Well hello everyone! This is Krista with episode #151 on the Wag Out Loud pawdcast. Are you making the most out of the time spent with your dog while on a walk? Or perhaps instead you listen to audiobooks, podcasts, music, or are talking on the phone during those times? Well, I just want to encourage everyone to have more mindful walks with your dog, and to use that time to bond with them in nature. We should take a cue from our pups to slow down and live in the present moment. Research shows that this may help decrease depression and anxiety, improve memory, and to boost our mental and physical health. Walks are also the perfect time to let your dog be a dog. I call it taking them on “sniffari”, which is great for their mental stimulation. So being present during walks with your dog only deepens your connection with them. So pay attention to how you both are feeling and reacting to your surroundings. I don't know about you, but the best ideas come to me when I'm out for a walk with my dog Winston. That is when I'm relaxed, my mind is open. And we enjoy our bonding time. Welcome to the Wag Out Loud pawdcast, where we are obsessed with bringing you helpful tips on canine health care, nutrition, and overall wellbeing. If you'd like to support the show, check out the amazing online events, products and resources that I personally recommend on the Wag Out Loud website. I'm your host, Krista and I'm super excited to be bringing you yet another tail wagging episode. Dr. Jodie Gruenstern is an experienced veterinarian who has performed thousands of titer tests and can explain why you are risking your pet's health and wasting your money by blindly repeating unnecessary vaccinations! Dr. Jodie received her DVM degree from the University of Wisconsin-Madison in 1987. She has practiced small animal medicine in Wisconsin and now Arizona. She is a national presenter, journal writer, and author of "Live with Your Pet in Mind". She has been filmed for PetMD and PetWorld Insider. She has been taught by and presented with Dr. Ron Schultz, the world-renown Ph.D. immunologist instrumental to the development of titer testing and the core vaccine principles. Hello there dog lovers! We are going to learn a lot today from our guest, Dr. Jodie Gruenstern and she is going to set us straight on are we over-vaccinating our dogs? Hot Topic! Dr. Jodie, I am so excited to chat with you about this very important, but controversial topic. So could you please introduce yourself and tell us why did you start thinking differently when it came to canine vaccinations and schedules? Sure. Thanks, Krista. Thank you so much for having me. This should be fun. I'm very excited to get this information out to all the pet parents. I have been a veterinarian for at least 35-36 years. I graduated from UW Madison, in Wisconsin in 1987. And even as far back as conventional veterinary school, I had an instructor that was a PhD immunologist for our immunology class named Dr. Ron Schultz. And since then he has become world renowned, holistic and conventional. Veterinarians all admire him and his knowledge and his dedication to our field in the area of vaccinations, helping vaccine manufacturers make vaccines, and then also helping companies develop what we call titer testing, and reaching out to the veterinary community and even the American Veterinary Medical Association to develop what's called core vaccines. So we're gonna get into all that I think a little deeper. But even as far back as veterinary school, I was really fortunate to have that kind of influence. Wow, that's great. Well, I'm glad that you're part of the fight, because we're hearing more and more about over-vaccination and what it's doing to our dogs. So why don't we quickly go over, what are the core vaccines? And when would a puppy get these? The Core Vaccines Sure, so the core vaccines are considered distemper, parvo, and rabies. And when a puppy is vaccinated, at less than eight weeks of age, the vaccine regardless of which one of those it is usually never works. Not at any fault of the vaccine itself, but because the puppy's immune system is not competent to respond to the vaccine. So you cannot be immunized and protected unless you actually respond to the vaccine. And that's really important for everybody to recognize just because you get a shot, that doesn't mean that you're protected. With COVID, that sounds very familiar. Yeah, so maybe we won't go there. So anyway, it's very important for pet parents to recognize that and especially breeders, because right away when we start talking about over-vaccinating, some of these puppies are taking a risk and being over-vaccinated before the new pet mom even has acquired the puppy. And so at eight to nine weeks is when a puppy's immune system is usually competent to respond. And so that's when vaccination should begin. So prior to that, you do have to be careful that you don't expose a puppy to something like parvo or rabies, because obviously, then they could get the disease. On the other hand, what we need to recognize is that most of them get passive immunity from their mother. So it crosses the placenta, it is transmitted through the colostrum of puppies first milk, and those puppies get protection. That protection stays in their bodies for up to 12 weeks. So when you give a vaccination at eight to nine weeks, they may be competent to respond. But they often are not protected from the vaccine because it is blocked, because the mother's protection is still present in that puppy, and blocks the effectiveness of the vaccine. So we know that by about 12 weeks in most breeds, mother's protection then goes away. And then if we give another