Hi there this is Krista with episode #127 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. are you enjoying our podcast and the topics that we cover? Would you like to be a part of the conversation? Well, I'm bringing back past guests on the Clubhouse phone app to revisit hot topics from the Show. And of course, all dog lovers are invited to take part by asking questions or commenting. We've had some great discussions with lots of interaction, and we'd love to have you join us. If you've already joined Clubhouse, be sure to become a member and follow the Wag Out Loud Club. Or if you're interested in joining Clubhouse and just need an invite, let me know and I can text that to you. Clubhouse is super easy and lots of fun! Can dogs eat nuts? Well, I'd say for the most part, dogs should avoid eating nuts. Most nuts aren't technically toxic for dogs, but they are high in fat, making them difficult for dogs to digest in large quantities. And too much fat in a dog's diet can cause upset stomach and even lead to pancreatitis. Most commercial nuts are also packaged with salt and other chemicals, which can dehydrate or even poison dogs. The absolute worst not offender is the macadamia nut. NEVER EVER give your dog macadamia nuts, as they are the most toxic, even in limited quantities. Just a few macadamia nuts can cause real short term neurological problems for dogs such as tremors, dizziness, or even temporary paralysis. To play it safe, that's why I encourage that dogs avoid eating nuts all together. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition and overall well being. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr. Tori Countner is a small animal integrative veterinarian in Southern California. Dr. Tori believes that pet parents shouldn’t be overwhelmed with how to care for their companions, and aims to teach simple and tangible ways to incorporate better health and wellness into their daily lives. She lives in San Diego with her husband and two dogs. Hello dog lovers back for a third time because she always has such great info to share is Dr. Tori Countner and she is going to introduce us to Gua Sha Massage: More Than a Beauty Hack. Dr. Toryi thanks so much for being with us again. Could you please introduce yourself and tell us why you started your practice? What did you see that was lacking in traditional veterinary medicine? Yes, so thank you so much for having me on. It's always so fun to be here. I'm Dr. Tori Countner and I started Balanced Pet Vet as kind of a reaction to what I saw in general practice. I saw a lot of older dogs, you know, arthritic older dogs, and they couldn't move as well. And they were just kind of aches and pains that really diminished their quality of life. And so I wanted to seek out another way to help them just by instead of just throwing medications at them. So I got trained in acupuncture, laser therapy, and now I do a lot of Gua Sha massage and a lot of integrative therapies that hopefully help prevent aches and pains and extend their quality of life. And you know, through diet, supplements and these other modalities we can really help our dogs in their golden years and throughout their life and with preventative medicine. So that's why I started Balanced Pet Vet and yeah, everybody's really responded well to it. And I hope to kind of incorporate this more and more into veterinary medicine. Yay. And I wish you were closer to me. I'm in Colorado and Dr. Tori is in the LA area. But yeah, San Diego, San Diego, San Diego. No, I kind of bounced back and forth. But now now I'm in mainly San Diego. A few reasons. Yeah. Wonderful. Well, Dr. Toryi you're the one that suggested this topic of Gua Sha massage and I had never heard of it before even I didn't know it was even being practiced on people. So can you break it down? What exactly is it? Yeah, so it's been around for about 2000 years in traditional Chinese medicine TCM and it's a way to relieve stagnation, heat, relieve tense muscles but most recently in the beauty world as people have been seeing Gua Sha around, it's these stones and it's similar to kind of those roller those cool rolls like the Jade stones and Rose Quartz stones that you can use on your face to help decrease wrinkles, make your face look a little bit brighter, or maybe a little bit younger. So it's really taken off in the beauty world, most recently in the past couple of years, like I said, especially for wrinkles and kind of smoothing out that collagen, and having a younger look. But there's also behind that, there's a lot of research being done on the fascia and the connective tissue, that collagen and releasing tension and getting new circulation new cells in there. And that's what really helps your face look a little bit younger. So there is body Gua Sha as well. And that's, that's what's been around for, you know, 1000s of years in traditional Chinese medicine, and my own acupuncture, my own human acupuncturist was doing that, you know, on my face, but also on my low back, because I have a lot of low back pain. And it really gets into that fascia, that connective tissue that lies underneath the skin. And it's becoming more and more commonplace to use it on the body in humans. And so I thought, well, why can't we just use this on animals? So I tried it on my own dog first, you know, did a lot of research with in the human realm and talking to my own acupuncturist about Gua Sha. And I swear, it's really helped, you know, my own dogs relax, and also my patients kind of go over plateaus or break through plateaus if we're having chronic issues. And we're just not getting at the root of the problem. So, yeah, it's been around for 1000s of years. And it's been in the beauty world. And now we're seeing applications to human bodies, which is great. And on our companions as well. That is so cool. And when I actually did a Google search