Many of us watched Georgia election officials Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss testify before the January 6 committee about the threats they faced after becoming caught up in conspiracies about the 2020 election. Our guest this week says that stories like this are more common than many of us realize, and that things like erroneous record requests from election deniers are even more common. On top of that, social media platforms are making it more difficult local election offices to share accurate information with voters.

Jessica Huseman is the editorial director at Votebeat, a news outlet that does nonpartisan local reporting n elections and voting. She was previously the lead elections reporter for ProPublica, and helped manage the Electionland project for three federal election cycles, sharing information and tips with hundreds of newsrooms across the United States.

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Jessica Huseman on Twitter

2022 Midterms: What At Stake? series from The Democracy Group podcast network

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Episode Transcript

Chris Beem From the McCourtney Institute for Democracy at Penn State University, I’m Chris Beem.

Candis Watts Smith  I’m Candis Watts Smith.

Jenna Spinelle I’m Jenna Spinelle and welcome to Democracy Works. This episode is part of the 2022 midterms, what’s at stake series from The Democracy Group Podcast Network. So thank you. And welcome to everyone who is listening there. This week, we are talking with Jessica Huseman, who is the editorial director of Votebeat which is a nonprofit news outlet specifically focused on election administration. So all of the people who are responsible for running elections across the country Votebeat is an offshoot of Chalkbeat, which is a new site that started up to cover teachers and education. So I think there’s kind of a theme developing here of, you know, folks who do such essential work in our public lives, but who often fly under the radar are definitely under appreciated, and in most places, probably underpaid, as well. So I’m happy to have Jessica here to talk with us about all of the things that these folks are facing as we head into the midterms this year,

Candis Watts Smith  Despite the fact that election administrators, much like our school teachers, are part of the backbone of democracy about just kind of how things work. You know, elect election administrators literally make elections work, and they aren’t prize protected, and rewarded as they should be. And I think this connects really well to our conversation that we had a couple of weeks ago with Don Moynahan about, you know, the difference between politics and governance. And so, you know, we get really riled up about politics about, you know, Democrats and Republicans, conservatives and liberals. But governance is what makes things work county clerks, local election offices, folks who volunteer or get some sort of compensation, small compensation to be poll workers. They make elections work, and their job is to make sure that people can cast their ballots, that votes are tabulated properly. And that elections are sound. They’re the frontline of democracy. And yet, we see attacks on on on these folks, right, not just the process of voting and voter fraud, but that there are right that these people in the minds of, of some people are the face of fraud. And you know, this is producing major problems for individuals, but also for entire election offices across the country. And that is going to be obviously a problem for the way elections are run moving forward.

Chris Beem The other thing that I want to mention is that McCourtney Institute’s Brown Medal which we give to annually to someone who’s securing and supporting democracy, either United States around the world is States United, which is a an organization that’s dedicated to supporting these officials as well. But you’re right, Candis, it’s not it’s it’s different now, right. And when we, the the testimony of Ruby Freeman at the January 6 committee was just arresting how this poor woman was just trying to do her part. I mean, that’s literally it, right? She was just someone who cared about elections, cared about her community and gave her time to do this. And yet she was not just harassed, but suffer death threats couldn’t go anywhere in which you say, there’s nowhere I feel safe. I mean, this is the world right now. And, you know, it’s not a wonder that so many people have quit, right. I mean, it’s just not worth it.

Candis Watts Smith  One thing I think is worth noting is that both Republican and democratic election officials across the states agree that there aren’t major problems here, except for the ongoing threats to election officials. Right, that there is kind of a bipartisan agreement about the extent to which election officials no matter their partisan identity, are doing their jobs properly and to the best of their ability. But, you know, these, you know, fringe people are making it are undermining a system that’s going to affect us all. And so, just, you know, just the fact of the matters that the kind of bipartisan support is not outweighing the, the fringe undermining of in threats of these Folks, because if we really did care, then we would have more robust policies that protect that protect, you know, election officials. And there’s some kind of there’s an introduction of a bill to do so. But we haven’t we haven’t seen, we haven’t seen kind of robust protections, rewards for these individuals. And for the people who are making our elections work.

