Well hello this is Krista with Episode #163 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. if you haven't already, you should check out all of the amazing trusted brands that I highly recommend. And these are products that I've tried on my dog Winston. And that I've researched know, like, and trust. Products that will also help your dog to thrive. Just go to https://www.wagoutloud.com/ And check out the trusted brands section. And I've negotiated discounts for most of the products, so why not see what can make a difference in your dog's life? True or False? Dogs have collarbones. That's actually false. In fact, dogs don't have any bones to connect their shoulder blades to their body, but instead they're attached with just muscles and ligaments. And I just learned this recently when I took my dog Winston in for some rehab for his arthritis, and the rehab person mentioned this to me when she was doing the cold laser on Winston's neck and his shoulder area. I just thought I would share this fun fact with you. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Carla Dusel, CPDT-KA is the Operations & Behavior Advisor for Central Bark, a company that provides Whole Dog Care through Enrichment Doggy Day Care, dog boarding services, grooming, retail market, and training. Carla has been working with dogs professionally for 12 years and is passionate about reward-based training methods and building the bond between owners and their canine companions. Carla shares her life with Karma and Gypsy, two darling senior bully breed mixes, Talim, a sporty young Whippet, and Queen and Ambrose, two spunky and snuggly Italian Greyhounds. Hey there dog lovers! You've tuned in to what will be a great chat with Carla Dusel. And we're going to talk about successful socialization. That's so important. So Carla, first of all, I want to thank you for being with us. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, this is gonna be great. Why don't you introduce yourself and share why are you so intrigued with canine behavior? Of course, yeah. So I am a professional dog trainer. I'm a certified professional dog trainer. And I am a operations and behavior advisor on the corporate team for Central Bark. So I've been working with dogs for about a decade, just a little over a decade. And I have just been, like most people in the industry just obsessed with dogs and animals for a very long time and through childhood. But I've always found behavior to be the most fascinating thing. And even when I was little, was interested in behavior, I was always asked if I wanted to be a veterinarian. And the answer to that was always no. I just wanted to know more about why dogs and animals do the things they do. So it always came down to behavior and the inner workings of the brain and how things function. So this is really where I ended up kind of going was really diving into behavior and understanding how things work. Cool. And we are learning more every day about how our dog's minds and body operate, aren't we? Yes, I mean, there is so much information that comes out every year. And I anticipate that will just continue to come out every single year, you know, we're learning more and more about all of the different species of animals that we share our lives with, including dogs. And at no point is that learning ever going to be finished. You know? And I think that's really important for even professionals to understand is that our learning, it never ends, right? We are learners through and through, even when we are trainers or professional teachers as well. Sure you're absolutely right. And they're so fascinating. So, let’s dive into this topic about socialization. So in your own words, what exactly is socialization when it comes to our dogs? What is Socialization? Yeah, so I think of it in a couple of different ways. So socialization in puppies, is really the practice of leveraging a natural curiosity that most puppies have from eight to 16 weeks of age, which is a critical window of development for puppies. And during this time, owners and care providers are encouraged to really thoughtfully set puppies up to build positive associations with novelty, in order to build self confidence and trust in the relationships that they have with their people and the people that are going to be providing care for them. In adult dogs socialization is just a little bit different. It's more of the rehearsal of already developed social skills in order to maintain their positive or neutral feeling towards people, dogs or other types of stimuli. So the way that socialization may look is a little bit different for every dog based on their individual needs, and the goals that their owners may have for them. We might have the goal of having our dogs share space safely, in kind of urban environments when we're going patio dining, things like that. But the next owner might have the goal of their dog, you know, doing therapy dog training, or just being a really confident family dog. So, socialization may look a little bit differently. And I think in puppies, and adult dogs, there are some unique distinctions there as well. Sure. And when you say socializing? Are we talking about socializing with other dogs and humans? Yeah, I mean, we're really talking about just everything that we might want for them to encounter in their adult lives. You know, so when we look at puppies, and we think about, you know, I have the hope of going, you know, camping with you some day, and paddle boarding or kayaking, things like that, we'd really want to kind of take that big experience that we have our hearts and dreams, you know, set on. And we would say, How can I help socialize you now to be successful in that future environment, right. So we might say, I take you out into the world, we go to wooded areas, I make sure that you're comfortable, and I try my best to help you feel