dad can understand AI. You can

Josué Cardona 19:17he’s like a handy electrician. And

Lara Taylor 19:20I know, I know.

Josué Cardona 19:22You’re basically

Lara Taylor 19:23he is he is he’s a tech guy. Yeah. Yeah. But I feel like there’s no excuse. No excuse.

Josué Cardona 19:31Yeah. But I mean, I felt like that at the beginning of the year. And then I realized I’m still an early adopter and still pretty pretty current on most things. I’m just not as current as I as I used to be. Or at least not. I feel it in a way. But I’m still nowhere near other people my age. Like I’m still like the person you go to and even at work I’m like, my role is Innovation in artificial intelligence and all that stuff. So I mean, it’s even part of my job. But that was because I know this stuff. And so I still stay up to date on. And it’s a lot of things. It’s like the video games, the movies, and then the pop culture, right? Like I used to be so in tune. And sometimes I’m like, Oh, am I? What did Marc say? Is that a new? Is that a new word that people say? But it’s usually just marc making stuff up, because I’m on tiktok, I’m aware

Marc Cuiriz 20:33so I know, I hear random things on tiktok. I’m gonna use that and see what that sounds like. Yeah, and see how that works out for him.

Link Keller 20:41that’s very 40 of you. Oh, I had I had a moment the other day or a couple of weeks back, I guess, when Twitter was having issues and Reddit was not down. But the they shut off the AIP API. So other people, I don’t use the Reddit app, I use a different app. And so it’s like that was down and Twitter was down on the same day. And those two plus tiktok are like, those are the social medias that I use. And so I had this moment where I was like, This is it. I guess, I have to like, figure out how to do another like, am I gonna figure out like, what’s going on with Mastodon or, or threads? Or should I try Instagram again? And then I was like, Wait a second. I never did Facebook

Josué Cardona 21:32and you’re 40 now

Link Keller 21:332004 or whatever, when Facebook started getting really popular, and everybody moved off of MySpace and onto Facebook. And I was like, I’m just gonna sit this one out. I’ll hop back on on the next one. I was fine. You guys. I’m fine. So I was like, Okay, I guess I’m just mostly on Tik Tok. Now, I’m might try out Tumblr, I feel a weird sense of nostalgia for like the 2013 2014 Tumblr. That again, I have. I’ve never been a like, I’ve never had a user profile on Tumblr, but part of me is like, Oh, I missed the good old days. It’s very 40 of me. Um,

Lara Taylor 22:14I have a couple of younger friends like in their early 20s who are on Tumblr, because

Link Keller 22:19Tumblr is still happening I mean, there’s not a porn on it anymore, which I guess is a little disappointing, but it’s not really what I use social media for anyways. So I guess I’m fine.

Josué Cardona 22:29tumblr.com/geek therapy. So we I think we still post every episode there. I never turned that off.

Link Keller 22:33That’s fancy.

Lara Taylor 22:35I think therapeutic code is still on there.

Josué Cardona 22:37Oh, yeah. Right. Now I feel old, therapeutic code. Whoa, I remember that back in the day.

Link Keller 22:45I do have another recent story of being aware of my age, I went to a bachelor bachelorette party. And we’re hanging out and we’re doing fun stuff, and we’re having dinner and then it’s like, Okay, we’re gonna do some drinks. And then we’re gonna go to a strip club. And so one of the women there was like, Hey, I just want to put out some feelers like, are you guys? Maybe we could do some shots? And generally speaking, you know, 10 years ago, everybody in that room would have been like, WOO yeah, shots!! Very excited. Everybody was like, oh, yeah, I guess I could do one. Like, I’m into that. And so she was just like, well, you know, if you’re not feeling the tequila shot, we also have bubble water or liquid IV. And everyone’s like, Oh, I would like a liquid IV shot. I was like, Wow, this says something about us, I think. And then we went to the strip club and a dancer leaned over to me and said, Wow, you guys have such an alternative. Look to our group. I’m like, you can just say we look like a bunch of nerds. That’s fine. I thought that was really funny. That was a highlight for me. Sweet, sweet dancer being like, Wow, I’ve never seen 20 Nerds in here before wearing like, my Jurassic Park t shirt. Like, oh, people don’t usually dress like this to come here.

Josué Cardona 24:23Okay. 20 old nerds that that?

Link Keller 24:25Yeah, a bunch of a bunch of 40 year old nerds at the strip club. It was it was a fun time. But yes, the the liquid IV shots was very funny to me. That people were like jumping on that. Like, that’s a great idea. We’re doing that.

Josué Cardona 24:40Yeah. Alright, so so. I always remember when I was a counseling intern. You guys may not know this about me, but I can I can often be a little oppositional. I like to kind of argue a little bit, too. Little bit Spite is a thing that I never picked up fuels never fuels me. Yeah. And so I remember being an intern and thinking, all these people that are older than me, like what happened, like, I just went to school, I learned all this stuff, I’m really doing it wrong. And then I found research or it came up at school that said that, as you as as therapists age, they basically just stop relying on their training, and they become worse. But they think that they’re better.

Lara Taylor 25:33I think that’s the same way with driving too.

Josué Cardona 25:39Yeah, maybe

Link Keller 25:39I think that can be said for any skill set that requires like engaging with it in order to keep it like, up to skill level. And if you’re not engaging with practice, and that sort of thing. You it gets static and sedentary and

Josué Cardona 25:59yeah, no, I disagree in terms of things like psychotherapy, because you’re actually practicing it every single day. Right? You’re doing it, you’re just stopped doing it the right way. Like driving, right? Like driving, yeah, your knees, your eyesight, right, your your coordination, sports, like you can’t, you’re not gonna get better as you as you go older, right? Because you’re like, you’re hurting your body at some point, the return on your investment of time, and practice doesn’t work. But there are certain things like again, like, oh, you would think you get better, but it’s, it’s very much what happens with? Well, it’s a little different also than physicians, like physicians just don’t keep track of

Lara Taylor 26:44all the research

Josué Cardona 26:45all the research. Yeah, yeah. In psychotherapy, and I’m sure this applies to other fields as well. But in psychotherapy, it’s just like, oh, you know, like, oh, yeah, I don’t know, I figured this out. It’s fine. You know, and, and, but it’s the, what is that that Dunning Kruger effect? Is that the one that the more the less, you know, the more confident you are they you know? Yep. And yeah, and I think it’s absolutely that, right. And so I remember being at a stage where, right, I’m going to the Albert Ellis Institute, I’m like, living and breathing REPT it’s very, and I’m, and I’m learning from the people who, like learned directly from Albert Ellis, like Albert Ellis had just died a couple years before that. And until, like, they’re building this, right, like it is it is a technique, and it’s like, an actual way of doing things and very specific. And then you go on, and it was like, you know, what I ever do like this. It’s, it’s weird, but it’s something that I think about often, in just in general, I’m like, am I going to get worse as I get older? And I don’t, I don’t know if that’s happening in time in some areas. But it’s, but it’s something that I keep in mind, at least when when, like, we started talking about Indiana Jones, and yet I haven’t seen it, but even in four I was like, This guy is in his mid 60s. And this is pretty cool. Like, like, you know, like he’s, he’s, he’s fighting Nazis, he’s befriending aliens. He’s running around, like, there’s a whole bunch of stuff, that he’s having an adventure. And even though he acknowledges that he’s old, he’s still able to do and he’s still like, you know, whipping like a part of the roof and like swinging and it’s fun. And I, I have always found comfort and seeing portrayals of older people. Even just being happy and being healthy. And so now, like two years ago, I was at the best weight. I’ve been like, the lowest weight and the healthiest I’d been since I was in college. One year later, I gained all the way back and I’m not I’m still I’m still better off than I was two years ago. But I don’t, I don’t feel as great. But then there’s this feeling of like, oh, it only gets harder as you get older. And so I keep looking for those examples of, you know, shredded 67 year olds, or at the very least, who are who are able to do like calisthenics and stuff and right and you see them just like doing pull ups and it’s like, oh, okay, like it’s possible. And just seeing that as possible. And even if it’s fiction, just seeing that portrayal. Like I know it’s not real, but it’s still motivating.

Josué Cardona 27:12Well, mild spoiler. If you want shirtless Harrison Ford, you can get that in dial of destiny.

Josué Cardona 29:52Yes. So it harrison ford was in a show called shrinking on Apple TV. Which is Fantastic. I don’t think I’ve ever seen I don’t think he’s ever done a TV show before. And it’s really good. And in it, he plays a psychologist, clinical psychologist. He’s the like the owner of the practice of a group practice. And it’s funny he is like the old man in the room. He is the curmudgeonly old man and and it’s a lot of fun to see him that way. But it’s not. It’s not great to see him frail and developing Parkinson’s and all this other stuff that’s happening in the show. But I and yeah, I don’t even know right, like about to turn 40. Whenever you hit like those 10 years, right, like, it feels like a milestone.

Lara Taylor 30:48Yep.

Josué Cardona 30:49I’m like, I don’t know. 40 seems old. 40. Also, 40 is like a weird. This is a tangent here, but I’m hoping y’all have noticed this 40 is a really weird, like, crossroads. Some people really age around 40. And some people do not. I feel like you and me, Lara. We’re gonna, like, we’re gonna be we’re gonna, people will still assume we’re in our 30s for a while.

Lara Taylor 31:18And I’ll still assume I’m in my 20s so Yeah,

Josué Cardona 31:21yeah. And it has like, there’s still a youthfulness to you. I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know what’s gonna happen to me physically. We’ll see. But, but some people, like a couple years, I

Lara Taylor 31:30on the inside. I will feel old.

Josué Cardona 31:33Couple years ago, I went a couple of years ago, I went on a dating app. And I’m like, All right, I’m reaching 40. So I’m, like, you know, like, I’ll go up to like, I don’t know, 40 to 43. At first. I mean, the range of people was just like, incredible. And, and, I mean, you can see that right. Like people have married have kids. And you know, like, people who don’t.

Lara Taylor 31:55Yeah,

Josué Cardona 31:55yeah, yeah. And you can see how different it is. But this, this does feel like, like a turning point. And again, it’s just comforting to see. Like, I like tiktok a lot. A lot of tiktokers I see are older, I still am not referring to video games, a pop culture and stuff. I’ve been following ign.com Since it was super, super tiny. And some of the people are still there, right? Like, they’re, they’re in their 40s. They’re gonna hit 50 I’d be one of the founders is gotta be late 50s At this point, and they’re still talking video games, right? Like, they’re still they’re still invested in and there’s reminds me of when I was working with kids in New Jersey. They I remember a little girl was like you like video games? I was like, Who do you think makes video games? Just like, Oh, you’re right. It is adults. like kids. Kids don’t make videos. It’s like all those things are like reminders of like, oh, yeah, no, like we don’t have to sit in a rocking chair crocheting watching HGTV. Like, there’s other things that we can do as well.

Lara Taylor 32:59Yeah, yeah, I think about I mentioned my dad earlier. He just turned 75. And we think about other people his age and how if they hang around a lot of old people, they start acting even older. But my dad hangs out with people my age and younger and his grandkids and has fun. And I think like Link went to a Passover and you were at a Passover dinner with him. And he really enjoyed himself getting to be with the young people. And, and having a good time and laughing. Sometimes he rolls his eyes at some of our jokes. Because not necessarily because they go over his head, but just That’s not his thing. But um, yeah, the people we surround our with ourselves within the things we do can make us feel younger or older, I think. I don’t know. I’m never giving up the things that I loved as a kid. So I think I’m always gonna feel a little young at heart

Josué Cardona 34:00Okay, so to that point to that point, like, there are things that because we like that when we’re younger and we continue to like them when we’re older. They’re not as cool anymore. Now they’re old people things

Lara Taylor 34:14Yeah, I got that I got told that my vans that I used to wear I liked puffy skater shoes.

Josué Cardona 34:23That’s old people stuff.

Lara Taylor 34:24That’s old people stuff but I can get them from DC shoes. Yeah, but they’re old people shoes.

Josué Cardona 34:32Ol’ grandpa Tony Hawk wears vans.

Lara Taylor 34:38Marc as the young person What do you think about all this?

Marc Cuiriz 34:44I’ve never related to anything more than the things you guys have said that in my entire life. oh my i i swear like two o’clock hits at work and I am ready for a long nap.

Lara Taylor 35:02I’ve been there since I was your age.

Marc Cuiriz 35:07My my lower back hurts all the time. I constantly I used to never want to take naps. In fact, one when I, I can’t even really, I feel like I can’t even say when I was younger, because I’m still young. I’m only 26 I’m going to be 27. But I just remember like in high school and stuff, I was like, people would ask like, don’t you ever want to take a nap? And I was like, No, I think naps are a waste of time. Because I’m

Josué Cardona 35:35I’ll sleep when I’m dead

Marc Cuiriz 35:36Basically, I was like, like, I there’s a lot of things I’d like to do. Like, I could take an hour nap or I could spend that hour playing video games doing something. I just always felt like I was wasting my day. And now there’s nothing I desire more than to just take a long nap. I started golfing. And so I’m whenever I’m on the courses and stuff I just see, you know, middle aged white men. And I I just start feeling it. Like I said, my lower back’s been hurting me a lot. I feel like I just even now like even at the Taylor Swift concert, I was like, this is getting a little loud for me. Like I need. I felt like I needed earplugs. At some point.

Josué Cardona 36:24be the oldest person around.

Lara Taylor 36:27Everyone, everyone at the Taylor Swift concert should have had a earplugs. It was It wasn’t just the music. It was the people. I had to put them in because without them I could not hear Taylor Swift. So yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 36:42I don’t know, man. Like, I never really had that kind of phase where it’s like, I would go out like every weekend with friends and our I would go out drinking all the time, or I’d go out and just do a lot of fun things. I didn’t really have that. So when people do want to do things, by like, 10:30-11 o’clock at the latest depending on when I woke up that day. I’m ready to just go home, go to sleep. Like I don’t want to be out any later than midnight.

Link Keller 37:12You got that sleepy boy disease.

Marc Cuiriz 37:15I really do. I really really do

Link Keller 37:19this is so funny because I regularly go to sleep between like one and 2am but if I’m out past like 1030 I’m like this is awful. I hate this. Why are we I want to be flat in bed not asleep, but I want to be flat. I’m tired. I’m tired of this vertical life. Let me be horizontal.

Marc Cuiriz 37:42I like I visited i Very audibly have a sigh of relief every time I go into bed after after just being upright all day. I’m like, Ah, bed. This is where I want to be in my life right now. Just me in this bed with my cats. I feel like the oh,

Lara Taylor 38:01okay, Taylor.

Marc Cuiriz 38:05I feel like really some of the only things that keeps me young is is playing playing video games. But I find myself like I feel like even now I’m still kind of struggling with keeping up with things like I don’t know anything about AI stuff, cuz I don’t use it. I don’t really have time to utilize that sort of stuff. And the like the other week, my wife,

Lara Taylor 38:30Marc is older than me and Josué

Josué Cardona 38:31just the way you said it just the way you said it sounds old. I don’t know about AI stuff.

Lara Taylor 38:36You’re not that you’re not the youngest one here.

Marc Cuiriz 38:39I haven’t really not like my wife texted me the other week because she was doing like a summer camp thing for her for her work. And she’s like, Hey, do you know what this means? And it was ‘rizz’. And I was like, I have no idea. I had a google it

Link Keller 38:55i know what it means

Marc Cuiriz 38:55was like I had to google. exactly. I was like I hear it all the time. But I have no idea what it means. And I had I have to look up the lingo that kids are using nowadays. I’m like, what?

Link Keller 39:09Oh, I do I do have to tell you as someone who’s about to turn 40 If you are finding out what the new teen lingo is, it has already passed within the teen community. Unfortunately, I’m sorry if I’m the first person to tell you this but actually rizz is out already.

Marc Cuiriz 39:30Exactly. I’m like, I can’t keep up with this stuff anymore.

Josué Cardona 39:35And this is quadruplely true. If the person saw it on Instagram, that means it’s like two years.

Marc Cuiriz 39:43Oh 100%

Josué Cardona 39:44from tiktok. Yeah, so you so you know. Nothing has made me feel as old as seen juvenile sing back that ass up on NPR Tiny Desk. I was like, what is happening? There was a cello and a violinist. It was acapella. I just wow. Yeah. But in general, I, honestly, I think a lot of the things that we’re talking about is some of it is mental health. Some of it is physical health. And it’s not necessarily aging, aging. Human beings do not age well. And I do believe that we are making some crazy advances right now. Some people believe that like the first person to live to 150 has already been born. And I think that that’s probably true. That person is most likely white and rich, because I don’t think that everybody can be able to afford to do that. But we have to

Marc Cuiriz 40:53gonna be in for a rough time,

Josué Cardona 40:55they’re what?

Marc Cuiriz 40:55they’re also going to be in for a rough time. I cannot imagine spending 150 years on this earth like, No, thank you.

Lara Taylor 41:01while it boils

Josué Cardona 41:04I’m hopeful. I’m hopeful that we’re figuring some stuff out. I’m hopeful in general, I think that yes, the world, for the vast majority of people, their existence, their surroundings is just like a hot pile of garbage. But I believe that we, we could make it better. And we might. I won’t, like bet everything on it. But I see I see the potential and I’m kind of hopeful. At the least as I’ve gotten. There’s so many things like just changing your environment changing. Lara mentioned, the people that you’re around, that all of those things make a huge difference. And I do think like, self care, but just perception of of things is is huge. So like, seeing those examples of people who Oh, like, yeah, Ming-Na Wen that’s a good one. She’s like, 59 that is? That’s great.

Lara Taylor 42:05Yeah, yeah. I would be like, what? She’s forty?

Josué Cardona 42:10She’s on my list already. Yeah. Like, I need to remember that she that she exists. So I know, that I’m not dreading, you know, 60. And I think there’s a lot of examples of people who and it’s not just celebrities, who can afford, you know, whatever it is, that’s helping them get there.

Link Keller 42:33People. It’s other people, it’s to be able to afford to, to delegate a lot of your life, so that you don’t have to do it.

Lara Taylor 42:46To other people,

Link Keller 42:46other people.

Josué Cardona 42:48Yeah, yeah. Like, my life is less stressful now than it was before. And I’m glad, in some ways, in some ways, but that, again, that makes a huge difference in in feeling this way. So I think, whenever we talk about I think this is one version of like, using media to that we’re media can be a catalyst is just the general idea of hope for for a future. Like, I had a conversation with my older sister the other day, and she was freaking out about synthetic meat. And I know enough about it, where I’m like, I think I think this is good. And I think it can be a big deal. And we’re not at what’s it what’s a call in Star Trek the machine that makes the food? The replicator right? We’re not another replicator yet. Right? But it is, it is like a pretty big step. And in addressing some things in the world that can be that could be addressed but but Star Trek in general is very, is a very hopeful future. I have all sorts of issues with with with that hopeful future. But I do I do like that it exists and it’s possible and in the newer shows, they they talk about it more than that, I think you’re right, the original shows that were there, you know, they remind you of like, this is how this is what had to happen for us to get there but we got there. This is what it means. This is how people live on on earth now. And these are the things that we were able to solve to to get there. I don’t know I don’t know how I don’t know how the world is gonna look in a few if there’s anything like the world is aging poorly. More than how I feel that I’ve that I’m aging poorly. That’s That’s my mood today can be it can be different. Later. I hate seeing portrayals of Like we talked about earlier, just women especially, like, just not that oh, why she why she the grandma and why she like, Why do on top of that you put like fake wrinkles on her. And a gray wig? like, Well,

Lara Taylor 45:10why even like? Honestly, I think one of the more realistic portrayals was on this is us of having Mandy Moore they aged her, but then they aged even more as the kids were even older, right. But still, yeah,

Josué Cardona 45:35yeah. I mean, she was technically. To be fair, she was playing herself

Lara Taylor 45:39several different ages.

Josué Cardona 45:41Yeah, yeah. And the makeup was good, though. The Make up was really good.

Lara Taylor 45:45And makeup was good. And people can be the grandma, you can be a grandma, in your 40s.

Josué Cardona 45:52Like that. So if you think about how old Mandy Moore was, right? When the show was happening, she wasn’t she was in her 30s I think right. And she was playing these different. That’s, that’s, that’s fine. Right? It’s like, oh, the range. But like,

Lara Taylor 46:08they aged her to 60, they aged her to 70 or 80. You know,

Josué Cardona 46:11yeah. But like, as a, I don’t, I get a super sad story. Because, like, she gets Alzheimer’s, and you see the progression or something like that. And that. Again, that’s like I’m saying, like, there’s, there’s old age, and then there’s all this other stuff that can just

Lara Taylor 46:31in between, yeah.

Josué Cardona 46:32And that’s, that’s one of my biggest concerns. There’s an episode of Black Mirror where they go into play this video game, where it makes your worst fears come to life. And there’s this one guy whose father has has Alzheimer’s. And his biggest fears also have Alzheimer’s. So in the game, he starts losing his memory. And he, he loses all his memory and doesn’t remember who he is. It’s, it’s terrifying. It’s horrible. If you like horror, watch it. And those are, those are the things that I’m more afraid of now. Because we are older, we’re more susceptible, but like, assuming we don’t have an end, I mean, the odds of not having anything physically. Illness wise, or anything else happen to us as we get older. That’s, that’s a whole other topic. And those are like different fears, I think. But, but it is cool to see characters like Harrison Ford, at least do stuff and then, but it’s true, we will continue to experience that feeling of irrelevance. And I think that a lot of that has to do with one like our interests change, right? Like Marc, you feel like an old person because you have a house and cats and you’re married and you have a job and you’re also in school, you golf. And you have an obsession, the Assassin’s Creed. And you know, that’s time consuming. That’s, that’s a lot of stuff. You know, some people are like, you know, I don’t know, they do different things. And they may feel physically different. But I lost track of where I was going with this.

Link Keller 48:13I do. I do think that, like our generation. Our, like, millennials, our relationship to aging and feeling old is very different than our parents and grandparents. Because the ways that society has changed, and the markers that used to be guideposts for you are getting older, you are more adults, you are more mature, you’re old, whatever you want to call it, those have changed, or disappeared. And so I do think that as we get older, there will be frequently times where we are coming back to this and being like what does aging and maturing mean to us? And when we compare ourselves to our peers, and to our ancestors? Like how does that? How do we feel about that? And how do we compare to that? And is the comparison useful? Or is it detrimental? And all of that stuff is like something we are going to be returning to our entire lives, which honestly probably true for our parents and our grandparents, and the way that they compare themselves to their ancestors, but the internet man, it’s a pretty wild thing. And we’re getting to see a lot more people than any other group of people has gotten to do before and that’s only growing. So I’m very interested to see you know, the people who are graduating high school this year. 10 years from now, how are they going to feel about being like I’m almost 30. Like, what does that mean to you? As a Gen Zer got 18 year olds are still Gen Z, right? Yes, yes. Okay. I had to do a little math in my head. Um, yeah.

Josué Cardona 50:16Yeah. That that reminded me of where I was going.

Link Keller 50:19You’re welcome.

Josué Cardona 50:20Well, thank you. Thank you. I was talking to a friend about Game of Thrones and House of the dragon. And she said, You know, I think I mentioned right, the house of dragons like 1000 years before, right? Is that right? Or is it less? It’s about

Lara Taylor 50:36I think it’s like, seven or 800 years.

Josué Cardona 50:38Right.

Lara Taylor 50:39So almost a 1000?

Josué Cardona 50:40Yeah. So 800. And, and she was like, Whoa, like, not much changed from one over the course of 800 years? I was like, well, like, if that is representative of like, the middle ages for us, like, not much changed in that time. Right. And even before that, right, it’s like, it’s been exponential, the way that things change, just like 120 years, they were a turn of the century, like, things are very different than they were in the 50s. And by them by the 70s, the world is completely different. 80s 90s, like, the changes have been so rapid, that I think, as we get older, the particularly for millennials and older, the world has moved faster and faster and faster, or at least has changed faster and faster. I saw something recently about Gen. A, and how they maybe maybe Gen Z 20 cent, but Gen. Gen a for sure. You know, how we used to joke like, oh, you know, ask the kids about the technology, they’ll help you because they’re better with it. You know, we were the kids who helped our parents. Gen a sucks at this. Because, because their their technology isn’t evolving. Like it’s they were born with a where they’re born with a touch with, you know, with like a touchscreen in their hands. And, like, iPhones have gotten a little smaller over the last 15 years, you know, like tablets and stuff. But like, there’s been no crazy evolution for them to, for the for there to be like that generational learning curve, or even the change or like when we were born, except for Marc, right? Like, internet was not like, everywhere, right? Like,

Lara Taylor 52:20no,

Josué Cardona 52:21I got internet at home when I was 14.

Lara Taylor 52:25I got internet at home when I was and I was on the leading side of it around when I was like nine, I think?

Josué Cardona 52:31yeah, that’s even Yeah. And I thought I was a cutting edge. And, you know, 32 megabyte hard drive, what?!

Lara Taylor 52:40486 computers.

Josué Cardona 52:46And it was, it was holy shit like our parents were freaking out. You know? What? Yeah, the things that just everything changed, right? Everything kept changing. You know, there was no television, right for our grandparents, and that there was television then it was in color. Like he’s different. I saw a joke on tick tock, or teacher said that his his student asked him and he seemed to be serious if YouTube was black and white when he was younger.

Link Keller 53:19Oh I love that, yes, actually, color didn’t exist yet.

Josué Cardona 53:25And like, sure YouTube is better today than it was 10 years ago. Google is better today than it was 15 years ago. But that hasn’t changed much. I mean, now with, you know, mainstream versions of what we’re calling AI, things are, I think that’s a big change, right? Where we’re, the way that we’re accessing information is different. But finally, right. It’s been a while since we had a big a big change.

Link Keller 53:51I don’t know, I feel like there’s been lots of big changes, but the the way that technology has come to interact with capitalism has put a whole bunch of stuff behind a wall. And I mean, if we’re, if we’re bringing up Apple, like the the iPhone, and iPads, and Chromebooks and everything, as those have become so much of like, a brand that is about making money, the access to how these things are made and how they work have become less accessible. And so it’s like, we were, you know, using Windows 95, or whatever and learning

Lara Taylor 54:39MS DOS

Link Keller 54:40about how the files worked within a computer. All of that stuff is now like, Apple doesn’t want you to really engage with that end of this technology. They want that to be something that they own and control and get money for. And so those aren’t like the playground of learning how these things work isn’t available to kids right now they have to find access through other ways in order to get to that back end stuff.

Josué Cardona 55:13I disagree like 100%, with everything you just said.

Link Keller 55:17okay

Josué Cardona 55:18Yeah, it’s especially from the capitalist sense of like, there, it’s more accessible than ever, because the more people have access

Link Keller 55:26I don’t mean access to the technology, I mean, access to like, the back end, right is like, when I got my first laptop, I was putting things together myself, I was figuring out how programs would run, I was figuring out how to get you know, a CD to run on the computer like the now is like, you just put the disc in actually, now, we don’t even have discs, people don’t download it, you just download it, and it just goes and you press the play button, and it just plays versus having to like install eight disks of Sims. And then make sure you have the right disk in so that when you launch the program, it has the right file connection, and you can see it and make that work. That’s the stuff that is not accessible anymore. It is still accessible. It’s not the same level, right is like more people have access to technology. But less people have access to that nitty gritty learning about how it works and connects, and the pieces move. And now it’s just like, you push the power button and it turns on and then you click the app, you click YouTube and it opens up YouTube. I mean, even like navigating, right is like we I took classes on how to learn how to like navigate search engines, and now it’s just like no, you typing into Google. And then at the end of your your search statement, you add ‘reddit’ so it’ll actually give you the information you need. Sorry, that’s a sad joke. But yeah, it’s

Lara Taylor 56:50a lot of kids don’t know how to use the like, quotes around things to keep an actual, like an exact phrase in their search. They don’t know how to use it don’t know how to Yeah, I

Link Keller 56:58mean, you know, I mean, boolean searches aren’t as big of a thing now. But yeah, it’s it’s like absolutely agree, technology itself is so much more accessible than ever before. And that is continuing, however, is the way that we engage with those, those pieces of technology has changed. Where it is very much less about the technology as a tool and learning how to use it and where you can use it and trying new ways to use and that sort of thing. And instead we are being given like a set thing, you can’t change it, it is the way it is. It works the way we say it works. That’s it. And it’s like in order to get to that other stuff, you have to be like, really into it and maybe have access to people who can teach you how to do those things. But like, you know, I like I remember, like trying to figure out how to like code stuff on the library computer, and like going into the commands program and everything. And now it’s just like, you get a Chromebook. And it will break. Like, oh, okay, not not the same kind of play space. Does that makes sense?

