In this episode we dig into the details (or lack thereof!) of 425 and 425 BCE. Good news for the plebeians is that when there’s not much going on in Rome, they get a chance to just live life a little!

Episode 136 – How the Plebeians Got Their Groove Back

What’s in a tribune?

What’s the deal with military tribunes with consular power? We consider the etymology of tribune (the Latin tribunus) to better understand this facet of the political structure. This also means tackling the big question of: who were the magistrates in this period of history and how much can we take from our later writers like Livy and Dionsysius of Halicarnassus?

Games, glorious games!

The time is ripe for Rome to hold games in honour of the gods. There’s no battle to be had and diplomacy in the local region seems to be taking a turn for peace. What better time to invite everyone over for some sport and festivities?

1024x566.jpg" alt="Painting by Jean-Léon Gérôme reimagining the Circus Maximus at it's height in the Roman imperial period with a chariot race taking place under a blue sky." class="wp-image-4605">

Jean-Léon Gérôme 1876. Chariot Race. This is an imagined scene of a Roman chariot race at the Circus Maximus at the height of Rome’s power (we’re not up to that point in Rome’s history in this episode!). The Circus itself is thought to be significantly old – dating back potentially as early as the kings.

Things to listen out for

• The horrifying lack of detail from the sources Dr G has to study
• Livy writing a history of peace rather than war
• Shocking revelations about Igor’s (our resident eagle) paycheck
• The return of the Claudii.

Our Players 425 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Aulus Sempronius L. f. A. n. Atratinus (Pat) – Cos 428b
• Lucius Quinctius L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus (Pat) (Broughton Cin. *3) – Cos 428b, military tribune with consular power 438
• Lucius Furius Sp. f. – n. Medullinus (Pat), Military tribune with consular power in 432
• Lucius Horatius M. f. M. n. Barbatus (Pat)

Our Players 424 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Appius Claudius Ap. f. Ap. n. Crassus (Pat)
• Spurius Nautius Sp. f. – n. Rutilus (Pat)
• Lucius Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) – previously cos. 437, 429; military tribune with consular power 433
• Sextus Julius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.81.1, 12.82.1
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.35.

• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Drogula, F. K. 2017. ‘Plebeian Tribune and the Government of Early Rome‘ Antichthon 51: 101-123

Sound Effects

Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music. Additional sound effects from BBC Beta.

1024x768.jpg" alt="Description from Wikimedia Commons: "This vase belongs to a distinctive type given as a prize to the winner of the chariot race in the ancient games held at Athens during the yearly festival known as the Panathenaia. The festival honoured Athena, the city's patron deity. The vase would have been one of 140, each containing 40 litres of olive oil, given to the winner. Chariot racing was the most popular spectator sport in ancient times. Up to 40 chariots could compete in a race and crashes were common. The two turning posts at either end of the oblong course were the most dangerous parts of the track. The painter of this vase has been highly successful in creating the illusion of speed as the chariot careers along. A quadriga chariot drawn by four horses is shown, the hair and tunic of the charioteer are blown back, and the manes and tails of the horses fly in the rush of air. The chariot is coming up to a post which may represent the turn or the finish of the race. Both moments would be climaxes. While the sport for which the prize was given was shown on one side of these vessels, Athena herself was usually shown on the other side. On this one she wears a high-crested helmet, an elaborately decorated chiton (tunic), and her characteristic aegis, a snake-fringed poncho worn around her neck."" class="wp-image-4606">

Greek black figure vase of a charioteer with four horses. This Athenian vase is obviously not a Roman artefact, but it’s thought to date to c. 410-400 BCE which is very close to the period we explore in this episode. Gathering together for games and chariot racing was common across the Mediterranean. The Roman were likely inspired or influenced by ideas for games and races from the Greeks and the Etruscans.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:20We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I’m Dr. Rad and this intelligent, ravishing creature next to me is

Dr G 1:06Dr. G. Yay, I feel very complimented. Is it my sequined dinosaur t shirt?

Dr Rad 1:12I mean, if that doesn’t scream, intelligent and ravishing, I don’t know what

Dr G 1:16Ah, you’re so kind!

Dr Rad 1:19So I’m thrilled to be back that back again, in the studio, talking about Ancient Rome with you.

Dr G 1:26Yeah we’ve been exploring Ancient Rome from the foundation of the city. And we are well into what is the early republic at this point, it’s a roundabout 425

Dr Rad 1:38It is

Dr G 1:38BCE

Dr Rad 1:39I feel like we’ve really raced ahead suddenly, like for a while, it was just like moving through slow setting cement. So I didn’t feel like we could get out of the middle of the fifth century BCE. And here we are, we are getting so close to a new century.

Dr G 1:55Things are speeding up. And I think we have to thank our missing source material,

Dr Rad 2:00I was gonna say, probably not a good thing. It’s the fact that everything seems to be a little bit blancker.

Dr G 2:07There are a lot of fragments. But before we get into 425, and maybe what we could possibly know about it, let’s do a little bit of a recap of where we’re up to. And just think a little bit about 426. And where the land lay at that point.

Dr Rad 2:23Well, it’s a difficult one, because to give a recap of 426, Dr G, is but to give a recap of a 437 as well.

Dr G 2:33It’s a tough time in our Roman source material. And it’s centered around this guy, all this Cornelius Cossus, who is most famous in all of Roman history for being one of the three Roman generals to achieve taking the spoila optima.

Dr Rad 2:50I feel like that should have been a sign to them that they were maybe making it too high.

Dr G 2:57All of Rome, only three men, well, maybe. But it’s really challenging because it has to be somebody who is in the military in a significant position, taking down the enemy leader directly. So it’s a commander taking out a commander, basically in single combat in amongst a whole other battle going on around them.

Dr Rad 3:20And it makes it even more difficult because technically, he may not be that person, because he doesn’t seem to matter, potentially, when he did this.

Dr G 3:30Awkward awkward, like 426 is one of the years. He also could have done it in 428 when he was actual consul that would make narrative sense to me. Yeah. And that’s the that’s the date I would hone in on. But it could also have been as early as you say 437 – 438 as well. Yeah, so everything’s a little bit hazy.

Dr Rad 3:49But the bigger context for who all is Cossus. Sorry. Aulus Cornelius Cossus was fighting is Veii.

Dr G 3:57Yes. Yeah. He’s fighting the Etruscans. Yeah. And Rome at this point in time, the big picture is that Rome is sort of finding its way with its neighbors, like, how does it sit within the broader Italian landscape? Where do they do their strength lies? Who are their allies? Who are they against, and they’re now butting up really closely against the Etruscans. And the city of Veii is the southern most Etruscan city we know of, and it is a mere 15 or 20 kilometers from Rome itself. And, you know, a good day’s march – hard and fast – and you’ll get there and you’ll be ready to fight them by the next breakfast.

Dr Rad 4:34Absolutely. And it also that conflict was they seem to be pivoting on the question of Fidenae, I think in whatever you’re talking about. But in this past decade, it seems to be a real sore spot that this colony of Fidenae really wants to be sided with the Etruscans and every time they decide they’re going to make the switch to room conflict ensues.

Dr G 5:00Yeah, it’s a tragic time Rome has convinced that Fidenae is theirs

Dr Rad 5:04Yup

Dr G 5:04And Fidenae is apparently a Roman colony from way back, depending on how you look at it. And Fidenae has defected they’ve thrown their lot in with the Etruscans. And Rome is less than pleased.

Dr Rad 5:17Absolutely, they’re not gonna take that. So as a result, we had a lot of military action in 426 BCE, rightly or wrongly, this is how it’s come across to us with the Romans after having a difficult start pulling through Yeah,

Dr G 5:35Whoo.

Dr Rad 5:39Yeah, so that’s kind of weird. Sarcasm may not be detected. So that’s kind of where I think we ended up at the end 426, which is actually refreshing. Because the early 420s BC were a little dull. I’m not gonna lie.

Dr G 6:01They were but as as 426 concludes, it feels like we’ve maybe reached the conclusion of a certain level of the combat because if the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius has not died up until now. We think he must be dead by this point in time. Yeah. So that brings us to

Dr Rad 6:23The extended deadline. Sorry, that brings us to

Dr G 6:29425 BCE.

Welcome one and all. Roll up, roll up for 425 BCE.

Dr Rad 7:18Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Dr G 7:22Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.

Dr Rad 7:25Party on, Livy is not!

Dr G 7:28The Fasti Capitolini are missing.

Dr Rad 7:31Oh, really?

Dr G 7:32They are. They’ve been missing for a little while now. And that?

Dr Rad 7:34Well, you kept that quiet.

Dr G 7:37I mean, there’s there was no point to mention them. So this year, I have four military tribunes with consular power.

Dr Rad 7:44Now, I would love for you to tell me their names, Dr G. But before you do that, I would like to pause because I was talking with a learned gentleman the other day, who asked me to explain where the title of tribune actually comes from.

Dr G 8:03And it’s a good question because it does have “tri-” in it. So a group of three, but we can already see with the plebeian tribunes that, maybe it depends.

Dr Rad 8:13Sure. And I think it also has this link to the fact that Rome, that having at least according to their own history, Rome was organized into tribes. And so “tribune” was often a title given to someone who was the leader of some sort of group that had something to do with the tribal organization. And if we think about what you were saying in terms of the number and that idea of where does the word tribune comes from? Romulus originally divided the population of Rome up into three tribes, correct?

Dr G 8:42Yes, correct. Yes.

Dr Rad 8:44And so this is a title that a lot of people get in some form or another. So for example, obviously, we’ve got the tribune of the plebs. Now, we don’t think that the tribune of the plebs have a particularly strong connection to the tribal structure to the ancient tribe. Yeah, no, we don’t think so. But it makes sense, obviously, that they are presiding over a body where people are organized, it is a tribal assembly, essentially, that they presiding over as well. So there’s a connection there. It’s also just a say a word that the Romans start to use for these people who are leading some sort of tribal group. And I’d say it’s also something that therefore, the more they get into the habit of using that for these people, the more that the practice of using that term, obviously, continues on. And then obviously, when we’ve got military tribunes and military tribunes refer to leaders, obviously, of a particular army group. Again, probably very early on in Rome’s history, there was probably some sort of tribal organization to the group that they were commanding, but eventually it doesn’t have anything to do with that, but the title stays.

Dr G 9:49Yes, yeah, the meaning changes, but the would remain where it lives on.

Dr Rad 9:53And so obviously military tribunes with consular power is, you know, apparently the Romans putting this idea of well plebeians they don’t have the auspicium to be, you know, they can’t be a consul like the patricians can, we have the auspicium we you know monopolizing all the auspicium that’s out there, so you can’t hold that position and therefore they give it they’ve used this position this military tribunes and given it the you know the authority or the power of the consul without giving it the actual consulship. So yeah, it’s a very fine line isn’t so complicated try and explain.

And yet for all of the explanations that are put forward for the idea that these military tribunes with consular power should open up the position to people who aren’t necessarily patrician, what we tend to find is that they’re largely patrician.

Yes. And see, I was really it’s really interesting article the other day, which puts forward this argument that at this point in Rome’s history, this idea of consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it’s just nearly allies, because this person was saying that it seems as though Rome, obviously, is, as we’ve been talking about as much of the stuff that we’ve been talking about, I suppose, but taking it a little bit further, that Rome has this narrative that they got rid of the kings, and then they seamlessly transitioned into this Republican system, which is suspiciously similar to the late Republic.

Dr G 11:33Yeah

Dr Rad 11:33Yeah. And that, in this in this particular context, in early Rome, this person has suggested that actually, there are no senior magistrates, so consuls, praetors, military tribunes with consular power, it doesn’t exist at this point in time. It’s something that exists a bit later, probably about if we’re at 425 right now, probably, what about 80 years, that’s when we start to see the appearance of these sorts of things. And that really, we’ve just got patricians, which is much what we’ve seen monopolizing power. So because they are wealthy, they have resources, they have clients, they’ve been able to monopolize power in the countryside. And if we look at the names that the tribes have been given out in the countryside, like outside of the pomerium, outside of the city of Rome itself, they kind of reflect the power that these people hold. So like they might be named after a particular gentes. So like, Aemelia, or whatever. And then if we look at the tribes within the city, that’s not the case. It’s the tribal names are more reflective of like, where you live, you know, it’s like the Palatina or something like,

Dr G 12:40Yeah, look, I think it’s pretty fair to take the position that the way that state structures form is slow. And it’s a process. And things are not necessarily set in structures that make sense. And structures have to alter and change.

Dr Rad 13:01Yup

Dr G 13:02And adapt to situations. And part of the challenge for historians is that there is very few ways for us to get closer to what actually may have happened in the past than we already are.

Dr Rad 13:18Yeah, for sure.

Dr G 13:19And so these written sources that we’re relying on, whether it’s the fasti, whether it’s Dionysius or Livy, these people are doing the best they can, I like to give them the benefit of the doubt – doing the best they can with the information that they have at hand. But the way that information is kept and conveyed over time is problematic. Yeah. And it’s not rigorous in the same way like we live in this internet age where we have an overabundance, if you like of information, yeah, that doesn’t mean that it’s easy to access the information that is actually useful, and, and good and true. Yeah. And we know that truth is a multiplicity, depending on your subjectivity. So if we take all of those ideas that we understand into account, the complexity of what’s at play here is far beyond what we’re going to be able to discern from the source material. Yeah. And there’s lots of things that we don’t know. So the best that we can say in this sort of case is that, yes, you know, something like the name “tribune” has a couple of different sort of etymological connections that it could draw upon to make it make sense. But at the same time, it’s clearly in use, and when language is in use, meanings change and adapt to the necessity of the moment.

Dr Rad 14:33Absolutely.

Dr G 14:34Not holding true to the etymology of how it originally came about.

Dr Rad 14:39Yeah. And I think this is the thing I as you say, I don’t believe I mean, I like to say “Liza Minnelli lies”, but I don’t think that as you say that they’re totally making this up, doesn’t mean that these people that we’re talking about didn’t exist. It doesn’t mean that the actions they took weren’t taken, the events didn’t happen and that sort of thing. I think it’s kind of more the maybe the top titles that people held and that sort of thing, or the idea that maybe that the state was quite so formalized, which is something that we have been talking about for a really long time in this early Republican period. And I kind of I must admit, I was kind of convinced by the idea that when you look at the, even in the, in the periods where we’re a bit more convinced of the fact that like the consulship, or the apprenticeship or whatever the title was given did exist, the kinds of things that those people would do are military. This idea that you might have a division of power between civilian and military positions, and therefore, these people that we’re talking about, like, there’s no doubt that there were people out there wielding military power. Definitely the patricians held that.

Dr G 15:45I mean, it seems likely.

Dr Rad 15:46It seems very likely. I mean, that makes total sense. And therefore this idea that, you know, these guys are the ones commanding the armies makes 100% sense. It’s a good question, I suppose is, do they actually hold this formalized position? And are they quite as dominant inside the city as the sources sometimes make it sound? Because what this article was arguing was more the fact that it was probably more like minor officials who are doing the sort of day to day governance kind of stuff. So the people who are you know, like the neighborhood leaders, I think they’re called like the things like the curio maximus or something like

Dr G 16:24Oh, yeah, I love a good curio maximus.

Dr Rad 16:27Yeah. So like, like neighborhood leaders and and people who hold slightly more localized positions, who are keeping things running on the inside of the city, because of course. Rome does have this really interesting ban on military power inside the pomerium. You know, the fact that the fact that military assemblies that generals, soldiers, they all have to say outside of the pomerium, and it means that whilst the patricians might be able to throw their weight around in terms of military matters, they need a different outlet for that inside the city. And that comes back to what we’ve talked about before in terms of them potentially dominating the priesthood. And therefore being able to keep control over things like war, and judicial matters through there, kind of just cutting of the knowledge around how things actually work. And so a lot of the stuff that we’ve said makes sense. It’s just, it just maybe you take away the sort of official titles.

Oh yeah, we’ve got no guarantees on titles around here.

But I just I just thought that was interesting, because it’s so hit the mark with so many of the things that we’ve been talking about, in terms of the fact that like, these ideas, and these structures probably come in later, but you can still see the events happening. And, you know, the patricians and plebeians potentially having issues of tension around who has power and the tribune of the plebs coming out of that, in terms of being able to provide protection, particularly the tribune of the plebs being connected to the city of Rome, where the patricians don’t have that military power. It just, it was just really interesting to sort of see that all coming together. In one article, which I was like, Yeah, this makes this makes sense to me.

Dr G 18:12Ah look, and I think this sort of thing is really important, because we’re not sure how, how the Roman state really develops, like, you know, they they tell this history about themselves? Yeah. And that’s fine. And we’re going through it and sort of, you know, delving into it as we go along. But we’re not sure about consuls at this point in time. We’re not sure about tribunes at this point in time, we’re not sure about the social division between the petitions and the plebeians as even being a plausible thing at this time. And so we’re dealing with a murky history of Rome, where Rome, leader Romans are trying to interpret and understand themselves by sort of like retrojecting, like what would be the previous steps? Yeah. What would make sense for this thing to exist now? And they sort of they see it as a gradual sort of process. But it’s open to interpretation.

Dr Rad 19:12I think, I think the base story 100% make sense, which is you’ve got powerful, a powerful aristocracy, which is able to assert itself and remain dominant for some time once you no longer have a king. Yeah, because there’s no, there’s no one keeping them in check anymore. And then you have the people reacting against abuses of power and corruption. And that’s where you get the birth of something like the tribune of the plebs. And luckily for them, the tribunes of the plebs. Well, luckily, I mean, that’s not a coincidence, but with the development of the tribune of the plebs developing that power of or that oath being taken to protect them physically, you know, so making them in violet It offers them a level of protection, particularly because they are based in the city.

Dr G 20:06You might not be able to have a sword in the city, but nobody can stop you getting beaten up unless we say so.

Dr Rad 20:11Yeah exactly. But that idea of there being protection and the fact that the Romans, who are the elite, they can’t just bring their soldiers in and kill these guys. I mean, if you think about this article, make the point. That’s really annoying, because I want this guy. Well, they’re making the point of like, how easily did they get rid of Spurius Maelius? Well, pretty easily, pretty much he wasn’t attributing but I think they broke the state to do it. Well, sure. But like, at the end of the day, they got rid of him pretty easily. And he wasn’t a tribune, he was just like a guy that that was making trouble for them. Why wouldn’t they do that with the tribune unless they are respecting this?

Dr G 20:46Yeah, but we also don’t know when tribunes becomes inviolable,

Dr Rad 20:49I know

Dr G 20:50And we also don’t really know when the pomerium becomes the be all and end all of entering or not with a sword.

Dr Rad 20:56No, but it just it just made. It just made sense to me in the sense of like, the fact that there are more tribunes, it seems than there are, say consuls, like if we’re going by the official

Dr G 21:06Oh, yeah.

Dr Rad 21:07Two consuls.

Dr G 21:07And I think part of this and we will get on to those military tribunes. I’m not going to leave you hanging

Dr Rad 21:13Pause for the longest digression known to man. Hi Herodotus!

Dr G 21:17Hello, hello. We’ll come back to those guys in a sec. But the thing with the military tribunes with consular power, is that it is clear that even from the like the long distance of looking back over like 300-400 years of history, yeah, that people in the late Republic understood Rome as not being an all powerful entity right off the bat, for sure. It is a city of struggle. Yeah. And it is not just a struggle, which results in having to exile kings and getting rid of the whole idea altogether. It’s a struggle to build a workable idea of how a state looks if it’s not run by one person.

Dr Rad 21:59Yeah, absolutely.

Dr G 22:00They really struggling to figure out how to do it. And they’re being pressed at this point in time from all sides. Everybody around them wants nothing to do with them. It is a constant jostling. And it seems like every city state, essentially because you could think of them as sort of isolated states, that they’re all struggling for their and jostling for their position in central Italy right now. And Rome is just another city trying to do its best.

Dr Rad 22:28Oh, yeah, absolutely. And that’s what’s I mean, this, this kind of made sense to me. And also, I mean, also the idea that Rome will continue to be struggling to assert itself for quite some time. And the idea that consuls are a good idea that consuls and praetors don’t really develop a strong connection to like civil administration and civil governance until quite some time later, because they’re still dealing with all his military stuff. Like that’s still their main point of existence and still there.

Dr G 23:02Yeah, you gotta have that imperium. You know what I’m saying? You gotta have it.

Dr Rad 23:05Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I was like, Yeah, you know that that is true. And the fact that tribune of the plebs obviously become, you know, so powerful, but again, over time,

Dr G 23:16Yeah, very much over time, and we see them struggling here.

Dr Rad 23:22Digression done, thank you for indulging me

Dr G 23:24It was a pleasure. Always always interesting. So military tribunes with consular power it’s 425 BCE. Yeah. Who have we got riding that wagon? Well, Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.

Dr Rad 23:39A name I’ve heard before

Dr G 23:40Yes, you might remember him as being part of the suffect consulship in 428. Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 23:51Another name is very familiar, but not the guy that you’re thinking of.

Dr G 23:54Also suffect consul 428. Lucius Furius. Medullinus, military tribune with consular power in 432. And Lucius Horatius Barbatus nobody’s ever heard of him before.

Dr Rad 24:13But we have heard the name Horatii

Dr G 24:16We have, but it’s it’s interesting to me that we’ve got three out of our four military tributes people who have either previously held the consulship or the military tribunate with consular power. Yeah, previously true. So which makes me think Rome is in dire straits this year, because they’ve only picked really experienced dudes to come back into the situation. interesting take on it. Yeah, except for Barbartus, the bready one who you know might be somebody’s protege.

Dr Rad 24:45Okay, well get ready to be blown away, Dr. G, by what am I about to tell you based on Livy’s account?

Dr G 24:50Oh, yeah.

Dr Rad 24:51Are you ready for it?

Dr G 24:51I am.

Dr Rad 24:52Can you handle it?

Dr G 24:52I don’t know.

Dr Rad 24:54Well, let’s let’s see. Alright, so 425. Livy tells me that Veii was granted a truce that was supposed to last for 20 years. And the Aequians were granted a truce of three years now. They had wanted more. But that is all there we’re going to get from Rome. And that’s it.

Dr G 25:17That’s it?

Dr Rad 25:18That’s it. Explicitly he says there were no foreign problems and no domestic problems. That is it.

Dr G 25:25Wow. All of that experience in the military tribunate and for what?

Dr Rad 25:30Well, this is why I was curious. I was like,

Dr G 25:35Just you wait,

Dr Rad 25:37Do they need all this experience? I don’t know that they do.

Dr G 25:41I mean, maybe I mean, I understand that, you know, the war with Fidenae has been concluded because you know, they they shoved a whole bunch of the troublemakers into Ostia, we populated Fidenae with some Romans, we like you to behave yourselves now.

Dr Rad 25:54Yeah. And then there was slaughter, so much slaughter.

Dr G 25:58But I didn’t realize that the situation with Veii was coming about. So I did a bit of a timeline. A recap. Oh, okay. Yeah, cuz I’ve got nothing to talk about. I’ve no source material.

Dr Rad 26:08Go for it.

Dr G 26:08I mean, I’ve got Diodorus Siculus, who, you know, questionable, and

Dr Rad 26:11You may as well have no sources.

Dr G 26:13Oh, I like that man, but he’s very focused on the Peloponnesian War. But to just do a bit of a backstory and Fidenae. And what’s been going on in 438, Fidenae defects from Rome. That is the crucial moment. And apparently this is on the advice of the king of a Lars Tolumnius. Like, wow, you know, I saw… I saw this situation and I think you should defect. And it’s at that point that Fidenae follows what appears to be a trust and advice and slaughters the Roman ambassadors.

Dr Rad 26:45Yeah. Who could forget? Who could forget the headless men.

Dr G 26:48The statue still stands. Yeah. When Dionysius and Livy are writing, yeah. 437: There is there is war, war begins. Rome is not having anything to do with this. And depending on which source you read, and where you are in the timeline, this is exactly when Cossus killed Lars Tolumnius and deals with that situation.

Dr Rad 27:07Excellent.

Dr G 27:08We think that might be not true. 435 – we have the dictator Quintus Servilius, who captures Fidenae by tunneling under the Citadel. Yep, thrilling stuff.

Dr Rad 27:20I did like that. That was strategy. You know, that was real strategy.

Dr G 27:23One year, one tunnel later. And it doesn’t last though. So in 434, we’ve got Mamercus Aemelius appointed dictator, because of the threat from Veii. And this is, you know, the tension between the Fidenae and the Veii situation. All connected.

Dr Rad 27:43It fizzles out ,right?

Dr G 27:44There. It is a bit of a fizzer.

Dr Rad 27:45Yeah.

Dr G 27:46428: Cornelius Cossus consul. Yep. The Veii people are raiding Roman territory. I mean, they’ve got lots of ways of saying.

Dr Rad 27:57It just sounds funny.

Dr G 27:59The people of Veii. And Rome dispatches a triumviral commission to investigate Fidenae’s participation in the raids. led by Veii. 427: yeah, Rome sends out the fetiales to demand redress from Veii,

Dr Rad 28:18Ah who could forget?

Dr G 28:20And then declares war, because they do not get redress

Dr Rad 28:23Jupiter as my witness

Dr G 28:25426: Cossus and three other military tribunes, Mamercus Aemelius, dictator for the third time; Cossus is master of the horse. It’s all happening. They defeat Fidenae and Veii. Yeah, so that’s like the previous year. And now it ends with a truce. And now it’s truce time.

Dr Rad 28:43Really long truce. 20 years?

Dr G 28:46Well, I mean, at least a 10. And a bit.

Dr Rad 28:49No, no, the truce is 20.

Dr G 28:51Oh, it’s much longer than the conflict.

Dr Rad 28:53That’s what I mean!

Dr G 28:55We’ll see if it lasts. Yeah, yeah. So apparently, there’s three surviving monuments in Rome to this conflict with Fidenae. So we do think it has some historical basis beyond…

Dr Rad 29:05The question is, did it last over this length of time? Or is it something that just happened at one of these points in time? And the Romans are confused?

Dr G 29:16I think it would make sense for it to be a prolonged conflict.

Dr Rad 29:19But this length, this length, or in this order, or in this order?

Dr G 29:23Well, I don’t know if Rome is a capable military force right now. I mean, they want to be but you know, sometimes it doesn’t work out.

Dr Rad 29:29They think that’s why they get so annoyed when they don’t do well like last episode.

Dr G 29:33So there’s the statue commemorating the four Roman ambassadors who

Dr Rad 29:38Possibly headless, not sure.

Dr G 29:41Yeah, we’d have to find the statue. Yeah, and then be like, Oh, no, that heedlessness is a deliberate artistic choice. We’ve got the spoila optima won by Cossus, which is attested in the time of Augustus. He says

Dr Rad 29:53By Augustus himself

Dr G 29:54He says he’s seen it so I wouldn’t want to disbelieve Augustus because risk of death is high.

Dr Rad 29:59God knows he never lies.

Dr G 30:02Don’t be like that about my favorite. There is a golden crown that is also apparently dedicated in the Capitoline temple.

Dr Rad 30:09Well, that’s right, because the dictator was made to dedicate it, apparently in 437.

Dr G 30:14Yeah. So all of these physical objects that attest to oh, look, the history,

Dr Rad 30:19I have no doubt there was conflict with Veii. But it’s just a question of, like, as I say, like did it all happen when they’re saying how they’re saying.

Dr G 30:27Yeah, well, I mean, who can say but that’s all I’ve got for this year.

Dr Rad 30:30Fair enough. All right. Let me take you on to 424 then.

Neil – History Hound 30:40Hello to listeners of the Partial Historians, and thank you to the Partial Historians. My name is Neil and I’m the host creator and pretty much everything of the Ancient History Hound Podcast. I’m all about ancient history, and this includes ancient Greece, Rome and other cultures from antiquity. I cover a wide range of topics. I’m sure there’s something for you, but why not find out for yourself? Ancient History Hound is probably on the platform you’re using right now. So come and find me and have a scroll through the episodes. I reckon there’s something there for you. And it’d be great to have you join me.

Dr Rad 31:19In 424, we once again have military tribunes with consular power. So who have we got Dr. G?

Dr G 31:27We have Appius Claudius Crassus. Yes, Appius Claudius returns. This is the son of the infamous decemvir. Yeah, this family well, they don’t know when to quit.

Dr Rad 31:41I knew it wasn’t the decemvir.

Dr G 31:43No he’s done.

Dr Rad 31:44He died shady circumstances.

Dr G 31:46But his son was allowed to survive and thus the line of Claudii is perpetuated.

Dr Rad 31:53Look, I’ll only be okay with that because eventually it’ll give me my favorite topic to study: The Julio-Claudius

Dr G 32:00Tiberius.

Dr Rad 32:02There’s a lot more to the Claudians than just Tiberius. Livia, huh? She marries into it but whatever.

Dr G 32:11Spurius Nautious Rutilus, a patrician,

Dr Rad 32:15Yep.

Dr G 32:15Lucius Sergius Fidenas,

Dr Rad 32:15Ah the hero Fidenae.

Dr G 32:19Yeah. Previously consul in 437 and 429, military tribune with consular power in 433 – fancy. All right. And Sextus Julius Iullus.

Dr Rad 32:35Still think that name should not be allowed to exist. Just sounds all shades of wrong.

Dr G 32:40Iullus?

Dr Rad 32:40Yeah. No just like the the Julius Iullus.

Dr G 32:44Ah, yeah, it doesn’t. Oh, it doesn’t flow off the tongue.

Dr Rad 32:47To be honest, it sounds like I’m making fun of him. And I’m not.

Dr G 32:51It’s his name.

Dr Rad 32:52Yeah. All right. Well, you’ll be relieved to hear I do have a little bit more detail from Livy in this year.

Dr G 32:58Oh, that’s exciting. So I mean, Dionysus is predictably missing.

Dr Rad 33:02Okay. Yeah, I was prepared for that this time.

Dr G 33:05As is the fasti Capitolini. I have some Diodorus Siculus.

Dr Rad 33:09Okay. Tell me what it is. I’ll tell you what’s wrong.

Dr G 33:13Well, there’s some seems to be some question mark over the praenomen of Appius Claudius. Is it Appius? Or is it Titus? Hmm. Diadorus, says Titus. And as we know, Diodorus is often wrong.

Dr Rad 33:33Look, if I know anything about the Romans is that they are very unimaginative within names.

Dr G 33:39This is true. So I mean, time is is a possibility. It’s within the remit of like well known Roman praenomens. But Appius Claudius makes sense as if he is the eldest son of Appius Claudius, the decemvir.

Dr Rad 33:53Exactly.

Dr G 33:54Yes. You always just call your kid your name, and hope for the best.

Dr Rad 33:58And if we know anything about Appius Claudius the decemvir, it is that he is an egomaniac. So I think

Dr G 34:07Maybe all of his sons are called Appius Claudius.

Dr Rad 34:10I wouldn’t put it past him, Dr G.

Dr G 34:11Appius Claudius Secondo?

Dr Rad 34:14Yeah, I think it makes sense. The name would be Appius.

Dr G 34:19And that’s pretty much it. Diodorus Siculus does an alright, job on a couple of other names. Okay, and also gets another one slightly wrong, so it doesn’t really merit going into it.

Dr Rad 34:31All right. Okay. Well, 424 begins with Livy telling me that once again, there are no issues within the city of Rome and no walls to be fought outside of the city. Which makes me wonder, Dr. G, is Rome losing its edge?

Dr G 34:50Or is Dionysius not writing about things he’s not missing? It’s just that nothing happens. So he doesn’t say anything.

Dr Rad 34:56You know what? That’s actually a very intelligent suggestion.

Dr G 35:01Okay, wait a minute, I have a new topic I could write about

Dr Rad 35:04You do. Alright, so the only thing that’s really happening is a nice thing. It just goes to show how little this happens. I feel really uncomfortable talking about this because it’s just so rare that we record something nice. History recording only the bad stuff since the BCEs.

Dr G 35:23I’m really intrigued, what nice thing has been recorded?

Dr Rad 35:26There are some games happening. Dr. G.

Dr G 35:28Oh, well, they’re not very nice once you delve into them. I mean…

Dr Rad 35:32Well, I mean, for the Romans they’re nice.

Dr G 35:34I mean, yeah, but it’s like killing animals. It’s not my cup of tea watching people die.

Dr Rad 35:41At this point in time, at this point in time, gladiators another thing? I don’t think

Dr G 35:47No, no. But the what kind of games are they playing?

Dr Rad 35:51Well, he hasn’t given me an itemized list. There’s no ferris wheel if that’s what you’re wondering. Yeah. So basically,

Dr G 35:58There’s a boat show on the Tiber.

Dr Rad 36:00It’s a fulfillment of a promise, Dr G. There had previously been games vowed during the war and the military tribunes are just fulfilling that promise. So lots of neighboring people from the area are included. Okay. They’ve gotten over the whole, you know, Sabine abduction thing.

Dr G 36:20It sounds to me like it’s going to have some chariot racing. That would make sense.

Dr Rad 36:24yeah. And look, the Romans are determined to go all out. They want to be the hosts with the most.

Dr G 36:29I said that last time, and we all saw what happened to the Sabine women…

Dr Rad 36:33But this time, they really mean it. They’re really laying it on thick. They want to be the most courteous game givers in the whole of their little limited area.

Dr G 36:42Everybody come?

Dr Rad 36:43Yeah. Now, I’m going to say the T word. It’s time to talk about some tribunes.

Dr G 36:49Oh, dear.

Dr Rad 36:50Yeah. That’s right. So plebeian tribunes, they decide games. Perfect time to cause trouble.

Dr G 36:58Something does happen in this year

Dr Rad 37:00Well Livy says it starts out that way, which makes sense, because it’s continuation from the previous year, which was really boring.

Dr G 37:06Fair enough. Fair enough. Okay. All right. I’ll strap myself back in again.

Dr Rad 37:09And maybe the tribunes are also thinking the same thing I am, which is that Rome is losing its edge. You gotta like shake things up a little bit. We’re gonna cause some chaos. Yeah. All right. So they start making some speeches, which are clearly designed to rile people up. Okay. They’re saying they’re really angry with the people of Rome, because it seems like they adore the men that the attributes of the plebs themselves despise. And I presume that they’re meaning the patricians? Yeah, it would make sense.

Dr G 37:43Yes. I hate those guys.

Dr Rad 37:45Exactly. And they’re like, people are not rising up against these aristocrats.

Dr G 37:52But I love a good chariot race. Can I do this revolution later?

Dr Rad 37:56No, we can’t. Shut up, Timmy. They’re basically saying, Why aren’t you guys seizing opportunities? You aren’t running for military tribune with the consular power. What is going on? Like you’re allowed to, you’re allowed to What? What? They’re losing their mind.

Dr G 38:20It looks like a tough job. You know, I’ve got I got this family to feed and this farm situation of I can’t spend a year away from the harvest. You know, it’s going to be no man. No.

Dr Rad 38:33So the tribunes point out that look, if this is the way that you’re going to behave, then you have no right to complain anymore, that people aren’t working hard on your behalf to try and make your lives a little bit better.

Dr G 38:49That’s it. We got to get together and protest. I definitely want to keep complaining. Yeah,

Dr Rad 38:53they’re like, look, we don’t like being tribune of the plebs is a great gig. You ungrateful plebeians. It’s friggin hard work. And it’s super dangerous. And for what? What am I doing this for? There’s no reward for being tribune of the plebs. Always we get is patricians hating us and targeting us. And that’s hardly a reward if you guys aren’t even going to use the rights that we have worked so hard to procure for you.

Dr G 39:29Wow. I mean, it does sound like Livy is making the tribunate sound like a pretty lame place to be.

Dr Rad 39:36Exactly. And this is where the article I was talking about comes in again, because it points out that if we actually think that maybe there were no official senior magistracies like consul or preator or military tribute with consular power, then potentially tribune of the plebs was actually a relatively influential position, but, as you have heard, later we don’t really know what. But it’s certainly different to the other major cities which will develop in that they have very clear guidelines about this is the power that you have to achieve these goals.

Dr G 40:16Yeah.

Dr Rad 40:16And that’s your area. tribune of the plebs is very much more flexible. And it really is about the fact that the people seem to have originally taken this oath that they are going to protect you.

Dr G 40:25Yeah, we want some representation. And it’s really shaped by the people in the role. So really, if these tribune of the plebs are a little bit upset about how that is going for them, I suggest they do something.

Dr Rad 40:25Well, and this is a thing. This is potentially how the tribune of the plebs becomes more powerful, because the more that they have, the more that they can sort of play fast and loose with the fact that they can’t be killed. Technically, I mean, like they can, obviously, but

Dr G 40:53I’m immortal.

Dr Rad 41:00Technically, obviously, unless somebody wants to get themselves into a whole lot of trouble, they can’t be killed. And they only hang out in the city. So protection stance. Force field activate: the pomerium is up.

Dr G 41:14I don’t want to get into a religious do-do so. I’m gonna let you live.

Dr Rad 41:18Yeah. So the more that they can exploit that, the more that they can push their position into interesting developments, which might explain why they eventually get veto power and not just veto power over like each other, but like, veto power. I do love this. Actually, this is not for much later, but I just have to say it now. I’ll say it again later. I didn’t realize that when tribunes were first allowed to attend Senate meetings so that they could use their veto power. They initially weren’t allowed to actually be in the room. They had to sit outside and shout “Veto!”.

Dr G 41:54Yeah, like those moments where like, you have Agrippina behind a curtain? Yeah. Really. Like I’m listening. I’m listening.

Dr Rad 42:00But even more hilarious that they’re actually like, everyone knows they’re there. Yeah.

Dr G 42:03They’re expecting them to stand outside and yell in “veto!”.

Dr Rad 42:08We’re not going to do that

Dr G 42:08Stop that!

Dr Rad 42:09Stop that right now. Yeah. So anyway, that was just that was a total another tangent. But it is interesting to think about the fact that potentially these people, you know, well, this makes sense. And again, it’s just like that classic thing that they set up here of these senior magistrates, who apparently so important for legislation and that kind of stuff. And like, are they? Are they the people doing this? I don’t know. But anyway, anywho. So they say, Look, guys, it is time, it is time to see how the state will fare if a poor ban actually hold a magistracy for GOD’S SAKE like, the patricians sold us when we pushed for this, that no, no, you can’t do it, you don’t have the auspicium to carry out all the duties that come with the role. And even though we fought for you to have exactly such a role, you’re not taking it up. And therefore it kind of seems like maybe two beings can’t do it. So we have to end it and end it now. We must have a plane isn’t going to take a freaking miracle to find a plebeian who can hold military tribune and with consular power. I think not! We need someone with courage and energy, who’s going to revitalize the institution.

Dr G 43:30That’s very Churchillian of you. But I don’t know that they’re going to get their wish in this year in particular, or next year for that matter. In fact, I don’t think this is going to I don’t think they’re going to achieve this for years.

Dr Rad 43:42Well, I kind of like the way that Livy says that. Finally, like a decade or two, of being relentlessly nagged by the attributes of the plebs. Apparently, it’s only now that the plebeians really start to register.

Dr G 43:59Me. Oh, I see what you’re saying. You. So what you meant back then, was that I could I could go for the role. Yes. What you were saying? Oh, when you first said that’s not how I heard it, you know?

Dr Rad 44:16But to be fair, to be fair, when he says is that basically when they first got the option to run for military tribute with consular power, they felt okay about it, because for beings have obviously shown over the years that they’re capable of leading, usually in a military sense. So we’ve had some standout for being soldiers, commanders, that sort of thing. Well, sorry. Take that back, not command. We’ve had some outstanding soldiers

Dr G 44:42We have: Dentatus.

Dr Rad 44:44True, exactly what a man who could forget. Yeah. So we’ve had those sorts of people so clearly, they can do that. We’ve also had many plebeians who are honorable, who are courageous people, those sorts of people did try and run office when it was first a possibility, but they were bullied, Dr. G…

Dr G 45:06By who?

Dr Rad 45:07Bullied so hard by the patricians that they gave up and they’d rather be embarrassed and not run for office. Then try at all. So there.

Dr G 45:17Wow, that is not the Roman spirit.

Dr Rad 45:20It really isn’t. It actually sounds extremely high school to me. It does, yeah, that you’re gonna let you know, let these beliefs push you around and tell you what you can and cannot do. But also I think Tina Fey would have something to say about that.

Dr G 45:34Are you going to just give up at the first hurdle? Of course, the patricians hate you. They’ve always hated you. That’s why they patricians.

Dr Rad 45:42Well, look, the tribune of the plebs are so fed up with this situation that they’re like, You know what? Maybe we should even remove the option.

Dr G 45:54Oh, no, no, no, no winding back. No, no, no, no,

Dr Rad 46:00Because it would be better to not actually have the option that’s like not being used, then have it? And no one go for it. Because that’s just embarrassing.

Dr G 46:11Excuse me? Yeah. What, what if somebody wants to go for it just like?

Dr Rad 46:16It’s making, it’s making them all look bad.

Dr G 46:18It’s not, it’s just, you know, it’s only embarrassing because they’ve decided they’re embarrassed about it. I need to go back in time and have a stern chat with these people.

Dr Rad 46:29The tribunes are feeling pretty bad about it. So I think you just have to go with their feelings, Dr G.. And you know, this is how they’re feeling about it. Luckily, though, the plebeians say, You know what, yes, we will run for office, we absolutely will take you up on that offer. And they promise all the standard things that any Italian citizen could ever want. And that is placing attacks on landowners.

Dr G 46:57Nice.

Dr Rad 46:57Yeah. And using that money to pay for soldiers.

Dr G 47:01Nice.

Dr Rad 47:02Yep. Because, of course, who’s mostly the rank and file?

Dr G 47:05The plebeians?

Dr Rad 47:07Yeah, exactly. It’d be nice if we didn’t have to pay for our own kit every time. Yeah. And then there also seems to be that age old issue, Dr. G, of land, and land allotment?

Dr G 47:18Ah, redistribution of the property?

Dr Rad 47:21Yep. Yep, exactly. So I think it will shock nobody for me to say that these policies sound extremely Gracchan in nature and therefore, late Republican. However, that’s not to say that they’re not also fair for the early republic, just you know, a little suspicious.

Dr G 47:41The land is pretty important. I think. Land is capital. Yeah. And so you could do a Marxist reading of this as well. Owning the land and redistributing the land. Yeah. Is seizing the means of production? Yeah. Because that’s how you go the green in the first place? Sure. Yeah. That you need to do anything.

Dr Rad 48:01Yeah, this is true. This is true. Yeah. So you know, maybe that is what they went for. But they’re at least giving it a go, whether their policies are stolen from a later century or not.

Dr G 48:13I see. I see. And is this the year? This is it? Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I really have nothing to add, in terms of the narrative, because I mean, one, you’ve done a great job of conveying the narrative to me my end, it is clear that, you know, there are some tensions that are being very much rejected at this point into this period. And fair enough. And because I lack so much source material, what I did instead was I was like, Well, where does Rome really sit? In this moment of time, because it’s been a Republic for, you know, a wee while now. And

Dr Rad 48:49We’re coming up to 100 years.

Dr G 48:51Yeah, we’re nearly there. So it’s time to celebrate and have a bit of a birthday. And one of the things that has come up with this conflict with Veii and Fidenae is that Rome does have some colonies. So there’s like little outposts here and there that are considered to be Roman. And we’ve come across this before. We’ve seen it with Ardea as well, in particular. And so I went through and you know, Cornell was great, provided me a list of the places that Rome is said to have colonized early on. So Fidenae quite early, a place called Signia, Circeii, Cora, Pomezia, Velitrae, Norba, Antium, and Ardea. So we’re like, we’re up to like maybe like nine or 10 different areas, which by the time that we’re in, in this 424, period, right, also have a Roman population of sorts. So it’s not just the city of Rome, it’s starting to expand out they’ve got a foothold in some different places. Losing something like Fidenae is a problem, not just because of its strategic value, but because of the message it sends to those other areas that they’ve colonized, you know, or well, if one can successfully break away, well, maybe some more could break away as well, because it sets up this kind of buffer zone around Rome itself, that gets harder to for an enemy to get close to the city. And so I’m interested in the way that Rome is shifting gradually, slowly in their understanding of themselves as not just being about the city, but being about a state that expands beyond that. And they’re starting to grow out. And we’ve been starting to see it for a little while. But that’s kind of the lay of the land where we’re at at the moment.

Dr Rad 50:41You know what, I know that that’s probably not too bad. But I’m actually surprised it’s not more. I guess it’s because so many of the wars we’ve been talking about. They are defensive more than anything,

Dr G 50:53And they’re mostly inconclusive, and somebody steals the booty one year, somebody steals back the booty the next year. It’s not like territorial acquisition

Dr Rad 51:02Second-hand arse.

Dr G 51:05Well, you know, I mean, if I have to win something, better that than nothing.

Dr Rad 51:11No, thank you that geography is never my strong point. So I do appreciate it when others provide a geographical context for me.

Dr G 51:21Look, I’m sorry to say that we don’t know where a lot of these are necessarily. I mean, some we do we have to see it and not now they can’t be that far away. I don’t think they’re far away now. So I actually think this is probably a good place to wrap up this episode, indeed.

Dr Rad 51:35So we got tribunes causing issues as they are want to do.

Dr G 51:41They really just want the best for the plebs. I think and, you know, don’t we all?

Dr Rad 51:45Look, I do. You know, what, sometimes it takes, you know, authority figures getting really angry with you and saying, Look, you’re not living up to my expectations. Sometimes, you know, it’s I’m here, but you need to hear it. But also I believe in you exactly. Know what you can do it guys. Yeah, exactly. Take that power running for office. It’s great. All right, deputy. That means that it’s time for the Partial Pick.

Dr G 52:13[Screeching bird sound]. We’ve had a listener complaint about my impression of an eagle, for which I apologize, but will continue to do anyway.

Dr Rad 52:24I don’t know how cause I’ve been cutting you out and putting in the actual sound effect for episodes.

Dr G 52:28Oh. My. God.

Dr Rad 52:32We haven’t had you doing the eagle in a really long time.

Dr G 52:36I cannot believe that my mastery has been cut out. Well, clearly, when I edit the episodes I leave myself in. So I apologize to everybody. That’s my editorial decision.

You can add that to the Partial Historians bingo game. Is Dr. G’s eagle imitation cut out or is it in? Because you can tell who edited an episode.

That will be the giveaway. Yeah. Because obviously I’m an artiste. And I leave my eagle sound effect in, thank you very much.

Dr Rad 53:07Look I’m mindful of the fact that Igor needs his regular income from appearing on our show.

Dr G 53:12Oh, well, yeah.

Dr Rad 53:14Do you really want to put an eagle out of work? Or whatever? Check whatever bird we’re using as the sound effect.

Dr G 53:19Yeah, it’s not an eagle. Apologies on that front as well. All right, the Partial Pick. Yeah, Rome has the possibility of winning 50 Golden Eagles. Let’s see if they can do it. There’s five categories. out of 10 each.

Dr Rad 53:35Yeah.

Dr G 53:36Military clout?

Dr Rad 53:38No.

Dr G 53:40In a year where nothing happened. Yeah.

Dr Rad 53:42Amazing how they’ve managed to let that one slip through their fingers.

Dr G 53:45Yeah 425, 424. I mean, they’re recovering from like, what, what appears to be a 10 year plus warfare

Dr Rad 53:51Excuses. Excuse other people part from the Etruscans to fight?

Dr G 53:55Wow. Probably tired. All right. So with zero Yeah, I agree. Diplomacy?

Dr Rad 54:02Well, okay. There are two truces. Hmm, we’ve got the very lengthy one with a entirely undeserved that should keep him out of trouble. Yeah. And then we got the shorter one with the Aequians. Which I feel like the Romans didn’t really want to give it in the first place. But they did.

Dr G 54:19I see.

Dr Rad 54:21So I don’t know what that is maybe like three?

Dr G 54:24Well, maybe even a five

Dr Rad 54:27Five is way too generous.

Dr G 54:29Hear me out. Okay. I’ll give you my rationale. And then you can disagree.

Dr Rad 54:33All right.

Dr G 54:34Five, because they have been a thorn in the side of Rome for nigh on 10 plus years. As far as our narrative sources are concerned.

Dr Rad 54:42Nice use of “nigh on”

Dr G 54:45And the Aequians are considered one of Rome’s fundamental enemies. And they’ve managed to like tie things up with the Volscii for now. So getting the Aequians on board with a treaty as well is super beneficial. Because this means that three of Rome’s greatest enemies in this time period are now apparently technically locked into a truce of some kind.

Dr Rad 55:11I believe when I said look, I’ll go as high as a four.

Dr G 55:16Oh, wow. Wow. All right four it is. Expansion?

Dr Rad 55:22No.

Dr G 55:25Virtus?

Dr Rad 55:25Oh wait, actually sorry. Rewind diplomacy – the game – so the games counts as diplomacy like inviting around from the neighborhood area.

Dr G 55:25I guess it depends on whether you steal their women or not.

Dr Rad 55:36They didn’t. They were extremely polite.

Dr G 55:38Well, that put that up to five.

Dr Rad 55:40Yeah. Okay. Five.

Dr G 55:45Expansion, so no, yeah, that wasn’t what we were rewarding, so virtus?

Dr Rad 55:51No, I don’t think there’s anything.

Dr G 55:54I mean, if you have to bully the plebs into like taking up power, I don’t know if that’s a virtus thing.

Dr Rad 55:58That’s been happening for ages.

Dr G 56:01And Citizen Score?

Dr Rad 56:02Okay. Now, whilst attributes very cranky and not pleased with the plebeians. The end result does seem to be plebeians trying to get a senior magistracy that may or may not exist.

Dr G 56:19Well, I mean, that does sound like a great outcome.

Dr Rad 56:23Yeah. But you know, like, if I if we go with what Livy says, which I generally do, then,

Dr G 56:29And I have no choice but to at this stage

Dr Rad 56:32Your on my ride. So in that case, yeah. I mean, it’s not too bad.

Dr G 56:39Look, it’s not I don’t think it’s bad at all that we’ve got no wars. Yeah. There’s all this diplomacy means that everyone gets to stay home.

Dr Rad 56:46Yeah

Dr G 56:47They got games. They’re not dying.

