For many people, terms like “piracy,” “stowaway,” and “kidnapped” conjure up romantic visions influenced by the literature of Robert Louis Stevenson or C.S. Forester. But as this episode’s guests tell us, these terms actually have deadly serious meanings without much romance and with a great deal of grim reality to them.

Doyle Hodges, executive editor of the Texas National Security Review, sits down with Ian Urbina, investigative reporter for the New York Times and author of, The Outlaw Ocean: Journeys Across the Last Untamed Frontier, and Martina Vandenberg, president of the Human Trafficking Legal Center, to discuss issues related to piracy, kidnapping, and stowaways on the high seas.