150x150.jpeg" alt="" width="150" height="150">Cassidy Hutchinson, an aide to former White House Chief of Staff Mark Meadows whose testimony captured the nation’s attention in the January 6 Congressional hearings, joins us this week to discuss her time in the Trump administration and her new role safeguarding American democracy.

Hutchinson was faced with a choice between loyalty to the Trump administration or loyalty to the country by revealing what she saw and heard in the attempt to overthrow a democratic election. She bravely came forward to become the pivotal witness in the House January 6 investigations, as her testimony transfixed and stunned the nation. In her memoir, Hutchinson reveals the struggle between the pressures she confronted to toe the party line and the demands of the oath she swore to defend American democracy.

Hutchinson’s memoir, Enough, was published in September 2023 and is a New York Times bestseller.

Episode Transcript

Michael Berkman From the McCartney Institute for Democracy on the campus of Penn State University. I’m Michael Berkman.

Chris Beem And I’m Chris Beem.

Jenna Spinelle I’m Jenna Spinelle, and welcome to Democracy Works. This week. We are very lucky to have with us Cassidy Hutchinson, who you may remember from her testimony in that now infamous white blazer in the January 6 committee hearings a couple of summers ago. She’s also the author of a new memoir called enough where she recounts her time working on Capitol Hill and later in the Trump administration under Mark Meadows. So lots of talk about and I think for somebody who’s only in our mid 20s. A lot to learn from Cassidy as well. We were very fortunate to have her spend the day with us here on campus.

Michael Berkman Yeah, Jenna, she was very generous with her time she was not wearing her white blazer she wore blue in honor of Penn State. She said if she visits a school she tries to wear the school colors I can think of a visitor we’ve had that has been received quite the way Cassidy Hutchinson was received, she got a standing ovation when she walked out on the stage at a packed auditorium, she was really a delightful guest. And very open. I feel like we learned quite a bit about Cassidy herself about what it was like to be working in the White House and about the personal struggle that she went through to find herself in front of that hearing, giving testimony that really, I think no one can deny blew open the January 6 hearings, and probably will continue to resonate as we go through court cases.

Chris Beem And also, you know, the other thing that struck me was kind of her humility, and the fact that she feels guilt and shame for for some of the things that she did. And, you know, obviously, for those of us who are kind of connected to the political world, that is an incredible rarity to see it at all, let alone see it express publicly. But I think there’s a connection between this sense of humility and her ability to summon the courage to do what she thought was right, irrespective of the costs.

Michael Berkman And I mean, one of my favorite moments sitting in class with her was when she said that, you know, she came to the realization that maybe she was going to have to do this, testifying that she understood clearly that her work with the Trump lawyers meant that she was being less than truthful, and that being less than truthful, was working on her internally. And she understood that it was bad for the country as well. But so she Googled Watergate, which gave me a clear indication of her age that she had to google Watergate. And she was looking to see you know, who was kind of like in a similar situation to her and she came across Alexander Butterfield, who was an assistant to the President was very different from Cassidy, Hutchinson. He was older, he advanced degrees. He came from an establishment family, he was an officer in the military. I mean, he was much more grown up than Cassidy was at the time that she found herself in this situation. But she did find Alexander Butterfield she got in touch with him. And he was a wise guy. I don’t mean that in the sense of a wise guy. I mean, it seemed like he was a wise man and older guys in his 90s Now, and he told her what she needed to hear, which was that he’s never regretted what he did. They remain good friends, and he provided a lot of inspiration for her. But Chris, I think just the parallels to Watergate itself are worth thinking about here.

Chris Beem Well, clearly, right. I mean, you know, when you will recounting that story I was thinking about, yeah, it’s much different circumstance between Butterfield and Hutchison. It’s also a very different context with regards to the culture and with regards to how we regard the presidency and it’s just not the same world and I think that makes Cassidy’s stand all the more courageous, right, because she didn’t have anything to rely on.

Michael Berkman I do think that Cassidy’s decision to go forward happened in a very different kind of political environment, one of you know, political retribution. depolarization one where she had real reason to care for her, you know, have concern for her life. And in the book, it’s really quite striking. I mean, she’s evicted from her apartment and no money at all. And you can’t underestimate I just don’t think the story is told enough about the extent to which the Trump people use their attorneys to represent people that you know, these people around Trump that don’t have the money, it saves in the money and they’re not acting in the best interest of their clients.

