Retired Intelligence Detective Gary Jenkins brings you the best in mob history with his unique perception of the mafia. In this episode, Gary and mob lawyer expert Tony Taouk examine the life and career of famous mafia lawyer Oscar Goodman. Based in Las Vegas, Oscar Goodman has been the Midwest and Western Mob’s go-to lawyer for his 40-year career. Oscar Goodman remained professional in all his encounters with Mob bosses like Tony Spilotro, Nick Civella, Lefty Rosenthal and many others. Mr. Goodman’s most dramatic courtroom victory had to be when he obtained a Not Guilty verdict for the El Paso drug kingpin, Jimmy Chagra. In this case, juries convicted Woody Harrelson’s father, Charles Harrelson, for the murder of Texas Federal Judge John “Maximum John” Wood in El Paso. The government claimed that Jimmy Chagra paid Harrelson to murder the judge. Harrelson’s wife, Chagra’s wife, and Chagra’s brother were all convicted in the same case.

Tony Taouk is an Australian lawyer and a Mafia researcher who specializes in the subject of mob trials and mob lawyers. He has also traveled to the United States and visited mob-related sites in New York, Chicago, and Las Vegas. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Remember to click on www.BetterHelp.com/gangland for 10% off Subscribe to the Podcast for a new gangster story every week.

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Transcript SPEAKERS Lefty Rosenthal, Announcer, GARY JENKINS, Tony Taourk, Harry Reid, Oscar Goodman, Tuffy DeLuna, Nick Civella

00:00 Frank Rosenthal was obviously ruffling a few feathers because he’s high profile battle with the authorities in Las Vegas to obtain his gaming license was attracting too much attention which the mob, especially the Chicago outfit tended to shun. Apparently he made it even worse when he started his own talk show on television.

00:22 Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Why stop snowing.

00:30 And Frank Rosenthal was who was already a colorful gambling figure he had attracted the attention of the authorities because of his ties to the Chicago outfit. He was a bookmaker gambler, and he was also implicated in multiple sports bribery scandals over the years, so he was already attracting a lot of attention. They just wanted him to come down.

00:55 lack of better word.

01:00 I think that’s what it was referred to that why tap? Isn’t that right?

01:03 Yeah. Yeah, that’s it. Well, welcome. While you were to average out there, back here in studio of Gangland Wire, I’m on the Zoom call. If you’re on YouTube, with our friend, Tony Taourk from Sydney, Australia. Tony is a lawyer down there, and he has a huge interest in mob lawyers and being lawyer, you know, you got to have interest in other lawyers. And when you look into them, you want to see a lot more about how they work and what made them successful or not successful. I know I do the same thing when I read about Mob lawyers. And so Tony has done that. And you know, we’ve done one other show about Roy Cohen with him, which was really interesting. I didn’t know hardly anything about Roy Cohn at the time. Tonight, we’re gonna do Oscar Goodman. I know a lot about Oscar good. And then because I sat in the witness chair while he cross examined me one time scared the heck out of me. He wasn’t that big a deal, but I didn’t have that much to say. Anyhow. So welcome, Tony. It’s really good to have you back.

02:00 Thank you for having me, Gary.

02:02 So how’s the weather down? downers? It’s fall down there, isn’t it?

02:07 It’s at the moment. It’s, it’s actually it’s late summer, but it’s rainy and miserable today.

02:15 Oh, really? Yes. Your winters? You’re in Sydney, right? Yes. And your winters? Do they get very bad at all? Or is it still pretty moderate? Are you closer to the equator say than we are here in Missouri?

02:29 Nothing compared to the United States. Okay. Yeah. Very mild compared to the US. I’ve been to the US in winter and it’s very mild.

02:38 Okay. It’s hell in the winter here. So you’ve been in Las Vegas more than once. I believe. You’ve been to the mob Museum? Yes, I have. So I really liked it. Yeah, it’s a great place that you know, guys if you know it, or don’t if you don’t know it. Oscar Goodman was a big reason that they even got that mob Museum in Las Vegas. He was the mayor at the time he had all this experience with mobsters, of course, who were they go to to get his blessing to put that kind of money into a a building that was close to downtown. I needed the city of Las Vegas on board and Oscar Goodman was all over he a really up to him to have the final say so and he was all over these on the board. He’s still active in the running of it and sitting on the board and he has the restaurant there was at Oscars. Is that the name of it? Did you eat it? And I’ve been there once we just was bunch of people. We had drinks. So I

03:37 went there, but I never I couldn’t get a hold of him. I couldn’t meet him. I went there twice. And I wasn’t able to meet him. I think he was out of town at the time.

