Hello everyone this is Krista with episode #134 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. According to a new survey released by Netflix when it comes to watching TV, four out of five members have watched Netflix with their pet, and the majority ,which is 61% finds pets to be the best binge partner, beating out parents, romantic partners, friends and kids. What series do you binge watch with your dog? Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Debra Hamilton is an attorney/mediator/author who helps passionate animal loving people have constructive discussions.  She gets enormous pleasure when people use her process when in conflict, to start listening for understanding, really hearing an alternate point of view and recognizing what they have in common.  This helps everyone find an easier path to working out differences.  Starting from common ground enables differences to be more collaboratively addressed in a constructive & positive manner. Hello there dog lovers! I am so glad that you can join us for yet another tail wagging episode of The Wag Out Loud pawdcast. And I am thrilled to be joined by Debra Hamilton, and she is going to cover how to have a conscious conversation in discussions over your dog. Debra, I want to welcome you to the Show and for sharing this very important information with us. Can you please introduce yourself and tell us why you enjoy focusing on mediation for animal conflict? Well, thank you, Krista. Thanks, everyone, for joining us here today because it is such an interesting concept, especially now, post COVID, where everyone's last nerve is frayed. And sometimes we're not our best selves. So when we have a conversation, it doesn't always turn out the way we'd hoped. And sometimes you don't have to put the genie back in the bottle. So when I was a litigating attorney, the genie back in the bottle wasn't really a concept. But I found that a lot of people who were friends, who had been friends for years, would fight over a dog and lose that relationship. And had they just had someone in the room to help them look back at the good times they had look forward at what they had hoped to have in the future, and help them address what was bothering them now really had them save relationships. So I stopped litigating. I relegated my pumps. And I actually help people explore how they feel in conflict, how they would like to feel, and also explore how what they might have done, impacted the other party and reflect on how the other party might feel. And then we have a conversation. So I either do conflict coaching for one party to help them resolve it with my help, or I mediate both parties to still get together and have them resolve their conflicts. Sounds like you're a psychologist as well. Well, no. I don't play one on TV. I simply know that everyone has one common ground when a disagreement over an animal occurs. And that usually is that they think they want to do what's best for the animal. And what you need to do is pull that out and see how we can find a common ground. Well, Deborah, when you and I first met, you mentioned that many people don't really have a clear understanding of the different methods of resolution that are even available to them. And that's why they just go right to litigation. So with your help, let's break it down. Who are your typical clients? And what kinds of disputes are they having over their dogs. So my typical clients are pet owners, any kind of pet owners, but for purposes of our audience here, I'll stick with dogs, when you're getting divorced, or your relationship is breaking up. If you make a plan on how to share the pet before you dislike your ex. That's always more helpful than trying to do it while you're fighting over everything. So many of my divorce attorney friends say they get through the children, they get through the couch and the dining room table, but they cannot get through the dog. And I was interviewed for Bloomberg magazine. Oh God in 2016. And my quote was a bold quote, and it really still resonates today. Unfortunately, your pet doesn't hate your ex. Sort of like children, they don't really hate your ex either. So if you have a dog who doesn't like to go to a kennel, if you can work out having the dog go to your ex when you go on vacation, how great is that? But that does take getting over being right to getting it right. Because you want to get it right for the dog. You don't want to be right. You don't want to make sure you get everything you want. You want to make sure you think about what's best for the pet. I also do landlord/tenants. So we have disagreements with emotional support animals where they're allowed to go, what they're allowed to do. Also with animals of certain breeds, especially dogs, that you know, you have to have a conversation and really, landlords come to me to help put language together to help clients understand what the rules are. And then we had conversations between the landlord, the administration and the tenants to talk about what life with an animal in an apartment building should be because everyone really needs to accommodate everyone. It's not just me accommodating you. Are you accommodating me? I have a program with a colleague of mine, Gary Norman, where we talk about accommodating the accommodator. So if you're in a building with an emotional support animal, there are certain rules that you have to follow with respect to the people who are in that building. Who bought in that building, because there's no dogs allowed. You have to accommodate them. Yes, they're accommodating you, but you have to accommodate them, as well as that. It's a mutuality that never gets discussed. I also have breeder/owner, handler, rescue contracts that no one ever reads, ever. I tell you people walk through my door. And they either say I never read the contract because I wanted the dog and I was rescuing the dog. So why should I