On this episode, Dr. Robin Stern talks with Rachel Simmons, author of Odd Girl Out, a national bestseller that "ignited a long-overdue conversation about the hidden culture of female bullying."

Rachel is also the author of Odd Girl Speaks Out, The Curse of the Good Girl, and Enough As She Is.

Rachel is a "master facilitator and executive coach, she works for the world’s most innovative companies to design and deliver programs for women’s leadership development and gender equity.  She is renowned for translating social science research into accessible strategies with authenticity and humor, while creating a safe space to explore uncomfortable topics. Rachel serves on the faculty of the Google School for Leaders and is an associate with the firm Cultivating Leadership. After co-founding the national nonprofit Girls Leadership, she led the Phoebe Lewis Leadership Program at Smith College. Her writing has appeared in the The New York Times and Harvard Business Review, among many other publications. An ABC News Contributor for Good Morning America, Rachel is a recognized thought leader in the national media. She is a proud gay parent and lives in Western Massachusetts with her daughter and two rescue dogs."

Rachel and Robin discuss the inherrent gaslighting that occurs in bullying situations, in particular with girls ensnared in a dysfunctional friendship in which they are the target of a perpetrator who drags them along in the realtionship by gaslighting them, telling them that "everything is fine," while continuing to bully them. 

Rachel also touches on the changing role of women in the workplace, and the institutional and organizational bias that many women continue to face, that often manifests as gaslighting.  Often, organizations want to protect the norms while at the same time protecting their reputations as a "meritocratic" workplace. 

Rachel and Robin discuss the dynamic of how gaslighters often continue to gaslight becasue it works to control the gaslightee, and the gaslightee can often break free once they are able to objectively look at the situation and trust their own thoughts and actions. 

Rachel more recently has begun working with men within organizations to help them identify the hidden biases that affect how they interact with women in the workplace. As Rachel says, "most men want to do the right thing, they just don't know how to do it."

To read the full transcript of this episode and to hear other episodes, head over to robinstern.com.