vaccination at 12 weeks, then that puppy will be protected. Because we don't know for sure if that immunity was passed on from the mother to the puppy or not. That is why we typically recommend starting vaccination at eight to nine weeks. Now, if we actually knew if that puppy was protected or not, then that would guide our decisions better as to whether or not that vaccination given is needed and whether or not it will be effective. Okay, well, that's all really good to know. So in your mind, puppy has their initial puppy shots, do they then continue throughout their entire lives with the recommended vaccine schedule? When to Give Vaccines Right. So not necessarily. So that's especially what I like about my holistic practice is we really look at every patient as an individual. And we ask the questions, we think about what has gone on in that Puppy's background. And then we can even go further to actually check their immunity. So there's testing we can do to check that. And there's a cost involved, of course, so we can also delve into the pet parent’s financial situation a little bit and what do they prefer. So if we want to play averages, then we would just vaccinate with a distemper, Parvo complex at eight or nine weeks, again at 12 weeks. And then in some cases, and in some breeds, 16 weeks, and then again a year later, and then it may be year after year, or some vaccines are labeled as every three years. Now, what we know from studies that have actually been done is that if we check their blood at 16 weeks, that the majority of them have protection at that point from the vaccine that was given at 12 weeks, and they don't need that vaccination at 16 weeks. If we check their blood again, a year later, we can then determine did they mount that immune response? Is it still present. Studies have actually been done to determine the actual numbers that are needed for protection? And this is based on challenge studies. So what we're talking about what we're getting into right here now is what's called titer testing. And it's not teater, It's not Twitter, it's titer. And it is spelled two ways, t-i-t-e-r, or the British spelling, which is t-i-t-r-e, and I think that all confuses a lot of people, but it's titer testing, and it's a blood test. So it's not an injection. Titer Testing to the Rescue! So in essence, for the core vaccines, is that what a titer can be used for, the three that you mentioned? Yes. So the titer’s done typically at most labs. It measures Distemper and Parvo. And then Kansas State is sort of the gold standard place to send the blood for a rabies titer and they can do Distemper and Parvo as well. And pricing varies depending on the Veterinary Clinic submitting the blood, and there are other places to send it. But Kansas State is very reasonable and can check Distemper, Parvo and Rabies. Okay. Now, do all veterinarians offer titer testing? They do not all offer it. They pretty much can all do it. Sometimes there's a little pressure that needs to be put on them in order to have it done. And it's pretty simple. You know, veterinarians are busy and we get set in our ways. As a group, I think we're slow to change. And we're not always learning what's really current when we've been in the field for a long time. And certainly that's not right. But that's the way it is. And so we give vaccinations the way maybe we were taught to do it in school, or maybe we get set in our ways because of the first employer that we had. And it becomes the bread and butter, so to speak of the practice too. And it's a quick in and out. It's a way to encourage your clients to come in every year, like well you’re due for your shots. Well, or you really due for the shot? Really, we should veterinarians should be promoting wellness exams as putting an emphasis on that, which is extremely important. And take the focus off of coming in for a vaccination, because the vaccination not only may not be needed, but it may actually be detrimental. Over-Vaccinating Can Cause Illness & Disease Well, you've hit the nail on the head. And I have to question why so many veterinarians, especially the conventional vets are sticking to these schedules. When in all reality, more and more research is coming out that this over-vaccination is actually causing the illnesses and disease that these dogs come in for. So it's is it kind of like a vicious cycle? Yes. And the other part that's difficult is, we're all taught what anaphylaxis is. And that's a serious reaction that happens immediately when you get a bee sting, or when you're allergic to penicillin, and somebody gives you penicillin. Or peanuts. And certainly vaccinations can cause a rapid anaphylactic reaction when a patient basically goes into shock. And I have seen that happen. And I believe it's very important that if you're going to give a vaccine, you should be in a veterinary facility that has the ability to get the patient on oxygen, put in an intravenous catheter, administer steroids or epinephrine or whatever is needed. So I don't believe that vaccines should be administered outside of that kind of a realm. But and those might be fairly rare. Those kinds of reactions, although I have seen them, and when it's your own pet, it doesn't feel very rare. And that's why to think that you've given a vaccine unnecessarily that if you had checked a titer, instead, you wouldn't have given that vaccine and then lose your pet to an anaphylactic reaction. That's just horrific. But what really is not considered is what you're getting at is the number of different kinds of chronic disorders, where the disorder isn't even correlated with the administration of that vaccine, because it doesn't happen