Chris Beem It is a really interesting distinction there and and one that ought to give us pause, right, the people who are responsible for running for making sure that elections work, are well aware that there is no fraud, well aware that these people are doing the best they can, under very difficult circumstances. And you’re right. It doesn’t matter whether that county executive is a Republican or a Democrat, they have a job to do. They have to make sure this happens, just like getting the, you know, make sure the sewers work, and the waterworks and the trash is picked up. They have, you know, basic fundamental tasks. And if they have somebody who doesn’t, well, they’re thrilled, and they don’t want to do anything to undermine that.

Jenna Spinelle And I think that the thing that I really took from Jessica’s work, and I appreciate about the work that Volbeat is doing, it shines a light on the fact that there are so many more Ruby Freeman’s out there. So let’s go now to the interview with Jessica Huseman.

Jenna Spinelle Jessica Huseman, welcome to Democracy Works. Thanks for joining us today.

Jessica Huseman Thank you, I’m excited to be here.

Jenna Spinelle So as I’ve been thinking about when we get closer to the midterm elections, you know, the people who want to undermine democracy have had two years to figure out how to get stronger at their tactics and techniques for doing that. But it’s also true that the people who run elections and are those kind of dedicated public servants, whether an unpaid physician or volunteers have also had two years to think about how to push back against some of those more anti democratic forces. So I guess just to start with the big picture here, like, how are you thinking about that kind of continuum, or that that push and pull as we head into November’s elections?

Jessica Huseman That is a really good question. You know, I think that it’s it’s kind of important to understand that these folks are, this is not a professionalized industry, right. So these folks are combating really organized campaigns of misinformation, but they have no inherent organization or support system to help fight back against that. So, you know, we’re talking about a right wing media ecosystem that is pretty intent on attacking these people who work in county level jobs and like don’t have spokespeople. And so they’re not the kind of folks that like, inherently understand how to wage a campaign in the media. But over the last two years, as you point out, they’ve sort of been trying to figure it out, right, because it was became clear to them after 2020, that they were missing that ability to have a megaphone to their people, and to actually give them correct information. And like, I see those communication networks improving, I see election directors going to media training in a way that they were not and issuing press releases and getting support from community from a communication standpoint from the state. And so I think all of that will dampen some of the effects in 2022 of this the kind of rhetoric that we heard in 2020. That was so effective, right? I think one of the reasons 2020 hits so hard is because the clerk’s despite having the information that could answer these questions, didn’t have a way to get it out efficiently. And I think they do now. And so I’m hopeful that that, that it will be a little bit more of an even playing field this time around.

Jenna Spinelle Yeah. Can you talk more about what that communications infrastructure looks like? Like what tools and tactics are in place now that we’re not there in 2020?

Jessica Huseman You know, I think baseline clerks really understand why engaging with the media proactively as important now in a way that they didn’t before. And, you know, I think, for reporters, and the media who’ve been covering these folks were like, Oh, my God, you just figure this out right now. But like, again, these folks are not professional communicators, right. Like the vast majority of clerks that I speak to on a daily basis are like, people who started working at the county when they were 16 years old and like have just been promoted and promoted and promoted, right? Like they’re not people who you can’t get a degree in election. stration right, like you just do it. And so, you know, I think that that realization has been really helpful. Like, I have noticed, for example, that clerks are much more willing to spend more time with me and other local media for for the reasons that that I’ve articulated. But you know, I think that the other thing is that there are big nonprofits that are helping these groups come up with communication strategies. So the elections group, and it’s a consulting group that does a lot of like, work with local municipalities, and they had Pam Fessler come in and do like a communications guidebook for election workers. And Pam Fessler is a delight and a genius from NPR. And so, you know, I think that there are these support systems and guide books that didn’t exist before, like these people actually need to be told, like, here’s how to engage with the media. And that’s not, that’s not an insult to them. It just like is what it is. And so now that they’ve got those tools at their disposal, I can see them putting them in.

