How can you build a creative, sustainable career as a ‘mid-list' indie author? How can you design a business that works for you and your books over the long term? T. Thorn Coyle explains more in this episode.

In the intro, BookVault bespoke printing options; Harper Collins partners with Eleven Labs for AI-narrated non-English audiobooks [Publishing Perspectives]; AI Publishing Formula Podcast; Brave New Bookshelf Podcast; “I’m not worried about AI, because I got my mojo working.” Stephen King;

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• What does it mean to be a mid-list author?
• How being weird can help you connect as more human
• Finding your sense of weird and letting it shine in your work
• Making marketing about connection and finding what works for you
• Marketing for Kickstarter in a short-term promotional window
• Tips for managing multiple Kickstarters per year
• Keeping readers engaged with your newsletter and social media
• Creating a tagline that portrays the message of your author business

You can find Thorn at ThornCoyle.com, and the Kickstarter for The Midlist Indie Author Mindset here.

Transcript of Interview with Thorn Coyle

Joanna: T. Thorn Coyle is the author of paranormal mystery, urban fantasy, alt history, epic fantasy, as well as nonfiction around magical practice. Their latest book is The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. So welcome back to the show, Thorn.

Thorn: Thanks so much. It's great to be back.

Joanna: Yes, I know. I had a look, and it's been six years since you were last on the show.

Thorn: That's a long time, especially in the indie publishing world.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, we're old school, which probably means we met like a decade ago!

Thorn: Yes, probably.

Joanna: Which is so funny. So let's assume people haven't listened to our episode from six years ago, and also, things have moved on.

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Thorn: Well, I was one of those people, you know, I've written since I was a tiny child, probably age five or six. I wrote poetry, I did journalism as a teenager, wrote for tattoo magazines in the 80s and 90s, and really wanted to write fiction.

I would practice writing fiction, and then I finally just gave up. I was the classic, I would labor over a short story for a year, and I would stall out three quarters into a novel.

I loved writing nonfiction also. That was easier for me, less of a challenge. So I got my first nonfiction major traditional publishing contract 20 years ago. I sold a book to Penguin, and I gave up fiction and focused on nonfiction, and traveling the world, and teaching for two decades.

Then fiction came back. Some characters showed up in my head one day, and I started writing fiction, and I started studying craft. Then I started seriously indie publishing, I decided I didn't want to go trad. My three first nonfiction books were all traditional published.

I didn't want to go traditional for fiction because I saw the struggles my friends were having with traditional publishing and my own struggles with traditional publishing. I started seriously indie publishing in 2017, and here we are today. I've got a big catalog now, and I just keep going.

Joanna: So what is a big catalog to you?

Thorn: I have probably, including short story collections, probably 30 books, which for me is a big catalog. I know for other people, that's a tiny catalog. It might even be more than 30 books now. I fail to keep track.

Joanna: I mean, it's also funny because you sounded slightly apologetic about 30 books, and I do this too. It's like, this is ridiculous because there are authors who write two books in their whole life!

Thorn: I know people like that. I certainly know a lot of traditional authors who only wrote a couple books. That's great, it's just a hard way to make a living.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So let's get into the book, so The Midlist Indie Author Mindset. I feel like this word “midlist” probably means more in the traditional publishing world. So why don't we start with that.

What is the ‘mid-list,' and why use that concept? What does it mean?

Thorn: The reason I latched on to the concept of midlist—and you're right, it does come from traditional publishing. So I'll give a little background.

In traditional publishing, especially in like the 70s, 80s, and 90s, midlist authors were the bread-and-butter authors. They were middle class. They weren't best sellers, but they put out books people enjoyed year after year after year. They were the backbone of a lot of publishing for a long time.

So the bestsellers financed the non-sellers, the poor sellers, but the midlist just kept going, writing books people enjoyed. That slowly faded away as traditional publishing changed. It became harder and harder to make a living as kind of a middle class, midlist author.

The other thing about midlist authors is they had a big catalog because they just kept publishing year after year, usually genre fiction of some sort or another. They built up a catalog that people enjoyed, that in traditional publishing is called a backlist. We still use that terminology, but it's not really accurate for indie publishing.

In traditional publishing, frontlist is a brand-new book that they push for three months, that's what that means. Backlist is everything else. So we can just call it our catalog because as indie authors, we can relaunch. We can do whatever we want with all those books. They're not going to go away.

So I wanted to bring forth this concept of midlist into the indie world because so many people say, well, if I'm not making multiple six figures or seven figures, I'm a failure.

I believe it's possible for a lot of people to find ways to make a decent middle class living as writers.

It's a lot more attainable and sustainable than some of the tactics and techniques people use to grow to be multi-six, like high six-figure or seven-figure authors. It can feel discouraging, I think, to a lot of people when we see these success stories and think, well, I may as well win the lottery or get struck by lightning. That's how unattainable it feels.

I realized in my own life, I had to curtail some of my ambitions because of life circumstances. I realized what I really wanted was a slow, sustainable build and a long, sustainable career. If I can do it, I think a lot of people can do it.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. The problem is the midlist is it's not a very sexy goal! It's not very catchy like, you know, six figure, seven figure.

As you say, it's more like the slow build, sustainable living, sustainable lifestyle, and things that actually give us a good life. Sometimes I feel like you have to be careful what you wish for. In the book, you talk a bit about your jet set lifestyle, you know, you used to travel a lot teaching. So what happened to that?

When did the romance disappear from that ‘jet set' lifestyle?

Thorn: So it was around 12 years ago that I really stopped wanting to travel all the time. I was traveling all over the world constantly, like, sometimes twice a month I was on an airplane.

It was wonderful. I met amazing people, I saw amazing places, and I was getting paid to do it. Unbeknownst to me, my undiagnosed chronic illness was getting worse, so that was starting to happen.

Also, I was just burning out. I was burning out on having to be this public figure, even though it was in a small sphere. I was burning out on the travel. I'll never forget, one time I came back from a trip, I crawled into bed, and said, “I'm done,” and I still had six months to a year's worth of trips booked.

So I just had to get through that time and then recalibrate and figure out what to do. That's when I did my major pivot. It also coincided when those characters showed up, and I started studying fiction again.

So yes, I burned out really badly, which I know a lot of people do and need to make career change. So I realized I still had those ambitions, and I took some of my ambitions into the indie writing sphere early on before I realized that was not going to be sustainable.

There were things people were doing that were all about the fast build. They were all about the spikes, you know, the huge income right away. I was trying to do that and failing, and I had to reassess and say, okay, what can I actually do? So I slowly figured it out for myself.

Joanna: Yes, and what do we want to do as well. It's interesting that the characters came back at the point at which you said you're kind of done with that life. So you opened up space in your mind for that.

I talked about this years ago when I made a decision to opt out of my career. I still had five more years of that IT consulting career, but I opted out of the career ladder. So I did what I needed to do to make the money and to do a good job for my boss, but I knew I was leaving.

That opened up the potential for what then came next. I feel like a lot of people don't realize that you almost need to make the space, like for you, for the characters to come back.

Thorn: Yes, and in the book, I talk about having a possibility mindset. That's what you're talking about.

Making space for what is possible, is really important.

It gets easy to just get on a hamster wheel and never just take a full breath and ponder, as you've said, what do I want? Not only what's right for me and what's sustainable or possible, but what does my heart want? What does my soul want? You know, what's interesting to me?

So I always try to invoke curiosity. I've invoked curiosity around writing fiction, but over the years, I've learned also to invoke curiosity about running a business.

That was my huge mindset shift.

When I decided to get curious about business instead of treating it like a loathsome, horrible task, it changed everything for me.

Joanna: Well, let's talk about that for a minute because I do remember having a conversation with you. I think we might even have talked about this on our last discussion on the show.

You're a strong activist, you have very strong principles, and money and capitalism were just things that you kind of hated. So you were pushing away money. Tell us how you got over that and how you reconciled this?

Thorn: I still don't like shareholder capitalism and the effects it has on the world, I can say that. For me, what I want to do is connect with people. That's always been my task as a creative. That's also my love as a business person.

So I need to run a sustainable business, and take interest in it, and figure out ways to engage with it in ways that are going to help me connect with people. That's all my business is.

I run a publishing company that's about connection.

So reframing that for myself, that it's not about who gets the most toys, it's about here's the world we live in, and what are my options for connecting with people and trying to make the world a more enjoyable, less horror-ridden place.

The other thing is, I'm always a proponent of culture change. One of the best ways to bring about culture change is capturing people's imaginations. So if I want to capture someone's imagination through my stories, I have to figure out a way to reach them with those stories, so I have to figure out how to run a business. So I think that's what helped me get curious.

Joanna: Yes, and I mean, to reach more readers, it's better to have a bigger engine in your business. I also remember you saying to me, “If I make a ton of money, I can always give it all away to causes that I care about.”

So that I think it's a really good reframe for people. It's to accept that if you make more money as an author, it's because you're selling more books, and you're reaching more people.

Thorn: Exactly, and people are excited about my books. People are excited about your books. People need fiction right now, and nonfiction too.

The world needs wonder. The world needs hope. If we can supply even a little bit of that for people, how awesome is that?

Joanna: Yes, and escapism as well. As we record this, I just binge watched the 3 Body Problem on Netflix, and I hadn't read the book. As soon as the series finished, I was like, right, I'm buying the book.

I learned today that The Three-Body Problem trilogy and Silent Spring, Rachel Carson's book, which they use in the series and is in his book, went to number one on Amazon because everyone's buying these books. I just thought that was brilliant, because again, it's such a resonant story at this time in history.

Like you say, these stories have power, and they connect minds. It's so powerful. I feel like sometimes we almost degrade writing fiction, like, oh, we should write something “more important” in inverted commas.

Thorn: That's also the great divide between high literary fiction and what we call genre fiction. We think, oh, my cozy paranormal mysteries are not important. Well, actually, my cozy paranormal mysteries are my best sellers because people need that escapism.

People need some comfort, you know. So why isn't comfort important? Why isn't enjoyment important?

I recently talked with author Meg Elison, and she really talks a lot about the importance of pleasure in life. I agree with her, we need pleasure. We need joy. Everything can't just be hard all the time because we won't make it through.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. For me, going to bed with a book is still a big pleasure. Sometimes I'm just so tired, and I go to bed in the afternoon, and I'll read fiction. Other times I'll read nonfiction. I read your book on the plane coming back from 20 Books Seville. It's a great book.

I do want to come back to one point in the book. You say, “My readers love my work because I'm weird.” I talk about doubling down on being human, but I think it is easier said than done, especially in this world where there's a lot of advice around chasing tropes, or writing to market, or any of this.

How can authors find their own particular kind of weird and have the confidence to let it out into their work?

Thorn: Well, first of all, what comes most naturally to you? That's the main thing.

We often make the mistake that what comes most naturally to us, and what we really love and feels easier for us, isn't important. We think it's too ordinary, but what's ordinary for us, is extraordinary for something else. It feels ordinary to us because it's just part of us.

When we allow that voice to come forward, people respond to it because they're like, “Oh, that's an authentic voice. You're not putting something on. You're actually connecting with me, and I'm connecting with these characters.”

So I'll give you an example. I had been writing my alt history and kind of more serious urban fantasy, and I was in the middle of writing my epic action-adventure trilogy, and I needed a break. I had got a concussion and a brain injury.

I started writing my cozy paranormal mysteries, which are just bonkers. I did a Kickstarter for them, and I was very nervous because I thought, wow, this is really different and people aren't going to like it.

People came out of the woodwork to back that Kickstarter. My first reader for the cozy mysteries said, “Well, you know, cozy readers tend to be more traditional. They're not going to be into the fact that you have bisexual characters and transgender characters and all this stuff.” I thought, you know what — 

I'm just going to market this as cozy mysteries for freaks and geeks, because I like cozy mysteries, and I'm weird.

Clearly, now I realize, oh, other people who are weird also want the comfort of cozy mysteries. They're not all traditional readers, you know.

So I was told very clearly, cozy readers are traditional. I said, I don't care, these are the books I want to write. Lo and behold, they found readers. It might take a little more time, which is why I talk about the slow build in the book. It might take more time, but you're going to find your readers.

Joanna: I do want to comment on this, because you're a super strong person, and you're very clear on your freaks and geeks side and your visual brand.

Let's just speak to the people who might not be that strong in their knowledge of what their weird is. So what about people who don't have that strong sense of “what is my weird?” How do we find that? How do we tap into that?

Thorn: Again, you mentioned earlier, making space. If we make space for ourselves and listen to our heart and what's most interesting to us, rather than listening to the clamoring voices trying to tell us what we should be doing, that's the first way through.

It's just to pause, go for a walk, meditate, ponder for a while, and think, what am I actually drawn to? Not what the marketers are telling me I should be drawn to. That's how to find ourselves and find our path forward, I think.

It just starts with listening and making space to listen.

Joanna: Yes, and it is really hard. I mean, the world is super noisy. You could just spend your time endlessly scrolling whichever social media it is, or doom reading the news, or whatever, and then your brain is full of all those things that it thinks that it should be interested in. So where do you find it? I mean, maybe it is in the books you read when nobody's watching?

Thorn: Yes, yes. I think that's brilliant. What are your so-called guilty pleasures? Then put all that in your writing.

Joanna: I mean, it's interesting, because I mentioned the 3 Body Problem again. So I say I don't read sci-fi, because I'm like, I'm not into aliens. Then watching the 3 Body Problem, I don't know why I didn't realize this before, it's not about the aliens. It's about the humans.

Thorn: It always is.

Joanna: It always is. The thing is, I really like reading horror. People are like, oh, why do you like horror? And I'm like, well, it's not about the monsters, it's about the humans. It's all just exactly the same, isn't it?

Thorn: We're all just trying to make sense of the world in our own way. It doesn't matter what genre it comes through. I think the joy of writing is we get to figure out the world. We either get to try to figure out the world we live in already, or we try to figure out what world we want to live in.

Joanna: Yes, and write that into whatever alt-world you're doing. It is interesting. Well, let's come to the marketing because you said in the book—

“I figured out how I market, not how other people market.”

That has a similar sense of finding your own path. So just talk about some of the things you tried but failed on, and what does work for you?

Thorn: Well, I'll go back to that word “connection.” Figuring out that for me marketing is about connection was helpful.

Actually, you helped me with this years ago. We were at some conference, and you said, “Oh, Thorn is great at content marketing.” I went, “I am?” I had no clue because I was just doing what I was doing. It was natural to me. Then I went, oh, okay, that's content marketing. I post what's interesting, it's still related to my world, and that's how I market.

The things that didn't work for me were early on. First of all, I didn't have a big enough catalog to do advertising for, but everyone said you have to do advertising. So I was taking the Amazon ads and Facebook ads classes, and they didn't work for me. Turns out all that advice at the time was really only useful for people in Kindle Unlimited, but they weren't telling me that.

The other thing that never worked for me were like, Facebook group takeovers, newsletter swaps, because I don't write the kind of urban fantasy these other people are writing. So doing a newsletter swap isn't going to really work because I don't know if your readers are going to really like my books.

Now, I eventually figured out that certain kinds of advertising works for that. Like if I did a free first in series and did the paid newsletters, I wasn't trying to target other people's readers, I was just targeting people who said, oh, we want urban fantasy, or we want cozy mystery.

I don't have to bring my entire catalog to these people. I'm bringing them one series. Then if they find the rest of my catalog, that's great.

The other thing that didn't work for me was that spike marketing. Trying to do promo stacking and get the big spikes and hitlist and all that, it was never going to work for me. That was all feeding the beast. Even for the writers that was working for, I don't think it was a long-term strategy.

So I had to figure out my long-term strategy, which was, how do I connect with my readers? Well, I do that through my newsletter. I do that through how I use social media. I do that now through things like Kickstarter.

So, over the last eight years, I've built up enough goodwill with my readers that they are so happy to share my stuff now. It also means when I do any paid advertising, I'm strategic about it, and it works. I'm not just throwing spaghetti at a wall.

Joanna: Interesting. You said the spike marketing hasn't worked for you, but Kickstarter is a short-term promotional window. So how are you doing that?

What kind of marketing are you doing within the three weeks this Kickstarter will run?

Thorn: That is a great point. So spike marketing for wide retailers didn't work for me. Spike marketing for direct sales does work for me. So I've built up all this goodwill through how I use my newsletter and how I connect on social media, so whenever I go to run a Kickstarter, people are like, “We are sharing your Kickstarter everywhere. We're so excited that you're doing this. We're backing you up just because we like your work.”

So I do market those, but I do it in the regular ways I do everything else. I use my social media platforms and send out notices in my newsletter. I don't do anything special for my Kickstarter. It all is organic for me.

Joanna: It just has a time limit. So you're basically just sending out some newsletters, and obviously, you've been doing some podcast interviews like this one.

Are you running any paid ads for your Kickstarter?

Have you found them useful?

Thorn: I spend like $20 on each campaign.

Joanna: That doesn't count!

Thorn: So I don't I don't do paid marketing. Some people do. I don't, and my Kickstarter campaigns all do really well.

Joanna: So how many Kickstarter campaigns have you done now?

Thorn: This one will be my ninth.

Joanna: Okay. So what's the kind of tempo? Because obviously we're talking here about the life that people want to live and designing your business around that.

What's the tempo of your Kickstarters in a year? How do you manage the different releases?

Thorn: I do three a year, and three years seems to work for me. I thought I was going to do four this year, and it was way too much. Partially because I ran a big-for-me Kickstarter campaign last year that brought in like twenty-five grand. Since I'm doing it all myself, it was big.

I had trouble with my printer, so it took a lot longer to fulfill than I wanted. So I'm like, okay, I need to take the fourth Kickstarter off my plate this year because everything just got backed up business-wise.

Three a year works for me because this is my full-time job. For people I know who it's their part-time job, they run one a year. It's a great way to make money for covers, pay for editors, and build a new audience.

This is the other thing I love about Kickstarter. About half of my backers come directly from Kickstarter, which is awesome. Then about half come from my world.

Joanna: Yes, from your audience. So when I do Spear of Destiny, it will be my first fiction Kickstarter. I've done two nonfiction. well memoir and then the writing nonfiction. I'm doing it under the same name.

This will be my first thriller, and I feel like I'm going to have to have really low expectations because I've spent the last 12 years training my fiction readers to buy eBooks on Amazon, basically. Do you feel like if you start with fiction, particularly where that's where a lot of our readers come from—

Does it take a while to retrain your readers to want other things?

Thorn: No, my readers love Kickstarter. I mean, some of them are confused by it, especially some of my older readers, and I have to do a minor amount of hand holding. But, no.

If I do a regular book launch on wide retailers, maybe a couple people will share it, maybe some people will buy it if I don't do actual advertising. My Kickstarters, people know it's time limited. It's an event, and they're excited to participate, so it spreads.

My readers do my marketing for me. Then the Kickstarter algorithm kicks in, and it does my marketing for me. It's actually much easier for me than launching something into the void on Amazon or Apple.

Joanna: I'm quite excited to see how it goes.

I do want to ask you, because you've mentioned your chronic illness, brain injury, and you talk about health issues in your book. When we do a Kickstarter, you've got the Kickstarter timing. What happens if then something happens in your health that you just can't do it? Or like you said, things get backed up?

How are you managing your health issues with the ups and downs of being an author?

Thorn: Well, it might seem strange to talk about health issues in a business book, but it felt important to me because everyone has something going on in their life. That is why I love this question.

I pad a lot of time into my fulfillment. I make this mistake all the time where I set out my year's goals when I'm feeling good, and then when I'm not feeling good, I have to deal with those goals, and I have to reassess them and pivot and rewrite my production schedule. I do it all the time.

Joanna: Yes, me too.

Thorn: With Kickstarter, I've learned to build in extra time for fulfillment. So if you think it's going to take two months to fulfill, tell people you'll fulfill in three to four months. If you think you're going to fulfill in four months, tell people you're going to fulfill in six months.

Just add in space, give yourself grace, and then if you fulfill early, that's awesome.

With the campaign I just finished fulfilling, I just told people, “Hey, here's what's happening with the printer. I'm having these issues. We're working on it.”

I just kept in communication, and people were very kind and happy just to be communicated with. So I was about a month behind in fulfillment, which is not the end of the world.

Joanna: Yes, these are books at the end of the day.

Thorn: Yes, seriously. So just communicate with people. First, build in extra space and time, build in a buffer. Then communicate clearly. People are very happy to be supportive. Most people want to be kind.

Joanna: Yes, I agree. So just coming back to your newsletter because you talked there about communication, and earlier you talked about it as the fundamental aspect of your marketing.

What do you do in your newsletter? What do you send out to people?

Because I feel like this is something that many authors struggle with.

Thorn: So, I used to barely use my newsletter. Coming out of traditional publishing, I never used a newsletter. I think that's changed now.

I send out a weekly missive about what I'm thinking about. I post a photo I take on one of my walks and just whatever thoughts I have. Then at the end of this 300-word missive, I do a line break and a small ad of, you know, “Here's my latest podcast I'm on,” or “Here's this book that is on sale or has just launched,” or “Here's my Kickstarter.”

So people come back week after week, and they know what they're going to get from me is just some thoughts from Thorn. Enough people like that, that some people actually pay me for it even though it's a free newsletter.

Joanna: That's on Substack?

Thorn: I was on Substack for three years. I just recently switched to Beehiiv.

Joanna: Because of the Nazis?!

Thorn: Yes, because of the Nazis. I mean, it's unfortunate that Substack decided to make those choices. I think Substack is still a better platform, but Beehiiv is getting there rapidly. So I have great hope.

So that's another thing I changed. I used to try to be on ConvertKit and do all the automated sequences that everyone said were best practices for newsletters. Those work for a lot of people—oh, segment your email list, do these sequences.

That marketing never worked for me, ever. So it made putting out my newsletter a chore. I said, I'm going to stop paying for this, I'm going to go to this free service, and I'm going to strip it down and say, here's what I'm doing. Every week, I'm going to send out thoughts with a tiny ad.

That was a huge shift for me. I started that just over three years ago, and people responded. People love the newsletter, people share the newsletter on social media, people reply, people send me long, thoughtful comments. So, again, it was figuring out how marketing worked for me.

Joanna: That's interesting, because I do have two newsletter lists. Actually, when you were talking there, I realized that's what I do on this show. My introduction includes the things I'm thinking about.

Many people are still listening to your interview, but some people did just come for the introduction. So that's actually exactly what you just said. You're doing it in writing, I'm doing it with talking.

Thorn: Yes, and I just let it be simple. It's like, okay, here's 300 words. I can write that in 15-20 minutes. Here's a photo. It works for me, and it works for my readers.

Joanna: It's just being human. It's a connection, like you said. I think this is the point we talked about earlier, everyone's quite smart these days around seeing through when things are a gimmick or they're not real. I still think that being human and the human connection is important.

So, let's come to social media. Again, I think we used to exchange things on Twitter when it was Twitter. A lot of people have moved on from some platforms.

I know you're a super ethical person, so what are you doing with social media now?

Thorn: Well, first of all, we just all have to figure it out. We live in this world, and I am not judging people who are on various platforms.

Losing Twitter was a great loss. Twitter was actually my favorite platform. I've tried to get off of Facebook ever since I've been on it, but people won't leave Facebook. Maybe they will eventually, but that has not been my experience.

Joanna: When we all die. When the old people die.

Thorn: Yes, when all the old people die. So, very simply, I only use my public Facebook page. I don't use my private page, except to track a few author groups. I do one post, same post, Facebook and Instagram, every morning. Usually it's a photo and a thought.

I'm on Mastodon, which strangely enough, Mastodon has no algorithm. It is my best place to get marketing traction because people know I'm showing up, making posts, even if it's just one simple post a day.

Then when I post something marketing-related, it gets shared. I get more shares on Mastodon than anywhere else, even though it has no algorithm. Then I'm on Bluesky, which frankly, is useless to me.

Joanna: I did try and get on Threads, and it went toxic so fast.

Thorn: Threads is horrific. The comments. I'm like, oh, my gosh, the comments on Threads are awful.

Joanna: It's like all the toxicity from Twitter ended up on Threads.

Thorn: Yes, it did. It did.

My social media strategy is very simple. I do one simple post a day. Then I try to remember to occasionally do a marketing post.

Then when I'm running a Kickstarter, though, I do a more marketing-related post pretty much every day during my Kickstarter.

Since I'm not doing that constantly, people seem supportive of it. They're not always getting bombarded by “buy my book” from me. So they're really happy to support when I'm running a Kickstarter. They're really happy to do things like share my newsletter when I post my newsletter on social media, things like that.

Joanna: Again, you bring in the things you care about, and sometimes that is about protests, or art, or tattoos, or gender issues. I mean, you do just share quite all over the place, I think.

Thorn: I do. I try to be uplifting as much as possible. If I'm posting about something difficult, I always try to have a call to action that people can actually do. I'm not just on there complaining.

My rule for public discourse is I try to be signal and not noise. There's too much noise out there. So what is my signal that I'm trying to put out to reach people?

Yes, my presence can feel all over the map, and I have felt that about myself. Like, you know, buy my books, but I'm also talking about magic, but here's a flower that I saw on my walk, then here is this social justice thing that's happening. But truly, that's all me, and that is all in my books, too.

Joanna: That's the point I was trying to make. I didn't mean you were all over the place. I meant— You talk about all the things that go into your books.

Like you are political, and your books are political. So if people don't want to do politics then, you know, they're not your person, but people who love your politics will love your books. So I think that's what I was trying to get at. You are very, I hate the word authentic, but you are pretty authentic.

Thorn: I can't not be, which is why I just had to figure it out for myself. What's interesting to me is at this point in the indie author world, I'm hearing this from a lot more people.

A lot of people right now are reassessing how they've been marketing, and what they've been writing, and what they want their careers to look like.

I think as a whole in the indie author world, we're taking a step back right now and saying, how do we want to move forward? For me, it always just had to be, be myself.

When I first started publishing fiction, everyone said you need to do it under a pen name because you're going to pollute your Amazon also-boughts. I'm like, I don't care. I have spent decades building up goodwill with people with my name. I'm just going to write fiction under this name.

Well, lo and behold, Amazon also-boughts quickly went away. The Amazon algorithm changes every six months to a year.

Joanna: I think it changes every week.

Thorn: Probably. So people have figured out, oh, we can't just chase the algorithm anymore. It doesn't work long term.

So, I came up with a tagline for my author business, and it's, “Magic is real, and justice is worth fighting for.” So people know that's what they're going to get from me, no matter what I'm writing or talking about. A sense of magic and a sense of justice.

Joanna: A lot of people want a tagline. I have tried, and I think I've even asked you about this before as well. I still don't have a tagline. So I mean—

Did it take you a long time to get to that tagline, or has it always been very clear for you?

Thorn: It took me a little while, but it didn't take me that long. I just, again, paused and assessed and said, what do I think my through line is? What are the strongest threads in my work? What are the strongest threads I want to put out in the world? That's where it came from.

So, for you, I think you're really interested in human emotion. I think you're obviously interested in the shadow. You're interested in what makes us tick.

I think that also includes your author stuff. Your author books, over time, I think have grown to include more and more of your interest in human psychology and philosophy.

Joanna: Maybe that's part of it. You know, we're talking as two people who've been doing this a while now, and I feel like that's another thing.

Also around your book and talking about the slow growth, look, some of this stuff takes time. None of this appears overnight. I get people sometimes that are trying to figure all this out, and they haven't even finished their first book yet.

Thorn: Yes. Yes.

Joanna: So patience, I guess.

Thorn: Patience, and patience is hard. Every new writer wants to be an overnight success. The thing I'll tell you is I've seen people who have been overnight successes and that puts a lot of pressure on the work.

I think it makes it harder to build a long-term career for most people. You know, you start thinking, what if my next book isn't as good? What if people don't like it? Instead of just giving yourself the freedom.

Frankly, no one knowing who you are is a huge boon to your creativity because you can do whatever you want and find your voice over time and slowly build an audience over time.

Kristine Kathryn Rusch says we build our career one reader at a time. I think doubling down on that is helpful. I don't have to reach 100,000 people or even 1000 people. I want to reach one person. That's where it starts.

Joanna: Absolutely. Now there are loads of great tips and things in the book. It's really meaty. It's got lots in it.

Tell people about the Kickstarter, where they can find it, and when it's running.

Thorn: So the Kickstarter launches April 16, and it will run through the first part of May. I will have some checklists for midlist mindset changes. I will have some coaching options for people who really want to say, “Hey, how do I shift my mindset around this stuff? I'm struggling with this area of my writer business.”

So it's not going to be coaching around like specifics on marketing, it's all going to be mindset coaching. Then of course, I'll have the eBooks and print books and maybe some other surprises.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where else can people find you online?

Thorn: ThornCoyle.com.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Thorn. That was great.

Thorn: Thanks again for having me back on the show.

The post The Midlist Indie Author With T. Thorn Coyle first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What can authors learn from the adoption of AI into the music industry? What are some of the ways musicians are making money in the fractured creator economy? Tristra Newyear Yeager gives her thoughts in this interview.

In the intro, Draft2Digital announced a retail distribution agreement with Fable [D2D]; Kobo launches a new color e-reader [Rakuten Kobo]; Ultimate guide to subscription models [Self-Publishing Advice]; Independence and interdependence [Self-Publishing Advice]; Becca Syme on getting unstuck [Ink in Your Veins].

Plus, Amazon's new AI board member, Andrew Ng [TechCrunch]; AI for Everyone free course; SEO is Dead [Marketing Against the Grain]; My episode on Generative AI Search for Book Discoverability; Yes, Colossal is real, and Spear of Destiny.

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This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors.

This show is also supported by my Patrons. Join my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn 

Tristra Newyear Yeager is the Chief Strategy Officer for Rock Paper Scissors, which provides PR for music innovators. She's also the author of historical fantasy and scientific romance, and the co-host of the Music Tectonics Podcast, which goes beneath the surface of music and technology.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• The current state of AI for musicians — is Suno the ChatGPT for musicians? [Rolling Stone]
• AI's effect on the stock music industry
• How authors and musicians can cut through the sea of content, whether human or AI-generated
• Using AI for discoverability (more in my episode on generative AI search for books here)
• The fragmenting of the creative economy [MusicX; Bandzoogle]
• Do fame and awards matter less as metrics get harder to track?
• Recommendations for selling author merchandise

You can find Tristra at NewyearMedia.com

Transcript of Interview with Tristra Newyear Yeager

Joanna: Tristra Newyear Yeager is the Chief Strategy Officer for Rock Paper Scissors, which provides PR for music innovators. She's also the author of historical fantasy and scientific romance, and the co-host of the Music Tectonics Podcast, which goes beneath the surface of music and technology. Welcome back to the show, Tristra.

Tristra: Oh, it's an absolute pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me back, Joanna.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show three years ago. It seems so long ago. It was in March 2021.

We actually started talking back then about the potential impact of AI in the music industry. So we're going to start there again today. We're going to start with AI, and things have obviously moved on.

You specialize in the music industry. Even in the last week, as we record this, I saw Rolling Stone wrote about suno.ai, the ChatGPT for music.

Let's start with the current state of AI for musicians in terms of the opportunities.

Let's do the positive ways at first.

Tristra: Yes, let's start on the positive. So Suno was a really interesting development, in that it was the first general generative-AI, something akin to ChatGPT or Claude, that could make really, really good, convincing tracks.

So no offense to all the other large models out there that can generate music from scratch. Usually, they were really short little sections of just like 45 seconds, and they tended to go off the rails pretty quickly. Suno was a little bit different and sounds a little bit better.

Now, if we're going to talk about generative AI for music, it's a little bit different, I would argue, than text because there's a lot of different layers to music production and music creation.

So for a long time, we've had AI that could generate melodies using the MIDI format. So that's not really like a full-fledged sound or melody you'd hear, but just like the signals that a synthesizer uses to generate a melody. We could generate lyrics, that's been around for a while.

Then one of the most commonly used aspects of AI is in mixing and mastering. So mastering is the final set of tasks we do to make a recorded piece of music sound polished and good. So to get the all the levels right, just add a little bit of extra spark and sort of finalizing of that track.

So AI mastering has been around for quite some time and has really taken off. People will use it almost at every stage of recording, in some instances, depending on what kind of music they're making.

So in a lot of ways, the stuff that gets the news headlines really recently, isn't the stuff that's really for musicians, I would argue. It's more for people who don't consider themselves musicians, or who struggle to make music, because they just don't have the technical background or the musical training.

That's what's really interesting, from our perspective in the music business, is —

Maybe we're looking at a future where we have a lot more people creating music.

Maybe numbering in the billions instead of the low millions. People who are making stuff for their own purposes, and it may not be the traditional commercial pipeline of recorded music of the past. It may not even be static recorded music.

So in terms of the existing AI models and what they can produce, most of us agree that the biggest threat, if we're going to talk about threats. So that's a positive side is the creative.

Let's talk about the threats for just a second because they are intertwined.

There is some concern about how are we going to manage this sea of content that, you know, we thought things were intense before, what's going to happen now if everyone starts wanting to upload their music to Spotify, or even to a SoundCloud, or other platform? How are we going to ever find stuff that's good?

Then there's also this question of a very specific niche in the music business that most of us hear all the time but we may not think about, and that is sync or production music. So that is the music you hear behind an image. AI really could completely upend that world.

If an advertiser, or video creator, or an author making a trailer for their book, decides they know exactly what kind of music they want, and they can type in something cool into something like Suno and get a little clip that's licensed and they know they're not going to get any copyright strikes or other legal complications from that, that really changes the game.

If it's way, way cheaper than even what exists now, like there are very inexpensive online libraries that have pretty decent music and a lot of different kinds of music, but it won't be as custom and it won't be as expensive, most likely, even at the sort of lower end of the that market. So that is an interesting place. Some people are very concerned about that and some people are really excited.

Joanna: Wow. Lots to come back on.

Tristra: Just an onslaught of AI news!

Joanna: I know, but I think this is good because there's a few things you bring out. So first of all, let's go straight for the stock music piece because we've seen the same thing.

Like I use, as someone who has obviously this podcast, I do an image that goes with this podcast that goes on to the YouTube audio and onto the blog. I use images in my newsletter, for example. I use images on social media for ads.

I used to pay for a stock photo service. In the last six months with Midjourney and with ChatGPT Plus — the paid version of both of those have commercial licenses — I stopped all my subscriptions to stock photos.

So what you're talking about there with stock music that might go behind—oh, so I did license a piece of music from AudioJungle for a book trailer. So what we're basically saying is it may be that with something like Suno or with some other tools that will arrive, or like other tools with video that are looking at generating audio with the video, that we wouldn't necessarily use something like AudioJungle.

One of the things you said there was that that is a revenue stream for some musicians. So does that kind of sum up that issue?

Tristra: Exactly, and so you'll start to see more and more integrations with platforms like Canva, where you'll have just, “Do you want to generate some music? Okay, what kind of music do you want?”

And just as we become a little bit more savvy about how to prompt image generation, I think more and more people will get a little bit more in tune with how to prompt to get the kind of sounds that they like.

It is kind of exciting as a music nerd. I want more people to enjoy the pleasures of music nerd-dom!

— and that could really bring everybody a little bit closer to like, why does sound affect me, what sounds affect me, what are the names that we give to different sounds or genres or moods? That's kind of an exciting moment for me, personally.

Joanna: Possibility. Yes, it's interesting.

I had a look at Suno. I don't know if I'm a complete weirdo, but I have very, very sensitive hearing. I spend most of my time listening to rain noise. Very occasionally, I'll listen to some music, mostly from the 90s, like if I'm working out or something, but I don't listen to music much at all. So I am totally hopeless.

So I went to Suno AI, and it's like, “Type some words about what type of music you want.” And I'm looking at it going, I literally don't know.

So I still think there's this big gap between someone like you who could prompt an AI in a very clear way knowing what they want, and someone like me who has absolutely no clue.

I do think that is a gap between those who know the language to create music and those who don't (just like with writing).

In fact, there was some research that shows that these models bring up the bottom level. So people who are terrible can become average, but these models right now, as we record this in March 2024, cannot be the best at any of these things.

Tristra: That's exactly right, and you're always going to hit the middle of the road with these models. That's just how tokenization and probability work, I think within the current way we create these things.

So there's always going to be a lot of room for extraordinary thoughts for really crazy upending of what we expect, and a lot of how our brain processes sound has to do with expectation. That's where the emotion kind of comes in.

So if we're talking about folks who don't create music, or really don't consider themselves musical, or don't engage with music very much, there's a big window to bring some people who might never think musically, so to speak, into the world of making music and playing with sound.

