Each year, Canadian homes and buildings—and the electricity generated to power them—release 111 million tonnes of greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions into the atmosphere. To limit the impact, the Government of Canada aims to reduce GHG emissions 40–45% by 2030, compared to levels in 2005. And heat pumps are emerging as a solution, increasing energy efficiency while cutting energy costs and lowering carbon emissions. Shawn Carr, Manager of Customer Experience at Hydro Ottawa, explains on thinkenergy episode 109.

Related links

• Shawn Carr, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/shawn-carr-6797b612/

• Canada Greener Homes Initiative: resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-initiative/24831"> https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/homes/canada-greener-homes-initiative/24831 

• Air Source Heat Pump Toolkit: resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558"> https://natural-resources.canada.ca/maps-tools-and-publications/tools/modelling-tools/toolkit-for-air-source-heat-pump-sizing-and-selection/23558

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.

Dan Seguin  00:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. Did you know that we spend more than 80% of our time indoors, whether it's at home, work, school, shopping, or doing recreational activities. Currently, Canadian homes and buildings combined with the electricity generated to power them, releases 111 million tons of greenhouse gas emissions into our atmosphere every year. To protect our environment and reduce the impact of climate change. The Government of Canada has committed to reducing Canada's total GHG emissions to 40 to 45, below 2005 levels by 2030 and to reaching net zero by 2050. The building sector is the third largest source of emissions in Canada.

Dan Seguin  01:27

As we look for ways to shape a more sustainable future Heat pumps are emerging as one of the climate solutions that can reduce energy costs, lower carbon emissions and increase energy efficiency. Now, I say they're emerging as a climate solution. But in fact, the concept of using heat pumps to transfer heat from one place to another has been around for centuries.

Dan Seguin  01:56

Since its early conception, heat pump technology continued to evolve throughout the 19th and early 20th century. Today, it is widely used for both heating and cooling buildings, as well as for various industrial and commercial applications. So here's today's big question. Are heat pumps the answer to reducing the carbon emissions of Canada's built environment? And are they being adopted at a pace necessary to achieve the 2030 and 2050 targets? Today my special guest is Shawn Carr. Shawn blends energy, sustainability, green building project management experience with business experience as a team leader, manager and developer. He is a strong advocate on climate action and serves on numerous committees with organizations such as Building Owners and Managers Association better known as BOMA, the Ontario Energy Association, and the electricity Distributors Association. He's also the manager of customer experience at Hydro Ottawa. Shawn, welcome to the show. Now, Shawn, this is pretty cool. I understand heat pump technology has been around since 1857. At a high level, what are heat pumps? And how do they work?

Shawn Carr  03:29

Well, you're absolutely right, Dan heat pumps have been around a long time. And they're actually a proven and reliable technology here in Canada and around the world. And they're capable of providing year round Comfort Control for your home by supplying heat in the winter, cooling in the summer, and in some cases heating hot water for your home as well. In fact, it's likely that most people have already interacted with this type of technology on a daily basis. For example, both refrigerators and air conditioners operate using the same principles and technology as heat pumps do. A heat pump is essentially just an electrical driven device that extracts heat from a low temperature place and delivers it to a high temperature place. So if you think of your home as a big refrigerator as energy is extracted from the air inside your home and transferred outside, it's going to cool the inside of your home. This is how pumps operate in essence In cooling mode. Similarly, if we were to talk about the heating mode, as heat is grabbed from outside from the air and moved inside your home the temperature is actually going to increase inside your home. And so essentially what that means is a heat pump is fully reversible. It can both heat and cool. And so in essence it has dual functionality. I think what makes heat pumps so different from other heating technologies such as gas furnaces and boilers is that those technologies provide space heating by adding heat to the air through a combustion process. So for example, combusting a fuel such as natural gas. And although their efficiencies have improved, they are still below 100%, meaning not all the available energy from combustion is used to treat the air, there are losses involved through incomplete combustion, and heat lost in the exhaust air. So, heat pumps work on a different principle, the electricity input into the heat pump is used to just transfer thermal energy between two locations, there is actually no combustion process at all. Heat pumps don't generate heat, they just redirect existing heat from one location to another. And so what that means is it allows them to operate much more efficiently. And so I thought it would be valuable just to explain kind of how efficiency is measured with a heat pump, it's actually expressed by something called the coefficient of performance, typically referred to as the COP . And what the COPis, is a ratio between the rate at which the heat pump actually transfers thermal energy, and the amount of electrical power it actually consumes. So, for example, if a heat pump used one unit of energy to transfer the heat equivalent of three units of energy, the COP would be three, and its efficiency would be 300%. So it actually delivers three times more energy than it consumes, in that example. Why does that matter? Well, knowing the COP of a heat pump allows you to judge how efficiently the unit is working. And so the higher the COP , the less electricity a heat pump consumes. So it's kind of like magic. And what I'll say is a COP of three or higher is actually pretty common with this new era of heat pumps, even in colder locations where there is less heat to transfer. And so it's also important to understand, though, as the outside air temperature drops, so does the COP. And so by point of comparison, if you were just using electric resistance heating, like baseboards, to heat your home, they actually have a COP of one. Okay, cool now, so why are heat pumps more popular than ever right now? Yeah, I mean, Heat pumps are certainly having a moment right now, in particular, this new era of heat pumps, and that's because they are a big lever for decarbonisation, and reaching net zero emissions by 2050. Technology and heat pumps have advanced dramatically, making them more efficient and more affordable even in cold climates. So in Canada, heating our homes accounts for about 16% of the carbon emissions in our country. And space and water heating specifically represent about 85% of residential greenhouse gas emissions. So replacing fossil fuel heating systems with electric options will significantly decrease household emissions. We could just use more traditional forms of electric heat like baseboards and electric furnaces, but the pumps are far more efficient options of beneficial electrification. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts, and we want to do it cost effectively for Canadians, switching to a heat pump is one of the most impactful ways of reducing your home's emissions. Heat pumps are becoming a pillar in a home electrification strategy.

Dan Seguin  09:21

Now, Shawn, answer this for me. Why is running our home with more electricity and choosing a heat pump a climate friendly choice?

Shawn Carr  09:31

Thanks for that Dan. It's a good question. I mean, first of all, there are lots of different fuels or energy types that can power our homes we you know, we've we commonly use natural gas propane furnace oil and electricity to heat our homes and all of these energy types have different carbon footprints and some are much more environmentally friendly than others. So if we talk about Canada, we have, as a country, one of the cleanest power grids in the world, and our government has committed to having a netzero energy grid by 2035. So even in regions where there may still be a significant portion of electricity generation that relies on fossil fuels, that electricity generation will steadily get cleaner and cleaner while burning, non renewable natural gas or propane in your home for heat is always going to produce emissions. And so there have actually been reports on the different ways for Canada to get to net zero. And the modeling consistently shows that electrification of heating as a necessary part of the transition to net zero and Canada's building sector. And so heat pumps specifically are critical to Canada's energy transition. In fact, probably critical to the world's energy transition, the technology is proven, they use up to 70% less energy than conventional home heating technologies, and they will probably become the default means of heating both indoor spaces and hot water systems in the near future. The other thing I'll point out is that air conditioning demand is rising. And by providing both heating and cooling heat pumps can help people manage climate impacts in regions where people may not have air conditioning today, but are starting to face hotter, and more frequent summer heat waves. We witnessed that with what happened with the fires and in British Columbia, and those are in regions where people traditionally may have not had air conditioning.

Dan Seguin  11:47

Now, what is a cold climate heat pump? And is that what Canadians should purchase?

Shawn Carr  11:56

Yeah, I mean, it's a good question. And so advancements in air source heat pump technology now means that there are heat pump options that are, I would say, far better suited or adapted to operating in the cold Canadian climate. And those are referred to as cold climate heat pumps. What makes them different from a traditional air source heat pump is it's really just some of the equipment that's contained within the unit. So they use variable capacity compressors, inverters, improved heat exchanger designs and controls to maximize heating capacity at colder temperatures while maintaining high efficiencies during milder conditions. And so what that means is they can still redirect heat from outside to inside your home quite efficiently even in conditions down to minus 20 degrees Celsius or less. So to classify as a cold climate heat pump under the federal Canada greener homes grant, which we can talk more about later, heat pumps must have a coefficient of performance a COP of 1.8 or higher at minus 15 degrees Celsius. So that means that the heat pump must maintain an efficiency of at least 180% at minus 15 Celsius. And just again, as a reminder, the most efficient gas burning furnaces out there have an efficiency of like 96 or 97%.

Dan Seguin  13:37

Okay, I've got another follow up question here for you. Can cold climate heat pumps meet the heating demand on their own? Or are there circumstances where backup heat is required?

Shawn Carr  13:53

Yeah, so I guess the short answer is it depends. You know, whether or not you need a backup heat source for your heat pump is going to depend, you know, on a number of factors, you know, for example, the type of heat pump you purchase, the climate zone you live in, and the design and efficiency of of your home. So, in some parts of Canada that are milder, a heat pump might be all you need, but in other colder areas, you will most certainly need a backup system. And that's because, you know, as the temperature drops, heat pumps start to become less efficient at heating. And when the temperature gets to a certain point, you know, the unit will shut off altogether, or it'll work in tandem with your backup heat system. And that shut off point is going to depend on your unit, the unit that you chose, but typically, that shutoff point could be anywhere from minus 15 Celsius down to minus 25 Celsius or lower. So, you know, what I will also say is the heat pump system is not typically sized to deliver 100% of the peak heating load that your home is designed for, because that could lead to an oversize system that might cycle on and off. So it's really important, I would say that if you're considering a heat pump that you work with a mechanical contractor for selecting and specifying a heat pump, and a backup heat source that's going to be right for your home, you know, right for your budget and your needs. And there are many options for a backup heat system. Some heat pumps come with an integrated electric resistance heating system that functions as a backup system at very low temperature. So think of that as just like an electric resistance element like a hairdryer that's been installed inside your duck. However, there are also natural gas backup options such as traditional high efficiency furnaces that can be used as a backup source if your home happens to be centrally ducted. And these are often referred to as hybrid heating systems.

Dan Seguin  16:13

Now, Shawn, what are some factors to consider when deciding if a heat pump is the right choice for your home?

Shawn Carr  16:21

Yeah, I mean, I think like I mentioned a bit earlier, a heat pump is probably the biggest thing that a homeowner can do at home to help fight the climate crisis. On top of it, you know, if you were to do the math, and consider the upfront costs, the current incentives and the ongoing energy costs associated with operating that cold climate heat pump, you know, the choice to go with a heat pump, in most cases is going to be pretty clear. That said, picking the right heat pump for your home requires planning and requires a mechanical system contractor that can help you navigate the heat pump journey and kind of guide you through that process. And the reason I say that's important is because you know, there's a lot of different things that you need to consider in this decision. For example, do I want an air source heat pump or a ground source heat pump? You know, will it be ducted? Or a ductless? System? Can I get away with just getting a traditional air source heat pump? Or do I need a cold climate heat pump? What size of heat pump do I need? And should it be sized for the heating load or the cooling load in my home? What are the economics around purchasing and operating a heat pump in your area compared to another type of heating system? How long is it going to take to recover the added cost of a heat pump through energy cost savings? Is my jurisdiction planning to implement any restrictions on fossil fuel heating, you know? Will a heat pump even work in my home? You know, will there be any added disruption to actually install it kind of like buying a car? You know what, what brand of heat pump? Should I go with? You know what warranties are available? What maintenance is needed? So I think as you can see down, there's just you know, there's a lot to consider. And I think despite all of these considerations, my opinion is that a heat pump will almost always be the right technology choice for your home. But making the best overall choice requires advanced planning. And it really has more to do with finding a good contractor that can help you make an informed decision rather than a snap decision when something goes wrong with your current system. You know, this is a big purchase. And you're going to need to live with that decision for maybe 15 years or more. So it's important to get it right. And I would say that, you know, if you happen to be listening to this podcast, a podcast that already gives you a good start because you now know that a heat pump is another option.

Dan Seguin  19:12

How do you determine what size heat pump you need?

Dan Seguin  19:17

Well, Dan, I guess I guess in this case, I mean size does matter. I mean the size is one of the most important things to get right. You can't just walk into your basement, look at the size of your gas furnace, and assume you need an equivalent sized heat pump. It doesn't work that way. The general rules of thumb often used by the industry for sizing heating and cooling loads generally result in an oversized system which is more expensive to operate and harder to control for comfort. So this is why it's so important, in my opinion, just to work with an energy consultant or a mechanical systems contractor who understands heat pumps. And so natural resource Canada, for example, has actually developed a toolkit for Air Source Heat Pump sizing and selection. And it's to help the contractor community and the design community to determine optimal sizing needs for customers. And so the guide actually helps with defining the key Air Source Heat Pump requirements. So things like, you know, what configuration makes sense for my home ducted versus ductless? You know, what are the heating and cooling loads in my home? What are the target capacity requirements, and then what the tool does is it kind of matches up good heat pump candidates for your requirements. And the toolkit actually goes as far as providing guidelines that also help with, you know, defining the control strategy for your heat pump and the backup heating requirements. And so the federal and in fact, actually, the federal incentives that are available through the greeter homes initiative are also contingent on getting the heat distribution right. So the sizing is important. And Enercan is looking to verify that whoever worked on your project has looked at that through that lens.

Dan Seguin  21:19

Okay, something a little more technical here. Our air source and ground source heat pumps are the most common types for Canadians. And maybe you can talk to us about what are some of the differences?

Shawn Carr  21:34

Yeah, I would say that they're certainly the two most common types for Canadians. I mean, air source is by far the most common type for Canadians followed by ground source. Really, the main difference with a ground source heat pump is they actually use the ground as the source of heat in the winter, and as a reservoir to reject heat removed from the home in the summer. And so rather than the air being the heat transfer mechanism, it's actually the ground, the main advantage of ground source heat pumps is they are not subject to the extreme temperature fluctuations we get with air because the ground is a more constant temperature source throughout the year. And what that ends up ultimately doing is it actually can drive higher efficiencies. The downside to ground source heat pumps, typically is that they are more expensive to install, there's more labor involved, and they may also require landscape alterations, so they may not be suitable for for all property types, depending on whether you've got the space in the land to be able to accommodate the loops that need to get installed in the ground and so on. So, you know, that said they're, they're very efficient, which means greater energy savings and ground source, heat pumps tend to work well and in almost all climates because they're not impacted by big fluctuations in outdoor air temperature. Very interesting. Now, can heat pumps be combined with renewable energy sources like solar? For sure. I mean, absolutely. I, you know, combining a heat pump with a solar array that will, you know, reduce your electricity consumption and costs can further improve the business case over the lifecycle of the heat pump system compared to, you know, a fossil fuel energy system. And so, you know, if you're in a jurisdiction with clean electricity generation, combining that heat pump with a solar system, it will result in you not emitting any net operational greenhouse gasses. So yeah, I mean, pairing it up is, you know, is a great solution, if you can afford the capital to do it.

Dan Seguin  24:03

This is an important topic here. Now, what kind of incentives and rebates exist out there?

Shawn Carr  24:11

Yeah. Well, so this is becoming harder to keep up. But what I would say is, it really depends on where you live, as there are many different incentives, rebates, you know, grants and, and financing options that are offered by municipalities, provinces and utilities and and they vary across Canada as it relates to heat pumps. And so I'm just going to focus on our federal program because the federal government has created a national green energy program called the Canada greener homes initiative, and it actually provides grants from $125 to $5,000. For eligible home retrofits and up to six $100 towards the cost of a pre and post retrofit home energy audit, their program also offers up to $40,000 in interest free loans with a repayment term of 10 years to help you undertake home retrofits. And so with respect to heat pumps, specifically, rebates through this program range from $2,500 for ductless, air source heat pump system to $5,000 for a centrally ducted cold climate, air source, heat pump. So, you know, between the federal incentive and any additional provincial or regional incentives and the financing options that are available that are in this case, no no interest and spread over 10 years, it can make a lot of financial sense to invest in a heat pump, you know, depending on your circumstances. And so I'll also say for our local listeners here in Ottawa that the City of Ottawa is Better Homes program also offers low interest loans for home energy efficiency and carbon reducing retrofits including heat pumps.

Dan Seguin  26:13

Shawn, if memory serves me, right, you recently installed a cold climate heat pump in your home? Did you take advantage of any incentives? And did it make the project financially viable for you?

Shawn Carr  26:30

So yes, Dan, I did install a cold climate heat pump in November of last year 2022. And we did take advantage of the $5,000 federal incentive for the cold climate heat pump. In our case, there were two primary motivations for wanting a heat pump, our primary motivation was to reduce our households greenhouse gas emissions footprint, and I knew that electrifying most of our heating load using a heat pump would have the largest impact on our GHG footprint for the investment. The second motivator was the role of the federal incentive program and how that allowed us to plan the project so that I could get the system I wanted within a budget that we were comfortable with. And in our situation, what I'll say when you know, what I'll share with our listeners is like we elected to pay a bit more upfront, because we wanted a high efficiency cold climate heat pump that was backed by a good warranty, we also opted for electric backup heat rather than a high efficiency gas furnace. And I was able to do that. I had the advantage of my electrical service was able to accommodate that choice without any additional investment. And we went as far as to also investing in a more advanced control strategy, since I like data and I kind of you know, believe that they're kind of the proof is in the pudding with this stuff. And so yeah, so I'm paying close attention to you know, how much energy my heat pump compressors using the fan, the electric backup, heat, and so on. And so you know, I'll have more information to obviously share as we go through a few more heating and cooling seasons. But what I'll say is, so for our case, after applying for the federal incentive of $5,000, after we applied that to the total project cost, and actually comparing the final system costs to what it would have costed to just install another high efficiency gas furnace and a traditional air conditioning system, it only cost me about $3,000 more to get what I wanted. So I have been paying attention to my energy use over the last few months. And I would say that my energy costs are comparable to what they were before. In fact, they've actually gone down a little bit. But I've also elected to maintain my gas connection to my home, right because we have two gas fireplaces that I did not know we've elected to keep for now. And in our project case, like we, I've already noticed that my household GHG emissions have gone down by about 75%. And you know, we were able to finance the entire project over 10 years with a zero interest loan. So we're pretty happy with our decision. And what I'll say is that we've actually noticed some other intangible benefits, you know, our home is more comfortable, I would say than it was before we no longer have to worry about setting the temperature back at night and then having it ramp up before we get up. Our heat pump is designed to run at lower temperatures at lower speeds for much longer run times and they can ramp up to meet the demand in your home as it's required. So they're really kind of designed to run sort of low and slow. And for us what that meant is, you know less cold spots in different parts of our home. Warm it's kind of a constant temperature throughout. And we really noticed that difference. Also, since I completed my heat pump project, I will say that they've since announced enhanced incentives for heat pumps through our gas company. And so between the gas company and the federal program, there's actually up to $6,500 Available now. So, you know, I mean, being an early adopter cost me a bit more, but I hope others will follow.

Dan Seguin  30:29

Okay, what kind of energy savings, utility cost savings and greenhouse gas emissions reductions could be expected from the installation of a cold climate Air Source Heat Pump?

Shawn Carr  30:45

Yeah, you're probably getting tired of me saying this. But I guess again, it depends on a lot of different factors, some of which I touched on earlier. So you know, things like how old your home is, how well insulated it is, how airtight it is, you know, what type of cold climate heat pump you have, what climate zone you live in. That said, though, like getting back to, do you know, your question about what kind of energy savings and cost savings and emission reductions can you expect? What I will say is, last year natural resources Canada published a really good report that specifically assessed the cost effectiveness, energy savings in greenhouse gas emission reductions in a variety of different types of homes in different locations in Canada. And so the report, you know, sort of seeked out to answer the question that you put forward. And so what I'll do is I'll just share some of the high level findings from that report. So first of all, the report found that cold climate heat pumps generate less greenhouse gas emissions and are cheaper to operate than oil furnaces, or electric resistance heating in all parts of Canada across the board period. For the majority of Canadians, cold climate Heat pumps are going to generate less GHG emissions than gas furnaces, but it does depend on how clean the source of electricity is in your province. So that's an important consideration. But the trend is moving towards our grid getting cleaner in areas where they aren't currently clean. So I think at some point, we're going to reach a point where that statement is going to hold true right across, you know, right across Canada. The report also indicated that if you're in an all electric service scenario, meaning you're disconnected from the gas utility altogether, the results show that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate than a gas furnace in most regions of Canada. If you're like me, in a split Gas Electric scenario, meaning you've maintained the gas connection in the home for whatever reason, you know, you're you're like having a gas stove, or you're like having a gas barbecue, or you have a gas fireplace, the results showed that a cold climate heat pump system is cheaper to operate in some areas in some jurisdictions, but in other areas, overall utility costs actually increased marginally like roughly 100 to $500 a year. And I think that was the situation in provinces like Ontario, Manitoba, Alberta, and some colder regions in BC. So that's what the report found. It also highlighted that for a gas hybrid configuration, so people who opt to go for a cold climate heat pump with a gas backup furnace, that that option may be more attractive to homeowners who opt for that split gas electrical service due to the associated savings. And so all that to be said, the report lays out the expected savings from different scenarios. So I would encourage, you know, listeners to have a look if they want to understand kind of you know what the findings are in their jurisdiction for their particular use case.

Dan Seguin  33:57

Shawn, having just gone through the process, what are some of the other things people should know? If they want to consider a cold climate heat pump?

Shawn Carr  34:09

Yeah, well, I can't emphasize enough to plan early. You know, we started planning our own project at home a year in advance. And so in our case, to start the process, we had an energy audit done, which helped validate where our biggest carbon and energy impacts were and what measures we could implement to address those impacts. And the number one recommendation in the audit report we received was to consider a cold climate heat pump we did we then did some research on the incentive program requirements to understand the process for receiving the incentive and I actually got some help from one of our internal energy consultants and you know, they they have experience with heat pumps on the commercial side and they helped me model the performance of some different units and helped me with my backup heat strategy. They validated equipment sizing, you know, looked at my utility bills and really and then modeled that energy and carbon reduction savings over time based on changing energy rates. And so once we went through that process, we engaged a local contractor that had heat pump experience. And what I'll say is applying for the incentive itself is pretty straightforward. But there's a lot of demand for the program. So the process can actually take some time. The other thing I'll mention is you will also have to pay for all the project costs upfront, even if the incentives and loans are approved, so the cash isn't going to start flowing from the program until after the work is actually completed. The other piece of advice I'll provide is, don't wait until your furnace or air conditioner breaks down to think about a heat pump. You know, we had a perfectly functioning gas furnace and air conditioner that was about three quarters through its statistical life expectancy. When we started planning this project, the majority of people make H fac investment decisions at a time in crisis, such as in February, when you need heat, or in July, when you need air conditioning. And in those scenarios, you're going to be locked in to whatever system is available for another 15 years that won't deliver the benefits that a heat pump would. So I think those are just some of the things that you know, I would advise people to take into consideration.

Dan Seguin  36:29

Thanks, Shawn. Okay, let's move on. What is Canada's rate of adoption for heat pumps compared to other countries? And what would you say are the biggest barriers to adoption right now?

Shawn Carr  36:44

Yeah, good question. I mean, I've read some different statistics on adoption rates in Canada, but just ballpark what I'd say is, you know, what I've read is that there's about 750,000 air source heat pumps installed in Canada today. And by contrast, there are over 5 million homes currently heated by natural gas. And by 2030, we need more than 10% of home heating in Canada to come from heat pumps, just more than double the current levels in order to align with Canada's climate targets. And some jurisdictions will say that the percentages need to be even higher than that. I also recently read that in the US last year, annual heat pump sales rose above 4 million units for the first time, outpacing sales of gas powered furnaces. So policy incentives have certainly bolstered heat pump adoption in the US. And I think it's safe to say that the heat pump curve will take off even further. But we do need adoption to accelerate at a much faster pace if we want to meet our climate targets. To address the second part of your question, you know, barriers to adoption, I think it's a combination of things. There are barriers both on the demand side and on the supply side. So on the demand side, more education, I think, is needed. These new generation of heat pumps are far better than the versions of the past, not just in terms of efficiency, but in terms of the comfort they provide as well. I think more customer awareness is needed around the benefits of heat pumps. But the customer experience associated with adopting a heat pump can also be pretty messy. And so I think that's something that needs to be improved. And so for example, if you go to a contractor to ask about heat pumps, some don't know about heat pumps, or some don't want to sell them. And so that can result in a poor customer experience. In addition, often this engagement, as I said earlier, is done at a time of crisis, when something is broken, you need to make a quick impulsive decision. And so if a gas furnace or an air conditioner is all that's available in the shop, because that's what the supply chain and manufacturers are focused on, that's likely the only option you're going to have in that emergency situation. And so I think the thing that's frustrating about that is heat pumps are not that different from air conditioners, they have a few extra parts that make them a bit more expensive. So manufacturers are not prioritizing key pumps just yet. So they don't tend to be readily available. So you know, again, in an emergency repair situation, that's not the best time to make a logical long term decision that might lock you into 50 more years of higher carbon emissions. And so I talked earlier about the importance of sizing and selecting equipment properly and the inputs that contribute to that. I think that changes the sales and adoption cycle especially if you have to plan for pre and post home energy audits in order to be eligible for these rebates. So the price process is different. And it's important that it's well understood and that that the planning happened well in advance so that you can make the right choices along that journey without the recent availability of grants and, you know, low interest loans and tax rebates, heat pumps, in particular cold climate heat pumps, I'd say have been cost prohibitive for for most, but I think that's, that's starting to change now, with the new incentive programs that will make it easier for consumers to make the right sustainable long term decision. I think, you know, one of the other things is I also think we need to expand the workforce and build more capacity for trained installers, you know, while expanding manufacturing, which is all going to eventually further drive down the costs of heat pumps, we need to get to a point where every air conditioner that's being replaced is just automatically being substituted by a heat pump. Instead, I think that that would be the desired future, there are still manufacturing constraints and supply chain vulnerabilities. And in my case, I had to wait six months for my heat pump. And that happened to be during the pandemic when supply chains were even more constrained. But you know, whether it's six weeks or six months, that's not feasible in terms of the customer journey, when taking into consideration this technology. So I think that these are all barriers I don't have. There isn't a magic bullet. I think they all just need to be addressed simultaneously.

Dan Seguin  41:29

Now, I'm hoping you can add a bit of color here, Shawn, what would you say are some of the solutions to help overcome market constraints and accelerate adoption rates?

Shawn Carr  41:42

Yeah, good. Good question. And I think technology is always going to be an enabler, continuing to improve heat pump efficiency, and unlocking the supply chain will drive down the cost for that increased efficiency. And I think you know, that's going to be particularly important at cold temperatures, because higher efficiency at cold temperatures might mean that there is less of a need for backup heat options, or it might make those backup heat options more cost effective. And so for example, increasing the efficiency might mean not requiring as much electrical backup heat, which could alleviate having to upgrade an electrical service. Right. So that helps homeowners on the cost side, but it also helps utilities and grid planning and so on. As we add more load to the system. I think leveraging data and analytics, I think there's some opportunities there as well. If utilities can get better at predicting who will and who will not need a service upgrade. It could help with system planning. If you knew that ahead of time, we could save customers time, cost and hassle potentially, I talked earlier about just building and adopting the workforce. So thinking about how we incent H fac professionals to get additional training and educate homeowners on the benefits of heat pumps during routine service calls and make it more desirable to sell heat pumps than conventional air conditioners, we could never have enough customers. You know education. I think education drives demand and demand helps unlock supply chains. So if demand increases, or if manufacturers make heat pumps, the first option instead of an air conditioner may go a long way to help the manufacturer contractor model. And ultimately, consumers won't have to navigate all this complexity. So we have to make this an easy decision and a good customer experience for consumers. And one of the other ways to do that is to keep up with the incentives, the grants, the tax rebates, the long term low interest, no interest financing so that heat pumps just become the obvious choice and uptake continues to accelerate.

Dan Seguin  44:09

Okay. Now, what are the implications of the mass adoption of heat pumps on the electricity system?

Shawn Carr  44:18

Okay. Interesting. Well, what I'll say is that there are certainly implications particularly for heating today, we predominantly use fossil fuels, mainly natural gas to heat our homes. And so when heat pumps are installed to replace fossil fuel heat, those Heat pumps are going to increase the electricity demand in the heating season. Exactly how much demand really depends on how efficient each home is at retaining heat and the backup heat option. people happen to choose gas versus electric for example, if everyone went with electric backup heat, and we had a long, extremely cold spell a lot more peak load would be added to the system over that extreme cold period if everyone had electric backup heat. And so you know from a utility perspective, I think the approach we are taking here at hydro Ottawa is to investigate and model the implications of all types of beneficial electrification on the electricity system. So heat pumps and electric vehicles, for example, for different degrees of adoption so that we have a better understanding of the implications on grid infrastructure planning and the overall utilization of our grid. There are many factors that are going to determine what Hydro Ottawa will need to do to ensure its distribution system continues to be able to enable heat pumps for customers, such as understanding how customers use them, you know, planning our system to incorporate them and integrating other technologies like distributed energy resources and other non wire alternatives as solutions to any grid challenges.

Dan Seguin  46:10

What's the concern about heat pumps increasing demand during peak times? Are utilities preparing for this?