Chris Beem

No, they’re acting in the best interest As the person that’s paying the bill.

Michael Berkman Yeah, clearly were telling her to be less than forthcoming. I mean, they they tried a very careful line. They don’t say to her injury, they’re not saying lie, but they clearly did not want her to tell all that she knew. And I think what really troubled Cassidy and what she also learned from talking to Alexander Butterfield was no, it’s your responsibility to tell the truth, they, you know it, and she needed to do that for herself. And she needed to do it for the country. And now she’s, you know, a young woman trying to figure out how to how to get what to do, to get right how to get back on pass,

Jenna Spinelle I think that’s a good overview of who Cassidy is why her story is so important for our current political moment. So let’s go now to the interview.

Jenna Spinelle Cassidy Hutchinson, welcome to Democracy Works. Thanks for joining us today.

Cassidy Hutchinson  Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

Jenna Spinelle So you know, lots to talk about with your story and everything that you’ve been through. But I want to start with the formation of your political ideology you write in the book, I believe you were in middle school during the 2012 election and and had an assignment to, you know, compare Mitt Romney and Barack Obama. And I just wonder if you could talk a little bit about, you know, take us back to that time, and what were some of the things that you’ve saw in in the candidates and and how did you come to make that decision? It’s it’s rare that you someone can point to such a singular experience, that is the formation, especially with someone who has had a career in politics, as you have.

Cassidy Hutchinson  Yeah, it is interesting, looking back on that moment, and backtrack just a little bit more, oh, not a little bit more, sort of a lot. But but we’ll briefly get back up to this. I was four and a half years old when 911 happened. So I that was my first I had this surge of national pride. And it was natural miracles very united in that period. I was also raised, though, in a family that was had somewhat contentious views about the government and not very fond views about the government in some ways. So, you know, I wasn’t raised in a family that was very civically active, my parents had never voted before. But my uncle, my uncle Joe did serve in the Afghanistan war. So he was my first real example, and tangible example. And he was like a father figure to me to have a public servant. So I had this idea of like, I love my country, I want to serve my country in some way. Obviously, at this point, I’m very young. But I had this notion, right was very civic minded. I think from a younger age, although not conscious of it, obviously, that did continue through middle and high school. I was a sophomore in high school during the 2012 presidential election. And we were assigned, basically to write a little paper, but I turned it into this big case study of both candidates, and I still have the binder with all of it in it. And I watched all the debates, then I really started researching both party platforms. And, you know, I’ve thought a lot about this. And I’ve been asked questions about this. I don’t, there wasn’t really one specific issue that drew me towards the Republican Party, I think, you know, I was also raised in a blue collar family. My brother and I were the first in our family to go to college. And it’s because our parents worked so hard. And they gave us that opportunity to be able to do that and to be able to create a life better than what they had for themselves, but also that they were able to enable us to do that. I think what really attracted me to the Republican Party was more just the general belief system. And it sounds sort of silly saying that. But I just felt like what Mitt Romney was saying, aligned with my family, which was sort of anti government, but what I felt like they believed in what I felt like was reinforced with the environment that I lived in, made sense within the Republican Party. And I really liked Mitt Romney. I liked his character I liked Paul Ryan, I, I felt that there was I felt drawn to them as candidates, but I also wasn’t necessarily upset when Obama won the re election. But that was really my first taste of politics. And the years that fall to my junior and senior year of high school, I began to learn more about the party platforms. And that’s when I began to really believe in the Republican Party more across the board with issues which again, it propelled me to where I where I am now, but also to the feature career but also to touch on this to shows like how far we have gone from the difference between the party platform in 2012 versus 2016. And then what it has evolved to today I mean, it’s like IT company slightly different.

Jenna Spinelle Or maybe lack thereof,.

Cassidy Hutchinson  Romney and Paul Ryan, both are anti Trump and they are the two leading candidates and leader for the Republican Party just 12 years ago. And it’s Yeah, wild to think how fast we’ve devolved in to this.