for Gua Sha on dogs, there is little information out there. So you're really making a splash. Yeah. And doing something new, I think. Yeah, I mean, there's really no informations so I thought, Oh, this is great. I'm like, because I did the same thing. You know, a couple years ago, I Googled it. And I was like, Oh my goodness, there's really nothing on this. But humans have fascia, that connective tissue underneath the skin and it surrounds, you know, all your organs, vessels, lymphatic system, everything. both humans and dogs, and all animals have that. So it's fairly easy to do at home. So I was just very surprised that it really hasn't caught on in the veterinary world yet. But veterinary medicine is unfortunately about 10-15 years behind human medicine. So that's probably the reason why as well. Great. Well wait to be the Trailblazer. I love it. What What made you want to add this to the tools in your tool belt? As far as treatments? What does this do that the other things like the cold laser and acupuncture don't provide? Yeah, so Gua Sha really gets at that connective tissue that lies right underneath the skin. That connective tissue is called fascia. And it surrounds muscles, tendons, ligaments, blood vessels, you know, lymphatic vessels, nerves, organs that basically surround and wrap your whole body kind of like saran wrap in this connective tissue. And when you have injuries, scar tissue, stiff muscles, you know, just chronic issues, that fascia can get really sticky and have adhesions. And it can get a little bit kind of like dehydrated a little bit. And that can cause decreased movement, it can cause the tendons, ligaments, muscles to not move as well. It can really cause stiffness, and that can cause pain. And with in terms of circulation, it can kind of slow down circulation, slow down lymphatic drainage and movement as well. So there was really nothing, you know, acupuncture can open up those areas, and certain trigger points. cold laser can relax the muscles and soft tissues underneath, but there was nothing to really smooth out that fascia. Again, kind of going back to the saran wrap analogy, if you bunch up saran wrap, it kind of like sticks together like adhesions. And so I wanted something that could smooth that out, and therefore smooth out everything that it engulfs, essentially. So that is why I love this tool to use. In humans, it's similar to foam rolling. I don't know if you or any of your listeners have done foam rolling. I do it for my IT bands on my on thigh and it feels really good and its a really good release. But for our dogs, we can't really foam roll as well as we can in humans, right, or cupping, which is something else that can kind of release that stagnation that's in the fascia. that doesn't really work in our animals as well. So, to me doing the Gua Sha massage and using that tool to smooth out the underlying fascia that was something extra that really needed to be done to help the whole body move better. And with this past year, in the pandemic, I wanted something that I could give my clients at home and give people at home that they could do. If they weren't able to come into the office, you know, I was unable to go into some people's homes. And so I would teach them over zoom, how to do it on their own animals at home. That's fantastic. And Dr. Tori, what does the tool actually look like? Can you describe it? Yeah, so it's in, you know, 1000s of years ago, they would use either like a horn or spoon. So it's kind of like a flat... A lot of tools I use are, they look like little hearts. And so they have rounded edges, curved edges, and it's flat. And they can come in like Rose Quartz, or Jade, or even beyond stone or byond stone. I don't know if I'm pronouncing that one, right. But they, they feel cool to the touch usually. And so it's hard to, you know, talk about, but you basically glide the tool along the skin surface with the with the direction of the fur. And so you can do a little pressure, you can do a little bit deeper pressure, but you just want to, you know, kind of glide along the skin surface with this tool. If you look up human Gua Sha, body Gua Sha, they'll say you scrape it . In our companion animals, we don't want to go that far and do that much pressure, but you're basically just, you know, again, kind of like a spoon, or the flat little tool. And if you guys Google Gua Sha tools, you'll you'll probably see a lot of variations. There's just a flat tool gliding along the skin surface to smooth that fascia if you think about oh yeah, I'm trying to move out that saran wrap that lies underneath the skin. So just kind of like a flat tool that that helps with that. Wow, okay, we're gonna have to look that up. This I think is a great place to take a quick commercial break. So we will be right back and talk more about Gua Sha. SPONSOR AD A big thank you to the team at Adored Beast for sponsoring today’s episode. I am a HUGE fan of Adored Beast because they offer a one-of-a-kind line of high-quality, Human-grade, natural products that don’t just treat the symptoms of your dog’s ailments, but also the root causes. With an impressive line of natural, holistic treatments, these homeopathic products address core issues, support healing and aid in preventing reoccurrence. Addressing Gut Health, Allergies, Liver, Bladder and Nutrition, they offer a 100% No-Risk Money Back Guarantee. I especially love their Turkey Tail Mushroom Liquid Double Extract, their leaky gut protocol, Fido’s Flora probiotic, and phyto synergy super antioxidant.  You really can’t go wrong with any of their quality products.  