Shawn Carr  46:21

Yeah, so today's grid infrastructure planning is largely determined based on peak demand, you know, which currently occurs in the hottest periods of the summer months in most locations. That said, a heat pump draws a similar load to an air conditioner when it's operating in the cooling mode. So you know, if you were to replace your air conditioner with a heat pump, that's going to have a similar impact with respect to electricity use during the cooling season, like in the hot summer. On the cooling side, though, as I mentioned earlier, we're also seeing demand for air conditioning rise with more heat emergencies and extreme heat events due to climate change. So that's going to increase demand as people start installing air conditioning, or heat pumps where mechanical cooling didn't exist before in those homes. On the heating side, however, electrifying more of our heat with heat pumps might mean we could be moving towards more winter peaks in the future, as opposed to, you know, summer being a summer peaking province here in Ontario like we are today. The big question is, how much electrification? How quick. And what's it going to cost at this scale and marginal grid expansion is predictable. But when you're talking at the macro level, it's much more difficult, which is why we are planning for these different scenarios.

Dan Seguin  47:59

Now, Shawn, is it fair to say that heat pumps can contribute significantly to the electrification movement and Canada's net zero by 2050 goals?

Shawn Carr  48:12

If so, how? Dan without question, electrifying our heating and cooling systems with heat pumps, as I said earlier, are the most impactful way to reduce emissions in our homes space and water heating represents about 85% of residential GHG emissions. A heat pump for space heating alone can reduce your emissions by about 65%. And if you add a water heater in your home, you might then be 85% of the way there. So if we want to drive deeper emissions cuts as a country, a widespread switch to heat pumps could make a big difference. If uptake accelerates fast enough, this is going to require a team effort. We need stakeholders working together, not getting in the way, you know, governments, utilities, educational institutions, the workforce supply chains, manufacturers, contractors, we all need to work together to ensure that heat pumps are readily available, accessible and affordable for all Canadian households so that this becomes the default heating and cooling technology of choice in new and existing homes. So why not be proactive? Think ahead, take advantage of available incentives and consider upgrading to a GHG friendly heating technology.

Dan Seguin  49:40

Okay, now, Shawn, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Sir. Are you ready?

Shawn Carr  49:51

I'm ready, Dan.

Dan Seguin  49:52

Shawn, what are you reading right now?

Shawn Carr  49:56

I'm actually not reading a novel right now. I'm just listening to a lot of Podcasts on the energy transition Dan.

Dan Seguin  50:03

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Maybe you do. Maybe you don't.

Shawn Carr  50:08

I would name my electric boat, One Planet, because we only got one planet. But sometimes we forget about that.

Dan Seguin  50:16

What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Shawn Carr  50:21

Well, geez, I mean it since Heat pumps are top of mind right now, I would say that this technology is pretty magical.

Dan Seguin  50:28

Okay, let's move on here. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Shawn Carr  50:36

Wow, I probably would just say the social isolation we all had to experience and you know, just seeing the impact that that had on my two teenagers who were going through high school during the pandemic, which is such an important time in their development. I think that was something that was tough on them and tough on me as a parent.

Dan Seguin  51:00

Okay, a little fun here. We've all been watching a little more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Shawn Carr  51:10

There's been so many good TV shows lately, you know, YellowStone, House of Dragons, the Bear, White Lotus. And Your Honor, we're all great. But if I had to pick one show as the best of all time for me, it would be Seinfeld.

Dan Seguin  51:26

Lastly, Shawn, what is exciting you about our industry right now?

Shawn Carr  51:32

Well, I'd have to say it's the energy transition and everything that is happening to electrify our economy. It's complex, challenging, and a very exciting time to be at a utility. But this is really important that we get this right.

Dan Seguin  51:48

Well, Shawn, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. Now if our listeners want to learn more about you, how can they connect? Well, the best way to get me is probably by email ShawnCarr@HydroOttawa.com.

52:09

Again, thank you so much for joining me today. Hope you had a lot of fun. I did, Dan. Thanks for having me on the show. Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The Think Energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Trees play an important role in carbon sequestration, slowing the rise of greenhouse gas emissions as they grow. But during extreme weather, trees can bring down power lines, damage equipment, ignite fires, and cause power outages. They add a layer of complexity to maintaining a resilient power grid. In thinkenergy episode 107, Hydro Ottawa’s Nick Levac, Supervisor of Distribution Operations, and Greg Tipman, Forestry Inspector, discuss how to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban forest.

Related links

• Nick Levac, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicklevac/ 

• Greg Tipman, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/greg-tipman-b5bb73a1/

• Hydro Ottawa Tree Planting Advice [PDF]: EN.pdf"> https://static.hydroottawa.com/documents/publications/safety/tree_planting_advice-EN.pdf

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is ThinkEnergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. While local and global efforts focus on achieving net zero greenhouse gas emissions by 2050 through the electrification, or transformation of certain industries, it is also important to consider the significant role natural climate solutions can play in greening communities. Warren Buffett famously said, someone is sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree a long time ago. Trees make our world a beautiful place and provide us with many lasting benefits, such as shade, privacy, shelter, and food, and they contribute to our mental well being. Aside from those benefits, trees play an important role in carbon reduction, slowing the rise of GHG emissions as they grow. But if you know anything about electricity, you know that electricity and trees seldom mix. That doesn't mean they can't be good neighbors though. Across the City of Ottawa, there are an estimated 185,000 trees in proximity to Hydro Ottawa was 2800 kilometers of overhead high voltage power lines. When trees are close enough to potentially contact overhead power lines, public safety and the uninterrupted supply of electricity can be compromised. Utilities have a responsibility to ensure its electricity distribution system is safe, and that it operates reliably. Because of that, they must also ensure that their equipment can withstand extreme weather events such as high winds, and heavy snow falls and ice. broken tree branches can bring down power lines and create serious public safety concerns like damaged equipment fires and power outages. All of which can be a frustrating and costly experience for both the utility company and customers. In an urban area, the presence of trees adds an additional layer of complexity to the challenge of maintaining reliable and resilient power grids. Finding a way to minimize power outages while preserving a healthy urban tree canopy is an important goal for urban planners and utility companies. Through a combination of strategic tree planting, pruning and maintenance, as well as the use of technology and innovative solutions. It's possible to strike a balance between these two important priorities, ensuring that the city remains livable, and sustainable for years to come. Responsible tree trimming and maintenance has resulted in reducing power outages by 40%. In Ottawa alone, with extreme weather events we've witnessed in the past few years, and as the climate continues to change, the outcome will create more problems for utilities to provide reliable power to customers without extended outages. So here is today's big question. In the age of climate change and environmental responsibility, how can utility companies strike a balance between maintaining reliable service, minimizing outages and maintaining a healthy and vibrant urban forest? To help us better understand this balancing act? I've invited Nick Novak, who's the supervisor of distribution operations, and a forestry inspector Greg Tipmann. Welcome both. Greg, I'll start with you. Can you tell us a bit about your work? And what the biggest misconceptions are about tree trimming and vegetation control programs when it comes to electricity?

Greg Tipman  04:49

For sure, Dan, and just just again, thanks for having us on your podcast this morning. Getting the kind of meat potatoes my daily job encompasses: speaking with customers, addressing the vegetation concerns around power lines, auditing the contractor we use, which is Aspen tree service. There's also coordinating our jobs, our time and material jobs. So it's stuff that I look at and deal with the customer then gets delegated directly to a secondary crew to do that specific work for the customer. There's also writing of prescriptions for any work for other jobs for the customers. So specific work they want hydro Ottawa to do that's outside of our regular trim program. Some of the biggest misconceptions that I've run into is that a lot of the public thinks that our tree work is just a hack and slash that there's no thought or science put into the tree trimming that's actually going on, when, in actuality, we have a whole set of standards for proper pruning, and tree trimming of the species around the Hydra wires. And that kicks back to our working procedures or our lifeline clearing techniques. And then there's another misconception that I've run into quite a bit is that a lot of people think that for us, or for our contractor to do the tree trimming, the power has to be shut off every single time. And that's, that's not the case. We like to keep it as a very rare scenario when we do have to shut the power off. And that's usually just for a safety issue for the tree trimmers.

Dan Seguin  06:38

Okay, cool, Nick. We often say that trees and electrical wires don't mix. What types of dangerous situations can occur if they come in contact with one another? Is there a recent example you can share with us?

Nick Levac  06:58

Yeah, so I mean, first first, and mine is obviously power outages. That's kind of the first thing that we hear about when a tree comes down on our conductors. But, you know, the power outages can vary from, you know, a whole circuit right back to a substation to just localized outages in your community or along your streets. The other thing, if the tree does come down on the line, and they're in our system doesn't doesn't experience an outage, oftentimes, trees can catch on fire. So we've had, we've had examples over the years where trees are resting on a line, nobody notices it, and then eventually it'll catch on fire, which obviously can cause other issues. And especially in the summertime with dry conditions. If that does come down to the ground, it could, you know, start forest fires, which, unfortunately, our neighbors in the south and us have experienced in California and stuff. So but there was there was one larger outage and I think it was a start in November November 2, whereas a spruce tree that was quite a bit away from the line did fail, and it came down and took down to two conductors out at the end of my road, I believe it was and it caused a large outage. We were in a sense, those are almost better to have, because it's easier to find that tree and where the problem is. And we can get crews out to fix it in a quick manner. But that's probably the most recent one that we've had that had a major outage and a big impact to our system.

Dan Seguin  08:32

So we're clear, Nick, what are the guidelines that determine if tree trimming or vegetation management near powerlines is required? What does sufficient clearance from an electrical equipment look like?

Nick Levac  08:46

Yeah, so like Greg mentioned in the first question there we have our rivers going through our system, and we're looking at at standards that we trim to the cities divided up into about 30 vegetation management zones. And they're divided into either a two or three year trim cycle, which means you'll see our versus your backyard, you're on the streets, trimming out to our guidelines, either every second year, third year. Our main goal, there's a couple of them. But our main goal when we're trimming to our standards that we have,  is when we come back and either in two or three years, the vegetation that we trimmed out is still three feet away. There's different zones that we have from 10 feet back to the conductor or the live overhead wire, and from the wire out to three feet is called the restricted zone. And as I mentioned that that's where we do not want the vegetation to get into because if we if it does get in there creates a bunch of different problems for our for our tree arborist to go in there. And as Greg mentioned, outages is the last thing we want to do when we're trimming trees. And if that veg does get into that restricted zone, increased outages for trimming sometimes An option that we have to look at what we're trying to avoid. So that's, that's kind of our main goal. We look at the species a tree, and how much it would grow in a year. And as the arborist comes through, they're going to trim back that many feet. So if we have a fast growing species that grows a three or four feet a year, and we're going to be back in two years, we're going to trim that back three feet times two, plus the additional three feet. So we're looking at about a 10 foot trim on that.

Dan Seguin  10:29

Nick, pruning, and especially removal of interfering trees often caused controversy. In an age of climate change and environmental responsibility. What do you tell folks that object to or have concerns about the important work you do to help keep the lights on entry safe?

Nick Levac  10:53

Yeah, that's a great question. We, you know, our I think you hit the last word there, and your question kind of hits on our main goal of everything that we do here at Hydro is safety. So, not only are we looking out for the publics safety, ensuring that trees are coming down on the line and staying energized. But we're also looking out for worker safety. So as we're going through, we tried to do preventative maintenance, so to speak. So very much like you get your oil changed in a car, or you put your winter tires on this time of year, we're trying to trim trees away from the lines to make sure they don't come in contact that avoids outages, unplanned outages, especially because, you know, it's one thing to get a phone call to say, Hey, your power is going to be out because we're doing preventative maintenance, whether it's tree trimming, or upgrading the electrical system. It's another thing to wake up at two o'clock in the morning after like, so the heat off and everything and it's unexpected, and you're trying to get your kids ready, you're at home or whatever. So preventative maintenance is the big thing. And we try to educate our customers that what we're doing out there is really just to make sure that we can decrease outages and especially those unplanned outages. The other thing that we look at when we're pruning trees is the tree health. And I know Greg's gonna get into this, I think a little bit later on. But just looking at the species of a tree and how we trimmed them to make sure that the health of the tree is also a huge interest for our births that are up there. They're all certified trained arborists, with some extra training on the electrical side, because obviously, we're trimming around live electrical lines. But when they get up into a tree, they're looking at the health of the tree. There's a lot of stuff once they get up into the canopy of the tree that they noticed that you can't see from the ground. So they're taking into account and they're taking out any Deadwood or anything in there and and try to not only like I mentioned before getting those clearances that we need for the electrical side, but also trying to enhance the tree growth away from our lines and lucky that the health of the tree, but take any dead wood or anything out of it.

Dan Seguin  12:55

So back to you, Greg, I know you trim trees on public property that are within three meters of an overhead line. But what about on private property? trees near utility lines inherently carry serious risk to property owners who may be injured or even killed when working near powerlines? What are homeowners responsible for? And when should they call the utility to arrange for their help? Like a planned outage? Basically, what do homeowners need to know?

Greg Tipman  13:33

Yeah, Dan, so when you're speaking about the kind of responsibilities on vegetation maintenance, Hydro Ottawa is responsible for the pole the pole wire vegetation maintenance. The area around the high voltage wire that Hydro trims is part of our responsibility is 10 feet for the primary which is usually the very top wire running pole, as well as about a three foot clearance around our low voltage or secondary wires. And again, that's the pole, the pole wires. Just I want to make that bold statement. That's Hydros responsibility as part of our maintenance package. Kind of like Nick was touching up on and that that happens pending what grid what year, you know, two to three years Central, within kind of the city core versus the outer rural areas. If a customer is looking to have work done on their tree which is growing out of their private property, and it's near our overhead wires, hydro comes in free charge we get it clear 10 feet 10 feet back, debris would stay on site, and then it would be the homeowners responsibility to either cut the tree down themselves hire private tree contractor or if they wanted, they could also hire hydro Ottawa, do our work for others program and we would write them out a full And we'll treat quote, and they would, they would pay an additional cost for that work that's outside of our regular maintenance scope. Now in regards to the, the wires running pole to house service wire, or if you're in a rural area, and it's a private primary wire, there's a couple options that they have for having those what those wires that vegetation trimmed out, they can either hire a private tree contractor, and hydro Ottawa, our service department provides one free disconnect a year for any tree work a little bit more legwork for the customer or the contractor to do, but it's an entirely viable option. The second option is they can again hire hydro, to trim out their service wire, to whatever specs we normally recommend. It's a low voltage secondary wire, to have about a three foot clearance on it, they want us to go with that option. I myself would write them out a formal tree, quote, and have all the details. proof of payment forehand would be had. And then we would schedule the customer an exact date. And they would essentially have the work done to what the quote was that they're paying for the work to be done and, and go from there. It's quite effective. We've gotten a lot of feedback from the customers about having their service wire trimmed down and there's been a lot of good things to have come from having us on site. And just doing it all, not having to worry about them having to organize an outage on their house. So it's, it's been a good go.

Dan Seguin  16:39

Here's another question for you, Greg. When planting a young sapling, it's often difficult to imagine that in a few years, like 10 years, it could have a significant impact on the landscape with an expanding canopy. As a homeowner, or a landscaper, if you are planting a new tree, how important is it to contact your utility service provider to discuss your plans? Do you have any tree planting advice? Or some good resources on what to plant and where?

Greg Tipman  17:18

Yes, yes. So basically, Hydro Ottawa has a really good source on our internet page. Basically, just type in Google out "Hydro Ottawa tree planting advice," and it'll take you right to a pamphlet that's been put on the internet. And it has everything for suggestions of where the tree should be planted, what type of species is it? How tall will it grow? How wide will the canopy grow? How many feet back from an overhead wire should be planted? It has a breakdown of species names. What soils are their best to be planted in? You know, like I said, they're their typical growth structure in relation to overhead wires. And there's also advice given on planting around underground wires, which a lot of people you know, you don't see them, you don't really think they're there. But most people just see the green box, the ground transformer, if you will. But where are the wires going? What? Which way? Can I plant and whatnot. So it's a really great resource that has a lot of information, a lot of diagrams. Definitely check it out. And then another great option would be just put a call in have myself or Nick show up. And, you know, we can tell you, you know, basically where the what, what's the lay of the land? What is your yard showing you? You know, are there other trees in the neighborhood or in your yard? You can get a very good look just from seeing what's out there, what to expect. And then and then go from there.

Dan Seguin  19:08

Okay, Nick, this next question might be in your wheelhouse. A power outage occurs when there's direct contact between two conducting lines face to face, or by providing a path for electricity to travel to the ground. There are several other ways that vegetation trees in particular, can cause power outages, wondering if you could expand on the causes and how utilities and folks in your profession mitigate that.

Nick Levac  19:40

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting question. It's obviously something we look at all the time. And that's our biggest goal within our department is to mitigate those outages and I actually came from a background in the lines department as a power line maintainer for 10 years and then and swung over and got into working with the veg management program. And, you know, I'd say it's a really good partnership that we have right now, not only with Greg and our other utility forestry inspectors, but along with our contractor Aspen who's doing the work for us. And, you know, that's a constant conversation that we're having week in, week out. And not only are we reviewing any outages that might have occurred the week before and trying to follow up on those to see why those power outages occurred and how we can hopefully prevent them from reoccurring. But within the system itself, the electrical system, we have, it's very much like your house where it's set up where we have different circuits all the way through the city. And within each circuit, we have different fusing, the further you get away from the substation. So the fusion coordination can really help out if you have a tree that falls at the very end of that circuit. We have the fusion set up in a way that it's only going to go back to the next device downstream. And if everything is working properly, that fuse will open up and it'll really shrink the size of that outage rather than going all the way back to the substation. So if you can imagine if you have 1000 customers on a circuit, and you had 10, different fuses all the way down, and that last one blows, you're gonna only affect 100 people instead of 1000 people. Also, within our system, we have devices called reclosers. So I'm sure many, many, many listeners have had their lights flicker on and off two or three times. And then unfortunately, after that third flicker, the power does stay off permanently. That means that there's a bigger issue on the line and that reclosure could self clear. So those devices are there. For momentary outages, when they see a spike in amperage, they'll open up the circuit, and give time for that tree or whatever that foreign interference is to clear itself. And then close back in with the hopes that once it closes back in that that power will stay on. If it senses that it's still there, it'll open back up again. Hopefully allow it to clear a little bit longer closed back in again, and hopefully the second time's a charm. Unfortunately, sometimes that doesn't work. And then you experienced that outage, the last kind of protection in the whole stream protection devices is that circuit breaker back at the station. That's kind of the worst case if we see a circuit open up. That means that there's a major problem. Usually, like you mentioned there, there's a face to face kind of issue where two conductors have slapped together. And that's kind of what causes the biggest outage, that's when we know we have a large problem. And the other issue with that is because our circuits are so long, some of them are you know, in the downtown core where we have more substations, it's a little bit easier to find because you know, the circuit might only be say a kilometer or two long, but if you get out into the rural Orleans, Kanata, down south though Manotick, Nepean you can have, you know, 10-15-20 kilometers a line. So if your circuit breaker and your station opens up, that means that somewhere between your station at the end of the line is your problem. So their fault indicators and stuff on your line that can help pinpoint it. But it definitely can make it more challenging when you're starting back at your substation now having to patrol 2020 kilometers a line versus if that fuse opens at the very end of your line you okay, it's the last section within that line. The other thing that can really help us out is the customers in the field. So a lot of times we'll get calls in and it's great to get that information and Hyderabad was very active on social media and that that definitely helps if, if a customer sees a problem if they see a line down if they see a bright blue flash if they hear alert, loud bang, you know, first and foremost, let us know don't ever approach down wire stay away even trees that could be leaning up against a wire. And I mentioned this before just because the trees against the wire if that wire still energizes that could potentially energize that tree. So we want to make sure we stay back, you know, stay back 10 meters from that tree, stay back 10 meters from that electrical line because you don't know if it's on or if it's still alive. So your safety is first and foremost, call 911. If there's any you know, immediate hazard fire police can come in and assist, they will get a hold of our system offers right away and direct us to that. Or if it's something that's, you know, a little bit less than you think that Hydros should know, we have lots of different social media channels you can reach out on and let us know. And that really does help because that information does find its way down to the crews in the fields and it helps us get to the outage and find that problem that's causing the outage that much quicker.

Dan Seguin  24:57

In addition to being a qualified arborist Greg, you also have extensive knowledge about electricity. Can you talk about this dual role and special qualifications that you have? How dangerous is your job? And do you work around live electricity at high voltage?

Greg Tipman  25:17

Yeah, Dan. So just a little background on my schooling and qualifications. So I did my forestry technologist diploma at Algonquin, which is a two year program. And then from there, I moved out to BC to work on some really big trees and wildlife out there. I morphed into the utility side of tree work. And that's where I went and did my apprenticeship program. From there, you need approximately 4000 hours just to qualify, the program is a two year program, you accumulate about about 6000 hours around of live line clearing, working around the wires, you learn how electricity all the bases, electricity, how it works, how to identify the equipment, that coupled with your actual tree work in the tree, the the tools, special tools you'll be using, so dielectrically tools, how to operate bucket trucks, so on and so forth, rigging big chunks of wood down and trees how to do it safely. All the while in close proximity to these overhead high voltage wires. It's very, very dangerous. I mean, you couple your, you know, 3040 5060 feet up hanging by ropes, you're using a chainsaw to cut wood. Plus you have a live line that's, you know, five, six feet away from you. So it's definitely very dangerous. But the schooling, the on the job training that you get just, you know, old hands, showing you the techniques, the up to date, safety standards, and whatnot, it makes your comfort level something that you would never, you know, come natural to you become second nature. So it's definitely a process, it's definitely building confidence over time. And then, you know, taking classes, learning, whether it's through the International Society of Arboriculture on the tree side of things for tree health, you know, what are the tree species? Biology pests? You know, a lot of times customers will ask, you know, why is my tree dying? Why is it declining? A lot of times people will think, oh, it's Hydro, you trimmed the tree incorrectly? Well, no, it's, you know, a pest infestation or you did some landscaping or whatnot, the roots have been killed and whatnot. So it's learning all that, that, you know, information and coupling it and pairing it with the electrical side of things that it really makes for a harmonious job and, you know, a great aspect to keep learning, there's always new information, new research coming out on on trees and the electrical side of things. You know, and then just just basically, you know, having the resources also at hydro Ottawa, it makes that partnership that much better for getting the work done and done safely.

Dan Seguin  28:41

Okay, so, Greg, I've seen some amazing footage of folks in your profession climbing pretty high in trees. So besides not having a fear of heights. What's that, like? And what's the favorite thing about your job? Have you ever surprised some birds or even squirrels? Or have surprised you?

Greg Tipman  29:06

Yeah, so kind of, like I was touching on there. I mean, the fear of heights is not was never really the big, big deal. It was more trusting your gear. Knowing that, you know, a 10-12 millimeter diameter rope is going to hold you and your gear. You know, it's going to hold, you know, wood swinging around and whatnot, it's not going to break off, you know that your knots have been tied correctly. They're not going to come undone, you're gonna fall to your death and get injured or whatnot. Those were kind of the first fears to really get over. But once you get that , it's practice. The more you do it, the more you get comfortable doing it, the more you feel safe and secure. I've definitely had some weird, interesting animal encounters while working in the trees. I've had birds land on my head and stay there. Are while working. I've had raccoons, you know, climb out hollows. I've had bats, you know, fly out from underneath bark. But probably the scariest wasn't in the tree yet, but we're doing some ground slash BC and probably 10-12 feet away, a black bear just goes running right by. And yeah, it was exhilarating, but it was done in a flash and yeah, nothing more. But you know, it definitely, you know, could have been a different interesting situation had the bear been a, you know, an angry bear, if you will or whatnot. But, you know, if we're, yeah, for the most part, it's the job. You get to see nature all the time. And there's always something great to see. Animal wise.

Dan Seguin  30:50

Okay, both. Are you ready to tag team and close us off with some rapid fire questions? Greg, I'm going to start with you. What's your favorite tree?

Greg Tipman  31:01

Can I give you four Dan? So Eastern White Pine, the monkey puzzle tree, Giant Sequoia, and the Charlie Brown Christmas tree.

Dan Seguin  31:12

Nick, let's move on to you. What is one thing you can't live without?

Nick Levac  31:17

That's an easy one. It's got to be my family. My two girls at home, my lovely wife, and probably a good cup of coffee or a nice americano in the morning just to get things going.

Dan Seguin  31:28

Greg, what habit or hobby? Have you picked up during shelter in place?

Greg Tipman  31:37

Probably flying and crashing my drone, I need more practice.

Dan Seguin  31:48

Okay, next one is for you, Nick. If you could have one superpower, what would it be?

Nick Levac  31:56

You know what, I think never to age physically. Only in wisdom. The body's getting a little bit older. And every time I go out and try to play hockey or do something now I wake up a little bit sore in the morning so I would keep my physical health. Maybe back when I was in my 20s. That would be amazing.

Dan Seguin  32:16

What about you, Greg, what would your superpower be?

Greg Tipman  32:20

Maybe just unlimited superpowers.

Dan Seguin  32:25

Okay, back to you, Nick. If you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self? What would you tell him?

Nick Levac  32:33

You know, I probably try to let them in on a couple of neat world events that we're going to take place between then and then when they're my age now, and just tell him to go there and make sure he's present. And no matter what the cost is. Sometimes you only get what's a once in a lifetime chance to see things and make sure he gets there to experience that life.

Dan Seguin  32:58

And lastly, this one is for the both of you. What do you currently find most interesting in your sector? Greg?

Greg Tipman  33:08

It's really the day to day change, there's always a different challenge that's coming up, you're always in a different location dealing with different people. So it's never, you know, a month a monotonous job, it's always fluid, there's always something new.

Dan Seguin  33:26

What about you, Nick?

Nick Levac  33:28

What excites me the most coming down the pipe, I think it’s the technology that hopefully we're going to be exposed to. I mean, Greg mentioned crashing his drone, but you know, just even stuff like that, and us being able to fly over headlines and really take a good snapshot of what that vegetation looks like within our city. And and what we can do to kind of have a good mix between you know, maintaining that Urban Canopy in Ottawa, and then also at the same time keeping the electricity on and if we can use different types of technology that's coming down the pipe to find a balance between the two that we can get out and and proactively trim trees because we know exactly where they are. And also keep that Urban Canopy for the customers here in Ottawa. I think there's an interesting mix coming down, how we can leverage that technology to our advantage.

Dan Seguin  34:17

Nick, and Greg, we reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. I hope you had a lot of fun. And again, thank you so much for joining me today. Cheers.

Greg Tipman  34:33

Thanks again for having us, Dan.

Nick Levac  34:35

Yes, thank you, Dan.

Dan Seguin  34:38

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review where ever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

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Transcript: 

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is thinkenergy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry,

Dan Seguin  00:28

Everyone, welcome back. Energy and climate change are important topics that have been increasingly discussed in recent years due to the significant impact they have on the environment, the economy, and society as a whole. The effects of climate change, such as rising sea levels, increased frequency of extreme weather events, and loss of biodiversity are widely recognized by the scientific community. However, there are different views on the best ways to address these issues, particularly in terms of energy policy, and the way we live, work, consume and travel. While some advocate for the transition to renewable energy sources, others still argue for the continued use of fossil fuels or the development of other technologies such as nuclear energy.

Dan Seguin  01:27

These differing perspectives have created a complex and often polarized debate. It is important to approach these discussions with an open mind, consider the evidence and engage in constructive dialogue to find common ground and solutions that work for all stakeholders. We've often heard that working together and respecting different opinions are essential for effective collaboration and innovation. For climate change, it's more important than ever, that we come together to work towards a common goal. So here is today's big question. When it comes to energy, and climate, are we able to consider diverse perspectives so we can identify blind spots, and challenge assumptions that will ultimately lead to a stronger way forward for Canada. Today, my special guest is Dr. Monica Gattinger. She's the director of the Institute for Science, Society and Policy. She's a full professor at the School of Political Studies and founder Chair of Positive Energy at the University of Ottawa. Monica, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling our listeners a bit about yourself, and how the positive energy program that you found it at the University of Ottawa came to be?

Monica Gattinger  02:55

Thanks, happy to. I'm a professor at the University of Ottawa. And I've been a student of energy, Dan it kind of pains me to say it, for but going on three decades now. And I guess about maybe 10 years ago or so around 2014-2015, you might remember at that time, there was a lot of contentiousness in the energy sector, particularly around pipeline development. And I think, you know, I felt a certain frustration that I'd go to energy conferences, and we'd all kind of get concerned about this. And, you know, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air, but what was happening, and then walk away, come back at the next conference to do the same thing. So the idea that I had was to create an initiative that would convene leaders who were concerned about these issues of public confidence and energy decision making, convening them together to try to identify what some of the key challenges are. And then I would undertake a research team, some solution focused, applied academic research to actually feed that process on an ongoing basis. So it's, you know, not just conferences, we walk away conferences, we walk away, it's, let's put in place a process to actually excuse me to actually get to some solution seeking on the challenges.

Dan Seguin  04:11

Okay, now, I have to ask you, because I love the name, given how polarizing energy has been for a number of years now, is the name meant to have a double meaning?

Monica Gattinger  04:20

Yes, it is. You are exactly right. That was you know, at the time when we created that name, that was precisely what we were trying to do, which is let's have some positive discussions about energy. I think the other thing I'd point to is, you know, for us, and it's always been the case that energy is all energy. So yes, at the time when we created positive energy, you know, what was in the news was big pipelines. But many of these issues and the challenges that we address with our work, apply to all energy sources, whether it's, you know, electricity, oil and gas at the upstream downstream, midstream sectors, so we really wanted to try to foster a pan Canadian approach on on the issues with energy as the core.

Dan Seguin  05:10

Monica, in one of your research reports, you acknowledge that division is eroding public trust and preventing progress. Why is that happening? Is it a lack of understanding around climate change and Canada's goals? Or is it more about the method or policies in place to get there?