That can come through things like stem separation and making it really easy for people to mess around with sound, way easier than it is now.

Young folks, like if we're looking at how people use sound on TikTok, or at cloud-based digital audio workstations like BandLab that are super accessible, kids are making weird sounds all the time and messing around with music. They are pulling things apart, putting things together, chopping things up, speeding them up, and that's really, really super cool.

I think we're going to see rising tide of people making music, just the way we saw people playing around with things like filters and lighting when Instagram went mainstream.

So there's another side too, on the very top level of people making music.

AI can really function in a lot of complex ways that are really subtle.

So everyone's heard about voice cloning and things like fake Drake, or the Weeknd singing a song, or all these sort of very gimmicky, goofy things.

The way those models actually work is fascinating. It's more accurate to call them timbre transfer. So timbre is like these sort of frequency qualities. The weird little sonic moments that define what makes a sound sound like itself.

So if I hit a cardboard box, or if I hit a piece of wood, or if I hit a drum, those might all have the same duration, they might even have some similar frequencies, but they all have a different timbre. So it's like that quality to sound.

So the model basically lets you take the timbrel patterns of another person's voice and transfer it to something else. You could transfer it to an instrument, you could transfer it to all sorts of crazy other sounds as well. It doesn't just have to be another voice.

So the way you clone a voice is by making sure you have the same intonation. So if I used an Eminem voice model, and I didn't have Eminem's really distinctive intonation, it wouldn't really sound like him.

So there's kind of an interesting layer that's almost like a filter you put on a photo. Or like a font, like if you read a text in one font versus another, there's like this subtle little thing that changes in how you interpret and perceive that text.

So anyway, these timbre transfers are the kind of tools that people with more musical training or more musical inclination might be able to use to really change how things sound. It's much the way people have used effects, like reverb or flange, or how they've used synthesizers to create new and radically different sounds.

It's a lot of exciting stuff that is maybe a little bit more technical, a little bit deeper in the musical weeds, but is really, really cool. I think it will filter into mainstream audio creation as well.

Joanna: I love that attitude. I think this is the right attitude, which is —

This enables new kinds of creativity that we've never seen before and we'd never been able to do before.

I feel it's the same with the language models for writing. The way people who don't use these models assume that we're using it is “output a thriller.” You know, click one button, output an award-winning thriller. Okay, that just doesn't work.

Like you said about the musicians there, I feel like as someone who uses, at the moment, mainly Claude 3—again, we're recording this towards the end of March 2024, these models change all the time—but I'm using Claude 3.

I'm going backwards and forwards, I'm iterating with it, I'm playing with it, I'm putting my words in and changing them and getting something else out.

It's backwards and forwards, backwards and forwards, in terms of leveling up my writing.

It is, in fact, slower to co-create for me with these AI tools because I'm trying to be better and use them to make my work better.

It feels like that's what you were saying with those more advanced AI-assisted musicians.

Tristra: Absolutely, and if we think about it as a conversation, it starts to get really interesting.

The thing that everyone often overlooks with AI, like we're so wowed at the moment by, “wow, AI can really sound like a customer service representative, like this is amazing.”

What's really exciting to me is how bizarre the output can be from some of these models. So in my own writing, I wanted to play around with what it would sound like if an advanced artificial intelligence was having basically a freakout. It's like a really fun freakout.

So what I did was I fed a bunch of 19th century spiritualist texts, available on Google Books, I just fed a bunch of this stuff into an earlier model. The early models are still super weird and you can make them output really odd things, and it spit out this totally insane rant.

That's perfect. That's what I wanted. I edited it, I switched it around, there was work that I did as a writer after that. The fun thing was like I would never have been able to get this weird and unhinged on my own.

So that's maybe an extreme example, and I'm sure there are much more gentle and civilized examples than the one I just gave, but the weirdness and the emergent qualities are really where we, as artists, can thrive and explore. We have a whole bunch of uncharted territory to wander around in, and that's exciting.

Joanna: Yes, it is exciting. Let's come back to what you talked about, which was the potential challenge—exactly the same thing happening with authors—which is this sea of content.

You know, you thought it was bad before, it is going to get exponentially, let's say “worse” in inverted commas, in that there is a sea of crap.

I have two opinions on the sea of crap.

One is that sometimes, crap is fine.

Like, I'll have McDonald's burger now and then, as much as I want a really lovely meal at a nice restaurant. I definitely do not read Pulitzer Prize winning books every night, and I just watched the Road House movie with Jake Gyllenhaal. I mean, it is a fun junk food movie.

So the sea of crap, one is a lot of people don't mind that at all. Like we mentioned stock music, you don't need something amazing for your little book trailer.

The other one is that there's obviously just so much out there and it's hard to find the good stuff.

So what are your thoughts on this? Again, I mean, coming back to AI and using AI tools, I know you read my search article, or thinking about other marketing possibilities—

How do musicians and authors cut through this sea of content?

Tristra: I think it is going to be a real balance between the human and some of these cool tools that we can use to unlock things and see patterns that we wouldn't see otherwise.

In some ways, music and books are locked into this genre system right at the moment, like that's the language that we use to talk about things.

A lot of things that are not in the sort of sea of crap, or more templated, or just fun entertainment stuff, it's kind of hard to put them easily into one bucket. At least I can say that for music.

With really good music, artists really struggle to say, “Oh, I'm just making funk. That's all I make,” or “I'm just straight up like old school hip hop, that's all I do,” because it's usually not all someone does. So in that regard, using AI can help us find other similarities to other works.

So with music, it's a little bit weird when it comes to search because you can search using a bunch of different properties for an audio file. So you can look at the waveform and try to find other waveforms, so sound similarity search.

You can look at metadata, which is a whole huge can of worms.

If you ever want to make someone from the music industry cry, just talk about metadata.

Joanna: Same in the book industry!

Tristra: Exactly, but we don't want to make anyone cry here today. So some metadata, when metadata is good and it's doing what it's supposed to do, it can really help people find music.

Then there's things like user behavior. So the way a lot of recommendation algorithms are supposed to work is that you look at a user who is similar to you in some way, shape, or form, and maybe in their listening habits, for example. Then you look at what that listener is listening to that you aren't listening to.

Then the algo magically match makes and says, “Hey, your buddy who listens to like 80% of the same stuff as you really digs this, and you haven't checked this out yet. So you should check it out.” I think I've gotten a little bit far afield here.

All of these different AI channels could converge to help us market better, if only because we're trying to find audiences in new ways.

Not just like, okay, this is a romance or a cozy mystery, and I'm going to find all the cozy mystery writers, I'm going to do what all the cozy mysteries do.

It's like, well, maybe there's like a whole world about super intelligent cats, and there's like a super intelligent cat super fandom out there that you could discover if you had the right AI pilot.

In some ways, we might just leave genre behind.

That's starting to happen in music. I haven't seen as much reporting on this from books, but I'd love to hear your perspective, Joanna.

In music, young listeners basically listen to everything. They just listen across the board. So like 40 years ago, people were pretty siloed. They were like, I do rock, or I'm into hip hop, or I listen to classical music, and that's it.

Now it's like, young listeners, their Spotify or whatever is just filled with all sorts of different kinds of music, and in all sorts of languages, too. A lot of the music that is reaching young people now is not in English. So it could be K-pop, it could be J-pop from Japan, that's starting to percolate.

Of course, there's Latin music. Folks like Bad Bunny have really made a huge change. Now India is starting to come up on a lot of young people's radars as well. It's just fascinating. So anyway, all this to say this is not very helpful advice.

Joanna: Well, no, I think the point was that we're looking at AI tools for discoverability. So, for example, I have found a lot of stuff with ChatGPT. The example I give in one of my posts was looking for novels about stone carving.

When I used the traditional Amazon search, it came up with a whole load of nonfiction books on stone carving, and most of it was advertising and all this kind of thing.

Then using ChatGPT, it actually gave me a whole load of really interesting options. Then you can also, with the generative search models, you can then ask more nuanced questions. Like okay, well, I want this to be historical, for example, or I want this to be set in Europe as opposed to America.

There are ways you can make it more granular. So I suppose the same would be true about music, that you could say, well, these are the artists that I like, these are the songs I like, give me suggestions that are similar to this.

I mean, I guess what people are scared about, and this is already happening in the author industry, is ‘generate to market.'

In fact, I kind of saw this happening on ChatGPT the other day.

So I asked it for a whole load of books on creative business and money for authors because I'm going to update my Business for Authors book. It came up with this whole list of books, and I was like, oh, wow, I haven't heard of some of these, these are amazing.

About four of them existed, and six of them did not exist.

Tristra: Incredible. I love that.

Joanna: It was incredible because that hadn't happened before. When I did that article before Christmas, that didn't happen, like those books were real.

The crazy thing was, and I said to Jonathan, my husband, like, “Look at this. Look at these amazing book titles.” And he said, “Well, maybe you should write one of those.”

Tristra: There you go. I mean, if you did that well, that could be incredible. I think music, because it's a lighter lift in some respects, musicians don't get mad at me.

Joanna: As in it doesn't take so long?

Tristra: It doesn't take so long to create. Well, obviously you could work for years on a single song and polish it and refine it and revise it and everything. If you're working in like a song format, you're looking at like 3 to maybe 10 minutes of audio, and that can take a while to make.

Then with a book, if you're shooting for a 50,000- to 100,000-word piece of fiction that hangs together reasonably well, I would argue it might take a little bit longer. That's from someone who's both recorded music and written music and books.

You know, again, the creativity and the heart and the soul is equally demanding, but it doesn't take as long.

Music doesn't take as long to make, and it doesn't take long as long to enjoy.

So anyway, the book side makes me a little like, wow, you'd have to put some effort in, but it would be worth it. For the music side, you could really go nuts.

Joanna: I would kind of like to just feed in one of my books. Maybe I could do that. Maybe I feed in a one of my books into Claude, and I say, “Act like Ramin Djawadi.” The guy who did the Game of Thrones soundtrack.

Tristra: There you go.

Joanna: I'd be like, “Okay, do this for my book. Give me a prompt that I can put into Suno,” and then see how it is.

I mean, we're laughing because you and I are quite positive about this. There are people listening who were like, oh, dear. So let's move into the business model with this stuff.

Tristra: Can I just say one more quick thing on the fantastic fun side. This is something I think a lot of authors experience, not everyone, but we're kind of like minor synaesthete. Like we see what's happening before we write it, or sometimes we hear it, some people may smell it, I don't know.

This is giving us a chance in certain ways to unlock those sides of our imaginations.

We may not share that publicly, but if you had a soundtrack to Spear of Destiny, that might actually spark new creative directions for you that you hadn't unlocked before.

I think the multimedia side of things is really intriguing as all these different art forms converge.

It's something that is a little strange, but could end up being quite exciting from an imagination standpoint.

Joanna: Oh, yes. Well, I did this to Claude.

I uploaded a short story and said, “Can you plot out a book trailer,” and then I made the images in ChatGPT and DALL-E, and then got the music for it. So it was a kind of collaboration in that way.

Given that there are tools coming out, the kind of text-to-video models with music, probably by the end of 2024, you could feed in a book and say, “Create a 30-second trailer with music.”

Tristra: Exactly. Or, “What song would this person be singing?”

Joanna: Exactly. I mean, that's the fun side.

Coming back to the business, because I think, to me, there are some really interesting things. So you mentioned a bit about the voice synth thing. I think it was Grimes, who said, “Take my voice, create records, and give me half the money,” or whatever.

So I think licensing voices is going to be one model.

You wrote an article on the MUSIC x Substack and said the creative economy is fragmenting.

[Read Tristra's article here.]

I've used this term splintering. Maybe you could talk a bit about that. Like musicians are not just making money on Spotify streams. That is not the business model anymore, right?

Tristra:

There's no single business model. It's very similar to what's happened in the author world. There's been a whole DIY music movement.

There's been some really key players that have knocked down the doors where a lot of the back-office stuff that was happening.

It was very difficult for an individual to hook into things like certain kinds of royalty administration, that kind of thing. So those doors have come down.

Now, a person with the right mindset can pretty much manage an entire music career on their own, using available tools that aren't outrageously expensive.

So with that in mind, people are trying all sorts of different stuff. So there are folks that have built a whole career around live streaming.

Now there are folks that have built their whole career around various streaming platforms, and making music to playlists or to market. So there's a huge interest in Lo-fi and other sorts of study or focus-oriented sounds, and there are artists who satisfy that market.

So there's all these different directions you can go in, and really different ways to make money.

Some people only play live.

What the digital music world gave us was this insight into usage, but what's happening right now is that moment when most things could be seen online in some way, shape, or form, is fading.

So we have people who are selling LPs direct. We have people who have a subscription model that they use. We have musicians who are doing all sorts of really unusual things. It's hard to get a good handle on what all the business activity is.

So for example, there's some debate about how many indie record stores are actually giving their sales information to the folks that manage things like charts or sales. I know there's something similar happening with books.

Just no one knows how much people are selling, even in a store, which is like a well-established retail outlet that's been around for decades. Like they just don't report their sales data.

So we're seeing all sorts of different very niche models, as well as, of course, superstars and all sorts of stuff. It runs the gamut.

Joanna: Yes. Two things to follow up on that. So one, this invisible sales thing. I'm thinking a lot about this because —

My own revenue is now mostly invisible. Most of the money I make is invisible to any charts.

It comes from Shopify, it comes from Kickstarter, it comes from Patreon. Like you said, these are subscription, these are one-off, they don't report. I mean, Brandon Sanderson in the book world, $42 million Kickstarter, and that doesn't hit a list.

Tristra: At that point, like who cares, right?

Joanna: I mean, I guess so. I mean, there are authors who are Amazon-only sellers who never hit any list. The person who hits the top of the New York Times list is some traditionally published author who's sold a fraction of what some of the biggest indies are selling in other ways.

Like you said, at this point, who cares? I do wonder about this—

Are we kind of in a post-fame world?

Where there's like Taylor Swift and Beyonce, or whatever, and then there's everybody else. Like, do we care? Do we just get on with it?

Tristra: Yes, and is there going to be sort of an interesting market bifurcation or fragmentation, where there'll be people that are into stars and that are into celebrities. Then there's people who are just like, I like just to collect stuff that kind of suits me, and I don't care who made it as long as I like it.

I mean, in some ways that was what was obtained before the digital content revolution. I hate the word content, but I'm going to use it. You know, people would have their local record store and their local bookstore.

Then maybe there'd be like a weird, I don't know if every listener had this in their world, but when I was growing up, there was sort of these oddball little shops that would have mimeographed or photocopied zines.

Joanna: Yes, zines. I was going to say there were the zines.

Tristra: Exactly, and none of that really registered. So in some ways, we don't know how new this is. This could have been going on for hundreds of years, you know, thinking of broadsides and all the ephemera that was popular in the 19th century, for example.

The fact of the matter is, maybe we are in a post-fame thing, or maybe we've always been, and in some ways, we've gotten a little bit turned around in thinking that the loudest voices were the ones who were actually calling the shots. I don't know. It's an interesting moment.

So there's always a lot of talk about this musical middle class that's a little bit mythical because, again, the history isn't there. I don't think there's any reason to believe necessarily that the musical middle class right now is smaller than it was 40 years ago. It's just a different group of people.

It's not session players, like the kind of folks you might have heard backing up Steely Dan who are like these exquisite artists that just played sessions. It's not people who are selling CDs hand over fist. It's a very different group of people.

How big was that group 50 years ago? I mean, there's not a lot of great research on that. So I have this feeling it's not necessarily smaller, it's just certain people have lost ground. It is, of course, sad because they were making some good music. It's an interesting question.

Joanna: Yes, it is. I get what you mean, and it's kind of similar. I mean, you get to a point where you think, well —

I really just like making stuff. I need to make enough money that I can pay my bills, and I can keep creating stuff.

Once you get to that certain amount of revenue, which is the midlist in the indie author space, for example, do you really care about the other stuff? I mean, I don't really.

I mean, I have some particular goals, but they're not around fame. They are to have some recognition with my peers. I recently won an award for my memoir, and I was really happy with that. That's not going to sell any more books, but I feel happy to be recognized by peers in a certain way.

So I can imagine in the music industry, too, there's people who are doing their merch, and doing their vinyl press, and selling at an indie record store, or whatever, doing their Kickstarter, doing their Patreon, or whatever it is for music. It's like, that's a happy creative life.

Maybe that's just the positive thing about this new world is that—

We're moving away from obsession with streaming and top of the charts, and into a sort of more happy, creative life.

Tristra: It's less about broadcast or imitating old traditional media broadcast models. It's more about this kind of, I think you put it as an artisan approach.

I pulled up some statistics before we started talking. There's a website builder called Bandzoogle, which I don't know if there's an exact equivalent in the book world. Basically, it's a bunch of templates and tools and cool things that some indie artist-minded folks have created for musicians.

They just announced that Bandzoogle helped musicians earn $16.4 million in 2023. Most of that came from direct merch sales or direct ticket sales. That's pretty interesting.

So subscriptions aren't a huge thing for musicians because for a lot of musicians, that's not really a model that's going to work for the way they make stuff. So I thought that was pretty notable.

Bandzoogle doesn't charge a commission. So that's money that's going straight into creative people's pockets. I thought that was pretty cool.

Joanna: So, I just pulled that up. So Bandzoogle, they build websites, make website management and have tour dates. So it's websites and selling direct and merch and things through their site. That looks fantastic.

Just on merch, then. This is something that musicians have always done, and have done very, very well selling merch at live events and this stuff. At author events, people will more likely where band t-shirts than they'll wear author t-shirts. It's just not the thing to do.

Tristra: I'm just trying to imagine like, you know, my Melville t-shirt.

Joanna: I mean it really is a cultural thing for bands to do this. It'd be great if authors did this too. Do you have some sites that you would recommend?

If authors do want to do merch, what are some of the best sites you know of that they might have a look at?

Tristra: I have been thinking about this myself for merch. One thing that I have been thinking a lot about is t-shirts and sizes and how hard it is to do. I guess you can do print on demand, but the margin seems a little bit so-so.

If you're a band, you'll probably print a small run or a big run of different sizes and styles and things. So I've been thinking a lot about that, like what are some alternatives to t-shirts?

There's been some crazy variety of things that people have done in music. I would say if you want to look for some inspiration, look at places like Bandcamp. So if you have a favorite genre or artist, see if they're on Bandcamp and see what they're selling. Sometimes music artists will sell really neat things that are pretty simple.

So you probably don't want to go to the trouble of putting out a vinyl LP. There's ways you can make cassettes nowadays. They have all sorts of fun stickers. I've seen bandanas. There are things like drink koozies, if that's your thing.

I don't know, if I was setting one of my books, like maybe a thriller in the Florida Keys, like a koozie sounds like a good piece of merch.

Joanna: It's like a beer sleeve for your craft beer?

Tristra: Exactly, exactly. So your seltzer water.

Joanna: Your hard seltzer!

Tristra: Exactly, there you go. For authors, it may indeed have to be a hard seltzer. I'm being silly.

There's enamel pins. There's all sorts of really fun little things that you can look at. I'm all for getting inspiration from other people, and for thinking about like what is an object that's easy to mail that's not too fragile, that is relatively small, and that's something that someone would buy in enjoy.

Something where the design can really shine. Like an enamel pin or a sticker would be a great example. Those are things that are pretty easy to manufacture.

I mean, I have to say my favorite thing, Joanna, and I'm going to give a little shout out, I love Sticker Mule here in the US. If you sign up with them, they will send out these deals, these like random deals. They have the best marketing emails that are just like, “50 stickers. $10 today.” I'm like, I love you.

Joanna: It's funny, I do actually make my own stickers for my own journals. I have thought about doing stickers.

So let's talk about selling direct, because as you mentioned, the biggest thing is that I refuse to, as part of my business plan, I am not having stuff in my house, and I am not going to the post office.

So everything I do with my Shopify stores, it has to be print on demand, and it has to be shipped. I don't want it anywhere near me, it needs to go from the vendor.

You're also doing selling direct, aren't you? You're also doing live events, I saw on your website, like things like book shops and creative spaces and all of this. To me, it just seems like a lot of work.

Tell us about your ecosystem around selling direct?

Tristra: Absolutely. You know, you've got a lot of plates spinning, Joanna. So there's some reasons why you might want to draw those really firm boundaries. I love that, and I think it's really important to know that about yourself as a creative person.

Like if I do all this stuff, is it going to completely destroy me as a writer?

Meaning I'm not going to have any energy or interest in sitting down and being like, okay, so what is happening with these radioactive mice that are putting together an orchestra?

If you can't go and play with your imaginary friends, you can't pursue that particular thing. So in my case, I'm a baby author, and I'm not going to hide that. So what I mean by that is that most of the people I'm going to be selling to are people I know, or people who know people I know, et cetera.

Most of the stuff I've been writing lately has had a very strong regional or local flavor to it.

So it's based in Indiana, it's based on the history of Indiana, it is a crazy, weird story based on the history of Indiana. So it's got a very specific audience.

I kind of wanted to have enough physical copies around to be generous with them. That is what my life allows. That's not what everyone's life allows. So for me, it made sense to print up a bunch of books and just have them there.

Again, I have the space for it, and I have the means to advance myself that. So that's not the right decision for everyone. It's a certain kind of privilege.

At the same token, I've been able to be really generous with my books, meaning like if I want to give it to someone, I can. That means a lot to me. It's less of a business decision and more of just a human decision for me.

However, I do really enjoy local events. I don't always call myself an introvert, I do find it difficult to associate with people for long periods of time.

I find it really helpful for me to focus on ideas, instead of my persona as an author, or my own work even.

So I often want to go and talk to people about the ideas or phenomena that inspired my book. So it could be artificial intelligence. It could be human utopias. It could be the history of frontier settlements in places like the US.

So I'll tailor what I want to talk about to each locale, judging by who their likely audience is. So for me, that's worked really well because it keeps the focus off of me, which is very uncomfortable for me. I'm a Midwesterner, we just don't do that.

It also allows me to bring people into this world that was why I started doing this in the first place, and really share it from a different perspective.

So instead of the story and the little universe I generate for them in the book, we get to talk about the actual facts, historical sources, actions and events, and people who inspired some of my writing. So that's really fun for me.

I would advise people to set themselves up for success. So try to know yourself.

Start in your home turf, start in a friendly location where you feel comfortable.

Maybe even consider inviting someone along and setting it up as a fireside chat, instead of just a you-show, which can feel really uncomfortable at first.

Also try to build the support around it that you need. So maybe schedule some time alone afterwards, or schedule some time with friends, or make sure that you have a little bit of promotional and marketing machinery in place.

It can be really simple. It could just be on socials, it could be reaching out to local media, but don't leave yourself high and dry and just expect the store to do all the work.

Then for me, maybe I'm an indie author because I like to control things, and I like to know things are getting done. I don't want to be angry with someone because something didn't get done, unless it's me, and then I can be angry at myself.

So if you're going into an event, if you've decided to try this, I would say set yourself up for maximum success and know thyself. Try to make it sound as appealing as possible, and if there's no way it sounds appealing, don't do it.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. I flirt with this idea a lot, and I do some speaking, but this is just not for me.

I do think, like as we talked about, if you're being more analogue with your products, then sometimes if you have the weird stuff, if you want to do the vinyl, or the cassette tapes, or the different types of books, it may be that this is something that really works for you.

Especially as you are, if you're embedded in the community, if it's about the local area, I think there's a lot of opportunity there.

Perhaps, as you said, this business model that's emerged in the digital space, people have thought more about the global digital side than they have around the local physical side. So interesting times ahead, I guess.

Tristra: Absolutely, and just one more little thought about that is you can think about the global digital side, and I think a lot of people are finding success there, or it makes sense to them.

For me, I had to think in concentric circles. I had to think about, where's my home base, and how do I expand out from there gradually and organically?

It's really frustrating because I want things to move faster than they do, but that's a growth opportunity too, is to learn to be a little more patient.

Joanna: Indeed.

Where can people find you and everything you do online?

Tristra: Well, if you want to find out more about my music, tech nerdery, and musings, you can check out the Music Tectonics Podcast, and that's tectonics like the geological phenomenon.

You can also hit me up on LinkedIn. I know that's really dorky to say that, but that's where I do a lot of musings and post a lot of articles and stuff like that.

If you want to find out about my fiction, I'm at NewyearMedia.com. I've got a podcast coming out in June about an American intense feminist from the 1820s. You can find out about my novels.

You can also hit me up on Instagram, Facebook, you know, all those silly places where I mostly post things about barns. You know, trees, dark foreboding roads, that kind of fun stuff. So it's more of an art project.

Joanna: Well, thanks so much for your time, Tristra. That was great.

Tristra: Thank you, Joanna. It's great to be here.

The post Generative AI Impact On Creativity And Business In the Music Industry With Tristra Newyear Yeager first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you overcome your fears and make a life change towards your dreams? Or tackle the fears that stop you from writing and publishing your book? Rachael Herron talks about creating despite the fear, and getting unstuck in this interview.

In the intro, Blackberry movie and IP questions; The Copyright Handbook by Steven Fishman; Co-Intelligence: Living and Working With AI by Ethan Mollick; London Screenwriters Festival; Lessons from my screenwriting course (2018); Catacomb on my store, and on other stores; Spear of Destiny Kickstarter.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

You can also Join my community and support the show at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn.

Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, feminist romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She's the host of the Ink in Your Veins podcast, and her latest book is Unstuck: An Audacious Hunt for Home and Happiness.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Tackling fear of the unknown when leaving your job, or making a big life change, or becoming a full-time author, based on Eight lessons learned from eight years as a full-time author.
• Overcoming the fear of the unknown when writing a book and you don't know the outcome
• The writing process when writing memoir vs. fiction
• Fear of judgement when writing memoir
• Writing as flawed and real humans that readers can relate to
• Analogue physical IRL experiences in the digital age
• Different fears that come with launching a Kickstarter

You can find Rachael at RachaelHerron.com and her Kickstarter at RachaelHerron.com/Unstuck

Transcript of Interview with Rachael Herron

Joanna: Rachael Herron is the internationally bestselling author of more than two dozen books, including thrillers, feminist romance, memoir, and nonfiction about writing. She's the host of the Ink in Your Veins podcast. And her latest book is Unstuck: An Audacious Hunt for Home and Happiness. Welcome back to the show, Rachael.

Rachael: I am so thrilled to be here with you, Joanna. Thank you for having me.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you today. Now, you were last on the show in July 2023, not that long ago, talking about publishing options. So we're going to jump straight into the topic today. I wanted to talk to you partly because—

You just did an episode on your podcast about eight lessons learned from eight years as a full-time author.

Can you believe it's gone so fast?

Rachael: No, I cannot. It's literally the blink of an eye. You know.

Joanna: I think that is something maybe we'll circle back on, like how fast it comes. One of the things I really noticed as I listened to that episode was how relaxed you seemed in your writing life. You talk about leaping before the net appears, but this is super hard for people. So I want you to start with this fear of the unknown.

How did you overcome your fear of the unknown? Both when you left your job and before you write each book?

Rachael: I love this question, thank you. Fear is something that is ever present for me. I do suffer a little bit of anxiety. I am not a cool and calm kind of person. I tend toward the worrying spectrum.

I have learned over the years that the best things I do are when I do this leap, when I do this jump into the unknown. It is always scary.

So we started writing about the same time. I think I started writing seriously about 2006, and then I sold my first book in 2008, and then I was able to leave my day job in 2016. So for 10 years, I wrote and I worked my day job, night job. I worked for 911 for the fire department.

It got to a point where I desperately wanted to leave my job and write full time. But I was making six figures as a 911 dispatcher, and I was only making about $30,000 as a writer per year. So it was a huge pay cut.

So what we had to do was pay off all the debt, which we did over the course of those 10 years. Then I was able to make the leap.

I have never been more sick about anything. I remember going into my manager's office, and she hadn't seen it coming because it wasn't worth talking about before then, and I told her that I quit. She was shocked, and she offered to keep me on as a consultant, like so she could pull me in for overtime kind of thing. I said yes, because I was so scared.

So really, I quit, but I didn't quit. I honestly had this backup thing. I think I only worked one or two overtime shifts, and they just stressed me out so much that I didn't do them anymore, but I was terrified that we would end up living under a bridge, I would make no money, and we would lose the house.

In that case, I had to cheat. Then my mother-in-law got sick, and if I quit, I could be with her. I could spend more time with her.

Shortly after I quit, I mentioned this on the show, my wife lost her job. I am not sure that if I had still been working my job, and she had lost her job, would I have had the bravery to quit? Or would I have been scared, and I would still be a 911 dispatcher? I don't know.

One of the things that I think about with fear, and I deal with this whenever I'm facing something big, including being scared to write a new book, or being scared to get the book right, is that I do know that leaping into the unknown is always scary.

I feel like I used to think that if I were braver, if I had more courage, then it wouldn't feel that scary. In my case, and I think in the case of many people, it's we don't overcome fear. We don't just talk our way out of it and then feel better about it—

We just learn to live with the fear.

It's okay that it's there. I appreciate fear.

I sometimes think of fear as this entity, this part of me, like fearful Rachael. Fearful Rachael does a really great job and I appreciate her. She is the one that keeps me from eating expired meat, and stepping in front of buses, and taking off my clothes in inappropriate places.

You know, fearful Rachael pays the bills, she makes sure the lights stay on, she makes sure that I work hard enough to bring in X, Y, and Z, but she doesn't get to drive everything.

She gets to have a say in some things, and she's not always right. So I like to thank that little fear, or the big fear, for keeping me safe.

Then a couple of things that I've done in the past to combat fear is I've had a dedicated worry time and a worry journal that I can only write in at a certain time. Like 7:15pm is when I go into my office and I write for 10 minutes about what I'm scared of. When I've been in times of my life where I wake up at two in the morning, and I can't sleep because of fear, I do that.

Then, specifically, so as you know, we took this big jump, and we moved from the United States to New Zealand almost three years ago. It's truly the scariest thing I've ever done in my life. I was so scared.

Tim Ferriss, you know who he is, he has a podcast.

He was talking about his fear setting exercise. Have you ever heard of this?

Joanna: I have, but explain it to people.

Rachael: So he does this fear setting exercise where for the big things, he sits down with a notebook, and he writes about the things that scare him.

Specifically, I have this right in front of me, you ask yourself, “What if I, blank?” What if I leave everyone I know and love, all my family and all my friends behind, and moved to New Zealand?

So you write down the what if, and then you write down every single fear that scares you the most. That's in one column, and then in another column, you write down the prevention for that fear. Then if it happens, in the third column, you write down how to repair it.

I did this when we were moving to New Zealand, and I just learned that there were some things that I couldn't fix. Like, one of my biggest fears was that someone I loved would get sick or hurt and I wouldn't be able to get back to the States in time to say goodbye to them.

I remember sitting with this piece of paper and thinking, how do I prevent this? Okay, there's got to be a way because Tim Ferriss said there will be a way, and there wasn't. What I put in that column was that I will always have enough money in the bank to get the first flight out to get to the States.

Then under repair, there is no repair, but I can also stay in very close contact with the ones that I love.

I am looking at the page here, I had 22 massive fears. From like, what if we get a divorce? What if we get sick and have no friends? I filled out the prevention and the repair columns, and it made me feel so much better to have kind of externalized all those worries.

Then the last thing I'll say about fear is that he says, you ask yourself, what might be the benefits of an attempt, or partial success? Then you rate that one to ten. And what's the cost if I don't do this thing that I'm scared of? Then you rate that one to ten.

For moving to New Zealand, the benefits were huge. We would see more of the world, we would travel, the choices are endless, and that got a 10. The cost of inaction, staying in Oakland with a mortgage we couldn't pay off before we retire, not having good healthcare in the United States, that got a two or three. So, let's go.

Actually, I know that for writers sometimes putting that kind of thing on paper can help a lot.

Joanna: It's interesting. You're right, we did start around the same time, 2006. That was when The 4-Hour Workweek came out, and I was pretty sure that is in that book.

Rachael: Oh, I bet it is. I know it from a TED talk that he did on it.

Joanna: I think it's in that book because I remember it's the, what if I'm homeless, and I'm living in a caravan by the stream, or something like that? Or tent by this by stream? What if I lose everything?

I think everything you said there is really amazing. I do want to just talk about the fear of unknown with a book. So although both you and I have moved around the world to change our lives and quit jobs, a lot of people have this fear of unknown around a book.

When we sit down to write a book, whether it's the first book, or even like you and I right now and this new book, Unstuck, and what you're doing with this book, we don't know the outcome. We don't know whether anyone's going to like it.

If you want to sell to traditional publishing, you don't know if you'll get a deal. If you do, maybe it will flop. I mean, there's a whole load of fear of the unknown around writing a book.

Can we even finish the book? How do we do everything? I feel like a lot of the fear for authors, and I'm sure you get all these emails as well, people are obsessed with, “Oh, well, how do I publish properly? How do I market?” When they haven't even finished a first draft a lot of the time.

I think that's trying to control the fear of the unknown.

Can you just talk about this fear of the unknown with writing a book?

How can we trust that something will emerge in that way?

Rachael: Yes. That's so real. It's hard to have that trust that something will emerge when you haven't gone through the thing before. After you have a few books under your belt, you trust that you will get there. In those first few books, I understand how scary that is.

I love what Becca Syme—I loved hearing her on your show pretty recently—but I love that she always says most of us want more clarity than we can ever have. So again, it's getting more comfortable with this discomfort in making these huge decisions.

You're right, it is fear that makes us ask, is this marketable? Will people buy this? Will people get mad at me for writing this? That's all fear.

So what I like to remember when I am scared to move in the direction of a book is that there is no right or wrong. That sounds so easy and light, but there really truly is no right or wrong. What we have to do is make a decision.

For a lot of us who are over thinkers, shall we put it, we could think forever. We could think forever.

My brain loves thinking so much that I will ask it to think, and it will say, “Great, I'm going to think for a while.” Then it'll give me a great answer, it'll give me a, “100%, we're going to go this way. We're going to write paranormal women's fiction next.” Perfect.

Then about 18 hours later, my stupid soul will ask my brain, “Hey, do you want to think about that again?”

My brain will say, “Yes, I would love to think about it again.” The thing about our brains is that they're so beautiful and so strong, that not only will they think about it all over again, but they will come up with a different, better-for-now answer. They will do that for the next 10 years, and you won't write your book.

So for me, I have to kind of put a time box around a decision window. First I have to notice I'm doing it, but when I notice I'm waffling, I will say, okay, on Monday—I literally do this—on Monday afternoon from 4pm till 4:15, I'm going to sit down with my journal, and I'm going to make a decision on the thing I can't decide about. After 4:15, I cannot change my mind.

The beautiful thing about this is that there's no right or wrong, but we can make the decision that we make right. So somebody said this, and I can't remember who, but don't make the right decision, make the decision right.

So it almost doesn't matter what book I choose to write at 4:15 because I've made the decision, and now I'm moving forward. Now I have a direction.

Then I can give fear a different job. Will I be able to pull this off? Will I get a good plot? How am I going to dial in the characters the way I want? Fear can do something else, but fear doesn't get to keep worrying about should it be a six book series or a nine book series? No, it just needs to be a book first.

So I make a time box around the window for decision making time, and—

Then I just move forward being comfortable with that discomfort.

Another thing I just want to say really quickly about fear as we're talking about it. We can talk about this, and it's fantastic.

I will also say that if fear is a generalized anxiety disorder or a trauma response that you need help with, it's great to do all these things that you and I are talking about, to journal and talk to friends and whatever it is that helps, but also, it's really great to go to a therapist and work through the things that you may need bigger help with in order to get unstuck.

Joanna: Yes, for sure, but we're going to assume that this is different. This isn't specifically about the trauma side.

I mean, I think moving forward is really important. I feel like the circling and circling and circling and not moving forward is the struggle sometimes. I know that's hard for people.

As you say, I mean, you take an action. I mean, I've talked before about skiing down a hill. I don't do much skiing anymore.

You want to go down the hill, but you don't just go in a straight line. You head off in one direction, and then you zigzag back in the other direction. Then maybe you fall over and then you zigzag back the other way. There is no straight path get to what you want to do.

Rachael: The one thing you have done is you've decided which side of the mountain you're going to go down. You're not going up the mountain, when you are skiing down and zigzagging, you're still going towards that end goal.

Joanna: Yes, you've chosen the direction.

Rachael: Yes, I love that analogy. That's perfect.

Joanna: So let's come back to this. So obviously, you journal a lot, you write a lot, but I think you do have a gift for writing memoir. Obviously, you've spent a lot of time writing this stuff, so you've had deliberate practice. You weren't born with it, necessarily.