Jenna Spinelle So to keep your your story going here, so you get to college, you really hustled and had several internships. And, you know, I was struck this is, I mean, one, your book is just a great behind the scenes look at like, what all of these people who make our government functioning like actually do all day. So that that piece of it is, is fascinating. But there’s I also thought about, you know, so I teach journalism, and I have students who will apply to Fox News and CNN and MSNBC, and NPR and Ben Shapiro’s podcast company, right. So there’s not always a partisan dimension to choosing where you want to work. And I was struck by what you said about sending out your resume to all 100. Senate offices, your career might have gone very differently had someone else. Yes, instead of, you know, Ted Cruz and where you went from there. But I guess I wonder if you can maybe talk about that. I think in these like polarized times, it’s easy to think about everything through this team red versus Team blue lens. But it also seems that there is an element of it that is maybe more nonpartisan, more focused on service and some of these other ideals that that you were just describing.

Cassidy Hutchinson  I applied for every Republican House office before I applied for every Republican and Democrats Democratic Senate office. And this was when I was a sophomore, going to my junior year of college, I considered myself a Republican, Trump had just been elected. I did vote for Trump in in the 2016 presidential election. But I entered public service with the mindset as quintessential as and cheesy as it sounds, but serving my country. And I really took that seriously. In the beginning. And I thought at the end, although there was a big period of disillusionment that I wasn’t conscious of, really at the time, which I’m sure we’ll get to. But yeah, I, throughout my internships on Capitol Hill, and then I ended up interning in the White House Office of Legislative Affairs, I did always feel that there was an importance to bipartisanship. And there, you have 70 plus percent of what typically passes through Congress has done so on a bipartisan basis. And that’s, we often focus on the hot button issues. But there is a lot that is accomplished. Typically, when political tribalism isn’t at the levels that it’s at right now. What I think is, I mean, there are a lot of unfortunate consequences of the political period that we’re in right now. But that is a really dangerous aspect of all this is how divided that we have become. And it’s become really easy, whether on the left or the right to demonize the other side and not want to be receptive of the other ideas. And I, I did fall into that. And I don’t say that with pride I, as I interned in large affairs, and I worked in large affairs, eventually the Chief of Staff’s office, and I grew into that the vitriol and the partisanship that I didn’t want to participate in when I became a public servant. And I realized at a point that I was serving my principles, the P a, l s, not the principles, Pl e. S, that I signed up to serve. And I wasn’t honoring the oath that I swore because loyalty to the country is more important than loyalty to an individual. But right now, within the Republican Party, it’s the loyalty is expected to be pledged towards Donald Trump.

Jenna Spinelle Yeah. And that leads us to a question I had about the idea of of power. I wonder like, you know, had you before you started working on Capitol Hill or on the White House? Did you had you kind of put some of the folks that you end up working for up on pedestals? And if so, how did how, if at all, did your feelings change, once you really kind of saw how the power they had was wielded. It also just seems that in some ways it felt reading your book, like you were talking about a bunch of like high school girls or something. And it’s not, not maybe the stereotypical image that we have of these big important officials in Washington.

Cassidy Hutchinson  You know, I don’t think I’ve ever gotten this question before, but it’s something that I have spent time thinking about two answers to it. First part, just address the book part. When I made the decision to write the book, there were a lot of things that I kept in the back of my mind that I wanted to accomplish. But one thing that I really tried to be conscious of, was to be as straight down the middle with it as I could. I felt like a lot of the books that emerged from the Trump administration were either glowing reviews of him and what the administration accomplished or it was completely critical. And to me, there’s always a middle road, it wasn’t all bad. And at the end of the day, people are people and to be able to bring into try to humanize those moments and show the more vulnerable sides of people, but also who they actually are not the Kevin McCarthy who goes on and gives press conferences and has, you know, he is Kevin McCarthy. But then he’s, he is Kevin, and it goes to be said about every politician second part and more important part of your question. And, you know, I, I actually think it’s was sort of the opposite at the time for me, I could be wrong. But I think, because I didn’t come from a political environment. And my first taste in politics was working for Steve Scalise. Within five days of my internship, I was in a room with every House Republican talking to them, as if they were just people. So I always had this view of like, okay, there are people, I can talk to them, like people, we’re all trying to accomplish something. And I feel like that was beneficial for me in the job, but I also look back now. And I see not just abuses of power and irresponsible abuse of their use of power. But I see more so how political they actually were and how they play the how politicians play a character essentially. And it as humanizing as those other moments are, I was also naive, I think, because I saw them as who they were. And I was naive to the political power that they actually wielded, if that kind of helps.