read the contract? And there are onerous clauses in there that nobody, nobody ever reads. It really makes for a difficult time for everyone. And I always say to people, please read it before, please ask questions. And if in fact, someone says to you, well, I never enforced that paragraph, then tell them to take it out. Nobody ever does. So these are the kinds of things that come to my office. Usually, people think to go to litigation, because it's a contract issue, I'll go to court, I'll enforce my contract, or I'll have the contract voted null and void. Well, this is a really expensive proposition Krista, as you well know, we've talked about this. So if you can get to a place where you can have a conversation with somebody holding a safe space for your side of the story, and the other party’s side of the story, you can often see where it went off the rails, put it back on the rails and go forward. Absolutely. And Debra, do you ever see situations where maybe a veterinarian is facing malpractice, or any pet service provider, you know, maybe a groomer injured a dog, you know, that kind of thing? Well, as I stopped talking about the cases I had, I said, Well, I didn't handle the groomer, the kennel or the veterinarian cases where dogs can be injured in their care. Because I could go on forever. On some of the things that I've seen, people have disagreements about dog walkers, dog groomers, veterinarians, vet techs, you name it, people have had disagreements with them, they all come through my door. And the good thing about what I do is I talk to both sides of the issue and work with them to teach them how to, if not be able to work, the disagreement out with Krista. Next time that disagreement comes up, they have better skills to handle it with the next person. And I have to tell you, most of the people who have come through my door, who have disagreements with veterinarians, usually just don't want it to happen to anyone else. I would like to work with a veterinarian, however, and I'm going to say this, in all honesty, truthful, the veterinarian likely wants to speak with you. But unfortunately, I'm an attorney. So I can say this, their attorneys won't let them. So then you have to go through their malpractice insurance, which is not in the business of really making it easy for clients to get a discussion or any sort of satisfaction or information about what happened to their pet. That's not what they're in it for. And so it makes it really difficult. And then it escalates. Unfortunately, it gets the veterinarian, who would probably like to sit down to talk to you, but is handcuffed by the insurance companies. I have three cases like that right now. And I'm working with attorneys to de escalate so that the clients cannot spend $10,000 on litigation, but rather find out the information they should be given. It's absolutely imperative for them to understand what happened to their pet. And then to have everyone decide what is the best interest and outcome going forward? What kind of protocols Can I help you put into this doesn't happen again, what kind of protocols are you going to put in? And let me know because most of the pet owners want to be part of the solution if you invite them. But that isn't something that's commonplace in veterinary medicine yet. I'm working on it. You go girl. Well, as you said it in all of our lives, it would be so nice to be more proactive. But human nature is more Oh, that's not going to happen to me. So, I love what you're doing in saying, yeah, it could and might and possibly will happen to you. So we need to have measures in place so that when disagreements do happen, again, it's human nature to just have emotions skyrocket, you probably can't think clearly, your negotiating skills are lacking. And that's where you come in. So I just love what you're doing. Are there other people like you that just focus on animal conflict? Are you one of the few? Well, I'm one of the few that don't take it immediately to guns, you know, go to litigation, write the nasty letters and start the whole thing, because you make a lot more money if you litigate as an attorney. However, if that's not what I'm in it for, I'm in it to help my clients have closure. I want my clients to have closure. I want them to be heard, respected, understood, so their point of view, have the ability to have a conversation so they hear respect and understand the other party's point of view, be it their breeder, be it their veterinarian, be it their groomer. And then we find a way forward. So for me, the process you want to put in place is I call it stop, drop and roll because it's easy for when you're in this negative place, and everything is really blowing up in your brain. Stop talking and listen. There was a gentleman on the other day who said, You know, I always tell my clients Oh, it was the Sisters in Law. They were discussing negotiation, which is the first piece, which just has people throwing out ideas on how we can make this work doesn't necessarily ever listen, but throw out ideas. So the the Sisters in Law podcast, they said, Well, you know, I'd really just like to have someone listen first, because if you listen first, you get a lot more information. And if you ask open ended curious questions, it really makes it clear what you are looking for, because you're hearing all the information you need. So the first part of my conflict resolution playbook is stop talking and listen, and listen for understanding that responds. Krista, you and I have talked about this before, most people listen just to get those zingers in. And that's that short term high conflict response that Amanda Ripley speaks about in her book, High Conflict. If you want to make a resolution, if you want to move forward in a more positive way for both you and the other party, then you want to have good conflict where Yeah, you can disagree. But you can disagree in a way