Jenna Spinelle Yeah, and, you know, we heard during the January 6 hearings over the summer that the stories of of election officials and workers in Georgia who had received threats and been targeted by conspiracy theorists, and you know, really had had very serious concerns about their safety. And I guess I wonder from the work that you and your colleagues have done at Votebeat and talking with election officials across the country, like, How common is that story?

Jessica Huseman You know, is very widespread, and it’s very problematic. I, I, if you there are a couple of weeks ago, there were hearings in DC about the threats and unpleasantness directed like to the administrators, and the vibe during that hearing was really wild, because it was these election administrators, earnestly asking for help and assistance and then Republicans saying like, Oh, it’s just threats. Have you died yet? Like, what? No, we’re not gonna pay attention to this, like Ted Cruz actually said, I feel bad for you. But ultimately, these are just threats, right. And I like, I know that I feel like a broken record right now. But these people are not like they don’t have a support system around them, right. Like Ted Cruz probably gets a bunch of threats every day. But he’s got the Capitol Police. He’s got a whole staff. He’s got people to intercept. And there are clear guidelines for how those threats should be handled. These county offices, like have one person working and sometimes part time, like they don’t, this is not a normal situation for them. Like if you get no threats, and then the next day you get 12, even if they’re from like y’all who’s who live three states away, that is alarming. And sets a really awful precedent for the, you know, the treatment of these people in this office. And so we’re seeing election administrators leave their offices in droves. And like, part of that is because the boomers are retiring, right, like and so there’s a generational shift happening. And then on top of that, we’re having these really ridiculous threats levied at people, we covered it. A couple of weeks ago, the entire staff of the Gillespie County Elections Office resigned. And those threats and harassment actually started in 2019, over a fluoride, public health measure that lost and then these fluoride activist started, like, ramming the elections director, and she took, took it for three years and then left, right. And so this is not a thing that like originated with Donald Trump. This is a thing that he saw and picked up on and then inflamed. And so, you know, I think that what we need to understand is that this has been happening for a lot longer than just 2020. And 2020, just made it so much worse. And so, you know, I think that these folks who are making just an incredibly low salary, the elections director who resigned and Gillespie County was working around the clock and her salary was about $45,000 a year, she had two part time staffers one made $12 An hour one made $16 An hour and these people were like having to physically put themselves in between ballot vaults, and angry activists and like, that is not enough money to do that. Right. And so it’s a combination of things, right. It’s a lack of support, it’s a lack of pay, it’s a lack of resources, and then it’s an increasing threat, even if the threats reasonably can’t be taken seriously, it’s you’re just not being paid enough and working too hard to also be subjected to that kind of treatment.

Jenna Spinelle Yeah, I just like the the mental health aspects of that and you don’t like unlike your running thing for Senate, which is a very public thing, like you get into these offices because you are working behind the scenes or you don’t want to be out in the limelight. Right. And so, yeah, I can, I can totally see how that that situation unfolds. And you’re thinking about this this Gillespie county example. So is the is the goal here to, you know, much like we’re seeing at the secretary of state level, is the goal to bring in like election denier types to replace these county administrators and staffers like is that the end game here?