Jenna Spinelle You know, it’s it’s interesting to hear you say that he’s trying to try to take the straight down the middle approach, because to me, your book is and what I’ve heard you say publicly, it is remarkably devoid of ego, which is also something that is very rare in in politics, I wonder how you do it both at the time, and you know, looking back how you think about the egos of the folks that you worked with and for and and how that might have played into some of the decisions they made, or maybe things that they didn’t do, because they were, you know, concerned about how it would impact them and their reputations, and that level of power.

Cassidy Hutchinson  I wasn’t completely naive to the egos, especially of some individuals in the administration on Capitol Hill, even like some of my peers and colleagues. There was also natural egotism in Washington, DC, or there was a saying, and it’s not completely flattering or true. But by and large, Washington DC is a city full of idealistic people who think that they can change the world and they can change the country. And it is true, and that it takes a little bit of ego to do something like that. And it’s also an element of how people can change things. It’s not necessarily a bad thing. I was in denial of the level of egotism of some of the people that I did trust. And then I did place a lot of faith and hope in that it wasn’t their ego driving their decision making process, or it wasn’t their political capital that they were trying to save. I saw it as that’s what they truly believed. And like, for instance, my former boss, Mark Meadows, I, I really believed in him, and I really admire we politically were very different, but I admired him, I felt that he was a true believer in the agenda. I didn’t feel that I had to agree with him on everything in order to be an effective staffer for him. I also felt like we had a good dynamic that way. And I’m I’m not going to speculate or hypothesize whether Mark’s ego drove his decision making process or if it was his true belief system. But I see by and large in the Republican Party now, a lot of people who I know, know better who publicly on January 6, came out and denounced the former president for his responsibility that day, I think of politicians like Elise Stefanik, who I really admired. I wrote one of my college papers about her rise in the Republican Party and I, you know, the first years of the Trump administration, she didn’t want to come around the administration. She was a very moderate member and how quickly at least fell into the cycle of appeasing Donald Trump and being an enabler of his agenda, and has completely fallen beholden to Donald Trump now, and that is a trend that we are seeing continued to persist and especially as we go through this primary season, there have been a lot of people that have come out. And I believe a lot of it’s ego I think a lot of it’s trying to save political capital and to keep their power. And it does amaze me sometimes how desperate people are to hold on to that because you it this is still the ideal so maybe you enter public service to be an asset for your country and the most noble thing you can do is step down when you’re not no longer being that asset. But we’re seeing very few Republicans want to do that.

Jenna Spinelle What can Democrats and folks on the left do here because you know, you also write about the connection that you saw firsthand. Donald Trump make with people in the you know, formation of the mega base, you know, his rally These are compared to rock concerts. And people seek this out because they want that sense of community and to feel heard by him and also by other people. That’s just part of who we are as humans. And I think that notion is often met with condescension on the left, right, the basket of deplorables. And this idea that these people are just stupid, they don’t know anything, and they’re just how could they get kind of swindled like this? Right? So that seems to me to be not the most productive way to do things. So what? From where you sit, like, how can people who are not conservatives kind of aid in this this cause as you were just describing,

