Hello everyone this is Krista with episode number 132 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. did you know that hypoallergenic dogs don't really exist? It's usually not a dog's fur that causes allergies, but his dander and the protein that it carries. yes, there are dogs that shed less fur, or don't shed it all. But that just means the dander is less mobile. So dander is even released from hairless breeds. Of course, various breeds produce different types of dander so you can be more allergic to some dogs than others. The bottom line is, according to scientists, you can't breed away the protein in dogs that causes allergic reactions, and so hypoallergenic dogs do not exist. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Rich Kelleman is the Co-Founder and CEO of Bond Pet Foods, a Boulder, Colorado-based start-up that’s working with biotechnology to make pet food from real meat protein like chicken, turkey and fish, without the animal. Before diving into the world of pets and food tech Rich was a VP and Director at some of the world’s most respected advertising agencies including CP+B, FCB, and Fallon, where he led brand strategy for Burger King, P&G, Kellogg’s, and Coca-Cola, among others. Rich has a B.A. in Marketing from Boston College, with additional study at Stanford University’s Center for Social Innovation. Hello dog lovers! We are so glad that you are here and want to be the best advocate for your dog's health and wellness. Today, I am joined by Rich Kelleman, who is going to share some fascinating information on real animal protein without the slaughter. So Rich, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today. Why don't you introduce yourself and tell us why are you on this mission to find alternative protein sources for our dogs? Hey Krista. great to be here and excited to share a little bit more about what we're cooking up with Bond. So I'm the CEO of Bond Pet Food. And we are working with food technology to make pet food from real meat protein like chicken, turkey and fish without the animal. And it sounds a little bit sci fi but you know, as I explain a little bit more about what we're doing it something that is, in some ways, this technology been around for more than half a century to make things that we enjoy and eat every day today. But we're just reassembling that process, in our case to make meat protein that can serve as a primary source of nutrition in the dog and cat’s diet. So at a very high level. So what we're doing is we're using a process called microbial fermentation, or precision fermentation. And what that is, is it is a brewing process of sorts where we work with yeast and other fungi to make proteins, and the vessel and the fermentation tank that have the characteristics and composition that we're looking for. Other applications of this technology are for example, the industrial production of enzymes for cheese manufacturers that are used in cheese making to separate the curds and the whey. Historically, those enzymes have been procured from the fourth stomach of a baby calf. Decades ago, there was a lot of slaughter and harvest to get at those enzymes that could be a high quality input into the cheese making process. But then, some smart scientists realized that instead of getting at those enzymes and making them in a way that was land, water, energy intensive, it could basically take the DNA from a baby calf, isolate the material that would express and produce enzymes that were important for cheesemaking insert that DNA into a microbe like a yeast, and then as they put that yeast into a fermentation tank, feed it simple sugars, vitamins and minerals. I'm oversimplifying the process, but as the yeast grows and the enzymes for that cheese grow as well, and they're able to harvest it from the fermenter once it reaches a certain density, dry it down and then use that ingredient in the production of cheese in that environment used today in almost 90% of all cheese that's manufactured in the United States, even organic cheese, whether people know it or not. So we're Following the same process and protocol, just with a little bit of rejiggering to instead of making that enzyme to make meat proteins that could, as I mentioned, serve as the foundation of a dog and cat food recipe for their pet health. Can I stop you there Rich for a second? Because I don't know if everybody knows the current state of the pet food industry and why you are looking at alternatives for protein sources and you are blowing my mind. By the way. Can we back up just a little bit? Because a lot of us know that much of the meat currently found in pet foods, especially the low cost products, comes from animals that are known as the four D or the dead, dying, diseased or disabled, that are unfit for human consumption. Can you briefly talk about what factory farming is and why it is so awful, not only for the food, I use that really loosely, that word food that is being created and how it is impacting the environment? Yeah, no, it's a great question. Apologies. sometimes I geek out on this stuff. We're gonna get back to it, believe me. Yeah. So it's a fundamental question. And that's really, what is a reason for our being and what problem we're trying to solve. You know, we're not anti meat, we think that meat can be a beautiful thing. For dog and cat nutrition, it gives them all the essential amino acids that they need to thrive. It's highly digestible and bioavailable. But the production of meat comes with a host of environmental safety and animal welfare downsides to satiate the demand that is required to feed a growing pet population here and abroad. There was a study that was done by some researchers at UCLA a few years ago that tried to get a better understanding of the environmental impacts of meat consumption by America's dogs and cats. And so they looked at the supply chain, all the inputs and outputs of production, when it comes to land, water, energy, greenhouse gas emissions, you know, toxins that just are part of the, the waste stream of the harvesting of meat. And a couple of conclusions that came from that study, I think, are eye opening. number one was just from the calculation that if America’s dogs and