Monica Gattinger  05:32

That's a super important question, Dan. And it's really at the heart of what we're aiming to do with positive energy. So if you look at where we're at now, on energy and climate, there's, you know, a tremendous global move towards net zero. And, of course, this is going to mean just a wholesale transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. So, you know, there are bound to be disagreements of division over how we go about doing that. And I think, you know, one of the crucial things about this energy transition in comparison to previous energy transitions, is that it's going to be largely policy driven, like, yes, there will be market developments, but policy is going to be playing such an important role. So to your question, you know, a lot of this is around the methods or the policies that we're going to be putting in place when it comes to energy transition. And I think our work really starts from the, you know, the very strong belief that if we don't have public confidence in government decision making over energy and climate, we're not going to be able to make ongoing forward progress on either energy or, or climate objectives. And for us, public confidence is, you know, the confidence of people, whether as citizens, as consumers as community members, but it's also the confidence of investors, right, we know that we're going to need a tremendous amount of new energy infrastructure, without the investor confidence to make that happen, we're not going to be able to to, you know, achieve the emissions reductions that are envisioned envisaged. So for us that whole question of division, and how do we address division, where it exists, is just fundamental to our efforts.

Dan Seguin  07:17

Okay. Now, do you think we lack a shared positive vision as Canadians on the future? And how we get there together? How do we build bridges? Is this what you're trying to achieve with positive energy?

Monica Gattinger  07:32

Yeah, I'd say yes or no, on the shared vision. So you know, we do a lot of public opinion, polling researchers, as you might know, Dan, and and, you know, uniformly Canadian scores, government's very poorly, on whether they are succeeding and developing a shared vision for Canada's energy future. That said, you know, I don't see it all as a whole bad news, there is remarkable alignment of views among Canadians on many aspects of the country's energy future, I think sometimes what, what we tend to hear, you know, are the voices in political debates and in the media, and in the end in the media, that are on you know, sort of opposite ends of a spectrum, if you look at, you know, sort of where Canadians are at, in general, you know, in terms of the majority opinions, they're often much more aligned than what you might think, by listening to some of our political debates or reading the media. So I think what we're trying to do at positive energies is a few things. One is, you know, to really try to see just how divided we are, and a lot of our work has brought forward that we're not as divided as we might think, on some of these issues. And the second thing we're trying to do is provide a forum for people who do want to work constructively and positively to chart a positive path forward, provide that forum for those to do that, and then to undertake academic research to support that. And one of the things that we found is that there's just a tremendous appetite for that kind of initiative.

Dan Seguin  09:05

Okay, Monica, hoping you can shed some light on this next item. What do you mean, when you see that Canada is at a log jam when it comes to charting our energy future?

Monica Gattinger  09:19

That's a great question. Because, you know, when I think about when we wrote that, that was a few that were written a few years ago. So it kind of answers that question a little bit differently now than I would have if you'd asked it at the time that we wrote it. So if you think about it, cast your mind back to 2015. And the creation between the federal government and the provinces of the pan Canadian framework on clean growth and climate change, there was a lot of alignment between the federal government and provinces and territories around climate change. And then we had some electoral turnover and new governments coming into power at the provincial level and the round sort of the 2018 period and that relative peace between federal and provincial governments began to be overturned. And so that, you know, the log jam that we were referring to was really written at that period of time, we were seeing a lot of fractiousness between the federal government and provincial governments. And don't get me wrong, we still see, we still see some of that, but certainly not to the level we did at that time. So I think it over the last few years, we've seen much greater alignment emerge in the country, notably around the concept of net zero, which we think is really, really, really constructive progress. I think, where we see some of the challenges now is moving to implementation, right? How do we move to reduce emissions and actually roll up our sleeves and do it in a way that will build and maintain public confidence? That's, you know, that's very much where we're casting our efforts these days.

Dan Seguin  10:50

Okay, cool. And what are some of the weaknesses you found in energy decision making?

Monica Gattinger  10:56

So I think there are a few that I would point to, you know, one would be and our current work is zeroing in on this more than we have in the past, is the whole question of energy security. And by that what, what we're referring to is the reliability and affordability and availability of energy. So in the absence, I mean, Dan, you know, you work at hydro Ottawa, so you would know, when you know, when the lights go out. People are nervous, it really captures their attention. I'll put it that way. And so in the absence of, you know, reliable, affordable energy, it's going to be very difficult to make ongoing progress on emissions reductions. So that whole question of energy security is one of the what I'd say is sort of the weaknesses in the frame that policymakers are often bringing to, to energy decision making, I think a second area that really is going to need some attention is our policy and regulatory frameworks for energy project decision making. I mean, we know, let's say, you know, take electrification, if we're going to be moving forward on electrification in a meaningful way. Most reasonable estimates assume we're going to need to double or triple our generating capacity in the country, and all the infrastructure transmission, local distribution, all that goes along with that, that's going to require building a whole lot of infrastructure. And so there's definitely some weaknesses there in our existing frameworks for doing that. And then the third area I'd point to is collaboration between governments. And so yes, federal and provincial, but it's also increasingly, municipal governments as well need to be collaborating with other levels of government and indigenous governments too, so bringing together that collaboration across jurisdictions is an area where there's a lot of a lot of strength that we're going to need to be building.

Dan Seguin  12:47

Okay, Monica, following up on this theme, positive energy has conducted a number of public opinion surveys since 2015, to gauge Canadian support for the country's climate commitments and their views on our international credibility. What are some surprises? And have you seen any change in attitudes since you started the surveys?

Monica Gattinger  13:11

Yeah, we've done a lot of work. We have a fantastic partnership with Nanos research, we've been working with Nick Nanos and the Nanos team since 2015, we've done lots of public opinion polling along the way. And so I think, you know, one of the things that has surprised me the most about this, and maybe it's just my own naivete as as a, you know, an academic researcher, but is just the pragmatism of Canadians, you know, many of the questions that we put to Canadians come back with very pragmatic and balanced responses. So there seems to be that recognition on the part of, of Canadians of the need to take a balanced approach to energy and climate issues. So I'll give you just a couple of quick examples. So we've been tracking Canadians level of climate ambition, we started doing this actually, during the pandemic. And so we asked people on a scale of zero to 10, where zero is now the worst time and 10 is the best time to take action on climate, you know, what, what, how would you score things? And, you know, the majority of Canadians, you know, score things strongly, they want to see climate action. We've seen some weakening of that, notably, as we've got some weakening of the economic conditions that has weakened people's appetite. So that's sort of one thing we, you know, Canadians want climate action. On the second. Second thing I'd point to is, we've done a lot of tracking as well, around Canadians views on the importance of oil and gas to Canada's current economy and to its future economy. And so, you know, there again, we see what you might expect, which is people there's a recognition that oil and gas is important to Canada's current economy. Views tend to drop off a little bit in terms of its importance to the future economy, but much stronger than I would have anticipated in terms of the level of, you know, opinions when it comes to the strength, or when it comes to the importance, apologies of oil and gas and Canada's current and future economy. One thing I'm just going to, you know, like heads up, we've got a study coming out very shortly. And we've seen a jump in Canadians' views around the importance of oil and gas to the country's current and future economy. And we're thinking that this might be because of economic conditions having changed, you know, the war, Russia's war in Ukraine, just creating a different kind of an environment for Canadians opinions, then the last thing I point to that, for me is kind of been surprising, but in a not always fun way is that we've also been tracking Canadians views on government's performance on energy and climate issues. And then it doesn't matter what aspect of government performance we ask people about, they always score it like so weak, like weak to the point, when we first asked this question, I'm like, Nick, do people you know, just kind of score governments weekly? And so this is just, you know, typical stuff. He's like, No, Monica, that's really low scores. So I think there's a recognition there on the part of Canadians that governments have a lot of work to do, that this is difficult stuff, to to to take on. But that we're going to need to if we're going to be able to achieve some of our climate ambition in the country.

Dan Seguin  16:27

Now, let's dig into the research. First, can you tell us who you're convening and bringing together to conduct your research and who your intended audience is? Who do you want to influence? 

Monica Gattinger  16:42

Yeah, so we're bringing together leaders, from business, from government and from government, we're referring to both policymakers and regulatory agencies, leaders from indigenous organizations, from civil society organizations, like environmental NGOs, and then academics, like myself. And our aim is really with the research and convening that we're undertaking is to inform decision making, you know, so the key audience for this from our perspective as government decision makers, whether policymakers or regulators at, you know, at at any level of government, really, more broadly, in our we're working very closely with the energy and climate community at large. So our intended audience isn't, you know, sort of the general public per se, although I like to think that we're sort of working on their behalf in terms of a lot of the work, a lot of the work that we're doing

Dan Seguin  17:37

Great stuff, Monica, now, let's talk about your first multi year research phase, public confidence in energy decision making. Why is it important to start here?

Monica Gattinger  17:49

Yeah, for us, this was really crucial to try to dig into and understand why we are facing these challenges to public confidence in decision making, for energy and climate issues. And, you know, believe it or not, we spent about two years trying to dig into that problem and identify all of its different, all of its different components. So we published a study in that first phase of research called system under stress, where we were focusing on energy decision making, and the need to inform, sorry, to reform energy decision making in that study, and this was sort of how we unpack this challenge of public confidence. We use this metaphor of elephants, horses, and sitting ducks. And so the elephants were elephants in the room. So at that time, one of the big issues that was, you know, informing or leading to challenges in public confidence was that there was a belief on the part of quite a few folks that governments were taking insufficient action on climate change. And as a result of that, not having a forum, you know, to move forward action on climate change, many folks who were concerned about that or raising those issues in regulatory processes for individual energy projects, right? And if your regulators say, well, that's not part of my mandate. So what would we do with this, and that led to some challenges. Another Elephant, you know, another elephant in the room at that time was reconciliation with indigenous peoples, that there was insufficient action on the part, you know, on the, you know, in the minds of many around reconciliation with indigenous peoples and so, you know, some of the big challenges that indigenous communities were facing, whether missing, murdered indigenous women, you know, potable drinking water, economic conditions, a whole host of challenges were also being raised in the context of individual energy project decision making. The process for lack of other forums to take those concerns to another elephant in the room was cumulative effects. Right. So communities were concerned not necessarily about a particular project, but about the project that came before the project, who was going to come after it, and what would be the cumulative effects on their community. So that was sort of the elephant, the elephant in the room policy gaps, basically, that governments needed to take more action to fulfill. When it came to the horses, we were referring to horses that had left the barn. So in other words, changes in society and the broader, you know, context, where you're not going to turn the clock back on them. So things like, you know, people expect, rightly, to have a say, in decisions that affect them. They're not different, you know, they don't defer the way they used to, to governments and to decision makers, they expect to have a say in decisions that affect them. And some of our decision making processes weren't frankly, providing sufficient opportunities for them to be heard. Technological change, right, you know, you're not going to turn the clock back on social media. And that also has fundamentally changed the context in terms of how information circulates capacities for misinformation, disinformation, etc. And so when against this backdrop, you know, who are the sitting ducks? Well, the sitting ducks are government decision makers, right? They're trying to deal with all of these challenges. We got a lot of traction with that report, Dan, because I think it sort of helped people to, you know, frame up, what is the nature of the challenge that we're facing when it comes to public confidence, which of course, then begins to open up solution spaces?

Dan Seguin  21:40

Okay. What did you uncover when it came to the role of local communities?

Monica Gattinger  21:46

Yeah, we did a major study on this, it was some of this was happening concurrently. But we did a major study in collaboration with the Canada West Foundation, where we did some very deep dive case study research on half a dozen energy projects across the country with the aim of identifying drivers of local community satisfaction or dissatisfaction with energy project, decision making processes. So these were projects, you know, wind, gas plants, hydro facilities, transmission lines, pipelines, shale development, like a whole variety of different kinds of projects in different locations across the country. And so there are a few things I'd point to there in terms of some of the key findings. Probably the first and foremost is the importance of early and meaningful consultation and engagement. And I feel kind of silly saying that, because it's like, we have been saying this for years, how important this is. But yet, you know, there are still proponents that aren't necessarily, you know, aren't necessarily getting out there early and in a meaningful way, to communities. I think the second thing, and it's related, that I'd point to is the importance of information, like yes, communities want information about a project. But it's an what we refer to in the report is a necessary but insufficient condition, right, just saying, you know, here's the project, here's the information, this should change your mind, if you've got any concerns, really and truly is not is not enough, you need that meaningful engagement, you need to hear from people. And in some instances, this is a third thing I'd point to. In some instances, you know, it's important to draw the distinction between what a community's interests are so it could be, you know, economic development, jobs, etc, but also what their values are. And there may be some projects that even though they might advance the community's interests, in terms of jobs, etc, if they run counter to community values, and what they want to see developed in their community, it will be very challenging to foster support for up for a project. Another thing, we found just a couple more things that point to here. Another thing we found that I think is going to be increasingly important as we move on net zero and emissions reductions, oftentimes at the community level, the key environmental issue is local environmental impacts, as opposed to global climate change impacts. So even if you've got a project that's going to be good for the climate, if it's got local environmental impacts from the perspective of a community, those concerns may actually trump the good that could be done more broadly when it comes to the climate. And so I guess the last thing I'd point to is, you know, just the importance of process, having a decision making process in which people can have faith. And so, you know, we did a lot of work right in communities. So you'd have community members say, like, I can get behind a decision that I don't agree with, you know, if my perspective is at the end of the day, we're heard in a meaningful way and were considered in a meaningful way. But governments decided to go in a different direction. I can, you know, I can live with that as long as I felt that the process was one that was legitimate. So that process piece is so important at the community level.

Dan Seguin  25:02

Okay, now, what were some of the biggest takeaways from your project? Monica? Were you surprised by any of the data?

Monica Gattinger  25:09

Yeah, I think, you know, for me, I probably go back to the local versus global impacts piece, I think that is a circle, we're gonna have to figure out how to square for lack of a better a better metaphor here going forward, because many of the projects that we're going to need in the years ahead in terms of emissions reductions, they are going to have local environmental impacts. You know, and it doesn't take long to think about examples of that, right. So think about mining for critical minerals, think about transmission infrastructure, think I mean, on and on and on. And so thinking through how do we, you know, be respectful of local communities ensure we've got processes in place that that they can have faith in and ensure that local environmental impacts are mitigated in a meaningful fashion? And frankly, no has to be an option sometimes, right? There are some projects that have to receive a no of all projects are greenlighted, that puts the entire system into question in people's minds.

Dan Seguin  26:15

Okay, Monica, your second research phase just concluded Canada's energy future in an age of climate change. What challenges and opportunities were you focused on? And what did you uncover?

Monica Gattinger  26:28

That's a big question, Dan. So maybe just a couple of things I'll point to. The first is to say that, you know, for that particular project, because it was or that phase because it got underway at a time where there was quite a lot of fractiousness between the federal and provincial governments. We took on the topic of polarization, in that phase of the research to try to understand, you know, just how polarized are we, when it comes to energy and climate issues? And, and the, you know, the, the, the fortunate answer was that we're not as polarized as we might think, on some of these issues. So those areas where, you know, people's opinions are truly at opposite ends of a spectrum, they've got their heels dug in, the opinions are very hardened and crystallized, they're not willing to move, you know, there's, those are very few and far between a lot more of the division that we see back to that word division that we talked about earlier, Dan, it so those are opinions that are maybe a little bit more malleable to change, where you can potentially bring people together and have a constructive, constructive conversation to move things forward. So that the polarization, the polarization work, I think was really important to try to, you know, shine a light empirically on just how polarized are we, one thing that did come out of that work, though, that I think is really important to note is that a lot of the polarization that we see is along partisan lines. And so it's really important to have and create non-partisan forums for people to come together because partisan polarization on energy and climate issues can be quite challenging. So we looked at polarization, we also looked at, we continued our work around sort of roles and responsibilities of different government authorities in energy and climate decision making, we did a really big project around energy regulators with, you know, again, thinking about how important they are going to be in the future when it comes to energy project proposals and evaluating energy project proposals. And I think, you know, what came out of that work is just the importance of creating regulatory frameworks that are functional, right, they're going to enable us to get to a decision. But that is adaptable. You know, we know there are going to be new energy sources, new technologies we're going to need to be adapting our frameworks over time. And that are, you know, absolutely this crucial element and of legitimate that they are that people have confidence in those decision making processes. But it's not just about regulators. It's also about the broader policy context within which they work, you know, the need for regulatory agencies to be operating in the context of clear policy frameworks. You know, for there to be a good understanding between policymakers and regulators they have their respective roles when it comes to things like energy project, energy project approvals. The third area that we focused on in this most recent phase of research was models of and limits to consensus building, right. So if we do have division, how do we try to foster consensus and we recognize we're not going to get to you know, everybody holding hands and singing Kumbaya there. This is politics, there will be, there will be divisions. But we did a lot of work on this whole concept of what are some of the models that can be utilized to foster consensus? What are some of the limits to those models? And the sort of bottom line of that research is that progress is possible when it comes to consensus building, but it's not easy. It's a hard one, it takes time, it takes a lot of thoughtful preparation and care to put in place processes that will drive towards positive outcomes.

Dan Seguin  30:32

Okay. Now, there were five case studies that came out of this phase intended to identify what works when it comes to public confidence in decision making. What are some of the highlights?

Monica Gattinger  30:44

Yeah, and this kind of picks up on the question of consensus building and models of and limits to consensus building. So we undertook a number of case studies of different initiatives that have been tried in Canada to try to foster consensus. So we looked, for example, at the Alberta climate leadership plan, we looked at the Eco fiscal commission, we looked at the National roundtable on the environment of the economy, we looked at the just transition Task Force on the coal fired power phase out. So this was a mixture of federal provincial, government, non government, current past initiatives. And there are a few things that I point to that, you know, came out of that work. The first is that there are no silver bullets. I mean, Boy, wouldn't it be nice if there were easy answers to these really tough questions, but there are not easy answers to these really tough questions. They, you know, it really is important to, to have kind of a multi pronged approach. And more than one approach, there isn't going to be one single initiative that's going to solve all of these challenges. But process matters process really matters. So who is involved? How are decisions taken? You know, is the process seen as legitimate? That's really, you know, absolutely the place to start with any of these processes around consensus building. Again, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right. So you can have in place a process that is designed to, you know, bring forward recommendations to the government on policy. But if people don't have trust in the information that's produced by that initiative, you've got a problem, right? So I think the Eco fiscal commission was really interesting in that, in that case, because it brought together an advisory board, that included representation from a variety of different political parties, the aim being to see if these folks can come together, and you know, work together and have confidence in this process, then others are more likely to have confidence in the information that's produced on the studies that are produced by by in that case, the ecofiscal, commission, there are a lot of relationships between different processes. So for example, you know, if you think about the development of a carbon price in Canada, you know, yes, that's where the Eco fiscal commission was focusing a lot of its efforts. But the Alberta climate leadership plan, in part paved the way towards the development of a federal price on carbon, because of the work that was done in the province to put in place a carbon pricing a carbon pricing scheme. And then the final thing, and this isn't something that people always like to hear, unfortunately, is that building consensus takes time. And it's something that is, as we know, in the current context with, you know, with climate change is something that we don't necessarily have the luxury of having. So it's how do you sort of hold those two things in your hand at the same time, and I often use the example of a carbon tax, having a carbon tax in Canada is a massive achievement for the country. But it took probably a decade or more to get there. And that's only one small in the big scheme of things policy tool. So you know, no silver bullets. It takes time, but it is possible. So progress is possible, but it's hard won.

Dan Seguin  34:12

Okay, now, this was fascinating. Monica, you identified two realities of energy and environmental leaders in Canada, when it comes to Canada's energy transition. Maybe you can unpack that for us just a bit more.

Monica Gattinger  34:29

Yeah, for sure. So this was a really, really neat study, one of the things that we found in our work, because we convene when we are, you know, very close to a lot of energy and environmental leaders. One of the things that we were finding is that this word transition could have elements to it that were kind of polarizing. And so for some folks, it was something that actually drove them away from our table rather than bringing them to our table. So being academics, we thought, well, let's do a study on this. What do people think transition is? What does it mean to them? Why are we running into these issues? And I have to credit our former Research Director, Dr. Marissa Beck, this was her idea, it was her study, she did an absolutely tremendous job. So she went out there and spoke with over 40 energy and environmental leaders across the country. And, and what, you know, what emerged from that work was that there were really two different realities that people inhabited, either, you know, sort of in whole, or in part, when it comes to transition. And we didn't name the realities, we just stated them, you know, in a very, in a very sort of fact based way. And they differed in terms of scope, and pace of change. And, you know, so in one of the realities, you know, the, the idea is that we're going to have a more measured pace of change, it's going to be driven by market developments, some policy developments, we're going to in the future have, you know, a diverse energy portfolio that's going to include, you know, a variety of different energy sources, yes, in different proportions than we currently have them. But you know, that oil and gas, for instance, is going to be a part of the future. So that's sort of one reality, the other reality grounded in a much more, you know, ambitious, rapid, need for change, quickly grounded in science, much stronger role for government in terms of setting out the policy framework, much greater attention to the need to, notably to phase down oil and gas and in particular oil. And so you can imagine if you've got folks inhabiting these different realities, it is difficult for them to come together, because they're often talking past. They're often talking past one another. And, and so we didn't necessarily have any solutions for this proposed in that particular, in that particular study. I think our work really does try to do some convening around those issues. But what it really did in this particular study resonated so well, with folks in the Energy and Environment communities, we had people saying, like you just nailed it. Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. And so you would have folks say, you know, well, the reality is, or we just need an honest conversation. But what the reality meant to them, what an honest conversation would mean to them was, was something completely different than folks inhabiting the other reality. And so these are the kinds of challenges, you know, Dan, that we, we hope to shed light on with our work. And we also hope to also address the research and convening as well.

Dan Seguin  37:50

Now, your third phase has just begun. What can you tell us so far, about strengthening public confidence on the road to net zero and the areas you're looking to cover in your research over the next several years?

Monica Gattinger  38:07

Yeah, no, that's a great opportunity to share this with you, Dan. Thanks. Thanks so much. So yeah, I mean, if our first phase was focused on public confidence, and kind of the here and now, second phase was Canada's energy future in an age of climate change, this phase is the longest term, longest term phase yet in terms of looking at net zero. And looking at 2050. We've got four areas that we're focusing in on in terms of this research, that really build in many ways on the work that we've done to date, we've been talking so far data about the importance of regulation, and having energy project decision making systems that are going to foster and support the kind of change to our energy systems that we're going to need. That's a big, a big area for us, one of the areas as well, that we're going to start to be getting into an in a more meaningful way, is downstream regulation as well, because with the, you know, with the growing attention to electrification, this is going to mean, you know, greater focus to what are our regulatory frameworks for energy delivery, whether it's in power markets, or in gas markets. And we think that there's, there's something that we will have to offer there as well, in terms of our work. So that's on the regulatory front. Another topic that for us, we think is really important is this whole question of energy security. And by that, you know, again, this isn't just about what's happening in global energy markets, it's what's happening domestically as well in terms of the need of the need to have reliable and affordable energy to ensure that we don't, you know, take one step forward and then two steps back on emissions reductions. So it's really very much about solving for Yes, emissions reductions and affordable reliable energy simultaneously, which in our observation is something that you know, has has not always been on the radar of policymakers, I think the energy system has just done such a great job of providing reliable, affordable energy that it's not always thought about. And yet, you know, if we're going to be transforming our energy systems, it better be front and center. Or we could really run into some challenges in terms of public confidence on the road ahead. The third area we're zeroing in on is intergovernmental collaboration. We are a federation, we are a federation with increasing roles and authority for indigenous governments, as well. So it's really about how do we make sure we've got good collaboration between federal, provincial, territorial, indigenous and municipal governments on the road ahead. And again, it's that kind of collaboration, collaboration piece. And then finally, we're going to continue with the public opinion survey research. And that work generally aims to support the other streams of research. So we're asking questions that relate to some of the broader work that we're doing. Cool. Okay.

Dan Seguin  41:07

I know you're going to tell me it's early Monica, but based on what the data and public service have shown over these many years, is Net Zero. resonating with people?

Monica Gattinger  41:19

Well, interestingly, so last June, we held a conference to mark the, you know, the conclusion of phase two and the launch of phase three. And we did some public opinion survey research going into that conference, including some questions around net zero. So we asked people if they had heard about net zero. And then we asked them, you know, the dreaded open ended question, and what does it mean to you? So it's one thing to have heard about, it's another thing to, you know, be asked to define it. And I was really surprised at like, the majority, like a strong majority of people had heard of net zero. And when asked to define it provided a definition that was pretty on target. So people, you know, I don't know if that means it's resonating with people. But they have definitely absorbed that this concept, and that this is something that, you know, is in policymakers is in policymakers minds. I think the other thing I would note, though, is you know, there's netzero, and then there's just emissions reductions writ large, the work that we've done around Canadian support for emissions reductions, climate change, policy, etc, shows just time and again, Canadians want to see this, they want to see emissions reductions, they want to see it done in a balanced way back to the pragmatic response I was giving earlier. But they're definitely, definitely committed to that.

Dan Seguin  42:43

Okay, now, when do you expect your first publication will be shared?

Monica Gattinger  42:47

So we've got our quarterly public opinion surveys that come out every few months. We actually have some, we're just finalizing a study right now that will be published very, very shortly. In terms of the research publications, we've got two underway right now, that should be published within the next number of months. One is looking at regulation for project decision making, and in particular, this whole question of timelines. So if you talk with folks, you know, in industry and in government, right now, they'll say, Well, we got to build all this stuff. But can we build it fast enough? And so that's actually the title of the project? Can we build it out fast enough? And we're focusing on what are some of the issues when it comes to regulatory frameworks for project decision making. So that's one study that should be coming out within the next few months. And then a second one, it's republication of a study that we completed for the Canadian Gas Association, electricity Canada and Natural Resources Canada, but this time last year, which was looking at regulation of energy delivery systems and power and gas markets, you're looking at international case studies to try to identify like, how are other countries grappling with the challenges of netzero in their power and gas markets. So we're going to be updating and republishing that study. We're in the process of doing that right now, that should be coming out in the next few months. And the case studies that we're looking at in that research are Western Australia, the United Kingdom, which as you might imagine, is a very interesting case study given the challenges that they've had on their power and gas markets. And New York State.

Dan Seguin  44:25

Just wondering here, is there anything you can tell us about your appointment to the province's New Energy Transition panel, its objectives and how you feel this could move the energy conversation forward in Ontario.

Monica Gattinger  44:39

Thanks for the question. I mean, I'm, you know, let's be honest, I'm an energy geek. And so it is just an unbelievable honor to have been appointed to the panel. This for me, is a dream appointment. I'm just so so so enthused about it. I'm not going to be able to speak on behalf of the panel. It's too Early in our work, but I will just share, you know, in my personal capacity now that I think the panel does have the capacity or the potential to be really quite important to the province's energy future. So if you think about, you know, the research that we've been doing at positive energy, the importance of informed decision making on the part of governments to recognize all of the strengths, limitations, consequences, intended or otherwise, of their decisions on energy and climate. So the panel, I think, has a great opportunity to help inform decision making. But as I've said, on a couple of occasions, today, information is a necessary but insufficient condition, right process matters. And, you know, the panel, again, has the potential to be a very important process in terms of its engagement, and meaningful engagement with stakeholders, with indigenous partners, with all those who are interested in the province's energy future. So, you know, a couple of just additional things I would say. One is that the panel's focus in its mandate on long term energy planning, I think, I think is very important, because we're gonna need to plan and think through the long term more than we ever have before in terms of our energy systems when it comes to emissions reductions. I think the other thing, you know, I would lastly, but not leastly, I would recognize, you know, the importance of affordability and reliability. You know, yes, undertaking emissions reductions, but ensuring it's done in a reliable and affordable way. That enables, you know, economic competitiveness and the like. And that's something that, you know, that this government, the Ontario government, brings to the table, which I think is extremely important and will be crucial for the future.

Dan Seguin  46:53

Okay, Monica. Now, if you could speak to everyone in Canada, what would you want people to know, that you think is not widely known? Or understood?

Monica Gattinger  47:06

Yeah, there are a few things I would point to there. I think one would be the scale of the transformation that we're contemplating with netzero. I mean, if you take electrification, just as an example, you know, about only about 20% of and use energy, I mean, I'm telling you this, Dan, you know, all this stuff, but only about 20%. The venue's energy, you know, is currently accounted for by electricity. If we're looking to scale that up, you know, depending on what model you look at, but let's say you're looking to scale that up to you know, 80%, that's four times what it where it currently stands, this is a massive, massive transformation of our energy systems and broader economy. And I think that's one area where, you know, there isn't necessarily as much understanding as there could be in terms of the scale. Like, the second thing that I would love to get out there is that, you know, there's often a view that industry is, you know, dragging its heels, it's, you know, putting in place roadblocks, it's acting as a barrier. That's not what I see, in our engagements with folks in industry across the country, and a whole variety of different energy, different segments of the energy sector. Industry is there. What, you know, the real challenge now is kind of how do we move from the what, to the how, and foster an environment that will foster the kind of change that the companies are really looking to make. And then the third area that I would point to is reconciliation with indigenous peoples. We haven't spoken about that too much this morning. But that's one of the areas over the last number of years where there has just been such a fundamental change in the way industry, and indigenous communities and governments are working together. I think what we often see in you know, in the newspapers in the media is instances of conflict, you know, for obvious reasons, that's, that's, you know, what the media is going to be drawn to, but there are so many examples of just unbelievably constructive, meaningful partnerships between indigenous communities and industry. And I think that's something that you know, that that really is, is just a wonderful, wonderful change over the last few years.

Dan Seguin  49:24

Lastly, Monica, wemalways end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. I'm hoping you say you're ready.

Monica Gattinger  49:33

Okay, I'm ready. I'll do my best. 

Monica Gattinger  49:36

Here we go.What are you reading right now?