Support your pet’s health today by checking out  https://adoredbeast.com/ AND Be sure to use the code WOL15 for 15% Off on any of their high-quality natural products that will support and heal your adored beast. Welcome back, everybody. We are speaking with Dr. Tori Counter, The Balanced Pet Vet and she is teaching us all about Gua Sha massage for our dogs. And this is just absolutely fascinating. I can't wait to get one of these myself. For me, which I think would improve since I'm about to turn 55 Don't we all want to look better? And of course, Winston. So I think we just did a Clubhouse recently about pain relief treatments for dogs. And you mentioned Gua Sha as one of your treatments that you offer. And you said something really interesting that doing this type of massage helps with your dog’s knowing where their limbs are. Can you talk more about that? Yeah, so proprioception is that fancy word for kind of knowing where you're placing your limbs and a lot of dogs that have neurologic issues, you know, spinal disc issues like IVDD. You’ll notice that they'll either drag their foot or their foot will or their paw will turn over and they won't be able to turn it back up right. So they don't understand or they're Just kind of not spatially aware or their nerves aren't aware that the foot is in the improper position. So they have been doing a lot of research on fascia in humans, that by kind of, because the fascia surrounds all the nerves, the vessels, all of that, if the that fashion gets sticky, it can kind of decrease that communication, you know from the nerves down to the paw, all of that. So they're calling, they meaning the Fascia Council of Human Medicine is calling fascia the biggest sensory organ in the body, because it really does help with nerve connection, conduction, it helps kind of put all the pieces together. So if the fascia is bunched up, there's adhesions, if there's not, it can slow that down. And so there was some research done that it can help with better placement or better awareness of where you're in humans, where your hands are, where your feet are, and just kind of spatial awareness because everything is flowing better. In Chinese medicine terms, the qi is flowing better, there's no more stagnation, there's less stagnation, and therefore you can be more spatially aware. So that's huge in our animals. Again, with I see it all the time with back dogs, herniated discs where they're a little bit ataxic or wobbly. And their proprioception or their spatial awareness isn't as good as it should be. So using this, you know, showing my clients how to use it at home on a daily basis, can really help with that nerve conduction and for for lessening that ataxia, and getting them more back to normal That is fascinating. So what areas of the body on a dog would this apply to? I assume that it would not be good on bony areas, right? Yeah, so I would try to avoid bony areas. So the ones that are most prominent are along the spine, their little hip bones, knees, elbows. So what I usually show clients is I can place one hand, either kind of like over the spine, or over the knee, or keeping the skin taut above where I'm about to massage. And just go along, I call it the meaty parts, or the muscular parts, the soft tissue parts of the body. If you happen to go over, you know, a hip bone, don't worry, dogs are resilient, and you probably aren't going to go that hard, where it's going to hurt them. So usually I start at the front of the animal and I do the neck, and I hold on to their little head, the skin is taught and I go along their neck, and then I move down to kind of their thoracic or where their ribs are. Depending on how skinny they are, you can do a little bit softer pressure over some ribs. But that's a really big place where those muscles get pretty tight. And then the low back right after the ribs stop, that is basically their core. So that can get extremely tight, whether it's back issues, front limb issues, hip issues, knee issues, that is the biggest place or the most common place, I see tightness in those muscles in their low back area. So I really tell clients to get in there on a daily basis. And that really helps release stagnation and make them feel good. And then going back down the legs, you know, you want to avoid some shoulder areas in the elbows, knees, hips, that type of thing. Okay, and how do dogs react? Are they awake and just chilled out or do some fall asleep while you're doing this? All of the above. So I have like, obviously this example I have two dogs at home, my French Bulldog, I can barely I can maybe get like, two to four needles in him and he just doesn't react well. So what I do and what I have been doing is when we're sitting on the couch watching TV or snuggling in bed, I will use the Gua Sha tool on him. And he loves it. He responds really well to it. I do think I have some videos of him where I've been trying to Gua Sha him and he just he's like putty in my hands. So they absolutely love it. Or you know, he loves it. He's just very reactive to the needles and doesn't do well with them. A lot of the other dogs absolutely love it. It's it's a really, it's like petting them but with a purpose if that makes sense. So many dogs love it if they have a sore area or they're postsurgical you know, you can avoid those certain areas or do a little bit less pressure on those areas. But overall, it does have a relaxing… Anecdotally I've seen a relaxing side effect I guess, you could say, of the Gua Sha and they definitely relax. And a lot of clients say that, you know, they see that at home too, that it helps them relax, calm down, and they love it. That's great. And that's a perfect bonding experience with your dog as well. Can you use this technique on dogs of all ages? Yes. So I've used it on puppies that just as a preventative measure, and you know, up to, you know, super old dogs. The only things that I would say be aware of, or is there any, like skin issues hotspots, if there are any lumps or bumps that are new, or you're not aware of, you know, always talk to your vet about kind of what those lumps or bumps