Josué Cardona 58:15Yeah, I, I could argue, but I’m but I’m not.

Link Keller 58:16I mean, I’m fine with us disagreeing on this one. I just, I just wanted to clarify those like, I don’t mean like, yeah, obviously, like, technology is more available now. But it’s just the way that we interact with the technology has changed. And I blame capitalism, as I’ll say it.

Josué Cardona 58:37I want to I want to point out that link is the oldest person here, because you just spent five minutes saying back in my day,

Link Keller 58:47back in my day,

Josué Cardona 58:49things were better.

Marc Cuiriz 58:51So glad someone took that title from me

Link Keller 58:54[whispers] back in my day,

Lara Taylor 58:56if anyone wants to really feel old, this just in from Kayla. Orange is the New Black came out 10 years ago.

Link Keller 59:04I was gonna say earlier, scrolling through Twitter, and Twitter kept showing me this person I don’t follow but it was just an account that was like, ask Reddit threads, or am I the asshole Reddit threads just reposted on Twitter. And I was just like, I’m so tired of seeing this. I’m just gonna block this user. I don’t want to see that content. And Twitter was just like, Oh, you don’t want to see that content. Okay, we’re going to really switch it up and instead show you this other Twitter user who just posts like, famous movie came out 38 years ago and I’m like, can you Okay? All right. I’m old. Can we stop? You’re bullying me Twitter! Stop it! Oh, your favorite movie when you were a kid? That was 100 years ago. Did you know that? I’m like, fuck you, stop it

Josué Cardona 59:57Yeah. Link when you were a kid Is YouTube in black and white?

Link Keller 1:00:01It was

Josué Cardona 1:00:02cool.

Link Keller 1:00:03It was actually, you had to order it through a magazine. I don’t know if you guys remember magazines, but you had to order it through the magazine and then YouTube would send you a flip book. You just flip through it black and white. You know, classic, the classic early internet experience.

Lara Taylor 1:00:21Listen y’all. I did have a black and white computer monitor. But YouTube was not on it.

Josué Cardona 1:00:29Yeah, cuz you got it when you’re nine. Almost 60 years ago.

Lara Taylor 1:00:33No, I got it. When I was five.

Josué Cardona 1:00:37Got it? Oh, by Internet you got when you were nine. That’s what you said maybe

Lara Taylor 1:00:41maybe earlier. My mom was. My mom was around when I was nine. And yeah, I think we had it when I was either eight or nine. And then cable came along. Cable Internet came along in my house. Like when I was like, 12 ish- 13 ish.

Josué Cardona 1:01:00Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I don’t know that there’s, there’s, there’s we’re all aging. This is true. Your experience

Lara Taylor 1:01:09every single person, even the babies.

Josué Cardona 1:01:11It’s true. Time passes. And we age. But it’s very different for different people for different reasons. And I think that there. Yeah, I mean, we’re out of time. But there’s, there are. There are many, I think both cautionary tales. And I mean, at this at this age, we we can learn a lot. I mean, I think we’ve learned a lot just from being alive. Thankfully, there’s a lot of examples of people who are older than us who can serve as an example. I prefer or I tend to gravitate towards the negative examples. I’m like, what they do I want to do the opposite, I don’t wanna do what they did. But that and hopefully we’ll continue to see this and like how characters, right, that are portraying, like you, it’s part of the representation piece that we’ve talked about as well, like, ageism is a thing. And it’s um, yeah, good for you. Harrison Ford.

Lara Taylor 1:02:25Listen, if Indiana Jones can be 80 and have a wonderful adventure, an exciting adventure. Life for us does not need to end at 40

Josué Cardona 1:02:36Yeah, yeah. I just saw the Rocky movies recently. That was interesting to like, see him over time. I wonder if like Mission Impossible is going to have one of those where like Tom Cruise at the end? It’s like just retires or is it going to be more like TopGun where it’s like, Hey, he’s old. Ha, this old guy What’s he going to teach you? That’s like actually, I have some the best of the best. And you can learn something from me lots of example of there. link closing thoughts.

Link Keller 1:03:09Ah, Happy Birthday everybody. Happy 40th birthday.

Josué Cardona 1:03:17Oh, Marc?

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:19You guys kept me up past my bedtime.

Josué Cardona 1:03:23Yeah,

Link Keller 1:03:24gotta take your take your Alka Seltzer and go to bed.

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:29Yeah, right.

Josué Cardona 1:03:31Everybody taking a Metamucil? Yeah good

Link Keller 1:03:34magnesium

Josué Cardona 1:03:35Lara?

Lara Taylor 1:03:36No, no

Josué Cardona 1:03:38Lara, closing thoughts

Lara Taylor 1:03:43I think my closing thought was that like if the if Harrison Ford if Indiana Jones can have an adventure. Life is not over for those of us turning 40 which is all of us this year. So there’s hope for us yet

Link Keller 1:03:58my actual my actual final thought of obsolescence is not a thing that you should apply to people people do not become obsolete we die that’s different. So if you’re feeling it, tell that feeling shut the fuck up and get out of here. I’m a human being and I’m growing and I’m changing and that’s beautiful.

Josué Cardona 1:04:25We’re not we don’t go obsolete. Tell that to the AI.

Link Keller 1:04:29AI can’t do shit without me.

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:32Yet

Link Keller 1:04:35ever. You cannot have an echo without an original voice. Okay.

Josué Cardona 1:04:45It’s a chicken and egg thing.

Lara Taylor 1:04:47But you can you can have a google home without

Link Keller 1:04:53a home? aww

Lara Taylor 1:04:56without an original voice

Josué Cardona 1:04:59Yeah, I mean, this was implied but this is this type of existential dread. And crisis from aging is true is real. Talk to your therapist about it. Reach out to, to your old folks, they might need a little bit of support because it can be lonely as you get older and it can be painful like like Marc and link who are just like in so much pain all the time. But I hope you all age like Lara and I who are actually turning 40 and doing all right. All right. All right,

Lara Taylor 1:05:40thriving,

Josué Cardona 1:05:41thriving. Alright, thank you for joining us on this episode of GT radio for more Geek Therapy, visit geek therapy.org. Show notes got links to all of our community spaces. Let us know. How old you feel? How old you look? I don’t know. Whatever. Whatever you want has to do with age who’s your favorite aged person in media, fictional or otherwise? And who do you really who sounded the oldest on this episode?

Lara Taylor 1:06:19Love to hear would love to hear from people.

Josué Cardona 1:06:21I thought it was Marc, right up right up until like 10 minutes ago.

Link Keller 1:06:25you can say it’s me. I’m willing to take it. I’ll take it.

Josué Cardona 1:06:28Yeah. And yeah, Link, I’ll get off your lawn, thank you again, everybody. Remember to geek out and do good. We’ll be back next week. Oh,

Link Keller 1:06:41I was wearing an onion on my belts. As was the [forgets the end of the quote and bails] Simpsons. mBye.

Josué Cardona 1:06:55Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny (2023)
• Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull (2008)
• Taylor Swift
• Star Trek
• This is Us
• Black Mirror
• Game of Thrones
• House of the Dragon
• Assassin’s Creed
• Orange is the New Black
• Rocky (movie series)
• Mission Impossible (movie series)

Conversation Topics:

* Dunning Kruger Effect* REPT* Alzheimer’s* Burnout* Change* Cultural representation* Difficult emotions* Family* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* The inescapable passage of time

Relatable Experience:

* Existential dread* Acceptance* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Fear/Anxiety* Health (Physical)* New Life Event (New Rules)

Check out the GT Network: network.geektherapy.com

GT Forum: forum.geektherapy.org

GT Discord: geektherapy.com/discord

GT Facebook Group: facebook.com/groups/geektherapy

Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Marc Cuiriz 0:11Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Geek Therapy radio where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. I am one of your wonderful co hosts Marc Cuiriz and joined with me tonight is Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:30Hey

Marc Cuiriz 0:32and Josué Cardona.

Josué Cardona 0:34What’s up?

Marc Cuiriz 0:35Hello guys.

Josué Cardona 0:36Hello.

Marc Cuiriz 0:37The time has finally come. We we got to we got to talk about across a spider verse. We already knew Spider Man was going to be coming up I talked about it a couple episodes ago briefly. tried really hard to not go too much into it. But now we got to go into it.

Josué Cardona 0:58i It was my fault. I it took me a while to watch it. Finally. I hadn’t gone to the theater since the last Spider Man movie that came out. That was actually the last time I went to the movies was for no way out. No way. Oh, no way home.

Lara Taylor 1:14Spider Spider Man book ends on your movie theater experience.

Josué Cardona 1:18Yep.

Marc Cuiriz 1:21So I think I just want to know what what were your initial thoughts, feelings, reactions, emotions. All the good stuff. Lara, what do you think of the movie?

Lara Taylor 1:34It’s been longer since I’ve seen the movie since? Well, since Josué at least cuz I saw it opening weekend. I loved it. I thought there was a lot of good, good meaty, juicy Geek Therapy stuff in there. I cried a lot during the movie. And I have been talking with clients about it a lot. There’s a lot of cool stuff in there. I have a friend who is obsessed, watched it like last week and is like texting me constantly like novels about what his thoughts on this movie are. But again, did not disappoint. My only complaint is that it’s a two parter. And I have to wait for all the things.

Josué Cardona 2:20spoilers. It’s a part one. I’m glad that they they decided not to call it the cross a spider as part one and two, which was the original.

Lara Taylor 2:32I liked like into a cross and beyond, like, I like that.

Josué Cardona 2:36Yeah, it’s cool. I love the first one. So of course, like I had to. I wanted to see this one as soon as possible. There’s a lot of things that I like about this movie. But my overall impression was that I found it overwhelming. Like,

Lara Taylor 2:56there’s a lot like you have pause to be able to see.

Josué Cardona 3:01Yeah,

Lara Taylor 3:01hundreds of hundreds of Spider Men’s

Josué Cardona 3:04like, like I was telling someone the other day about this. I was like, yeah, if you just want to focus on like, no, like, there’s a lot there’s a lot going on, and then everything that makes it so cool visually, which are the different styles again, like I don’t know why I just came out of theater, like, exhausted. Like, I think part of it is to that for the last few years. I I rarely sit down to watch a movie from beginning to end. At that day, I did a double feature like I went to two movies. And this one

Lara Taylor 3:38two multiverse movies. Yeah, I think are exhausting too.

Josué Cardona 3:43Yeah, yeah. But But yeah, by the end of it, I was like, I felt like I like my brain had gotten beat up. It was it was it was a lot. A lot a lot. But did I like it? Oh yeah. Love it. I can’t wait to get into the the be the best reasons why.

Marc Cuiriz 4:05Yeah, I I’m like Lara, I saw it opening night and I I walked away from that movie. One, just completely taken away. I loved the movie so much. I loved all the different art styles. I really liked how they did like Gwen’s like perspective of things and like how that a lot of it was focused on her development as well. And I also walked away surprised because I know like at the end when they you know, do like, oh, the return or whatever. It’s a 2024 I was like, wow, okay, next year, I’m here for it. And then of course, you know, you hear the news later, they’re like, no, no, we have to push it back to like 2026 which I’m like, okay, that’s totally fine. But

Josué Cardona 4:59is that true

Marc Cuiriz 4:59also

Lara Taylor 5:00That one actually might not be true.

Marc Cuiriz 5:02Yeah, I mean, either way, I think it’s going to be delayed to

Lara Taylor 5:07writers strike and all of that can also move things

Marc Cuiriz 5:09Exactly.

Lara Taylor 5:10Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 5:11But I know they were talking about potentially delaying it to 2026 to make sure everything is flushed out and is the best, you know, and there are words the best it can be. Because if they were to try to pump that movie out by 2024, I have a feeling a lot of people would be disappointed. But,

Lara Taylor 5:33yeah, I saw I saw the same kind of thing online that said that it was going to be delayed till 2026. And then somebody was like, this is fake and showed like details on why that post was fake. But other people are saying that, that are in that are like animators are saying there’s no way it’s going to be in 2024. But it’s still scheduled to come out March 2024.

Josué Cardona 5:59Yeah, that’s what that’s what that’s what I still see. Anyway, that’s not what the show is about.

Lara Taylor 6:05That’s how excited we are about it, we want the next one right now.

Josué Cardona 6:08So disappointed. Oh, I can’t wait that long.

Lara Taylor 6:13Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 6:15But no, this movie, this, I think this movie was definitely though, is, is very overwhelming. And it’s definitely one where I’m gonna want to watch it back and like, pause it at certain points or like, try to slow it down at certain points, just so that way I can try to take in everything. And because I feel like especially in the moments where it didn’t show like all the Spider Men, I was like, looking around the entire screen trying to find ones that I recognized, but also ones that like I felt like should be in there. Like a one in particular that is just would have just been a funny little like, gag, to me, was the Spooder Man meme. Or it’s like the poorly drawn Spider Man, I was looking all over for it just so I can say like, Yes, I saw it. It’s there. It’s confirmed,

Josué Cardona 7:04there’s a whole other movie.

Marc Cuiriz 7:06I know.

Josué Cardona 7:07Three hours for you.

Marc Cuiriz 7:10It may or may not make its appearance. But like I just remember I was like looking around everywhere. Just trying to take it all in and like the sequences especially are going by so fast. That it’s it’s impossible without having to like pause it and like taking a look around and like giving yourself a moment to process everything that’s going on. In short scenes.

Lara Taylor 7:33One of my clients told me, I feel bad for whoever is going to have to do the easter egg videos for for this movie. and I agree.

Josué Cardona 7:44The easter egg video is coming out in 2026.

Lara Taylor 7:47That’s the one that’s gonna be delayed

Josué Cardona 7:48that’s the one delayed yeah yeah, no, no, it was it was a lot. And I think maybe because we’re fans like it was more overwhelming for me, because it wasn’t just noise. I was like, oh, no, those are like, actual characters.

Lara Taylor 8:04I want to know who they are.

Josué Cardona 8:06Yeah, yeah. or I Recognize them. Yeah. And I was like, oh,

Marc Cuiriz 8:12yeah, I found myself after the movie. Trying to like I was like, on wikis. And I was like, looking up ones that I knew. And then trying to like, I was like, Okay, I remember this one look like that. So I was looking at pictures. And then I was trying to find it. And then I was just going down a rabbit hole of like reading about all these different variations of spider man and everything like that. And I was like, this is this is too much. This is a lot.

Josué Cardona 8:36Yeah, yeah. And the subject matter was also

Marc Cuiriz 8:41Oh, 100%. Yeah, like I know, a couple of weeks ago, I talked a little bit about one of the big themes that I I saw during the film, which was kind of like, kind of coming into your own and kind of like establishing like your own identity and who you are, and kind of letting yourself being able to tell your own story and things like that, instead of having other people try to tell you what your life should be like or things like that. And it was definitely one that like, I feel like, hits home for a lot of people, myself included, of like, you feel like your whole life, you have to live up to other people’s expectations, or, you know, other people are trying to tell you how you’re supposed to live your life or you’re supposed to do things a certain way and things like that. And sort of being able to come into your own and say like, no, no, no, like, this is my life. This is my story. This is I’m going to do things however, I want to do them and no one’s going to be able to tell me otherwise. But also starting to understand just what exactly that means because initially that might sound great. But then you also think about the consequences and the ramifications potentially, of the choices that you do make as your own person. And as you come in and solidify who you are as a person, things like that.

Josué Cardona 10:14So how is that connected to the, to the movie.

Marc Cuiriz 10:18So like with Miles like he is growing up, like he’s becoming a teenager, he wants to do his own thing. And you see, like, you know, like in the first movie, he’s got a pretty good relationship with his mom, dad, things like that. And in this movie, like in the beginning, you’re starting to see the tensions go up between him and his parents, like he’s like, because he’s, I mean, in his case, he’s lying, because, you know, he’s spider man. And he’s, you know, doing all those antics and shenanigans. But because of that, lying, he’s creating tension he’s arguing with the more he’s talking back to them. And he is hiding things from them. And as any teenager would, you know, can kind of relate to and understand that as you grow up. And as you start trying to figure out who you are as an individual. Sometimes your parents might not, you feel like your parents or might not be able to understand what it is that you’re going through, or the situations you’re in. And so you lie, you keep those secrets, or, in some cases, you might sneak out and you might do things which creates problems and tensions. And that’s what’s going on with miles. And then that translates even more when he meets all these other different spider man when he goes to the, the the main area, the main hub of spider man. And they’re basically saying, like, you don’t belong here. Like, this is how a Spider Man story is supposed to go. And one, you disrupted one. So now we have to try to fix that. But to like, this is something that you’re not supposed to interfere with. They’re supposed to let this happen. And now that he’s a spider man, he has to experience his own, you know, Canon events, his own things, because that’s how it’s supposed to go. And you’re not supposed to let that change. And they’re trying to tell him that but he’s like, but no, like, our job is to save people and protect people. So why can’t I have both?

Lara Taylor 12:21I know, you want to talk about canon events. But one thing that was as you were talking that came up is something a thread that I’ve followed with a lot of people that I work with, and with friends of mine, about the idea that you talked about last time, when I wasn’t around the belonging and the like that this idea of the parents coming together are the parents and the kids being at odds and having to hide yourself because, you know, you’re not living up to their expectations, and you’re keeping these secrets and you’re figuring out who you are. A lot of people in the trans community are rallying around Gwen as a trans icon and are hoping, I don’t know if they’re gonna go this far, but hoping that they’re going to have her become a trans be a trans character. There’s this moment where she’s talking with her dad and talking about this is who I am. And this is who I’m going to be, and this big moment, and she is washed in trans colors, which to be fair, are her colors pink and blue and white, but the people in the community are like, no, they emphasized it even more in that exact moment when she stood up for herself. And sometimes her blue can look kind of green, and they made it very blue, like trans blue. And she also has a protect trans kids poster on her wall in the in the movie. And I just think it’s really cool that this whole community is like, decided and superhero movies are like this. And stories are like this anyway, we see it with X Men, and it’s been like this with Spider Man before but this idea that you have to mask who you are and hide who you really are around others because of the danger around you. And then somebody stands up for themselves. And I think it’s really cool that the community has done this. But, yeah, yeah,

Josué Cardona 14:18one of the cool things about superpowers is that we don’t none of us have superpowers. So they can, they can be metaphorical for for different things and you can relate to having, you know, the power can be a particular experience or, or something else. And the colors thing. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s deliberate.

Lara Taylor 14:41I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t either. Yeah. Especially since it’s in that same timeframe is when you see the protect trans kids sign over the door.

Josué Cardona 14:51Yeah.

Lara Taylor 14:52Yeah. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 14:58I know this isn’t where the episode was gonna go. But I’m curious. Would it? What if they don’t address it directly?

Lara Taylor 15:16I’ve had this conversation with friends, mostly that I think it would still be okay. That ambiguity. I have some people that are like, no, it needs to be. It needs to be clear. But other people are like, I’m fine with the ambiguity. No one’s telling me she’s not. So in my head, she can be. Right. So, I think that the piece that people are finding someone, especially in this time, where there’s so much turmoil about how people view trans people having a character like that in a very popular movie that they can say, That’s me. I think that’s great. Whether they at the studio actually comes out and says something, but the amount of representation in this movie, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was, if it was deliberate that they did that. I think, even if they don’t come out and say it, I think that it was deliberate to in that moment, watch her in those colors, whether she’s supposed to be trans or not.

Josué Cardona 16:28Yeah, yeah. And so when we are, the episode that we did around, into the spider verse is one of the favorite one of my favorite ones that we were done. Because at that time, there was a trend on social media about spider Sonas. And people are drawn drawing their own, like themselves,

Lara Taylor 16:53I have mine on my desk, and I moved.

Josué Cardona 16:58And it was so fun, like, we each it. So what we did, right, each of us drew, Marc, this was before your time,

Marc Cuiriz 17:04I remember the episode.

Josué Cardona 17:05So I was Brandon, right. And so we made these, and we put them on social media. And it was, it was a lot of fun to create these versions of ourselves. And so it seems that the trend happening now around the movie. Marc, you were explaining to us before the show before, before we started recording, is this idea of canon events. And so like you were, but um, it’s interesting, because everything you were saying. So let me let me see if I get if I understand what canon events are, according to how people are using it, you correct me if I get it wrong, but it’s this idea of identity defining or life defining events, that would happen. So in it’s almost like changing the idea of like, like when people say like, this is my villain, my villain origin story, right? Or like, this is my origin story. It’s kind of like this is they’re, they’re using Canon event in place of that. In the movie, Canon event, they, there’s 1000s of them. So they talk about it as like what they all have in common. And so I’m curious, the trend is, is it just people in the singular saying like, Oh, this is, this is my Canon event. This is like, what made me who I am? Or is it like, me, and everybody liked me all have this event in common?

Marc Cuiriz 18:32I think it’s more like the first one where it’s okay. Yeah, it’s more of like, this is me as an individual. This is this is what my event is, that this is the defining trait. And, you know, I’ve seen different variations of it on tik tok of, you know, ones that are, you know, kind of jokey, you know, they have random explanations, things like that. But I definitely feel like it is a topic or like a thing that can be addressed in a lot of different ways to kind of have somebody sort of explain how exactly they’re viewing themselves, or what the, what events in their life that they view as the most important and what what has defined them or made them who they are as, as a person are what set them on the path that they ended up choosing in life, things like that. Obviously, those events can be both positive and negative. But I think like that’s an interesting thing to kind of explore with people of like, well, what what are your cannon events? What are the things in life that you think have the most significance to you as an individual that made you be or made you go down the path that you chose to go down as a as a person?

Josué Cardona 19:49This is confusing for me, right? Like, like the, the terminology and I’ve explained this to many people in the past as well. So I want to make sure we do that here because it might be helpful for you which is, in fiction, when you talk about something that is canon. There’s canons of being like the official.

Lara Taylor 20:11Right, like if you had a rulebook if you had a rulebook for that world, that story, the Canon things are the things that are that happened. And then everything else is like Extended Universe, or like, fanfic.

Josué Cardona 20:26Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it’s weird, right? It’s like, so who is the author of the canon? Right? Or in the case of Star Wars, right? Star Wars canon changed? At some point?

Lara Taylor 20:41The person, the company, the corporation that owned it changed

Josué Cardona 20:45Yep. And they said, Okay, Canon is now this and all these other things are stories that were told, but they’re not real. They don’t influence the future. One of my my favorite things that has happened in recent years is the retconning. Right of these multiverses, right, where suddenly, all the DC shows and movies are all part of the deal. You know, they’re all connected, then Marvel the same way. Right? Like, in in no way, no way home? In no way home, right? Where it’s like, oh, all of these spider men exist in the same place. And like in this movie, right? There’s, there’s all of these different characters who, even though we never thought that they were now according to, you know, the rulebook they all exist in kind of in the same multiverse. And so I like that, like the this is, this is, these are the rules. This is the official thing. There can be other stories, but they’re not necessarily. They’re, like in anime. This one. This one is confusing. Me too. So, and a lot of anime. Not all, but a lot of anime are based on manga. And then the, their anime that are considered there are some episodes that are considered canon, because they they are telling the story that was in the manga. And then, as you’re producing the anime, sometimes the the manga, is moving slower than the anime. So then the anime gets to a point where it’s covered all of the manga so far, and it has to continue, while waiting for more of the manga to be written. So then they create filler, what they call filler episodes, which are continued stories, you’re still telling stories. But they will never influence the main story. It is so weird to watch filler and have that in your mind where like, oh, none of this actually matters. Because they will never reference it. It will none of these characters will die. They will have no significant events here. Because this show follows the the manga canon, and so they can’t, they just can’t do anything. And it’s weird, because a lot of those stories are a lot of fun. And like incredibly well done. But then when you when you look back, you’re like, oh, yeah, none of that matters. It’s very, it’s very strange. But yeah, I hope I’ve explained canon in a traditional sense, well,

Lara Taylor 23:19so in this in the movie, they’re explaining canon events as the events that are primary to your life to a person’s life to the Spider Man’s life, quote, unquote, Spider Man. Spider people. Um, what I think is really interesting is this idea of figuring out what are the events that changed who you are changed your trajectory in life is something that I do with clients, we do timelines, and like, look at what are these pivotal moments that you remember? Good and bad, right? What are the things that make you? What are the things that are pivotal to you that you remember most? Those are their cannon events, the ones that have imprinted on them so much. I think for me, one of my earliest ones is probably my first trip to Disneyland that I can remember when I tried to go on the Matterhorn and that screwed me up and I didn’t go on that ride till I was nine when I tried to go on the ride. I didn’t go on again till I was 21. So that happened. And then of course, we’ve talked about a million times like my mom’s death is a big piece of who I’ve become, and where I’ve gone. And that started don’t me on a trajectory of like my first day at camp, which is another piece and then that started me I think about these things. If this hadn’t happened, then all these other things in my life wouldn’t have happened I’d be in a very different place. So I think those are the canon events that you could argue that that’s canon events, but also like the thing Throughout your life, what are the things that are the pivotal things that you remember those like moments that have been imprinted in your brain?

Josué Cardona 25:12I was I was struggling with how are we going to talk about this? In terms of relatability? Because real life, like, everything is canon in real life, right? Like everything that happened to you actually happen to you. I mean, we can get into a whole thing about human memory, being garbage and all that, you know, but they use

Lara Taylor 25:34Canon slightly differently than we think of canon

Josué Cardona 25:37No, of course, writing the story writing the movie, it’s completely different. That’s why I’m saying like, in our, in our lives, if we’re saying like, what is canon? It’s like, all those things. Like, it’ll happen, right? If we’re looking at it as like, what’s, what counts and what doesn’t count. But, and Marc, you can use this one, because I hadn’t thought about it this way. But I like this as the potential intervention is, if you could retcon something out of your out of your past. Right? Like, how would that affect your future? Maybe like, you talked about the the timelines piece, right? If you look at all those events, and they’re, yeah, like, you your mom’s death is the thing that really happened, you’ll never retcon one, right? But maybe there’s another experience, right? Like a bad experience. So you could just be like, Damn, I’m not gonna, like, I don’t want that one to define me, you know, and that’s like, oh, that inspires you to like, work through a particular trauma, or do certain exercises or make a change in your life, right? Like, I’m not gonna let this particular thing define who I am the future. And like, letting go of that. Within this framing, I think, I think I think works.

Lara Taylor 26:44And some trauma modalities, you look at narrative therapy, or you look at cognitive processing therapy, your The idea is to change how you think about that event. So even if you can’t retcon something big, and can get it out of there completely, you can think about you can change how you’re thinking about it and how you tell the story to yourself

Josué Cardona 27:05all CBT is based on that

Lara Taylor 27:06Exactly, exactly. Yeah, we can’t just wish away or think away a bad thing that has happened to us. But we can definitely think about it differently. And even if it’s so hard to think about, and it was still a difficult thing, like we can take ownership of that story. And Josué you brought up who’s telling the story who’s making the canon, you make the canon, not some other person, you’re making your own canon. So I like I like that it plays this whole idea of canon events. And this plays into a lot of things that are basic, like timelines that can apply to most modalities, but also like CBT RBT. Narrative Therapy. I mean, I mentioned Cognitive Processing Therapy. That’s a form of CBT. So yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:52I have another view, watch the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Lara Taylor 27:57It has been a very long time. But yes.

Josué Cardona 27:59Have you ever seen it Marc?

Marc Cuiriz 28:01I’ve I’ve heard of it. And I’ve had people tell me to watch it. I just have never gotten around to it. But I know about the movie.

Josué Cardona 28:06Yeah. So the premise is right, that this, this guy has a really bad breakup. And he can’t stop thinking about about his ex. So he goes to a doctor, Dr. Bruce Banner, and he who has a machine where he can like delete memories from your mind. And he’s like, I don’t want to remember this person. y’know, It’s like, that’s it’s a fun movie idea. But it’s hard to do. But the idea, right, but this idea of canon like nah, that was a filler episode, that doesn’t impact the overall story. Like this, you can use that one, Marc and everybody

Marc Cuiriz 28:41I was I was totally thinking about that. Because I was like, Yeah, you know, like, there are things where you can, like, yes, everything is canon. And even filler can be canon. But it doesn’t mean it has any sort of

Josué Cardona 28:53What do you mean, filler can be canon?