Dr Rad 56:49No.

Dr G 56:50And really, yeah. All anybody wants them to do is to take and seize the power that the law says that they’re allowed to have.

Dr Rad 56:57Yeah. And they are taking them up on that. So I guess it’s time to be a citizen. Really? Yeah. Okay, so maybe like a fine. Well, I mean, come on. We don’t want to go too crazy.

Dr G 57:08Yeah, they aren’t having the best time. They haven’t gotten the land reallotment, have they?

Dr Rad 57:12Yeah, I was gonna say this is all very it’s they’re just running for office. I haven’t got it yet. Yeah. So five, five, okay, five minutes. That means Dr. G, 10 golden eagles, which I was not anticipating any, because there really wasn’t a hell of a lot going on in 425 and 424 BCE.

Dr G 57:33Ten out of 50. Though that’s a fail.

Dr Rad 57:35Well, yeah, but, let’s face it. We’ve had worse years we have and this was actually

Dr G 57:40This was two years.

Dr Rad 57:41It’s really

Dr G 57:43Five for each year.

Dr Rad 57:44Yeah.

Dr G 57:45Oh, well. Well, Rome, you tried,

Dr Rad 57:48But they can’t all be winners, you know, particularly not in the fifth century BCE.

Dr G 57:53Well, it has been a very much a pleasure. sit down chat with you,

Dr Rad 57:57indeed it has.

Dr G 58:00Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Partial Historians. Dr. Rad and myself thank you so much for listening, and supporting our work and enjoying this ride through Roman history with us. We’d like to send our special thanks to the following patrons. Roger, Steve, Maria, Anthony, Ryan, Fredrik, Graham, Daniel, Jonathan, Miki, Kara, Hillary, and Lucas. Some of these people started supporting us very recently, some over the course of the last year. And for all of them, we offer our huge things. So I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but maybe our microphones have improved recently. That is down to you guys. It really is. So thank you so much, and we’ll catch you again soon.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

The Robe (1953) is a cinematic classic of Golden Age Hollywood. With its mix of ancient Rome and early Christianity, it was a winner with audiences around the globe. In this special episode, we tap into Dr Rad’s expertise in reception in film and come to grips with the power of The Robe!

Special Episode – The Robe

A Challenging Context

It was tricky to deal with modern political issues in this era of Hollywood under the influence of HUAC (the House Un-American Activities Committee). For the makers of The Robe, which explicitly dealt with the life of Jesus under the Romans, there were additional challenges due to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. Returning to the Old Testament was often a safer bet for Hollywood films.

The rights to The Robe were initially purchased by RKO, before finally being canceled in 1948. It found a new home at 20th Century Fox. The fact that The Robe was in production for a long time has raised some interesting questions about the impact of historical context.

The script was initially written by Albert Maltz, one of the infamous Hollywood Ten. The original script does seem to touch on blacklist themes. In Caligula’s original speech at the end of the film he refers to the “sedition” of the Christians and Marcellus has to deny that he is involved in a conspiracy to overthrow the state. This sounds eerily close to the experience of Hollywood Communists, who were generally not radicals trying to seize control of the government. There were also more references to the naming of names in Maltz’s version of The Robe…

The-Hollywood-Ten-1024x682.png" alt="A black and white photo of people protesting in favour of the Hollywood Ten." class="wp-image-4539">

People protesting in favour of the Hollywood Ten. Source: Encyclopaedia Britannica.

HUAC and The Robe

But HUAC lay in his future, as Maltz only worked on this project from 1942-1946. As Smith (2005) has highlighted, while Maltz could not have worked HUAC references into the script before his HUAC experiences, it is possible that the tension over Communism still shaped his draft. There were moves against Communism before the Second Red Scare that swept America in the late 1940s and 1950s, such as the actions of the Tenney Committee in the early 1940s, or the foundation of the right-wing Motion Picture Alliance for American Ideals.

Or perhaps Maltz was more focused on providing a critique of Italian fascism, given the backdrop of World War II? Maltz wrote Cloak and Dagger (1947) immediately after The Robe, which definitely took aim at Italian fascism, whilst exalting the resistance from the Communists. He would also write Crossfire (1947), a film that tackled issues of anti-Semitism within the USA.

and-Dagger-1947-668x1024.jpg" alt='Film poster for "Cloak and Dagger". Gary Cooper is named as the star at the header. Fitz Lang is identified as the director.' class="wp-image-4543">

Film poster for Cloak and Dagger (1947)

Is it possible that the next screenwriter to work on The Robe worked in some sick burns? Phillip Dunne followed Maltz and would eventually receive sole credit for the film, thanks to the blacklist. He was known to be a liberal and helped to establish the Committee for the First Amendment. This group formed in reaction to the HUAC hearings in 1947. Fellow members included other Hollywood luminaries such as William Wyler, Lucille Ball, Lauren Bacall, Bette Davis and Dorothy Daindridge.

However, Dunne was not a Communist; quite the opposite. He may have intended The Robe to be a veiled criticism of HUAC, but he may also have seen the repression of the Romans as being akin to Stalin and the Communist regime.

References

• Reinhartz, A. (2013). Bible and Cinema: Fifty Key Films. Routledge. https://doi.org/10.4324/9780203083260
• Richards, J. (2008). Hollywood’s Ancient Worlds. Continuum.
• Smith, J. (2005). ‘Are You Now or Have You Ever Been a Christian?: The Strange History of The Robe As Political Allegory‘, Film Studies, Winter: 7, 1-15.

Robe-Lobby-Card.jpg" alt="A coloured lobby card for 'The Robe' featuring illustrations of the actors and dramatic fights scenes. Text at the top reads '20th Cenutry-Fox presents The Robe technicolour'. Lower text reads 'The First Motion Picture In CinemaScope'" class="wp-image-4473">

A lobby card for The Robe

Automated Transcript

Provided by Otter AI

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to the Partial Historians, we explore all the details of ancient Rome. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr Rad 1:03Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:10And I am a somewhat healthy, Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:15I know this is true dedication, Patreons, Dr G has been suffering from the vid.

Dr G 1:22I’ve been on my deathbed. But I’ve bounced back. Thank goodness.

Dr Rad 1:27It was Rome that calls you for and said live live another day.

Dr G 1:33And one must always follow the commands of Rome. And here I am. as ever.

Dr Rad 1:39Well, I suppose luckily, or unluckily. I’m not sure. We’re not doing our normal narrative today. But instead, we’re taking a journey into Hollywood land, which could be good for a sick person, or maybe not.

Dr G 1:54I look, I think it’s gonna be it’s gonna be good. I’m excited for this golden era. Hollywood is one of my favorite times in Hollywood.

Dr Rad 2:03We all love it. We all adore it. So let’s get into this special episode where we get to talk all about The Robe 1953.

Dr G 2:50What a film. I mean, I think the best thing about it is Richard Burton.

Dr Rad 2:54Definitely let’s let’s give a bit of a cast rundown. So in typical Partial Historians fashion, we’re doing this slightly backwards in that we looked at the sequel first. But that was only for our Patreon. So for everybody else, we’re just doing The Robe. So first of all, we have Richard Burton playing the lead male character Marcellus Gallio.

Dr G 3:19A fine specimen of a young Roman if I ever saw one.

Dr Rad 3:21Indeed. And then we have my favorite Jean Simmons playing the lead female part, Diana, I think she’s actually really good in this role. Yeah, well, you know, she’s got that pure beauty about her. She looks very innocent.

Dr G 3:39She does.

Dr Rad 3:39Yeah. And then, of course, we’ve got the hero of our Patreon bonus episode Demetrius and the Gladiators, because, of course, being a sequel, he’s in this one too big to mature, playing Demetrius,

Dr G 3:53And he does look mature, doesn’t he?

Dr Rad 3:57He does have a mature look about him. But lest we forget, he retired at 44. So I guess he was in his 30s at this point in time.

Dr G 4:04Oh, wow.

Dr Rad 4:06And then we have Michael Rennie playing St. Peter.

Dr G 4:11Yeah, I feel like that was a bit of a that’s a bit of a throw into the sequel as well, isn’t it?

Dr Rad 4:18I believe so. I think he was in both. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they knew they were filming both when they started, as I discovered last time. And then we have Jay Robinson playing Caligula.

Dr G 4:30Hmm. Yeah. We’ll come back to that one.

Dr Rad 4:33Yeah. And then I think the main ones that we have to deal with there are major characters. Yeah, I think that kind of covers it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. So The Robe 1953 is a big film in many ways. Not only is an epic from the age of epics, the Golden Age of Hollywood epics, but it also has won some fame for some of the other milestones that are associated with this film. Now, just to give us an idea of exactly how big a smash it was, it costs a smidgen over $4 million to make. And, yeah, it took in $17 million in the US a market and $36 million world wide.

Dr G 5:25Okay, so this was a profit making engine?

Dr Rad 5:29Well, yeah, I mean, it has a cycle that’s going to tell something

Dr G 5:35built in, apparently, as well. So yeah,

Dr Rad 5:37I do like this detail, though, that some of the ticket sales would have been to teachers who were pressed into going to see this movie for their students, or with their students, maybe?

Dr G 5:50Yeah, goodness. I mean, that kind of made up the bulk of sales, surely.

Dr Rad 5:56Anyway, so let’s talk a little bit about this ethic, Dr. G. So what were your initial impressions? I’m dying to know,

Dr G 6:03Oh, look, I think longtime listeners of this show will be well aware that I tend to classify myself as a pagan, and my position has not changed. As a result of watching the Rome, it did feel like very much that they were utilizing Roman history as a vehicle for getting to the Christian story. And I’m not a fan of that, to be honest. Christianity is not huge. In this initial face, like this is set sort of right at the moment of the passing of the Messiah.

Dr Rad 6:39Jesus is alive in this film. That tells us something. Yeah,

Dr G 6:43Jesus starts alive in this film. Yeah, he doesn’t stay alive. So that gives us almost everything we need to know about what moment in history we’re in. But the sense in which there is a really strong Christianizing moment that comes over all of the players who’ve been closely associated with that moment of Jesus’s death is really interesting. Yeah, and I would say, anachronistic.

Dr Rad 7:09For sure. I mean, it’s historically accurate to place Jesus’s life in his time period. So the time period we’re talking about is the tail end of the reign of Tiberius, aka the best period ever. And we then end up going into some of calculus, rain as well. And calculus, definitely around this whole movie. He’s not, you know, off to the side, and Tiberius is a circle regular, I think, is definitely the main Roman imperial character that we get to know over the course of this film. And that is historical. As far as we can tell, Jesus was indeed around in the latter half of Tiberius, his reign. So anyway, the general setting for Jesus’s lifetime, and when he starts to become a problem for Rome, all is accurate. And so we’ve got our major players, you know, being where they should be. But as you say, this is a classic Hollywood epic in that in order for you to have a good guy and a bad guy, you know, someone to root for and someone to despise while still enjoying the things that they get up to. It’s pretty normal for Hollywood to go to a Christians versus Romans storyline, or at least Christians slash Jewish people. Question Mark versus Romans?

Dr G 8:30Yeah. And this leads us into some like really interesting directorial choices, or maybe casting decisions as well, because the Romans quintessentially played by the English. So they’ve got that very sort of RP accent going on. Yeah, but then the people of Palestine appear to be American. Where, I mean, it’s something

Dr Rad 8:53But I think that that actually does keep into the whole accent divide. Because I think it’s kind of meant to be the people who are on the side, that you’re meant to be rooting for generally American.

Dr G 9:06Hmm. So Hollywood would want you to believe.

Dr Rad 9:09Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s not. It’s not uncommon for the movies of this era to have that accent divided so that it’s super clear, just in case you were thinking of rooting for the Romans that were crucifying Jesus, just in case you had a moment where you thought maybe I’m on their side. They go for the accent just to make it very clear.

Dr G 9:30That and the way that they decide to portray particular were Romans. Now, Caligula, as we know, doesn’t have heaps of redeeming features, ultimately, and the Romans themselves get pretty jack of them very quickly, they do. So this is what what is about to follow is not the saving of Caligula. Now, when I say I think he might have been overplayed a little bit in this film.

Dr Rad 9:59Oh, Though I have to admit, though, I kind of enjoy the guy who played here. And he does have the kind of voice that really grates on you in a way that makes you think, yeah, I could assassinate this guy after a few years. I think I’d be annoyed enough.

Dr G 10:15He is frustratingly inept in his presentation, and because we don’t get a good read on motivation from Caligula, and because it just feels like he’s being played for the sort of the hysterical, maniacal, power driven figure that is portrayed as in this film. It makes him feel a little bit unbelievable, whilst also holding down the position as the bad guy.

Dr Rad 10:46Yeah, fair enough. Well, before we get too much further into Ahala, we probably should say something about the general storyline of this film. So why don’t you tell us about the the story of Digi

Dr G 10:57Okay, all right. Well, I mean, it starts off great opening scene. It seems like we’re in the Roman Forum. Everyone’s having a good time. It’s clearly slave-buying season. Not that anybody should be excited about that.

Dr Rad 11:11I say Why does it not slave-buying season in Rome?

Dr G 11:14It seems to b a particularly busy time at the moment. And this sets up the few really important dynamics. It allows us to see Marcellus re-meeting his childhood sweetheart, Diana, they haven’t seen each other for many years. So that sets up that relationship. We learn about Diana’s connection as a ward of Tiberius to calendula, potentially as a love interest for him. But we also learn about myself versus ongoing tension with Caligula as well apparently those two don’t get along. And then we have this sort of moment with the slave market, which introduces us to Demetrius as well, who is perhaps the most stoic character in this whole

Dr Rad 12:00Oh, my God, yes.

Dr G 12:01So stoic, and this guy kind of just accepts his fate as it is, doesn’t seem to fight one way or the other. But does seem to be motivated by an internal set of principles. And for whatever reason, Demetrius ends up coming to the attention of both Marcellus and Caligula during this slave sail. And this becomes an important point because it’s this moment. And this tension between Marcellus and Caligula, which turns Demetrius is fate. So you technically gets freed in a slave auction through being purchased at such a high price for Marcellus to sort of jab coelicolor A little bit. But because Demetrius feels that this isn’t appropriate to be bought at such a high price just to be set free, he decides to become the manservant of Marcellus anyway. So these two are now bound up together in what appears to be a kind of odd duo, because my Seles then goes on to be like, let’s be friends, if we’re going to hang out together like this. Demetrius is, like, we are not friends. I really owe you. It’s different.

Dr Rad 13:15I do like the pairing, though. I mean, Burton’s got the voice and Mature’s got this shoulder.

Dr G 13:22Yeah, so these two end up on adventures together, which are all bound up with calendula in particular ways Caligula is annoyed at Marcellus for this whole debacle in the slave market. So he sends him to Palestine as a bit of a punishment. While he’s there, he ends up in a situation with Pontius Pilate, so that’s good news. Everybody likes it when Pontius Pilate enters the enters the scene, Pontius Pilate sort of commands myself is to be in charge with the crucifixion of Jesus, which is awkward, but also at the same time has a Lady Macbeth moment, which is kind of beautiful, where he’s washing his hands, and he’s like, I need to wash my hands. And he’s slaves like you just wash your hands. Yeah, like the bloods invisible but he’s having trouble guys. He’s ordered the death of Jesus. Then we have some really interesting moments in Palestine, one of which is this trading of the robe. So pivotal to this entire film, it would seem is that we don’t see Jesus very much. We don’t really see his face. We sometimes hear his voice, but we he’s a mysterious figure who seems to have an effect on Demetrius straightaway. When he is on the cross, the robe that he had been wearing has been laid at the bottom of it. One of the Roman soldiers picks it up and it’s like that. We could throw this into the old gambling table. Let’s when the robe of Jesus and Marcellus wins it, but is then sort of overcome when he tries to put it on himself when it’s raining and he wants To protect himself it seems like it has a huge negative effect on him like almost like burns his skin or something. Anyway, it’s it’s horrifying to him and Demetrius just wanders off with the robe in the end does like I’ll take that.

Dr Rad 15:14But he does have that amazing scene because there’s all that storm happening around them and I must have been I think this is probably one of Victor Mature’s finest moments on screen, where he sort of screams and Richard Burton’s face as he’s, you know, dealing with the effects of the robe and all of that kind of stuff. And he does that whole “murderers, thieves, jungle animals. Masters of the world you call yourselves. I’m curse on you. I curse on your empire.” Mwahahahaha

Dr G 15:51Lightning strikes in the background and this thunder?

Dr Rad 15:54Yeah, it’s great. Yeah, the evil laughter was my addition, I should say.

Dr G 16:00Very intense moment. And Demetrius ends up walking off with the robe, completely unharmed by it, because clearly it’s there’s a connection between his faith and one’s capacity to hold this garment. Sacred as it is. Marcellus ends up back in Rome and seen Tiberius on the Isle of Capri being like what I do, I’ve got this madness. And the Romans in the wisdom decide that the road must be cursed, which is for the Romans had excellent choice really. It’s like that would explain it. So Marcellus is given an imperial commission to destroy this robe. And it’s like, use whatever means you need to.

Dr Rad 16:45So this is great guys, how many people might have tried it on by now? Yeah,

Dr G 16:48it’s a disaster. We’ve got to find it as soon as possible.

Dr Rad 16:52If anybody finds out about this garment, it’s going to be a PR nightmare.

Dr G 16:56That’s basically what Tiberius says, when when everybody leaves. And he’s like, this is the worst thing that has ever happened in my entire rule.

Dr Rad 17:03And I’ve had some stuff happen.

Dr G 17:06We must deal with this instantly.

Dr Rad 17:08I mean, my brother died, I had to divorce the wife that I loved. I then had to marry a woman I hated the child that we had died, then both my natural son and my adopted son birthday, that was pretty bad. But this this robe. Okay.

Dr G 17:25It is up there. Yeah. So Marcellus finds himself back in Palestine, because that’s where he last saw Demetrius with the robe. It is like, Well, I’m gonna go back to the source that look for more clues. And this leads to a whole bunch of unfoldings. There’s storytelling things. There’s this slow journey of Marcellus from like quintessential Roman, to like, somebody, embodied in faith, very dedicated Christian, very dedicated across this journey. Yeah, he meets some villagers who really shift his perspective on things. He finds Demetrius again. And all of this sort of nourishes his flourishing belief. So by the time he does get back to Rome, he’s now committed to the cause. And he also hasn’t told anybody that he’s back for ages as well. So

Dr Rad 18:16Well, yeah, he’s got he’s got new friends now, the Christians. And so Peter,

Dr G 18:20yeah. And you know, when Diana finds out about this, because she’s been waiting for him this whole time, that he’s hidden, his return from her. She’s not happy about that, and she is that she demands to be taken to him. And that’s when we find out that the Christians are living in the catacombs. Yes. Which, which is awkward, because they should not really exist. Yeah.

Dr Rad 18:47Minor details, minor details. Yeah,

Dr G 18:50Look, I was I was all fine for them to just be underground caves, like, Rome is literally riddled with natural springs and cave systems anyway, it’s completely, completely fine and legitimate, but they do refer to them as catacombs. And I was like, guys, you know, that people would have have to be buried in them for them to be catacombs. And the people that we know are buried in the catacombs are. And you guys are the first Christians in Rome. So

Dr Rad 19:17There’s been a lot of persecution already.

Dr G 19:21So much, so much persecution already. Anyway, as it turns out, one of the things it’s getting more complicated as the film goes on, but Demetrius has been captured and the Christians have to save him, cuz he’s been tortured for information. Yeah, yeah. And calendula has Demetrius in his grass. Yeah. And is turning the screw as it were. So the Christians all gather together and they managed to pull off a very effective saving of Demetrius and they hide him weirdly at Marcellus his dad’s house. Yeah, although,

Dr Rad 19:57I was going to say it’s, I like the I like the infiltration because they use myself as a mole. You know, he’s got the clothes, he’s got the accent, he can penetrate into the palace itself in order to rescue Demetrius, which I did appreciate,

Dr G 20:14Although it is a concern to me that throughout this entire film, Marcellus has been known consistently as the Tribune. So he’s pretty low down on the cursus honorum. And he’s definitely not progressing any higher, because for him after this film, but the thing is that I feel like given the nature of the events, we’ve had two trips to Palestine, at least in the course of this film, that we are looking at over a year. Oh, it’s way more in terms of time. Yeah. And as a magistrate holding the tribuncianship, it seems very unlikely that Marcellus would continue to be attributed over the whole course of this film, or that given the way that he’s behaved, that people would continue to recognize him as Tribune.

Dr Rad 21:03Yeah, I definitely think it’s meant to be more than a year for sure. But do we think that he is tribune of the plebs or just a military Tribune? That? I don’t know. I feel like I kind of figured he was like a military Tribune.

Dr G 21:17Well, that is an unfortunate place for the son of a senator to have ended up in terms of his career.

Dr Rad 21:23I could be wrong, but that because they never really clarify that. But

Dr G 21:27They don’t. They don’t. And he continues to be attributed throughout the whole that’s true.

Dr Rad 21:31Yeah, that is true. I think they do use that more than his actual name. Tribune. Give me Yeah, Tribune. I’m having some trouble

Dr G 21:39You sir, Tribune. I want you to do the crucifixions. today. I’m bored. Yeah. So our final scene. Ultimately, the plot leads us to this moment where it’s the ultimate showdown between Caligula and Marcellus.

Dr Rad 21:56Yes. Because he’s been captured, he ends up getting captured when he’s trying to get everybody safely. Well, out of Rome, I think they’re going after.

Dr G 22:04Yeah, he’s trying to get Demetrius safely out of Rome. Yeah. And in the course of that, they’re being run down by some cavalry. And Marcellus chooses to sacrifice himself. Yeah, that his friend can get away. Absolutely. It’s never really been clarified that they are friends now. But what assumes over the course of the travails that they’ve encountered that they now like each other, I think they do. Yeah. Yeah. This means that there is a huge public trial. Myself, his parents are there. All of the elite of Rome there.

Dr Rad 22:38Yeah, all of them. It’s a massive crowd.

Dr G 22:40It’s a huge crowd. So many people. Caligula comes in, in what is the reddest garment that has ever been seen on film,

Dr Rad 22:51that the marvels of Technicolor for you?

Dr G 22:53It’s incredible. Everybody else looks pale and washed out in comparison. But Caligula Boy, that is some Imperial read that he’s got. This leads into our whole sort of three ways sort of struggle between Diana, Marcellus and Caligula verbally duking it out, essentially.

Dr Rad 23:15Actually, we should perhaps mentioned that Diana was meant to marry Caligula for a little while there. So yeah, yeah, it’s a triangle or

Dr G 23:24it’s a triangle. And she certainly makes it clear where she stands to Caligula to the point that he changes his mind about being unwilling to punish her to her definitely having to die.

Dr Rad 23:37Yeah, well, I mean, it’s a no brainer, really. I mean, when you’re choosing between Richard Burton’s sultry tones, and those of Jay Robinson, I mean, can you imagine that in the bedroom data, add data?

Dr G 23:54It’s quite something. I mean, I hope he’s got an indoor voice. Just whispered to me, Caligula.

Dr Rad 24:03Yeah, yeah. So basically clears like, you know what, you guys believe so much in this afterlife and this kingdom of heaven and being saved. No big deal if I execute the both of you, and so they match off quite happily just chip off into the clouds.

Dr G 24:18Yeah, it’s the way this film ends is a little bit surprising. I felt like after two and a quarter hours of viewing time, I was not expecting the end scene to be a gentle walk by Marcellus and Diana, out of the trial into heaven.

Dr Rad 24:41I know, I know, but I guess I guess because they knew the sequel was coming. That maybe they felt that that was okay. And look, you know, it’s kind of an anti Hollywood ending. I mean, it’s a happy ending. But it’s not your typical Hollywood ending, I suppose.

Dr G 24:56Yeah, they do get to stay together forever in love, I suppose. Oh,

Dr Rad 25:01there’s that. But I mean, I think if you were going for a real Hollywood ending that somehow they would both survive and Galio would become the emperor or something like that. And also maybe the Pope.

Dr G 25:14Yeah, look, I mean, if you’re gonna rewrite history, I mean, lean in guys.

Dr Rad 25:19Yeah, exactly. So that’s the rough storyline, which, as you can tell by the fact that it took us 13 minutes to tell you the story. But you know what, we’re saving you from watching a two and a quarter hour movie. So although if you want to it could be fun. I’m not saying you shouldn’t watch it. But you know, 13 minutes on two and a quarter hours. It’s not too bad. So let’s maybe talk about where this movie came in from Dr. G. So whilst Hollywood does love a Christians slash Jewish people versus Romans storyline, it did not come out of thin air is of course, based on a book, of course. Yeah. So it was actually written by a guy called Lloyd C. Douglas. And he was the son of an Indiana pastor. And he became a Lutheran minister himself, before moving over to the Congregational Church, for his career. But he started writing as we got into the like, the late 1920s, he started writing, he wrote this book called “Magnificent Obsession”, and it sold 3 million copies. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And so by 1933, he was like, You know what, I don’t think I need to be a minister anymore. I think I’m going to be a novelist.

Dr G 26:35I’ve got a winning formula. And all I need to do is write my books. Yeah,

Dr Rad 26:39he honestly became one of the most popular novelists in America in this time period. And this is not the Rube is not the only one of his books that was adapted into a film. So well, well, well, they’re not they don’t they’re not only popular in terms of people reading them. They are popular in terms of being picked up and made into Hollywood films. So the robe had been a best seller from 1942 until 1945.

Dr G 27:09Wow, okay. Yeah. It was on the bestseller list for years.

Dr Rad 27:13Yeah, absolutely. I presume that publication was maybe slightly slower for like the big novels. I know. They were dying novels and stuff out, you know, in the 1950s that people could buy. And they were turned out very quickly. But I feel like it is a slightly less crowded market, perhaps at this point in time.

Dr G 27:31It’s a very interesting time for the novel to come out as well, like you’re in the middle of the Second World War.

Dr Rad 27:38Yeah, you are indeed. So it was eventually bought by RKO. However, they didn’t really act on it. They just sort of bought the rights to it. And you know, by the late 1940s, it’s still something that they’re just sort of sitting on at that. At that point in time. Howard Hughes is in charge of RKO biblical films were not really his thing. He wasn’t as into them as other people seem to have been at the time.

Dr G 28:06Sounds like how would use it, I might get along. Exactly, yeah.

Dr Rad 28:10But eventually, Darryl Zanuck and Fox Studios step in. And this is how the film finally kind of gets off the ground and gets made. So that’s just sort of a little bit of background to the film. But as a result, and not, to be honest, this is pretty common for Hollywood movies of this time. There are a number of people who ended up working on the script for the film, because it has such a long production process. But even with the ones that were shorter, it was pretty common to have more than one person, you know, take a look at the script and give their input and that sort of thing. When the film was finally made, it definitely got a huge publicity campaign. So we’re talking radio ads, we’re talking television, we’re talking newspapers, everywhere you look there’s an ad for the road.

Dr G 28:58Have you seen Cinemascope?

Dr Rad 29:02Nobody has. It’s the first one to have it. So of course, it’s going to be viewing this new widescreen format which the studios are hoping is going to keep people coming to the movies rather than sitting at home and watching their televisions which of course the becoming a big thing in this post World War Two era and so they make the film’s bigger, more colorful, more extravagant, the kinds of thing that television which is generally a little square, black and white box just can’t really offer you know, we’re talking about also sound you know, stereophonic sound, it’s it’s all a big thing. And it’s given this huge premiere, where it’s like a freaking circus. We’re talking about, you know, the spotlights outside the cinema, the stars are attending, you know, it’s a very, very big deal.

Dr G 29:53There’s gladiators playing games.

Dr Rad 29:58Yeah, so it’s definitely a huge to do when it when it comes out. So as you highlighted when this novel was first written, and people were maybe first toying with the idea of making this film, it was a world war two time. And that seems to have been thought to be part of the message of the film when they were first, you know, throwing it around that in some way, Caligula and Rome are meant to be this sort of, you know, decadent place, that they’re somehow the way they’re treating Jewish people slash Christians, because of the crossover. It’s kind of meant to be like the persecutions that were carried out, in particular, I suppose, by Hitler, but also to some extent by Mussolini. So this was definitely meant to be something that people were, I think, picking up on when they were first, you know, developing this into a film.

Dr G 30:59Look, I think that sounds reasonable. Yeah. Yeah, you do get the sense that the way that the Romans are being positioned in this film is quite particular. And it’s quite different from other epics of this era that I’ve watched so far, because I’m not going to pretend that I’m conversant in all the Hollywood epics.

Dr Rad 31:20But there are quite a few now.

Dr G 31:22I have watched a few but I wouldn’t say I’m in any way an expert at this point in time. But it did feel to me like the Romans were being very much positioned in a particular way. And it was, in part to do with, obviously, the focus is on the Christian story. So the Romans are, by default, the bad guys here, but also, that it’s coming out of that sort of post Second War mindset. Well, how do we understand conflict? How do we understand the persecution of peoples? And so while I wasn’t really consciously thinking about it, when I watched it, the vibe that the Romans are giving off in this film is intriguing.

Dr Rad 32:04Yeah. And I think it’s kind of one of those things as well, where were these sorts of moralizing films, it’s kind of that thing of people get to enjoy watching the Romans have this very fancy schmancy life that they have, whilst also being like, Oh, isn’t a terrible, look at what they’re doing to those poor Christians. So it’s like they because the moral is there, they get to enjoy watching the decadence of Rome. But I didn’t feel like it was as over the top in the robe, as it has been in some of the other movies, we’ve watched, like quovadis, and that sort of thing.

Dr G 32:38And I feel like the decadence was actually a little bit pared back in this film, like note that it didn’t have like all of the highly colored interior scenes and the layering of different stones and things like that it was obviously trying to be quite opulent in its way. But it also felt like maybe they didn’t have quite as much budget as some other films for some of that stuff. Yeah, definitely.

Dr Rad 33:00Now, the other interesting thing I’m going to throw in contextually Dr G is that so when this film was purchased, and when it was being made, we’re still in the time of the studio system. So this is a period where you’ve got kind of like five major movie studios that really dominate the production of movies in Hollywood, there are some minor studios. And then there are also some truly budget, you know, just pump out these really crappy movie studios, they do exist. But the major films, particularly the ones that most people would be familiar with today, they’re going to be made by one of these major studios. And it’s kind of that idea of it being like the dream factory time of Hollywood, you know, where they’re manufacturing movies. And so they’re in charge of who gets hired to be director who’s the producer, who’s on contract, like the stars are all under contract at various studios, and they have to make so many pictures per year, and they get paid this much to do it and all that kind of stuff. So huge amount of control. Now, most of these Hollywood studios, these major ones are owned by Jewish movie moguls. This puts them I suppose in an interesting position in the 20th century. Now, of course, I think part of the reason why that ended up being the case is that typically, when when movies first sort of became a thing, it wasn’t necessarily the most admired or respectable profession to be involved in, you know, I mean, it wasn’t the theater.

Dr G 34:33In the same way that actors in ancient Rome were suffering under the pool of a lack of respect for their craft. Exactly. So too, did early filmmakers, people like that’s not

Dr Rad 34:46exactly yeah, and I think it’s so it’s something that you do tend to get people that perhaps aren’t risking a wider reputation, I suppose, or aren’t too concerned about what this wider society You may or may not think we’re also talking about people who are potentially immigrants. You know, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why you might end up getting maybe a higher percentage of Jewish people getting involved in the film industry in the early days. And their investment, of course really pays off, because everyone starts to really fall in love with movies, which makes, which makes the people that got involved in the early film industry, very wealthy when they rise to the top. Now, it’s not by any means only Jewish people that are involved. But there is a trend where a lot of the big movie Americans at the studios are Jewish people. Now, they don’t want to be seen to be putting prou Jewish propaganda into their films or things like that, particularly once we get into this time period that we’re talking about, you know, with, obviously, World War Two, I mean, even I mean, obviously, we talk about American history, obviously, there’s always been, I think, a certain stigma against anybody who’s perceived to be an outsider. But particularly in the early 20th century, we know that we see a spike in terms of racism, not just directed against African American groups, but also directed against any immigrant groups, and Jewish people in the 1930s, are increasingly being associated Well, in the 1920s, and the 1930s. Really, they’re increasingly being associated with communism. So especially with everything that’s happened with World War Two, especially, it’s not really a great time, I suppose, to be seen, to be putting out film sort of openly, you know, Pro, the Jewish course. 1919 48, I think makes it particularly touchy issue. Because, of course, this is when we get the creation of the State of Israel. So with the creation of the State of Israel, there was actually a film release that was touching on these sorts of issues, and was kind of pro Israel called the sword in the desert. But there was a riot that broke out in a London cinema when it was shown. And so it was actually withdrawn. And so I think that showed a message of, you know, people aren’t really going to want to see these sorts of films, or at least that’s the feeling. And obviously, we’re talking about Hollywood, it’s a business, you’ve got to, you know, make your money somehow. So a way I suppose, of dealing with that was by making biblical epics, where there is a bit of a focus on, say, the Old Testament. So we do see a lot of Jewish heroes turning up in some of these 1950s epics, another one, of course, played by Victor mature Samson, Samson and Delilah. And then of course, we’ve got Moses turning up in the 10 commandments. And then you’ve got characters like Joshua Solomon, and even in terms of women, you’ve got people like Ruth and Esther turning up in some of these biblical epics. So the robe is kind of an interesting one, because it is obviously crossing that, that line between Old Testament days and entering the New Testament led by one Jesus Christ.

Dr G 38:02Yeah, we’re in this very interesting storyline. I suspect, and it doesn’t necessarily, I don’t think it’s over in this film. But it’s clear as well, that this is about the genesis of Christianity. And it emerges out of Palestinian culture, that’s clear, both from the geographic location. And it’s clear from the way in which the robe engages with this story as well, like Marcellus goes on this journey, which involves him going into Palestine as part of his job as a Roman, but also learning and discovering things about himself while he is there. Yeah. And for him, that’s not necessarily about Jesus in the beginning. It’s a much longer journey. And so I think part of what this film is trying to do is to try to capture what does this historical moment really mean? For so that sense in which we know that there are people in Palestine during this time period historically, who are being crucified? And what kind of effect does that have on the people who are there at the time? And what kind of stories are they telling about these people? Because one of these stories ends up becoming very influential, and being retold and retold. So this is an interesting way to tackle it, I think, through the eyes of somebody who is Roman, and also through the eyes of someone who is not Roman, but he’s also an outsider.

Dr Rad 39:34Yeah, it is a really interesting film in that respect. And I think also the choice of having it I mean, obviously, they had to place it when they did if they were going to be accurate about when Jesus was supposedly alive and when he was being crucified. But I think there is also a tendency to set these sorts of movies during the Empire, not just because historically it makes sense, but also because there are publican era of Rome had been such a model for the USA itself. And they like to think of themselves as you know, inheriting some of those Republican Roman values. So a way I suppose dealing with the fact that they like, we’re like the Romans, they’re like, oh, wait a second. Not those Romans. Yeah. When like their republic and Romans, not those decadent, Imperial Roman, it’s not the USA.

Dr G 40:26I mean, they’re very lucky in that regard that the timeline is what it is. Because imagine if this had happened in the Republic, and it very well could have because

Dr Rad 40:35Their heads would literally explode

Dr G 40:38We are not that far into the imperial period.

Dr Rad 40:44Now, of course, for that there were some minor contextual factors. So the rivalry from television, we’ve got the studio system, and the people that are behind the studio system, follow the money, did you?

Dr G 40:57Well, yeah. Like I hear Jean Simmons had to, like, break contract and get a different contract in order to do partly to be in this film.

Dr Rad 41:04That’s generally what they had to do. There’s always sort of like they it was, it was almost as though the celebrities were like trading cards. And, you know, studios would be like, Look, I really want so and so from this picture, they be just right for the role. What can you do I will trade you these two women for that woman for six months? Or? Or yeah, they will, they had to renegotiate their contracts. Because often their contracts would be like for seven years. So it’s quite a substantial chunk of time. So we’ve got television, we’ve got the studio system, we’ve got the creation of Israel, whilst this film is very slowly being developed. And then of course, the big thing that we need to talk about is the Red Scare of the 1950s. Don’t know. Thank you, thank you, I needed a sound effect. So by the time the room is finally like properly in production, which is by the early 1950s, we’re looking at a second round of huge hearings, which is the house of UnAmerican Activities Committee. And these are the people that are most notorious for trying to root out communists in various industries in America, but in particular, in Hollywood, and I say in particular, in that it was probably obviously the most widely publicized.

Dr G 42:23Yeah, it’s a horrifying time to be for the progressive political nature.

Dr Rad 42:27Yes. So there’s been a lot of talk about the robe and the whack hearings. Because of course, there are some key scenes in the room, which some people have taken to mean, that this film was trying to talk about the present happenings in America, whilst extensively talking about the past. I’m wondering if you can guess which scenes I’m talking about Dr. G. I

Dr G 42:53don’t know that I can. I didn’t have this moment where I was like, aha, that’s a clear us moment. I had moments where I was like, this is another Lady Macbeth reference.

Dr Rad 43:04Very possibly,

Dr G 43:05maybe they’re the same. Look, there is this scene on the ship back to Italy, where Barcellos seems to be involuntarily moaning a bit like a lady while he’s asleep. As there is the sound of the hammer on the deck of the ship. Could this be a hammer and sickle reference that I’ve missed? Could this? Could this be a recollection of his role in the crucifixion? Where the sounds are the hammer of minds him of the of the nails that he drilled into Jesus’s body? Anyway? I don’t know. But that was a great scene.

Dr Rad 43:43Well, basically, it is the scene where Tiberius is talking to Marcellus, the Tribune, about finding out about the road, like tracking it down. Yeah, reaching out all the Christians, all of that kind of stuff. So he explicitly says to Marcellus, you know, I need a list of names every name, I need to know who these people are, we need to hunt them down, we need to route them down. So that has sometimes been seen as a not very subtle reference to what he wack was trying to do in the late 1940s. And in the early 1950s, because this film, of course, came out in 1953. So it was out after two rounds of Hollywood hearings, the of the committee, so some people have seen that as being a reference. But I did find this article which delves into the complicated production of this film. And part of I think the reason why people were so keen to see a parallel is that the major screenwriter during the early days of production for the robe was Albert moths. Now, Albert mult isn’t a minor very well, because he was one of the Hollywood 10. So he’s one of the original guys that ends up getting called up in 1947. Before he work along with another guy, I know, Dalton Trumbo, he and Trump We’re pretty tight.

Dr G 45:02Of course they are.

Dr Rad 45:05Yeah, yeah. And then the next guy to work on the script is a guy called Philip Dunne. Now he ended up being part of a group of people in Hollywood called the committee for the First Amendment. So this is a reference to the fact that when the US UK hearing started to happen in 1947, quite a lot of the more liberal people in Hollywood were, of course horrified by what was happening, these people that they know, these people that they’ve worked with, and they perhaps were just liberal enough to not think that this was actually something that should be happening in America. So a bunch of them get together to try and rally support for the Hollywood 10. And they end up calling themselves the committee for the first amendment because one of the decisions one of the key decisions that the Hollywood tena decided to make in 1947, is that they were going to plead the First Amendment and not the fifth. Okay, so they’re not they’re not pleading,

Dr G 46:04now, you’re really testing my understanding of the US Constitution, because I do not know what the First Amendment stands for adults. Basically,

Dr Rad 46:13we’re talking about the Fifth Amendment is your right to not incriminate yourself, which tends to be what happens later on in the huge tech hearings, because the First Amendment doesn’t work. The First Amendment we’re talking about things like your freedom of speech. Okay, your your basic freedoms, like some of the things that Americans cling to, most daily, I see. And they basically say that they want to do that rather than pleading the fifth when they get called up in front of this committee, because to plead the fifth kind of has the connotation, I suppose that you have done something criminal, I was

Dr G 46:49gonna say, surely pleading, the fifth is already an implication of

Dr Rad 46:53kind of, I mean, like, it’s not really, that’s not really what it necessarily means, but it does have that connotation. Whereas the First Amendment, it’s more about fundamental freedom, like if you’re at risk

Dr G 47:04of incriminating yourself, doesn’t that make you criminal?

Dr Rad 47:07Well, I mean, this is the thing. No, it doesn’t have to, it’s more just the fact that obviously, you have the right not to incriminate yourself, maybe accidentally, but it just, it just has that connotation. So yeah. So that’s why it became a big thing because they took that stance that they were going to plead the First Amendment and argue this and it does not go well for them. And why? Yeah, yeah, that’s a shame. He’d been one of the he was he was known to be a political liberal. And he was one of the founding members of this group, which also included some very well known names like you know, Lauren Bacall, Humphrey Bogart. Yeah. Lots of people who would do you know, radio announcements, telling people look, this is what is happening right now. This is terrifying. We need to do something about it. We need to rally and show support. So there’s definitely some leftist feelings coming out of the screen writing. There’s just just like, catch Dr. G. O. Albert molts was riding the robe up until about 1946. I wonder if you can do some quick math for me and tell me what the problem is with that? Well, it’s

Dr G 48:10after the Second World War for the huge tech hearings? I don’t know. That’s exactly

Dr Rad 48:15right. It’s before the HUAC hearing. So how could he be making coded reference to the US hearings before the hearings?

Dr G 48:24I mean, the guy’s got four. So what can I say? He’s a smart man. And he saw it coming. Yeah. So

Dr Rad 48:33while says obviously potential for there to be some Anti Fascist stuff, because yeah, that album also sort of worked into the script. You know, in terms of what everyone’s just been going through with World War Two, it seems unlikely that Albert moulds would have been able to work in huge references before the huge hearings, that became a problem for him in 1947.

Dr G 48:59You do make a very sound argument and I am convinced,

Dr Rad 49:03I would like to claim this as my own but somebody else went into the archives in this effort. However, that still leaves the question of fill Phillip done. Okay.

Dr G 49:15Yes, sinister.

Dr Rad 49:18Well, not necessarily mean, I actually quite like the sound of him. He sounds like I’ve gotten a guy.

Dr G 49:23Philip is done. That’s what I’m told.

Dr Rad 49:26I suppose there are also they’re also supposed to pretend potential references to kind of like blacklisting and curricula being a somewhat McCarthy like figure particularly in that last big scene that you talked about. Okay, the way that he talks about the way he’s talking to Gallio in that final showdown of his seen,

Dr G 49:49also the way he has plants in the audience to backup his position, which, which aren’t enough to get it across the line anyway, which is kind of hilarious because you think As the Emperor he’d be able to buy off more people. But he’s then also immediately called out for this by Diana being like, that’s all you got the people you planted in the crowd.

Dr Rad 50:10I know she’s very outspoken. I love the fact that in both Demetrius and the Gladiator, and sorry, Demetrius of the Gladiators, and The Robe, we have these final scenes where Roman women are super outspoken in a public fora. Yeah, in a way that I think would not fly in reality. No, just laying into them. Yeah. But I think the thing that really came through for me when I was rewatching, it is that Marcellus is very clear to Caligula that look, this is just what I believe. I’m not trying to take down Rome, you know, I can, I can be loyal to both of you, which I think is very interesting, because that’s kind of the line that a lot of people who were brought up before the huge tech committee in the 1940s, and the 1950s, were trying to argue, the majority of them, I mean, particularly those who worked in Hollywood, sure, I’m sure there are some rogue communists out there in the states who were aiming higher, but in terms of the Hollywood people, they weren’t trying to take over the state.

Dr G 51:14And this is also I think, tapping into some bigger ideas that I think America at this time had about itself. And maybe these ideas linger today in various ways, which is when Marcellus makes this dichotomy between his ability to serve Rome, which is completely uncompromised and his perspective, and his personal interest in pursuing his beliefs, to the extent to which they don’t affect his capacity to serve Rome, is tapping into that idea of freedom of religion. And also, this vaunted, but potentially quite false idea of the separation of religion and state, which is a very modern invention. And once we look into any state system, almost completely unsupported by the evidence at play on the ground in any nation state of today.

Dr Rad 52:10Yeah, definitely. Now, one of the interesting things is that we do actually have a record of Maltz’s version of the script, which Philip Dunne would have used to develop his idea. And Maltz definitely had more scenes that develop this idea of the need for the naming of names. And it also included a bit more development with the character of Abbey door. Now Abbey door is the informant, that must sell us users to try and find out about the Christian, the Jewish slash Christian community that he is tracking down. So in Maltz’s, version, Marcellus actually gives avatar a coin in exchange for every name that is brought to him. These These were not kept, obviously in Dunne’s version, which begs the question, was it purely because if there’s already an incredibly long fail, or was it that by the time that done was working on the script, those sorts of references might have been seen as maybe too problematic?

Dr G 53:19Maybe unseemly, given the circumstances that we’re facing right now in Hollywood? Let’s not mention that.

Dr Rad 53:26Exactly. Yeah. Because it is no doubt that Philip Dunne is was somebody who was anti-HUAC, but the thing is, he was also anti communist. So the people that were part of this committee for the First Amendment, they weren’t necessarily communists themselves. In fact, I would say that generally, they were not communists at all. They were just people who thought that he work was wrong. And thought it was important to speak out against the freedoms that were to speak out because they were basic American freedoms that were being trampled on. And also because I presume, again, because of that natural affinity for people that you knew and people that you worked with being, you know, put in this horrible situation.

Dr G 54:11Yeah, look, I think that’s completely fair. You always want to stick up for your friends.

Dr Rad 54:16Yeah. So I mean, I guess it’s like one of those movies that in a way you can kind of read it, however you like, in that you can see it as being a critique of totalitarianism. Okay, it could be seen, as you know, you could see Caligula and the Romans as being kind of Stalinist communist figures and that you’re living in a repressive state, or you can read it as being I suppose, a critique of the kind of repression that was going on during the hue Acura, I think

Dr G 54:45it offers itself to a range of these sorts of interpretations and the importance of the positioning of the audience in this to very much be on the side of Marcellus and that unfolding personal journey Ready to understanding is part of the key way that it’s navigating all of these tension.

Dr Rad 55:06Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So overall, Dr. G, after, after us talking all about all these various contextual issues for the making of the room. What is your final impression of this film?

Dr G 55:21Oh look, I don’t want to see it again. I know, I like my Roman history to just be a little bit more grandiose. I don’t know that I’m into it as being a backdrop for some other sort of moral didacticism, which it feels very strongly as what’s going on here. I did enjoy the elder Tiberius, he seemed like the most reasonable guy around traps in this building.

Dr Rad 55:54Although I must admit, I thought you would pick up on this, did you pick up on the fact that Tiberius was very skeptical about Roman religious practices?

Dr G 56:03I mean, I suppose he should be. He’s seen enough in his time. And in terms of my overall I probably gonna give it maybe three stars, it’s clearly been very well put together for its time and its age. I want to see more Romans, the robe, it didn’t feel like it was well explained.

Dr Rad 56:26You mean how the magic worked.

Dr G 56:29Look, guys, what’s going on with this robe?

Dr Rad 56:33Well, I think it’s kind of interesting, because I suppose like a lot of blockbuster films these days. Interestingly, there was a bit of a divide between critics and the audience. So as I mentioned at the beginning, clearly it was well patronized, lots of people went to see it, you know, and I think that, that has to be partly put down to the fact that it was a new screen technology. And even though television might have been enticing people away from the movies a little bit, there’s still no way that a 1950s television could compete with the sort of star studded epics. That was so colorful. And you know, the other than that, you know, the sound has been so rich, and the colors were so dazzling. I don’t think television could really compete with these sorts of things. So I can see why the average person on the street with like them, but critics were a little bit more hesitant about this sort of film. So I did find an article which I will cite in the show notes, which had some of my favorite ways of summing up the robe, so I thought you might enjoy them as well. So from the New Statesman on the 28th of November 1953. Most of the film I have found dull and the rest nauseating.

Dr G 57:50Goodness me Well, that one’s not not enjoying it at all.

Dr Rad 57:54From the Daily Mail on the 20th of November 1953, fundamentally, distasteful

Dr G 58:00Distasteful.

Dr Rad 58:03From the evening news on the 20th of November 1953, just money down the drain. From the Evening Standard, on the 20th, November 1953, boring heavy faltered and ham fisted

Dr G 58:18look, I think I’d agree with that, to be honest,

Dr Rad 58:21from the Sunday Express on the 22nd of November, tediously earnest and crushingly sentimental. And finally, my favorite one from the Financial Times 20th of November 1953. Although why the Financial Times of reviewing the robe I will never know. A long lacrimose, high class sleeping draught.

Dr G 58:44I spent a lot of money and I napped very well. Thank you. Yeah, look, and I hear that I did find it tough to get through this film. And I will say that there is a moment where I expected the robe to really do itself justice. And the robe failed to show up. And that’s the moment where Demetrius is clearly at death’s door. Oh, sure. Yeah, there at Marcellus, his dad’s house, and the Roman physician is there. And he’s like, look, there are limits to what science can achieve. It’s like I can’t put the blood back in his body. And yeah, kind of gives up on it. And then he walks out there, we have pee to go in. I was like, it’s now time for the robe. Surely a healthy application of the robe is going to fix this guy. But not only do we not get to see it, but it doesn’t seem like the robe was involved. There’s some other miracle happening there. And I was like, Guys, you really missed a trick. The robe could have done the job, and it would have made the magic. palpably real for everybody at that point.

Dr Rad 59:52I know exactly what you mean. But it since they were already planning a sequel, lest we forget that that’s what cures Demetrius’ love in Demetrius and the Gladiators, part two of The Robe. So I wonder if they knew that that was going to be the plot device for that. Alright. I don’t want to undercut the power of the robe. No, yeah, you can’t, you got to overuse a piece of fabric. And of course,

Dr G 1:00:14I went into this already knowing that piece of information because we’ve talked about the sequel before we’ve talked about the original. So I was kind of like, surely it’s robe time, just to wave the robe over and gently have a stand. Yeah, that’s a little blanket. And it’s like, he’s gonna come good. Trust me. We know this. But they don’t. And I was like, Ah,

Dr Rad 1:00:35I wonder if it’s because they needed to make use of, you know, Peter, a little bit more St. Peter. They needed his talents on display. I mean, he was

Dr G 1:00:42definitely under utilized in this film. I think I was like, Why is he here? He’s got to get to Rome. Somehow. I suppose.

