In this episode of Empire, Jason and Santi are joined by Sunny Aggarwal (Osmosis co-founder) and Derek Hsue (Reverie co-founder & "I Pledge Allegiance" co-host) to discuss the future of Osmosis, appchains and protocol governance. Show highlights include: - Learnings from the CeFi fallout - How protocols should re-think token incentives - Thoughts on dYdX moving to Cosmos - Why applications should launch their own chain - One of the biggest shortfalls of rollups - Osmosis as the interchain DEX - Mars protocol on Osmosis - Why Cosmos governance is so active - Experimenting with a DAO's org structure - Osmosis exploit and learnings - The Osmosis roadmap - What Sunny and Derek are looking forward to - - Follow Sunny: https://twitter.com/sunnya97 Follow Derek: https://twitter.com/derek_hsue Follow Jason: https://twitter.com/JasonYanowitz Follow Santi: https://twitter.com/santiagoroel Follow Empire: https://twitter.com/theempirepod Subscribe on YouTube: https://tinyurl.com/4fdhhb2j Subscribe on Apple: https://tinyurl.com/mv4frfv7 Subscribe on Spotify: https://tinyurl.com/wbaypprw - - Referenced in the show: "I Pledge Allegiance" podcast co-hosted by Derek https://tinyurl.com/493vrmpp - - ParaSwap: If you want to make a swap at the best price across the DeFi market, check out paraswap.io. ParaSwap’s state-of-the-art algorithm beats the market price across all major DEXs and brings you the most optimized swaps with the best prices and lowest slippage. Visit paraswap.io/beta to learn more about Paraswap's new app. - - Get top market insights and the latest in crypto news. Subscribe to Blockworks Daily Newsletter: https://blockworks.co/newsletter/ -- (00:00) Introduction (00:50) Lessons Learned From CeFi Fallout (03:04) Rethinking Capital Spend (06:17) Osomosis Incentive Structure (08:04) dYdX Moves to Cosmos (10:27) The Downside of Rollups Today (15:38) Why Projects Should Launch Their Own Appchain (18:56) The Cosmos Hub and Shared Security (22:09) Appchains Will Expand Their Scope (26:38) Paraswap Ad (27:48) Applications on Osmosis (31:00) The Fat Application Thesis (33:47) Active Governance in Cosmos (37:54) Governance Is Not the Goal (40:22) What Should DAOs Be Used For? (42:41) DAO Org Structures (47:30) Osmosis Exploit & Learnings (50:35) The Osmosis Exploit & Learnings (1:00:55)The Osmosis Vertical Integration Bet (1:05:40) The Future of DeFi (1:14:40) Web of Trust & zk Applications -- Disclaimer: Nothing said on Empire is a recommendation to buy or sell securities or tokens. This podcast is for informational purposes only, and any views expressed by anyone on the show are solely our opinions, not financial advice. Santiago, Jason, and our guests may hold positions in the companies, funds, or projects discussed.