Marc Cuiriz 28:55I’m not saying that like it is I’m saying like, I think in some ways, I think in some cases that like, in the sense we’re filler has no like significance to the contributing story. You can say like, oh, yeah, that episode had happened it you know, it did a thing. But that doesn’t mean it has any impact into what the actual, what the actual story is, or who you are like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, it happened. But it doesn’t mean like it’s a defining story or an arc or anything like that. Like, the one that kind of comes to mind is like, a Dragonball Z with Gohan when he’s doing his training stuff. Before Vegeta comes like way early on in the series, all that training stuff where he’s like, going off on adventures, things like that. It’s all filler has absolutely no significance to the story whatsoever. But it’s still stuff that you can say yeah, that happened. Gohan did go through all of that. But that doesn’t mean it plays any sort of significance into what the main story actually is.

Josué Cardona 29:57garlic JR never happened.

Marc Cuiriz 30:00I don’t even talk about garlic. Sorry, I just heard about Gohan. All right. I’m not saying every filler has to be canon. Okay?

Josué Cardona 30:06Just just because I mean, this is, this is the type of podcast where we can do this, there is something called anime canon.. Which means that the, there’s still like the the manga, Canon and filler. But then there’s, there are some episodes that are considered anime canon, which is from from this point forward, the anime has chosen to adopt a particular feature. And, and continue that. So and in a way I think part of that can also be like where filler connects to other filler from the past. So there’s, yeah, that’s not helpful to this conversation I just wanted to make sure

Lara Taylor 30:46you’re just clarifying,

Marc Cuiriz 30:47yeah, yeah

Josué Cardona 30:48I don’t want anybody to say Hey, you forgot to talk about and yes, there’s mixed canon episodes. But that’s, that’s another that’s another level. Talk about that later.

Marc Cuiriz 30:57That I feel like that’s more for otaku ryoho

Josué Cardona 31:00yeah, yep. Yep, yep. Okay, so you, Marc, you were saying? And And I’m curious, like, because I think we’re like diverging at one point where you were focused on how the world tries to tell you how to do things, right? Or there are expectations, and you can make different choices. And then I think that’s a part of it. But I didn’t think of that at all during the movie. I was thinking about it, in the sense of these are things that have to happen to you, like that happened to you and not that you do. Right. And again, I think it’s just like, where, where we are in our lives and the things, right, this is this is the beauty of it. But that’s what I was constantly thinking about. It was I’ll go into a rant now I’m gonna I’m gonna rant on noise. We need we need

Lara Taylor 31:55like a, we need like

Josué Cardona 31:57a timer?

Lara Taylor 31:58a sound deck for like, track for like, Josué rants.

Josué Cardona 32:03Just let me just give me Yeah, give me put a timer on. I went when no way home came out. I I’ve never loved and hated a movie so much in my life, because I enjoyed it thoroughly. And then it gets to the point where this topic comes up, right? It’s like, it’s like, all of these things. And it’s the conversation happened mostly outside of the movie, but it’s it’s the basis, you know, it inspires what happens in the movie. Like, he has to go through all of these, Peter Parker has to go through these horrible things. He has to lose everything. Because that’s what’s what Spider Man’s do they suffer? And that is it isn’t mentioned that way in the movie, per se in the movie. It’s more setup of like, there’s no other choice. Like I don’t know how else to fix this. You know, Dr. Strange is like, I don’t know how to fix this. This is the way you lose everything, but bothered me was the reaction from fans. Afterwards saying, finally. Finally, he gets to suffer. Tom Holland’s Peter Parker had it too easy. You had a too easy all this time. It wasn’t believable that he could be a hero, because he hadn’t had all this pain and loss. That infuriated me. And then the Marvel Gods answered my prayers and made across the spider verse. And the whole movie is based around this idea of an entire universe of spiders. I don’t not all people either. I was thinking about that. I was like spider man. Yeah, spider ham.

Lara Taylor 33:42Oh, there’s also spider dog. There’s like there’s a cat.

Josué Cardona 33:45not all people

Marc Cuiriz 33:46Yeah, there’s also peni. I mean, the spider itself is the radioactive ones She’s not actually bitten. She just controls the Mech.

Josué Cardona 33:54Yeah. So so all these spiders. And the idea that they’re just like, ah, you know, like, that’s just that’s just what happens like your father, uncle parent, somebody is a captain. Captain is gonna die. And then that’s like, that’s how you become Spider Man. And this is a character who that’s not his story. It’s not exactly that. And he refuses to just let it happen because he doesn’t have to let it happen. Right. And they’re almost forcing him to let it happen

Lara Taylor 34:29as a chance to fix it.

Josué Cardona 34:32I mean, I would I don’t know that. That’s true. I’m, I’m guessing knows.

Lara Taylor 34:37he knows all about this before the canon event happens. Yeah, most of the other I can’t say all because there are probably 1000s. But yeah, the examples they gave us. Everybody else didn’t know that their quote unquote captain had to die until after it happened.

Josué Cardona 34:56Yeah, yes. Yeah. So he

Lara Taylor 34:58is the one who has a chance to change it. I know there’s something with like, why can’t I remember? I can’t remember your name, Miguel, that he changed the canon event and the world died. Right? And so there’s that fear that that that will that you do that that’s gonna that’s gonna happen again and fixing timelines and universes and all of that. But other than that situation, nobody has really known about these things right before it happens as far as we know, right?

Josué Cardona 35:35Yeah, yeah

Lara Taylor 35:36so but now the kid that wasn’t supposed to be Spider Man is gonna screw it all up, you know?

Josué Cardona 35:44yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 35:45but he has this option, which is so cool to watch play out. Because none of us know what is gonna happen before it happens.

Josué Cardona 35:57Yeah, I think I think they’re still right. You’re right. Miguel knew before. GWEN knows now.

Lara Taylor 36:04Yeah.

Josué Cardona 36:05Before, and but she didn’t do anything necessarily to make it change. It changed though. Right? And so

Lara Taylor 36:13that’s true yeah

Josué Cardona 36:14but just like, but Miguel knows. Like, they have the ability to know and I’m just gonna get some somebody right. But some of them because like, there’s just like this, this feeling and some of those conversations. It’s like, Hey, man, you gotta let it happen. You know, like, sorry, you know, I mean, they knew about the the spider man from India. Right the like, that was gonna happen and

Lara Taylor 36:37his design he is wonderful character I love him so much.

Josué Cardona 36:41Yeah. 100%. Yeah. There’s so infuriating to me this idea. Right? But I love that the protagonist of the movie, right? The point in this movie is that he is fighting against that. But he’s like, firstly, they didn’t even mention the fact that like, he’s already a pretty decent Spider Man, trained by multiple Peter Parker’s. And he wasn’t really trained by the first one who died. But but Right. Like he’s got. He’s been trained, he’s got a whole bunch of stuff, right. And he’s and the fact that in the movie, they make the point that he is not. And he realizes that he is not a hero. Because of what he suffered. He’s a hero because of the love and teachings of his parents and like, their support, like they, they raised him in a way where he’s like, he, his sense of right and wrong, is what helps him be the spider man that he is, right. And so again, this feels like a big F U to no way home. And that idea that, like, you gotta you gotta just take everything away from or you got to, you got to let this person die otherwise, and the idea that not only, like, it messes up everything, like we all have to have this in common. Which is, which is a big, like, it’s such an interesting idea, right? Look, if you want to be one of us, you have to do this, right? It’s like an initiation of some sort. It’s like, if you don’t, if you didn’t have that experience, you’re not really one of us, and it kind of ruins our vibe. Although in the movie, it’s like the vibe is the, the the fabric of reality, or whatever it is that keeps them all connected. So yeah, so I I love the fact that this movie completely goes against that, those, those conversations around like both, you know, you can’t really be Spider Man if you don’t have all of this other stuff. And Miles does this at multiple levels, right? He’s black, he’s Hispanic, he lives in Queens. He’s and then all these other things, right? Like there’s many different things about miles that are different from Peter Parker. And he doesn’t have to also from just a storytelling perspective, like how boring would it be? If the if Peter Parker’s replacement, like just has all the same things? He has an uncle named Ben who dies and he you know, etc, etc. You have all the same events happening. I think I think I appreciate this very much. I Like that message. All right, back to you, Marc.

Marc Cuiriz 39:37Yeah, I I remember when we talked about no way home and I think I was one of those people that was like, you know, this is one of the things that I viewed as like a defining trait of Spider Man which is eternal suffering. But try but with this movie, it. I don’t think I related to a character more than I did relating to two miles like that,

Josué Cardona 40:11to miguel? you said?

Marc Cuiriz 40:14surprisingly, no. To miles of, of that idea of like, he’s like, Nah, you know what I’m gonna do my own thing, like, everyone’s telling me how my story is supposed to go. And they explain that, you know, this isn’t even supposed to be his story. And yet here it is, you know, he’s Spider Man, whether or not he was supposed to be Spider Man. At this point, it doesn’t matter. He is Spider Man. And, you know, he he’s trying so hard to say no, like, just because that happened to every single other Spider Man, that does not mean that it has to happen to him as well. And him taking that stand and saying no, this is this is my story, I’m going to be the one does to say how it’s supposed to go. I was like, damn. This, this right here is something that I feel like teenage Marc needed back in the day. Because I remember, you know, way back then, when I was a young teenager, of struggling with that, that notion of my own identity. And I often let it sort of be shaped and molded by the people in the environment around me, I lived for other people’s expectations of how they feel like I was supposed to be. And I was like, Well, this is how it’s supposed to be this is these are the rules that were set. This is how it’s supposed to go. I’m supposed to go through this. I’m supposed to deal with this or whatever. And I think seeing this now that I’ve gone through my own journey, my own healing all that stuff, and say seeing this happen as a person that’s like, who already feels like they don’t belong, and then taking that stand and saying, maybe I don’t. And that’s okay. Because I’m going to be the one to tell my own story. This is my life. And so I’m going to dictate it. And it’s okay that if I don’t, if I’m not part of the bigger group, that’s fine. Because that’s not what’s important to him, what’s important is him taking a stand and doing what he feels is right. And in this case, for him, it’s, he’s gonna want to save his dad. And he’s not gonna let other people say, no, he’s got to die. And then he’ll just like, alright, you right, and then he just sits back and watches that happen, like, you know, he’s not going to do that. He feels like he’s embodied what Spider Man is supposed to be, which is if you can do something, if you can save a person, but you need to make sure that you can do everything you can to save them or to help them. And that’s what he’s gonna want to do. He wants to be the embodiment of the spider men that he trained with, that he looked up to growing up, all that sort of stuff. Even if it means he’s got to go against what they’ve dictated, as are the rules or the canon events that need to happen.

Josué Cardona 43:41Before recording, we were talking about Rational Emotive behavior therapy, because, you know, why wouldn’t we? And Albert Ellis, he there were a few things that he said that I think about all the time, they sold T shirts with this stuff he used to say this and conferences, he would say don’t ‘should’ yourself and stop ‘must’turbating. So it takes nothing must be a particular way should will also gets you in trouble. Right? That belief that it has to be a particular way is limiting and can be and can be unhealthy at times because then we don’t accept things that have happened. Right. There’s a there’s there’s that the classic interview with the Albert Ellis says with a with a patient, that the one that makes everybody think he’s an asshole, right,

Lara Taylor 44:41the Gloria videos yeah,

Josué Cardona 44:45she’s like, Oh, my sister died. She shouldn’t have died. He’s like, but she did. You know, like, like, thinking that there was that it had to be a particular way and now it’s not is why you’re suffering right now because you believe You that it has to be one particular way. Right? Like, really? It’s Miguel that we’re seeing in the movie, who’s like

Lara Taylor 45:07it has to be this way

Josué Cardona 45:08the way it has to be it must be this way. And he’s convinced other people. And I think I’m, I’m coming back around to you to your point. Now Lara, right. Like, because really how many people would actually be like? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. I guess my dad’s dying of like, Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I’ll just be over here. You know, like, they all find out kind of after the fact and just accept the fact that like, oh, yeah, without that, I wouldn’t be who I am. I guess that’s the way it goes. And, and miles does seem to be the first one that they’re, like, actively trying to keep away from the knowledge of all of this, right. Gwen’s like, it’s really, you know, like, small, exclusive club. He just shows up. He’s like, what? He’s actually the only one that’s not invited.

Lara Taylor 45:59Yeah, yeah. That whole thing too, with, like, I look back on my life, and it helps me to look back on my life. Yes, my mom dying did change my life and did like, you know, put this trajectory, I don’t have the ability to go back and change things. And But moving forward, I can make my choices and do things in a way. Like I can’t predict the future, but I can do my my actions, I can fight to change things and fight to change how I think about things and how I work toward my goals. And I talk with clients about that all the time. The idea that like, well, worrying and suffering about the past is one thing, right. And this is not to discount people’s, like traumas and things like that. But it’s like, unless we can do something about it, right now, to end this mostly when someone has done something or not done something. Unless we’re going to do something now to kind of fix things, all we can do is learn from that and move forward. So like we we don’t have the power to go back in time and fix the things like we would in many superhero movies, or sci fi movies. But this is this is the past for the future you that you can change things now to go ahead and make the future better. So yeah,

Josué Cardona 47:25this is where I think it, it’s helpful to bring up something like The Flash movie that just came out other other time travel movies that play with the idea of if you go back and change one thing, like one moment, that can have a rippling effect moving forward. Like, sure, if this person hadn’t died, if this hadn’t this thing hadn’t happened, you, you might be a very different person, because many different things would have happened. To your point like you can’t go back into that. So I think that even the exercise of going back and saying, like, oh, what would it? How would it be different? Like what would happen? I don’t think that that’s necessarily a healthy exercise. Because why you? First of all, it’s all bullshit because you had, you’d have no idea. You would just be thinking, you’d either be catastrophizing or idealizing. Right? You’d be like, oh, you know, everything would be better.

Lara Taylor 48:23I only like to go back with clients and look at what has happened when it’s like, an argument with a partner, like, what could you have done differently? Because you can implement that in the future, but likely the death of a parent? No, I’m not gonna look back and see what is different I have in the past, but now it’s like, I’m not gonna look back and see what would be different because this is the person I am now. Now, would I if I had the ability to go back in time, would I go back and change things? I don’t know. Because I wouldn’t want my future. I like my my life right now. I don’t know if I would change the future. But if my mom were alive today, you bet I would fight my fight tooth and nail to keep her around. So that’s the kind of thing and that’s my, my dad has health issues. I’m fighting tooth and nail to keep him around. You know, it’s it’s that thing, but like, you can change the future, but you definitely can’t change the past. So unless it’s something you need to apologize for, but you can’t change what you did.

Josué Cardona 49:20There’s a lot there cannot go into the past. This is true. Exploring like how things will be different. It’s a better reframe, like you said to say, what can we learn from that to then when the opportunity comes up again? What can we do differently? You can’t use that for everything, right? It’s not like No, it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t be our our mother’s deaths. It would be how we reacted to it or what we did afterwards, right? And then the idea of changing this idea that you can change the future right? The

Lara Taylor 50:01cuz you don’t know what the future is, we don’t know what it is

Josué Cardona 50:03right, I’m not disagreeing with you, I want to I want to go like a little deeper and more specific. And just also acknowledge that like, just a lot of things that you cannot change.

Lara Taylor 50:12Right

Josué Cardona 50:13Right, we can change how we react to things, we can change how we can, we can’t control what other people do.

Lara Taylor 50:19Like, we can change ourselves and how we like if I sat by and said nothing, when someone I care about is doing something dangerous for them to themselves, I would feel horrible. So now I say something, right? That kind of thing. That comes from my own trauma with my mom’s past, but like, sitting back and not saying anything is not doing anything, I have the option, I can’t force them to take care of themselves. But I can do my part to make it known. so that I can feel good about what I have done, and that I tried my best. You know, that’s a thing that’s possible, but we don’t know what’s going to happen. I mean, there’s certain situations where that works. Literally, I say my dad has health issues, he could walk outside the door and get hit by a car, I can’t change that. But there are things that we can do. Like, I can try my best to get out of unhealthy thinking patterns. Anybody can do that. I can try my best to eat better. I can try my best to exercise a little bit more. You know, during my week, those are things we can do. That does impact the future. I just talked to somebody to a lot of people today about it’s okay to half ass something we can half ass something something is better than nothing. And I think in this situation in the movie, miles isn’t gonna half ass it but he’s doing something to try his future. Yeah. Better rather than sitting back and letting it happen. Yeah. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 50:24When my mom was was sick, there was a time when it was really, really hard for me to not be able to help her. I felt helpless. And then I was just very angry about that. And then once I remember it, like, oh, yeah, I can’t force her to do anything that she doesn’t want to do.

Lara Taylor 52:23Yep.

Josué Cardona 52:24Um, then it switched from like,

Lara Taylor 52:27You did your best, right?

Josué Cardona 52:28Well, no, I completely like, I felt stupid for even trying so hard. Right? I was like, oh,

Lara Taylor 52:35knowing your mom knowing your mom,

Josué Cardona 52:36just knowing like people in general, right? It’s like, well, I can’t force anybody to do anything that they don’t want to do, or that they can’t like, you know, it’s it. I think it’s unfair to say to some about someone who is ill, whether physically or mentally, that they that it’s all willpower, and it’s all strength? Oh, you know, right. Like, it’s, they may not be able to do it. Right. So then my first frustration is mine, that I can’t move this immovable object. And, but then I changed it from I, I’m not going to regret having tried to help her, I’m going to regret not having spent more time with her.

Lara Taylor 53:12Correct.

Josué Cardona 53:13And so and so that’s what I focused on. Right, which is the only thing that I could really control is the, you know, making that effort and making making it possible to spend time with her as much as possible. That’s something I can control. I can try to make her more comfortable. That, you know, that stuff like that, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t cure her. And I couldn’t make her force her to do anything that in my mind would have been helpful for.

Lara Taylor 53:44Right.

Josué Cardona 53:45So yeah. And I think I think with me,

Lara Taylor 53:49the future because the alternate Josué would have kept fighting and been more frustrated and not had that quality time. Right.

Josué Cardona 54:02I deleted that variant in the entirety.

Lara Taylor 54:05Exactly.

Josué Cardona 54:06Yeah,

Lara Taylor 54:07exactly. Retconned out

Josué Cardona 54:11Yeah. But it’s funny

Lara Taylor 54:12it’s true because this is the Canon.

Josué Cardona 54:14I have two sisters. And they we all handle this extremely differently.

Lara Taylor 54:19As as happens.

Josué Cardona 54:20Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting to see how they reflect now on the choices that they made. And the outcome and how we’re all in very different spots. Because of it. Yeah. Yeah. In a way it’s funny. I I got to the so for miles, his father’s death is not inevitable. But I think that in in miles is mind, miles, in Miguel’s mind it should be inevitable, right? Like it should, it should happen, but and so in a way, like, kind of there are times when you have to accept that something is inevitable, because otherwise you’re going to suffer through it. I don’t expect beyond the spider verse to have miles just step back and accept it. I expect him to fight and win and save his father. Otherwise gonna be pissed if the movie ends if the if the story of the two movies ends up being it’s what’s gonna happen it’s gonna happen like you get Did you just can’t stop certain things. I really doubt that that’s it. But

Lara Taylor 55:44it’ll be interesting to see what they do with it. Because video game miles doesn’t just dad does not there.

Josué Cardona 55:52That’s a different Yeah, that’s a different it’s a different

Lara Taylor 55:54it’s a different miles.

Josué Cardona 55:55Yeah. Peter didn’t even know his parents. Like they died when he was super, super small. And almost all versions. But like what we’re talking about, right? It’s like, I got to the point where I was like, Oh, I’m like, I had to accept that my mom was gonna die. Again, very different circumstances.

Lara Taylor 56:17Right. This is like you had, he has the chance to actually do something.

Josué Cardona 56:22Yeah, I guess that’s it, right.

Lara Taylor 56:24It’s not a medical thing. It is an injury that will happen. Right.

Josué Cardona 56:29But it’s interesting, because I think I think my mom’s death was very preventable. At multiple stages. She didn’t have cancer, like she gets. Yeah, it was. It was something that was extremely treatable. And the other day, I was talking to my sister and I had one of those not very healthy thoughts that, like, I had everything ready for my mom to come to Chicago at a good hospital. Like, we were just ready for it. And my mom was like, Yeah, I don’t know. Give me a give me a couple of months to think about it. And like, let me see. And the doctor that I was speaking to here, she was like, she doesn’t have a couple months to think about this. Like, the longer she waits, the harder it’s going to be. And I had to, again, like take a step back, kind of. Again, it’s not it’s not the same, right. But it’s because Miles’s dad doesn’t know that he’s going to die.

Lara Taylor 57:28his dad has no opportunity to do anything about this. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 57:32well he would if he knew, right, but he doesn’t know.

Lara Taylor 57:34Right, but he doesn’t.

Josué Cardona 57:35Yeah, my mom knew that she was, you know, of what she what she could do to change. But it’s still that that idea that I wasn’t until I accepted. What at some point became inevitable that I was able to be that I was able to enjoy the time with my mom that we had left even. Yeah, because before then I was just angry at the world. And her and myself and Marc, everybody.

Lara Taylor 58:07Well, if Miles is dead ends up dying in the next movie. miles better get a chance to like, tell him about being Spider Man. You have that truth with him? No, you know, fix the disconnect between the two of them. Otherwise, the story is gonna be very fucking sad.

Josué Cardona 58:28Yeah, seriously.

Marc Cuiriz 58:31Why can’t we just have a happy Spider Man story?

Josué Cardona 58:36Because eternal suffering

Marc Cuiriz 58:38like Peter,

Lara Taylor 58:39Peter B. Peter B. Parker is married to Mary Jane and has baby okay,

Marc Cuiriz 58:44exactly. Why can’t we have that? Like, can we just have more of that? Instead, we have spectacular spider man saying no, that’s the way it’s gotta be.

Josué Cardona 58:55Spectacular Spider Man thing. It’s gonna be

Marc Cuiriz 58:59we after like, they showed the little bits, like the little clips of everything like, spectacular Spider Man is there saying like, yeah, miles like this is kind of what has to happen.

Josué Cardona 59:09Which one’s spectacular Spider Man?

Marc Cuiriz 59:12I mean, it’s kind of hard for me to describe it without having the screen in front of me to show you but it was it wasn’t. You know about spectacular Spider Man the show?

Josué Cardona 59:24No, no, no, no, gotcha. I mean, I mean, yes. But I’ve, yeah, that character in particular was in the movie.

Marc Cuiriz 59:31Yes. He was one of the few that had like, he had like a couple of lines in it. And it was like the original actor, voice actor and everything, which is what a lot of people were really happy about because a lot of people viewed spectacular Spider Man as like one of the better Spider Man TV shows that ended up getting canceled. And then it was replaced with ultimate Spider Man.

Josué Cardona 59:57What was when when Doc Ock comes with Spider Man. What is he called?

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:02That’s superior spider-man

Josué Cardona 1:00:03superior Spider Man. That’s the one. Okay. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. That’s where I got. Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:08And they only call them the spectacular spider and because that was the name of the show. Was that spectacular?

Josué Cardona 1:00:14Okay, okay. Yep, that makes sense. So, got it. Yeah, even the live action ones were here. So it was Yeah. Everybody’s everybody’s in there.

Lara Taylor 1:00:24Everybody’s here.

Josué Cardona 1:00:26Everybody is here.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:28And I did like how Miguel references Tom Holland and Dr. Strange what that whole thing. But he referenced it as from Earth nine nine nine nine nine. But then in far from home Mysterio says that there Earth 616 And he came from Earth like 832 or something like that.

Josué Cardona 1:00:52But that was all a lie.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:54Which is why it’s like, okay, it’s cool, because I remember when I heard that, I was like, hold on, that’s not adding up. Yeah, that’s not that’s not that was the giveaway that. Yeah, I was like, huh, this is this a little sauce. But yeah, now it’s like no its 999999? Whatever.

Josué Cardona 1:01:09So prize, just a special effects. Artist, you

Lara Taylor 1:01:14Yep.

Josué Cardona 1:01:16Marc, was there anything else about this that like that we haven’t covered?

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:20i We honestly talked about a lot more than what I had originally wanted to talk about. I think like we we had a really good discussion about this. And it’s, it is definitely one that has, like, there’s a lot of thought there. There’s there’s a whole lot of other stuff there too. That we’ve all touched on a little bit. But I feel like this is overall was like the second big theme that I pulled from the movie.

Josué Cardona 1:01:48Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:48aside from that, that feeling of belonging and you know, establishing your own identity and stuff like that.

Josué Cardona 1:01:55So before we go, I want to point out that we often joke that the three of us are the same person for a number of reasons. The irony of that is that we are very, very different people with very, very different lives and pasts. But do we have any Canon event that like unites our stories altogether? I’m curious.

Lara Taylor 1:02:24We’re in three different phases of being therapists. I’m just pointing that out.

Josué Cardona 1:02:29Yes. Yes, we are. Again, it’s like a where our timelines are not chronologically in sync, for example, Lara, you’re much older and you’re gonna be 40 this year?

Lara Taylor 1:02:43Oh. oh oh Josué

Josué Cardona 1:02:4420’s i’m still in my 30’s

Lara Taylor 1:02:45I’m a month older!

Josué Cardona 1:02:49decades between us,

Lara Taylor 1:02:51but that’s okay. Because link told us we’re all turning 40 this year.

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:55I feel it.

Josué Cardona 1:02:57Yeah. Yeah. feel it in my knees. So is there. Is there anything that we all have?

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:03Josué didn’t you say that your dad was the one who got you into gaming? Yeah, that was my dad.

Lara Taylor 1:03:10My mom was the one who got me into gaming

Josué Cardona 1:03:12I mean, it was both of them. Yeah. Yeah. They were both, I guess. Is that it? That’s our that’s our,

Lara Taylor 1:03:19this could take a long time. to compare our lifetime lines.

Josué Cardona 1:03:24They’re not there you go. Our parents. Our parents introduced us into video games when we were little. Then we all became therapists,

Lara Taylor 1:03:30here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. Canon events don’t have to involve the same person. Right can be Yeah, this is the captain, right?

Josué Cardona 1:03:39Yep. Yep. Yep. We are definitely. Yeah, all variants can be very different. I think. I think we’re all the same people. We’re definitely variants. Okay, that was it. Your parents introduce you into video games when? Or your therapist, welcome to the GT verse. We’re all connected by the thread. Together.

Lara Taylor 1:04:09I’m sure down the line, we’ll see something else too.

Josué Cardona 1:04:13There’s a few. There’s a few I can think of. Yeah, I’m not gonna bother. Thank you so much for joining us. Marc, Take us and take us home.

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:23Oh, my goodness. Thank everybody so much for joining us in this wonderful conversation into across the spider verse. Very, very lovely conversation to be had. If you guys would like to join down the conversation. The links to all of our spaces are in the show notes. Remember to geek out and do good. And we’ll be back next week.

Josué Cardona 1:04:51byeyayayaya is that how Link does it?

Lara Taylor 1:04:58mm BYE

Josué Cardona 1:05:00Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture to learn more about our mission and become a supporter visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023)
• Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018)
• Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021)
• Gwen Stacy
• Miles Morales
• Star Wars series
• Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)
• DC Extended Universe (DCEU)
• Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)
• Peni Parker
• Miguel O’Hara
• The Flash (2023)

Conversation Topics:

* Narrative Therapy* Cognitive Processing Therapy / Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)* Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT)* Change* Consequences* Cultural representation* Death* Difficult emotions* Family* Fear* Feeling alone* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Honesty/Lies* LGBT Issues* Moral dilemma* Standing up for oneself* Sacrifice for others

Relatable Experience:

* Anticipation* Acceptance* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Death* Fear/Anxiety* Individuation* Loss (other than death)* New Life Event (New Rules)* Suffering* Separation* Trauma

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Link Keller 0:11Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network, where we believe that the best way to understand ourselves and each other is through the media we care about. I am one of your co hosts, link, and I’m joined by Lara.

Lara Taylor 0:29Hey,

Link Keller 0:30and Josué.

Josué Cardona 0:32Hello.

Link Keller 0:33Hi, guys.

Josué Cardona 0:35Hi, Link.