03:45 Yeah, he’s kind of available. He goes in and out of that restaurants. My understanding.

03:49 Yeah. Well, I went there twice. And I couldn’t find him. It’s in. It’s in old Vegas, next to the Golden Nugget and opinions and isn’t it?

03:57 Brian? Is what we would call Downtown.

04:00 Downtown. Downtown Las Vegas.

04:04 That Fremont strip Fremont experiences down there which is crazy. The craziest place that was ever had, I think. Yes. Anyhow, let’s talk about Oscar Goodman, his legal career. Now he came he did not grow up in Las Vegas. Where did you find he came from?

04:22 He’s originally from Philadelphia. He received his law degree from the University of Pennsylvania in 1964. After a short stint in the Philadelphia District Attorney’s Office, Oscar moved to Las Vegas in 1965, where he set up a legal practice and he began accepting any work that came through the door especially court appointed criminal cases, he began to attract national attention in 1970. That year they successfully defended 12 suspected bookmakers who had been arrested in a nationwide nationwide raids are Based on wiretaps. Now in the course of defending the bookmakers, he learned that the then Attorney General John Mitchell had delegated authority for the wiretap for approving the wiretaps to his executive assistant. Rather than signing them personally, the law required that the Attorney General sign them personally. Goodman seized on this error to get the wiretap evidence excluded, not admissible, and the charges against all the defendants were dropped as a result of the nationwide publicity generated by this case, he began to attract other high profile clientele, including people connected to organized crime. Another big break was when he represented my olanski, who needs no introduction. He was accused of stealing millions of dollars from the flamingo Hotel in Las Vegas in the early 1970s. And he retained Oscar Goodman to defend him, Goodman managed to get the charges against Lansky dropped on the grounds that he was too ill to be tried in the early 1970s. Goodman was retained by a man who was destined to become his most notorious client, Tony Spilotro. He’s the reputed Chicago mobster who apparently was sent to Las Vegas by the outfit to oversee its interests there, namely the skin now the character Nikki Santoro in the movie casino, brilliantly portrayed by Joe Pesci is based on Tony Spilotro, Spilotro Spilotro as the suspect in more than two dozen killings and various other crimes, and he was never convicted thanks largely to the efforts of Oscar Goodman. I’m not going to go over all the cases where Goodman acted for Spilotro because I’m going to focus on the more notorious and notable ones given the limited time we have won examples when in 1983. Spilotro was indicted for the execution style slogans of two hoodlums in Chicago in 1962 20 years prior, these particular these killings were particularly gruesome because one of the men’s heads was placed in a vise and squeezed into his eyeball popped out, as portrayed in the movie Casino. The chief prosecution witness was Watrous former associate a burglar and career criminal who became an informant Frank colada. sure everyone’s heard of him. He died recently, I think from COVID. Goodman like most effective mob lawyers, he was very good at portraying the informants used by the prosecution as just as bad if not worse than his clients. And there was plenty of material to seize upon, given their vast criminal academic credentials spanning decades in some cases. In the course of his testimony, colada admitted involvement in a vast litany of crimes including perjury, and for murders and Spilotro was subsequently acquitted. Goodman kept defending Spilotro until he turned up dead in a Indiana cornfield in 1986. I believe he was under indictment at the time of his death. Oscar’s biggest victory came when he successfully defended Jimmy Chagra, a Texas gambler and drug trafficker charged with plotting the 1979 assassination of the US Federal Court Judge John H. Wood Jr. in San Antonio, Texas. Now, Judge Wood was due to preside over Chagra’s upcoming trial for drug trafficking, and he was renowned for handed down very harsh sentences for drug related offenses. To the point where he earned the nickname Maximum John. that nickname from what I’ve read about him. He wasn’t very fair in his verdicts, it is. It is sentences he was just way too harsh. Very excessive, I would say. It was the first killing of a federal judge in the 20th century. The prosecution claimed that Chagra paid Hitman Charles Harrellson who’s incidentally actor