cats are their own country, their consumption of meat products alone would rank fifth in the world, our dogs and cats are voracious consumers of meat. And the second point related to the sustainability and environmental impacts of this production was that up to 30% of all the negative impacts associated to meat production when it comes to greenhouse gas emission. And resource use. up to 30% of those negative impacts can be attributed to meat production for our dogs and cats. So I think there's it's true that a lot of dog and cat foods don't necessarily have the grade A prime steak, right, that's number one on the ingredient labels. But even taking that into account and considering the resources that are required even to make byproducts that are used in pet food, it still has a material impact when it comes to resource intensity, negative environmental impacts, not to mention the farm animal welfare impacts to be able to harvest those ingredients that are used in pet diets today. So that is really why we're trying to find a better solution to make meat in a way that's more efficient and responsible. There is another layer that you mentioned, which is that meat ingredients, especially in the pet food industry are hard to trace. In terms of their origin. A lot of meat meals are often key inputs into an ingredient deck in many pet food recipes. And the origin of those meals and within them is it's not always very appetizing. You know, there are a number of recalls every year when it comes to conventional pathogens that are just part of commingling in meat processing with salmonella, listeria, E. coli, and the like, but also weird things end up in the meat meals and supply chain. You know, zoo animals have been found. The DNA of zoo animals have been found in, in pet food. The euthanasia drug that's used to put down dogs and cat has also been found in pet food, which indicates that actually dogs and cats are maybe in the food supply chain as well. I’m not saying that is totally true in the sense that every bag of dog food that you get is, you know, there's a danger of that having that in there. But it has been traced, in some instances to being in pet food. So our ability to produce these meat proteins in a cleaner, more responsible, efficient way, while ensuring because we're growing it in a controlled setting that that has zero chance of entering the food chain and supply chain that's also a giant benefit of, you know, ultimately what what we'll be able to bring to the world. Wow, that's amazing. Well, I'm excited to chat with you more about this amazing technology and what you guys are doing. We are going to take a quick sponsor break and we will be right back. SPONSOR AD We are so grateful to the Original Mine Pet Platter for sponsoring this episode. 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Welcome back everyone. We are chatting with Rich Kelleman from Bond Pet Food. And we are talking about real animal protein without the slaughter. And I don't know about you guys, but I am just blown away with everything that Rich is sharing with us. And before we go into Bond Pet Food and what they're doing with this amazing food technology, Rich, what do you think of the plant based protein dog foods that are out there? Yeah, I think there's definitely a role for plant based nutrition in dog food products. Not necessarily cat food for primary nutrition because cats are obligate carnivores. But there is certainly a way to calibrate from a formulary and nutritional standpoint, a primary dog food recipe in a way that will give them all the essential amino acids and requirements they need to thrive. But it is a difficult challenge, in part because many plant based proteins possess anti nutritional factors. And what I mean by that is, while on paper, it may look like they're giving them the full robust nutritional profile that they need to be healthy. Some plant based proteins actually prevent absorption of other micronutrients. So if it's part of their diet day and night, for years, it could over time, present some challenges that rear their head a little bit further down the line. So I think having plant based ingredients, and perhaps a vegan recipe as part of a broader diet. I think it has merit, and we're fans of that to a limit. And that's why, you know, we're another reason why we're going about seeing if we can reimagine the way that we make meat to be included into a pet’s diet that is just made with greater integrity and more responsibility because if we could do that, give them the same meat protein that's just as bioavailable as its conventional counterparts. But without all the downside And then we think we have a better solution than just, you know, from what may be available off the shelf with plant based foods and resources today. Sure, no, that makes sense. Well, let's dive in a little deeper about this fermentation process. You You said this technology has been used for decades in making cheese and beer. So how do you really grow the animal cells to create the end product, the protein that you're talking about? So we're starting with chicken meat protein, and we're starting with chicken because it's the most consumed meat in the world for people and pets. I think it's in 80% of all pet food recipes in some fashion that are out there today. And so what we do is, you know, we, in our instance, we took, and this is a long story, but I'll just give you a taste of it. So we wanted to when we were looking at growing and producing our chicken being able to point to the chicken that was the origin of our ingredients, not just that, oh, you know, we were able to get a sample from any random chicken and then be able to grow and harvest, you know, their, their protein in our fermenter. What we did is we actually took a trip to this heritage chicken farm in the dead of winter. And to Lindsborg, Kansas. And we went to a heritage chicken farm because heritage chickens in a conventional sense are raised with a great deal of respect. You know, they're free range, they grow slowly. They're not engineered chickens, they have a lifespan up to eight years. They're just treated. You know, when we're talking about conventional agriculture in a way that I think