comfortable, around, you know, unfamiliar people, unfamiliar dogs, all sorts of different sights and sounds of nature, right, all of the things that are harder for us to control, wind and trees and squirrels and all those little critters. And then also building physical confidence too. If we have the goal of doing paddle boarding or kayaking with our dogs, then we have to make sure that we're working hard to help them feel physically confident on kind of uneven surfaces or on wobbly surfaces, and that they feel comfortable swimming, they feel comfortable putting on life jackets, things like that. So socialization really is not just specifically human beings or dogs, but it is what might they have to hear or see or smell, what might they have to wear, or physically experience in their future as they become adult dogs or in the goals that we have for them, or sharing our lives with them? So really, with any new situation that we're putting our dog in, we want them to trust us enough to say, you know, this is okay, you're going to be okay. You know, first time that they're on a paddle board, that is a new experience. And I haven't been on one either, which I want to do. I want to SUP with my pup. Right, exactly. And it's super fun, I absolutely recommend giving it a shot. I've done it before. It's very fun. But it's fun when your dog feels comfortable and confident, right? Otherwise, it's just kind of stressful. So when you're looking at socialization, it really comes down to teaching our puppies that in the face of novelty, right in the face of things that are kind of strange or unexpected. During Halloween, it might be you know, the blow up pumpkin and the blow up big black cat that's on somebody's front lawn. Or for Christmas, it might be you know, the big blowup Santa Claus, you know, in the face of novelty things that you've never experienced before. You've had so many good experiences with so many totally random different things and so many different items. The vacuum, brooms, unfamiliar people, wheelchairs, you name it, right? Where those things have only led to you feeling relaxed and comfortable that in the face of those things, and while with their person, while with their owner, or their care provider, they can look at you and say, I feel really good because I know that you've never put me in a situation where I've been unsafe. And I know that in the face of novelty, things always end pretty well. Right? Even if I get a little nervous or a little startled. Ultimately, you take care of me. So we're helping them build that self confidence. Building those positive associations with novelty and then building again that trust in the relationship that they can rely on as they age. Yep, we have to set them up for success. So do you think socializing puppies is easier, because they haven't really developed any negative thoughts or feelings towards places, other dogs, people? Would they be easier to socialize than an adult dog? Difference with Socializing Puppies vs Adult Dogs Oof, that's a hard one. So I think that they come with their own kind of challenges. So puppies, they're never completely a blank slate. We are always looking at kind of a nature versus nurture aspect of things. But the reality is that there's always some amount of early learning history all the way through utero, and genetics and things like that, that come into play for how our puppies might feel about certain things, even before they come home, so even before they come home at eight weeks, or between that 8-16 week age window, they're not perfectly a blank slate. So they might have some feelings about certain things that we just aren't fully prepared for. And that's okay. That is part of the process of bringing home a puppy and learning about them and who they are and getting to know them. I definitely think that some owners and some trainers might enjoy the process of working with puppies more or working with adult dogs more. But I don't know that one is inherently easier than the other. They both kind of have their different challenges that they're going to present. For a puppy you might have, you really have to kind of be prepared to give them a lot of kind of emotional support, and really kind of give them a lot of reassurance and bend down and get on the ground with them and say like, oh, you're okay, you're like, everything is gonna be fine, here's some cookies, like you did a really good job. And in our puppies, we oftentimes see that that reassurance is so incredibly valuable when first building your relationship with them. And for some people, that can be really hard, right? Doing that in public spaces with your puppy can be kind of challenging, we get a little bit of that social anxiety. So that can be a little bit hard. And in our adult dogs, sometimes we are really looking at doing some more counter conditioning, versus socialization, depending on what their feelings are about things in the world, you know, if they already have a conditioned response of being, you know, afraid of buses, or motorcycles or things like that, at that point, we're not really looking at socialization, we're really looking at creating a new conditioned emotional response. And that is a behavior modification plan. So that is not at that point socialization. That’s saying, I know that you already feel uncomfortable with XY or Z. So now, I'm going to work with a professional trainer, and maybe even, you know, collaborate with my veterinarian to make sure that we're setting you up for success on all of these different fronts. And we're just doing kind of counter conditioning to say, can we take away some of the scariness of that thing and help you just feel more comfortable and relaxed in a way? That makes sense. So yeah, so I mean, there are different challenges based on our age, and the way that we feel about certain things. But I mean, I love I love all of