are, just avoid those areas. And then, yeah, if there is a place where they're extra sore, then you can either do light pressure, or just, you know, move on to different areas. But yeah, I've used it from puppies to extremely old dogs. Okay, that's good to know. And with your clients, how long does a session last? And how often do you usually do treatments? So I incorporate it with my whole integrative medicine, treatment. So I do acupuncture, laser, and then I finished with Gua Sha. Sometimes if the animals are a little bit nervous around needles, I will do the Gua Sha first. And they’ll accept the needles. And so, you know, that kind of depends on how long I see the clients. But I tell clients, they can do it a couple times a week, you know, three times a week, I don't want it to be a big like annoyance, but like a big to do for them. So I say if you guys are hanging out on the couch, just do a couple of strokes where you can. I'd rather have them incorporate the Gua Sha easily into their daily life, than have it seem like a chore. If the dog is really hurting, then I'll say, you know, you really got to work on this hind limb and the rest of the body, you know, for 20 minutes, three times a week to really get good results. I have clients though that just do it kind of before bed time every single day. And that really, really helps. So it's just kind of again, going back to the foam rolling analogy. You can do just like a couple of foam rolls or a couple of strokes every single day or like three times a week. And you're gonna get really good results. Even if you know there's nothing wrong with your dog just for preventative measures. I mean, if you just do it once a week for 20-30 minutes, that's going to be extremely beneficial overall for their health. Great. Well, I'm excited because you mentioned that we can do it at home and that you can teach us. So yeah, where do we learn this technique? Do you have any tutorials that you recommend? Yeah, so on my website https://www.balancedpetvet.com/. I do have a few Gua Sha tutorials that you guys can see how I do you know some maintenance, see how to angle the the tool and all of that. I also am coming out with a course later this Fall about Gua Sha and maintenance and different body parts and lymphatic drainage that can help with that. So that will be later this Fall. But right now going to my website or even my Instagram, I have some tutorials there. all at https://www.balancedpetvet.com/ That is great Dr. Tori! That is so cool about this course that you have coming out later this Fall all about Gua Sha. And you're going to dig deep about the technique itself. So this is going to be a deep dive much more explanatory than you know the video tutorial you mentioned on your website. So Dr. Tori is offering an amazing deal for this course. So if you use the code WOL20 you will get 20% off this Gua Sha course. Dr. Toryi what can they expect in this course? I love teaching people and I love educating people because I want to put the power back in my clients’ and pet parents’ hands. So they are going to learn about what fascia is, why it's important. How to do Gua Sha on your dog at home just for maintenance or for specific ailments, you know, neck issues, elbow dysplasia, back issues, hip dysplasia, you know, TPLO post surgery, you know, even like scar tissue that's been there for a while, and also lymphatic drainage. So we're going to kind of do it. We're going to do a deep dive into all things Gua Sha for your animals to help get you started and get going at home. This is great. And where do you recommend that we would buy a Gua Sha tool? My absolute favorite tool is called https://wildling.com/. The Empress stone. So Wildling Beauty is a company that does a lot of Gua Sha tutorials. So there's some Human ones if you guys want to check out the human gua Sha for your face. It really does help does it helps me with wrinkles like it helps with my jaw tension, it helps me relax. So I can only imagine how that feels for the animals. So that's the Wildling. I also like the heart shaped or the teardrop shapes of the Gua Sha tool from Herbivore Botanicals as well. The Wildling and Herbivore Botanicals. Perfect. I will include those links in the show notes. This is so exciting. Something I mean something old, but it's something new to a lot of people. How cool! Well Dr. Tori, I am so glad that you recommended that you speak about this because if I didn't know about it, I'm sure a lot of people are finding this all new information. And Dr. Tori is actually going to take a little break. She is about to have her first baby, which is so exciting. So thank you for squeezing this in. I'm sure your life is gonna change very soon. That's what I hear. So we're very excited, but it's gonna be different. Oh, well, we're thrilled for you. And hope everything goes well. Of course, we'll be following you with all of the pictures. Dr. Tori is great on Instagram. So definitely follow her @balancedpetvet. And we can't wait to see the baby pictures. Yes, thank you. Well thank you, Dr. Tori, we so appreciate everything that you're doing. And I'm sure we'll have you back yet again because you always are full of great information. Thank you and yes, I love coming on the pawdcast and I learn so much from your other episodes. So I'm so happy that Wag Out Loud is doing all the good work you're doing. Well, thank you. I really appreciate it and best to you and little baby. Thank you very much. Thanks again to our friends at Adored Beast for sponsoring this episode. Remember, they offer a 100% No-Risk Money Back Guarantee on all of their high-quality products. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain by supporting the needs of your adored beast by going to https://adoredbeast.com/ AND using the code WOL15 for 15% off Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode?