Marc Cuiriz 0:11Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Geek Therapy radio where we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. I am one of your wonderful co hosts Marc Cuiriz and joined with me tonight is Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:30Hey

Marc Cuiriz 0:32and Josué Cardona.

Josué Cardona 0:34What’s up?

Marc Cuiriz 0:35Hello guys.

Josué Cardona 0:36Hello.

Marc Cuiriz 0:37The time has finally come. We we got to we got to talk about across a spider verse. We already knew Spider Man was going to be coming up I talked about it a couple episodes ago briefly. tried really hard to not go too much into it. But now we got to go into it.

Josué Cardona 0:58i It was my fault. I it took me a while to watch it. Finally. I hadn’t gone to the theater since the last Spider Man movie that came out. That was actually the last time I went to the movies was for no way out. No way. Oh, no way home.

Lara Taylor 1:14Spider Spider Man book ends on your movie theater experience.

Josué Cardona 1:18Yep.

Marc Cuiriz 1:21So I think I just want to know what what were your initial thoughts, feelings, reactions, emotions. All the good stuff. Lara, what do you think of the movie?

Lara Taylor 1:34It’s been longer since I’ve seen the movie since? Well, since Josué at least cuz I saw it opening weekend. I loved it. I thought there was a lot of good, good meaty, juicy Geek Therapy stuff in there. I cried a lot during the movie. And I have been talking with clients about it a lot. There’s a lot of cool stuff in there. I have a friend who is obsessed, watched it like last week and is like texting me constantly like novels about what his thoughts on this movie are. But again, did not disappoint. My only complaint is that it’s a two parter. And I have to wait for all the things.

Josué Cardona 2:20spoilers. It’s a part one. I’m glad that they they decided not to call it the cross a spider as part one and two, which was the original.

Lara Taylor 2:32I liked like into a cross and beyond, like, I like that.

Josué Cardona 2:36Yeah, it’s cool. I love the first one. So of course, like I had to. I wanted to see this one as soon as possible. There’s a lot of things that I like about this movie. But my overall impression was that I found it overwhelming. Like,

Lara Taylor 2:56there’s a lot like you have pause to be able to see.

Josué Cardona 3:01Yeah,

Lara Taylor 3:01hundreds of hundreds of Spider Men’s

Josué Cardona 3:04like, like I was telling someone the other day about this. I was like, yeah, if you just want to focus on like, no, like, there’s a lot there’s a lot going on, and then everything that makes it so cool visually, which are the different styles again, like I don’t know why I just came out of theater, like, exhausted. Like, I think part of it is to that for the last few years. I I rarely sit down to watch a movie from beginning to end. At that day, I did a double feature like I went to two movies. And this one

Lara Taylor 3:38two multiverse movies. Yeah, I think are exhausting too.

Josué Cardona 3:43Yeah, yeah. But But yeah, by the end of it, I was like, I felt like I like my brain had gotten beat up. It was it was it was a lot. A lot a lot. But did I like it? Oh yeah. Love it. I can’t wait to get into the the be the best reasons why.

Marc Cuiriz 4:05Yeah, I I’m like Lara, I saw it opening night and I I walked away from that movie. One, just completely taken away. I loved the movie so much. I loved all the different art styles. I really liked how they did like Gwen’s like perspective of things and like how that a lot of it was focused on her development as well. And I also walked away surprised because I know like at the end when they you know, do like, oh, the return or whatever. It’s a 2024 I was like, wow, okay, next year, I’m here for it. And then of course, you know, you hear the news later, they’re like, no, no, we have to push it back to like 2026 which I’m like, okay, that’s totally fine. But

Josué Cardona 4:59is that true

Marc Cuiriz 4:59also

Lara Taylor 5:00That one actually might not be true.

Marc Cuiriz 5:02Yeah, I mean, either way, I think it’s going to be delayed to

Lara Taylor 5:07writers strike and all of that can also move things

Marc Cuiriz 5:09Exactly.

Lara Taylor 5:10Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 5:11But I know they were talking about potentially delaying it to 2026 to make sure everything is flushed out and is the best, you know, and there are words the best it can be. Because if they were to try to pump that movie out by 2024, I have a feeling a lot of people would be disappointed. But,

Lara Taylor 5:33yeah, I saw I saw the same kind of thing online that said that it was going to be delayed till 2026. And then somebody was like, this is fake and showed like details on why that post was fake. But other people are saying that, that are in that are like animators are saying there’s no way it’s going to be in 2024. But it’s still scheduled to come out March 2024.

Josué Cardona 5:59Yeah, that’s what that’s what that’s what I still see. Anyway, that’s not what the show is about.

Lara Taylor 6:05That’s how excited we are about it, we want the next one right now.

Josué Cardona 6:08So disappointed. Oh, I can’t wait that long.

Lara Taylor 6:13Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 6:15But no, this movie, this, I think this movie was definitely though, is, is very overwhelming. And it’s definitely one where I’m gonna want to watch it back and like, pause it at certain points or like, try to slow it down at certain points, just so that way I can try to take in everything. And because I feel like especially in the moments where it didn’t show like all the Spider Men, I was like, looking around the entire screen trying to find ones that I recognized, but also ones that like I felt like should be in there. Like a one in particular that is just would have just been a funny little like, gag, to me, was the Spooder Man meme. Or it’s like the poorly drawn Spider Man, I was looking all over for it just so I can say like, Yes, I saw it. It’s there. It’s confirmed,

Josué Cardona 7:04there’s a whole other movie.

Marc Cuiriz 7:06I know.

Josué Cardona 7:07Three hours for you.

Marc Cuiriz 7:10It may or may not make its appearance. But like I just remember I was like looking around everywhere. Just trying to take it all in and like the sequences especially are going by so fast. That it’s it’s impossible without having to like pause it and like taking a look around and like giving yourself a moment to process everything that’s going on. In short scenes.

Lara Taylor 7:33One of my clients told me, I feel bad for whoever is going to have to do the easter egg videos for for this movie. and I agree.

Josué Cardona 7:44The easter egg video is coming out in 2026.

Lara Taylor 7:47That’s the one that’s gonna be delayed

Josué Cardona 7:48that’s the one delayed yeah yeah, no, no, it was it was a lot. And I think maybe because we’re fans like it was more overwhelming for me, because it wasn’t just noise. I was like, oh, no, those are like, actual characters.

Lara Taylor 8:04I want to know who they are.

Josué Cardona 8:06Yeah, yeah. or I Recognize them. Yeah. And I was like, oh,

Marc Cuiriz 8:12yeah, I found myself after the movie. Trying to like I was like, on wikis. And I was like, looking up ones that I knew. And then trying to like, I was like, Okay, I remember this one look like that. So I was looking at pictures. And then I was trying to find it. And then I was just going down a rabbit hole of like reading about all these different variations of spider man and everything like that. And I was like, this is this is too much. This is a lot.

Josué Cardona 8:36Yeah, yeah. And the subject matter was also

Marc Cuiriz 8:41Oh, 100%. Yeah, like I know, a couple of weeks ago, I talked a little bit about one of the big themes that I I saw during the film, which was kind of like, kind of coming into your own and kind of like establishing like your own identity and who you are, and kind of letting yourself being able to tell your own story and things like that, instead of having other people try to tell you what your life should be like or things like that. And it was definitely one that like, I feel like, hits home for a lot of people, myself included, of like, you feel like your whole life, you have to live up to other people’s expectations, or, you know, other people are trying to tell you how you’re supposed to live your life or you’re supposed to do things a certain way and things like that. And sort of being able to come into your own and say like, no, no, no, like, this is my life. This is my story. This is I’m going to do things however, I want to do them and no one’s going to be able to tell me otherwise. But also starting to understand just what exactly that means because initially that might sound great. But then you also think about the consequences and the ramifications potentially, of the choices that you do make as your own person. And as you come in and solidify who you are as a person, things like that.

Josué Cardona 10:14So how is that connected to the, to the movie.

Marc Cuiriz 10:18So like with Miles like he is growing up, like he’s becoming a teenager, he wants to do his own thing. And you see, like, you know, like in the first movie, he’s got a pretty good relationship with his mom, dad, things like that. And in this movie, like in the beginning, you’re starting to see the tensions go up between him and his parents, like he’s like, because he’s, I mean, in his case, he’s lying, because, you know, he’s spider man. And he’s, you know, doing all those antics and shenanigans. But because of that, lying, he’s creating tension he’s arguing with the more he’s talking back to them. And he is hiding things from them. And as any teenager would, you know, can kind of relate to and understand that as you grow up. And as you start trying to figure out who you are as an individual. Sometimes your parents might not, you feel like your parents or might not be able to understand what it is that you’re going through, or the situations you’re in. And so you lie, you keep those secrets, or, in some cases, you might sneak out and you might do things which creates problems and tensions. And that’s what’s going on with miles. And then that translates even more when he meets all these other different spider man when he goes to the, the the main area, the main hub of spider man. And they’re basically saying, like, you don’t belong here. Like, this is how a Spider Man story is supposed to go. And one, you disrupted one. So now we have to try to fix that. But to like, this is something that you’re not supposed to interfere with. They’re supposed to let this happen. And now that he’s a spider man, he has to experience his own, you know, Canon events, his own things, because that’s how it’s supposed to go. And you’re not supposed to let that change. And they’re trying to tell him that but he’s like, but no, like, our job is to save people and protect people. So why can’t I have both?

Lara Taylor 12:21I know, you want to talk about canon events. But one thing that was as you were talking that came up is something a thread that I’ve followed with a lot of people that I work with, and with friends of mine, about the idea that you talked about last time, when I wasn’t around the belonging and the like that this idea of the parents coming together are the parents and the kids being at odds and having to hide yourself because, you know, you’re not living up to their expectations, and you’re keeping these secrets and you’re figuring out who you are. A lot of people in the trans community are rallying around Gwen as a trans icon and are hoping, I don’t know if they’re gonna go this far, but hoping that they’re going to have her become a trans be a trans character. There’s this moment where she’s talking with her dad and talking about this is who I am. And this is who I’m going to be, and this big moment, and she is washed in trans colors, which to be fair, are her colors pink and blue and white, but the people in the community are like, no, they emphasized it even more in that exact moment when she stood up for herself. And sometimes her blue can look kind of green, and they made it very blue, like trans blue. And she also has a protect trans kids poster on her wall in the in the movie. And I just think it’s really cool that this whole community is like, decided and superhero movies are like this. And stories are like this anyway, we see it with X Men, and it’s been like this with Spider Man before but this idea that you have to mask who you are and hide who you really are around others because of the danger around you. And then somebody stands up for themselves. And I think it’s really cool that the community has done this. But, yeah, yeah,

Josué Cardona 14:18one of the cool things about superpowers is that we don’t none of us have superpowers. So they can, they can be metaphorical for for different things and you can relate to having, you know, the power can be a particular experience or, or something else. And the colors thing. I mean, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s deliberate.

Lara Taylor 14:41I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t either. Yeah. Especially since it’s in that same timeframe is when you see the protect trans kids sign over the door.

Josué Cardona 14:51Yeah.

Lara Taylor 14:52Yeah. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 14:58I know this isn’t where the episode was gonna go. But I’m curious. Would it? What if they don’t address it directly?

Lara Taylor 15:16I’ve had this conversation with friends, mostly that I think it would still be okay. That ambiguity. I have some people that are like, no, it needs to be. It needs to be clear. But other people are like, I’m fine with the ambiguity. No one’s telling me she’s not. So in my head, she can be. Right. So, I think that the piece that people are finding someone, especially in this time, where there’s so much turmoil about how people view trans people having a character like that in a very popular movie that they can say, That’s me. I think that’s great. Whether they at the studio actually comes out and says something, but the amount of representation in this movie, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was, if it was deliberate that they did that. I think, even if they don’t come out and say it, I think that it was deliberate to in that moment, watch her in those colors, whether she’s supposed to be trans or not.

Josué Cardona 16:28Yeah, yeah. And so when we are, the episode that we did around, into the spider verse is one of the favorite one of my favorite ones that we were done. Because at that time, there was a trend on social media about spider Sonas. And people are drawn drawing their own, like themselves,

Lara Taylor 16:53I have mine on my desk, and I moved.

Josué Cardona 16:58And it was so fun, like, we each it. So what we did, right, each of us drew, Marc, this was before your time,

Marc Cuiriz 17:04I remember the episode.

Josué Cardona 17:05So I was Brandon, right. And so we made these, and we put them on social media. And it was, it was a lot of fun to create these versions of ourselves. And so it seems that the trend happening now around the movie. Marc, you were explaining to us before the show before, before we started recording, is this idea of canon events. And so like you were, but um, it’s interesting, because everything you were saying. So let me let me see if I get if I understand what canon events are, according to how people are using it, you correct me if I get it wrong, but it’s this idea of identity defining or life defining events, that would happen. So in it’s almost like changing the idea of like, like when people say like, this is my villain, my villain origin story, right? Or like, this is my origin story. It’s kind of like this is they’re, they’re using Canon event in place of that. In the movie, Canon event, they, there’s 1000s of them. So they talk about it as like what they all have in common. And so I’m curious, the trend is, is it just people in the singular saying like, Oh, this is, this is my Canon event. This is like, what made me who I am? Or is it like, me, and everybody liked me all have this event in common?

Marc Cuiriz 18:32I think it’s more like the first one where it’s okay. Yeah, it’s more of like, this is me as an individual. This is this is what my event is, that this is the defining trait. And, you know, I’ve seen different variations of it on tik tok of, you know, ones that are, you know, kind of jokey, you know, they have random explanations, things like that. But I definitely feel like it is a topic or like a thing that can be addressed in a lot of different ways to kind of have somebody sort of explain how exactly they’re viewing themselves, or what the, what events in their life that they view as the most important and what what has defined them or made them who they are as, as a person are what set them on the path that they ended up choosing in life, things like that. Obviously, those events can be both positive and negative. But I think like that’s an interesting thing to kind of explore with people of like, well, what what are your cannon events? What are the things in life that you think have the most significance to you as an individual that made you be or made you go down the path that you chose to go down as a as a person?

Josué Cardona 19:49This is confusing for me, right? Like, like the, the terminology and I’ve explained this to many people in the past as well. So I want to make sure we do that here because it might be helpful for you which is, in fiction, when you talk about something that is canon. There’s canons of being like the official.

Lara Taylor 20:11Right, like if you had a rulebook if you had a rulebook for that world, that story, the Canon things are the things that are that happened. And then everything else is like Extended Universe, or like, fanfic.

Josué Cardona 20:26Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And it’s weird, right? It’s like, so who is the author of the canon? Right? Or in the case of Star Wars, right? Star Wars canon changed? At some point?

Lara Taylor 20:41The person, the company, the corporation that owned it changed

Josué Cardona 20:45Yep. And they said, Okay, Canon is now this and all these other things are stories that were told, but they’re not real. They don’t influence the future. One of my my favorite things that has happened in recent years is the retconning. Right of these multiverses, right, where suddenly, all the DC shows and movies are all part of the deal. You know, they’re all connected, then Marvel the same way. Right? Like, in in no way, no way home? In no way home, right? Where it’s like, oh, all of these spider men exist in the same place. And like in this movie, right? There’s, there’s all of these different characters who, even though we never thought that they were now according to, you know, the rulebook they all exist in kind of in the same multiverse. And so I like that, like the this is, this is, these are the rules. This is the official thing. There can be other stories, but they’re not necessarily. They’re, like in anime. This one. This one is confusing. Me too. So, and a lot of anime. Not all, but a lot of anime are based on manga. And then the, their anime that are considered there are some episodes that are considered canon, because they they are telling the story that was in the manga. And then, as you’re producing the anime, sometimes the the manga, is moving slower than the anime. So then the anime gets to a point where it’s covered all of the manga so far, and it has to continue, while waiting for more of the manga to be written. So then they create filler, what they call filler episodes, which are continued stories, you’re still telling stories. But they will never influence the main story. It is so weird to watch filler and have that in your mind where like, oh, none of this actually matters. Because they will never reference it. It will none of these characters will die. They will have no significant events here. Because this show follows the the manga canon, and so they can’t, they just can’t do anything. And it’s weird, because a lot of those stories are a lot of fun. And like incredibly well done. But then when you when you look back, you’re like, oh, yeah, none of that matters. It’s very, it’s very strange. But yeah, I hope I’ve explained canon in a traditional sense, well,

Lara Taylor 23:19so in this in the movie, they’re explaining canon events as the events that are primary to your life to a person’s life to the Spider Man’s life, quote, unquote, Spider Man. Spider people. Um, what I think is really interesting is this idea of figuring out what are the events that changed who you are changed your trajectory in life is something that I do with clients, we do timelines, and like, look at what are these pivotal moments that you remember? Good and bad, right? What are the things that make you? What are the things that are pivotal to you that you remember most? Those are their cannon events, the ones that have imprinted on them so much. I think for me, one of my earliest ones is probably my first trip to Disneyland that I can remember when I tried to go on the Matterhorn and that screwed me up and I didn’t go on that ride till I was nine when I tried to go on the ride. I didn’t go on again till I was 21. So that happened. And then of course, we’ve talked about a million times like my mom’s death is a big piece of who I’ve become, and where I’ve gone. And that started don’t me on a trajectory of like my first day at camp, which is another piece and then that started me I think about these things. If this hadn’t happened, then all these other things in my life wouldn’t have happened I’d be in a very different place. So I think those are the canon events that you could argue that that’s canon events, but also like the thing Throughout your life, what are the things that are the pivotal things that you remember those like moments that have been imprinted in your brain?

Josué Cardona 25:12I was I was struggling with how are we going to talk about this? In terms of relatability? Because real life, like, everything is canon in real life, right? Like everything that happened to you actually happen to you. I mean, we can get into a whole thing about human memory, being garbage and all that, you know, but they use

Lara Taylor 25:34Canon slightly differently than we think of canon

Josué Cardona 25:37No, of course, writing the story writing the movie, it’s completely different. That’s why I’m saying like, in our, in our lives, if we’re saying like, what is canon? It’s like, all those things. Like, it’ll happen, right? If we’re looking at it as like, what’s, what counts and what doesn’t count. But, and Marc, you can use this one, because I hadn’t thought about it this way. But I like this as the potential intervention is, if you could retcon something out of your out of your past. Right? Like, how would that affect your future? Maybe like, you talked about the the timelines piece, right? If you look at all those events, and they’re, yeah, like, you your mom’s death is the thing that really happened, you’ll never retcon one, right? But maybe there’s another experience, right? Like a bad experience. So you could just be like, Damn, I’m not gonna, like, I don’t want that one to define me, you know, and that’s like, oh, that inspires you to like, work through a particular trauma, or do certain exercises or make a change in your life, right? Like, I’m not gonna let this particular thing define who I am the future. And like, letting go of that. Within this framing, I think, I think I think works.