immediate. Many veterinarians will not report reactions, there is not a standard reporting mechanism in the veterinary field like that actually is in the human field. So to even try to look at statistics, like how many reactions are there? There is not any kind of accurate information out there. And if you do read, the vaccine manufacturer inserts, they say right on there, you know, they have a handle on in their studies, and the reporting that's been done directly to them, which they do not have to make public knowledge, but they have more of a handle on Yes, our vaccine does cause this problem or that problem. And if you read their inserts, you will see that they say right there that their vaccines can cause immune mediated disease. And so what is that? It doesn't sound like much was just some words on paper. But an example is immune mediated thrombocytopenia, and that's a serious bleeding disorder. And it takes anywhere from oh, two to seven days, maybe even 14 days to really start showing up after that vaccine is given. And one of the vaccines that is notorious for causing that is the lepto, leptospirosis vaccination. So my like when you ask, well, what you know, made me change and evolve too is a very sad story, very sad experience with giving a lepto vaccination to a dog. Dr. Jodie, can I stop you right there because we are going to take a quick commercial break and then we want to hear the story. So we will be right back. Thanks so much to the team at System Saver for being this month’s feature sponsor. Dr. Baker’s Canine System Saver is an outstanding all-natural supplement that promotes healthy aging.  Originally created by a veterinarian to help restore health and soundness to dogs suffering from chronic inflammatory and degenerative conditions, this is one product that does so much! Perfect for: arthritis, hip dysplasia & joint support, chronic dermatitis, inflammatory and autoimmune diseases, and geriatric support for successful aging and quality of life extension. At 13 yrs old,my dog Winston has a better quality of life and has found so much more energy being on this amazing product!” Now with the start of allergy season, System Saver works wonders on canine allergies as well. Learn more by going to http://caninesystemsaver.com/ to relieve your dog’s discomfort naturally.  And as a bonus, Wag Out Loud listeners can take advantage of a 10% discount by using the code WOL10 at checkout! All right, everybody. We are back with Dr. Jodie Gruenstern and she is shedding light on over-vaccination and the use of titers. Dr. Jodie, I cut you off before you were about to tell us about a story about a dog. Yeah, I left everyone sitting on the edge of their seats. Okay, so back in the day when I was still conventional, kind of a few years out of school. And I really believe that being a good pet parent meant getting your pets spayed and neutered , and getting your pet vaccinated and on a good schedule. And a beautiful two year old, intact male German Shepherd came through my door. Hadn't been neutered, hadn't been vaccinated. And I basically shamed that owner into giving some vaccinations, including leptospirosis. And within a week, that dog had immune mediated thrombocytopenia, which is a severe bleeding disorder, that is listed as a potential complication from that vaccine, the vaccine manufacturer’s insert, and I did everything I could, I did not save that dog. And this is normal 30 years later, and I'm talking about it. So you know, it made a huge impact on me. And so that was one of many. Another one that we do see frequently that often goes uncorrelated is polyarthritis, stiffness, soreness, heat, fever, in the joints. And that can occur anywhere from a couple of days to a couple of weeks after vaccination. And I had personal experience with that. It was a technician, a veterinary technician, who imported a beautiful purebred dog that she wanted to use in agility and a puppy. And she knew all the risks of vaccines. And we both pondered like, oh, you know, are we going to do this? Like, well, we need to get some on board. I mean, I'm not anti vaccs. I mean, I don't want dogs to get distemper, parvo or rabies. So it is important to vaccinate, but we vaccinated this dog, I think it was on a Thursday or Friday. And on Monday, I got a report from the emergency clinic that the dog was in there with this polyarthritis syndrome, not eating couldn't get up. Very painful. And the Tech had told them that the dog had been vaccinated. And they said no, it was too long after the vaccine that it couldn't have been the vaccine. And they weren't even the ones that gave it a shot. I was. And I'm like, I know it was the vaccine, for sure. And so there's just for, you know, in our field, there's just that denial. Well, and you're bringing up a good point, you know, our listeners know that we think that nutrition is the foundation for health for ourselves, as well as our dogs. And I know on all of these vaccine labels that it says for use in healthy dogs only. So nobody defines what healthy actually means. So if you have a dog that already has underlying issues, you know, they don't have a strong immune system, or they have leaky gut or or what have you. Are they already being set up for even worse consequences if we do over-vaccinate those dogs? Vaccinate only “healthy” Dogs Absolutely. And that's, that is a conventional rule, again, that the vaccine manufacturer asserts that veterinarians are breaking you know, that advice every day, and they're actually making themselves liable. For example, if a pet has a reaction to a vaccination, and then the next time they come in to get that vaccination again, the veterinarian gives