Hey there! This is Krista with Episode #173 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast and I think that you all know that your dog's urine contains markers, and that informs other dogs of their presence, their social standing and their sexual availability. But maybe you didn't know that male dogs lift their legs as high as they can, so they can distribute their message better, and allow their scent to travel further. And a study done a few years ago found that smaller dogs try to lift their legs even higher, so that they seem bigger to other dogs who may be around. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Daniel Schulof is an entrepreneur, activist, and science writer with a focus on exposing the conflicts of interest, bad faith, and shoddy science responsible for the chronic disease epidemics killing millions of pets every year. His 2016 book "Dogs, Dog Food, and Dogma" has been called "the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written" and his lectures and articles have been seen by hundreds of thousands of pet owners. He is the founder of KetoNatural Pet Foods and the Petfood Consumer Rights Council. Welcome dog lovers to yet another informative Wag Out Loud pawdcast episode. And today I am thrilled to have Daniel Schulof here. And he's going to talk about Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And Daniel, first of all, I want to thank you for being with us. You know, it's been a while since we've had you on the schedule. Yeah, look, the pleasure is home mine. I, you know, I've been fortunate enough to do more than a few podcasts interviews in my life. And I will tell you that you have the fullest calendar of any podcast host with whom I have ever dealt. And it's a credit to the work that you do. You have you have a full plate. Yes, I do. Well, thank you, Daniel, I appreciate that. Why don't we get started by having you introduce yourself? And I'd love for you to share why are you so passionate about disrupting the canine nutrition space? Because you actually call out those who are totally misinformed. Yeah, I mean, so by way of introduction, you're right. I'm, I wear a bunch of different hats. But they're all kind of in service of the same idea. And that idea is that the pet owning public has been misinformed in important ways about what the scientific record says about a variety of issues of serious importance pertaining to nutrition in dogs and cats. And that as a result of that there is harm accruing to the public, both to the pets. And of course, to the owners that love them and that are emotionally harmed when their animals get sick in unnecessary ways. Like I said, I wear a few different hats. Because I've got a pretty diverse background. And at the risk of patting myself on the back too much. I've got some diverse skills. I practiced law for a while I'm a lawyer. I've also started numerous entrepreneurial ventures, both for profit and nonprofit. And I've written a book and it's a big fat science book about veterinary nutrition stuff. And so as a result of all of that I've kind of got a unique knowledge base. And I like to think that I've got the unique skill set to make a difference on that issue that matters a lot to me. And so you know, I've founded a couple of companies, the most notable one is called Keto Natural Pet Foods. We Make Low Carb dog food. But yeah, I can tell you more about nonprofit stuff I could tell you about book stuff I can tell you about why all this matters so much to me, wherever you want me to take it. Great. Well, that's why you're here with us today. And yes, you wrote the book. It's the same title as this episode, Dogs, Dog Food and Dogma. And it has been referred to as the most rigorous and probing canine nutrition book ever written. That's pretty remarkable. I like to I'm proud of it. It took me four years is a big project for me. I began it. I mean, it really grew up from… the seeds of it was just a personal note taking exercise, honestly. And then fast forward like four years and I had like, changed careers, produced this 400 page book flown all around the country and you know, put this whole big thing together. But really it all began I was working as a lawyer, and I got my I grew up with dogs, but I got my first dog it was like My dog and I was a single guy living, you know, kind of yuppie big city, lonely type lifestyle, got this dog, he changed my life in a very positive way I got really into him. And through, you know, almost through kind of coincidental or just happenstance, I grew really interested in the subject of obesity in pets. And it sounds super weird and random. But I'm a recreational athlete, I do a lot of like endurance sports stuff, I run long and that kind of thing. And so I was doing, I'd always been interested in the science surrounding that how to get better at that kind of stuff. And it's sort of tied to the doggy world in those, you know, there's like a doggy analogue for that. And my dog was a Rottweiler, big, male, Rottweiler, and like quintessentially Rottweilery. He was intense, big, serious dog needed daily exercise is sort of the take home point here. And so, you know, I like exercise played a role in my personal life, I was trying to understand how to exercise him better, I'm starting to read the relevant studies on that topic. And then I get started learning about the problem of obesity, both with regards to my personal care for my dog, but then the bigger societal problem of it, how just how, the how significant the scale, the problem was, and what began as