Link Keller 0:36I’m so excited to talk about this topic today. I recently watched Netflix’s new season of the ultimatum, colon queer love. It is a reality TV show about relationships. The premise is a couple comes in where one couple, one member of the couple has given a marriage ultimatum to the other proposed to me or I’m leaving. And they go on this show. And they date other couples and pretend to be married for a couple of weeks and then reunite with their original partner who they gave the ultimatum to have a pretend marriage with them for a couple of weeks. And then at the end, they decide if they’re actually going to get married to each other, or breakup, or potentially date one of the other people that they dated. It is as I would academically refer to it as a hot dumpster fire. And I love it. And it was I watched the first season of the ultimatum which was straight couples, but this season is about sapphic couples, so women and non binary people. truly a joy. All of the drama, you’re looking for

Lara Taylor 2:06the whole first episode, I was screaming like who thinks this is a good idea to solve your fucking problems? who??

Link Keller 2:13It is truly antithetical to building a healthy relationship to put yourself into a eight to 10 week filming production, that you’re still having to live your regular life. But also, you’re going on extravagant dates and drinking a lot and trying to maybe fall in love or figure out what you’re missing from your relationship and all this introspective work and

Lara Taylor 2:44and they can’t talk to anybody about what happened on the show for at least a year.

Link Keller 2:49Yes, the I think that is an important thing to touch on right at the beginning, this show was filmed in the beginning of 2021. And it didn’t come out until two months ago. So there is a fair gap there. They did also record a reunion episode in January of this year. So like two years out from when they did it. They did the reunion episode and then several, six months out from that is when the episode started coming out. So I imagine that was quite the experience for the people who actually were on the show. But yeah, I wanted to talk about reality TV sort of in general. Focusing more on like the romance, love and relationship reality TVs shows not so much the like Survivor ones but or other competition ones but also more specifically on this particular show. One because there is not a lot of queer rep in reality TV. I did watch another show on I think I watched it on Hulu, and it was called Love trip colon Paris. And that one was four American women who were straight bi pansexual and lesbian. And they went to France and moved into a beautiful apartment building and then all these hot French singles moved in and they dated each other. truly wild. The height of that one was one woman got another woman’s name tattooed on her knuckles, and I truly thought I would never recover from that. But then I watched the queer ultimatum reunion episode and I was like no, actually, this is the craziest thing I have ever seen. So yeah, what, let’s start with like, what are your guys’s familiarity with watching like relations Ship reality TV. Have you watched other shows before? Is this absolutely not your bag? Like, where are you guys coming from?

Lara Taylor 5:07I love reality TV, or I used to watch a lot of it. Nina doesn’t like it. So I don’t watch a lot of it unless she’s not around to watch it. Because it stresses her out. I love it. I’m focusing on other people’s problems, not my own. At least it’s not that bad, like. But I was hooked on the real world, which it’s even though that one is like people living together, it’s all about relationships and who’s hooking up with who and who people are hooking up with outside the house and bring into the house. I watched a lot of the real world back in the day. And mostly a lot of MTV like and VH1 one reality shows like, shot at love with tila tequila.

Link Keller 5:57Just gonna say I think that was like one of my first ones that I ever watched I was truly sets the scene.

Lara Taylor 6:04I was obsessed with Danny Campbell, I was obsessed. I have met her twice at different clubs, that she came to do appearances that have a curve magazine, which is a lesbian own magazine, signed by her in it. I have a T shirt. This is Team Danny on it. Still, it’s a relic of the early 2000s. And there was a joke that like with my friends that you know, she was a firefighter in Florida. Still is a firefighter in Florida. We were like let’s find out which firehouse she’s at. And I will just leave a trail of fires from there to California, so that she would meet me. Yeah, so obsessed with reality TV shows. And that was the first time I had someone like me on a reality show. I mean, there were other queer people on the real world. But like, this was like, the focus of the show. Was Was her so and then of course, I watched this. And I am obsessed now with the ultimatum queer love. Yeah, I binged. Like, I rewatched a few episodes, because I had to I miss parts of it, but I binge, like six episodes Monday night, so yeah. I love it. It’s great.

Link Keller 7:33What about you Josué?

Josué Cardona 7:36I also watched, like the MTV stuff, right? And like survivor and real world and road rules. He was like, Oh, what’s this? After that I’ve never really watched anything. And I don’t know when this happened. But I also don’t watch sports anymore. Because I don’t like watching people live their lives. Like for me, sports isn’t. For me. Sports is like, Oh, this principle of just doing their job. Plus, you’re getting paid so much money. I mean, whether they’re paying getting paid a lot or not. I’m like, I’m just watching somebody do their job. I love a good what is it? Like slam dunk competition. I like highlight reels. I like admiring superhuman acts of physical activity, but reality TV is very much more like just people living their lives. And I know how produced it is. I know how unrealistic it can be because of how think things are set up. Like, like the setup for the ultimatum is so So absurd, it’s um, I was like you, Lara When I was watching the first time I was like,

Link Keller 8:52in what way? Does this make sense? What Wait, what? To this?

Lara Taylor 8:57I can get giving someone an ultimatum. Like there are plenty people on the show in their 30s that want to have kids. Like I get it you it’s the whole thing shit or get off the pot like okay, that makes sense. But like this experience what what is it gonna do?

Josué Cardona 9:13I even understand that there was like a group of people in a room who you know, with a random number generator came up with an idea for a show or thought that it was a good idea. But the fact that people sign up for it right like I have so many questions like it’s

Link Keller 9:28a spin off of Netflix’s Love is blind. I don’t know if that

Josué Cardona 9:32I never watched it

Link Keller 9:33clarifies anything to you. But this is this is technically a third ring out from there. So this is this is like people really responded well to that reality TV. What if we put a little twist on it and make it even wilder the people are going to watch in there right? I am going to watch it because I want to see what What madness will happen in front of me.

Josué Cardona 9:59Again, I think I don’t know how much they get paid. I don’t know, why anyone,

Link Keller 10:04probably, not enough.

Josué Cardona 10:06At the beginning, I was like, There’s no way that any of these couples will end up, together

Link Keller 10:10if they don’t get paid and also get like 10 years of therapy covered, it’s not enough.

Josué Cardona 10:17Well, I mean, one of the reasons why I don’t like it is because the way that those that a reality TV show is exciting is if there’s drama. And if you have a villain, and you have, you know, all these things, and so, someone may not be that bad. But if you only show them being a particular way, which is easy to do, because you’re editing 95% of the footage that you got, and you’re you’re being very selective. I don’t like that. I don’t like yeah, I don’t like that. Just like, just like, when you do a documentary, like you, you’re biased. And you tell the story that you want to tell here. Like, I know, what’s the angle, so I can’t, I don’t feel comfortable watching them. I would never agree to be on a on a reality TV show. And the idea of solving it just again, like I’ve, I’ve I’ve read of people who are like, oh, let’s pretend to be in a couple. So we can go on this, like, on the couple’s version of road rules, or some other show or something like that, like I get, I get that type of stuff. But like the fact that anybody agreed to this show, that’s what I think like the 10 people who were there. And how many couples were disappointed that they didn’t get selected? I, yeah, we can talk about like, what happened in the conclusions and all that. But I. So what I did was right, I only watched the first episodes, I could see the premise. And then at that point, I mean, you know, I watch anything for GT. But I was I was invested enough where I was like, I just want to know what happens. I want to see the outcome. I don’t want to see the I can’t I can’t even that first episode was uncomfortable.

Lara Taylor 11:54Yeah, it was.

Link Keller 11:55To be fair, you watching the first under an hour episode, and just over an hour last episode, like two hours is statistically insignificant compared to the 10 episodes that are, you know, around or under an hour each and the flight 40,000 hours of filmed content they had. So it’s like, it’s very manufactured like that is absolutely, like very important to remember that. These are real people, and you are seeing a very manufactured piece of them. But also, I’m there for the drama, I want the drama. That’s why I’m watching. And so it’s like, I’ve definitely had some like internal like, moral quandary of watching like any reality TV because I didn’t watch it when I was younger, because I didn’t have cable or there wasn’t a choice. I just didn’t have it. And then I watched that Tila Tequila, tequila one. And the guy from poison. He did one.

Lara Taylor 13:11He did want to add

Link Keller 13:11Flavor Flav did they were like on I didn’t watch the

Lara Taylor 13:16amazing. It was

Link Keller 13:18probably like 2006 2007 No, that was probably 2008. But like, I watched a little bit then and then it’s like, didn’t really watch any reality TV for a long time. And then more recently, I got back into it. Watching stuff on Netflix, mostly because I have a group chat with a couple other friends who also watch it. And so it’s just like a social thing for us all to be like, Oh my God, did you watch that episode? Did you see what they said? What a bitch? How dare they lie out the sides of their mouths like that? Like, oh my god, can you believe the host said that to their faces is like that kind of engagement is very enjoyable. But yeah, it doesn’t. It doesn’t feel great to watch some of these reality shows and reconcile the fact that like these are real, three dimensional people who have lives, and families and friends and social groups and work. And, you know, months or years later this content is being pushed to as many people as possible. And it’s just like that has got to be really harrowing to deal with. Which again, like you said Josué like I would never put myself in that position. But these people are signing up for people are different from me. And they have different values and different interests. And from their perspective, this was a valid life choice for them to make and so it’s like, Hmm, especially around the relationship stuff because that feels like it’s closer It’s closer to the heart than like doing a silly little jungle gym challenge on you know how petition reality show.

Josué Cardona 15:03We can cut this out of the episode because it’s not really relevant. But I’m so curious about if they issued the ultimatums before or after they were they were, like, getting on the show, you know, like the prerequisite. It’s like, well, I already issued an ultimatum. Oh, look, there’s a casting call for a reality show. And I just did that. So why don’t we go? Or was the casting call like, Hey, are you in a relationship and like you feel, you know, like, you know, you want to move forward, but it’s not going forward. Bla, bla, you come in, and they’re like, Okay, if you want to go on the show, you have to issue the ultimatum you have to

Lara Taylor 15:37is the premise of the show. And they already had a season of it. So

Josué Cardona 15:41I put these couples Yeah,

Link Keller 15:44finding five couples that fit that criteria would not be that difficult, within a place like say, L.A. But I do suspect that some of some of the couples were like, I’ve given this ultimatum three or four times and I just haven’t actually pulled the trigger.

Josué Cardona 16:05makes sense

Link Keller 16:05this feels like the absolute final push here. And then there are definitely other couples are like, do you want to get married? I don’t know. Well, do you want to go on this show? Like that? Could be a fun experience for us is like, Yeah, okay. Like, Oh, okay. I think it probably runs the gamut there. There’s also probably instances in which people casting directors are like, Hey, I met you at that. Party that one time and I just think that you have the face and personality for TV. Do you have a partner you don’t I’ll put you on the show. That’s getting a partner. You do have I’m sorry, I don’t put you on the show. That’s about getting your partner to marry you like

Josué Cardona 16:51this reality TV to have recruiters like is that is that a job?

Lara Taylor 16:55Yeah

Link Keller 16:56absolutely, 100%

Lara Taylor 16:58I used to watch a youtube channel back in the beginning days of like vloggers and shit ha AJ Stacey who is asked AJ anything on pretty much everything now has a podcast and for a while she applied to like every reality show she could except I don’t think there were that many dating ones she was on RuPaul’s Drag Race, Drag U once and yeah, it was yeah, just apply apply apply and see what sticks that’s what people do

Link Keller 17:38yeah, yeah

Josué Cardona 17:42I’m just thinking of the recruiter a piece right it’s like like sure if you want if you’re looking for talent you know for for NCAA you go to high school games, you know that you hear people? Like where do you go for the reality TV stuff like the

Link Keller 17:54bars

Lara Taylor 17:55the queer bar

Josué Cardona 18:00Yeah, well thank you for answering those questions for me

Lara Taylor 18:04this one you go hang out in a couple’s therapists office.

Josué Cardona 18:09Lara as a as a as a marriage and family therapist. Would you ever recommend this as an intervention?

Lara Taylor 18:16absolutely not

Link Keller 18:18asterix: if you are trying to end a relationship

Lara Taylor 18:24Yeah, I mean, we’re gonna talk about all of the things but spoiling the end of the show like there is at the very end of it. Only one couple survive once I got

Link Keller 18:36so so so there are five couples Yeah, yeah. Three of them broke up. One I just want

Josué Cardona 18:43to say yeah, I just want to acknowledge right that like the person right there because without saying which couples right like they were like you said like there’s three that didn’t make it to at the end of the show that I like it but then at the very end area right that moment so the show like camera fades to black and then they let you know that one of the couples is no longer together whoever did that is a genius is a genius like that was that was like

Link Keller 19:08just just title card black screen white text is just like this couple broke up the marriage is off

Lara Taylor 19:17and then I immediately started googling stuff about all of these people.

Link Keller 19:21And the one couple that is together still and that is current to like today. They are engaged but are not married.

Lara Taylor 19:30and that couple has a lot of complicated reasons. Why they might not be married yet

Link Keller 19:37absolutely. 100% Yeah, yeah, so not a good Yeah. Honestly, my watching several seasons of love is blind at this point. And it’s hosted by Nick and Vanessa Lachey, famously married to each other. And they do you know, Have all of the promos, like we’re gonna find out through this social experiment? If love is truly blind, and I’m like, based on the data that you have set before me, the answer is a resounding no.

Josué Cardona 20:16What is the promise of those blind, I’ve never watched

Link Keller 20:18it, they take a bunch of singles. And they put all of the girls on one side of the building and all the boys on the other side of the building, and in the middle of the building are these little like soundproof booths that they go into, and they have blind dates, in that they literally cannot see each other, and they all date each other. And then at the end of like, seven to 10 days, they propose to one another without seeing each other is like, will you marry me? And then they get to meet in person, and then they get to have a pretend honeymoon. And then they get to have a pretend live together and meet each other’s families. And then at the end, it’s like they have a they have a wedding, and they go up on the altar, and then they tell each other like, Yes, I do or no, I’m out. Spoiler alert, most of them don’t. It’s wild. But yes, it is. It is really cool to see like when people are not allowed to make snap judgments about each other’s aesthetics and physicality, that they are much more open to having conversations and talking about things and being more vulnerable with each other, which is really cool to see. But it is so ironic to me that even in this extremely explicit like you are dating to try and find somebody to marry, they still will avoid conversations that are so vital to have before you get married. And it is so funny to me to be like we fell in love without seeing each other. It’s like, well, you’ve both said that you want kids. What happens when there’s like a fetal abnormality and you need an abortion. How do you feel about that? Have you ever talked about that? And you’re like, No, no, nobody talks about abortion. It’s like, I think you need to, I think you need to have that conversation before you get married. Shifting back to ultimatum that was one of my complaints is that this was about, you know, queer women, queer people, sapphics, talking about wanting to be married. And they talked about, you know, wanting to have that sign of commitment. That was like the big thing that all of them were talking, I was like, I want to be I want to feel chosen. And that whole thing, none of them. And this was shocking to me. None of them mentioned that there are extremely valuable legal benefits to being married. I don’t it’s a much bigger conversation about how I feel about that. But the fact is, is you’re talking about sapphic couples, lesbian couples, there are benefits to being married

Lara Taylor 23:08and 10 years ago, could not get

Link Keller 23:10Yes. And one of the major pushes to allow gay marriage is that people were not able to see their loved ones when they were in the hospital dying, because they didn’t have the legal rights to do so. And it’s like, marriage gives you that legal rights. And it’s like, none of them, like talked about baby stuff, and IVF and adoption and those things, which are all very important. But I was astounded that nobody brought up like, I want to get married. So that if I get in a car accident, you can make medical decisions for me like nobody brought that I was like, what? What? It’s like that’s not

Lara Taylor 23:47that is one of the number one reasons that people back when we were fighting for for same sex marriage. Like that was the that was one of the biggest arguments

Link Keller 23:55that was the big one. Yeah, of being used to buy houses and stuff like that. I assumed that probably they did have those conversations were edited out. But yeah, I was like, even like little, like a single blurb mention of it. I was waiting. I was like, what is it going to? It’s going to come up at some point, right? It’s like episode three. I’m like, it’s got to come up by episode three. And it’s like episode eight. I’m like, how have they not talked about this yet? Okay, yeah,

Lara Taylor 24:22they’re just brought up. They definitely brought a baby several times. And, I mean, that’s something that people are still fighting for. In many states, you still have to adopt as the second parent, even if you do IVF and things like that. So yeah.

Josué Cardona 24:36Link, are you are you upset because it was an opportunity to, like advocate for a topic or remind people of a topic and

Link Keller 24:45I think, given that this is one of, if not the first, fully queer dating, not dating. Well, it’s kind of date reality show. Yeah. And the This is an opportunity to educate people and like that it’s, that’s what it did is like this is here are five sapphic couples, here’s what their lives look like, here’s how their relationships work, here’s how they relate to their parents and their friend groups, their dogs, you know, and it’s like to not touch on what I feel is an important part when you are discussing discussing marriage, which to me is like, the legal aspect is important. That’s the value behind it is more so than the commitment ceremony, because you can just do that. That’s the other thing, I wish somebody would just walk in on the episode one and just be like, Hey, by the way, like we’re offering commitment ceremonies out back, if you want to skip all this, well, we can da a hand-fasting it’s fine. But I just feel like it was a missed opportunity. Because there are people for whom they they do not know the queer people in their neighborhoods, they are not related to anybody that they know is queer, they don’t have access to this kind of information. And and if you don’t seek it out, like watching reality TV, that’s all you’re gonna have as information. And so it bummed me out that they didn’t talk about what I feel is such when you are talking about queer relationships, and marriage, I feel like that legal aspect is so valuable to touch on. And it’s such recent history. So it sort of bummed me out that they missed that opportunity to talk about it.

Lara Taylor 26:36They did discuss at one point, Mel mentions insurance and health insurance.

Link Keller 26:41Yes,

Lara Taylor 26:42putting and putting Yoly on insurance. And I was surprised how easy mal made it seem like we’re good. Let’s just put Yoly on insurance. And that is not something you can just do. You still have to be married or have a domestic partnership in most situations, to put somebody on your insurance?

Link Keller 27:00Or if it is the employers like policy and they’re loose about is like, that’s great until you’re not working there anymore.

Lara Taylor 27:10exactly

Link Keller 27:11It’s like, oh, that’s now it’s a problem again, it’s like, yeah, that I yeah, I just feel like it was it was a missed opportunity to actually talk about that stuff. Again, statistically, some of these couples did actually talk about that. They just didn’t show on the show by show. Yeah, I wish they had.

Josué Cardona 27:27It’s, I mean, every time we talk about like, representation, right, we look at these, like, we put so much pressure on that representation on like this. This is the first one, you got to cover all the major points, what are you doing? So I agree, I agree with that. But it wasn’t until I mean, again, I only saw two episodes. But like, what is the difference between a domestic partnership? Or marriage? Right? It’s, it’s those things, right? Because they were all already living together? Yes.

Link Keller 28:00Right. Two to five years. Yeah, these couples had already been established. So yeah.

Josué Cardona 28:05So So and like you said, all the commitment ceremony were like, that means something to some people. But the truth is, like they had already committed to, like they were in relationships. It wasn’t like love is blind, or it’s like, you’re just meeting somebody like they’ve been there. They’ve had these very difficult conversations about, let’s get married, you know. And so I agree with you that is thinking back on it. Now, it is weird, that they didn’t talk more about why are they different reasons.

Link Keller 28:34I mean, they did, but almost all of them were more like talking emotionally where it’s like I want I want this symbol of our relationship. I want commitment, I want you to prove to our all of our social group that you choose me. And it’s like, that’s absolutely important in a relationship. emotional stuff is very important. But when you are doing a show specifically about marriage, I want you to talk about what that means.

Josué Cardona 29:02Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, now, I’m upset about it too

Lara Taylor 29:07They also there were some people who it wasn’t necessarily the emotional piece. It was more about marriage and kids and they wanted to get married before they had kids. And it does make it you have a lot more protections legally, if you have children together as a queer couple if you are married. And I don’t know if they touched on that, but that was a thing like marriage and then kids.

Link Keller 29:30There’s also just like, generally speaking, so much pressure on couples to do the, what is referred to as the relationship escalator. where you do you do this step you, you start dating, you become exclusive. You move in together, you get engaged, you get married, you buy a house, you have children, and then you’ve won at life! That was sarcasm friends. And so

Josué Cardona 29:58it’s a thing it’s a thing

Link Keller 29:59I would like to To think that queer people don’t foist themselves on to the relationship escalators as frequently as cishet people do, but it’s inescapable. We live in a society. So yeah, yeah, there was definitely people were like, well, we’ve been living together for this long we should be married. It’s like, well, any any other reasoning there? Just, it feels like you’re on a timeline.

Lara Taylor 30:28Yeah. And then mal brings up the like, well, I need to have all the money now to do all those things to just hit it one right after the next like, and that you’re never gonna have that much money. No one’s gonna.

Link Keller 30:41Actually really funny

Josué Cardona 30:41that one I can really, really like that one. Like, I’ve said that those words have come out of my mouth. I’m like, There’s no way that I would put myself in this position, unless all of these other things are in place first. Yeah. And more for like kids and like, different, like, Oh, I’m gonna buy a house? No, no, like, I need to be making this much money before I do something like that. Just and I don’t know, that comes from, you know, trauma and your past. You’re like, No, my parents were really stupid. Because they did this without this, or, or I needed this as a child. And I wouldn’t want to do that for someone else. So I’m glad that they brought that up, too, because that’s like a real

Lara Taylor 31:16one. I’m glad they brought up in the reunion, the fact that queer people have to do more planning than

Link Keller 31:23Yes,

Lara Taylor 31:24cishet people planning around children and planning. I mean, it was mostly surrounding children. But there’s so many more things we have to think about before we can even start a process like straight couples can just accidentally have a kid. And then the things can happen out of order. But with but with us, it’s like, okay, well, we have to figure out do we have the money for IVF? Do we do that do we adopt we well, how do we do things? Do we what kind of process and in some ways that’s better? In some ways, that’s great that we’re thinking about these things, having these conversations, but also it’s a lot of pressure.

Link Keller 32:01And functionally takes more time. Which means that if somebody wants to carry the baby themselves, it requires a lot more planning, strategizing. Yes, yeah. I am glad that they did mention that. But it was funny that it was in the reunion episode And they finally said it explicitly. It’s like, Yeah,

Josué Cardona 32:28I can’t imagine, right, like so. So let’s just assume that everybody on the show, has had a version of this conversation, right? And then the editors are like, let’s only talk about Rae’s version, like, like what she wants to do, because she’s thought about it more. Let’s talk about this one, right. It’s like, how do you again, like we make all these impressions, like we have all these assumptions about the about the people on the show? Like, I don’t know if this turns out that way. Oh, I guess I do. But like in that first episode, I’m like, Oh, they’re making Vanessa out to be like, this horrible

Lara Taylor 33:02I hated her from the second she opened her mouth. mm mm no.

Josué Cardona 33:06But it’s like it’s, but like, it was easy to make her that right from the very from the very beginning. It’s like, we’re only going to do this this. It’s actually yeah, this is okay. This is another thing that bothers me about about, oh, really another reason why I don’t watch reality TV. Because I was almost going to talk and I’m stopping myself. But talking about Vanessa, the way I would talk about a Batman villain in a comic book, because I forget that that’s a real person, right? As much as it is a caricature of them through editing, and possibly even her own like she she may be playing a character as well. That’s still a real person. And I don’t want to, I get the appeal. I get the appeal of the shows, right? Like having a villain hating a person. It’s like, everybody, it brings it brings people together.

Lara Taylor 33:56It’s interesting, because it’s interesting, because in the reunion, she admits, like barely, but she admits that she did these things that it was not good. And that version, the version of Vanessa, that was portrayed to us, which might only be a certain percentage of her but it’s still there. She still did all those things and said all those things, is not a good person, and I’m the person that I want to be around, and that I would actively want to get out of my life. Yeah, but that is that version of her maybe not the whole thing, but at the end, it seems like she admits like I may have

Link Keller 34:42I think she legitimately showed some growth. I don’t know if that’s just because it was paired with the reveal that I feel like we’ll probably cover the rest of our conversation here. In the reunion In one of the couples, Tiff and Mildred who came in together Mildred gave the ultimatum to Tiff. They had a very contentious relationship that in the beginning episodes was very clearly like they fought so much, but they had really great sex so they kept getting back together. At the reunion, Mildred reveals very nonchalantly that she got arrested for domestic domestic violence, for throwing things at Tiff. And it was awful. It was awful to watch. They didn’t give me any trigger warnings on the episode which fuck you Netflix to be honest. And then they didn’t do any closure after that reveal. They just let her say that Tiff got really triggered ended up leaving

Lara Taylor 35:54because she was gaslit

Link Keller 35:55right in front of everybody. It was awful to watch

Lara Taylor 35:59all the reactions, all the faces was just like, whoa, whoa, whoa, what’s going on here

Link Keller 36:04I truly think it is abhorrent that Netflix allowed that to happen. Mildred should not have been allowed back

Lara Taylor 36:12I have seen I have seen things similarly happen in like real world reunions, and things like that. However, I mean,

Josué Cardona 36:20you mean the show real world?

Lara Taylor 36:21the real world Yeah, show real world. The reunion specials that they have at the end of the show. Where they bring everybody together, and they talk about all the dirt that happened, I will see things like that come up. And MTV did a better job of stopping and having a conversation about it or what, like they still would take the camera and follow the person and whatever and kind of harass him a bit. And it was before trigger warnings on things. And it was but better job. I think, in this situation if it weren’t a real world show. Mildred would have gotten confronted by the host and been like, what was that? Like?

Link Keller 37:04Well, we can do a fun little segue into the host the host for the season. Not Nick and Vanessa ‘famously married’ Lachey. They instead had a new person come on to host to this and it was a straight woman who seemed incredibly uncomfortable surrounded by sapphic people, like truly uncomfortable. um not a great choice. You guys Netflix way, what were you thinking? But yeah, it’s extra upsetting to me, because on a previous season of love is blind. One of the contestants had done shitty stuff, like he was not a nice person. He didn’t do domestic violence, but they did not invite him back. He was not at the reunion. And then they all got to spend some fun time shitting on him, which I enjoyed. But it’s like, clearly like Netflix knew Netflix, there’s no way Netflix didn’t know about this. So the fact that they probably had the police report both on and had this confrontation, and then didn’t offer any sort of support to Tiff or to the rest of the contestants that had to witness this and just sit there because cameras were on them. And they’re not, they’re not supposed to leave. So it’s just sitting there. It’s like they didn’t do any sort of support for that. And then the episode just ends and they don’t talk about it. I’m like so upset about that. It was truly appalling to me,

Lara Taylor 38:31the one thing I appreciated was, Sam got up and walked out and followed Tiff and gave them a hug and some like reassurance. And the one thing was the producer was like okay, let’s at least get you inside because it’s cold out here and you shouldn’t be out here in the cold. That is all they did for TIFF. I’m sure off the scenes there was like, Hey, why don’t you come back inside and come back to the show? But we don’t know if that happened. Yeah. The thing with Mildred was yes, I didn’t like her that much on the show. But she was a surprise villain. Like

Link Keller 39:08exactly yes. She really on the editing was like, I don’t really like this person. I don’t think I would choose to spend time with her. She seems fine.

Lara Taylor 39:17Cuz it was more Mutual. It sounded like a mutual argument. And like, even with her relationship with Aussie, like, I also didn’t like Aussie. I didn’t like either of them in that situation. So, but I did see her and I was like, Okay, this, this doesn’t feel right. But like, I wasn’t like, Oh, she’s gonna start throwing pet gates at people and stuff like that. Like, that’s rough. Um, and she just gaslit Tiff the whole time. It was, it was painful.

Link Keller 39:50I think there is something to be said that the reason that Netflix let this happen is because It’s sapphic couples. And the femme presenting woman did domestic violence on the masc presenting non binary person. And if it had been the other way, I don’t think that they would have let tiff come, they would have kept her off. And because it was a femme presenting woman, women who commit domestic violence are not treated the same way as men. And I think that that is a huge part of it, and I don’t like it. It’s real shitty.

Lara Taylor 40:40It’s real shitty. I do. I don’t like the way Netflix handle it. I do like that there is a chance for us to talk about

Link Keller 40:49Yes,

Lara Taylor 40:49domestic violence in queer relationships. Kayla and I have talked about it on our on the episode where we talked about our Kids on Brooms game where we don’t talk about interpersonal harm in relationships with queer people, especially women. And so it was somebody’s first experience of like, oh, shit, a femme girl can do that? And wasn’t great. Tiff didn’t deserve that. Nobody deserves to go through that to have to educate people. I’m hopeful that someone learned something.