Lara Taylor 26:44And some trauma modalities, you look at narrative therapy, or you look at cognitive processing therapy, your The idea is to change how you think about that event. So even if you can’t retcon something big, and can get it out of there completely, you can think about you can change how you’re thinking about it and how you tell the story to yourself

Josué Cardona 27:05all CBT is based on that

Lara Taylor 27:06Exactly, exactly. Yeah, we can’t just wish away or think away a bad thing that has happened to us. But we can definitely think about it differently. And even if it’s so hard to think about, and it was still a difficult thing, like we can take ownership of that story. And Josué you brought up who’s telling the story who’s making the canon, you make the canon, not some other person, you’re making your own canon. So I like I like that it plays this whole idea of canon events. And this plays into a lot of things that are basic, like timelines that can apply to most modalities, but also like CBT RBT. Narrative Therapy. I mean, I mentioned Cognitive Processing Therapy. That’s a form of CBT. So yeah,

Josué Cardona 27:52I have another view, watch the movie Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Lara Taylor 27:57It has been a very long time. But yes.

Josué Cardona 27:59Have you ever seen it Marc?

Marc Cuiriz 28:01I’ve I’ve heard of it. And I’ve had people tell me to watch it. I just have never gotten around to it. But I know about the movie.

Josué Cardona 28:06Yeah. So the premise is right, that this, this guy has a really bad breakup. And he can’t stop thinking about about his ex. So he goes to a doctor, Dr. Bruce Banner, and he who has a machine where he can like delete memories from your mind. And he’s like, I don’t want to remember this person. y’know, It’s like, that’s it’s a fun movie idea. But it’s hard to do. But the idea, right, but this idea of canon like nah, that was a filler episode, that doesn’t impact the overall story. Like this, you can use that one, Marc and everybody

Marc Cuiriz 28:41I was I was totally thinking about that. Because I was like, Yeah, you know, like, there are things where you can, like, yes, everything is canon. And even filler can be canon. But it doesn’t mean it has any sort of

Josué Cardona 28:53What do you mean, filler can be canon?

Marc Cuiriz 28:55I’m not saying that like it is I’m saying like, I think in some ways, I think in some cases that like, in the sense we’re filler has no like significance to the contributing story. You can say like, oh, yeah, that episode had happened it you know, it did a thing. But that doesn’t mean it has any impact into what the actual, what the actual story is, or who you are like, Yeah, okay. Yeah, it happened. But it doesn’t mean like it’s a defining story or an arc or anything like that. Like, the one that kind of comes to mind is like, a Dragonball Z with Gohan when he’s doing his training stuff. Before Vegeta comes like way early on in the series, all that training stuff where he’s like, going off on adventures, things like that. It’s all filler has absolutely no significance to the story whatsoever. But it’s still stuff that you can say yeah, that happened. Gohan did go through all of that. But that doesn’t mean it plays any sort of significance into what the main story actually is.

Josué Cardona 29:57garlic JR never happened.

Marc Cuiriz 30:00I don’t even talk about garlic. Sorry, I just heard about Gohan. All right. I’m not saying every filler has to be canon. Okay?

Josué Cardona 30:06Just just because I mean, this is, this is the type of podcast where we can do this, there is something called anime canon.. Which means that the, there’s still like the the manga, Canon and filler. But then there’s, there are some episodes that are considered anime canon, which is from from this point forward, the anime has chosen to adopt a particular feature. And, and continue that. So and in a way I think part of that can also be like where filler connects to other filler from the past. So there’s, yeah, that’s not helpful to this conversation I just wanted to make sure

Lara Taylor 30:46you’re just clarifying,

Marc Cuiriz 30:47yeah, yeah

Josué Cardona 30:48I don’t want anybody to say Hey, you forgot to talk about and yes, there’s mixed canon episodes. But that’s, that’s another that’s another level. Talk about that later.

Marc Cuiriz 30:57That I feel like that’s more for otaku ryoho

Josué Cardona 31:00yeah, yep. Yep, yep. Okay, so you, Marc, you were saying? And And I’m curious, like, because I think we’re like diverging at one point where you were focused on how the world tries to tell you how to do things, right? Or there are expectations, and you can make different choices. And then I think that’s a part of it. But I didn’t think of that at all during the movie. I was thinking about it, in the sense of these are things that have to happen to you, like that happened to you and not that you do. Right. And again, I think it’s just like, where, where we are in our lives and the things, right, this is this is the beauty of it. But that’s what I was constantly thinking about. It was I’ll go into a rant now I’m gonna I’m gonna rant on noise. We need we need

Lara Taylor 31:55like a, we need like

Josué Cardona 31:57a timer?

Lara Taylor 31:58a sound deck for like, track for like, Josué rants.

Josué Cardona 32:03Just let me just give me Yeah, give me put a timer on. I went when no way home came out. I I’ve never loved and hated a movie so much in my life, because I enjoyed it thoroughly. And then it gets to the point where this topic comes up, right? It’s like, it’s like, all of these things. And it’s the conversation happened mostly outside of the movie, but it’s it’s the basis, you know, it inspires what happens in the movie. Like, he has to go through all of these, Peter Parker has to go through these horrible things. He has to lose everything. Because that’s what’s what Spider Man’s do they suffer? And that is it isn’t mentioned that way in the movie, per se in the movie. It’s more setup of like, there’s no other choice. Like I don’t know how else to fix this. You know, Dr. Strange is like, I don’t know how to fix this. This is the way you lose everything, but bothered me was the reaction from fans. Afterwards saying, finally. Finally, he gets to suffer. Tom Holland’s Peter Parker had it too easy. You had a too easy all this time. It wasn’t believable that he could be a hero, because he hadn’t had all this pain and loss. That infuriated me. And then the Marvel Gods answered my prayers and made across the spider verse. And the whole movie is based around this idea of an entire universe of spiders. I don’t not all people either. I was thinking about that. I was like spider man. Yeah, spider ham.

Lara Taylor 33:42Oh, there’s also spider dog. There’s like there’s a cat.

Josué Cardona 33:45not all people

Marc Cuiriz 33:46Yeah, there’s also peni. I mean, the spider itself is the radioactive ones She’s not actually bitten. She just controls the Mech.

Josué Cardona 33:54Yeah. So so all these spiders. And the idea that they’re just like, ah, you know, like, that’s just that’s just what happens like your father, uncle parent, somebody is a captain. Captain is gonna die. And then that’s like, that’s how you become Spider Man. And this is a character who that’s not his story. It’s not exactly that. And he refuses to just let it happen because he doesn’t have to let it happen. Right. And they’re almost forcing him to let it happen

Lara Taylor 34:29as a chance to fix it.

Josué Cardona 34:32I mean, I would I don’t know that. That’s true. I’m, I’m guessing knows.

Lara Taylor 34:37he knows all about this before the canon event happens. Yeah, most of the other I can’t say all because there are probably 1000s. But yeah, the examples they gave us. Everybody else didn’t know that their quote unquote captain had to die until after it happened.

Josué Cardona 34:56Yeah, yes. Yeah. So he

Lara Taylor 34:58is the one who has a chance to change it. I know there’s something with like, why can’t I remember? I can’t remember your name, Miguel, that he changed the canon event and the world died. Right? And so there’s that fear that that that will that you do that that’s gonna that’s gonna happen again and fixing timelines and universes and all of that. But other than that situation, nobody has really known about these things right before it happens as far as we know, right?

Josué Cardona 35:35Yeah, yeah

Lara Taylor 35:36so but now the kid that wasn’t supposed to be Spider Man is gonna screw it all up, you know?

Josué Cardona 35:44yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 35:45but he has this option, which is so cool to watch play out. Because none of us know what is gonna happen before it happens.

Josué Cardona 35:57Yeah, I think I think they’re still right. You’re right. Miguel knew before. GWEN knows now.

Lara Taylor 36:04Yeah.

Josué Cardona 36:05Before, and but she didn’t do anything necessarily to make it change. It changed though. Right? And so

Lara Taylor 36:13that’s true yeah

Josué Cardona 36:14but just like, but Miguel knows. Like, they have the ability to know and I’m just gonna get some somebody right. But some of them because like, there’s just like this, this feeling and some of those conversations. It’s like, Hey, man, you gotta let it happen. You know, like, sorry, you know, I mean, they knew about the the spider man from India. Right the like, that was gonna happen and

Lara Taylor 36:37his design he is wonderful character I love him so much.

Josué Cardona 36:41Yeah. 100%. Yeah. There’s so infuriating to me this idea. Right? But I love that the protagonist of the movie, right? The point in this movie is that he is fighting against that. But he’s like, firstly, they didn’t even mention the fact that like, he’s already a pretty decent Spider Man, trained by multiple Peter Parker’s. And he wasn’t really trained by the first one who died. But but Right. Like he’s got. He’s been trained, he’s got a whole bunch of stuff, right. And he’s and the fact that in the movie, they make the point that he is not. And he realizes that he is not a hero. Because of what he suffered. He’s a hero because of the love and teachings of his parents and like, their support, like they, they raised him in a way where he’s like, he, his sense of right and wrong, is what helps him be the spider man that he is, right. And so again, this feels like a big F U to no way home. And that idea that, like, you gotta you gotta just take everything away from or you got to, you got to let this person die otherwise, and the idea that not only, like, it messes up everything, like we all have to have this in common. Which is, which is a big, like, it’s such an interesting idea, right? Look, if you want to be one of us, you have to do this, right? It’s like an initiation of some sort. It’s like, if you don’t, if you didn’t have that experience, you’re not really one of us, and it kind of ruins our vibe. Although in the movie, it’s like the vibe is the, the the fabric of reality, or whatever it is that keeps them all connected. So yeah, so I I love the fact that this movie completely goes against that, those, those conversations around like both, you know, you can’t really be Spider Man if you don’t have all of this other stuff. And Miles does this at multiple levels, right? He’s black, he’s Hispanic, he lives in Queens. He’s and then all these other things, right? Like there’s many different things about miles that are different from Peter Parker. And he doesn’t have to also from just a storytelling perspective, like how boring would it be? If the if Peter Parker’s replacement, like just has all the same things? He has an uncle named Ben who dies and he you know, etc, etc. You have all the same events happening. I think I think I appreciate this very much. I Like that message. All right, back to you, Marc.

Marc Cuiriz 39:37Yeah, I I remember when we talked about no way home and I think I was one of those people that was like, you know, this is one of the things that I viewed as like a defining trait of Spider Man which is eternal suffering. But try but with this movie, it. I don’t think I related to a character more than I did relating to two miles like that,

Josué Cardona 40:11to miguel? you said?

Marc Cuiriz 40:14surprisingly, no. To miles of, of that idea of like, he’s like, Nah, you know what I’m gonna do my own thing, like, everyone’s telling me how my story is supposed to go. And they explain that, you know, this isn’t even supposed to be his story. And yet here it is, you know, he’s Spider Man, whether or not he was supposed to be Spider Man. At this point, it doesn’t matter. He is Spider Man. And, you know, he he’s trying so hard to say no, like, just because that happened to every single other Spider Man, that does not mean that it has to happen to him as well. And him taking that stand and saying no, this is this is my story, I’m going to be the one does to say how it’s supposed to go. I was like, damn. This, this right here is something that I feel like teenage Marc needed back in the day. Because I remember, you know, way back then, when I was a young teenager, of struggling with that, that notion of my own identity. And I often let it sort of be shaped and molded by the people in the environment around me, I lived for other people’s expectations of how they feel like I was supposed to be. And I was like, Well, this is how it’s supposed to be this is these are the rules that were set. This is how it’s supposed to go. I’m supposed to go through this. I’m supposed to deal with this or whatever. And I think seeing this now that I’ve gone through my own journey, my own healing all that stuff, and say seeing this happen as a person that’s like, who already feels like they don’t belong, and then taking that stand and saying, maybe I don’t. And that’s okay. Because I’m going to be the one to tell my own story. This is my life. And so I’m going to dictate it. And it’s okay that if I don’t, if I’m not part of the bigger group, that’s fine. Because that’s not what’s important to him, what’s important is him taking a stand and doing what he feels is right. And in this case, for him, it’s, he’s gonna want to save his dad. And he’s not gonna let other people say, no, he’s got to die. And then he’ll just like, alright, you right, and then he just sits back and watches that happen, like, you know, he’s not going to do that. He feels like he’s embodied what Spider Man is supposed to be, which is if you can do something, if you can save a person, but you need to make sure that you can do everything you can to save them or to help them. And that’s what he’s gonna want to do. He wants to be the embodiment of the spider men that he trained with, that he looked up to growing up, all that sort of stuff. Even if it means he’s got to go against what they’ve dictated, as are the rules or the canon events that need to happen.