Cassidy Hutchinson  I really appreciate this question is, there’s not one clean cut answer, but it’s something that especially the last couple of months, I’ve, since the book came out, I spent a lot of time thinking about and you’re absolutely right there. And that was a big fear that I had coming forward. Frankly, too, I’d seen I’ll use my friend Alyssa Farah Griffin, for example. She has a long history of working in Republican politics on Capitol Hill, she worked for Mike Pence, who worked for the Secretary, Secretary of Defense Mark Esper Mark Meadows. She was the communications director during Trump’s last year in office. But on January 6, Alyssa came out and very fiercely denounce what was happening. And she was one of the first voices to do that. She was almost immediately demonized by the left, because they said, you know, she supported all of this. She doesn’t, she’s not welcome. She, she’s, I’m paraphrasing, but a bad person or she’s not. She was this she can’t ever change. She’s only trying to be advantageous. But then on the right, it was sort of the same thing. People were saying that she was an opportunist, that she was trying to make money and trying to appease the left. So she was in a no win situation there. That being said, That was a big fear that I had coming forward. And I’ve been really fortunate to have the experience that I have had. And I think part of its the changing, slowly changing dynamics of our conversations, but with the levels of political tribalism that we’re at, it is easy to just denounce one side. The focus of this needs to stay on Donald Trump, who is the perpetrator, and his enablers, the people who continue to surround him who are enabling the agenda, whether it’s his staff or members of Congress, the people, the voters, the average American person, in my view, I don’t like using the word victim, but they have been utterly artificially seduced by Donald Trump and his rhetoric, by his conspiracy theories and his promotion of conspiracy theories. He knows how to play on the fears of people and the anxieties of the American people. And he is portrayed as he is an honest man who is exposing the truth. And that’s that’s not the truth. So when we approach these conversations, and I think about even the first few conversations I had when I hadn’t formally broken from Trump world yet, but even the conversations I had, once I did, and I had new legal counsel and I was coming out and about to testify, and the most productive conversations I had with people personally, were approached, not from a place of HOW COULD YOU HAVE BELIEVED X was put me on the defensive. Because when people asked me to help explain certain things to them, I felt they’re receptive to how I could have once believed that, because I gave my mind the freedom to expand and to question things, and to also feel like I was talking to be listened to not talking to be heard and talked at. It’s a problem on the left and the right, the right doesn’t want to have those conversations with people on the left and the left doesn’t want to have, by and large with that with those conversations, the people on the right. But if we’re going to come out from underneath of this, we have to at some point, welcome people back. And we can’t blame the people who have been artists artificially seduced by Donald Trump, they need a home too. And we need, we need to keep them involved in civics and in politics, but also find a way to adequately educate them. And that happens through conversation that happens when we are able to talk to each other. And I think when we can keep that in mind, and it’s, it’s, you know, it’s easier said than done. But when we keep that in mind, especially with levels of political tribalism, that we’re at, you know, people want to feel like they have a sense of security, we gravitate towards tribes, naturally as like a natural human instinct, but that doesn’t have to be the left and the right. We all want, I hope, a better America and doesn’t have to come down to our political belief system. You know, there’s room for change. There’s room for compromise, and that’s what we’re built on.

Jenna Spinelle I mean, some of this will often lead to a conversation. So there’s culture and then there’s their structure, right? So we have to change the culture to maybe you know, recapture a shared sense of patriotism and these things, but then on the other side of the coin, there’s conversations about well, what incentives need to change for the elected officials to whether it’s you know, gerrymandering reform or the electoral college or some of those things I, I know you’re not an expert in, in political reform, but just thinking are there is there anything that comes to mind as far as incentives for the people who are in power based on on what you’ve seen? Like? What what incentives for them might need to change to get them to do some of these things? You’re just encouraging all of us who are not in positions of power to do?

Cassidy Hutchinson  You know, I will use I hope this helped answer the question, but I’m gonna use the word power very loosely here because you know, that position of power typically is defined as you if you hold public office or what you who you are and what actual power you can wield. But, again, it’s cheesy, but it’s true power is comes from leadership. And you know, Liz Cheney, for example, staunch conservative, obviously, she is the former Vice President Dick Cheney’s daughter, also very, very conservative. But part of Liz Cheney, Liz Cheney, I think wield a lot of power. But a big part of her power comes from the fact I look back at the her leadership throughout the January six investigations when she sat with Adam Kinzinger are the two Republicans on that committee on that Dyess are surrounded by Democrats, because they know that this moment is so much bigger and more important for our country than this political moment. And they sacrifice their career to do so. But what I think, you know, institutionally, what Liz Cheney has done is commit herself to saving the Republic. In the 2022, midterm cycle, she campaigned for Democrats. To me that is an extraordinary example of power and using money that is, she is fundraiser helping fundraise to put it towards candidates that are not promoting Donald Trump’s agenda, which is dangerous for our country. And seeing that if this means that we need to rebuild the Republican Party from the ground up and have a blue wave, and have Republicans hold Congress for a couple of years, so we can come out from this moment. No, that is, to me where there are, there are institutional reforms, like gerrymandering and things that I wanted, I’m not an expert and comfortable to talk about, there are much more more intelligent people that you could have to talk about the pros and cons of all that. But you know, I think about the power that we have in the power that Democrats also have to to welcome people like Liz Cheney, like myself, like Alyssa Farah, Adam Kinzinger, Mitt Romney, Republicans who they might not agree with, but are willing to work with to help overcome this moment. But that’s where we are as a country because I’ve been really impressed with a number of people and even Republicans who want to learn more and who want and who are receptive to learning more about this period in our history. The second thing, I think, that has surprised me and been a huge blessing for me is the story was really difficult for me to write in to me, it wasn’t a me versus them. It wasn’t me versus Trump world, or me versus the Republican Party. It wasn’t me, it’s a me versus me story. It’s a story of how types of coming to age story. It’s a cautionary tale. But it’s also how I wrestled with my belief system, and how I was able to come out from a difficult situation. But that also requires a level of vulnerability that I had to exhibit, which was a learning curve for me. But even talking about family things and knowing that, you know, I always said that one person reads this and feels that they’re more understood. And I’ve had a lot of people come up and talk about personal situations that they’ve been in completely apolitical, that there is an element of my story that does not directly relate to a situation that they are in, but it helps them understand their situation more. And that’s the power of storytelling.