them an anti histamine injection and then goes ahead and gives the vaccination. That's actually not something that the vaccine manufacturer recommends. They'll say heed the warning. That pet had a mild reaction the first time, they could have a lot worse problem the second time. And the other thing that is done every day is the animals that have the allergies that are on immunosuppressive drugs, like prednisone, steroids, cytopoint, cyclosporin products, apoquel, all of that, which is suppressing the immune system, which makes them unable to respond properly to the vaccine anyway. So they have a chronic disease, they're on a repetitive medication that definitely wouldn't fit in my definition of what healthy is, and certainly not a patient that has autoimmune hypothyroidism, which is like Hashimotos in humans and most dogs have the autoimmune version, or cancer. Certainly, we shouldn't be vaccinating our cancer patients. Well, I'm just so glad that you're here to talk more about titer testing and that it exists. So let's dive a little deeper. How much is it usually to get a titer test? Cost of titer testing Oh, that's all over the board. It can be anywhere probably from around $75, up to $250. Part of it is going to depend on are you just doing just a distemper, just a Parvo? Are you doing a combo of those two? Are you doing a combo of all three? Are you doing the type of tests that run in house? Is going out to a lab where the lab marks up the price and sends it on, let's say to Kansas State, or sending it to the veterinarian to set up their own account and they send it directly to Kansas State or Michigan State? Do you have access to a university, you know, to get this testing done? So that's why it varies so much. And when you get the titer testing done, and you get the results back, and let's say your dog has the correct antibodies for each of the three, how long would that titer be good for that would be in lieu of proof of vaccination? How long are titer’s results good for? So there is, to my knowledge, not any kind of regulatory guidance in that regard. And it depends also, if we’re talking about this distemper, parvo or rabies, because there are no laws about giving distemper or Parvo. Although there are restrictions about will this facility let you come in, if you don't have proof or protection for distemper or Parvo. Or this grooming facility or whatever, most states have a law only for rabies, not for distemper or Parvo. As far as determining how long it lasts, there are studies that have been done to show that the fastest, a distemper, Parvo titer falls, is in half each year, approximately. So if we want to give somebody guidance for their individual pet, and their pet is starting out with a titer, of, let's say, 4000, for Parvo. And it falls in half in a year, for the next year, it's 2000, the year after that it's 1000, the year after that, it's 500. And this is determined from a lot of animals that have been checked. But we can actually now kind of make that assumption. We know that for Parvo, to have what we call a sterilizing level of immunity, which is the level that's reported back on the lab report that they want to see, they actually only need an 80. So if they have 4000, it's going to be a lot of years, before they're going to get to 80 and supposedly need a booster. So even on my website, I have a blog article there about this and includes these numbers, that 80 is sterilizing, 20 is memory immunity level, and there's a difference there. So even with a lower number, you still do have some protection. So titer testing can be very complicated. It is helpful that if you work that you work with a veterinarian that has experience with understanding what those titer test results mean, and doesn't necessarily just take those numbers at face value either. But as far as rabies, which legally we need to be the most concerned about the guidelines there usually go by the World Health Organization, .5 or more level, which comes back from if we send the blood to Kansas State, it comes back if it's greater than .5 and protected. That's less than .5. Technically, they're not considered protected. And that can last anywhere from three years, seven years, maybe even longer. And there have also again, then, some rabies challenge studies done to determine that yes that number is holding and staying and protecting them for many, many years. Certainly more than one year and certainly more than three years. So would you recommend for a healthy adult dog that we get the titer testing yearly? Or, again, it depends on their actual numbers as to how often? Right, so again, that's on an individual basis, or as a blanket statement, I would say, it's not going to be necessary to do it yearly. But depending on the State, if they enact legislation to allow titer testing, they may say that they're going to require a titer test every year, even though a rabies vaccination may only be required every three years. Now I don't like that. But I can understand that because they are new to that. And they're trying to compromise, that they may feel more comfortable being able to assert that okay, it's a year later, yes, this pet is still protected, because they don't know if that protection is waning or not. And if they could really say, yes, this pet’s, okay for three years. And Dr. Jodie, you just mentioned legislation. Where are we with that around acceptance of tighter tests in lieu of over-vaccinating. So again, that's all over the board, depending on the state where you live. So in Wisconsin, I was blessed and spoiled by having an actual waver exemption law. So in Wisconsin, if a pet had had a reaction, or it had a chronic