Monica Gattinger  49:39

I am reading The Heart Goes Last by Margaret Atwood. You would think you know, during a global pandemic, you wouldn't read dystopian fiction, but that's what I'm doing. Terrific. Terrific book. by Margaret Atwood.

Dan Seguin  49:52

Okay, Monica, what would you name your boat? If you had one or maybe you do have one?

Monica Gattinger  49:58

I do not have one but if I did I think I would name it Smooth Sailing, because that's what I'd want to be doing when I was on my boat. 

Dan Seguin  50:05

Okay, who is someone that you really admire? 

Monica Gattinger  50:09

Oh, without question. My parents. You know, we've had some pretty tragic things happen in my family and they have, you know, continued to be positive soldier on, be great grandparents to my kids, I don't know how they do it, I admire them to the moon and back, as they say,

Dan Seguin  50:26

Okay, moving on, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witness? That's a

Monica Gattinger  50:33

tough one, I think I'd say I spent a lot of time outdoors. We have dogs. So I'm often out with the dogs, I ride horses. So I'm often out horseback riding anything in nature, there are so many magical moments where you see, you know, ways that animals are interacting with one another or things happening. Things happening in the, you know, in the plant environment and ecosystem that to me are just magical, and remind me of just how little we know about the world around us.

Dan Seguin  51:06

Okay, Monica, that's cool. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,

Monica Gattinger  51:13

My family has been extremely fortunate during the pandemic. So yeah, it feels almost kind of trite to talk about challenges. I think if there's one thing that I would point to, though, it's the last time it's the last time notably, in my family's case, between my sons and their grandparents. You know, my youngest son used to go to his grandparents house every day after school, they'd feed him snacks, he'd come home, that's gone. They've you know, they've they're missing him growing into a young man, that's, that's been really, really tough. I mean, it's a first world problem. I, you know, we really have been fortunate. But that last time is, unfortunately, and we're just not going to get that back.

Dan Seguin  51:58

Now, we've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What are some of your favorite shows are movie

Monica Gattinger  52:06

I could talk for hours about this. But if I had to just pick one, the whole Yellowstone series, I am just crazy for that series, you know, because I horseback ride anything that involves horses and ranches. And my own family history, you know, involves homesteading. Just that whole series Yellowstone 1883 1923. And he was talking about magic down the fact that all of that comes out of Taylor Sheridan's brain that fast I have, I don't understand at all. But I really enjoy watching it. That series is just phenomenal.

Dan Seguin  52:45

Lastly, Monica, what is exciting you about your industry right now.

Monica Gattinger  52:50

I think it's the people who are now on the let's roll up our sleeves face. And let's figure out how to know how to get this done. There's the waterfront of challenges seems endless, but the fact that that there's much more alignment among industry, government, civil society, you know, take your pick indigenous organizations, etc, about ensuring that we're reducing emissions, and, you know, the desire to work together to figure out how, to me is really exciting.

Dan Seguin  53:20

Well, Monica, this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy Podcast. Thank you so much for joining me today. If our listeners want to learn more about you and your organization, how can they connect or find out more?

Monica Gattinger  53:35

We have a website that you will be welcomed to, to reach out to just type into Google "University of Ottawa positive energy" and it should pop up for you. People are welcome to reach out to me personally, you know, again, easy to find me on the Internet, email addresses and the like. I'd be happy to hear from people.

Dan Seguin  53:55

Again. Thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you have a lot of fun.

Monica Gattinger  53:59

This was great. Thanks, Dan. Really appreciate the opportunity. 

Monica Gattinger  54:03

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of the thinkenergy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com I hope you will join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

With goals like net zero by 2050, Canada is a leader in the energy transition movement. But another deadline looms – decarbonization of the electricity sector by 2035. It’s 82% emissions-free now, but big challenges remain. Multiple grids governed by individual provinces and territories, regional resources, politics and economics. In thinkenergy episode 105, Moe Kabbara, Vice President of The Transition Accelerator, unpacks the value of an integrated electricity grid and the Electrifying Canada initiative.

Related links

• The Transition Accelerator: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/

• The Transition Accelerator, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/transition-accelerator/ 

• The Transition Accelerator, Twitter: https://twitter.com/CanAccelerator  

• Electrifying Canada: https://transitionaccelerator.ca/electrifying-canada/ 

• Moe Kabbara, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/moekabbara/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Meaning Canada's long term climate goals will require a profound transformation of contemporary systems in order to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. One of these major transitions we're seeing around the world is with the energy sector. Canada is certainly at the forefront of the energy transition movement, and seen as a leader on the world stage thanks to its targets to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But there's another much closer interim deadline looming with respect to Canada's Net Zero targets. And that's the decarbonisation of Canada's entire electricity sector by 2035. If we don't achieve that, it's very unlikely we will meet our 2050 Climate goal. In fact, many experts believe there is no pathway to net zero without zero emission electricity. Although Canada's electricity sector is currently at 2% emission free today, removing the remaining fossil fuels from our system is still an ambitious goal to achieve in under 12 years, mainly because we don't have one national electricity grid, we have multiple electricity grids overseen by their respective province, or territory. To further complicate matters, different regions in Canada have different resources. Some are water rich, while others are rich in oil and gas. And of course, there is also reasonable politics and economics at play. As we move forward in the new world of electrification, from transportation to how we heat and cool our homes and businesses, it's believed that we will need a lot more electricity than currently produced. So here's today's big question. What is it going to take to achieve the federal government's target to have 100% emission free electricity by 2035? Today, my special guest is Mo Kibera, Vice President of the transition accelerator, a national not for profit organization that is working to advance Canada's 2050 climate targets in multiple sectors. Our guest oversees a new initiative called electrifying Canada. And we're going to talk about that and the need for an integrated electricity grid in Canada. Moe, welcome to the show. Now, perhaps you can start by telling us a bit about yourself and how the transition accelerator came to be.

Moe Kibera  03:26

Yeah, so my name is Moe Kibera. I'm the Vice President at the transition accelerator. My background has been in clean energy and climate for you know, over a decade now started working in sort of applied research context on renewables and energy storage. I had a thermal energy storage startup in Atlantic Canada, and that I worked in energy efficiency consulting, I worked in Investment Attraction for automotive sector and batteries, specifically related to EVs, that I also I went back into consulting worked on various projects when it comes to like electricity, electric vehicles, battery supply chain. And, yeah, I've been with the accelerator, you know, for since last year, and, you know, the accelerator came to be around 2019, really, with the idea or the basic philosophy that, but it emphasizes that, you know, LinkedIn climate concerns, the broader efforts to really improve society and your disruptive and transformative changes that are going to be reshaping the world around us. So it's really based on the idea of transition. And the idea of transition is not necessarily just about the technology itself, but it's about all the different political, social, economic aspects that come with it. So really, the methodology that the Accelerator has established which is basically methodology or theory of pain of how do we actually get you know, We get to transition out of the systems that we need to bring, you know, new systems that we need to bring forward. And it really starts with examining the issue. So that's really starting with our first kind of approach is understanding. So understanding what are the current systems that we use? How did they come to be, and, and basically, understand the forces that are disrupting the way that we do things. The second approach is called developing or working with stakeholders to co develop the pathways for the future. The number three is analyzing those pathways, and assessing things like costs and benefits and trade offs and public accessibility barriers and bottlenecks. And then the fourth thing, which is how do we get things into the real world, which is advancing, and we've been working on kind of putting off consortia and alliances, that actually are supposed to be implementing the pathways. So it's not about we're not like we like to say we're not a think tank, we're a do tank. So that's kind of our approach and possibly overall.

Moe Kibera  06:13

Dan Seguin  06:13

Okay, how about we dive into your newly launched initiative, electrifying Canada? What is it all about?

Moe Kibera  06:22

Yeah, I mean, the idea is really going to be that electrifying Canada is an initiative that brings together stakeholders, from industry, labor, indigenous groups, civil society, all have a vested interest in accelerating and use electrification, and the build out of a netzero electricity system. And basically, our vision is that we see that widespread electrification can enable an affordable and resilient, clean energy system that powers Canada's economy and kind of gives us a competitive edge when it comes to industrial activities as well. So really, the idea there is that we know electrification is going to be a critical path to get to zero. We can talk about all the other solutions like hydrogen and r&g and the role that they can play, which is great, but what we really know right now is that if occasion is ready to go solution that we need to start on regardless. So it's really about trying to get different stakeholders together, the right voices, the key voices that are needed for action. And that includes, you know, the major TriCity users. So the we needed we needed voice, you know that companies that need electricity or or sectors like transportation and buildings that are going to be in need of electricity to decarbonize, but also includes the supply side of the compensation. So the utilities and the developers and the regulators, that's the we can build it voice. And then the finance community that is looking for investment opportunities in the face, you can finance this, for the bank, the pension fund is the financial institution. But then also bringing into overtime, NGOs, think tanks, the you know, that are working on advancing solutions in the space. So it's really, um, you can think of it as an umbrella initiative, trying to bring everybody that's working on this topic under its wings. And we've we've successfully done that we have 28 partners, that includes all the major players in this in the country working on electrification. And then the sort of activities that we're going to be looking at are research analysis, public outreach, engagement, developing policy frameworks. So we are going to be going across the country this month, starting next week, until April, we're going to be visiting eight cities. So we're going to actually meet people in person where they need them where they're at both physically and metaphorically speaking. And that's going to be the first step to establish the form, which is working as, you know, not just a one off conversation, but as an extended form, to have collaboration, ordination and partnerships. So we're very excited about this initiative. And, yeah, very quickly, we're at/

Dan Seguin  09:22

Mo, can you remind us what some of Canada's key target dates are?

Moe Kibera  09:27

Yeah, I mean, just the very, very big picture. Canada has committed to reaching that zero cross architecture by 2050. And then when we look at some of the sectoral target, we have a target to get to a net zero electricity grid by 2030 500%. New sales of vehicles being zero emissions by 2035 60% of new vehicles being zero emissions by 2030. building sector sector oil contribution Uh, you know, readmission reduction 40% reduction by 2030. So a lot of these different targets when it comes to decarbonisation in the building sector and transportation sector and electricity system, all going to require a huge effort today, and two, that we need to get, get get working on right away. So these are very, you know, ambitious target, and we definitely support them. But that means that we really need to understand the barriers and advanced solutions very quickly, because we're going to meet the target, we're going to be, you know, we need everybody to come on board, and to really have a concrete strategic strategic approach to the widespread electrification and the build out of electricity systems.

Dan Seguin  10:52

Okay, for a follow up question Mo. What does electrification mean? And are these targets driving it?

Moe Kibera  11:00

Yeah, so I mean, I think that really, if you think about it, electrification is basically moving away from technology, that use of your, that coal, oil or natural gas, with technology, they use electricity as a form of energy. So depending on, you know, how you generate electricity, electrification can be zero emission, right. So the idea is that, if I have electricity coming from solar, and I use that solar, they use electricity to write to charge my Eevee, then my Eevee is Eurovision both at the source and also in terms of the upstream emissions. But if I have gasoline in my vehicle, there's really no net zero compatible pathway to getting like I can continue on in improving the emission standards of the vehicle. But at the end of the day, I'm limited by laws of thermodynamics, that I'm always going to have emissions and, and low efficiency for internal combustion engines. So electrification is really using electricity as a source of energy, as opposed to fossil fuels or molecule fuels. And in basically the notion of like, well, we can get electrons that have molecules of fuel. And if we can get the electrons to be centralized in terms of production, and clean electricity, then we can use that to decarbonize our sectors. So a target that I mentioned, they're not necessarily prescriptive, exactly how to decarbonize. So zero emission vehicles include things like, like fuel cell vehicles, and it just, you know, like hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. But the clearest pathway right now, in terms of what are some of the ready to go solutions that we can implement today would be electrification. So that's why those targets are driving the need to electrify because it is something that we can get started right away and technology is available. So electric vehicles have ramped up significantly over the last two years, battery costs went down by 90%. In the last 10 years. Heat pumps are also available and ready to go. decarbonize our buildings. So I think that's really what's driving expectations, because it's a very clear path to get started on right now.

Dan Seguin  13:34

So will electrification mean that we will need more electricity? And if so, how much more?

Moe Kibera  13:43

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. Definitely, it's going to mean that we're, we're going to need more electricity, because we're going to be, you know, displacing fossil fuel use without with with another source of energy, which is electricity. So that come from somewhere. debate. And it's not very clear that part of what we're doing now with electron now that we're doing a meta analysis of all the studies that have been published over the last 18 months to look at, what is the expected demand growth, you know, just a quick scan of literature and Canadian analysis, and I've been done, you know, we're looking at like, maybe doubling or activity grid, and some people say, we're going to triple it. I'm not too concerned about whether it's double or triple right now. I mean, obviously, a very big difference. But what's clear that we need to get started on the pathway over the next few years is going to be the same whether it's double or triple, that we need to really understand what are what are some of the near term opportunity, the near term challenges. So we're gonna need a lot more electricity, but also, some, some of the need for electricity is not going to materialize overnight, right. So people are like, well, we can't electrify a petition because we don't have enough electricity, but transcription transitioning our petition stuff T V doesn't happen overnight. It's something that is as follows sort of a technology diffusion theory of, you know, it's not every neighbor, every vehicle in one neighborhood is going to become a view overnight and plug in. So the idea is that we can actually plan for the certifications like electricity demand. And things like energy efficiency and demand side management and demand response and distributed energy refer to all of the all of these different measures, and be very, very critical to reduce our increased demand. So that, you know, we don't, we don't know, I think that that's the cheapest resource, we can avoid using electricity. That's going to be our first cheapest resource. And then we can build out the delta between what we can basically Well, we can reduce completely right. So the idea is that we're gonna need a lot more electricity. But although there are ways to basically mitigate, you know, the impact on the grid and make sure that it's not necessarily very possibly well, to the to the baseline scenario,

Dan Seguin  16:16

Who are some of the partners in the electrifying Canada initiative? And what does their involvement mean to achieve your overall mission?

Moe Kibera  16:26

Yeah, I mean, so brought together as I mentioned, on the demand side, companies like tech resources and Rio Tinto, on the supply side, you know, we have the electricity alliance of Canada, which includes the industry associations, that electricity Canada, the Canadian Renewable Energy Association, the Canadian Nuclear Association, Marina Renewables, Water Power Canada and Electricity HR. And you know, also we have individual companies like Energetic OPG, as well as organizations like OPG Hydro One. And then on the civil society front, we got Pembina Instituten Netzero Atlantic. On labor, we got maybe EW, that comes from Brotherhood's Electric Workers. Also, we have First Nation major project coalition. It's really a broad coalition, and in terms of their involvement, really, it's about bringing, bringing the different voices together that are needed for action. So understanding the barrier, prioritizing those barriers, understanding the solution, prioritizing the solution, and getting through to have a shared vision of what we need to be working on, you know, on a national level, but also at the regional level. So that's why we're doing a regional approach in terms of, you know, figuring out for each province, what is the framework that we need to be working on for it to get to net zero electricity? So we're very happy to bring together you know, as I mentioned, 28 organizations, that's been, you know, the whole supply chain of electricity, but also include civil society, indigenous people, labor, and also the finance community.

Dan Seguin  18:10

Now, in addition to affordable, resilient and clean, what are some of the other qualities you're looking to achieve in your mission to electrify Canada?

Moe Kibera  18:20

Well, I think that, you know, really thinking through accessibility, and, and, and making sure that the electricity is available to everybody, in terms of, you know, different regional perspectives and different regional representation. So I think that we can get an electricity system that is actually affordable. So we don't have, you know, we don't bankrupt people for energy, which is really critical for us. So that's kind of like a trilemma there. And I think valid, there is a balance there to be struck between affordable, resilient, so resilient and reliable, put them in a box, and they clean. So for me, really, the vision is quite simple. And you wanted to keep it simple, because it's simple, but it's not easy, right? So we know what we need to do. We know what kind of characteristics we want our future electricity system to look like and our future energy system to have. But getting there, it's going to be a challenge. So our philosophy of the accelerator is we're starting with the end state, knowing that we need an electricity system that is affordable Atlantic clean, and then working backwards from there.

Dan Seguin  19:35

Okay. Maybe you can unpack your plans for public outreach and what are you hoping to learn from these more regional conversations?

Moe Kibera  19:46

Yeah, so I mean, we're going to be going to Vancouver Regina, Winnipeg, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, Halifax, St. John's and we're going to be doing also in northern communities and indigenous communities. Some online workshops, to start off, really what we want to do is establish a baseline. So one is we want to understand where each region is in terms of their understanding of the look, the challenge at the regional level. So we're sort of established something called the, we want to start with something called the real world overlay. And it's a framework to really ground everything that we know is a barrier or an issue that will stop us from getting electricity. So that, that includes things like rate increases that include things like lighting constraints, labor constraints, skill needed, the all of these different barriers, we talked about, they're around, people keep mentioning them, but they're not gonna floating in the air, like, like I imagine the the more like floating with the cloud, and part of our objective is to really round them somewhere, so we can actually keep track of them. So what we're hoping to establish is this framework that will be public or developed. So it's not just us doing it. It's the stakeholders, informing it through the sessions that we're hosting, and through the relationships that we're building and the partners that we brought into the initiative, and then having it be evergreen and public. So that, really, if you think of it, this can be the sort of centralized forum for tracking all the barriers and solutions that are being implemented to address those barriers of Quebec. or BC, wants to implement a trial rate structure for low income households. With this framework, we track that over time, so that others who are working on these issues can go in and learn from that in a very kind of centralized and consolidated framework.

Dan Seguin  21:48

Now, why are Canada's electricity systems central to the country's netzero 2050 goals? Do we have a clean energy advantage?

Dan Seguin  22:01

Yeah, I mean, more than 80% of our electricity is already non emitting, which is great. Like relatively to other countries. So that's really gonna, it's one of our biggest value propositions as well, like when thinking about attracting new supply chains like battery manufacturing, and critical minerals extraction, for example. And the idea there is we want to retain that advantage, as we, you know, potentially double or triple our grid, right. So the the core thesis there is that we want to basically build a future electricity system that build on the community connected to the event that we have retained that, and it's going to be as I mentioned, if we're going to use electrification as a key pathway to get to net zero, then that electricity has to be clean. So this is why it's critical,

Dan Seguin  22:54

Okay, well, what would you say, are some of the biggest challenges to the creation of a national strategy and a zero emission pan Canadian electricity grid?

Moe Kibera  23:07

Well, I think the idea there is that we don't have one grid. Right. So that's one of the challenges to start with is because we have sort of a decentralized Federation. So I think that to create a national strategy will require each province to understand where they're, where they're at, and where they want to get to. And right now, it's not a uniform. So we're not, we're not like in the uniform state in terms of every province, kind of understanding that the condition is so BC and Quebec, maybe maybe very different in Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. So we don't have any sort of clarity. So that common framework, so I would say, in terms of the biggest challenge of creating a national strategy is that we need to have each province kind of understand and get their ducks in a row. Before we can really put up, put all the pieces of the puzzle together.

Dan Seguin  24:10

Okay. And in your view, Mo, who leads this and is best positioned to address structural and regulatory obstacles?

Dan Seguin  24:19

Yeah, I mean, I think this is why we want to we wanted to bring and build this coalition, because, you know, at the end of the day, you know, we want you need industry at the table, you need to digitize people to the table, you need to verify the labor, you know, so it can't be just government on its own. It can't be just an industry on its own. So what we're hoping that this initiative will do is provide the sort of good framework to start tackling these issues. And in terms of the regulatory changes, I think there's a role obviously for the provinces or the provincial governments. There's a key role for the federal government and, you know, we're seeing things like the development of clean electricity regulation and the Feds playing that role. So I think that it can't just be a government and it has to be sort of a broader coalition. And that's kind of why we're as part of our fourth step in the accelerator, which is advancing solutions. It's building these consortiums and these alliances that really make sure that we converge on the next steps, and we're not really talking past each other. So I think that provincial governments, Crown corps utilities, vertically integrated utilities in certain provinces, you know, understanding where they're at, and modernizing the sort of regulatory framework so that putting electricity is also part of the mandate of the utilities, which is not necessarily the case right now. And it's something that is going to be critical.

Dan Seguin  25:57

Now, time for the crystal ball, what kinds of major investments need to be made to reach the 2035 timeline?

Moe Kibera  26:08

Well, I think it's really a lot of investments in new infrastructure. So generation, renewables and other non emitting electricity and transmission distribution, it's really about a fully integrated investment strategy that looks at, you know, how much more generation do we need? Can we offset some of that initial duration needs with transmission? Okay, but then at the distribution level, you know, what's going on there, when it comes to substations and transformers, like, a lot, like if you look at, for example, electric vehicle and option, you know, the could the bottleneck is not going to be what we have electricity at the director level bottleneck is going to be, we have the infrastructure at neighborhood levels, right, like, our little over the Transformers in the substation be able to handle all the things that are materializing. And it's going to be more critical, more of an issue in certain areas and than others. So I would say, really, the major investment are not going to be we need to build solar and wind, it's going to be you know, looking at all the solutions on generation solar, wind, nuclear, hydro, potentially, in terms of increasing some competence, some hydro capacity, using more efficient turbines, for example. And then storage, making sure that we have energy storage that can help offset or, you know, some of the increased generation needs so that we can have a more reliable facility. And then on the transmission side, looking at opportunities for regional transmission possible and that can help be a more cost effective way to get electricity added to the capacity of the system. And then on the division side, really looking at the local distribution networks and how it's, you know, the modernization of the assets there, basically meet the demand side, that materializing from transportation and building electrification.

Dan Seguin  28:22

And Mo, are intermittent renewable sources, district energy resources and non wire alternatives being considered. And at what scale?

Moe Kibera  28:34

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think I think it's a great question. So I think that a lot of different jurisdictions, especially in the US, and even here at home, are considering things like non white alternatives and distributed energy resources as a way to mitigate some of the major investments required at the distribution level, potentially even the transmission level. So I think that, you know, we need to basically try to find as much cost savings as possible across the supply chain or across the ecosystem. So thinking through generation, we can't, we have to find sort of the most effective low cost electricity. But then thinking throughout the solution level of we can use things like demand response, non viable alternatives to build energy generation to mitigate some of the heavy, high costs of distribution RCEP, then I think that's something that is being considered and we're doing it I've been involved in sort of comparative analysis in the US to look at, you know, what would, what would it cost if we just kind of do traditional distribution and what would it cost if we did not write alternatives? And then what are the cost benefits there? So I think that is something it is one of the tools in the toolbox for sure.

Dan Seguin  29:56

Now, Canada is a major fossil fuel exporter. With the oil and gas sector generating substantial revenues and supporting 1000s of jobs, oil and gas also contribute 26% of Canada's total greenhouse gas emissions. How do we approach this issue thoughtfully to achieve our climate goals?

Moe Kibera  30:22

Yeah. So I mean, I think there are opportunities to really look at the upstream missions, from the oil and gas sector, and actually using electrification, to help decarbonize the oil and gas sector as well. So thinking through, you know, this, you have, you know, you have the actual emissions that come from burning gas, and then you have the actual emissions that come from producing it. So if we're thinking about the production emissions, you know, there's there are going to be a lot of opportunities to leverage new technologies like carbon capture electrification, but even thinking about the hydrogen that is currently using the oil and gas sector that maybe coming from what we call black hydrogen, turning that into blue or hydrogen. But there's a lot of actually low hanging fruits that can really help us reduce a lot of the oil and gas emissions from coming from production. And then I think about what we're interested in as well as understanding what are the opportunities coming up from an industrial strategy or industrial perspective that can help us, you know, grow sectors or the Canadian economy. So I'm the co-chair of the game battery Taskforce. So it's a taskforce that's focused on basically growing Canada's battery supply chain, and electric vehicle manufacturing. So in that sense, the auto sector contributes 500,000 jobs directly and indirectly, as a youth contributor to GDP. How do we make sure that we retain that advantage when retaining that contribution to the sectors but also grow it because, you know, we want to be able to diversify our economy and be part of an industrial green industrial future. At the accelerator, one things that we're very interested in is industrial policy that is focused on competitiveness, and understanding where that competitiveness comes from, in terms of the emerging sectors, so things like zero emission vehicles, biofuels, hydrogen, aviation, fuels, mass, timber, critical minerals, so we need to basically understand the opportunities that are emerging as part of this new world order of being industrial futures. And I understand how Canada can can play in that so that on the export table, you know, you know, that we're able to sort of elevate some of those protectors, to be able to cover the gap that, you know, will come into play as part of the natural world that is emerging in terms of decreasing reliance on fossil fuels.

Dan Seguin  32:53

Now, how does your initiative electrified Canada fit in the federal government's plan to create a pan Canadian grid Council?

Moe Kibera  33:04

Yeah, so we're, we're working very closely with natural resources, Canada, they're very supportive of this initiative. You know, and we're still kind of keeping our ear to the ground when it comes to the national grid Council. But we hope that basically, this initiative can be sort of a parallel process, in terms of really having INTEL RESEARCH, convening, that can feed into the group Council, because the idea of the good Council is not going to be able to bring together hundreds of people, right, it's going to be more, we don't know exactly what it will look like. But it will be a bit more stark, smaller scale. So the hope there is that the regional engagements that we're doing the sort of more granular analysis that we're doing, can help feed into some of the recommendations and feedback from the grid council. So it's kind of like a parallel process.

Dan Seguin  33:56

Okay. Now, let's go beyond the borders here. What can we learn from the EU or Denmark or other Nordic countries with respect to their cooperation, to expand the electricity grid and decarbonize it?

Moe Kibera  34:13

Yeah. So I mean, I think that for Denmark, and for the rest of Europe, really kind of showcasing the advantage they've had when it comes to renewable energy development. And focusing also on sort of the green electricity advantage. Some of the collaborations or integration that we've seen, even actually in Switzerland, you know, it's really about rent integration, and integrating different grids together. So, you know, in Switzerland, we had a little bit more of a decentralized structure and there was an initiative last few years to kind of bring it together into sort of digital using technology and digitize Vation and sort of modernization efforts to be able to, you know, integrate the math supply in Switzerland and make it a bit more of a national grid. So I think that the lessons there, there's a lot of lessons to be learned. The idea of electricity supply theory of supply is very big in Europe right now. And, and I think that there was a bit of a sort of force of hand, given the crisis in Ukraine, that kind of pushed or accelerated the need for integration. And I think that was a very critical aspect of what were some of the trends you're seeing in terms of good integration there.

Dan Seguin  35:48

Okay. Now, what about lessons from discussions happening with respect to the Atlantic loop? Do you have an update on that?

Moe Kibera  35:57

Well, I think the Atlantic loop, you know, it's gonna be, you know, it's very interesting to see, it really highlighted that there's a lot of challenges when it comes to actually building up a major project like that are still kind of waiting to see especially given you know, Nova Scotia Energy Board, basically put a cap on on a rate increases, which basically prompted Nova Scotia to say that, you know, they're they're going to be put in a position where they can't invest if they can't recover costs from ratepayers. So I think that it's still something that is very, it's going to be a very positive precedent for US and Canada that we can bring together these provinces, you know, multiple provinces together, people had Labrador, Nova Scotia, Quebec, both were New Brunswick. So I think it's going to be obviously a critical project to reach the net zero targets for those for Atlantic Canada, right. So especially for Nova Scotia. So I think that you know, some of it's gonna be interesting to do like a little bit of a post mortem, hopefully, after we're done to basically dissect some of the lessons learned in terms of the barrier of bringing together you know, the different provinces in independent electricity system and also the different structures of the utility right? Nova Scotia has a different structure and then New Brunswick Power and BC Hydro and Hydro Quebec.

Dan Seguin  37:42

What are the biggest obstacles with our provinces when it comes to cooperation, and successfully achieving an integrated grid? How can electrifying Canada play a role?

Moe Kibera  37:56

So I think we don't want to over promise. And I think part of what we're trying to do, and we're very genuine, is to really help kind of, like I mentioned before, round all these different issues and put them somewhere that we can actually understand. And be clear that we're all looking at the same thing, while having a sort of shared understanding of the baseline of where we're at. So I think provinces a big part of it is communication and integration. So a lot of provinces don't necessarily know what other provinces are doing. So when I worked as a consultant, a big part of what we did, or a lot of our clients with fictional scans, so you'd be talking to utility in BC or utility in Alberta. And they'd be like, Why would somebody do it? What are they doing in Quebec? And I think that kind of knowledge sharing is not necessarily there sometimes. And so I think it's something very simple but, but it's something that is going to be very critical, because it's a way for us to turn the challenges of the decentralized Federation into an advantage in terms of running different experiments in different places, because we are able to do that. So trying different rate structures in different provinces trying different programs in different provinces. So what we're trying to do with with overcoming the provincial barriers, is to really offer those lessons learned and best practices and consolidating them into a framework that we're developing, ensuring that ensuring that we are kind of that conduit for information sharing and for integration collaboration,

39:35

Okay. polar opposites now, what are the biggest opportunities that provinces and territories could benefit from with an integrated grid?

Moe Kibera  39:47

Well, I think the biggest opportunity would be to really take advantage of, you know, the differences in the provincial system. So you know, a province that has A lot of when versus a province that has a lot of solar versus a province that has a lot of hydro, you can basically look at the system and try to develop an integrated approach to that. It will be overall cheaper for them to basically work together and take advantage of the different technology that they have. Right. I think really, at the end of the day, if cost reduction, and being able to meet their targets, you know, in a way that it's that that ensures the affordable, resilient, reliable, and clean electricity system.

Dan Seguin  40:39

Okay, so, does reaching the 2035 targets hinge on a unified and integrated grid across Canada? Or can it be achieved without it?