just me trying to understand what the study said about how to like exercise my dog best, became this big adventure, to try to explain why so many dogs in the country are overweight or obese, even though it's absolutely horrible for them. And even though pet owners have never before in the history of the world, cared more devoted more resources to their their dogs and cats, do you think, given everything we know about how bad obesity is in people and how much everybody knows it's bad for their animals, you’d think this would be the easiest thing in the world. And it's turning out to be the hardest thing in the world, it's more than half the dogs in the country are overweight or obese. So you and I have never met. And I've never had the privilege of meeting any of your dogs. And I'm not casting any aspersions. But as a as a purely numerical matter, it's more likely than not that your dog is over one of your dogs is overweight or obese, more than half that I do pick a dog at random, more likely it's going to be and it's worse for those animals than a lifetime of smoking is for a person. The studies had been done where they follow these dogs out throughout their entire lives. And they look at how long the fat ones live and how long the not so fat ones live. And it turns out that on a percentage basis, if your dog is just moderately overweight, so not like colossally clinically obese, huge animal, but moderately overweight, going to shorten its lifespan, on average by about as much as a human being that smokes cigarettes from the time they're 18 years old until the day they die. horrible problem. doesn't make sense to me. And I spent four years trying to understand the answer, basically. And that's what that's what my book was published in 2016. I've been gratified that it's gotten mostly positive feedback. And it does provide my attempt to explain why that kind of inexplicable situation has arisen. Well, Daniel, you mentioned that you started looking into obesity. And if we look at obesity in ourselves, we can say that poor nutrition and the lack of exercise definitely are the two contributors to that. And in your book, you're talking about scientific misinformation when it comes to animal nutrition, you know, or nutrition for our pets. So what do you think is the root of the problem when it comes down to it? So you're 100%, right, that you can impact fatness using a variety of levers, but kind of the two that moves the needle the most are diet and exercise, right? The main thesis of my book is that number one, the most powerful lever, and essentially the only one that really matters when it comes to dogs and cats is dietary carbohydrates. That consumption of dietary carbohydrate is essentially the fundamental cause of America's pet obesity epidemic, that the vast majority of pet food products being sold on the market today. Whether they are expensive ones or not so expensive ones are loaded up with carbohydrates for a variety of reasons. And the science shows both that what that does at a like molecular cellular level produces fatness. So the studies have been done where it's basically okay what happened a dog eats carbohydrate, what happens within its body that's different than when a dog eats protein, and that stuff's all been worked out. And it explains kind of a process of pathophysiology. Again, there's like kind of technical word that produces more fattening than consumption of other calories for calories and consumption of other nutrients. And so there's this big, fat scientific record. And we're talking about, you know, the same exact study, having been done something like six times last time, six times when I wrote the book, I'm not sure that it's more now a lot of folks have kind of moved away from this topic. But basically, it's really in the world of human nutrition. This is a hard like thesis to test, it's hard to get people to with rigorous control, eat a very specific number of calories, hold their activity levels exactly the same, but differ their macro nutritional intake, if they're taking in carbs or protein for a long enough period of time to measure the differences in their bodies, because people want some degree of freedom in their lives, right, they want to be able to eat what they want, they're not going to like live in what's called a metabolic ward, where we can, you know, evaluate their activity and make sure they're burning the same number of calories. In the world of dogs and cats, not that hard. Like, it's been done half a dozen times, where you just take two different groups of animals that are matched in every way, you make sure that their activity levels are exactly the same. In the world, dogs and cats are not that hard to do. And then you give them diets that are identical in every way, but one the same number of calories. But in one group, some more of those calories come from carbohydrates, and less from protein. And in the other group, it's relatively high protein, relatively low carbohydrate, but again, the exact same number of calories in the exact same amount of exercise out, every single time that study has been done, the same thing happens. The animals that are eating the higher carbohydrate diet get fat, and the animals that are eating the lower carbohydrate diet, don't get fat, right. It's a huge body of evidence. I'm like reading, you know, reading these studies, looking at this stuff, and I'm saying, okay, so this must be the missing link here. Why is nobody talking about this? Why is it that when you pick up a veterinary nutrition textbook, this