it, you know, and I think that helping dogs feel comfortable with anything that they might feel kind of worried about is certainly something that we can have the goal of. That doesn't mean that we're going to get every dog to love, something that they're uncomfortable with, or to genuinely want to engage with something they're uncomfortable with. I'm afraid of spiders, right? And if you wanted to teach me to love spiders, that would be a really big challenge. You might be able to teach me to tolerate spiders, but the likelihood that I'm ever going to have a pet spider and name her Priscilla and carry her around and baby talk to her is very, very low. So you know, we just end up kind of looking at things with a slightly different lens depending on age, and what their emotional response might be to certain things already. That's awesome. Well, Carla, this is a great place that we are just going to pause for a moment for a sponsor break and we'll be right back. A big thank you to the team at Adored Beast for being our monthly sponsor. I am a HUGE fan of Adored Beast because they offer A one-of-a-kind line of high-quality, Human-grade, natural products that don’t just treat the symptoms of your dog’s ailments, but also the root causes. With an impressive line of natural, holistic treatments, these homeopathic products address core issues, support healing and aid in preventing reoccurrence. Addressing Gut Health, Allergies, Liver, Bladder and Nutrition, they offer a 100% No-Risk Money Back Guarantee. I especially love their Liver Tonic, Turkey Tail Mushroom Liquid Double Extract, their Leaky Gut Protocol, Fido’s Flora probiotic, and Phyto Synergy Super Antioxidant.  You really can’t go wrong with any of their quality products.    Support your pet’s health today by checking out  https://adoredbeast.com/ AND be sure to use the code WOL15 for 15% off on any of their high-quality natural products that will support and heal your adored beast.   With black Friday right around the corner, be sure to sign up for the Adored Beast newsletter at the bottom of their website for exclusive Black Friday deals, coming soon. Again, that url is  www.adoredbeast.com  And welcome back everyone, we are speaking with Carla Dusel. And we are talking about socialization. And, Carla, you've brought up some great points. I wanted to ask, you know, when we get a puppy, we are encouraged to you know, put our finger in their mouth and touch their feet and maybe put them on their back. So they do feel more comfortable because people are going to be touching them and handling them throughout their lives. Is doing that desensitization, I guess is what you would call it is that also part of socialization? Socialization or Desensitization? So yes and no. I'm always really cautious about just doing things to our puppies without really paying attention to what they're telling us about how they feel when we're looking at those types of experiences. Because we can unfortunately, set our puppies up to just feel more uncomfortable with certain types of handling, or with certain types of novelty, or stimuli. So when we're looking at the way that we socialize our puppies, it is absolutely possible for us to say, you know, we're going to play pass the puppy or we're going to put our finger in your mouth or hand in your bowl or things like that to just desensitize you. But the reality is, we might actually just be sensitizing them even more to whatever it is we're doing. So if they're uncomfortable, we might just be building even more discomfort, instead of helping them to feel more relaxed over time. So that's where it can get a little bit tricky. When we're looking at socializing our puppies or looking at, you know, desensitizing our puppies to physical handling or things like that. I really encourage owners and care providers to focus on building those positive associations using praise and toys and treats to add value to experiences versus just doing the thing and hoping that we tolerate it well. Because there is the risk that our puppies to say, you know, I was uncomfortable. And now I just feel even more uncomfortable. And this keeps happening over and over again. And my discomfort is just becoming more cemented. So there is that risk, right. And I think one of the biggest things that any puppy owner or new dog owner across the board can do is just learn more about body language and the intricacies of how dogs communicate. And by learning more about body language, you're really going to be able to see what your puppy is telling you during the socialization process, about how they feel about handling different novelty, different stimuli. And then you're going to be able to gauge Oh, is there a different path that we should be taking to help you feel more comfortable with this thing? So instead of, you know putting our hands in their food bowl or picking up their feet and touching their toes to try to desensitize them? What I would say instead is maybe we walk up to their food bowl and we add extra cookies to their food bowl. So that instead of just get used to me coming up to you and doing this, which is, let's be honest kind of strange, where if somebody came up to my food and we're just touching my plate, I, I'd be a little uncomfortable too, I'd be like those are my french fries. But instead, add more value to the food bowl, right, so come up to the food bowl, and add some extra yummy cookies, add an extra treat in there, so that your presence coming up to the food bowl is something where our puppies are going to anticipate even greater value with your presence, versus maybe some awkward interaction or discomfort. Or if we're looking at helping our puppy feel more comfortable with Paw handling for future nail trims, things like that, instead of just picking up their paws and touching them over and over again, which again, might just be creating a more