How do you make creative work that lasts? In today's show, Ryan Holiday explains how to write a Perennial Seller. We talk about positioning, changes in marketing and the book industry, how to make your body of work last, as well as balancing ego with serving the reader. In the introduction, I talk about my visit to San Francisco. Click here to see the pics on Flickr. Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, where you can get free ebook formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Get your free Author Marketing Guide at www.draft2digital.com/penn  Ryan Holiday is a best selling nonfiction author, media strategist, and book marketing expert who has worked with clients like Tim Ferriss, Tony Robbins, Google, and Penguin. His latest book is Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts. You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or watch the video here, read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and full transcript below. Show Notes * What is a perennial seller? * The ingredients that make a book relevant long-term * Balancing the ego with serving the reader * The importance of positioning a book correctly * Changes in the book industry around marketing * Ryan's thoughts on the future for authors You can find Ryan Holiday at RyanHoliday.net and on Twitter @RyanHoliday Transcript of Interview with Ryan Holiday Joanna: Hi, everyone. I'm Joanna Penn from thecreativepenn.com. And today, I'm back with Ryan Holiday. Hi, Ryan. Ryan: Hi. Thanks for having me again. Joanna: Oh, it's great to have you on the show. It was May 2014 when you last came on the show, so over three years. Ryan: Oh, wow. Joanna: I know. Ryan: That's crazy. Joanna: I know, it's really crazy. Ryan: I mean, look, I think when you have, as you would understand, when you have your head in a book that you're writing, time both goes incredibly slow and incredibly quickly. Joanna: Oh, yeah, absolutely. So, just in case people don't know you: Ryan is a best selling nonfiction author, media strategist, and book marketing expert who has worked with clients like Tim Ferriss, Tony Robbins, Google, and Penguin. His latest book, which I have here for those on the video is, “Perennial Seller: The Art of Making and Marketing Work that Lasts,” and fantastic book. So let's get into it, so let's start with definitions. What do you mean by “perennial seller”. Ryan: Well, so it's an industry term, right? If you if you call up the fine prints on The New York Times bestseller list, you'll find that perennial sellers are not included in the bestseller list. What they really mean by that are books that are more than a year old and that sell steadily without blowing the doors off. So, in publishing,