Moe Kibera  40:51

Well, no, I don't think it hinges on a unified electricity grid, I think I think we need to realise that we do have multiple grids and multiple systems. And that we need to start from that position. We need to look at a national approach that can basically help us reduce costs, ensure more reliability, and a cleaner system. But I don't think necessarily, you know, it's either or, it's not like we either have a national grid, or we're never getting there, I think it's more about integrating as much as possible to reduce barriers and to reduce costs.

Dan Seguin  41:36

Now, looking forward to your response to this next question. Is there a huge communication challenge to overcome? I read in the transition accelerators report building path to a sustainable future, that this shouldn't be framed as just about electricity or technology, or even net zero emissions. How do you think electrification, and the climate conversation should be positioned?

Moe Kibera  42:07

I think the climate conversation really at the end of the day, for us, it kind of eats up with the world moving very quickly. So we have things like the Inflation Reduction Act in the US, and we have failed policies emerging in Europe. And all of that is leading us down a path of great green industrial growth and industrial future. So people are driving EVs. Yeah, sure, because of emissions, but really, because the more efficient, the more reliable in terms of, you can just come home and charge it, and you know, how you never have to go to a gas station? Yeah, sure, the issues range, but you know, 99% of the time, it's not really an issue. So we're thinking through a lot of technologies. And we kind of see the climate and that zero emission aspect is a sort of secondary or a, like a byproduct of, of the green industrial transition. And then the candidate position, you know, we want to be able to participate and get all of the economic benefits that come from this being an actual global leader in effectors. And we do have that opportunity, because they have access to critical minerals and metals, they have access to technology and intellectual property development that is happening here, boom, we have the electricity advantage. So for us, really, the framing is about, you know, how do we position Canada to be an economic powerhouse when it comes to green wind technology. Because we technology is obviously going to be needed for climate change. And that we're, you know, but but really, at the end of the day, it's about, you know, taking advantage of the economic benefits that come with that. And as well as the front of the same coin, and given how the world is shifting, and especially as I mentioned, Europe and Europe in the US the demand is there. And how do we basically position ourselves to be able to take advantage of that growing demand and, and be an exporter of different technologies? The world?

Dan Seguin  44:16

Okay, do you truly think we lack a shared vision as Canadians on the future? And how do we get there together? How do we fix it?

Moe Kibera  44:27

I think initiatives like the Canada initiative that we're doing as well, when it comes to the emission vehicle, light chain and building electrification and all these we were involved in several initiatives is the first step right. So I think it's really about understanding what the future could look like, where are the where, what are our strengths? What are what's our value proposition of the country, and then you're using the computations and forums and convening aspect to really sort of tool to create a shared vision. I think that also, you know, making sure that we have communication collaboration between provincial energy depictions is going to be critical. So, yeah, I mean, I think, for us, we really believe that advancing solutions means bringing in the actual people and the stakeholders that are involved in that and implementing the solutions together, and waiting, insistent for collaboration. So if you look at Europe, the Canadian battery, the European Battery Alliance, you know, they brought together hundreds of stakeholders, and they've successfully started to build out a very, you know, sophisticated battery supply chain in Europe. So this kind of private public partnership is, you know, through a third party intermediary, we see that as a very critical tool to actually reaching a shared vision.

Dan Seguin  46:04

Now, there is something I know that's on the top of the list of considerations, customer affordability. What are your thoughts on how we can achieve our goals, while maintaining costs for customers?

Moe Kibera  46:21

Yeah, I mean, I think part of it, part of the process that we're going through is to actually landlord solutions for that issue. And that those solutions can be different for different provinces and different regions. I think that I don't really have the answer. But there's a lot of different but a lot of smart people that we have brought together and part of this ultra pine Canada initiative, have ideas. And like I mentioned before, we need to basically consider those ideas, maybe do some trials. I'll give just one example. You know, one thing could be like a means tested rate structure for low low income households, right. So like, but also we're also thinking about and talking about how energy costs can be reduced because of efficiencies gained through electrification. So if you are somebody that drives a car, and has a baseboard heaters in Quebec, for example, you know, if you can, if you get an electric vehicle, and if you get heat pumps, your energy consumption will actually be reduced, or even a brace increase increased by a little bit, your overall energy costs could potentially be much lower than the existing energy costs. So there's a lot of nuance there. And I think that we need to be careful that nobody's left behind and design our structures to rate structures and how we manage energy costs, to make sure that affordability is top of mind, right? So I think this is something that there's no one answer for every single province or every single region in the country, there's going to be multiple solutions that we can try out multiple suites of solutions that are going to work hand in hand. And we're motivated that by bringing together the coalition that we brought together, we're basically going to be able to get to the answers and advanced solutions.

Dan Seguin  48:13

Now Mo, are you looking at opportunities to integrate our electricity grid with the US? What are the benefits that could help modernize and even optimize our grid with a US partnership?

Moe Kibera  48:28

I think that's a really great conversation. One of our partners, you know, was in the US recently had this exact conversation, I would say, at a high level, we should be exploring all opportunities when it comes to integration, whether it's regional within Canada or cross border, because at the end of the day, as I mentioned, it's about you know, it's very simple. If I have I have access, and you have demand. And then let's make sure that my access goes to your demand. If you have access, and I have demand, let's make sure that your access comes to my demand, and then as a way to reduce, you know, cost because then okay, well, I'm not going to overbuild my generation because there's there's sort of a pathway for me to meet my demand, knowing that there's excess electricity coming from across the border, or vice versa. So I think that the integration with the US is something that is critical for us to consider. But also it's going to be a lot easier once we have our ducks in a row within Canada. Right. So once we have our own strategy and our understanding of what is the delta between what we can do in house, what is the delta, between what we can export, what is our access? That's going to make the conversation we're going to be coming to the conversation from a position of strength and position an advantage right? So I think that it's something that is top of mind, but it seems a little bit a little bit down the road from today. I mean, we already have integration with us, obviously But, in terms of that broader integration, it seems like the conversation is a little bit in the early stages.

Dan Seguin  50:07

Lastly, what's exciting you and giving you hope about the possibility of an integrated and zero emission electricity grid?

Moe Kibera  50:18

Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting that we are going to be able to really decarbonize a huge amount of our sectors under carbon on buildings, reputation, industrial agriculture. And really the idea of having a fully netzero grid. I mean, for Canada, as I mentioned, we're largely not emitting which has been great, but to get to net zero. And what I'm really optimistic about is seeing all of the different efforts that are happening when it comes to electricity generation when it comes to developing some kind of policy certainty for investors. So as I mentioned, this is sort of a trend that is an industrial economic trend. I'm excited to see that coupling that's happening where it's like, it's not either or it's really, this is where the world is headed. This is where the where the money that is where the economy is going at a global level, we need to get there and hey, guess what, as part of this, we get to also get into zero and help, you know, address climate change, but I think that's really what's exciting for me at this point in time is that we reached the stage where there is that integration between, you know, economics and climate.

Dan Seguin  51:36

Okay, sir, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions. Are you ready? For more? What are you reading right now?

51:48

I'm rereading a book called Electrification by Paul Griffith from Rewiring America.

Dan Seguin  51:56

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one? Or maybe you do have one?

Moe Kibera  52:00

I don't. I guess Transatlantic.

Dan Seguin  52:03

Okay. Now, who is someone that you admire?

Moe Kibera  52:08

I really admire Bruce Laurie from the Foundation because I recently had an amazing conversation with him. And you know, the work that he's done, especially with the get Ontario off call,

Dan Seguin  52:17

this next one is always a challenging one. What is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Moe Kibera  52:26

I guess, diving underwater.

Dan Seguin  52:29

Now,what is the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began,

Moe Kibera  52:35

I guess with live music went away. It was tough.

Dan Seguin  52:38

Okay, last one here. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite movie or show?

Moe Kibera  52:47

I really love Succession, an HBO show?

Dan Seguin  52:50

Okay, MO. Lastly, what is exciting about your industry right now.

Moe Kibera  52:55

What's really excited me is the growth. It's really seeing how fast we're growing. You know that it's not necessarily mainstream now. It is the future, we've hit that point of inevitability. And it's really exciting to be that.

Dan Seguin  53:12

Okay, so this is it. We've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. Thank you so much for joining us today, Moe. If our listeners want to learn more about you, or your organization, how can they connect?

Moe Kibera  53:26

Yeah, we're at transition accelerator.ca. And you can go there and find our contact info. Also on social media, Twitter, LinkedIn, happy to connect with folks. And, yeah, really appreciate that opportunity to be here today, Dan.

Dan Seguin  53:43

Cool. Okay. Thanks. Now, again, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Moe Kibera  53:50

Yeah, for sure. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.

Dan Seguin  53:52

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests, or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

Canadians lost $530M to scams in 2022, per the Canadian Anti-Fraud Centre. To take advantage of unsuspecting consumers, some fraudsters target the energy industry. In thinkenergy episode 104, Jared Lawrence, Founder & Executive Committee Chair of Utilities United Against Scams, discusses how to protect yourself from scams and what to do if you’ve been duped. Jared is also the Vice President of Revenue Services & Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the U.S.A. 

Related links

• Utilities United Against Scams: https://www.utilitiesunited.org/ 
• Duke Energy: energy.com/home">https://www.duke-energy.com/home 
• Jared Lawrence, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredalawrence/

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey everyone, welcome back. Chances are you've either been a victim of a scam, or you know someone who has. According to the Canadian Anti Fraud Centre, there were more than 90,000 reports of fraud in 2022. This resulted in $530 million lost to scams in Canada last year alone. Of that 530 million, only 2.4 was recovered. That's how successful these criminals are. The most common method fraudsters are using to scam Canadians email and telemarketing. It may or may not be surprising, but the energy industry is no stranger to the world of scam artists looking to make a quick money from unsuspecting energy customers. And we've seen an increase in their efforts to call, text, email and even show up in person at a customer's home and place of business to intimidate and threaten. Since the pandemic began in 2020, the Canadian RCMP have seen a significant increase in fraudulent activity with approximately 70% done through cyber attacks. And as we've seen firsthand in the energy industry, fraudsters are becoming more and more sophisticated, evolving with the times. Yep. According to a recent survey by Chartered Professional accountants, Canada 62% of Canadians are actively taking steps to protect themselves from scammers. But is it enough? So here's today's big question. How can we better protect ourselves from scams? And what are your options if you've been scammed by fraudster joining me on today's show is Jared Lorenz, Vice President of Revenue Services and Metering at Duke Energy, one of the largest electric power holding companies in the US. Duke Energy provides electricity to 7.7 million customers in Florida, the Carolinas and part of the Midwest. Jared is also the founder and Executive Committee Chair of an organization known as utility united against scams. Jared, welcome to the show. Now, scams are such a big problem in our industry that there's a utility scam Awareness Day and a National Scam Awareness Week. That's how big problems gotten. What can you tell us about the utility united against scams and your vision when you started it?

Jared Lawrence  03:28

That's an excellent question. And there's actually a Hydro Ottawa connection that I will get to in a second Dan. Really, utilities unite against scam started as a result of an internal investigation at my company. We were hosting our CEO, actually in our call center where both our customer care agents as well as the back office employees who report to me we're having a Q&A session with our CEO. And one of the Customer Care Specialists raised her hand and said, Miss Good, I'm really concerned. We have a lot of customers calling up about scammers, and they're convinced that these scammers actually have their information. What are we doing about this? And this was back in 2015. So, this was in the context of a number of high profile breaches with major retailers that were in the media. And so this was something we were definitely heightened, had a heightened sensitivity to. And she actually looked at me, as as one of the two leaders in the room and said, Yes, Jared, what are we doing about that? I said, Well, we're not doing anything right now. But we're going to start tomorrow. And so we actually commissioned a SWAT team internally to make sure that there were no data breaches, no breaches with our vendors, no inside, you know, bad actors who were sharing information with scammers, and it became apparent very quickly, that these scammers did not actually have customer information. They were just brilliant social engineers and in all of our net, our information networks were completely secure. So we got to the end of that effort. It took about, you know, three weeks to do that intensive investigation. And then I said to the team, well, now what? We're not going to leave these folks, you know, our customers out there to fend for themselves against these criminals. What did we learn from this? And what can we do about it? And it became apparent to me pretty quickly that this is a problem of international scale, but each utility was attacking it as an individual entity. And we would have so much more presence, so much more of a voice in the public policy space, if we joined together as the influential industry that serves the public, and use our cloud to basically push for change and better protect our customers. So that's not the concept of utilities, but scams were born. I made the pitch to a number of attendees at CS Week. And so far, you know, many folks in the utility industry are aware of CS Week, it is the Customer Service focused Conference for utility professionals. This was back in the spring of 2016, then, and immediately, the cars essentially sold themselves. There were 25 utility organizations represented in the room and every single one of them came up to me afterwards, and expressed interest in becoming part of this vision of this industry effort. But it was actually an A breakfast conversation later on during the conference with David McKendree, who's retired from Hydro Ottawa, who's become a friend of mine through our board work on CS Week. And he pulled me aside he said, Jared, I've been thinking a lot about your utilities united against scams effort. And I suggest maybe you consider a national campaign. And, and the fact that utilities across North America are coming together, to, to work together for this specific event, this specific campaign that's newsworthy in and of itself. And I think, Jared, that if you take that approach, you will be able to attract so much more interest in this cause, and, frankly, so much more membership and he was spot on. I thought it was a fantastic suggestion. We made that kind of the centerpiece of our first few months of existence back in 2016, culminating with our National Utility Scam Awareness Day and National Utility Scam Awareness Week in November of 2016. The US House of Representatives, of course, recognized us with a declaration of national utility scam Awareness Day. And we went from 25 utility organizations that expressed interest in that first conference to 89 members by the time we got to that campaign in November, and since then, we've grown to where we are today at exactly 150 across the US and Canada. So it's grown beyond what I honestly could have expected or hoped for, but certainly not beyond that vision of the industry coming together to protect our customers against us, against this very important surge.

Dan Seguin  08:01

Okay, Jared, what types of scams are appearing most often? Can you maybe provide some real life examples? And has the global pandemic altered scam activity? And its frequency?

Jared Lawrence  08:18

Excellent question. And so at the core, the scam that was the main focus of utilities back in 2015, when I started our investigation to Duke Energy and, and it remains today. It's that classic disconnection threat scam. So a customer gets a call out of the blue from somebody purporting to be a representative of the utility. And they state that due to some sort of problem with the account or some sort of problem with a payment being returned by a bank or some, you know, some fabricated excuse like that. The customer's account is now overdue, and there is a disconnection technician in route to turn off the customer's power. Usually it's power. Sometimes it's other utilities, but it's almost always powered within the next 30 to 45 minutes. And so the customer needs to act. They need to purchase a prepaid card and call the scammers back with that information within the next 30 to 45 minutes to prevent this connection. That was their bread and butter back in 2015. It's still their bread and butter today. What's interesting is that we've seen little variations in scammers. They are attuned to what's happening in their market, so to speak, and how utilities and law enforcement and others are reacting to their tactics. And so they've tried certain things. So for example, one of the things that we saw at Duke Energy was that when our smart meters were being deployed in each of our territories and in our six electric states. The scammers at various times would attempt to kind of change the tactic and focus on a meter deposit that the customer had failed to pay something that wouldn't typically show up on a bill and that kind of thing. Kind of trying to capitalize on that, on the headlines associated with utility. And with utility at that particular time, those didn't work very well. So we tend to see the attempt to collect that meter deposit, that scam fell off pretty quickly. We've seen the scammers attempt, text and email sporadically; those don't seem to work very well either, because they don't have the same level of immediacy that a phone call has. So those tend to flare up at times and then die out on their own. We've seen the scammers explore different payment channels. So we've had some customers report that the scammers have asked them to pay in Bitcoin, which, of course is absurd, because I don't know about. But Duke Energy certainly does not accept Bitcoin. We've seen them request Zell transfers, which are actually traceable. So that would work very well. For the banks. We've seen several skimmers recently try and use a cash app. But their bread and butter has historically been prepaid cards and you know, one or two prepaid cards in particular brands of which I won't mention on this podcast. But there are one or two that stand out above all the rest that are particularly susceptible to fraud. Oh, I'm sorry. Then you also asked me about the global pandemic, if you address that. So there was a fascinating cycle that we observed during 2020. So our utility, and utility is all across the world, probably we're announcing suspensions of the credit collections policies and suspensions of disconnections. We saw the scammers initially attempting to kind of plow through that and and continue to attempt their disconnection scams. But we just saw customers weren't falling for it. Customers were completely attuned to the fact that you had disconnected and suspended their disconnection practices. And so the scammers that after attempting for a little while, the volume really started to taper off. But immediately when we started talking about a reinstitution of some of our credit Collections Practices, even though we were working with customers still letting customers know that they were going to have to get onto a payment arrangement. In order to avoid this connection toward the end of the year, the scammers were clearly paying attention to the meeting around us and other utilities. And immediately they started ramping up as if they had gotten behind on their annual revenue goals. And they felt that they needed to ramp back up their activities. And so it turned out that 2020 as a whole ended up being one of the highest volume years in terms of scan since we created our database through energy. And where there were over 20,000 scan reports of the year the vast majority of them happened in late summer, throughout the remainder of the year when scan was new that we had started to in modified form reinstate some of our credit collections policies.

Dan Seguin  13:18

Okay, thanks, Jared. Are there any specific population groups who are frequently targeted? How can we as a community offer better support to these groups? What's the best line of defense?

Jared Lawrence  13:32

So, you know, again, as with everything that I've seen, in the six years that I've been heavily engaged in this topic, they tend to go in cycles. And so in the beginning, it seemed to be random, the victims, the target seemed to be random. And so since it was random, there was you know, statistically, the vast majority of utility customers are residential. And so there was a heavy focus on residential customers. What we started to see is obviously, I've never spoken with a scammer to validate this. But what we started to see was that the scammer started to use tools, probably online maps, you know, simple tools like Google Maps, etc. To determine what were the businesses in a particular area and How close were they to some of the retail outlets sold the prepaid cards that they like to use? And the reason they were focusing on businesses is if they caught up with a residential customer, and they and they would say to the residential customer, you're behind on your bill. Yeah, that was two months. Well, they really couldn't ask for more than, you know, a couple 100 bucks because a typical residential customer knows that they're your average utility bills, not going to be that much more than 100 bucks unless it's the heat of the summer or the or the depth of winter. But they recognize that they started calling restaurants, veterinary clinics and, and others that are fairly energy intensive that they could ask for 1000s of dollars. And it would work because at the same time they would they would get into a rhythm where they would come All these particular businesses during what they knew to be, for example, a restaurants busiest part of the day during the lunch hour, a veterinarians busiest type of day, right mid afternoon when they might have had dogs and cats under sedation, a dry cleaners, busiest time of the day, right around five o'clock in the, you know, post the rush hour period when people are dropping in to pick up their dry cleaning, things like that. The scammers became very intelligent about, again, the social engineering aspect of focusing on the times when their victims were most vulnerable. What we've seen, what we tend to see and I do think that these scammers are, are paying attention and noticing the impacts of YouTube from utilities united against scams, in that over the course of the last few years, we have forged a partnership with in with an organization called somos, which is the toll free administrator that toll free number administrator for basically all toll free phone lines across North America. And, what started happening was that we were getting there, you know, through this partnership, we were having the scammers when 100 numbers disconnected. And the scammer started to recognize this. And so they have migrated toward more of a robo calling model now, where they call up and they say instead of asking the customer to call back, they say press this number to speak to press one to speak to somebody about your delinquent bill, for example. And because they're using robocalls. Now, it's much more random again, and so we're seeing a shift back toward a higher preponderance of residential customers. Now all along, we have seen particularly with utility scam, that Spanish speaking populations and Spanish speaking businesses in particular have been more vulnerable. And I think there's two reasons for this. The first of which is that in my conversations with law enforcement and my direct conversations with the scammers, because I talk to them a lot when I'm calling up to validate that they're using fraud numbers, I call them up and try to play along and pretend I'm a victim. They tend to be they seem to be originating from Spanish speaking countries, most likely in Latin America, and law enforcement has corroborated that. And sometimes when I call them up, they're actually answering the line in Spanish, meaning that they are targeting Spanish businesses in particular, at that particular time, and they seem to be much more fluent in Spanish than they are in English at times as well. And, and so the reason that we think that this customer group is more vulnerable is because there is a, you know, there's a natural language barrier between the routine communications that they would receive from utility, versus the communications that they're receiving from these scammers. And therefore, that might cut through some of the awkwardness that a native English speaker might pick up on if they were being contacted by somebody who isn't an eight native English speaker, originally versus being a native Spanish speaker. And the second two is that there just seems to be a little bit less of a of a reflex of distrust amongst, amongst Spanish speaking businesses and Spanish speaking community a little bit and a little bit of a greater a greater trust in official communications, or official sounding communications rather than a reflex to immediately distrust something that is that hits them out of the blue. And so we have seen a disproportionate number of Spanish speaking businesses being targeted and showing up on our victims list.

Dan Seguin  18:52

So, in general, Jared, is there anything customers can do to proactively guard themselves and their loved ones? Against scams?

Jared Lawrence  19:03

Great question. So I am a big fan of these anti robocall services such as Nomorobo. It's the one that we use at our house. I'm not a paid spokesman. But I do actually have through the scam work come to know the founder and president of Nomorobo. And so that, and from the car registries that he shared with us, we are seeing that they're doing a good job of blocking a lot of these scam calls that are coming from, they're coming from these criminals. So I recommend that because that'll just reduce the likelihood that householder or businesses that these calls are making it through the searches in the first place. The second thing is really just to know the signs. So you know, the basic signs are that a utility, the first communication you get from a utility about a potential deal delinquent bill or a problem with a payment is not going to be 30 minutes before you're disconnected. And a true utility representative is not going to insist on one particular type of payment, they're not going to make you drive down the street to a local retail outlet, get a specific thing, tell you not to talk to the club clerk and then force you to come back to me that payment quickly. And if you express any doubts at all about the legitimacy of the call, a legitimate utility representative will be more than happy to have you contact the utility directly using the published number, the public contact channels on your actual bill versus what they give you. Whereas a scammer is going to resist all of those because they know what to do when the gig is up. So that's really the key there, you want to reduce your vulnerability or your exposure to scam communications in the first place. And then if they do get through just be highly educated on the signs.

Dan Seguin  21:05

This next one is important. What are some ways to identify a utility scammer over the phone via text message and the scariness of the mall at your door? What are the red flags to look out for the best way to deal with them?

Jared Lawrence  21:26

So again, Dan, I think that the number one thing to keep in mind is that it is very rare that you will get an urgent communication from your utility about a billing problem. That's it with disconnection being imminent. Out of the blue, within the next 45 minutes, that will be the first communication. So a utility scammer typically is somebody who contacts you with a sense of urgency, and there's a lot of pressure built into that communication. They will then resist, they will try and talk you out of seeking independent verification of identity. So whether it's a call or a call that you get, if you say Well Do you mind if I just hang up and call the number back on your official website just to validate this, a scammer will try and talk you out of that they'll say something like the driver is already on his way. Or if it's even worse, if they're at your door. And and you open the door and you are not expecting him, a utility representative will be more than happy to allow you to take the time to call the Customer Care Center to validate their legitimacy. Whereas a criminal will try and convince you that something is very urgent and you don't have the time to do so. Those are some of the some of the most obvious signs of a criminal who's trying to pressure you into taking action before you have time to think and get the facts straight. You know, again. The other thing to keep in mind, too, is and we've seen that we saw this from the very beginning when going back to that first customer care ever raised that concern because she felt that she was relaying the customers felt that their that their information had been compromised when in fact it wasn't just because a a somebody posing as utility rep seems to have your info, it does not make them legitimate. Unfortunately, most information about us as individuals, as consumers is available out there on the web. It's just one of the sad facts about modern life. Additionally, though, these scammers are brilliant social engineers, and they're very good at making you think that they have legitimate information. So even if a scammer calls up and they quote something that sounds like your legitimate balance, don't trust them. In fact, one of the early cases that we research that first month when we when we deployed that SWAT team I was talking about that really convinced me of the nature of this problem was we had one particular customer who had reported that the scammer had their balance their actual balance. And we looked at the account. And sure enough, the information that the customer had reported to us did align with what their most recent bill was. So we talked to the customer and we said well tell us how the conversation went. And they started to think about it. And what they finally recalled was that the scammer called them up and said there was a problem with your last payment. Your payment did not go through and the victim then said well wait a minute. Let me go. I happen to be on my online banking system right now. Let me look right here. And I see my payment for $271.30 or whatever it was. It went through on October 4 or whatever it was. And then the scammer says no, I see your payment for $271.30 and it actually got rejected the next day, October 5 by your bank. And so now the person who was caught off guard by this call in the first place is thinking, Oh, this person must be legitimate because he has a system right there and my payment is in it. And he knows all about my transaction. Well, now, you told them, they tricked you into giving them that information. And so that's the other key is to never ever volunteer account information or personal information. If somebody calls you up out of the blue, and they are legitimate, they will understand if you don't want to volunteer information, they will invite you the opportunity to call back their official customer Carolina. But if somebody calls you out of the blue and starts asking for some information about you, that is another clear sign that that scam is likely you're likely the victim of a scam.

Dan Seguin  25:48

Now, let's say I'm a customer who fell victim to a scam losing money and possibly personal information on the process. What are my options? Is there anyone or anywhere specific that customers can turn to for help?

Jared Lawrence  26:05

Well, so there's some good news, but a lot of not good news to share on that front down. So the first thing I would recommend is if you have fallen victim, and if you have made a payment using any sort of prepaid card or electronic payment channel, immediately call the fraud line associated with the payment method that you use and do it quickly. The reason is that, and I'm speaking about the prepaid cards in particular, the way these scammers work is that they're targeting multiple victims, you know, across the country at any given time across the continent at any one time. And what they do is they call you up, they trick you into making that payment. And, basically in doing that they transfer your money from the card number you provide to a destination card that they're using to collect, and I'll use in quotes launder the funds. And then every few minutes, they sweep the money off of those cards. So there's typically a small window, where if the scammers have not liquidated those funds into the ether, that if you happen to call back, you might be able to get your money back. But you've got to move quickly because a lot of these payment channels that they use are attractive to scammers, particularly because they're non reversible. And, and so your timing has to be very quick and very spot on with those. So that's the first thing to do. The second thing to do, is to file a police report. Now, sadly, because these criminals are typically perpetrating their crimes from offshore, they are not going to be reachable with local law enforcement. But nonetheless, it's important that you follow the police report so that it enters the law enforcement database that helps the various folks in law enforcement at the national level who are trying to create, you know, enough of a body of evidence to investigate these cases and investigate these syndicates that are running these scams. And, and also to mention that, for example, in the United Way to one one service here in North Carolina, and there are other organizations, they actually have resources that are available for victims of cybercrime and other fraud. So I would reach out to your local community assistance agency, if you have suffered any financial hardship as a result of being targeted to determine what resources they have. I'm not aware of any that can restore the funds that you've lost, but they can maybe help you cope with any financial hardship that you're suffering in the near term as a result of being targeted. And then finally, you know, report the attempt to your utility because the utility united against scams. We use this information to refine our strategies. We use this information for our engagement with our telecom partners, our engagement with law enforcement and government officials to support law enforcement efforts and to try and better shape public policy to protect customers against these types of scams.

Dan Seguin  29:16

Now, maybe we could look at prevention. What our utility companies and police force are doing to help deter and fight against scammers. Can you tell us any success stories of scammers being deterred or better yet caught?

Jared Lawrence  29:36

Okay, well, I can actually share with you a couple of instances. These weren't directly related to the utility imposter scam. But the larger using the Canadian revenue associations that would CRA stands for yes. So larger CRA scams we celebrated when we read articles back in the fall of 2018, and again in 2019, where the Royal Canadian Mounted Police executed successful stings of, of scam call centers, basically running those texts, those tax scams against Canadian citizens. And in those time frames. In one case, I believe they arrested 32 Indian nationals who were executing these scams out of a fraudulent call center. And another one, it was 28. criminals who were apprehended in those busts. And really the key there is again, you know, just countless reports of victims, each one a small victim of crime just building up to this very large case, there was also a recent case, in the US with the Internal Revenue Service scam, where I believe that the individual was arrested back into that I can't remember 2017 or 2018, but he was just convicted back in November of 2020, the ringleader, again another Indian call center operation that was running this IRS scam. And the ringleader there was sentenced to 20 years in prison and fined $9 million. So there are there are people in law enforcement at the national level, both in the Canada and the US, who are who are paying attention and are specifically focusing on these, you know, very lucrative scans these very lucrative criminal operations and building cases and seeking international partnerships to, to to bust these operations. I think that those two are an example of, of operations that were that were claiming hundreds of millions, if not more, dollars in ill gotten gains. And so they're probably slightly bigger fish in these utility scans. And I think these utility scammers are probably collecting millions of dollars a year but not hundreds of millions of dollars, which is why these other tax related scams are gaining or gaining more attention.

Dan Seguin  32:15

Jared, tell me what is at the heart or lack thereof of a scammer's intention? What are some behaviors that are evidence of this?

Jared Lawrence  32:26

So, you know, one of the things that we have spent a lot of time understanding is what is this is the utility imposter scammers Mo, are they spending a lot of time researching their victims to create a really, you know, compelling story that increases their hit rate, or are they really they're going for high volume, low yield, but making their money off of volume. And it's really the latter. And so what I noticed very quickly, in the various countless times that I've called these fraud numbers to validate their phone numbers to get them shut down, frankly, is that the scammer has very quickly tried to ascertain whether you are a likely victim. So if you want to talk with them about anything about address change, sometimes I make up that I'm calling about an outage. They will immediately try and turn it into a conversation about an outstanding debt that is supposedly going to trigger a disconnection. And if you don't, the signal is sort of gullible toward it at that particular time, they're going to end the call really quickly. They'll try and do it in a way that makes it seem polite enough that you'll still walk away from that thinking that it was legitimate utility interaction. But in reality, once you step back, you realize they didn't give me any customer service at all. They were just trying to figure out if I was, if I was unlikely to be marked for them or not. That's the biggest one. The second biggest one is that, you know, we see our customer care agents go through countless hours of training in order to maintain professionalism, and how to be attentive to customers to listen to their needs. The scammers, they get frustrated really quickly and if you attempt to call them out, they will very quickly turn on you and say some things that are very rude, things that can't even be repeated on a podcast. So that is another obvious giveaway is that if the person you're talking to starts to become rude or aggressive, or exerts pressure in any way, they're not utility representatives, okay?