Dr Rad 1:00:49I met the guy who plays him. I mean, come on, he really does look like something out of a DaVinci painting. I love that guy. Like already, hats off to you definitely has the look. Yeah, yeah. And I think we mentioned this when we talked about Demetrius and the gladiators. Lest we forget that Christianity became a vehicle for showing your patriotism in this time period in America. And we all know how much Americans love and showing their patriotism. And so it was kind of like one of those things where if the Soviets your enemy in the Cold War, godless communists, then Americans, freedom loving Christians, and so going to church every week was a sign of not only your personal religious faith, but your loyalty to America and your patriotism. So I kind of presume that going to the sorts of films, it must have been something that was very much a part of the, you know, the general vibe, particularly in certain areas in America in this time period.

Dr G 1:01:56Oh, yeah, definitely. And I can imagine there’d be people trying to sell the robe after you left the cinema as well.

Dr Rad 1:02:05Well, funny, you should mention that because I do have another statistic here from also another article that I will cite in the show notes. That said that tells me that between 1950 and 1963 Ancient World epics topped the US box office in seven out of the 13 years, so I don’t so we have Samson and Delilah, Victor Mature in 1950. David and Bathsheba in 1951, The Robe in 1953. Then there’s a little bit of a lull, is it because of The Robe?

Dr G 1:02:39Probably everybody’s like I brought all my tickets. I really can’t afford to go to the cinema.

Dr Rad 1:02:44The Ten Commandments in 1957 Ben Hur in 1960s Spartacus in 1962 and Cleopatra in 1963. And Quo Vadis in 1952 was second only pipped at the post by the greatest show on earth. Wow. And this is the same. This is the thing whilst we might say okay, so maybe there’s a bit of a yearning for Christianity in this time period because of the cold war. But it’s the same way the world over. Now. To be fair, the world is more Christian, as in there are more people that would probably identify as Christians in general, in this time period, as well. So perhaps not surprising, but they don’t have to go and see it to show their loyalty to their governments or whatever they’re trying to do. So that’s true. Yeah, yeah. But I thought I wanted to use this to sum up with, okay, the road, we’ve done it, I agree with you. It’s not my favorite, although I do love Richard Burton and Gene Simmons, as actors in this film, and I do enjoy a bit of curricula. I actually think I enjoyed Demetrius and the gladiators more. But I thought a good way of summing this up was to take this little snippet from a Sunday Times critic called Delos Powell. She wrote something which I really enjoyed, which were the Scripture prizes 1932 to 1961. Are you ready for the awards? Dr. G?

Dr G 1:04:06I’m ready.

Dr Rad 1:04:07Okay. The award for most vulgar film goes to the side of the cross. Applause Applause Applause

And that’s a film from the 1930s. The award for Most nauseating film goes to Quo Vadis.

The award for the most exhausting film goes to The Ten Commandments.

Dr G 1:04:38That is exhausting as true.

Dr Rad 1:04:40The award for the most nondescript film goes to The Robe.

Dr G 1:04:47Nondescript, yeah,

Dr Rad 1:04:50the award for the most luxurious bloodbaths goes to Samson and Delilah. The award for the most idiotic additional dialogue goes to the big fisherman. award for the most genteel orgy goes to Solomon and Sheba.

Dr G 1:05:15She’s just making these categories up.

Dr Rad 1:05:18Yeah, that’s the point. And finally, a special chariot race award goes to Ben Hur,

Dr G 1:05:29Hur hur hur. I mean, I’d be very surprised if it went to The Fall of the Roman Empire. But it’s up there.

Dr Rad 1:05:38Oh, I think that would definitely be number two, surely. And I will I very much like talking to you about the road because whilst the robe might not actually be the most flashy of the ethics of the Golden Age in the 1950s, it certainly has a lot of the things that I like to talk about, which is the war on television, the studio system at play modern politics, in terms of the foundation of the State of Israel, and of course, American domestic politics, the background of the huge tech hearings and the hunt for reds under the bed.

Dr G 1:06:19Yes, wow. Caligula did have a very red robe and that should be a hint to anybody

Dr Rad 1:06:25Absolutely.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

What do you get when Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus and Aulus Cornelius Cossus return in our source material? The continuation of a beautiful bromance.

After an unfortunate amount of disease and destruction in our last episode, we return to Rome for some classic political and military action.

The Romans are ready to put a year of horrible drought behind them and seek revenge on Veii and the ongoing thorn in their side. Fidenae. It also turns out that war is the perfect backdrop for some male bonding.

Episode 135 – Building the Bromance

Jupiter as my Witness!

Before the Romans can get involved in any conflicts with Veii, there are rules of warfare that need to be observed. It is time for the fetiales! With Jupiter as their witness, they will make sure that Rome only goes to war in the right circumstances.

663x1024.jpg" alt="A fresco of Jupiter from Pompeii, apparently being crowned by Victory." class="wp-image-4451">

Fresco of Jupiter, National Archaeological Museum of Naples (inv. nr.9551).From Pompeii, House of the Dioscuri, dating to the 1st century CE, so much later than the 420s BCE! Jupiter was invoked by thefetiales during their rituals.Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons.

Building the Bromance

The Romans elect military tribunes with consular power as they embark on their war with Veii. Unfortunately, the tribunes don’t have a talent for teamwork. It’s time for a dictator!

Our old friend Cossus nominates Mamercus Aemilius as dictator. In return, Aemilius makes Cossus his Master of the Horse. The bromance between these two is so strong that Veii doesn’t stand a chance. They are the Roman equivalent of Batman and Robin.

Watch out Etruscans! The caped crusaders are out to get you.

West-and-Burt-Ward-i-010-1024x614.jpg" alt="Adam West as Batman and Burt Ward as Robin. They are standing outside on a bright sunny day and look like they are intent on solving a problem together." class="wp-image-4352">

The classic duo: is that Mamercus and Cossus or Batman and Robin? When we squint, we can’t even tell, that’s how strong the bromance is here.

Things to Look Out For:

• More confusion over consuls  
• Murder most foul
• Birds in the sky (they might be trying to tell you something)
• Smugness from Mamercus
• Fiery combat
• Did we write a book? Oh boy, yes we did! If you enjoy the podcast, this might be just the ticket. You can purchase our popular history Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome HERE
• Interested in the first instalment of the bromance between Cossus and Mamercus? We’ve got you covered – that’d be Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae

Our Players 427 BCE

Consuls

• C. Servilius – f. – n. Structus Ahala (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 419, 418, 417
• L. Papirius (L. f. – n.) Mugillanus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 422

Our Players 426 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos 431, 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 420?
• C. Furius – f. – n. Pacilus Fusus (Pat) Cos. 441
• M. Postumius A. ? f. A.? n. Albinus Regillensis? (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 403?
• A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Cos. 428

Dictator

• Mam. Aemilius M. f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat)

Master of the Horse

• A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Cos. 428a, Mil. Tr. c. p. 426

Legates

• T. Quinctius Poenus Cincinattus (Pat) Cos. 431, Mil. tr. c. p. 426, 420?

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.78.1, 12.80.1; Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 12.6; Valerius Maximus 3.2.4; Frontinus Stratagems 2.4.18-19, 2.8.9; Florus 1.6.7; Aurelius Victor De Viris Illustribus urbis Romae 25; Orosius 2.13.8-11
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.31-34.

• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 
• Santangelo, F. 2008. ‘The Fetials and Their Ius’. Bulletin: Institute of Classical Studies 51:1, 63-93.

Sound Effects

Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and Pixabay.

Thanks to the fabulous Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

520-obelisk-art-history-512x1024.png" alt="The Apollo of Veii, dated to around 550-520 BCE. This is a terracotta artefact that is now held in the National Etruscan Museum in Rome." class="wp-image-4457">

The Apollo of Veii, dated to around 550-520 BCE. This is a terracotta artefact that is now held in the National Etruscan Museum in Rome.Source: Obelisk Art History Project.

Automated Transcript

Transcript generated by Otter AI. Edited by Dr G for those tricky Latin names!

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:19we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:22Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:33And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43Join us, as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:54Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting with me in the realm of cyberspace.

Dr Rad 1:09Is Dr. Rad. That’s cyberspace.

Dr G 1:17I feel ya, I feel ya. And we are tracing the history of Rome from the foundation of the city. And hoo-we, we have made it out of the 430s and scraped into the 420s. And we are about to look at 427 BCE. But before we do that, perhaps we should do a bit of a recap of where we’re up to in the narrative.

Dr Rad 1:47I was just thinking to myself, how do you recap nothing? How do you recap, the nothingness that was the previous three years?

Dr G 1:58Well, I mean, it’s not like there was absolutely nothing. There was a drought, there were some there was some bad news. And there was a truce made between the Aequians and the Romans.

Dr Rad 2:10Definitely, like there was some stuff going on. But by the standards that we have come to expect of Rome, it was it was low, it was low.

Dr G 2:20And I think we can attribute part of the fallowness of those years to the source material. As much as Livy is still with us. He did say that nothing happened.

Dr Rad 2:33He did, I can’t deny it. But also, I feel like this has to do a lot with what we’ve been talking about for a really long time now, literally years for us. So decades. For the Romans, we talked about the fact that there does seem to have been this really tough time in Roman history. If we look at the archaeological record, I thought we were looking at a tough time in the late 450s and into the 440s. But I had no idea what was awaiting us in the 430s. It is out of control.

Dr G 3:10Yeah, there’s heaps of problems with like, what might be going on with how Rome is in central Italy in this period. And, as we’ve noted before, there’s not any sort of extensive record of a building programme, we’ve had some references to what this new temple to Apollo come up in the last few years, but that’s the first building we’ve heard about in a while.

Dr Rad 3:33They’re suspicious of that building now.

Dr G 3:36Yes,

Dr Rad 3:36Just slightly, just slightly

Dr G 3:37That temple. Can we trust Apollo? That God looks fishy to me. And so they have a sense in which their competition with their neighbours is so all consuming that it makes it very difficult to make progress at home. And that’s just adding into what is the broader confusion, which is all of our source material, generally speaking, comes from centuries later, where they’re unsure about what happened. And they’re trying to figure it out from the limited records that have survived from this period. And they’re a little bit all over the shop. So we’re in some trying times, and that’s okay. We’ll just keep going.

Dr Rad 4:23Look, I’m excited because the next couple of years, I know that there’s potential for some very dramatic things to happen. So let’s get into it, Dr. G. Let’s head into 427 BCE!

Dr G 5:20It is 427 BCE and Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.

Dr Rad 5:29Fair enough. Well, once again, you know, I’m very good sharer. You should have the magistrates you should have that honour.

Dr G 5:36Oh, thank you. Thank you. Well, I don’t have many to report for this year. We apparently have the names of the consuls. So we’ve got Gaius Servilius Structus Ahala. Ahala!

Dr Rad 5:54Ahala the armpit.

Dr G 5:58Ahala.

Dr Rad 5:59Yes, the famous armpit. Yeah.

Dr G 6:01Well, yeah, so I was gonna say if this name sounds familiar, it’s because we’ve already had a very infamous Gaius Servilius Ahala, the armpit as master of the horse in 439, who was responsible for or scapegoated as the person responsible for the assassination of Spurius Maeilus, also known as the Nacho King. And so this is big news because literally the same name, but we do think that they’re different people. This seems to be the next one down the line.

Dr Rad 6:39He was meant to be sent into exile, wasn’t he?

Dr G 6:41Well yeah, he was sent into exile. We don’t seem to hear from him again. And do have this name Structus stuck in this guy for this year. And that name is not present for our previous Gaius Servilius Ahala. So okay, we don’t really we’re not really sure, but it does seem to be slightly different guy.

Dr Rad 7:04Okay.

Dr G 7:05So possibly the eldest son of the infamous armpit because the Ahala name is one of these cognomens, so it’s one of these sort of individualising names. But how many people could be known by their armpit?

Dr Rad 7:21I’ve never thought about it. I never thought.

Dr G 7:25I mean, if this is a nickname, I don’t know, but maybe it’s inherited. And our second consul is Lucius Papirius Mugillanus.

Dr Rad 7:35Papirius again!

Dr G 7:39Another Papirii so this gens is doing well for themselves. But this guy is new. Mugillanus is a new figure that we haven’t really come across before. This seems to be connected, potentially, to a family from the Latin town of Mugilla.

Dr Rad 7:59Okay.

Dr G 8:00Don’t bother trying to find it on any maps because we don’t know where it was.

Dr Rad 8:05Then Moogly up to the server at night. All right, look, I’ve got a little bit of detail about this year. So let’s get into it. I think you’ll see the pace is starting to build up again. So this is a good sign. So, as is typical for Livy, we’ve had this horrible drought, causing all sorts of problems in terms of disease, death, chaos

Dr G 8:29Mange.

Dr Rad 8:30In the previous year. Yeah, it’s all bad. But it’s miraculously just all over now. We’re on to new things, and the Romans feel well enough to seek vengeance against Veii who, lest we forget, seem to have been conducting some raids into Roman territory over the past year or two.

Dr G 8:50All right, I’m just gonna interrupt you there because it’s clearly rained, which means and this is one for the Australian listeners, Marge, the rains are here!

Dr Rad 9:04Classic Simpsons reference and in the previous episode, we had a great Seinfeld reference, we’re basking in the glory of the 90s.

Dr G 9:12It’s all happening.

Dr Rad 9:13It is alright, so they want to deal with Veii. Okay, and we’ve got our consuls as you said. However, it was decided that they could not declare war on Veii straightaway. So we know that there’s been this niggling backwards and forwards, but it was iffy about whether they were actually you know, still at war, like it was like an ongoing conflict that they could just renew. And I guess it was decided that it was best to be cautious and therefore presume that they weren’t really already at war with they, and therefore this means that some of your favourites the fetiales have to go through their procedures before anything else can happen. So I thought this might actually be a good time to sort of review, what it is that these people do?

Dr G 10:03Oh, yeah, look, the fetiales is some of my favourite priests. So they come in pairs. And they roam about the countryside looking for just war. so

Dr Rad 10:14Sounds very noble when you put it like that

Dr G 10:17One of them is dressed very fancily, one of them’s not. And they go around together, if if Rome is in the mood, where they’re like, we really do think that possibly conflict is on the horizon, is it going to be just in the eyes of the gods, then they get the fetiale crew out and about, and they have a very particular job, they’ve got a walk towards the territory, which Rome has a problem with. And as they walk along, they sort of announced periodically that they are seeking some sort of like righting of the relationship between Rome and this place, particularly when they get to what is considered to be the borderland between the two and before they step over into the symbolic other place, then they keep going, and periodically keep saying the things until they start to encounter people of that land. And you know, the message starts to spread, and these to continue onwards towards the major city centre of whatever place it is, and continue to announce, and they make some demands being like, you need to really liaise with Rome, otherwise, it’s going to be a bit problematic, then they wait a specified period of time for an answer. And if they get one, that’s fine, they take it back to Rome, and they start to figure things out from there. If they don’t get one, they head back to Rome. And they’re like, I think it might be time to consider a just war. And so then they go out again, and they do a bit of spear throwing into the other territory. And check out how the gods react to that. And if it’s all looking good. War is just and may commence in the eyes of the god.

Dr Rad 11:51Yeah, absolutely. They have this really interesting position where to quote the article that will be in our sources. So if you want to have a look at this article in full, please do they are in a sense, the people that preside over the rights that precede a war begin a war and at the end of the war, as well. And they serve this really interesting role as the kind of judges slash guardians of the peace of Rome, which I like as a nice little way of conjuring up what it is they do. And their role changed over time, as we shall see, it’s not it’s not always exactly the same.

Dr G 12:33Look, there’s nothing like a good twist on the tale, or like these are priests that are definitely involved in war. So to suggest that they’re very much involved with peace is fascinating and hilarious.

Dr Rad 12:45Well, yes. I mean, I think in terms of, you know, as you say, it’s about are the Romans going to war for the right reasons should peace be broken, I suppose in order to go to war in that sense. Yes. Anyway, so we have the fetiales going through their proper procedures, okay. And we know, of course, there has been some conflicts with Rome and Veii because they were involved in the whole issue, over Fidenae, the colony that was and then wasn’t, and then was, but doesn’t seem to be committing to it wholeheartedly. You know, it’s all very iffy with Veii and Fidenae at this point in time, I think we can definitely say that, if what the accounts that were given are correct. Rome is really struggling to assert itself in this whole decade in this part of Italy.

Dr G 13:39Yeah, they can send as many fetiales as they like searching for just war, but they can’t hold it together. And they can’t seem to retain the things that they have laid out as their own. So Fidenae was theirs. And they’re definitely struggling to hold on to it at this point.

Dr Rad 13:57Yeah. So after the whole issue that they had had over Fidenae, they had a truce with Veii that had expired, admittedly, but the Romans still see the need to obviously declare war properly. So the fetiales go out and do their business, but rudely, they are completely ignored.

Dr G 14:17Yeah, amazing. Well, I mean, let’s face it, let’s imagine you imagine the time these two weirdos from Rome, one of them dress very fancily, and the other one sort of like he’s offsider and they sort of approaching and they’re doing this sort of like, did you know that you are not in right relation with Rome?

Dr Rad 14:42Like ah, yeah, I think I just stole your cow.

Dr G 14:46They’re like, Well, sure, but whatever. And then the you know, like they walk another 50 metres and like, did you know that you’re not a right relation with Rome, and you know, like waving a fancy stick and stuff. And I can see how some people might not take them very seriously. Or, conversely realise the import of these two people and just laugh in their faces being like, this is how your gonna win the war. Really?

Dr Rad 15:18I feel like the people of Veii are not particularly interested in preserving peaceful relations at this moment in time. So.

Dr G 15:26And they probably have good confidence for that.

Dr Rad 15:28Yeah. Well, should they though? Should they?

Dr G 15:31Well, well, I guess we’ll find out.

Dr Rad 15:36Anyway, so it’s obvious that a war is going to happen. A controversy breaks out over who has the right to actually declare the war? Is it the Senate or the people?

Wha-whoa

Turf war. Yeah. So I think it’s, I think it’s seen as like standard procedure at this point in time that the people are generally the ones that decide whether they are going to go to war. But they’re starting to say, well, do we need to take it to the people? Is the senatorial decree enough? Now, again, this is probably a little bit anachronistic, I am not entirely confident in this idea of a senatorial decree, at this point in Rome’s history. Now we are getting later, maybe I’m being overly cautious.

Dr G 16:25We’re in this very hazy period where it’s hard to say. So from thinking about how Rome works. And we’re not sure like that’s, that’s where we’re at in terms of the scholarship, we’re not entirely sure how it’s working at this point in time. What we do know is that, generally speaking, the Roman people are involved in decisions relating to war, because it relates to things that they’re specifically going to have to do.

Dr Rad 16:57Yeah.

Dr G 16:57And the Senate has lots of mechanisms and levers to push and pull those people in particular ways. This is not a democracy. But surely, the Senate has enough of its own levers still, to be able to persuade the people one way or the other. I would have thought this would suggest if we’re looking at something where the Senate is like, well, we’re just going to make that decision for everybody. That would seem to suggest to me that they’ve actually lost control of the populace.

Dr Rad 17:29Hmm, interesting take. So the tribunes ended up winning this argument, which kind of makes sense. I would kind of expect them to be the people who are representing the people. And they say, look, you’re going to let the people say whether it’s war or not, because if you don’t, then we’re going to screw up your levy. And then who’s going to fight for you, Senate? Who, who?

Dr G 17:56Dear Lucretia, I didn’t sign up for the levy this year. But somehow I’m still in the battlefield. I don’t know how it happened.

Dr Rad 18:03I am apart from you. And it is so painful, because I do not know why.

Dr G 18:10I didn’t sign up for this. And I don’t know why I’m here.

Dr Rad 18:14So what ends up happening is and this is a bit weird, Livy, or at least the versions of it that I’m reading, so it might be a typo. I probably should have checked the Latin I was a bit slack and I didn’t, the consul Quinctius, which is weird, because we haven’t mentioned a Quinctius in this year.

Dr G 18:30Yeah, that’s a surprise. Where does it Quinctius? Where is he coming from?

Dr Rad 18:35I’m wondering if he means like the ex-consul Quinctius, that’s something I probably should have checked in the Latin that me. But anyway, he’s forced to present the question of war to the people. And you know what, it all ends up exactly how they wanted it anyway, because the centuries all vote for war anyway.

Dr G 18:52Well, well, well. So I mean, it turns out that, in actuality, flesh rabbits, cause we’re still not really sure what’s going on, that the Senate gets their way by using the very levers that it already possesses in order to ensure that the people do what they want them to do, because we know that that voting system is I mean, by any measure of a modern standard completely rigged.

This this artificial tension. It’s really probably not anywhere near as dramatic as it sounds.

The people agree to the thing that they’ve been convinced to agree to, and war shall proceed.

Dr Rad 19:35Yeah. And the rich people have most of the say.

Dr G 19:39Hmm.

Dr Rad 19:39Either way. Either way you look at it.

Dr G 19:42I mean, does it sound like the modern world?

Dr Rad 19:45I don’t know. The modern world is just such a delight filled with equality and justice.

Dr G 19:52Indeed.

Dr Rad 19:54So this takes me to the year that I’ve been very excited to get to for actually a number of episodes.

Dr G 20:00Oh, okay, well hold that thought. I only have, I only have one more detail to add about this year.

Dr Rad 20:06I was going to say, what detail are you adding?

Dr G 20:09Before we vacate 427, I just want to draw attention to what appears to be the naming conventions in some of the Fasti records that we have attached to this year for Mr. Armpit himself. Ahala. Yeah, because in the Greek this comes through as Axilla. And in one of the Latin Fastis that comes through as Achillo. So we get this sense that there is a potential sort of like Achillius naming convention that might be coming through here where Ahala has been substituted in instead, or there’s been a merging of those names over time. Anyway. Yeah, not that I see this guy as being in any way resemblance of Achilles. But, I mean, we don’t really know what he did. But I thought it was an interesting little detail.

Dr Rad 21:09Yeah, like until he has a temper tantrum and really stuffs things up for everyone, I’m not convinced.

Dr G 21:15The other thing that’s worth noting is Diodorus Siculus gets the names right for both consuls this year.

Dr Rad 21:22Wow.

Dr G 21:25Yeah, bringing his a game to this year.

Dr Rad 21:28He is. All right. So that takes us to 426 BCE. At last!

Dr G 21:34We’re here this year is filled with drama, and people and potentially lots of stuff.

Dr Rad 21:41Absolutely. So I don’t know about you, Dr. G. But instead of consuls, I’ve got military tribunes with consular power.

Dr G 21:48Oh, yes. I got some of those as well.

Dr Rad 21:51Alright, tell me.

Dr G 21:52So we have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus,

Dr Rad 21:57Who might be the Quinctius who Livy is talking about

Dr G 21:59Indeed, in the previous year.

Dr Rad 22:02Yeah.

Dr G 22:02So he has been consul twice so far, 431 and in 428, and is now back in this new position. With consular power. We have Gaius Furius Pacilus Fusus.

Dr Rad 22:19Yeah, it’s been ages since we had a Furius – whoo!

Dr G 22:23A Furius returns.

Dr Rad 22:24Yeah.

Dr G 22:25And he was apparently also previously consul in 441, so this guy’s gotta be getting on a little bit, because it’s been a while.

Dr Rad 22:32Yeah, it has.

Dr G 22:33And he was also censor in 435. So they’ve done quite a few censorships as well. It’s been, it’s been tough times for the Romans. Our third military tribune with consular power is Marcus Postumius Albinus Regillensis. A new guy in town. Don’t be fooled all of those names add up to somebody different. And Aulus Cornelius Cossus, the best looking Roman that everybody’s ever known about.

Dr Rad 23:04Absolutely.

Dr G 23:05Very famous. Is this the year he’s famous for?

Dr Rad 23:10I think it might be. We also have a dictator, don’t we?

Dr G 23:15Yeah. So this year, it gets out of hand. So the thing that we tend to assume with military tribunes with consular power is that there is a lot of conflict going on, and Rome doesn’t know how to deal with it anymore. And they need more consuls, essentially. And so they’ve whacked a whole bunch of those people into play. Turns out or it seems initially just from reading this list that that is not enough to deal with this situation and a dictator is required. And this is Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus.

Dr Rad 23:45A familiar name.

Dr G 23:46Yeah, he was part of the special commission in 428. So just a couple of years ago, and you know this name crops up a little bit as well. Was he also the dictator of 437 and 434? Was he milit- was he military tribune in 438? It’s a common name. So he has a master of the horse and we see very quickly the return of Aulus Cornelius Cossus getting apparently upgraded from a military tribune with consular power to master the horse.

Dr Rad 24:20I think these guys are Batman and Robin I think that they are the dynamic duo of this decade.

Dr G 24:26I can’t possibly do it without your Cossus. Would you join me? Yes, sir.

Dr Rad 24:31All right, well,

Dr G 24:32oh wait oh wait, because apparently we also have a legate as well

Dr Rad 24:38Okay

Dr G 24:39Which is Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. So, so we have this weird sort of, I would say just looking at this list that we are looking at some real confusion from our annalistic sources and our fasti source material. Very confusing. We’ve either got many people in multiple roles, or we’ve got a collapse in the chronology and people don’t know how to separate the years out into the individual pieces, and they’ve just lumped them all in together and they’re like, You know what? I’ll make it work.

Dr Rad 25:13Yeah, I think that you can see this very much, because if you actually look at what Livy says, rather than look at Broughton’s record of the magistrates. Livy explicitly says that Titus Quinctius Poenas was consul in the previous year. So that’s a bit weird. And then we’ve got Gaius Furius, Marcus Postumius, Aulua Cornelius Cossus all serving as military tribunes. Now, what they do is they’re going to divide and conquer, Dr. G. So Cossus is placed in charge of the city of Rome itself, and the rest of the military tribunes start organising the levy because they of course, are going to go and kick Veii’s butt and it is a big butt. There is a problem. Yeah, there is a problem. You’ve got three of these guys. They’re, I imagine, pretty typical Roman elites. They’re all very confident in their own opinion, and they refuse to compromise. And so they very quickly start disagreeing with each other, which means that there’s a little sliver of light for the people of Veii, because this is going to be undermining for the whole Roman war effort. The army is really confused because they’re being given different instructions, different orders, you know, some of them are saying, now go sound the charge other than saying no, not yet. Stay in place. It’s just it’s just a big mess where he’s messy us at a time like this. He’s the man has a job. Yeah. So the Romans are in terrible trouble. They flee back to their camp. They’re not really physically injured or anything, but they are injured on the inside, because there is nothing more humiliating or shameful for a Roman soldier than having to tuck his tail between his legs and run back to his camp without having dominated over the entity.

Dr G 27:09It is tough out there, isn’t it.

Dr Rad 27:12Yeah, so the Romans are sitting around, crushed, forlorn, heartbroken deal to lose They’re the heroes in this story. They never lose.

Dr G 27:22I got no spoils and I got nothing to send, ya.

Dr Rad 27:27Now the people back in the city are so irritated. You can’t explain how irritated they are with the military tribunes and they’re like, you know what, forget you guys, you are useless. It’s time for a dictator. Now, it seems like once again, we have a bit of an argument about exactly how or even if this could come about, some people were saying earlier consul can name a dictator. And do we have a consul? No, we do not.

Dr G 28:01No, but we do have lots of military tribunes with consular power. And if they have the consular power, that might mean they’re they’re able to do the thing. And

Dr Rad 28:11I think you’re missing the point, they’re not a consul.

Dr G 28:16Well, what’s the point of them having consular power if they can’t use it? Dionysius of Halicarnassus does have a little excerpt here.

Dr Rad 28:26Oh, okay.

Dr G 28:28Yeah. And he talks about when Aulua Cornelius Cossus was consul for the second time.

Dr Rad 28:38Okay.

Dr G 28:39And that’s problematic for a whole bunch of reasons.

Dr Rad 28:42Sure.

Dr G 28:43Partly because maybe what he goes on to say, should really go back to 428. Right, but we’re in maybe 426 as well. So for instance, there’s a whole bunch of sort of like Dionysius comes back, but like to what value because he talks about a land that has suffered from a severe drought, all the moisture, and the flowing streams have dried up so you know, the echoes of Livy here?

Dr Rad 29:16Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 29:17The sheep, beasts of burden, and cattle have disappeared.

Dr Rad 29:21Oh, this all sounds very familiar. Don’t take me back there!

Dr G 29:26Humans have been visited by many diseases.

Dr Rad 29:28Yeah, yeah. Deja vu.

Dr G 29:31Particularly the mange

Dr Rad 29:34oh my god,

Dr G 29:35yeah, dreadful pains in the skin with its itchings and ulcerations, a most pitable affliction, and the cause of the speediest of deaths. I mean, it doesn’t sound like mange, it sounds like Ebola, but I’ll give it to them. They’re calling it as they see it. But we have this issue because he talks about this is the time period when Cossus and Quinctius are consuls together.

Dr Rad 29:59Hmm

Dr G 30:00And that’s that’s a weird thing to say. But they’re definitely both military tribunes with consular power right now.

Dr Rad 30:08Yeah, look, I think I can help you out here. It’s actually quite straightforward. Dionysius is wrong and Livy is right.

Dr G 30:15Wow

Dr Rad 30:15it’s just really obvious and I’m glad I could clear it up for you and everyone.

Dr G 30:26I don’t know if I’m gonna buy what you’re putting down but

Dr Rad 30:30All right, is that is that all the Dionysius has to say?

Dr G 30:32Yeah, look, I mean, things get pretty wayward for me in this year in terms of source material. Just to give you a sense of like, where this is going, I’ve got some Diodorus Siculus. I’ve got some Valerius Maximus, I’ve got some Frontinus. Two different passages from Frontinus. I’ve got Florus, I’ve got Aurelius Victor, Pseudo-Aurelius Victor and Orosius.

Dr Rad 30:55Okay

Dr G 30:55So it’s all manner of craziness over here for like, trying to figure out what to do with this year. But it tells you that something’s gonna happen, I think. And you might know what it is, even though I’ve got no idea despite all the sources I looked at.

Dr Rad 31:09I think I do. So we’ve gotten this argument about whether you actually consul to name a dictator, so they ended up turning to the augurs which I thought would be something that would excite you. So, the augurs are a religious position, do you want to tell us a bit about what it is that they do? I had, I hear it’s something to do with the bird life?

Dr G 31:31Yeah, look, it’s the sort of thing that could go wrong if you decide to not follow the rituals like they did a couple of years ago. You know, like, imagine if you decided to start reading the bird signs differently. The augurs have a very specific role. So part of it is dividing up the sky into quadrants, first of all, and then looking and observing the way that birds move in the sky to determine the will of the gods. And the reason why you might be like, I mean, I’ve seen birds fly, not that interesting. But one of the things that they’re really interested in is those murmurations that you get of starlings as they shift through the air, which are really quite poetic and beautiful. And they’re considered to tell us something, but they’re interested in all variety of bird life really, vultures, eagles, whatever they can see, it’s all got some sort of meaning. And the augurs have been integral to the Roman’s self definition since time in memorial

Dr Rad 32:34Indeed they have. So the augurs are consulted, and they make sure that the signs say that it is not only a council who could name a dictator.

Dr G 32:45Well, that makes it easy.

Dr Rad 32:46Yeah. So Aulua Cornelius Cossus picks Mamercus Aemilius as dictator and Mamercus Aemilius then names Cossus as his master of the horse. Aren’t they are adorable.

Dr G 33:00These two like, will you be my buddy? I’ll be your buddy. If you’ll be my buddy.

Dr Rad 33:05It’s a bromance to last the centuries, Dr G. Yeah. So now, just a bit of a recap here. Lest we forget the last time that we were talking about Mamercus Aemilius which okay, there are some question marks about whether we should have been talking about him in that time period. but we were, he was taken down by the censors in a pretty devastating way. He basically I mean, they basically took away some of his key rights as a citizen, like they kicked him out of his tribe.

Dr G 33:35Intense.

Dr Rad 33:37Yeah.

Dr G 33:38But he seems to have bounced back from this.

Dr Rad 33:41Well, this is the thing Livy comments that this guy was so amazing, that he just rises to the top when it’s a dangerous time for Rome. You know, I mean, suck it censors. The best revenge is a life well lived. You know, you can’t take it away from me.

Dr G 33:58He must be charismatic, I’m guessing.

Dr Rad 34:01I think so. Livy was all over him the last time like when we were talking about what the census did to him live, he was clearly devastated. And now he’s all happy again. Anyway, the people have they are thrilled in the meantime, because they’ve done so well against Rome. They’re like, oh, my god, this is amazing. So they send out word to other Etruscan cities, they’re like, yeah, we didn’t just take down one Roman commander, we took down three in just one battle, only. The Etruscans are not interested. They’re like, whatever.

Dr G 34:35I wonder what the Etruscans by and large, are really doing. I mean, we know that they’re located generally, to the north, but Veii is like their most southern significant outpost. Yeah. And they really don’t tend to do a lot of reinforcement, or at least not in this period.

Dr Rad 34:52Look, let that be a lesson to you. It’s the same issues that the Greeks had: unity. Unity is what is important. Don’t go back to each other up because you do anyway. So the Etruscans are not interested. However, there are some people who are interested in joining their cause because of course, whenever there’s this kind of thing going on, like reading whatever, there is bougie aplenty for everyone. So officially, not many people are interested, but there are some. And would you be shocked to know that one of the places that decide that they might join in is none other than Fidenae?

Dr G 35:35Oh, colour me surprised. This is a turn in the narrative I was not expecting.

Dr Rad 35:40Yep. So Fidenae. I mean, god, what is it at this point in time, it’s been going backwards and forwards with its allegiances so many times between Rome and the people of Veii I can’t even tell what ethnicity the people there would have been.

Dr G 35:55Look like everybody in this region. They’re Italians.

Dr Rad 35:59Okay, yes. Anyway, so they decided they’re going to throw their lot in with Veii. Again, because it went so well, the last time.

Dr G 36:07Well look, to be honest, I think Fidenae had been pretty consistent in their desire to get away from Rome for at least a few years now. And they’ve been forced and coerced by the Romans back into the fold. And at every opportunity, they’d be like, nah, I’m with those guys.

Dr Rad 36:25How dare you provide an anti imperial narrative when I’m trying to make Rome look good?

Dr G 36:32I’ve got nothing to say to that.

Dr Rad 36:34Dad, dad, dad, dad out data.

Dr G 36:38I mean, anyway, they’re working on it.

Dr Rad 36:41Anyway, so Fidenae, obviously, as you say, not happy with what’s going on. But they decided to do it in style, just like they did the first time. So lest we forget, the really big conflict that we talked about, which may or may not have happened about 10 years ago, was really kicked off when the people of Fidenae murdered the Roman ambassadors. This time, they decide they’re going to slaughter all the new settlers.

Dr G 37:11Well, well, well, I mean, yeah, this is bad news. But it does echo very nicely what has previously happened.

Dr Rad 37:22Yeah, I mean, I think we can understand why scholars are like, what is going on here? Did this really happen again? Or is there some confusion in the narrative because there are a lot of similar notes that are being struck here.

Dr G 37:37And there’s also the sense of like, I mean, this is yet again, another candidate for the year that Cossus does the business with killing Lars Tolumnius? That guy keeps coming back from the dead. Tell you what,

Dr Rad 37:52Well he hasn’t been mentioned by name. But yes. Anyway, so there’s a bit of a debate about where they’re going to set up their headquarters. Veii or Fidenae, but they decided that Fidenae was more suitable. So the people of Veii head on over there and set up. The Romans are freaking out.

Dr G 38:09And this and fair enough, because it’s on. As I’ve noted before, like Fidenae sits on the opposite side of the Tiber, from Veii, which means that it technically sits on the Roman side of the Tiber. And the Tiber is considered this, like, you know, the point between the two territories. And so if you’ve got that foothold in Fidenae and the Fidenese, like let down their little bridge, or whatever, or the who knows how they did it, and they’re like, come across, Veii come across, it’s like you’re letting the foxes into the chicken coop of Rome.

Dr Rad 38:47Yeah, I get ya. So Veii recall their forces from Veii who aren’t in a great mood. They’re pretty depressed, to be honest. Because things haven’t gone well until then. And they set up camp just outside the Colline gate. One of the many ways that you can get into Rome which apparently is walls at this point in time,

Dr G 39:07Well, yeah, and they and the Colline gate is at that side of room that will lead them directly to Fidenae. So all makes sense.

Dr Rad 39:14Yeah, absolutely. So they make sure everything’s pretty fortified. You know, they do the typical thing arms, men placed along the walls. They also kind of say, right, everybody stop what you’re doing. Pay attention. So business in the courts stop shops close. Livy says that Rome ends up looking more like a military camp than a city at this point in time. The dictator now starts to get down to what he was brought in to do in the first place. He dispatches heralds to go through all the streets of Rome, to round them all up because they’re all terrified and cowering. Take them to an assembly. When they get there. He is furious with them for being so quick to think that Rome is actually going to be defeated. How dare they? Rome had beaten Veii six times and captured Fidenae so many times he can’t even count for heaven’s sakes. Get a grip. And they didn’t lose just recently because their army was weak. They lost because their commanders were arguing. Big difference.

Dr G 40:13And now, now they have a dictator, there’s gonna be no more arguing and only victory.

Dr Rad 40:32Exactly. And he says, You just wait guys, you will see that the men who appointed me as dictator have done an amazing thing for Rome because I am awesome. Everybody thinks so. Especially Livy!

Dr G 40:46Also Cossus the man who appointed him.

Dr Rad 40:49Exactly and those who tried to ruin him had done the biggest disservice to the state. Hint, hint, censors, need some ointment for that burn. So Mamercus then makes an offering to the gods. Again, this is all sounding very familiar, but not not like it’s not standard practice. I was gonna say

Dr G 41:13I mean, I mean that’s familiar but to be expected.

Dr Rad 41:16Yes, absolutely. Marches out sets up camp near Fidenae, make sure that he is shielded by mountains on one side and protected by the Tiber on the other so strategically sound position, he orders his lieutenant to secure the mountains and to secretly sneak sneak sneak occupy the riches behind the enemy. So that’s Titus Quinctius Poenas. So he puts on his sneakers, he gets all the men following him to put on their sneakers. And they are, are over to that location. So the next day, the enemy are feeling pretty confident because of course of everything that’s been happening, they’re ready to fight. The Romans are like, you got lucky. Thank you very much. Mamercus, however, he is not going to be rushed by these people. He’s not impetuous, he is wise. So he’s going to wait until he’s got all his ducks lined up in a row. He needs to make sure that Quinctius has made it to the ridge so that he’s secretly in position.

Dr G 42:22Yeah, it’s one of those powerful things going into battle to be the one making the decisions.

Dr Rad 42:28Yeah. And it’s then that he decides, okay, I think I’m almost ready. I’m going to take my infantry and against the enemy. And I’m going to do it really quickly at speed, like, whoo, you blink and we’re there.

Dr G 42:42Guys, I want you to sprint on my command.

Dr Rad 42:44Now notice I did say infantry, because he has a special plan for the cavalry. Now, naturally, master of the horse does seem to have some sort of connection to cavalry. And so Cossus is in charge of the cavalry. He says, don’t follow me. I want you to wait and not join the battle until you get an order from me. I need to keep the cavalry from coming in. And so just the right moment, and then it’s going to be the biggest thing you’ve ever seen, Cossus. Do you remember how awesome you were? You killed a freaking king, man, last time? I can’t even wait to see you at the head of the cavalry. This is gonna be awesome. He actually says that to him.

Dr G 43:32Yeah, okay, so in Livy’s account. Lars Tolumnius is definitely already, well dead.

Dr Rad 43:42Oh, yeah. He’s just like, he’s just like, look, remember how amazing you were the last time we went battle together, man. Let’s bring that energy again. Let’s get the band back together. Batman and Robin – Whoo. Whoo.

Dr G 43:52It’s gonna be great.

Dr Rad 43:55They jump together and they chest touch but because they’re wearing some sort of armour, it doesn’t go too well.

Dr G 44:01Yeah

Dr Rad 44:01I’m just kidding. All right, so the battle commences – it is fierce. The Romans are so mad because of the murder of the colonists. And the fact that the Fidenates clearly have no honour. They’re just murderers and traitors, and the people of Veii just faithless breakers of truces. Disgusting, they are Spurius Furius on the scale of anger. That is how angry they are. Now, the people of Veii, the Fidenates they are like completely blindsided in some ways because the Romans are just so angry and they’ve hit them so hard that at first, they are taken aback. Yeah, I was gonna say

Dr G 44:43this is gonna be shocking feeling the full force of this anger and particularly this pairing of our dictator and our master of the horse being such buddy buddies as well.

Dr Rad 44:55Yeah, exactly. Anyway, but then the Romans had a moment where they’re a bit shaken, because the gates of Fidenae open and what’s described very vaguely as a new type of army comes pouring out of the gate. Oh,

Dr G 45:09I have I have some detail on this.

Dr Rad 45:12Okay, go ahead. There’s a bit of a spoiler with this one isn’t there?

Dr G 45:15There might be there might be. I have a little snippet from Frontinus who talks about, and interestingly, like the dates are a little bit mixed up, so he talks about this moment where the Faliscans and the Tarquinians disguise themselves as priests

Dr Rad 45:35Oh

Dr G 45:35and held torches and snakes in front of them like the Furies and that this tactic and this is, this is a spoiler for 356 BCE. This panics, the Romans, and he says that this there is an occasion where the men of Veii and Fidenae do the same thing. They dress themselves up as priests, grab some torches, grab some snakes, goodness knows, and wander out towards the army of the Romans. And put the fear of the gods into them!

Dr Rad 46:17Yeah, I definitely get the sense that there is something going on here. I must admit, this is one of those things where I probably should have again, checked the Latin but we all know how good my Latin is. So it probably wouldn’t have helped. But yeah, there’s definitely something unexpected. It’s not just the fact that the enemies coming out with blazing torches, it as you say they’re dressed up some way, or I’ve even read somewhere in one of the academics, I was looking at that maybe it was like they thought they were facing women. But anyway, there’s something

Dr G 46:43Wow, that would be enough to make the men turn tail and run wouldn’t it. They’re like, Oh, yeah. Oh, the women have come out.

Dr Rad 46:52But anyway, they’re definitely whoever they are. And however they’re dressed that they are bearing blazing torches as weapons and the Romans are momentarily stunned. It’s at this moment that Mamercus is like, right, let’s get Cossus and Quinctius into action, as well as turning to the troops that are around him, you know, in the battlefield, and like trying to, you know, get them to like, get back into the spirit. Like, come on, step out of it. This isn’t a big deal. Like

Dr G 47:20They’re men dressed up as women. They’re not the Furies at all, those aren’t real snakes.

Dr Rad 47:25Yeah. So he hurries over to the left flank, which is the most intimidated away, or the fire gives them a massive pep talk. Like, remember, you are Romans, remember your glorious ancestors. Remember your courage. And this is all the weapon that you need. Now unleash it against them, set Fidenae alight, don’t let them let take you on fire. Or something to that effect. The Romans are encouraged by this because he’s apparently just the kind of guy that can just say something and they do it. So they start seizing torches by force, or they pick up ones that have been dropped or, you know, when someone being killed or time being careless or something like that. And then of course, we’ve got Cossus, right. Now, apparently, and this is a direct quote, he invented a new kind of cavalry fighting, and that he told his troops to take the bridles off their horses, and just charge into the fire. And apparently it was, so there was just so many of them that apparently, you know the chaos of battle, all that kind of stuff, they can barely see you with everything that’s going on.

Dr G 48:33That seems like a really bad idea, removing the bridles from the horses as they’re about to charge the cavalry unit into fire.

Dr Rad 48:44Nonsense, Dr G. It’s glorious, and it’s magnificent success!

Dr G 48:49Look, let’s just think about this realistically. Most animals have a healthy respect and fear of fire. A bridleless horse is a horse that you cannot change the direction of because it’s going to run whichever way that it wants, unless you’ve trained it to be controlled by the stirrups alone, which is a whole other thing entirely. And it doesn’t sound like they’ve got that. It just seems like madness, Cossus what are you doing?

Dr Rad 49:14Actually, as a side note, and I could be wrong here because this is something that’s just come to me out of nowhere. I’m almost 100% sure that the Romans did not ride with stirrups, not at this point in time and

Dr G 49:27yeah, so so it’s bridles or nothing

Dr Rad 49:31It’s your thighs, god dammit, Suzanne Somers would be proud.

Dr G 49:35Well, well well

Dr Rad 49:36Yeah. Anyway, the horses are apparently not frightened. The Romans are not frightened. The cavalry ends up just eating up huge amounts of the enemy just knocking them out of the battle. Then Quinctius makes his attack – the enemy is trapped. They have nowhere to flee. There’s nowhere to go. They’re pinned in all around. So the people of Veii and the Fidenates, they’re just running around in chaotic circles. The people of Veii, they’re trying to get to the Tiber and the Fidenates are trying to get to their city. But a lot of them are just running in the wrong directions, or they can’t go where they want to go. And they just ran into the very worst parts of the battle. So they’re either killed because they’re in the battlefield, or they drown trying to escape. The Romans, of course show no mercy, they are going to recapture that city if it kills them. So they enter the city, they make their way to the wall, and they send the signals say that Fidenae was captured. Again.

Ooo boy

Mamercus was in the camp of the enemy, with all his man, when this signal sort of goes up. The soldiers are really keen to be like, Yeah, cool. Let’s get pillaging this is what we came for. Mamercus says, look, let’s just stay calm, be methodical, takes them to the city. Once they’re inside, Mamerucs can see that the enemy are trying to reach the Citadel there. And they make sure that they basically finish them off. So there’s just slaughter everywhere until finally the enemy surrenders. And then they can loot and pillage and sack the city and the camp.

Dr G 51:22Oh, wow. All right, this is slightly different in some of the details then. And I’ll admit, I’ve got some pretty disparate source material at my disposal. And so it’s probably not a surprise that they’re quite different. So I’ve got Florus. Yeah, who is probably most famous for doing an epitome of Livy.

Dr Rad 51:47I was gonna say, surely that means that you should agree with everything I say.

Dr G 51:52And you’d be surprised, and but it may be the case that the detail that Florus is providing here actually belongs to maybe a later time period, though there does seem to be a bit of overlap in the detail.

Dr Rad 52:03Right

Dr G 52:04So he talks about the people of Fidenae are not a match for the Romans. And what they had done is they armed themselves with torches, and they’d put on a variety of fillets, so like head gear, resembling serpents, so we’ve got that serpent reference again. Yeah, and they had marched forth like Furies. And so, so far, there’s a little bit of match up there. But he also says that their funereal attire was an omen of their overthrow.

Dr Rad 52:36Oh

Dr G 52:37And also seems to indicate that at some point, and maybe this is anachronistic, and maybe it’s a bit of a spoiler for things to come, that Fidenae is consumed by its own flames.

Dr Rad 52:51Ah, well, I guess that’s, that’s, I think that all kind of matches up really, we’ve got these confusing costumes, which kind of are evoking female. You know, in the way they’re presenting themselves. We’ve got torches, we’ve got fire. I can see some similarities there.

Dr G 53:11It’s tricky. It’s tricky.

Dr Rad 53:13Back in my account, the cavalry man and the centurions all draw lots for a single captive each. So this is one of the sad parts obviously, of ancient warfare that the survivors of the sorts of wars usually ended up being captured and sold into slavery, if they’re not killed. Anyone who had received notices fighting with exceptional bravery received two, and then whatever was leftover was sold off at auction. So sad. It’s very sad. This is a this sounds like a lot of people. I mean, obviously, it’s not an on quite a scale that Livy would probably like us to imagine, but it still sounds like a decent amount of people that are being taken into slavery here.

Dr G 53:59Yeah, this. I mean, it’s pretty typical, I suppose. And depending on how much Rome might be interested in punishing somewhere that it has taken might depend on how many people they decide to then co opt into slavery.

Dr Rad 54:14This is true.

Dr G 54:15So if they’re really looking to, to have an impact on Fidenae’s ability to do anything, they might take most people as slaves.

Dr Rad 54:24This is very true. So, unlike the previous time in 437, when Mamercus and Cossus came together in a battle against these two places, after the murder of the ambassadors, etc. Mamercus is the one that returns to the city in glory. Now, obviously, he wasn’t completely ignored last time because he was also in a position of power then, but this time, there is no Lars Tolumnius for Cossus to have slain in single combat. And so while Cossus has done very well. Mamercus gets to triumph. And he and Cossus give up their power as dictator and master the horse. And apparently this has all happened in 16 days.

Dr G 55:10Wow. Yeah, that was Fast. Yeah. Look, nothing like the efficiency of a dictator in ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 55:17I know they’re in and they’re out. So lovely little detail right at the end here, Livy always throws these little bits in, he says that certain analysts – not of course, tell me who these certain analysts are – also mentioned, a naval battle in this war. And we did sort of talk about this when we were talking about the events of 437. And the confusion, mainly between these years. In that, there, it seems like the confusion might have come from the use of the term “classis”, that that that might have somehow given connotations that there was something to do with ships involved here. Whereas other people have said, no, this has more to do with who’s serving.

Dr G 56:04I was gonna say, I mean, we’re pretty inland, are we talking about river boats?

Dr Rad 56:08Perhaps perhaps. So Livy says, as if there was a naval battle, even in my own time, the river was not wide enough to accommodate ships or a naval battle like this. Or maybe there was like a ship. And it’s been exaggerated over time. And I’m going to finish with a direct quote from my translation, as so often happens, by those who added to the inscription the false claim of a naval victory. So..

Dr G 56:41Okay, so the, he’s just introducing a whole level of doubt about any record to do with naval battles, and what appears to be like a fairly standard belief that the inscriptions are docked over time.

Dr Rad 56:56Well, apparently, and this is in the notation of the translation I was using from the Loeb Classical Library. Apparently, they think that what he probably is referring to is an inscription that accompanied Mamercus’ portrait. So obviously, Mamercus is a pretty awesome guy, everybody loves him, of course, naturally, he would be represented somewhere in the city, and there would be an inscription there. So it seems that Livy is suggesting that there is something about a naval battle mentioned in this inscription, but that he thinks it’s been faked. And I guess that would be maybe by his family, like, maybe he’s descendants.