You are able to write in a real emotionally honest way regularly. I'm part of your Patreon and you send out essays. You recently wrote about building this Adirondack chair, which I thought was lovely. I wondered about your process. So you've mentioned journaling, but—

What is your process for writing personal essays and memoir?

Which you often collect and put into books. How does that differ from your fiction?

Rachael: I love that this whole conversation is really about fear. When we're talking about writing personal narrative of any sort, whether it's an entire memoir like you have done, or even just a personal essay that you're going to put somewhere in the world, there's just this huge level of fear.

That's because when we are writers and we put out any kind of writing, we know that we're putting our soul on display, but it's especially so when we're talking about our real selves.

So first, the number one thing I do when I'm writing a first draft is—I'm quite gullible—I tell myself that no one will ever see it, and I kind of make myself believe it.

Even though now I've done it long enough that I'm like, yes, Rachael, you're going to polish this and put it out somewhere. I do tell myself that it will never escape my computer. Or if you're writing in a journal, it'll never escape the journal.

I make myself tell the truest draft. That's really, really hard because it's a natural state of affairs to want to present ourselves in a good light. Like right now when I'm talking to you, and I know how many people listen to your show, I'm trying not to stutter or mispronounce words because I'm trying to appear semi-cool.

It's hard when you're writing narrative nonfiction to actually put yourself out there, warts and all, with all of our flaws, all of our true flaws. So that's why in that first draft, I try to tell the truest, the darkest, the hardest parts, the places where I suck the most.

I always encourage people if they're doing this, every computer you can password protect even just a document. You can leave your whole computer open for your kids, or your husband, or whoever, but you can password protect that one document, so that you know that nobody could ever see it.

If you were, God forbid, hit by a truck, no one's ever going to find it. So do that in a first draft if this is something that makes you fearful.

Then here's the tip you would expect me to say, “and then you revise it, and you make it into what you want it to be.”

But instead, especially people who are new to this and it's personal memoir, when you go back to reread whatever it is that you wrote, a thing that can be super useful is to —

Circle or highlight the two or three sentences that make you cringe the most, that make you feel the most uncomfortable.

Then instead of deleting those, because that's the obvious thing you want to do, you highlight them.

You go back and ask yourself, why am I uncomfortable? Are they so true that it is making me squirm? Or are they a little bit untrue, and I actually need to be more truthful?

The thing that we have to remember is that readers don't ever judge us for being flawed and human.

They judge us for not being that way. If we talk about our damage, our wounds, and we talk about the stupid things we do because we're just humans, readers lean in and they empathize and they cheer for us. They want to be there for us.

Joanna: That is such a great tip. I love that. That is so valuable that you go through your draft and you circle the things that are like almost too much.

Actually Neil Gaiman has a quote, doesn't he? Something like when you feel like you're walking down the road naked, or something, that you're getting to the heart of it. That's basically what you're saying.

[Note from Jo: This is the quote]

“The moment that you feel, just possibly, you are walking down the street naked, exposing too much of your heart and your mind, and what exists on the inside, showing too much of yourself…That is the moment, you might be starting to get it right.” ― Neil Gaiman

It's like if I put this sentence into the world—and this is fear of judgment, which I definitely struggle with—what are people going to think of me?

Yes, people may think something of you, but as you said, generally they're going to feel themselves. They're going to feel seen, they're going to be like, oh, my goodness, that happened to me, or I understand how that feels.

That's why they resonate with your work. That's why memoir is so powerful. So I love that tip. I wonder, then—

With your fiction, do you take these emotional core and build from that? Or do these things emerge in your fiction as well?

Rachael: I think that they emerge naturally. I think that as a writer, and this probably varies from person to person, but I think I'm just braver with giving my characters big and real flaws because I do know that I'm making them up.

If anyone said, “Hey, Rachael, is that you on the page?” I could say, “No, I made that up. I'm better than that,” even though it's not true.

It is still the same thing, that when I write the thing that makes me uncomfortable, when a character says something that I go, ah, do I don't want to put that on the page? That is always an arrow that is either pointing—no, it's almost always pointing to gold, honestly.

I learned this when I wrote A Life in Stitches. My editor was Jennifer Traig, who is a phenomenal memoir writer. She wrote Devil in the Details, and a bunch of others.

I remember writing these essays for A Life in Stitches and sending them to her as I went. I would be so proud of these pieces, and then she would basically—I'm not exaggerating—x out most of what I had sent her, and she would always hone in on the one or two sentences that I had not felt comfortable with.

She always said, “I don't care about the rest, go here.” I think if we have that in mind while we're creating our characters, or while we're writing our characters, how can they be truly flawed, it makes writing fiction so fun.

Going back to fear, writers fear that our readers are not going to like the main character, they're going to be unsympathetic if we make them flawed and real, but I've almost never found that to be the case.

If they did come off a little bit, really unlikable, that's an editor's job. I also like to leave my editors a job to do. The editor can say, “Ah, no, I'm not feeling this. Why don't you change this?” But making them as real as possible, emotionally especially.

Showing them with those flaws is beautiful, and that's what I love to read. I would love to read characters in novels that make me feel like I'm not alone. That's what I love.

Joanna: That is it, isn't it? That's one of the things we look for in reading is certainly to feel that way. I think with memoir, a lot of it is hope, I think, seeing someone else's life transformation in some way that can help you in your own life.

I wanted to come back to the chair. So you made this chair, and you made it with your hands.

It's so interesting, because I booked myself on a stone carving weekend, so I'm going to do that. Of course, it's research for a book because I want to write about a stonemason which, of course, is completely random.

I wondered about this analogue experience. So I've been thinking about this, and I know your business as well is mostly online, but—

These analogue physical experiences are becoming important in this digital age.

With the rise of AI, and we both use AI in different ways as part of our tools, we think it's a tool, but it is changing the digital space. There's part of me that is feeling like I need to incorporate more physical, live-person things into my business, but I'm also afraid.

Since we're using fear as most of this episode, the fear is my energy because I find it hard. Also, hard is sometimes a good thing, and I should push myself into doing hard things.

Also, let's face it, the profit is usually bigger on digital things. So I wondered how you're thinking about this and incorporating that into how you're doing streams of income and all of this kind of thing?

Rachael: This is so good. So the experiences that we're talking about, these physical making experiences. I absolutely love that you're doing this stone carving, and I cannot wait to see pictures on your Instagram about this. The Adirondack chair building course was so unpleasant in so many ways.

I absolutely hated it so much until I really gathered this beginner's mind. I just decided that on the third night—I was in the bathroom crying because I had cut the wrong piece of wood, and now I didn't have enough wood to make the back slats. It was awful, and I knew I'd have to go back to the hardware store.

Then I just decided, look, I am never going to sell Adirondack chairs as a business. This is not going to be my profession. I don't have to be perfect at this.

I just decided that I would ask for help, and I would go talk to the teacher every single time I got confused. It was a lot, I've never done anything like this, and he would help me.

That's where the class really got fun because it put me in connection with him, and with my classmates, and asking them for help. Then they would come and ask me for help, which was really weird because I barely knew what I was doing.

When I think about this, we have been staring at computers for like 30-ish, 30 odd years of the last 200,000 years of human evolution. Up until the Industrial Revolution, every single thing we owned or used had to be made by hand by someone so we always knew someone who could make everything around us.

We were all makers. It's in our bones and our DNA to make, but even more than that, I think it's in our DNA to feel connected while doing the making.

Like, I'm also undertaking sourdough right now, and I'm in communication with a lot of—I know I'm the very last on the block—but with a lot of other people who are talking about this and doing it next to each other.

So my sisters, and I have two sisters, and one just moved to New Zealand not long ago, but the three of us we get together on Zoom a lot. We never hang out on Zoom and just talk, like stare at the computer like we're in a meeting, we do things.

Christie will be mending trousers. I'll be making granola. Bethany will be knitting. Then we'll move around the house and we'll take the computers with us. We're always doing something.

I think that that's how we all lived for so long. When we made things, when we did things, we did them in community. That's how we built community was all of that beautiful conversation that happens while we are doing other things.

I think sitting alone and writing is the polar opposite of how humans evolved.

There's nothing wrong with it. It's just not what we've always done.

Even letter writing in the past, it was still a direct connection. It was a call and response. If I was writing a letter to somebody, I was thinking about them constantly, responding to what they had said in a letter, and then they do the same thing and send it back.

So us writing into the void is such a different experience, that I think that that's why this physical hands-on making is something that can, yes, be very frustrating if we don't know what we're doing, but it also soothes us. It makes us feel very, very human.

So to your question, which I just think is such a good one to think about, is that in our author business, it's so easy, I don't know about you, but it's so easy for me to just get lost in the computer, and lost in my thoughts, and plans, and worries, and what am I going to do next, and looking at my to do list.

To come back to thinking about it like when I am knitting socks on Zoom with my sisters, what is the connection? What am I trying to do with my writing?

Almost all of the people who listen to your podcast, and almost all of the people who listen to my podcast, are writers. There are some people who are not for whatever reason, but most of them are writers, and almost none of them are writers who only want to journal and then burn the pages.

I am sure that there are two or three people who want to do that, but most of the people who listen to these shows are writers who want to meaningfully connect at some point, in some fashion.

When I'm writing, I need to think about who I'm connecting with.

Usually I make that into a specific person. Sometimes it's been my ideal reader whose name is Laura Jean. She's a real person, she loves my books, and she's been a beta reader for me a couple of times. So sometimes I'm writing to her.

More often, I'm writing to me. I'm writing to myself in a different version, in a different universe, at a different age.

What I want to write is what would please me so much if I found this book that I wouldn't want to get out of bed because I'd want to hang out with this exact person. I'd want to hang out with this Rachael. Then I write that.

So what I think about is using writing to connect to ourselves, and when we connect ourselves in that really deep way, then we're going to connect with others.

On top of that, I do think that there is so much use for actual community. Actual community in whatever way that best suits you, which sometimes is not what I want.

I know that I don't want to go to writer's groups. When I do, oh my gosh, I'm so full when I leave. When I go to my RWNZ group, I don't want to go, I've got a bunch of other things I want to do, but if I hang out with people who are thinking about the same things that I am, it just feels good.

Joanna: I find it interesting because I always think about doing more in-person events. I keep getting emails from people who came to my full day workshop here in Bath last year.

I guess I'm thinking, oh, maybe I could do another one, and I know how tiring it is. Yet also, it's so tiring in a good way. I'm planning on going to Las Vegas to Author Nation, and again—

It's a challenge to do these in-person things, but there's so much benefit from doing it.

I mean, you have this “Rachael Says Write” thing where you get on Zoom, and like you're writing and other people turn up and write. I just think that's absolutely crazy. I can't imagine anything worse.

I'm like, that's just weird. Yet, presumably people love it, and you presumably like it if you keep doing it.

Rachael: That's such a good point because I don't like it, I love it. I love it.

Joanna: That's so weird.

Rachael: Here's the thing, like it takes a lot of energy to be on a call of any kind, Zoom of any kind. But not this, because what we do is we talk for like—by we, I mean I give them a quote and I ask how they're doing and they type it in the chat.

Then for two hours, we're silent. Then at the very end, we get back in and we say how it went. I'm not looking at the screen. If I go over to the screen, I love to see their thinking faces.

I know that my thinking face is just bananas, but usually we're not. We're just looking at our work. Knowing that other people are writing at the same time is so cool. It makes me work, which is so dumb because they don't know what I'm looking at. I could be looking at Facebook for all they know.

Joanna: You could be doing email or whatever!

Rachael: I could be putting my screen off and making phone calls, but I'm not. We actually write. It's been so cool and so popular that I used to charge $39 a month for it, and I'm taking a little bit of a pay cut because I want more people to do it.

So I just opened it up to $2 at the Patreon level, and so many people are joining. It's so fun. Okay, so that is one of my favorite connections. Apparently, I got really excited just to think about it, but it wouldn't be your way.

Joanna: I'm not doing that by the way. Anyone listening, I am not doing that!

Rachael: I will say that in terms of like neurocognitive differences, I do have ADHD, and body doubling is a thing that a lot of ADHD people work better if they know that somebody is doing the same thing at the same time. I do attract some neuro-spicy people, and we do that together.

Joanna: I like neuro-spicy. That's awesome.

Well, let's talk about another fear, which is your first Kickstarter launches today as we record this. It still hasn't quite yet gone live, but it will be live when this episode goes out.

I remember how absolutely terrified I was before pressing the button. There's like literally a button to press. You've launched so many books, you've done traditionally published books, you've done indie, you've done a lot of launches. So how are you feeling?

How has this Kickstarter process pushed you more than normal?

Rachael: I've been terrified. It's not a bigger project than I thought it would be because people like you have been really clear. You and Monica have been really clear.

This is a huge thing. This is not a small thing. Don't expect to do this in a weekend or a couple of afternoons. I thought it was cool. I thought it was cool.

Then this morning, I woke up and I was going to go hit the live button, and my finger literally was on the button, and then this thought floated through my head that said, “I put everything in this in US dollars, but what if it's actually New Zealand dollars?” Because I know on the preview page, it shows New Zealand dollars. It defaults to where I am.

Joanna: Just explain why that's an issue, the difference in currency.

Rachael: The New Zealand dollar is probably about 61 cents to the American dollar. So I sent this desperate email out to Kickstarter. They're off today because it's a holiday, but hopefully they come back tomorrow and I'll hit the button.

Everything's lined up to go. Today was the day, but if that went through, it would be such a major error. It would basically be like saying, if I'm planning for 1/3 profit, hopefully, I just cut my profit by a third, plus shipping that I've now put in the wrong currency too.

I would end up, no matter what kind of book I sold, I would end up paying for it. I would pay for every single thing that left the Kickstarter.

Joanna: It's a pretty big possible mistake.

Rachael: My heart rate went through the roof. I screamed, and my wife ran in. She was like, “Is it okay?!” I'm like, I don't know if it's okay.

I haven't felt this kind of fear around a launch in many, many years. I think the fear is bigger because I know that for Kickstarter, you've got to push it. Like I actually have to do promotion, and I, like so many writers, hate promotion.

So, so much of the planning for the Kickstarter has gone into things like planning the emails, planning the social media, planning the extra podcasts that I'm going to put out, planning Patreon posts.

I'm much more comfortable pushing a book out. If it's a self-published book, I like to send one or two emails. Like I send one email, and then maybe a couple of weeks later, I send a second email, and I'm done.

With traditionally published books, I don't do much more than that, either. So doing a Kickstarter has made me have to trust myself more that I will really act like a business person, instead of a writer who likes to do a little business.

Like this is this is serious, and I'm really serious about this book. This is a book that I did not offer to my agent. I love this book, I want to get it out in the world. It's going to be Kickstarter, and then it'll be on my Shopify for a month exclusively, and then it'll go wide.

So I have all the plans in place, but I didn't know I would be this nervous.

Joanna: I mean, I really felt that, having obviously done two now, but also with more coming, that it's a worthwhile push, and that actually, this is really good for us.

In fact, talking about unstuck, I feel like we had been stuck in our processes. Like you said, we've been doing this, I guess almost 20 years now since we started doing this writing for publication and being serious about a career.

I feel like, oh my goodness, I had been stuck in my ways. I'd been stuck in the way I use social media, been stuck in the way I just did email. All of these things we can easily, if we just repeat the same thing over and over again, we can become stuck in that.

So I feel like the Kickstarter process is ‘kicking' us out of that.

What are some of the things you're doing for this Kickstarter that you haven't done before, in terms of marketing?

Or are you just doing a lot more in the period?

Rachael: I'm doing a lot more in the period, but what you say is exactly right. I think that I've just gotten complacent, and that's not a good place to be. For me, that's not a good place to be. I do need to be pushing myself.

This feels like an external push that I am choosing, that will be hard to do, and also so worthwhile. On one hand, it's making me believe in myself.

In the other hand, I think the fear comes from that I'm just scared that I will totally fail. That I will either not hit my goal, which is very low, or that I'll screw up all of the money.

Like your biggest fear is, everybody says, do the shipping, make sure the all of the numbers are right. And what if you do that in the wrong currency? Like there are fears I didn't even know to have.

I could screw this up so badly. No one likes that. No one likes the fear of abject failure.

So what I like about it is it's reminding me, again, to face it and go, “This is uncomfortable, and it's not going to kill me. This is good for me.” I can almost sometimes enjoy that discomfort if I think about it that way.

Joanna: Tell us about Unstuck, your book, and also what people can find in the Kickstarter.

Rachael: Thank you. You can find it at RachaelHerron.com/unstuck, or you can just Google “Kickstarter Unstuck.” I think it's the second one that comes up, it'll be obvious.

It is the memoir about every step of the way, from the moment that my wife and I decided mid-pandemic that we would move to New Zealand, kind of out of the blue. We never really thought we would do this. Then we decided and we went.

It's every step, from selling everything we own, selling the house, moving very quickly because of reasons. We were gone for months after we really made the decision.

Then moving to this new country and finding a home because we didn't know where to live, finding friends because we didn't have any friends. It's the whole exploration of that.

In the Kickstarter, there is obviously the normal things, the eBook and the paperback and the hardcover.

The thing I'm most excited about is that the Kickstarter is allowing me to have the time to do the audio, and I love doing and producing audiobooks. This will be my third, and it's one of my passions.

Also, in terms of perks over there, there's an online writing retreat, and there is coaching with me. That is something I probably haven't done in five years. There's actual coaching. Then there's other fun add-ons like other books I've written and signed things and fun things. I get so nervous just thinking about it.

Joanna: So you narrate the audiobook?

Rachael: Yes, yes.

Joanna: Oh, fantastic. It's interesting, you say that you really enjoy that. It is hard narrating an audiobook, but you really enjoy that.

Rachael: I love everything about it except the editing, just because it just always takes longer than you think it will. You were the one who turned me on to Hindenburg Narrator, which is just the best program ever. I absolutely love Hindenburg.

It just makes a lot of things easier, and because we've been at this game a long time, it's just so nice to get the tools that we've always wanted.

I remember when we had to code ePubs, and it was terrible. So now when the tools roll out, we use them. But yes, I love doing the audio. It's a thrill.

Joanna: That's awesome. Okay, so—

Where else can people find you, and your podcast, and everything you do online?

Rachael: Thank you. The podcast, it is formerly “How Do You Write” and now it is called “Ink in Your Veins” because I think we do all have ink in our veins or we would not continue doing this.

If you're a writer, you may want to get on my writers email list because I try to give away everything that I know. That's over at RachaelHerron.com/write.

If people are interested in the “Rachael Says Write” where we just write together for two to eight hours a week, that's at patreon.com/rachael.

Thank you so much for letting me talk to you about all this stuff, especially the scary stuff, Jo.

Joanna: Thanks for coming on.

The post Facing Fears In Writing And Life With Rachael Herron first appeared on The Creative Penn.

There are many options for book marketing, so how do you choose the right ones for you? I give my thoughts on the different polarities on the marketing scale to help you figure out what might work for your book, your stage on the author journey, and your lifestyle.

In the intro, Storybundle for writers; Seth Godin on Tim Ferriss; Amazon's investment in Anthropic; Claude 3 direct or Poe.com; Claude prompt library; join me and Joseph Michael for a prompt webinar, 4 April, register here; plus, Spear of Destiny.

Today's show is sponsored by my patrons! Join my community and get access to extra videos on writing craft, author business, AI and behind the scenes info, plus an extra Q&A show a month where I answer Patron questions. It's about the same as a black coffee a month! Join the community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn

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Joanna Penn writes non-fiction for authors and is an award-winning, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thriller, dark fantasy, and memoir as J.F. Penn. She’s also an award-winning podcaster, creative entrepreneur, and international professional speaker.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

• Traditional versus indie publishing
• Short term versus long term
• Income versus brand building
• Paid versus free
• The book versus you as the author
• Stand-alone versus series
• Exclusive versus wide publishing
• Publish fast versus publish slowly
• Write to market versus write first, market later
• Online versus offline. Global versus local
• Introvert versus extrovert
• Digital versus physical
• Data-focused versus intuitive marketing
• Fiction versus non-fiction
• Doing your own marketing versus hiring professionals

Let me know what you think — leave a comment here or message me on X @thecreativepenn

This chapter is from my Author Blueprint, available as a free ebook at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint or in print and large print from CreativePennBooks.com and also Amazon. 

There are more marketing strategies in my book, How to Market a Book, which is a few years old now, but the strategies and mindset are still valid, so I’d say 90% of it is still applicable, even if the tools have changed. 

Different ways to market your book

I frequently get asked, ‘How do I market my book?’ 

There is no quick and easy answer, no magic bullet, only various options that you can use at different points along your author journey.

There is no ‘right’ way to market a book, and there are as many ways to reach readers as there are writers. We each use a different combination of what works for us, and most successful authors use varying types of marketing tactics, as well as changing things up over time. 

You must find what works best for you — for each book and at each stage of your author journey.

So instead of giving you a list of book marketing tactics, here are some of the opposite polarities on the marketing scale that — along with your definition of success — will help shape your book promotion choices.

Think of each as a continuum: You will move up and down on these scales with every book as your career evolves. You’ll use different elements for each launch, as well as for long-term sales.

Here are some things to consider.

Traditional versus indie publishing

Your marketing options vary based on how you publish and how much control you have over the book.

If you’re traditionally published, you might be assigned a marketing team to help you or at least offered some aspects of book promotion as part of your contract. These might include an email blast, paid ads, deals in a store or supermarket, or help with pitching media for interviews and live events. 

But unless you are a big name, it’s likely that the promotions team will only be available for the launch period. If you want to keep your book selling over the longer term, you will need to do at least some of your own marketing. 

You won’t have control of your pricing, your cover, or the metadata around categories and keywords, and it won’t be financially viable to do paid ads as you won’t be able to measure sales and return-on-investment (ROI). This is why most traditionally published authors focus on marketing through PR, literary festivals, live events, relationships with book bloggers and media, as well as trying to build an email list and social media following.

Indie authors are responsible for their own marketing from day one, but also have control of pricing, the book cover, and metadata, and they can measure ROI with daily sales reporting.

As a result, they have more freedom with book marketing, and the opportunity to do price promotions, bundling, sales description, category and keyword changes, as well as paid advertising with measurable results.

Short term versus long term

New authors with only one book will often focus on short-term sales because they can’t yet imagine a future with more books. 

Short-term sales are fantastic for that initial launch push, but they often cost money and are not sustainable. The spike often lasts only as long as you actively market the book or pay for ongoing traffic through advertising.

If you want a long-term career as an author, you also need to think about long-term marketing and focus on building a sustainable baseline income, money that comes in from your books consistently every month without you having to pay for it. 

You need more books on the market, more streams of income, more readers on your email list, and other ways to attract and retain them. That takes time to build but is worth the investment if you want a long-term career.

Of course, most authors combine both kinds.

When I do a Kickstarter launch (my next one is Spear of Destiny), I have a couple of weeks going all out with marketing actions every day — emails, social media, paid ads, podcast episodes, content marketing, tapping into my networks, and more — but once the campaign is done, I shift to the more evergreen, long-term marketing approach.

Income versus brand building

Some marketing activities are about making direct income, whereas others are about brand building. 

An article in the mainstream media or an interview on a radio show or a podcast with a large audience can be great for building awareness of your author brand, and as social proof for your website.

Having a book launch party at a swanky location might make the local paper and give you great photos for social media.

Starting your own podcast, YouTube channel, or social media account and being consistent with posting niche content is a great way to build up a network and get attention over the long term.

But these kinds of marketing are more about building awareness of your author brand. They (hopefully) result in book sales eventually, but it will take time. 

If you want to focus on immediate sales and income, use paid ads to direct traffic directly to a book sales page, measure ROI, test new variations, and iterate.

In terms of cash flow, if you want to receive money in your bank account more quickly, then selling direct can be worthwhile as you are paid within days, or even within hours, rather than months or years with traditional contracts.

Paid versus free

You will always pay for book marketing — but it’s your choice to pay with either your money or your time.

Paid advertising can include newsletter blasts like BookBub or Bargain Booksy, as well as pay-per-click ads on Amazon or Meta, or hiring a freelancer to help get you media appearances, amongst many other options.

Do not pay for book reviews or files with email lists or for anything that might compromise your integrity. There are lots of scams out there, so check Writer Beware if you have concerns, or ask in one of the established author groups online.

I use Amazon Ads for some non-fiction books, and Meta Ads to my Shopify store for my fiction, as well as newsletter blast services, alongside content marketing.

Content marketing involves providing something for free that attracts your target reader, usually in return for an email address. Some of those people might buy other books and services from you. 

I started my website in 2008 and my podcast in 2009 and — apart from hosting fees — they cost time, rather than money. 

For my non-fiction books for authors as Joanna Penn, content marketing includes my weekly show, The Creative Penn Podcast, as well as articles on my website, videos on YouTube, and my Author Blueprint. 

I also do interviews on other podcasts, and I have profiles on social media, although I am pulling away from active time investment in that area.

For my fiction and memoir as J.F. Penn, content marketing includes my perma-free first in series on all stores, Stone of Fire, and my free thriller on signup at: JFPenn.com/free

I also have the Books and Travel Podcast, which is more sporadic than The Creative Penn, but helps to bring people to my travel memoir, Pilgrimage. I’m also more active on social media with Instagram @jfpennauthor and Facebook @jfpennauthor, as well as Boards on Pinterest @jfpenn.

Other authors use social commerce engines like TikTok, creating multiple short videos to attract readers to their books. Investigate the options and find what works for your book/s and your lifestyle, as any marketing needs to be sustainable if you want to keep selling.

The book versus you as the author

Consider how you discover new books as a reader. 

Perhaps you’re at a bookstore or browsing online and a cover catches your eye, or you delve into the category or genre of books you prefer, or you search for a particular type of book with keywords. 

Maybe you see an ad on social media and click through to read more. You don’t care who the author is, you just know you want the book.

These are examples of book-specific marketing. You need a cover that will catch the eye of the kinds of readers you want to attract. You also need to put it in the right categories and use the right keywords, so they can find you. You can also explore paid advertising. 

Now consider other ways you might discover books. 

Perhaps you’re listening to a podcast or a radio station and you hear an interview with an author and they sound interesting. Or the host recommends a book and you trust them, so you go check it out.

Or you follow an interesting person on social media and they have a link to their book in their bio. Or you’re at an event, and the speaker has a book that sounds worthwhile. Or you’re on an author’s email list, and they have a new release.

These are examples of author-specific marketing, reach that is based around you as a person, and more about relationships, networks, and trust in your author brand. Again, you will use aspects of both.

Stand-alone versus series

Most non-fiction books are stand-alone, in that you can read the book and you don’t need to read anything else to complete the experience. 

However, you can write books aimed at the same audience, use the same overall branded cover design, and tie them together with a series title, like my Books for Authors, which helps to market them online.

In terms of fiction, it’s much easier to market a series than a stand-alone, as you can do price promotions on the first in series and hope to hook readers enough so they continue to read through.

I have a couple of stand-alone fiction books — Risen Gods, a YA dark fantasy set in New Zealand, co-written with J. Thorn, and Catacomb, a horror novella. They get great reviews, but they are hard to market.

My ARKANE action-adventure thrillers are easier to promote, as I have twelve books in the series, with more to come.

I have a free first-in-series ebook, Stone of Fire, on all platforms, with thousands of reviews which I can promote with all kinds of marketing. It brings people into the series every day. 

Exclusive versus wide publishing

If you are exclusive to Amazon with the KDP Select program, then you will have visibility for your ebooks in Kindle Unlimited (KU).

KU has readers who will borrow, binge read, and return ebooks and audiobooks within that ecosystem. You are paid for pages read, and you can access KU-specific marketing options like countdown deals and free days, as well as gain visibility in certain lists.

However, if you’re exclusive to Amazon, you miss out on the audience of readers who buy and borrow elsewhere, including in libraries, nor can you sell direct or take advantage of other marketing opportunities.

I choose to publish wide, which means I sell my books in all formats in as many stores and on as many platforms as I can.

I mainly focus on my own Shopify stores and Kickstarter since they bring in the greatest revenue, but I also use various retailers and other platforms as outlined in the self-publishing chapters.

I use platform-specific, limited-time marketing (e.g., the Kobo Promotions tab or Draft2Digital promotions) every month to reach readers across the world, as well as offering bundle deals and discount coupons on my own Shopify stores.

Publish fast versus publish slowly

Publishing fast, sometimes called ‘rapid release,’ is a form of marketing for those who focus on Amazon and Kindle Unlimited, as the algorithm favours new content, which you can amplify with paid ads and promotions, as well as pre-orders to the next in series.

However, most authors choose to write and publish over a longer time frame, with a less frequent schedule, using launch promotions and longer-term marketing tactics. This is a more sustainable method and the way I publish.

Write to market versus write first, market later

‘Writing to market’ bakes the marketing into the book by writing something that will sell because there is already a hungry audience waiting to devour it. This suits authors who can write fast and adapt quickly to new niches, as well as authors who read and enjoy a specific genre and thus know it well.

Writing to market usually focuses on Amazon and Kindle Unlimited, and can work for some authors until the subcategory becomes saturated. At that point, the market becomes harder to sell in, and some writers move on to other genres.

The other approach is to write what you want to write and figure out the marketing later. 

Most authors start out writing the book of their heart, the book their Muse wants them to write, the book that has been itching for years to be created.

They write that book with no thought of marketing and worry about reaching readers later. Many will happily continue in this vein, satisfying artistic needs before marketing considerations.

My books as J.F. Penn are all written for the Muse. Each project was born from my curiosity, and, as I am a discovery writer, I often didn’t even know what the book would be until I finished.

But sometimes I have written to market. For example, I wrote my books for authors specifically to help others on the author journey for my audience at The Creative Penn.

Neither option is ‘better’ than the other. What’s so fantastic about the creative world we live in now is that there’s room for writers of all types, so find the method that works for you and your books.

Online versus offline — global versus local

Offline marketing is anything you do in person — speaking at a local event or school assembly, attending a networking event, or talking at a literary festival, book club, or library. 

The benefits of this type of marketing include immediate sales and local brand building, as well as the possibility of becoming part of the community.

But offline, local marketing is not scalable. You can only reach people who are physically with you at that moment. 

You could spend the same time writing an article or short story that could touch thousands online in multiple countries, or do a podcast interview that reaches a global market, or schedule short videos or images on social media within your niche. 

I spend most of my marketing time and budget online, as it’s scalable and an effective use of my time. I focus on a global audience, but I also do some speaking events and writers’ festivals every year, so I meet people in person.

Introvert versus extrovert

Thanks to the book Quiet by Susan Cain, many writers now happily claim their introversion. I’m an introvert, which means I get energy from being alone, and I struggle with large groups, lots of noise, and overstimulating environments. 

I’d rather think than speak, and I’d rather write than talk.

I don’t answer the phone unless it’s a scheduled call.

I’m INFJ on the Myers-Briggs scale, which is a rare type in the general population but far more common in the author community. 

Introverts struggle with in-person marketing, book store and live events, as well as sustained periods without alone time, like the classic book tour.

But being an introvert can be a superpower for online marketing. We can write and create content alone, attracting an audience online and connecting with readers through social media.

Extroverts get their energy from people, so live events in person and online are fun and energising and may be a better way for these authors to market and connect. 

Digital versus physical

We can publish our books in different formats — ebook and digital audio, and then various kinds of print like paperback, hardback, large print, or special editions.

With digital products, you have more options for price promotions — for example, a limited time free or discounted deal — because there is no ongoing cost of production. 

Stone of Fire is a perma-free ebook on all the ebook stores, Kobo Promotions allow discount deals, and I use Chirp Books for occasional discounted audiobook promotions.

I also have digital bundles of ebooks and audiobooks at my stores, CreativePennBooks.com and JFPennBooks.com, as well as offering discount coupons to my email subscribers and advance review team.

There are fewer options for price promotions with print products as there is a cost to produce every book, so you have to market in different ways and attract readers with things that digital products cannot do. Social media favors beautiful print books as they look more attractive in TikTok videos (just search BookTok), or in Instagram images or Facebook ads.

For my Kickstarter campaigns, I produce special hardback editions with color photos, silk finish cover, metallic foil, and ribbons, and I am investigating sprayed edges and other print-specific options in future. 

I have spiral-bound workbooks and print bundles for non-fiction on CreativePennBooks.com, and I offer bundle deals on both my stores for print. You can also offer signed editions, special merchandise, and more.

Data-focused versus intuitive marketing

There are two kinds of people: Those who enjoy spreadsheets and data analysis and those who don’t! 

I am one of the latter, but there are plenty of authors who love using data to drive their marketing, particularly in the paid advertising arena.

But don’t worry, there’s room for both kinds! 

Data-focused marketing involves digging down into the Amazon subcategories, looking for under-served niches and focusing on algorithms, as well as analysing spreadsheets and reports for a higher click-through rate or return-on-investment (ROI).

Intuitive marketing is more about doing what feels right for you and your book, and trusting that you will attract readers over time. Of course, you have to do some kind of marketing in a sustainable way for the longer term, but this approach is more individual. 

Back in 2008, when I started out trying to market my first book, I made it onto national TV and into the papers, but I didn’t enjoy the spotlight, and I needed something sustainable I could do from home. I also had no author friends, so I started my show, The Creative Penn Podcast, well before podcasting went mainstream. 

I enjoyed it, so I kept going, even though it took years to grow a listenership. Now my podcast is the engine of my non-fiction book business, but only because I leaned into my intuition and did something I enjoyed and could sustain for years. 

I do some paid advertising, but I use Amazon auto-ads, which optimise themselves, and I outsource my Meta advertising so I don’t have to manage the optimisation. 

However, there is some data I focus on — my income and bank balance. I am a businesswoman as well as an intuitive creative!

I highly recommend Dear Writer, Are You Intuitive? by Becca Syme and Susan Bischoff if you’re interested in discovering more. Becca and I also discussed intuitive writing and marketing in an interview on The Creative Penn here.

Fiction versus non-fiction

While many kinds of marketing — such as email marketing, paid ads, and social media — can work for all books, there are some kinds of marketing that are more effective for fiction versus non-fiction and vice versa.

For my fiction under J.F. Penn, I mostly focus on marketing the first books in my various series, using perma-free and price promotions on ebooks and audio, as well as box sets and series bundles, and Meta paid ads. 

I’m also expanding into print special editions and merchandise as part of my Kickstarter campaigns, and my store, JFPennBooks.com.

For non-fiction, I focus on marketing print and audio with higher-priced products, as non-fiction readers are less price sensitive than fiction readers, although I also have ebooks available. 

In terms of content marketing, for fiction, I have a free thriller, a free first-in-series book, and plenty of books and stories so readers can find me, as well as limited social media.

For non-fiction, my content marketing is mainly my podcast and articles on the website, online interviews, professional speaking, as well as having a series of books.

Doing your own marketing versus hiring professionals

There are many people and services you can hire for book marketing, but you need to consider two questions: 

(1) Is it worth doing?

(2) Is it worth paying for? 

For example, is it worth paying someone to run your Amazon Ads for you when you can set auto-ads running without intervention? 

Is it worth starting a TikTok channel if you hate watching videos? 

Is it worth paying a PR professional to get you interviews in magazines when you are just starting out and you’re unsure of your brand?

Over the years, I’ve mainly done my own book marketing, learning new skills, trying things out, and pivoting along the way. But I have paid professionals at different times for different things. 

At the time of writing, I pay a freelancer to format my podcast transcripts, and I have also outsourced Meta ads to MatthewJHolmes for my store, JFPennBooks.com.

If you want to hire a professional, be specific about what you want, as well as your timeframe.

Examples of specific advertising strategies might be ‘Run Meta Ads for three months to the first book in my fantasy series’ or ‘Pitch media outlets for three months around my non-fiction self-help book on dealing with anxiety.’ You will also need a budget.

If you want help with book marketing, you can hire vetted professionals from the Reedsy Marketplace. 

---

I’ve touched on just some of the options for book marketing, but don’t worry — you don’t have to learn everything all at once. 

Think about what might be right for your book, for your personality and lifestyle, as well as for this particular period of time in your author career.

Book marketing is not optional — you cannot just publish a book and expect it to sell — but you have the choice of what form that marketing takes. 

Pick something and give it a try, and you can learn more and pivot over time. 

---

This chapter is from my Author Blueprint, available as a free ebook at TheCreativePenn.com/blueprint or in print and large print from CreativePennBooks.com and also Amazon. 

There are more marketing strategies in my book, How to Market a Book, which is a few years old now, but the strategies and mindset are still valid, so I’d say 90% of it is still applicable, even if the tools have changed. 