Woody Harrellson’s house father, $250,000 to murder the judge. The case was particularly difficult for the defense. The defendants brother had pleaded guilty to conspiracy in the plot to kill the judge. Also, the government’s case was based primarily on tape conversations between chakra and various people, and in particular, a jailhouse conversation with a convicted criminal serving a life term Leavenworth. His name was Jerry Ray James, Jerry Ray James testified that Chagra bragged to him at the second meeting in prison that he was responsible for having judgment killed, pretty damaging stuff. Goodman managed to discredit James by blasting holes in his two testimony, of course and shaming the government for making a sweetheart sweetheart deal with him in return for his cooperation in relation to the admission that he led the jailhouse admission that he allegedly made. Goodman argued that Chagra bragged about being responsible for the judge’s killing falsely, only to look like a tough guy to other prison mates in Leavenworth, in relation to the money allegedly paid for the hit. Interestingly, Goodman didn’t deny that chakra paid house and the $250,000 as any other lawyer would, I would imagine. Instead, he convinced the jury that the $250,000 orders was blackmail money. Charles Harrellson had extorted from Chagra after the fact Chagra was acquitted in a stunning verdict that significantly bolstered his status in national legal circles. Goodman returned to his hometown Philadelphia in the mid 19 1980s, to defend the murder of Nicky Scarfo, who I’m sure your viewers have heard of, when he faced an array of charges that included among other things conspiracy to take over a multimillion dollar drug ring, and the murder of a mobster known as Salvador Testa. As usual, the chief witnesses in both cases were ex mobsters turned informants, good men, again, use their unsavory backgrounds and inconsistencies in their testimonies to destroy the credibility and scarf on us associates were acquitted on both occasions. But as you know, even if you have the best lawyers at your side, if the government keeps throwing mud up against the wall, eventually some of its going to stick prosecutors kept up the pressure on Scarfo. And eventually his luck ran out is he was convicted three times for conspiracy racketeering, and first degree murder and he spent the rest of his life in prison. This is where it gets really interesting. With Oscar’s career, he spent his entire career openly broadcasting his animosity towards the FBI, federal, state prosecutors local law enforcement, and took every opportunity to tell the media that we’re no better than his clients. And in turn law enforcement as well constantly implied that he was more than a lawyer for his for his clients that he was some kind of advisor consider the areas. And that’s not unusual because mob lawyers are seen as mere accessories to their clients a lot of the time. And they get tarred with the same brush all the time. Now you think that such a, with such a colorful client list in history and being so hated by law enforcement, he’d be the last person who would dare to have political aspirations over the now over the decades, I’ve heard of many mob lawyers who represent the mob. They’ve been indicted, disbarred not all of them, but a lot of them indicted disbarred jailed, on some occasions even jailed and killed or maimed. Goodman avoided all that somehow was able to spin all the negative publicity in his title his mob lawyer into gold and run for mayor of Las Vegas. He was elected mayor of Las Vegas three times from 1999 until 2011. And then after he finished his wife, I believe they became mayor succeeded him and she’s currently the mayor of Las Vegas, I believe, as the old adage says, Only in America.

13:20 That is that’s a heck of a story when I first heard he was the Las Vegas mayor. Of course, at the time, I still had the idea that all mob lawyers were part of the mob and you know, just like what you said, Tony, but apparently he was the more I learned about him and more I read about him, but John Smith did a book called Of Mice and Men that’s pretty intense look at the life of Oscar Goodman and, and he was not he was just a lawyer and and I became a lawyer myself. I understood the deal. You know, you’re just a lawyer. You’re not now but just a lawyer. So it’s, but he hated informants. He made that well known and he was a master, a master discrediting these informants who would get up and testify. And that’s why I couldn’t get that first conviction on Tony’s blogto because right colada had a lot of dirty laundry.