that keeps the animal your main focus in the animal is thriving under your discretion, not standing still. I mean, I always say that the Ringling Brothers litigation was outstanding except the elephants stood still and didn't get anything and some mediator worth his salt would have at least had the ability to have Ringling Brothers do certain things to make the elephants lives easier, year by year by year, just by having a collaborative conversation. And that never occurred. So for me, stop talking and listen is important drop the need to be right. Nobody makes you wrong, you are right. the way you're perceiving information is correct. And then when you get more information by listening, you can even be even more correct and make a better decision. And then I always say that sometimes people say things in the heat both you and the other party. So you know, let it roll off your back. And if you've said something that you wish you hadn't do the right thing and say, You know, I think I need to back up and recognize when I told you this, this and this, that was really very destructive to our finding a way through this conflict. So I want to apologize. It is amazing when veterinarians apologize or clients apologize, how they make such better headway toward resolution and solution, which not only helps them for their pets, but helps pets in the future. This makes so much sense and we can use this information in so many parts of our lives. Debra, we are gonna we're gonna take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Sponsor Ad I'd like to thank our friends at HAPPYBOND for sponsoring this episode. 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And we left Debra talking to us about her stop, drop and roll. And how do we gain these listening skills, Debra, because many of us don't have them. You know what it starts with grieving. I know everyone’s big buzzword now is being mindful. But you really do have to be mindful and grounded and recognize that the more information you allow yourself to receive, instead of giving, the better informed you will be for going forward. So I always tell my clients, you want to be the one who listens first. Because then when you go back to Krista to talk to her after she has dumped her bucket, so to speak, you can point out at the beginning of that conversation where you agree, we agree that we love Fluffy, we agree we want the best thing for Fluffy. We agree that the outcome was not what any of us wanted. And so these are things that we have in common. And I want to just highlight that for you. So right there, you defuse the fury, at least a little bit. And then you can address the things, you know, was it my fault? Was it you know, some congenital thing, whatever it is, was it the you know, the dog jumped and cut his paw or whatever at the kennel or at the groomer or whatever it is that you're arguing about? You know, there are things that occurred and the art of having an educated conversation has been totally lost. And that's why I've mentioned it before, but serves it deserves mentioning again. Great book by Amanda Ripley, she wrote High Conflict, she talks about how you can get so much done. If you engage in good conflict. It's like good trouble that John Lewis would tell you to get into good trouble is where you good conflict is where you want to make sure you are listening for understanding. You're asking for confirmation of what you're hearing, you're reflecting back what somebody says so that they know you heard them. And then that really diffuses the situation. I always tell my clients, I want you to go I want you to listen, I want you to take notes. I want you to tell Krista what you heard her say, and then say to her, you know you've given me so much information here. Can we talk so today's whatever day it is, two, three days from now we talk two or three days from now at a similar time and really delve into what I found what I think and nine times out of 10 people will say fine, the only problem is then Krista you have to call that you have to because it does two things one, it allows you to digest the information you receive. And it allows you to craft a less argumentative, more collaborative conversation going forward. Makes complete sense. So in the eyes of the law, our dogs still considered property? Well, in divorce law, in certain states, they're being elevated to something more than a chair because they do take the well being of the pet into consideration. So that would be Illinois, California. I think New York is even contemplating it, and Alaska. However, for all intents and purposes, especially in veterinary medicine, and in grooming and in a kennel, they're still considered property. And so you know, we all know that our pets are not our chairs, they are our companions, they are family members. So to us they're much more but they have not changed under the law yet. What you need to do is you need to make sure that if you're leaving your dog with anyone or make sure you know who they are, most people do more investigation and quality analysis on buying a refrigerator that on the kennel that they dropped their dog off at the groomer they dropped their dog off at or the veterinarian they dropped their dog off at or even worse, the rescue they rescued their dog from the shelter they take their dog from or the breeders they get their dog from. So if we did as much homework on getting our dogs as we do or getting our refrigerators, we would be much better off. You're right. So are you suggesting that we have our dogs in our wills or in our trust for the what if something happens to me? Well, I'm so glad you brought that up because some of the biggest conflicts that come up are what happens to the dog. If something happens to you? Every Wednesday night at 6:30, I hold a free call. It's called a MAAP community call where we talk about navigating the journey your pet takes. That’s. why