Josué Cardona 41:29Yeah, so when they brought it up in the last episode in the reunion episode, I It never occurred to me that they were referring to something that was actually shown on the show.

Lara Taylor 41:39That wasn’t shown on the show.

Josué Cardona 41:40Oh it wasn’t shown on the show?

Link Keller 41:42in between the 2021 filming and the 2023 January reunion filming

Josué Cardona 41:48Okay, okay. Okay. That’s what I’m sorry. I thought you were saying that like, they were

Link Keller 41:53I mean, it definitely showed them fighting and it was a heated but it was verbal yelling.

Josué Cardona 42:01Okay. Okay. Okay. I

Lara Taylor 42:02cannot even think it was like, like, physically, like, threatening, like getting each other space. I don’t think I remember any of that. But it was it was verbal. And yeah, it it is it was a wild. The way she does it in the reunion is just like, Oh, yeah. And I got arrested. And they took my engagement ring. And I never put it back on making it about her and blaming Tiff for this thing.

Link Keller 42:31With the phrasing. She said she’s probably mangling this, but she said you called the police at me. And I think that phrasing of just completely lacking taking any responsibility for how that situation happens. And just being like you called the police at me, and I was just like, Oh, no. Buck wild. Yeah. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 43:03This is the appeal, isn’t it? This is

Link Keller 43:06sort of, again, I truly think it was a travesty that they let Mildred come on in and speak to that herself. I don’t think she was entitled to do that. But, you know, what can you do? Side note, another thing I mad at Netflix about is that during the main show, and also the reunion, they did not specify anybody’s pronouns. And not everybody used she her pronouns. They didn’t care they just kept she/her-ing everybody.

Lara Taylor 43:43She was even even people in the couples I think you in the original couples would use she

Link Keller 43:49and it’s it’s a little bit of a gray area, because again, they’re you know, there’s two years in between the original filming and the reunion filming and I’m pretty sure at least one of the people who uses they them pronouns that was in that in between point but it was truly like, you know, Netflix is doing promotions on Twitter and Tik Tok and I assume Facebook and Instagram. Like there are opportunities for them to be better about this and they fumbled that ball hard. Way less important than the domestic violence stuff, but it did personally annoy me. Ah

Josué Cardona 44:33I’m looking up. I told you I had an article with everybody’s name so I could keep I could keep track. Yeah. Doesn’t make sense? Why Netflix? Do you know if this has been a hit for Netflix?

Link Keller 44:48I don’t know that I have a good measure of if it’s a hit or not. I know that. Once I started engaging with content on tik tok. There was a lot of it but That doesn’t necessarily mean that it is more widely popular so much as tik tok knows what I’m into. I feel like generally speaking, the Netflix reality shows to pretty well, that’s why they keep making them.

Josué Cardona 45:18Cuz I’m thinking of pushing the envelope, right, like, were there discussions about keeping, like, keeping the the Mildred and Tiff stuff there? Or not? Because you didn’t have to right? but it was like, Oh, this is good. You know? Fuck what, you know, again, we’re talking about the network that that did, um, 13 reasons why. And then made two extra seasons. Right? I mean, you know, those conversations happen in the room, and it’s like, fuck it. This is, you know, some people are gonna love this. So let’s put it out there. I don’t see an announcement for the season three of the ultimatum yet. But

Link Keller 46:09I mean, given given the timeline, they probably already filmed seasons three and four? I don’t I don’t know. I do. I do think you’re right, there is absolutely an aspect to it, where any engagement is good engagement from the perspective of show runners, producers, executives who get paid big money, right is like, even if it’s just everybody tweeting and making videos about how triggered they were watching the reunion episode, because they didn’t realize they were going to be talking about interpartner violence. And watching somebody completely fall apart about it as a victim and being like, that’s me, that happened to me. And no warning or anything. Like people talking about it online is people talking about it online, even if what they’re saying is I was emotionally harmed by this. They’re still talking about it. So that’s great, right? I don’t agree with that. But there are certainly heartless people who do. whose own livelihoods are tied to that very idea that any engagement is good engagement.

Josué Cardona 47:26I think of fast and the furious, right? You look at like you look at the first movie, and you know, every movie, kicks it up a notch, right? And people used to joke about like, oh, there’ll be in space next. And yeah, they did that by the ninth movie. Right? And then and then you get right. It’s like you keep getting bigger. And at some point, you’re like, well, we’ve either got to do something completely different, right? Like we kind of take a hard turn, or we need to escalate. And again, like it’s people’s lives, right, that I like, are on display. And it’s just, I don’t, yeah, again, this is why I don’t watch them. But again, I understand the drama like i I wonder how, how often people do think I imagine it goes both ways. We’re one you there’s one of the fake relationships that we have what to call them.

Link Keller 48:25parasocial

Josué Cardona 48:26parasocial, right, right? It’s a type of parasocial relationship where you’re like, oh, like, I know that they’re real. But they’re not really real to you. Right? Like, there’s like this conscious piece of it of like, if it was scripted, would you be as invested? Probably not. Because you, you know, certain people are like, Oh, this is

Link Keller 48:43I’d be less invested. Because it’s bad writing. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, of course, these are, these are real people. Yeah. So some of them are being more authentic. Again, still very heavily edited, you’re never going to get a full picture of a person from any reality TV show or documentary that it can, it cannot hold a whole human being such a failure of the medium. But there are also people who are more willing to be actors. I mean, they’re absolutely people who try and get on these reality TV shows because they are trying to jumpstart their acting career. And anything on your CV is better than nothing. So, you know, you’ve got you’ve got a whole gradient of people who are showing more of themselves intentionally versus showing more of themselves accidentally, versus showing a facade intentionally, accidentally, etc, etc, etc.

Josué Cardona 49:52There’s a book I like called, everything bad is good for you. You might like, I don’t know 10-15 years ago, I don’t know and There’s a whole chapter on reality TV. And it, the case that the author makes is that the appeal of seeing people expressing genuine emotion is something that you can’t really get from, from fiction. And so it can serve as exposure and almost like emotional training, in a way to be able to observe human beings having genuine emotions. And I always try to think about that, right where I’m like, and that’s part of the appeal as well.

Link Keller 50:46absolutely

Josué Cardona 50:47Especially if you’re, if you don’t have a lot of social support a big social network, you don’t, you don’t interact with many people throw you like, stuff. Either your life is so shitty, right? Or it’s just kind of boring, right? Like, there’s different, different versions of it, where it’s like, oh, like, this kind of stuff never happens to me. spoiler, doesn’t happen to most people. Right. But there’s, there’s, it’s like, you’re exercising that emotional muscle?

Link Keller 51:11Yeah.

Josué Cardona 51:13While watching. And so I’ve always thought that that’s, that’s good. And that’s why I think it’s, it’s with clients, I was like, yeah, no, like, well, what show are we talking about? Right? And that you can relate or that you can, whatever you feel about about this stuff. I mean, those are crazy situations. But it’s, it’s,

Link Keller 51:32I think that’s part of why it is engaging for people is because it is, on one hand, an opportunity to be extremely judgmental of other people without getting any sort of negative social blowback at you because there’s a screen in between, you’re fine. But it is also an opportunity for you to imagine yourself in these situations mean like, I would never do that or like, Ooh, I agree with you, I would have said the exact same thing. And that’s, like, beneficial to our brains. It’s why we engage with stories so much. That, again, it’s just circling back to like the the morality and ethics of reality TV show is questionable, but there is a clear benefit and reasoning why people engage with it so much. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 52:25Yeah, yeah. And I mean, with that, the morality and ethics about it, like I, sometimes I feel bad, but also like, I’m like, these people signed up for this, and they knew what they were getting into, especially in a show that has had multiple seasons of a thing. It pisses me off when I’m watching things like HGTV reality shows where they’re flipping houses to, it’s like, you’re arguing with this person about what the design is for the house and all these other things? Don’t you know, this is how the show goes? Like. You can’t fully prepare, I don’t know for exactly what is going on. But you decided to sign a contract. But I don’t know.

Josué Cardona 53:12Yeah, I mean, I don’t know like, as therapists or you sign a contract, kind of right, that you’re gonna come in, you’re gonna work on some stuff, you don’t expect that you’re gonna go into this deeper to trauma, you never thought about it. And right, it’s like, it’s one of those things where you have expectations going in. And but then here, it’s like, your, your life is being recorded, and will be shared and will be edited. And

Lara Taylor 53:39yeah, most of the people on the show, because what happened with Tiff and Mildred happened after the show, between the the ending of the show and the reunion, most of the people who were on the show, actually said they liked the experience and like learn something from the experience and got something out of it. Even if it screwed up their lives. It’s like at least I know now.

Link Keller 54:06I mean, I really felt like all of the people saying that also did a bunch of therapy. And it was just like,

Lara Taylor 54:14probably probably

Link Keller 54:15after working through it. It has been overall a positive experience because I have exhibited so much growth and it’s like, yeah, you exhibited growth because you were being crushed under Netflix’s foot.

Lara Taylor 54:28Oh, yeah.

Josué Cardona 54:30Okay. If someone’s listened this far, and they they they’re still not sure if they want to watch the show. Okay, so that when I watched the reunion episode, again, I didn’t watch anything in between. There was a part where they said, Okay, everyone, “we need to talk about finger-gate”.

Link Keller 54:47we don’t! we actually don’t need to talk about finger gate? We never need to talk about it. I wish you hadn’t called it that and also that the host said that and she looks so uncomfortable saying that I’m contractually obligated to say this line. But I think I am also going to throw up afterwards.

Josué Cardona 55:11And then the people involved in that, including one of our villains. I was like, I was like, I wanted to leave the room and I wasn’t in the room. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 55:25And it was one of those situations where they they portrayed Vanessa as a manipulative narcissist. And I’m not going to agree or disagree with that statement.

Josué Cardona 55:38And I’m going to yet or you know, your therapist hats off here, right? Yeah, exactly. There, you said like, oh, you know, what you’re signing up for? And I, I disagree with that to an extent because it’s like, you know, you’re it may be hard to comprehend, because I’m sure there’s a lot of manipulation and sales. Yeah. And like, like, you’re trying to convince people to do this,

Lara Taylor 56:05like a timeshare thing,

Josué Cardona 56:07Yeah, timeshare, for sure. For sure. And, and much like a timeshare, things are staged, and like, they interview people enough to have an idea of or a hope for how they will be on the show. And you hire the villains deliberately. Right? And you hire like different personalities, so that they clash, right, like this is this is documented stuff, right? Like this. Yeah, this is the recipe for it.

Lara Taylor 56:34There are multiple people that each one of these people could click with to be able to read something about the casting, they want to make sure that there’s at least somebody they’re going to click with and be compatible with.

Josué Cardona 56:47And the opposite as well

Lara Taylor 56:48and the opposite as well. To get those those moments and I think they did, especially with that couple with Xander and Vanessa, they portrayed Xander as a saint, and Vanessa as the devil.

Josué Cardona 57:04But But imagine

Lara Taylor 57:07Xander’s a saint it’s fine.

Josué Cardona 57:09I guess. I mean, I didn’t watch the whole series. I don’t know these people, right. I’m using I’m using Vanessa as an example. But imagine being Vanessa, getting hired for the show. And in that first episode, she’s like, I just really get along with people, you know, like, like people. And she’s just like, kind of bubbly. So you have no, like, it’s the thing that you don’t know that they hired you to be the villain. Like you don’t know that they hired they could have hired other people like you. I don’t know you would have like a support maybe

Lara Taylor 57:36maybe but in one of the maybe she said something like I just came on this show because like, why would Xander Leave me? I’m I’m pretty like

Link Keller 57:50ugh that part messed me up

Josué Cardona 57:51Yeah, that doesn’t mean that like you that she’s

Lara Taylor 57:55they gave the impression and other people who were there got the impression that she was there to get famous. She says she was an influencer. Like she was there she was Yeah, acting, you know, I

Josué Cardona 58:07could have had eight people like her right? She wouldn’t have been the villain, right? Like, like,

Lara Taylor 58:12but the real villain is Mildred

Josué Cardona 58:15But again, I’m just I’m just trying to say like, imagine being recruited and you don’t know that you were hired to be to be the antagonist to the situation.

Link Keller 58:24That’s a terrifying thing to think about. But I do also know with certainty that there are absolutely people who want to be that because that gives you a lot of screen time. Oh, yeah. So I won’t speak either either direction for Vanessa specifically, but I did come out where she’s like, I knew I was gonna be the villain in the in the beginning of the season who could have seen the reunion coming? I would believe her if she said she was in on it. I would also believe her if she’s, I mean, she she has been pretty open. Post the union and being you know, people are like, how do you feel about the way that you were edited and she’s pretty on the nose about it like you don’t really get to control that part. And you know, it is a weird experience. Because in your day to day life, you say stuff, you do things with your body and you don’t, that doesn’t get saved you don’t save that stuff. But when it is recorded, and it is played and it is repeated, and it is clipped together by other people like that thing is over and over and over it

Lara Taylor 59:41and then received and memed on Tik Tok a million times worse is

Link Keller 59:45a level of self awareness that most people never have to deal with. So I do think that that that it’s, I don’t like Vanessa, but I do respect that she’s been open about that aspect of being like, I don’t have control over it it’s weird to see the way that I behaved in those moments. But you know I don’t I don’t regret doing it it was like okay I can respect that

Lara Taylor 1:00:12because I realized while we were talking that it fits this show fits the the Marvel formula the villain throughout and then the sleeper villain

Link Keller 1:00:23coming soon to Disney plus the ultimatum colon Marvel love

Josué Cardona 1:00:33ultimatum Avengers, there’s a whole Ultimate Universe of Yeah. All right,

Link Keller 1:00:39folks. Pitch your Marvel cast for next season of the ultimatum. I look forward. I look forward to it.

Josué Cardona 1:00:50Any final words on on on reality TV? Or, or queer love? The ultimatum. The ultimatum

Link Keller 1:01:03love queer love. I don’t love the ultimatum. I’m mad at Netflix. That’s my final statement.

Lara Taylor 1:01:14I want more queer reality shows, I think yes. More queer reality.

Link Keller 1:01:19That’s actually the loophole, if Netflix puts out 3040 more seasons of queer shows, then I won’t have anything to complain about. That’s not true. I would still find

Lara Taylor 1:01:30that’s not true! you’d complain But you would also be happy that there was that much representation,

Link Keller 1:01:35I would be so happy.

Lara Taylor 1:01:36It was nice to I mean, yes, I watched Tila Tequila when I was younger, but like, it was nice to see people like me, again, because Danny was like almost the only I think only the only butch person on that show. But people like me on a show. And the drama in the sapphic community is always wonderful. So we knew what they would bring it. But I would like more I would like to see more. Because if we’re going to torture the straight people, why not? Why not also torture the queers.

Link Keller 1:02:10And that’s equality.

Josué Cardona 1:02:16So, so I want to I want to wrap this up by saying something that I haven’t said in like two years, and I’m so happy. So on the latest episode of Black Mirror, there was something very relevant. Okay. The first episode of season six, okay, is called Joan is awful. Let me tell you the premise of Joan is awful. Joan goes to work one day, and a few things happen that are not great. She gets home that day. She hasn’t had a good day, she sits down and on a platform called stream Berry, which is it’s like it’s Netflix. It’s the same. It’s everything out. It’s called stream Barry. There’s a show called Joan is awful. And Joan starts watching it. And Joan is awful is portraying her life from that day, in the morning, step by step portrayed by other people. And I love black mirror very, very much. And basically, the episode, the premise of the episode is that so much of our information is already out there. Right? Like, like, we don’t have a camera crew with us. But we are recorded constantly. And we have things hearing us and all that. And how much of that information is actually ours. Right? Like you’re giving Vanessa’s example of like, well, I signed away this stuff. And it’s weird, and I don’t have control of that. But then imagine it to the extreme that everything that you know, all these devices and their phones and the computers are listening that Netflix could then just go and say hey, I’m gonna make a show about it. And since technology is this good, we can just make the show almost in real time using AI and the digital and like like Bruce Willis signed away the rights to his digital self like to be to be appear in movies. Grimes has opened sourced her voice right to us and so right so and then it just imagine a world where they could your whole life could just be and also dramatized because it’s a one hour episode of an entire day. And the episode is called Joan is awful. And the show is called Joan is awful inside the episode because they make that argument that’s like, well, that’s what people like. We tried, you know, we tried to make you know, Joan is amazing. And Joan is great and nobody nobody was interested. So we’re just gonna make these shows where and it’s so it’s so sad that that’s like what sells more if you’re if you’re in a capitalist economy, right so society and you’re gonna make money. That’s how you do it. If you’re NPR and you’re publicly funded and you know you can you can make this as This American Life. But if you’re trying to make money, tell something to Netflix or get more subscribers. You feed off of the drama. And so

Lara Taylor 1:05:20you do feed off the drama, although a lot of people loved Yoly and Xander but that’s a story for another

Link Keller 1:05:29I feel like Yoly got kind of villainous at the end

Lara Taylor 1:05:33oh she did. I did

Josué Cardona 1:05:34I was gonna bring up Yoly as like, she seemed like Mildred’s ally at the end.

Josué Cardona 1:05:39Oh, yes.

Link Keller 1:05:39And she’s caught some heat for that, too.

Lara Taylor 1:05:43Good. Yeah. She’s I don’t want to get to sleep or henchmen. She’s a sleeper henchmen. Right. Like,

Josué Cardona 1:05:49I don’t want to be this invested.

Lara Taylor 1:05:52I’m gonna go back and watch. Oh, no,

Josué Cardona 1:05:54I will not. I will not. I will not.

Lara Taylor 1:05:58I will just watch all the tiktoks

Link Keller 1:05:59Yeah, just watch the tiktoks

Josué Cardona 1:06:00absolutely not watch it. Again, I mean, I mean, again, I brought up that Black Mirror episode because this connects to so many different things. Just the editing piece, the people’s lives being on display, and just

Link Keller 1:06:14drama selling

Josué Cardona 1:06:16the drama sells, right. It’s all I mean, I think there’s a lot of stuff being touched on there. And who knows what the future will hold? No, it’s usually whatever Black mirror shows

Link Keller 1:06:28Tune in next week for our Black Mirror episode.

Josué Cardona 1:06:34I don’t even think of that connection. And so like, halfway through this episode, I was like, exactly what the episode is about. Well, thank you for joining us, let us know. You know, but what your favorite moments from the ultimatum queer love were? What pissed you off? Or you know what reality TV shows you like, why you like him? I don’t like during the conversation in our community spaces. All those links are in the show notes. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for listening. Remember to geek out into good. We’ll be back next week.

Link Keller 1:07:05mmmBye.

Josué Cardona 1:07:06Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• The Ultimatum: Queer Love
• Love Trip: Paris
• The Real World
• A Shot at Love with Tila Tequila
• Road Rules
• Survivor
• Curve magazine
• Love is Blind
• Kids on Brooms (TTRPG)
• The Fast and Furious series
• Everything Bad Is Good for You: How Today’s Popular Culture Is Actually Making Us Smarter by Steven Johnson
• Black Mirror

Conversation Topics:

* Abortion* Alcohol/substance abuse* Betrayal* Consequences* Cultural representation* Difficult emotions* Family* Feeling alone* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* LGBT Issues* Love* Mental Health Services* Moral dilemma* Parasocial Relationships* Problem Solving* Rumors/gossip* Standing up for oneself* Trust* Taking responsibility for one’s actions

Relatable Experience:

* Abuse* Alcohol/substance abuse* Breakup* Clarity/Understanding* Coming Out* Domestic Violence* Divorce* Fear/Anxiety* Fighting* Foster Care/Adoption* New Life Event (New Rules)* Separation* Trauma

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Marc Cuiriz 0:11Good evening, everybody. This is one of your wonderful co hosts Marc Cuiriz here on Geek Therapy radio. We’re here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. Joining me today on this lovely evening is the illustrious link Keller,

Link Keller 0:33yo,

Marc Cuiriz 0:34and the ever inspiring Josué Cardona.

Josué Cardona 0:39Greetings.

Marc Cuiriz 0:41How’d you guys like the new intro today?

Link Keller 0:44It’s good.

Josué Cardona 0:45You’re leveling up,

Marc Cuiriz 0:46you know, I

Link Keller 0:47sultry, even.

Marc Cuiriz 0:49I noticed that. And this kind of goes in fitting with today’s topic. But I noticed that for a while a lot of a lot of the times my intro would want to mimic Josué and kind of how he does the intro. And I always saw that as my way of trying to sort of blend in with everything kind of kind of fit myself into everything. But today I’m on my drive home. I was like, You know what, I kind of want to give it a Sardonyx kind of vibe, you know, just kind of be really out there and kind of stand out for myself and kind of differentiate my intros from Josué’s from Link’s, has Lara ever done an intro?

Link Keller 1:35not if she can help it?

Josué Cardona 1:37I don’t I can’t remember a single time

Link Keller 1:40once and she she beat us all up afterwards. So never again. I’m just kidding. I think that’s great. You’re, you’re individuating Isn’t that lovely?

Marc Cuiriz 1:53Exactly. So. So this kind of goes in hand with the topic that I chose for this week. And this, this topic came up. When I saw Spider Man across the spider verse a couple a couple of weeks ago, I’m not going to really get too spoilery I’m going to try and actually avoid all spoilers about it if I can, but really just kind of touch on a major theme with in the movie, which was fitting in and having to find your place in society in the world, in your own social groups and sort of going on that journey and discovering kind of where where does someone like where do you fit in, in your life and things like that? So I’m kind of curious as to sort of what you guys have experienced with when it comes to like, figuring out where you fit in with things or what sort of journeys you guys have gone on. Either in the past or currently things like that.

Josué Cardona 3:06Link, you fit in everywhere, right? Always.

Link Keller 3:08I’m a social chameleon, which I am learning may also be a sign of autism. But that’s another episode we’ll get into. Yeah, yeah, I’ve had you know, as a as a kid, I moved a lot. So I got really good at making myself socially open to people to make social connections and, and to fit in with groups. Very much in high school. Like I hung out with nerds, but I also hung out with the Goths. And occasionally the stoners and didn’t, you know didn’t quite make the full drift cycle into like the sports and theater side. But yeah, fitting in, it is a great topic for this because there’s so much good media, talking about those kinds of stories because it’s true is like there is skill and effort involved in learning how to connect with people to get that feeling of fitting in and there are times when you do fit in but you don’t feel it. And so that’s I think an important thing to talk about as well.

Josué Cardona 4:31I think it’s really interesting that you used the words blending in at the beginning marc, because you’re like, oh, you know, I’m gonna do the same thing everybody else does. So I don’t stand out. And it’s like the overlap between like the blending in and the fitting in. Because it’s making me think how I did not want to do anything that would make me stand out. But I did that because I did not want to fit in I didn’t want I wanted to be invisible, I hated everybody, I didn’t want to fit in. I was like, How can I? How can I? How can I blend in the most, so that nobody tries to bring me into their group. I hadn’t hadn’t thought about it when we were that way, as we were, you know, coming up with this. With this, I do, I do have that chameleon aspect, which, which is very unconscious in many ways. Like, I adopt things from different groups, and I completely don’t do it on purpose.

Link Keller 5:40It’s totally like a human defense mechanism is like we we rely on each other. And so it is like, beneficial to be able to read social cues and then replicate them as a way to be like, see, I’m part of the group, please don’t throw me out into the wilderness.

Josué Cardona 6:01Again, I may be wrong, but I didn’t. I don’t want to do that. You know, like, if I’m speaking with someone who has a particular accent, my accent starts changing. If I have I started adopting words that I didn’t mean to adopt. At some point, my life changed. And I knew I was like, Oh, shit, I sound just like this other person now laughing How did what? How did that happen? That’s, I don’t know. That is that is a way to fit in. Right? Like, you have people dressing up a particular way or doing something right to fit in with that group right like, I don’t I don’t know, did you? What did you do to fit in with the goths and the stoners at your school? Or were you just yourself? And they were just so accepting.

Link Keller 6:53I mean, we’re talking about high school. So no, the nobodies that accepting. I not not so much like the the social signifiers like clothes and things like that, mostly because I spent a significant amount of my youth and adulthood uh poor, so I, you know, I buy secondhand clothes, and I prefer comfort over fashion. And so not so much that that social signifier to other people, but you know, my go to move is I sort of I sort of circled group, make a little circle I’m observing, I’m seeing who is talking to who I’m seeing what jokes are being utilized. I’m seeing what media people are talking about. And that was the in. So talking about music with the goth kids, that was the in. I wasn’t playing Pokemon at that time. But Pokemon Pearl and diamond came out while I was in my senior year of high school, and the nerdy kids who hung out next to the library were all on their, you know, on their DSs playing. And I’m just like, tell me all about the new Pokemon. I’m interested in this. And you know, at that point, had actually made some legitimate friends who are like, Okay, I need you to actually get a DS and get Pokemon and play with me. And I’m like, Okay, now I know I’m in because you’re actually asking me to engage more than just talking about the thing. It’s like, No, I want you to play the thing with me. But yeah, I mean, you know, I, we talk all the time about how media helps us understand each other and ourselves better. And, and that has always been my go to have like, you know, Oh, I see that you’re, you know, reading a book or you’re listening to something on your headphones. What are you listening to? And using that away to engage with people or, like, you know, did you see that cool new sci fi movie everybody’s been talking about? Like, what did you think about that, and using that as a way to, if not build, like, deep meaningful friendships than at least creating that social connection where somebody feels as though I’m at least an acquaintance and therefore could potentially make the next step into like, true friendship. So yeah, it’s a it’s definitely a skill though. Like when I was when I was in middle school is more like if I’m if I’m a silly little jester, everybody will find me charming and they won’t ask me to leave when I jester around to them. Being a little clown.

Marc Cuiriz 9:37aight,

Link Keller 9:38that doesn’t work as well as an adult.

Marc Cuiriz 9:42I think for me, I was definitely a lot more like Josué in the sense where I was like, don’t Please don’t Don’t Don’t call attention to me. I don’t want to be seen. I don’t want to be noticed. I just want to blend into the background. And also had those those chameleon that That’s like I was able to socially chameleon myself and and camouflage myself and all the groups. But what helped me be able to go from group to group was not so much of like me sort of connecting to them through the media or for whatever it was, it was usually because I always knew at least one person, whether that was a person that was in my class that I just talked to a little bit more often. Or it was like a family member, like one of my cousins or something like that, there was always somebody that I knew. So there was always at least one connection that I could just like slither my way into, so what I would do is I would basically say, like, hi, like, I would scan the entire area, scan the entire group, find the one person and Beeline it to them, and then just be around them enough, and then take in everything. And then I, again, I was also a person that adopts different mannerisms, I, how my voice would be, and how I would communicate with people would change the language that I would use would change. And this is something that my wife has pointed out several times when, depending on who I’m talking to, she’ll be like, Why are you talking like that? Or why are you saying things like that you don’t talk like that, like, and I don’t realize that either. Like, it’s just my way of like, I just don’t want to make any waves. I don’t want to ruffle any feathers, I just need to fly under the radar and make myself just invisible.

Link Keller 11:30I think there’s a sort of like an unconscious element to it. Where you’re, you’re reflecting back to a person. And people like to look at their reflection is doing a little mirror action. People are like, you know, I like that. I like you.

Josué Cardona 11:48And you called it a defense mechanism earlier. Right. And like, I think I think you know, with enough trauma, you know, and that’s one of those things that just comes up because it’s a way of staying safe.

Link Keller 11:58safe Yeah, absolutely.

Marc Cuiriz 12:00And I think for me, at the time, when now all that was happening, I thought that that was me being able to fit in with everybody. Like I was like I fit in with a group I can hang out with the jocks because of my cousins and everything like that I can hang out with the theater kids, because that’s what I do. I have the choir band kids because I’m taking that class, I got this that whatever I could blend in with everybody. So I thought I could fit in. I was fitting in with everybody. And when I look back at it now it’s like no, no, I did not fit in there were there were some groups that I hung around sometimes where it’s like, I definitely did not belong in that group. It’s just that I was just able to camouflage enough that no one really asked or raised, too many eyebrows are asked too many questions about it. They’re like, okay, he’s here. It’s like that, like, little, like, stray dog that comes by and people just can’t turn it away because it looks so adorable. And they’re like, alright, we’ll keep you around for a little bit. That was basically me and I look back on it. I’m like, Okay, I’m starting to realize that I didn’t fit in with every group, but also started asking why did I think that I was fitting in, like, what about the blending in aspect of it made me feel like I belonged to that particular group, even though I knew or at least I know, now that that wasn’t the case.