The post Different Ways To Market Your Book With Joanna Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

What mindset shift do you need if you want to sell direct? How can you use Meta and AI tools to amplify your marketing? Matt Holmes gives his tips as well as insights from running my ads for my store, JFPennBooks.com.

In the intro, how to sell more books at live events [BookBub]; Future of publishing and LBF, includes video of our live panel [Orna Ross on SelfPublishingAdvice]; 5 Trends we learned at the Future of Publishing [Kickstart Your Book Sales]; Author business and Author Nation [Wish I'd Known Then]; Amazon de-lists my Companion workbooks, but you can buy the spiral-bound versions and bundles on my store, CreativePennBooks.com.

Plus, Nvidia's Earth2 digital twin development platform for climate science; Moonshots and Mindsets Podcast with Peter Diamandis; Sam Altman on GPT-5 [Lex Fridman] ; Using Claude for Shopify mass upload template [M.C.A. Hogarth]; Plus, join me and Joseph Michael for our AI webinar, 4 April, 8pm UK — register here to join us live or get the replay.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

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Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• A mindset shift when switching from KU to direct sales
• Control of your cash flow and customer base with direct sales
• Email marketing strategies
• AI automatic targeting vs. manual targetting
• Tools to create better ads for targeting your ideal reader
• Matthew's ad testing methodology
• The influx of print sales when selling direct and how to source them
• The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors and Facebook ad courses

You can find Matt at MatthewJHolmes.com.

Transcript of Interview with Matthew J. Holmes

Joanna: Matthew J. Holmes is a book marketing and direct sales specialist and the business partner of fantasy author, Lori Holmes. Matt has a great newsletter and courses for authors around Facebook ads and direct sales. Welcome to the show, Matt.

Matthew: Hi, Jo. Thank you so much for having me on the show. It's a pleasure to be here.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. First up, just—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into the self-publishing and book marketing space.

Matthew:   Sure. So actually, Jo, it's probably your fault, really. We actually found you, I think it was about 2016 – 2018, somewhere around there.

Lori, who as you said, is an author. She had a publishing deal with a publisher that fell through. Then we were deciding, should we go and find another publisher or should we try this self-publishing thing we thought about?

We did lots of Googling and came across your blog and your podcast and your YouTube videos. It was through that, that we decided, okay, let's try the self-publishing route. So that's the route we went because all of the content you were putting out. So it's funny to really come full circle and be on your podcast now.

So that sort of started off the self-publishing thing with Lori's book. She originally launched it in 2020, but that was after a rebrand before with the publishers, and she expanded that first book.

We launched in April 2020, and that is about the time when COVID hit. From about 2010, up to COVID, I ran a video production company. Before that, I worked at the BBC.

When COVID hit, my video production company just crashed and burned because you obviously couldn't go out and film people. I couldn't be around people, you had to be in bubbles and all that kind of thing. So that whole business just disappeared overnight, pretty much.

We had our first twin boys coming about two months later, and we suddenly found ourselves in this position where we have no income apart from the government furlough. That saw us through the first few months of COVID, really.

So I had a lot of time on my hands, and I like to keep busy. So I don't like to do nothing. So I launched myself into learning Facebook ads to advertise Lori's books.

That's really how I got started with it all. I found I really enjoyed the Facebook ads dashboard, creating ads and all that kind of stuff, and all that the geeky stuff around ads. So I just launched myself into advertising Lori's books.

It was just book one to begin with in April, and then book two came out in May. So a month later, because it was already written. Then we launched like a side novel, which again, was already written. I think it was June or July of that year, 2020.

Since then, Lori's launched one book a year. So she's got a total now of six books published.

It's just been one book a year, really. So that's our cadence. She's a very slow writer, but that's just the way she works, and it works for her.

So over time, we've just gradually increased the budgets, and we've obviously increased earnings as well. We're up to about $17,000 – $18,000 a month in royalties, with about 2x return on ad spend, about 2.5x, something like that. So we're spending sort of $7,000 to $8,000 a month on Facebook ads.

Then back in 2023, we started dabbling a bit in the direct sales side of things. We eventually pulled Lori's books out of KU in about October of 2023, and then went all in on the direct sales.

Even now, we are still selling on Amazon, and we're doing pretty well on Amazon. Just most of our budget now is going into the direct sales.

Joanna: I love this. So there's a few things. One, Lori is not a slow writer, she is a normal writer, writing one book a year. People have to remember this, like the indie author rapid release thing, that is not normal!

Also, she writes pretty hefty books, doesn't she? Like they're fantasy books, right?What's the word count on her books?

Matthew:  The first ones about 80,000, and then the other ones are up to about 150,000, something like that. Somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000. But there's a lot of background research that goes into them.

Joanna: Yes, I just wanted to point out that Lori has six books, and they are good size books. I think this is so important because so many people think you can only be successful if you have like— well, the 20 books to 50k is kind of the model that has been talked about, but of course, you don't need to have that many books. That model I think is the old kind of KU model.

What I love, and why you're here, is because you teach the newer model of using direct sales, but also using Meta ads, which we're going to come to. Thanks for sharing the numbers by the way, I think that's very generous of you to actually say numbers.

So Lori's books were in KU, and you pulled them out towards the end of last year, as you mentioned. For people listening, KU is just for eBooks. You were just doing print on the direct sales. Tell us—

How does the mindset have to shift between KU and selling direct?

Matthew: It's quite a big shift. It took us a while to work on, and I guess some days we still are whenever we have a slow day on the store.

With direct sales, you really are responsible for every single sale that comes in. Whether that's through ads, whether that's through email marketing, whether that's through any organic social media, you're responsible for all of it.

Whereas with Amazon, you have to get your books to a certain point in the store, and then Amazon can take over with the organic sales based on the Amazon bestseller rank.

You have to shift away from relying on Amazon to do all the selling for you, to you taking 100% responsibility for every sale.

That's probably the biggest shift we found.

It's a pretty daunting prospect to step away from KU. Particularly, Lori, she just has the one series. Well, okay, there's book one in the new series, but that's not doing much at the minute because it's not complete series.

It's just that all her books were in one series, and they were all in KU, and we pulled all of them out at once.

About 50% of Lori's royalties were from KU, so it was a big drop. So we had to make that work on a direct sales basis to get it to almost replace that income.

Joanna: Why did you do it?

People are like, why did you do it then?

Matthew:

Why did we do it? To have more control and have more ownership, really, of the people that are purchasing the books.

To have a more direct channel of communication to every reader, to be able to nurture the relationship with every reader a lot more than we can with the likes of Amazon.

Also, we can earn a lot more with the store in terms of the royalties we get because we don't have the Amazon's cut to pay. So we can earn a lot more for every sale that we generate through the store. They were the biggest reasons, really.

Joanna: Just on the money, so you mentioned the amount that you spend on Facebook ads. The other thing is cashflow, right, because if you send traffic to Amazon, you're not getting paid for that for 60 days. Whereas with selling direct, you can get paid the same day or within 24 to 48 hours.

Matthew: Yes, that's the other big thing, actually. We've set it to every week now. So you can choose your cadence of how often you're paid, so we set it every week.

Yes, in terms of cash flow and supporting the ads, yes, you haven't got to wait. If you have a big month, you haven't got to wait two months to get that income into your bank account to pay for the ads if you want to start scaling up. So you can make decisions much more quickly because you have the cash flow to support it.

Joanna: Also, talk about the difference between spending money on ads to your store and getting customer data versus sending traffic to Amazon.

In terms of email marketing, how much can you sell in different ways?

It's not all ads, is it?

Matthew: No, very much not. The email is a big thing because you can send traffic to your store, and okay, people may not buy straightaway there and then, but they may sign up to your email list through whatever you're offering. Whether it's a sample chapter, or sample chapters, a free book, or maybe it's a discount code.

They may sign up for that, but not make a decision to buy straightaway. But you can have a flow of emails, a sequence of emails, that are automatically sent to these people over a certain timeframe. Those can bring them back to your store to make a decision further down the line. So that's the big thing.

Okay, the ads. Books are a fairly impulse buy, I guess, because they're relatively cheap compared to other products online. You also have to think about people have got to be spending, with Lori's books, about 10, 12, 14 hours to read them. So that's a big-time investment there.

So it's not just, oh, it's a three pound or $3 thing to buy. It's the time element as well, because that's obviously our biggest, most valuable asset is time. We can always make more money, we can't make more time.

So we have to position the value of buying this book in the first place that it's going to be worth their time, not just their money. We can do that over email.

If we send people to Amazon and they decide not to buy, okay, Amazon may email them a day or so later and remind them of the book. That can generate some good sales for you, without a doubt.

But you didn't have control over that. You can't build that personal connection with every reader like you can when you're selling direct.

Joanna: Another big difference is we have—I say we, I mean I, and many of us—have spent many years get building our email list through freebies. Here's a free book in exchange for signing up for the email.

With selling direct, you're actually getting emails of buyers, which is a complete shift in mindset.

So it changes things because these are people who have already paid for a book.

The other thing that's different with the way you're now doing things, and can do, is conversion ads versus the pay-per-click ads.

Can you explain the difference of conversion ads, and why selling direct enables us to use this in a different way?

Matthew: Sure. So this is a big topic, but I'll try to condense it down. So when we're sending traffic from Facebook or Meta ads to Amazon, we have to use something called the traffic objective.

This is just where Facebook is optimizing to get the most number of clicks on your ads for the lowest possible cost. So once someone clicks on an ad and leaves Facebook and goes to Amazon, Facebook or Meta, they have no idea what's happening after the click.

So you can get a lot of clicks over to Amazon, and we can track the conversions to an extent with Amazon attribution. But when we start sending people from our Meta ads to our store, our direct sales store, we use something called the sales objective.

What that allows us to do, is once we have installed the Facebook pixel and the conversion API on our store, which is a piece of code you put on your store to allow your store to speak to Meta and Facebook — 

Meta can then optimize your ads to show them to people who have an intent to make a purchase.

This is really powerful, because it's not just optimizing for clicks anymore to get the cheapest possible clicks, it's trying to get you purchases of your products, in our case, our books.

So it can find people that have a good history and behavioral signs of actually making purchases online and making purchases that are similar to what you are selling. So that's probably the biggest difference.

These ads are slightly bit more expensive, but they're not massively. When we're sending traffic from our ads to Amazon, they're probably 10 – 15 pence a click, whereas to our store, they're perhaps 35 – 40 pence, something like that.

So okay, it's a little bit more expensive, but in terms of the conversions we get, it's converting much better with our store than it was on Amazon. That's with the data we got through Amazon attribution to track the sales and the page-read that were coming from the ads.

So when you use a sales objective, it allows Facebook to just optimize for a more valuable interaction with whatever you're selling. We found it to be a much better way to actually generate sales on our store is through the sales objective, rather than the traffic objective.

I have tested the traffic objective to direct sales, and it generated zero sales because there was no intent behind the people clicking on the ad. All they have shown a history of is clicking on ads.

So we want to find people that have a history of making purchases, rather than just clicking on ads. So yes, it's a much better objective really to use when you're selling direct.

Joanna: Obviously, this is an audio podcast, so we're not showing you all this, but you have a very useful newsletter, and you have very reasonably priced courses. So people can go find out more about that. We're not going to get too much into technical detail.

One of the things that I really like about the way you do things, too, is you know, everyone listening knows, I'm AI positive. Every week right now, the AI systems are getting better and better and better.

Some people will find that scary, for sure. Scary on the one hand, but on the other hand —

AI is useful in terms of helping us with marketing. It is one of the things we should all be leaning on because most authors want to write, they don't want to market.

So tell people how you're using Meta's AI targeting instead of what we've been talking about for years as authors, which is doing all this manual targeting. So I guess auto targeting versus manual targeting.

Matthew: So I used to do the detailed targeting, and quite intensely. At the end of 2022, our Facebook ads completely crashed and burned, and I panicked for a bit.

I did a lot of testing, and what I ended up doing was doing zero targeting, so something called broad targeting or unrestricted targeting.

So typically what you would do historically, you would say, “I want to show my ads to people who have an interest in crime books,” for example, or “Stephen King.” And also, “I want to make sure I only show it to people who have an interest in Amazon Kindle,” or something like that.

We have to really narrow down the audience. It worked for a bit and then it would just sort of die off.

Joanna: There weren't any people left in that bucket, for example.

Matthew: That's right. Exactly. What I learned through going through this process of our ads not working and trying to get them working again, was that the detailed targeting doesn't do the targeting of your ads. It's the ad creative itself that creates the audience that does the targeting for you.

So that was a big sort of shift for me, in that, okay, I needed to — 

Get out of Facebook's way and just create ads that resonate with our ideal readers and let Facebook find those readers for me.

So, now I didn't do any detail targeting at all. All I do is age, gender, and location. Even then, I keep it pretty broad. So I'll say United States, male and female, 18 to 65, or 35 to 65+, something like that. That's all I'll do for the targeting.

Then on the ad side of things, the ad creative, I'm just creating ads that speak to our ideal reader. They resonate with the ideal reader, they position the books to our ideal readers, and then I just let Facebook get on with it and find the people that we want to show these ads to.

So it's a lot easier, it's a lot simpler to manage, because I had spreadsheets testing lots of different audiences and how they performed, and it was pretty complex. ‘

So now I just get out of Facebook's way or Meta's way, and just let the algorithm, the machine learning the AI, do all of that for me. So it's a much simpler way to run ads now.

Joanna: Yes, so everyone listening who is still listening, who hasn't been like, oh, no, ads. This is very, very exciting. In fact, I heard an interview with Mark Zuckerberg, who basically said, look, we want to be able to do all this for you.

Of course, image generation is becoming better and better in terms of AI-generated. So let's talk about that because when we started talking like six months ago, I kind of showed you how to use some of these AI tools for images.

So I know you've been playing with that. So talk about how you are—because you mentioned there, ads that speak to an ideal reader and that the ad creative is so important. How do people do that?

How might they use some tools to help them?

Matthew: Yes, so you, Jo, introduced me to a tool called Midjourney, which has been a game changer for me. I use it every week.

Joanna: It's so much fun, right?

Matthew: It is. I could spend hours in there. The other tool I use is called Claude. This is similar to ChatGPT, but I find it a lot better. I get a lot more creative output from Claude than ChatGPT.

I use those tools in conjunction with each other, which is something you taught me as well, which was using Claude to create prompts that we can use in Midjourney to create the images.

So Claude is like a text-based AI tool. And Midjourney is more of an image-based AI tool that uses text to create the images. So you put in what you want to create in terms of an image, what you want the image to look like, what you want in the image.

It will create some images for you that you can then go ahead and tweak and refine to what you want it to be. Is that a good way? You're much better at the AI stuff than me, Jo. So is that a good explanation? How would you describe it?

Joanna: Yes, I mean, technically, that's a way of doing it. You can either go to claude.ai or use poe.com if your country doesn't have direct access to Claude. I also think ChatGPT with DALL-E has got a lot better.

So just coming back to it, fair enough, we can create images with Midjourney.

How do you know which ads will speak to that ideal reader?

Like you have a testing process, don't you? You might create 10 images, but you're not just throwing them all and leaving them all running?

Matthew: No, no. I'm quite methodical about what I'm testing. Once I figure out something that works, then I'll try and refine that and create variations off that to try and improve it.

In terms of images that speak to your ideal readers, what I found initially worked well was just the sort of background image of a book cover works well.

Once I've started using these AI tools, I've taken scenes out of the book, and pop that into Claude, the AI tool, and asked Claude to create prompts I can use in Midjourney to create images around that particular scene.

These are scenes that are going to be quite prominent in the book. So if you write a fantasy book, it could be something like dragons or some sort of magical thing going on. If you write action-type books, then you can have people jumping off cliffs or running across rooftops, that sort of thing.

Just think of little things like that that just speak to the genre that you write in. That's the sort of way I've been doing it, really.

Then on top of that, what I find works really well, and it's always worked really well, from the beginning to even now, it's just using little review quotes, little snippets from readers who have left a review on your books on Amazon or on your store or another retailer, that just speak to your ideal reader.

So perhaps in the review they mentioned a trope, or they mentioned, “Best fantasy series I've ever read,” or, “Best historical fantasy series I've ever read,” or, “Best crime book,” or, “I fell in love with the characters in this fantasy book.”

Something that mentions the genre that you write in, that really helps with the AI side of things to find the right audience in terms of Meta's AI. Also, it helps for once Meta's actually created the audience and found the audience, it's going to speak to particular segments of that audience it's found as well. So that's the way I've been using it, really.

Joanna: Then as you said, you test things in a particular way. I think your testing methodology is easier to understand than some people's, but it's your methodology. So people can find that on your website. We will talk about this in a minute, in terms of the course.

I did want to ask you—okay, so just to be clear for everyone, you have been doing my ads for JFPennBooks.com for almost six months.

Matthew: Probably is about six months now.

Joanna: Yes, 5 – 6 months at this point. Obviously, I wanted you to do my ads for reasons of — selling books.

What I love is that every single day, I'm selling more fiction now than I have sold in a really long time. That is very exciting for me.

In terms of what we are selling most of, it's the eBook box set of my first three books in the ARKANE series. That's Stone of Fire, Crypt of Bone, and Ark of Blood, three full-length thrillers.

There's a special deal for the bundle. That's another thing with direct sales, you can do these bundles.

But we have upsells, so quite a lot of people end up buying the 12-book eBook bundle, and quite a lot of people also will buy the print books, and even the 12 print books.

I'm like, seriously, from one advert on Facebook, someone is buying 12 print books?

It's something I think that people don't realize if they've been advertising into KU.

The KU audience is not the same audience as the people who will buy 12 print books (from an author they have never heard of.)

So I guess—From the data that you have gleaned from my website, what are some of the things that you've learned?

Matthew: Yes, so we've tested quite a bit with your books. We've tested various different individual books, we've tested different box sets, we've tested paperbacks. I think that the biggest thing, really, is when you've got such a big collection of books like you have, Jo, it can be very tempting to advertise everything.

What we've really learned through this process was, okay, none of these other books—I'm not saying they're bad books at all, nothing like that—but what I'm saying is that —

The ads are really working for one particular box set, one particular series, and that's where we need to focus the budget.

It doesn't mean the other books aren't going to sell or nobody wants to read them, but if we can get people into your ecosystem through one series, then we can use the email marketing to introduce them to other series in your catalog that they'll enjoy.

So we tested various different books and eBooks and bundles and paperbacks. We landed on this box set that just kept performing again, and again, and again. It was this three-book bundle, the ARKANE bundle, and the first few books in that series.

It had a good deal on it and it had the upsell, which obviously works. Rather than just forcing money into advertising books that weren't selling through the Facebook ads, we just doubled down on that hero product, so to speak. That box set, that bundle were clearly what was working.

So there's no point spreading the budget across other books that weren't really working well, when we could just put more budget into this box set that is working.

Once they're into your system, into your ecosystem, into your world, then they can start getting introduced to the other books in your catalogue through the email.

Once you've got that first customer in and they're on your email list, you don't have to pay to acquire them again. You don't have to pay through the ads to acquire them again for a second time because they're already in your system. You can just use the email to introduce them to these other books.

So it's obviously easier to sell another book, or another box set, or another bundle, to someone who's already experienced your work in the first place. They're not coming to you cold to these other books in your catalog. So it's a much warmer sort of introduction to these other books that you have for sale.

They've obviously got a good sense of what your work is like, they enjoy your work, and they want to read more of your work. The email marketing will help do that in a very effective way.

Joanna: Yes, my email list is growing so much faster than it did do for a long time. That is really interesting.

The other thing is, I kind of think of the Meta algorithm now as a little engine that's learning who markets those books for me. Again, when you start doing this, as with anything, whether you're sending traffic to Amazon or anything, you have to allow a period of time for it to adjust.

It's going to put your ad up in front of a load of people, and a lot of them won't click at all, some might click and not convert, and then this is learning.

It feels like the snowball does get bigger and bigger, even though we've kept the spend pretty similar. We haven't changed the spend, but I feel like some mornings I wake up and there's just all these sales. It's like, what just happened?

Okay, so let's just talk about the downside. So we use the AI images, I don't know if you've seen this because I look at the comments, but—

People have been saying, “Oh, you've got AI images. Does that mean your books are AI?”

Do you get that with Lori's?

Matthew: We haven't yet, actually. No. That's actually interesting to hear that. No, we've never had anything like that on Lori's ads.

Joanna: I've started to get a few, but it is interesting. Some of them I delete because they're just offensive, but some of them I'll comment back and say, “I wrote this a decade ago. These are the first books in a 13-book series. So no, they're not by AI.”

Some of them I'll just joke and say, “Yes, I want Gal Gadot to play Morgan Sierra,” or whatever. So that's interesting. I think the print sales are interesting because I feel like with Amazon, getting print fiction sales is actually a lot harder than it seems to be.

Matthew: We're selling a lot more direct with Lori's store than we ever did on Amazon. We're also selling more bundles, which is $70 for five books on the store. We're selling more of those than individual books on Amazon.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. And just so people know—you're using Bookvault as well, aren't you?

Matthew: Yes, we are.

Joanna: So we get a lot more profit selling print books when we sell direct. I mean, it's crazy.

I think the other thing is indies are so used to the very little money you make on print on Amazon compared to the amount you can make on print when you're using Bookvault through Shopify or one of their other integrations.

Suddenly, print becomes a much more important part of the business.

Matthew: It does very much. Also, it's going to depend a bit on your audience and who you write for. A lot of Lori's audience, for example, are 60+. Not all of them, but a lot of them, like to have physical books in their hand.

Whereas there'll be some genres that attract a much younger audience, and they will devour books on their Kindle or their e-reader of choice, much more than buying a print book.

They want instant access to it. They want to read five or ten books a week, which they can't do when you're waiting for print books to be printed and delivered.

Joanna: No, exactly. It's a totally different audience. They're also, presumably, not so price sensitive, because as you say, people are dropping like $90 on 12 books from an author they've never heard of.

Matthew: Yes, exactly.

Joanna: I'm like, how did that happen? Well, I say that, and then I'll spend that much on some cat toy I see on Instagram. Then that, like you say, becomes an impulse purchase.

I feel like sometimes we forget that people who love books will just buy books on impulse, you know. We go to a bookstore and do that, right? So yes, I think that's different.

I guess one of the other things as we think about the way AI is developing, is what else do you think is going to get better and get easier for us?

As AI is developing, what else will we be able to outsource? What else are you looking at or investigating?

Matthew: The other thing we're using AI for at the moment is writing the actual copy of the ads themselves. So I'm not using the copy straight from AI as it is, I am editing and tweaking quite a bit.

For example, like the headlines in the ads and the primary text in the ads, that's something we're using AI just to help us create some different options for our ad copy.

I'm also using it to track different desires and different segments of readers, and I'm using something like Claude to do that for me, to write copy for a particular market awareness or a particular market sophistication. That's something I'm doing a lot with at the moment.

Also inside of Meta when you're creating your ads, if you put in some primary text, they will have some AI-generated primary text that you could use as well. I haven't used them yet, but they look pretty good.

You put in a piece of primary text and it will give you some other options that its AI engine has written for you based on that piece of primary text. You can then use that or you can tweak and then add it into your ad as well.

Also, video is becoming pretty big now. So it was recently, you will know more about this than me, Jo, but was it—

Joanna: Sora.

Matthew: Sora, wasn't it? Yes. So that's like a text-to-video tool, I believe. I haven't looked into it yet, but that's something that I think will be very powerful. I've been looking at all the examples I've seen on X about it and there's lots of amazing possibilities you can do with that.

So I mean, I think there really is no limit apart from your imagination with these AI tools of what is actually possible. I think it's just going to get better and better, but at the moment, that's what we're really using it for.

Joanna: I totally agree. That's why I wanted you to come on, is to really encourage people. If you're like me, and sort of just didn't want to get involved at all with ads, there's just more and more opportunities for AI to do some of this marketing.

So this isn't about Facebook, but in 2023, I was paying someone to manage my Amazon ads. I only do them for nonfiction now, but I have them running just the auto ads. So there might come a point where that's what we're able to do on Meta and as well.

You don't do this as a service, but what you do is teach people how to do it themselves.

Tell us about your new course, The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors, and also a bit about your Facebook ads stuff.

Just tell people a bit more about it so they might know if they're interested.

Matthew: Yes, sure. Thank you. So the Facebook ads course, which is the one that's been around for the longest now, that is really just sharing my strategy on Facebook ads.

We dive into the basics of setting up your Facebook ads account, and then moving into creating ads that stop the scroll and ads that really speak to your ideal readers.

There's going to be a new module coming in the next few months. I'm going to be diving into my research process of how I actually create ads and really understanding the reader. It'll include all my different tools and strategies for identifying what readers are looking for in a book and particular types of book that you're advertising.

So I'm really going through that now. I have a Facebook ads coach I work with that really helps me understand all this in a lot more detail and really understand the market awareness and market sophistication. So that's been really beneficial. It's really helping me craft better ads.

So then it walks through the actual setting up of the ads themselves in the Facebook ads dashboard, and creating the campaigns and the ad sets and the ads, and then also what to look for when you're deciding is this a good ad or is this a bad ad.

It helps in making much more informed and confident decisions in which ad you keep running, which ones you turn off, which ones you make iterations of, which ones do you make variations of, and then also how to scale up your ads when you're in a position to do so.

It helps with what metrics to look for to know when it's time to scale up, and how to track everything so you have all the numbers that you need to make those decisions.

There's quite a few authors that are obviously still selling on Amazon and using their ads to drive traffic to sell the books on Amazon, but there's also quite a few authors now that are selling direct and want to know more about how to use Facebook ads or Meta ads to sell direct on their own stores.

So we cover a bit of that in there as well, in terms of the strategy and how it differs very slightly for selling direct versus sending to a retailer. So that's the Facebook ads course. I should probably rename that to Meta ads.

As part of that course, as well, there's also a Facebook group. So there's lots and lots of people in there that will help you answer questions and give feedback on your ads.

I'm in there as well, answering questions or giving feedback, and just helping people out to really support them in their own journey with ads, their Facebook ads.

Yes, the course lays out everything for you, but you can come across issues that are a little bit more specific to you. You might want support on that. I don't want to leave you on your own stranded on top of a hill with no way to get any help or any assistance.

So that's why the Facebook group is there, to help you with all of that. Then if you want to get some feedback on your ads, or on your blurb, or on your headlines, your images, etc, that's going to be done through the Facebook group.

Then leading on from that is that there's The Direct Sales Blueprint for Authors course. Which when this goes out, it will be live and available to sign up for.

In that course, yes, we have a module in there on Facebook ads for direct sales specifically, but that's just one module. The rest of the course is all about getting your store set up. So the minimum viable store that you need to really get going in direct sales.

We walk through how to set up a Shopify account, how to set up your email marketing, how to create product pages, how to create a theme, how to optimize your sales pages, how to create offers, and how to build your email list, and how to scale up your store.

So there's lots of lots of detail in there about really running a direct sales store for your books. It is specifically about books and how to get eBooks into your store, the different options there.

It covers how to integrate a company like Bookvault to print your print books on demand and get them shipped off to your customers all without you having to do anything. It all happens in the background automatically. So we'll show you how to integrate all of that.

So it's really the blueprint for just getting everything set up for your direct sales store. It can be another income stream for you, or it could be your main income stream. It could just be a supplementary income stream for you if you want it to be, or it could be your main thing.

So there's no right or wrong way to do it here, but direct sales is a really powerful platform. We're really enjoying it ourselves. It's made a big difference to Lori's business and also to enable the relationship she has with her readers as well.

It's been a big, big change that we've never had before. We've never experienced it before with Amazon.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. Everyone knows I've done quite a lot of shows now on selling direct, and I really appreciate your approach, and also that you are taking advantage of the AI tools.

Authors who don't want to use AI for writing, no worries, but you can use it for marketing. So I love that you take advantage of that. You also have an email newsletter which gives people quite a lot of tips and things.

Tell people where they can find your newsletter, and the courses, and everything you and Lori do online.

Matthew: Sure. Thank you. Yes, so I have a free daily-ish newsletter. It goes out three or four days a week. In that, I just share tips on sometimes it's Facebook ads, sometimes it's direct sales, sometimes it's more about the mindset about running an author business.

It's just really everything I've learned in the past and everything I'm learning right now about running an author business, and in particular, Lori's author business.

When you sign up for that, you also get access to the Facebook Ads for Authors Masterclass. It's a seven or eight lesson video course, completely free, that just walks you through my strategy for Facebook ads.

It will show you how to get everything set up and show you some winning Facebook ad examples. It'll just really help get you started on getting going with your Facebook ads if you're coming to them fresh, or your Facebook ads, like us, just crashed and burned and you don't know where to turn.

This course will just lay out everything that I've learned the hard way and get you going again with your Facebook ads.

I've had plenty of authors come through that course who haven't even bought my paid course, but they've seen a massive transformation in their Facebook ads performance, just through what I'm sharing in that free course. So that's completely free when you sign up for the newsletter.

Then Lori's books are at LoriHolmesBooks.com. That's where you can see her store. They're also on Amazon, and they're on the other retailers such as Kobo and Barnes and Noble. But primarily, we're really focused on the direct sale store.

Joanna: I don't think you gave the URL for your newsletter.

Matthew: I didn't, you're right. It's MatthewJHolmes.com. That's where you go for the newsletter and for my free Facebook ads course.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Matt. That was great.

Matthew: Thank you so much, Jo. It's been a pleasure to be here. Thank you.

The post Tips For Selling And Marketing Direct Using Meta Ads With Matthew J Holmes first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you use insights from the Enneagram to help you with a sustainable author career? How can you get past your blocks and move towards success, whatever that means for you? Claire Taylor provides her insights.

In the intro, will TikTok be banned in the USA, and how will this impact authors and publishing? [TechCrunch; Kathleen Schmidt]; Hugh Howey on the Tim Ferriss show; I, Cyborg: Using Co-Intelligence [Ethan Mollick]; Using AI in award-winning writing [Smithsonian Mag; Editor and Publisher];

Plus, I'm now an award-winning author for Pilgrimage! [Pics on Instagram, Buy the book from me, or on other stores]; Spear of Destiny, Unstuck with Rachael Herron; I'm interviewed on the Casual Author Podcast, and Cops and Writers.

Today's show is sponsored by Draft2Digital, self-publishing with support, where you can get free formatting, free distribution to multiple stores, and a host of other benefits. Just go to www.draft2digital to get started.

Claire Taylor writes comedy fiction, science fiction, paranormal cozy mystery, and serial killer crime, with more than 40 books under various pen names. She also teaches authors through courses, consulting, and her books for writers, which include Reclaim Your Author Career, and her new book, Sustain Your Author Career.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• What is the Enneagram is and how can it help authors
• Differentiating questions to determine your Enneagram type
• Dealing with the unhealthy sides of your Enneagram type
• Overcoming blocks that authors may face
• Navigating changes in the (ever-changing) indie author industry
• Building resilience to sustain a long-term author career

You can find Claire at FFS.media, and Sustain your Author Career here on Kickstarter.

Transcript of Interview with Claire Taylor

Joanna: Claire Taylor writes comedy fiction, science fiction, paranormal cozy mystery, and serial killer crime, with more than 40 books under various pen names.

She also teaches authors through courses, consulting, and her books for writers, which include Reclaim Your Author Career, and the new book, Sustain Your Author Career. So welcome to the show, Claire.

Claire: Hi, thank you so much for having me.

Joanna: There's lots to talk about today, but first up—

Tell us a bit more about you and how you got into writing and publishing.

Claire: Well, I was one of those people who wanted to be a writer since I was like 10 years old. Then I had just years of people telling me that was unrealistic. So that was fun.

Luckily, I'm a little bit bullheaded. So I decided I was going to keep writing anyway and studied it in college. All of my professors basically frowned upon the kind of writing that I wanted to do, so I was trying to figure out, well, how am I going to do this anyway?

Then I joined a critique group after college. That's where I met Alyssa Archer, who introduced me to all of the options that are included in publishing independently. I knew immediately that's what I wanted to do.

So I skipped all the querying and just started learning the skills of self-publishing, and it's basically just been from there. I like being a one woman show and being able to call the shots. So I never looked back once I went indie.

Joanna: Just give people a date then. When did you start self-publishing?

Claire: Well, I did like a semi-self-publishing thing, one of those hybrid borderline rip off kind of things in like 2012. Then in 2014, I started publishing my own stuff through KDP.

Joanna: You mentioned that you're a bit bullheaded and like to be in control. I've been wondering about this, because I feel like I'm similar, and—

Do you think that there is a personality type who does well as an indie author, or can anyone be successful in this industry?

Claire: I think anyone can find something that really resonates with them in this industry.

I think as far as the perspective I come from with all of my training, every personality type, every positive healthy quality we have, can be overdone and work against us.

So it's really about finding out the way that you want to go about this indie publishing business and making sure that you're not overdoing it.

Joanna: Yes, I do wonder, though, because people email me now, and they say, “Oh, it seems like a lot of work.” I'm like, yes, it's work to do this career. If you don't want to do the work of publishing, then you need a publisher, like a traditional publisher.

Claire: Yes, so I would say that if you don't want to do work, this is probably not the path for you. If you don't want to do a whole lot of work, maybe just publish it as a blog or something like that.

I mean, I love a good challenge. So I love teaching myself new skills, I find that very engaging. So I think that is probably a necessary thing. Also, I think it's not just the person, I think it's the time of life where you're approaching this.

Maybe you were a person who had a lot of energy to do this and that might have been the right time, and now with just the situation of your life, you're like, I just don't care to do this much work anymore. Then maybe it's time to switch.

Joanna: Interesting. Okay, so you're well known in the author community for your work around the Enneagram and how that helps writers. So for anyone who doesn't know—

Can you outline what the Enneagram is and how it can help authors?

Claire: Of course. So the Enneagram, it's a personality system that describes nine core fears and desires. So we classify those as types or sometimes a lens, or sometimes we call it an Enneagram style.

Each type is defined by what it fears and desires most.

So those fears are very deep things, like being bad or corrupt, or lacking value, or being trapped in deprivation. They're not like a fear of snakes, that sort of thing.

What arises from our core fear are these patterns of thinking, feeling, and doing that we can get very, very stuck in. So it's like having these blinders on before we start doing this work. So those blinders really limit our options.

In our industry, we have a crisis of people being stuck and trapped because they've limited their options. Their subconscious mind has limited their options because of the patterns that it's functioning in as a default.

So they can't always see an aligned path forward when the industry undergoes swift changes, which it does very frequently. So I can give you an example.

If you're an author who's what we call a type three, this is the achiever, then your core fear is lacking value or being worthless, and pretty much everything you do is to avoid confronting this fear or feeling like you lack value or are worthless, if you're three.

A pattern that almost always arises from this is the belief that they earn value through accomplishments and achievements. This can look like how many books they have in their catalog, how high their books rank after launch, and how many subscribers they have on their email list.

So it all seems well and good to attach your sense of worth to those things when they're going well for you, but everyone who has been in this industry for a little while sees that all of those numeric indicators are becoming more difficult to come by.

The result is that we have a bunch of Enneagram three authors whose self-worth is being eroded because they've attached it to something fleeting. So they may be trapped in that pattern, and they may not see another way of being because it's kind of the water they swim in.

The Enneagram is a roadmap for many, many other ways of being and how we can be the healthiest and most sustainable version of ourselves.

Joanna: I like the idea of the lens because I think that's important. Obviously, we're both friends with Becca Syme and that Clifton Strengths side of things. I also like the Myers Briggs. All of these are different elements of personality, and they can all help in different ways.

So it's funny because people did recommend to me your work and the Enneagram, and I didn't go anywhere near it. I just didn't have time to look at it.

Then when we arranged this interview, I'm like, okay, I need to read your books. So I've read both of these books now. So we're going to do a bit of diagnosis for the listeners. I'm going to get some free consulting on the show.

I was reading it, and like you mentioned there, this achiever, the type three, and I'm like, yes, that's me. I just work really hard. I'm goal orientated. Some of the things you said weren't necessarily true, but I do have on my wall, “Measure your life by what you create.”

I'm quite fixated on making and creating things, and work is my worth. I definitely am questioning this in the age of AI, you know, if a machine can generate stuff, what does that make me? So I'm definitely going through that.

Then our mutual friend Becca Syme said that she thinks I'm a five, which is more about curiosity. I was like, oh, my goodness, that's totally me too.

I'm sure this will happen to other people, like if they read your book, they'll be like, “Oh, but that's me, and that's me, and that's me.”

How do we work out which Enneagram type we are?

Maybe we can work out what I am together?