14:18 He was pretty good at discrediting informants especially was the same drill. They just did get some even though the prosecutors would get them to reveal their unsavory backgrounds. He would really hone in on it and bring out the worst. And you know, the jury will be standing they just look and think God, is this guy any better than the defendant given a little

14:42 Oscar’s, you know, going back to that Jimmy Chagra case, not only his brother his own brother Joe Chagra copped a plea on that case his wife copped a plea to for taking the pay off money to uh Charles Charles Harrelson, his wife or girlfriend, I can’t remember which. And so she she served time and he never did for that other than while he was in on bond, they caught him on another case in the end with his marijuana distribution operation and ended up getting almost life. He got out sometime the last few years and died shortly after he got out. You know, it was just that was amazing that he got him off now. And Oscar may have sought out something that I don’t know if he introduced this. But in reading a book about that case, this Charles Harrelson, one of his early murders, was a kind of a murder where he murdered somebody that some rich guy down somewhere in Texas, he knew that the guy wanted this person killed. So he goes and kills him. Then he goes to him afterwards said, Hey, I took care of this for you, you know, pay me. And if you think about it, he very likely could have done that he could have killed Judge Wood and then gone to Jimmy Jagger and said, Hey, pay me pay me dude. And Harrelson was the kind of guy that you know going to print the president bother him. You know, he, he was just one of those guys. He just, he was nuts, boy, and so that I think maybe that was a good defense, then and I got a feeling from reading that book that might have been what happened. So why Oscars, he finds that that one chink in the government’s armor and the government’s case, he’ll find that one thing, just like the who signs actually signed the wiretap order that takes a lot of research and attention to detail, you go back and find all that paperwork government gives you five boxes, five banks or bankers boxes full of information and hours and hours and hours of wiretaps. And he thought enough to go all the way back and look at the basis for those wiretaps. And then notice that one little detail and many other lawyer could easily just look over and not pay any attention to it. So that was a guy was good.

17:04 Yes. And in that Chagra case, yeah, actually was successfully moving the case from Texas or from Las Vegas, to Jacksonville, Florida, to make sure the jury was impartial. And taking that course of admitting that he did pay the $250,000 was extremely risky. It could have gone the other way very easily. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, you took the risk and you succeeded, but I mean, any most lawyers were wouldn’t dare take a risk like that. Because implies guilt as soon as you hand over that money, especially $250,000.

17:38 Yeah, that was like I said, he finds a weak point, the weak spot in the case and goes forward and he has a nose for that everybody doesn’t have a nose for that is really interesting. You know, I said earlier that I had once been cross examined by him he was the he during the skim trouser skimming from Las Vegas. He was already Tony Spilotro is lawyer and Tony was charged in this skim. So Nick Civella had used, our Boss here in Kansas City had used Oscar quite a little bit and he but he couldn’t use him for the skim trial and he died before the trials actually got going. Anyhow, he was indicted, but then he died before the trial so he didn’t matter anyhow, but and then Tony Spilotro died or as killed before he was actually tried for the skimming from Las Vegas who had been interesting because they wouldn’t have done it in Kansas City. He was back here with Tony a few times in Kansas City and then Tony got a continuance I believe, because he had a heart attack or something. So it wasn’t tried with the rest of the people on the screaming from Las Vegas trials. We had Aiuppa and Jackie Cerone and Angelo LaPrietra and, of course Nick Civella and Cork Civella and Tuffy DeLuna, all of our bosses in Kansas City. And couple more from Chicago, JOey Lombardo are all had to stand trial for that scamming. So it was it was like mob central in our courthouse in downtown Kansas City for a while. But Oscar Goodman didn’t have to stick around because Tony got that continuance when he I think Go ahead.

19:14 Oh, I think he was under indictment for that skimming trial when he died. You got Tony Spilotro? Yes. And Goodman was representing him as well.