Josué Cardona 13:21You said the thing about like that the dog that just keep it around. I see that as like, I don’t know if you fit in or not, but you were not rejected.

Link Keller 13:34I was just thinking, I think that’s such an important thing is like there, especially when you’re young. That feeling of fitting in is less about actually authentically being yourself and being accepted by authentic people around you. And more. So I am not currently being rejected. therefore I’m fitting in, I’m fitting in just fine. I think that’s such as you grow up and mature having that realization that those are like two separate bars there of fitting in bar and being rejected bar. I think that’s a good point.

Josué Cardona 14:10It wasn’t until like, my early 20s When I started thinking of groups that I even wanted to be a part of. Until that point, it was always just like, just don’t, don’t reject me at the you know, to that point. Just like let me play pokémon in the corner and don’t just leave me the fuck alone. Please just don’t, you know, like, why does it matter? What does it matter what my hair looks like? What does it matter?

Link Keller 14:38Let me exist in your space, but don’t don’t have expectations for me, please

Josué Cardona 14:44everyone’s so judgey

Link Keller 14:45just let me exist near you.

Josué Cardona 14:47I mean, the the founding reason of Geek Therapy as an organization as an idea is that and I didn’t realize this like really, really well until A couple years ago, but it was me dealing with me being rejected all the time. Right. And I was like, when I work with my clients, when I worked with other people, I never want them to feel rejected. To how can I feel right? So a big part of it is sure we can connect over all this media, but the but but like, a lot of the skills that we teach are, how to how to be open to it, right? Don’t roll your eyes. Don’t let me know that you don’t like the Star Wars prequels Shut up. Right? Don’t yuck my yum, right, it’s a little thing. It’s things like that, that they’re not small, right? Like, if you’re working with clients that are children, you may be one of the few and maybe even the only adult in their life that hopefully, is not dismissive of parts of them, or is willing to listen to them talk about the shows that they’re like, or the problems that they’re having. A lot of a lot of us don’t didn’t have that, right, our parents didn’t know how we’re doing for a number of reasons. And there are many reasons why the adults in our lives when we’re younger, they have, they’re sharing their opinions, they’re concerned about you, they think they know what’s best. And so it’s like, everything’s a problem, from the way you dress to the way you talk to the way you look to the way you think. And that stuff can can wear on you. And so the idea that, you know, when you’re in a therapeutic relationship, teacher, you know, relationship, any any kind of mentoring, and having somebody that will just, again, not like, oh, I fit in. So I’m, I’m not even going as far as like, I want to say accepting, but I’ll take tolerating, and just not even ideally, it’s acceptance, right? But at the very least, like, just let me live. And again, that’s not fitting in. But that that is, that is a big part of it as well. Just feeling there’s a difference between not feeling rejected. And, and just exist existing without conflict, versus being accepted and embraced in a in a group. Marc, how are you fitting in, you’re doing alright?

Marc Cuiriz 17:21Man, you, you got a whole lot of stuff. And it’s so since since I’ve started my internship, and I mean, we talked about this a little bit before, before we started recording, where I’m going to be starting to see children clients, and one of my biggest things is like i How, how does one work with work with children like that. And so I think what you were saying earlier about, you know, worth working with young kids of like, I might potentially be the only adult in their life that is willing to listen to them and you know, kind of hear them out or things like that, like that’s, that’s something that’s really important. It’s something that I was like, kind of reminding, like getting reminded of like, oh, yeah, like, that’s true. And that’s a very important piece of it. Because I know for a fact for me, when I was growing up no one gave a shit man like, they were just like, you know, what, you just whatever you do your thing and, you know,

Josué Cardona 18:31are you playing your little games? with your little toys and your little shows.

Marc Cuiriz 18:36basically. And I remember throughout my entire high school, you know, time I was looking for a group that I felt like I truly belonged to that I’ve truly fit in with. And I tried so hard to make several groups, that group and nothing stuck. Nothing really, nothing really encapsulated everything that I wanted in a group. I think I just always wanted to really feel like I could truly be my authentic self, and then feel accepted, not just tolerated, but accepted. And I didn’t I didn’t get that in high school. I don’t I didn’t get that really until Geek Therapy and listening to the podcasts and binging everything and basically engulfing myself in this this green wave that is that is this organization. It’s and let me tell you, the like when I listened to the very first episode, the within the first 10 minutes of the conversation between you and Dr. O’Connor. i My entire body had chills. And I was at I was at work I was I was at target at the time. And like I my face like I can feel it like physically like lighting up. And like I just like, felt so excited because I was like, This is it, this is the group I was looking for, I think I finally found a place where I feel like I can truly fit in and feel like I have like a sense of belonging somewhere. And it’s been a wonderful journey. And, you know, on and sort of discovering more about who I am as a person and kind of being more involved in this organization and everything like that. And I think that if you try to spend a lot of your time trying to find the place or the group or something where you feel like you can fit in, it’s nine times out of 10 not going to really work out. Because you’re you’re trying hard and you’re looking for it, I think it’s something that just sort of comes naturally to you. Because by trying to do something, I feel like you’re, you’re not going to be your authentic self, because you’re going to start overthinking it, you’re going to start analyzing it, you’re going to start breaking things down. And then you might have some unrealistic expectations. But it’s when you kind of let the guard down. And sort of just let yourself be who you are. They’re going to start like kind of gravitating around you. And then you you end up either finding the group or you create the group in which you you feel like you belong.

Josué Cardona 21:30I’ve got two thoughts one, I mean, we’ve kind of all talked a little bit about how maybe like our identities aren’t as well defined as like, they could be right, like, so there’s some some problems there where you’re like, who am I? Like, what, what do I even like? You know, like, it’s hard to like, if you were looking for groups to you were looking for belonging, but you didn’t know what you were looking for. You didn’t know what that felt like

Link Keller 22:02you have a bunch of practice doing avoiding rejection, rather than seeking fitting in?

Josué Cardona 22:09Yeah. And like, if you have no reference to that, right, you’re like, I don’t know, what does that feel like? It’s hard to look for it. Yeah,

Link Keller 22:16I think also having if you grow up around your parents, or whoever raises you, and if if they have friends, and you get to see how they interact with friends, that is instructive for you as a young person. My My parents didn’t really have friends. Like, I can probably count on like, one hand, how many times like my parents were like, friends are coming over? And it’s like, you have friends? Yeah, yeah, people who like choose to hang out with you? That’s weird. I never thought of that before. But um, this is definitely something that wasn’t really modeled to me in that way. Like, my grandparents were much, much more social within their community. And so it’s like, I got to see how you be a community member, and interact with a bunch of different people and do activities together. But a lot of those people, it’s just they weren’t, they were, my grandfather is a Mason. And so they did a lot of like Masonic and associated Masonic things. And so it’s like, there were some of those people were very much they were friends, like, they spent time together outside of Mason things, but most of it was within that social structure. And so it’s like, I think probably I learned a lot of skills from watching them interact with people and, you know, modeling those behaviors to me, and that went directly into the way I made friends in middle and high school, but I didn’t really know how to do like real deep friendships until, you know, graduating high school and actually investing in the friends that I was like, You know what, you’re worth it to try and figure out how to actually do this. And now I have like, such an amazing group of friends that I deeply love and deeply appreciate and feel authentic and seen and loved and, and absolutely fitting in. Yeah, I think I think if I I’m, I am remembering the first time that I played d&d, I was probably eight or nine, and my mom had, like her friend and that friend’s boyfriend and then the boyfriends other friend. And we all play d&d together. And only like it wasn’t a full friend group. But it was enough, close enough that I was like, this is legitimately the coolest thing I’ve ever seen. I didn’t know adults did this. It’s just like, most of them don’t, but some of them do. Some of them do have like friends that they play with and they are joyful around and it’s not just like we have to do a specific thing. activity, or we are going towards a certain goal is like we’re just spending time with each other enjoying each other. And I think that’s beautiful. And I wish I had seen it more as a kid. But thankfully, I get to see it a lot as an adult. So that’s nice.

Josué Cardona 25:17Link, you and I are Third Culture kids. Have we talked about this before?

Link Keller 25:21third culture kids?

Josué Cardona 25:22have we talked about this before?

Link Keller 25:23what does that mean?

Josué Cardona 25:24So there’s this concept of Third Culture, meaning that you do not have a, you moved around a lot as a kid, right? And so you didn’t have a place to call home to go back to it’s like, where are you from? It’s like, I don’t know, I’ve moved around a lot. And so wherever you go, you’re never really a part of that place. And then you also don’t have a place to go back to. Right.

Link Keller 25:51oh

Josué Cardona 25:51So this concept of the Third Culture is this group of people who, what they have in common is that they don’t have like a home base. Right? So you and I like, and me shit, I’m, I haven’t lived. This is the first time in my life, since I was 15, that I’ve lived somewhere for longer than three years. And I made a decision last year that I was like, No, I’m going to try to set some roots, I’m gonna, like, stay here. And this is gonna be like, Chicago is gonna be my place. And now I’m like, Oh, this is weird.

Link Keller 26:29yeah

Josué Cardona 26:30Because it’s a it’s a, it’s an uncomfortable feeling. I don’t, I don’t, I don’t, I’ve never had that. Right of like, this is where I can, if things go south, this is where I’m going to or like being born into a place even that I like to identify with, like, if you have that from the beginning, that’s kind of an advantage. Right?

Link Keller 26:51Absolutely.

Josué Cardona 26:52If you don’t, then you have to, like you said, develop the skills to kind of make friends. And also, how do you fit it in different places, sometimes that are completely different. Like I had to speak completely different languages and the different places where I was living, and just so many things were different and hard. But yeah

Link Keller 27:13I think probably one of the more important life lessons that I’ve learned is around like this, this idea of like, how do I fit in. And, and sort of realizing like, there are instances in which I don’t, I don’t want to fit in. And that is the good and right choice for me. And putting myself in positions where it’s like, I have to be liked, I have to be un-rejected from this group, I have to show that I have value, so people will not hate me. Or ignore me, which is sometimes worse. And just like, as, as an adult coming around the realization, like, you know, especially getting out of high school where you are obligated to be within social groups is like losing that kind of schooling structure. And sort of coming into this understanding of myself as like, I get to choose when I am going to expend that energy of opening myself up and being authentic and present and open with people as like, there are times where it’s not healthy to do that. And there are times when it’s it count, it goes counter to what I am trying to achieve or what I’m trying to do. And it’s just like having that upper level mental faculty of like, is this worth the effort of trying to fit in? Or is it okay to just like, not put in that effort? And am I gonna get judged for that? is like, Oh, isn’t people aren’t thinking about you as much as you are thinking about you. But I think that that has been an important lesson is like learning like, oh, I don’t have to go all in for everything like I can, I can choose what is more valuable to me to actually be present for and what I am allowed to step back from and be like, this isn’t this isn’t my thing. I don’t need to fit in here. I don’t need to contort myself, in order to be accepted. I can just accept myself and do something else.

Josué Cardona 29:19Right, exactly. Like if you’re looking for, ideally, whatever you’re looking for in that group you can find on your own. And by and by, like you’re if you’re looking for people to other people to fulfill your needs. That’s never that’s never a winning game. It’s hard. It’s really, really hard. But But, but yeah, that’s a that’s a tough one. And then it does not feel good, to not be authentic to have to sacrifice pieces of yourself to get that belonging. Right. And there’s a I’ve read about how many people that join

Link Keller 29:58to chyron text right now. is applying for jobs is hell like, oh my god, I have to do the fucking dance. Oh, no.

Josué Cardona 30:08But like, that depends to that depends also, right? Like, there’s a place that they want to hire you for being you and then because you play the game, they’re like, Oh no, this person is, you know, just like everybody else, we don’t want them right where you could have I don’t know if that depends, but um, was I saying?

Link Keller 30:28Sorry,

Josué Cardona 30:29I know, I lost it just not being yourself, what are they? Where was I going….damn

Marc Cuiriz 30:40I’m sure it’ll come back

Link Keller 30:40sorry i derailed us so hard

Marc Cuiriz 30:42I, you know, I think that with that I, I kind of man, when I when I was in high school and even even up until a couple years ago, I would kind of make the claim that unless I’m like completely and entirely by myself, I am never my true authentic self, I feel like there’s always at some point there to some degree that I am masking or I am changing my behaviors in some way, shape or form. So that way they are more desirable to whatever group or to whatever individual in which that I am interacting with or hanging out with anything like that. And again, like for the longest time, like you said, like, if when you can’t be your true authentic self, it sucks. Because you don’t feel like you’re being yourself, you feel like you’re you’re some weird version of yourself. Or if you’re doing it to try to fit in with a specific group. And then you do get accepted and you are brought in

Link Keller 31:56the imposter syndrome.

Marc Cuiriz 31:59Exactly, then then imposter syndrome comes in, or you it’s one of those things like okay, cool, you got the thing, but at what cost? What did you have to sacrifice and in a lot of cases, it’s you sacrifice yourself, because you’re now not yourself, these people know, a version of you, but it is not the true version. Or it might be a completely two, you might even feel if you’re being a completely different person, because it’s so against who you are. But yet you you know, you’re trying so hard to be accepted or to feel like you’ve fit into a particular group. And then that’s just leads to just constant anxiety. Or just really just feeling that like, Okay, I’m in, I’m in this group, but I don’t I don’t actually fit in, I feel like I just just it’s like a puzzle piece where it’s like, you can kind of fit it in if you really like adjust or you really like smoosh it in there. But in reality, it doesn’t fit.

Josué Cardona 33:05There’s a lot of nuance to this, because like, Okay, you’re code switching, right? You don’t talk, you don’t talk with your friends or you know, people in your community like you do at work. Maybe you do that on purpose, right? And it’s an understanding of like, I’m fine with that. Because, you know, I want to get paid. That’s the, this is roleplay. Right? We’re playing game, these are the rules of the game. That’s fine. Right? What I was saying before, and I was just slightly I don’t I don’t know why I lost my train of thought before was I was going to talk about religion, where I read that, right? They like people, like they survey people in who joined different religions go to church. And apparently, a lot of people don’t go because they believe they go because it’s a sense of community. Right? And then all of a sudden, you find yourself as part of a group that has very specific rules and expectations for you to be a part of that club. Right? And then so if you don’t even believe, and you’re like in a Pentecostal church, and you hate wearing long, long skirts, and you want to cut your hair, but you can’t because, you know, you want to have a place to hang out every Sunday. Like that could not, you know, that may feel not feel as good, but for some people that may be like, Oh, no, this is the price of admission cool. I’m in. and I know like to be with somebody to have to just like be a fake person or not not yourself in order to stay in a relationship to like, just like that to feel accepted by your parents. Like there’s all these different versions of it and degrees, where it can feel terrible, but sometimes it’s like, I don’t know, um, I don’t know. They’re paying me enough money or that’s cool. Or like, Oh, I’m gonna be You know, I’m going to be a celebrity. There’s a particular like personality that I don’t mind tapping into, you know, every now and then or being this person. Yeah, I don’t know, when I’m in consultant mode, I’m in consultant mode, right? When I’m in, when I’m playing video games with my friends, I’m in another mode. And, and that’s different, because there’s like, it feels like more control. And again, like, okay, these are the rules I used to tell my clients about, like, the rules are different at Grandma’s house than at your house, right? Like, you gotta You can’t touch stuff like, can’t curse, blah, blah, blah, right? Like at school, there are particular rules. And you might do it there, it’s like, you don’t want to get in trouble. Right? There are different rules. So kind of, once you start living outside of, you know, school, you find that, oh, there’s still rules for different places that you kind of adjust to, but when it gets into that personal life, when you’re starting to sacrifice, your identity, your your values, that can get very difficult to do. For the sake of again, either fitting in or blending in or not making noise. The idea of psychological safety at work where it’s like, I can’t be myself, I can’t speak up. I can’t say this. Not just because I’m gonna be rejected, but because I might lose my job. And if I lose my job, I can’t pay my rent, and my livelihood is at stake. And I have kids and dogs and cats and a mortgage. So you’re like, how much do you put up with to be able to keep these things and it can take a huge toll. Aight, Let’s go with media examples now.

Link Keller 36:48yeah

Marc Cuiriz 36:48Yeah. You? Yeah. Okay. So this is one that I kind of thought of. This is the one that kind of came to my head a little bit and like a little bit ago, and it’s a it’s a throwback here. My life as a teenage robot. Oh, you know, it’s XJ nine, or Jenny. She’s just trying to be an average teenager, going to high school doing all the typical teenager things, despite the fact that you know, she’s a robot, and she’s going to a school filled with just humans. And, you know, that’s her whole objectives, she just wants to fit in, she just wants to be a part of the society that is High School. And in her attempt, sometimes she can be sometimes like, ousted, or ostracized or something like that. And usually someone might call attention to it. And then, obviously, something happens, something goes awry. And then she’s able to kind of save the day. But even then, like, she still gets in trouble, she still has to deal with these consequences and things like that. But slowly, but surely, you know, she starts making friends. She, you know, develops her own, like sense of crushes, things like that. And, you know, she eventually starts to incorporate herself into the group that is high school, and that is just teenagers as a whole. But I think like, that was a show watching and kind of was like, oh, okay, like, this is what happens, like, this is someone who’s clearly very different. But yet, they’re also like, and you can see attempts when they try to blend in, or they’re trying to not be who they really are. And it fails, it just ends up causing more problems. So it’s better to just be who you are, and be true to yourself. Because that’s what’s gonna bring upon acceptance and things like that.

Josué Cardona 38:49Ideally,

Marc Cuiriz 38:50ideally, of course, that it’s a cartoon show, so they got to wrap it up in a nice bow sometimes,

Josué Cardona 38:56yeah, yeah. Okay.

Marc Cuiriz 38:59What do you got Josué?

Josué Cardona 39:00I’ve got a quirky one and then a couple of serious ones. Link Do you have do you have one

Link Keller 39:04I do I do. I it is a book called Legendborn by Tracy Deonn. And there is a sequel. It is about a young Black girl who goes to like early college and discovers a secrets Arthurian society that is very white. And it turns out that she has some of the magic that they do. However, she also has some magic from her mom. That is like an opposing magic system. And so she is trying to balance like becoming an adult, her mom died. And that’s like sort of the main thrust of the first book is her dealing with grief. and trying to like work through the crazy stuff that’s happening at school. But it’s really interesting because she, her, she goes to the school with her best friend who I believe is Asian. And so she, you know, these two young women of color and they are interfacing with a bunch of very white, very white guys. And this secret society that is like very much like, you do not belong here. And she’s like I do, because I have that magic, that means that you belong here. And they’re like, oh, I don’t know about that. I don’t like that. And part of it is obviously just basic racism, but a lot of it is the realization that, you know, they’re they’re focused on King Arthur and his his knights. And so the magic is passed down through lineage. And the realization is this, this black girl has white man magic, which means that rape happened. And so the combination of her trying to deal with this information and also everybody around her, like, putting that onto her and being like, and her just being like, you know why you’re so uncomfortable right now? Right? Like, you know, do you know, and it’s like, oh, it’s because one of your heroes is confirmed rapist, and I’m here and now we all have to deal with that. It’s a really fun book, I highly recommend it. The sequel is also very good. I think there’s going to be a third one, maybe next year. But I think it’s a really, really good coming of age story, I love the arthurian tale stuff fits in very well with this. And then they call her mom’s magic is that they, they call it root. And so getting some of the like African mysticism and culture also brought in there and sort of combining them within her and her feelings of like, wanting to fit in and be accepted, but also not not wanting to fit in and be accepted because these people have bad beliefs and are willing to do abhorrent things in order to hold up their historical values and stuff like that. And so it’s I think, is a really good story for this topic of like, figuring out how to authentically Be yourself and and accept who you are and how you fit into a space and then realizing like, I can change my shape to fit in this space better, or I can change the space in order to fit me better. And I think that that’s very cool stuff.

Josué Cardona 42:56Camelot so white. Yeah. Yeah, okay. I read. A few weeks ago, I mentioned a book that I called, I said it was called Babel. I’ve always said the word Babel for like the Tower of Babel, but I’m listening to the audiobook, and it’s a British narration. And so in the UK, they call it they say Babel, instead of Babel. I saw a tik tok of the author saying

Link Keller 43:21a lickle bri’ish innit?

Josué Cardona 43:23Just a little, and I saw the author, like it’s mentioning that like, Oh, my book just won an award in the UK. And she was like, you know, my book Babel there they call it Babel. I was like, Oh, okay.

Link Keller 43:36that’s funny

Josué Cardona 43:37So in this book, The main character is half Chinese. And a big part of the book is how he can pass just enough as a white person to kind of be accepted into society. But he and he, he wants that, right. Like he has a great life because of it. And it isn’t until he sees that other people who other people in China specifically, who are getting just abused and completely exploited. And he is a part of it, because now he’s part of this, this, you know, white supremacist machine, that he starts thinking about how like, oh, like if I just looked a little bit different, like, that’s what I am though, but you just don’t see it that way. So you treat me a little differently. But then he realizes that he’s also being exploited, like no one actually cares. But he’s been he’s been kind of conditioned and trained to fit in and completely deny his roots in the park, where he came from. It’s something that goes through the book a lot and there are other people in the in the story from other countries who are also dealing with the same thing and in way, they also find comfort in the fact that they are not like the other people, but it’s about how, you know, they have to conform. Until with with, with the system, right in order to, to just be able to go to school and get and get, you know, like, live a good life, which is something that a lot of people can can relate to. And I read another, I’m doing the, like the Goodreads reading challenge. I put, I put one book per year book per week this year, right, so 52, and I’m a few books behind. So I decided to read a couple novellas to catch up. So I started reading the murderbot diaries by martha wells

Link Keller 45:44Hell yeah!! I was just gonna say, Hey, if you want to get through a whole bunch real fast, I have some books for you.

Josué Cardona 45:48Yep. Have you read them?

Link Keller 45:50I have, they’re great. I love them.

Josué Cardona 45:52Right? So so like, I’m on the third one now. And so murder bot the protagonist, and he’s he’s a robot that’s like, he’s a security robot. And he looks like he has armor and like this mask and stuff. But he’s built on like organic matter, all these robots are built on organic matter. So they, they do have human features, right? Like there is like kind of like a humanoid body there. And he he is very conscious of like, how he doesn’t want to, like spend time with these people. He just wants to do his job and not and not make not make any any any waves. Right? So he like he dims his his helmet, right? And so they don’t see his face. And then there’s a moment where like, they see that he has a face and it’s just so weird for him because now he has to act like a person. And I love because it’s you know, it’s first person perspective. So you’re hearing his thoughts about fitting in and, and a lot like what we’re talking about before marc, like how like, I don’t want to fit in with these people. I just, I just want to be invisible. And he can get away with it for the most part, but he can do it all the time. And it’s just great. And also just side note, one of my favorite things about those books is that he’s constantly talking about the media, as in like, he’s got a collection of media. He’s he’s watching me like he loves watching TV, and shows and soap operas, and basically stuff like that. And so he’s he’s always like, Ah, I’ve got this long trip ahead of me. Thankfully, I downloaded 100 episodes of media. And he uses media as like currency with other robots to like, get right it’s great. It’s fun

Link Keller 47:32find it so interesting that you are using he him pronouns for murder bot.

Josué Cardona 47:39Hmm. He hasn’t mentioned at any I keep saying he they referred to him.

Link Keller 47:47Other people referred to murder bot as its or they. In my internal head I went from I was using she her in the beginning and then shifted to they them because I was like, Yeah, it’s fun. I like that. But they don’t it doesn’t specify this is a agender murder bot. But yeah, I do think it’s such a great series. But what a what a hook of having, like, oh, like murderous security bot that hacked their own system so that they don’t have, you know, shackles, forcing them to do whatever their corporate overlord says, and what are they doing with this freedom? I’m binging my space operas. Thank you. And I’ll do it again. like, okay, yeah, All right. Yeah, hell yeah. But yeah, those are really choice that actually is such a great segue recommendation for you for more novellas. This trilogy of books called Binti

Josué Cardona 48:49how do you spell that?

Link Keller 48:49B I N T. I. I cannot remember the author’s name off the top of my head. But they’re all like 100 120 pages perfect. I read all three of them in three days. I finished them it was great is about a young woman coming from a culture that is very exclusive. They don’t like outsiders. They like they’re very much like you. You’re born here. You grew up here. You serve the community you die here, but she wants to go to school. And she gets accepted into the like Space University basically, and on route to go to Space University, accidentally. The people that her people are opposed to have an ongoing intergalactic war with like jellyfish, aliens, and the jellyfish aliens show up and kill everybody on board except for her. And she’s just like, oh well shit, this sucks. But ends up being very much like because of her outsider position, she is more able to connect with the to opposing forces as sort of an intermediary. Really fun book books, I think you should add them to your your list. But it’s also another story that has a lot to do with fitting in and finding your place within novel spaces.

Josué Cardona 50:18No. Okay, thank you.

Link Keller 50:20pun intended. It wasn’t it wasn’t actually intended. I said it. And then I was like, that’s a good pun. I should I should take credit for it. It wasn’t accidental at all. [whispers] It was it was accidental.

Josué Cardona 50:37I thought I thought of two more. And these are, these are more jokey. But the more I think about them, again, anything, anything is game in GT. You never know what you’ll relate to. So one of them is the Marvel show Secret Invasion, it’s all about fitting in. It’s about shape shifting aliens infiltrating the world for different reasons. There’s only one episode out as of this recording. So I’m curious about it, but I’m sure that there’ll be some stuff there. And because, like, you know, like, wearing a mask for so long, like it can affect you, as in Tropic Thunder, a great example of

Link Keller 51:20you know, I have not actually seen that movie, but it is, like, of my age, demographics. Very funny that you brought that

Josué Cardona 51:29up. But it’s funny, because some people talk about the movie as like, oh, it’s messed up that Robert Downey Jr. was in blackface, but like, the whole point in the movie, is that he’s a white actor in blackface, and like, how he is just like, his identity is completely, like, all affected by the movie is a comedy. But there’s still like, like, I think his performance, right? It was like, very recognized for like, someone who is really struggling with like, their, their sense of identity, because they were put in a position where they had to play this character, and and what that means and all of that. Anyway, so that’s kind of jokey answer, but I’m sure that a lot of people can kind of relate to that, to kind of the, the experience has been canted out in the movie, especially when you in his case, it’s like Robert Downey Jr. in like, literal blackface, right? But some of us straddle, like, in between different different parts, right? Like, sometimes I’m white, sometimes I’m Hispanic, it depends where I’m at and who I’m talking to, you know, and like, I have to take different positions, depending on on what’s going on. And there’s tons of stories that deal with that kind of stuff. And like, like bable, does that even more. Murderbot does surprisingly do this a lot? it is really good. You know, link, I was thinking, I’m listening to it on audiobook. So just like a male narrator,

Link Keller 52:57then that makes so much sense. That’s it, that explains it. that’s the answer

Josué Cardona 53:01there’s like, but there was like, a sexual appendage. Consideration modification piece, right. And like, it seems to and the names that it has, it’s like, it’s interesting. I hadn’t even thought about about this, except for this is interesting. Yeah. I’m gonna keep that in mind now as I can I just yeah,

Link Keller 53:22it was just very interesting. It makes 100% sense. I was like, you’re listening to a man read it to you. So yeah, he him? He said. Yeah, yeah. And I just I just read the book I borrowed from the library support your local library. But yeah, I think I yeah, I really liked the murder bot diaries. They’re they’re really fun.

Josué Cardona 53:42Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 53:44You guys are talking about books and I don’t know why I didn’t think about this earlier. But

Josué Cardona 53:50Percy Jackson, here we go.

Marc Cuiriz 53:52You already know

Link Keller 53:53favorite book series, Assassin’s Creed

Josué Cardona 53:55you’ve got your Percy Jackson face on.