Dan Seguin  34:40

Now, in contrast, tell us what's at the heart of any utility as they engage with customers. How can customers use these contrasting intentions as a legitimate test?

Jared Lawrence  34:53

So recognizing that these scammers might listen to this podcast I'm always a little bit careful to give away all The strategies I use to validate that when I'm calling them up that they're in the, in these cameras, however, the obvious signs of a of a, of a trained utility rep are number one, they're going to be attentive to your needs. Number two, they are not going to try and pressure you into anything. Because our goal is to make sure that you are a happy customer that you're getting the service that you need. And if you happen to be having facing financial hardship or difficulty paying, we're not going to threaten you with this connection, we're going to offer up payment arrangements, ways to structure your utility debt so that you can maintain service with us, the last thing that a utility professional is to do is to see your account, be disconnected for non payment, our goal is to try and work with you as much as we can, to keep you engaged and to work within your means with different payment arrangements and things like that. So. So if the person on the line is not really working with you, then that is a and they had called you first. And that is, you know, a pretty obvious sign right there that they're not a legitimate utility representative. Secondly, also, as I mentioned before, a scammer is not going to want to spend any time talking with you about anything other than you're making a payment to them quickly. So if you have questions about say value added products and services, or if you, you know, are having service, you had a service disruption due to a storm or something like that. You can always ask a question about that and see how they handle it. And if they handle it with knowledge, and they actually are able to show a willingness to take the time to understand your issue, then that's a more than likely legitimate utility. Utility representative. If, however, they constantly bring it back to your fictitious outstanding debt, then you know, you're dealing with a scammer.

Dan Seguin  36:53

Finally, Jared, what does success look like for utilities united against scams? What is your hope for the next 5-10 years?

Jared Lawrence  37:05

So, you know, I read my original instead of this dad kind of changes I thought about a little bit more, especially as we have our five year anniversary of Utah united against stamps coming up, but just in just next week, actually. And, you know, I was thinking the knee jerk reaction would be to say, well, I'd like, I'd like us to basically put these scammers out of business so that we don't, so we can disband so that there's no need for utilities united against stamps. I think that that is a you know, a little bit too rosy eyed. Of course, I think that I do like to make these utility imposter scams go away. And then just maintain kind of a, you know, maintain the collaborative, but maintain it in such a way where we're just touching base sharing information about anything that might be looking suspicious in our markets, and making sure that we are keeping scam activity at a minimum and keeping law enforcement and policymakers fully engaged so that scams don't flare back up to the problem that they are right now. So my goal really is to achieve that combination of policy solutions, as well as share operational tactics with partners in telecom and the prepaid card space and the other financial mechanism that the scammers use to shut down the loopholes so that this utility imposter scam goes away. And then utilities, unite against scams is an organization that just means periodically to keep tabs on the market and make sure that things aren't flaring up again.

Dan Seguin  38:44

Jared, this is it. Are you ready to close this off with some rapid fire questions?

Jared Lawrence  38:52

Sure. Hit me Dan.

Dan Seguin  38:53

Okay, let's start with the first one. What is your favorite word?

Jared Lawrence  38:58

My favorite word this year is 'Yes." It's a nice say that is because we accomplished so many things on the fly, responding to the pandemic, and the important, things that we as utilities had to do to help take care of our communities last year, that previously the answer would have been either No, or it's going to take us a long time to figure that out. So I feel like I and the rest of the industry have been opened up to the power of possibility. And so this is the year of answering all those possibilities with 'Yes.'

Dan Seguin  39:35

Now tell me Jared, what is one thing you can't live without?

Jared Lawrence  39:40

My morning workout!

Dan Seguin  39:42

Okay, moving on. What habit or hobby have you picked up during shelter in place?

Jared Lawrence  39:49

Started making mead. I find it delicious. I'm not sure that those of my family or my wife have the same things.

Dan Seguin  40:01

If you could have one superpower, Jared, what would it be?

Jared Lawrence  40:07

The ability to sleep through the night without waking up for a variety of reasons.

Dan Seguin  40:11

Okay, if you could turn back time and talk to your 18 year old self, what would you tell them?

Jared Lawrence  40:18

I would tell them not to be so shy I was, I was fairly shy. In my pre professional life, and, and even the early years of being in the professional world, and I've come to learn that you miss out on a lot by being shy.

Dan Seguin  40:34

And lastly, what do you currently find interesting in your sector?

Jared Lawrence  40:41

So there are so many interesting things going on. But I think what is most interesting to me, and the reason why I'm excited to be in this industry for at least another 15 years before I'm ready to retire, is that societies have made it one of their central goals to achieve carbon neutrality. And utilities are at the center of that not only in terms of hitting our goals within our companies, but being the ones best positioned to offer solutions to help major industries that are our customers help achieve their carbon neutral goals. And so I think the amount of opportunity and the number of interesting challenges that we face in the utility industry on that front is very exciting to me, and one of the reasons why I'm thrilled to continue to be a utility leader.

Dan Seguin  41:30

Again, thank you for joining us today. I hope you had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Jared Lawrence  41:35

I did. This was fantastic. Dan, I hope as you can tell I am really passionate about fighting scammers fighting criminals to take advantage of utility customers and so I welcome any opportunity to talk about this topic.

Dan Seguin  41:48

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening! And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

When a natural disaster strikes, your electricity is at risk. And Canada is no stranger to extreme weather. During these large-scale emergencies, a coordinated effort is needed to aid Canadians – and millions around the globe. Enter the Canadian Red Cross, a leader in providing disaster relief at home and aboard. In episode 103 of thinkenergy, we chat with Guy Lepage, a Disaster Management Volunteer with the organization, to learn more about his role and what it's like having ‘boots on the ground’ during a disaster.

Related links

• The Canadian Red Cross: https://www.redcross.ca/how-we-help/emergencies-and-disasters-in-canada 
• Guy Lepage, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/guy-lepage-8568289/ 
• Hydro Ottawa safety resources: https://hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is think energy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Canada has experienced a number of natural disasters in the last number of years in 2022. There was a devastating May long weekend Derecho in Ontario, forest fires and floods in British Columbia. And of course, Hurricane Fiona on the East Coast, to name just a few. For those of us in the energy sector, we know that when disaster strikes, a stable supply of electricity is jeopardized. Electricity represents safety, shelter, sanitation, warmth, and clean water. As extreme weather and other large scale events occur around the world. A coordinated global reach is needed to provide aid to millions. There is one leading organization in particular that comes to mind when you think of disaster relief with the skills, resources and people to mobilize in almost any region of this world. I'm talking about the International Red Cross. When it was created back in 1863, the Red Cross the objective was to protect and assist victims of armed conflict. Of course, their work has expanded to many types of crises, including disasters caused by extreme weather events. In total, the Red Cross has a network of more than 80 million people across the world that they can draw on to help in times of need, many right here at home. So here's today's big question. As leaders in emergency preparedness, response and execution, what is it like to be a Canadian Red Cross volunteer with boots on the ground during a disaster. Our guest on the show today is Guy Lepage, a disaster management volunteer with the Canadian Red Cross. Gi has been deployed to some of the world's biggest disasters and relief operations here in Canada and overseas. No matter the emergency, big or small. The Red Cross stands ready to help people before, during and after a disaster. As a member of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, the Canadian Red Cross is dedicated to helping people and communities in Canada and around the world in times of need, and supporting them in strengthening their resilience. Guy. Welcome to the show.

Guy Lepage  03:16

Thanks for having me.

Dan Seguin  03:17

Guy, perhaps you can start by telling us how long you've been with the Canadian Red Cross. And what inspired you to get involved?

Guy Lepage  03:27

You'll recall back in 2005, 17 years ago, Hurricane Katrina hit the Deep South and of course, that made headlines around the world and then was working for the provincial government at the time and the premier at the time. Dalton McGuinty was contacted by the Canadian Red Cross asking him to send 100 members of the Ontario Public Service to help the American Red Cross. So I put my hand up as a former journalist to help as a communications or a public affairs officer. And I went to the deep south for three weeks as a public affairs officer and I got to see up close what the Red Cross does, whether it's American Canadian, choose your country, we all work under the same guidelines and rules. So you know, I saw how it was done. And so I came home and I said, Okay, I've been to the Deep South, what can I do in my own backyard. And that's when I started thinking about all the courses and the training I should have had before we're going to the Deep South. And it was just an amazing experience and the start of my Red Cross career. Now I can tell you that before I worked for the province, I worked as a journalist in Ottawa for the Ottawa Citizen and CJ wait gender Max Keeping for the your listeners who remember Max, and they covered disasters from house fires to train derailments to, you know, high winds, tornadoes, and there was one case in Gatineau. Across the river, there was cottage country, where high winds came through and pushed a canoe literally through the walls of a cottage. And it was something out of a movie and I said wow, that's amazing. So when I saw that kind of devastation in person in the Deep South. That's, that's okay. This is where I want to be. And giving my time my efforts as a volunteer is for people who go through this kind of disaster.

Dan Seguin  05:13

Okay. Now, what are some of the roles you've had with the organization?

Guy Lepage  05:20

I guess the main role has been as a personal disaster assistance team member, and I will PDA for short, that's when we respond to house fires. So you know, God forbid you and your family, there's a fire at your home at two o'clock in the morning, two volunteers will show up at your home and make sure you've got a place this day and give you gift cards. So you can buy food and clothing if need be. So I've done that the entire time, my 17 years with the Red Cross. I've also been a site manager, when there is a disaster. For example, in the Ottawa area after the tornadoes a few years ago, there were different shelters set up information centers. So someone had to run those centers to make sure they were properly run and offered the services that were needed. So I've been a site manager. And basically, it's other duties as assigned. The Red Cross is very good at training us to do all kinds of things in emergency management.

Dan Seguin  06:16

Okay, I've got a follow up question here. Now, Curiosity is getting the best of me. Talk to me about the role that was the most difficult. And what was the most memorable?

guy  06:30

Wow, that's kind of like asking a parent which is their favorite child. I mean, I've been on 18 deployments in Canada, the US, Haiti and in Europe. So it's really difficult to choose. But I'll give you an example. This past summer, I was in Budapest, Hungary working with the International Federation of the Red Cross. On the Ukraine relief operation, we all know what's happening overseas. And my role was a public affairs officer or media relations officer to tell people in the media what was going on, from a red cross point of view. And we've held a news conference. And we told people inflation is making life difficult. But more importantly, winter is coming. Even though this was August, in the middle of a heatwave, winter is coming. And it's going to be a major issue. And now, if you look at the stories out of Ukraine, that is a major issue because of hydro shortages, natural gas shortages, and so on. So that's a memorable one because as a volunteer, I was part of a major relief operation, you know, who would have thought there'd be that kind of conflict anywhere in the world in this day and age, closer to home. A couple of years ago, there was a COVID lock down into Szechwan First Nation in northern Ontario, a fly in community. So there was a COVID outbreak, the entire community was locked down. So even the local store where they buy their groceries was locked down. So I was up there, the team of 12, where groceries, supplies were flown in, they were taken to the local hockey arena, where we put together boxes of essentials like milk, butter, bread, canned goods, dry goods, cereals, and so on. And we assembled boxes of these goods, and they were delivered, the boxes were delivered by the military, they were the rangers to every household in the community. So people could feed themselves. I mean, talk about basic, bare basic service that we all need. So that was a challenge because we were in the middle of a cult COVID lockdown community. So we had to really, really respect the rules of social distancing, sanitizing wearing a mask, we were goggles, we weren't gloves. And we stayed in a church because there was no hotel infrastructure, and we had to stay in a church. We slept in, and top tents on the floor of the church. And whenever that was the only time I could be without wearing a mask. And as soon as you step out of your tent, you have to wear a mask just because we have to protect ourselves. So that's memorable. But I guess the most memorable cases for me then, is when I show up at two o'clock in the morning, and I'm dealing with a family or an individual who's just been burnt out of their home, their apartment, and they've lost everything that they own. And they just have no idea how they're going to cope with this. Because first responders after firefighters, we're the next people they see wearing the red cross vest, and I'm there to tell them, are you okay? We're going to get you a place to live, a safe place to stay. We're going to give you gift cards for clothing, gift cards for food to help you get back on your feet. And people are so thankful. And I tell you the hugs. And I know it sounds strange to say this in a COVID environment. But the hugs I've received over the years from people who are so, so grateful. It makes it all worthwhile. Whether it's getting up at two o'clock in the morning or responding at two o'clock in the afternoon. People are so appreciative, so those are the big memories I take away from this.

Dan Seguin  10:05

Okay. I read that you've assisted in some big operations all over the world. Can you tell us what some of those were, and perhaps your biggest takeaway from those experiences?

Guy Lepage  10:21

I've been very fortunate then and that I've responded to emergencies across Canada. I've been to three hurricanes in the US, Hurricane Sandy in New York, Hurricane Michael in Florida. And Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana. Well, the Deep South. I went to Haiti in 2010. And as I mentioned, I went to Europe this past summer. So my biggest takeaway is the resilience of people who are affected by a disaster. Um, yes, the initial shock is overwhelming. I mean, no one ever expects to lose their home to a hurricane or a forest fire or an earthquake or whatever. No one sits around the kitchen table and says, Hey, what will we do if we lose our home. So we arrived, wearing the red cross vest to work with local, other responders and governments and we came to the rescue to help them rebuild their lives. So the resilience of people when they get over the shock, they are so appreciative of the work that we are offering the relief we're offering, rather, and they start immediately to rebuild their lives, where am I and my family going to stay? How we're going to feed ourselves and clothe ourselves and get back to normal. So that is, that is the one constant that I can share with you. And the other is, of course, how they are so appreciative. So it doesn't matter where you're from, it is where it happens. They are so happy that the Red Cross and other responders are there to help.

Dan Seguin  11:51

Okay, deep. I'm probably going to embarrass you just a little bit. In November 2021, you received the Order of the Red Cross, considered the Canadian Red Cross highest award, it recognizes extraordinary people who have provided outstanding services at home and abroad. Can you tell us what your service and that honor has meant to you?

Guy Lepage  12:21

Other than my wedding day, and the birth of my children, it's the highest honor of my life, because to be recognized, to do something that I enjoy, and something that I get a whole lot more out of, than what I put in, was just a complete shock. It was emotional, it was overwhelming. I mean, I wear my emotions on my sleeve. So I don't mind telling you that I cried, it was so overwhelming. And, you know, most, I'd say all volunteers with the Red Cross and even outside of the organization, don't do this for the accolades. We do it because we like to volunteer, we like to help people in a time of crisis. And in my case, because I've been doing this for 17 years, I enjoy it so much, I will keep doing it as long as I can. And as I've just mentioned, I get a whole lot more out of it than what I put in. Let me put that into context. Yes, it's a lot of hard work, I deploy for two weeks, three weeks a month, I'm away from my family, my friends, I'm out of my comfort zone, long, stressful days. But in return, I work with other like minded volunteers from around the world. I learned from them, I help people in a time of need. And I tell the new volunteers that I train in my backyard, that you will get warm and fuzzies when you help people. Now by that, you know, we've all helped people in a time in our lives. And if you help someone move a friend of yours, having a bad day and try to console them either on the phone or in person, you know, you feel good about yourself, because you've helped someone you've done something for someone else, you know, because you want to not because you have to or you get paid or anything like that. So I've had the opportunity to do that on a bigger scale. So I've had a ton of warm and fuzzies in my career. All this to say that the Order of the Red Cross was just unexpected, but an incredible, incredible honor. Very good. Very good.

Dan Seguin  14:20

I think it's fair to say that the Red Cross is synonymous with disaster relief. For those that don't know, can you highlight how the Canadian Red Cross gets activated in communities?

Guy Lepage  14:33

That's a very good question. Because every time I go out, regardless of if it's a local fire or something big, you know, people say wow, you know, how do you guys do it? We didn't call or you know, we didn't know you guys did this. Most people need to know that we don't just show up on our own. We work with the local municipality, the local government, provincial federal, depending on where the disaster is. We are invited to assist. You may already know that in Ontario, most municipalities by law have to have an emergency management plan in place, which means when there is a need for a shelter, they have designated a school or a community center or even a church as to where the Red Cross and other organizations can do their thing. So we work with all levels of government and local municipalities, other first responders just to deliver the emergency aid that's needed at the time. Now, this could be an emergency lodging shelter, as I said, in a community center, for example, we could set up a reception center where people can get information, they can get gift cards, personal services, or reunite with their families. We offer a wide variety of services. But again, I want to stress that we are invited by the local municipality or level of government that needs assistance, and then we come to the rescue.

Dan Seguin  15:55

Okay. In the past six years alone, Ottawa has had 100 year floods, tornadoes, a Derecho, heat waves, and multiple wind and ice storms. A lot of these events result in lengthy power outages. I know the Canadian Red Cross has been involved with boots on the ground for some of our emergencies here in the nation's capital. What does a typical operation look like?

Guy Lepage  16:26

Every disaster is different. So the first thing that we do is first boots on the ground, work with local governments to assess how bad is the damage caused by, as you mentioned, ice storm, a windstorm, heat waves, tornadoes, and so on. And then we call in the volunteers, the staff, you know, the personnel and the supplies needed to meet the demand. That is the first thing because if you don't know how bad things are, you can't respond appropriately. Now, once we determine what's needed, then we bring in the troops and we bring in the gear and we bring in the gift cards that we need to meet the demand. For example, after the tornado in Ottawa, back in 2018, I was deployed to Gatineau to work at one of the shelters that was set up there where people were staying, and we're also showing up to be assessed for gift cards and so on. So by the time I arrived, the people who had done the advance work knew how many people were needed to work at the shelter. I was one of the site managers, and how many volunteers were needed to meet the demand at the time. So that is the key. How does the operation work? We assess then we bring in what's the personnel and the supplies that are needed to meet the demand.

17:44

Okay. Now, wondering if you could share with our listeners, what are some of the ways the Red Cross team helps residents during a crisis?

Guy Lepage  17:55

That's a very good question. We help in a number of ways. The first one would be an emergency shelter, if people have been burned out of their homes, or they just can't go home for whatever reason. And they don't have the funds to go to hotels or they're no hotels available. or for whatever reason, they just have nowhere else to go, they can come to the shelter which can be in a school in a church and a community center. We will set up cots with Red Cross blankets, so people have a place to stay. We set them up to have an area for single men, an area for single women, an area for families, an area for families with family members who need assistance, you know, wheelchairs, that kind of thing. We also set up reception centers where people can show up to get information, they can show up to get gift cards, or just have a shoulder to cry on. We have people who are trained to deal with the psychological impact that disasters have on people. And I can tell you that is as important as giving people a place to stay and gift cards to eat food and clothing. Because it is such a shock. And some people have difficulty dealing with it and they need specialized care. We will distribute funds through gift cards, as I mentioned, and will provide emergency items. For example, hygiene kits, you know, you've lost everything in your home, you don't have your toothpaste, your toothbrush, you don't have your shampoo, you don't have the basics of life that we all come to depend on. We will supply those kinds of things as well. So we are there to help people get back on their feet. And we do the best we can and I think we do a pretty good job. We're always learning to, you know, to get better. But I believe having been around as long as I have. Most of the time things work really, really well.

Dan Seguin  19:43

Now Guy, I read each year the Canadian Red Cross helps more than 100,000 people in Canada. How do people volunteer? What kind of roles are there? And is there a minimum time commitment

Guy Lepage  19:59

There are several ways for people to get involved. The first is emergency management, which is what we've been talking about, and the area I focus on. That's to help people impacted by small or large disasters and emergencies. Now, we're always also looking for Meals on Wheels, delivery drivers, you know, people I think, are familiar with Meals on Wheels. You deliver, you know, hot, nutritious meals to members of the community who are unable to prepare their own food. And, you know, this allows them to stay in their homes for a longer period of time, we have a program called friendly calls, this is where trained Red Cross volunteers or staff members, they talk with adults who are feeling isolated or lonely, for some reason, you know, they've got limited social or family connections, and you know, who feel that they could benefit from having a more social interaction. I mean, during the pandemic, you know, there are a lot of people who were on their own, they couldn't go visit their families. And if you're living by yourself, and you've got no one to talk to, it can have a very negative impact on your well being. So this friendly calls program, you know, someone will pick up the call and say, Hey, Daniel, how you doing? Let's talk and talk about your family, talk about the weather, talking about whatever, just to have a social connection, so you're not by yourself. And we're also looking for transportation drivers, you know, to get people, elderly or disabled people in the community who are unable to use public transportation or other private means. So there are many ways to get involved in the redcross.ca has a lot of information about that. And every program is different. And as far as your minimum commitment, you know, for example, here in Durham Region, and I'm sure it's the same in the Ottawa area. My disaster management volunteers have to fill out their availability for 32 hours a month, and you say, Wow, that sounds like a lot. No, it's not because you're not going to be out and about doing 32 hours worth of work. You're just available for 32 hours a month. And if there isn't, if there's no fire, or no emergency, you don't do anything. Okay, so every program is different. But I want to make the stress the point, again, Daniel, that you'll feel so good about the amount of time that you donate to the organization, whether it's emergency management or as Meals on Wheels, delivery, driver friendly calls, however you choose to get involved, you will feel so good about donating your time and your expertise, that the four hours, 10 hours, whatever the number of hours you volunteered for, will make you feel so good.

Dan Seguin  22:39

Okay, follow up question here. Are you seeing an increase in the need for volunteers? And if so, why?

Guy Lepage  22:47

There are many reasons why there's an increase in the need for volunteers. You know, we've all talked about climate change, and how that that's increased the number of weather related disasters and you look at British Columbia with the flooding, fall of 2021, the forest fires. Those are just a couple of major incidents in Canada and around the world. When it was in Europe this summer, there were massive forest fires all across Europe with an incredibly hot and dry summer that was happening over there. So the more disasters happen, we need more volunteers to step up and deliver the services that we need to deliver. You know, you look at Manitoba flooding, British Columbia flooding I just mentioned mentioned earlier, every spring, they flood out in that community, and they're evacuated to other communities in northern Ontario, where they're living in hotels, until the water recedes, and then they go home. So I've responded to Timmins Ontario, for example, where I was a site manager, making sure that the tuck shops that we operated in hotels were fully stocked where people could get their deodorant, their diapers, their baby food, whatever, why they lived at the hotel. So we are always looking for new people because things happen. And you know, we've helped 9000 people this year and provided over $300 million in recovery funding across the country. I doubt very much that amount is going to go down in 2023. That's just the reality. One more example I can give you. Hurricane Fiona hit the Maritimes on September 24. I was in Nova Scotia in November. And we were still giving out $500 gift cards to people affected by the storm. Two months later. We've helped in the Maritimes. We've provided 5700 emergency items to people. And we've had 520 people, volunteers and staff respond, you know from across the country. We've had seven 6000 conversations with people who needed to talk to someone about hey, I'm having some real psychological issues here, this is having a major impact on my mental well being. So you know, 45 Oh sorry 45 reception centers were set up across the Maritimes. So that's just with one storm, one disaster. So, you know, we've got to be ready to respond to the next disaster which will happen, of course, with a warning or with a little warning. So that's why we are always looking for new people.

Dan Seguin  25:24

Guy, we usually think of major disasters, but let's talk about personal disasters, I read that 97% of Red Cross responses in the last five years have been for personal disasters, what is the most common personal disaster that Canadians experience?

Guy Lepage  25:47

House fires, it's that simple. For whatever reason, it could be a faulty electrical outlet. A lot of times as people leave stuff on the stove, on attended, it spreads, fire starts and spreads, but they happen in a home. And so people get out with their lives and but nothing else. And that's where we show up. When there's a fire at two o'clock in the morning, there will be two volunteers who will show up. And then they will assist the family to make sure they have lodging they have a place to stay, whether it's a hotel or shelter. And then we will make sure that they have gift cards to buy clothing and to buy food and take care of them for three days. And then we're an emergency service. So after three days, and people have to make their own arrangements, but we are there to make sure that they get a semblance of normalcy back as quickly as possible. And you can't do that if you don't have a place to stay, and a safe place to stay. And you don't have any money. And so that's what we do, we make sure that they get back on their feet. And we will give them a hygiene kit, with toothpaste, toothbrush, deodorant, you know, the essentials of life that we all take for granted. So that's why forest, house fires are the biggest, the biggest sources of disaster in Canada. But if, of course, we are ready to respond to any any kind of disaster and, and, you know, if you live in an apartment building, for example, there might be a fire and another unit. But you might have water damage. I mean, first of all, if there's a fire in the unit, the entire building is evacuated until the firefighters inspect everything and decide who, when and where it's safe to go back in. Now, in many cases, the entire building has to be evacuated and stay empty until major repairs are conducted. And that's where the Red Cross will set up a shelter and a community center and in a school or even the church to take care of people for three days until the authorities deem it's safe to go back into the apartment complex. If it's longer than that, then folks have to make other arrangements.

Guy Lepage  28:00

Okay. Here's a follow up question for you. Sorry about those. Why do house fires occur more often in winter months? And what are the causes,

Guy Lepage  28:13

I'm told by fire officials that it's careless use of pots and pans in the kitchen, you know, leave something unattended, and, and it just causes a fire. But there are a wide variety of reasons. I mean, even though there are fewer smokers in Canadian society, we still get fires caused by careless cigarette use, or kids playing with lighters. I remember one case a few years ago, where there were indeed mum and dad and three kids living in an apartment. And one of the kids got a hold of a lighter and set the drapes on fire. And then of course, it was get out, get out get out. So we responded, they went to some friends, a friend's location too. So we responded to take care of them to arrange for accommodation and food and clothing. And I'm talking to the mom, and she still has soot on her face caused by the fire. And she starts crying and the teardrops are rolling down her cheeks through statements and I'll always remember that image because she was crying a) because it happened but crying that she was so happy that we were there to assist. So it's just one of those images, one of the many memories I have as a responder. But you know, you have to remind people to be very careful with all flammable situations, you know, whether it's a stove, matches cigarettes, just be careful. Just be very, very careful in your home. We don't want to respond at two o'clock in the morning because that means you've gone through a crisis. We will of course, but if you can prevent it that's even better.

Dan Seguin  29:52

This next one is important to many of our listeners. Often we feel powerless during an emergency, particularly when we lose electricity for an extended period of time. What are your recommendations on how people can prepare for emergencies? Is three days still the golden rule to follow?

Guy Lepage  30:15

Yes, three days is the golden rule. You have to plan sit around your kitchen table with your family, or do it yourself and sit and plan for 72 hours three days from now, from the perspective that I can't get out of my house because of a snowstorm, ice storm, fire, whatever the situation, can I stay in my home for 72 hours to carry on a normal lifestyle and a sense that I need to eat, I need to bays, I need medication for people who need medication in my house, you have to plan ahead because if you don't, and you figure, hey, first responders will come and take care of me well, they may not be able to because there'll be taking care of other people with greater needs. So as I said, You need to have enough water. And we're talking three liters per person a day, one liter to drink and cook two liters. To wash and bait. You need to have enough dry goods, you need to have enough food that won't go bad. If you are using an electric can opener, have a manual one. If you depend on the internet and your cell phone, you need to have a crank operated radio or battery operated radio. So you can listen to the local emergency newscast to find out hey, how long am I on my own here, okay. But most importantly, if anyone in your home needs medication, you need to have more than three days worth on hand. I'll give you an example in 2013. Here in the Greater Toronto Area, there was a major ice storm. And major portions of the area were without power for more than three days. We set up a shelter in Ajax where I live. And on Christmas morning, I'm going around the different rooms in a community Senator we've set up where people stayed overnight, there was a elderly gentleman in a wheelchair, who said, you know, last night when I arrived, I only had one pill left for my heart condition, I had to cut it in half. So I've taken half, I'm down to my last half, what am I going to do? So luckily, we had a nurse on hand who was able to find a pharmacy that was open and we replaced his medication. But if this is a scenario that you're in your home with someone who takes life saving medication, heart condition, insulin for diabetes, whatever. And then you can't leave for three days and you run out of medication that could have catastrophic consequences. So always plan ahead to have enough medication, enough pet food and enough water, enough dry goods to survive on your own for three days.

Dan Seguin  32:55

Okay, Guy, are there special considerations for seniors, or other vulnerable groups that we should be aware of?

Guy Lepage  33:05

Medication is the most important one, because I'm generalizing here, of course, but more seniors that need medication than younger adults. But even anybody can need medication. So you've got to ensure you have enough medication on hand at all times. You know, certainly for three days in case you cannot get out for whatever reason. I mean, if a senior is living on his or her own, and runs out of medication, and in a family member who normally takes care of them can't make it, that is a major problem. So you have to plan for every scenario.

Dan Seguin  33:42

Now, besides emergency response, what other programs does the Canadian Red Cross provide that people might not be aware of?