Jenna Spinelle Last question, Cassidy, what does democracy mean to you?

Cassidy Hutchinson  It’s a loaded question. You know, to me, the democracy means a lot, and there’s a lot of different, say, different forms of democracy. But you know, American democracy is rooted in this belief isn’t we’re not necessarily a two party system, but we function off of different ideas. And, you know, this country is filled with people who thought like Cassidy Hutchinson, we would not be in a great place as a country. And that’s not because my beliefs aren’t okay in some areas, but it’s they’re not perfect in a lot of areas. And the, you know, so the exchanging of ideas is how we have thrived as a country and we have been an exceptional nation for just under 250 years, as an American experiment, because we’ve been able to reflect on our history but also look at our past mistakes and how we can correct those moving forward. And we’ve done that keeping in mind that we are the shining city on a hill in this country that is low Got globally as what other countries want to model themselves after. What I fear about the future of our country right now is that we are not looking towards our future, we’re stuck in this moment of political tribalism where everybody thinks that they’re right, or correct, and we’re not exchanging those ideas. And you know, we’re, I think we’re moving to a better place, both on the left and the right with that. But I also think, looking at this next election, in my view, this really could be the election that solidifies whether we continue to exist and continue to be the American experiment, or whether we really begin our disillusion as a nation, which also sets an example and a global impact, it’s going to send a global shockwave through. So I think, you know, looking at this next election, I’m not here ever going to tell people who to vote for, but there are two primary candidates on the ballot. There’s Joe Biden, and Donald Trump. I disagree with Joe Biden on a lot of policy. But what I believe in Joe Biden is that he is a truly decent person who wants the best for our country who wants democracy to continue continuing, surviving, and thriving. And then we have Donald Trump, who has essentially pledged to begin dismantling democracy, we saw that happen at the end of his first term in office, and it could very easily happen again. So this next election is, in my view, the election that could really could determine whether we continue to vote under our Constitution as it is, or if we’re going to not correct or correct course become, look towards our better angels like we have in the past.

Jenna Spinelle Well, Cassidy, thank you for all the work that you’ve done to help people see their own better angels, hopefully, and for sharing your story. And thank you for taking the time to talk with us today.

Cassidy Hutchinson  Thank you, and thank you for having me here.

Chris Beem Terrific interview. I mean, again, you hear this measured tone, and this, you know, overriding desire to say what’s true, and to say it in a way, that’s fair. And I really think that’s admirable, you know, so now I’m going to take it all back. No, that’s not true. I do think that, you know, I wonder how much she’s really come to terms fully with what went on in that White House, right? You know, she talked about at the, at her talk about how she came upon, and this is in the book to where she came upon Mark Meadows, burning documents. And, you know, it’s just hard for anybody not to kind of see that as deeply suspicious at best, but she was not willing to do that. And the other thing that struck me is, you know, she said that doubts started to slowly creep into her mind, about, you know, whether or not Donald Trump was serving the best interests of the nation. And, you know, I mean, I think that is a reality. And it’s impressive to me that she was able to get there. But you know, I mean, those signs were always there, right? I mean, you had this stuff with COVID. And, you know, even during the campaign, you had, you know, making fun of the disabled person and making fun of the Gold Star family. This is just not the way that a president normally behaves. And, you know, I don’t want like I say, I don’t want to, you know, use this as an opportunity or an occasion to say negative things about Cassidy Hutchinson. But I do think it reflects on the kind of the, the world in which we find ourselves where, you know, I and I think most people like me, are continually amazed that all these all this evidence, all these examples of unprincipled behavior, to say the least, just does not register. And it’s just to say that, you know, when you have hitched your wagon to the star, that becomes kind of an armor that surrounds you, and that nothing will penetrate and, you know, I do think it speaks better, of Cassidy that she got there. Anyway, Michael, what do you think?