19:24 With regard to what I ran into him, he was defending that Nick Civella’s nephew, Anthony, Tony Ripe Civella on a case where they were he and several other guys here in Kansas City had set up some companies to make it look like they own several nursing homes, and they’re able to buy pharmaceuticals at a huge discount. They were supposed to go to nursing homes only and they didn’t they went into a warehouse and then Tony Ripe had a contact out in Nevada that had several pharmacies independently owned pharmacies and then they would sell it retail at We those pharmacies, and we call it a gray market drug operation. And he was he was a lawyer on that, for Tony Ripe Civella. And I had the testified that it was kind of fun to do these cases, they have all these little pieces that the prosecutors put in place. And one little piece was came off of a wire that Tony Ripe was gonna go meet one of his confederates, the guy who actually had the little warehouse and ran a little warehouse and just like a kind of a storefront looking thing that they would drop off these boxes and boxes of pharmaceuticals that are another, somebody would package them up and then ship them out Nevada. And Tony Wright was supposed to meet this guy at a restaurant. For some reason, they didn’t know exactly why they called me up, they called out the unit say, Hey, can you get two guys down to the Marty’s barbecue right away because Nick uh, Tony Ripe Civella is gonna meet somebody down there, we need to know who it is. I grabbed this other guy, we run down there and we start eating, it was a barbecue. And we start eating our barbecue. And all of a sudden, there’s a young kid looking guy sitting in there. And then also I’m telling you, Ripe comes in, he sits down with this guy, it’s like, what the heck, I mean, this kid just look like, I don’t know, just look like some guy that you know, work for the phone company or something. And right sits down there and they chat a little bit. And you know, I’m watching them out of the corner of my eye. And pretty soon I see Ripe takes somehting out of his pocket, he gets a pen out. And he writes on something, he tears it out and hands it this kid like you were to check, but I couldn’t really see what it was. They say by both leave each their own way and somebody else’s outside, they pick up the tag on this kid, the license plate, like identify who he is, and then show me a picture and say, Yeah, that’s what it was. Well, that was, you know, that’s who they thought it was gonna be. And, and that’s what they thought they were gonna see is him write the check to this guy. And then they go this guy’s count and get the check. So they present all that as evidence. And of course, I don’t know this, I’m sitting outside, they make all the witnesses stay out of the courtroom, except for when you testify unless you’re and then if you’re done, you can come back in. Otherwise you get to stay out of the courtroom. And so I go in there the day before, actually, the US attorney about four of them sat me down and they just grill me and pepper me with questions. And we’re acted like they were mad at me and aggressive and then backed off and then got aggressive again, tried to see if I would waffle a little bit in any way. And it was such a small thing. But that’s how, how prepared those guys were. So I go on there. And the next day I walk in and there’s a whole courtroom filled with Sybella relatives and mob associates, everything. They’re all staring daggers at me as I walk down and tell my story, of course. And then Oscar Goodman gets up and you know, I was like, oh, and they get oh god, he’s gonna like go after me. But, you know, he just said, awesome. You know how far away were you away from Mr. Civella? I said, well, you know, from here to the witness chair over there to the end of the jury box. And okay, so now, did you have an unobstructed view? Yes, I did. Well, now, could you see exactly what they were doing? No, I couldn’t see exactly what they were doing. Well, did you know for sure that that was a chat. No, I didn’t know what it was. And you know, just question after question after question. But in a real nice, pleasant voice. That was, you know, was no nonsense, but you know, no yelling or screaming or trying to browbeat me or tripped me up or anything. And then okay, no further questions. I breathed a sigh of relief and walked out. I didn’t screw this one up. But it’s intimidating. Trust me. It’s intimidating to go into federal courtroom like that. And then know you’re gonna be cross examined by one of these big time well known

23:53 lawyers. Yeah, definitely.

23:57 And then during this time, or not, during this time, but during the skim trials, you know, can city family in Chicago, Milwaukee and Cleveland are all skimming money from the star desk casino who are lefty was really in charge of this gaming outfit and put him in charge. I sent him out there to do that. And once they got their hooks in and he set up all the people that he needed in certain places to be able to skim the money out and send it back to Chicago and he would send it on to us in Kansas City and Milwaukee and Cleveland. Oscar was defending lefty Rosenthal, because he had a lawsuit going against the gaming control board. They were trying to kick him out because they knew that he had been convicted of bribery of college basketball players. He was a mob associate out of Chicago, and everything that you needed to go into the black book and not be allowed what they call a Key License in Las Vegas, if you don’t have a key license and you can’t have anything to do with any of the gaming or any of the money. Lefty had been working there as a food and beverage manager and then they changed him over to entertainment director and that’s when he started his TV show. You know, you remember the TV show, don’t you? Have you ever seen those clips?