33:51

There are several programs and everything I'm going to share with you is available on the redcross.ca first aid and CPR courses. And you know, we all know we should have this course. I've taken it because I have to. I'm a Red Cross volunteer. But you know, you hear oh, yeah, I'll get to that one day. And then you have a family member who has a heart attack or needs, you know, cuts themselves badly. How do we stop the bleeding? That kind of thing. So having a first aid and CPR course under your belt is highly recommended. Transportation: we offer transportation services for those in need that mentioned you know, elderly and disabled people in the community who can't use public transportation. You know, we'll keep people connected in their community by providing this kind of affordable transportation, whether it's medical appointments, even social gatherings or to go shopping, you know, that's another service that we provide meals on wheels. We need drivers to make sure those meals get to the people that need them. This helps people stay in their homes by making sure they eat a healthy diet. They have a healthy diet. We have a mobile food bank, and this service delivers food to persons who are unable to access food banks due to omitted or temporary disabilities, the friendly calls program, that's when you know, someone calls people who live by themselves and who can get lonely. We heard all kinds of stories during the pandemic, where people, because of pandemic rules, couldn't go out and visit friends and family. So this friendly calls program really helps people connect with those who just can't get out of their homes and are lonely. And it's really does make a huge difference. So, like I said, all kinds of different services for different interests and all the details are@redcross.ca.

Dan Seguin  35:34

Okay, finally, with everything you've experienced, and witnessed, what are you grateful for?

Guy Lepage  35:44

I'm grateful for my health. I'm grateful for my family. And I'm grateful for the experience that I've had with the Red Cross, because it's taught me many things. But the most important thing is to not sweat the small stuff, when I get back from a deployment where people have lost everything they have. And they've got to start from scratch and go through a very stressful time. And then I'm standing in a coffee shop lineup. And I hear people complain about the service or the coffee is too hot, or they got my order wrong or whatever. I just shake my head and said, Come on, guys, you know, first world problems. I'm grateful for everything that I have. And I'm grateful for the opportunities I've been given to help people in time of crisis.

Dan Seguin  36:28

Guy, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got a few for you. Are you ready?

Guy Lepage  36:35

K, I'm ready.

Dan Seguin  36:36

Okay, cool.

Dan Seguin  36:37

Now, what are you reading right now?

Guy Lepage  36:40

I'm a big Stephen King fan. And I'm reading a book called If It Bleeds. I'm behind on my Stephen King reading, because I know there's another one that's been released, and I'm hoping one of my family members will give it to me for Christmas.

Dan Seguin  36:54

Okay. What would be the name of your boat? If you had one? Or maybe have?

Guy Lepage  37:01

No, I doubt it would either be Val after my mother, or Jane after my wife.

Dan Seguin  37:06

Now, who is someone that you admire?

Guy Lepage  37:09

My mom and my wife! They the two most important people in my life. Who teach me teach me so much. My mother who raised me, of course, and my lovely bride who, you know, married 32 years and is still a source of inspiration and my biggest fan.

Dan Seguin  37:26

Okay, moving on here. Guy, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Guy Lepage  37:34

Oh, wow. I have to say, the resilience of people go through a crisis. I mean, it's, it's so inspiring that people have been knocked down, but they're the get up and shake themselves off and say, Okay, let's start rebuilding our lives. So I think that's, that's magical in its own right.

Dan Seguin  37:53

Okay. What has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Guy Lepage  38:01

I think initially it was the stress - the underlying stress. And when you think back to 2020, when there was no, no cure, no vaccine. And we are all literally stuck in our homes totally go out to the grocery store and other emergencies. Thoughts that that was difficult to deal with. Now unfortunate that I deal with stress as a volunteer and when in through work. That was, I think, the biggest challenge.

Dan Seguin  38:27

Okay. We've all been watching a lot more Netflix and TV lately. What's your favorite show or movie? What are you watching right now?

Guy Lepage  38:36

I'm watching Ryan Reynolds, Canadian actor, as you may know, has his bottom soccer team or English football team over in Wales. And they've done a documentary on that really enjoying that. I'm rewatching Ted Lasso because the World Cup and soccer and football. I mean, I enjoyed it. First time around, and I'm enjoying it now. Anything that makes me laugh, I'm all for.

Dan Seguin  39:02

Well, Guy, we've reached the end of another episode of The think energy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and your organization, how should they connect?

Guy Lepage  39:15

redcross.ca has all the information that we've talked about, about the services we provide during a disaster following a disaster and even before a disaster. So redcross.ca is definitely the place to go for that kind of information.

Dan Seguin  39:30

Okay, Guy, thank you so much for joining us today. I hope you truly had a lot of fun. Cheers.

Guy Lepage  39:37

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a blast. Really enjoy sharing my adventures. I truly am a very lucky man to be able to do this. And as I said, share my adventures and thank you for having me, Dan.

Dan Seguin  39:50

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The industrial revolution was yesterday. The electrical revolution is now. Businesses and consumers alike are working to achieve Canada’s net zero targets. We’re seeing bold leadership across the country, innovative solutions across industries. In episode 102 of thinkenergy, we kick off 2023 with some of our favourite guests from the past year. Picking up from our retrospective, Part 2 highlights insights from experts in the energy sector, including Hydro Ottawa’s President and CEO, Bryce Conrad.

Related links

• 2022 Retrospective Part 1: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/advancing-net-zero-part-1-2022-retrospective
• Justin Rangooni, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-rangooni-5063b542/ 
• Justin Rangooni on thinkenegy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/is-energy-storage-the-missing-link-to-a-clean-energy-future/
• Merran Smith LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/merran-smith-64603b63/  
• Merran Smith on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/coming-clean-about-a-clean-electricity-future/
• Bryce Conrad, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryce-conrad-2ab1b352/ 
• Bryce Conrad on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/renewable-energys-role-in-net-zero-with-robert-hornung/ 

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Transcript:

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is think energy - the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Segui n, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry.

Dan Seguin  00:28

Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. Thanks for joining part two of our special holiday podcast as we kick off 2023 with one of the hottest topics in the energy sector net zero. As Canada moves towards its net zero targets, we are seeing companies take bold leadership and adopt new innovations. As they say the Industrial Revolution was yesterday, the electric revolution is now more and more Canadians are working towards their own net zero goals, not only because they feel compelled to do the policy, but because they feel it's the right thing to do. One look at the extreme weather we experienced across Canada last year, may give us a glimpse of why that is. For part two of our special holiday podcast we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero, and how it will shape the future. I've gathered three of my favorite guests from the past year, and what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Justin Rangoon, the Executive Director of Energy Storage Canada, energy storage means more than just batteries. There are many different technologies that can offset peak electricity consumption periods, ultimately preventing the need for expensive emission heavy infrastructure that could lead us away from our clean energy goals. Energy storage can help meet demand spikes and support wide scale deployment of renewable energy sources. Here's Justin to talk about some of the benefits.

Justin Rangooni  02:21

I think the best response would be I found a new analogy. And it was from the New Yorker in a recent article that talked about a bold energy storage provider in terms of optimizing the grids, the assets that are already on the grid. So what they talked about is when in situations when the wind is blowing, the sun is shining, the hydro, the water is flowing, the nuclear plants are humming, energy storage allows the electricity grid to inhale. And then when wind stopped blowing, or the sun's not shining, or the water is not flowing, or the nuclear plants aren't humming, what energy storage allows the grid is to exhale, and deliver that electricity to homes and businesses and charge devices. And so that's what energy storage can do is to optimize what it does if it's part of the overall solution, in terms of balancing the grid and optimizing what you have energy storage can do that. Because one of the benefits of energy storage is that it's portable. It can be situated anywhere in the province or in the country. And of every size and of all the various technologies available. There's lots to choose from. And as system planners can use that as a Swiss army knife to make it work where it has to. So we can balance the grid and optimize the assets and provide reliability. So energy storage is that solution provider for the energy system. So where did you serve can play that critical role of storing electricity when it's generated at times when maybe you don't need it. So instead of curtailing or spilling water, or nurses or maybe importing it or exporting it at a loss for that excess surplus generation, energy storage can store that electricity. So when there's peaks in demand, energy storage can use that the system planners can use the electricity that is stored during those peak demands, and to really start leveling out that need for the new peaker plants or existing peaker plants for that matter. So it's really storing the energy for future use. And that's why we're so excited about energy storage.

Dan Seguin  04:19

The pressure to tackle pollution and climate change is increasing as countries around the globe are eliminating greenhouse gases and transitioning away from fossil fuels. This shift towards a cleaner future involves a lot of moving parts especially as it relates to cleaning Canada's energy sector. Marren Smith, Founder and Chief Innovation Officer at clean energy Canada shared her thoughts about whether Canada can affordably and realistically accelerate our clean energy transition to reach our net zero goals.

Marren Smith  04:58

There are three positive changes that I see. One, the costs of these clean energy technologies have dropped significantly. So the solutions are cheaper. Secondly, is that we really moved past the climate debate in Canada. And thirdly, is electric vehicles. And I just want to talk a bit about each of those if that's okay, so the costs of clean energy technologies, many people don't understand that. Over this last decade, the cost of solar has dropped yet again, it's dropped another 90%. Over the last decade, the cost of batteries, which are the heart of an electric vehicle, have dropped about 90%, and wind has dropped about 20%. And so, you know, a dozen years ago, clean energy Canada was talking about this coming, we need to prepare Canada needs to be aware as an oil and gas producer, we need to be looking at this clean energy transition. But now, it's here, these technologies are ready for primetime. And the economic opportunities are there to create jobs here in Canada around those clean energies. So that's significant. And the second one is I think we've all lived through and seen in the news, this debate about whether Canada should be acting on climate, whether it's real, whether Canada has any responsibility, whether it's feasible, and that's now become a real global conversation. And there's a clear message globally that we need to act now. And, you know, we've had over these last six years, the federal government, with the leadership that's aligning with those global efforts to act on climate. And in fact, this federal government has created the first climate plan that Canada had to meet our climate targets, and they're now really putting it into action. And so that's been a significant and positive shift that we're actually moving to action. And thirdly is around electric vehicles. And, you know, I just have to say them specifically. Because, in my observation, they really show Canadians what the transition looks like. It kind of looks like what it used to be, you know, an electric vehicle and a gas fired vehicle, they look pretty similar. But people are seeing how much better they are that they are more affordable to drive. And especially with today's price of gas, you know, if you're plugging in and charging your car, you know, your Chevy Bolt and getting 400 kilometers for somewhere, you know, depending on where you live in Canada, five to $10 versus what it's costing to fill up your car that's significant. So electric vehicles and how fast they have come online, how we have seen, the manufacturers shift is to go from we're resisting this to this as the future we want to be out in front and competing to be the ones who are going to be producing them. So that dramatic shift, it's really showing how we can link this decarbonisation climate action with the economy, that our industries can be successful and that we can really move forward towards Net Zero towards decarbonisation towards cleaner energies and continue with a strong economy if we do it right if we act now.

Dan Seguin  08:35

And my last guest is Bryce Conrad, President and CEO of Hydro Ottawa. Yep, my boss. Otherwise, the energy ecosystem is unique, with long standing localized and green generation. In fact, hydro Ottawa is the largest municipally owned producer of clean, renewable energy in Canada, with 131 megawatts of total green generation capacity, enough to power approximately 110,000 homes a year. Bryce joined us on the program early in 2022, to discuss the inspiration behind the company's decision to make its entire operation net zero by 2030. His answer was surprising.

Bryce Conrad  09:28

So YouTube, you can go back and view all these old speeches in March minute.But look, if you go back to JFK, in 1961, so he does this speech before for the joy of the House and Senate. And you know, it's not a long speech, I'd encourage everyone to go watch it. There's about a minute long clip that's irrelevant anyway.And in that speech, he says, we are going to go to the moon before the end of the decade, so he's doing this in 61. Obviously, they went to the moon in 69. So, as part of that he does something that people don't do enough of these days, right? He literally says, we're gonna go to the moon. So that's our objective, and I have no idea how we're gonna get there, I'm paraphrasing him. Obviously, I have no idea how we're gonna get there, the technology doesn't exist, the fuel doesn't exist, the booster rocket technology doesn't exist. And that kind of the capsule necessary to get someone to and from the moon doesn't exist today. So he's making this bold announcement, and then acknowledging that he doesn't know how they're going to do it. And I thought, that's just so quite frankly, refreshing in this day and age where everything is kind of prepackaged, right? Like, we know what we're going to do this next two years, but we already know that we've got it in the bag, and here's how it's going to be done. I like the idea of setting the big, hairy, audacious goal for the company and saying, I've said this to the management team, I have no clue how we're gonna get there. I know what we need to start doing. But I don't know what the answer is. But I work with some of the smartest people in the game. And I know that if, if they're empowered to do this, and we put our minds to this, we will do this, like, you know, and that's what Kennedy counted on 61. And that's lo and behold, but you know what happened? So, when I liken it to the moonshot, it's just that it's the big, hairy, audacious goal, without any real clear roadmap as to how to accomplish that goal. And I think quite frankly, that's what serves us best is when we don't necessarily have the answers we have to make up. We have to figure our way through this sort of stuff. And I see that every day at the company, right? If you look back at how we handled the tornadoes, if you look back at the way we handle the floods, if you look at the way we handle our system, yeah, there's a lot of prescriptive stuff. Yes, there's a lot of this is how we do things. But you know, there are a lot of days we throw out the rulebook, you throw out the manual, and you have to figure your way forward. And that's when this company is at its best. So that's the moonshot.

Dan Seguin  12:06

So thanks for joining me for part two of our advancing Net Zero Holiday special. We'll be back in two weeks on Monday, January 16, to be precise to kick off 2023 with all new shows, interesting guests and topics. I'm sure there'll be a few surprises also. Thanks for listening, folks. Happy New Year, everyone. Cheers.

Dan Seguin  12:32

Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

We are at the start of an electrical revolution. A spark of change is flaming across the country – renewable energy, electrification, the Canadian Net-Zero Emissions Accountability Act. Conversations have become actions. Industries are united, working together to achieve Canada’s net-zero targets. In Episode 101 of the thinkenergy podcast, host Dan Séguin looks back at some of our favourite guests from 2022, sharing insights and ideas about the transition to net zero and how it’s shaping our future.

Related links

• Caroline Lee, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/caroline-lee-12345cl/
• Caroline Lee, Twitter: https://twitter.com/caroline_lee2
• Caroline Lee on thinkenegy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-canadian-climate-institutes-big-switch/
• Catherine Abreu, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/catherine-abreu-574764250/ 
• Catherine Abreu, Twitter: https://twitter.com/catabreu_  
• Catherine Abreu on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/the-journey-to-a-net-zero-future/
• Robert Hornung, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-hornung-3220145b/ 
• Robert Hornung, Twitter: https://twitter.com/roberthornung2?lang=en 
• Robert Hornung on thinkenergy: https://thinkenergypodcast.com/episodes/renewable-energys-role-in-net-zero-with-robert-hornung/ 

To subscribe using Apple Podcasts: 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thinkenergy/id1465129405

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https://open.spotify.com/show/7wFz7rdR8Gq3f2WOafjxpl

Transcript: 

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is Think Energy. The podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. This is the think energy podcast. And I'm Dan Seguin. With electrification, renewable energy, electric cars and policy to reduce our reliance on oil and gas. 2022 showed that we are at the start of an electrical revolution. 2022 marked a transformational year in numerous industries, the energy sector, the transportation sector, the building and construction sector and the technology sector. All of these industries became allies in the country's goal to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions and work towards achieving Canada's Net Zero targets. The Canadian Net Zero Emissions Accountability Act, which became law on June 29 2021, enshrined in legislation Canada's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050. But it was this year that we saw the momentum begin in a big way. For part one of our special holiday podcast, we're focusing on Canada's transition to net zero and how it will shape the future. I've gathered some of my favorite guests from the past year, and thought I'd reshare what they had to say about one of the biggest topics of the year. My first guest is Caroline Lee, mitigation research lead with the Canadian Climate Institute. According to the Canadian Climate Institute, the country's leading climate change policy research organization, all roads to net zero pass through electricity. I know we've mentioned this many times on the show, but it bears repeating how Canada produces some of the cleanest electricity in the world. 80% of the electricity generated across Canada comes from sources completely free of greenhouse gas emissions, Caroline does an excellent job at defining net zero. And the premise behind the Canadian Climate Institute report, The Big Switch,

Caroline Lee  02:44

Maybe I can start with this first explanation around what the net zero goal actually means, you know, Canada, just recently committed to achieving net zero emissions by 2050. And this is an ambitious goal. And what that means is that Canada has agreed to really zero out our emissions to get our emissions as close as we can to zero, and then whatever emissions are very expensive, or technically very difficult to get out of the economy than we offset in some way. So again, this is an ambitious goal, there's a lot that needs to be done, especially in electricity to support that goal. And the reason why we say all roads to net zero paths through electricity is that when we looked at all the studies that model a trajectory for Canada reaching net zero, there really was no credible path without this switch towards electricity. And without making the generation of electricity cleaner. So we really saw tackling electricity as being critical to the achievement of Canada's netzero goals. And maybe I can just say it and in simple terms, three key reasons why that switch is so important. So first of all, electricity itself when you use it, it doesn't burn fossil fuel, of course, so therefore, it doesn't release greenhouse gas emission. So we all know that if you're driving an Eevee, you're not generating greenhouse gas emissions directly. Now, of course, we also know that the production of electricity can generate emissions. So we can use fossil fuels like coal and natural gas to generate electricity. So that's where you can get some emissions. But what's really positive news in Canada and really around the world is that we're making quite significant progress, especially here in Canada, to reduce those emissions associated with producing electricity. And now that the federal government has a commitment to achieve Net Zero electricity by 2035. The country now has a clear mandate that we're going to be eliminating by and large those emissions associated with producing electricity. So that's a really big thing is that electricity in the future could really be this conduit. for using fully non emitting electricity from the beginning to the end. And then a third reason why electricity is so important is that it's just more efficient. So, driving an electric vehicle is actually three to four times more efficient than using fossil fuels to drive that vehicle. And that's because you lose so much more heat, there's a lot of energy that's wasted when you're combusting fossil fuel. So, because of those three reasons, electricity does seem to play a really critical role in achieving our climate goals.

Dan Seguin  05:31

My next guest is the renowned Catherine Ebru, Executive Director of Destination Zero. Catherine talks about the costs and the rising volatility that exists around the world when it comes to subsidizing fossil fuel sources. Catherine digs into how renewables are not only more reliable, but also more resilient than many people give them credit for.

Catherine Abreu  05:58

The concern over rising energy costs is a huge one. You know, we've actually seen that rear its head pretty substantially this year, in the late half of 2021, with rising energy costs across Europe, relating mostly to the rising costs of gas. And I think actually, a big lesson that we're learning from the energy cost crisis that many parts of Europe and other parts of the world are experiencing right now is that the fossil fuel market is actually quite volatile. And that volatility has impacted Canada quite a bit as a major oil and gas producer already. But it's starting to impact not only, you know, production and jobs related to that production of fossil fuels, it's starting to also now penetrate energy systems that rely on those fossil fuels. And so we need to be correcting for that volatility. And a part of how we do that actually, and this is maybe counterintuitive to a lot of folks, because there's a lot of misguiding rhetoric out there around renewable energy. But part of how we make energy systems more resilient is by incorporating more renewable energy and more distributed renewable energy generation into those systems. And then another important piece is energy efficiency. So you make those energy systems really lean as much as you can, by cutting energy waste, right? So we want to be making sure that we're not losing energy as it's transferred from where it's created to where it's used. We want to make sure that when it's used, it's used as efficiently as possible. And so those investments in energy efficiency help make the energy system more stable. And then when we make that energy system run on renewable energy, and when we're talking about renewable energy, we're talking about a mix here of water, when sun and storage, of course, then we see that there is a new kind of resilience put into that system. Because often those energy sources can help us lock in long term prices that are much more stable than the volatile energy prices associated with fossil fuels. So that is the kind of longer term solution that we're looking to hear about in the long run, that can really offer much lower and more stable energy prices for people. But unfortunately, we've heard a lot of misguided, or I think, intentionally misrepresented rhetoric around renewable energy and having a high cost. And the only reason that it appears to have a high cost is because fossil fuel energy has been subsidized so heavily for the last century by governments, that those fossil fuels tend to have an artificially lower cost. But we're paying for that artificially lower cost as taxpayers. And so part of the equation here is leveling out the playing field between fossil fuels and renewable energy by supporting the growth of renewable energy and stopping subsidies to fossil fuels.

Dan Seguin  09:03

My last guest on part one of our holiday retrospective episode is Robert Horning CEO of the Canadian Renewable Energy Association. Robert joined me back in February of 2022, and talked about why he believes when and solar are Canada's answer to decarbonizing the electricity system. He also details what it's really going to take to achieve Canada's netzero goals.

Robert Hornung  09:35

Well, I think first off, we have to sort of look at some of the research that's been done different studies that have looked at what are the pathways to get to net zero greenhouse gas emissions? We've just said it's an enormous challenge. How do we get there? And those studies consistently show that to get to net zero, you have to first and foremost decarbonize electricity production so that you're not producing greenhouse gas emissions from electricity anymore. And then you have to expand that electricity production because you're going to want to use that electricity to substitute for fossil fuels in areas like transportation and in buildings and industries. Now another thing that those studies consistently show is that the majority of that new electricity that we're going to need is going to come from wind and solar. And why is that? The simple reason is because wind and solar are the lowest cost options for new electricity production in the world today. And our vision developed an illustrative scenario, which is consistent with the findings of these netzero studies, which sort of assumes we're going to need to double electricity production, we assume that two thirds of that new electricity production is going to come from wind and solar. And that leads us to the calculation that that means you have to expand wind and solar to be in Canada tenfold in the next 30 years. And that's why it's an urgent call to action. That's a mammoth task. It's achievable. But we have to get started now. I mean, I think we're already starting to see some real evidence of this transition occurring, although we're at an early stage. So in the transportation sector, everyone's aware, we're moving towards a world dominated by electric vehicles in the future, you see it in the choices made by auto manufacturers, consumers, etc. Going forward. But it's really more about electric mobility. You also see a growing number of e-bikes, for example, going forward, we see increasing investments in the electrification of public transportation. So there's a real drive there in terms of the transportation sector. In terms of buildings, heat pumps are going to be critical as a technology that allows us to reduce our reliance on natural gas for heating purposes going forward. And within industry, within heavy industry, we already see announcements being made from steel producers who are switching to electric arc furnaces, the aluminum smelters, but are starting to electrify and across all of those areas, electrification is not the answer for everything. There, there are applications where electricity is not going to be the solution. But for many of those applications, you can actually use clean electricity to produce hydrogen, green hydrogen if it's produced from renewable electricity. And that green hydrogen can then be used to support things like freight transportation, or long distance transportation, or other industrial processes. So electricity really will have a central role to play. And again, we're starting to see that transition occur. But again, we have to accelerate those efforts especially if we're going to achieve our targets.

Dan Seguin  12:37

Net zero is going to continue to be a hot topic of conversations and 2023. Thanks for joining me for part one of our advancing Net Zero holiday special. Tune in on January 2 For part two. And thanks for listening, folks. Have a happy and safe holiday everyone. Cheers. Thanks for tuning in to another episode of The think energy podcast. And don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit think energy podcast.com. I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.

The energy sector is evolving at lightning speed, and customer expectations are at an all-time high. As are concerns about electricity itself – how it’s produced, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how efficiently it’s powering our lives. So, how are utilities planning to meet expectations and address these concerns? In episode 100 of the thinkenergy podcast, we sit down with Hydro Ottawa’s Chief Customer Officer, Julie Lupinacci, to discuss what electricity customers want and the solutions we’re delivering. 

Related links

• Julie Lupinacci, LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliejlupinacci/  
• Julie Lupinacci, Twitter: https://twitter.com/juliejlupinacci 
• Power outage safety: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/outages-safety/outage-centre/outage-safety 
• Energy saving resources: https://www.hydroottawa.com/en/save-energy
• 2021–2025 strategic direction: https://hydroottawa.com/en/about-us/our-company/our-reports 

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Think_Energy_Podcast_EP100_V2

What Electricity Customers Want

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

customers, ottawa, working, hydro, people, electricity, programs, julie, city, planning, energy, pandemic, talk, utilities, component, industry, happening, community, cases, helping

SPEAKERS

Dan Seguin, Julie Lupinacci

Dan Seguin  00:06

This is thinkenergy, the podcast that helps you better understand the fast changing world of energy through conversations with game changers, industry leaders, and influencers. So join me, Dan Seguin, as I explore both traditional and unconventional facets of the energy industry. Hey, everyone, welcome back. Today's show marks the 100th podcast episode. Woohoo. It's hard to believe that we've already reached this milestone. I want to thank everyone that has worked behind the scenes on the show, our incredible guests who graciously share their time and expertise. And of course, dear listener, thank you for tuning into our program. It's truly been an honor for me to share information about the energy sector and all of the amazing people that work in this industry. So with that, let's get on with today's 100th podcast episode. As we discussed over many interviews, the energy landscape is evolving at lightning speed. Those innovations and changes are coming fast and furious. And there's a lot for customers to absorb. It's clear that perhaps more than at any other time in history, customers are thinking about their electricity, how it's made, how reliable it is, how much it costs, and how they can be more in control of it to power their lives. What customers want and expect is changing the electricity sector. It's changing how utilities do business, how they communicate, and what service offerings they provide. customer expectations have never been higher, and utilities must evolve, innovate and provide exceptional expertise, programs and technology to give customers what they want and expect from a modern utility from smart home tech that can help customers manage their device and overall consumption to home generation technology like solar panels, batteries for energy storage, and incentives for installing goes renewables and even how to better prepare for a changing climate, more storms and an increase in frequent and prolonged power outages. So, here's today's big question. How are utilities planning to meet the expectations of today's customer and their needs? Today's guest is my boss, Julie Lupinacci. As the Chief Customer Officer at Hydro Ottawa, Julie is responsible for developing and implementing the customer strategy, transforming the total customer experience and guiding the direction of the business in terms of customer needs. She provides oversight for customer service marketing, product development, external communications, Public Affairs, corporate reputation, and the overall branding strategies. With more than 15 years in Customer Care, sales and marketing, Julie has a wide background in business including project management, customer and vendor relations, international partner program management, procurement, sales, marketing, and program development. Wow. Julie, thanks for joining us today. Now, you've been in the electricity industry approximately five years now, maybe a little more in comparison to your experience with customers in other industries? How are electricity customers different? How are their needs unique?

Julie Lupinacci  04:11

Yeah, so it's been interesting. And when I when I got this question, I was thinking back on the last five years and how much I've learned about the industry and learn about our customers in particular and I would say the basis of what's different is is the industry we're in right like Hydro Ottawa is a this is essentially provides an essential service to our customers, which didn't happen in my previous in my previous world. So the fact that the customers rely on us for a product that is so essential in so many aspects of their lives. For some customers, it's a matter of life and death, right? That in itself changes how we work with our customers and what their needs are, and what we need to support. So that reality is something that we have to hold in the forefront of everything that we do. The very nature of what customers need from us makes that different, right? The timelines of what they need are tighter. And the criticality of our communications to customers becomes even more heightened. Whether it be a storm, or an outage, or an outage at one person's house, like that doesn't matter, the customer is out of what we need to provide. And the criticality of getting that back in a very condensed time frame, in order for that customer to continue moving forward, becomes essential. So everything becomes a lot tighter and more critical. And I would say the other component of what we provide, it's not a, in some cases, customers don't have a choice right on whether they need electricity or not, like I guess in fundamentally, they could figure that out. But if you've come to rely on electricity for your daily needs, and to run your households, the fact that electricity is now part of your requirements, you don't get to have a choice necessarily do I? Do I want electricity today or tomorrow to put my lights on? Affordability becomes a big component. And it's one that we need to think about for our customers: the choices on how we develop the grid, how we evolve as an organization, we need to keep affordability, sustainability, and the fact that energy needs to be attainable for our customers that has to guide what we do. And that's not true for every of every industry, and definitely not true for the previous ones I've worked for.

Dan Seguin  06:53

Julie, what are the three biggest issues for electricity customers right now?

Julie Lupinacci  07:01

Yeah, I think right now, in the November 2022, or December 2022, as this airs, affordability is probably front of mind, for most customers, the share of wallet is just not going as far with the cost of inflation. I think that's probably the primary issue for electricity customers right now. But I would say that a close second is, what the reliability of this electricity is. So the climate adaptation that we are doing as an entire city, as we're looking at what you know, more extreme weather events that are coming, the reliability of what we provide is probably a close second, right? So they want to be able to afford the commodity that is coming into their house. But they also want to be able to rely on it. And as they're making choices for what their energy future is going to be, as they're making choices about what car they're going to be purchasing next, as they're going to make choices for how they're going to heat and cool their home and making choices about fuel sources. You want to make sure that you're choosing what's reliable and that you know, reliability is there. So I think affordability and reliability are close one and two. And that is sustainable, right? We've got a lot of people that are thinking about their future, their carbon footprint, their net zero. So I think people are looking at how I conserve my energy usage? How am I smart about what I'm doing? And how am I making sure that I'm choosing things that are going to be there for the long haul, right and looking for something that's sustainable, that's good for our planet, but it's going to be around and something that they can count on. Okay,

Dan Seguin  08:53

Now I have a follow up question. What are some of the ways that hydro Ottawa is addressing those customer issues?