disease, as that individual’s veterinarian, I could decide if that pet should get vaccinated for rabies or not. And there was a state statute I could sign and present this waiver that the client would then keep, and they wouldn't get in trouble for not having injection of rabies on a routine basis in order to get their pet licensed. In Arizona, we do not have anything of that sort. The law is that you need to give that first vaccine by the time the puppy is six months old. You give another one a year later, that one is considered a three year and I use the word considered because based on studies, we actually know that it lasts longer than that in the majority of dogs. The very small number of dogs that actually are called no responders, and they don't even respond to their vaccines, including rabies. It's a small number. But it is not good science to assume that just because someone got a rabies injection, that that means they're immunized, that that means they're protected. That's not necessarily true. But I think if we really care about rabies as a zoonotic, a deadly disease., that's a danger to humans, then we should be requiring a minimum of one titer in every dog after they're vaccinated to tell if they're a responder or not. That makes sense. Well, as we are wrapping up, I just I hope one person listening today, learned something new. That we do have options. I could not believe earlier last year, I was going to get Winston's teeth cleaned. And I have gotten him titer tested and he is way more than adequately protected. They said he would have to get a rabies vaccine to do the dental. And I said well I've got my titer test right here and they didn't care. They said this is new protocol. In case he bites us. We can't perform dental cleaning on him without a rabies vaccination. Yep. So that is that is their clinic rule. That is not, you know, that is not a state law about their choice. And the other fallacy that gets perpetuated is that if your pet is not up to date on a rabies vaccine and it bites someone that pet will be euthanized. That is not true. As far as I know that is not true in any state. They will be quarantined for 10 days. The reason they're quarantined is because if they actually had rabies, and they're not going to be harboring it, they would have had to been bitten by a rabid animal just prior as well. But if they bite you because they actually have rabies, then they pass on within 10 days. And so that's what the 10 day quarantine rule is all about. So all I can say is that it's time for everybody to wake up and do what's best for our pets. And find a new veterinarian, find a new groomer educate, educate, educate. And you know, it's a peer pressure kind of thing. And we just need to let them know that, you know, we're not satisfied with the way you were treated in that situation and that it's not fair. And it's not good science even. Right. Well, Dr. Jodie, this is the perfect example of what this show is all about. That titer testing helps us to be the best advocates for our dog's health and wellness. And bravo to the daycares and the boarding facilities that are accepting titers. I hope more and more do. But again, as Dr. Jodie said, we have to say something, and if our vet does not agree, then we have to move on to somebody else. So Dr. Jodie, I can't thank you enough for chatting with us today. Where can everybody find out more information about you and your practice? Yeah, so simple, just www.docjodie.com. So and I'm Jodie with an “IE”. So it's www.docjodie.com. And I have a blog article right on that site that goes very into depth on this topic, as well as other links and other information about my other passions, like natural nutrition, for example. Maybe we can talk about that sometime. FB>> https://www.facebook.com/docjodie Twitter>> https://twitter.com/JodieGruenstern Instagram>> https://www.instagram.com/docjodie/ Yes, we would love to. That's our jam over here. All right. Sounds great. Thanks for having me today. Thanks, Dr. Jodie. We appreciate you. Thanks again to our friends at System Saver for sponsoring this month’s episodes .  Check out this fantastic all-natural formula by going to http://caninesystemsaver.com/ and be sure to use the code WOL10 for 10% off! Thanks for listening. You'll find some helpful links in the show notes and if you enjoy the show, please be sure to follow and listen for free on your favorite podcast app. And please, please share your feedback. Visit WagOutLoud.com for great product recommendations with discounts, amazing online events and fantastic resources. That's also where to visit our Bark About It page where you can suggest topics, guests or products. Be advised that this show offers health and nutritional information and is designed for educational purposes only. You're encouraged to do your own research and should not rely on this information as a substitute for nor does it replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. If you have any concerns or questions about your dog's health, you should always consult a veterinarian or a nutrition expert. Have a tail wagging day and we'll catch you next time. Hey Winston was that another tail wagging episode? Don’t forget to Subscribe for FREE and please leave a review: Apple Podcasts | Android | Spotify I Stitcher I iHeartRADIO The purpose of this podcast is to educate and to inform. It is no substitute for professional care by a veterinarian, licensed nutritionist or other qualified professional. The host as well as guests who speak on this podcast express their own opinions, experience and conclusions, and Wag Out Loud LLC neither endorses or opposes any particular views discussed here.