is representative of our ethos. If you're going to eat or consume meat from an animal, that's one that you you'd want to look for. But we took this trip to this heritage chicken farm, we interviewed chicken, we picked one out of the lot that we thought, you know, could be representative of the origin of our chicken and we took a harmless blood sample from her. She's still alive and well and roaming free on the farm. And we're making sure that with with the farmer that she can live her natural life without harm. But then what we do is we from that blood, we isolate the skeletal muscle DNA, which is the building blocks of meat, and then we insert that DNA into a yeast, like a saccharomyces yeast, baker's yeast, put that strain of yeast into a fermentation tank. And so just think of literally it looks when it’s at scale, just like a brewing tank that you'd find in a brewery. We see the yeast that's in there simple sugars, vitamins, minerals, and nutrients that it needs to grow. And as it grows, the protein, the chicken protein, the meat protein that's inside of it grows, so that as it gets into its full density, just like you, you know, if you're brewing beer or something else, you get that frothy liquid in the instance of beer or the cheese enzymes, you get, you know, a protein that reached a certain volume, right, and it's ready to harvest and we pull that out of the bioreactor or the fermenter. Gently dry it down, grind it up, and then we're left with a concentrated meat protein that can be blended into a recipe or extruded into a kibble, freeze dried, dehydrated or baked into a treat. And again, it does sound when we're talking about how food is made, I think many, including myself included before I really began and started on this journey. The mechanics of this sounds pretty foreign, but it is a process whether you're talking about beer or whether you're talking about enzymes for cheese, good bacteria for probiotic supplements, for example. It's made through a similar process. the heme protein. And the impossible burger is actually made in a similar way in the sense that they're brewing these microbes to produce heme protein that's usually found in meat that gives meat its flavor. That heme is something that's made through a similar process of microbial fermentation. But again, we're reassembling the process. We're not producing any of those ingredients. We're using this brewing process to yield and harvest meat protein through the process that I described. So it's a tried and true method, I think we're just doing it in a unique and perhaps transformative way to reimagine how meat protein is made from a from a pet nutrition and pet health standpoint. And right now, if you walked into our food lab in central Boulder, you just see these vessels with like bubbling percolating percolating tanks. And we're, we're making batches every week, just so that we can understand how to grow them grow these proteins in a way that gives us the exact protein composition that we're looking for. And that makes sense from a commercial standpoint and a unit economics standpoint. So sure, that's what we're toiling away with every day with that process development in that work in our edit in our headquarters. Wow, that is crazy. And you're saying that the end product includes all of the essential amino acids that dogs require for optimal health. But it would be the same exact amino acids as if we were to take that original chicken that you mentioned. Absolutely, yeah, it's nutritionally identical. And just as bioavailable as what you would find. And if you were harvesting these meat proteins in the conventional sense on farm and field. And that's what you know, we're excited about because we know we haven't done a full lifecycle analysis on this yet, because we haven't scaled up the protein. So lifecycle analysis is basically looking at the equivalent land, water, energy requirements to produce a kilogram of meat our way instead of raising, you know, chicken on a farm and looking at all those various inputs, looking at them side by side and seeing what's more efficient. Also, greenhouse gas emissions and the like, just to see how much lighter we are on the planet. But we know, for example, from parallel industries and approaches, or go back to the enzyme for cheese manufacture, just because it's, it's easy to draw a straight line to. But in that instance, the process of making those enzymes is 90% more efficient when it comes to land, water and energy intensity to make the equivalent material and through that process, than it is in a conventional sense. So we were pretty confident that when we come out the other end, we'll be seeing the same types of efficiencies. Wow. And Rich, since this is such a groundbreaking product and process, how are you going through the regulatory process through the FDA and AFFCO? Yeah, so we have just started the process of working through the FDA and Center for Veterinary Medicine, engagement. This is something that will take a considerable amount of time, because we want to make sure that we can demonstrate performance, safety and efficacy and show that it's identical to the chicken meat proteins that are on the market today. So we've just begun that dialogue and that conversation, we will be doing a pretty robust amount of just like any new ingredient would feeding trials with dogs and cats, to show what the uptake looks like, you know, how they eat it, how it's processed in their bodies, in terms of stool quality, how it impacts qualitative measures, like their energy, hair and coat and a host of other things. So we'll be really looking at this with rigor to make sure that when we come out the other end of all that that we get the FDA, the CVM and AFFCO’s approval for use in food, but that also we and the public can have confidence that this is something that could be the mainstay of their of their best friend's diet. And are you going to share your product with other pet food manufacturers as the base protein ingredient? Or is this something proprietary that you are just going to make your own food with this science? Yeah, that's a great question. I initially it would be something that we’ll include in our own brand of products, in