Jessica Huseman I think that what, what folks kind of don’t really see on the surface is that these, usually these county officials are nominated, like the people who run elections are hired by a county board of some form or fashion. And so those are the people that are quitting because they’re not the elected, right, like, wouldn’t have a harder time leaving office. These are people who have a job they’ve been hired to do, and they’re like, by. And so the county board that surround these people, generally are not as insane as some of the right wing rhetoric because they, you know, counties have to deal with these people who have been sort of given misinformation by loud statewide people like Dan Patrick, in Texas, for example. But when we talk to the county boards, they’re like, no, she was great at her job. I wish he hadn’t left, like, now we have to find somebody else to do this job, right. Like, counties have to operate. And they have to do things for people like they have to conduct an election, by law, they have to get the ballots counted and certified by a certain date under law. And if they don’t do that, there are legal penalties. And so counties are actually not incentivized at all, to put your who’s into, like, hired positions, whether or not they run and get elected by the public. It’s an entirely different question. But, you know, when we were our Texas reporters Hall yet, when she went down to Gillespie County, all of the Republican all of the county officials who had picked her and had put her in this position were Republicans. And they were like, No, I would really like her to stay like we tried to give her a raise and everything right. And so you know, I think counties actually have to do the work of government. They are the workhorses of, of state government. And so the buck with all of this horrible rhetoric sort of stops with them. And so, you see a lot of rancorous talk from like, GOP county chairs, but you don’t see a lot of it from like, GOP county executives.

Jenna Spinelle And so in addition to these, like physical threats that that county election officials are receiving, there’s like the bureaucratic your requests and that form of it. I know you wrote a piece about this for Votebeat recently. Can you tell us about that, like what what that side of things look like? What like record requests and how that fits into this picture.

Jessica Huseman This is a really insane thing that I’ve genuinely never seen before, which was that these elections offices, which again, I know broken record, one woman in an office maybe right like that’s it are getting pelted with records requests, and not records request. For anything useful. Like there, there’s hundreds and hundreds of people sending in identically worded records requests for things like caspo records, and caspo records are not helpful, like people who are requesting them clearly think that they’ll be able to use that to make sure that their ballot count was counted in the way they intended. But that like completely defies the entire purpose of an anonymous secret ballot, right? Like you can’t use the cast vote record for that purpose. The only people who really get any use out of these are like researchers and election administrators. That’s it. And then they’re also being pelted with requests to like actually physically examine ballots from previous elections. So we covered a county in Texas, Tarrant County, which is where Fort Worth is, where they are a big elections office, like Fort Worth is a huge city. And so they do have enough staff to facilitate these huge records requests. And even a well resourced office like that had to dedicate an entire room that they had to put up cameras in to watch these people look at the ballots because you can’t remove the ballots from the facility. They have to stay there. There’s like federal law around this. And so they had to give up an entire room of their office for two weeks while these activists filtered in and out and they had staffers there that were not doing anything except for facilitating that and I think that the the real harm of these records requests Is that, like, they’re not getting anything useful from what they’re doing. And instead, they’re taking up hours and hours and hours of time that these election administrators need, because the midterms are in like two months. And so, you know, I mean, like, I’ve talked to election administrators, who were like, we have to hire a part time temporary staff just to handle public records requests right now. And, you know, I love public records, huge public records advocate, I sit on the board, the Texas Freedom of Information Foundation, like I would never say, ever, that people shouldn’t send in a public records request, if there is a public record that they genuinely and on a good faith basis want. But that is not what’s happening here. Like these people are pelting them with records requests, specifically to cause chaos and drive the office sort of to halt,

Jenna Spinelle We see and have seen a lot of like, very official, like capital V capital O reports about like there was, you know, there’s 0.00005 instances of actual fraud in the 2020 election, like these things continue to come out. But I feel like on some level, it just kind of makes things worse, or like re entrenches people’s already held beliefs about what happened or didn’t happen in the election. We know from social science, that the more people see information they disagree with, the harder it like locks in their views on that. So I guess I wonder if you are seeing like, any change in tactic to maybe move away from that approach of like, just, you know, hitting people with the fact that there was no fraud, there was no fraud, there was no fraud, or like, you know, something, some way to kind of reframe that that is not just going to, you know, continue to harden the the beliefs and the divides that already exist about this issue. Yeah,