is not a thesis or a subject that's covered in any significant amount of detail. These studies literally aren't discussed and are literally not sighted. And a big chunk of the book is my attempt to try to explain that why the heck would that be? This is a clear explanation for what we all recognize kind of the biggest nutritional problem in dogs and cats. And it's not in the textbook, what's going on here? And sort of the second half of the book is this big. It's a social exercise, trying to understand why we know what the science says, Okay, why are we not talking about that science? Right. Well, a lot of people don't even realize that dogs have no nutritional need for carbohydrates. Yet, the majority of these huge dry food/kibble manufacturers have between 30 or 60% carbohydrates. Do you want to talk about that? Well, yeah, yeah, you're first of all, you've got it exactly. Right. Both of those things are true dogs, unlike protein unlike fat. Unlike all kinds of proteins are made up of these nutrients called amino acids. And there's a bunch of different kinds unlike specific amino acids unlike specific vitamins and minerals. Dogs have no nutritional requirements for carbohydrates, super clear in the evidence. If you stop feeding a dog carbohydrates, absolutely nothing bad has ever been shown to happen. Not for dogs that, you know, sometimes people will say, if you run a low carb dog food company, sometimes people will push back on the notion that dogs don't need carbs and say, Well, what about you know, for energy, my dog is a big exercise dog. No. The studies have been done. They put a dog on a treadmill, and they put it and give it a high carbohydrate diet, and they give another dog on a treadmill, zero carbohydrate diet. And there's no real difference in the output. They just metabolize different nutrients for their energy to metabolize fat instead of carbohydrate. So both for exercise and for kind of any other conceivable reason, there's no need for carbohydrate. And when you think about it, and this is covered pretty extensively in my book, dogs’ evolutionary heritage suggests that it shouldn't require carbohydrate to get by in its diet. And that's because dogs are incredibly genetically similar to another but distinct species. Gray wolves. Gray wolves are the quintessential wild animals. Obviously, they're very dog like, obvious to the naked eye if you're not kind of trained up on this stuff. But what's like the degree of the similarity is kind of striking. In a chapter in my book, I lived with the Yellowstone Wolf Project, which is kind of the preeminent place in the United States for the study of grey wolves in the wild. And those people knew everything there is to know about wolves. And basically, wolves and dogs are two distinct species, like in the textbook. They're different species just like, you know, a human being and an orangutan. But they're so similar, that they can interbreed with one another, right? Yes, there are dog wolf hybrids to the tune of hundreds of 1000s of animals in the United States right now. Right. And that's not something that's like, actually kind of suggests they're not really two different species even like, that's like a lot of biologists will. That's how they describe the distinction between one species and another, can they successfully breed with one another. And, you know, at the risk of being weird, or gross or something, a human being and an orangutan cannot make a baby. If they mate that doesn't happen there but two biologically different, they're different species. That's not the case of dogs and wolves are incredibly similar. They're different in really two ways only. And this has all been worked out through genome sequencing studies, folks have figured out the domestic dogs genome, figured out the gray wolf genome and said, where are they the same way they're different. Two areas are different. One is the brain. And this is, think about it for a second is obvious one, you know, wolves are wild animals. And they have some degree of suggestibility in their behavior, but their brains are wired for to be wild animals really, whereas the dog has been through generations of selective breeding has developed the kind of brain and thereby the kind of behavior that we all know and love, they bond with people, etc. The other difference is the one that matters for this discussion, though, and that's that wolves don't digest carbohydrate very well at all. Daniel, I'm gonna stop you there because that's a great point. We are going to take a quick commercial break and we will be right back. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month's feature sponsor. Dr. Baker's canine System Saver is an outstanding all natural supplement that promotes healthy aging. Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions. This is one product that does so much. It's perfect for arthritis, hip dysplasia, and joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to Caninesystemsaver.com To relieve your dog's discomfort naturally. And as a bonus, wag out loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 At checkout. Welcome back, everybody. We're speaking with Daniel Schulof and we were just talking about the similarities of our modern day dog versus the gray wolf. They are direct descendants and share over 90% of the same DNA. So you just mentioned Daniel that the brain differences between wolf and dog. And now we're gonna get into the need of carbohydrates. So take it away. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, so dogs and wolves, they were the same species, they occupied the exact same genetic lineage up till essentially 10,000 years ago. So there is a dispute about it. But it's something like that. So for hundreds of millions of generations, they were the exact same species. And wolves continue to live as they've always lived. They live in the wild. And you talk to the folks the Yellowstone Wolf Project, or anyone else who knows the subject, well, they'll tell you they eat 0.00% carbohydrates. They eat essentially meat and nothing else. And, in fact, not just that they don't eat carbohydrates, but they don't eat it. And so their bodies aren't designed to metabolize this stuff very well. Unlike domestic dogs, and this is like kind of a second big difference between dogs and wolves. wolves don't produce one kind of enzyme in their saliva that both dogs and people produce called amylase. And amylase is used to break down carbohydrate molecules into individual molecules of glucose like, that's what happens when a complex carbohydrate goes from being in a loaf of bread to actually being in your blood. What it does is basically your digestive system breaks it down into individual molecules of glucose, like sugar. And amylase is like the what does the heavy lifting there, it's in your saliva. And it's like if you hold a piece of bread in your mouth for a while, it'll start to taste sweet. And the reason for that is because that's your salivary amylase Breaking down the chains of carbohydrate in that piece of bread into individual molecules glucose that taste sweet. And dogs over time, have evolved the ability to do that reasonably well. Wolves never have. So what we know from that is that up till 10,000 years ago, neither one of these species could consume carbohydrates in any significant amount. just over the past 10,000 years, which in the evolutionary scale thinks is the blink of an eye. Dogs have figured out through selective breeding, have gotten the ability to digest carbohydrate, they actually can pull nutrition out of it. That's not to say they can do it healthfully. And in fact, they cannot do it healthfully. But that's sort of how we know that like, no, a dog doesn't need carbohydrate, for energy, or for anything else there for 99.9% of their genetic evolution, they did just fine. wolves performed astounding amounts of physical work as a matter of daily existence. And they do it without any carbohydrate at all. And using fat as fuel correct? That's right, that is their primary fuel source and your body. a wolf’s body, dog's body has more than enough fat on hand at any given point, and all that the most extreme cases, to power all sorts of much more physical activity than any house pet would ever be asked to perform. Right. And Daniel, you believe that this carbohydrate consumption that most of our dogs have, is the main reason for most of the chronic diseases that we're seeing today? So I'll give you a quick bullet point summary of the state of the evidence on a variety of on obesity, I would say that the evidence is 10 out of 10, iron clad lock, that if you took dietary carbohydrate, out of the American pet food ecosystem, you would not have a significant obesity problem among pets. This study has never been done. This is Dan Schulof’s personal belief. But I would bet my house on it, you cannot make a dog get and stay obese. Unless you feed it carbohydrates. You could in a laboratory setting, stuff it, force feed it like a goose being made for Foie gras or whatever, with enough calories of fat and protein that you can make it that way. But its appetite and its natural homeostatic regulation is such that it will never just maintain that state. It will not consistently overeat. Whereas carbohydrates are quite different. So yes, I believe the carbohydrate at the 10 out of 10 Evidence couldn't be more clear is the fundamental cause of obesity. other chronic diseases that are common among pets, there are three where there's at least some degree of evidence. They are number one, diabetes, and other kinds of metabolic disorders like that. Right now, the standard of care obscenely, the standard of care for a dog that shows up with diabetes in the veterinary office is a prescription only pet food product, costs a fortune, and is kibble and it's about 40% digestible carbohydrate. And if you're anybody that knows anything about diabetes, and how it works, that should make your jaw fall open. Because what it means is that 40% of the calories that animal is taking in are going to enter the bloodstream as sugar, like carbohydrate during digestion doesn't matter if the complex carbohydrates, simple carbohydrate, any kind of digestible carbohydrate, during digestion becomes the exact same thing. Glucose, it's the one thing that a dog with diabetes cannot dispose of in its body appropriately, what diabetes is, is an inability to manage blood sugar spikes. And the one thing dietarily That causes the most pronounced blood sugar spikes is a big bolus of dietary carbohydrate. And yet, the prescription the standard of care in veterinary offices is feed this product that's 40% digestible carbohydrate. And even though the literature couldn't be more clear, couldn't be more of a, you know, an ironclad lock, either, that if you take all the carbohydrate out of the animal's diet, it’s postprandial blood sugar comes way down, and so it's need to have exogenous insulin shots goes way down as well. That's diabetes. There are others where it's like more tangential, there's promising evidence, but it's not. It would be irresponsible