part because once we start producing and we've gone through all that development work and regulatory work, it's not like we're going to be producing 1000s and 10s of 1000s of tons. Now it'll be something that we’ll slowly start to ramp up production. So easier to introduce it initially in Bond’s own branded products. over time, this is definitely something that can have broader utility and the high quality protein that the likes of Nestle and Mars and Hills and others could could get some real benefit out of. And we do have good relationships with all those pet food manufacturers, I think all of them right now are looking at their own supply chain security and how they could satiate the demand of a growing pet population. And they know that our approach and approaches that others are taking to alternative proteins, whether it's cricket protein or other plant based sources, they're all interested and exploring that for their own portfolios. So over time, there'll be something that will have broad use and application, but initially, it would be just in service of our own our own brand portfolio. Okay? And do you, when do you anticipate that your products with this technology will actually be available? Our goal is to have them in market by the the end of 2023. Okay, so we're still a couple of years out from having this in the hands of people and in the mouths of dogs and cats. But in the meantime, what we're doing, and we're going to really start introducing this initial offering the back half of this year and into next, we're introducing what we just view as bridge products. So for example, we have a beautiful dog treat bar. It's like a candy bar. And in one sense, not in terms of like we're not feeding dogs chocolate, but it's, it's in the form, it's in the form of a candy bar like profile, so it has pure microbial protein. So think of a dried yeast as a hero ingredient that is an amazing ingredient, just for a protein digestibility. bioavailability has some other great characteristics to dried yeast, nutritional yeast, like B vitamins and the like. So that's the hero ingredient in that initial bar. And the reason that we're starting with these initial products that don't have our proprietary meat proteins, but have other proteins that are made through fermentation, like the yeast is so we can begin to educate the public about the beauty and merits of proteins and products that are made through this approach, kind of get them comfortable of thinking about this new way of feeding and nutrition. And then when our meat proteins are ready in a couple of years time, they've had some assemblance of you know what these microbial proteins how their dogs, and cats may respond to it. And it'll be an easier bridge for them to give it a try for beyond treats. something that can be the primary source of of their nutrition, day and night. So we have a protein packed dog treat bar that we're going to be reintroducing in a couple of months made with yeast, we're going to have other conditional formulas, like a bar for gut health, a beauty bar for hair and coat that's made with micro algae, as well as yeast, and then a bar for joint health as well, that could really help dogs that have you know, are fighting with those types of ailments, just then being able to as they age is, you know, different breeds of getting up and down and going on the hikes as they were when they were a bit bit more of a pup. So we have a whole host of products that we're going to be launching in the interim and that we're just as excited about but the more ambitious products and the things that we think are going to be even more transformational are the meat proteins that we've been talking about this, this entire podcast that are right around the corner. Oh my gosh, this is so exciting. And thank you to you and your team for thinking outside the box and pushing science and new technologies. And I'm just so excited to see what you guys are doing. And it sounds like a very bright future for our planet and for our dogs and cats as well. So as we wrap up Rich, I would like you to just share with everybody Where can we find out more information about you and everything that Bond Pet Foods is doing and the things that are coming on the horizon? Yeah, I think it's the same cast of characters that that you might expect. at our website on Bondpets.com There's a shop page with the products that are available at the moment and that will you know, we'll have a full suite of dog treats initially that will be I think, worth looking at and exploring for The dog parents, over the next six months, we have a presence on Facebook and Instagram. Links: IG, Twitter, Facebook, Site And that's where you'll find a little bit more of the play by play of how things are going in our food lab and our progress with all that work as well as some of the other partnerships and product announcements. So yeah, I encourage anybody who's interested in looking at what the future of food might look like, and perhaps, if you're interested in giving us a try, I would love for you to bring it home. And, you know, tell us what you think, you know, there's, there's a, we're excited to share our story and introduce some of these products in the weeks and months ahead. This is great. And I want to be a part of your journey. So I am going to put all of these links into the show notes so that everybody can keep apprised of everything going on at Bond Pet Foods. So Rich, thank you so much for sharing this exciting technology. I am so excited about the future. So I really appreciate everything that you're doing. You bet. Thanks, Krista. That's a great opportunity to chat with you and to be on your show. So thanks so much for giving us this forum to share our story. Well for any of our listeners that want to try out any of the Bond Pet Foods initial products that Rich just mentioned. Use the code WOL10 to receive a 10% discount plus free shipping at Bond Pet Foods Thanks again to the team at The Original Mine Pet Platter for sponsoring this episode.  Check out the ultimate mealware for all dog foods by going to https://minepetplatter.com/and be sure to use the code WOL10 for 10% off! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?