Claire: Okay. Yes, definitely. So it is a thing that a lot of people run into because we often haven't thought of ourselves and sorted it into these sorts of terms before. So it can take a little bit of time, and there's value in that discovery process.

If you're going between a couple, and you're like, “I don't know if I'm this or this, they both seem really common,” then there are some different differentiating questions that we can refer to.

So it's kind of like, okay, if you answered more this way, then you're probably going to want to read a little bit more about this type versus if you answer a little more this way. So it's very useful. There's a process for this.

You can also take a test online, but the tests aren't super accurate, with the exception of the iEQ9, which is one that I can administer and work with you on. That one's about 95% accurate on type and subtype.

You don't have to take a test though, you can read about it. So if you're looking between a three and a five, there's going to be some major differences and a lot of overlap. This is why we always want to go back and look at those core motivations rather than the behaviors.

If you're looking at someone who's like a real high achiever, they're not necessarily an achiever. They could be, but maybe they're a high achiever because they actually think that good people are hard workers, and they want to be a good person. In that case, they're probably an Enneagram one.

So we want to make sure that we're not looking too much at behavior. So if you're ready, I can ask you some differentiating questions.

Joanna: Yes.

Claire: Okay.

Do you find that your sense of competence is more about the results of your efforts and what you can achieve, or more about what you know?

Joanna: Oh, this is hard because I turn everything I know into a book.

I love, love, love research. I am so deep in research right now for my next novel, Spear of Destiny. I've read all these books on the Nazis, and the occult, and all this.

I consider it the way to turn my curiosity into something. So the process is I guess why I do it. This is why I love it, but then I need to turn it into something in order to say like the process is finished. Isn't that right down the middle?

Claire: That's pretty close down the middle.

Do you use the books as an excuse to validate what you want to learn about?

Joanna: I think it's the other way around.

For example, I'll go to a place, like I went to Amsterdam one time. I had an amazing time, I went to all these cool places, found out all this stuff, and then said I need to write a book about it.

The curiosity definitely comes first, and I use that to drive the outcome. I think then it gives me an excuse to spend more time on it.

Claire: Okay, so let me go to the next question. So the five is in the thinking triad. The three is in the heart triad, so that's the emotion.

Joanna: I'm thinking. I'm definitely thinking.

Claire: Okay, all right. So, now the three doesn't look a whole lot like a feeling type because it's what's called the contradicted type of the triad. So threes can put their feelings aside to get things done, but they can also kind of access those feelings from time to time.

Now, the five is much more in their head. Probably early in life, and as you're getting older maybe now you've done a lot of work, but the feelings are a little harder to access for the five.

Fives tend to tell you what they think when you ask them how they feel.

Joanna: Oh, yes, that's totally me. Do you know what's so funny with AI? A lot of the stuff I do now with AI, is I'll be like, “Can you help me make this more emotional?”

Claire: Please help me, computer.

Joanna: Okay, I genuinely trust whatever Becca says, so I was like, okay, maybe I'm a five. So yes, I'm definitely more of a thinking type.

Claire: I would say that you might want to look at the five. The five can be very productive as an investigator, it can be this sort of high achieving type. That's a pretty healthy five.

So sometimes fives get stuck in the thinking realm, and they don't remember to necessarily use that knowledge that they've gained. So they gain a bunch of knowledge for this sort of sense of security of like, okay, I know how to do the things, I'm capable, I'm competent. That's the core desire of the five.

As the five has these healthy expressions, it starts to take on some of the qualities of the type eight, which is the challenger. So that's more of the doing energy. The challengers are in the body or gut triad, so that's the action triad. They are going out and doing things. So the five tends to actually use that knowledge and expertise.

Joanna: Okay, so that sounds good. I'm going to read more about that.

Then I guess we have to be very clear that there's some dark sides. I mean, you mentioned fear and desires, and these things can be not so healthy. So just give it to me, like—

What are the unhealthy sides of a five that I might be struggling with?

Claire: Okay, yes. So Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson have this measurement, they call it the levels of development, for each type. So each of the nine types has nine levels of development. Three are healthy, three are average, and three are unhealthy. So it's kind of the sliding scale.

Now the healthiest level is called liberation, and people like to learn about what their liberation looks like. That's when we've integrated the truth, we already feel like we are the thing we've been seeking. So our core fear feels unimportant, and our core desire feels fulfilled.

No one spends that much time in liberation, so nobody freak out. But that's the part that we like to learn about because it's like, oh, look, it's our higher self.

We spend most of our time at the average levels. So that's where we can get in our own way about some things, and we're not necessarily living for a higher ideal, but the things that we're doing aren't immediately harmful.

Then we get down into those unhealthy levels and things get very dicey. So the unhealthy levels are the ones that people tend to create these boundaries around of like, that's not me, and that will never be me.

So when we do the shadow work, we want to accept that that could be you, and in accepting that, we really lessen the likelihood that it will be. So these unhealthy levels, it's where we start to not just kind of get in our own way, but we start to create harm.

We harm ourselves and others, and we don't have the tools of self-awareness to actually get out of them sometimes. So we can get trapped in these lower levels, and that's where we spiral.

For a five, this can look a little bit like hoarding. The need for security and the need for gathering resources can get a little out of control.

Joanna: I'm laughing because you can't see. We're not on video. You can't see my office. I have so many books. We have a rule between my husband and I that spending money on books doesn't count.

I mentioned the research with Spear of Destiny, I mean, I kid you not, I have so many books. What I also do is hoard books for future projects, and a lot of them are hard backs, a lot of them are expensive, beautiful books.

I literally pile them up around me. Here in my office right now I am surrounded by piles and piles of books that contain knowledge that I need to learn to turn into books.

I think the word hoarding made me laugh because I think books are an acceptable form of hoarding for writers, I suppose.

Claire: You're absolutely welcome to tell yourself that!

Joanna: So maybe some people listening are like, okay, hoarding. It's an interesting word.

Claire: Yes, I mean, so it's sort of fortifying this fortress of knowledge to keep ourselves safe. That's what can happen with the five, and that's pretty average five.

Most fives I know have an extensive library, especially author fives. I mean, the rule about how it doesn't count if you're buying books, you can just buy as many books as you want, that's very common.

Joanna: That's good. I feel I feel better. I guess I'm thinking, I know sometimes, I'll admit it—

I can be a bit of a know it all. Is that a bad side of it?

I try not to be, but sometimes I want to prove that I know all this stuff.

Claire: I would say that's a pretty average expression of a five. The average expressions are kind of things that we're like, yes, I know that about myself, and I try not to, but it just kind of happens. There are things that people may note about us, but may not be like deal breakers for friendship and that sort of thing.

Joanna: What else is in the shadow?

Claire: So the five tends to go into, “I have to know things other people don't.” So the dark side of five can be almost trollish behavior.

So sometimes the five will, because they've become so detached from their own heart center, they will try to needle people to get the other person emotional, almost like to torment them. So that can be the trolling, right?

This is very dark stuff. It can be if someone is giving some heartfelt thing online, and they use the wrong version of “your,” the response just being the asterisk and then the correct spelling of “your.” That would be sort of an unhealthy behavior of a five.

Joanna: Okay, I definitely don't do that, mainly because I'm not on social media. I do feel myself in my head sometimes, I might think things like that. So yes, I can see that.

Claire: Yes, so the five moves towards isolation, because the five can feel like, okay, I have this limited amount of energy, and if I let too many people in, they're going to just completely drain me of all of this energy.

So that sort of awareness of the battery of the five can lead to the five building a lot of obstacles between them and the outside world, so the outside world can't encroach on their energy.

Joanna: I put that down to being an introvert. Do you think that's like a double whammy?

Claire: I think it might be a double whammy. I think that might be a multiplier. I mean, you're going to have the boundaries, but the five is really aware of it, and so that can turn into that isolation.

Over time, the five can build a fortress around them if they're unhealthy. The stereotype would be like the person living in their mother's basement on the computer all the time. Which I don't think you're in jeopardy of becoming, but there's probably a part of you that can kind of relate to that isolation.

Joanna: I might be happier in the basement, not at my mum's though, I must say!

I mean, obviously people listening might not be a five. So we should just say that in both the books, in Reclaim Your Author Career and Sustain Your Author Career—

You talk about all these types in both of the books.

Claire: Yes, yes. So I talk a lot more about defining them in Reclaim Your Author Career. I do have a section on it in Sustain Your Author Career.

It's okay if you're coming into Sustain Your Author Career and you're not 100% sure of your type. There's still something that you can get out of it.

Thankfully, we can read books more than once. So you can read it saying, well, what if I'm a four, and then over the course of reading it, there may be information there that I described about the four that you're like, I just don't think this is it. That's okay.

So this discovery process can take a really long time for some people, but it doesn't have to. If you're getting frustrated, and you just want to know your type, you can come talk to me and I can help you get there.

So I do talk about the types. There's a lot of information throughout the book of, you know, this is what resilience might look like for each type. This is the problems that you're going to run into for each type.

I have these concepts in action, where after I discuss a concept, I'll give an example of someone I was working with, very well disguised. Don't worry, guys, I keep your keep your identity safe. I give examples of a specific type dealing with that issue.

So you can see, oh, is that kind of like me? Is that not like me? So there's a lot of, is this like me, is this not like me, that you can do with the book.

Joanna: Well, just being practical then about how people turn this knowledge into useful information. I mean, like in Sustain Your Author Career, you do have these types of blocks that authors might face.

Maybe you could outline some of the most common blocks that you see and what authors can do about those.

Because I guess they're also related to the types.

Claire: Yes, definitely. So there are a few blocks that authors face, regardless of their type, that I keep seeing come up again and again in my coaching. So one is that they need to build more rest into their daily routine.

So no one really taught us what rest looks like, which means our idea is kind of this monolithic, like laying on the couch and watching TV. That's almost never restful. That's almost never the kind of rest that you need.

So I try and expand our idea of what rest looks like in the book. It's really about getting into different patterns and figuring out is it my head, my heart or my body, that's tired.

That can really lead us to some new interesting ways of resting and refreshing in small amounts on a daily basis, so that we don't have to take a month off to get over burnout.

Another block that I see coming up a lot is the need for certainty.

So people get a little bit confused around certainty because, oftentimes, they're waiting to have certainty in the outcome before they take the action.

So we can never have certainty in an outcome. So sometimes the information we need can only be found by taking the action, by running the experiment, by testing the ads.

We can't learn everything ahead of time and be like, okay, then this is guaranteed to succeed.

There's some action that needs to be involved before we start to have, not certainty, but confidence that we can figure it out. So that shift from certainty to self-assurance is a way to get past the block.

As far as like an Enneagram-specific block, one that I include is this over labeling that we tend to do. So each type tends to attach two particular labels to everything.

So this is a subconscious pattern, and we're just not aware that we're doing it most of the time. So our subconscious filters things for us. Then if it passes the subconscious filter, our conscious mind might become aware of it.

So you may not know that this is happening, but a lot of the times when I'm interviewing people and working with people, I can hear these labels come through in their language.

For example, if you are an Enneagram one, this is the reformer. This is a person who's concerned about being a good person and doing everything right. So they start to slap on labels of right and wrong to everything.

They're over labeling things as, “This is the right way to do it. This is the wrong way to do it.” It can even be right in sort of an ethical sense, wrong in an ethical sense. Their subconscious is painting with this really broad brush too.

So the reformer ends up ruling out a lot of potentially useful options for their career without even recognizing it. So they go, “Oh, this is wrong, so I'm not going to do this. This kind of thing is wrong.”

A lot of times there's a sort of knee-jerk ick with the ones when it comes to marketing and marketing options. So we want to dive in and just hold these things up and say, is this actually wrong? Or is there a way that you could do it that felt good to you? So we stop painting with a broad brush.

Now for a three, the labels are success and failure. For the seven, the labels are pleasurable or painful. So each type has these labels to look through and say, am I attaching these labels to things where they just frankly don't belong?

Joanna: You have to say the five now.

Claire: The five is wise and foolish.

Joanna: Oh, okay. Yes, and foolish not being the word, stupid would be the word.

Claire: Right, yes. Would a smart person do this or what a dumb person do this? That's kind of the label.

Joanna: It's so funny, isn't it? Labeling is a difficult problem, when you label something, as you say, almost without knowing that you're labeling it, but then you recognize it later. So yes, I think both your books definitely have this insight that's fascinating.

Is it easier to see these things in other people than it is in yourself?

Claire: Oh, absolutely.

Joanna: Wait, you have to tell us what you are.

Claire: I am a one. So I am the reformer. I was over labeling things as right and wrong too much, and it really narrowed my options. I mean, I think that's why this is like the biggest secret weapon of the book, this over labeling, because I was doing that so much.

Then when I realized that, like, “Oh, gee, Claire. Maybe there's not a morally right or wrong way to do most things in this business.” It was like the clouds parted and the angels were singing down to me like, “Oh, you have options. Congratulations.”

So, yes, there's plenty of things that just are perfectly reasonable options and they don't conflict with my morals, but I had experienced this sort of ick around them.

Ones really have this gut sense of like, I don't like that. So I had experienced that and written off a bunch of stuff, and now kind of going back and be like, well, is there a way that I can do this that is perfectly fine and works morally and ethically for me? And the answer is almost always yes.

Joanna: That's good to know. So coming to this, because I think the labeling might help, in Reclaim Your Author Career, you say,

“As the indie publishing industry matures, the cracks begin to show.”

I was like, yes, that's totally it. I've talked about the splintering of business models, and also the splintering of the community.

Now, it's happened many times since I started here in like 2007 when I started self-publishing. I mean, there's been a lot of splintering. I like your phrase, “The cracks begin to show.” So what do you mean by that?

How can authors navigate these changes and this need for certainty?

Claire: I certainly agree with your assessment of the cracks that are showing. On top of that, from what I do and my perspective, I think we've had really unreasonable expectations of this career as a collective.

So those expectations are very slow to catch up to the reality. So some of the beliefs that were proliferated were just out of touch and really played on the desperation of a bunch of people trying to make writing work as a profession.

There's this hope and this desperation to get there, and these ideas were sort of these false promises that we saw some examples of happening. Like, oh, yes, there's a few people who did these things and followed these ideas and had this success, the sort of nebulous dream of being an indie author.

So like, the idea that there was a silver bullet, right? If you just start doing Amazon ads, your books will take off. Or TikTok, that's your ticket to the big time.

These silver bullets, we're starting to see, I think more collectively, that they don't exist.

There's also that belief that if you do X tactic, then Y sales are guaranteed, and if it didn't work that way, that was because you didn't do something right. So those beliefs aren't really built on any solid foundation, and now I think the cracks are showing with them.

I think we're starting to see that they aren't true, and they probably never were true.

We're seeing people burnt out as a result of that. People's frustration with their own lack of sales, it's more morphing into these moral panics in the industry.

So much of that intensity can be calmed simply by turning our attention to the basics of what we can and can't control.

So you can control what you do, and you can't control the results of it, including how other people feel about what you do.

It's a very basic concept, but I think we kind of got outside of that wisdom when we started thinking that certain actions in this industry would lead to certain results, and that if it didn't happen, something was just not right about it, rather than the assumption was faulty.

So I think that a lot of that basic wisdom was being drowned out by the sort of six-, seven-figure author razzle dazzle. Like if there was a way to guarantee that your formula resulted in authors making six figures a year, then every author would be making six figures a year.

So I just think as an industry, the promises and the expectations that were these givens or these accepted beliefs, by and large, are just being proven false. We're seeing the fallout of it through the negative emotions that are resulting from it.

So those cracks are starting to show in those beliefs. The people who are going to stay on and stay in this game are the ones who are adjusting to the reality.

Joanna: I was just thinking then about the Japanese art of kintsugi, where they fix broken pottery with gold and silver. I would love that to be our community. I feel quite sad, having attracted quite a lot of negativity myself, and some other people in the community.

I just wish we were just this healthy, happy, creative community. Is that just unrealistic? I mean—

How can we mend these cracks and make it something beautiful?

Claire: Well, I think that might be an unrealistic goal, but I think it's a perfectly fine purpose.

Joanna: I think I should just hang onto that.

Claire: Well, you know, a purpose is just something we move toward each day. It's this ideal, and we don't get frustrated when we're not there, but we can commit ourselves to making it a little bit more like that.

I think that if enough people are doing that, then we can make progress, and we can at least create a space where the people who do want to be part of that sort of vibrant, nurturing community have a place to come. Then the people who don't want to be a part of that can go be disgruntled elsewhere.

I really think that the upheaval of our industry, which this industry is kind of one upheaval after another. You kind of ride the waves and learn to surf.

It's an opportunity for us to really get serious and look at ourselves and build the sustainable author, who then will build a sustainable author career. So I think that that metaphor used of the gold filling in the cracks, that really is it.

Like we have an opportunity to fill in these cracks of, not just our author career, but who we are as humans, and to heal these parts of ourselves that have been sort of thrown into the light in this environment. That's really, I think, what keeps me going.

I know that some of the stuff in my new book is a little bit iconoclastic. So I know I'll get some heat.

But for every person who is mad at me, there's a lot of people who are falling back in love with their writing, connecting with it again, letting it nourish them after this work, and watching the benefits of it expand into their life as a whole. That seems like it's worth the time for me.

Joanna: Well, it's interesting, because I referenced your book in my book, Writing the Shadow, because so many people said it was a good way to look into the shadow work. I felt when I put that book out, oh, my goodness, I'm going to get some response to this.

It's interesting, and I think the same with your books, is —

The people who read these types of books are looking to do the deeper work around their personality and their lifestyle and build resilience —

and all that kind of thing. I don't think they're the ones who react so negatively.

So it's been positive response to Writing the Shadow. The people who do read it, think about it, even if it does trigger them in some way. Just as your book certainly could as well. So I want to encourage you there. It might not be so bad.

Claire: Yes, I've been very lucky to have most of the people who have a strong reaction just kind of show themselves out.

Joanna: You mean, as in they're not talking to you any more, they're not buying your books, but they've just left the building?

Claire: They've left the building, they keep their trash talk to back channels that I never see. That's blissful for me.

I was just thinking about this recently. It's so amazing when we do this work, when we ask people to look at themselves honestly, and share honestly, and be this like authentic version of themselves, and when we show them that that is okay, all of the parts of them are okay, like I've ended up surrounded by these amazing human beings, where I'm like, wow.

You know, people come to being an author a lot of the times after they've lived these full lives doing completely different things. Then you get to meet them, and you're just like, wait, you did what?

They're just so insightful and wise. It's really amazing. So it does make me nervous. I would be lying if I didn't say that I get a little anxiety every time I publish something, but, man, it's added so much to my life being able to meet so many people.

Joanna: Yes, it's worth doing, for sure.

So you've mentioned resilience a few times. I guess I've always talked about the long-term game and always thought ahead. I'm a futurist type person. So I've always mentioned that.

I've definitely always been fascinated by authors who are still publishing decades after they started because they have something and they've survived all the changes and all of that. So—

How can authors build resilience in order to sustain their author career for the long term?

Claire: I think the biggest tool for resilience is recognizing that we're already resilient, that we've already done the hard things.

We tend to dismiss the challenges that we've overcome almost as soon as we overcome them. Like, well, if I could do it, that obviously wasn't that hard.

I think really taking a moment to look back can help us recognize that we have tools that we haven't been naming. So naming those tools can be really useful.

We tend to carry around a lot of anxiety about like, what if the worst happens? Will I be able to handle it if my book flops? What will I do? How will I be able to live with myself?

So it can be really helpful to remember that we've already had bad things happen to us, and we've found a way forward. Maybe the exact details are different, but if you found a way before, you will find it again. Like there's more evidence for your resilience than there is against it.

So on top of that trick, which can be eye opening in itself, each Enneagram type has this force inside of them that they can fall back on.

So for example, sixes have a huge amount of courage and a sense of duty to the group. That can light them up, if given enough space. They get knocked down, and why did they get back up? Because they have this sense of duty to the group.

They have the most fear of any type, sixes. Due to that, they've built their muscle of courage the most because they know how to act in spite of the fear.

So nines are urged on by the sense of harmony, and they have this gift of perspective. These are healing forces that we have, but they're also really subtle. So learning what they are and how to spot them, that's what gives us a leg up and the confidence that they'll be there when we need them.

So, it's always okay to lick your wounds a little bit. You know, you have a book that fails, get up from the computer, go do whatever you want to get your mind off it, talk to your friends, rage, cry a little, whatever works for you.

Go lick your wounds, that's fine, but the healing process requires a little bit of space to get started, and these forces that we have that get us back up are a little bit quiet.

So knowing what they are and how to name them, and you know, how to recognize them, we can take heart in knowing that they will show up for us. As long as we don't fall irreversibly into self-pity, we'll be fine.

Joanna: Eventually, yes.

As this goes out, you have a Kickstarter for Sustain Your Author Career.

[Click here for Claire's Sustain Your Author Career Kickstarter.]

Tell people what they can find in the book and in the campaign, and hopefully, they'll come over and have a look.

Claire: The Kickstarter runs through March 29th. That includes the book in its various forms. You can also pick up Reclaim Your Author Career through there if you haven't done that yet.

Then I'm offering all of my author services through there at a discounted rate, or the regular rate, but you get a book with it. Some of the stuff is limited seating, so the first place you can get it is through Kickstarter.

That includes any coaching, I have some workshops in there, I have a book club with reflection questions, my Liberated Writer Course is offered through there, that's a five-week course. My Liberated Writer Retreat, which is in October, all of that you can get through there.

So basically, look at the book and say, okay, how much support do I need? Because we are very independent people, by and large indie authors, and we sometimes overlook the step of finding the support we need. We can do anything if we have the support we need for it.

So just kind of understanding like, okay, I'm new to this, I don't have a whole lot of help at home, or my energy is limited, a lot of people I work with are dealing with chronic illness, how much support do you need? Then you can look at the tiers and find what makes sense for you. That's how I've designed it.

Joanna: Fantastic.

Where else can people find you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Claire: Well, so I should say the Kickstarter. If you go to kickffs.com, you will go to the Kickstarter. Then everything else for me can be found at FFS.media. That's all of my other offerings and books, including my fiction.

Joanna: Yes, your fiction. We didn't even talk about that. You have lots of quite unusual types of books, so definitely people should have a look at that. All right. Well, thanks so much for your time, Claire. That was great.

Claire: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

The post Insights On The Enneagram And Sustain Your Author Career With Claire Taylor first appeared on The Creative Penn.

There are more options for publishing and reaching readers than ever before, and the indie author business models are splintering and diverging, so how do we know which path to follow?

How do we deal with the changes due to generative AI, and how do we manage the grief and anxiety about these shifts? Becca Syme gives her perspective.

In the intro, Kobo Plus launches in Ireland and South Africa [KWL]; Authors Equity [Publishing Perspectives]; Selling direct insights [Kindlepreneur]; Claude 3 [Anthropic]; Spear of Destiny.

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. 

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Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Saturation causing a shift in the indie author business model
• The importance of having certainty in your own process
• An ego shift when selling direct
• Deciding on a business path amid uncertainty
• Choosing your ‘hard'
• Adapting the vision of your future in an ever-changing industry
• Finding readers in an evolving publishing industry

You can find Becca at BetterFasterAcademy.com.

Transcript of Interview with Becca Syme

Joanna: Becca Syme is an author, coach, and creator of The Better-Faster Academy. She is a USA Today bestselling author of small-town romance and cozy mystery, and also writes the ‘Dear Writer' series of non-fiction books. So welcome back to the show, Becca.

Becca: Thank you for having me, again. I love being here.

Joanna: Now, you've been on the show a few times. So we're just going to jump into the topics today, as we've got so much to talk about now.

I've really wanted to talk to you about some of the things I'm seeing in the community right now. You're so wise, and I think people need help and guidance. Sometimes I'm just a little bit blunt about stuff, and you have a different manner.

So the first thing I want to talk about is a shift in the business model for indie authors. You and I were both at the last 20Books Vegas, the last ever one. It feels like what used to be one clear path is splintering into all different things.

What changes are you seeing in the indie author business models? How is it affecting the authors you coach?

Becca: The upside, I think, of some of the changes is that we're seeing a real trend away from this expectation of as many books as you can possibly produce — because we've hit the saturation point, basically, everywhere.

There are always going to be these niche genres that pop up that aren't fully saturated yet, but they get to a saturation point pretty quickly. So when the whole of the industry is saturated, that changes the problems that readers have.

So when readers were having a problem in 2012, there just weren't enough books. Like there weren't enough books for them to choose from, and New York sort of kept it that way on purpose, right. They kept the water blue on purpose.

Now that we don't have that problem anymore and readers have different problems, then the way you solve them as a writer is different. So it becomes more and more important to find the people who are going to be your people that you're going to write for and to try to maintain some sense of having people that you are pleasing.

Not that you have to write to market, not that you have to write for anyone but yourself, but we've lost this sense in the industry, I think, of like all you have to do is publish a book and it's going to sell.

By the way, again, I always like to remind people that still wasn't the case, even in the Gold Rush. There still were plenty of books that weren't selling.

We're facing that more now than we ever have because there are so many people who are having the experience of like, “Well, I came in and tried to do this model, and it's not working for me, and so now I have to think of something different.”

The indicators are all there that the problems readers are having are different. So there's no more expectation, in my opinion. It's only grown over the last four or five years that what we're seeing are people who are writing fewer books a year and who are selling more.

The faster and faster and faster you write, you have to know you can produce a product that people want to read if you're going to write that fast. Otherwise, writing that fast is not the way to go.

Joanna: It's funny, I'm actually, as we record this, next week I'm speaking in Seville. I've kind of put a sort of tongue-in-cheek title on one of my slides, which is—“1BookTo50K,” instead of, “20BooksTo50K.” Do you agree with that?

Becca: Oh, yes. I mean, I would say the problems that readers have are always the things that dictate the market, like the way the markets going to function.

When there's too many books in the market—which obviously we're going to talk about that later on in this session as well—but when there's too many books in the market for readers to choose from, they have different problems.

This becomes curation, right? Like, how do I find the books that are going to be the best for me to read?

So putting more and more and more books and just not caring whether they meet reader expectations, not caring whether readers want them or not, that's not the way to solve the problem of curation.

The way to solve the curation problem is to write a better book, and specifically to write a book that people will want to read.

So I really believe that despite all the things that are happening in the industry, that for writers who want to write books, craft is going to become more important.

Storytelling and pacing are going to become more important.

There's going to be this resurgence almost of like, well, okay, now the pendulum has swung all the way to one side, in terms of like just creating anything just to put things out in the market, and we're recognizing that that's just not what readers want from us right now.

Readers want better. They want books that they want to read, and however you personally can produce that is the model. Again, I would argue that has always been the model.

Like the model for, let's say, 20BooksTo50K. For the people who can produce a lot of books, then that was the model. But for people who couldn't, there were still people who were only producing one, two, and three books a year, who were making a living writing, even during the gold rush.

Joanna: Like me!

Becca: Yes, like, it's always been that way. However you can produce a book people want to read is how you should produce it, and not pay attention to what other people are doing.

Again, in an industry that's very competitive, it's hard to have that certainty about your own process. So I guess that's always what I'm hoping that I can do is to help people increase their certainty in their own process.

Joanna: So I guess that's one thing, is the writing a lot of books. Especially, and we'll come back to AI, but there's a lot of ways to produce a lot of books very fast. So we can't compete on being a machine in terms of production.

Another change, I think, is that the focus up until reasonably recently, I guess, was Amazon. Then, of course, there was KU plus ads, that digital-first model.

Then even authors who go wide were focusing very much on retailers in general. It seems like there's also the shift into the selling direct model in different ways.

What are those other business models you're seeing?

Becca: I mean, I would agree with all of those, just in terms of the more reader-focused that we can become. I think the more we can think about how to solve the problems that readers are actually having, the more likely we are to maintain sustainability long-term.

If what readers want is more of your world, then you giving them more of your world via something like Patreon, or doing Kickstarter or something like that, is going to be what will keep them invested in your platform, over choosing to go to other people's platforms.

So there's this element for me of when the world shifts, we can't control what happens in the world, so you can either react to it or not.

When the world shifts, and we move towards that people want curation, people want more good books, people want to go deeper into the things that they really like, they want more community, like those are problems that we can solve for them.

Again, like not everybody's a community builder, I get that, but those are problems that we can solve for them.

Using things that are more personal, that offer more access, that give us more control over the data, that seems to be the pendulum swing that we're in right now.

Joanna: Well, can I just ask you then on the psychology side, because you're really good at this stuff, and there is a big ego shift when you move to selling direct. Like your Kickstarter, Shopify stores, Patreon, Ream, any of this stuff, there is no bestseller list, no one else can see how much money you're making.

In one way it's freeing and in another way, well, no one can see your sales. Like most of my sales are now no longer tracked by any industry metric. They're kind of invisible.

There's this invisibleness of selling direct.

Which on the one hand, as I said, is great, and on the other hand, the ego sort of is blasted by this. A lot of people ask me this, they say, “But you can't hit a bestseller list this way.”

What do you say to people who are like, well, I need to be seen in that way?

Becca: I mean, I do think if you're a person who needs to be seen in that way, and that is genuinely something that you would say, “You know, I've never hit this list before, and I want to hit this list.” I would say it's fine to go ahead and do that.

You just need to know that that is a model that's not necessarily moving forward in the future, especially as a lot of places are starting to get rid of their bestseller lists.

Like we're not 100% sure that the USA Today list is going to last forever. We don't know what's going to happen with the New York Times list in the future. There's so much of that that we don't have control over.

When I coach people individually about this kind of stuff, I'm super clear. Like there are still a lot of people who would benefit from being in trad publishing. There are still a lot of people who would benefit from doing the sort of older model of trying to hit a list because that's something that really is a marker for them, it's something they've always wanted.

Similarly to, you know, talking about other topics that we're going to talk about, there's a level of grief of, well, that industry doesn't exist anymore. Like the industry that we had in 2012 and 2014, or in 2016, that doesn't exist anymore.

So we can either be really frustrated by that and be caught up in this, “but I need it, but I need it,” or—

We can shift into trying to find other ways to meet our ego needs.

Just on a side note, because so much of this psychologically is when it meets an ego need for you, is it actually meeting a beneficial need? Or are you in survival mode when you think about not getting that thing, and you don't realize it?

This is part of why I'm encouraging people to read Claire Taylor's books about the Enneagram because she deals a lot with that subconscious fear that's underneath. Like, what happens if I don't get what I want?

I think a lot of us are caught up in ego stroking that is not coming from, let's say, a strengths place. There are some strengths that do need to be seen as being successful, and that's a beneficial thing because it motivates them and makes them successful.

When it's coming from a place of fear, like I won't be okay if I can't prove to other people how much I'm selling, then that's a really different conversation from like, no, seeing those markers motivates me and helps me to compete with my peers and stuff like that. Those are two super different conversations.

If I'm coaching someone and it's very clear that this doesn't feel beneficial, like this feels like a fear-based thing, I usually will refer them to Claire's book.

Joanna: Well, Claire will be coming on the show soon. I haven't spoken to her yet, but—

Becca: Yay.

Joanna: On that, this is something I have been thinking about. There has been some things happening in the community where I've been then questioning, what if I let this go, this podcast go, and I let go my desire and the status I do get from being visible in the author community?

Sometimes it's very difficult, as you know, because you're in a similar situation. Sometimes I just think, well, could I be just a writer and shut up and stop talking about it and just do it?

I do question, like, is it coming from a place of fear? Like, could I survive that way? Or is it that, actually, I do want to be part of a community, I want to help people.

Actually, this podcast helps more people than my books do.

It's something I struggle with all the time. I mean, how do you deal with that?

Becca: I have similar questions, too. Like, is it coming from a beneficial place for me? Here's how I internalize it, because I know you also have futuristic as one of the Clifton Strengths, right?

I'm constantly imagining my paths forward and then living in that future of like, what would it feel like to exist as a writer, as a novelist, in an industry where I do have so much knowledge about how this works, and I have so much context about what success and failure looks like, and how to help people, could I sit back and watch people struggle?

I'm never going to not be in community with writers if I'm a writer. I'm always going to be at conferences, I'm always going to be talking to people. Could I sit there and watch people struggle and know that I could be helpful and not help? Like, is that possible for me to do?

When I imagine that future, I think, no. Like, I don't think I could do that. But what is it about my current situation that I don't like?

I've been talking a lot lately about building a house that you want to live in, in terms of sustainability.

What I've done in my nonfiction career is I've inadvertently built a house that I can't live in. It takes too much personal connection for me, it takes too much of my time, etc.

So as a futuristic, what I'm trying to do is think about where is the level of energy that I'm willing to give to this business and this industry that is sustainable for me? And then how do I get from where I am now down to that place? That's what I'm navigating currently, and then what I'll do when I get there.

I have some like metrics for my hours per month. How much time do I want to spend coaching? How much time do I want to spend writing? How much time do I want to spend on nonfiction content?

Once I get to those numbers, then I'm going to stop and reevaluate and be like, okay, is this a house I can live in in terms of if I stay in the industry and I'm less visible than I used to be, can I imagine myself forward from that place?

I do feel like the future changes so much from different vantage points. So I may not be able to tell, if I quit completely, if I'm going to be okay 10 years from now, but I can tell better if I minimize what I'm doing. Then I can pause in a year or pause in eight months, and say, okay, now am I okay? Then I'll ask that question differently at the end of 2024.

If I were to say, zero is not possible. Otherwise, I'd have to stop writing if I was going to do zero nonfiction work at this point. So for me, I'm constantly thinking about, if I was doing it this way for the next 10 years solid, would I be able to maintain that? Then that's kind of how I set my expectations.

Joanna: Yes, and I think for both of us, so people listening know, neither of us are going anywhere.

We both feel like we are committed, it's just that there are ups and downs in the process.

It is interesting, this future-casting. As you say, both of us have futuristic in our Clifton Strengths, but a lot of people don't.

I feel like this splintering of the business models—I mean, I get emails every day right now, and I'm sure you do too, where people say, “I've heard that I can't just publish on Amazon and sell a book anymore. So what do I do? Like you're talking about Shopify and Kickstarter, but I don't have an audience.”

Someone talks about Ream, or Patreon, or Substack, or now someone's doing a trade show or whatever. Like, how do people deal with the uncertainty? And it's, like you said, building for 10 years’ time, because that's what I say.

It's like, well, if you started now on whatever path, in 10 years’ time, you're going be somewhere. So which path do you want to do?

I mean, there is no single formula anymore, in terms of self-publishing, or marketing, or any of these things. There are so many choices.

How do people deal with uncertainty around this? How can they choose the path?

Becca: That is a great question. So I have a couple of different answers.

The first is, any person who cannot commit the time or feels just really insecure about doing all of the direct sales and all of the in-person events and things like that, there still are a portion of people who are selling well on the retailers alone.

It's harder to do that. It's much, much harder to get just your ads to deliver and to just sell ebooks only and to make a living doing that, but it's not that no one is doing it. It's just that it's much more difficult than it's ever been before.

So I would say, if you know that that's the only thing that you can handle, then you want to set your expectations for that. You've got to think, well, I have got to do something to make sure that I am pleasing my audience.

Whether that's writing the best book for me, like making me perfectly happy, or writing to market or whatever it is that you're doing —

I have to be willing to take the lumps that come with the path that I choose. There's no lumpless path. There is no silver bullet.

So whatever path I choose, I'm basically choosing the hard that I want to continue to replicate.

So if it's too hard for me to imagine having enough self-confidence to do direct sales, to put myself out at a trade show or something like that, then I'm choosing a different version of hard, but it's still going to be hard.

I've been doing a lot of listening to athletes and actors, just like interviews recently, trying to find these little snippets of conversation about things like luck and timing and hard work and talent. Like how do we balance all of the things that are necessary, and how do we increase resilience?

If what we're expecting is that there's an easy button to hit, or there's an easy path, or a path that will not be difficult, then we should not be doing this job because that is definitely not the case.

I mean, I don't think it was ever the case. I just think there are people who like hard work more than others, and so it seems easier for them because they really enjoy the hard work. For those of us who don't like hard work, we have to know that the path is going to be difficult.

So that's kind of the one thing I want to start off with is there are still people who can sell on retailers only, but then you have to make the decisions that are the best for those retailers.

So if you're going to go into KU, you have to make decisions that align well with KU. If you're going to be wide, you have to make decisions that align well with wide.

You have to find the people who are talking about those strategies, and pick one strategy, and do it.

This is the second thing I would say about the potential choosing of the path. It is so unlikely in this industry that you're going to have success, period. Like, it's just so unlikely that you're going to hit full-time author income that there needs to be some level of resilience in that space.