Josué Cardona 43:41Before recording, we were talking about Rational Emotive behavior therapy, because, you know, why wouldn’t we? And Albert Ellis, he there were a few things that he said that I think about all the time, they sold T shirts with this stuff he used to say this and conferences, he would say don’t ‘should’ yourself and stop ‘must’turbating. So it takes nothing must be a particular way should will also gets you in trouble. Right? That belief that it has to be a particular way is limiting and can be and can be unhealthy at times because then we don’t accept things that have happened. Right. There’s a there’s there’s that the classic interview with the Albert Ellis says with a with a patient, that the one that makes everybody think he’s an asshole, right,

Lara Taylor 44:41the Gloria videos yeah,

Josué Cardona 44:45she’s like, Oh, my sister died. She shouldn’t have died. He’s like, but she did. You know, like, like, thinking that there was that it had to be a particular way and now it’s not is why you’re suffering right now because you believe You that it has to be one particular way. Right? Like, really? It’s Miguel that we’re seeing in the movie, who’s like

Lara Taylor 45:07it has to be this way

Josué Cardona 45:08the way it has to be it must be this way. And he’s convinced other people. And I think I’m, I’m coming back around to you to your point. Now Lara, right. Like, because really how many people would actually be like? Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. I guess my dad’s dying of like, Cool. Cool, cool, cool. Yeah, I’ll just be over here. You know, like, they all find out kind of after the fact and just accept the fact that like, oh, yeah, without that, I wouldn’t be who I am. I guess that’s the way it goes. And, and miles does seem to be the first one that they’re, like, actively trying to keep away from the knowledge of all of this, right. Gwen’s like, it’s really, you know, like, small, exclusive club. He just shows up. He’s like, what? He’s actually the only one that’s not invited.

Lara Taylor 45:59Yeah, yeah. That whole thing too, with, like, I look back on my life, and it helps me to look back on my life. Yes, my mom dying did change my life and did like, you know, put this trajectory, I don’t have the ability to go back and change things. And But moving forward, I can make my choices and do things in a way. Like I can’t predict the future, but I can do my my actions, I can fight to change things and fight to change how I think about things and how I work toward my goals. And I talk with clients about that all the time. The idea that like, well, worrying and suffering about the past is one thing, right. And this is not to discount people’s, like traumas and things like that. But it’s like, unless we can do something about it, right now, to end this mostly when someone has done something or not done something. Unless we’re going to do something now to kind of fix things, all we can do is learn from that and move forward. So like we we don’t have the power to go back in time and fix the things like we would in many superhero movies, or sci fi movies. But this is this is the past for the future you that you can change things now to go ahead and make the future better. So yeah,

Josué Cardona 47:25this is where I think it, it’s helpful to bring up something like The Flash movie that just came out other other time travel movies that play with the idea of if you go back and change one thing, like one moment, that can have a rippling effect moving forward. Like, sure, if this person hadn’t died, if this hadn’t this thing hadn’t happened, you, you might be a very different person, because many different things would have happened. To your point like you can’t go back into that. So I think that even the exercise of going back and saying, like, oh, what would it? How would it be different? Like what would happen? I don’t think that that’s necessarily a healthy exercise. Because why you? First of all, it’s all bullshit because you had, you’d have no idea. You would just be thinking, you’d either be catastrophizing or idealizing. Right? You’d be like, oh, you know, everything would be better.

Lara Taylor 48:23I only like to go back with clients and look at what has happened when it’s like, an argument with a partner, like, what could you have done differently? Because you can implement that in the future, but likely the death of a parent? No, I’m not gonna look back and see what is different I have in the past, but now it’s like, I’m not gonna look back and see what would be different because this is the person I am now. Now, would I if I had the ability to go back in time, would I go back and change things? I don’t know. Because I wouldn’t want my future. I like my my life right now. I don’t know if I would change the future. But if my mom were alive today, you bet I would fight my fight tooth and nail to keep her around. So that’s the kind of thing and that’s my, my dad has health issues. I’m fighting tooth and nail to keep him around. You know, it’s it’s that thing, but like, you can change the future, but you definitely can’t change the past. So unless it’s something you need to apologize for, but you can’t change what you did.

Josué Cardona 49:20There’s a lot there cannot go into the past. This is true. Exploring like how things will be different. It’s a better reframe, like you said to say, what can we learn from that to then when the opportunity comes up again? What can we do differently? You can’t use that for everything, right? It’s not like No, it wouldn’t be it wouldn’t be our our mother’s deaths. It would be how we reacted to it or what we did afterwards, right? And then the idea of changing this idea that you can change the future right? The

Lara Taylor 50:01cuz you don’t know what the future is, we don’t know what it is

Josué Cardona 50:03right, I’m not disagreeing with you, I want to I want to go like a little deeper and more specific. And just also acknowledge that like, just a lot of things that you cannot change.

Lara Taylor 50:12Right

Josué Cardona 50:13Right, we can change how we react to things, we can change how we can, we can’t control what other people do.