sensitized puppy who says, No, I'm positive that I don't like this. Instead, we pick up a paw or we teach them to give us their paw. And they get cookies for it. They say, this actually just equals really good stuff. So it's not about you just learning to tolerate it. It's about you genuinely feeling good about this experience. All good points. Carla, what are some of the signs that an adult dog needs more socialization? So I mean, it really depends on kind of the adult dog, I think, when we're looking at the adult dog in our life. And even when I consider the adult dogs in my own life, it's really about what they enjoy doing, and kind of meeting them where they're at, versus necessarily saying they need more interaction with other dogs or with unfamiliar people. With your adult dog, they kind of are who they are, you know, and it's kind of like adult human beings too. I have never enjoyed going out and going to parties or going to clubs or anything like that. And for some people, that is a big part of their way of socializing, right. And for me, it's just not how I socialize. And that's totally okay, right. So somebody could absolutely have the goal of saying we're going to teach Carla to enjoy going to clubs and going dancing, but they kind of be paddling against the stream, right, they would be working against the way that I kind of operate and the way that I find things reinforcing. So what would work best is to say, I see that you kind of just enjoy different things. So I'm going to meet you where you are. And we're going to meet your needs in a slightly different way. So I think when we look at our adult dogs, it's really important to say, do I think you're really interested in meeting unfamiliar dogs? Or spending more time around people? Or is this something that I am hoping for in a dog? And I'm just projecting onto you, right? Is this my own human need, that I'm putting onto you? And then from there really saying, Okay, if this is more about me, then how can I change my perspective to support you better, and maybe that's going for more, you know, nature walks, and more sniffaries. And maybe that's signing up for a group class, where you're not actually engaging with other dogs, but we're sharing space, we're learning new things together. Maybe that's signing up for daycare, where there's gonna be a behavior assessment, and we can let you know professionals really look at that and say, you know, is this going to be the right environment for you versus going to a dog park, where every owner is really kind of determining what might be the right fit, which can be a little bit of a gamble. So I'd really look at your specific dog, right, think about your dog, what is it that they love to do? What have they told you that they love to do? And as an adult? Are they showing you that they really want to play with other dogs? Or is that just something that you're hoping for? And kind of distinguish the two things right? Is it our human need and interest? Or is it our dogs desire? And then go from there. Do they really like sniffing? Do they really like walking through the tall grass? Do they really like splashing in the water? What is it they enjoy? And then how can we meet their needs? Because, again, I'm not really going to enjoy going clubbing but maybe I would like book club in my own house. Right? So maybe for our dogs. It's a playdate with another dog from our family unit. Right? Maybe it's a friend or family member’s dog where it’s one on one playdate in our backyard, versus going to a big dog park, or we're having these other types of big socialization goals. So I think those are kind of things to think about when we're looking at our adult dogs. For socialization, it's kind of taking our own needs out of the equation and really looking at our dog and saying, What do you really want? Well, I love that you're pointing that out that we shouldn't force it, we need to meet them where they are. Because if we do force a certain situation on them, and they're already fearful, and or aggressive, that can just exasperate the problem, because, again, we're not taking their feelings and comfort level into the equation. Meet Your Dog Where They Are Yeah, exactly. And if they're, you know, if they're uncomfortable, then they're, they're going to express that in some way, you know, like that is that is going to come out. And oftentimes, the way that dogs express their discomfort is not a way that generally makes us feel very warm and fuzzy. That doesn’t make us feel great. And sometimes we have a lot of like, feelings of shame or guilt around that, which just isn't really necessary, you know, we can just look at our dog and say, Okay, this is just isn't who you are. And that's okay. And I'm just going to meet your needs in a different way. Right? So we don't need to feel bad, or guilty or ashamed. If our dog doesn't want to play with every single other dog. Or if they tell us that very clearly, they don't want to play with other dogs, then it's just communication for us to say, Okay, we're gonna meet your needs in a different way. And that's totally okay. That takes the pressure off of everybody. Right, exactly. Okay, the big question. Let's say my friend has a new dog, and they want to bring it over to introduce it to my dog, Winston. What is the best way to introduce two dogs? How to Introduce Two Unfamiliar Dogs So there are a couple of different things that you can do. I think my favorite way to introduce two dogs who are unfamiliar with each other is honestly by going for walks together first. And I think that going for walks in not necessarily like a neighborhood setting, but kind of in a big open space, a big empty soccer field, or park setting, kind of an open environment that's going to be a little more quiet. But having our dogs both on leash, kind of, you know, 20, 30, 40 feet away from each other, just seeing each