So if you're going to work until you hit that, that you know that it's possible to not sell, and not sell, and not sell, and not sell, and then sell. So the commitment to just doing whatever it takes to hit that space is what I think is the missing piece for an awful lot of where I'm seeing the industry going right now.

There are a lot of people who came in with the belief that it should be easy because the way that it was often talked about was how easy it was. I just think it's never actually been easy, though.

I think we have to understand how much hard work is going to be involved in it, and we have to be willing to do that if what we want is that outcome.

Of course, and I'm sure Claire will talk about this when she comes on, but not everyone should be shooting for full-time income. That's not what's going to make everyone the happiest, especially because—and I talk about this from a strengths perspective a lot—especially because trying to write full time for some brain wirings is actually not beneficial.

For some people, putting the amount of pressure on yourself where you're tying your stability and security to your creativity is going to make your creativity go away. It's going to become harder and harder to produce, the more difficult the sales become.

So there are a lot of people in this industry who, for reasons of safety and security being the number one goal, need to have at least a part-time job bringing in money so that writing never becomes the thing they rely on to pay their mortgage.

If not, eventually the creativity is going to become inaccessible because the pressure will get to be too big.

That's something we don't talk about a lot because it's not sexy. You're not going to make a class talking about how you shouldn't quit your day job.

The reality is that an awful lot of us will function better in our creativity, and write better books, and make more money, if we don't have to rely on the books to produce our mortgage payments.

Joanna: Yes. I mean, I've always talked about multiple streams of income.

I do make good money from book sales alone, but like you, I have other forms of income. This podcast is one of them. I like having that. It makes me feel more secure.

I love how you talk about choosing the hard you want.

Because I also still see people who are like, “Oh, well, you know, it's easy to self-publish, and that's what makes it like almost worthless. Whereas getting a traditional publishing deal is hard.”

You're completely right, like—

Being a successful indie author is just as hard, just in a different way.

Becca: It's a different kind of hard.

Joanna: Yes, and it's so funny because at the moment some of the emails I get, I'm like, look, I think you should just go and pitch a publisher.

If you're not willing to do the work around reaching readers yourself and you think a publisher will do it for you, then go pitch a publisher.

I mean, do you find yourself saying that now? It's so weird. I haven't done that for a long time.

Becca: Yes, and in fact, I regularly still have coaching calls where I'll say to someone, “I do think trad is a better fit for you.” Especially the people who are not in a place emotionally where they can handle a lot of attention.

As an indie, you have to be your own salesperson. There are a lot of people who cannot do that for themselves because they just don't have the emotional tools for that right now.

I have a Patreon/BeccaSyme where I write blog posts every once in a while, and I'm constantly saying in my Patreon, we need to increase our emotional resilience skills if we're going to remain indie.

There's always going to be pain and difficulty, and you're going to get into fight or flight mode about things.

If you don't have the capacity to regulate yourself, like your own nervous system, then you're not going to survive in this industry because it's so competitive, and it's so painful.

Even in the places where it's like, “Oh my gosh, yes, it's so supportive and we're all talking about how supportive it is,” and by the way, if you have to talk about how supportive it is, I question how supportive it is.

We're constantly having these conversations about like, yes, where there are these supportive corners. And yet, if you're talking just to individual authors, we know how difficult this job is.

People who are trying to get into this job need to understand, like, I have to have emotional resilience, I have to be able to put myself out there in front of people.

That might mean there's a skill that is not being executed in my brain right now that I might have to work on. I might have to reparent myself, so that I can have a better chance at doing well at this job.

There's nothing shameful about that. That is actually really excellent self-management and self-leadership in knowing, you know what, I'm not great with criticism, so I'm going to go work on getting better at criticism because I want to write better books.

Right now, every time my editor sends me feedback, I get triggered so bad, I can't read the feedback and work on the book. I have to put the book away.

Then I'm like, great, let's work on some emotional resilience skills there then, so that you can take that criticism so that you can continue to grow and get better.

That's definitely the key long-term in this industry: emotional resilience and growth.

Joanna: Oh, so much there. Well, talking about resilience then, another big impact right now is the discussions around generative AI.

I mean, you and I have been around this industry a while. We've dealt with some of the big waves of war within the community. I mean, there's been a number of these.

There's also been some kind of real hate at different points around various people's choices. And a lot of, again, splintering. I feel like it's quite a relevant word around people's attitudes around generative AI.

I mean, my listeners are at least AI-curious, or AI-positive. The anti-AI ones have gone away, generally, by now. So we sit in between the thing, but a lot of people are going through a difficult time.

We mentioned grief earlier. I do want to come back to that because I feel like I faced some of these existential questions around AI a year or so ago. I feel like I've been through some of this, and there's a recalibration of what it means to be an author and why we write.

There's this focus on craft and the process, rather than the outcome. Can a machine do this better than us? I mean, these are some big questions.

How do you see people dealing with this change badly, and how do we deal with it well?

Becca: I mean, there is so much grief around this process because, of course, so many of us grew up with these dreams of having a room of one's own and writing full time, right? Like so many of us grew up with these very vivid pictures.

So when we hear about something like AI, and we think about the shift in the market, or even just you hear me talk about saturation in the market, and it's like, oh, there's this piece in my head, that's like, am I going to have this outcome?

I would say, the important thing about this industry is that it goes through changes all the time, and no one is ever 100% correct about what's going to happen.

If you are sort of struggling with this, I would read the book, Same as Ever by Morgan Housel. He goes through these really brilliant examples after examples of the things that change the most are the things that surprise us. It's never the stuff that we are prepared for that is what we really need to practice resilience for.

This is what I would say to people. The changes that we know for sure are coming, in terms of we know there are going to be splinters right in the industry—okay, great—

How do I make myself splinter-resilient? How do I find people around me that are going to be positive forces in my life relationally? How do I make connections with people?

I can't change how other people feel or think on either side of this debate, pro AI or anti AI.

I can't change how people think, and I can't change how people are going to act. The only thing I can change is myself.

So I need to deal very quickly with whatever grief I'm having about whatever picture I had in my head about what the future would look like because the faster I can get to acceptance, and the faster I can recalibrate what my future could now look like, the better for me.

So thinking about the larger industry—not from a Joanna and Becca perspective, but from like an individual author perspective—if I can't affect change in the larger industry, then I have to be willing to deal with whatever happens.

That means I have to increase my ability to do emotionally resilient things. I have to increase my ability to feel successful no matter what happens.

I have to increase my ability to be able to pivot quickly and release the future that I thought was coming, without releasing my hope for the future.

Regardless of what happens in the industry, people are always going to want to read books, people are always going to want to write books. Like people people, not just machines, but people.

So as long as I know that I'm always going to write no matter what happens, even if that means I have to get a day job to support it, even if that means that I have to change my expectations about the future in order to support it, I know I want to keep writing.

Fixating on whether or not I can have this very specific picture of what I think the future should look like, that's only going to make it harder for me to adapt to the industry. It doesn't mean that I have to release any expectation of how I will feel because that's usually what the picture is going to produce for us.

The picture produces freedom, or the picture produces gratitude, or it produces security, and there are other ways to find that other than the very specific picture that I have in my head.

That's what I would say is I want us to all be as quick to accept and pivot as we can, and then as quick to provide ourselves with the needs that we have, rather than waiting for the industry to change back or waiting for the industry to catch up.

Whatever it is that we're feeling, we have to take agency for ourselves and be responsible for our own emotions.

Joanna: Absolutely. It's interesting, I mean, just in terms of practical steps. I mean, I'm an input person as well, so I input a lot on all of this stuff, and even I get overwhelmed sometimes.

So my two things are I get off social media and the internet in general, go for a walk or something, and then also, I write. As in, I create. I find joy in the process of writing.

We are writers. We write, and we love creating, and that's not going to stop.

If the whole world loses their jobs to AI, everyone will be on universal basic income, and we'll still write. I think it's like, okay, this is actually amazing. It could be really amazing. So just thinking about it that way.

I wanted to ask you about social media because we talked earlier about finding the people who are your people, finding readers. A lot of people are having to step off social media right now—

How are people meant to find readers if things are changing so much?

Becca: I would say every avenue that's open to you, I would use it as strategically as possible. So for instance, make sure that it is exceptionally clear how people get on your newsletter in every single book that you publish. Make sure that your funnel is super, super intact.

I'm not talking about the 45 steps of creating a perfect funnel, I literally just mean if someone picks your book up, and they want more from you, is it easy for them to figure out how to get on your mailing list and how to get more from you?

This is maybe the bigger piece for me about longevity and sustainability, is —

We have to be willing to build slowly if that's what it's going to take to have a long-term sustainable career.

It's possible that me getting a BookBub every once in a while, and me running some ads, and me sort of chugging along in my book sales, and then building my newsletter organically, or building my community or my Patreon organically, is going to be the way that I'm going to function the best because it allows me to not be as present on social media, if that's what I need to do.

Then what I want to make sure that I do for myself, again, I need to practice agency with my own feelings and not allow myself to feel preyed upon by whatever is happening in the larger industry. That is where the most unhappiness and ineffectiveness comes from is where I get stuck in a space where I miss the fact that I can choose to do something different.

I can choose to feel different. I can choose to look at different data. I can choose to not be present in some of those groups. I can choose to not listen to some of those people who are creating a lot of fear in me. I have agency over my own story.

That's what I want us to remember. As long as I don't quit, as long as I don't give up, there's always more possibility in the future for me to grow more, to put more books out, to have more readers to make more money. There's always a possibility for that, but I have to be willing to do whatever it takes and not give up.

Joanna: Yes, and it just comes back to what we love about this process.

Like we talked about earlier, you and I back away sometimes, but we come back to this because we really do love it. We love the writing, we love the community. So yes, people listening, we're not going anywhere.

You've mentioned sustainability and resilience a few times, and—

You've got this brilliant digital conference coming up. Tell us a bit about that.

Becca: Yes, we're going to do something a little different in this digital con. We're going to have a couple of days of presentations on the first weekend. It is going to be the second week in May is when we're going to start. Then we're going to give you a week off to go and do some homework. Then we're going to come back for a day and half on the second side.

So the conference dates—and when you see the website, you'll see what I mean—but the conference dates are going to say something different. The goal is we want to give you a chance to put some of this into practice and to go and do some of the analysis, in terms of like my own stability, my own skills.

What am I expecting from myself that I can't continue to produce for forever? How can I build a sustainable business? It is basically the question: how do I build a house that I can live in?

So that's the big question for me in this conference. We call it the QTP Con, The Question The Premise Con. Basically, our goal this year is to talk about building sustainable author businesses.

Joanna: Brilliant.

Where can people find that, and you, and your books, and everything you do online?

Becca: BetterFasterAcademy, all one word. BetterFasterAcademy.com. All of that should be in various places on that front page.

Joanna: Brilliant. Well, thanks so much for your time, Becca. That was great.

Becca: Thanks for having me.

The post Dealing With Change And How To Build Resilience As An Author With Becca Syme first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you create more beautiful print books — and make more money with your products by selling direct? Alex Smith explains how BookVault can help with various options as well as helpful resources.

In the intro, audiobooks and AI [Frankfurt Bookmesse]; Artificial Intelligence, Blockchain, and Virtual Worlds by Joanna Penn; Google's woke AI Gemini [The Verge]; AI solving humanity's hardest problems [klein-podcast-demis-hassabis.html" title="">NY Times]; Demis Hassabis on Hard Fork [deepmind-demis-hassabis.html" title="">NY Times]; Finding my voice in the AI wars [Talena Winters].

Plus, Author Blueprint (2024) is now in print (or get the ebook here); Spear of Destiny prelaunch page.

Today's show is sponsored by ProWritingAid, writing and editing software that goes way beyond just grammar and typo checking. With its detailed reports on how to improve your writing and integration with Scrivener, ProWritingAid will help you improve your book before you send it to an editor, agent or publisher. Check it out for free or get 25% off the premium edition at www.ProWritingAid.com/joanna

Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Services that Bookvault offers authors in order to make beautiful books and make more money selling direct
• Common issues to avoid when uploading files
• Special edition books—ribbons, sprayed edges, foiling options, and more
• Options for photo books or art books
• Working with Bookvault to create and fulfill a Kickstarter campaign
• How to get more help if you need it
• How the payment and fulfillment process works
• Connecting Bookvault to your direct online store

Find out more about Alex Smith and Bookvault at Bookvault.app, which fulfils the print editions of my books at CreativePennBooks.com, and JFPennBooks.com.

Transcript of Interview with Alex Smith

Joanna: Alex Smith is the technical lead of Bookvault.app, the independent printer that I use for the books I sell direct on Shopify, as well as for my Kickstarters. So welcome to the show, Alex.

Alex: Thank you so much for having us on.

Joanna: I'm excited to talk to you. So first up, just—

Tell people a bit more about Bookvault.

And also how its parent company has been around much longer than people might think, given you kind of came out of nowhere a couple of years ago.

Alex: Yes, so Bookvault is part of a large company called worldwide.com/" title="">Print On Demand Worldwide. So we've been going for just shy of 29 years now. So, longer than me.

Joanna: That's really funny. Wait, how old are you?

Alex: I'm 24, nearly 25.

Joanna: That's a great line. Okay, just so people know, you don't own the company, right? You're the technical lead, and you help all of us authors with all our stuff. Sorry, carry on about Print on Demand Worldwide.

Alex: Yes, so we have our own production facility in the UK based in Peterborough, so 70 miles north of London. From there, we've done short run printing for that length of period.

It was about 2009 that we launched Bookvault, and that was to serve our traditional publishers that we'd been working with, mainly in the academic sector.

So they had a need to print single books on demand and in kind of a simple ordering process. So Bookvault was always kind of fenced off for them. It was an invite-only kind of system.

When COVID struck, pretty much as everyone did, we sat back and evaluated our business. It gave us a real good time to kind of see where we're going. So we took those two years to completely redevelop the system, moving it more to kind of a self-sign-up approach and target the indie author market as well.

So we relaunched it around late 2021. That's when we popped up on the scene. I think we then met you at London Book Fair in '22, and that's where we've been going since.

Joanna: Yes, and as we speak, you're at another conference, and you're at a lot of the conferences. So hopefully, some of the people listening might have met you or Curtis or one of the team. Just in case people don't know—

What does Bookvault offer authors right now? What are the main services that authors are using?

Alex: So our big focus is to deliver high-quality books to help our authors earn more.

So we've got a wide variety of print options. So we currently offer six stocks. So that ranges everything from the kind of similar stuff that you get from KDP and Ingram with those traditional trade papers.

Equally, we offer some more kinds of different papers. So a really nice, coated paper for children's books and things like that. So that's something we really focus on.

Equally, we've got six different bindings as well. So that allows you to get your traditional paperback or printed case bound.

We also offer linen wrap with foiling and a jacket. We offer spiral and wire bound, so they're kind of lay-flat books. As well as saddle stitch as well, so that's where you've got a staple in the middle, and that kind of pamphlet thing.

So in terms of sizings as well, we don't have specific sizing. So you can upload a book of any size from A6 all the way to 297×297 millimeters. So it's a really big range, and that's in all those different bindings as well.

Equally, a big thing for us as well is we offer split color. So if you've got a 100-page book and only one-color page, we'll only charge you for that one color page. That is a really big thing for us.

One thing to note as well with Bookvault is that we do have an upload fee. That does stop the mass uploads. So when we initially relaunched it, it was a bit of naivety from us, we had someone in a weekend upload 20,000 books, all with different kittens on.

So that completely ground the system to a halt and realized we had to do something. I mean, I like kittens, but not that many kittens. So we had to put that upload fee in place.

We do work with organizations, such as the Alliance of Independent Authors, and every Alliance of Independent Authors member gets unlimited free title uploads each month. So it's not there as a barrier, it's just there to make sure that we've got genuine people wanting to make genuine money for selling their books.

Joanna: We know how important that is. I actually think some of these other places are going to put in some kind of nominal fee because it is kind of getting a bit crazy.

Let's come back to a few of the books. So amusingly, because of the sizing, this is what's so funny. You remember it, right, we met at London Book Fair, and I said, “Can I upload my five by eight files, the ones that I'd already got for KDP?”

Lulu, the kind of other main one that people were using for things like Kickstarter and all of that, they didn't offer a five by eight. So that was the moment I was like, “Great. I can just upload the same file.”

So I wanted to point that out to people is the files that you might have done for KDP, you can upload to Bookvault. The upload is pretty easy, but just tell people—

What are some common issues that you see in the files that people send?

Alex: Yes, certainly I think using a template or getting your sizing right is the most important one.

We have a few set sizes that people generally use there, as well as a custom one. There’s a size called “standard,” and quite a lot of people seem to tick that one no matter what size their file is and think that they're going to produce a standard book with whatever you upload.

So it's really important to make sure your sizing is exactly correct. We do have online validation. So as soon as you upload a file, it'll automatically go through and ticket, and then it'll be straight away ready to order. So it's kind of worth doing that.

Then once you have uploaded, make sure to download the files and do a virtual proof and check that they look okay as well.

I think you probably agree, the most important thing we see what people don't do is order a proof when you've uploaded it. So you can just order a single copy to yourself.

We've had people upload a title and then do a Kickstarter run of 500 books, and as soon as it comes off the end of the line, it gets warped because it doesn't look right. It's always a pretty nerve-wracking experience.

Joanna: Yes, I mean that it's just crazy. A couple of things there, one is—and amusingly, I said five by eight there, which is in inches if people don't know—and I think you've now added a toggle, haven't you, so that it's centimeters and inches.

Alex: Yes, millimeters and inches. We've had people trying to upload a book that was five millimeters by eight millimeters. So they ran into a few issues there.

Joanna: That's so funny.

Alex: Being a UK company, even myself, trying to get my head around inches and millimeters, I need a little pocket calculator to quickly do it. But yes, you can toggle between it.

Joanna: Also, so people know, because I did this the other day, you can upload an interior file and then download a template for the cover, can't you?

Alex: Yes. So that's something we've worked on, and we're looking to enhance it even further.

Even before you've made a title, you can go onto our quoting tool, put the sizes in and specifications, and then you can download both an interior template and a cover template. As well as if you want to upload a jacket as well, you can download a jacket template.

Joanna: So then the other thing is, I think many of us want to do more and more higher quality print books. You mentioned six stocks and special paper, you mentioned six bindings and lots of different types of things.

I know in terms of the covers, you can have different colored covers and materials. Like I did a ribbon, and there's all this different foil, and it's almost like there are so many options now.

What is the process for an author who might be thinking about doing higher quality print books?

How do they know what to even think about asking for or trying out?

Alex: So something we really pride ourselves on is customer service. So that's something we've noticed as we've grown, we're expanding with customer service because we really want to make sure that we can offer a really high level of service to everyone.

So I think we've got two new people starting this week. So we're growing quite, quite big there. So one thing I would always suggest is on our contact page, you can book a call with someone. So you can book a call with one of our print experts to kind of talk through your options.

They can show you on a video of what you might be looking at as well. So that's free of charge. Quite a lot of our customer service people come from the print floor, so they will have a very detailed knowledge of how it all works.

Joanna: That's good. I mean, I take lots of pictures of books, like at London Book Fair, where I'll see you in a couple of weeks’ time. It's like, okay, I really like that, I don't know what it's called, but if I show that picture to you, you'll know what it's called.

Alex: Yes. We have been stumped a couple of times because the obscurity, especially some books coming out of China, there's things we've never seen. Generally, there's at least someone in the office that knows what it is.

Joanna: Yes, exactly. So a couple of things that people might have heard of that may be coming. I mean, like you did ribbons for me.

Can anyone order ribbons now?

Alex: That's ready to go. So it'll be launching very imminently, probably in the next couple of weeks. It's something that we want to make sure, again, that we've got the level of customer service that we need for when they launch. We feel there's going to be a few questions.

So we've got quite a big event block at the moment, but as soon as that's kind of finished the end of March time, they'll be coming out live on the portal for anyone to order.

Joanna: Oh, okay. Then what about foil? Because Sacha Black right now is doing an amazing cover with rainbow foil. Like, I'm a bit jealous because I had really beautiful gold foil on Writing the Shadow, but now I'm like, rainbow foil, I didn't even know rainbow foil was a thing!

Tell us more about foil options.

Alex: So as I say, we're kind of taking it back as a company. Our owner, Andy Cork, he's always been a yes-man. So whenever the publishers come up to him asking for something, he would always say yes. It'll be one of the things where when he walks in the office, we're always worried about what he's agreed to next.

So as a company, we like to be able to do things that maybe other POD printers can't do. So we're introducing foiling. So that'll be the case that you supply an additional file with a black outline of what you want foiling.

Effectively, once we've printed the cover, the jacket, we can then put it through the foiling machine and it will print the foil on top as well. So we've got gold, silver, the holographic rainbowy silver, as well as a green, I believe. We'll kind of be expanding that along with these new changes with ribbons, as well as head and tail bands and endpapers as well.

Joanna: Oh, endpapers.

Tell me about endpapers.

Because that was on my list.

Alex: So printed endpapers, for those that don't know, is when you open the hardback of a book, usually with POD printing it will be either white or cream printed on the inside of the case. So printed endpapers are effectively similar to an interior page where we would print in color kind of another full spread image across it. So it creates a really nice high-quality finish.

Again, with Sacha Black's most recent Kickstarter, we printed some lips on the inside. So yes, you'll be able to upload an additional file on both the front and back of the hardback book, which will be a completely printed endpaper.

Joanna: Will the texture be different? Or is it just like normal paper?

Alex: It is a slightly thicker paper. It's 170 GSM. So it's kind of the same thickness as a jacket.

Joanna: Okay, cool. I should say, Sacha's are not just lips, they're vampire lips with fangs. People can have a look at that on her Kickstarter, which I'll link. It might have finished by the time this goes out, but the pictures will still be on the Kickstarter. So I think this is really, really cool.

So let's go through some of the other things that might be coming in this year that people might be interested in.

Alex: The biggest thing that I'm most excited about, and I guess it's something we haven't talked about too much.

We've just signed the contract for a new machine which will be doing sprayed edges.

I think the recent kind of delivery date we've been given is July.

So that will land in the facility in July, and we've already done the code for it. So as soon as it's kind of there, we'll be able to drop it straight onto the site. So on a single copy basis you can do sprayed edges books as well. I'm really excited about that.

Joanna: On a single copy. So that'll be print on demand?

Alex: Yes. All print on demand.

Joanna: Wow. Okay. So if people don't know—

What are sprayed edges?

Alex: So on both paperback and hardback, if you've got a book block, you normally kind of just see the white or the cream of the paper on the edge of the book itself. So you'll be able to print a fully digital image on that.

So we've seen some really cool ones where the front cover wraps all the way round to the back and again, so it's like a complete 360-degree picture. Or people have done really nice patterns and stuff like that. So yes, it's really exciting.

Joanna: So just to be clear, if people are holding a book in their hand with the spine against their palm, kind of the edges of the pages if they hold it towards them normally look white or cream, as you say. This will be that you can actually have a pattern on there or, like you say, a cover. So it means you can just put a lot more art on your book, right?

Alex: Yes. I think it's one of those where you look at Kickstarter and someone is selling their kind of traditional book there for 10 or 15 pounds, or with sprayed edges it is 60 or 70 pounds. So it just makes so much more of a premium product.

It's one of those that probably you won't traditionally do it for every book you sell. You kind of sell to those superfans, this special edition, and really on a higher markup. It is just great at the end of it.

Joanna: Well, that is cool because my next Kickstarter, Spear of Destiny, will happen in June. So that might be possible, right?

Alex: Yes, I would imagine so. That'll be really exciting.

Joanna: That will be. What I like I think about doing the, as you say, it could be print on demand, but I actually really like doing the special editions for the Kickstarters. Like Sacha's doing, too. Obviously, signing them and all that kind of thing.

So it is interesting to consider what we can do as print on demand, and then what we keep as special, I guess. Are there any things that you do that would have to be a special run?

Alex: No. So I guess our business model has always been print on demand, because at the end of the day, you would also want to see a proof. So we just like to set ourselves up as anything we can do as print on demand.

I mean, certainly with these bespoke things, it won't be as you expect with Amazon and Ingram where they come in a couple of days. It will take slightly longer. I think that's something you can—if you're selling direct—you can deal with by messaging and say it's bespoke, and it's being handmade, etc. So, yes, that's kind of the route we're taking.

Joanna: Yes, we'll come back to what's different about selling direct, but just a few more things. So last summer, you made a box for a trilogy of mine.

It is actually a box for a box set. What's the update on that?

Alex: Yes, they're kind of all lined up with this launch, with ribbons, advanced foiling, and all of those things. So it's going to be a very exciting release.

As I say, it's something I think is going to completely change the way of our business, as well as kind of the way that authors have the ability to do stuff because there's very little options out there, especially on a single copy basis, to do these special editions.

Joanna: Okay, and so on that, the box would be different for every single person's books. It's not a standard size. So it would get built to order.

Alex: Yes, so already on Bookvault, you can create a bundle. So effectively, you select a series of books that you want to be shipped together, and then that gives you a single ISBN or SKU. Then you can download a template for that to be able to generate a book box.

So we're also working with Reedsy, we're just working with some of their designers as well. So we have some designers on hand that we can point in the direction of to create that artwork box as well. It's a bit different, I guess, to the traditional thing that you'd expect with a book.

Joanna: Yes, and this is really interesting because I do agree. I think the design has to be more than just what was on the cover, for example. So yes, there's a lot more potential design work involved, which in itself is very exciting.

I guess for people listening, the reason we're doing this is, one, because we all love books, and we really like beautiful objects. But also —

We need to set ourselves apart with beautiful print products in a world where there are millions of digital books.

I think this is a way to set ourselves apart.

Also, we can make more money per copy. We're not going to go into the finances of this, and obviously, these more special editions cost more money to print, but you can still make a good profit, as I know.

So just a few more things. So my next project after Spear of Destiny is going to be a high-quality photo coffee table book on Gothic Cathedrals.

If people want to do photo books or art books, what are the options for that?

Alex: So we offer two different print options at Bookvault. So we've got standard and premium. So our standard print is all done via an inkjet. So effectively, it's a massive roll of paper on the end of a printer that kind of goes straight through and is chopped straight into a book. That works fantastically for, I'd say, 99% of all books.

We do also offer premium printing as well. So that comes out of a toner device. So it's kind of your traditional printer of feeding in sheets and trimming them down from that.

So that's perfect, as you mentioned, for the coffee table books and those side of things. So it's really nice vibrant color on a glossy paper you would traditionally see with photo books or coffee table books.

The one thing I would mention, and it's always good to be open with this caveat, is we are still a digital printer. So you won't get those Pantone color matches that you might do with other arts printers or litho printers or things like that. We try to get the best color match for your file, but equally, there may be a slight deviation.

Joanna: Yes, okay. That's great. I've written down here, “Kickstarter help.”

You're also going to offer help with Kickstarter files soon.

Alex: Yes.

Joanna: Because you and I have had emails going backwards and forwards with spreadsheets, and you guys have been so helpful to me. But obviously, if more and more authors do this, you can't necessarily offer sort of individual help like you've given me.

Alex: As Kickstarters are growing more and more, myself, personally, yes, head banging against the wall with different data and kind of formats and stuff like that. So we've built in a bulk upload tool.

So again, this will be launching with all these ribbons. It's going to be a big launch of kind of all the bespoke options and Kickstarter help.

So effectively, you'll be able to upload your spreadsheet, that's your kind of backer spreadsheet of Kickstarter, or a template one that you've created yourself. That sends the data fields to Bookvault, and then it will automatically import all those orders for you.

So the plan is, it's very hands off. So certainly, it's going to make our life easier, but also you can upload a bulk order in a matter of, I say, minutes. It's still good to check all the data and make sure it's come across as you'd expect.

We've seen, I don't know why, just someone sent over a spreadsheet the other week that had obscure spaces, so it just made every space got replaced with a question mark or something like that. So it's always good just to validate it, and if you have any issues reach out to us. But with 99% of people that should just be a case of uploading a file and it importing all the orders.

Joanna: Oh, I'm excited about that. So wait, that will be done by my next campaign?

Alex: Yes, it will be.

Joanna: Thank goodness for that. I think this is what's exciting. One, thank you personally, because I very much value having someone who's so enthusiastic about technology. Also, you have this great can-do attitude. I guess you mentioned Andy has that too, and the team generally does. It's like, we're going to make this happen.

So often with tech companies, having also worked for some myself, it's, “No, you can't do that. You have to do what our system tells you to do. We're not going to build anything.” Whereas you'll just be like, “No, we can do that,” and build something, which I love.

Alex: I think that's obviously myself attending some of your events as well. I think the first one for me was 20Books Vegas where I was kind of taken a bit back. It was just me on a little table, and I basically lost all my material within the first hour.

So it was really fantastic speaking to authors and hearing what they want to do.

Our passion as a company is to enable people to earn more.

I think we're looking at it, seeing the traditional players kind of saying you've got to adhere to exactly what they want to do, or you don't do it at all. So yes, it's certainly something we're really pushing at as a business because we can and we want to.

Joanna: I mean, we're indie authors, and you're an indie printer. So, I mean, yes, that's the idea, which I love. I also want people listening to keep this in mind.

I feel like, and I'm sure you guys do, people have a certain way of addressing KDP help or Ingram Spark help or some of the help desk for some of the big companies.

They might assume that you have warehouses and warehouses of staff, but you don't, do you? It's a small company.

Alex: So I mean, we are growing. So that's one big thing for us is customer service. That's why we just took on two new people, and it's kind of an ever-growing thing.

We are a relatively small company. We still have room for growth and things like that. But, yes, there is always someone at the end of the phone or at the end of the email that is a nice person. So they'll help you.

Joanna: Yes, so be nice. I do like that you now have a help desk ticket system. This is something of what was on my list for you like last year or whatever. It was like you need a ticket system. So now, once you're a Bookvault customer, you can access this form, and you can raise a ticket.

I mean, obviously there are always—not always, not every single time—but I mean, I sell quite a lot of books, and a customer might email me and say, “Oh, this shipment didn't arrive,” or something. I just go in, and I raise a ticket, and one of the team will look at it.

So I think it's really good that you have that way of doing stuff. That's important as well. It makes me feel happy that you're dealing with it, and the team do that really quickly.

Alex: I think support is something we saw with our growth, we noticed a demand in. So we introduced a ticket system. We've also been kind of expanding our Help Center as well. Generally, if there's something not on the Help Center, as they're replying to an email, they'll also add it on there as well. So that's ever growing.

Also, we're working with a creator as well to create some YouTube videos on the whole process of Bookvault, kind of step through how to do each thing as well. So that's something that is ever growing for us as well.

Joanna: Okay, a couple more things. One is I am very lucky in that I can drive like three hours and can be at your factory, and that's how we've done the signing for the book. Sacha lives in Peterborough, so she pops around to there too.

What if people want signing options?

I mean, there is something called tip-ins. Is that a possibility? Or is it that people will have to ship books to themselves and then ship them on?

Alex: Yes, certainly that's something we're exploring. So we are, I guess, starting with the basic stuff with the kind of bespoke stuff, the ribbons and things like that.

Signing is something we're addressing. I think the biggest concern for us is we obviously print in the UK and the US, but the US is not our facility. So we can't just demand them to do certain things. So stuff like signed books would have to be done in the UK.

So we're just kind of looking at the customs side of things of shipping paper over there for them to sign and then shipping it back. So we don't have an estimate on it yet, but it's certainly something we're looking at. Because, again, a signed book is something you can add a lot more value to as well.

Joanna: Exactly. I mean, I love the fact that I've been an indie author for like 15 years now, and every year we have had more options for what we can do.

Every year we get closer to being able to do exactly what traditional published authors can do.

I mean, I remember back in the day, we weren't even allowed to do pre-orders on Kindle, or as a non-American author, I couldn't even publish on Kindle back in like 2008, whenever it was.

So it's so brilliant to hear some of the things you're bringing in. You know, we see pictures of Neil Gaiman who obviously is super famous, but he will sign front sheets. He doesn't sign books, he'll sign front sheets, and then they'll get sent to the printer, and then they'll get put in.

Let's face it, there's some indie authors with really big audiences who might be interested in doing that.

Alex: Yes, definitely. As you say, I think it's interesting because —

We're coming to the point now where the indies are in front of the traditional publishers.

I think that's kind of where it's heading, you know, it's a lot more adaptable.

Whereas traditional publishers just think that they can stay with their traditional ways and do what they do, indie publishers are actually pushing forward and doing more interesting and exciting things as well.

Joanna: Yes, absolutely. Or, I guess, like we mentioned, it's rare to see. Like at Christmas, I saw a couple of books with sprayed edges in Waterstones, I bought one for my niece, but they're just not normal because they're more expensive. Most books don't get that treatment. So yes, I'm excited about that.

You mentioned the US printer. So talk about that, because obviously your Peterborough plant is in the UK.

Tell people if they're in the US or want to sell to the US, how does that work?

Alex: So we have a partner facility based out of Ohio in Ashland through Baker and Taylor. So they've been in the printing game a long time as well. Our US expansion started last July when we started sending books over there, and it's kind of continually going.

To be completely honest, we've been taken aback by the demand. So there's been cases where things have moved a bit slower than we would like, but the great thing is we've always been able to back that up with our UK facility as well.

So whereas if something is out of capacity in the US, we've been able to ship from the UK in kind of the same time scales for our consolidated service, so that's a positive.

So they offer kind of the base specs things. So they do the split color. They also do printed paperbacks and printed hardbacks in your kind of trade paper, so your cream and your white kind of textbook paper as such.

So yes, that's all printed out of the US. The timescales are generally three to five days for a book. So, again, it's nice and quick.

Joanna: Yes, and just to circle back to bundles because we glossed over that. It really is brilliant in that when you go to create a book, you can create a book, and then you can create a bundle and link them together.

12 book bundle – order with one product on jfpennbooks.com which is a bundle deal

So on my Shopify store, people can order, say, the first three of my ARKANE thrillers in print, and it goes through as one order as a bundle, and they get a special deal. It just makes it much more easier to price at the front end.

Also, then the order goes through, and then it's three — or 12 — books. I have those going out almost every day in the US, which is pretty exciting. So yes, I do think that that bundle technology, which again, people can do it themselves. Like they don't have to ask anyone, right? They just go in and set up another bundle.

Alex: Yes, and that's what we generally do. We kind of start stuff off as a closed thing, so similar to what we've done with the bespoke options. We do it ourselves manually for a bit, just to try and iron out any kinks or work out what goes wrong.

We did that with bundles, and I know that got very tedious. So yes, we now have the option for someone just to log onto the Bookvault portal and set up bundles themselves and get it all going. So it's really, really good.

Joanna: It is. Just for people, if you are selling direct, bundling print books is fantastic. It makes the deal look better, but you can also make good money. Whereas people are like, “Oh, you can just do that on Amazon.” Well, Amazon's print prices, we make very little money from print on Amazon.

This is, again, why we're all so excited. We can actually make decent money on print and print bundles. So I have bundles of three, and I have a 12-book bundle which also sells So yes, that's exciting.

So I also wanted to ask about merchandise since you have a sister company that offers mugs and stuff like that. Many authors who have Shopify stores want to add this kind of thing.

What's happening with merchandise?

Alex: Yes, so we have as part of the Print on Demand Worldwide umbrella, we also have a company called Photobubble. So that's UK based, and that kind of focuses on the equivalent of Snapfish. So we do photo books, and as you say, mugs, tote bags, etc.

So that is something we're planning to merge into the Bookvault system as well. So you can bundle things like a coffee mug with a book and do those kinds of upsell bundles as well.

For Kickstarters, you can do those reward tiers with different things. So again, they will be all print on demand and single copy. I need to get the habit of single copy for mugs, but single mugs. So they'll all be done through the Bookvault portal, and we're probably looking towards the middle of the year for that.

Joanna: Okay, and I mean, most authors are looking at bookmarks, and posters, cards, that kind of thing.

Alex: Yes. Again, that will kind of all be through that side of things as well. So you'll be able to upload a leaflet that goes with every order, or you'll be able to send yourself a boatload of leaflets, or bookmarks, etc.

So yes, that's all exciting. I think that's, again, something that with selling direct, people use apps like Printful, which is great, but then you've got to charge a customer twice for shipping because you've got the book coming from ourselves, and then the mug coming from Printful. So combining those together will be, I hope, a game changer.

Joanna: Exactly. I mean, I did enable some of this originally. Also, I was concerned about the quality. Not that the quality was bad, it's just you really do have to check everything and test everything. I was like, look, I would much rather be able to know that my books are going out with the mug or whatever from you guys. So I turned off my other stuff, and I am waiting for the merch.