Lara Taylor 50:19Like, we can change ourselves and how we like if I sat by and said nothing, when someone I care about is doing something dangerous for them to themselves, I would feel horrible. So now I say something, right? That kind of thing. That comes from my own trauma with my mom’s past, but like, sitting back and not saying anything is not doing anything, I have the option, I can’t force them to take care of themselves. But I can do my part to make it known. so that I can feel good about what I have done, and that I tried my best. You know, that’s a thing that’s possible, but we don’t know what’s going to happen. I mean, there’s certain situations where that works. Literally, I say my dad has health issues, he could walk outside the door and get hit by a car, I can’t change that. But there are things that we can do. Like, I can try my best to get out of unhealthy thinking patterns. Anybody can do that. I can try my best to eat better. I can try my best to exercise a little bit more. You know, during my week, those are things we can do. That does impact the future. I just talked to somebody to a lot of people today about it’s okay to half ass something we can half ass something something is better than nothing. And I think in this situation in the movie, miles isn’t gonna half ass it but he’s doing something to try his future. Yeah. Better rather than sitting back and letting it happen. Yeah. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 50:24When my mom was was sick, there was a time when it was really, really hard for me to not be able to help her. I felt helpless. And then I was just very angry about that. And then once I remember it, like, oh, yeah, I can’t force her to do anything that she doesn’t want to do.

Lara Taylor 52:23Yep.

Josué Cardona 52:24Um, then it switched from like,

Lara Taylor 52:27You did your best, right?

Josué Cardona 52:28Well, no, I completely like, I felt stupid for even trying so hard. Right? I was like, oh,

Lara Taylor 52:35knowing your mom knowing your mom,

Josué Cardona 52:36just knowing like people in general, right? It’s like, well, I can’t force anybody to do anything that they don’t want to do, or that they can’t like, you know, it’s it. I think it’s unfair to say to some about someone who is ill, whether physically or mentally, that they that it’s all willpower, and it’s all strength? Oh, you know, right. Like, it’s, they may not be able to do it. Right. So then my first frustration is mine, that I can’t move this immovable object. And, but then I changed it from I, I’m not going to regret having tried to help her, I’m going to regret not having spent more time with her.

Lara Taylor 53:12Correct.

Josué Cardona 53:13And so and so that’s what I focused on. Right, which is the only thing that I could really control is the, you know, making that effort and making making it possible to spend time with her as much as possible. That’s something I can control. I can try to make her more comfortable. That, you know, that stuff like that, but I couldn’t, I couldn’t cure her. And I couldn’t make her force her to do anything that in my mind would have been helpful for.

Lara Taylor 53:44Right.

Josué Cardona 53:45So yeah. And I think I think with me,

Lara Taylor 53:49the future because the alternate Josué would have kept fighting and been more frustrated and not had that quality time. Right.

Josué Cardona 54:02I deleted that variant in the entirety.

Lara Taylor 54:05Exactly.

Josué Cardona 54:06Yeah,

Lara Taylor 54:07exactly. Retconned out

Josué Cardona 54:11Yeah. But it’s funny

Lara Taylor 54:12it’s true because this is the Canon.

Josué Cardona 54:14I have two sisters. And they we all handle this extremely differently.

Lara Taylor 54:19As as happens.

Josué Cardona 54:20Yeah. Yeah. And it’s interesting to see how they reflect now on the choices that they made. And the outcome and how we’re all in very different spots. Because of it. Yeah. Yeah. In a way it’s funny. I I got to the so for miles, his father’s death is not inevitable. But I think that in in miles is mind, miles, in Miguel’s mind it should be inevitable, right? Like it should, it should happen, but and so in a way, like, kind of there are times when you have to accept that something is inevitable, because otherwise you’re going to suffer through it. I don’t expect beyond the spider verse to have miles just step back and accept it. I expect him to fight and win and save his father. Otherwise gonna be pissed if the movie ends if the if the story of the two movies ends up being it’s what’s gonna happen it’s gonna happen like you get Did you just can’t stop certain things. I really doubt that that’s it. But

Lara Taylor 55:44it’ll be interesting to see what they do with it. Because video game miles doesn’t just dad does not there.

Josué Cardona 55:52That’s a different Yeah, that’s a different it’s a different

Lara Taylor 55:54it’s a different miles.

Josué Cardona 55:55Yeah. Peter didn’t even know his parents. Like they died when he was super, super small. And almost all versions. But like what we’re talking about, right? It’s like, I got to the point where I was like, Oh, I’m like, I had to accept that my mom was gonna die. Again, very different circumstances.

Lara Taylor 56:17Right. This is like you had, he has the chance to actually do something.

Josué Cardona 56:22Yeah, I guess that’s it, right.

Lara Taylor 56:24It’s not a medical thing. It is an injury that will happen. Right.

Josué Cardona 56:29But it’s interesting, because I think I think my mom’s death was very preventable. At multiple stages. She didn’t have cancer, like she gets. Yeah, it was. It was something that was extremely treatable. And the other day, I was talking to my sister and I had one of those not very healthy thoughts that, like, I had everything ready for my mom to come to Chicago at a good hospital. Like, we were just ready for it. And my mom was like, Yeah, I don’t know. Give me a give me a couple of months to think about it. And like, let me see. And the doctor that I was speaking to here, she was like, she doesn’t have a couple months to think about this. Like, the longer she waits, the harder it’s going to be. And I had to, again, like take a step back, kind of. Again, it’s not it’s not the same, right. But it’s because Miles’s dad doesn’t know that he’s going to die.

Lara Taylor 57:28his dad has no opportunity to do anything about this. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 57:32well he would if he knew, right, but he doesn’t know.

Lara Taylor 57:34Right, but he doesn’t.

Josué Cardona 57:35Yeah, my mom knew that she was, you know, of what she what she could do to change. But it’s still that that idea that I wasn’t until I accepted. What at some point became inevitable that I was able to be that I was able to enjoy the time with my mom that we had left even. Yeah, because before then I was just angry at the world. And her and myself and Marc, everybody.

Lara Taylor 58:07Well, if Miles is dead ends up dying in the next movie. miles better get a chance to like, tell him about being Spider Man. You have that truth with him? No, you know, fix the disconnect between the two of them. Otherwise, the story is gonna be very fucking sad.

Josué Cardona 58:28Yeah, seriously.

Marc Cuiriz 58:31Why can’t we just have a happy Spider Man story?

Josué Cardona 58:36Because eternal suffering

Marc Cuiriz 58:38like Peter,

Lara Taylor 58:39Peter B. Peter B. Parker is married to Mary Jane and has baby okay,

Marc Cuiriz 58:44exactly. Why can’t we have that? Like, can we just have more of that? Instead, we have spectacular spider man saying no, that’s the way it’s gotta be.

Josué Cardona 58:55Spectacular Spider Man thing. It’s gonna be

Marc Cuiriz 58:59we after like, they showed the little bits, like the little clips of everything like, spectacular Spider Man is there saying like, yeah, miles like this is kind of what has to happen.