25:19 Feed? We’re often quick to defend the teamsters loans to Las Vegas, acknowledging that the 67 million to Glick looked a little fishy.

25:28 Tonight, live, the all new Frank Rosenthal Show the Stardust hotel in the heart of the Las Vegas Strip. It’s the all new Frank Rosenthal show. Ladies and gentlemen, a man who is experienced as a columnist, operator of four casinos and three hotels, one boasting the longest running most successful entertainment spectacular in America. A professional gambler whose Sports Illustrated acclaimed as the best football handicapper in America, a man who will take you inside sports as no one else has ever done before. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Frank Rosenthal!

26:38 Yeah, apparently was a horrible TV show. Oscar Goodman. It was the worst TV show in television history. I’ve seen segments over in YouTube, but I haven’t watched a full show. But he wasn’t much of a host apparently.

26:53 But you know, he got. I saw him interview Frank Sinatra course, you know, Frank Sinatra. The Mobs gonna get him to show up no matter how bad the show is. And he had Muhammad Ali on their own in the saw one clip he had a lot of people that were playing Vegas within probably a part of their contract was to go beyond that show or they encouraged it would be on that show to get a little publicity for their appearance there. So anyhow, let us run that but they were hounding him. And he took this they took this all the way to Nevada Supreme Court and got the first banning overturn. But he still he went that’s when he went back. I believe that’s when he was like the food and beverage director. And then he went back in after that got overturned and then became an entertainment director. And then they moved on him again, of course and, and in Kansas City, we’re talking. Tuffy DeLuna, our underboss, is talking on a daily basis back and forth with Joe Agosto with the Tropicana. And he’s like their mole. He’s telling them everything that Lefties doing and tell him about in great detail about his problems with the gaming control board and Nick Civella is having a side conversations with Tuffy DeLuna worried about this because he’s creating so much publicity and Nick Civella did not want any publicity brought on to lefty Rosenthal, because you’ll end up getting the scim uncovered. But Lefty won’t give it up and Nick wants him to give it up.

28:25 If Lefty was to get a phone call from somebody, it might islow him down even if he tried to rationalize

28:39 I try to raltionize our position. I may call him. I’ve been told more than once you want to be sure of course you’ve got a right to do going to give us a call. courtesy call. You won’t have to call it

29:01 I don’t see a fucking thing wrong with it all the regions I have asked to go get a whole lot. Have him call me back. Well, I want to jump in.

29:26 Then Nick has this conversation one day he said Well, should I can I call Oscar Do you think I should call Oscar to get gotta get to talk to the lefty or I need to talk to lefty I think I can talk to lefty directly or do I need to check with them up north? I mean in Chicago and and stuff he says you know you can talk to him directly. You know that we had that settled at that meeting. They’d had a meeting several years before that and obviously they settled that if Nick Civella if he needed to tell Lefty to do something he could tell him directly. So Lefty is owned by Chicago. That’s a big deal in that world who’s owned by who. Nick can’t get Lefty. He can’t. He’s got to get him on a you know, like a secret phone. He’s got to get a message to him to call him from a payphone to a number that’s never been used by Nick before in Kansas City. He’s working to do that is trying to get messages to him indirectly. So one day he calls Oscar Goodman. Now you listened to that tape. Pretty interesting isn’t it Tony?

30:27 Yes, yes. Yes.

30:29 How cagey Oscar was, he was so cagey, he didn’t give up anything because he represented Lefty, and then Nick was trying to get the trying to convince him in a real obtuse way that he needs to get Lefty to calm down. It seemed to me like and get message to talk to him. But it was it was really interesting tape.

30:56 He was obviously ruffling a few feathers with his high profile battle with the authorities, which he took all the way. He challenged the decision of the gaming control board, and it was attracting too much attention and they just didn’t like all that attention. And they felt like he was going to fall.