Dr G 57:36I just feel like he’s not using his imagination enough. I mean, there is a river there. And just because you can’t fit an ocean going ship in the river, does not mean, you don’t have any naval warfare going on. And it’s like, I mean, I feel like I can see it now. It’s late at night. Somebody’s on the river. You know, somebody’s got to shoot arrows into the fleeing people from Veii, you know,

Dr Rad 58:04Look Livy does concede that maybe there were some ships, but he’s like a naval battle. Are we really going to call that a naval battle?

Dr G 58:12Well, I don’t know. I mean, they will have to come up with other words in the Latin for it, I suppose. But barring the fact that they haven’t come up with a river battle situation themselves, maybe naval battle is as good as they’ve got. It’s on the sea, it’s water.

Dr Rad 58:27Yeah. Anyway, so this is how the conflict of this particular year with Veii, Fidenae and Rome comes to an end. But you can see why there are certainly a lot of similarities with what we described in 437. Not everybody, as you said, believes that Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, was actually dictator, back in 437, when we first talked about it, and for some academics, they believe it would make more sense for Cossus to have killed Lars Tolumnius in this year only because, as a king, he’s obviously a hugely significant political figure. So it would kind of be a fitting end to the conflict that has stricken the region, if they kind of give up because they’ve lost their leader. And this is kind of why there’s maybe be confusion. It is obviously though a lot of speculation. And clearly our source material is so confused. I don’t know that any academic is ever going to prove beyond a doubt that their account is the right account.

Dr G 59:33Oh, yeah, I think it would be very difficult to come to a really firm consensus on this. One of the problems that scholars face and part of the reason why people argue that maybe the stuff with Tolumnius happened in this year rather than the previous account is because Cossus is in this position as master of the horse. And prior to that, before taking on that role, he was is a military tribune with consular power. So the idea of the spolia opima, which is where you take the spoils from a military commander, as a military commander directly, so like one on one combat, you, as a commander have killed and slain the opposing commander, very rare, very difficult to do. Cossus is in a more senior command position in this moment in time than he was in that previous decade where he was pretty low down, he was like some sort of legate. And so it doesn’t seem reasonable that that would have counted as the moment. But this means that, like Livy gives us this whole different battle setup. Our later sources, some of which are epitomising Livy, are giving us very different details about what’s happening in this particular battle, versus what was happening in that previous battle. And there’s no way to reconcile those sorts of things. We know that our historians are sometimes making up a little bit of the detail in order to flesh things out and to give it that spice. But where those stories are coming from, whether they’re like from family traditions, or elsewhere, we’re not really sure. And even Livy, you know, throwing out the sort of like dissing the inscription. Amazing.

Dr Rad 1:01:23Don’t believe it just because it’s carved in stone.

Dr G 1:01:27I’ve seen that inscription. Rubbish. I tell you, rubbish.

Dr Rad 1:01:30Anyway, and so I think this is finally, finally going to bring a little bit of a resolution to the question of Fidenae, I’m sure there’s going to be more conflict in this direction. But I think that the really big conflict is going to be resolved for a little bit of time. So

Dr G 1:01:54This does seem to be a pretty bad defeat for them. So I guess time will tell I look forward to finding out what happens next.

Dr Rad 1:02:02Absolutely. You know, that means, Dr G. I think it’s time for the partial pick.

Dr G 1:02:18The partial pick, Rome has five categories, where they can score up to 10 golden eagles each. So if they max it out, and they’ve done the best that they possibly can. They will get 50 gold eagles. It’s time to find out. Our first category is military cloud.

Dr Rad 1:02:41Well, I think we can definitely say they’ve got nothing but clout at the moment.

Dr G 1:02:45It feels like a big 10, really, it’s a resounding-

Dr Rad 1:02:48Well hang on

Dr G 1:02:51In the end, it is a resounding defeat of the enemy. It is confusing how they get there.

Dr Rad 1:02:58In the beginning, it’s definitely not. I don’t think we can quite give them a 10 out of 10. I feel like it’s got to be an eight.

Dr G 1:03:05Yeah. So like the chaos leading into the dictatorship. All right. All right.

Dr Rad 1:03:11They did get defeated three commanders in one battle.

Dr G 1:03:15We all know those commanders were rubbish. They were never going to come to anything.

Dr Rad 1:03:18Were they though? Were they?

Dr G 1:03:22Hard to know, but certainly I take your point. Fine. I won’t give them 10.

Dr Rad 1:03:27Okay, eight it is

Dr G 1:03:29Diplomacy?

Dr Rad 1:03:31No. Nobody has any sense of diplomacy in this episode.

Dr G 1:03:38Expansion?

Dr Rad 1:03:42I can’t even remember what we said last time that they recaptured Fidenae, which is meant to be theirs in the first place.

Dr G 1:03:46Yeah. I don’t think that counts as expansion.

Dr Rad 1:03:48No, I don’t think so. Particularly not the second time they recapture it.

Dr G 1:03:53Yeah, it’s beginning to look careless, ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 1:03:57I shouldn’t even say the second time. It’s way more than two.

Dr G 1:04:00Yeah, who knows where we’re up to with that. So expansion is a no. All right. Virtus?

Dr Rad 1:04:08Okay.

Dr G 1:04:09Hmm.

Dr Rad 1:04:11I feel like Mamercus has got some things going on here.

Dr G 1:04:14He did do some resounding sort of speechifying.

Dr Rad 1:04:17I think Livy is it real pains to redeem this guy, which is weird, because he then disses his inscription at the end. I mean, he doesn’t name Mamercus personally, I’m speculating based on what I’ve read in the translation. But yeah, he definitely seems very keen on him. I think this guy is a big deal.

Dr G 1:04:36Mm hmm.

Dr Rad 1:04:37Yeah. And I think I think he could say that all the speechifying he’s done, the careful planning, he gets a triumph. I mean, it’s not maybe the most impressive most original thing we’ve ever seen. But yeah,

Dr G 1:04:50Yeah. I’m just trying to think about it in terms of like, like, literal virtus, where it’s kind of like, I mean, these are all the things that are kind of expected of a Roman military commander, and he does do them and they go well, so I suppose that does count. And then you’ve got Cossus, who sort of goes a bit wild, it would seem, with his like, just take those bridles off the horses, and let’s like the launch in there, and it works. And in a way, I wonder if that is a greater demonstration of virtus in the Roman perception of like really taking that sort of risk, and it really working out in the heat of battle. So like, afterwards, Mamercus is getting sort of lauded with the triumph and that sort of thing. But it might be the case that people like that Cossus guy though. Wild.

Dr Rad 1:05:43Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is true. And this is exactly what happened the previous time, which is why we see those weird parallels right, where Mamercus is technically in charge to the previous time as well. And yet, it’s Cossus to gets most of the attention because he does something that no one is expecting.

Dr G 1:06:02Yeah, so

Dr Rad 1:06:03Or he fights with particular vigour.

Dr G 1:06:06And so maybe this is the power of this duo is that like they work best together and Cossus always just slightly by accident upstages Mamercus.

Dr Rad 1:06:18But he doesn’t seem to mind I think Mamercus seems incredibly confident. He’s like, you kicked me out of my tribe. Look at me rescuing you, or when you’re in danger again, because I’m so amazing. And my plans always work out and I have the best team and everything I do is amazing. He doesn’t seem at all shaken.

Dr G 1:06:38That’s true. There’s a firmness of the resolve. Yeah, look, maybe. I feel like maybe a six.

Dr Rad 1:06:46Really?

Dr G 1:06:47Yeah look, I mean, between the two of them. I don’t think I don’t think this is like the most

Dr Rad 1:06:53impressive

Dr G 1:06:54impressive kind of Roman virtus. It’s not like yeah, it’s it’s the expected kind of masculine embodiment stuff. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:07:06All right. Okay, so we that takes us okay, so I get a six. All right. Next category,

Dr G 1:07:10The citizen score.

Dr Rad 1:07:12Oh, we really haven’t heard much about the citizens apart from the fact that they are annoyed with the military tribunals when they stuff up.

Dr G 1:07:20But they’re also like, you know, like ever present, like there’s no way that Rome could have won this without bodies on the ground in the infantry in the cavalry and stuff like that. So yeah, they’re definitely there. And they do get to partake in those spoils as well.

Dr Rad 1:07:37This is true, and it sounds like Cossus and, Quinctius, and Mamercus, are pretty popular. So there’s that too. So I’m gonna hedge and say a four, just because they weren’t very happy with the tribunes and their performance. And you know what, I can’t help but think that this is also a little convenient. That, you know, they’ve been pushing for military tribunes with consular power, and then they just get, you know, replaced with a dictator, because there doesn’t work out. But anyway, not that they were plebeians, but

Dr G 1:08:13the more that you talk about it, the more it makes me think that maybe this is a lower than a four then because it’s like not only do they have to go to war, which is always a problem because people die. But they haven’t been very happy about the whole process anyway. And there was that moment where, what the Senate was kind of like, well, maybe we’ll decide whether it’s a war or not.

Dr Rad 1:08:32Yeah, this is true.

Dr G 1:08:34And the the citizens are like, excuse me?

Dr Rad 1:08:36Yeah, maybe like a three. Although they do win that battle.

Dr G 1:08:39That’s true. Yeah.

Dr Rad 1:08:43It’s a three or four for me.

Dr G 1:08:45Let’s go with the three. I want Rome to really knock it out of the ballpark for the people and they’re not doing it this year.

Dr Rad 1:08:50Fair enough. All right. Dr. G. That means we’ve ended up with a grand total of 17 out of 50 golden eagles.

Dr G 1:08:58that’s actually more impressive than expected.

Dr Rad 1:09:01Well, I knew this was going to be a good year because I knew Cossus and Mamercus were going to you know, be teaming up. So well done. Batman and Robin, well done. You have once again protected Gotham City and the citizens are safe to walk the street. Not at night, because that would be insane. But during the day

Dr G 1:09:20At other times. Yeah, these two are classic. One hopes to see the duo again, although I have my doubts.

Dr Rad 1:09:32All right. Well, thanks for taking a little trip into this bromance with me.

Dr G 1:09:36Oh an absolute pleasure.

Dr Rad 1:09:42Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and the occasional bonus episode. However, there are other ways you can support our show. We have merch a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book. If you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome you can find the details on our website or you can head straight to Highlands Press and order a copy now. Today we’d like to send a special shout out to our patrons who pre-ordered this very book. And that’s Dana Erin and Divus Augustus, salve! However, if all of these avenues are beyond your means, please just tell someone about our show or give us a five star review. These are not little gestures to us, they mean the world. So until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Dr G 1:11:22Have you ever wondered how to cover up an axe in the head, Dr Rad?

Dr Rad 1:11:28You know, I actually have.

Dr G 1:11:32I told you that the Romans did it first.

Dr Rad 1:11:36Oh, what? How?

Dr G 1:11:39I know. Well, there’s this little thing that I think we could call regal assassination. Regicide, if you will. We wrote about it in a book together.

Dr Rad 1:11:52We did?

Dr G 1:11:53We certainly did. It is called Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome. And boy is it a romp through history. Packed with source detail, packed with salacious stories

Dr Rad 1:12:07and packed with our trademark brand of humour.

Dr G 1:12:12Yes, well where would we be in a book if it is not for our humour? If you would like to support our endeavours into podcastally research then we would love to treat you to Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome. Please

Dr Rad 1:12:33head over to Highlands Press. If you would like to order a copy now.

Dr G 1:12:38It should be delivered to you at some time in the future.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We recap the confusing details of the 430s BCE. Be careful – there’s a lot of dictators about!

This is a short, sharp, scripted overview of all the big events that defined the 430s BCE. If you’re inspired to delve into more details, all the episodes from this decade can be found in our Foundation of Rome series starting with Episode 127: The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.

The Partial Recap – 430s BCE

Partial-Recap-1024x390.png" alt="A black and white image of the ruins of Ancient Rome" class="wp-image-2416">

A view to the East over the Roman Forum with the Temple of Saturn on the left and the Palatine Hill on the right, showing the Temple of Castor and Pollux, the Arch of Titus, Santa Francesca Romana, and the Colosseum. Detail from the photograph by Nicholas Hartmann, June 1976. Image Source: Wikimedia Commons. Used under license.

Sound Credits

Our music was composed by the incomparable Bettina Joy de Guzman.

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:20we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad

Dr G 0:34and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to the Partial Recap for the 430s BCE.

Dr G 1:12I’m Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:14And I’m Dr. Rad

Dr G 1:15And this is our highlights addition of the 430s in Rome will take you through from 439 to 430. In an epitome of our normal episodes

Dr Rad 1:27Perfect for those mornings when you don’t want some lengthy rhetoric with your coffee. But Please be warned. The Roman world is a violent one

Dr G 1:34Get ready for a re-cappuccino.

Dr Rad 2:02439 BCE. In 439 BCE, the consuls were Agrippa Menenius Lanatus and Titus Quinctius Capitolinus Barbatus, Rome was still having issues with their green supply and 439 BCE. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say that they were having issues with the man who had tried to solve the green crisis and to be honest, the dates are blurry here. This is more 439 and 438. An equestrian named Spurius Maelius had used his private fortune to secure desperately needed corn, something that the officially appointed prefect of corn supply Lucius Minucius had failed to do. Spurius Maelius had allegedly been using his success with the grain to curry favour and after carefully building support amongst the plebs instal himself as monarch. Funnily enough Minucius was the one to uncover this dastardly plot. Jealous much? This may somehow connect to another version of events we have in which the people overthrew Minucius and put Maelius in his place. In this time of crisis, the Romans turned to Cincinnatus, that old war horse or did they? Officially Cincinnatus was made dictator and chose Gaius Servilius Ahala, whose name means Gaius Servilius ‘Armpit’, as the master of the horse, depending who you believe Ahala was either just a random elite man who was given a senatorial approval to kill Maelius, or he was sent by Cincinnatus to arrest the scheming Spurius. When Spurius decided not to go quietly, and when he screamed for help from the nearby plebs, Ahala decided to murder him on the spot. Naturally. Ahala and a band of young patricians reported the crime to Cincinnatus, who was thoroughly pleased that Maelius was dead. The populace were less thrilled and Cincinnatus summoned an assembly to explain exactly how Maelius’ murder went down. With Rome safe again, Maelius’ house was torn down. Too much evil plotting had gone down in there to leave it standing. It became a memorial named the Aquaemaelium to commemorate whatever he was supposedly doing. The rest of his property was donated to the public treasury. Again, according which account you believe some other traitors flesh rabbits may have found their heads detached for their bodies and displayed in the Forum. In the aftermath of the Spurius Maelius debacle, Lucius Minucius was given an ox and a gilded statue outside the Porta Trigamenia, he may also have been made a plebeian and an 11th tribune of the plebs just to keep an eye on them after this attempted coup business, but even Livy is unsure about this one. The tribunes certainly weren’t pleased that Minucius was being honoured, so they pushed to have military tribunes with consular power and 438 BCE. Come on pleb power! Ahala did not fare as well as Minucius going into “self imposed exile”. Wink. Looking to delve deeper into the details of 439 BCE, check out our Episode 127 The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.

Dr G 5:49438 BCE in 438 BCE, the military tribunes with consular power were Mamercus Aemilius, Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus and Lucius Julius Iullus. If the idea to have military tributes with consular power is to allow non elite Romans into the politics then we can call this year a fail. These guys are all patricians. It’s a tough time in Rome because the Roman colony of Fidenae decided to revolt and side with the Etruscan city of Veii, led by King Lars Tolumnius: disaster! To make matters worse, the Fidenates ended up murdering the ambassadors that the Romans sent to sort out this mess. Lars Tolumnius may have had something to do with this, but it is all very murky. The four slain ambassadors received statues which were erected at the public expense in Rome, lest we forget. Me thinks the Romans have vengeance on their mind. Jump into Episode 128 Mopping up Maelius, to catch all the details.

Dr Rad 7:31437 BC in 437 BCE, the consuls were Marcus Geganius Macerinus and Lucius Sergius Fidenas. Rome was in crisis mode, so no one was causing issues at home, but a dictator was clearly needed. And Mamercus Aemilius was chosen for the job. Lucius Quictius Cincinnatus, son of the famous Cincinnatus, was selected as master of the horse. During the emotionally charged battle that followed, a really ridiculously good looking tribune from the Roman cavalry named Aulua Cornelius Cossus distinguished himself. Determined to make his family name proud, Cossus decided to take down the king of Veii. Tolumnius was wreaking havoc for the Romans, but not once Cossus was finished with him. Cossus did not just kill Tolumnius, he decapitated him. The Etruscans lost their nerve after the death of their King and were defeated. Cossus became known as the first man since King Romulus to defeat an enemy leader in single combat, and he dedicated his spoils to Jupiter Feretrius. The senate and the people agreed: all of this glory added up to a triumph for our dictator.

Dr G 9:15436 BCE, in 436 BCE, the consuls were Lucius Papirius Crassus and Marcus Cornelius Maluginensis – what a mouthfull! The year began with some raids into enemy territory. We’re in familiar crowds now with the Romans and the Romans took some booty, both human and animal from Veii and the Faliscans, those bastards. The enemy was presumably busy licking their wounds, and so there was no actual battle to be had. At least no battles before Romans were struck down by a pestilence. Not to be stopped by disease, Spurius Maelius – a relative of our grain loving murder victim – decided to use his power as tribune of the plebs to prosecute Lucius Minucius and to confiscate the property of Servilius Ahala. Crazily, the people seem to have been quite indifferent to his efforts. Perhaps it was the worsening pestilence…

Dr Rad 10:21435 BCE. In 435 BCE the consuls were Gaius Iulius and Lucius Verginius. After all that pesky illness, the patricians and plebeians were ready for a peaceful year, but the people of Fidenae had other ideas. Fidenae and Veii teamed up to create terror for the Romans with their pillaging, reaching the very gates of Rome. You know what this means? It’s time for a dictator. Quintus Servilius Priscus was made dictator with Postumius Aebutius Helva as master of the horse. Any male who could fight was called up and a battle ensued near Nomentum. The enemy retreated into the city of Fidenae, which was a hard nut to crack. But Servilius was no ordinary military strategist. Using clever diversionary tactics, he managed to seize control of the city. Back in Rome, the censors approved a new public building fittingly called the Villa Publica. This would be used to take the census. Just as exciting as siege warfare, clearly censors know how to party.

Dr G 11:35Build a house for the very same.

434 BCE. Now things get pretty confusing around 434. The first problem, there seems to have been two sets of consuls. The consuls are variously listed as Gaius Julius Iullus, and Lucius Verginius Tricostus or Marcus Manlius Capitolinus and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. So imagine that so you know, so much Latin, no overlap of names. And to make matters even worse, there were also three military tributes with consular power listed for this year as well. Servius Cornelius Cossus, Marcus Manlius Capitolinus and Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. And yes, you’re definitely starting to hear some overlapping names. This year was simply lousy with magistrates. The sources themselves seem quite confused over who was running the place. But whoever was in charge, they soon found themselves replaced by dictator Mamercus Aemilius and his master of the horse. Oulus – Aulus, I should say Postumius Tubertus. Mamercus was called in because it seemed like war might break out with Veii and some of their allies, but it all fizzled quite quickly. Mamercus therefore decided that he was going to change some things at home, he focused his attention on the censorship. These guys were too powerful. A law was proposed that would limit the censorship to a year and a half, that people were giddy with delight. But the censors now saw Mamercus as public enemy number one. They kicked him out of his tribe, and drastically increased his tax bill. Ouch.

Dr Rad 13:56Hell know no fury like a censor scorned.

Dr G 14:01What is this tax? It’s just for you, my friend. Lucky for the censors, Mamercus was content to take this one on the chin, or they may have found some of his devoted fans waiting for them in the forum with baseball bats and switch blades.

Dr Rad 14:44433 BCE. In 433 BCE, the military tributes with consular power where Marcus Fabius Vibulanus, Marcus Folius Flaccinator, and Lucius Sergius Fidenas. The tribunes of the plebeians decided that this was a good year to start some trouble. They tried to block the consular elections and the rumours were apparently close to having to move to an interregnum. A compromise was reached and military tribunes with consular power were elected instead. But none of the men chosen were plebeians. The best laid plans. More political shenanigans may have ensued, but a serious epidemic struck the city so serious that a temple was given to Apollo on behalf of the people’s health. But many people died and the Romans were worried that widespread death would lead to famine, which would lead to more death. So they started searching high and low for grain which they could stockpile.

Dr G 16:09432 BCE, and we’re back with some military tribunes with consular power, Lucius Pinarius Mamercinus, Lucius Furius Medullinus and Spurius Postumius Albus Regillensis. The disease that had affected the population in the previous year started to ease up and the Romans did not have to add famine to their list of worries as they were so damn organised. All of that stockpiled grain coming in handy. There were murmurings of war between Etruscans, the Volscians and Aequians and Rome, but it was decided to postpone any conflict for a year. The tribune of the plebs started strategizing about how they could get a plebeian elected as military tribune with consular power. It was crazy that only patricians had been elected so far. Somehow this led to a law being proposed by the tribunes that political candidates were not allowed to whiten their toga. In other words, no advertising the fact that you were running for office with your very shiny very white toga candida. To avoid dirty plebeians winning any more power, the patricians made sure that consuls were on the cards for the following year.

Dr Rad 17:56431 BCE. In 431 BCE the consuls were Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, and Gaius or Gnaeus Iulius Mento, and they apparently hated each other. The consuls really needed a strong army this year, so a levy was held under a lex sacrata, which meant that anyone who offended against this law was sacer to the gods. The Aequians and the Volscians set up their camps at Mount Algidus and seem to have strong armies in the field. The Romans were spooked or defeated in battle and didn’t want to talk about it, and the Senate decided to appoint a dictator. After all, so many young Romans had perished in the plague and the consuls were not a great team. However, the consuls did agree that a dictator was a terrible idea. In desperation Quintus Servilius Priscus, an elite Roman, appealed to the tribune of the plebs, and ask them to force the consuls to name a dictator. The consuls were livid. But finally it was decided by lot that Titus Quinctius should choose the dictator. Quinctius selected his father-in-law Aulus Postumius Tubertus, aka the “face of stone”. Lucius Julius was named master of the horse. A levy was declared and the Romans were ordered to focus all of their attention on the war effort. Postumius was just what the campaign needed. With his team and fellow elites, they managed to defeat both the Aequians and the Volscians. The only downer was the possible execution of Aulus Postumius’ son on his father’s orders. The “face of stone” strikes again! But nobody wants to believe this story. As a parting blow to his colleague, Gnaeus Julius dedicated the Temple of Apollo without consulting his colleague Quinctius. How rude.

Dr G 20:16430 BCE. In this year the consuls were Lucius Papirius Crassus and Lucius Julius Iullus. A new law was introduced this year called The Papira Julia, which changed the valuation of fines by changing how they decided to count cattle. Those Romans will the excitement never end when it comes to their lawmaking! After their disastrous defeat in the previous year, the Aequians – surprise, surprise – managed to secure an eight year truce with Rome. Ahh, the bliss of peace. The Volscians on the other hand, were distracted by their own internal dispute, which made for an unusually peaceful end to the decade.

Dr Rad 21:25And that was the 430s in ancient Rome. Or, was it?

Dr G 21:29Wow, that is the big question. Remember, this has just been a highlights reel of the ancient sources and the decade that was so if you want to delve into the complexities of the different evidence from this period, check out our narrative episodes, you’d want to be jumping in at Episode 127 The Assassination of Spurius Maelius to join us for a deep dive into the decade that was the 430s BCE.

Dr Rad 22:00Thank you for listening to this episode of The Partial Historians, we’d like to send an extra special thank you to all of our supporters, especially our Patreon and our Kofi donators. Thank you so much for helping keep the show going. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

On the 1st March 2013, something momentous happened. We published our first episode of the Partial Historians podcast! Clearly, this is an event akin to Hannibal crossing the Alps or the expulsion of the kings.

Well, perhaps not quite. But it certainly changed our lives forever in ways that we could not imagine. Therefore, we decided to mark the occasion by getting together and discussing our Top Ten Moments from the Roman Republic thus far.

We hope you enjoy our chat about the Republic as much as we have enjoyed making this show for the past ten years.

Special Episode – Our Top Ten at Ten

Things to Look Out For:

1. The Conspiracy to Restore the Tarquins (Episode 45 – The Last Gasp of the Regal Period)
2. The Downfall of Spurius Cassius (Episode 71-73)
3. The Career of Lars Porsenna (Episode 46-47)
4. The First Secession of the Plebs (Episodes 58-59)
5. The Rise of Volero (Episode 85-86)
6. The Sneak Attack of Appius Herdonius (Episodes 96-97)
7. The Death of Verginia (Episodes 114-115)
8. The Life and Times of Dentatus (Episodes 105-106, 113)
9. The Rise and Fall of Spurius Maelius (Episode 127 – The Assassination of Spurius Maelius)
10. Aulus Cornelius Cossus vs Lars Tolumnius (Episodes 129-130)

Sound Effects

Thanks to the talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our music.

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Just a few photos of us together over the years. Are we partial to a dress up for the sake of Roman history? You betcha!

Automated Transcript

Dr Rad 0:00That’s right isn’t just any bonus episode. Dr. G. It’s our anniversary episode. I know I can’t believe it. But we have been recording this podcast for 10 years as of today, the first of March.

Welcome to a special bonus episode of the Partial Historians. And this might just be the most special bonus episode that you will hear of this show for a long time. Not that you should stop listening or anything. But just because this is our 10 year anniversary show. That’s right. 10 years ago to this day, we released our very first episode. And so to mark that occasion, Dr. G, and I did what we did 10 years ago, which is we sat down, and we had a chat in our living room about Roman history. We hope that you enjoy the show.

Dr G 0:54Hello and welcome to a fabulous bonus edition of the Partial Historians. I am Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:04And I am a 10 year old Dr. Rad

Dr G 1:0810 years old.

Dr Rad 1:09That’s right isn’t just any bonus episode. Dr. G.

Dr G 1:13It’s our anniversary episode. I

Dr Rad 1:15know I can’t believe it. But we have

Dr G 1:1810 years old??

Dr Rad 1:23the first of March.

Dr G 1:26Look, there are marriages that do not last as long as this podcast.

Dr Rad 1:31I know. And I felt we could not let this occasion pass without marking upon it. Because being independent podcasters as we are and have been for 10 years. I think that really the fact that we’re still here now actually has a lot to do with the fact that we are just determined in clueless.

Dr G 1:54We shall persist regardless the circumstance. Well, I mean, that may be so but I think it is also the case genuinely that over time, we have found our audience, our beautiful listeners, they’re out there,

Dr Rad 2:08I know. And we’re so incredibly grateful because we look back to 10 years ago, and it really doesn’t feel like 10 years ago because we even though we don’t release episodes as often as other podcasts because we are dependent, and we have to balance full time jobs and all that kind of stuff. At the same time. We actually haven’t taken a break. There hasn’t been a month where we haven’t released a podcast in 10 years, we have never stopped making the show.

Dr G 2:35That is pretty consistent. I’m gonna give us a large pat on the back for that. Congratulations. For a while we were doing them every two weeks. I think that was a that was a period of early insanity, where we thought we had more time. And podcasting was not so strenuous.

Dr Rad 2:52Yeah, because I mean that this is the thing. I was thinking back to our early days. And initially you and I had mooted the idea of starting a YouTube channel. But back in 2012, when we were initially having these discussions, that was a little out of our budget.

Dr G 3:08It was it was and to be honest, who knows what would happen if we attempted to start a YouTube in 2012? It’s like the dark ages of YouTube.

Dr Rad 3:18Exactly. But instead, we decided that we would start a podcast because it required a little bit less investment. And back in those days also a little bit less know how.

Dr G 3:27Yeah, I look, I don’t know that it requires heaps of know how now, but we certainly do know more now.

Dr Rad 3:35Yeah, definitely. But yeah, so we basically for an hour, if there’s a word that I say all the time? Of course, I have to say it on our turn. Yeah, I say basically a lot on the show. But we initially take that basically, just we’re recording our conversations, and we proudly did not edit our shows at all until I think about maybe three years ago.

Dr G 3:59This is true. We did spend a long time not editing anything. Yeah. And and that my friends is the secret to an independent podcast.

Dr Rad 4:11Yeah, but it wasn’t it wasn’t just because of time. I mean, we genuinely sat down I think to record our conversations. And I think that’s been one of our challenges as well. The fact is that you amuse me endlessly Dr. G, and I am what we call a laugh speaker naturally, as anybody who knows me in real life knows, I tend to laugh as I speak all the time, regardless, and I’m a teacher so there are a lot of people out there that have to listen to me teach history whilst simultaneously somehow

Dr G 4:42I think that’s fine. It’s more like when it gets into like disciplining the students and you’re still laughing and that’s that’s the toughy.

Dr Rad 4:50Ahh Yes, my my notorious laugh-yelling less heard on the podcast. But anyway, I think that that’s exactly it when we first started sitting down and having conversations it genuinely, I think it still is to a certain extent. But for a really long time, you and I were really just in a bubble, I felt like where I almost forgot we were recording. I just don’t have a great time talking to you. And therefore getting too excited, laughing too much being too loud.

Dr G 5:21Oh, look, and I don’t think that’s a real issue. And I have to say that if we’re in this sort of compliment sandwich, which is this anniversary episode, and I feel like that’s where we, that I enjoy your company events. And I would not be able to turn up every time for 10 years and have such a good time. If it weren’t for you, my esteemed colleague.

Dr Rad 5:43No, I couldn’t agree more. And the crazy thing is that if we hadn’t come together, I mean, we met at university, everybody, I think, who listens to our show probably noticed that we did meet at university, but we really didn’t know each other at all, while we were doing our degree. I remember having a conversation with you at some postgrads thing that was at Macquarie I can’t even remember what it was about. And we were talking about the fact that at the time, we were both dating men who were really keen cricketers. And so we were talking about how the fact that we were like cricket widows on a Saturday or something along those lines. But apart from that, I don’t think we exchanged more than five words to each other whilst we’re at uni together. It wasn’t until we were both graduating essentially, that we were kind of thrown together and somehow decided that even though we knew each other, but we didn’t know each other that well that we would start a podcast together.

Dr G 6:35Let’s just do this thing. I think at that point, we were really driven by our passion for history and wanting to continue to do history. Yes. And that was pretty clear. And we also, the circumstances of us getting to know each other more through doing the podcast is absolutely true, because we did know, of each other. But I wouldn’t say that we necessarily knew each other deeply at the time that we agreed to do this thing. And in a way that’s potentially a benefit. But I would have to say also, that the circumstance of us coming together was through a mutual friend.

Dr Rad 7:11Yes.

Dr G 7:12And so we, we had both already been vetted and approved by somebody we both trusted.

Dr Rad 7:18And we had been spending some social time together because of the mutual friend, definite

Dr G 7:23Shout out Abby!

Dr Rad 7:24Our original photographer, guys. And that’s just it, we ended up developing a number of important mutual friendships, such as Dr. Smith. Hi, Dr. Smith, also one of our photographers are our long suffering friends that have had to take photos of us wherever we go.

Dr G 7:44Yes, and we’ve really only sorted that out recently, as well by buying a ring light. So we could put this phone on a stand to take the photos for us. And goodness knows. That may be more silly than having somebody take your own picture. I don’t know.

Dr Rad 7:58This is true. But it just seems crazy to me that if it hadn’t been for that brief moment, that we might not ever have stayed in touch. Like, I know, it’s kind of crazy to me, like you’re literally the person I talk to you the most in the world.

Dr G 8:14That’s a sliding doors moment

Dr Rad 8:16That’s actually listening to me, that’s the key.

Dr G 8:19Oh, no, is this the time where I tell the truth?

Dr Rad 8:25But anyway, but no look, it has been such a an immense privilege and pleasure to talk about. I’m just gonna say history, because although it is Roman history, we have talked about other things as well. So just talk about history with you for 10 years now. And for you to tolerate my laugh talking.

Dr G 8:42It is really no burden at all.

Dr Rad 8:45And also, I mean, you know, there are many co hosts out there that can say they’ve also had to adjust to podcasting with a co host who’s losing their hearing, which has got to be a challenge.

Dr G 8:57I mean, between the two of us, I guess we’ll see what happens. But as long as we’re able to figure it out, I think we can keep talking about for sure. So this will be our transition into video and sign.

Dr Rad 9:09It’s coming. It’s coming. I’m learning Auslan slowly. So we decided to get together today because we also wanted to share this moment with our listeners. Because whilst you and I, for the vast majority of our podcasting career have mostly just talked to each other and assumed that nobody else is listening, it turns out that we were wrong about that. That’s actually a lot of people that listen to our podcast. Yeah. And honestly, we are so incredibly grateful for the people that we’ve collaborated with over the years. I mean, they’re too numerous to mention. But we have had a lot of people who had us on this show who shared expertise who shared their support, whether it’s, you know, through resources that they have access to that we didn’t have access to. I mean, we’re really so grateful for all the people out there that have reached out and also to the people that have taken the time to write to us and write nice reviews and nice comments. I mean, honestly, for two people that are still podcasting after 10 years in their living rooms, it’s really, really so incredibly meaningful when you do that. So thank you so much for listening. And thank you for your support. And now as a gift to you, we decided that since it was our 10 year anniversary, that we would get together and have a bit of a bonus chat about our 10 top moments from the Roman Republic, which has absorbed our attention for the vast majority of the past 10 years, not entirely. But obviously, if you want to know what we think about the Regal period, you can go and buy our book now.

Dr G 10:40Oh, yeah, we’ve sealed the deal on the Regal period by writing a book about it. And we are still in the Republican period. And we will be for hundreds more years. Yeah, I suspect that our 20 year anniversary will probably so banner above like, Look, if we get to the Punic Wars by the 20th anniversary, I think we will have done well.

Dr Rad 11:01Deal, we’ve gotta go now. The Punic Wars by 2033.

Dr G 11:09Everyone’s gonna have a 10 year strategy, don’t they?

Dr Rad 11:12Exactly. So let’s talk through some of our top 10 moments Dr. G, and just re-live the violence the horror, because I realized looking at this list, there aren’t that many nice list. We can pull this list and it’s it’s full of violence. I’m not gonna lie. Well, why don’t you tell me what’s your what’s your fav?

Dr G 11:35Oh, look, I don’t know that I necessarily have a fave. So we have compiled a document. So I’m just gonna go from number one to number 10. That’s how this is gonna work. Number one is the conspiracy to restore theTarquin dynasty the final terrible family of kings. And somebody at Rome like, you know, it would be a great idea to have those sad sacks back in charge, even though we just literally kick them out.

Dr Rad 12:03Definitely. Look, I think that this is one of our top moments because it’s one of Brutus’ top moments. And Brutus, as we know is you know, Roman man, par excellence?

Dr G 12:16Yes, a very honorable man indeed.

Dr Rad 12:18So just for those of you who don’t recall, Episode 45. When we dealt with this, you can go back and listen to it in more detail. But as you might expect, when a regime is toppled, there are those that were attached to the regime that are no longer enjoying quite the cushy benefits that they used to. And you know who I’m talking about Dr G? It’s time to mention the young patricians.

Dr G 12:44Oh, no.

Dr Rad 12:46Now to be fair, they’re not I don’t think they’re actually explicitly in my account, called the Young patricians. But Livy is explicit that they are young men have important families. So I’ve been read between the lines. Young men have important families, it sounds like we’re dealing with the elites, at the very least, exactly. Even if they’re not called the patricians in this time period. Exactly. They’re the people that are going to spawn their patrician class, and therefore I burn them. These young people, they’re not loving, being without the talk wins, because they’re just not enjoying the lifestyle to which they have become accustomed. And therefore, when envoys come from the Tarquins, saying, hey, so like, you know, how they’re exiled and all but what about their property that’s still hanging around the place? What about that? What about it?

The young men of Rome are open to some subterfuge on the side. So whilst ostensibly representing the property interests of the top ones, these envoys are putting out feelers and lo and behold, they find some people that are willing to try and assist the torque winds to get back into power. Now, they don’t seem to be the best conspirators I’ve ever come across. I’m not going to lie. Because not only do they put things down in writing, which I feel like it’s never a good idea. Awkward guys.

Dr G 14:15Conspiracy much?

Dr Rad 14:16Yeah, exactly. Letters are exchanged. So not only is stuffed down in writing, but they don’t seem to be very secretive when discussing the super secret plot to bring back the king in their own homes. Now, Hmm. Maybe this is just complacency, because the people that overhear them are slaves. So maybe they’re just like, well, you know, I do everything else in front of my slaves. You know, I have sex in front of them. I address in front of them. I go to the toilet in front of them. I eat in front of them. You’re certainly not expecting them to do the dirty on you, that’s for sure. Yeah. But anyway, as a result of all these various types of evidence, they ended up getting found out pretty quick-smart and convicted of conspiracy now why? Why Dr. G? You might ask Does any of this have anything to do with Brutus?

Dr G 15:10I think some of his relatives, nay, his children may be involved.

Dr Rad 15:16Exactly. So Brutus, supposedly was one of the first consuls, see our other episodes for the lengthy discussions about whether consuls actually existed this quickly or not. Brutus is apparently one of the very first consuls, and he is naturally you know, taking charge of steering this ship that is room through the dangerous waters that lie ahead as they enter the Republican harbor after exiting from the kingship. But he has to face the fact that his own sons, Titus and Tiberius seem to have been caught up in this conspiracy. And this is not entirely surprising, because lest we forget, Dr. G. Brutus is a part of the Tarquin family.

Dr G 16:01Yes, he’s part of the extended gens that is related to Superbus himself. So it is perhaps problematic that his sons are involved, and also unsurprising.

Dr Rad 16:15So this means that Brutus has to oversee not only the conviction of his sons, which would be shameful enough, but the punishment and this is what I think really cements, Brutus, his reputation in the Roman mind, putting state above self.

Dr G 16:33Indeed. And it’s an unpleasant business to execute people in ancient Rome. These guys are stripped their scourged and then ultimately beheaded.

Dr Rad 16:46And Brutus has to stand by and watch it all. Ugh.

Dr G 16:51Well, I mean, he doesn’t have to stand by and watch it all. But he does.

Dr Rad 16:54This is true. And this is the this is the thing. It’s that toughness, isn’t it? You know, Roman men are meant to be either masculine in this sense. So he’s tough. He’s got that sort of stoic vibe to him. I know that it’s probably a bit anachronistic to say that, but you know what I mean, I’m using it in the modern sense. And he is absolutely putting the New Republic above his own family.

Dr G 17:21Yeah, it’s a impressive and tragic start to the New Republic.

Dr Rad 17:27But for that reason, I had to put her on the list because Brutus will continue to be a bit of a touchstone I think for subsequent generations of Romans, because of his key role in overthrowing the Tarquin dynasty and then ensuring that they can’t sneak their sneaky little way back in.

Dr G 17:46They certainly cannot. Yeah, people will die. Yeah, heads will fall.

Dr Rad 17:51Absolutely. And this moment, for those of you who are playing along at home, was immortalized by Jacques Louis David, French painter who was quite drawn to the Republican period during the French Revolution. You can see his illustration of the lictors bringing Brutus the bodies of his sons. If you feel like a visual that would just cheer you up no end. And on that happy note, this brings us to another horrible incident in the Roman Republic, this made our list Dr G and that is the downfall of Spurius Cassius.

Dr G 18:24And look, I’m not going to pretend that I remember much about this one, to be honest. I mean, he clearly he’s important. We spend at least two episodes on him. But. But what did he do?

Dr Rad 18:38Well, this is the thing is first, Cassius, some people might think he’s a bit of a controversial choice. We did talk about him in Episode 72 and 73. Just to be clear, we’re talking about Spurius Cassius Vecellinus, or Vecellinus, which sounds a little bit like Vicks Vapor Rub or something like that to me. But he held the consulship quite a few times. And he seems to have been prominent in this early Republican period as well, because he holds it in 502 and 493, which is kind of a key year, because that’s the year that Rome is dealing with the whole Lake Regillius, and all of that kind of stuff where they’ve been battling the Latins, and so on, and then finally in 486, so yeah, that’s a pretty decent run early on and thinks it does sound impressive. So spirit, Cassius is mostly known, I think, probably there for his downfall, which was a pretty big deal in our show. And look, I think the reason why some people might find him a controversial choice is because his downfall is probably a little bit anachronistic. But nonetheless, I think it was still a pretty big moment and the fact that whether it was entirely in the way that Livy and Dionysius painted it or whether it is a bit of a retrojection from their own time period. It still comes across as a pretty key moment in the republic to me. And that’s because his downfall is very much tied up with the whole question of land redistribution in room.

Dr G 20:15Yes, this is a big and perennial issue.

Dr Rad 20:18So in spite of the fact that Spurius Cassius is a patrician as generally all our early magistrates seem to be, he seems to have been in favor of putting forward an agrarian law that was going to help the barbarians in terms of securing land, which obviously is key to survival and status in the Roman world. His family, patricians weren’t super keen on this idea. And so he ends up being basically, I think, set up as someone who’s aspiring to be a tyrant, and he is convicted and taken down and he ends up being thrown off the Tarpeian rock.

Dr G 21:01Oh, intense. The fact that I can’t even remember this is a testament to just how long were they podcasting. Because that’s a pivotal event!

Dr Rad 21:10Absolutely. I mean, look, for those of you who are fond of the latest Republic, you’ll probably think that this sounds a little bit like a man we mentioned very often for people that are still in the Regal period and the early republic most of the time, and that is Tiberius Gracchus.

Dr G 21:26Yes, everybody’s

Dr Rad 21:29Yeah, Tiberius Gracchus also came to a sticky end because of his push for land laws, and I think fair treatment for the people. And so it is suspected, that perhaps spurious Cassius as life has somehow been maybe jazzed up a little bit, whether with a crack and feel so Gracchan glitter, sprinkle sprinkle. But as you often said to me, Dr. G, it seems really unlikely that our sources would entirely lie to us about something.

Dr G 22:07Yeah, I mean, I tend to I tend to take that line.

Dr Rad 22:12Yeah. And so there must be something about this man. That I think I mean, there must be some truth to his story. I think the nature of his death, I find it hard to believe that people would make that up.

Dr G 22:25Yeah. But the idea that there is a crisis going on, and that somebody is trying to stand up for the little man, that seems relatively believable. I mean, that’s the broad brushstrokes of the story. You’re like, okay, I can I can be on board with something like that. That makes sense. It’s politically expedient, if nothing else, to try and pick up some of that support in some way.

Dr Rad 22:53For sure, and like, we don’t know, a lot of things about the Republic, including exactly how land that was public land was managed to this point in time, we can’t be entirely certain how much of an issue, land ownership was, at this time, in the sense that I’m sure it was an issue because, you know, as I said, it is the basis of wealth and prosperity and status in this society. So I’m sure it’s probably always an issue. But at the same time, we can’t be entirely sure exactly if the nature of the tension at this point in time, but I had to put Spurius Cassius on the list, because to me, it seems like he was actually maybe one of the not so bad patrician, because you and I are both crazy leftist.

Dr G 23:41That’s true. And it’s very rare that one of the good guys comes through. Well, I think this leads us to our third on the list on our top 10 Lars Porsenna. What a man what a man. And this guy is like a king from outside of Rome, who manages according to some sources to take over Rome.

Dr Rad 24:09Absolutely. I mean, how could we not bring back Lars Porsenna, the king of Clusium?

Dr G 24:15Look at him go. And not just king of Clusium I tell you, he might also be in charge of this place as well.

Dr Rad 24:23Yeah, so last four centers on we talked about as well back in the very, very early days of the Republic. But I do enjoy this story. And I do remember this story. So that that tells you something. We did talk about him for a number of episodes if you go back to our 40s because that’s how long ago it was. You’ll find a number of episodes that mention Lars Porsenna.

Dr G 24:45And there is this great set piece story of the moment that Porsenna is trying to infiltrate Rome militarily speaking, and there is the amazing story You have of Hartius Cocles who defends Rome from this attack, over the only bridge that appears to exist at this point in time, the Sublician bridge over the Tiber.So this means that Porsenna’s forces are sitting somewhere near the Janiculum. And it means that the Romans are kind of like this is our last chance to defend ourselves. It’s this bridge or bust. And Horatius Cocles does some incredible work to try and save Rome

Dr Rad 25:33That he does. In fact, I believe from memory he cops are very serious butt wound in the process.

Dr G 25:35I was gonna say he saves Rome’s arse, but he’s not able to save his own.

Dr Rad 25:38So true, so true. So Porsenna is it is a really interesting character because he comes up seemingly because the exiled Tarquin and dynasty have taken refuge with him, and perhaps trying to persuade him to attack Rome. And I guess they’re hoping that this is going to be their avenue back into power, since that conspiracy inside of Rome has failed.

Dr G 26:14Du-du-duuuun.

Dr Rad 26:16I know. But scholars have tried to make sense of this because whilst Livy and Dionysius represent it in this kind of light. We have later sources like Tacitus, and plenty that are seemingly certain that Porsenna actually captured Rome, really low point, obviously, for Rome, because not only did he capture it, but he also brought in some really, really serious baby steps that were not beneficial to Rome at all.

Dr G 26:45Yeah, I mean, I think it’s an interesting sort of alternative tradition, as it were, because you’ve got the Romans very much are interested in not being captured by an external force. And they do have to navigate that at various points in their history. So for this to be one of the examples that they don’t necessarily agree on, I think is fascinating and tells us something about the politics of this moment. And this, I think, heads right back in towards what we know about the Roman kings as well, in terms of like, was there an Etruscan takeover during the Regal period? And, you know, the sources try to worm their way away from that interpretation in various ways. And it seems like maybe something similar could be happening here.

Dr Rad 27:38Definitely. I mean, some people say Porsenna is actually the real end of the monarchy, because he starts being a problem for Rome in about 508. So a year after the kings have been kicked out, supposedly. But yeah, some scholars have seen this as actually being the moment where the monarchy ended, because you have this foreign takeover of Rome. But that when looking back, the Romans maybe found it a bit easier to write a history where the kings were horrible, and they were kicked out. And then they allied with persona, and therefore, these guys were the enemy together, rather than Porsenna potentially being the person to come in and take room. And also, of course, Porsenna’s lengthy campaign against the Rams, because it lasts for quite some time. He’s really an annoyance to them for a good four years, maybe five years according to our records. We have some of the most famous moments of the early republic, including Gaius Mucius Cordis otherwise known to history as Scaevola.

Dr G 28:45Hmm.

Dr Rad 28:47And this is another of course, amazing moment of virtus much like Horatius Cocles that you mentioned earlier. So Scaevola’s story is all about room being besieged by Porsenna. They’re not in a great state. So this guy, guy sneaky has caught us, puts his hand up, puts his hand up and says, you know, I’ll infiltrate the camp. I’ll pretend to be a deserter. And I will assassinate Porsenna and that will put an end to this whole issue.

Dr G 29:18We’ll cut off the head of the Hydra. That’s how we’ll do it.

Dr Rad 29:22Exactly. Now, I won’t go into all the details of his story. But eventually he is found out within the camp of Porsenna. He actually ends up putting his own hand into flames to sort of be like Hiiiii. And Porsenna is so impressed by his bravery, by his physical fortitude, that he releases him.

Yeah, and this is where this is where the hand thing comes in, because of course Scaevola is a name that he earns apparently, yeah, because he becomes “The Left Handed”.

Dr G 30:01Well yes, the right one. It’s a bit dodgy now.

Dr Rad 30:05So we’ve got that famous moment. And then of course, we’ve got a very rare appearance from a heroic woman.

Dr G 30:11Oh yeah, I’m excited about the story of Cloelia, who manages to get some hostages back to Rome at a daring escape. And for this, she gets awarded an equestrian statue. And this is huge. It’s very rare for Roman women to win a statue of any kind. And, yeah, she stands out as one of the very impressive early Republican women.

Dr Rad 30:42Absolutely. Now, of course, the fact that scandal or include Cloelia and Horatius Cocles are probably mythological figures should not dampen our enjoyment of their stories. And also, we have to thank Lars Porsenna for bringing them to us.

Dr G 30:59Thank you, Porsenna. Okay, number four on our list, the first secession of the plebs. Now this, this is a massive issue.

Dr Rad 31:08Yeah, the moment that started at all I mean, we’re still dealing with the repercussions of the struggle of the artist, and we will be for so many more episodes,

Dr G 31:16We will and you know, it’s tied up to some elements of debt. And there seems to be like, how do you get yourself out of debt? And how do you get yourself out of debt bondage, this is a real problem. So the plebeians are struggling under the economic shackles of the early republic, not that they weren’t suffering under the Kings, they probably were, but it’s now it’s really a headline act. Now the the trouble that the plebs are facing, and the consuls are taking a pretty hard line on this sort of stuff, and they do not want to negotiate. And this ultimately means that the plebs decide to leave room altogether. They’re like, that’s it. You know what, I cannot live in this place, if you’re going to treat me so badly. I’m the guy that gets up every day when there’s a war, and I fight on the front lines. And when I come home, it’s all just taxation, and enslavement, and no land, and what am I supposed to do with my life? Why don’t I live over here on this hill, so they repair to somewhere else, they’re like, I’m out. I’m just out, I’ll make friends with other people, I’ll find a new place to live, it’s going to be fine. And it takes a lot of backwards and forwards diplomacy on the behalf of some very patient, but sympathetic patricians to talk to these guys and really be like, Look, actually, Rome cannot be Rome. Without you. We are a unified people. And I think this is the moment where we get the head and the stomach analogy coming for that moment where the patricians or the head and the plebeians of the stomach, and neither can function without the other. And it’s some sort of glorious symbiotic relationship that exists.

Dr Rad 33:12Yeah, that’s the immortal words of Menenius Agrippa. There, give me the analogy of look, Rome is like a body. And you guys have you know, the hands and that kind of stuff, and the patricians of the stomach and we just need to absorb what you give us and, and we also take on board, you know, the, the food to the brain, and we end up being the mastermind of this whole operation.