other from a distance. And going for a little walk together, having it be very casual. And having there be as limited social pressure as possible, is really a nice way to just say we're all in the same place. But you don't necessarily have to jump right into engaging and interacting with each other. A lot of times, what we can unintentionally do is kind of let dogs loose together in a backyard or in a park. And then all of a sudden, we are getting a lot of information very quickly. And sometimes don't have the means to support them in the best way when we do that. Right? So if we go to a backyard, and we just let both dogs off leash, and let them go and see what happens. If one is overwhelmed, or one is a little more pushy, it can really kind of explode into this big production very, very quickly, where they're kind of cementing the way they feel about each other. In moments, right? In moments, their initial interaction is you overwhelmed me, and now I'm uncomfortable. And that's much harder to undo. Right? If we want to set them up for a really healthy long term relationship, if this is a relationship that we want to really grow and nurture and have the longterm, right? You have friends and family that are going to be in your life for years and years and years. You want your dog to be able to spend time together during family get togethers and picnics and things like that over years and years and years. I think it's really important to just take the time to do those slow introductions, so that we can just build comfort with sharing space first. Low pressure, not just running around chasing each other getting in each other's, you know, business and, and overwhelming each other. But can we just share space, can we just go for a walk in a big open park? And sniff the grass together, you know, then we can give each other say hi, give a little handshake, and then take a break, go sniff the grass again, go pee on trees go Do you know go look at the squirrels. And then you know have a little side conversation, before we have the off leash backyard experience, it's important to just gauge that they really feel comfortable. Just even being in the same environment before they are free to possibly play or possibly terrorize one another, you know, and so those are just kind of the things that I would keep in mind is, if this is a relationship, we really want to nurture to be healthy for years, then go slow, do the slow introduction, do the walk in the big open space where both dogs are on leash, we have treats for both dogs that are on each individual owner, so that we can give them cookies, we can encourage them to walk away from each other if we see tension building anything like that. But they have the opportunity to look at other things, they can look at the birds, the squirrels, they can sniff the ground, they can roll around in the grass. And it's not just about the pure excitement, and novelty of seeing another dog and then running off leash with them, where we're gonna get our adrenaline pumping and our heart racing. And anytime we have that kind of scenario, our inhibition drops down too. So we're gonna get more rough behavior, we're gonna get more rough play. So really go slow, set them up for success if we're looking for kind of a long lasting relationship. Fantastic advice. Well, that makes me feel better, because that's how I introduce two dogs. Good. Well, I can't believe it, Carla. But this was what happens, we never have enough time to continue. But hopefully we've whet your appetite to learn more about proper socialization with our dogs. So is there anything that you'd like to leave us with before we sign off today? How to Learn More No, I think the biggest thing, like I said earlier is just learning as much as you can about how dogs communicate. So pick up some books. Look, look online, there are some really awesome books by some really amazing authors that have illustrated guides for interpreting how dogs communicate with each other through their, sometimes very subtle visual cues. But I think that understanding how dogs communicate is going to be the number one thing in your journey for socialization, that's going to tell you everything you need to know about how your dog feels about the world, and everything they're seeing and experiencing. This has been so wonderful, Carla. Well, where can everybody find out more information about you and Central Bark? You can just go to CentralBarkUSA.com. And there is a ton of helpful information on the website. We also have a blog. And that is one of the things that I work on to kind of create some content for there. So there is more information on how to socialize your puppy, the do's and don'ts of socialization, things like that, that you can find on CentralBarkUSA.com and in our blog, but lots of q&a there about you know how to how to best support your dog and whether or not daycare or other social environments might be the right fit for your pup. Social Media URLs or Tags a.     Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/centralbarkusa/ | @centralbarkusa b.     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CentralBarkUSA | @centralbarkUSA Awesome. Well, as we said in the beginning, there's always more to learn. So I will put all of these links in the show notes so people can check it out. And Carla, thank you so much. I really appreciate you sharing this very important information. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. It was super fun. Thanks again to our friends at Adored Beast for sponsoring this month’s episodes. Remember, they offer a 100% No-Risk Money Back Guarantee on all of their high-quality products. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by supporting the needs of your adored beast by going to https://adoredbeast.com/ and using the code WOL15 for 15% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.