31:13 Yeah, that was even the famous scene that was recreated in the movie casino where Tommy Smothers played Harry Reid, who’s the chairman of the gaming control board, and Lefty is there yet he’s wearing a hat in the gaming Control Board hearing. He didn’t do that in the movie, but in the room when he did. And when Joe Agosto was telling Tuffy about it, he said somebody’s where he wouldn’t wouldn’t even take off his hat. He was disrespectful to the board. He was smoking cigarettes inside the boardroom. He wouldn’t even take off his hat and tough he says, What’s the deal? Well, I didn’t take off his hat, he said, always got to earplugs, you know, he’s got to hairplugs. So he had, Lefty had just gotten fresh hairplugs in when he was doing this. And he knew there was going to be cameras there. So it’s like one a little slice of real life of mob history is that conversation about that

32:07 confrontation between Rosenthal and then Gaming Commission Chairman Harry Reid, and enraged Rosenthal accused Reed of double crossing him after asking for favors from Rosenthal in the past. It was a confrontation that would earn Rosenthal, the underworld nickname of Crazy. And that illustrated the arrogance that the Chicago my boys displayed in what they viewed as their town, Las Vegas.

32:32 This was predictable. They would not even allow me. No inconsistency. When the chairman had told us, that he would give us 10 days, whatever time we needed, until George Swartz spoke up in the kangaroo court. And today, he pounded his gavel, in accordance with his commissioners. I call him a hypocrite and the fellow members of this condition to deny me a fair hearing.

33:07 I’d like to answer that Mr. Rosenthal is being very typical to this point he’s lying. The only time Ihave ever been in the Stardust with Brian Greenspun was long prior to my getting on the commission. And, in fact, I rode in the same car with Mr. Brian Greenspun.

33:25 And he had lunch with me in the Stardust hotel and Brian Greenspun. And was that a lie to?

33:32 While I wait, Brian greenspun and I ate in the Stardust hotel. Was I there? You are wandering around. Thank

33:38 you. So that this conversation with Nick and folks are just here’s a little snippet of that, but listen to this. It’s really interesting.

33:46 It’s Oscar Goodman. Oh, yes. Hello. Hi. How are you? Very good. How you doing? Certainly. How are you doing?

33:54 I’m good. And tell you first, how’s it Mrs. And grace and the rest of the children,

34:01 they’re all doing fine.

34:02 I was reading some of your local papers and some things are turning out pretty fair.

34:08 Some are very good. Some are very good. Others are gonna be a little tougher, but some are very good.

34:13 are you rushing Are you always talk fast? I

34:15 I always talk to people I know. You’re not at all.

34:22 Maybe, I don’t know how to put this. One of your clients, you know, you and I touched on once before by you have a definite opinion about whether he’s going to pull off or is he on to going forward as

34:38 I understand it? That is that’s his position. As I understand it, there’s been nothing that has ever been conveyed to me the contract

34:49 tell you this, but you then you gotta leave it right.

34:52 Or, you know, okay, I

34:53 was gonna ask you to get a whole lot to have him reach me but i have done that so please forget. Okay, fine. Yes. You’re about nothing about nothing. Nobody? No, no, he will get back to me. Let’s do that I’ll do it my own way.

35:11 Are we good? I won’t even say anything. But can I

35:14 can I ask you we’re not trying to compromise, you know, just as good as one, you know,friend to another. What is your position?

35:29 Well, we get into that whole psychological profile. Yeah, thank you, Jeff. The old story, the old story.

35:39 But would you agree, and he made the opening up a tremendous big can of worms.

35:46 I might agree to that. But he would never

35:50 normally. I don’t think he’s ever made a mistake of

35:53 his life. Right. My God, I thought people like that, you know, right. But with the timing of certain things here, and things that are happening in town, it’s a shame that everything’s culminating at the same time. Because one thing is going to affect others. That’s why there’s nothing I can do tto stop this,

36:12 Have you expressed your opinions and ???

36:15 Not not as strongly as I’m stating it to you a wide audience, because it would get all over do it’s good to have another lawyer represented.

36:23 So but as a man as a, as a, I see, I guess. I just thought maybe I just tried for the shoulder thing and say, Look, you’re on gonna do it probably. But I’d be remiss if I didn’t tell you exactly how I feel, you know.

36:42 we’re about five years too late. Oh, really? Yes.

36:47 Tony, what do you think was Oscar Goodman really being cagey or what?