Michael Berkman I didn’t really see her that way. I didn’t think she had hooked herself to Trump star at all. You know, my reading of how she ended up where she was, was not a typical to me of ambitious political science students who send off a million resumes to Capitol Hill and hope that one of them is going to land because you know, what they really want to do is be on Capitol Hill. When I read about how she got into the Republican Party in the first place, it didn’t have anything to do with Donald Trump at all. And it was, you know, based on a notion of the Republican Party as promoting strength is maybe promoting the best response to 911, which, you know, for kids who grew up in New Jersey was awfully traumatic events, especially in working class communities, which lost so many of their population and 911. So I didn’t see any of that as what brought her in. She was no true believer by any extent. And she ended up I fought in the White House purely in from a careerist perspective. Like here, Mark Meadows, who she met in the house, invited her over for a significant promotion actually started in the Office of Legislative Affairs. So she was working in this sort of policy like shop within the White House. And then Meadows brought her over, you know, she talked, I thought that I did think it was striking to talk about going to a Trump rally for the first time once she was already in the White House. And looking around and seeing people that looked like the people she grew up with. I thought that was a really telling statement, and also talking about how these people who she had grown up thinking like her parents, that government had nothing to do with them and no interest and they had no interest in government, that they were being heard. And she related to that, and she could see the appeal of Trump. But also, I mean, a multiple times she talked about how, you know, I didn’t like everything that was going on, it was really not all from me. But there were certain things where I really believed people around me were acting in the best interest of the country. And actually, I think she’s probably, you know, I don’t think we give people enough credit for that who was in the Trump White House or were in the Trump agencies, and many of them were doing exactly what they thought was in the best interest of the country. And they recognize that Trump was maybe not a very good person, but this is what they thought was going on until they realized from whatever circumstances that it wasn’t, you know, and the thing with Mark Meadows was like, I thought, yeah, I guess she could have run to the FBI and said my boss’s throwing things into the fireplace. But she said, I certainly wasn’t in a position to tell Mark Meadows, right, what he should be doing. That’s not my job. And, you know, should she have run to the FBI? I don’t know, that might be asking an awful lot.

Chris Beem And you have, you know, people who have, you know, she, somebody at one point in the talk, someone asked her, How many Republicans do you really think believe, for example, that the the election was stolen? And she joked, and she said four. And that means there’s an awful lot of Republicans in his White House and elsewhere who are lying who are not representing their beliefs accurately. And that is a good explanation for how we, how we are where we are?

Michael Berkman Well, I was struck by her, you know, somewhat idealistic belief that it’s all going to be okay. You know, so she talks about the people that are really caught up in all of these lies, and, you know, the hardest of the hardcore and kind of thinks about reaching out to them. And I mean, my thought was, these people are never coming back to reality. They are so immersed in a world of disinformation. Yeah, at this point, that they’re gone. And, but she doesn’t, you know, she believes they can be brought back in, believes they should be brought back in.

Michael Berkman Right. And, yeah, and she believes The Republican Party can be rebuilt with Adam Kinzinger. And her and, and Liz Cheney, Liz Cheney, and some others like that,

Chris Beem I  guess I come down kind of between the two of you, I do think is possible. But I think it’s an enormous task that’s in front of us. And it’s going to take a long time. But long time or short time, whatever, you know, I kind of hope we get there. But regardless, you know, I think all of us who who met Cassie, over her time here, came away with just being so impressed with you know, you can always talk about poise, but in terms of her articulate pneus, her honesty, her self criticism. These are noble things for any human being, but they’re especially good for someone who calls themselves a democratic citizen. So for that reason, I think we’re all all in our debt. And I’d like to encourage you to read her book if you haven’t. Anyway, lots to chew on. For Democracy Works. I’m Chris Beem.

Michael Berkman I’m Michael Berkman.

Chris Beem Thanks for listening.