for me to say it's anything like those two, and those are like osteoarthritis, which has been found basically to track with obesity reasonably well. And I think stands to reason that if you get rid of the obesity problem, you get rid of the chronic osteoarthritis epidemic as well and kind of, you know, the one that gets a lot of attention, but the record is not as well developed yet is cancer. You know, if there’s any epidemic of non communicable diseases in the United States pet population that's worse than obesity, cancer, you know, you're talking about something like a quarter of the dogs in the country, maybe more depends who you ask, will get that disease in their lifetime. And there are communities of folks and scientific folks who believe that essentially what's going on there is dietary carbohydrate, becomes glucose during digestion. And glucose is the preferred source of fast growing tumors, that's what they feed on. If you take if you've ever had the, and you probably have had the unfortunate experience of bringing your dog into the vet, and having what's called a PET scan, performed on the animal to try to locate any tumors that might be in it’s body. What that process is, is basically what a PET scan is, is a machine looking for parts of your dog's body that are burning glucose for energy at a higher rate than the stuff around it, it shows up the colors up on the image, if you see like a specific spot that's burning a lot of glucose, that's what a PET scan is, and the tumors light up. Because tumors like glucose, they grow really fast. And glucose is like their rocket fuel. And so just like in the same way, that if you want to make sure that your diabetic dog doesn't have huge blood sugar spikes after a meal, you want to if you want to reduce the amount of glucose that's available for a tumor, you can just cut down the amount of carbohydrates in the diet, that stuff is a very coherent theory. And there are plenty of folks who are trying to develop the record around it. But it would not be responsible to say at this point, we know with clarity, that if you take the carbohydrate out of a dog's diet, it's cancer risk goes down. That's not something that record shows, but there's some degree of you for a problem that has we've struggled to come up with good explanations for it. If nothing else, it's like a very compelling place to be spending our scientific resources at this point. Sure. Well, Daniel, as we're coming to a close, if these dogs food companies that are including such high amounts of carbohydrates in their products know about this, what is the end game? Is it just for profit, and using cheaper materials and ingredients in their products? Yeah, so basically, the reasons that carbohydrate is so why I always say carbohydrates are the backbone of the US pet food ecosystem. And the reason that it is human food. Yes, that's right. That's right, it is quite so. But it's like kind of two main things, at least in the pet food world, but largely in the human world too. the first is cost. And it's the most important one, as somebody that now runs a pet food company, I can tell you with first hand knowledge that a calorie of meat based protein costs, something like at least something like eight to 10 times as much as the calorie of agriculture based carbohydrate, a calorie from corn, say. And so if you are to take a product that is 40% digestible carbohydrate, and turn that into 40%, if you're gonna swap out all that carbohydrate for meat based protein, the cost for the producer to make that product is going to skyrocket to the point that doesn't it just cut into their profit margins, it completely blows up the business model. You can't do it like if, you know, I'm not going to pick your favorite legacy kibble company, if they're going to try to roll out a zero carbohydrate product, they're going to price it at $400 a bag to make the same margin that they're making right now. So obviously a big part of the system for that reason. And then secondly, for a really long time. Those that make pet food thought you needed to use carbohydrates to actually make kibble like if you you know, there are a lot of people these days, I'm kind of one of them that thinks that it's bad for humans to eat carbohydrate too and if you're somebody that thinks that way, but you still think that carbohydrate rich foods taste really good. One thing that you tried to do is you try to make zero or low carbohydrate versions. And if you've ever tried or if anybody listening has ever tried to make a loaf of very low carbohydrate bread, like if you try to make bread without flour, you'll know that it doesn't work it like the dough falls apart is part of what carbohydrate does is this functional thing in food products when you heat it up, it gelatinizes and holds all the ingredients together and it makes dough into you know, biscuits or bagels or whatever. And kind of like in a very basic level, like kibble was made basically the same way you mix all these ingredients together and heat them up and then you suck out the water You get little nuggets. And the nuggets are held together by carbohydrates. And so for a long time, if you take the unfortunate nutritional science out of the equation, if you take the chronic diseases out of the equation, it's a fantastic innovation, it makes this great shelf stable product, very convenient, provides the dog with the nutrition that it needs to prevent development of deficiencies. And so for a long time, it was like this is, this is a great thing, and the whole pet food