Dr G 33:34Ah the patricians are the stomach, of course.

Dr Rad 33:39Look, I had to put this one on the list, personally, not only because we’ve been talking about the struggle of the orders, which is this lengthy tension between patricians and plebeians, which we have so little information on considering how long it apparently lasted. But it certainly been the topic of many episodes it. In fact, I don’t think there are many episodes where we don’t mention something about the patricians and plebeians at this point in time, whether it’s warranted or not. And so I thought, we have to mention this particular moments in Republican history. Because again, it’s one of those moments sliding doors, as you say, where everything could have really changed because, of course room at the time was at war with the Sabines in the Volsicians. And the patricians really needed the plebeians to come back, which I think is probably why they entered into negotiations in the first place.

Dr G 34:33And lucky they did I mean, it works out well for the patricians as far as I can tell.

Dr Rad 34:39It did it did indeed, because they do end up prevailing upon the plebeians to come back. And one of the things that the plebeians apparently get out of coming back is, of course, the office of the tribune of the plebs. The tribune of the plebs. They’ve caused me so much To light with all their troublesome meddling.

Dr G 35:04Well, and this is actually a really interesting segue to number five on this list. So it is the life and times of Volero Publilius. Which is fair enough, and you might think to yourself, now wait, I remember those episodes. What’s that got to do with the tribune of the plebs. But the whole year that this guy is involved with and his rise up is preluded by the sudden death and probable murder of a tribune of the plebs. A Gnaeus Genucius. And so this is what 473 BCE. And so this kind of time period, a we’ve clearly got a little bit of political tension in the city. We’ve we’ve got a tribune of the plebs turning up dead, which is a bit of a disaster, because those guys are supposed to have inviolable bodies. Under no circumstances, are they meant to be murdered? And so, this kind of sets the scene for what will be the life and times of Volero? Publius.

Dr Rad 36:21Absolutely. Because this guy Volero Publilius. Or, if we use his slightly easier version of his name, Volero Publius. Gah that rolls off the tongue so much easier. He is a centurion. So kind of just a fairly average joe, Dr. G. You know how it goes. He turns up to enlist for the army, because that’s what you do. If you’re a decent Roman man, you do duty, even though it’s tough. But when he turns up to enlist, he finds that he has seemingly been demoted from centurion to a common soldier.

Dr G 37:04Ouch.

Dr Rad 37:06Could there be a larger disgrace for a man like this? Who’s done his duty for so many years?

Dr G 37:12Oh, just you wait, I think there might be.

Dr Rad 37:16So causes a bit of a fuss. He ends up being bundled up by the lictors. And nobody’s very happy about this situation. We ended up getting full on brawling in the streets of Rome, that plebeians will not have these violent hands being laid on Volero, not they’re Volero.

Dr G 37:35No, yeah, this brawling really gets out of hand because Volero is pretty adamant that nobody should be laying any hands on him. He’s merely raising some important questions about the whole situation. And he’s like, I’ve fought for a long time. What do you mean, I’m not not a centurion anymore? And, you know, so he’s raising those questions, he gets bundled up by the lectores. So this means that the consuls essentially at the levy doing their job of getting soldiers enrolled, and their electors are then like, on him, because he’s starting to cause some trouble. But instead of that settling the trouble, what this does is inflames the street violence, because the plebeians that are there at the time, presumably also lining up to satisfy the levy are like, wait a minute, if this can happen to this guy, this could happen to us. Oh, no, it’s time. And so like, whatever that five is, and that tension in the air for this particular levy, it does not go well. And things get so out of hand that reportedly the fast skis themselves get broken, which is a lot.

Dr Rad 38:46Absolutely. I mean, the fast guys are meant to be this representation of the consul’s power over the population to beat them and if necessary to execute them, so that they have smashed these out, is a pretty big message of defiance. And I think if we put this all together with the mysterious death of Genucius, it seems like there’s some serious class issues going on in Rome at this time. And of course, Volero ended up being quite a character in a few of our episodes. Chi Chi, so I had to put him on the list because I had fond memories of him,

Dr G 39:20He’s always standing up for the little man.

Dr Rad 39:22Yeah, absolutely.

Dr G 39:24So number six on our list, the Sneak Attack of Appius Herdonius, the Sabine in 460 BCE. This is an epic moment in Rome’s history. I have to say this one stands out just because it is both horrifying and surprising and then becomes an environment in which a whole bunch of people really go to in terms of Roman virtus.

Dr Rad 39:57Absolutely. I vividly remember Are these episodes where we talked about this because I don’t think it’s something you hear about all that often, I guess, because it’s kind of in the middle of this century that is kind of known for being a tough one for the entire area room included. And it’s not a period that people I think dwell on too much. So I don’t think I’d actually ever heard of this, say, by an attack on Rome before.

Dr G 40:23But the Sabines actually take the Capitol. And this is the thing that makes you want to follow up on a story like this, because there are really famous stories of Rome being sacked by the goals and things like that stories that we have not reached our narrative episodes. But before those pivotal moments, we have something like this, like the Republic is always in danger, there is never a moment where it is really safe. And the city is constantly under pressure from its neighbours. And for the Sabines to turn up and to do a sneak infiltration into the Capitol, which is the most sacred hill of the city is suggestive that of Rome sort of like place within this broader relationship in central Italy, it is by no means secure in its own power. And when they find out about this attack, they really are on the backfoot. And they have to get all of their forces organized quite quickly to defend the interior. And this is tough, because the Capitol is a hill and the Romans themselves and not on the top of that hill.

Dr Rad 41:39Crucial error.

Dr G 41:40This is bad news. And so we have the the tragic death of Valerius Publicola, one of the heroes of the Romans, who’s who was famous for holding, I think, many consulships by this point. And he is lost in this battle. This is a tragedy. But also and we learn this much later. This is also a battle that Dentatus fights in. So we’ll come back to that guy. But Dentatus is here fighting as well. And he talks about this battle in really particular terms because it is so intense.

Dr Rad 42:21This is true. And I think that the other reason why I had to mention this one as one of our top 10 moments is because it’s an ancient Roman example of fake news. Because of course, this episode has something to do with the conflict of the orders as well, because I think one of the reasons why the Sabines were supposedly able to sneak into Rome and seize the Capitol before people seem to really know what was going on, is that the Romans were really distracted by their own internal problems. The young patricians, my favorite characters of our show, had been terrorizing the plebeians. And when trouble initially is afoot, because of Appius Herdonius, it seems that there’s some suspicion that may be the consuls, just saying that there’s an attack and an invasion, in order to deal with the class warfare because this is the classic go to patrician move, right to distract the plebeians with external problems, so that they will stop talking about their unhappiness with the internal political situation. And the tribunes I think, are encouraging them to believe that this is, you know, this is potentially something that the consuls have stirred up, either that or that this is their moment to stand firm and not act and be like, well, this is what happens. I don’t want to serve when you don’t treat me very well. Maybe I’d be better off with the Sabines. Have you ever thought about that patricians?

Dr G 43:48Disaster, if they don’t fight now, they’ll lose everything they ever, ever valued.

Dr Rad 43:53Exactly. So they do they do come together as at this point, they always seem to do, but I think that instance of you know, who do you trust in these moments of crisis? Who do you listen to? Who are the authority figures that you go to? To get reliable sources of information? I mean, that always touches a bit of a nerve with me.

Dr G 44:14Fair enough. And as a historian, I’m not surprised.

Dr Rad 44:19All right, and that brings us to number seven on the list.

Dr G 44:21Ooh, this is the death of Verginia slash or the beginning of the end of Appius Claudius

Dr Rad 44:30I like to say is about we’re getting out because we get so few women in the Republic, it’s crazy.

Dr G 44:36And it looks like Verginia holds a really particular place in this narrative of the end of the decemvirate. So there is a point in which the Republic of Rome does collapse. This there is no doubt and it doesn’t take very long into it. And what replaces it is this decemvirate this group of 10 men who refuse to let go of power, and Appius Claudius is by far the most proud and offensive of the lot of them, but also the one who’s most charismatically in charge, apparently, honing in on those very patrician qualities that the Romans really quite like, from their elites, you know, the arrogance, the refusal to negotiate, and all of that kind of stuff.

Dr Rad 45:27This is all tied up with again, part of the apparent struggle of the orders, although we’ve switched, as you may have noticed, for I’m talking about land issues to talking about the laws, because this all came out of the law about the laws, which became a big issue, I think, particularly in the late 460s in the 450s, where it seemed like the issue so that obedience became that they really wanted to have set down somewhere, the rules that were being applied to their society, which seemingly the patricians who occupied the senior magistracies and priesthoods had exclusive knowledge of or access to. And so the decemvirate was meant to fix all of that they were meant to produce a law code, and the first decemvirate went pretty well, but the second decemvirate, as you say, not so much, because they decided they were going to stay in power forever.

Dr G 46:13Yeah, rather than producing the laws and letting everybody get on with it. They were like, wait a minute, I’m enjoying this power, what if I don’t do my job and just stay forever?

Dr Rad 46:23Exactly. Now, we spent quite a lot of time talking about this. So we won’t go into heaps of detail now. But essentially, beginning I think, becomes a bit of a symbol for Appius Claudius, and the way that he is out of control.

Dr G 46:35Yeah, she is a reputedly a very beautiful young woman. And he decides that he desires her and that he can have her because he’s so powerful, and no one can stop him. And as it turns out, the Romans don’t agree with that. And despite his best efforts to try and find a way to make it legal for him to have his way with her, she is defended by her family at every turn. And they go into bat for her, and they see the injustice and they rail against it. And ultimately, it ends in tragedy, where her father is with Verginia. And they’re in the forum together. And it seems like what Appius Claudius is going to do is he’s going to seize her anyway, and just do his business. And Verginia’s father decides that the only way to save her from this fate is to is to kill her.

Dr Rad 47:39Absolutely. And this is such a pivotal moment, it really seems to be the turning point for I think a lot of people when it comes to Appius Claudius and a second decemvirate, as you say, becomes the kind of the thread that is pulled and starts to unravel that whole regime. But what a tragedy for a woman’s death, murder at the hands of her own father in public, how, yeah, how deeply disturbing it is that this is how it is in Rome, that a woman must die in such circumstances or so it would seem in order for tyranny to be brought to justice.

Dr G 48:18Yes, it tells tell us something about the way that this society dysfunctionally navigates its relationship with women,

Dr Rad 48:25Indeed. And that of course, then brings us to another person who fell afoul of the second decemvirate and that is Lucius Siccius Dentatus.

Dr G 48:36Dentatus, the man born with teeth. I shall never forget. And Dentatus is renowned, first and foremost for being an excellent soldier. And he earns a reputation in some of the latest source material as the Roman Achilles, which I think is fantastic. But he also at some point is able given the opportunity to to stand up in front of the crowd to speak at the rostra. And boy, does he reveal his political hand at that point, because he has been a soldier for 40 plus years, by the time he gets to speak. And he tells everybody about his achievements, his golden crown for recovering the standards, which he did personally when he was 27 years old. talks about his 45 wounds that he’s received over the course of his 40 year career. All of those wounds on the front of his body, very respectful. Everybody’s like bow down. The man is great. Not only that 12 of those wounds he tells us were received on the day that Herdonius seized the Capitol. So that you know, there’s there’s references even within our top 10 lens.

Dr Rad 48:53Link!

Dr G 49:07You can have a top 10 list but they all connected. He also won 14 corona civica. So this is the crown for saving a Roman citizen himself three corona muralis for going over the wall first and numerous other awards and and then he says, regardless of all of this, all of the things that I’ve achieved in my career, I have no land that I can call my own basically starts riot right there. Everyone’s like, oh my god, it doesn’t matter how hard you work in life, the system is rigged against us and we’re never going to have anything. And so this becomes his – he might not realize it at the time, but this speech becomes the speech that really gets him into the tribuncianship. So he becomes a tribune of the plebs on the back of this kind of like discussion. Everyone’s like, well, if this guy, this guy will be able to get us the land. So we’ve, we’ve switched from like law about the laws, which is also very important simultaneously back to like, the first crux issue that the plebeians had raised, which is like, we need some land to be able to do our farming and look after ourselves.

Dr Rad 51:12Yeah, well, I think there’s no matter no matter what you’re talking about, with the struggle of the orders, there are three themes that float in and out. And there doesn’t seem to be much rhyme or reason to why certain issues are, you know, prevalent at certain times and not others, but it’s definitely land allotment. That’s one, debt bondage and debt. That’s another and the law about the laws. And essentially, what that is relating to obviously, as we said, is like control of the knowledge.

Dr G 51:37Yeah, a law about the laws is basically also the publication of law in such a way that the everyday man can have access to it.

Dr Rad 51:47Yeah, we know they had laws before the 12 Tables, which is what comes out of the decemvirate. But as you say, it’s about well, does everybody know about them? Does everybody have access to them in this sort of society? Probably not.

Dr G 52:00It’s unlikely. I think it’s suffice to say that the old Dentatus gets on the wrong side of the elites, which at this time, are the decemvirs.

Dr Rad 52:15Oh, yeah, he’s another he’s another for being here. And we love our party and heroes like Volero and Dentatus

Dr G 52:21But it doesn’t go well. And it seems like Dentatus who sent back into the fray essentially, after his tribuncian days are over. And he is of the understanding that he is going to be meeting up with the army and getting the right sort of support. But instead what happens is some Roman soldiers have been paid, it would seem to turn against their own and he is taken down. And this all comes out eventually. hugely problematic. But at the time, it’s told us a story of tragedy being like we lost Dentatus. Who knew?

Dr Rad 52:58You know what that sounds like? To me, Dr. G. It sounds like an evil plan.

Dr G 53:05There is some conspirosity going on.

Dr Rad 53:09Couldn’t get through our 10 year anniversary about an evil plan.

Dr G 53:13Fair enough! Fair enough.

Dr Rad 53:14Speaking of evil plans. That brings us to number nine analysis, which is the rise and fall of Spurius Maelius.

Dr G 53:21A popular figure. This guy is a plebeian who happens to be quite rich,

Dr Rad 53:27Another plebeian hero!

Dr G 53:29Yeah, plebeian hero. It doesn’t bode well for him either. Like spoilers, as as we’re all aware. So it’s, there is a crippling famine in Rome. And it’s around about 444-39 BCE. And there is a prefect of the grain, Lucius Minucius, who is in charge of making sure that Rome is fed. And he is having trouble completing that task, because grain is in short supply.

Dr Rad 53:56It is and I’m sorry, I just have to interrupt because you’re not using his official title, which is the Nacho King of Rome. And I think we all agreed on that.

Dr G 54:05I’m sorry. I’m sorry. Lucius Minucius. The Nacho King of Rome, is in charge of sourcing grain, but he’s finding it hard to purchase it at a reasonable price. And it seems like everybody else is also going through a famine. So maybe they’re not for sale. These grains are not for buying. And so he’s having some issues. So enter stage left Spurius Maelius, very rich plebeian, who’s like, well, you got to offer more cash, you know, very Han Solo about it. And so he sets up some relationships that really do work out and he has riverboats of grain coming into the city, and they are stamped all over with the name spirits. Maelius bought this grain and the plebeians, they know. They might not be able to read everything, but they can tell and yeah, You know, Maelius is handing it out and the plebeians take the position that well, if spurious, Maelius is bringing in the grain, surely that makes him the prefect of the grain.

Dr Rad 55:18Exactly, we’ve got a new natural King in town, and I’m loving it.

Dr G 55:22Not only is this guy bringing it in, it’s raining grain, and I’m hungry. So this guy is now he’s our prefect, this is man we go to nothing could be more calculated to ruin a patrician stay than finding out that their position of political power has been hoisted out from underneath them by a plebeian and popular support. Minucius is not happy. And this leads to trouble. Ultimately, things get really, really like sort of heated and chaotic, and it seems that the Romans decide that maybe murder is okay.

Dr Rad 56:04Yeah, there seems to be a bit like the whole Porsenna plot with Scaevola. Or it seems in some accounts, like this is a case of state-sanctioned murder.

Dr G 56:15It does feel that way. And you know, they institute a dictator. So and this is all coming from the elites, obviously. So a dictator is put into place. He asked for a master of the horse, a madman, basically volunteers. He was like, I love stabbing people. Let me stab somebody.

Dr Rad 56:33They’re like, they will hold a sign that he was a madman. I mean, for God’s sakes, his name means “Armpit”.

Dr G 56:38And so you know, they send Ahala “the armpit” off to Maelius. And then a hollow does away with him in broad daylight. And everyone’s like, wait a minute, did that. Did that guy just murdered that? Wait, what? No.

Dr Rad 56:55Yeah, so this is another guy who I mean, he is an equestrian. So he is actually as we say, he’s wealthy. He’s not suffering, like the average Roman citizen probably is at this point in time. But nonetheless, like Spurius Cassius before him, he seems to be someone who’s at least trying to do something for the people may be self motivated. I mean, you know, it’s rare in this world for anyone to do anything for free. But nonetheless, he seems to be doing these nice things for the people at this time of crisis. And in my account, certainly, it was all painted like he was again aspiring to tyranny like trying to make himself a king or something like that. Just like whisperers, Cassius before him, you know, where he ends up being accused of aspiring to some sort of higher power. And, of course, that’s a surefire way to get rid of someone in ancient Rome.

Dr G 57:47Goodness me.

Dr Rad 57:47We spent, we spent quite a bit of time dealing with Spurius Maelius and mopping up that whole affair, so we couldn’t help but mention him.

Dr G 57:53Oh, look, I think I think it’s a it’s a nicer second last position, because coming in, drumroll, please. Number 10, for 10 years of the podcast, it’s all as Cornelius Cossus vs. Lars Tolumnius. This is our second Lars in the top 10.

Dr Rad 58:22It’s no coincidence that he’s also Etruscan.

Dr G 58:23No, I remain unsurprised.

Dr Rad 58:26No. But look, I had to put Cossus in because over the years, we have had several really, really ridiculously good looking men come into history,

Dr G 58:37It would be a shame to miss out old Cossus. One because he’s very good looking, according to all reports, but also he achieved something that has not yet been achieved in the Republic until he does it. And that is for him as a military commander to slay the enemy commander. So in the field about a one on one, and this is what Cossus reputedly does with Lars Tolumnius. And it’s bad like there’s a gouging of the thigh. You know, it depends on who you read, but it gets quiet.

Dr Rad 59:13Yeah, I think last Tolumnius ends up pinned to the ground in my account, which sounds so painful. I really don’t like to think of

Yeah, he gets pushed off his horse and then pinned to the ground and then yeah, it’s it’s unpleasant. So Cossus does something incredibly violent, and has only been topped by Romulus in this regard in terms of taking out an enemy commander. So you have to go right back to the very early days of the Roman kings to get a story quiet like this.

And the reason why he’s number 10 is because Romulus is probably mythical, and there are so many questions about exactly how on earth he managed to get this accolade given that We’re not sure when it happened. We’re not sure if it happened, because there’s so many question marks about when it supposedly happened and what position he was actually holding at the time. But I will say this, to go back to what you always say to me, Dr. G, the Romans really make everything up. So I do believe that last Tolumnius existed, that there was an Etruscan King, and that he was taken out by ridiculously good looking Roman.

Dr G 1:00:28We just don’t know when or exactly how.

Dr Rad 1:00:33Exactly, but what a note to end on uncertainty with our sources, which has also been a constant refrain for 10 years.

Dr G 1:00:42And I don’t think that’s gonna get cleared up anytime soon. To be honest.

Dr Rad 1:00:47It’s not. But look, we hope you enjoyed us counting down our top 10 moments over the Roman republic, and we hope that you appreciate just how violent and bloody and gory really is.

Dr G 1:00:59Yes, and here’s to another 10 years.

Dr Rad 1:01:04To get worse, I think

Dr G 1:01:05Oh, no!

Dr Rad 1:01:06Yeah, but we have so enjoyed having you all along for the ride. We really appreciate your support. We’ve accomplished things that I don’t think we ever dreamed of when we first sat down in one of Dr. G’s apartments that you have had in the time I’ve known you. Actually, I was just remembering the other day how there have been recording sessions where you know, one of us would go over to the others house and then someone next door to be doing renovations and we had to flee to the library and the library kept putting announcements over the loudspeaker, you would have no idea listeners, just how much we have sometimes been challenged.

Dr G 1:01:42Well, it’s been a wild ride so far, and may it long continue.

Dr Rad 1:01:47And I mean, I’m actually amazed that we’ve managed to get through this podcast without one of our little furry guests making an appearance. It’s true,

Dr G 1:01:53My cat has been yelling outside the door.

Dr Rad 1:01:58Well, here’s to another 10 years, Dr. G. Thank you so much for starting the Partial Historians with me.

Dr G 1:02:05Oh, and thank you, and always huge thanks to you listening it out there.

Dr Rad 1:02:23Thank you for listening to this extra special episode of the Partial Historians. Dr. G and I are so proud that we finally been able to put an X on the old bedpost and we’re looking forward to notching up a few more because our passion for ancient Rome will never fade. And we are so incredibly grateful that we have found other people who not only love ancient Rome, but love making fun of ancient Rome as much as we do. When we started out in 2013. I don’t know that we were entirely certain that two women from Down Under who love history would necessarily find an audience. And yet, here you are. Thank you so much. We particularly like to thank anybody who’s ever reached out to us and written us a really kind message, or written a five star review, you have no idea how much particularly as independent podcasters those mean to us as we’re researching, recording and editing the show. This is probably also a good time to thank our Patreons, I mean, where would we be without our Patreons past and present, it means so much that you would consider spending your hard earned money on our show. And you’ve certainly allowed us to upgrade our equipment. And we’re also looking to expand into new areas this year. So keep your eyes peeled. Speaking of new areas, we’d like to thank Highlands Press our publisher. It’s been so much fun to be able to write a book together, particularly a book that’s kind of rooted in our podcast. So thank you so much to the Highlands Press. On a more personal note, as we sign off, we would like to thank our friends and family who have offered us constructive criticism, support, they have been very tolerant at the time that we’ve invested in the show over the years. We’d also like to say thank you and hello to all the podcasting community that have been so generous with their time and expertise over the years. It really is an amazing community to be a part of and social media has allowed us to connect with so many other podcast shows all over the world. And it’s been such a blast getting to know you all and we look forward to many further collaborations. And also as a part of that, we would like to say thank you to anyone who has ever guessed it on the Partial Historians. What a special honour it has been to talk to so many academics who have been incredibly generous with their time and expertise. And I think we can all say that we have learned so much from those special episodes and I just can’t imagine a bigger privilege than being able to talk to academics about their specialty. So with all that being said, it’s time for Dr. G and I to sign off. That’s 10 years a wrap. And until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Prepare yourself, dear listener, for a drought or two! After spending several episodes on individual years, we are speeding ahead in our latest episode. We are covering not one, not two, but THREE years in a single instalment. Join us as we tackle 430, 429 and 428 BCE.

Episode 134 – A Dry Period

Financial Affairs

The Romans enjoy a remarkably peaceful year in 430 BCE. This means that they can turn their attention to financial matters. At least the new law that is introduced seems to benefit the people.

A Year About Nothing

The citizens must be confused as the peace continued into 429 BCE. No war? No internal conflict? Are we trapped in an episode of Seinfeld?

30-1200x720-1-1024x538.jpg" alt="Image shows the four main characters from the sitcom Seinfeld" class="wp-image-4347">

A classic photo of the Seinfeld cast. Source: www.geekblast.com.br

The Return of Cossus

The ridiculously handsome Aulus Cornelius Cossus returns for a consulship in 428 BCE. Thank goodness! We need some eye candy around here. The drama returns to Rome with raiders from Veii and Fidenae. However, the Romans cannot stay mad for long. A severe drought devastates the people. We’ve hit a dry period in this very dry period.

All the Romans could think about was how to improve their relationship with the gods. Will their luck turn around?

Looking to catch up on why Cossus is so famed? We’ve got your back:

• Episode 129 – Lars Tolumnius and the Fate of Fidenae
• Episode 130 – The Cossus Controversy

Things to Look Out For

• Confusion over consuls (Who really was in charge in 428 BCE, Livy?)
• Colony building
• Irritating skin diseases
• Aediles taking care of business
• A special commission
• Confusion over bovine equations
• Book promotions. Gotcha! press.com/highlands-press-bookstore/">You can buy our book HERE!

Our Players 430 BCE

Consuls

• L. (or C.) Papirius – f. – n. Crassus (Pat) Cos. 436
• L. Iulius (Vop. F. C. n.?) Iullus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438

Censors

• L. Papirius (Pat)
• P. Pinarius (Pat)  

Our Players 429 BCE

Consuls

• Hostius Lucretius – f. – n. Tricipitinus (Pat)
• L. Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) Cos. 437, Mil. Tr. c.p. 433, 424, 418

Our Players 428 BCE

Consuls Ordinarii

• A. Cornelius M. f. L. n. Cossus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 426
• T. Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat) Cos. 431, Mil. Tr. c.p. 426, 420

Suffect Consuls

• L. Quinctius (L. f. L. n. Cincinnatus) (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 438, 425, 420?
• A. Sempronius (L. f. A. n. Atratinus) (Pat)

Special Commission

• L. Sergius (Fidenas) (Pat) Cos. 437
• Q. Servilius (Priscus Fidenas) (Pat)
• Mam. Aemilius Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c.p. 438

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Cicero De Republica 2.60; Diodorus Siculus 12.72.1-12.75.1; Festus 203-4L, 220L; Plutarch Romulus 16.
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.30 and Cicero’s De Republica 2.60.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy: Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press). 

Sound Effects

Sound effects courtesy of Fesliyan Studios and Orange Free Sounds. Thanks to the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Roma, Lazio, Italia. Acquedotti. Source Wikimedia Commons. Photographer iessi

Automated Transcript

This transcript was generated by Otter AI. Apologies for any errors.

Dr Rad 0:17Welcome to the Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:20we explore all the details of ancient

Dr Rad 0:23ruins. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:35And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:15And I am one of your other hosts Dr. G. Welcome to the show.

Dr Rad 1:21That sounds like there are more to come.

Dr G 1:23And you imagine if we expanded our repertoire and brought other people in as hosts? I don’t know if that the vibe would be the same.

Dr Rad 1:31No, I don’t think each of us could handle that. We’re already too talkative. To two fabulous. Exactly. Yes. So, Dr. G, I’m so glad to see you. Because it’s been too long since we talked about the history over and from the founding of the city. Why it feels like more than 24 hours.

Dr G 1:51I can’t get enough to be honest. And I’m excited to dive in because on the back of where we just wrapped up, which was 431 BCE, and I’m still getting over various mascius being such an incredible dude.

Dr Rad 2:08And then disappearing without a trace. Suspicious. I mean, I think we all know what happened to him, but still,

Dr G 2:16did it involve stepping maybe

Dr Rad 2:19you don’t get to throw a name as fabulous as that out there. Maybe and then not tell me what happened to this man.

Dr G 2:25Look, Livy is letting you down right now. I’m sorry.

Dr Rad 2:29Well, I mean, Dionysius has disappeared. So you know, glass houses, stones?

Dr G 2:35I might not have any sources, but boy, do I have names?

Dr Rad 2:39That’s right. Dr. G, let’s do a quick recap. So we’ve given a bit of a hint there about what happened last episode. But where are we up to in the narrative of rooms history last time we spoke?

Dr G 2:52Look, as far as I can remember, it was a pretty exciting year full of ups and downs, military prowess by the Romans, everybody heading out down south for a bit of a battle at Mount Algidus and just mayhem generally speaking, I believe there was a dictator could be wrong about that.

Dr Rad 3:13There definitely was a dictator.

Dr G 3:15I had lots of like little supplementary sources hinting at various things that happened in this year because it was Tubertus as dictator and he was quite an incredible figure. And he’s made it into the history books, partly on the back of a story that we’re not sure can be fully ascribed to him. It might be apocryphal, that involves the killing of his own son for disobeying orders on the battlefield.

Dr Rad 3:42Yeah, Postumius Tubertus showed his stuff on the battlefield against the aqueous and the Volscians to great acclaim. And then bit sour for us. Not for the Romans killed his own son. Maybe, maybe not.

Dr G 3:57Yeah, yeah, if so: tragic, but also a huge demonstration of Roman virtus, placing the state before anything else.

Dr Rad 4:05Exactly. So basically, we left Rome on a bit of a military high, I suppose you could say last episode. Yeah. They’re excited. Yeah, exactly. Which means it’s a perfect time to transition into another year. So I think we’re heading into 430 BC.

All right, Dr. G, so it’s 430 BCE. Tell me who’s in charge.

Dr G 4:53So it’s a good question. I literally have the names of the consoles and the names of the sensors. And that is almost all I have in terms of source material.

Dr Rad 5:06I kind of fake it. Yeah, I kind of fake it and that’s why I thought I’d let you tell me who the magistrates were

Dr G 5:11That’s very kind of you. So as you know, Dionysus of Halicarnassus is sadly missing in action is becoming more and more fragmentary, and will soon be completely gone. The Fasti Capitolini is also missing for these years. So we’re relying on some fastI records that are kind of like a little bit of a backup system. This means I’m left with source material like Diodorus Siculus, a little reference from Cicero, and a bit of Festus, which has never really been translated into English, so I had to do a bit of a dodge on the Latin. So

Dr Rad 5:48Latin Oh, no.

Dr G 5:50I know I used to be alright at Latin. Now it’s just a little bit tricky, but you know, I gave it a whirl. So our consuls for this year. Lucius, in brackets or Gaius Papirius, son of nobody grandson of nobody, Crassus, consul for the second time, apparently, also consul in 436 BCE.

Dr Rad 6:15Yeah, they’re amazing. Papirius I remember that

Dr G 6:18Papirius Crassus and he’s joined by Lucius. Or Gaius, Julius Vopiscus Iullus . Also a patrician, and was previously military tribune with consular power in 438 for people following the career, like a red hot razor, and was also most famously master of the horse in the previous year to Tubertus himself. So this guy has been elevated from being the master of the horse to the consulship. Fancy, Nancy.

Dr Rad 6:55Nice, nice. Now, I believe you mentioned we have some censors as well.

Dr G 6:59We do. And I mean, things are gonna get a bit weird with the sensors, I think, as I’m sure you’re about to tell me, but we have Lucius Papirius who sounds like he must be related to Lucius Papirius, the consul. I was like, I don’t think this is the same person. But I also can’t be sure Rome…

Dr Rad 7:20I’m not gonna say anything yet. I’m not gonna say any

Dr G 7:22Rome and their names we’ve got two Lucius Papirii, what could be going on. And we also have Publius Pinarius as the co-censor. So the job of the censor is count everything up, basically, check how the population is going, look at the distribution of the wealth and so forth. So I guess we’ll see what happens.

Dr Rad 7:47We will, we will, I mean, their censorship has been an interesting controversy in this past decade. So it’s interesting that we have sensors named again. Now look, I’m not going to not gonna lie. Livy does not have a huge amount of detail for this year. If I’m not alone, I’m going to say yeah, I’m going to say I think this episode might be a low point for Livy as well, and you’ll see why later on. Not as it is not interesting, but just as in in terms of the depth of the information provided, but well, we’ll get to that. Of course, here we are in 430 BC, and what are the tribune of the plebs pushing for but military tributes with consular power? I think you can already know how that wound up given that you’ve given me the magistrates as consuls.

Dr G 8:37Yeah. So they wanted this year to be filled with military treatments with consular power. Is that the idea?

Dr Rad 8:43Yeah, they wanted military ship into the consular power but didn’t get there. It seems to be the way to be honest. They seem to lose more often than they win in this battle. So the previous year, as we mentioned, we had some conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians mentioned and the Romans did pretty well in that scenario. In this year the aqueous erstwhile enemies of room sent envoys to the Romans Senate requesting a treaty the Senate come back yes the Senate come back to the aqueous and say, You know what, why don’t you just flat out surrender and say that were awesome and where the man and nobody can be at room?

Dr G 9:23Fascinating. Okay, so that’s, that’s not really a treaty. That’s just they’re asking Romans like, rather than a treaty, how about you completely submit to us?

Dr Rad 9:32I think that the Romans are doing what I try and do, which is you ask for something that’s more than you want. And then you work your way down.

Dr G 9:41I see. I see a great negotiating strategy from the victor of the battle.

Dr Rad 9:46Yes, exactly. Anyway, it ends up happening that the Aequians secure an eight year truce with Rome.

Dr G 9:54Okay, very specific. We’ll see how that goes. I know

Dr Rad 9:57it is very specific, isn’t it? Eight years like why not just and even 10. Guys, just an x.

Dr G 10:03I mean they use base 10. They, that’s odd. Okay.

Dr Rad 10:07Yeah. Anyway, the Volscians of course, we’re also defeated in this recent military combat that was going on. But internally, they’re now facing division. And to be honest, this I love this because we often find that we end up talking about like, what’s happening in Rome after something big has happened. So it’s kind of nice to get a sneak peek into what apparently is happening for the Volscians. So there are those who want to secure peace with Rome, and those who want to, I think, pursue more war. So they’re kind of arguing amongst themselves, which means Rome is in a very peaceful state, right? There’s not a lot going on.

Dr G 10:49Oh, yeah. Well, if the Volscii Aren’t organised, then they probably still mourning the loss of Messius. Well, I did say I kind of like if we can breed them like that maybe we can take the whole place and make it our own.

Dr Rad 11:01Who knows. So the Romans turned to what they normally do in peaceful times, which is needless bureaucracy.

Dr G 11:09I see the censorship I sense is coming.

Dr Rad 11:12Yes, this is where it is coming in. So Livy mentioned that there was a new law introduced regarding the valuation of fines, which was very popular with the people. Now when it actually happened was that the tribune of the plebs were actually putting this law together, and they knew it would go down well with the people. Unfortunately, one of them got a little bit too chatty, loose lips sink, ships strategy. And so the consuls ended up putting forth a law before the tribunes and they get the credit.

Dr G 11:43Oh, no. Okay, so distributors come up with a great law, only to have it stolen out from underneath them by the consuls. Fascinating.

Dr Rad 11:53Yeah. Now, of course, I had no idea what they were talking about in terms of what this actually involved. I’ve got a little bit of detail on this, I think, okay, I can I can I can say this is where I think Cicero comes in.

Dr G 12:05Yeah. Yeah. So Cicero’s sort of jumps in to the to breach the gap, as it were, of all of our the source material. And, you know, he’s spoiling on about a whole bunch of things like Cicero does. But he’s honing in on this moment of the censorship. And he gets the names, right, generally speaking, and he talks about this transfer of the imposition of fines. So and it’s something to do with lightening the final load for people and figuring out how to measure that so that they can distribute the fines appropriately, but also lower their sort of consequence. In effect, it seems like fines are getting out of control, and nobody’s very happy about it. And their choice seems to be to shift a number of cattle out of private ownership and into public ownership. Now, these are two details. And I do not know how they’re related. How does shifting some cows, from private to public ownership actually alleviate the situation with fines? And I think this is related to how they measure wealth. So how they count up somebody’s assets for the censorship test. If the cows are owned by the people, ‘the public’ as it were, rather than by a certain person individually, then that capital doesn’t count to your asset marker. So you’re looking after some cows, but you don’t technically own the cows.

Dr Rad 13:42Interesting. Yeah. Well, when I was sort of doing a bit of digging into this, the previous law that was replaced by this law was apparently a local the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which was introduced in 454 BCE, so not that long ago. And it apparently had set up the conversion rate for fine. So one ox was the equivalent of 10 sheep was the equivalent of 100 pounds of bronze or 100 asses – aw yeah. Give me that booty. Apparently, see, we’re not entirely sure what is happening with this new law. But we think that the conversion rate is what has been made more favourable. And probably because there might have been people who wish to pay in money, rather than in things like cattle, I guess. And so kind of might have ended the optional payment. This is just a theory. This is a set in stone. It might have ended the optional payment and it might mean that all fines had to be paid in money from this point onwards.

Dr G 14:51Ah, this might tie in I’m not sure necessarily how, but Festus does suggest In a passage 220, from the Lindsay addition, if anybody’s keen for that, that it was about estimating cattle based on the hundreds within the herd for and then sheep were estimated based on the 10s in the herd. So they came up with a new counting method that allowed them to count less, essentially.

Dr Rad 15:22Right. Okay, gotcha. That’s it. It might be there. Yeah, the conversion rate kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, clearly something is going on. It’s getting mathematical. I don’t care for it. Shall we move on to 429 BCE? Because that is all I have.

Dr G 15:38You want to end this year on the high note of bovine counting and we’ll leave it at that.

Dr Rad 15:43I think I’d like to I’d like to leave the cows behind. Let’s move on.

Dr G 15:51Or as the case may be, all right, well, that wraps up what a year to be in Rome.

Dr Rad 16:21Okay, 429 BCE. Tell me what you got Dr. G.

Dr G 16:24Well, no surprise Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.

Dr Rad 16:30I had a hunch. I had a hunch. I’ve learned from history.

Dr G 16:36I think I have even less source material for 429 that I did for 430. Which is kind of a abysmal, because all I’ve got is the consul names. And a little snippet from Diodorus Siculus. Who as we know, tries his best, but is often a little bit confused. So I mean, I’ll take you through it. We have as our consuls, apparently Hostus Lucretius Tricipitinus, so I hate that name. Tri-cip-i-tinus, yeah. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas. And he’s consul for the second time previously consul in 437. And also previously and a little bit more recently, military tribute with consular power in 433. They’re the only magistrates I’ve got names for for this year.

Dr Rad 17:33I don’t have any other magistrates either. So strap yourself in this is what Livy tells me happened in 429. Nothing? Nothing happened.

Dr G 17:45What now?

Dr Rad 17:46Yeah, no, not as in not as in he’s missing like Dionysius, as in, he actually is there. And he just says, Look, nothing happened. So let’s just move straight onto 428.

Dr G 17:56Oh, incredible stuff. Livy. I mean, he loves to talk, I can’t believe we found nothing on this time period at all. Well, that means my source becomes very handy. Diodorus Siculus you back in the mix, buddy. So the thing with Diodorus Siculus. And it’s been going on for a while in his narrative is that there is a about a 10 year discrepancy or more between the things he tells us and when they happened, and how they might line up with when the Roman say that they happened in Rome. So the annalists may be a little bit out in their count, Diodorus might be a little bit out in his count. But the thing that he’s giving us that the Romans aren’t giving us yet is he’s lining things up according to the Athenian dating system, the eponymous Archon in Athens, and generally speaking historians feel pretty confident about those dates. So it’s a bit problematic for all of the Roman writers like Livy to be like, it’s 429 when Diodorus is like it’s 422. We got some missing years somewhere in there something has happened. But the thing that redeems the Roman analysts and where Diodorus then immediately lets himself down as he gets everybody’s names slightly wrong. So

Dr Rad 18:15It doesn’t bode well.

Dr G 18:26No, it’s not great. I feel like he’s probably maybe okay on numbers, but he’s not great on his source material. So there’s a lot going on. He says the consuls for this year are Opiter Lucretius, ‘Opiter’ being a name that we’ve never heard of as a praenomen, so nice try, but probably wrong. And then Lucius Sergius Fideniates which is very close. Yeah, very close. He’s just gotten the last one a little bit a little bit smooshed up.

Dr Rad 19:51Yeah, but I’m not giving him a cigar.

Dr G 19:53Yeah, but maybe you overheard at a dinner party. You know, I feel like that’s the Diodorus Siculus way where it’s like somebody’s saying the names to him when he’s writing them down. He looks at his notes later. And he’s like, What did I even put there? Yes. For the manuscripts.

Dr Rad 20:06Yeah. Look, I agree. Certainly there have been modern academics that have suggested that actually, if we, we probably should shift events around a little bit. And there probably was stuff happening in this year. But just in the version of Livy that we have the way that Livy chose to record things, it seems like a very dull year, indeed.

Dr G 20:28Nothing to report a living well, well, well,

Dr Rad 20:33I think we’re gonna go for a record. That means we’re on tour 428 BCE. Oh, we’re speeding through thing I know, people will think we’ve had a stroke,

Dr G 20:43Dear listeners, calm yourselves. It’s a whole new year again.

Dr Rad 21:10Now, this is a bit of a confusing year, as far as magistrates are concerned.

Dr G 21:14This is very confusing. Yeah. And we’ve got some, there’s a whole bunch of potential issues here. So for instance, one of the things that I was holding on to for a long time, and I think I flagged in many episodes prior to now is that Dionysius of Halicarnassus kicks back in about 428. But I think I was mistaken about that. Having read what is there in the source material, in preparation for this episode, I was like, wait a minute, that doesn’t sound like 428 to me at all. So some minor revisions might have to take place.

Dr Rad 21:56That’s all right, wait, as long as we know that, we’re going to briefly catch a glimpse of him again one day, that’s all we need to know right now.

Dr G 22:03He shall return – not in his full glory – but he’ll be back limping across the finish line in his fragments. So we have two sets of consuls. In this year, as far as I’m aware we’ve got which means we have to divide them up between the consul ordinarii, the ones who named the year and the consul suffectii the ones who sort of fill in, in the back catalogue. But I also have and this is where Broughton, bless his soul is always so helpful. Also knows that there is a special commission in this. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of people involved in the special commission. So we’ve got plenty of names, even if we’re not really quite sure. What is going on.

Dr Rad 22:47I think I can help you with that maybe actually does provide me with some detail this year. So why don’t why don’t you tell me who the magistrates are and then I’ll try and fill in the blanks.

Dr G 22:55All right, this this sounds good to me. It’s a deal. It’s a deal. So our first consul is Aulus Cornelius Cossus.

Dr Rad 23:05Not the most handsome man in the world.

Dr G 23:10You may remember him, dear listeners, for being awesome. In 437, where you may have first encountered him, he was merely a military tribune. But this year, he’s actually a consul.

Dr Rad 23:25Nice.

Dr G 23:26So you know, I mean, I don’t know what he’s been doing for the last 10 years, but I’m gonna assume he’s even more handsome than before.

Dr Rad 23:33Absolutely handsome men don’t need to work hard for political office.

Dr G 23:37I wouldn’t assume so especially when women have the vote. Oh, wait. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. Another quite familiar name at this point is this is his second bite at the consular cherry previously consul in 431 and also most likely one of the sons with a very famous Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 24:03I weas gonna say he’s not THE Cincinnatus.

Dr G 24:06No. Poenas Cincinnatus is one of the sons of the very famous twice dictator Cincinnatus for those tuning in from Cincinnati and possibly also the younger brother of Lucis Quinctius Cincinnatus who has exactly the same name as the great man himself, so very confusing. So those two are consuls. Then apparently we have another two sets of consuls and that would involve Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 24:39Right.

Dr G 24:39The brother

Dr Rad 24:41Just to makes things even more confusing. Yeah.

Dr G 24:44Two Cincinnatuses consul in the same year.

Dr Rad 24:47Did that make them a Cincinnati?

Dr G 24:49I think it does. I think I think we’ve reached the Cincinnati moment. It’s finally happened and also Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.

Dr Rad 25:01We’ve heard that name before.

Dr G 25:04Yeah, I mean, it sounds vaguely familiar to me. But I haven’t written any notes on that. So I have not done my due diligence with that guy.

Dr Rad 25:10Now, I think I don’t think it’s necessarily the same person. But I do remember that name of Atratinus. And of course, Sempronius. I mean, the Sempronii are going to pop up again and again.

Dr G 25:23They are going to have a long legacy as patrician family.

Dr Rad 25:26Yeah.

Dr G 25:27So that’s our two pairs of consuls. Then we head into our special commission, and I’m excited to learn about what this special commission might be all about. But it involves at least three people. Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who cropped up in the previous year as consul. Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas. So, two Fideni in there.

Dr Rad 25:54Yeah.

Dr G 25:54And Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, who we also have previously seen was a military tribute with consular power in 438. And also seems to been appointed to investigate the participation of the Fidenates in the raids led by Veii

Dr Rad 26:19Yeah, so that’s what I’m going to fill in a little bit for you. So let’s get to it. Okay, so we’ve got our consuls of Cossus, who, as you mentioned, was our ridiculously good looking tribune who managed to defeat an Etruscan King on the battlefield had the whole spolia opima thing going on for him which nobody, but Romulus had managed to do so what a consul. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, as you said, now, what starts to happen under their consulship is that the people of Veii start to make moves on Roman territory. A common tale, we have talked about the fact that this time period as much as it seems to be filled with these awesome Hollywood blockbuster epic battles, really seems to be this constant kneeling of Rome and its neighbours and they’re constantly trying to get each other’s territory and steal each other’s stuff. I mean, honestly, it feels a bit like kindergarten sometimes, Dr. G. Now is also rumoured, as you just mentioned that some of the young men from Fidenae were in on these raids. Okay, we’re taking part. Lest we forget, the Romans aren’t feeling really great about Fidenae right now do you want to remind us why?

Dr G 27:40There seems to be a bit of a problem. So in the history of Fidenae, it starts out as a Roman colony that seems to be it’s how it comes into being. So the Romans always consider it theirs. And it’s actually a really strategic anchor point to the slight north of Rome, because it sits on the same side of the Tiber as Rome. And this means that they’ve got a sort of like a defence in the north, that allows them to sort of feel more at ease about where their enemies might be coming at them from. Problem for Rome is that the Fidemae populace decides that they’re not having anything to do with Rome anymore, and they decide to throw in their lot with the Etruscans, which makes a lot of sense, the Etruscans are really quite close. They are a much more numerous people. And if you were looking at a side by side comparison of who you should ally with at in this time period, you’ve got Rome, a single city, a little outpost, run by a bunch of gangsters, versus the Etruscans, who have centuries of history in the region, and a full 12 member kingship going on, there is a lot of power and a lot of history there. They’re well embedded in their power structures. So it makes sense that a reasonable offer might have been made to Fidenae and they fluttered their eyelashes at they and said, well yes, of course we’d love to join you. And Veii and the Etruscans now have a strategic position to filter into Rome from a side that they are not usually able to approach the city from.

Dr Rad 29:26Strategically important. Absolutely. So obviously, they have a bitter taste in the room, his mouth and I’m going to tolerate these rumours that are going on there like look, it’s one thing for today like we expect it from Veii, but Fidenae after everything we’ve just been through, I don’t know think so. So as you mentioned, a special commission is set up I feel like we need to have some some cry music Don’t Don’t do too. And so we got Lucius Sergius, Quintus Servilius and Mamercus Aemilius according to Livy who are putting in charge of looking into these rumours, and some men could not account for their whereabouts at the time in question. So I’m definitely putting the Law and Order vibes right now.

Dr G 30:12You don’t have an alibi. Why? No, sir. I was sleeping in the field.

Dr Rad 30:17Yeah, they were away from Fidenae. And they but where were they? Who could vouch for their whereabouts? Nobody. That’s who. So they are banished to Ostia.

Dr G 30:26I mean, that’s pretty disappointing that they couldn’t even get a friend to lie for them.

Dr Rad 30:32It would seem to be pretty easy back in this day and age but it’s not like they’re battling you know, CCTV and mobile phones cell tower was pinging all around. Nonetheless, the goats were quiet that day. And nobody could say where they were. They’re banished to Ostia. And I guess Rome is also starting to think about, hmm, what can we do with this whole Fidenae situation? Because clearly, they’re still not really on board with this whole idea of being allied with the most awesome city state in all of Italy. Not that it’s known as Italy right now, but hey. So they decided they’re going to send more settlers and establish what not establish a colony, but reinforce the colony at feed name. And so they take land from the property of people who had died. And they give it to the new colonists. So they’re sort of trying to, you know, set them up.

Dr G 31:27Okay, so they shift some things around like, yeah, it’s an offworld opportunity.

Dr Rad 31:33Some creative accounting.

Dr G 31:34Yeah, it’s gonna be very exciting for you here, take this stuff. Yeah, I think the other thing that might be said for this year is this is the year that Cossus holds the consulship. So for some scholars, and it would make sense to go down this path, this is actually the year where the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, is met in battle and is slain directly by Cossus.

Dr Rad 32:03Okay, see, I have that a little bit later in some of the stuff I’ve written. So definitely the fact that he’s consulship. Now is Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 32:11This is yeah, this is one of the candidates is going to pop up. This is going to crop up again.

Dr Rad 32:16And of course, we’ve also got Mamercus Aemilius too. Yeah. also has those connotations. So yes, this is one of the candidates, but I definitely with my Livy narrative, because you know, Livy is my man. I’m going to plump for a bit later on. But anyway, so we’ve got to colony set up at Fidenae. And then of course, it’s been far too peaceful. And Disney-like for too long, Dr. G, a drought hits are really, really bad drought.

Dr G 32:16I see. Okay, I think these things might crop up in a slightly different year for me. So we’ll, we’ll see, we’ll keep going.

Dr Rad 32:54Okay.

Dr G 32:55I’m interested.

Dr Rad 32:55So Livy tells me that it’s not just the fact that it’s not raining very much, which is part of the problem, but also what he calls perennial streams, do not have enough water. So I think that probably means that obviously, where people would normally locate their water, it’s, you know, they don’t usually have any problems from the sources that are drained from from the ground. They’re also drying up.

Dr G 33:19Yeah, yeah. So creeks and small rivers are also dry. Yes, it’s bad time.

Dr Rad 33:25Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, when we don’t have enough water, what happens? People start to die. So basically, the cattle the first today, so they start dying, and you’d find them sort of strewn all around these dried up water sources where they would normally go to get a drink. And they’re also starting to die from mange, which is still a disease that can afflict various animals these days. But basically, it’s some sort of skin condition, which is caused by these parasitic microscopic mites. And what ends up happening is when you’ve got all this drought, people are suffering, cattle are suffering, cattle are dying, cattle are diseased, sure enough, our disease spreads from the cattle to the Roman people. So at first, you start to see people who are living in more rural areas and slaves starting to die, but then also it spreads into the city. And it’s obviously again, I mean, it feels like only yesterday we were talking about a bad sickness in Rome, but it seems like once again, the Romans are really suffering badly.

Dr G 34:28Yeah, I think we would have to assume that if we’re in a situation of this kind of drought, we’re looking at years of consequence, not just a single year, like in order to be in a situation where usual water sources are actually dry. This is an ongoing drought that’s been happening for some time and it’s now getting quite severe.

