No doctors, no charities, no family members - just a frank conversation between two women with chronic illness, about navigating life when energy is at a premium. Faced with a box of random questions such as “do people think you’re lazy?” researcher Catherine Hale and blogger Natasha Lipman praise left-overs for dinner, extreme flexible working and the online chronic illness community. Ironing, and suggestions like “have you ever tried telling it to just go away?” get short shrift. This podcast is one in a series of monthly Ouch take-overs, produced by Damon Rose and Emma Tracey. If you have an idea for a future take-over, email ouch@bbc.co.uk. Subscribe to Ouch as a weekly podcast and, if you wouldn't mind, we'd be delighted if you could review us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts from - it helps other people find us.