Josué Cardona 59:09Which one’s spectacular Spider Man?

Marc Cuiriz 59:12I mean, it’s kind of hard for me to describe it without having the screen in front of me to show you but it was it wasn’t. You know about spectacular Spider Man the show?

Josué Cardona 59:24No, no, no, no, gotcha. I mean, I mean, yes. But I’ve, yeah, that character in particular was in the movie.

Marc Cuiriz 59:31Yes. He was one of the few that had like, he had like a couple of lines in it. And it was like the original actor, voice actor and everything, which is what a lot of people were really happy about because a lot of people viewed spectacular Spider Man as like one of the better Spider Man TV shows that ended up getting canceled. And then it was replaced with ultimate Spider Man.

Josué Cardona 59:57What was when when Doc Ock comes with Spider Man. What is he called?

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:02That’s superior spider-man

Josué Cardona 1:00:03superior Spider Man. That’s the one. Okay. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. That’s where I got. Yeah.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:08And they only call them the spectacular spider and because that was the name of the show. Was that spectacular?

Josué Cardona 1:00:14Okay, okay. Yep, that makes sense. So, got it. Yeah, even the live action ones were here. So it was Yeah. Everybody’s everybody’s in there.

Lara Taylor 1:00:24Everybody’s here.

Josué Cardona 1:00:26Everybody is here.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:28And I did like how Miguel references Tom Holland and Dr. Strange what that whole thing. But he referenced it as from Earth nine nine nine nine nine. But then in far from home Mysterio says that there Earth 616 And he came from Earth like 832 or something like that.

Josué Cardona 1:00:52But that was all a lie.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:54Which is why it’s like, okay, it’s cool, because I remember when I heard that, I was like, hold on, that’s not adding up. Yeah, that’s not that’s not that was the giveaway that. Yeah, I was like, huh, this is this a little sauce. But yeah, now it’s like no its 999999? Whatever.

Josué Cardona 1:01:09So prize, just a special effects. Artist, you

Lara Taylor 1:01:14Yep.

Josué Cardona 1:01:16Marc, was there anything else about this that like that we haven’t covered?

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:20i We honestly talked about a lot more than what I had originally wanted to talk about. I think like we we had a really good discussion about this. And it’s, it is definitely one that has, like, there’s a lot of thought there. There’s there’s a whole lot of other stuff there too. That we’ve all touched on a little bit. But I feel like this is overall was like the second big theme that I pulled from the movie.

Josué Cardona 1:01:48Yeah,

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:48aside from that, that feeling of belonging and you know, establishing your own identity and stuff like that.

Josué Cardona 1:01:55So before we go, I want to point out that we often joke that the three of us are the same person for a number of reasons. The irony of that is that we are very, very different people with very, very different lives and pasts. But do we have any Canon event that like unites our stories altogether? I’m curious.

Lara Taylor 1:02:24We’re in three different phases of being therapists. I’m just pointing that out.

Josué Cardona 1:02:29Yes. Yes, we are. Again, it’s like a where our timelines are not chronologically in sync, for example, Lara, you’re much older and you’re gonna be 40 this year?

Lara Taylor 1:02:43Oh. oh oh Josué

Josué Cardona 1:02:4420’s i’m still in my 30’s

Lara Taylor 1:02:45I’m a month older!

Josué Cardona 1:02:49decades between us,

Lara Taylor 1:02:51but that’s okay. Because link told us we’re all turning 40 this year.

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:55I feel it.

Josué Cardona 1:02:57Yeah. Yeah. feel it in my knees. So is there. Is there anything that we all have?

Marc Cuiriz 1:03:03Josué didn’t you say that your dad was the one who got you into gaming? Yeah, that was my dad.

Lara Taylor 1:03:10My mom was the one who got me into gaming

Josué Cardona 1:03:12I mean, it was both of them. Yeah. Yeah. They were both, I guess. Is that it? That’s our that’s our,

Lara Taylor 1:03:19this could take a long time. to compare our lifetime lines.

Josué Cardona 1:03:24They’re not there you go. Our parents. Our parents introduced us into video games when we were little. Then we all became therapists,

Lara Taylor 1:03:30here’s the thing. Here’s the thing. Canon events don’t have to involve the same person. Right can be Yeah, this is the captain, right?

Josué Cardona 1:03:39Yep. Yep. Yep. We are definitely. Yeah, all variants can be very different. I think. I think we’re all the same people. We’re definitely variants. Okay, that was it. Your parents introduce you into video games when? Or your therapist, welcome to the GT verse. We’re all connected by the thread. Together.

Lara Taylor 1:04:09I’m sure down the line, we’ll see something else too.

Josué Cardona 1:04:13There’s a few. There’s a few I can think of. Yeah, I’m not gonna bother. Thank you so much for joining us. Marc, Take us and take us home.

Marc Cuiriz 1:04:23Oh, my goodness. Thank everybody so much for joining us in this wonderful conversation into across the spider verse. Very, very lovely conversation to be had. If you guys would like to join down the conversation. The links to all of our spaces are in the show notes. Remember to geek out and do good. And we’ll be back next week.

Josué Cardona 1:04:51byeyayayaya is that how Link does it?

Lara Taylor 1:04:58mm BYE

Josué Cardona 1:05:00Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture to learn more about our mission and become a supporter visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller

• Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (2023)
• Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse (2018)
• Spider-Man: No Way Home (2021)
• Gwen Stacy
• Miles Morales
• Star Wars series
• Marvel Cinematic Universe (MCU)
• DC Extended Universe (DCEU)
• Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (2004)
• Peni Parker
• Miguel O’Hara
• The Flash (2023)

Conversation Topics:

* Narrative Therapy* Cognitive Processing Therapy / Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT)* Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy (REBT)* Change* Consequences* Cultural representation* Death* Difficult emotions* Family* Fear* Feeling alone* Finding Oneself/Identity Development* Honesty/Lies* LGBT Issues* Moral dilemma* Standing up for oneself* Sacrifice for others

Relatable Experience:

* Anticipation* Acceptance* Clarity/Understanding* Coming of age/Getting older* Death* Fear/Anxiety* Individuation* Loss (other than death)* New Life Event (New Rules)* Suffering* Separation* Trauma

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