Dr Rad 34:51Absolutely. Now, the people because they are suffering so badly, they start getting desperate and what In terms foreign superstitions become very popular, and other people in room are starting to take advantage of the situation, presumably to, like make not money like cash, I would presume, but presumably to earn some sort of financial gain or to win influence with people. So some people are pretending to be seers. So sort of taking advantage of that superstitious state desperate state that people are in. And they start talking the room and people into adopting new types of beliefs and weird ways of sacrificing, and it’s happening in their homes, the leading citizens start to notice that it’s spreading everywhere. And that there are just like strange sacrifices happening all over the city, because the people just, they can’t help but think that they’ve done something to upset the gods, and that the only way that they’re going to make it right is if they figure out, you know, what’s the right offering? What’s the right sacrifice? How can I possibly, you know, restore the balance between our people and the gods. So it seems to be getting out of hand, I’m gonna unpack what this all means in a second. Eventually, the angels are put in charge of ensuring that everyone returns to normal, and I’m using my flesh rabbits religious practices, and that they return to only worshipping Roman gods in a Roman way, God dammit.

Dr G 36:25I see. I mean, it makes a lot of sense that things like this would happen. And it is also quite interesting that the Roman response to this would, is not that sort of expansive, inclusive sort of approach that we see much later in Rome, where they, they really do just sort of absorb and embrace and adapt different modes of worship into their own way of doing things. There seems to be like a distinct moment of crisis, in terms of like ritual practice, brought about by environmental crisis.

Dr Rad 37:00Yes, absolutely. And I think we can sympathise with that these days, even though it might not necessarily be an environmental crisis, although it might be. We see people in tough times these days, often, that’s the moment that they find some sort of faith because you know, when push comes to shove, and you’re desperate, you might look for answers in places you haven’t considered before. Now, that’s not to say that the Romans haven’t considered being religious for for all, but they just might be looking in into new gods. Now.

Dr G 37:28Well, certainly if the rituals that they’ve been performing, haven’t done the trick, and the drought is getting worse, then it would be a reasonable thing to assume that maybe there’s something wrong with the ritual practice.

Dr Rad 37:40Yes. So looking at how academics have interpreted what Livy is saying here, because he doesn’t give me any specifics about exactly what kind of practices and that sort of thing, it seems to be assumed that he’s referring to the cult of Apollo. So you might have forgotten, but in 431, they dedicated a temple to Apolo, when we’re suffering from that really terrible plague, it actually been vowed in for 33. But it wasn’t until first 431 that the temple was, you know, up and running. And so it might be something to do with that,

Dr G 38:19Somebody built it wrong. You gotta gotta take that down.

Dr Rad 38:23Well, it might just made it that was like, you know, the new cult on the block. Oh, yeah. So it might be that there is something like that going on. It’s possible. That’s what they’re referring to. And it won’t be the last time that we see this kind of outbreak of extreme. Well, what the room is sore is like more extreme or superstitious practices, like people getting a bit caught up in things, we’re gonna see this again, when we get to the years of like the Second Punic War and that sort of thing. Now that we’ve isolated Yeah, the final weird thing I’m going to note is that we of course, have the seemingly plebeian aediles. Now, it’s not explicit that this is who they are, but possibly, it’s the plebeian aediles who have been put in charge with restoring everything to rights, which might not seem to add up at first, if we think about the kinds of functions that the aediles serve later on in Rome’s history where they’re more concerned with, I suppose, more prosaic matters of life rather than religious beliefs. But for this earlier period, it does seem that there is potentially a connection for them where there is that sort of religious aspects obviously there I mean, all magistrates obviously, it’s not like in the modern day where you have a real separation between politics and religion. Obviously, all magistrates are going to be involved in religious practices somehow, whether it’s the rights they have to carry out or whatever, but But we’ve seen also that it seems like the Aidells were the ones put in charge of the publishing of the 12 Tables, they also possibly were overseeing senatorial records and making sure that they were kept at this point in time. And they therefore might have been seen as valid people to be overseeing how people are observing their religion, I suppose. And that, yeah, they have this sort of religious aspect to their role.

Dr G 40:32Interesting, very interesting. So we’ve had this mention of aediles, we don’t know, we don’t have any names.

Dr Rad 40:41We do not. We didn’t know. And then so this is all speculation, we don’t really know what’s going on here. We don’t have enough detail. And it’s not that they’re trying to wipe out the cult of Apollo. They’re just trying to make sure that it doesn’t get excessive. And there is a balance between what and who the Romans are worshipping.

Dr G 41:01And there’s also the broader question of like, what’s going on with like, the demarcation of responsibility here. So we have had previous years before now where we’ve known who the Pontifex Maximus is, yes. And it doesn’t happen very often in this early period. But they have been mentioned. And we also get this sense, particularly from very early on, definitely pre Republic, that there are a whole bunch of really quite significant priesthoods that are already in existence, such as the fetiales, such as a whole bunch of sort of priests to Jupiter, priests to Mars, the pontificates as a college, augers. And so the idea that it is in this moment, that the responsibility is delegated to the aediles to try and sort out this issue does raise some questions

Dr Rad 42:08It does. And as I say, it’s just a theory. But I think it’s, it does sort of highlight that. We honestly can’t say a lot for certain about a lot of people’s positions at this point in time. It’s not that they are they’re not obviously a pretty straight as you’re saying they’re not a pretty soon, as you say it’s more that something’s been delegated to them, and that they might have been seen as the kind of people that were able to oversee something like this,

Dr G 42:32The idea that this could fall within their remit somehow,

Dr Rad 42:36Potentially, but again, like I think it just sort of even even if this is just a theory, it’s just once again, a reminder that we really know so little about exactly what being a consul this period, you know,

Dr G 42:47well, yes. And I think, I mean, it’s worth noting that often, this has been simplified as well, like when we talk about consuls in this period, we’re not even sure that they’re called ‘consul’.

Dr Rad 42:57Exactly. That’s the question marks and it’s just sort of highlights that if you look up what an aedile does, this would probably not be something that I think they would normally associated with when you get later in Rome’s history.

Dr G 43:10Yeah, and we’re in this period where things nothing is solid. Uncertainty is high. Yes. I think unless you have other details this might be the place to wrap up this episode.

Dr Rad 43:24That is all I have. But I will say that some of the details that I’ve just given you are going to come back in the most major way you have no idea or maybe you do I don’t know if Dionysius is kicked back in or not but the next episode some of these little seeds that are planted they’re going to flower into something horrible.

Dr G 43:42Oh, I can’t wait to find out well and well if you share your story with me I’ll let you know what I discovered.

Dr Rad 43:50All right, Dr. G, that means it is once again time for the Partial Pick

all right, Dr. G, so this is the point where we sum up Well normally the year that was but in this case it’s the three years that we’re and we rate room out of five different categories and in each of those categories, they have the potential to score 10 Golden Eagles Something tells me it’s going to be rough today.

Dr G 44:23Yeah, like in a year where nothing happened well all right, so let’s see how they do the first category is military clout

Dr Rad 44:34Nope that to stick really

Dr G 44:39I couldn’t fight I had the mange

Dr Rad 44:43Yep, so that’s that’s this year. So what’s our next category diplomacy. Okay, well, there’s a little bit of that going on here. We’ve got the truce with the aqueous that’s true

Dr G 44:53and they did negotiate some people out of feed and a get you there get you to Ostia will bring it A pack of robots to replace you. I mean, they could be seen as diplomatic. For the

Dr Rad 45:05Romans. I think that is diplomatic. They didn’t just outright kill them. Not Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So what, like four or five? I mean, it’s not that impressive.

Dr G 45:16Well, I feel like yeah, the diplomacy with feed and a doesn’t count for much. I don’t think that’s maybe a one. But actually coming to it. You truce with the aliens and the volsky. I that actually does sound pretty. Oh, okay. The moleskin is under the bus like that. I retract I retract the A quien treaty. Yeah, true. So I should say so the treaty a truce for eight years? Yeah. Yeah, look, I’m gonna give them about a five.

Dr Rad 45:48Okay, so we’ll give them a five. Alright, so we’ve got five what’s our next category?

Dr G 45:51Expansion? No.

Dr Rad 45:54Fear while I feel

Dr G 45:56it’s hard to expand under these conditions, they’re being pressed from all sides.

Dr Rad 46:00They are and from and internally the cows.

Dr G 46:07Sorry, I was like being pressed internally, I went somewhere else. We’re tourists

Dr Rad 46:14can’t say that I do.

Dr G 46:17That a lot of winters going on. No specific examples come to mind. They’re just they’re doing things but uh, and citizen score.

Dr Rad 46:27Look, for the first few years that we talked about the fact that there’s a lot of peace that nothing is happening.

Dr G 46:33There’s fines being alleviated? I mean, it all sounds pretty good. Really.

Dr Rad 46:37That’s pretty good. It’s just unfortunately, we’ve bundled it together with this hideous route, which makes everyone really suffer and makes them ill. Yeah. So it’s gonna be balanced out. I think maybe maybe like a four

Dr G 46:53points for reduced fines, taking your way points for the mange

Dr Rad 46:58given that we’re not really entirely sure exactly. What that whole fine business involved. It’s all very speculative. I’m

Dr G 47:06assuming it benefits the rich more than it benefits the blue bands. But I could be wrong about that. We have

Dr Rad 47:13talked a lot with the people. So I’m presuming it was actually to their benefit and don’t don’t

Dr G 47:19look for something into things that haven’t been good for them before.

Dr Rad 47:23This is true. But the fact that Libby says the tributes of the collapse were the ones that are originally coming up with it. And then the console stole their idea. And

Dr G 47:32maybe, well, maybe a four then as you say,

Dr Rad 47:37Okay, well that actually you know what, it’s better than I thought although not great when you consider it three years rolled into one cart with a total of nine golden eagles. Dr. G.

Dr G 47:48Wow, Rome, you’ve really excelled?

Dr Rad 47:53Yeah, yeah. Definitely have Hey, you know what, there? It’s definitely better than some of the other years we’ve dealt with in the 40s. I thought that the December it was a bad period, but actually the full 30s have been rough.

Dr G 48:07They have I mean, between like the absence of source material and just like hit after hit to the Roman psyche. It’s been a tough time.

Dr Rad 48:17Well, that’s a G, there’s no one I would rather talk about nothing. We’re

Dr G 48:23gonna take that as a compliment.

Dr Rad 48:25Absolutely. Join us next time for the podcast about nothing. Oh,

Dr G 48:30from the foundation to nothing.

Dr Rad 48:44Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and automated transcripts in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our newest Patreon, Daniel, Nicole, Vincent and Michael. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have merchandise a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book and you can find all the details of that on the highlands press website as well as our website if you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome, our popular history. However, if you are travel short of denari, we would massively appreciate it. If you told someone about the show. That kind of recommendation is worth its weight in gold. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Hey, Dr. G, would you know what to do if a fella started floating in the fire before you?

Dr G 50:29Probably not?

Dr Rad 50:32Well, then have I got the book for you? Did you know that we wrote a book?

Dr G 50:37What we wrote a book? No way.

Dr Rad 50:39I think we wrote a book. Yeah, absolutely. We read a book and it’s called Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome.

Dr G 50:47Oh, that’s right. The details are starting to come back to me now. Yes, yes, the Regal period. What a time for the Romans to be alive. And also what a time for historians to revisit and to consider the source material.

Dr Rad 51:00Absolutely. So if you’re interested in picking up a copy of our popular history of the Roman monarchy, please head over to the highlands press website.

Dr G 51:10That’s Highlands, Dash press.com (

Dr Rad 0:17Welcome to the Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:20we explore all the details of ancient

Dr Rad 0:23ruins. Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:35And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:44Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a brand new episode of the Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. Rad.

Dr G 1:15And I am one of your other hosts Dr. G. Welcome to the show.

Dr Rad 1:21That sounds like there are more to come.

Dr G 1:23And you imagine if we expanded our repertoire and brought other people in as hosts? I don’t know if that the vibe would be the same.

Dr Rad 1:31No, I don’t think each of us could handle that. We’re already too talkative. To two fabulous. Exactly. Yes. So, Dr. G, I’m so glad to see you. Because it’s been too long since we talked about the history over and from the founding of the city. Why it feels like more than 24 hours.

Dr G 1:51I can’t get enough to be honest. And I’m excited to dive in because on the back of where we just wrapped up, which was 431 BCE, and I’m still getting over various mascius being such an incredible dude.

Dr Rad 2:08And then disappearing without a trace. Suspicious. I mean, I think we all know what happened to him, but still,

Dr G 2:16did it involve stepping maybe

Dr Rad 2:19you don’t get to throw a name as fabulous as that out there. Maybe and then not tell me what happened to this man.

Dr G 2:25Look, Livy is letting you down right now. I’m sorry.

Dr Rad 2:29Well, I mean, Dionysius has disappeared. So you know, glass houses, stones?

Dr G 2:35I might not have any sources, but boy, do I have names?

Dr Rad 2:39That’s right. Dr. G, let’s do a quick recap. So we’ve given a bit of a hint there about what happened last episode. But where are we up to in the narrative of rooms history last time we spoke?

Dr G 2:52Look, as far as I can remember, it was a pretty exciting year full of ups and downs, military prowess by the Romans, everybody heading out down south for a bit of a battle at Mount Algidus and just mayhem generally speaking, I believe there was a dictator could be wrong about that.

Dr Rad 3:13There definitely was a dictator.

Dr G 3:15I had lots of like little supplementary sources hinting at various things that happened in this year because it was Tubertus as dictator and he was quite an incredible figure. And he’s made it into the history books, partly on the back of a story that we’re not sure can be fully ascribed to him. It might be apocryphal, that involves the killing of his own son for disobeying orders on the battlefield.

Dr Rad 3:42Yeah, Postumius Tubertus showed his stuff on the battlefield against the aqueous and the Volscians to great acclaim. And then bit sour for us. Not for the Romans killed his own son. Maybe, maybe not.

Dr G 3:57Yeah, yeah, if so: tragic, but also a huge demonstration of Roman virtus, placing the state before anything else.

Dr Rad 4:05Exactly. So basically, we left Rome on a bit of a military high, I suppose you could say last episode. Yeah. They’re excited. Yeah, exactly. Which means it’s a perfect time to transition into another year. So I think we’re heading into 430 BC.

All right, Dr. G, so it’s 430 BCE. Tell me who’s in charge.

Dr G 4:53So it’s a good question. I literally have the names of the consoles and the names of the sensors. And that is almost all I have in terms of source material.

Dr Rad 5:06I kind of fake it. Yeah, I kind of fake it and that’s why I thought I’d let you tell me who the magistrates were

Dr G 5:11That’s very kind of you. So as you know, Dionysus of Halicarnassus is sadly missing in action is becoming more and more fragmentary, and will soon be completely gone. The Fasti Capitolini is also missing for these years. So we’re relying on some fastI records that are kind of like a little bit of a backup system. This means I’m left with source material like Diodorus Siculus, a little reference from Cicero, and a bit of Festus, which has never really been translated into English, so I had to do a bit of a dodge on the Latin. So

Dr Rad 5:48Latin Oh, no.

Dr G 5:50I know I used to be alright at Latin. Now it’s just a little bit tricky, but you know, I gave it a whirl. So our consuls for this year. Lucius, in brackets or Gaius Papirius, son of nobody grandson of nobody, Crassus, consul for the second time, apparently, also consul in 436 BCE.

Dr Rad 6:15Yeah, they’re amazing. Papirius I remember that

Dr G 6:18Papirius Crassus and he’s joined by Lucius. Or Gaius, Julius Vopiscus Iullus . Also a patrician, and was previously military tribune with consular power in 438 for people following the career, like a red hot razor, and was also most famously master of the horse in the previous year to Tubertus himself. So this guy has been elevated from being the master of the horse to the consulship. Fancy, Nancy.

Dr Rad 6:55Nice, nice. Now, I believe you mentioned we have some censors as well.

Dr G 6:59We do. And I mean, things are gonna get a bit weird with the sensors, I think, as I’m sure you’re about to tell me, but we have Lucius Papirius who sounds like he must be related to Lucius Papirius, the consul. I was like, I don’t think this is the same person. But I also can’t be sure Rome…

Dr Rad 7:20I’m not gonna say anything yet. I’m not gonna say any

Dr G 7:22Rome and their names we’ve got two Lucius Papirii, what could be going on. And we also have Publius Pinarius as the co-censor. So the job of the censor is count everything up, basically, check how the population is going, look at the distribution of the wealth and so forth. So I guess we’ll see what happens.

Dr Rad 7:47We will, we will, I mean, their censorship has been an interesting controversy in this past decade. So it’s interesting that we have sensors named again. Now look, I’m not going to not gonna lie. Livy does not have a huge amount of detail for this year. If I’m not alone, I’m going to say yeah, I’m going to say I think this episode might be a low point for Livy as well, and you’ll see why later on. Not as it is not interesting, but just as in in terms of the depth of the information provided, but well, we’ll get to that. Of course, here we are in 430 BC, and what are the tribune of the plebs pushing for but military tributes with consular power? I think you can already know how that wound up given that you’ve given me the magistrates as consuls.

Dr G 8:37Yeah. So they wanted this year to be filled with military treatments with consular power. Is that the idea?

Dr Rad 8:43Yeah, they wanted military ship into the consular power but didn’t get there. It seems to be the way to be honest. They seem to lose more often than they win in this battle. So the previous year, as we mentioned, we had some conflict with the Aequians and the Volscians mentioned and the Romans did pretty well in that scenario. In this year the aqueous erstwhile enemies of room sent envoys to the Romans Senate requesting a treaty the Senate come back yes the Senate come back to the aqueous and say, You know what, why don’t you just flat out surrender and say that were awesome and where the man and nobody can be at room?

Dr G 9:23Fascinating. Okay, so that’s, that’s not really a treaty. That’s just they’re asking Romans like, rather than a treaty, how about you completely submit to us?

Dr Rad 9:32I think that the Romans are doing what I try and do, which is you ask for something that’s more than you want. And then you work your way down.

Dr G 9:41I see. I see a great negotiating strategy from the victor of the battle.

Dr Rad 9:46Yes, exactly. Anyway, it ends up happening that the Aequians secure an eight year truce with Rome.

Dr G 9:54Okay, very specific. We’ll see how that goes. I know

Dr Rad 9:57it is very specific, isn’t it? Eight years like why not just and even 10. Guys, just an x.

Dr G 10:03I mean they use base 10. They, that’s odd. Okay.

Dr Rad 10:07Yeah. Anyway, the Volscians of course, we’re also defeated in this recent military combat that was going on. But internally, they’re now facing division. And to be honest, this I love this because we often find that we end up talking about like, what’s happening in Rome after something big has happened. So it’s kind of nice to get a sneak peek into what apparently is happening for the Volscians. So there are those who want to secure peace with Rome, and those who want to, I think, pursue more war. So they’re kind of arguing amongst themselves, which means Rome is in a very peaceful state, right? There’s not a lot going on.

Dr G 10:49Oh, yeah. Well, if the Volscii Aren’t organised, then they probably still mourning the loss of Messius. Well, I did say I kind of like if we can breed them like that maybe we can take the whole place and make it our own.

Dr Rad 11:01Who knows. So the Romans turned to what they normally do in peaceful times, which is needless bureaucracy.

Dr G 11:09I see the censorship I sense is coming.

Dr Rad 11:12Yes, this is where it is coming in. So Livy mentioned that there was a new law introduced regarding the valuation of fines, which was very popular with the people. Now when it actually happened was that the tribune of the plebs were actually putting this law together, and they knew it would go down well with the people. Unfortunately, one of them got a little bit too chatty, loose lips sink, ships strategy. And so the consuls ended up putting forth a law before the tribunes and they get the credit.

Dr G 11:43Oh, no. Okay, so distributors come up with a great law, only to have it stolen out from underneath them by the consuls. Fascinating.

Dr Rad 11:53Yeah. Now, of course, I had no idea what they were talking about in terms of what this actually involved. I’ve got a little bit of detail on this, I think, okay, I can I can I can say this is where I think Cicero comes in.

Dr G 12:05Yeah. Yeah. So Cicero’s sort of jumps in to the to breach the gap, as it were, of all of our the source material. And, you know, he’s spoiling on about a whole bunch of things like Cicero does. But he’s honing in on this moment of the censorship. And he gets the names, right, generally speaking, and he talks about this transfer of the imposition of fines. So and it’s something to do with lightening the final load for people and figuring out how to measure that so that they can distribute the fines appropriately, but also lower their sort of consequence. In effect, it seems like fines are getting out of control, and nobody’s very happy about it. And their choice seems to be to shift a number of cattle out of private ownership and into public ownership. Now, these are two details. And I do not know how they’re related. How does shifting some cows, from private to public ownership actually alleviate the situation with fines? And I think this is related to how they measure wealth. So how they count up somebody’s assets for the censorship test. If the cows are owned by the people, ‘the public’ as it were, rather than by a certain person individually, then that capital doesn’t count to your asset marker. So you’re looking after some cows, but you don’t technically own the cows.

Dr Rad 13:42Interesting. Yeah. Well, when I was sort of doing a bit of digging into this, the previous law that was replaced by this law was apparently a local the Lex Aternia Tarpeia, which was introduced in 454 BCE, so not that long ago. And it apparently had set up the conversion rate for fine. So one ox was the equivalent of 10 sheep was the equivalent of 100 pounds of bronze or 100 asses – aw yeah. Give me that booty. Apparently, see, we’re not entirely sure what is happening with this new law. But we think that the conversion rate is what has been made more favourable. And probably because there might have been people who wish to pay in money, rather than in things like cattle, I guess. And so kind of might have ended the optional payment. This is just a theory. This is a set in stone. It might have ended the optional payment and it might mean that all fines had to be paid in money from this point onwards.

Dr G 14:51Ah, this might tie in I’m not sure necessarily how, but Festus does suggest In a passage 220, from the Lindsay addition, if anybody’s keen for that, that it was about estimating cattle based on the hundreds within the herd for and then sheep were estimated based on the 10s in the herd. So they came up with a new counting method that allowed them to count less, essentially.

Dr Rad 15:22Right. Okay, gotcha. That’s it. It might be there. Yeah, the conversion rate kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, clearly something is going on. It’s getting mathematical. I don’t care for it. Shall we move on to 429 BCE? Because that is all I have.

Dr G 15:38You want to end this year on the high note of bovine counting and we’ll leave it at that.

Dr Rad 15:43I think I’d like to I’d like to leave the cows behind. Let’s move on.

Dr G 15:51Or as the case may be, all right, well, that wraps up what a year to be in Rome.

Dr Rad 16:21Okay, 429 BCE. Tell me what you got Dr. G.

Dr G 16:24Well, no surprise Dionysius of Halicarnassus is missing.

Dr Rad 16:30I had a hunch. I had a hunch. I’ve learned from history.

Dr G 16:36I think I have even less source material for 429 that I did for 430. Which is kind of a abysmal, because all I’ve got is the consul names. And a little snippet from Diodorus Siculus. Who as we know, tries his best, but is often a little bit confused. So I mean, I’ll take you through it. We have as our consuls, apparently Hostus Lucretius Tricipitinus, so I hate that name. Tri-cip-i-tinus, yeah. And Lucius Sergius Fidenas. And he’s consul for the second time previously consul in 437. And also previously and a little bit more recently, military tribute with consular power in 433. They’re the only magistrates I’ve got names for for this year.

Dr Rad 17:33I don’t have any other magistrates either. So strap yourself in this is what Livy tells me happened in 429. Nothing? Nothing happened.

Dr G 17:45What now?

Dr Rad 17:46Yeah, no, not as in not as in he’s missing like Dionysius, as in, he actually is there. And he just says, Look, nothing happened. So let’s just move straight onto 428.

Dr G 17:56Oh, incredible stuff. Livy. I mean, he loves to talk, I can’t believe we found nothing on this time period at all. Well, that means my source becomes very handy. Diodorus Siculus you back in the mix, buddy. So the thing with Diodorus Siculus. And it’s been going on for a while in his narrative is that there is a about a 10 year discrepancy or more between the things he tells us and when they happened, and how they might line up with when the Roman say that they happened in Rome. So the annalists may be a little bit out in their count, Diodorus might be a little bit out in his count. But the thing that he’s giving us that the Romans aren’t giving us yet is he’s lining things up according to the Athenian dating system, the eponymous Archon in Athens, and generally speaking historians feel pretty confident about those dates. So it’s a bit problematic for all of the Roman writers like Livy to be like, it’s 429 when Diodorus is like it’s 422. We got some missing years somewhere in there something has happened. But the thing that redeems the Roman analysts and where Diodorus then immediately lets himself down as he gets everybody’s names slightly wrong. So

Dr Rad 18:15It doesn’t bode well.

Dr G 18:26No, it’s not great. I feel like he’s probably maybe okay on numbers, but he’s not great on his source material. So there’s a lot going on. He says the consuls for this year are Opiter Lucretius, ‘Opiter’ being a name that we’ve never heard of as a praenomen, so nice try, but probably wrong. And then Lucius Sergius Fideniates which is very close. Yeah, very close. He’s just gotten the last one a little bit a little bit smooshed up.

Dr Rad 19:51Yeah, but I’m not giving him a cigar.

Dr G 19:53Yeah, but maybe you overheard at a dinner party. You know, I feel like that’s the Diodorus Siculus way where it’s like somebody’s saying the names to him when he’s writing them down. He looks at his notes later. And he’s like, What did I even put there? Yes. For the manuscripts.

Dr Rad 20:06Yeah. Look, I agree. Certainly there have been modern academics that have suggested that actually, if we, we probably should shift events around a little bit. And there probably was stuff happening in this year. But just in the version of Livy that we have the way that Livy chose to record things, it seems like a very dull year, indeed.

Dr G 20:28Nothing to report a living well, well, well,

Dr Rad 20:33I think we’re gonna go for a record. That means we’re on tour 428 BCE. Oh, we’re speeding through thing I know, people will think we’ve had a stroke,

Dr G 20:43Dear listeners, calm yourselves. It’s a whole new year again.

Dr Rad 21:10Now, this is a bit of a confusing year, as far as magistrates are concerned.

Dr G 21:14This is very confusing. Yeah. And we’ve got some, there’s a whole bunch of potential issues here. So for instance, one of the things that I was holding on to for a long time, and I think I flagged in many episodes prior to now is that Dionysius of Halicarnassus kicks back in about 428. But I think I was mistaken about that. Having read what is there in the source material, in preparation for this episode, I was like, wait a minute, that doesn’t sound like 428 to me at all. So some minor revisions might have to take place.

Dr Rad 21:56That’s all right, wait, as long as we know that, we’re going to briefly catch a glimpse of him again one day, that’s all we need to know right now.

Dr G 22:03He shall return – not in his full glory – but he’ll be back limping across the finish line in his fragments. So we have two sets of consuls. In this year, as far as I’m aware we’ve got which means we have to divide them up between the consul ordinarii, the ones who named the year and the consul suffectii the ones who sort of fill in, in the back catalogue. But I also have and this is where Broughton, bless his soul is always so helpful. Also knows that there is a special commission in this. Yeah. And there’s a bunch of people involved in the special commission. So we’ve got plenty of names, even if we’re not really quite sure. What is going on.

Dr Rad 22:47I think I can help you with that maybe actually does provide me with some detail this year. So why don’t why don’t you tell me who the magistrates are and then I’ll try and fill in the blanks.

Dr G 22:55All right, this this sounds good to me. It’s a deal. It’s a deal. So our first consul is Aulus Cornelius Cossus.

Dr Rad 23:05Not the most handsome man in the world.

Dr G 23:10You may remember him, dear listeners, for being awesome. In 437, where you may have first encountered him, he was merely a military tribune. But this year, he’s actually a consul.

Dr Rad 23:25Nice.

Dr G 23:26So you know, I mean, I don’t know what he’s been doing for the last 10 years, but I’m gonna assume he’s even more handsome than before.

Dr Rad 23:33Absolutely handsome men don’t need to work hard for political office.

Dr G 23:37I wouldn’t assume so especially when women have the vote. Oh, wait. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus. Another quite familiar name at this point is this is his second bite at the consular cherry previously consul in 431 and also most likely one of the sons with a very famous Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 24:03I weas gonna say he’s not THE Cincinnatus.

Dr G 24:06No. Poenas Cincinnatus is one of the sons of the very famous twice dictator Cincinnatus for those tuning in from Cincinnati and possibly also the younger brother of Lucis Quinctius Cincinnatus who has exactly the same name as the great man himself, so very confusing. So those two are consuls. Then apparently we have another two sets of consuls and that would involve Lucius Quinctius Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 24:39Right.

Dr G 24:39The brother

Dr Rad 24:41Just to makes things even more confusing. Yeah.

Dr G 24:44Two Cincinnatuses consul in the same year.

Dr Rad 24:47Did that make them a Cincinnati?

Dr G 24:49I think it does. I think I think we’ve reached the Cincinnati moment. It’s finally happened and also Aulus Sempronius Atratinus.

Dr Rad 25:01We’ve heard that name before.

Dr G 25:04Yeah, I mean, it sounds vaguely familiar to me. But I haven’t written any notes on that. So I have not done my due diligence with that guy.

Dr Rad 25:10Now, I think I don’t think it’s necessarily the same person. But I do remember that name of Atratinus. And of course, Sempronius. I mean, the Sempronii are going to pop up again and again.

Dr G 25:23They are going to have a long legacy as patrician family.

Dr Rad 25:26Yeah.

Dr G 25:27So that’s our two pairs of consuls. Then we head into our special commission, and I’m excited to learn about what this special commission might be all about. But it involves at least three people. Lucius Sergius Fidenas, who cropped up in the previous year as consul. Quintus Servilius Priscus Fidenas. So, two Fideni in there.

Dr Rad 25:54Yeah.

Dr G 25:54And Mamercus Aemilius Mamercinus, who we also have previously seen was a military tribute with consular power in 438. And also seems to been appointed to investigate the participation of the Fidenates in the raids led by Veii

Dr Rad 26:19Yeah, so that’s what I’m going to fill in a little bit for you. So let’s get to it. Okay, so we’ve got our consuls of Cossus, who, as you mentioned, was our ridiculously good looking tribune who managed to defeat an Etruscan King on the battlefield had the whole spolia opima thing going on for him which nobody, but Romulus had managed to do so what a consul. And then we also have Titus Quinctius Poenas Cincinnatus, as you said, now, what starts to happen under their consulship is that the people of Veii start to make moves on Roman territory. A common tale, we have talked about the fact that this time period as much as it seems to be filled with these awesome Hollywood blockbuster epic battles, really seems to be this constant kneeling of Rome and its neighbours and they’re constantly trying to get each other’s territory and steal each other’s stuff. I mean, honestly, it feels a bit like kindergarten sometimes, Dr. G. Now is also rumoured, as you just mentioned that some of the young men from Fidenae were in on these raids. Okay, we’re taking part. Lest we forget, the Romans aren’t feeling really great about Fidenae right now do you want to remind us why?

Dr G 27:40There seems to be a bit of a problem. So in the history of Fidenae, it starts out as a Roman colony that seems to be it’s how it comes into being. So the Romans always consider it theirs. And it’s actually a really strategic anchor point to the slight north of Rome, because it sits on the same side of the Tiber as Rome. And this means that they’ve got a sort of like a defence in the north, that allows them to sort of feel more at ease about where their enemies might be coming at them from. Problem for Rome is that the Fidemae populace decides that they’re not having anything to do with Rome anymore, and they decide to throw in their lot with the Etruscans, which makes a lot of sense, the Etruscans are really quite close. They are a much more numerous people. And if you were looking at a side by side comparison of who you should ally with at in this time period, you’ve got Rome, a single city, a little outpost, run by a bunch of gangsters, versus the Etruscans, who have centuries of history in the region, and a full 12 member kingship going on, there is a lot of power and a lot of history there. They’re well embedded in their power structures. So it makes sense that a reasonable offer might have been made to Fidenae and they fluttered their eyelashes at they and said, well yes, of course we’d love to join you. And Veii and the Etruscans now have a strategic position to filter into Rome from a side that they are not usually able to approach the city from.

Dr Rad 29:26Strategically important. Absolutely. So obviously, they have a bitter taste in the room, his mouth and I’m going to tolerate these rumours that are going on there like look, it’s one thing for today like we expect it from Veii, but Fidenae after everything we’ve just been through, I don’t know think so. So as you mentioned, a special commission is set up I feel like we need to have some some cry music Don’t Don’t do too. And so we got Lucius Sergius, Quintus Servilius and Mamercus Aemilius according to Livy who are putting in charge of looking into these rumours, and some men could not account for their whereabouts at the time in question. So I’m definitely putting the Law and Order vibes right now.

Dr G 30:12You don’t have an alibi. Why? No, sir. I was sleeping in the field.

Dr Rad 30:17Yeah, they were away from Fidenae. And they but where were they? Who could vouch for their whereabouts? Nobody. That’s who. So they are banished to Ostia.

Dr G 30:26I mean, that’s pretty disappointing that they couldn’t even get a friend to lie for them.

Dr Rad 30:32It would seem to be pretty easy back in this day and age but it’s not like they’re battling you know, CCTV and mobile phones cell tower was pinging all around. Nonetheless, the goats were quiet that day. And nobody could say where they were. They’re banished to Ostia. And I guess Rome is also starting to think about, hmm, what can we do with this whole Fidenae situation? Because clearly, they’re still not really on board with this whole idea of being allied with the most awesome city state in all of Italy. Not that it’s known as Italy right now, but hey. So they decided they’re going to send more settlers and establish what not establish a colony, but reinforce the colony at feed name. And so they take land from the property of people who had died. And they give it to the new colonists. So they’re sort of trying to, you know, set them up.

Dr G 31:27Okay, so they shift some things around like, yeah, it’s an offworld opportunity.

Dr Rad 31:33Some creative accounting.

Dr G 31:34Yeah, it’s gonna be very exciting for you here, take this stuff. Yeah, I think the other thing that might be said for this year is this is the year that Cossus holds the consulship. So for some scholars, and it would make sense to go down this path, this is actually the year where the king of Veii, Lars Tolumnius, is met in battle and is slain directly by Cossus.

Dr Rad 32:03Okay, see, I have that a little bit later in some of the stuff I’ve written. So definitely the fact that he’s consulship. Now is Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 32:11This is yeah, this is one of the candidates is going to pop up. This is going to crop up again.

Dr Rad 32:16And of course, we’ve also got Mamercus Aemilius too. Yeah. also has those connotations. So yes, this is one of the candidates, but I definitely with my Livy narrative, because you know, Livy is my man. I’m going to plump for a bit later on. But anyway, so we’ve got to colony set up at Fidenae. And then of course, it’s been far too peaceful. And Disney-like for too long, Dr. G, a drought hits are really, really bad drought.

Dr G 32:16I see. Okay, I think these things might crop up in a slightly different year for me. So we’ll, we’ll see, we’ll keep going.

Dr Rad 32:54Okay.

Dr G 32:55I’m interested.

Dr Rad 32:55So Livy tells me that it’s not just the fact that it’s not raining very much, which is part of the problem, but also what he calls perennial streams, do not have enough water. So I think that probably means that obviously, where people would normally locate their water, it’s, you know, they don’t usually have any problems from the sources that are drained from from the ground. They’re also drying up.

Dr G 33:19Yeah, yeah. So creeks and small rivers are also dry. Yes, it’s bad time.

Dr Rad 33:25Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, when we don’t have enough water, what happens? People start to die. So basically, the cattle the first today, so they start dying, and you’d find them sort of strewn all around these dried up water sources where they would normally go to get a drink. And they’re also starting to die from mange, which is still a disease that can afflict various animals these days. But basically, it’s some sort of skin condition, which is caused by these parasitic microscopic mites. And what ends up happening is when you’ve got all this drought, people are suffering, cattle are suffering, cattle are dying, cattle are diseased, sure enough, our disease spreads from the cattle to the Roman people. So at first, you start to see people who are living in more rural areas and slaves starting to die, but then also it spreads into the city. And it’s obviously again, I mean, it feels like only yesterday we were talking about a bad sickness in Rome, but it seems like once again, the Romans are really suffering badly.

Dr G 34:28Yeah, I think we would have to assume that if we’re in a situation of this kind of drought, we’re looking at years of consequence, not just a single year, like in order to be in a situation where usual water sources are actually dry. This is an ongoing drought that’s been happening for some time and it’s now getting quite severe.

Dr Rad 34:51Absolutely. Now, the people because they are suffering so badly, they start getting desperate and what In terms foreign superstitions become very popular, and other people in room are starting to take advantage of the situation, presumably to, like make not money like cash, I would presume, but presumably to earn some sort of financial gain or to win influence with people. So some people are pretending to be seers. So sort of taking advantage of that superstitious state desperate state that people are in. And they start talking the room and people into adopting new types of beliefs and weird ways of sacrificing, and it’s happening in their homes, the leading citizens start to notice that it’s spreading everywhere. And that there are just like strange sacrifices happening all over the city, because the people just, they can’t help but think that they’ve done something to upset the gods, and that the only way that they’re going to make it right is if they figure out, you know, what’s the right offering? What’s the right sacrifice? How can I possibly, you know, restore the balance between our people and the gods. So it seems to be getting out of hand, I’m gonna unpack what this all means in a second. Eventually, the angels are put in charge of ensuring that everyone returns to normal, and I’m using my flesh rabbits religious practices, and that they return to only worshipping Roman gods in a Roman way, God dammit.

Dr G 36:25I see. I mean, it makes a lot of sense that things like this would happen. And it is also quite interesting that the Roman response to this would, is not that sort of expansive, inclusive sort of approach that we see much later in Rome, where they, they really do just sort of absorb and embrace and adapt different modes of worship into their own way of doing things. There seems to be like a distinct moment of crisis, in terms of like ritual practice, brought about by environmental crisis.

Dr Rad 37:00Yes, absolutely. And I think we can sympathise with that these days, even though it might not necessarily be an environmental crisis, although it might be. We see people in tough times these days, often, that’s the moment that they find some sort of faith because you know, when push comes to shove, and you’re desperate, you might look for answers in places you haven’t considered before. Now, that’s not to say that the Romans haven’t considered being religious for for all, but they just might be looking in into new gods. Now.

Dr G 37:28Well, certainly if the rituals that they’ve been performing, haven’t done the trick, and the drought is getting worse, then it would be a reasonable thing to assume that maybe there’s something wrong with the ritual practice.

Dr Rad 37:40Yes. So looking at how academics have interpreted what Livy is saying here, because he doesn’t give me any specifics about exactly what kind of practices and that sort of thing, it seems to be assumed that he’s referring to the cult of Apollo. So you might have forgotten, but in 431, they dedicated a temple to Apolo, when we’re suffering from that really terrible plague, it actually been vowed in for 33. But it wasn’t until first 431 that the temple was, you know, up and running. And so it might be something to do with that,

Dr G 38:19Somebody built it wrong. You gotta gotta take that down.

Dr Rad 38:23Well, it might just made it that was like, you know, the new cult on the block. Oh, yeah. So it might be that there is something like that going on. It’s possible. That’s what they’re referring to. And it won’t be the last time that we see this kind of outbreak of extreme. Well, what the room is sore is like more extreme or superstitious practices, like people getting a bit caught up in things, we’re gonna see this again, when we get to the years of like the Second Punic War and that sort of thing. Now that we’ve isolated Yeah, the final weird thing I’m going to note is that we of course, have the seemingly plebeian aediles. Now, it’s not explicit that this is who they are, but possibly, it’s the plebeian aediles who have been put in charge with restoring everything to rights, which might not seem to add up at first, if we think about the kinds of functions that the aediles serve later on in Rome’s history where they’re more concerned with, I suppose, more prosaic matters of life rather than religious beliefs. But for this earlier period, it does seem that there is potentially a connection for them where there is that sort of religious aspects obviously there I mean, all magistrates obviously, it’s not like in the modern day where you have a real separation between politics and religion. Obviously, all magistrates are going to be involved in religious practices somehow, whether it’s the rights they have to carry out or whatever, but But we’ve seen also that it seems like the Aidells were the ones put in charge of the publishing of the 12 Tables, they also possibly were overseeing senatorial records and making sure that they were kept at this point in time. And they therefore might have been seen as valid people to be overseeing how people are observing their religion, I suppose. And that, yeah, they have this sort of religious aspect to their role.

Dr G 40:32Interesting, very interesting. So we’ve had this mention of aediles, we don’t know, we don’t have any names.

Dr Rad 40:41We do not. We didn’t know. And then so this is all speculation, we don’t really know what’s going on here. We don’t have enough detail. And it’s not that they’re trying to wipe out the cult of Apollo. They’re just trying to make sure that it doesn’t get excessive. And there is a balance between what and who the Romans are worshipping.

Dr G 41:01And there’s also the broader question of like, what’s going on with like, the demarcation of responsibility here. So we have had previous years before now where we’ve known who the Pontifex Maximus is, yes. And it doesn’t happen very often in this early period. But they have been mentioned. And we also get this sense, particularly from very early on, definitely pre Republic, that there are a whole bunch of really quite significant priesthoods that are already in existence, such as the fetiales, such as a whole bunch of sort of priests to Jupiter, priests to Mars, the pontificates as a college, augers. And so the idea that it is in this moment, that the responsibility is delegated to the aediles to try and sort out this issue does raise some questions

Dr Rad 42:08It does. And as I say, it’s just a theory. But I think it’s, it does sort of highlight that. We honestly can’t say a lot for certain about a lot of people’s positions at this point in time. It’s not that they are they’re not obviously a pretty straight as you’re saying they’re not a pretty soon, as you say it’s more that something’s been delegated to them, and that they might have been seen as the kind of people that were able to oversee something like this,

Dr G 42:32The idea that this could fall within their remit somehow,

Dr Rad 42:36Potentially, but again, like I think it just sort of even even if this is just a theory, it’s just once again, a reminder that we really know so little about exactly what being a consul this period, you know,

Dr G 42:47well, yes. And I think, I mean, it’s worth noting that often, this has been simplified as well, like when we talk about consuls in this period, we’re not even sure that they’re called ‘consul’.

Dr Rad 42:57Exactly. That’s the question marks and it’s just sort of highlights that if you look up what an aedile does, this would probably not be something that I think they would normally associated with when you get later in Rome’s history.

Dr G 43:10Yeah, and we’re in this period where things nothing is solid. Uncertainty is high. Yes. I think unless you have other details this might be the place to wrap up this episode.

Dr Rad 43:24That is all I have. But I will say that some of the details that I’ve just given you are going to come back in the most major way you have no idea or maybe you do I don’t know if Dionysius is kicked back in or not but the next episode some of these little seeds that are planted they’re going to flower into something horrible.

Dr G 43:42Oh, I can’t wait to find out well and well if you share your story with me I’ll let you know what I discovered.

Dr Rad 43:50All right, Dr. G, that means it is once again time for the Partial Pick

all right, Dr. G, so this is the point where we sum up Well normally the year that was but in this case it’s the three years that we’re and we rate room out of five different categories and in each of those categories, they have the potential to score 10 Golden Eagles Something tells me it’s going to be rough today.

Dr G 44:23Yeah, like in a year where nothing happened well all right, so let’s see how they do the first category is military clout

Dr Rad 44:34Nope that to stick really

Dr G 44:39I couldn’t fight I had the mange

Dr Rad 44:43Yep, so that’s that’s this year. So what’s our next category diplomacy. Okay, well, there’s a little bit of that going on here. We’ve got the truce with the aqueous that’s true

Dr G 44:53and they did negotiate some people out of feed and a get you there get you to Ostia will bring it A pack of robots to replace you. I mean, they could be seen as diplomatic. For the

Dr Rad 45:05Romans. I think that is diplomatic. They didn’t just outright kill them. Not Yeah. Nice. Yeah. So what, like four or five? I mean, it’s not that impressive.

Dr G 45:16Well, I feel like yeah, the diplomacy with feed and a doesn’t count for much. I don’t think that’s maybe a one. But actually coming to it. You truce with the aliens and the volsky. I that actually does sound pretty. Oh, okay. The moleskin is under the bus like that. I retract I retract the A quien treaty. Yeah, true. So I should say so the treaty a truce for eight years? Yeah. Yeah, look, I’m gonna give them about a five.

Dr Rad 45:48Okay, so we’ll give them a five. Alright, so we’ve got five what’s our next category?

Dr G 45:51Expansion? No.

Dr Rad 45:54Fear while I feel

Dr G 45:56it’s hard to expand under these conditions, they’re being pressed from all sides.

Dr Rad 46:00They are and from and internally the cows.

Dr G 46:07Sorry, I was like being pressed internally, I went somewhere else. We’re tourists

Dr Rad 46:14can’t say that I do.

Dr G 46:17That a lot of winters going on. No specific examples come to mind. They’re just they’re doing things but uh, and citizen score.

Dr Rad 46:27Look, for the first few years that we talked about the fact that there’s a lot of peace that nothing is happening.

Dr G 46:33There’s fines being alleviated? I mean, it all sounds pretty good. Really.

Dr Rad 46:37That’s pretty good. It’s just unfortunately, we’ve bundled it together with this hideous route, which makes everyone really suffer and makes them ill. Yeah. So it’s gonna be balanced out. I think maybe maybe like a four

Dr G 46:53points for reduced fines, taking your way points for the mange

Dr Rad 46:58given that we’re not really entirely sure exactly. What that whole fine business involved. It’s all very speculative. I’m

Dr G 47:06assuming it benefits the rich more than it benefits the blue bands. But I could be wrong about that. We have

Dr Rad 47:13talked a lot with the people. So I’m presuming it was actually to their benefit and don’t don’t

Dr G 47:19look for something into things that haven’t been good for them before.

Dr Rad 47:23This is true. But the fact that Libby says the tributes of the collapse were the ones that are originally coming up with it. And then the console stole their idea. And

Dr G 47:32maybe, well, maybe a four then as you say,

Dr Rad 47:37Okay, well that actually you know what, it’s better than I thought although not great when you consider it three years rolled into one cart with a total of nine golden eagles. Dr. G.

Dr G 47:48Wow, Rome, you’ve really excelled?

Dr Rad 47:53Yeah, yeah. Definitely have Hey, you know what, there? It’s definitely better than some of the other years we’ve dealt with in the 40s. I thought that the December it was a bad period, but actually the full 30s have been rough.

Dr G 48:07They have I mean, between like the absence of source material and just like hit after hit to the Roman psyche. It’s been a tough time.

Dr Rad 48:17Well, that’s a G, there’s no one I would rather talk about nothing. We’re

Dr G 48:23gonna take that as a compliment.

Dr Rad 48:25Absolutely. Join us next time for the podcast about nothing. Oh,

Dr G 48:30from the foundation to nothing.

Dr Rad 48:44Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources, sound credits and automated transcripts in our show notes. You too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we’d like to give a special shout out to some of our newest Patreon, Daniel, Nicole, Vincent and Michael. There are other ways that you can support our show. We have merchandise a collaboration with Bridget Clark on Gumroad. And we now also have a book and you can find all the details of that on the highlands press website as well as our website if you’d like to purchase a copy of Rex, the seven kings of Rome, our popular history. However, if you are travel short of denari, we would massively appreciate it. If you told someone about the show. That kind of recommendation is worth its weight in gold. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

Hey, Dr. Chi, would you know what to do if a fella started floating in the fire before you?

Dr G 50:29Probably not?

Dr Rad 50:32Well, then have I got the book for you? Did you know that we wrote a book?

Dr G 50:37What we wrote a book? No way.

Dr Rad 50:39I think we wrote a book. Yeah, absolutely. We read a book and it’s called Rex, that seven kings of Rome.

Dr G 50:47Oh, that’s right. The details are starting to come back to me now. Yes, yes, the Regal period. What a time for the Romans to be alive. And also what a time for historians to revisit and to consider the source material.

Dr Rad 51:00Absolutely. So if you’re interested in picking up a copy of our popular history of the Roman monarchy, please head over to the highlands press website.

Dr G 51:10That’s Highlands, Dash press.com (press.com/highlands-press-bookstore/">https://highlands-press.com/highlands-press-bookstore/)

Dr Rad 51:15It’d be a great way to show your support of the show and to get a great read

Dr Rad 51:15It’d be a great way to show your support of the show and to get a great read

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

It’s around 431 BCE and Rome is busy contending with her neighbours in pretty much every direction. Turns out that it’s not easy trying to establish yourself as an independent state! It might just be time for a dictator. Enter: Aulus Postumius Tubertus.

Episode 133 – Postumius Tubertus, Dictator

Rome is taking the need to put troops on the field seriously with a levy of the citizens held under the conditions of the lex sacrata, which is considered to be the most strict conditions requiring compliance in line with the gods. Who are they scared of? Only the most enduring thorns in their sides, their southern neighbours the Volsicians and the Aequians! It isn’t long before Rome is convinced that they need a dictator to sort out this mess.

Getting to the point of having a dictator in place though is quite another story. In this episode we explore some intriguing details relating to the consuls, the tribunes of the plebs, and the interference of a certain patrician. Beyond them is the actual battle itself, which takes on grand overtones with comparisons made to Homer’s Iliad. This year is also tinged with a sense of tragedy with a story involving the dictator Aulus Postumius Tubertus and his son.

Hold on to your hats, dear listener, this is going to be epic!

Things to tune in for:

• Familiar locations like Mount Algidus
• Some beef between the consuls!
• Intense levies
• Battle plans!
• The heroism of Vettius Messius

Our Book on the Roman Kings

We’ve gone back to where it all began (or so the Romans would say…)

We delve into the history, myth, and complexities of the ancient Roman kings. You can support our work and get a very cool ancient Roman history book in return by pre-ordering press.com/product/rex/">a copy of Rex: The Seven Kings of Rome from the Highlands Press. Due for release in late January 2023.

Highlands Press is an independent publisher supporting historians and we’re excited to be pairing up with an indie producer for our debut book together.

Helmet-of-Montefortino-Type-British-Museum-691x1024.jpg" alt="Bronze helmet of Montefortino type. c. third century BCE. From Puglia. Now held in the British Museum" class="wp-image-4313">

What did early Roman soldiers wear on the field? It’s a good question, while we might assume leather was important protective gear, some elites likely had more sophisticated armour. Above is a bronze helmet of the Montefortino type. Considered to be the oldest type of metal Roman helmet. This example dates from the third century BCE and is now in the British Museum.