Julie Lupinacci  08:59

Yeah, so we're doing a number of different things. So one, I think how we put together plans for the growth of the grid, how we put plans to maintain the grid and evolve the grid is definitely something that we look at with those three things in mind. But also from a customer perspective, we are looking at bringing programs to them to help them have more access and more readily access to that information. So get a hold of their data so they can start making decisions. We're working with the Ministry of Energy on different pricing programs that might make sense according to the different behaviors, not everybody has the same lifestyle. Not everybody operates only you know, in the evenings in their house and people in especially during the pandemic like we have with we've seen very different lifestyle, and workdays come to be. So we're really well Looking at all of those things that are happening here in Ottawa, and marrying programs that make sense both from a pricing perspective, as well as energy choice. So looking at different Evie programs that we are bringing forward, looking at different energy efficiency programs that might be there and getting information into the hands of customers. In particular, there's been a lot of conversation over the last couple years, I'd say maybe a little bit more about netzero. And with the announcements the federal government, provincial, government and even municipal government have made customers are thinking about how they play in that. And there's a lot of questions and hydro Ottawa is providing information to those customers to be able to help them to be informed of what's possible, and then help give programs to get them on pathways to get there for themselves.

Dan Seguin  10:52

We are all aware that Ottawa has had some major major weather events, these past five to six years. What would you say to customers that are worried about reliability, power outages, and restoration?

Julie Lupinacci  11:10

Yeah, weather events have been tough. They're tough fun. And I don't think Ottawa has seen something like this in a very long time, like probably since the 98’ Ice Storm. And I'm not even sure that really measured up to the same impact right of what we saw and what customers dealt with. But what I would, what I would say is hydro Ottawa has put a lot of focus on what we need to do from a grid perspective to adapt to the changing climate that we're seeing here in Ottawa. And that includes those weather events. Like I don't want to pretend that I know more than our chief electricity distribution officer, like I think you interviewed him maybe a couple of weeks ago. And in that podcast, he talks about what we're doing to future proof, the grid against those extreme weather events. So I'm not going to, I'm not going to try to think that I have anything more impactful that he will say on that front. But I will say that, from a front office perspective, from a customer service, from a communications perspective, we are really looking at a lot of those tools, and further modernizing them. And what I mean by that is, is taking a look at some different technology that allows us to receive more phone calls into our system, triage those phone calls, using some cloud based technology, so that not everybody is forced to talk to an individual because even at the height of the storm, like you're not going to have 10,000 people answering phone calls within a couple of minutes of a storm hitting, but we can use technology to triage to allow our customers to know that we know if they are out of power and provide them with the information that we have at that time. So looking at updating some of the telephony software that we have in utilize some of the new technology there. So we are actively working on that. The other component to communications because I think communications really is that biggest avenue for our customers especially during these winter weather events is pushing information out. And we are looking through and working on an SMS text based technology system that allows us to push information out similar to what we're pushing out through our social media channels today. Now sending that information directly to customers either on their iPhone or potentially in their email box however they want to receive those inputs and alerts from hydro Ottawa. We also took some steps to help people become aware like the weather alert, the weather system and the weather alerts that are out there giving people a heads up on systems that are coming through. Like that's, that's one thing. But I think customers want to know, when we're looking at a weather event that's different, right? You'll you'll know when rains coming into Ottawa and you'll get those alerts about snow and all of those things, but not all weather impacts our grid and what we're looking at is to be able to provide an alert system again through through whether it's SMS or an email out directly into customers inboxes so to speak, giving them a heads up when we're watching it differently right and if we're watching it differently, you know, messages are going out make sure phones are charged make sure that you've got blankets make sure you know where your your flashlights and your your candles are. So really concentrate on getting people ready for what they need to do. So there's you know, there's a few steps and you can follow us on hydro ottawa.com to get better details on that. But that's what we're doing and making sure that we're putting that out there. Additionally, we've piloted -Sorry Dan, I got one more. Additionally, we've piloted a battery program. This was used to be able to support some of our capital work. But in the recent storm this year, we use that battery pilot to be able to help some of the most vulnerable customers in Ottawa, that are really relying on electricity to be able to breathe, right and working with the paramedics hand in hand to make sure that these batteries got to those households so that they, you know, had some additional time for us to get the power back on, either to their house or to the community.

Dan Seguin  15:32

Now telling me Julie, what are some of the things customers can do to be better prepared for emergencies? And outages?

Julie Lupinacci  15:42

Yeah, so I think there's a few things that we need to do . I think we need some major awareness about what that is, like, going back to our elementary school days, when we had to plot out the fire, you know, the fire escape plan for our house, right? And go back to thinking about if there's an emergency, do we have an emergency kit together? Right? Do we have bottled water in our systems in our house? Do we have working flashlights, right? Not just flashlights that don't have batteries? But what are those batteries? And they are up to date, right? Making sure that you have them not all over the place, but you know where these flashlights are right? If anybody's like my kids, they come in, they grab the flashlights, and all of a sudden they're in different locations around the house like they need to be, your emergency kit needs to be in one central place so that you know how to get to it, whether the lights are on or off. The other piece is I would, I would make sure that you're following us on our social channels, because we do put information out there. So make sure if you haven't connected with us that you do connect with us. And you can go to our website to find out what those are, I won't, I won't run them off here. But the other piece that I would really strongly suggest is that people go and update their contact information into our database, or into our database, which will become even more crucial as we start sending these alerts and messages directly to you. Right, no longer just through social media but directly to you in your household to be able to let you know what's going. And if I could say one other thing is that I think planning based on our reliability that we've always had, and the experience that you've always had to these dates, it's no longer enough, right? Like Hydro Ottawa is going to do everything that we can to get the power back on. But you need to plan for worst case scenario, you can't plan only for the best case. So having an alternative place to go speaking with family and saying if power is out here, we're going to come over and what do we need to bring? Having those plans in place in advance makes you better equipped to withstand any weather event that comes through that may have an outage associated with it?

Dan Seguin  17:49

Okay, moving on. Hydro Ottawa released its 2021- 2025 strategic direction. Why is that five year plan important? And what are the highlights from a customer perspective that customers should be aware of? Yeah,

Julie Lupinacci  18:08

I think any organization that's not looking five years out, so it's going to be really awakened as you start to figure out what capital planning looks like. Like it doesn't take. You can't build a substation overnight. You cannot bring additional capacity into a city without some plans. And our strategic direction really helps us do that. And it helps put some guideposts in place with regards to keeping us focused, right. There's a lot of new technology that makes shiny things that people want. But really having a strategic direction that allows us to go back to what that Northstar is, what those guiding points are, what is that end goal that we're trying to get to is really important, because cities aren't planned on a dime. And neither is the grid that supports those cities. So that five year plan really looks and works with the city to say, Where are you going? How is growth happening? And then how do we support that? And then, in in line with this strategic direction, we've also taken a very, very big leadership role in in setting ourselves up for net zero and not just us as as as hydro Ottawa, but as a partner with the city of Ottawa as a integral component of the Ontario electricity grid, an integral component of the Canadian grid. And I think that comes with a responsibility to make sure that we're looking forward and making the decisions that have to happen today for some of those assets that are going to be around for that 2050 goal that Canada has. So we're really focused on maintaining the reliability that we've been seeing over the last decade. We've had great reliability here in Ottawa despite some of the storms that have happened. Our reliability numbers continue to Be strong. So making sure that we're continuing to evolve in a smart way. And making sure that we maintain that reliability in line with the growth that's happening in the city, right, where we're seeing not only expansion into some of the other, you know, we're seeing suburbs butting up against each other now, right. And, you know, I'm not even sure if there's a true delineation between Canada and Stittsville. Sometimes, because it's like a bridge, you just go over one, one street, and now you're in the different suburbs. So, that blurring that's happening is fine. So that's the growth that's happening and expanding of the city. But we're also densifying some of the downtown core areas, so we're going upwards. And that requires a different type of planning on the infrastructure that already exists. We need to grow that infrastructure, we need to change how we're adopting those arrows potentially, and then look at planning for vehicle switching from gas to EVs. Right? So the electric, the electric vehicles, how do we support that growth? How do we support some of the growth with buildings that are converting from gas to electricity, or some of the new buildings that are looking at different technology and making sure that as they're building, the capacity is there. So all of those things are aligned within that, that we have an eight point strategy that's there. And, and the customer continues to be the center of that strategy? So as we're making decisions, we're thinking of it through that customer lens? And how is the customer going to be impacted? How is the customer going to work with us, and let's make sure that we're spending money and time and focus energy on ensuring that the electricity grid is there for the needs of the future. And then the last piece that I would put is, we're really looking at streamlining processes for our customers, right, there's a lot of steps that are in place. And in some of those, those process flows, that in some cases, technology allows us to leapfrog for our customers. Many customers don't want to talk to us directly anymore. So they want to use chat functionality, or they want to just be able to go and search a Frequently Asked Questions area, or get a how to documents sent to them so that they can do it, in some cases themselves. And we are hearing that from our customers. And we are taking the steps to make sure that we streamline those processes for that,

Dan Seguin  22:25

Julie, what role does Hydro Ottawa or utilities in general have when it comes to delivering solutions for customers to reduce their consumption and greenhouse gas emissions?

Julie Lupinacci  22:38

So, I think that we have a big responsibility there to keep people informed. I think awareness is pretty key when it comes to energy efficiency. And knowing where you're starting from, I think is a big component. So as utilities, I think we need to constantly ask ourselves, where is the customer in, in their knowledge of what we're trying to get them to do or what they're needing to do or what they're wanting to do. So I would hazard a guess that not many people have a true understanding of what their carbon footprint is, I would hazard a guess that we don't all know what our emission baseline is. So asking people to do something to reduce that. And they don't know what their baseline is, I think I think that's a misstep. So utilities, in general, I think have a responsibility to help customers understand how to do that calculation. And then identify pathways and programs that they can make choices that help enrich them towards what they're trying to do. So in some cases, it's painting the picture of what that future looks like, giving them choices of what the future can look like. And then once the customer chooses that, help them to make decisions to get them closer to that. So whether that be having a digital footprint with us, right reducing the need for us to mail a bill. So they're going off of paper and onto an email bill or coming to a website to get all of the details behind their bill. I think helping them understand what that impact is, is important. Making sure that we are doing sustainable business practices for our customers is important as well, right? Like we've made different choices in our building with regards to how we process waste, how we are moving around the city, what we do, when we have trucks that may not be Eevee. There may not be an Eevee model ready for the trucks that we need. But how are we planning for that to bring in those sustainable business practices? How are we leveraging tools to be able to take not necessarily like I'm unnecessary steps out of the process, whether it be a new material that a lot, that's a more sustainable material that doesn't have us cutting down trees or others. Like I think there's some things that we are looking at that to make choices about what that what that future is going to look like. And I think the other component that we have as utilities is we need to be leaders in the field, right, we need to look at what's happening, not just here in Canada, but there are other jurisdictions around this globe that have been doing conservation because they've needed to do conservation. And and so they've, they've, I don't want to say perfected it, but they've advanced it significantly. And in some cases, we can leapfrog what their program is to an even better program with potentially new technology or even a different focus. So we're looking at, we're looking into Europe, and what are they doing with regards to conservation? What are they doing with regards to energy efficiency? And how can we take what they're doing and adopt it here. And so I think utilities have a obligation to look outside of our own four walls, look outside of our province, even look inside of our country to see what are some of those things that are working elsewhere, that can be brought here for our customers.

Dan Seguin  26:21

Now, wondering if you could outline some initiatives that hydro Auto is doing to help its customers in that area?

Julie Lupinacci  26:30

Sure, there's a whole load of ones that we can talk to, and I would encourage you to follow our blog, because we talk about a lot of those pieces and share some of those details in greater detail. And some of the case studies that we do share, may have a direct impact on some other customers. And you would see how that translates into your business or interior household. But we work very closely with the City of Ottawa on their energy evolution file. And taking a look at everything from where public EV chargers need to be set up, talking to them about how to retrofit their own buildings and be future proofed from and have a smart energy component to that, talking about how we build better communities. So we're there talking with them at the planning stages of that. So those are things that we do with the city, we are looking at distributed energy resources in a very thoughtful and deliberate way, and seeing how we can leverage some of the distributed energy resources that exist in our city today, how we align it to the grid, and how we use these distributed energy resources to bridge the evolution that's needed to be able to get to that future where the capacity need is, is maybe even three times what we're seeing today. So how are we planning for that with traditional assets? But also how can we bridge and leverage distributed energy resources that exist and will exist in our service territory? So we're doing that tons of education says, as I talked about, whether you look at our blogs, the newsletters that go out, read them, there's some really cool things and ideas that are in there for you as residential customers, and even commercial customers. We had an amazing symposium where we just started some of the conversation about what these different projects and initiatives are that we're doing with customers and can do with customers. You look at the Zibi Community, right downtown, like right behind shudder right beside sheer falls and behind the parliament. And that community itself is built completely differently, right, looking at using renewable energy, looking at using the steam off of Kruger that's just across the river, and how that heats the building and heats the community. And then looking at, you know, from an environmental footprint, what we did at a shelter falls with the eel ladder and helping with the eel migratory patterns is one element. We have a new substation in barre haven where we were very deliberate and kept a parcel of that land for a pollinator meadow. And really looking at how we promote the pollinators to be in the area that helped that particular growth. And then a number of conservation programs that we're working with with either the ISO which is our Independent Electricity System, distributor, or off operator and working with them and the Ministry of Energy on here are some programs that we see that can help bridge a defer capital investments because the capacity is here and we're sharing the capacity a little bit different, and even encouraged people to conserve energy, you know, not leaving their lights on not leaving motors running, generators, running, and all kinds of different programs that we can look at from that perspective. So lots of pilots, lots of different programs that are in flight and pilots to come.

Dan Seguin  29:59

What new and innovative plans are you making for the short, mid and long term when it comes to customers? And what hydro Ottawa offers?

Julie Lupinacci  30:12

Yeah, so I think I mentioned our, our battery loan program, you know that that was a one that we had thought would be a one and done type of thing during, during the early days of the pandemic. And the results that we saw on that program just made it one that we don't see going away anymore. So looking at continuing to evolve that program and scale it up. So I think that would be, you know, a short term. One. Another short term one is some of the Eevee programs that we're working on, that are coming to market with regards to being able to not only see where the EVs are coming up, but predict where the next EVs are going to be coming in. And even having a bit of a different relationship with those Eevee owners. So some type of a demand response program, you'll see that too short to mid term. With regards to helping customers understand that if they defer or delay charging their car until the evening, there might be a cost benefit, but also some benefit to us overall. So I think you'll see a lot of those kinds of demand response pilots to really see how and what we need to do, and engage our community and help us get there, right? We can't do this as single, single folks, we need to do this as a full community looking towards that future. And long term, I think you'll see some of those continuing to innovate. With regards to just building smarter communities, renewables within communities, you'll look at a different way of doing some substation work, and bringing that power here into the city of Ottawa.

Dan Seguin  31:51

Now, in 2021, hydro Ottawa announced that it will achieve Net Zero operations by 2030. How will this help or improve the lives of Ottawa residents?

Julie Lupinacci  32:04

It's a very philosophical question in some cases, because I think there's still a lot of misconception or confusion around what net zero means, right? And people think that going to net zero means there's no emissions. And that's not true. Net Zero means that we are becoming carbon neutral or emission neutral. So we may emit some emissions on one side of the business. But we're, we're offsetting in another area. So I think, I think it's a few different things. I think it gets us off thinking in a very different way. It helps to stimulate a conversation that is much needed to be able to advance. And I think we have a corporate responsibility to move that forward here within the City of Ottawa, especially being the capital of Ottawa, when you have your Prime Ministers sit up there and say, we're going to be net zero by 2050. And nobody moves until 2049. It's not going to work great. So people need to move early. And I think hydro Ottawa has demonstrated a lot of those advancements towards this net zero operations even in advance of, of when we announced it, right, like a lot of some of what we were doing a lot of what we were doing sorry, was really in play before that we had a very different way of building our our generation downtown Ottawa and we took the environment into account, we took a very accountable, measured approach to how we were doing our development and you're gonna see that continue in what we do. As we build substations, how do we do that to make sure that we have the least impact on the environment, and that we leave the space that we're in as good or better is really what we're trying to do than that have been when we got there, I look at the the Cambrian substation and bar Haven, and it is better than when we put our plant there because we have a pollinator meadow that's very deliberate, and what we're doing, we're taking care of the lands that are that are there, and you're gonna see that happen throughout. And it's all in for that larger view. With regards to Ottawa residents, I think it's important for them to know that they have a utility provider that cares about that as much as they do. And that are putting very thoughtful approach to how we go about doing things and we're not just doing it for the sake of doing it it means something this last spring, although small, in its in its in its infancy and I see it growing you know, we we planted trees, as part of our employees as part of their volunteer day that they get with the company went out into community and planted trees in an area that was where they were much needed. So I think you'll see a lot of those types of initiatives all happening within the city and with our company.

Dan Seguin  35:04

Julie, is this what customers expect from a modern utility? What other ways is hydro Ottawa innovating?

Julie Lupinacci  35:14

Yeah, I think expectations on on utilities as well as most organizations is changing significantly, customers are wanting organizations, corporations to not just be good corporate citizens, but to be accountable for the decisions and the activities that they do to be transparent, and why we're making those decisions, and how we're making those decisions. So when we talk about bringing in renewables, when we talk about being ready for electric vehicles, when we talk about bringing an energy management expertise into the area, it's it's really meant to make sure that customers have the information that they're already asking for, and that they're having information from a somewhat neutral party, right. In some cases, we're not looking at pushing one way or another, but making sure that people are informed to make the best decisions, and know what the outcomes are. And I think we're uniquely positioned to do that. There's a lot of people that might sell renewables, and they help install solar panels. And we're not looking to replace any of those, those people like it takes all kinds to make these things, all kinds of components in the supply chain to make this come to reality. But I think there is a natural space for hydro Ottawa to be there to help inform customers on how to do this effectively, what this means to them, like adding solar panels to your rooftop has complications. And it also has implications for you as a homeowner. And I think it's important that people be informed as they're making those decisions to put two and two together so that they don't, later on, find out that, you know, use this example, they bought an Eevee. And they bring it home, and they have nowhere to plug it in. Because their condo Corporation isn't set up effectively. There's nowhere for them to do public charging systems, I think that we need to make sure that we're helping customers make those informed decisions, and how we can do that together. So things around, like you mentioned, cybersecurity, and energy management, one of our conversations, and we're getting in, we're playing a big role in that, like, I think if we would be naive to think that customers don't expect us to have some of the best cybersecurity programs in place we are, are the custodians of the network that makes sure that they have energy to run their lives and electricity to run their lives. And I mentioned at the beginning of this, that some people count on that to stay alive. So that is of utmost importance, and a certainty that we need to play a space in that. And then energy management, like who you turn to other than somebody is really accountable to make sure that energy comes to your house, to be able to provide that expertise and help you through that and guide you through that process.

Dan Seguin  38:19

Now, what are some community carbon reduction projects that hydro Ottawa has been involved in, that customers might not be aware of?

Julie Lupinacci  38:29

Yeah, so hydro Ottawa has been working with the city and a lot of customers around the Ottawa area to be able to help them bring some of the carbon reduction projects that they have to life and to reality. So one of the big ones that I think maybe will touch everybody in the city of Ottawa is streetlight conversions. So we converted them all the street lights to LEDs, so that provided a significant cost savings to the City of Ottawa with regards to their energy bill, but in most cases provided better lighting, to the city streets, and has an element of controls in those lights to be able to allow the city to turn them up or down depending right so there's some technology that's built into those city lights, and all done through cost savings to the to the city overall. So I think that that was a big one that folks may not know about. We have been working with the city on their electric buses and bringing that vision to fruition. Electric buses, although we're not in the bus business, we are in the business now to support getting electricity to those buses and to where they need it and planning where those bus resting stations are to recharge, making sure there's enough in electricity capacity going into the main headquarters where the buses park at night, do their maintenance, make sure that they get charged up for the routes and working to make sure that they have everything there at To add a Edie, affordable process for the city, right, making sure that we're looking at, at this model that we worked on with the city to make sure that hydro water was working and supporting everything up to that charger. And the city's buses are running the routes, but we're, you know, we're staying in our lanes with regards to core competency, but making sure that we're bringing that vision to reality. And we're doing that same thing with the airport. No, we're not in the flight business. But we are in the business of making sure that as airports, specifically the airport here in Ottawa, are looking at electrifying everything under the wing, making sure doing fuel switching even in their passenger terminals. So you know, look at lighting solutions all across, whether it's, you know, the parking garage or in the building, you know, working with the report on helping them get to their net zero commitments, and making sure that we have the expertise brought in. Sometimes it comes with, you know, understanding what different programs are out there and marrying those up. And we do that. And then the last one, I think we've been working with some customers like the airport, so the airport's not a standalone, customer story. We've got a number of those stories that we're working with customers to do. We're working with Ottawa police services to be able to help look at their fleets and how do you support moving, moving their fleets to electric vehicles and other other customers that are like that? And then looking and working with the City of Ottawa on public charging stations? Where would these be, you know, our new mayor, as part of his campaign talked about public charging stations talked about ebike charging stations, and we're working hand in hand with them to help bring those visions and those plans to reality that is not just to talk, but it is bringing those projects to life.

Dan Seguin  41:59

Okay, Julie, let's rewind and go back to the strategic plan. What are the key change drivers that are influencing hydro Ottawa is future planning.

Julie Lupinacci  42:10

So we've used a five-d framework in our strategic direction, because these are the drivers that are not just impacting our industry, but they're impacting everybody. And they're, they're things that are happening, and you'd have to understand what it is and then look at your own business and then how you support customers. So the customers need to be aware as well. So we're really looking at these five days. So the first one is decarbonisation. You know, I think we've had a lot of that conversation so far. It needs to be part of our programs, it needs to be part of our future design, it needs to be part of our discussions with customers. The second one is digitization. And this one has been around for a while, right, like people have been migrating to, to using electronics, like E bills, emails versus you know, getting your your bill in the mail, paying through through some type of paper pay service versus sending in a check, or coming in to drop off money at hydro. We haven't done that for a while. But those are pathways to this digitization. And I would say it's going further than that. We're looking at how to make sure that customers have access to their data through a digital output? How can they connect their systems to that to make some decisions for them? So digitization is a big one for us. Not just on the customer front? I would say how we're developing our systems as well. Decentralization is one of those third G's that people are looking at. And I always laugh because industries go through centralization, decentralization. It's kind of a little bit of a flux piece that happens. But we are in a decentralization component because they think the reality of an Ottawa is in the ecosystem that we have. It's a pretty vast city, like, you know, from a miles long miles wide component. It's vast. It's not as big as some of the service territories that you know, like Hydro Quebec takes care of the entire province. But it's vast enough that you would think why are we decentralizing? But there's the reality of things like the storm that bring it to light that you need some loops within the system that are centered around where people are living and making sure that we can have some redundancy in different areas. So we are looking at that. And what we do is diversification diversifying. Like we talked about overhead underground a lot this year, especially after the storms. That's one form of diversification. But there's also looking at how do you incorporate renewables? It's a different type of energy production. How do you incorporate solar in a different way in a very thoughtful way and I can be stressed enough because you can't just put solar across the entire city and think that that's going to work right, you need to be able to integrate those pieces, right? If you want that energy future, you have to integrate solar into the existing grid, and look at how we do this as a community based component. So diversification is definitely leading a lot of discussions here. And what we do, and the last one is demographics that the city is changing. You know, we used to be English, French only, we have different languages that are coming to be so that, you know, like, that's the basics of it. But also taking a look at the changing demographics of the workplace, the changing demographics of where people are working, and how people are working, like demographics is a little bit different. Right? There's, you know, there's a socio graphic component to that, or a psycho psychographic component that comes into that as well, that we're looking at how we speak to customers? How do we make sure that they have information? What are we making sure that we're doing when we plan work, right? Like we have to do maintenance on our system? How do we do that support, support our customers, so all five of those DS, really our part of how we evaluate the work of the projects that we get involved in?

Dan Seguin  46:18

What has been the impact of the pandemic on electricity customers, and how has that influenced your role, and also hydro Auto has relationship with its customers,

Julie Lupinacci  46:30

The pandemic has, I think, thrown a very different work life reality here. Ottawa, for the most part, did not see the unemployment rates as some of the other cities across Canada. So in some cases, we've been fortunate, but the impacts are still there. So for the utility, and I talked about it in the previous question a little bit, but for the utility, how we go about doing our work matters more. Now, I would say, you know, coming through the pandemic, it matters more, because when we used to plan work on our grid, we used to plan it during the day. So we would go into a community. And we would know that the bulk of the customers in that community were at work between nine and five, let's say or nine and three. And we could get a lot of work done without really impacting customers. And now, it's not like those homes have become daycares, not just during the pandemic, but as a, as a perpetual thing. Now, right, we've got hybrid work components, so you can't decide that this or you can't even hazard an educated guess that this community is going to be predominantly out between these hours on this day, like that just doesn't, that doesn't happen anymore. So working with customers and giving them more advanced notice, in some cases, more, making sure that they get this information in a timely manner so that they can plan around it the same way that we're planning is super critical. And I would say that, ultimately, the biggest change that we've seen with our customers is making sure that we can continue to do the work with the least impact to our customers. And I think that's why we talked about the battery loan program. That's why it's become such an important piece of the future that our customers will not be able to give it to everybody. But you know, at least it's a program that will kind of look at how we can evolve and be able to support our customers through those types.

Dan Seguin  48:41

Okay, Julie, we always end our interviews with some rapid fire questions, and we've got some for you. Are you ready?

Julie Lupinacci  48:50

I am. Okay, Julie,

Dan Seguin  48:52

What are you reading right now?

Julie Lupinacci  48:53

I'm actually reading two books right now. One is called Ed Mylett The Power of One More, which is a pretty inspirational story that was based on his father just doing one more thing. One more minute talking to a customer reaching out to one more customer. It's kind of a really cool dynamic when you pull it into a workspace, and the other one is Brene Brown's Atlas of the Heart. I'm reading that as part of our we had a lot of conversations about crisis, communication and emotion and Atlas of the heart was one of those recommendations. So I have taken her up on that.

Dan Seguin  49:27

Now, what would you name your boat? If you had one?

Julie Lupinacci  49:32

Yeah, I don't know if I thought this one 100% through but I think I would say Unstoppable. Maybe Unsinkable Boat.

Dan Seguin  49:43

Okay, let's move on to the next one. Who is someone that you admire?

Julie Lupinacci  49:46

That so many people to choose from? But here I'd say my mom, she's a powerhouse. She's mastered the balance of staying calm, and keeping calm even in the craziness of the chaos. She has that ability to fight kind of to find a path forward for people and during insanely stressful situations, so she like, reaches down and likes to pick people up gently, sometimes sometimes not so gently, and gives you a good kick in the butt, you know, to get you into overdrive when needed. So if I could, if I could garner some of that into who I am, I think I think that would be amazing.

Dan Seguin  50:21

Okay, what is the closest thing to real magic that you've witnessed?

Julie Lupinacci  50:27

Yeah, this is, this is a hard one for me to put into words. But let me see if I can take, again, the chaos of some of these weather events that we've seen, like I've witnessed our team go from full throttle heads down, like almost militant robotic work mode, trying to get the power back on. And they can stop in those tracks and become this completely empathetic supportive, human being to some of the most vulnerable people that they they encounter, whether it be somebody who they see is needing help to shovel their driveway because they're struggling or, you know, a child comes up to them with a with a bunch of cards to give to hydro auto, because they're their classmates made them in in class, and they want to give them to them. And they're right, coming up right to a workstation, like I see this switch happen on a dime. And in my opinion, it's so magical. So I guess in my opinion, that would be pure via pure magic moment.

Dan Seguin  51:28

Okay, next one here, what has been the biggest challenge to you personally, since the pandemic began?

Julie Lupinacci  51:35

Yeah, as a single parent, I think it's easy for me to say something like anytime the schools were doing virtual learning and trying to juggle, juggle all of you know, work. Being a teacher is the hardest job in the world. Especially in some of those, with with some of those kids that just can't sit still, which is, which is my son. But I would have to say the hardest part, for me, has been witnessing folks who are struggling, trying to get back on their feet, whether that be financially, but more so I would say struggling to get back on their feet mentally coming out of the pandemic. Okay,

Dan Seguin  52:13

moving on. We've all been watching a lot of Netflix and TV. What are your favorite movies or shows?

Julie Lupinacci  52:23

It's funny because I saw this. And I would say, yes, that's a true statement. But I haven't been watching a lot of Netflix and TV, but my family Friday Night Movie go twos, these last few weeks has been the Home Alone series. And I don't know why. Coming up to Christmas. I guess that's what it is. But home alone has been the movie. I think we're up to the third one or fourth one now at our Friday movie nights.

Dan Seguin  52:47

Lastly, what's exciting you about your industry, our industry right now?

Julie Lupinacci  52:53

Oh, geez, what's not exciting. We're I think we're in a pivotal moment and the energy industry, like a kind of table clearing moment when we're working across boundaries, like I'm talking about physical boundaries, cross fuel providers cross. The local distributor companies talking together across energy providers, you know, private, public energy providers have all kinds of different solutions out there. Everybody's at this table working to develop solutions. It's such an exciting time, because it's the egos in some cases get completely put outside and just really focused on the same goal on trying to get us to that smart, sustainable, affordable energy future. And to me, that is absolutely the most exciting part of our industry right now. Well, Julie,

Dan Seguin  53:41

we've reached the end of another episode of The thinkenergy podcast. If our listeners wanted to learn more about you and our organization, how could they connect?

Julie Lupinacci  53:54

So I am on LinkedIn. So you can find me Julie Lupinacci at LinkedIn, or you can connect right through our website. So if you send something through there, saying you want to talk to me, it'll find its way to me directly.

Dan Seguin  54:08

Again, Julie, thank you so much for joining me today. I hope you had a lot of fun.

Julie Lupinacci  54:12

I did.

Dan Seguin  54:14

Thanks for tuning in for another episode of The think energy podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review wherever you're listening. And to find out more about today's guests or previous episodes, visit thinkenergypodcast.com And I hope you'll join us again next time as we spark even more conversations about the energy of tomorrow.