Today’s interview was originally recorded by the Australian podcaster Dan Palmer for an episode of his excellent, Making Permaculture Stronger. I’ve known Dan since before he started his show and as I recall it was at 1 or 2 AM on the East Coast of the United States when we connected over Skype several years ago to talk about his plans for starting a new podcast with a deep focus on the design process as it applies to permaculture, and what we can learn from experts within and without the community.https://www.thepermaculturepodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/AllanSavory.mp3

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As my focus over the years has been on the breadth of what it means to practice permaculture, and not the specifics of design, I shared with Dan my thoughts on how to develop an interview-style and choosing how much to prepare for those conversations ahead of time. How to find your narrative voice and make decisions early on that establish your on-air presentation.After a rather enjoyable chat that ended as I could stay awake no longer and he needed to head to his evening meal, I’ve continued to follow Dan’s show over the years and find my own inspiration in him taking on the vital subject of design. With this admiration, I jumped at the opportunity when he recently reached out to ask if I’d want to share an interview he’d recorded with the founder of Holistic Management.Needing little introduction, the Zimbabwean ecologist Allan Savory has spent decades developing and refining how we can manage complexity in the environment, on our farms, and in our lives. In a forward-thinking approach that walks us backward from the vision of how we want our world, land, or life to be, we can then look well beyond the moment and see where we want to go and how to get there.

This is, of course, a simplified explanation of a fascinating and deep system for managing a wide range of issues, but which has roots in fighting desertification and reversing climate change.You can find more about Allan and his work at Savory.globalDan’s website and podcast are at makingpermaculturestronger.net.You can read Dan’s original show notes at:https://makingpermaculturestronger.net/permaculture-holistic-management/Leaving this interview what Allan said about our ability to manage complexity stuck in my mind, and so I immediately picked up a copy of the audiobook of Holistic Management, Third Edition, A Commonsense Revolution to Restore Our Environment. What stood out both in the book and from this conversation is how Allan turns the language of complexity around so that we do not have to name what we face, but rather focus on the desired outcomes of our holistic context while allows us to quickly grasp what we need to do to achieve that end. Along the way we have checks to see whether or not what we’re doing is correct for reaching that long-term holistic context.Why this stood out to me was that in my graduate program years ago, we used to break complex situations down into two main categories: issues and problems. Issues were the overarching conditions leading to detrimental effects which cannot be directly addressed through a simple on the ground action or small policy change. Problems were individual pieces we could create a plan or policy around and thus change. The issues we found drove what problems we could solve, thus ameliorating the impacts of the larger issues. Work on enough problems, the theory went, and eventually you’d solve the issue.As I understand what Allan’s doing, Holistic Management takes all of that, wraps it up in one process, and allows us to continuously work on both the issues and problems in parallel. Though I know there’s much more to the method than my words here express, there exists a tangible power behind Holistic Management to achieve a beautiful, bountiful world where we’ve afforested the deserts and reversed climate change.

But, those are just my thoughts at the moment. What are yours?Leave a comment in the show notes, or send me an email: show@thepermaculturepodcast.comA few updates and announcements:One of those, as we approach the 10th anniversary of the podcast, is the annual Summer to Fall fundraiser.My goal for this fundraiser is two-fold. The first is to upgrade the computer where I edit the show. The second is to invest in some video equipment to record video interviews and site tours once the world recovers from COVID.To go along with the fundraiser, for anyone donating $50 or more (please include postage, international listeners), if you include your address in the notes for your donation, I’ll send you a USB drive with every currently available interview, monologue, and discussion from the first decade of The Permaculture Podcast. That includes the first show from 2010 all the way up to the 10th-anniversary episode out on October 10th of this year.If you’d like to donate you can do so online at paypal.me/permaculturepodcastOr by mail, to my new address:Scott Mann210 E. Fairfax St.#300Falls Church, VA 22046Also, I’m here to help you find the resources necessary to bring your vision of permaculture into the world. You can now schedule a one-on-one consultation with me, or a more casual, meandering conversation if you prefer, at calendly.com/permaculture.

Finally, there are more voices in the world doing amazing work than I could ever have the possibility to record an interview with, so if you’ve ever thought, “I’d love to hear an interview with a member of my community on The Permaculture Podcast,” now’s the opportunity. I’d like to teach you how to record a conversation and send it to me to share on the show. You don’t need to edit or produce the interview, I’ll take care of all that.I’m also particularly interested in stories recorded by women and young people and from Black, Indigenous, and People of Color communities.If you’re interested, let me know. Send an email to:show@thepermaculturepodcast.com with the subject, “My Community” and pitch me the story you’d like to share.

Until the next time, spend each day managing complexity, while taking care of Earth, your self, and each other.

The post Managing Complexity | Holistic Management with Allan Savory appeared first on The Permaculture Podcast.