it is called a map. And your your pet takes when something happens to you, because most people put everything like you just said in their will. And I'm a little flippant, you and I both know that. So I always say, I'm glad you know, you're going to die. Because if you don't die, the terms you put in your will will not come to fruition to care for your pet. So let's think about that. So I had a serious accident, I'm in a coma. I'm suffering from dementia, I'm suffering from some disease that makes me too weak to care for my dog. But does that mean I don't want my dog with me while I'm trying to recover? Absolutely not. The reason I made this plan because I broke my ankle, and I had nine dogs and nobody to care for them. My husband said he was caring for me, not nine dogs, which was legitimate, right. But I just always assumed nothing would happen to me. It's like pulling teeth though. And I know my trust and estate colleagues Don't even ask about this, when people come in, they do put the terms in the will. But they don't talk to people about making a plan making a pet trust outside the will that kicks in in case they break their leg. And they have to hire someone to take care of their dog, or they have dementia, which means they'd like their dog to stay as long as it can with them. And maybe their entire life as long as they're able to live with it safely, right. And pay somebody to come over and take care of it a neighbor or something like that. And if you have disease, if you're fighting cancer, there's so many commercials, we've all seen them where the people come home to do the new commercial, right, and the dog is there while she's having the treatment on her arm at home. And I go Yes, and my mom had cancer and I'm telling you that you don't feel very well when you're going through chemotherapy. So you might not be able to walk the dog or feed the dog regularly. So that's another time where you need to put people in your plan for your pet to care for your pets, that leaves a pet in place because you really want it or not even I don't think we have time enough to go into what you need to do if you live in California with the fires, what you need to do if you live in Louisiana with the hurricanes and the floods. The tornadoes in the Midwest, you know, so many things that you have to plan for for your pets. Because some people really get angry, how could they ever leave their dogs behind during a hurricane, you know, with the flooding? And they go because they didn't make a plan to go somewhere that would take dogs. And if your dog isn't crate trained, you know this Krista, if your dog isn't crate trained, they will take it to the shelter. And so a lot of people are you know, anti crate. But if you don't have a crate trained dog, they can't go to the shelter, right. And there's only a certain number of dogs who can go and shelter. So if you have the ability to go to a hotel, you need to know what hotels are close enough or out of harm's way early, not late, make a reservation that you can cancel if you don't need it. But that you can make sure you can get away with your dogs. It's just simple planning for the what ifs. It is for the what ifs and and the thing that drives me nuts, I speak to a lot of trust in the state attorney. So everyone on this call and you go to your trust in the state attorney to make your will tell them. I'd also like to talk to you about a Pet Trust. Now it could cost maybe depending on where you live $1,000, $5,000, $1,000 probably, you know the South. $5,000 in New York and California. But it's really well worth it because it really sets you up to take care of your pets, whether you're dead or alive. So it really is an important piece that you need to have. And I always tell people if they come to the MAAP community, and if we have or we have two day weekends where we do all of the work, so you can take it to your trust or state attorney and say this is what I want in my Pet Trust. Because people just don't know what they don't know. But they know what they want. And there's so much that people don't think about I mean, so if you're a big breeder of dogs, where do you want those dogs to go? Who do you want to get them? If you have one dog? Who do you want to get them? And if you've bought a dog from a breeder that is co-owned, are you able to give that dog to your neighbor does the contract say you have to give it back to the breeder. And if it says you have to give it back to the breeder if you have a transparent conversation with the breeder and then leave it with the neighbor because that's the best way to the dog. These are all kinds of things we talk about. Yep, avoiding conflict. There it is, again, that conflict. Yep. You mentioned that you have a MAAP community call every week. Can you talk to us about this genius thing called the MAAP Blueprint that you've created? So the MAAP Blueprint is all the documents you need to put together to hand to your trust and state attorney so they know what you want. So it stands for something which is why it's called MAAP. that we all make mnemonics for things, right? So the M stands for MAKING A PLAN, we have to first sit down to make the plan you want for your pet? Do you want your pet to have extraordinary means taken to keep it alive? If it gets very sick? Do you want your dog or cat to live everyday to the fullest? And then when they give you that look, do you want them to be put to sleep? they need to know. So that's the make the plan, you need to then address the needs of each of your pets. If you only have one, It's simple. If you have like four or five, every single dog has to have their needs addressed. So what medications they're on when they're young, probably not much when they're older, more, are they afraid of thunder? Are they good with other dogs? Are they not so friendly to strangers do they run away all the time, all that information makes it so