We've spoken a lot about hacking on this podcast, but Russia and America have the cyber capabilities to do much more than hack elections. In fact, around 30 to 40 countries are thought to have cyber weapons that are sophisticated enough to bring advanced, and highly wired, countries to their knees. What's worse, is that our ability to attack other countries with digital weapons is far better than our ability to defend against attacks. Matt spoke to David Sanger, the national security correspondent for the New York Times and host of Deep State Radio podcast. His new book is called The Perfect Weapon: War, Sabotage, and Fear in the Cyber Age. Want to get in touch? Email: russia@abc.net.au.