Jessica Huseman That’s a really good question. And I’ve done a lot thinking about this, like it’s run a nonprofit newsroom that only talks about this weird stuff. So, you know, I think that the reason that people believe this stuff, is because they fundamentally don’t understand how voting works. And like, I mean, you know, and nor necessarily, should they, right? People engage with voting, usually, on average, once every four years, no one becomes an expert of a thing that they do for five minutes once every four years like this is not, this is not something that is deeply ingrained in the American psyche. Right. And so I think that if people understood the system better, right, if they understood how the machines were protected, if they understood what chain of custody for machines was if they understood how ballots were protected, and the cybersecurity sort of regime around voting, and they understood that elections are typically audited, and here’s how they’re audited, then I think people would not disagree with the assertion that voter fraud is extremely rare, right? The reason that it seems like it can happen a lot is because people don’t see the protective layers around voting when they go to vote, right? They show their ID, it is entirely plausible to them that somebody could come in with a fake ID, right? Even though that can’t actually happen, right? It’s entirely plausible to them that somebody could come in and like fill out a fake voter registration form. And even though there’s lots of protective layers around this, that prevents those things that they think are happening from happening, the coverage isn’t talking about that the coverage is just saying it didn’t happen. It’s not saying here’s why it can’t happen. And I think that that framework shift is really important, because these folks will continue to believe that the system was insecure, as long as they don’t understand how its secured. And so I think that the media needs to do a little bit better of a job going into these places, and showing the voting system and explaining to people how their county counts and certifies the vote, what measures are taken to ensure that the machines are clean and ready to go before the elections happen, logic and accuracy testing is really important, right? Like, there were all of these really interesting security steps that happen that I think the public is just not aware of. And on one hand, right, that’s, that’s the fault of the clerk’s because they have not until now had a particularly unified media strategy, or even been very welcoming to the media. But it’s also the media’s fault, right? Like, we deal with people who don’t want to talk to us all the time. It’s like, there’s no reason we shouldn’t have done it. And so, you know, I think that I think that both the media and clerks are realizing that they’ve got to kind of drop the curtain a little bit on these on these systems, because otherwise people are really going to continue to struggle with it.

Jenna Spinelle

You know, another barrier written about to kind of getting the word out is Facebook’s role in all of this. I’ve had posts from them. Courtney Institute for Democracy rejected or ads rejected because they’re flagged as too political or whatever Facebook’s reason is, but this is something that counties are also running into, and other folks who are just trying to put out information about how to vote some of the things we were talking about earlier, like process driven things.

Jessica Huseman Yeah. So you know, Facebook has decided that there will be no political advertising, like no new political ads will be approved in the seven day period before the election. They’ve been doing this for every federal election since 2018. But in 2020, they began to include election administration offices in their definition of what political advertising is. So in the seven days before elections, if there was a massive misinformation campaign, which is exactly when the misinformation campaign would happen, right? They are powerless to buy ads, that fact check it, right. Like they have to rely entirely on hon. And we’ve talked about this, their media strategy to get earned media, which these people don’t do, because they are one person in a county office with no press officer, right. And so this is actually materially harmful, I think, and in a way that I am shocked by and I have been trying, I think over the course of my career, I have asked Facebook 35 times for their justification for this. And not only have they not provided like that, not only if they provided you know nothing like it’s just radio silence, like they do not even respond to my requests for comment. They don’t respond to requests for comment from clerks who are complaining about this. They don’t respond like when anybody asks, and so it’s very difficult to understand the reasoning here. And I know I mean, if there’s a good reason, I would love to hear that I can’t conceive of one.

Jenna Spinelle And then you know, our audience, as we were chatting before we started recording is very, you know, interested in supporting democracy, however, they can’t what like how can folks support their county clerks and the people who work with them, particularly if they might be in an area where there’s the potential for some of these threats, or, you know, they’re getting maybe getting inundated with some of these record requests, like others, or anything that, you know, folks can do to show their support?