industry is built around it. And then later, it became clear that oops, this stuff is actually bad for the health of these animals. And at that point, you're already dealing with this multibillion dollar industry. And rather than trying to react to that nutritional science reality, they tried to go through this prolonged process of trying to fight repress secure the truth about it. And that's, that's the status of things right now. It's like, we're in an era that sort of like smoking in like the 1950s. Like, there's this big body of research that's like, smoking looks like it gives you lung cancer, but the general public that hasn't gotten fully through to them yet. And the reason for that is because the folks who stand to lose billions of dollars if they do become aware of that are fighting, and you got basically the exact same thing happening in the pet food world too. I think, as you said, I think more and more pet parents want to be better educated, and want to be the best advocate for their animal. So I want to thank you, first of all, for your book, I know that we just scratched the surface on this interview. So I will put the link to the book in the show notes. And as we are wrapping up, Daniel, I know that you also started a nonprofit, the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council, can you briefly just tell us how that came to be? Absolutely. Thank you for giving me a chance to do that, because it's my kind of newest thing, and I'm really excited about it. So one of the ways that the pet food industry is doing a really good job about obscuring the truth about the dietary consequences of carbohydrate for companion animals, is the nutritional science research community is driven entirely by funding from pet food companies. Unlike in the human domain, there's no like National Institutes of Health that exists to provide funding for interesting, useful research. If you are a nutritional scientist working in the veterinary domain, you get your money from pet food period. That's it. Some of it comes from Legacy kibble companies. Some of it comes from alternative type upstart things, but all of it, with very few exceptions comes from the pet food industry. I think that is one of the that's a problem, right? No real statistics that you can imagine, that's going to result in some things that are really useful for pet owners not getting studied if they're not good for industry. And so the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council was conceptualized to address that problem. And basically, the idea is that we solicit individual donations from members that are individual pet owners only accepting only small dollar donations, we don't accept a single dollar from any kind of organizational entity. So my company Keto Natural Pet Foods can't give a penny to it. And I as an individual can't give any more than you, Krista could give if you are so inclined. And what we do is we aggregate donations and use them to provide grants to nutritional science research that actually matters for pet food companies. We're brand new, just founded we debuted the thing on Giving Tuesday Thanksgiving of 2022. So we have yet to make our first grant. There's a ton more information about us on our website, which is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council. I bet your listeners have all sorts of questions about it. And I encourage them to go check out the site because there's all kinds of helpful info about how our governance works to prevent conflicts of interest, including the ones that I have from influencing our main operations, and just kind of all the other nuts and bolts of it. But yeah, I'm super excited about it. It's, you know, we don't know if it'll be successful at this point. But if it if we can make it successful if it can perform the function that it's supposed to perform, which is to take on a reasonable bit of money from the 70 plus million dog owners in the United States, every year, that we can sit at the table to fund to provide funding for research that really matters that it's not just good for the industry. Thank you for trying to make a difference. It's so important. Daniel, we are out of time. But where can everybody find more information about you, Keto Natural Pet Foods and the Pet Food Consumer Rights Council? The only one that I'll be specific about is Pet Food Consumer Rights Council/org. That's the website for that organization. It’s too infant for it to do really well in Google If that makes sense, like if you research pet food, nonprofit, you might not find it. Everything else I'm about the easiest doggy person to find on the internet. Just look for me pet food, you know, Daniel Schulof. I'm active on Twitter and other social media platforms. My book is on Amazon and all the other places, Keto Natural Pet Foods is easy to find. Shouldn't be too hard for anybody that's made it this far. And I'll give all the links in the show notes. And Daniel, thank you for all of your work. Thank you, Krista. Yeah, thank you for giving me the chance to talk. And hopefully, everybody learned something new. And again, there's so much more to learn the science is out there. So do your homework, everybody. And Daniel. Thanks again for your time today. You're welcome. Thank you, Krista. It's been my pleasure. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month's episodes. Check out this fantastic all natural formula by going to Caninesystemssaver.com And be sure to use the code wol10 For 10% off. Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or