much easier for those dogs to be re homed in the right kind of situation. So many dogs, you and I both have seen on the Internet of constantly posting where people have passed away and the dogs have no home and the family can't take it. Most people believe their son, their daughter, their niece or nephew are going to take their dogs and cats and sometimes they do. But sometimes they can't. So what you want to do is you want to make sure you have a plan in place that you make the plan you address the needs of the pet, what's the pet good at you appoint caregivers. So those would be one family member and two or three others. So the others would be a neighbor who’s nearby, or a rescue that you got the dog from or a rescue for that breed of dog, or the breeder of that dog, whomever is going to be available to take that dog and make sure to either keep it for the rest of its life. Or make sure it's re homed if that's what you need. And then when you write all this down, you have to PUBLISH IT. that's what the P stands for in MAAP. You have to publish it with your attorney, you have to publish it with your vet, you have to publish it with your family and all the caregivers. So they all know who they are. So they can make sure that if they can't rise to the occasion, they know the other two or three people who are your caregivers that they can reach out to. So there's always something there. And now with COVID It seems that you need to have your next door neighbor be the first line of defense because if you're taken to the hospital, because you're ill so many dogs were taken out of apartments because people went to the doctors here in New York, went to the doctors were admitted to the hospital. The neighbor took care of the dog for a week or two but then said enough’s enough called animal care and control Animal Care control took the dog, the dog was held for the statutory period of time five to seven days. And then it is given to a rescue and once the rescue gets the dog. If there's no way I mean you're on a ventilator you're not calling so they don't know who this dog belongs to, or if this dog's been abandoned. And so they place it once they place it. As all of you who have rescued a dog, you cannot get that dog back. So if I get sick and I come out of the hospital two months later, and my dog’s have already gone through the system, I will never see it again. That would be a bad day. That's a very bad day for so many people. Yeah, but it's reality. it happens every day. And people don't know it. I mean one woman broke her hip and she was asking what animal care and control is doing. She had a beautiful, beautiful Afghan nine year old Afghan she'd had since it was a puppy and they said oh it'll be here when you get out. It wasn't it had been put through Afghan rescue was adopted and and she was devastated. She was 79 years old. This was her last dog that was nine years old. And you know we talked about this before we got. on the call but people have different opinions. And so some of the people said well you shouldn't have had a big running Afghan at 79 years old. it needed a young family. that really isn't part of the conversation we need to have. those are the kinds of things that are what would Amanda say, they’re conflict hijackers. they really just see that conflict and so we really need to make sure we keep our pets with us if we can. Well that is a great close right there. Again, this is the MAAP. that's M as in Mary, A , A, P as in Paul Blueprint. And Debra you have shared some great information that we all need to think about if we love our dogs, we we have to think of the what ifs. So Debra, where can everyone find out more information about you? Hamilton Law and Mediation and you're a podcaster as well. you have the Why Do Pets Matter Podcast? Yes, I do. So they can go to hamiltonlawandmediation.com or they can go to whydopetsmatter.com One word .com. and come and listen to some of the podcasts. we talk about. why pets matter and why people get into Krista, like you who's going to get why people get into the pet industry, why pets matter to them and how they Help people live better lives with their pets. And often I talk to attorneys who think being able to have this conversation, which is my first love. Making sure people can have a conversation, when they're angry about something that involves the animal is the best way to save the animal. And I guess everybody on this call would be really into that. They want to make sure whatever is best for the animal is what happens. And that may be what they're thinking. But I always say there's my way, there's your way, Krista, that and then there's a third way that's even better. I love it. Well, Debra, thank you so much for all that you do. I think we're giving listeners a lot to think about. And I encourage everyone to check out Debra. And again, that's hamiltonlawandmediation.com. Debra, thank you so much for being here today. Oh, you're very welcome. If any of the listeners want to come to a MAAP program, just go to hamiltonlawandmediation.com you can sign up. We don’t sell anything. So you're not going to get lots of emails except we'll let you know when every one of the Wednesday evenings come up so that you can either attend or listen later. They're all recorded.     Instagram: @WhyDoPetsMatter          Facebook: www.facebook.com/HLawMediation/          LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/debrahamilton413         Twitter @HLawMediation         Podcast WHYDOPETSMATTER.com Sounds great! Thanks again to the team at HAPPYBOND for sponsoring this episode. See why dog behaviorist, Cesar Milan also recommends this incredible formula by going to HappyBond.com and use the code WOL20 for 20% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About it page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health or nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?