Marc Cuiriz 53:57yes, yes. But but believe it or not, this is it’s not. It’s in Percy Jackson’s world. But this is a this is a story that kind of gets spread out from the third book of the original series, all the way through to the the sequel series until the very end, and the character is Nico D’Angelo. So he’s introducing the third book and you find out that he’s a child of Hades. So like that plays into its own thing. But his whole character development and story is, Hades is one of the gods that you know he’s he’s not accepted by the Olympians. He’s not part of the Olympian Council. He’s only allowed to come up to Olympus two times a year for the winter and summer solstices so for the most part, he is rejected, condemned to the underworld descending They’re still his children. For his demigod children, they’re the same way from all the other demigods, they tend to be more rejected, or they’re sort of not as quick to be easily accepted into the group because of their lineage. So Nico carries that with him throughout the whole story, he you like when he pops up, it’s always like, he looks like he’s been kind of like he’s been through the wringer. He’s been on his own, he’s been wandering, spending more time with the dead than he is with the living, because that’s just who he is. And then in the sequel series, you introduce the Roman camp, and the Greek camp and everything like that, and then their conflict. And you you learn that Nico has been in contact with both camps. Because in Rome, Pluto, who is more accepted among the Romans. So you start seeing him struggle, because he feels like he doesn’t belong in either camps and either families, he he’s condemned to be alone. And then at the end of the whole series, he ends up finding out and learning that he has a family with both camps. He’s accepted amongst both groups, both the Romans and the Greeks. And so like, while there isn’t a whole lot, like dedicated to just his story, I mean, there, there’s chapters and things like that. And there’s a couple of books that were you see his point of view of things, but for the most part, he just kind of pops in and out because of that outsider persona that he kind of has, and that he’s kind of thrown upon himself. And then seeing that change and develop as he grows and becomes more mature, because when you meet him, he’s like, 11-12 years old. And then you see him kind of grow up and start to gain that acceptance because of the things that he’s doing. And it’s more so now you’re looking and judging him as a person and as an individual, rather than who his godly parent is. I know he has his own book with him and his boyfriend, and it’s adorable,

Josué Cardona 57:11cute for them.

Link Keller 57:13What I think YA lot of YA, is about discovering your identity and learning how to fit in with social groups. And I think that there’s so much good content in there.

Josué Cardona 57:26Coming of Age,

Link Keller 57:27coming of age, it’s that developmental level is you’ve sort of just started to figure out who you are is like, Okay, well, what do I do with this? It’s like, Oh, you got to put it in social groups around other people like, oh, that’s new. How do I do that? Um, but yeah, well, I haven’t read the divergence books. But I did watch the movies, which were okay. enjoyable. But very much like main theming is like, being different is valuable. Because the society is so much about like, you must fit in. And being the person who’s like, well, I don’t is like, oh, that’s actually is a good and useful thing and exactly what we need. And I think that that’s a really important story for young people to be engaging with wherever they find it, but often in YA books. I think I personally very much resonate with stories that are about not changing yourself to fit in but changing the systems so that they have space for you is very much my, my jam is the like, yeah, destroy, destroy the structures that exist that oppress you? Hell yeah.

Josué Cardona 58:41I have a nonfiction book recommendation that kind of falls into that. It’s called range. And it’s all about how in real life you can be kind of, it’s more about being a generalist, but the idea of like, you can come to a company that, you know, without an engineers, and you’re an artist, and it’s like, that’s valuable, or you excel or whatever, like you’re an athlete, and then like, you bring that perspective into this place, and it’s from a business perspective, but it’s, um, I think it kind of plays with that as well. Less young adult fitting in and more like adulting for sure. If you need a good book on that, it’s called range. Have question marc, just related to Percy Jackson, something I didn’t know or are there different, like mythological pantheons in the story, like not just a Greek ones.

Marc Cuiriz 59:37So the sequel series, it goes over the Greek and the Romans. So the Greeks are on the East Coast and the Romans are the West Coast. And that’s, I can get into the story a whole nother time there.

Josué Cardona 59:56So it’s a yes.

Marc Cuiriz 59:56So and then and then in the And then the other series that he does that they’re all set in the same universe, so they all coexist. So the Norse pantheon exists, the Egyptian pantheon exists.

Josué Cardona 1:00:09Awesome. Okay.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:11Yeah, I’m sure you could have all the other different pantheons exist in that universe.

Josué Cardona 1:00:15No, that’s cool. That’s cool. Yeah, cuz that’s what I love about the God of War, like the new series. Right, right. It’s like, let’s, let’s play with another one. Right. Also, last thing related to this, but that’s it. This topic is, there’s a show on Netflix called record of Ragnarok. Okay, it’s an anime. And the whole show is just a tournament arc. between gods from from across, like, the whole span of the thing, right? And I’m talking about everything from where,

Link Keller 1:00:46is this the one where like, Buddha and Jesus fight each other? I might be thinking of a different one

Josué Cardona 1:00:54I mean, I mean, yes, yes. And yes, kind of right. Like you’ve got you’ve got like, Poseidon fighting Adam, from the Bible. And Zeus is sitting there you know, and he’s got like, you know, like Jack the Ripper is filing and fighting Hercules don’t ask me like Jack the Ripper is like one of the gods or stuff like it is. It is a crazy show. But it’s just so cool to see like all the gods from everything all in the same place. And there’s just a giant tournament arch for the for this for humanity. There’s like a for a good there’s two seasons on Netflix. It’s pretty good. Okay, that’s all I got. Anybody else any closing thoughts?

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:40Be yourself. Be yourself and and the group that will best fit who you are, we’ll just we’ll either form around you or it’ll find you, it’ll find you.

Josué Cardona 1:01:56I’ll add if you’re not being yourself, think about why that is. And that sometimes there are valid reasons for it. Because it may not be safe to be yourself. So just be careful out there. And you know, yeah, find don’t go alone on this journey. You know, try to try to hopefully have support whether it’s somebody you can talk to about it or somebody can be yourself with so that you’re not constantly in, you know, like Robert Downey Jr. You don’t know who you are anymore.

Link Keller 1:02:33If all else fails, just be silly little clown.

Josué Cardona 1:02:39Just just be a scroll.

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:42Just just be funny. That’s it.

Josué Cardona 1:02:47Okay, all right. Well, thank you for for joining us for this episode. If you are looking for your people, your tribe wanna try some things out. Want to want to meet an eclectic group of people check out our community spaces. links in the show notes to all those for more Geek Therapy visit geek therapy.org Remember to geek out and do good. Do you want to say a different version or anything new? Marc? no?

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:20Listen, I did the intro. Okay.

Link Keller 1:03:24little steps are fine, people. Small Steps count. It’s good.

Josué Cardona 1:03:30We gotta redo everything. remember to geek out and do Good. We’ll be back next week

Link Keller 1:03:36mbuhbye

Josué Cardona 1:03:37Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023)
• Pokémon
• Dungeons and Dragons TTRPG
• XJ-9 / Jenny Wakeman / My Life as a Teenage Robot
• Legendborn by Tracy Deonn
• Babel: An Arcane History by R. F. Kuang
• The Murderbot Diaries (series) by Martha Wells
• Binti (series) by Nnedi Okorafor
• Secret Invasion
• Tropic Thunder (2008)
• Percy Jackson and the Olympians (series) by Rick Riordan
• Divergent (series) by Veronica Roth
• Range: Why Generalists Triumph in A Specialized World by David Epstein
• God of War (video game series)
• Record of Ragnarok (manga/anime series)

Conversation Topics:

* Rejection* Change* Consequences* Cultural representation* Death* Difficult emotions* Fear* Feeling alone* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Making new friends* Moral dilemma* Standing up for oneself* Sacrifice for others* Taking responsibility for one’s actions

Relatable Experience:

* Acceptance* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Fear/Anxiety* New Life Event (New Rules)* Moving* Trauma* Masking

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Find us at www.GeekTherapy.org | @GeekTherapy | Lara: @GeekTherapist | Link: @CHICKENDINOSAUR | Josué: @JosueACardona

Ask us anything through the Question Queue and we’ll answer on the show: geektherapy.org/qq

Josué Cardona 0:11Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined today by Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:22Hey,

Josué Cardona 0:23Link Keller.

Link Keller 0:25Yo,

Josué Cardona 0:26And Marc Cuiriz

Marc Cuiriz 0:28Hello.

Josué Cardona 0:29Hello, Team. It’s my turn again, is it? is it my turn again?.

Lara Taylor 0:34It is, because you decided to give us a topic.

Josué Cardona 0:38Because nobody else came up with a topic. So my, my, my topic came to me when we when I was playing, small little, little indie game called Legend of Zelda tears at the kingdom. never and never heard of it. Yeah, no, it’s good. It’s good. So there will be no spoilers here. But I had to kind of what I call this not a, I had a realization. So I’m playing this game. So for context, this is the sequel to breath of the wild and I played, I played about 150 hours a Breath of the Wild through two playthroughs. I liked the game a lot. And one thing that I liked about the game was how you kind of had this very open world and you weren’t sure if you could climb that mountain, or if you could get this far and get to a particular thing. And so I’m playing tears of the kingdom. And I’m doing exactly that, again. It’s like, oh, my god, can I climb the mountain? Can I do this? Can I make it this way, I’m gonna try this. And I’m enjoying it. And after a play session, I stopped. And I thought, wait a minute. This is a sequel. There’s like 100 different ways that I could have done this. Because there there are all these new tools that weren’t available in the first game. And even though the game is teaching me to use them, and sometimes even requiring me to use them, to get from point A to point B, I’m so used to the way I used to do it, that I just did not actually use any of those things. So of course, it got me thinking how, how we do that in real life. That’s like, oh, I go to therapy, or I go to the gym, or I want to go to school, do trainings at work, and you don’t remember the things that you just learned. And you keep doing things. Like you were doing them before. Like you go back to old habits and you start like, why does that happen? What has happened to him? Why am I not using all the new features and Zelda? Why am I not using all of the amazing things that I’ve learned in therapy over the years?

Lara Taylor 2:57Because new habits are hard to build.

Josué Cardona 3:00get out of here

Lara Taylor 3:00And we’d like to be in our comfort zone and do things the way we know.

Josué Cardona 3:05Oh, explain that to me. I don’t like it. I don’t get it.

Lara Taylor 3:12I don’t like it either. I can explain it, but I don’t like it. I also I do like some new things in games. I like new games and things like that. And I will get to the real life piece of it. But like I’m playing Jedi survivor and I keep getting new stances and new outfits and things like that. Nope, I want Cal to look the way he was on. Like the first cutscene I changed the color of his outfit to be more colors I like but like I don’t I don’t mess around with all the hair and stuff. I like the the two lightsabers and the double bladed lightsaber. I don’t use the new stances. Yeah, I like to use the things I’m used to. Partially because I know I’m more efficient at it and I know what I’m doing.

Josué Cardona 4:03But these new tools are we’re more powerful and we can do more.

Lara Taylor 4:07They are sometimes they are sometimes they’re not right. Like if I were to try and teach myself to type on a keyboard the way you’re supposed to at school. I would be way slower than I am right now with my master typing skills.

Josué Cardona 4:21but wait, how do you type?

Link Keller 4:25elaborate,

Lara Taylor 4:26elaborate, my hands go that place where you’re the starting position you’re supposed to with your pointer finger on the little dots right on the F and the J But my fingers don’t go to the ones that exactly the way that they say whatever. Like I don’t know. I can’t tell you exactly which ones go where but I just type and it’s not the way that they teach you in school. Exactly.

Josué Cardona 4:51Well this was backwards that this one is like if you learn the right if you the way that you do

Lara Taylor 4:57the new way is faster.

Josué Cardona 4:58Yeah, and then you stopped.

Lara Taylor 5:00they stopped teaching it.

Josué Cardona 5:01No, but then you stopped. It just started doing the old way. That’s my life.

Lara Taylor 5:07Okay, I guess that makes sense. But yeah, we like to do the things that we are used to, because we are creatures of habit. And it is really hard to build routines and do new things. Because it’s not what we know, and not what we’re used to. And our brains fall back on those old patterns, because that’s the neural pathways that have been firing, right, and it takes a long time to switch to new pathways. I think I have to say that at least once a day, at my work sometimes five times a day

Josué Cardona 5:39to yourself?

Lara Taylor 5:40to clients

Link Keller 5:41three to clients, two to yourself.

Lara Taylor 5:43And to remind myself both that I also need, I take time to change that my habits, but also that my clients take time to change their habits, and that it is a process.

Josué Cardona 5:56So even, like that makes sense to me. From a behavioral standpoint, right, for certain things, but what about, Does the same apply to your thoughts? Like to to thinking? Does it does the same? revolve around traumatic responses to, you know, all these things? Does the same apply?

Lara Taylor 6:23I mean, I feel like it does. I mean, we’re talking behaviorally, but thoughts and thoughts and traumatic responses and all those like anxiety pathways, that’s all going through your brain too. So.

Josué Cardona 6:38So but so. But what why do we so we develop the new habit?

Lara Taylor 6:47And it takes time

Josué Cardona 6:49why doesn’t it stick around? Why does it go away?

Lara Taylor 6:50it doesn’t stick around because you have to keep doing it to get it to stick around. But then that means you have to keep doing it, even though you want to do the old ones

Josué Cardona 6:58What if you don’t want to do the old one? That’s the problem. You don’t want to do the old one, you want to do the new one? Why don’t we Why don’t we go back to the old?

Lara Taylor 7:03See, I want to do the old one.

Link Keller 7:09It comes down to it’s like neurological resources, right? It costs more energy to do the new thing. Not necessarily because it is more difficult, but because it is new, your brain needs to pay more attention to it.

Lara Taylor 7:25Right

Link Keller 7:26I think a great example would be like when you are driving a route to work or school or whatever. And you’re driving the same route all the time, like there comes a point where your brain is not engaging in the drive above the very baseline bottom level, and you just appear in the parking lot where you’re going, you’re like, wow, I don’t remember actually driving here, but here I am. And so if you change your path, you have to be way more focused and your brain is way more engaged in that is more resource intensive. And so if you’re not being like, really on top of reinforcing the change, your brain is like, my whole bag is doing as many shortcuts as I can. And I know that this one is shorter than whatever the heck you’re trying to do right now. So I’m just gonna swing, swing over into the old habit. I’m gonna save you a couple of batteries, so you can play more video games or something.

Lara Taylor 8:28Which is precisely why we ended up going on autopilot. If we’re going the same direction to go to a friend’s houses we are to work and it’s like, oh, we drive the path to work all the time. So that’s where we must be going not to the friend’s house. Yeah,

Link Keller 8:43I’ve done that a couple of times. You take take a freeway exit that goes to one place you go to regularly it’s like this time I’m going to the DMV. That’s like the next block down is like, No, you’re in the parking lot is a place you always because what? Dammit.

Lara Taylor 9:00that’s not where I’m meant to go.

Link Keller 9:02Now you have that shame moment of like, Gosh, I really hope nobody’s paying attention to the weirdo who just drove into the parking lot and then looked really annoyed and then turned around and drove away. Is everybody judging me right now? Oh, God.

Josué Cardona 9:14Yes. So

Lara Taylor 9:18It might not have been then, but Josué is definitely judging you now.

Josué Cardona 9:22Yes, for sure. I’m gonna Judge Marc now.

Marc Cuiriz 9:27Please.

Josué Cardona 9:28Now, Marc, I’ve have a question for you. And Lara, I guess because, you know, when when y’all have seen clients lately, how often Like yeah Lara you said every day. You have to mention this, but you You’ve both done, like inpatient settings. Right. And so how often do you see like, how often do you see a client suffering from something doing way better for a while and then falling back right? To the old behaviors, which, which again, are not. They’re not helpful. Maybe they are comfortable, you know, just just

Link Keller 10:13Or it’s like they were useful in a certain context. But that context no longer exists. Right? A lot of trauma responses are like that, where it’s like, we don’t want to shame people for doing a behavior that allowed them to survive. But when you’re not in that survival state anymore, that’s harming you. So how do we change it?

Marc Cuiriz 10:36Yeah, I think for, for me, since I really do worry, listen. So right now I’m working with that inpatient level, I do get, I do get some repeaters, every now and again, and there’s a couple times and I kind of joke around with them about it. But a lot of times to what I’m kind of seeing is, it’s not that they don’t need to act in that certain way anymore, or react that certain way or behave a certain way anymore, it’s that, unfortunately, for us, nine times out of 10, when they’re discharging, because we’re just for stabilization, they’re still going back to those same things, and they don’t have the resources necessarily available to them to create a change in their environment. And so their brain kind of goes back into that instinctual mode. And then they start doing the, they start re engaging in their trauma responses, because to them, they’re still in that survival mode. And so for them, that’s what’s working, but it’s also not working, and then they end up coming back because either a family member gets fed up with it, because they’re not realizing that they might be the problem. Or, you know, it’s again, like they it, they take that response, and they go a little too far. And, you know, then it becomes a danger or a concern, and they know that they need to come back. And, you know, I try my best to try to set them up for that path of success or fight to find a way to make it work. And the unfortunate thing is that sometimes I just can’t. And then that kind of falls into my own thought patterns and things like that. So everything that I learned in therapy about saying it’s not my fault, because it’s not, you know, it’s not like I’m purposely doing it that goes right out the window, and I go right back into people pleasing behavior. And I just want to make everybody happy, please stop being mad, stop being sad, just be happy, please. And then I often have to catch myself. Sometimes when I’m in that self degrading talk, or that or I’m getting too hard on myself and be like, Hold on, wait a minute, we learned how to not do this. So let’s stop doing it.

Josué Cardona 12:55Why did you stop doing it before? Why do you keep doing it?

Marc Cuiriz 13:00you know, it’s what I like to call my ultra instinct mode, where I’m just not thinking at all

Josué Cardona 13:07got it got it

Marc Cuiriz 13:08about my thoughts about my actual thinking process, I’m not thinking about my thinking, I’m not meta thinking here. It just, it just happens. And it just kind of falls back into, it’s almost like a, like a subroutine where it’s a process that’s constantly running in the background. But I’m not paying any sort of active attention to it. So I’m not recognizing that it’s still there at times. And it’s only when I start trying to figure something out that I start finding it just randomly somewhere in the crevices of my brain. And now it’s at the front and then once it’s called once I have brought it to my attention, then I can start dealing with it. But I think ultimately, it’s kind of always like a background process. It’s just constantly running. I can’t find it’s like a like I lose a tab. You can’t find it. You’re trying to close everything and you just can’t find it anywhere.

Link Keller 14:02I like I like that metaphor. My My mind went immediately to like, why is my computer chugging so hard? Let me just go to the Task Manager. It’s like why am I running 80 versions of Spotify right now? Why is that happening? I’m not even listening to music. Just force force quit everything.

Josué Cardona 14:22why don’t you just restart the computer, defrag, rewrite the code

Link Keller 14:26that’s the unfortunate thing it’s very hard to do a force restart on your own brain.

Marc Cuiriz 14:34I can’t just like

Link Keller 14:34fresh drivers, like what is going on here?

Marc Cuiriz 14:37I unfortunately cannot just go to sleep and the middle of the workday and just collapse on the floor and just do a hard reboot.

Lara Taylor 14:46But Why not Marc?

Link Keller 14:48I wish TV was real where when anybody bonks you on the head with any item it immediately knocks you unconscious for 30 seconds to two hours but you’re always perfectly fine afterwards I would love that

Lara Taylor 15:03no concussion

Link Keller 15:04to be real. I would love to get just bonked on the head. Just knock me out for a little bit

Josué Cardona 15:07would you like to see stars or birds?

Marc Cuiriz 15:10Ooh, I think I see stars

Josué Cardona 15:12I think I’d be a bird person.

Link Keller 15:16Can I? Can I pick the bird? Or is it just like basic?

Josué Cardona 15:19I don’t know how this works.

Link Keller 15:21it there a bird upgrade?

Lara Taylor 15:22Is it like, Roger. Who Framed Roger Rabbit. Birds?

Link Keller 15:27I want Who Framed Roger Rabbit? I want Roger rabbits running around my head.

Lara Taylor 15:31Okay. okay

Marc Cuiriz 15:32I like that. I like that.

Josué Cardona 15:34It’s your Bonk. So, of course, I’m asking all these questions, right? Because because it is, it is so frickin hard to to give these things up. Especially right. I mean, it all goes back to trauma. I was back to your parents. Right, that early programming is so so hard. It’s so frustrating. I mean, we wouldn’t have we wouldn’t have. Some of us here wouldn’t have jobs if it weren’t because of because of this?

Link Keller 16:08Yeah,

Josué Cardona 16:10who knows what ya’ll’d be doing? It is it is it is incredible. And I I was just so surprised to have that feeling in the game as well. Right? Because it’s not even. It’s like you forget that you have these tools. Right? And and I think, Lara you I mean, you know, you, you made it to the punch line, like within the first 30 seconds. You’re not repeating, right that you need to repeat this stuff, you need to do it over and over again. You need to I want to stay away from the word habit. In a sense, just but right, but you’re not wrong.

Lara Taylor 16:49Like, yeah, teachers talk about, like, kids need to hear something at least three times to remember it. More than that. Adults need to hear it. And I get so many clients who are like, I know, we’re talking about the same thing that we talked about last week, or we’ve talked about this a month ago, I know we got to talk like why are we talking about it again. Because we got to talk about it as many times as you need to talk about it to get it in like to soak it in, right and be able to hear it in a way and I try to say things differently each time. But have the same meaning. So that it goes in and oh, now I’m going to do it a little differently. And so we got to practice and there are people that come to me and we need to check in every week about like, Well, how did it go trying that? Okay, I didn’t do it. Well, why didn’t you do it? Let’s take a look at that and see what’s getting in the way. How do we help you not have those things in the way? What can we change about the environment to do it differently?

Josué Cardona 17:50Yeah, I mean, there’s

Lara Taylor 17:52so what’s getting in your way Josué?

Josué Cardona 17:56So right, like, there’s the the research that shows like, oh, it takes like 19 days to build a new habit. Right. But like, that? I don’t think that applies to everything.

Lara Taylor 18:11No,

Marc Cuiriz 18:12no.

Link Keller 18:12More recent, the, when I was in school, they said it was 21 days to make or break a habit. But the research is like it can be like nine days to like 250 days, it depends on what it is. Right? There are there are certain behaviors that are easier to change than others.

Lara Taylor 18:36And habits are supposedly easier. And it’s going to depend on what it is. But when you do things incrementally, and not like I’m just going in and doing a 10 mile run today, every day, like it’s not going to happen. It’s not going to happen, you got to do like, I’m going to run around the block. And then I’m going to run two blocks. And then I’m gonna run three blocks.

Josué Cardona 18:59There’s that’s interesting, right? Because that requires like, your body just couldn’t do it just because you want it to do it. Your body can do it.

Lara Taylor 19:06And it’s running as a simple example. But like, it’s the same kind of thing like support like I’ve had someone told me they needed for flossing, they had to remember to like floss like, once in the morning, right? And then it’ll only half of their mouth or whatever, before they could get to the full mouth, that kind of thing. And then they got to the habit where they floss twice a day.

Josué Cardona 19:29Yeah.

Lara Taylor 19:30I don’t know if that stuck still. So

Link Keller 19:32yeah, I mean, I think the running still works because it’s like, we spend so much time trying to separate out our brains from our bodies, but our brain is our body. And there are things that it can’t do the first time it needs to train to get good at it. So I think that the running is a good example. But to tie back to your original starting thing with tears of the kingdom My 65 plus hours I have put into this game so far. And I do think part of it was that I played Breath of the Wild again, fairly recently, last year. And so like that is closer in the forefront of my mind versus, you know, playing it in 2017 when it came out. But I was the same way Josué, I kept reverting to the, the things that I would do in Breath of the Wild to solve problems, I was doing it again. And it really was just like the first I want to say like, 20 hours of playing that game, I had to be legitimately reminded that the recall skill, and the Ascend skill existed, like, every time I was like, Well, what does the stupid dungeon even want from me and it’s like, use your power you dingus! oh right, a duh. But once I got, you know, 20 ish hours in, it has become easier for me to start to recognize, like, oh, can this this is asking me to use the ASCEND power, I get it. But what really like pushed me over the edge was I started playing with it with like, I went into a situation with the intention of like, I am going to whatever is behind this door, I am going to figure out how to solve it with recall, and doing something really silly and fun. And having that like, you know, things that are enjoyable are more strongly positively reinforced. And so having that experience of just farting around and doing something really silly and successful. My brain was like, Okay, you remember recall now I’m still ascend, I’m still every so often I’m like, How do I get out of this cave? It’s like ascend! Just ascend! Like, alright, right right right right still working on that one a little bit. But yes, it was definitely, like repetition is straight up is like I put in so many hours in this game at this point is like now I’m like, Okay, now I get what this game is asking of me. And encouraging me to experiment with

Josué Cardona 22:16there’s, I love that you said I remember recall.

Link Keller 22:20Remember recall? Oh my God, how could I forget? What was the name of that power? Again? I just I can’t recall.

Josué Cardona 22:28Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 22:31That one was for Nina, love ya.

Josué Cardona 22:32So there are different versions of this, right? Like the the running thing, the muscle thing, right? It’s like you can, there’s a cognitive piece of it, where it’s like, the actual learning. And that goes into the memory stuff. And to recall, there’s a theory of learning called spaced repetition, where it kind of looks at like, Oh, this is how long your brain can go like to to make something stick in your brain, it starts it starts fading away after you learn it the first time. So within a certain amount of time, you have to recall that to be able to, for it to stay in your memory for a little longer. And then, and then the time between, then the second time, and when it starts fading again, is a little longer. So within there towards the end of that you want to recall again, and that gap keeps growing. But it’s you’ll never reach a point where it’s like, it’s it’s stamped forever, right? It’s always there’s

Link Keller 23:33that thing that like, oh, you never forget how to ride a bike. And I’m like, if you go several years without riding a bike, that first time you get back on is harrowing. It’s really it’s not as rough as the original time you learned. But it’s not as easy as the last time you rode a bike.

Josué Cardona 23:50And people people forget languages, right? And I don’t mean like, Oh, you took it language in high school, you know, for three years.

Lara Taylor 23:56no, They forget their own language.

Josué Cardona 23:57Yeah, you were born in a country. You spoke that language for years as a child. And then after you go, there are adults who move and stop speaking their own language, and then they just don’t remember it. They lose it.

Lara Taylor 24:10We had a camp counselor come from I can’t remember which country this counselor was from that. There was a bunch of us interns that were hanging out with the international staff in San Francisco. And we went to a restaurant from their country. And the waitress was like, your parents are gonna be very mad at you when you get home. You have an American accent. Yeah, we forget things. Yeah, I don’t do them over and over and over again. So

Marc Cuiriz 24:39with with the language piece, I actually minored in German. And I can barely remember the language. I dedicated a substantial amount of time to studying this culture and this language. And I can probably hold a very basic conversation and now I’m going to be expected to speak it cuz you want

Josué Cardona 25:01say one word say one word

Marc Cuiriz 25:04what word is specifically trying to what?

Lara Taylor 25:10Marc, I only took two years in high school of German and I can remember counting a random word here and there, maybe there’s no conversation, and I can recite a poem. That’s about it. So

Link Keller 25:24I’m gonna Google how to say ‘a word’ in German.

Marc Cuiriz 25:26Oh, that’s [says a word in German]. It’s how you say it.

Link Keller 25:31I think that’s so funny that the poem, like I think, but there’s there’s definitely something in there. Where if if

Lara Taylor 25:38it was repetition of a children’s poem

Link Keller 25:40the repetition, If there’s a rhyming aspect to it, like those things will stick? Like, I took French in middle and high school, even though stupid, I should have taken Spanish I was living in California, real Yeah, bozos hours. But I took French. But in one year in middle school, they did. Like for the, I guess it was sixth grade. They did like a rotation elective class, where you would do like two or three weeks in different electives, so you could try them out. And so I took I took, you know, three weeks of Spanish in that and we learned Head, shoulders, knees and toes in Spanish. And I still remember, I know that I’m not in any way good at Spanish. Or even bad in Spanish. I’m zero at Spanish. But I know how to sing Head, shoulders, knees and toes in Spanish because the like singing and the rhyming and it connected to a song I already knew. So there was like a shortcut for my brain to save that. Because it’s like, Oh, I know what that means. I know the pattern. So I can save that. And we can just file it right next to English version. And we’ll just save it forever. It’s like, great. I don’t know if I need that. But thank you. Thank you brain.

Marc Cuiriz 27:01Yeah, I can probably hold basic conversations. And there’s like two or three songs in German that I could probably say, like actual songs and like, children’s songs. But yeah, like, like, for me, it was also the same thing, like I grew up around Spanish. didn’t retain a single word of it. And then to stick it to my parents who were begging me to take Spanish I was like, German. And yeah, so again, it’s one of those things where, because I didn’t really have anybody to practice it with. I’ve, I’ve lost it. And I spent two weeks in Germany too. So I like had a really good chance to like solidify the language and the culture for me. And it’s all for naught basically. Because I remember like, none of it. And again, that’s just one of those things where it’s a repetition thing. And I, unfortunately, did not. So here I am.