Jessica Huseman Go be a poll worker. I mean, I cannot say that with more seriousness, like, these offices would be immediately improved. If the public were to engage more like a perennial issue for these offices, that takes up an incredible amount of time and energy is that there is a shortage of poll workers in this country. And there always has been, and this is something that people can actually fix, right. And so I think, if the counties were being supported by the public, and this would have as poll workers just have a lot of cast off effects, right? If you’re engaged, you’ve gone to poll worker training, you’ve understood the system, like you’re another community member that has a commanding understanding of how elections work, so that when people you know, say things that are false, you can take something about it, right, like you, you can step in personally. And in the event that, you know, things really melt down on Election Day, which is, you know, probably going to happen in a few places, I don’t think it’s going to be common, and I don’t think it’s gonna happen everywhere. But there are going to be a handful of places that really struggle on election day, and in the run up to it. And having good poll workers who are there on a, for good reasons, be present to witness these things is really, really important. And so, you know, they’re, in addition to like, just directly being helpful. There’s there’s a lot of sort of benefits that come along with additional Poll Worker volunteers.

Jenna Spinelle Yeah. And then, last thing, Jessica. So what what are you and your team at at Votebeat? Gonna be watching working on in the time between now and the midterms?

Jessica Huseman So we have, we were partners in four states, they are Texas, Arizona, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. So um, basically light voting issues there. And so you know, I think that our reporters are really focused on tracing the patterns of the misinformation campaigns that these states are facing. So you know, we can combat misinformation all day long, right, but like, it’s kind of like playing Whack a Mole. And that’s just not a productive use of our time, given that we have four total reporters. And so we’re going to try to trace these misinformation campaigns back to their origin. And that tends to be in their social science research to suggest this right? Like, when you find the origin of a thing and then debunk the origin or like cast out on the origin people are much less likely to are much more likely I’m sorry to change their mind on a thing. And so given are largely limited resources in terms of like human capital. We that’s, I think, the most effective thing that we can do. And so we’re really trying hard to dig in there. Right?

Jenna Spinelle Well, we will link to vote be and also to power the polls, which is a poll worker recruitment organization in the show notes, so listeners can check out those resources. But, Jessica, thank you so much for joining us today.

Jessica Huseman Thank you. This was fun.

Chris Beem All right. Well, Candis, I just wanted to circle back to something you mentioned, which is this legislation that was that has been proposed to kind of address some of these problems. Do you want to just talk about that a little bit?

Candis Watts Smith  Yeah. So well, just to just to note to the U.S. Justice Department is apparently currently investigating more than 100 cases of threats against local election officials. And recently, late last month, 17 Democratic senators proposed legislation called the election Worker Protection Act, which does the work of kind of recruiting, training and trying to retain election, election administrators, but also to protect them protect their identification, so that they are not doxed. Also, that their family members are not doxed to make threatening, intimidating or courier seeing election workers a federal crime, to you know, prohibit voter intimidation, I what I think is, one, there’s sometimes sometimes in my class, you know, I have these rules about what I’m going to allow students to have publicly and like, what I’ll share with them, and so on and so forth. And I often explain to them, the reason why we have certain rules is because somebody did a thing that made us have a rule. And this, I think, very much reveals that is that, you know, we’ve seen this kind of massive uptick in poor behavior, threatening behavior, racist behavior, sexist threats, so on and so forth. And so now we have to have a law about it. Right, because people cannot act, right.

Chris Beem Yeah, I mean, I mean, legislation, more often than not, is closing the barn door after the horse has gone. Right. I mean, almost always responding to something that happened. And but in this case, it’s it’s a good idea, right? I mean, everything you just said, you know, responds directly to what we are talking about. And it is, it is a sorry, reflection on our time. But but it is also these are the means by which we address these things. Right? Well, I

Candis Watts Smith 

mean, actually, I would go so far to say is, I think that there are a lot of election officials across the parties across the country that are at local levels that recognize that this is a problem. And it’s a problem for their personal lives. And for the people that they work with, in comparison to, as Jessica mentioned, people in Congress, people in Congress have the Capitol police to protect them, they have the FBI to follow up on what appears to be serious threats, right. Local officials don’t have that same kind of level and depth of protection. And so, you know, unfortunately, bringing back the point that you brought up earlier, is that while election officials are the backbone of democracy, for many, they are the face of fraud, and that they can be used as political pawns.