Alex: I need to stop going to all these conferences and be tanning myself on the beach!

Joanna: Do some work, Alex. You're so lazy!

Alex: I know.

Joanna: By the way, everyone listening, this is a joke. I have had many emails from Alex at like 1 am or 2 am. I mean, you've worked so hard. Weekends. You barely ever have a day off. I appreciate all your hard work. I know how hard you work, and I really do appreciate it.

Okay, so let's talk about something else, which is when authors do print on demand, usually with Amazon and with Ingram, it's either free or there's a small charge to upload, but then they get paid by that company. So if people use KDP print, Amazon will pay them for the books.

What is the difference when people are using Bookvault or any other service when they're selling direct?

Alex: So direct selling is fantastic because you're in control of your own business. So effectively you are the payment gateway. All we would do is take the print.

So effectively, if you had your own direct store, the customer would pay you for the print and shipping of the book. Then you would then just pay us for the print.

So you would kind of get everything there. So it's a really highly profitable way of selling things.

We offer a range of apps for direct sale stores on Shopify, Wix, WooCommerce, Zapier, and there's a few other ones. I think TikTok Shop is in the works as well, which we're really excited for.

Joanna: Payhip as well, I think.

Alex: Yes, Payhip as well. So it's a really good way of kind of doing that as an automated way of the journey. I think it's, for me, I feel like the way forward. It's one of those things that you can't jump into it too quickly, but equally, once you do jump into it and do it bit by bit, it works really well.

Joanna: I would totally agree with you. You and I, I mean, you are very technical, I am reasonably okay with some technical stuff. How technical do people have to be in order to implement Bookvault onto their WooCommerce, or their Wix, or their Shopify?

Alex: I think it all depends on the platform you use. So Shopify, we always tend to direct people to. It's a really nice, simple platform. You can do more advanced things on it, but if you take the kind of baseline, it's really simple.

WooCommerce is kind of a bit more technically minded. There might be plugin conflicts and things like that. So it's always worth noting that.

In terms of the Bookvault app itself, we try and make things as easy as possible. So you effectively go to the systems App Store and install the Bookvault plugin. What that then does is you link up your account, and then you can also link up the titles.

So Bookvault will know that when that title is ordered on your store, it needs to fulfill this product. That works for both individual titles, but as you mentioned before, also bundles as well.

In terms of shipping, we've seen with other apps on the market, people kind of have to go in and do each shipping rate manually one by one and kind of work out. Our app sits in the middle and it will pull the most up to date pricing and serve it to the customer. The customer pays exactly what you would get charged.

That gets updated 24/7, and I think it uploads on Shopify just shy of 40,000 shipping rates. So if you had to do that manually yourself, you'd be there a very long time.

Then when the order comes through, it automatically picks up that order, sends it straight to Bookvault, and print and fulfills it directly to the customer from either the UK or US facility for you.

So the only thing you really need to do is if you're not happy to link a payment card, go in and pay for that order. Or you can add a balance or link a payment card and it'll automatically go through and process that for you.

Joanna: Yes, so just to reiterate, with this way of doing things, like you mentioned, so if someone orders a book on my Shopify store, they will pay, and if it's PayPal, I'll get the money like immediately, and if it's Shopify pay I'll get it within like 48 hours.

If the order goes through to Bookvault, and I have a balance there, and it comes off my balance. Or I could pay for it individually as it goes through, I've got a credit card on it.

You have to pay quicker, but you also get the money quicker.

So in terms of cash flow, you do have to be aware of that. Most orders it won't be a problem because you're not going to get like 30,000 orders in one day. So it's more kind of spread out.

I did want to make it clear to people because I feel like some people are surprised that you're not paying them.

Alex: Yes, and I think that it's a different way of doing it. Again, it's one of those that if you do have any questions, you can reach out to the team and they can talk you through the process. They've done it countless times. So yes, it's really good.

Equally as a company as well, we do also offer the kind of distribution model as such. We call it more of a stepping stone to direct sales. So we have our own retailer called The Great British Bookshop, and as I say, that probably sits more as our store, but it also is kind of a direct sales stepping stone.

So we will actually only charge 10% royalties minus the print cost. So you retain 90% minus the print cost there. So that's another way of earning kind of a higher margin than the likes of Amazon.

Also we pay out the royalties on the 14th of every month as well. So if you were to make a sale in March, we would then pay it out on the 14th of April or the closest working day.

Joanna: Which is quicker than Amazon and some of the others. Just on that, people tend to, including myself, we use Ingram Spark to go to their network of over 40,000 retailers.

So I use KDP print just for Amazon, then I use Ingram Spark for this wider, and then I use you guys for direct and Kickstarter. But as you mentioned, you do have distribution too.

Is there an overlap if people use Ingram and Bookvault?

Alex: No. So generally with distribution models, it always is generally who will win the buy box. So it can work with both ways. It's always best to have a primary distributor. So that would kind of be whoever you wish to choose, but then you can also list with other distributors there.

Something exciting that we're working on, it's in a very closed beta at the moment, but it is something we're hoping to launch in the next couple of months, I would say. It is more of an enhanced distribution model.

So currently, we distribute to Amazon retailers and a couple of others in the UK. We're working with Baker and Taylor to cover the US distribution. We are also working with an Indian distributor to cover the Indian market, as well as the Brazilian market, and also the South African market.

So that will start to grow our distribution platform because we've always been generally UK focused. Now we're thinking worldwide and kind of pushing out to those worldwide channels.

Joanna: I love it.

I love that indie authors are growing your business so much faster than the traditional publishers.

Alex: Yes. As I say, with traditional, it's always been like, this is our job, and we need to do it. Whereas now we've got the avenues to, as I say, go worldwide.

Joanna: Yes, and there's a lot of energy. I think that's the other thing is there is a lot of good energy. Indie authors are so pleased to be like, “Ooh, you mean I can do foil? That's amazing.”

Alex: I think that's the thing, and that's why I like going to the events so much. When you're talking to people, not only are they giving us ideas as well and kind of helping us steer in the right direction, but we're able to show what can be done.

I think when you go on a podcast and mention about foiling, it's really hard to picture that. Whereas if you see us in person, you can really see those beautiful books.

So we did a talk at the Superstars of Writing, and we have the books all up on show, and I think we have to usher people out of the room in the end because they needed it for the next talk.

Joanna: That's awesome. Also, you mentioned Reedsy earlier around designers maybe doing box sets and things like that and having a sort of referral process.

I think there's a huge gap in the author services market for people helping to build direct sales stores.

Is that something that you've mentioned to them? Because people must ask that all the time.

Alex: Yes, I think it's a difficult one because there is the need to, say, if you've not got time to kind of work with someone. But equally, I think with direct sales, it's so important to know your store and to be able to have a steer on it.

So we work with a company called Digital Authors Toolkit. Stuart there, he kind of focuses on Wix and does offer websites there. So if we do have people, we push them in that direction. He's fantastic. He's UK based, and he's great. It is something I think there is a gap for and it needs to be grown on.

Joanna: Well, I think there's a lot of exciting times ahead. Obviously, you and the team go to many of the author conferences, so people can certainly see you there or reach out to the team.

Where can people find Bookvault online?

Alex: So online, we've got our website which is bookvault.app. There you can sign up to Bookvault portal, as well as get a quote before creating an account.

We also have our social platforms as well. So we're on the kind of usual ones, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter or X, I guess now, where we kind of run promotions as well as publish articles and things like that.

We're trying to grow the YouTube channel a little bit as well, so that'll provide kind of helpful videos, as I say, that we're working on how to do little things.

Then also, primarily, we're attending a lot of events as well. So we're at 20Books Seville in a couple of weeks’ time, then London Book Fair. We've got an indie author conference in Huntington as well. Inkers Con, NINC, and then Author Nation as well, which we're excited for at the end of the year.

Joanna: Oh, fantastic. Well, I will see you in Seville.

Alex: I'm looking forward to it.

Joanna: Great. Thanks so much for your time, Alex. That was great.

Alex: Thank you very much.

The post How To Create Beautiful Print Books And Sell Direct With Alex Smith From Bookvault first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can you write a memoir that is emotionally honest and revealing enough for readers to care, and cope with the inevitable fear of judgment that evokes? How can you write about real places and people in memoir?

Why is editing a memoir so challenging and what should you keep in mind around publishing and marketing choices? J.F. Penn gives her tips after writing her midlife solo travel memoir, Pilgrimage: Lessons Learned from Solo Walking Three Ancient Ways.

Thanks to everyone who backed my Kickstarter for Pilgrimage, and to my Community at Patreon.com/thecreativepenn, who help fund the extra time it takes to produce these solo episodes.

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J.F. Penn is the Award-nominated, New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of thrillers, dark fantasy, crime, and travel memoir. Jo lives in Bath, England with her husband and two British short-hair cats, and enjoys a nice G&T.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• What kind of book do you want to write?
• The particular challenge of memoir
• Vulnerability and emotional honesty
• Capture your experience through writing and photos
• Writing about real people and places
• Character arc
• Truth (capital T) vs truth (small t)
• Specific sensory detail
• The first draft and killing your darlings
• Publishing choices and formats
• Marketing. Finding an audience for a different type of book

You can buy Pilgrimage in all the usual formats from my store, JFPennBooks.com as well as the special hardback and paperback with photos from the trips. It’s also on all the usual stores in all the usual formats, or order from your library or local bookstore. 

If you want to read about the day-by-day pilgrimages, and see photos from the routes — The Pilgrims Way and the St Cuthbert’s Way in the UK, and the Camino de Santiago Portuguese Coastal — go tohttps://www.booksandtravel.page/pilgrimage-resources/ for all the links to my trips, gear list, questions to think about, and interviews.

You can find my lessons learned from the campaign and more tips for Kickstarter at https://www.thecreativepenn.com/selldirectresources/ 

If you want more interviews on writing memoir and book recommendations, go to https://www.thecreativepenn.com/writing-memoir/ 

Introduction

I wrote this little book about writing travel memoir as a stretch goal for the Backers of my Pilgrimage Kickstarter in February, 2023. Thank you so much if you supported the campaign! 

I thought I would turn these notes into a craft book at some point, but as I shared in the episode on my 15-year Creative Pivot, I have a lot of other projects on the go, and I wanted to share this information with my wider community in the hope that it will help you if you want to write memoir of any kind, or even just non-fiction with more personal elements.

It is designed to be read or listened to after the Pilgrimage book as there may be spoilers, and also it makes more sense to be read in context. You can buy Pilgrimage at my store, www.jfpennbooks.com and also on all the usual stores in all the usual formats, but hopefully the information is still useful even if you haven’t read the book.

1. What kind of book do you want to write?

If you feel the urge to write a memoir, it might still take some time to work out what the hell you’re writing! 

I’ve been wanting to write a travel book for years, but I didn’t know exactly what I wanted to write. As a discovery writer, I figure out what I’m writing once I actually start writing it, so although I have written journals related to my travels for decades, nothing emerged as a coherent potential book.

To take a step back, I have a lot of potential ways into a travel book. 

My mum took me and my brother to live in Malawi, Africa, in the early 1980s and my memories of going to school there are full of the wonder of being ‘somewhere else.’

1024x251-1.jpeg" alt="Jo Penn, Early years in Malawi" class="wp-image-33464">Jo Penn, Early years in Malawi

I still remember looking out at the sunrise over the Sahara desert from the plane cockpit back in the days when they let kids go up there. Those were also the days when people still smoked on planes, and I remember how my mum made us breathe through handkerchiefs to save us breathing too much in.

Those early years may have triggered my wanderlust, and I started reading travel books in my teens. The Life of My Choice by Wilfred Thesiger, Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence, The Songlines by Bruce Chatwin, and so many more. I wanted to be like them and travel the world, experiencing everything and writing about my adventures.

Fast forward more than thirty years and I was writing non-fiction for authors, and also fiction as J.F. Penn, incorporating my more recent travels into my stories. Morgan Sierra, in my ARKANE series in particular, is my alter-ego and her adventures and thoughts are often my own. Although of course, I am not ex-Israeli military; I don’t know Krav Maga, and I don’t chase bad guys!

But despite all my published work, I still had a desire to write travel, and so in 2019, I started BooksAndTravel.page, with articles and photos about travel and books, as well as a bi-monthly podcast. 

The goal was to use the site to write memoir-style essays and create thematic episodes around my travels as well as interview other writers, and hopefully, figure out what I wanted to write in terms of a travel book, and build an audience along the way.

I did lots of solo episodes on my Books and Travel Podcast including why I travel, the importance of home in difficult times, the three trips that changed my life, Venice, scuba diving, Oxford, Australia, Bath, and more. [Episodes are linked on this page.] 

I had ideas for starting a separate business around guided trips and retreats, as well as books and other travel-related products.

Then, in early 2020, the pandemic struck, and the world changed. 

The travel industry changed too, and I also learned more about how the business side of it worked. The Books and Travel Podcast sustained me during the years of no travel, and slowly, I found examples of books that enabled me to see a path to writing my own. 

At first, I thought I would write an A to B travel narrative with personal elements, like Alastair Humphreys’, My Midsummer Morning. [Interview with Alastair here.]

I thought I might have several such books, one per walk/solo trip, similar to Holly Worton’s Alone on the Ridgeway. [Interview with Holly here.]

But after walking the Pilgrims’ Way, I realized I didn’t want to write a book about individual routes. I didn’t have enough material to make it a worthwhile narrative, and it just didn’t feel right.

Also, if I started writing these kinds of books, then I would need to write them for each trip. I still wanted to write my other books, and I just couldn’t see how I would have time for it all.

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Then I discovered travel books which are more a series of trips hung around thematic chapters, and that seemed like a better fit for my project.

Open Road: A Midlife Memoir of Travel Through the National Parks of the USA by Toby Neal was a great example [Interview with Toby here], as well as Not Quite Lost: Travels Without A Sense of Direction by Roz Morris.[Interview with Roz here.]

Both have chapters about different places interspersed with the emotional aspects of memoir.

In addition, although not specifically travel, Rachael Herron’s A Life in Stitches is also similar as a series of emotionally resonant linked essays about knitted garments. Rachael also has a craft book, Fast Draft Your Memoir, which is useful for the writing craft aspect. [Interview with Rachael here.]

TIP: Find books that are similar to what you want to write and model them.

There are lots of different travel sub-genres, and Jeremy Bassetti has a great article about 10 different kinds on his site, Travel Writing World. They include the travelogue, the quest, the investigation, the big idea, the mode (e.g. cycling), and more. I discussed aspects of travel writing with Jeremy in this interview.

I found this to be a critical part of the writing process, as until I had a ‘model’ for my book, I struggled to structure it. Once I knew it would be thematic chapters with vignettes, it was easier to work out what the book might be.

2. The particular challenge of memoir

“Writing the self is a tricky, slippery business.” Cathy Rentzenbrink, Write It All Down: How to Put Your Life on the Page

Before writing, I knew intellectually that memoir might take a lot more time than other kinds of writing, but truthfully, I didn’t expect it to be so for me. 

After all, I’ve written over 40 books. I know what I’m doing!

My books usually take a few months to write once I knuckle down to the first draft, and I write pretty clean these days so my edits are not usually significant. I’m a binge writer, or a project-focused writer, which means I don’t write every day, but I work on one project at a time, and put that through to completion, before working on the next. 

But it feels like I’ve been writing this memoir for decades — and realistically, I have been as there are elements of my earlier life included.

In an interview I did with Marion Roach Smith on memoir in July 2020, I said, 

“I keep walking up to the idea of memoir and then walking away again.”

That’s how it’s been for a long time.

Threads of ideas in the book come from my teenage years, and the idea of walking the Camino itself comes from those early days of faith. 

The words that eventually became Pilgrimage were mainly written from the early months of 2020 to the end of 2022, so that’s almost three years and most of those words were discarded, anyway. 

I have never taken so long to write a book.

I have never discarded so many words.

I have never wrestled with the material so much as this.

I have never found it this hard to produce a finished book.

And I am so proud of the result. 

Pilgrimage is an encapsulation of a snapshot of my life, and all the time it’s taken has been worth it.

This is not to suggest that memoir must take a lot of time, or that books written quickly are less worthy. It just demonstrates that memoir, in particular, is a messy process, and shaping a semblance of your life into a book that others might want to read is more challenging than expected.

Will I write another memoir?

I am 48 next month as I write this (March 2023), and hopefully, I have a lot of life left in me. I don’t expect to write another about pilgrimage or solo walking, but it is likely that at some point, I will write another memoir. But only when aspects of life shape themselves into a personal story worth telling, or another theme I want to address. 

Until then, I will write more fiction and non-fiction/self-help books and aspects of my life and my personality and my thoughts will come through in those. 

TIP: Let your memoir emerge.

It cannot be forced into being. It may take much longer than you expect to write — but it will be worth it.

3. Vulnerability and emotional honesty

“The truth of writing is the more specific we are, the more universal our experience becomes.”

Rachael Herron, author of Fast Draft Your Memoir, in an interview on memoir on The Creative Penn Podcast, Feb 2018.

I’m writing this in mid-February, 2023. My Pilgrimage Kickstarter finished last week. I sent the ebook and audiobook out yesterday and a few people also have printed copies.

People are reading my words — and it is terrifying. I have always had a fear of judgment and it’s in full force right now.

I haven’t felt this level of fear about a book for a long time, but perhaps that’s what enables memoir to connect with people in a deeper way. We bare our hearts on the page.

Memoir requires emotional vulnerability and the sharing of personal stories and insights, and as such, requires more depth from the writer than other genres. I was absolutely intimidated by this, especially as my story has aspects of depression and suicidal thoughts that I haven’t shared before. 

I’m also British and I’m not an over-sharer in general. I was taught to “pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again,” one of my mum’s favorite mantras when things were difficult. Don’t dwell on the past, just get on with whatever’s next.

But we are all broken, and the last few years of the pandemic have beaten everyone down, and if I didn’t share my difficulties, it would not be a memoir but a travelogue or a trip guide. 

Memoir demands emotional depth, and so I included aspects of both physical pain, mental health problems, and even the hormonal rollercoaster of being a woman in midlife.

I questioned whether to include that section, but my depression and insomnia were so closely linked with my hormones, and were so quickly fixed by HRT, that I included it in the hope it would help someone else. And indeed, I have already received emails thanking me for that section.

There were things I edited out.

Things related to people I love that did not serve the story and, therefore, were unnecessary in this book. Other things that I have not processed enough to share at this point. 

A finished and published memoir is not therapy. Once you shape it into the final form of a book, it is for others, not yourself. 

TIP: Write it all down. Edit later. Be true to the story you want to tell.

From my interview with Alastair Humphreys about his travel memoirs, 

“The way to do it well is to be as honest as you dare and as honest as you’re possibly comfortable with, and then a bit beyond. I think my book [My Midsummer Morning] got better the more honest and vulnerable I made myself, which is a difficult thing to do, but simply in terms of if you want to write a good book, then you just have to be honest, lay it on the line. 

And you, as a reader, will know that yourself from reading books, the memoirs that grip you are the ones that really go deep, and honest, and vulnerable.”

4. Capture your experience through writing and photos

If you want to write a travel memoir, you have to go on a trip, or more than one, in order to provide the raw material for your book. [You can find the day-by-day trip notes and photos here.]

I primarily use hand-written notes in a journal. For journal geeks, I prefer Leuchtturm A5 hardback with plain paper with a teal/blue/red cover. They are not cheap, but my words are worth it! I usually write with a plain black biro. I also take a lot of pictures with my iPhone.

I prepared for journaling on my pilgrimages by taking a list of questions to consider, because if you don’t help yourself with some prompts, it can be hard to pay attention to specific details. And the best travel books are very specific with details! 

Examples include: 

• What am I escaping from?
• What is ancient, and what is modern?
• What can I be curious about today?
• What is the shadow or the darkness here?

I printed the questions and stuck them into my journal as a reminder of what I wanted to think about. [The full list of questions are in Pilgrimage.]

I walked in the northern hemisphere autumn (Sept, Oct) for all three of my solo walking pilgrimages, so I woke before dawn most days. I also went to bed early, so I wrote every morning. I was usually too exhausted in the evenings, and the morning was better for writing my thoughts. 

During the day, I added notes into my Things app on my phone as a reminder for what I wanted to write about later. Here are some of my notes:

• Finches darting between trees. Hills on the water. Little wading birds. Moon is still high at 8.30 as the sky turns blue. 
• Pretty nasty docks and busy urban streets into Vigo.
• La reina eterna on Spanish news. Stopped for espresso. Footage of William and Harry walking behind Diana’s hearse. Feeling weepy. 

You can find some more of my daily notes at: www.thecreativepenn.com/dailynotes 

I also took a lot of pictures of different kinds:

• Beautiful or interesting pictures of the route, architecture, nature, landscapes, as well as selfies for social media usage later
• Specific photos of details to write about, e.g. plants or signs, stiles, food, my blisters and rashes and minor injuries so I know what day I got them, my gear, receipts from places I visited, screenshots of the map so I could pinpoint where I was when things happened, and many more.

I took many hundreds of photos, most of which I never shared, as they are more functional and for memory aids than beautiful. I was very glad of them later when it came to write about the trips.

I also had my maps and guidebooks, which I referred to before, during, and after each trip. 

As a backup, I took pictures of my journal pages every night and synced it with Wi-Fi to my Apple Photos, so even if I lost the physical journal I’d still have my writing.

You could also use audio recording for voice dictation or to record sounds of a place, or to interview people. Or you could use video for personal recollection, or for social media, or to produce a finished product. 

I didn’t use either of these, but many travel writers use them effectively. Check out Alastair Humphreys’ video about his Midsummer Morning trip on YouTube.

TIP: Capture more than you will ever need.

Minor things like the brand of beer, or the strange stile, or the person you met one morning may end up more important than you think in the finished book.

Process each trip soon afterwards.

Each experience needs processing time in order to figure out any meaning or deeper layers. 

I used my Books and Travel Podcast and website to document each of the routes, which meant I had to go through all of my photos and curate the best ones, as well as write about the day-to-day process. I did this within a month or so of each trip and this helped my initial thoughts to coalesce.

For reference, my daily posts are here: The Pilgrims’ Way, St Cuthbert’s Way, Camino de Santiago. 

I also did some solo podcast episodes where I reflected more on the meaning of the walks for the Pilgrims’ Way, This Too Shall Pass, and the Camino, A Pilgrim in the Path of History.

Later, when I came to write the book, I used the transcripts from those episodes in my Scrivener project and excerpted aspects of them into the book.

From my interview with Alastair Humphreys in April 2019, 

“When I get home, one of the first jobs I do is just type up the whole diary, which gradually starts to filter things in my head.”

TIP: Spend some time processing each experience soon after returning, writing something for publication on your blog, or in a podcast episode, or video. 

Otherwise, it might be years before you revisit the trip and you may have ‘lost’ elements of meaning, or reframed them based on later experience. That doesn’t mean a book written much later is invalid, it just means it will be different — as you are different.

5. Writing about real people and places

This is your story and, as such, is your perspective. 

But there are always other sides to any story. 

You don’t have to tell them in your book, but you have to understand that others may see a situation differently. If you write about real people in a way that hurts them in some way, or portrays them in a bad light, then there may be consequences. 

Only you can decide if you want to go ahead, and obviously, I can’t advise on the legal ramifications. 

This ALLi article might be useful around avoiding libel and defamation.

Personally, I suggest writing anything you like in the first draft. Let it rip. 

You can’t hurt anyone in a first draft, so write as if no one will ever see it. Password protect the file if you need to! Whatever it takes for you to feel safe when you’re writing.

Then, when you’re ready, and have some distance, edit the manuscript with fresh eyes and a clear perspective. 

If you don’t have distance and a clear perspective when you edit, if you still have an axe to grind, or you’re seeking revenge, or you’re trying to hurt someone with your words, then put the manuscript aside, get therapy or whatever you need to do, and come back to it when you are clear and can focus on what serves the book and the reader.

While I have written about Jonathan and my family in a limited way, my memoir is mainly about walking solo and my individual challenges, so I wasn’t worried about needing to change anything. 

Jonathan and my mum read the book, but only when it was finished, and neither asked for any changes. They understand I am a writer, and I process my life through writing, and while they were sad that I had a difficult time, they also appreciated that I was out the other side by the time the book was done.

In terms of writing about real places, and using company names and place names, I have used them throughout and also listed places I visited. I also do this in my fiction. But as I mention the positive experiences and leave out the negative, there is never likely to be any problem.  

TIP: Write for yourself, but edit for public consumption. 

Don’t publish unless you have a clear perspective on your work. Memoir is not therapy.

6. Character arc

“We're not reading your story for what you did, we're reading your story for what you did with it.”

Marion Roach Smith, in an interview about memoir on The Creative Penn Podcast, July 2020

There are different sub-genres within travel, many of which do not require a character arc. A travelogue about a particular journey or a route guide does not need a protagonist who experiences a transformation. 

But a travel memoir, or indeed any kind of memoir, requires a character arc — and that character is you!

It’s not just what happened. It’s why it matters and how you changed as a result. 

I didn’t even know what kind of book I was writing until I returned from my Camino and realised how much things had changed since I walked the Pilgrims’ Way two years before. 

My mental and physical health were transformed, and I felt like I had come home to Jonathan and Bath. A month later, we adopted two cats, Cashew and Noisette (lots of pics on my Facebook and Instagram @jfpennauthor). 

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This might seem like a minor thing, but we last had a cat, Shmi, in Australia in 2011, so it’s been over a decade since I felt settled enough to commit to looking after animals again. I had turned a corner in my life and suddenly I saw how the book could end.

I had been through a transformational character arc without even realising it during the process, and perhaps that is how life works. When we are in something, we can’t see the end, or reflect upon its meaning. We have to finish the experience in order to truly understand the arc.

TIP: If you can’t see the character arc and transformation in your story, you might not have finished the journey yet.

7. Truth (capital T) vs truth (small t)

In terms of writing your character arc, you need to emphasize both the beginning and the end, so the journey and transformation are clear. 

After I wrote the conclusion — which represented the end of the three pilgrimages — I realized I needed an epilogue that reflected the opening scene, a circular return to my initial self-destructive thoughts at the river. 

Jonathan and I walk over that bridge together several times a week, and we did it almost every day during the pandemic. So I wrote the epilogue about standing on the bridge together, and then later went for a walk and stood there with him again to depict what I had already written. 

This particular incident is an example of the difference between Truth (with a capital T, i.e. the deeper meaning of the story) and truth (with a small ‘t’ i.e. what actually happened.) 

The Epilogue underscores the Truth of the book, that life goes on and there are flowers and hope even later in life, that the seasons will keep turning, and that I walk on together with my love. 

But it hadn’t happened exactly in that way at the time that I wrote it.

Truth in memoir is a difficult subject and each writer will define their boundaries as they feel to be right. After all, it is still a story, and you need narrative devices to make the book more readable.

A memoir is not an autobiography with a blow by blow account of all the details, or an exacting forensic report. It is a story, albeit a true one.

Lying or making things up entirely are not acceptable, but a writer may turn several minor characters into one person. They may write things out of order. They may write a conversation as they remember it, but memory is, of course, flawed and a dramatised conversation will not be exactly what happened.

Rachael Herron, author of Fast Draft Your Memoir, says, 

“the truth in the memory is changed every time you pull it out.” 

[More in this interview]. 

The details may be fuzzy, but you can still aim for emotional truth. 

Pilgrimage is emotionally true in every way, and it’s also factually correct as much as possible. 

This striving for truth also resulted in my decision on the final cover design, covered in more detail in section 10.

Essentially, I shared cover options with my patrons and some travel writers and they all picked one that had a ‘happy happy, joy joy’ vibe, but that is not the emotional truth of Pilgrimage! 

I decided on one of my photos with a stormy sky and a mountain to climb. It fitted the Truth and the truth of the book, and as one of my own photos, it is authentic in every way. 

TIP: Figure out your Truth (capital t) and try to make your truth (small t) as correct as possible, while still serving the story.

From my interview with Alastair Humphreys about his travel memoirs, 

“I never make up stories of stuff that didn't happen, but I often amalgamate a lot of different truths. So, lots of different memories of, say, campsites or perhaps different individual people I've met, I often amalgamate all of these things into one nugget of a story which serves to tell, more accurately, how the experience was at the time — and in a way, to make it more truthful. Not to make it more factual, but to make it more truthful.”

8. Use specific sensory detail

One of the key elements of travel writing is evoking a particular setting. A sense of place is critical for this genre.

But since Pilgrimage is a ‘lessons learned’ book as opposed to just a travelogue, I had to choose specific places to write about to illustrate each section, rather than a constant stream of description in each scene.

Our job as writers is to manipulate the mind of the reader. They should experience what we want them to through the details we choose to share.

Those details can be sensory description — sight, taste, touch, smell, sound — and you can enhance these with metaphorical, symbolic, emotional, or spiritual elements in order to deepen that sense of place.

One highlight of my three pilgrimages, and possibly the most spiritual of them all, was the crossing to Lindisfarne, Holy Island, which I share in chapter 2.3. A glimpse of the divine in sacred places.

on-the-sands-crossing-away-from-Lindisfarne-Photo-by-JFPenn-1024x768-1.jpeg" alt="" class="wp-image-36166">Walker on the sands across to lindisfarne, holy island. Photo by J.F. Penn

I took a lot of photos as I walked across, but did not write about it until the next morning, and even then, my journal notes were sparse. 

I wrote and rewrote this section many times for Pilgrimage. I wanted to share the physical and emotional truth of it and give a glimpse into how truly special this place is. If you ever get the chance, I highly recommend walking the sands to Holy Island.

I’ll share a section from the passage and highlight the sensory detail. 

---

Walking across the sands to Lindisfarne, Holy Island

I rose before the dawn on the final morning of my pilgrimage on the St Cuthbert’s Way. I stood at a farm gate looking east into the rising sun, next to a field of curious alpacas and chickens [SIGHT] quietly clucking in their roost. [SOUND] As the darkness lifted, the castle on Lindisfarne stood in silhouette against bars of coral clouds, shot through with luminous yellow and pink as the sun rose above the horizon. [SIGHT]

The end was so close now.

I was relieved because my muscles ached and I wanted to stop and rest and not walk another day, but I was also sad that the journey was almost over. I wanted to finish the path, but also to keep going. Yet there is nothing beyond Lindisfarne, only the North Sea, and I would reach the furthest point that day. [EMOTION]

The clearing sky indicated that the weather would be fine for my crossing of the sands [SIGHT], but I still felt some trepidation. The tidal website warned it was only safe to cross with a guide, and there were tales of walkers lost to the sea in the fog, or cars stranded on the causeway as water reclaimed the land.

But I had prepared, and I knew it was safe to cross. All that remained was to step off onto the sands that the sea left behind.

As the sky turned pale blue, I returned to the farm to retrieve my pack, hefting it onto my shoulders for the last time. [TOUCH]

It was only a few kilometres from the farm to the edge of the causeway. I walked with Dave and Keith, pilgrims I had met a few days back after getting lost on the boggy moor. On the way down, Keith and I discovered we had both studied theology and read many of the same books. Whereas I had turned my degree into the basis of my thrillers, he had spent a life of service as a social worker, supporting those with mental health issues. We disagreed on matters of faith, but there was a spark of intellectual connection. [SOUND] Pilgrimage encourages the discussion of such deeper matters and I fleetingly wished we could carry on our debate. But we were soon at the edge of South Low, where the tide had turned and the waters were receding.

Several enormous concrete blocks lay just before the causeway, anti-tank sea defences from World War II. [SIGHT] There were signs warning of unexploded ordnance in the area as well as quicksand, and more warnings of what could happen if the tide cut you off. It was hard to imagine the military swarming over this area, now a National Nature Reserve, protected for the biodiversity of life within its shifting sands and tidal waters.

A series of marker poles stretched across the sand to Lindisfarne, interspersed by two wooden refuges on stilts for those who could not beat the tide. The sky was pale blue and clouds scudded high above, and I could see all the way to Holy Island. It was safe to cross. [SIGHT]

I rolled my walking trousers up above my knees. Walking barefoot was the traditional way to cross, but I had blisters and raw patches on my feet, [TOUCH] so I wore my walking shoes with waterproof socks. I grasped my poles to steady myself — then stepped off the causeway onto the sand. [TOUCH]

I wanted to walk the final stretch alone, so after taking photos with Keith and Dave, I let them stride ahead.

The sand was initially firm underfoot [TOUCH] as I followed the path of tall wooden poles towards Holy Island. I skirted around deeper pools of water, stepping over the wiggly casts of lugworms and the footprints of wader birds. [SIGHT] Gulls flew overhead, their calls piercing the air. [SOUND]

There were patches of grass in places and channels of deeper water to navigate, [SIGHT] with sections of sucking mud [SOUND] which I clambered through, using my walking poles to gain a more even footing. I almost lost one shoe in the mud, [TOUCH] and it was certainly a more challenging walk than I expected. Less a stroll across firm sand, and more an adventure to reach the final destination.

The lower parts of the wooden guide poles were covered with barnacles and bladder wrack seaweed, surrounded by winkle shells and long strands of sea grass. [SIGHT, SMELL] Crabs scuttled in the shallow water, trying to sink away from the light. The upper parts of the poles that lay above the tide were stark white, reflecting the morning sun, and I could imagine pilgrims spotting them with relief on a foggy crossing.

I stopped halfway across and turned my back on the causeway, looking south across the water to Bamburgh Castle in the distance. A mournful sound pierced the air, a low moan like a chill wind sweeping through ruins. [SOUND, METAPHOR] The call of grey seals out on the sand flats, singing as they have for generations of pilgrims. I was just one more in a long line stretching back through history, and my footsteps would wash away with the tide like all who walked here before me. [SPIRITUAL, EMOTIONAL]

The crossing took about ninety minutes, with time enough to navigate slowly around the mud and deeper water channels. I finally clambered up the bank on the other side and sat on a bench, looking back at the mainland as I changed into dry shoes. [TOUCH]

As with my arrival at Canterbury Cathedral a year ago, there was no fanfare, no one cheering the finish line of my pilgrimage. Only a quiet sense of satisfaction that I had accomplished what I set out to do. [EMOTION]

---

As writers, we all have our strengths and weaknesses. In reading this now, and analysing it after the fact, it underscores my strength — visual description — and also my weaknesses, sound and smell, in particular. 

I am sensitive to sound, so am more often than not trying to shut it out with noise-cancelling headphones. I also lost my sense of smell with Covid and I don’t think it ever returned completely. 

I walked across a few months after having Covid, so it’s possible I couldn’t smell the sea or the seaweed, but at least there is a mention of it. If I was rewriting this now, I would layer in more sound and smell, and also a few more metaphorical elements. 

But overall, I’m happy with the passage and I think it gives a sense of the experience. 

TIP: Use specific sensory detail to bring scenes alive.

If you need help with specific senses, you can use Sudowrite or ChatGPT or any of the AI tools to help you. 

Check out my tutorial for Sudowrite where I talk about how to use the Describe function. Highlight a word and then ask it to Describe in more detail. The tool will return every sense and also metaphorical ideas.

9. The first draft and killing your darlings

I use Scrivener as my writing software and I ended up with several Scrivener projects for what turned into Pilgrimage, all started and left unfinished over the years. 

The original project was called Untethered, and it was more a series of essays about my various travels and my search for the idea of ‘home.’ I turned these into solo episodes on my Books and Travel podcast, but I couldn’t find a thread to turn it into a book I wanted to write.

I started another project after the Pilgrims’ Way that was more a travelogue with a day-by-day account of the route and thoughts along the way. But once I wrote it all down, it seemed pointless. There are many guides already and I had nothing new to offer.

I kept typing up my journal entries, and I wrote thousands of words under chapter headings, some of which made it into Books and Travel episodes, others which still lie dormant, perhaps never to be used in a published work at all.

After I returned from the Camino, the book I wanted to write solidified in my mind. 

I started a fresh Scrivener project and copied and pasted elements from all the old projects into it. I also added transcriptions of various solo podcast episodes and interviews I’d done on other shows, as well as typing up more journal notes from each trip. 

In my initial phase of using Scrivener for any project, it is a chaotic mess.

I add placeholder texts for everything I can think of, and then I organize it and fill in the blanks later. It truly is wrangling chaos, and sometimes I just have to walk away and return when I can see clearly again.

As I work through each section, I move the older sections into the Research area, which means they are not included in the Compiled document, which I backup every day.