Josué Cardona 27:59I wonder too, I saw a video this week, it was a tiktok from an interview done in the 70s with a scientist who was talking about computers and artificial intelligence. And he was explaining why computers are not smart. And the the explanation that he gave was that he said, I could learn every single phrase, like I could learn every character in Chinese. And I could learn how to say multiple phrases. And I could learn the questions that could be asked and the appropriate responses. And I could learn all of those things and not know how to speak Chinese. Right, I can respond. And, and I think I obviously like that conversation comes up, because now we’ve got these language learning models and in different forms of AI that people are interacting with. And, you know, some people think they’re sentient now. That guy at Google, I saw the CEO of open AI the other day in an interview, someone said, like, is AI smart? And his response was, I don’t know. And I’ve thought about that, like, and the look on his face. And I think it’s because even though he knows that it’s not it seems like it is because of the way that it’s acting. It’s acting like they programmed it to act. So to the to the observer, like how, I don’t know it seems smart to me, How do I know if anybody’s wondering if they are appear to be to be smart? So I think about that and again, I’m we’re answering questions here that I’m sure more other people have. have actual answers to, or better answers. But I wonder if it’s not just like learning, right? Like, first of all, there’s a learning piece. And sure, there’s that habit piece. But you can link, you can you can take on a habit and not know, what the, what’s it called? You can you can know, you can have the habit built in, but like, does it have meaning? You know, is it actually something that you’ve like integrated into your life? I think I think it’s, you know, that argument that all of us made at school at one point, that was like, Hey, are we like, When am I ever going to use this? And then, but use it not in the sense of like, oh, yeah, like, brush your teeth? Right? It’s like, okay, yeah, no, I can brush my teeth every day. But like, you know, why is it really integrated into the system? Are you just doing it to do it? But what are ya’ll thoughts on that?

Lara Taylor 31:07I’m trying to think of like, they’re all as you’re talking about this, there’s a whole bunch of things, I think. If we don’t use the thing, right, our our brains, as we talked about, different pathways go in different ways, a lot of the times it can be use it or lose it. And there are some things that stick around for a while, like riding a bike, but it is harder to do. But like, there are pieces of algebra, completely forgotten. However, I do remember, percent over 100 equals is over of, because I do that a lot. And it’s something easy and mnemonic to remember. Right? Like Link was bringing up the idea of songs, poems, things that make it easier to remember, currently, I’m trying to learn Hebrew.

Josué Cardona 31:58how’s it going?

Lara Taylor 31:58And I’m using Duolingo. I know some words, it threw me into the deep end, learning the alphabet in Hebrew is one thing, and it gives you all kinds of pronunciation help. But then you go into the regular lessons, and there’s none of that pronunciation help. So I have no idea how some things are pronounced, but I can recognize it when we go to temple on Fridays. And I can do some I can. I don’t understand what I’m saying necessarily, but I do know, the words that the Rabbi is saying and singing. And the songs I’m starting to get those down. Some of them are harder, the longer ones, but I can just like when when I’m learning music in English, I can get the like the chorus of something down, or certain parts of the song. And I’ve noticed as things go on, I’m starting to learn, oh, this is when we do this thing. This is when we do that other thing. This is a prayer that means something like this. And so it is it is going okay, but asked me to have a conversation in Hebrew or it say anything to the rabbi in Hebrew? Absolutely not, not happening. But I know, I know, I know. And I know more than Nina knew in religious school. So there’s that.

Josué Cardona 33:28Well, there’s a lot of talk of immersion in language learning, right? Which is basically like, you have no other choice, right? All of a sudden, it’s all there. And the truth is that when we’re talking about, like these trauma responses, or, or anything like that, the truth is that ideally, we’re not in that state all the time. Right, so we so we don’t get to practice a lot of that. and that’s good. It’s just frustrating that when you when you need it, can’t find it, like when you put it,

Link Keller 34:01it means you have to spend time, like mentally practicing it, which is tough. one, to do it, but also like, get yourself to be like, this is a useful thing I should be doing and then repeating is like, oh, yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 34:19I kind of I’m sorry, I just, I was just thinking it’s kind of like, like people when it comes to like medications and stuff where they like they take it and then they feel good. And I’m like, Alright, I’m good. And then they decided to just stop taking it and then they realize, oh, it’s it’s not and then you know, then they have to go back on it and then the cycle just kind of repeats itself. But then then I was also thinking that like that kind of goes back to like what I was saying with my like with the patients that kind of deal with earlier where sometimes when they leave, they go back and the work that they have that that they that they’ve done while inpatient While it’s such a good, like foundation, I don’t think they had enough practice with it outside of the immersion factor and then suddenly just getting thrown right into it. So it’s like, like Lara, let’s say you just learn the Hebrew alphabet. And then now you have to go up and recite, recite the whole Torah.

Lara Taylor 35:19Not gonna happen

Marc Cuiriz 35:20exactly like, it’s, it’s one of those instances where it’s like, Alright, cool, you learned the basics now off, you go to, for some of them at least, and they get thrown back into their environment that is unhealthy or it’s toxic, or it’s just downright terrifying for them. And they’re going to be expected to utilize everything is just not going to happen.

Josué Cardona 35:43You can you can, you can, you can do as many drills for a sport as you want. But it’s very different than playing the game. And and when the unfortunate thing is that in therapy, most of the time, we cannot recreate the situation in sessions,

Lara Taylor 36:04or we shouldn’t.

Link Keller 36:08Yeah,

Josué Cardona 36:08yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 36:09you do not want to re traumatize people without proper support, and all of that, as a behavior specialists, like people would want me to be there and help the kids, they were always expecting me to show up when the kids were like in crisis and wanting to help them in that moment. Now that is helpful for me to be there and help them in that moment and learn the skills then because they’re practicing it, then. At the same time, it is more easy, it is easier and more helpful at times to learn it when you’re calm, and practice and practice and practice and practice. And also get the help in reminding to use those skills. When you’re when you’re escalated. And in crisis. I was thinking about I’ve talked about one of the more traumatic incidents I had when I was at work. And seeing a kid who was doing well went out into the world was doing really well and ended up still in a lower level group home, but went back to the school associated with my work and had a meltdown. Because other people were responding to him in the same ways that they used to respond to him. And so he let go of all the things he had learned because he was back in that environment. I honestly believe in I can’t, I can’t know for sure. But I honestly believe if he had not ended up in that situation, things would have ended up very differently for him. That had because other people, other people suck.

Link Keller 37:40I find that I mean, not me. But I find for some people, that experience is very obvious when you see somebody like hanging out with their parents, and they sort of revert to teen version of themselves. Because that’s the dynamic that was established. It can be it can be really rough to be like, Hey, you’re you’re acting like a 16 year olds right now. And I know you’re not having a good time. Nobody’s having a good time. Why is this happening a having to be like, oh, is because I’m with my parents, and they they’ll treat me like a 16 year old. So I’ll act like a 16 year old is like oof, do you want to do that? Or do you want to change the dynamic? It’s like, oh, well, you have to put effort in? Oh, no.

Marc Cuiriz 38:36Who wants to do that?

Lara Taylor 38:37This is what I have. I actually really enjoyed during the pandemic and starting this my switch to telehealth, like being able to when people are on vacation, or like Christmas break or whatever, and staying with their parents, hearing them closer to the moment like it’s not like, oh, last week or a month ago, I visited my parents in this this and this happened. They’re like, I’m in my parents bathroom. And I’m gonna go out there and talk to them five minutes from now helped me figure out how to react differently. And we can kind of practice and roleplay and try and figure things out. But yeah, we revert to those old patterns. Often,

Josué Cardona 39:15I forget what it’s called. I don’t think it’s a point of behavior point of something, right? Like you’re you’re talking about, like being, you know, like five minutes away from the situation, right? So it’s like you’re almost right there. You’re not in the actual moment, but you’re close enough. Right. And that’s something you can do. In an inpatient setting, you’re better when you when you do it at a when you’re doing in home. I don’t know why I forget that. Telehealth is like in home counseling.

Lara Taylor 39:50It’s like It’s like in home but also not right. There’s some semblance of like, like you want them to have privacy but Yeah, you are in their home. You’re just not seeing everything. You’re just seeing what’s behind them.

Josué Cardona 40:05Yeah, yeah. But they are in the setting. Right. Like, like it happened in this room where they were we have that argument or that fight or so that is, yeah, that’s just like a side thought. So, I, I like how we’ve looked at this from different angles. And I, I started with kind of having the tears of the kingdom example as like a conversation starter, or a way to, like an analogy to this type of thing. And you mentioned Jedi survivor, which is very similar in the sense that it’s a sequel, and it’s not just a continuation of the first game, like there’s new powers, there’s new abilities. There’s new clothes, and you’re like, eughghghh I like the old ones.

Lara Taylor 40:54Yeah, no, but some of that is personal preference, right? Like, I like the double bladed lightsaber. I thought it was the coolest thing. When Darth Maul had that. I wanted that. And then like having dual lightsabers, I like Ahsoka Tano. Like, I want to be like them. The other stances, not the newer ones, not as interested in a Kylo Ren sword. It also is less my playstyle, it moves a lot slower. And I don’t like that. But there are several things that like, they give you skills, and I just like start jumping up. Like it’s meant to be that way. But I cheez it a little bit and just like keep jumping off the wall multiple times until it glitches and puts me on top. Because

Josué Cardona 41:41You’ve talked me out of this being a good example, then we’ll keep it on the list. But it’s not it’s not as good

Josué Cardona 41:41it is a good is a good example

Link Keller 41:49it works. But the distinction in like, the weapon playstyle is a little different from the mechanical power system. Right? And,

Lara Taylor 42:01and the clothing options, right? Like i i Like this Cal better than the one in the last game. But I want him to be the one that I see in the trailers and all of that I want him to look like that. I don’t need all these other clothes. I changed the way BD looks only a little bit because I wanted to change the colors because I want

Link Keller 42:24gotta match my outfit

Lara Taylor 42:25Exactly. But like, I don’t need Cal to have all the crazy hair. It’s funny to look at but like, that’s not how I’m gonna play.

Josué Cardona 42:37Link, help me with this one.

Link Keller 42:38Yes,

Josué Cardona 42:39in Pokémon you can you get to a point where you can evolve, you can choose not to evolve. Now, if you evolve that opens, like a new skill tree in a way, right? Like you can have access to. But you don’t have to you can keep being like it doesn’t necessarily it isn’t detrimental, to go to level 100 in your in your regular form. Is that right?

Link Keller 43:03It depends on the Pokémon there are some Pokémon that with an evolution, they gain more skill points is not the right word. But they they gain more power for their moves sets. And they unlock specific moves that are only for that evolution. The other side of that is there are Pokemon that if you don’t let them evolve, they also get special moves that you can’t get if they do evolve. So there is like a balancing act to it. But most of the time you are correct. There isn’t particularly a huge distinction that you can’t overcome with the other power up systems or type matching kind of stuff.

Josué Cardona 43:53Yeah, yeah. Because I was thinking like, oh, no, I don’t I don’t want to evolve this pokemon because like I’m so attached to this one, you know, like, maybe maybe, maybe not. No, I don’t want it

Link Keller 44:03when I was playing. Pokemon Violet. I started with Sprigatito, who’s so cute and precious. And I evolved it up to its final evolution, which is fine. I don’t dislike the middle or last evolutions, but they’re not as cute as the baby. So as soon as I hit that final evolution, I made it hanging out with a ditto to get an egg and I bred a baby and I gave the baby and ever stone so it would not evolve and I ended up with a level 100 Sprigatito but it because I didn’t evolve it it didn’t unlock the dark power sets right it starts out as just grass type and then as it evolves, it becomes grass/dark. So because I didn’t evolve it it was just grass type. So there was there was a little bit of an exchange there but I thought it was worth it to send out my cute cute Little baby, especially going to gyms and fighting like giant, terrifying rock monsters and lightning beasts. And I’m like, Go kitten! and the kitten’s like level 100 blade slash [SHIIING]

Josué Cardona 45:11Here’s one from Marc, when Destiny two came out, I used, what’s the gun that I liked? Maybe you can remember the it was a rifle. It was it was a legendary one, which is the one that I liked, I can’t remember the name. But there was a weapon that was like grandfathered in from the first one. And I kept using that one for the longest time after it was like it wouldn’t get upgraded anymore. It couldn’t be any stronger. And I still insisted on using it. And even though I knew like, oh, at some point, I had to stop because I wasn’t even competitive at that point. Like I wasn’t even making a dent in anything. But but for the longest time I kept holding on to it, even though I knew. Like there, I was just very conscious of like, oh, there’s other. There’s other stuff that I could use. Why am I using this one, I can’t remember the name of it, though,

Link Keller 46:08there’s probably a better tool for this, but it’s already in my hands and there’s a guy I need to shoot in the face. So I guess I’m just gonna keep using it

Lara Taylor 46:18very different from my Borderlands three experience with the overpowered gun very early on and just using that the entire game.

Josué Cardona 46:30No, it’s the one that doesn’t have the radar disappear.

Marc Cuiriz 46:36I don’t know, when you’re talking. Just because I didn’t, I didn’t really play a whole lot of the first destiny. So that’s, that’s where my knowledge is very, very fuzzy. But I do I do kind of have that, that same kind of style, when it comes to destiny. There’s a lot of, there’s a couple of just like, random guns that you will like you’ll get on drops, that the I just have a particular one that has a particular role that I just I can’t let go of it. So I just I’ll find like, and they’ll they keep, like letting it get boosted up in power. Like it’s not sunsetted or anything. So I just keep upgrading it, even though I know like, there’s so many better options out there, or there’s a better role of that particular gun, but I just, I can’t let go of it. It’s just, it’s just my it just feels me, it just feels more like me. So I’m like, Alright, I’m just gonna I’m gonna keep using it. Or, or like an Assassin’s Creed I, I have a particular style. And I do very, my very best to play in that particular style. And I’ve done that consistently through every single game,

Josué Cardona 47:50that they’re not the same game anymore. Exactly.

Marc Cuiriz 47:53The point is that once it once origins came and it became more RPG, like with the free roam everything, I still insisted on trying to play it like in original assassin like the older games.

Josué Cardona 48:12but why?

Marc Cuiriz 48:14It’s just it just didn’t

Lara Taylor 48:15It’s a very different game

Marc Cuiriz 48:17Exactly. There’s, they’re completely different games

Link Keller 48:20But, Marc is the same.

Marc Cuiriz 48:22Exactly. And

Josué Cardona 48:24also he’s not the same

Link Keller 48:27you know what I mean

Marc Cuiriz 48:28I insisted on doing this just because it just it felt it felt like the this is the this is the title of the game that I’ve been playing for years. I understand

Link Keller 48:41I thought this was the creed! I thought this is the Assassin’s Creed I’m following it, why are you changing it?

Marc Cuiriz 48:47It’s like I’ve known it to be a certain style a certain way for so long. And then they go and change the formula. And I like the new formula. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy it very much. But I’m so ingrained in playing it in a particular way that like now when I’m playing like Odyssey or Valhalla I had to learn to adopt my to adapt my my play style. So it would fit the game more so I wouldn’t get as frustrated because of it. There’s one thing about me is that if I don’t do something or execute something away that I’m satisfied with or the way I wanted it to, I will go back and I will restart the checkpoint. I’ve had to do that so many times in The Last of Us Part Two where I had to go actually had to quit to the main menu and replay the chapter

Josué Cardona 49:37you didn’t have to

Lara Taylor 49:38You didn’t have to also

Link Keller 49:41you had to

Lara Taylor 49:42it’s interesting that you have that experience marc because I don’t notice a difference in my play from any of the Assassin’s Creed games even though they’re very different games. I just I don’t know what people’s like differences like

Link Keller 49:54Well, Lara,

Lara Taylor 49:54yes, they are more open world

Link Keller 49:56you gotta play 80 or 90 more times before you can really

Josué Cardona 50:01you gotta live and breathe the creed.

Lara Taylor 50:03But you know what, I don’t have time to play it 80 or 90 more times when I’m like doing all the stuff for Odyssey and Valhalla.

Josué Cardona 50:14But I like this one marc, because because like you said, you realized, I’m just struggling by trying to, by not by not coming into like by not adapting, basically, right. It’s like it is hurting me to stay with these old, old ways. And, and you still stuck with it for a while, right? You tried so hard, which is, which is what I think, right? I mean,

Link Keller 50:43it’s a great of the other side metaphor of like, Tears of the kingdom, not using the new powers is not necessarily holding you back, but it is making it like not as fun because you’re not playing in the new space. And then with Assassin’s Creed is like, I’m actively making this worse for myself. So it’s like both directions is like your pattern of behavior. Like, the context can change, and therefore it’s less efficient, but not like it’s not bad, it’s just less efficient. Or it can be like, this is actively harming me now. go both directions. I like that.

Josué Cardona 51:20And I think that is like, is it? Is it like, is it automatic for you that you just start playing it? Because you’re so used to it? Or are you consciously trying to not adopt the new way?

Marc Cuiriz 51:32I think when origins came out

Link Keller 51:34I think it’s both. like the first time and then I was like, I’m going to do it my way.

Marc Cuiriz 51:42When origins came out that it was more of a conscious effort. And I think that’s why origins. While I really enjoy the game, and I ended up enjoying it, it really put a sour taste in my mouth. Because I kept struggling by trying to play it the way I was used to playing the games. And I kept trying to put forth that active effort to continue to play it in that way. And sometimes it would work, sometimes it would be fine. And other times, it just wouldn’t. And then I would get frustrated. And then I would let myself die and I restarted and I would restart the whole area again. Just because I was insistent on wanting to do it this particular way. And there are times when I would just sit there in like a hiding area for like five minutes, watching the guards trying my best to play in the way that I want to. And when I beat origins, I was like, okay, good. I’m done with it. And then Odyssey came around. And that’s where it started shifting for me, where I remembered my old frustrations. And then the game also didn’t really give me a whole lot of opportunities to play it the way I wanted to, or the way I was used to

Link Keller 52:55game design!

Marc Cuiriz 52:57So I started shift so that’s when the shift started happening. And while subconsciously I’ll still try to play it the old way. I’m not

Josué Cardona 53:06are you trying? or is it just

Marc Cuiriz 53:08that’s that’s where like nowadays, like with Valhalla. I wasn’t trying to do it that way, just for I would subconsciously do it. But I would fall back into those old routines. But when things didn’t go the way I wanted to, I was like okay, well, you know what, I got a couple of axes, I’m just gonna swish swish and you know, then it’s done we’re good, we’re fine. And it becomes a little bit more of like, okay, I’m more comfortable with the idea of, I can try to play it like more sneaky. But if I screw up the sneakiness unless it’s like messing up like an assassination opportunity or something like that. I don’t really care. They’re gonna die. Regardless, I’m going to swings my axes or my swing my hammers, you know, whichever I prefer.

Lara Taylor 53:50Josué, it was the MIDA multi tool.

Josué Cardona 53:56Yep. Yep, I looked it up it wa sthe MIDA multi-tool. As well, it was too much time had passed, but I appreciate it. No, yeah. Yep.

Link Keller 54:07a multi tool, That you were not using as a multi tool.

Josué Cardona 54:12Because there was a submachine gun as your sidearm that you can also use and then it would have an additional perk when you use them both will make you faster, which I think it was worth it. But still, at some point it wasn’t worth it anymore. There’s, there’s I think there’s a lot of gaming examples of this that are that are.

Link Keller 54:30I think gaming is perfect for this conversation because so much of it is around like learning behaviors and then applying them in certain situations. And I do think it’s also a really great opportunity to think about your favorite games, especially if they are a series game like Legend of Zelda or Assassin’s Creed. And looking at how game designers are making choices in order to combat that very thing that people do which is they will revert to the thing that they learned before. And so it’s like, how do I teach them this new thing and get them to use it? It is like that’s a whole. That’s a whole field of game design.

Josué Cardona 55:11Okay, so for tears of the kingdom,

Link Keller 55:13yes.

Josué Cardona 55:14I bought a new controller.

Link Keller 55:16Yeah,

Josué Cardona 55:16a third party controller,

Link Keller 55:17oh, yeah,

Josué Cardona 55:19with Back button so I can program things. And I also bought new face buttons for it. So that because every time I switch from another console to the switch, the A B X Y thing just messes me up.

Link Keller 55:31yup

Josué Cardona 55:31And right now I remapped the buttons on my pro controllers. And, but the game doesn’t reflect you can’t do that in the game. And I am. I can’t tell

Lara Taylor 55:42that’s so mean

Josué Cardona 55:43honestly at this point. But I can’t tell at this point. If I’m if it’s easier or harder, because it’s still in some moments, I’m like, oh, press X. Oh, but x I’m after to the right to the left. thumbstick Oh, but the game doesn’t tell me right. So I think the game is easier. But there’s still moments where I’m like, wait, what? What happened? And control schemes? That’s something that happens all the time. There was there are some games that have legacy controls, right? You’ll see it’s a hit you want to play like the old games? Or do you want to play the new modern? way? And then sometimes you just start playing? And you’re like, why doesn’t like what is it No Man’s Sky? Like, it has the, the the crouch and sprint backwards on the on the on the right and left thumbstick like for most games, right? Like you crouch with the right, like, oh, no, wait, what, why, and every single time I go back to it and messes me up.

Lara Taylor 56:35And sometimes it’s important to have those legacy controls because I think there are certain I don’t know which game I’m thinking of, but there’s ones where like, I will completely screw up whether I’m running or shooting, like, and those are two very different things that are mapped to the opposite things. And so that’s like my, my idea with the keyboard, right when I’m learning to type with the keyboard, I learned to do it one way and to switch it and and try it this new way is going to make me way less efficient and slower and screw up the game. So I do need to go back to that legendary mode, you know,

Josué Cardona 57:10the legacy legacy mode

Lara Taylor 57:11legacy not legendary whatever

Link Keller 57:16legendary legacy.

Josué Cardona 57:18So the few other examples I was talking about tonight, just like, bring them up quickly, what is fortnite. fortnite is not just a third person shooter. Like the building mechanic is so important. It is important you realize it’s important when you come up against somebody that all of a sudden built a whole barrier, built the house around them and built these this whole tower in the time that it took me to reload. And you’re like, ohh right, like we’re not even, we’re not even playing the same game. Like this person just protected themselves and their team and like, did all this bunch of stuff. They came around, they built a castle. Just, it’s it’s one of those things, and I every time like I don’t spend enough time building. And so usually when I play, I’m just going around and you know, there isn’t anybody for the first, you know, few minutes when you’re playing and by the time you get to the mayhem piece where it’s full of people. Like, that’s not the moment for me to learn how to build. So I remember

Lara Taylor 58:19no the beginning of it is when you’re supposed to build Yeah.

Josué Cardona 58:22Or go into another thing, but I just like I’m so used to at this point, you know, so all of us have decades of playing these types of games. And so it’s like, oh, what I can build what I like, I think I should because otherwise I’m never going to get ahead in fortnite if I don’t if I don’t want to use those. And the final one I’m thinking of is like fighting games. Every fighting game,

Lara Taylor 58:50I just uppercut, uppercut, uppercut

Josué Cardona 58:53for me, it’s I do Hadouken I try to do hadouken move every time a quarter circle to the front and punch button? thankfully in almost every game, some character that is a special move for them

Link Keller 59:06you, if you ask me to play Smash Bros, I will gladly say yes. And I will pick Kirby and I will down B forever, I’m a brick a brick landing on your head.

Josué Cardona 59:19like Street Fighter six is about to come out. And it’s a very different game than Street Fighter two. There’s so many different versions of the Street Fighter. And some of the things are very subtle, but some things are like huge differences. But still like I will always default to a quarter or quarter circle to the front and then a B there’s actually like four basic moves that any fighting game I, I play I do those four moves. And if I pick the character that like a lot of characters that’s not that’s not at all how to play those. But I just think it’s funny that that’s like so so programmed in. Any other examples anyone want to share the kind of might serve to help people have some of these conversations or look at it from different perspectives

Link Keller 1:00:12I just want to say I think that this is an opportunity for our listeners to one reflect on the habits, behaviors in their lives and, and the way that they have changed them, or they haven’t changed them. And to be kind to yourself, when you are trying to change something, and it’s not gone as fast as you want it to, or it’s much tougher than you thought it would be like, yeah, it’s fucking hard, like, be nice to yourself. But also, as to what you were just saying about fortnite, recognizing that many people that you are encountering in your life, are forming these behavior habits right now in this moment, and some people are working off of 30 years of building and maintaining a behavior set. And so recognizing, like, and being compassionate towards people recognizing that, you know, it’s like, is this something that you’re learning right now and trying out? Or is this something that you’ve been doing it this way for 100,000 years, and now somebody’s like, hey, maybe you should change it. Like, that’s tough.

Josué Cardona 1:01:19Yeah, all sudden, you’re 40 years old. And then now you know,

Link Keller 1:01:23everybody’s 40 years old, and now we gotta we gotta learn new behavior. aw man.

Lara Taylor 1:01:29And it’s the argument that old dogs can’t learn new tricks is wrong, we can always be learning always be growing, it just takes time. And there are plenty of places where we should learn and grow as people. So

Josué Cardona 1:01:42I learned to whistle like, like, Finally, I’ve been able to whistle within the last month. After spending, my sister makes fun of me, because I taught her to whistle. Like, I knew the mechanics. I knew I knew. No, no, I knew I just couldn’t, I was just never able to do it. And so it was something that I’ve always just been like, I can never I can never whistle. And then

Link Keller 1:02:08do it. do it now

Josué Cardona 1:02:10[whistles excellently] I have a couple of different whistles are kind of a bird calls. But that’s That’s exactly what I told my son. I was like, yeah, he can’t teach an old dog new tricks. If I don’t do it repeated often? Will I forget? At least I know, I know. I know. I know. My, my face is capable of putting everything in the right position to make the whistle happen. Yeah, but thanks. Thanks for that point. Yeah, it’s hard. That’s kind of the point. It’s hard. And we don’t even notice that it’s happening sometimes. But it’s happening to us all the time, even in the games that we’re playing. So yeah, just like in games, the more you practice, it took me it took me like 80 hours of playing Monster Hunter to start integrating all the power ups and healing potions and all that stuff that are integral to the to the game. Obviously, not necessary. But once I started doing that, things got a lot easier, but it’s took like 80 hours to to learn that. So yeah. Also the whole thing with the tears of the kingdom, just last thing, the thing that made me realize like, oh, wait a minute, there’s other ways to do it was I think it I think it was on tiktok were like, you know, like, I’m just walking up a mountain or, like, I can’t beat these Bokoblins and then you go on tiktok, and it’s like, oh, yeah, somebody built a flying car and someone else built a giant machine gun. Like oooohh Yeah, right. I forgot I could do stuff. Okay, okay. You know, sometimes it just takes like, being reminded to kind of reactivate the and you know, and recall

Lara Taylor 1:04:04And having an outside perspective. And having someone else’s How does somebody else do it? Right?

Josué Cardona 1:04:09Yeah, yeah, that’s helpful, too. Yeah. But recall where you can recall recall,

Link Keller 1:04:12recall, recall.

Josué Cardona 1:04:14Yeah. Alright Everybody, give us your examples. Let us know if any of these resonate with you. Or if you end up using these with your clients or self-reflection, friends, family, students, let us know in any of our community spaces. The links are in the show notes. For more Geek Therapy, visit geek therapy.org. Remember to geek out into good. I’ll be back next week.

Link Keller 1:04:33mmmBuh bye.

Josué Cardona 1:04:37Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

• Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom
• Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild
• Cal Kestis / Star Wars Jedi: Survivor
• Who Framed Roger Rabbit? (1988)
• Ahsoka Tano
• Kylo Ren
• Darth Maul
• BD-1
• Pokémon series
• Destiny 2
• Borderlands 3
• Assassin’s Creed series
• The Last of Us: Part 2
• No Man’s Sky
• Fortnite
• Street Fighter series
• Super Smash Bro’s series
• Monster Hunter series

Conversation Topics:

* AI* Making and Breaking Habits* Change* Consequences* Difficult emotions* Family* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Guilt* Language Learning* Mental Health Services* Problem Solving* Resilience* Taking responsibility for one’s actions* Spaced Repetition

Relatable Experience:

* Making and Breaking Habits* Clarity/Understanding* Shame* New Life Event (New Rules)* Roleplay* Trauma

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