36:52 Absolutely. He was doing his best to just kind of politely without being rude. You know, in the best way possible. Tell civility that he will do his best, you know, there’s only so much I can do and whatnot. But he was placed in a very difficult position. He’s acting for Rosenthal . And he has a duty to act in Rosenthal’s best interest and ct based on his instructions. For a third party to come in and tell him to calm it down. He would be breaching his duty to Rosenthal

37:23 That bad place to be in? Have?

37:27 He handled it very well.

37:28 He did. He did. But to have a mob boss call you out and say, calm this guy down and the way he handled it. That was He was good. I was impressed with that. I liked that last little thing that Nick threw in.

37:43 Of course, I’ve just repeating our conversation stays confidence of mine. I didn’t even talk to the client attorney. Right. Very good. Thank you, buddy. And my best. My best everybody. Thank you very much.

37:56 And you know, another thing is Oscar always hated informants, right? He was he was vocal about that he would he would tell newspaper reporters he would make statements in public about informants and always discrediting informants, especially Frank Cullotta. You hated Frank Frank Culotta. Then in the end, I know people have brought this to him now because he’s still alive out there. Lefty Rosenthal was a top echelon informant for the FBI. Oh,

38:25 that was interesting. That only came out a few years ago. Right? What’s the positive

38:30 after after he died? And usually the FBI won’t even verified after their informants dead because they don’t want other people who they’re trying to turn to think, Oh, well, as soon as I die, they’ll let the cat out of the bag and then all my family will pay the price which they will in that world, your blood family ended up paying the price. Other people if it comes out your informant, and I know I mentioned to a local FBI agent who was the case agent on the scam. And I said you know I just read the Las Vegas review journal. There’s a reporter named Janeane Morrison that said she had a FBI source that verified that lefty Rosenthal was a top echelon informant, and he still wouldn’t admit it or verify it. He just gave me this disgusted look, change the subject so and he was a friend to a lot of people in Las Vegas to he I know he had one friend who had a son that was kidnapped during those early years and he just dropped everything. And matter of fact, when Nick Civella was trying to get ahold of him, he couldn’t get ahold of him for a while because he was just sitting and dealing with this friend and representing the friend and helping him deal with the local police until they got his son by I don’t remember. I think the I think the kid was killed as one of these kidnappings for ransom kind of a kidnapping. So he was he had a lot of friends and he was loyal to his clients, if nothing else. He was definitely loyal to his clients.

40:04 He actually played himself in Casino in the gaming control board. He played himself

40:12 as a flamboyant character in the

40:14 Yeah, that’s right. He was actually in another movie. I think it was Rush Hour.

40:18 No rush er to oh he was in Russia or two. Folks will have to look at that rush hour or two. I’ve never seen that one. Of course I’ve seen him in in Casino. I’ve seen that movie two or three times, Tony Toke. I really appreciate you coming on and help me with lefty was lefty Well, Tony toke I really appreciate you coming on and helping me with Oscar Goodman. He’s one of the more flamboyant and maybe in some ways, certainly west of the Mississippi, the most well known mob lawyer in the United States and his I know his reputation reached back east and certainly up in Chicago. They all knew Oscar Goodman is

40:57 a very interesting character. Like I said before the gold standard from our boys, I guess.

41:02 Yeah, really gold standard mob lawyers as it gets. Alright, guys, you know, I like to ride motorcycles. So watch out for motorcycles. When you’re out there, you know, like and subscribe down below and give me a review if you want to. If you don’t want to. That’s okay, give me a bad review. I just want the attention even as bad attention. And if you have problem with PTSD, and you’ve been in the service, go to the VA website and get that hotline number if you have a problem with drugs or alcohol. Our friend Anthony ruggiano is involved in the treatment business down in Florida. And on his website, Anthony ruggiano.com, or Reformed gangsters, I believe is his YouTube page. He has his hotline number. So you need that guy to help get ahold of Anthony. So Tony Taourk from Down Under. I really appreciate you coming back on the show. And we look forward to doing another one. What do you want to do next time you want to do that Frank Ragano?

42:03 tossing up between Frank Ragano and Robert Simone of Philadelphia.

42:08 All right. All right. Well, we’ll be in touch. Thanks a lot.

42:13 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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