Our Players

Consuls

• Titus Quinctius L. f. L. n. Poenus Cincinnatus (Pat)
• Gaius/Gnaeus Iulius – f. – n. Mento (Pat)

Dictator

• Aulus Postumius – f. – n. Tubertus (Pat)

Master of the Horse

• Lucius Iulius (Vopisci f. C. ?n) Iullus (Pat)

Military Legates

• Marcus Fabius (Vibulanus) (Pat)
• Marcus? Geganius (Macerinus) (Pat)
• Spurius Postumius Albus (Regillensis) (Pat)
• Quintus Sulpicius (Camerinus Praetextatus) (Pat)

Other Patricians

• Quintus Servilius Priscus

Pontifex Maximus

• Aulus Cornelius Cossus

Volscians

• Vettius Messius

Our Sources

• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.26-29.
• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.64-65.1; Ovid Fasti 6.723f; Valerius Maximus 2.7.6; Plutarch Cam. 2; Gellius 17.21.17
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press)
• Ogilvie, R. M. 1965. A Commentary on Livy, Books 1-5 (Clarendon Press) 
• Wilson, M. 2021. The Evolution of the Roman Dictatorship (University of Michigan Press)

Sound Effects

Sounds effects in this episode are sourced from BBC, Pixabay, and Pond5. Thanks to the highly talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

1879x1024-1-1024x558.jpg" alt='Painting "Roman soldiers and their general" by vukkostic. The sun breaks through the clouds behind a Roman general on horseback holding up a sword. A line of soldiers hail the general as he rides past.' class="wp-image-4301">

Roman soldiers and their general by vukkostic. This painting imagines a Roman army much more organised and sophisticated than that of the early Republic. Nevertheless, it evokes the spirit of Roman warfare which is very much at play in this episode.

Automated Transcript

We’ve tried to edit this one to help with all the Roman names!

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians.

Dr G 0:20We explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the love affairs, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G 0:34And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G 0:58Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of The Partial Historians. I am one of your hosts, Dr. G. And sitting with me, across the vast distance of cyberspace

Dr Rad 1:13Is Doctor Rad. Hello, everyone. Hello,

Dr G 1:17hello. We’re in for a thrilling time, I think in this episode. So we’re going to be looking at 431 BCE. And you might think to yourself, that doesn’t sound very exciting, just another number. But just us join

Dr Rad 1:33us for this episode as we continue to trace the history of Rome from the founding of the city at the moment, predominantly with Livy by our side.

Dr G 1:44Yeah, look, Dionysus of Halicarnassus, which is the main source that I’ve been reading for a long while now has dropped off the wagon, and will remain missing for a few more years before finally disappearing altogether.

Dr Rad 2:00All right, well, before we get into force, anyone and all the excitement that awaits us strategy, should we do a brief recap to see what was happening in Roman history in our previous episode?

Dr G 2:08Hmm. So in our previous episode, we covered two years, and it was 433 and 432. And realistically, it was mostly about a pestilence and the getting over of said pestilence.

Dr Rad 2:25I think we can all relate to.

Dr G 2:27Yes, yes. touches their heartstrings. That does, indeed, and Rome gets through it, but it seems that there might be rising tensions from their neighbors, people who are seeing Rome’s malaise as an opportunity potentially

Dr Rad 2:44Indeed, you’ve got the fall scans in the aqueous rearing their ugly heads, and they seem to be potentially allying with the Etruscans. More specifically, perhaps the people from they because Rome has had some beef with a in the past decade over territory.

Dr G 3:05Yeah, and Veii is super close to Rome, just a little bit to the north. And so it’s perhaps unsurprising that these two are often at loggerheads with each other. Yes, absolutely.

Dr Rad 3:14So we’ve got that lingering in the background. We’ve got Livy valiantly trying to continue to forge a conflict within Rome itself between the patricians and plebeians In our previous episode. So let’s see how it all plays out shall we in 431 BCE?

Dr G 4:51431 BCE What a time to be alive in ancient Rome. We have consuls this year

Dr Rad 4:59we do in case you have forgotten, it was thought that with potential trouble with external places on the horizon, only consuls would do, because God forbid you have military turbulence with constant power and one of them’s a plebeian and I mean, it’s clearly going to result in a defeat.

Dr G 5:20We can’t take that risk. And Rome doesn’t they put in Titus Quinctius, son of Lucius, grandson of Lucius, Poenus Cincinnatus, who is a patrician and yes, is related to the famous since I was

Dr Rad 5:36gonna say it’s a famous name. It’s a famous name.

Dr G 5:40So famous family and this appears to be one of his son.

Dr Rad 5:43Okay, excellent. And then we’ve got another famous name I believe is our other consul.

Dr G 5:48We do we have a Gaius or a Gnaeus, debate rages Julius Mento

Dr Rad 5:55I’m sorry, did you just offer me a breath mint?

Dr G 5:59I did. It’s delicious.

Dr Rad 6:01What a weird cognomen.

Dr G 6:04Yes, and I’d love to tell you more about it. But I’m out of my rabbit hole of cognomen. Nah, I’m good. I don’t have anything to tell you on that.

Dr Rad 6:13I can actually tell you what it means strategy. Oh, good. It means “long chin”.

Dr G 6:20Oh, goodness. Well, well. What happens when a Mento and a Flaccinator end up in the same room?

Dr Rad 6:29I feel like it is something something very peppermint tea that would happen. Not just to get long chin’s always remind me of peppermint. That’s fantastic. Yes. strong flavors. Definitely.

Dr G 6:40The fresh maker.

Dr Rad 6:41Yes.

Dr G 6:43All right. So I mean, we’ve focused on Mento. But it’s really the Gaius Julius element of the name that perhaps would ring bells for everybody. And it’s not our guy were way too early for him. Yes.

Dr Rad 6:57And it just in terms of the debate raging around his freedom. And so apparently, Gnaeus is not a name commonly used by the Julians, as again. So that’s why I think there is some debate about that first name, whereas Gaius we know is definitely used by them.

Dr G 7:17Definitely, definitely. But as a foreshadowing of the year ahead, I’ve got some other people holding power that are perhaps worthy of note, we do get a dictator in this, as far as I’m aware that

Dr Rad 7:33the 430s is a time for dictators. They are literally flooding us with dictators at the moment.

Dr G 7:40It’s a stunning time to be a dictator. And we have Aulus Postumius Tubertus.

Dr Rad 7:47Mmmm a familiar name again, the Postumii,

Dr G 7:52indeed, I don’t know if we’ve seen this specific guy before, but we’ve definitely seen the family

Dr Rad 7:57just the family. Yeah.

Dr G 7:58And if you have a dictator, you can always bet your sunshine, that you’re also going to have a Master of the Horse. And this is Lucius Iulius Vopisci, or Vopisci, Iullus.

Dr Rad 8:15Oh, okay.

Dr G 8:16Another patrician.

Dr Rad 8:17Is he related? Do you think to one of our consuls?

Dr G 8:22Ahhh I don’t. I don’t know. I mean, they they come from the same gens. So I mean, they must be extended relations of some Yes. But all of the other names don’t really match up. So that suggests they come from different family lines. But this guy we have seen before he was apparently a military tribune with consular power in 438. Okay. Okay. So I don’t remember him. But we’re getting into that period where all Roman names start to sound the same.

Dr Rad 8:50So we’re only now getting to that period? We’re getting to that period?

Dr G 8:55Just now just recently.

Dr Rad 8:56Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough.

Dr G 8:58We have some legates as well. So I think this is an indication usually we don’t find out who the legates are. They are a military or some sort of military commander. So we don’t tend to hear about them. They’re usually around. But something has to sort of be quite narratively significant for the legates to get mentioned by name. And we have a few of them mentioned by name this year. So that gives us a bit of a heads up that there’s something on the horizon. So we have Marcus Fabius Vibulanus, you may have heard of him before military tribute with consular power in 433.

Dr Rad 9:36Ahh Fabulous Fabian

Dr G 9:37Yes. Marcus, we think, Marcus Geganius Macerinus.

Dr Rad 9:44I’ve definitely heard of him before.

Dr G 9:46He was consul in 447, 443 and 437.

Dr Rad 9:51Yes, I remember.

Dr G 9:52Well, lots of lots of consulships under his belt. So this guy comes with a huge sort of pedigree so I like it. You is not as high up in the in the chain of greatness as being a consul but this guy would be highly respected as a military commander under a consul. And then we have Spurius Postumius Albus Regillensis.

Dr Rad 10:14I’ve definitely heard that name before.

Dr G 10:16sounds super familiar because just a couple of years ago, he was also a military tribute with consular power. So we’ve got a whole bunch of legates who have previously held command, essentially. So they’re bringing in the big guns. And that’s not all. I’m turning the page. We have Quintus Sulpicius Camerinus Praetextatus. Who was a consul or military tribute with consular power in 434.

Dr Rad 10:51So he was from the year of chaos as it shall henceforth be called.

Dr G 10:55Yeah, where we don’t know who was who holding what, which position necessarily. It was so bad.

Dr Rad 11:00Exactly. Exactly. All right. Well, I think this is our cast our cast of 1000s.

Dr G 11:06Yeah, and I hope listeners that you’ve been paying careful attention because all of those names uniquely matter.

Dr Rad 11:12Exactly then at all interchangeable. All right, so let me tell you what these guys are getting up to and why there are so many names mentioned specifically in the year 431. So as we know, war is looming. I guess that means I have to go back to my British accent from pre war was on the horizon. zactly it’s not looking good chaps, quickly, we got to hell, the levy god dammit.

Dr G 11:38Roll up, roll up, join the greatest army on earth,

Dr Rad 11:42Your country needs you. Yes, that’s exactly what happened. So a levy is held by the consuls, and it’s held under a lex sacrata, because it’s generally held to be the most effective way of gathering soldiers. Why do you ask? Well, I’ll tell you, because whoever did not obey the call, to enlist, was considered sacer to the gods or forfeit to the gods. So, yeah, this, this ties into the idea that fighting was kind of a religious duty of a Roman citizen, particularly I suppose, at this point in time when Rome does not have a standing army.

Dr G 12:25Yeah, service to the gods. Well, it makes sense in many respects, and we we’ve got a lot of priesthoods that are connected with either being able to read the signs to indicate whether it’s an appropriate time to go to war, you’ve also got the fetiales who go out to ensure that the wars just in the eyes of the gods, there is a lot of sense in which Rome doesn’t engage in any military action unless they really certain that things are looking appropriate through a divine perspective. So you certainly don’t want men in your ranks who are not approved from divine sanction.

Dr Rad 13:02Indeed, exactly. So what’s going to happen is that the aid grants and the moleskin say, certainly postponed for a war for a year, but they’re very punctual. And that year rolls around because they are getting ready. They have put forward very strong armies from both of their locales, they have met up at Mount Algidum, or Algidus, which we have mentioned several times as a point of conflict, it’s just seems to be the place where battles happened. But they have set up separate camps. So they’re not in they’re close to each other. But they’re not entirely in the one camp that will become important later on, which is why I’m specifically mentioning it now. And then they start to drill them in hard. So it’s Train, train, train. The Romans presumably can see this and appreciate it because it makes them more concerned about the situation according to Liddy, so concerned that it’s time for dictator.

Dr G 14:02Oh, wow. That just happened also quickly, they’re like, I saw them training over there. And I’m now really quite concerned and a console is not going to be enough for this situation.

Dr Rad 14:13I really feel like if I were to characterize room in the 430s, at least as it’s coming through in the sauces, it’s that once they pop that cherry with one dictator, they can’t help but keep going forward again. And again. It’s just like, you know, it’s kind of a bad habit. Really, it’s a reflex.

Dr G 14:32Well, this is interesting, actually, because I’ve just started reading Wilson’s book on the evolution of the dictator. And part of the argument that he is setting up is to assert that the dictator has always been a feature of the Roman Republic. And is indeed, you know, it comes into being with the Republic itself very early on in the piece. And so, in a way in this early period is part of the way that Romans do business. If They see a situation where they’re like, no, no, we need one person in charge for this, even if it’s just for a limited time, they have that position in reserve, knowing that they could use it at any time. So that it’s this kind of part of the way that they may be their business as usual practice in this early period of the Republic, because we’re certainly entering in this phase where we’re seeing a lot of them. And we’re going to continue to see a lot of them for quite some time.

Dr Rad 15:29Oh, yeah. And look I suppose it’s a bit like if you’re in a plane, and the plane starts to get into trouble, you’re not going to be like, wait, wait, let’s see how this plays out. You’re going to pull the parachute Goddamnit, get the hell out of there. So I understand the instinct. But it does seem like in the 430s, they’re particularly prone to calling on a dictator. I guess, it ties into this bigger picture that we’ve often talked about that Rome is not in its best way at this point in time. It’s not it’s not his best self, in this time and the Republic?

Dr G 16:01No, and it’s really I think, part of what we’re learning through this process of the 430s. And even the previous decade, and potentially, the decades to come, I haven’t read that far ahead, I’m trying to keep it fresh for myself, is that Rome is really trying to establish itself. And it’s a consolidation period. And this means conflicts because they need to figure out where they sit in the pecking order of Central Italy. And it’s just going around in circles.

Dr Rad 16:30I think that’s definitely what we can see. Now, interestingly, in the future, of course, it’d be the Senate that always gets the power to decide when is room officially in a state of emergency at this point in time, although the Senate are the people that are like, you know, what, I think we need a dictator, they’re training awfully hard. It’s not like they’re official right at this point in time as it would kind of become their their business, if you like, in a few centuries time. Now, it might seem a little bit odd that the Romans are so nervous at this point in time, because of course, they have trounced the Aequians and the Volscians countless times in the past. I mean, I actually honestly could not tell you how many times we have related a story where the Aequians and the Volsicans have been defeated by Rome.

Dr G 17:21And look at some of them have been at Mount Algidum as well now to guide us, which is this spot in the Alban hills to the south east of Rome, which is traditionally linked to Aequian territory. So it’s, it’s not like this hasn’t, it feels like we’re a bit on a repeat. We’re like a DJ doing. And it’s like, here we are, again, guys. It’s ah Mount Algidus. And who knows what’s gonna happen here, but probably Rome.

Dr Rad 17:49Exactly. Well, the reason why they’re a little bit more nervous than usual, perhaps in spite of their amazing track record, is that not only do those Aequians and Volscians seems to be training very hard. I don’t know what that means. But they they’re doing the whole

Dr G 18:05I hope this means that they have their shirts off.

I think it does. I think they’re doing the pumping iron montage, you know, it’s all looking pretty scary

Too to doo. Too to doo.

Dr Rad 18:15Exactly. And “Eye of the Tiger” is playing, you know, they’re running up and down stairs, it’s not good. Anyway, on top of that, though, of course, we have to remember what Rome has just emerged from which is a pretty serious plague. A lot of young Roman men have died during his time. So I guess we’re in feels like it’s not at full strength.

Dr G 18:34And the ones that are left with them, they got like little chicken legs that like I haven’t been able to get back to leg day. I don’t know what to tell you not feeling confident going into this.

Dr Rad 18:42These thighs are not intimidating enough. But this is my favorite detail. And I am so excited to share this with you. The little cherry on top of why the Romans are a bit more nervous than usual. Why they call on a dictator is that the consuls do not get on at all.

Dr G 19:04Oh, they voted these two guys in and they’re like these guys are like nup can’t stand him

Dr Rad 19:09Yeah,

Dr G 19:09The man’s a jerk

Dr Rad 19:10They’re like the odd couple, but without the sweet, sentimental moments where actually they do care about each other.

Dr G 19:17Okay, so they don’t get along and it seems like they’re gonna be unable to come to any unified decision if it comes to war.

Dr Rad 19:23Exactly now this is another little intriguing detail that let me throw this out there. He reports that some writers have recorded that the consuls actually went to war and fought a battle at Mount Algidus and were defeated, hence the dictator being appointed. But that’s all he’ll give me. So I’m using my flesh rabbits. Some writers who the who?

Dr G 19:47It sounds pretty awkward for the consuls, though. Like they tried to get their shit together even though they didn’t like each other and it really didn’t work out. Now everyone’s like, you know what? Just go well,

Dr Rad 19:59there is one thing that they agree upon one thing and that is no dictator, no dictator, dictator, when it cancels, we want to be in charge.

Dr G 20:12This is going to be a real slap in the face. I think for Cincinnatus son of the legendary Cincinnatus, twice dictator.

Dr Rad 20:19Exactly, exactly. And so we’re like, yeah, they’re resisting the constants are like no no no dictator. We don’t want a dictator no stop talking to a Senate. We don’t want to hear it right now. But the information about the Aequians and the Volscians and their forces is just getting more and more concerning. Rome is getting increasingly worried the council’s are still not listening to the advice of the Senate.

Dr G 20:43The reporters on the ground at Mount Algidus are drawing sketches of how well muscled the enemy is and sending those sketches back to Rome and people are getting increasingly concerned being like, those guys are developing muscle at a rate I’ve never seen before. They’re getting bigger day by day, we have to do something before they explode.

Dr Rad 21:01Exactly, if we don’t go to battle, they’re training will mean that they are so much better than they need to be. They’re gonna be unstoppable. Exactly. So at this point in time, one Quintus Servilius Priscus, who was a very respected elite Roman man for the previous positions that he had held within the state appeals to none other than the tribune of the plebs. Yeah, that’s right, a patrician turning to the tribune of the plebs, desperate times in deed. He says, You guys are annoying. Can you please be annoying right now and use your authority to force the consuls to name a dictator?

Dr G 21:46Wow.

Dr Rad 21:47Yeah.

Dr G 21:48That’s fascinating.

Dr Rad 21:49I know. Now the tribunes of course say, hey, people need us we’re wanted. They like me. They like me. And they see this as a golden opportunity to increase their own power, because the tribute is the worst. So they start chatting amongst themselves being like, conspire, conspire, because how are we going to use this to our advantage? They then declare that the tribunes all think that the consoles should obey the Senate, and that if they keep resisting, they should be thrown in prison. Oh, that’ll teach them. Yeah, absolutely. The consuls, understandably, are outraged that the tributes have been used against them. They’re like that is no bigger slap in the face. Than you guys turning to our arch nemesis, the tribune of the plebs.

Dr G 22:46Like this is insulting. And I also do not want to go to jail.

Dr Rad 22:50Well, perhaps they have a point in the sense that they’re like, if you actually allow this to happen, like allow the consuls to be thrown in prison for not doing what they’re told by other people like the tribune of the plebs, then you are just undermining the authority of the office. Now. I do hate the patricians, but they do have a point about a dangerous precedent, because we know that the Romans are all about precedent.

Dr G 23:19Yes, this is really interesting, actually, because this is going to feed into the one story that I have for this year, which doesn’t come until much later.

Dr Rad 23:27Okay. Anyway, so it’s finally decided by a lot. I mean, after that objection is noted. They’re like, great, whatever. They decide by a lot that Titus Quintus as in Cincinnatus. 3.0, is going to be the one who’s going to be allowed to pick the dictator. And so he turns to Aulus Postumius Tubertus, who was his father-in-law, who was very well respected and very strict, apparently

Dr G 23:55has a bit of a reputation.

Dr Rad 23:57And he of course, then chooses Lucius Iulius as his Master of the Horse, as you said earlier.

Dr G 23:57Hmm.

Dr Rad 24:05Now, I’m just going to flag here. There have been questions raised about the legitimacy and timing of this dictatorship. did happen in this year? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe it was a year earlier. Maybe it was invented.

Dr G 24:19This is a chaotic time for the chronology. There is no doubt about that. So it wouldn’t surprise me that everything that we’re sort of talking about that we’re assigning to particularly years could be anywhere between a particular decade to be honest.

Dr Rad 24:33I think this stuff happened. But yes, I can see that the timing might be the issue.

Dr G 24:39I think this story about Tubertus certainly has some legs and there is some lingering sort of aftermath of this, of this whole situation. So even if it’s not in this year, I’m just going to foreshadow that. It seems like people across the board believe that it happened.

Dr Rad 25:00I agree, I agree Anywho. So a levy is declared. And this is a serious levy. This is not just like your regular levy. This is one where all legal business is stopped in the city because everyone should be doing their bit to get ready for war. In fact, it’s so serious that men who might normally be able to claim some sort of exemption from military service, for whatever reason, are told we don’t have time to deal with your cases, buddy. You’re just gonna have to put your name down and turn up on the day. If you don’t, you’re going to be treated like a deserter.

Dr G 25:40What about my tennis elbow?

Dr Rad 25:42Too bad!

Dr G 25:43I can’t possibly swing a sword.

Dr Rad 25:45Too much time on the courts, pal. Get your arse in line. Yes. So basically, because this is like a state of emergency. No cases of exception are going to be considered not even like after everything’s said and done. It’s not like you can turn up with your little medical note and be like, I know I didn’t turn up but my doctor did say that I can’t have balls fly at my face. You know, that kind of thing. Yeah. Now they also they also enroll people from the her nations and the Latins. Their ally

Dr G 26:17Classic allies

Dr Rad 26:18Classic allies exactly. Now they then kind of divide and conquer. So Gnaeus Julius, the consul, and Lucius Iulius, the Master of the Horse are both assigned to Rome. So that makes sense, but the constants up if they don’t get along. Now, this is supposed to ensure that if there are any sudden issues that arise, they’ll be able to be handled by these two guys who are being left in charge. And their main priority is obviously to make sure that the needs of the army are being met, and that the city are supporting that goal. So far, so good, all makes sense. Now, at this point in time, our dictator promises that there will be games glorious games, if Rome wins, and he is basically repeating a promise apparently made by the Pontifex Maximus at the time, one Aulus Cornelius Cossus perhaps? Yeah, he said there would be great games if everyone was victorious. So we’re all on board with the whole let’s, let’s celebrate if we win. Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Now, the dictator Postumius, he splits his army up with a consul that he’s been paired with, who is – I don’t really know what to call him – I don’t want to call him Cincinnatus. I guess Quintus. I’ll call him Quintus

Dr G 27:37You could call him Poenus, because that’s one of his names and it doesn’t come up. It hasn’t come up very much so far.

Dr Rad 27:44No, it’s actually an odd name “sideways”. It has something to do with some connection with Carthage or being a Carthaginian or something like that.

Dr G 27:52Yeah. So I mean, maybe call in Poenus Cincinnatus.

Dr Rad 27:56Okay. Poenus Cincinnatus, so they’ve divided up the army, and they’re going out to deal with the Aequians and the Volsicians. Now, the Romans had noticed the way that the Aequians and Volsicians were kept separately, but close together, so they do the same thing. So you’ve got Postumius with his own camp, and Quinctius Poenus with his own camp. Now the locations that levy gives me apparently do not make sense. I haven’t set this up. Personally, I am using Ogilvie an academic who apparently knows a bit more than I do about geography. So Livy says that the stimulus was closer to Tusculum. And that Quinctius Poenus was nearer to Lanuvium. However, apparently, Lanuvium is separated by the Alban Hills from Tusculum. And therefore not really near the site of battle. So don’t really know what that means. Yeah, that’s fine. It’s all relative. Who knows what this means?

Dr G 28:53I think this requires us to take a trip to Rome in order to investigate the geography for ourselves.

Dr Rad 28:59Absolutely, Patrons, get on it. We need to sort out this geography. Once the Roman camps are set up. Small scale skirmishes begin between the Romans and the Aeuqian and Volscian forces and Postumius is like, Yeah, and you know what, why not? Why not skirmish away. Go ahead, indulge yourself, knock yourself out. You know what, maybe this is the way that we’re going to just win the war. So he’s just like, Yep, this is how we’re going to do it. Just like low level, low pressure engagements at slow and steady. Yeah. And it does seem to have that kind of effects because eventually the Aequians and the Volscians become increasingly desperate, so much so that they decide to hatch an evil plan. They’re going to ambush the consul’s camp in the nighttime.

Da-da-daaaa!

Exactly. Unfortunately for them, the alarm is raised before they do that much damage.

Dr G 29:59If it’s like a classic comedic situation being like, you know what we’ll do, we’ll do this. Oh no, the alarm system!

Dr Rad 30:06Exactly like they’ve, you know, they’ve made some headway but not much. So Quinctius Poenus he springs into action. He immediately is like, Well, more guards, more security quickly, schnell schnell. And so everybody springs into action. And of course, our dictator Postumius immediately sends over reinforcements to help out his colleague in arms, and they are put under the command of a lieutenant Spurius Postumius Albus, our old friend.

Dr G 30:38Oh.

Dr Rad 30:39So Postumius and part of his army, they now move themselves to a location where they can’t be seen during the battle that is going on. So this way, I think they’re setting themselves up obviously for like an ambush of the enemy at an opportune moment. Sneaky.

Dr G 30:58Where did those guys go? I don’t know. That has gone.

Dr Rad 31:01Yeah, exactly. Now, of course, since he’s no longer present in the camp that he had set up, he has to leave behind a lieutenant in charge, and this is Quintus Sulpicius. So that’s one of our other lieutenants. Now he’s out another lieutenant, we’re taking them off becomes another one, because another one Marcus Fabius, our fabulous Fabian, another lieutenant, he is placed in charge of the cavalry. But no, he is ordered to wait until daybreak to do anything, because it’s way too hard to use your cavalry in the nighttime.

Dr G 31:39Yeah, do not charge the horses in the dark. Yeah, it will go wrong.

Dr Rad 31:43So Postumius is obviously justifying the choice of himself as dictator, because he’s just doing everything right. He then decides he’s going to actually attack the enemy camp, because of course, they have depleted the forces in their camp in order to attack the Roman camp of the consular. Clever. Yeah. So once again, I’ve got another Lieutenant for you, Marcus Gaganius. And some of the cohorts are sent to ambush the camp. And again, yes, finds that the people at the camp were completely fixated on like, what was happening with the attack on the consul’s camp, so they’re sitting there eating popcorn, they’ve got their 3D glasses on. They weren’t really paying attention to security of their own campsite. So when he attacks, he seems to take it pretty easily, and is therefore able to send up a smoke signal that he had pre arranged with Postumius to be like, job done. Tick, tick.

Dr G 32:40Nice. Yeah.

Dr Rad 32:41So Postumius

Dr G 32:42So far, so smooth.

Dr Rad 32:43Yeah. So Postumius sends out word to everybody. It’s all good. Everybody the camps been captured. We’re making great progress here. And then daybreak, which means enter the cavalry. And…

Dr G 32:56I was gonna say, the charge of the horse.

Dr Rad 32:58Exactly, exactly. And also, our friend Quinctius Poenus, he now feels that he can properly engage with the enemy. I think he feels that things have definitely turned in their favor. Daybreak. It’s a bit easier, obviously, you know, to deal with the situation. And plus dubious of course, is going to ambush the enemy from behind. So it’s looking pretty grim for the aqueous and the vowel skins. I mean, they seem to be trapped from a lot of different directions.

Dr G 33:27I was gonna say this is more than a pincer movement. They’ve got them surrounded.

Dr Rad 33:31However, it’s time for a hero, Dr. G.

Dr G 33:34A what?

Dr Rad 33:35A hero!

Dr G 33:36We don’t we don’t have one already?

Dr Rad 33:38No, a hero on the other side.

Dr G 33:40Oh,

Dr Rad 33:41Yeah. So one Volscian called Vettius Messius.

Dr G 33:47Vettius Messius? Amazing. I love this guy already.

Dr Rad 33:51I know. So Ogilvie has suggested that he is crafted very much in the form of a Homeric hero. And so he steps in. He’s not maybe it’s because he’s so well. He’s been doing a lot of training. Anyway, so he steps in. He’s not a super elite guy. He’s not from the most powerful volsky and family you’ve ever heard of, but he has earned respect from his people. Through his many impressive deeds, which live he does not take the time to tell me about dammit, yeah. But he is the one that starts rallying the Aequians and the Volscians. He’s like, Come on, guys. We can’t give in. I know things will desperate. But this is not the time to surrender we have to fight on. Now. Whilst he might be a bit of a Homeric hero type character that’s stepping into our story here. Ogilvie thinks that he is a genuine person, or at least like there’s some basis for him in reality, because messiness is apparently an Oscan name.

Dr G 34:59Hmm.

Dr Rad 35:01Yeah, it’s like a it’s like related to the name Mettius, which we’ve seen before, like Mettius Fufetius, another favorite name of ours from our past episode. And you can apparently find the name Vettius in Etruria and also Sabine country.

Dr G 35:20Oh, interesting. Okay, so he’s got a name that’s not doesn’t sit in within the sort of like the Roman history of names. It sits in that surrounding area of Italy. So, you know, if they’ve made him up, at least they got the detail right about where his name might have come.

Dr Rad 35:38Exactly. So the fight against the Romans is now renewed because they have their hero standing up for them.

Dr G 35:47I need a hero.

Dr Rad 35:48Yes, exactly. So they start attacking the Romans who are under our friend, I’m just gonna call him Albus. The other Postumius, because otherwise, it’s way too confusing. So our friend Albus is being attacked and the Romans are actually being driven back such is there further in this fight. But this is when the dictator Postumius’ men show up and there’s really fierce fighting happening. The Romans are determined, but Messius is there, and they’re just as determined it’s up. It’s crazy. Dr. G, so many people get hurt, so many people die. This is the mark of a great battle. And Roman leaders even get hurt. So it would seem

Dr G 36:34Oh, that’s rare.

Dr Rad 36:36So it would seem that our lieutenant Postumius Albus is the only one who is sort of taken for the battle because his head has been badly injured by a stone.

Dr G 36:48Oh, no. Alright.

Dr Rad 36:50The dictator, Postumius, he’s fighting on but he’s received a pretty serious shoulder injury, and Fabius – and I don’t really understand how this works, and to be honest, I don’t want to have it explained to me – Fabius apparently his thigh. He’s somehow been injured in a way that’s pinning him to his horse.

Dr G 37:11Oh.

Dr Rad 37:12Yeah.

Dr G 37:12Oh, that’s not good.

Dr Rad 37:14I don’t I’m

Dr G 37:15Not good for him and not good for the horse.

Dr Rad 37:16I’m kind of hoping that means the horse gently fell over. But I don’t think that’s the case. And Quinctius Poenus has sustained a serious injury is one of his arms. I actually think that Livy means that he’s lost one of his arms.

Dr G 37:33Well, that is pretty serious.

Dr Rad 37:35Now, apparently, this is an this whole episode bears an uncanny resemblance to some of the happenings of the Iliad.

Dr G 37:45Hmm.

Dr Rad 37:46So I’m once again going to cite Ogilvie who’s highlighted that the injury sustained in the arm by Quinctius Poenus is very much like one sustained by Agamemnon, whereas the injury sustained by Fabius with the whole leg thing and being pinned, that is like Diomedes, and Iulius’ damaged side and shoulder is also very similar to the other mentioned, we have to the the shoulder injury, and Hector was the one that got hit in the head with a stone and taken from the battlefield in this particular battle.

Dr G 38:27Now, I don’t want to ruin this theory, because obviously, Ogilvie is an excellent scholar and bless his soul. He was with us for too short a time. But when you’re in an ancient battle, and you’re on the battlefield, and you’ve got your ancient weapons, and you’ve got your horses, and you’ve got your rocks, how similar over time, are the injuries likely to be?

Dr Rad 38:53I hear what you’re saying, I just thought I’m gonna flag it because it does seem like a very strange coincidence. So we’ve got all these elite men on the battlefield. And the injuries that they sustained are very much like this particular battle in the Iliad.

Dr G 39:10Yeah, I hear you. I hear you. I’m just gonna I’m gonna maintain my my small dose of skepticism.

Dr Rad 39:17Oh, sure. Yeah, for sure. I totally get where you’re coming from. But yeah, it’s just one of those things where it’s like,

Dr G 39:22Is Livy trying to tell us that this battle is equivalent to the Iliad?

Dr Rad 39:30No, I don’t see I think that Livy has a tendency to make these Republican battles much more epic than they actually were. I see. I think that’s definitely the case. Anywho So, Mercy is keeping up the fainting along with his band of courageous use of the vault scans. They end up trampling over the carcasses of slain Romans in their battle to make it back back to the Volscian camp. Because the Romans had seemingly captured the Aequian camp previously. Of course, they are pursued by the Romans. So they are followed by the dictator and the other Roman forces were another fierce and full on battle ensues at the camp itself. And it’s apparently at this moment that Quinctius Poenus throws his standard into the stockade of the camp, encouraging the Romans to go and fetch, go get it, boy.

Dr G 40:32The Romans love that kind of thing. We’ve seen some examples of this before where it’s like, you know, there’s nothing quite like holding on to the standard. And I know that Livy will be all across those kinds of narratives as well due to later moments in history.

Dr Rad 40:46Exactly. And finally, this is apparently what enables them to break into the camp from one direction. And then from another direction, you’ve got the Romans making headway under the dictator. And this is where the Volscians just give up. They throw aside their weapons and they’re like, you win, we surrender. We give up.

Dr G 41:04Oh, no, this is a bad time. It’s like so they’re surrounded. And they, they give up.

Dr Rad 41:09They do. So the camp is taken. Sadly, the men who are captured are sold into slavery, although Livy has an intriguing detail that senators were not sold into slavery.

Dr G 41:13Hmm. Okay, all right. All right. But what do we know about Messius, then? Is he sold into slavery? Is he a senator of…

Dr Rad 41:36Alas, I do not know, Dr. G. His fate is lost to history.

Dr G 41:40It’s a very mess-ius affair all round.

Dr Rad 41:42It is Indeed. So the Romans capture a lot of booty because they’ve taken these two camps. They give a portion to their allies, the Latins and the Hernicians. Mostly stuff that seemingly was taken from them in the first place. But I guess it’s the thought that counts.

Dr G 41:59Here, have this back.

Dr Rad 42:00Yeah, the rest is sold at auction by Postumius. Postumius then leaves Quinctius Poenus is in charge of the camp. And he goes back to Rome to do the right thing because of course, he is an all around awesome guy and lay down his power as a dictator. Now that mission accomplished.

Dr G 42:20I’ve done that thing, and I no longer need to be the supreme leader of all of Rome.

Dr Rad 42:26Exactly. Now, there is a weird little postscript to this whole affair, which is that there is a possibility that Aulus Postumius, our dictator’s son, had been a part of this conflict.

Dr G 42:41Oh, oh, I have a story on this. I will jump in. And then potentially you’ll just correct me anyway, because my story myself, I don’t have many sources. But the sources that I do have suggests something really quite interesting. So this is coming from Valerius Maximus sort of compiles lots of interesting tidbits of the past. And he talks about Postumius Tubertus, this dictator – really particular name, so he stands out in any material he appears in – as being like one of the great dictators, and really sort of amps up this guy. And I will read out the quote, I think, because it is there’s a lot of flourish here, which I think is worth noting. “So there I too Postumius Tubertus and Manlius Torquatus (another guy that comes up later in history) strictest guardians of war-like concerns. I feel hesitation as I include you in memorial narratives, because I perceive that overwhelmed by the weight of the glory you have deserved, I shall reveal the insufficiency of my abilities, rather than present your virtue in its proper light.” So he’s kind of like, I don’t think I can tell this story and do it justice: this is how great you are. “For you, dictator Postumius, you had a son, Aulus Postumius, whom you had been gotten to propagate the succession of your line, and innermost rights, whose infant blandishments you had fostered in your bosom with kisses, taught him letters as a boy, arms as a young man, blameless, brave, loving you as he loved his country. But because he went forth from his post, and routed the enemy of his own motion, and not by your bidding, you ordered the victor, to be beheaded. And your fortitude availed to the using of your parental voice, for the execution of this command. For I am well assured that your eyes overspread with darkness and broader stay, could not look upon them. might work of your spirit.” So like we’ve got this story where it’s like, his son is part of the command structure somehow in this battle, and we don’t have him listed anywhere in the official records, but apparently sees an opportunity, takes the initiative as a commander. And because he wasn’t given the direct order, by the dictator, his father, he shouldn’t have executed he shouldn’t have gone forward with with moving into the battle. And because he comes back victorious, maybe the son thinks, you know, all will be forgiven, you know, all they did was see an opportunity and go for it. And isn’t that you know, the mark of virtus of a Roman military commander? And the answer to that is: very much not. Everything is about the structure of command, and the structure of command must be preserved at all times. And it becomes the duty of the dictator, to then perform the order to execute his own son. Horrifying.

Just like Brutus, eh!

Well, I feel like this is kind of the moment where we can see how, at the end of the Regal period where we have that situation with Lucretia upholding what is this sort of ideal feminine virtue within the constructs of patriarchy, and the toxicity of that moment, we can see the same sort of toxic element of Roman patriarchy now playing out and how it works for the men. Because this is a moment where a military commander, having won the day his son has contributed to that, but because it hasn’t happened in the right sequence, he has to perform this execution. And it’s a tragedy all around.

Dr Rad 46:54Absolutely. So that’s pretty much the story that I get as well that Postumius who obviously has this connection, this family connection to the great Postumius who had helped to secure that victory at Regillus. You’ve also got obviously other Postumii involved in the battle. But yes, in this moment of triumph, he has to come home and execute his son by having him beheaded, because he left his post when he was specifically ordered not to. The only detail that I can add on is that Livy does not believe that this is the case. Now, I love his reasoning for it. And okay, yes, this isn’t this is the translator talking but I think it captures – I’m gonna run with it. He says that no one wants to believe this story. And the diversity of opinion allows one to reject it.

Dr G 47:49Is this Livy, not naming his sources again?

Dr Rad 47:52It is. But I just love the idea that look, everybody has an opinion about this story. And we all think Postumius, is an amazing guy, and nobody wants to believe he would execute his own son. So let’s just say didn’t happen.

Dr G 48:04I don’t want to believe.

Dr Rad 48:06Yeah, one of the reasons that he cites is that there is a similar story, as you’ve alluded to, which we’ll come to again later on with a guy called Titus Manlius. So Titus Manlius, his his son had also defied his father’s orders and entered into a fight when he wasn’t supposed to. And even though he won the fight, his dad felt it was necessary to assert the authority of a console and therefore had him bound to a stake and his head cut off. And this therefore gave rise to a particular saying about Manlian discipline. Now, Livy thinks that, I guess because this happened later, perhaps, that it would make any sense for them to have the saying of Manlian discipline, if Postumius was the one who did it first. And also Manlius was known to be so strict that he was given the surname, Imperiosus, Imperiosus, or “The Despotic” and Postumius wasn’t given anything like that. So even though he was known to be, like, strict and stern, as a Roman man was supposed to be, particularly he’s in a position of authority. Maybe he didn’t go quite that far.

Dr G 49:20Yeah, it’s I wonder, then when where the story kind of derives from and wonder if maybe what we’re getting here is – and this is just pure speculation, there’s no way to prove this one way or the other – whether this is part of a family story of the Postumii that is told amongst themselves in order to explain the death of a young man somewhere in their line. And that somehow that’s worked its way into sort of a greater imagination at some point, but maybe doesn’t make it into all of the records.

Dr Rad 49:54There’s definitely confusion about it. And so I wouldn’t be surprised as you say, if this is some sort of family lore or oral history or something like that.

Dr G 50:02Well, all I can say is that Valerius Maximus clearly leans into the narrative and gets super emotional in his recap of it. So definitely one of the people that’s sort of sitting on the opposite side of the fence to Livy on this one.

Dr Rad 50:19Although I think they do share in common their admiration for Postumius, this particular Postumius amongst other Postumiuses. So I do have a tiny little bit of detail to finish off the year, which is hilariously anticlimactic, but I’m gonna throw it at you anyway. So now that all this is all wrapped up, Gnaeus Julius comes back. And he makes the official dedication to the Temple of Apollo, which had been promised to the god back in 433, allegedly, when there was that year of really bad plague. Now, he did not wait for his colleague Quinctius Poenus, to come back for them to draw lots about who had the right to do the dedication, because Quinctius, of course, is still out minding the camp that was left behind by the dictator.

Dr G 51:10These two really don’t get along, do they?

Dr Rad 51:12Oh, boy, oh boy is Quinctius upset when he comes back and finds that this is what has happened. Because of course, you can’t undo a dedication of a temple.

Dr G 51:22Yeah, if the gods say it’s okay to do it. You go ahead with it. Yeah. Really awkward.

Dr Rad 51:27Yeah. So he therefore makes a formal complaint to the Senate who do nothing.

Dr G 51:34Amazing.

Dr Rad 51:35Yeah. Which I just thought again, sometimes, even in the midst of doing something, it’s not every day that someone these days would dedicate a temple. And yet, the toxic workplace, the HR that does nothing.

Dr G 51:51I can’t believe you would undermine me like that. I’m gonna put in a complaint.

Dr Rad 51:55Yeah.

Dr G 51:56Why have I never heard back?

Dr Rad 51:58And did so I thought that was just a hilarious little side note to add to wrap up the year 431 before we head into the Partial Pick. All right, Dr. G, tell us what the Partial Pick is all about

Dr G 52:17The Partial Pick. Well, we evaluate Rome by its own criteria, which means sometimes they do fabulously. And sometimes they do terribly. They can win up to 50 Golden Eagles across five categories out of 10 each. So first cab off the rank is military clout.

Dr Rad 52:37Oh, yeah. I mean, this has got to be a high one. I think

Dr G 52:42they did route them in the end after fierce fighting in many quarters.

Dr Rad 52:48And they don’t really seem to have ever put a foot wrong.

Dr G 52:51That’s true. Yeah. Hit the cavalry. That was a good move.

Dr Rad 52:56Yep. sneak attacks. Working as a team. Yeah.

Dr G 52:59Throwing a standard into a camp. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, despite I mean, all of the commanders seem to get injured in fantastically Homeric ways. But aside from that, or good, I mean, this as long as the scars are on the front, still. Okay.

Dr Rad 53:15Absolutely. So is it a 10? Or is that too high?

Dr G 53:19No, I think it might be a 10. Because everybody loves this dictator. It seems like the legacy of the narrative is like this guy was great.

Dr Rad 53:27Yeah. Okay, so we’re on a 10. Good start, or we’ve already beaten that previous goal. Let’s just stop.

Dr G 53:35Diplomacy.

Dr Rad 53:37I think we have agreed in the past that when war is happening, it tends to imply that diplomacy is not,

Dr G 53:42but they do give the spoils to the Latins and the Hernicians that were their spoils in the beginning. That seems a pretty nice thing to do.

Dr Rad 53:53I guess there’s a certain diplomacy involved in that. But I again, I’m only going to give them the one Dr. G.

Dr G 54:01Always having to convince you on the diplomacy.

Dr Rad 54:04They’re not they’re not a very diplomatic people. They’re just not.

Dr G 54:06That’s true. That’s yeah, yeah. Expansion.

Dr Rad 54:09No, I mean, they they’re just fighting, I think a defensive or at this point in time.

Dr G 54:14Yeah. There’s no claiming of territory, really. Virtus?

Dr Rad 54:17Yes. I think that would be a yes.

Dr G 54:20Incredible amounts of virtus on display.

Dr Rad 54:23Yeah,

Dr G 54:23Wounded shoulders being pinned to horses, conking a stone in their head. It’s all happening. And also that final tragic story, whether we believe it or not, is actually a huge example of the way that Romans think about virtus as well. Like, what is the most important thing for a Roman man, and part of it is to prioritize Rome over anything else.

Dr Rad 54:49And there’s nothing more precious than a son.

Dr G 54:52Hmm,

Dr Rad 54:53Yeah.

Dr G 54:54So that that is a big thing to do.

Dr Rad 54:56Yeah.

Dr G 54:56And it seems that like it was super important that he did it. In order to maintain the structures as they stand.

Dr Rad 55:04So is that going to be a 10? out of 10? Again?

Dr G 55:07I feel like it yeah.

Dr Rad 55:08Okay. All right. Let’s do it.

Dr G 55:09Horrifyingly so.

Dr Rad 55:11Yeah. Who would have known that the execution of children is what would bring us to this point?

Dr G 55:18It was old enough to be in battle. I don’t think I mean, he was a child in the sense that you know, that his father did it. But, uh, you know, anyway, yeah. The citizens score.

Dr Rad 55:29But there’s not much specific mention of citizens, apart from the fact that there’s no Get Out of Jail Free card in this battle.

Dr G 55:37No, it’s not a it’s not a great levy to be part of. No,

Dr Rad 55:41but on the other hand, there are no specific complaints. So

Dr G 55:49Are complaints permitted under a dictator?

Dr Rad 55:52Well, he’s not always in charge. There’s no specific complaints mentioned in the lead up to him being appointed, you know whether consuls are bickering.

Dr G 56:04Yeah, look, I don’t want to say that the absence of evidence means that it’s definitely not happening, but

Dr Rad 56:13Oh, no, I don’t think it’s great. I would, I would wait, I would fall on the side of it not being a great time because there’s conflict. Nobody’s accepting any excuses. Room is victorious. Okay. It could be a lot worse, but

Dr G 56:29People definitely have to die for that to happen. It’s not like they get out unscathed.

Dr Rad 56:33Exactly. So when are we going to say like a three? Yeah, maybe a two or three? Yeah. Okay. Well, let’s say three. That means that room has a grand total of 24 Golden Eagles. They’re so close to getting a pass.

Dr G 56:53One day soon.

Dr Rad 56:55But you know, that’s a massive improvement from our previous episode, which was one.

Dr G 56:59Yeah, look, they’ve come a long way in just a year. It’s amazing what a couple of great battles and a dictator will do for you.

Dr Rad 57:05Exactly, exactly. Well, thanks so much for telling me all about another glorious Postumius to add to my collection.

Dr G 57:15It’s been an absolute pleasure. And thank you so much for sharing all of these details about 431. I knew so little going in, and now I feel so enriched.

Dr Rad 57:23Don’t thank me. Thank Livy.

Dr G 57:30On behalf of Dr. Rad and myself, I want to send a huge thank you to all of our listeners and supporters. As you may know, we have our new book, our first our only currently book coming out very soon it is called “Rex, The Seven Kings of Rome”. And if you’re interested in pre ordering a copy, you’ll need to head over to Highlands dash press.com to secure your copy. You’ll be supporting an indie publisher, which is very much in keeping with what we’re all about, as well as indie podcasters. And in keeping with our thanks to our patrons, we want to send a shout out to the following people as well. Alex, Amanda, Zara Ben CW Dariel David M. David R. David T. Dendrio, Dorian, Alicia and Erin, thank you so much for your support. And thank you for listening in.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We were thrilled to sit down and talk with Assistant Professor Katharine Huemoeller about her research into the representation of enslaved women during slave revolts in ancient Rome. This conversation reveals plenty of food for thought about the representation of women in the ancient world as well as exploring the way women go on to be represented in later eras.

Special Episode – Enslaved Women during Slave Revolts with Assistant Professor Katharine Huemoeller

The Slaves are Revolting

And rightly so. Conditions for enslaved people in ancient Rome could vary widely from difficult manual roles such as mining and agriculture to the challenges of proximity to enslavers in the domestic sphere. Human trafficking also has a significant role to play in understanding gladiators. Assistant Professor Huemoeller takes us through some of the main ways to consider slavery in Rome before turning our attention to three key slave revolts:

• Revolt of Volsinii (265 BCE)
• First Sicilian Slave War (135-132 BCE)
• Third Slave War/ Spartacus Slave War (73-71 BCE)

These examples offer the opportunity to consider enslaved women a little more closely and it’s here that the conversation gets really interesting.

1024x1012.jpeg" alt="A coloured mosaic depicting two lovers together surrounded by attendants (likely slaves). One pour liquid from a vessel; one attends beside the bed." class="wp-image-4184">

A coloured mosaic depicting two lovers together surrounded by attendants (likely slaves). One pour liquid from a vessel; one attends beside the bed. Image courtesy of Wikimedia Commons. Taken in the Kunsthistorisches Museum (Vienna, Austria)

Things to Listen Out for

• The role of menstruation during Spartacus’ war against Rome!
• The agricultural uprising in Sicily and the ways in which slaves treated free women
• The challenges of reading with and against the evidence when it comes to the Volsinii
• And no conversation about Spartacus would be complete without a deep dive into the representation of women in Kirk Douglas’ Spartacus (1960) and the more recent Starz series Spartacus: Blood and Sand

gustave-clarence-rudolphe-french-1824-1888-the-slave-market-1024x760.png" alt="A painting called 'The Slave Market' which shows a range of enslaved people waiting to be sold. Most wear discs around their neck indicating their enslaved status." class="wp-image-4183">

A painting called ‘The Slave Market’ by Gustave Boulanger (1886) which shows a range of enslaved people waiting to be sold. Most wear discs around their neck indicating their enslaved status.

Music

Thanks to the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Readings

• Huemoeller, Katharine P. D. 2021. ‘Sexual Violence in Republican Slave Revolts‘ in Kamen, D., Marshall, C. W. (eds.) Slavery and Sexuality in Classical Antiquity (University of Wisconsin Press), 159-173.
• Huemoeller, Katharine P. D. 2020. ‘Freedom in Marriage? Manumission for Marriage in the Roman World‘ The Journal of Roman Studies 110: 123-139.
• Huemoeller, Katharine P. D. 2021. ‘Captivity for All? Slave Status and Prisoners of War in the Roman Republic‘ TAPA 151.1: 101-125.

Automated Transcript

Generated by Otter AI. Hopes and prayers for the AI learning our Australian accents, Latin terms, and other very niche phrases!

Dr Rad 0:16Welcome to The Partial Historians,

Dr G 0:19we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad 0:23Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad

Dr G 0:34and I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Romans saw it by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad 0:43Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Welcome to a special episode of The Partial Historians, I am one of your hosts Dr. Rad

Dr G 1:07and I’m Dr. G.

Dr Rad 1:09We are joined by a very exciting guest who shares some of our interests today, we are joined by Professor Huemoeller. Assistant Professor Huemoeller worked for a nonprofit, the National Women’s Law Centre in Washington, DC for several years before returning to the academic world. She has taught at Princeton University, Middlebury College, and at US correctional facilities through the prison teaching initiatives. She is currently the Assistant Professor of Roman History at the University of British Columbia. And we are very excited to talk to her today, because her special areas of interest include things like slavery and sexual violence, and we’re going to be another word excited about sexual violence. But we’re excited that we’re going to be talking about issues of slavery and gender. That’s probably what I should say. So welcome to the show.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:59Thank you so much. That always happens to me. I can’t wait to teach this class on slavery. It’ll be interesting that Yeah.