Chris Beem I mean, if you know, if you see a conspiracy, as being the fundamental reality of our politics in our society, and elite conspiracy, then you know, you have and you’re taught and you think that’s manifested in elections, then of course, you’re going to see these, you know, these people were driving around in late model Honda Civics, you know, who walk out the front door and have no more protection than any of us do. You’re going to see them as part of this threat. I mean, you know, on the face of it, it’s absurd. But if that’s your world, and that’s the dumb mindset that you’re in, you have no choice but to see them as part of that because they’re the ones who administer elections.

Candis Watts Smith  So I like the work that this election Worker Protection Act is trying to do. But one of the other there are a couple of things that it doesn’t mention, at least from what I can tell that Jessica brought up and one is about being overworked and overwhelmed by records requests. Oh, that’s

Chris Beem Yeah, talk a lot about that. It’s really interesting.

Candis Watts Smith 

You know, like the requests are completely legal.

Chris Beem Right? The thing right there.

Candis Watts Smith  I mean, I like my not my personal scholarship, but many of the colleagues that I have, that are concerned about access to voting, who are, you know, look for kind of bear verify, like, you know, people say in surveys, I voted, but we can use these record requests to kind of verify voters so that we know, like, what is it that voters are thinking feeling? What are their kind of motivations? How do we understand the electorate, and a more nuanced way. So using, you know, requesting these records to I think, you know, maybe move us toward true or truths is helpful. But we see that, you know, there are people who are just trying to gum up the machine. And I don’t, you know, I’m sure that it’s difficult to make a policy around intention. But there’s something to be said about, about folks just asking for things, so that people are prevented from doing the thing that they’re supposed to be doing, which is ensuring that we have safe and fair elections.

Chris Beem And I really liked the fact that Jessica spent so much time saying, you know, it’s not like you can just fake this, right? That is why, you know, the Brennan Center, and others have done systematic studies of voter fraud and found, you know, point oh, oh, 1% of ballots cast, it’s just not happening. And I think she’s right to say that the media needs to do a better job of, of accounting for the kind of security that is a normal standard part of American elections.

Candis Watts Smith  So I think that the barriers and landmines that they are experiencing, is a reflection of the extent to which we actually value democracy, that if we really did care, then we would ensure that the people who do the hard work of making sure our elections run smoothly, are able to do so to the best of their ability. And without threat, intimidation, or coercion.

Chris Beem The only thing I would say is, you know, we have an election coming up in about a month. So you know, if you listen to this podcast, I’m gonna say odds are pretty good that you’re gonna vote. So when you vote, make, just try to remember to thank the people who are at the voting place, because they’re not doing it because they’re out to undermine democracy. They’re doing it because they’re trying to serve democracy. And they’re doing it for coffee and donuts. That’s what they’re doing and for their compensation, so it’s worth just saying thank you,

Candis Watts Smith  In the spirit of thanking, I also would think, Jessica Huseman for the work that Votebeat is doing is highlighting the kind of at the at the level of where things are supposed to work. And the people who are doing the hard work of making elections work of allowing our kind of preferences and desires turn into, into votes, right, and so that we can cast our ballots and hopefully see the things that we want out of policy and out of our representatives, there is a process and these folks make that process work smoothly. So I also we should also extend our thanks to Jessica and the small group of a journalist on her team who are doing really phenomenal work here.

Chris Beem I agree. EJ Dionne talks about antibodies of democracy, and that’s clearly what, what Votebeat is. So, anyway, great interview Jenna. Thanks to Jessica. And thanks to Candis. I’m Chris Beem.

Candis Watts Smith  And I’m Candis Watts Smith. Thanks for listening.