Here’s a screenshot from Scrivener with my Raw journal notes, which include practical things like the toilets at a supermarket as I thought I was writing a travel guide at that point.

early draft of pilgrimage, scrivener screenshot

It’s also a good example of not knowing what you will think is important until later. My notes mention ‘the surprising mural by Adam Kossowski’ in Peckham, but there are very few details in the journal. I took lots of pictures of it, which you can see here on Instagram.

In the finished book, it became part of chapter 2.2. Walking in the path of history puts life in perspective, where I expanded the description. The mural represented 2000 years of history, and one picture made it into the finished hardback. It was more important in retrospect, as it represented the historical aspects in both a metaphorical and physical way.

TIP: Don’t try to write in linear order. Just get everything down and then reorganise later. 

Every time I finished a writing session, I exported from Scrivener into MS Word, backed that up on Dropbox, and also emailed it to myself. 

You can watch a tutorial on how I use Scrivener for fiction and non-fiction here. 

I also read a lot of books as part of my research. They gave a historical and religious perspective on pilgrimage, added to my knowledge about the benefits of walking and mental health, addressed midlife challenges, provided quotes to give extra resonance to the book, and helped me figure out where the book might fit in the ecosystem. I included the most useful in my Selected Bibliography at the back of Pilgrimage.

“In writing you must kill all your darlings.” William Faulkner

Once I had finished writing everything up, I had over 100,000 words of notes, thoughts, questions, quotes, research, journal pages, and ideas in my Scrivener project. Even once I had rearranged things, it was still a big book. 

But when I read it from end to end with fresh eyes, I realized something significant. 

From the reader’s perspective, it was full of repetition. 

The final book includes one chapter on The Pilgrim’s Day, but of course my notes were aspects of this over and over again, and the same for aspects of hardship, where I combined all my ramblings about pain into one chapter. 

The act of writing in a journal can be therapy, and it often is for me in daily life, but a finished book is for the reader.

The therapy is done, so leave it behind and reshape the words so they become something different.

If you are still writing for therapy, if you are still emotionally connected to the words, you will find it impossible to edit. Put the manuscript away and come back to it when you have some distance — and that might take longer than you think.

By the time I returned from my Camino, I had completed my character arc. I was on the other side of the experience and I could see what the finished book would be. I could then edit to fit that vision.

It serves no purpose for the reader if you include multiple instances of the same thing, so I removed tens of thousands of words to distill the manuscript down to its essence, and I reshaped the chapters into thematic elements.

This was incredibly difficult, and it took several passes before I honed the manuscript down to a slim 35,000-word draft.

I’ve never had to do this much word culling before. I usually write lean and have to expand. But this kind of writing was very different. What served me as I journaled each day differed from what served the reader as they read the book.

TIP: Write what you need to in your first draft, but serve the reader once you’re in editing mode. 

Kill your darlings, cull your words, rid your manuscript of repetition. It’s hard, but it will make for a better book.

10. Publishing choices and formats

Publishing choices are always difficult, but a personal memoir is a particular challenge. 

Yes, there are incredibly successful memoirs — Wild by Cheryl Strayed, and Educated by Tara Westover are two that spring to mind. They were traditionally published and became super successful, and rightfully so. 

But there are countless numbers of memoirs that are published and don’t make a splash. They sink with barely a ripple. If you license your rights to a publisher and it is not successful, then you have lost control of what is a highly personal book that means a lot and you may regret your choice to let it go.

Self-publishing a memoir means the book stays in your control, and there are pros and cons with that choice too. I have spoken to many memoir writers who say that they are pleased they self-published as it meant they kept control of the book, could decide on the cover and marketing options, and generally were more comfortable being responsible for the book as it was so personal.

You can find more details on the specifics of how I professionally self-publish here. 

Kickstarter

I’ve been focusing more on selling direct to readers over the last few years and I am pivoting my business to be ‘direct first,’ with some ‘direct-only’ products. I will still publish on the big retailers, but only once I have made money upfront first.

The goal with a Kickstarter campaign is to make a big chunk of sales upfront, and keep 95% of the profits. It is a lot of work and I will share my lessons learned on the campaign separately, but it was worth it for me, especially with this unusual personal memoir. 

Some say that Kickstarter is like an advance from a publisher, because you get a chunk of cash near the beginning of the process. My campaign made almost £26,000, and there is no way a publisher would have paid that for such a niche book. 

Once I have fulfilled the Kickstarter pledges, I will sell Pilgrimage from my JFPennBooks store for a month and then from 1 May, the ebook, audiobook, and black & white paperback will also be available on all other stores.

The goal is to take a bigger chunk of the revenue before the book is available everywhere, because of course the book platforms all take a cut of sale, so it’s better revenue-wise to sell direct first.

If you’re considering a Kickstarter campaign, it is much more complex than other forms of publishing, so please read Get Your Book Selling on Kickstarter by Russell Nohelty and Monica Leonelle. [Lots more resources here.]

Formats

I wanted a beautiful hardback with interior color photos as my primary format for the Kickstarter.

signing-Pilgrimage-hardbacks-at-Bookvault-in-Peterborough.png" alt="" class="wp-image-35341">JF Penn signing Pilgrimage hardbacks at the Bookvault printing factory, Peterborough, UK

I also wanted a special paperback with color photos, and both of these will only ever be available through the Kickstarter and from my store, www.JFPennBooks.com (unless they are sold secondhand elsewhere).

I produced these with Bookvault.app who I also use for printing from my store. The print quality is fantastic and they have great customer service.

For the hardback specifics, the books are: Case Bound – Cloth, 115gsm Coated white paper, Buckram Paris Blue cover stock, Novel size (203 x 127 cm, 5 x 8 inches), Matte lamination, with 16 full-colour interior pages.

I have never used coated heavier paper before, but the printed interior colour photos look so good this way, so it’s worth doing if you want a similar quality.

As per usual, I also produced an ebook, self-narrated audiobook, black & white paperback, and a large print edition. These formats will be available on all the usual stores and published through KDP Print for Amazon and Ingram Spark for all other places, as well as through Bookvault for my store.

My designer, Jane, at JDSmithDesign.com worked with me to do the book design, and it was a challenging process to decide on the photos and get it all formatted. 

We did it all before setting the Kickstarter live in order to get the final weight of the printed books which impacts shipping costs, an important thing to get right in the campaign.

I also used Midjourney to create a scallop shell ornamental break for the print and ebook editions.  

Cover design

I went through an extensive process to decide on my final cover for Pilgrimage. First, I took screenshots of similar books across the travel genre and made a presentation for my cover designer, Jane, so she could see the type of thing I was aiming for. I also provided several of my own photos from the routes.

Jane came back with six alternatives, three of which used my photos.

I did a poll for the six with my patrons and asked some travel writer friends, and the overwhelming choice was a cover with blue skies, green grass and a happy feeling.

But it was not my picture, and I didn’t feel it was emotionally ‘true,’ in terms of the promise of this particular book. 

It was important to me to use one of my pictures for such a personal book, and also to make it clear that the reality of pilgrimage (and mid-life) is more like climbing a mountain under stormy skies than skipping downhill in the sun without a care in the world.

I ultimately went with one of my own pictures from the St Cuthbert’s Way. You can see the entire cover design process with all the images here. 

Narrating the audiobook

I’ve been narrating my own non-fiction books and short stories for years now, so I was always going to narrate my memoir. [You can listen to a sample here.]

Even if you hire professional narrators for your other books, you might still consider narration for your memoir, as it is such a personal book and many memoirs are narrated by the author.

However, I realise that for some, this might be a scary prospect. In an interview on writing travel memoir, Alastair Humphreys talked about his narration of My Midsummer Morning.

“I was absolutely dreading it. As I started to read, I was thinking, ‘This is going to be terrible, it's going to be awful.' I was really dreading that, but I was pleased. It was actually quite a good book. And so, I think it was a good experience to do and definitely worth doing. It really wasn't much of a hassle at all.”

My specific tips for audiobook narration are in my book, Audio for Authors: Audiobooks, Podcasting, and Voice Technologies.

TIP: Think about what formats your audience might want, particularly for this special book, and how you might produce each. It might be different from your usual production process.

11. Marketing. Finding an audience for a different type of book

As Pilgrimage has been years in the making, and does not fit into my usual genres, I was unsure about how to market it, especially as (at the moment), I have no plans to write another travel memoir. 

I must confess to being quite concerned about the marketing, since I have a book on the topic, How to Market a Book, and I have a reputation to protect. If Pilgrimage flopped, I would be seriously embarrassed and yes, I am afraid of failure and I have fear of judgment. Not an unusual situation for authors!

Usually with book marketing, it’s about writing books in a series, and using the first one to attract readers with promotions, so they go on to read others in the series. 

Or if it’s a stand-alone book, there are usually other books which relate even tangentially to help with cross-promotion across an author’s name. 

But Pilgrimage does not cross over at all with my non-fiction books under Joanna Penn, and it also doesn’t fit with my J.F. Penn thriller/dark fantasy audience.

Neither of my main email lists or audiences were the target market for Pilgrimage.

Of course, it’s still written by me, so those readers who want more of my writing in general would buy it, but I couldn’t count on selling many copies that way! 

I decided to publish under J.F. Penn as there are religious and historical research elements in my fiction, and I also hoped that it might bring in new readers for my books as some of the pilgrimage sites are in the stories. Santiago de Compostela is in Stone of Fire, Lindisfarne is in Day of the Vikings, and Canterbury Cathedral is in Tomb of Relics.

My marketing for the Kickstarter launch period included: 

• Talking about it on my Creative Penn Podcast for months in advance 
• Setting up a pre-launch page on Kickstarter so people could sign up to be notified when it went live
• Getting my patrons and readers involved in things like cover design 
• Emailing my two different lists multiple times in the preparation period and during the campaign — which resulted in many unsubscribes, which was fine with me! After all, email lists cost money so you want to keep the buyers, not just the browsers.
• Doing podcast interviews on other shows and publishing excerpts from them on my own show
• Sharing audiobook chapters on my Books and Travel Podcast
• Social media — mainly Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram
• Paid ads on Facebook, but not a significant amount (I spent £300 on ads)

I’m also planning to do another marketing push once the book is out on all platforms, including Amazon Ads to specific pilgrimage books and keywords, which hopefully won’t be oversubscribed because it’s such a niche topic. Plus Facebook Ads to a landing page on my Shopify store, JFPennBooks.com to continue fostering direct sales. 

It’s quite good having different phases to the marketing, so I will do another wave in May 2023 for the ‘second launch.’

This very specific book doesn’t really fit with my existing backlist, but it is evergreen and can potentially reach a completely different audience to those I usually target with my other books.

I’m looking forward to being more creative with my marketing!

I hope these thoughts have been useful as you think about writing your own memoir, or perhaps doing a Kickstarter campaign for your book/s. Please do let me know any thoughts or comments below.

You can find more links to interviews and books on writing memoir here.

The post Tips On Writing Memoir With J.F. Penn first appeared on The Creative Penn.

How can we focus on the joy of the writing process itself, rather than the outcome? How can we embrace the positive side of being jealous of the success of other writers? How can we deepen our writing with metaphor and sense of place? Co-authors of writing book, Millions of Suns, Sharon and Christine share their tips.

In the intro, Findaway Terms of Service; Why Kickstarter is the Most Creative Way to Launch Your Book [Self-Publishing Advice]; Sell direct resources; Why writing books is a career like no other [Roz Morris]; You are not what you used to be [Johnny B. Truant]; OpenAI's text to video tool, Sora; Google's Gemini model; the Vesuvius Challenge;

Plus, my updated Author Blueprint; Spear of Destiny; and Pilgrimage is an award finalist for the Selfies [BookBrunch];

This podcast is sponsored by Kobo Writing Life, which helps authors self-publish and reach readers in global markets through the Kobo eco-system. You can also subscribe to the Kobo Writing Life podcast for interviews with successful indie authors. 

Sharon Fagan McDermott is an award-winning poet, musician, and a teacher of literature. M. C. Benner Dixon is an-award winning author, freelance editor, and writing coach. Together, they are the co-authors of Millions of Suns: On Writing and Life.

You can listen above or on your favorite podcast app or read the notes and links below. Here are the highlights and the full transcript is below. 

Show Notes

• Finding play and joy in the work of writing
• How to find joy when writing alone
• Using metaphor to elevate your writing
• Bringing place alive on the page
• Reframing jealousy in a positive way
• The benefits and struggles of co-writing

You can find Sharon at SharonFaganMcdermott.com and Christine at BennerDixon.com.

Transcript of Interview with Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon

Joanna: Sharon Fagan McDermott is an award-winning poet, musician, and a teacher of literature. M. C. Benner Dixon is an-award winning author, freelance editor, and writing coach. Together, they are the co-authors of Millions of Suns: On Writing and Life, which we're talking about today. So welcome to the show, Sharon and Christine.

Christine: Thank you so much. We're so glad to be here.

Sharon: We are so glad to be here. Thank you, Jo.

Joanna: So we're going to get straight into the book. You talk about the power, the play, the joy of writing.

It's interesting because sometimes I feel like that play and that joy are lost in the discussions around publishing and the business of books, and this show is as guilty as any around that. So I wondered if we could start by talking about—

What are your tips for finding play and joy in the work of writing itself? Especially if authors feel that it is lost.

Christine: Yes, absolutely. So this is Christine. Sharon and I actually met and became friends under very stressful circumstances. We're both upper school English teachers at the same school in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Teaching is one of those jobs, like publishing, that asks a lot of you.

There's a lot of little details to keep track of. It's emotionally intense. You're facing months on end of relentless deadlines. Sound familiar? Many days, Sharon and I ended up side by side in our office, looking and feeling a bit like dish rags, just kind of like limp and dripping.

In those difficult moments, and this is part of why we became such good friends, we would play together. One of us would start a joke about like how we wished we were ambidextrous because then we could grade twice as fast. Then the other one would suggest like writing with our toes, and we'd consider a pen in the mouth.

We'd go on and on and laugh ourselves silly. We weren't playing in those moments because we had lots of free time and light hearts, we were playing because we needed it. It was a way to name the absurdity of the situation and take a little bit of control back.

I think that's very often the case with playfulness and joy. These things are a necessity, not a luxury.

The book was actually written in the early days of the pandemic. Both Sharon and I, for different health reasons, have to be very cautious about COVID, so we went into intense isolation.

The writing was a joy to us, it sustained us, but it was a deep, hard joy that we kind of had to mine out of ourselves.

Not because we were living the good life, but because we needed it to survive. I think joy is this kind of radical act of resistance, and play too.

You asked about the pressures of publishing, and I think that that fits right in here.

It can be incredibly hard to keep the joy and playfulness of writing front and center. Publishing takes time, it takes attention, it's emotionally exhausting at times, and there's periods when it can really take over your writing life.

I would say there are a couple of things to do to protect your joy in writing. One is to involve someone else, preferably someone who is committed to celebrating your work.

Having Sharon on the other side of the porch, reading her essay drafts to me, listening to mine, made it feel a lot more like play because we were tossing ideas back and forth. We were delighting in little turns of phrase and asking questions, being in it together. So I think finding someone who will play with you is really important.

The other one is to really put a value on your joy. It's a harsh reality that time is finite. When you're working on the business side of publishing, it does cut into your writing time, period.

Have some grace with yourself. Don't beat yourself up if you didn't hit your 1000 words a day, or whatever your goal is. Keep in mind that —

The joy that you have in your writing is perhaps the most important resource for your writing career. You have to nurture it, you have to prioritize it.

Even if it feels like you should be doing these other things, do the kinds and the parts of writing that you love. Not just because it's good for your writing career, but it is. It's also because it's going to give you the tools to survive on the planet as a playful, joyful person.

If you want to talk in purely business terms, your writing career does depend on your willingness to keep writing. Feed the joy, and it will pay you back.

Sharon: I agree with Christine when she says pick the right person that you're going to be working with. The two of us knew each other so well and knew each other's sense of humor, and that sense of humor gets us through a lot of things.

I'm a poet, I usually write by myself. I'm not someone who can write out in coffee shops or other places with other people. I really need quiet and alone time to do that.

It's a cliche, but it's true, it can be very lonely to write sometimes, especially if you're doing material that might be slightly darker or delving into things you haven't delved into before. So this was a new occasion for me, working with Christine. The kind of joy that came from the spontaneity, that back and forth banter, knowing that somebody was on the other side of this.

I should say this, Jo, we made a pact with each other, we were not going to critique each other, which I know is unusual. We trusted each other's writing process, we trusted each other's skills. That's why I asked Christine to do this project with me.

In so trusting, we felt like we could do our own revisions. We didn't need to be each other's editors. That wasn't what we were there for. We were there to kind of inspire and support and uplift one another, and that's exactly what happened. I don't mean to sound pollyannaish, but it truly is what happened. It was probably my favorite writing experience of my life, to be honest with you.

Joanna: Well, that's interesting. You mentioned that you do most of your creation alone, and that is going to be the reality for most people listening. So what are your thoughts on finding that hard joy, I guess, as Christine mentioned before?

How do we find the joy if we're writing alone?

And we don't have that person who we're laughing with every day? How do you do it?

Sharon: I love that question, Jo. So sadly, I have just returned from a younger sister's funeral, and that just was this past weekend. I know I will be writing about her, and I'm sure that doesn't sound like anything that anybody would want to delve back into, going through grief and sorrow about losing someone you love.

For me—and this happened at a very young age, I think because I had an Irish grandfather who was always reciting poetry and was very playful about language. He would let me take a line, for instance, and let me kind of mimic it and then rhyme it, and he would laugh and support that kind of play with language. He didn't treat it as precious stuff in that way.

I think writing alone and needing the silence, I'm still amusing myself on the one hand by the malleability of language, the flexibility of it, the play that I can do with my words.

Also, I think, and this is a little bit deeper, I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but I think —

When you hit something like grief and something that feels chaotic and uncontrollable, there is something quite beautiful about being able to order something on a page, even if it's just words.

Words can't bring the dead back, they can't bring the loved one to your door again, but maybe I can take some of that grief that can feel so chaotic sometimes and make a pure order of it on the page while working in this medium that I love so much. I actually really love words, and I think that brings me comfort no matter what.

Joanna: I think that's great. I love this phrase that Christine used, I guess, this ‘hard joy.' Talking there about the difficulty in writing, and I'm so sorry about your sister, Sharon, I have two younger sisters. So I feel some empathy there.

Part of the reason we are writers is because it's the way we figure out things in our lives and on the page and try and communicate them to other people. I feel like sometimes people think, oh, if it's not coming easy then I'm a bad writer, or I'm not in some magic flow state.

But this is hard work, and I like this idea of finding pleasure in the work. Understanding that it is work, and yet this is what we love to do. I think that's what I was trying to get to in that.

Christine: I would say, I believe that it's a misunderstanding to say that play is easy.

If you ever watch children play, they work at it. Like watch a baby sitting on the ground with its blocks, and it is thinking, and it is working, and it is trying, and it is going through multiple iterations of “can I build this tower and knock it down?” and “how does gravity work?” and all of these things. They are working hard at play.

I don't think that the best kinds of play are simple and easy. They are the things that take work. The reward is profound when we surrender ourselves to that hard work of play, and the hard work of joy as well.

Joanna: Fantastic. Now in the book, you have a great chapter on metaphor. In fact, we had one earlier, you talked about being wrung out like a dish rag at the school, teaching. So there's a metaphor that people can picture in their heads.

How can we use metaphor effectively to elevate or deepen our writing?

But also avoid hammering people over the head with it? And also, I guess, be more original with our metaphors?

Sharon: So last night, the Grammy Awards were shown on the television, and everybody throws around the word star. That's where I want to begin because, of course, that's also a metaphor.

One of the things I love about it is that we don't think a lot about what we mean when we say ‘star.' When we say star, we just think of whatever the musician is that we might be complementing at that point, but really, we're evoking the cosmos.

We're evoking things that are above us and out of our grasp and out of reach. They're distant and mysterious, and they're sparkly and shiny, right? All of this is embedded in that metaphor, star.

The deeper you dig into the metaphor you choose to use, the more layers get peeled back.

I find that process very exciting, I kind of love that. It allows us to invoke things in a short amount of time, and in poetry, in particular, it becomes very important to be concise.

That economy of language has to say a lot in a little space. Metaphor is one thing that allows that. It's a vehicle that allows that.

I think also a good metaphor can concretize something. It can make that elusiveness of emotional experience a little bit more specific to the human being, as opposed to a Hallmark card, kind of up in the ether and talking in generalities. So the metaphor can kind of put a pinpoint on it, I guess, is what I want to say.

You know, our language is used for tax documents, and wills, and grocery lists, and all kinds of things. Also, there's something about metaphor, I think that when used well, can elevate the language.

I like that too. I do like that the language is taken a little bit out of the normal and the every day. I know that goes against some of what is being written now. I think a lot of people embrace conversational language and everyday language, and I applaud that, and a lot of people do it very well.

I still like a really good metaphor that can show you the reach and the breadth of our world. A glass may be a glass, but it might also be a shining star, right? I like that it can push our imagination into new places.

I would say it does need to be used sparingly. Too many metaphors start feeling overwrought. That's where that whole word pretentious starts being tossed around, if people find that they're running into metaphor and not enough straightforward language.

So I would say, a good metaphor comes in most handy when you're trying to make ground at the ineffable. You want to really share with somebody, “I really was feeling this thing. Boy, it's hard to talk about. I really don't know how to articulate it. It's kind of like…” and then you go into your simile or metaphor to give it a little bit more body.

Finally, we have a prompt in that chapter you talked about in Millions of Suns in the metaphor chapter, which honestly gives us the step-by-step way of generating metaphor. It's based on almost sitting wherever you are — and noticing.

A metaphor can be literally anything. I can say, “Love is the dusty old guitar sitting in my room right now.” And then I say that that out loud and my mind goes, well, what does that mean? What does it mean that love is a dusty old guitar?

Then I take it from there. You know, guitars have bridges, and they have frets. Then I start pulling apart both the concrete item and the possibilities inherent in what I just said. That's a form of play too. We were talking about play earlier, and I kind of love that moment of play.

That's, I think, where I get a lot of fresher metaphors from are just my everyday world. I look very closely at a doorknob, or a keyhole, or a jacket, and you call it some kind of more generalized thing.

“Anger is a purple velvet jacket.” Well, what the heck does that mean? At first, it makes no sense to us, but if you really tweak and work with a good metaphor, you can mine a lot from the language in that way.

Joanna: I love those examples. I love the dusty old guitar.

Actually, it's really interesting because as soon as you say dusty old guitar, then I get a sense of place, and I use sense of place a lot in my fiction and my memoir. I appreciated that you have a chapter on place.

How can we bring a place alive in a reader's mind?

Why is that so important?

Christine: The how of place is really interesting. I'm going to touch back to something I talk about in my essay on imagery. The temptation as writers when we have invested in a place and it has knit its way into us, or it's an imagined place and we have invested all of this meaning in that place, the temptation, because we have the language resources to do so and the imaginative resources to do so, is to describe it in exhaustive detail.

I have it so firmly in my mind that I can describe every nitty gritty piece and element of it for you. I could tell you about the dust on your shoes as you walk up the gravel driveway. I can give you the itch of sweat on your shins. I can give you the killed ears nest and the sound of the katydids in the hay field.

I could crawl over that place, the smells and the sensations, until my reader, if they're patient enough, is standing exactly where I am. They feel everything I feel.

That's the kicker. We are always at the mercy of our reader's patience.

So if a detail isn't doing something, if it doesn't carry some spark of energy that's going to kind of move forward in the prose, then it is our obligation as the curators of our own words to weed it out.

We have to say, okay, everything that is here that helps to build this place has to be doing something, even if we cherish it, even if we find it moving and evocative. Now, doing something doesn't just mean plot.

Establishing a sense of place is emotional work, it's atmospheric, and that can be important.

So setting a tone is work. It doesn't just have to be, okay, someone's going to use this leaf. therefore, I'm going to talk about the leaf. It can come from the connotations of specific words you're using, you know, the difference between sweltering heat and golden sunshine.

But once you've hit that tone, then move on so that you don't depend upon the patience of your reader to give every detail.

Also keep in mind that it doesn't have to happen all at once. I do think that place can be unveiled rather like a character, in glimpses that the reader pieces together into the whole.

So I do think that there is the impulse to have it all, to say it all, to give it all because I have it. That needs to be balanced and tempered somewhat with restraint so that we have some discovery of the place, as well as our characters and themes, everything else we're trying to put into our writing.

Joanna: That ‘everything else' is often difficult because there's always so much. Also, I guess, the character point of view for that.

Coming back to Sharon's dusty old guitar, the point of view of the character who is noticing that and who uses that metaphor is going to change so much about the story.

As in, is it a grandchild discovering the dusty old guitar of the dead grandfather, for example? Or who else could it be? That will change the description of the setting. So Sharon—Do you have any other sort of bits to add on setting?

Sharon: Place is really important to me, just as a person. I like to be grounded. I like to know where I am.

I believe very much in something Ralph Waldo Emerson talked about a long time ago. He said, “Why are we always going everywhere at such a pace? Why don't we just learn to know our own backyards?”

I wasn't deliberately doing this, but I kind of live that way. I'm very interested in the local. As an environmentalist, I think that also is influencing me because if I care about the local, I actually have the power to do something about the local. So that's more just on a personal level.

When I talk to my students about place, I kind of joke with them, and I say, look, in your lovely story, you keep saying “city, city, city,” but London is not Pittsburgh, is not Singapore, is not San Francisco.

These are very specific, different cities with different histories, different neighborhoods, different ways of being, and it matters.

It matters if you're shaping a character on the page. You know, how are they being shaped by the place in which they live? So I do push my students a lot in terms of naming things.

Give me a street name once in a while, if it's important to the story. I don't mean you have to name every single street the character is on, but if it's a key moment, yes, names matter. I think they make a difference. I think they ground the reader. I think that they make us feel like we are a part of the larger neighborhood that's been described there.

It also, just in real life, makes us have a stake in what's happening there. It's hard to care as much, it doesn't mean we don't, but about things that happen a zillion miles away. I know the internet demands that we care about everything in every part of the world at all times, but I don't think humans are wired to be able to do that.

I think we are wired to love a place and to love the people in that place. Yes, have compassion for others, of course, but place I think allows us to empower ourselves to do something. So I didn't talk as much about writing there maybe as you would like, Jo, but I think place is just a very personal thing to me. It matters.

I said to my students once, you would care about naming place if you had been standing where I was above the Mississippi River once where there was a big sign right in the grass that I was in that said, “Beware of poisonous snakes.” Boy, did I care about place at that moment. I screamed, and I ran, and that was that.

But I said place actually makes a big difference in how we feel, who we are, and how we're shaped.

Joanna: I really love that, and I agree with you.

Obviously, the character of the person who sees the snake sign and runs away is different to the person who sees the snake sign and kind of goes, “Oooh, snakes!” I'm that person, actually. I really love snakes. I wrote a whole book End of Days, which is all about a lot of different snakes.

So I want to come back to the book, because as well as the craft side, you also have chapters on more of the writing life.

Christine, you have a wonderful section on jealousy and ambition, which I feel is so often glossed over because we're like, “Oh, I would never feel that because that's just not me.” Like it's not acceptable to necessarily talk about jealousy. So I really appreciated that.

Can you talk about the kinds of jealousy that authors inevitably face?

And perhaps how we can admit it, but also spin it in a positive way.

Christine: This was a hard essay for me to write. I don't want people to know how petty I am, but I did write it and I sent it out. I included it in this book because, as you say, I think this is something we need to talk about. Just denying it or asking people to just stop it, that's not the way to get through.

I've always been a competitive person, but I really don't like how it feels. I get very judgmental about myself and about other people. It's always easier and somewhat more in keeping with my Mennonite upbringing to put aside ambition. So if I don't try to win, then there's no shame if I don't.

As a young adult, I really did, I tried to convince myself that my calling was only to teach literature, not to write it. So the fact that my poems and stories were locked away on read, that wouldn't be a failure.

That worked for a little while. I had a few flirtations with publication, but I really didn't allow myself to hope for anything more than that until 2019, when I quit my job as a classroom teacher.

I didn't have a real plan that I am going to go become a writer. It just bubbled up, and I realized that when I did that self-reflection and asked, what do I really want to do next? Yes, I wanted to publish. I wanted to write things that other people would read.

That's when the jealousy came in, hand in hand with my ambition.

The more I was getting into publishing, I could see other people succeeding and doing the thing that I wanted to do. So I was constantly comparing myself to others and not very generously, either to myself or to my fellow writers.

Now, of course, I can pull myself out of that mindset. It's not like I can only feel jealousy. I genuinely love to see other writers succeed, but that's not mutually exclusive.

I can feel jealousy and feel joy at watching other people succeed. I just have to acknowledge that the jealousy and the ambition are my little companions along for the ride.

As far as like how to take a more positive spin, I think that's something that I'm still working out. I can say that receiving affirmation from my writing has helped.

I don't just mean like success, right? Having Millions of Suns published, of course, was hard evidence that I wasn't shut out of this path. Then when I got the news that my novel The Height of Land, which is coming out this fall, had won a contest that I had entered it in, I couldn't stop shaking with the joy of it.

As important as those achievements were, the affirmation that really settled some of that jealousy in me was hearing from readers, from people who had read my writing and were moved by it. That's what I needed, and that's because that's why I wanted to publish in the first place.

Building that little bridge out of my mind to other people's and hearing that readers had actually been able to cross that bridge, settled something inside of me like nothing else did.

Maybe that's the lesson, right? That we can be that voice of affirmation for one another. You can't do that for yourself, but we can listen to each other, we can respond to each other, and prove to each other that the writing is working.

Joanna: So in terms of pulling oneself out of this—because I love that we're all admitting it that we all feel this sometimes. But Sharon, it's interesting. I mean, poetry, you're a poet.

I feel like even though sometimes poets might not necessarily be the top of the charts, that poets might find jealousy is just as bad as a poet as in the sort of bestselling thriller charts or whatever. So how do you deal with this?

How can we pull ourselves out of jealousy to reframe it in a more positive way?

Sharon: Well, you're absolutely right about that. Actually, I think when I was in graduate school as a poet, I was a little bit shocked to find out how jealous and how petty sometimes poets could be, including myself, when somebody else had a success that we were sort of longing for.

The success ranged, of course. When you're in graduate school, the success might be that I got a few poems taken in a known journal, right? Then it could build from there.

I think a couple of things happened for me. One is that I had some really good mentors. They kind of just put things in perspective for me. They said, “Yes, it's true. This person just got this award/publication that you wanted. But first of all, ask yourself, how hard are you working for it?”

The truth was, there were times in graduate school, because I was a single mom, I wasn't able to put all that much energy into kind of trying to produce and to get published. Then there were other times I could.

So that was helpful just to kind of sit back with myself and say, you know, this person just got that, but they send things out every week. You're not doing that. That was one thing that was a little bit helpful, just to give me a perspective.

I think the other thing was, and it took me a long time to realize this, but there's a million voices in the world.

There are so many writers out there, and there are so many poets out there, and there seems somehow to be room for all of us.

If we do the work, and we show up, and we continue to put effort out toward getting ourselves published, I do believe that sooner or later something will happen.

Like Mary Oliver was the goddess poet here in America, and I adore her too, but am I going to reach Mary Oliver status? No. I know that I won't, and I'm okay with that.

I think growing older also helps. I'm older than Christine, and I think growing older has tempered some of that for me. When I was in the university, teaching at the University of Pittsburgh, it was very competitive there, so you were picking up on some of that too.

The competition was really the more books you had, the more likely you would get a tenure track position, was the going saying. Well, it turned out, I didn't want a tenure track position.

I suddenly thought —

Just keep moving forward. The work makes you happy.

You love to write, you've always loved to write. In fact, I experimented for a year not writing, and I was miserable. I thought maybe I could walk away from it, that it was just more than I could do, and I was miserable without it.

So I'd say ask yourself, am I doing the work? I think that's just a nice practical thing to ask yourself.

Like this person I'm jealous of, have they been working that much harder at it? Putting more out there? That was helpful for me, just from my point of view.

Just, kind of for me, it's always about the work. Christine said something about publishing Millions of Suns. I was so thrilled when that book came out, when it was accepted and it came out. We loved our book launch. We had a great old time, packed house, lovely response from people.

But, you know, at this point, my brain just wants to move forward. It's not that I'm dropping Millions of Suns, I adore that book and I'm proud of it, but I love to write. So my mind is already like, okay, what's the next project? What are we doing next? Where are we digging in next?

That is not to say I don't still get jealous sometimes. I absolutely do. I just think the older I've gotten that that's kind of dimmed a little bit for me. Now I'm more about using your time wisely and get the work done.

Joanna: I love that you said the work makes you happy because that is the point. This is what I focus on too.

I was laughing because I'm the same as you, I always just want to move onto the next project. I'm like, yes, that one's done, let's just keep writing.

I love creating new things in the world, and the thing that's already out there is not the new thing, so let's just move onto the next project and write. So it's lovely that we can all find solace in the work as such.

So we talked a lot about what's in the book, but of course, many people listening are considering co-writing. I've co-written a few books myself, and I found it very, very hard. So I wondered if you could maybe talk about, from each of your perspectives—

What are the benefits of co-writing, as well as the challenges?

Sharon: I'm going to use a word that isn't very popular, but the reason that I asked Christine to work with me came purely out of my intuition. I have very strong intuition about certain things regarding my writing.

I was leading a creative writing workshop during COVID, and Christine was one of the members of it. There was about 10 of us. It was wonderful, it went on for a year and a half. It was on Zoom, of course, we weren't meeting in person.

One night, I just had this very strong feeling to ask Christine to write a book with me. I had no idea what I was asking. I didn't know what the book was or what we were going to write, I just wanted to do it.

I asked her after Zoom that night. She stayed after and I asked her, and she said an immediate yes. Then we went from there.

I think I mentioned this earlier in the broadcast that I just knew she was the right person to do it with. I have worked with brilliant writers. Terrance Hayes was one of my friends in graduate school. He's a superstar poet now and has won all kinds of major awards, including the National Book Award, and I never would have thought to ask him to do it with me.

There are certain personalities that you love, and they spark you, and they inspire you, but they might not be the right ones to get down into the nitty gritty with. Christine, I knew that we could make it through challenges, hard times, good times, because we had a good sense of humor. We listened well to each other, we respected each other.

I really respect her as a writer, and I really respect her insight into writing. Also, we have different personalities. Christine is much more patient than I am. Christine is much more practical-minded than I am.

I'm sort of a romantic. I'm up in the ether sometimes, and Christine has a fabulous way of grounding me. I think those kinds of differences in our personality became very useful as time went on.

Christine: So when it came time for us to promote the book, it was so helpful to have the both of us because we have different connections, we have different opinions, we have different skill sets.

So, you know, on social media some of our audiences do have overlap because we live in the same city, we taught in the same school. So we talked together about like how we would roll out our announcements so that people who only knew one of us got all the necessary information, but if they knew both of us it wouldn't become this totally redundant message that they hear 500 times a day.

That encouraged us to go really personal in how we talked about the book, which is appropriate for this book because it was really personal in its content. So we got to talk about what it meant for us to publish it, what it meant for us to appear in this place, or this newsletter, whatever.

We could really talk about what it meant to us, and I think that that brings people into that process with us and into the relationship between us as well.

Then we have our different strengths. My husband's a filmmaker, and I've learned some editing skills working with him. So he filmed a conversation with the two of us, and I edited it into two promo videos that shared the anticipation of the release.

We promote the book on both of our websites. Sharon was able to talk to the school where she and I met and talk about teaching the book in the Upper School. It's really just so helpful to have two people when you see each other as allies.

I think that's the thing. Of course there's moments of conflict, we had different approaches to how we wanted to negotiate the contract, but we put the relationship first because we knew that's where the gold was. That's what was kind of paying our way forward was that we knew we wanted to do this together. So that became the first priority.

Joanna: Well, the book is fantastic. It is Millions of Suns: On Writing and Life. So tell us—

Where can people find you and your books online?

Christine: So you can find Sharon at SharonFaganMcdermott.com. I'm at BennerDixon.com. You can sign up for email newsletters for upcoming releases and so forth. You can also look us up on Twitter. I'm on Bluesky and Instagram as well.

Millions of Suns can be found at book retailers like Bookshop and Amazon. If you want to get it straight from the University of Michigan Press website, it's also orderable there, or request it at your library.

Joanna: Fantastic. Well, it's been great to talk to you. Thank you so much for your time.

Christine: Thank you, Jo.

Sharon: Thank you, Jo.

The post The Hard Joy Of Writing With Sharon Fagan McDermott and M.C. Benner Dixon first appeared on The Creative Penn.