Dr Rad 2:08All right. So let’s kick off with one of our introductory questions. So you’ve obviously written a lot about incidents of slave results in the Roman Republic, but just to set the scene for our listeners, can you tell us a little bit about the status of slaves in Rome?

Katharine Huemoeller 2:24Yeah, absolutely. So I’ll talk specifically about slaves in the Republican era, because slavery is quite distinct in different periods of Roman history. And it really sort of takes off in terms of numbers in the Italian peninsula, in the third and second centuries BCE, as Rome expands, more and more people are trafficked into Italy, and sold on the slave market. So there’s a direct link between Roman conquest and the growth of the Roman Empire and the growth of the Roman slave system. But what slavery looked like and how it was experienced was extremely diverse. And some people were were employed on plantation style, agricultural estates, for surplus, you know, production of food, with very, very tough conditions, very harsh conditions, and very little chance of ever being manumitted, much less living a very long life. Other people lived in an urban context, or worked in a domestic context. And the lived conditions were perhaps a bit better than agricultural slavery. But it came with its own horrors, including proximity to owners, maybe increased chance of sexual violence and sexual exploitation, especially for enslaved women, but also for enslaved men. So it looked really different depending on who your owner was, and where you lived, and also, who you were, where you came from. And if you are a man or a woman or a child or an adult.

Dr G 3:58Yeah, it’s a there’s a lot to take in when it comes to thinking about like the status of slaves in the ancient Roman world, just because there are so many diverse areas that somebody could end up in in terms of like, their place, either like, maybe it will be mining, maybe it will be in the field, maybe it will be in the home. And all of those come with their own risks. And to I don’t think we should ever underestimate the nature of the human workforce that is being utilised in many ancient societies in particularly ancient Rome, just in terms of when you look back to see what was achieved and also the labour that was utilised to achieve those things. So thank you so much for giving us a bit of a taste of the things that are going to be coming out. As we delve further into the questions.

Katharine Huemoeller 4:53That point about under estimating is an important one too, because the big challenge with ancient slavery is I mean, we can say It looks very diverse, that’s clearly true. But it’s hard to say much else definitively because our record for ancient slavery is is so difficult. And certain types of slavery, certain sleeving strategies appear appear more clearly in the historical record than others. So we have more information, for example, about agricultural slavery in this period, you know, and sort of less idea what’s going on in a domestic context or more information about enslaved men than about enslaved women. So it’s always the question of filling in these very large gaps in our archive.

Dr Rad 5:35Oh, definitely. Look, we’ve found we’ve been looking at the Roman monarchy a bit because we’ve been working on a book on that period. And as you said, I tend to think of slavery more later in room’s history, you know, during the Republic, when we start to see those big wars that are happening, and lots of people being captured in a conflict and then being made slaves, and then that obviously setting up the possibility of having more slaves because their people are bought into slavery, etc, etc. But the crazy thing was that when we actually stopped and looked at the records, there were references to slaves, and they were everywhere, even in that very early period. And whilst Okay, yeah, some things you know, you might look at them as being maybe troops or something like that. There’s just so many references to think that slavery itself wasn’t a part of Roman society, even all the way back at the beginning.

Katharine Huemoeller 6:27Yeah, I completely agree. And I think there’s still a lot of work to be done on these earlier forms of slavery. I mean, obviously, it’s in the tall tables, which I know you guys covered. And that’s a great indication that it’s, you know, significant, and it’s a maybe a fairly clear demarcated legal status. But then, of course, it’s also, you know, only one of many different types of dependency in that period, including debt bondage, and, and maybe there was less of a clear line between these types of exploitation. And then the other issue, of course, is that I think in that early period, maybe there are more enslaved people coming from closer to the city of Rome, as opposed to from very far away. And so I expect there, you know, there’s a difference there in terms of the relationship of ethnicity and slavery, but I think there’s a lot more work to be done.

Dr G 7:17Definitely. Yeah, once you start looking into the little tidbits that we do have access to is like, Yeah, you get the sense that this is a much wider picture. And there’s much more that we can learn as we go along. So thinking about your work and where it has led you in your research, you have focused on three main revolts, slave revolts. So when people are rising up against these conditions that they have found themselves in their lack of agency, and then recapturing that through the process of revolt. And I’m wondering if we can just go through the details of them a little bit. So starting with the revolt of the Volsinii in 265 BCE? What’s going on there?

Katharine Huemoeller 8:00Yeah, this is one I really didn’t know much about until I started researching this topic. This the Spartacus revolt is very famous, right?

Dr Rad 8:07I’ve never heard of it.

Katharine Huemoeller 8:14So um, so this revolt is as definitely more small scale earlier on right in the third century, middle third century. And the sources for it are a bit sketchy, but it is attested in multiple sources. And what seems to happen is that there’s some sort of uprising in this atrocity and city. And it’s a sort of class struggle, and the exact identity of the people rising after it is different in different sources. In some sources, they’re enslaved people. And it’s a serious enough for revolt that the city asks Rome to intervene and assist and, you know, setting the social order back to what it was. So that’s, that’s one of these revolts. And I think it’s an interesting one, because it’s clear that there’s actually a lot of smaller scale revolts happening in the third and second century that we only hear little snippets about, but it seems actually to have been quite frequent. And Amy racialist has done some work on gathering these into a timeline in her slave theatre book. So, just recognising that probably this is happening quite frequently in the Italian peninsula and these two in these two centuries, even though you know, the ones we hear about are these larger scale ones that are called the really the first second and third servile wars essentially. So moving into the second one there, or the first one there, that’s a little less than a century later and the 130s in on the island of Sicily. So, all of these are taking place, you know, I guess I say the Italian peninsula but including Sicily, so in you know, Italy, Southern Italy and Sicily, in regions where agriculture is, you know, predominant. And this first slave revolt is led by a charismatic figure named Yunus As who sort of rises up in one of the major cities in the Catanian plain of Sicily, again, this really important sort of grain producing region, and he manages to, you know, work with other enslaved people in the area to capture the city, and then the revolt spreads to the whole island. And you know, that’s when, of course, Rome takes notice. And then the third one that’s quite that I focus on is the Spartacus slave war, sometimes known as the third slave war, which again, is happening a little less than a century after that. So in the 70s BCE, and in this one, an interesting man, a very enigmatic man named Spartacus, who is maybe Thracian, maybe not, is captured and enslaved in a gladiatorial school in Capua, and manages to break out along with other enslaved Gladiators, and maybe his wife, but we’ll get to that. And once again, you know, similarly to the first slave revolt, the revolt is sort of, at first seen as a minor thing, and not much effort is put to putting it down. And then it sort of grows in size as the rebel army starts to grow as encompasses other people, other enslaved people, but also maybe other free but disenfranchised people in the south of Italy. And it becomes a quite massive revolts that, you know, the Roman army actually takes a few years to suppress.

Dr Rad 11:29Amazing, thank you so much for that. So obviously, there’s a lot that is interesting about these slave revolts. But I believe the reason that you have focused on these ones in your article was that these revolts involve violence, and particularly, they are revolts that involve sexual violence. And we’ve got records of that. So what did you notice about the way this violence has been represented in the sources?

Katharine Huemoeller 11:57Yeah, so these these revolts came to my notice, because I am currently working on a book project on the sexual exploitation of enslaved people. And what I noticed in these revolts is that one of the types of violence that the enslaved rebels are said to direct at the free people, and particularly at their enslavers is sexual violence. And so I was interested in looking at sort of what how that manifested itself, not so much to understand what happened during these revolts. But instead to understand from the perspective of these free writers, what did they think enslaved people wanted to rebel against? What kind of violence did they think they wanted to inflict on the Masters, understanding that this is essentially a sort of role reversal, where the enslaved people are said to inflict the types of violence that they themselves have experienced as slaves? So I thought this could tell me something about the conditions of slavery. What I found when I looked at the sources is that there’s actually lots of different types of sexual violence that are inflicted on free people in these revolts. But it’s all directed at free women. And so what we see is that the slave rebels are said to commit acts of rape, and other types of sexual outrage, essentially, it’s very vague, to free matrons and to free virgins, and that these are done in front of their husbands or fathers. And that second part of that second detail clued me in to the fact that these acts are actually sort of intended to injure the free men, using the free women sort of as an instrument. And so that’s, that’s what I became interested in, through studying these is the way in which these enslaved men are sort of claiming the privileges of free masculinity in the revolts.

Dr G 13:56Yeah, this is a really interesting aspect and insight into Roman sexuality, isn’t it? Because the this ties back into these ideas about the power that is thought to be inherent from a Roman perspective in sexual encounters, where it’s partly to do with the gender of the people involved, but it’s also partly to do with how you place yourself in the patriarchal hierarchy of Roman society who gets to do who to white becomes super important for being able to like know exactly where you sit socially, not just sexually, and the utilisation of women in this not as sort of agents in their own right, but perhaps as vehicles for conveying something about Roman masculinity is not at all surprising, but incredibly infuriating. I feel like

Katharine Huemoeller 14:50yeah, that Yeah, that’s exactly right. What I’ve what I found is that it wasn’t just that these enslaved men were raping the free women. It was also the If they were, for example, protecting some free women from rape and choosing to rape others, or so this idea that the free masculinity or hegemonic masculinity and Roman society is about not just getting to do what you want to other people, but choosing right, who experiences what and who was allowed to do what. And so that includes not only, you know, sexual violence directed and enslaved people, but also that includes the sort of protection or maybe you could say, I don’t know, supervision, control of free women. So one of the stories that we get in the slave revolts is that the slave rebels choose this one teenage free woman who was very kind to them when they were enslaved, and they escort her to the house of her family members, and explicitly are protecting her sexual virtue. And I think that is as much a privilege of free masculinity, as you know, raping the matrons in front of their husbands.

Dr Rad 16:06Absolutely. And I mean, obviously, this sexual violence is taking place in a broader context as well. Like, that’s not the only privilege that they’re claiming all of the time. And the one that particularly stood out to me in this regard is the the revolt of Athena, which I never really heard of before reading your article, as you said, it’s the lesser known. So thinking about what the slaves might have been trying to achieve through their actions, you know, more broadly speaking, because I know that during that particular revolt, they take all sorts of crazy actions, you wouldn’t expect slaves to, you know, to be able to take or to even maybe want to take in trying to, you know, set themselves up in a new way of life after their revolt. Yeah,

Katharine Huemoeller 16:49this is a really interesting one. So supposedly, they, they sort of enact a number of reforms. It’s actually very, it’s very legalistic, rather than, you know, crazy violence, right. So one of the things they do is they become senators, they set up a sort of their own Senate. Another thing they do is they sort of rewrite the rules of inheritance. And it’s a little unclear, either they become the heirs to their former owners, or they write their own wills, it’s not clear which one and then they also rewrite the rule of stupid, which is illicit sex in Roman law. So this is technically happening in an attractive city, but extremely Roman. And always. And so what they say is that a free woman is is not allowed to get married to a free man, until an enslaved man has, has had sex with her first, which is just an extremely strange reform, and is again clearly linked to these ideas about what masculinity is and how to punish free men. And this is the sort of ultimate punishment right to make them marry a woman over whom they’ve had no control over her chastity or sexual virtue.

Dr G 18:05I think this also tells us something about the nature of what our written sources, perhaps fear most, they’re kind of writing a narrative about, like, what are they most afraid of happening to them? If the slaves succeed? This is not a narrative of how slaves might have pursued their own freedom or how they would have defined it. I don’t know if I was a slave, I’d want to be my first task would be inheritance law, for instance.

Katharine Huemoeller 18:30Right? Yeah, absolutely. This is like all of these sources are about what free people fear, they, I think have give us almost nothing about what actually happened with these revolts, or what the enslaved people want. But yeah, what’s so notable about about their desires, as represented in these sources is that they just want to be the free men, they want to take over all of their life and their privileges and their wives and their daughters. There is nothing in these accounts, hardly about enslaved women, or children. Right. So the idea here is that these men, when they sort of take control of society, they want to marry the wives of their former owners. That is not like what we see, for example, in Roman comedy, which is from a similar time period, right in which matrons are like gross, no one wants. They’re not. They’re not like objects of desire, right? But in these narratives, they are like, these are the women who are raped or taken as wives by these by these freed slaves. And so what we’re seeing there definitely is intended to show what emasculation looks like, I think in the Roman worlds, that’s what’s feared. And of course, you get that in the military context, right? The slaves are actually winning battles against the Romans. That’s really embarrassing to and emasculating. And now we also see sort of what’s emasculating in the private sphere in the home, or in the domestic sphere. Well, it’s

Dr Rad 19:58so fascinating that you mentioned this, but because we one of the categories that we use in our show, when we’re ranking, the Romans performance when we’re doing a narrative is where source. So this inherently masculine, you know, like value, I suppose you’d call it or quality. And we try and think of that as obviously the, in a way, it’s like that right to take action, and to do so in a particular way. And it kind of ties into what you’re talking about, I think a little bit here about what the slaves are trying to claim potentially.

Katharine Huemoeller 20:32Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it’s definitely where to send the Roman the Roman definition of virtue of manliness, the ability to dictate what gets done to other people, all of these other people who are subordinate to the, you know, the free male head of household. And I think that this is really encapsulated in one other event from these revolts that we haven’t talked about, which is a very another very strange one. It is the slave supposedly throw a funeral for a free captive matron, who has committed suicide, because she was raped by these slave rebels. And then to make this inversion even stronger, they force the men to perform the free men who are also captive here to perform gladiatorial combat, in honour of this woman at her funeral, because initially, that’s where gladiatorial combat came from, it was a funeral thing. And so, you know, they’re putting the men obviously in the position that they once were as gladiators. But they’re also forcing them to, you know, to participate in this sort of strange mourning of this woman who they should have been able to protect but failed to.

Dr G 21:49Yeah, it’s a complicated situation for everybody to be in, I mean, the woman and what she went through that led her to her committing suicide, the situation where the roles have been reversed with the slaves and the Romans, and then the gladiatorial lair of a formal mourning process.

Katharine Huemoeller 22:09And yeah, yeah, especially an interesting story. That’s so yeah, ripe for analysis. I mean, she’s very much the woman is like, very much like this Lucretia figure, right?

Dr Rad 22:18Yeah. And so they that particular incident that you’re talking about, I believe, takes place allegedly, in the third serve our war, or the Spartacus revolts, whatever you want to call it. And I believe it comes from a source, a rosiest? Yeah, who’s writing a lot later, who’s actually writing in a Christian context. And I think that this kind of highlights not that this is something that you’re necessarily focusing on. But this sort of highlights, I suppose the issues that you must encounter with the varying kinds of source material that you’re working with for the sorts of incidents?

Katharine Huemoeller 22:50Oh, yeah, that’s a huge problem. You’re using a Christian source to look at sexual norms in the Roman world. It’s gonna be quite different. Certainly, then, you know, Salas, for example, who’s you know, writing in the Roman Republic, the sources for these revolts, especially, you know, as we’ll go on to talk about for, you know, the presence of enslaved women and these revolts or the participation of women, these revolts there, so fragmentary and problematic, they’ve come down to us by chance, often, and they just kind of feel like they got in there by chance. Like, we weren’t even supposed to know about this. Yeah.

Dr G 23:27Yeah. Like, I feel like I’ve got a question forming that’s related to the way that women are represented in these in these source materials. I mean, it’s partly the Euros Yes, question, I suppose in that sort of like that Christian framing, although I do love a good a rose. Yes, he does a lot of things that we don’t get to wear. But that sense in which none of these sources seem to really consider a woman’s perspective. They’re always a sort of utilitarian device in these narratives. And I’m wondering how much we can actually get out what it might have been like for these women, either as enslaved peoples, or ones who were free and become part of these enslaved narratives through these sorts of revolts with this role reversal stuff going on? Yeah,

Katharine Huemoeller 24:15it’s really tough. The women and the stories, both free and enslaved women are very much sort of instruments of male competition, you know, violence. Yeah, just they’re sort of communicate with each other through these women is how I see it. And that’s true of the free women and the enslaved women. So when it comes to trying to understand their experience of revolt, their role and participation in it, we kind of have to work against what our sources are doing frequently. So that’s kind of a project I’m working on now is trying to understand the role of, of women in these revolts. It’s quite clear that there were women present In all of these revolts, enslaved women present in the revolts because they kind of creep into the sources just occasionally. So you just get these sort of casual asides about them, which are very tantalising. And then so I’m trying to sort of use each of these very, you know, casual references, and you focus in on it and try to unpack what it can tell us about women and these revolts. So I could we could go through a few of them if you’d like, because they’re really fascinating.

Dr Rad 25:28I really hoping that this is the part where you’re going to bring up the women who apparently separated themselves from the Spartacan army because they’re almost exactly my favourite.

Katharine Huemoeller 25:36They are my favourite example. We have to excitingly we have two references to this one incident, probably the same incident, where these two women are separated from the rest of the Spartacan army. They’re on a hill of sorts. And they’re doing something on that hill. And from the vantage point of the hill, they see the Roman army approaching, trying to stage an ambush, and they sound the alarm and the ambush fails. So what’s so interesting about this, the sources that are this incident is that the two writers who record it, record different reasons for why the women are up there. So Salas, who’s writing in the Republic tells us that the women were Adminster Russell window, which is you a phrase used in other texts, in reference to menstruation. But it basically means like carrying out their monthly things, duties,

Dr Rad 26:30rituals, women’s business.

Katharine Huemoeller 26:33Yes, exactly.

Dr G 26:36Just up on the hill doing what,

Katharine Huemoeller 26:38we don’t want to get too detailed about it, but there and then Plutarch, writing later, and probably looking at Sallust says that the two women are up there sacrificing or carrying out some sort of religious ritual. These things aren’t mutually exclusive, of course, right? They might be carrying out some sort of monthly ritual.

Dr G 26:56Look, I feel like in the ancient world, if I was menstruating, I would definitely want to have a ritual associated with that of some kind and be like, Gods what’s going on? Yeah, it’s been days. When does this stop?

Katharine Huemoeller 27:07Yeah, yeah. But once you do it in the middle of a revolt,

Dr G 27:13like it’s tough, and it’s like, you know, if you hang out with the revolt, and you’re down on the ground, and it’s happening, and the men are turning to you being like, Are you wounded? And you’re like, I am? I am. That’s definitely what’s happening here. Like the enemies no where here. And there is definitely a situation, I don’t know what to tell you. Like, maybe it would be easier to go up the hill and be like, you know, I just need some respite from this revolt. These guys. I don’t know.

Katharine Huemoeller 27:38Yeah. And I’m gonna take a friend with me here, the two of us are going off. Yeah, I mean, this. So this is a perfect example of the way these women sort of creep into our sources, because the only reason we even know about the stylist is that tiny fragment was excerpted for grammatical reasons. They liked the reference that women are Gallic, and there’s this weird word for Gallic in it. So they’re accepted by this later group, Marian. And then we have one single manuscript that preserves this reference by the Grimm Aryan. So that is how these women come down to us, like, by so many different elements of chance, and without the stylus, we would really not understand what foods are. So it’s just like, they’ve kind of slipped into the record, I like to think of it that way. And, and so it’s exciting opportunity for us to, to think about, you know, in what other ways they’ve slipped in, but also like, all of the ways that they’re missing, but clearly there. So in this case, you know, my, what I think is so funny about this account is like, this is basically a very embarrassing situation for the Romans, they are already engaged in a war against enslaved people, which is embarrassing, and then they’re, they’re, you know, about to, you know, have this ambush and to women. Foreign enslaved women are the ones that spy

Dr Rad 28:57on their periods like, yeah, it’s

Katharine Huemoeller 29:00Just like the worst of the worst for them, right?

Dr G 29:03Yeah, it’s hitting me, right in my virtus as a Roman man, I don’t know.

Katharine Huemoeller 29:08Talk about virtus, exactly. Like, of course, to me. Of course, these writers want to explain their presence. In other ways. They don’t want to say, hey, they were up there scouting, and they were successful.

Dr G 29:21Yeah, these women were actually great at reconnaissance. And that’s why we sent them up there. And their sole job was to like, watch for the Army coming. And boy, did they nail that assignment?

Katharine Huemoeller 29:31Exactly, exactly. Instead, they’re like, well, they just happened to be up there. And like, you know, they were very lucky that they saw us, you know, and that’s the other thing. It’s like, why would why do we trust Plutarch or stylist to tell us with us? I remember doing I mean, it’s crazy talk about like, you know, who has authority to tell us information? The Roman army would have maybe they would know they had been spied right. But they would have no idea like by who or why I mean, it just doesn’t make sense.

Dr G 29:57Oh, come on. There’s gotta be somebody from ancient Rome Entertainment Tonight interviewing people afterwards. Like you were there. What did you see? What were you doing?

Katharine Huemoeller 30:06Yeah, I mean, actually think that the most likely source is a cat a later captive, right? Because we know like Julius Caesar, for example, regularly interrogated captives to ask like what happened to them? And you know so so that’s kind of interesting. But yeah, I just love this this incidence of you know what, to me very clearly is these women you know having a strategic role essentially in the military and instead are explained away for other reasons.

Dr Rad 30:32He reminds me of one of my favourite scenes from Parks and Recreation, where the whole gang from Parks and Rec are out on a shooting trip, someone gets shot accidentally. And a polis character is trying to cover for how that’s happened by taking responsibility herself because she has a gun licence and the person who did it doesn’t. And so when she’s being interviewed by the Ranger, or the sheriff, or whatever, she’s like, I don’t know, I’m wearing this bra that like open at the front, and it just threw me I want chocolate. I love my period, bitches be crazy.

Katharine Huemoeller 31:05Every possible

Dr Rad 31:07everything related to him and every stereotype at it, you’ll it’ll land, it’ll land. And actually, I

Katharine Huemoeller 31:12should note too, like, it’ll lands not only with an ancient audience, but with a modern one. Because What’s so weird about this source is that there is actually no attestation of menstrual seclusion. As a practice, no, in the West, like, that is not a thing. And yet everybody’s like, Oh, there it is. So we knew it was happening here, too. And you’re like, What is this the source we’re gonna use for this? Really?

Dr G 31:34You’re one fragment that’s from a single source. Good luck, guys. Yeah.

Dr Rad 31:42So interesting. And then of course, the other woman that we we can’t neglect to talk about is Spartacus’ wife, very intriguing character.

Katharine Huemoeller 31:51I was about to say Varinia. But then it was like, wait, no,

Dr Rad 31:53I was about to say exactly the same thing. Because to me, she is for any issue will always be Varinia, yes. But if we’re going by the ancient source material, the nameless woman that is known as Spartacus is why

Katharine Huemoeller 32:05exactly, yeah, we have we here plutonic that Spartacus, basically it’s sort of Plutarch introducing Spartacus as a character, a person and he says that he came from Thrace, and that he had a wife with him, who prophesized that he would be, you know, a great force, essentially, by seeing a snake curled up around his head, I think, and this was taking place in, you know, the slave market, and then somehow that they actually wound up together at the gladiatorial school, because he also, Plutarch also says that she was with him when he escaped, or she took part in the escape. So that’s interesting, because it suggests right, that this idea that, you know, they were together for a longer period of time, and that they somehow managed to stay together. Yeah. Yeah. I think that fact especially has attracted a lot of attention and made them like kind of a good opportunity for romance, essentially. Because for a story, right, because it’s so such an interesting, unusual detail.

Dr Rad 33:04Absolutely. And she’s such a, she’s become so much a part of Spartacus as legend, I suppose in subsequent interpretations as well. She’s been really fully fleshed out. But we have so little about her apart from the fact that she might have been, like some sort of profit tests. And that Yeah, and that she managed to stay by his side, which just seems so unlikely in given what we know about slave auctions and gladiatorial schools, it just seems so rare that they would still be together.

Katharine Huemoeller 33:34This whole episode is we’re like, no, that didn’t happen. to happen. It didn’t happen. But I was curious Dr. G, what, like, just because the other element of her that’s interesting is right, that she’s this really yeah, she’s his profit figure. And then, you know, these other women that were part of the revolt were maybe, you know, engaged in sacrifice. So there is this sort of like aura of religiosity around these women. I was wondering what your take on that was, as you know, someone who’s looked at?

Dr G 34:01Yeah, look, I think it’s really fascinating the way that when women crop up in narratives, it’s one of the ways that’s acceptable for them to do so is through the practice of ritual. And what we’re seeing is that this pertains not just to Roman women, but to non Roman women as well, because the in all of these cases, we’re dealing with, presumably enslaved women who have at this stage by the time we’re in the Spartacus war period when we’re talking about foreign slaves, really. And so we get that weird sort of sense. But it also, I feel like this taps back into like, really ancient narratives and stuff, and I feel like the figure that pops out to me at the moment, mostly because I’ve been working on the Roman kings is Tana Quill, and this idea, so she’s the Prophet Hess. She can read the auspices and she ends up being able to prophesize the role of her husband, Lucia Tarquinius, Priscus well, before he get gets into power. And so this kind of sense in which Romans explain unusual rises to power and shifts in power through the divine, and not just through the divine, but through a female interpretation of the acts of gods. And so those women up on the hill, maybe it was the ritual, and Renea, my flesh, rabbit. Maybe it was the ritual, although I don’t know how anyone could possibly explain her being in that gladiatorial school as being like a realistic idea about the narrative. But so I’m really fascinated to understand more about gladiatorial schools to be like, do they always just take the ladies with them to keep them happy? Or something? I don’t know. Do they come as pairs? I’m looking around. And but yeah, this idea of direct line between like Women’s Action, informing men’s action through ritual understanding in the middle, it’s really common. And I think it’s partly because of that patriarchal framing of like, one way to women fit in this society, and it’s not at all clear. And God’s being somewhat unexplainable, like women, God,

Katharine Huemoeller 36:11both unexplained, mysterious. Yeah, I think that’s definitely that, that that makes a lot of sense to me. And it’s, I think putting that the religious aura of Spartacus, in the context of the slave revolts is important, too, because a number of this sort of leading figures are said to have this some sort of religious significance or prophetic charismatic, fire, breathing, whatever, in whatever way it manifests itself. And so in some ways that actually may have been a really important part of Spartacus is leadership of this revolt. And she’s clearly an important part of that. And yet, her significance to the revolt Overall, though, is still really slim with it. So it’s kind of interesting, because you could think, oh, this made her a really key part of the revolt, because, you know, his charisma is really significant to the revolt success. And yet, you know, it’s she’s only associated with him at the moment of breaking out and then we don’t hear what if she’s involved in the revolt for as it grows larger and larger and more significant, she drops out of the narrative altogether. So it kind of minimises her role by placing her at the very beginning, even though there’s a possibility that that prophecy was actually really significant to the level.

Dr G 37:27And it also helps, I think, from a Roman perspective, to really explain why things don’t go their way. And having those sorts of prophecies. It really taps into that sense of like, well, we didn’t make a mistake. We’re Romans, the gods were against us.

Dr Rad 37:43Yes, good point. Well, I mean, it kind of depends as well on what their background is potentially like, if if Spartacus was genuinely Thracian, not fought as a Thracian. Maybe she was also Thracian. And so it’s just there’s so many question marks, though, about whether they actually weren’t any of this. But certainly, in relation to your earlier question, Dr. G, it’s not out of the question, obviously, that there are women who are being used for sexual purposes in a gladiatorial school. Certainly, if you became a highly prized successful gladiator you earned, you know, more privileges in the greater terrorist gladiatorial school where you were staying, you know, you could actually be like, somewhat tolerable, apart from the fact that you had to, you know, fight for your life and that kind of thing. But I don’t know whether a new recruit to a gladiatorial school will have earned any such privilege. And so I guess it just sort of, it must be chance if it actually happened, although I’ve also highly dubious about whether it did, but it must be chance that she also just happened to be what they were looking for in terms of, you know, like pitch and stuff. Or maybe they did want her for sexual purposes. Like, who knows. But yeah, whatever the purpose was, it must have been purely accidental. There is no way they’d be doing Spartacus anything. That’s yeah,

Katharine Huemoeller 39:01and especially the way it’s represented in Plutarch is that they are captured together, right? They come from the same place, and then they that’s why they’re together and the slave market. And then it’s like, almost like they’re bought in a lot.

Dr Rad 39:13Exactly. Yeah. That’s very possible. Yeah. But it does seem a little a little weird for a gladiatorial school to be like yeah, man, women. Yeah, whatever. We’ll take them all. Yeah, yeah. Cuz this is before the time when it’s common for women to be fighting in the arena, so she wouldn’t have been bought for that purpose. So yeah, strange. Very strange. Yeah, but ripe for fictionalisation. Right? Yeah. Well, that’s just said I was thinking like, I spend a lot of my academic career being like, where is vernia? Why isn’t she more prominent, speaking to you just and it made me realise that actually, it’s really pretty accurate for her to drop out of the store. But it’s my sister button for modern purposes. I constantly am like, Why isn’t she more fun of the story? Why has history are being downgraded? You know, why isn’t she represented the way that she was originally intentioned by Howard Fassler novelists, you know?

Katharine Huemoeller 40:09Well, that’s, you know what? Yeah, that’s what’s so interesting, I think about this idea that she was a prophet test because, you know, when she does appearance in fiction, and you can speak more to this, because I can’t now I don’t know exactly the distinction between the script and the way the movie, I only know the movie, the way Spartacus 1960 ends up representing her, but, you know, she is she’s a completely domestic figure, at least in the second part of the movie during the revolt itself, important as you know, a vessel for bearing a child essentially. And so that’s so different actually, from from the, you know, her significance in Plutarch.

Dr Rad 40:46That is, I mean, I think this is where the TV show by stars plays more with her religious role. You know, it’s a, they go back, because they have more time to play with obviously, they kind of start before the revolt, obviously. And they make Spartacus and auxilary. And they, they give him a whole backstory about why he turns against Rome and all that kind of stuff. And she’s a part of that story. Her death is a part of that story. But her prophecy about how he’s going to achieve like great and glorious things and, and the snake. It’s a theme that goes throughout the whole series, because she is his motivation. And those words are constantly going back to so they make something of that angle in the TV series. But they don’t really talk about that angle very much in the Howard first novel that was used as the basis for the 1960 film. And they don’t really in all of the various versions of the script. The religious side is not really what she’s known for. But she is actually a very significant figure in how it fasts novel, because his novel is told entirely through flashback. So Spartacus is dead by the time you start reading the book, and it’s told through the memories of Varinia, and David, the Jewish guy, who’s also one of Spartacus, his crew. And so it’s really told through her through her reminiscences a lot of the time, and she’s the one that like in the movie ends up surviving goes on to have children and it’s through her and her children that the legend of Spartacus is kept alive. But she’s she’s very significant in terms of being represented as very fierce. So unlike Spartacus, who is born into slavery, and like his life is pretty dreary from the beginning. Varinia has, Varinia is more a person who earlier versions of scripture has been free, and then becomes a slave. And so she fights back like there, there were scenes that were meant to be shown of the slave, the owner of the slave school raping her and her fiercely resisting. And that’s why he gives her to Spartacus, because he couldn’t physically overpower her or at least not to his satisfaction, like it’s, it’s a bit unclear, like they don’t always see obviously, it’s like we see the attack, we see the fight, and then we see her or bruised and stuff. In some versions, I think she’s meant to have been raped in some versions not. So the way it all plays out. It’s really crazy. And then once you get into the actual scripts, they have all these different versions of what she was meant to be in some versions, she was actually meant to be really highly educated. And she teaches Spartacus to read. Yeah, yeah, they. So there’s, there’s all these sorts of things. But certainly in the in the early versions of the script, you see what you see in the Howard first novel, which is that she’s a fighter, she actually there’s actually a line from the Howard fosse novel, which always stands out to me, she says, I can fight like a man can fight. And she’s, she’s definitely portrayed as being at the forefront of these attacks is like this, almost like Valkyrie, like, you know, kind of figure. And when the slaves in the novel erect this big statue to themselves to sort of commemorate who they are, they have representations of all the men from different ethnicities, but then they also have the figure of a woman, and that’s meant to be Varinia. So she’s, she’s definitely like the mother of the slave revolt. But as they get further and further into the script development, her character receives less and less attention, and she does sort of drop out a little bit, and what you’re left with, there are elements of the novel. So her being this figure of fascination for any man that meets her, you know, Batiatus, Spartacus, Crassus, Gracchus, they all fall in love with her. That’s retained, but she’s made much more passive. And it was actually something that the screenwriter, when he first saw the first kind of the film, he rebelled against it. He’s like, what the hell this is not the Varinia that I envisioned and where all the other slave women they just like disappeared, and so they actually did reshoots to add in more families, more slave women more Varinia but I think because of the nature of the ratios, she did end up becoming this What I like to call Stepford Varinia type character?

Katharine Huemoeller 45:03Yeah, yeah. Cuz the, these, these scenes they interspersed are like, women like doing the laundry in the river, you know, during the revolts, and these, like, very domestic.

Dr Rad 45:14Yeah. Which I mean, to be fair, again, if I’m, if I’m being fair, obviously, it’s not like, in the Roman world, it’s not like that wouldn’t have been the kinds of things that women would have been doing if they were attached to a slave army. But it is disappointing when you know, how she could have been represented, I suppose, as this, like she only really stops fighting in some of the earlier versions of the script, because she gets pregnant.

Katharine Huemoeller 45:36Right, right. It’s so interesting to hear that, that there was this distinction made between them, where she was the person who had experienced freedom and therefore was considered to be sort of more, you know, was willing to rebel more, because that’s, that is, you know, sort of that’s kind of a debated topic, like some of the scholarship on the slave revolt says that one of the reasons these happened in this period was because a lot of the people who are being trafficked and you know, into slavery are recently free, and that they like have this sort of memory of freedom, or, you know, impetus for it that other people who are born into slavery might not have, which I don’t think bears out historically. I’ve also recently published an article that argues that, you know, many of the people who are enslaved in Conquest were already enslaved in other contexts, right in other cities, because they’re the people who are most likely to be trafficked to be taken captive and trafficked, a lot of the male, you know, free combatants are killed. And it’s women, both enslaved and free, and enslaved men, elderly people that are the ones who are taken captive. And so I think just because these people are recently sold in, you know, Italy or Sicily, that doesn’t mean that they were free in their lifetime, necessarily, nor does that mean that you would like, be more, you know, willing to revolt necessarily, I think

Dr G 47:02Some of this must be about like, what are the suitable conditions for a revolt to take place? Like, yeah, like, there’s the moment of becoming enslaved whenever that might happen, whether you’re born into slavery, or whether you’re captured, and you have this understanding of our freedom. But I think it would be very naive to assume that people born into slavery don’t have an idea about freedom. What conditions would permit a moment where you’re like, Okay, this is this is the time to stand up and and take that risk, because it is a risk.

Dr Rad 47:32Yeah, look, I think it has a little bit to do with a quick of how I’d fast novels, or how I fast I was attracted to write about Spartacus because of the connection with the revolts, or attempted coup that took place in Germany in 1919. And he started looking into Spartacus and he decided that he was going to make Spartacus, someone who was born into slavery as someone who had worked in the mines most of his life. Now, anybody who knows anything about slavery, whilst you might say, whilst we might not know anything about Spartacus, a backstory that we can definitively prove, I think it’s safe to say we all know that slaves in the mines do not live for really long periods of time. So the idea that he would have somehow been a slave working in the mines, like, basically his whole life or something like that. It just, it doesn’t make sense. But it’s something that they played with, I think, in the various versions of the movie in terms of making Spartacus, someone who was born into slavery, they had all sorts of different ideas about how they were going to start the movie, they were always going to start in the minds like they do. But yeah, either way, I think it’s a quirk from Howard fast, which is probably one of his less credible interpretations of the material.

Katharine Huemoeller 48:48That’s really interesting. Do you think that there was that, you know, he wanted him to be why did he want him to be born into slavery was this idea that he had to be slowly shown another way to live?

Dr Rad 48:59I think that was part of it in a way. Part of the part of the thing about Spartacus is that he learns from other people like he learns from people like David Perdue, who he comes into contact with, but I think it’s meant to be his nature. His his nature, and the nature of Ernie or the nature of all the slaves is meant to somehow be in stark contrast to the Romans, almost like it’s something genetic, though they are meant to represent the right way of life, which is that men and women come together because they love each other. They have to have children, they take an interest in raising those children. It’s it’s heterosexual. And the Romans, on the other hand, everything’s perverted. So they might not have children at all. If they do. They’re not interested in them. They’re not interested in family life. That’s not their thing. They take part in all sorts of twisted sexual practices. Now I say that in the sense of 1950s contexts which for a 1950s context involved homosexuality, but also incest

Katharine Huemoeller 50:07And the women choosing which gladiator to watch.

Dr Rad 50:12That’s that, yeah, that kind of thing. Exactly. So everything about them is meant to be like kind of impure debauch deviant, whereas everything about the slaves is meant to be much more pure. And I think that’s, and it’s also because he’s he’s offering a commentary. I mean, he was a communist. He is he’s offering a commentary on the way that industry and business contributes to this corruption of the soul. So he has actually like some quite lengthy passages where he talks about, I think it’s crisis’s perfume business. Because you do, but yeah, so it’s meant to be about obviously, like, the way that wealth works in each society, and what each society is valuing and how they’re treating workers and the class system. It’s all of these kinds of things, which is why the slaves are meant to be kind of more pure, and the way that they the way that they erected the statue, it’s obviously very, like Soviet Union, in terms of, you know, putting up that kind of imagery of themselves.

Dr G 51:17We need a monument. Quick, somebody

Dr Rad 51:19Yeah, exactly.

Katharine Huemoeller 51:21And that that actually works really well with those scenes from the movie then where there’s these kind of, it’s sort of like this idyllic pastoral existence, like they’re engaged in the middle of a revolt, but they’re, like, you know, taught like singing around a fire and out in the fields. And well, and

Dr Rad 51:37that’s very much, that’s very much how Howard Fast had envisioned the slave society is being like faily. It is like proto communist, you know, that’s exactly how he envisioned is everything working, even the way that he imagines men and women coming together, women are supposed to be able to choose their sexual partners, they’re not just like claimed by another, Gladiator or another man, just because, well, we’re out of the gladiator school, but you’re still a woman, and I still get to say what you do, he still has this vision of people being able to choose, and that includes women being able to choose who they cohabit with, and who they have sex with, as part of their whole,

Dr G 52:14As long as it fits the heteronormative status quo…

Dr Rad 52:18As long as that does that. Yeah.

Katharine Huemoeller 52:21I mean, it’s so interesting that even though, you know, the reasons that these scenes wound up in the movie contemporary to his era, and very historical, in the end, one thing that the movie does, that I think is more true in some ways, is it does indicate, you know, it represents other people and engage in revolt besides just the, you know, enslaved adult men. And so, I mean, not that I think it accurately represents what their women might be were doing necessarily, or whatever, in the revolt, but it does, it just adds new people to the scene. And so that I think that that then can make you think, as a historian think, Okay, well, is there any truth to that? What were these people doing? And, and this, you know, goes beyond just the experience of enslaved women to just to think about when, you know, these rebel armies are, you know, moving up and down all over Italy? And what is the experience of everyone in in this context of revolt, right, the people who are in the town where the rebels arrive in the rebel army, this is obviously something that’s going to affect everyone in society. But we don’t often consider right, everyone.

Dr Rad 53:35Well, definitely, as you said, the Spartacus slave revolt does manage to last for a couple of years. And therefore, we know that there are women part as part of this collective that have gathered behind Spartacus and the other slave leaders. It is certainly not out of the question that people are having sex, women are getting pregnant women are giving birth, you know, like, it’s not another question that that is happening,

Katharine Huemoeller 54:01Or that families joined it to begin with, because, you know, we know that what’s happening on these agricultural estates that, you know, although are the writers tend to talk mostly about enslavement on these estates? You know, historians have done work already to reveal that women were absolutely there. And children were absolutely there. They’re just not the focus of the agricultural treatises. Right. But so, you know, in that case, are they you know, what is their relationship to these revolts as the rebels move through? Are they joining? Are they assisting their owners in hiding them, right? They have to make choices essentially, there’s no way to stay neutral. And I think you know, that that is that does come out of the narrative ancient narratives, right? There’s a story in the Spartan revolt where the slave rebels enter a town and it talks about how many in the town were sympathetic allies to the slaves and basically people had to make a choice whether they were going to reveal where their masters were hiding or you know, help them hide right it it was not On a possibility to remain neutral. Yeah, then we have to think okay, so then what is the experience or revolt like for all these people?

Dr Rad 55:06Yeah. And that’s that’s something that has was toyed with in there’s actually there were actually two Spartacus movies that were going to be made based on two Spartacus novels that came out around the same time or early 20th century. So we had the one by how fast which becomes the Kirk Douglas movie and then we’ve got the one by Arthur Koestler, which was meant to be made into a Spartacus film called the gladiators, but didn’t end up happening because of character, Douglas’ project. But in there’s an interesting crossover with these, which is some of the stuff that I’ve looked at where the director of Spartacus 1960s to cook Douglas protect Stanley Kubrick became interested in the novel by Arthur Koestler, which was meant to be the basis of the other film. So there’s all sorts of weird crossovers between them. But certainly, in the novels in the various versions of the films, there are scenes that were toyed with about the slave men having conversations about, look, these women and children and old people is slowing us down. Like what are we going to do about this? And so they have toyed with these sorts of questions about how do you actually deal with a revolt? And certainly there, there certainly were going to be scenes and whether other movie, I can’t actually remember which one at the moment, I’m pretty sure it was Spartacus, 1960, where they actually had conflicts between the slave leaders over the question of whether they actually just welcome anybody or whether they only welcome those who can fight.

Dr G 56:28So thinking about this situation for the slave revolt and their organisation? Isn’t this presumably just as problematic fit any kind of armed force, like logistics in the ancient world depends on the people. And you’ve always got this sort of, presumably entourage that has men and women, in addition to the fighters themselves, in which case, you possibly if you’re on a really significant campaign, there may be births involved there as well. And it’s like an armed forces, not just dudes wandering around with their swords out just waiting to reach the battlefield, I don’t think and so this logistics issue that the slaves are facing is presumably the same kind of logistical issue that the Roman army proper might also be facing conceivably in different points in time,

Dr Rad 57:20I think. So I think the difference is that obviously, the Roman army is supposed to be helped by the state, you know, they’ve got this additional backup of baby, maybe they’re helping with food supply, depending on where they’re fighting, of course. But logistically, there’s like backup, whereas I suppose for a slave rebel force, they’re constantly having to look out for potential attack people turning on them. And I guess they’re not necessarily going to have like a bunch of trained fighters, whereas the Roman army presumably has a reasonable amount of men who have seen battle or have been trained,

Dr G 57:59and maybe not supply lines, you know, just kind of a wandering force.

Katharine Huemoeller 58:04I think you’re right, though. I think you’re right, that that that is an issue, because, you know, there is quite a lot of concern about camp followers called, and, you know, marriage bans, right, like there is a there is there are attempts throughout human history to sort of control outside of the army and like concerns about that slowing them down and messing with discipline as well.

Dr Rad 58:25Yeah. And I think to be fair, although I’m, I’m really speaking off the cuff here, because it’s been a little while since I’ve looked over my material. But I have a feeling that part of the arguments, and at least one of the things they imagined was actually about, do we accept fighters. So we’re sick of accepting agricultural workers, whether they’re men or women who are coming to join us, because they imagine that there’s, you know, a core group of gladiators who know how to fight. And so I think it was partly about that some of the time or their training then their gender or their age. But they also played with those questions, obviously, of children and the elderly, and women in particular, slowing people down. But yeah, I mean,

Katharine Huemoeller 59:13that is true to the ancient sources, too. And that the way slavers thought about women was as a way to actually attach men to the estate to reduce the chances of rebellion. Women were thought of as like instruments in that way to you know, have control that men would be less likely to revolt if they have wives if they have children. Right. So the agricultural writers are very attuned to that dynamic. And I think that’s one reason that they don’t conceive of women as participating in the revolt because they’re supposed to be doing the opposite, right?

Dr Rad 59:47Yeah, exactly.

Dr G 59:49You were supposed to save us from a vote.

Dr Rad 59:53Yeah, exactly. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Obviously, this could be an entire episode in itself because Varinia is endlessly fascinating, or the character of Spartacus, his wife is endlessly fascinating. She’s had many, many different names, and many, many iterations where she had no name at all.

Dr G 1:00:13I suspect it’s probably a good time to wrap up. So we’ve got one final question. So when we were talking about you, in the introduction, we noted that you have a background that’s not just in academia, which is, you know, cool and interesting. You know, some people have a very straight path, and some people don’t. And so, you know, the paths into these sorts of things, I think, are really fascinating. And we’re interested in your work in the nonprofit sector, and also how that might have impacted the direction you took when you came back into academia?

Katharine Huemoeller 1:00:47Yeah, absolutely. I left university unsure what I wanted to do. But knowing that I was passionate about reproductive justice in particular, and gender equity. And so I worked for a few years in the nonprofit world, working on contemporary issues. And it didn’t end up being what I wanted to do long term. But it definitely informed my interest in the ancient world. So when I decided to go back to graduate school, it took a little while before I could combine these interests, of course, you know, not in Greek lit survey so much. But eventually, when I got to, you know, choose my own research projects, I wanted to do something that touches on these these long issues of gender inequities, and in particular, reproductive injustice. And so I, I became really interested in Roman slavery, and the path and currently I’m most interested in particular in the hereditary nature of Roman slavery, and the fact that it goes through the maternal line. And I’m interested in how that shapes the experiences of enslaved women, what kinds of sexual and reproductive exploitation that leads to. That’s why I’m so fascinated by for example, right? That this idea that in the movie, Spartacus is supposed to be born of an enslaved woman that’s like the opening lines of the 1960 movie, right? Or is that a woman I think it’s something like a woman gave birth to a child, and that increased her masters a state and that child was Spartacus. And, and you know that it’s fascinating to me that that’s in this movie, because that’s actually not really in the scholarship. We don’t we don’t talk that much about the importance of maternal dissent in slavery. So that’s absolutely shaped by my experience in the nonprofit world. And by thinking about how legal systems shape inequities in society, and and also what people do within, you know, the actors within legal systems, how to slavers, choose slaving strategies, knowing that women will bear enslaved children.

Dr G 1:02:50It’s really interesting, isn’t it? Because just thinking about what you’re saying at the moment about the maternal line, because we know that’s the easiest way to measure a line. And it’s like, you know, a woman grows, and then all of a sudden, it’s like, oh, yeah, and there’s a cord attached for a little while. You’re like, yep, that that one definitely came from me. Exactly. Yeah.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:03:10In Roman law, it’s the the only the mother is ever truly known.

Dr G 1:03:16Yeah, exactly. And so it’s like, it’s like, there’s never really any doubt about the mother, and yet Roman society and many, so societies, like from a Western perspective that sort of grown out from that, a very patriarchal, they’re like, No, we’ve always got to know who the dude is. And it’s like, do though, because it’s like, really easy, really easy if we just decided that the

Dr Rad 1:03:36difficult thing,

Katharine Huemoeller 1:03:37Yeah, that’s why they’re so anxious about protecting about women’s chastity, right? Because that is the way so for Roman citizens status is transmitted through the line of the Father, and that creates paternal power and, and legitimate air. And so for anyone who’s not a citizen, including enslaved people, but not only enslaved people, which status transmitted through the mother, but that, you know, that is what comparatively looking at slavery over time and space. That’s not the only pattern of transmission. It’s the one that was used during the TransAtlantic slave system, slave trade. And so it’s one that’s very, I think, present in most of our minds, but actually, sometimes status is passed through the parent of highest status, or lowest status, or whatever household they’re in, or there’s lots of possible patterns of status transmission, and they all had rippling effects on the experience of being enslaved. Yeah, definitely.

Dr G 1:04:31I think it’s really fascinating because it’s kind of like there is always in operation, a two tiered system where there is the perceived status quo of patriarchy as like the right way from for being free and things like this. And then there’s all of the other systems that will fall under that which can be classified within slave strategies, and to see that the maternal line comes out so free Currently there and I was like, Oh, guys, you know, the real answer here is just, you know, patriarchy, maybe you could put that to the side a little bit, and you make it really easy for yourselves. But it obviously goes against something that’s really quite ingrained in Roman society and how they understand themselves, it’s just not possible for them to do something like that.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:05:18Yeah. And what’s so what’s so interesting about it is that they see transmission to the maternal line as what is natural, that’s part of the you scan to my natural law, that’s what everyone does. But what Roman citizens do, right, the special privilege of Roman citizens is to have status transmitted through the Father. So that is like wrapped up in what it means to be a citizen and what and all these you know, special, this special treatment and special privileges you get with being a citizen, that’s a key one, it’s this transmission through the Father. And that’s kind of like, unnatural, it’s like part of Roman Civil lots, you know?

Dr G 1:05:53Yeah, yeah. And it is obviously built into the all of the sort of adoption laws that are at play within the elite classes as well, where it’s like, well, we can we can rearrange your male line a little bit to make things a little bit easier here. And that’s sort of on theory legal.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:06:10Exactly. But I mean, getting back to that, remember that crazy revolt at Volsini right, the idea that the slaves are, you know, wanting to reform the system of inheritance, like, to me that speaks to the significance of status transmission, right, this idea that, like they can decide who their heirs will be. That’s, you know, that is a privilege of, again, we’re two’s to Roman citizen masculinity. That’s, it’s just kind of wrapped in everywhere you look, all of a sudden you see it significance, I think,

Dr Rad 1:06:40I guess it must be particularly interesting for you to be considering these issues at the moment, given the recent developments, which have been highly publicised all over the world in terms of control over reproductive rights in America.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:06:53Yeah, absolutely. This, I would say that my present day informs this work in many different ways and informs my work because while I’m been writing this book, I’ve had two children. And so I’ve thought a lot about what it means to be a mother, how we can, you know, think about that over time and space, what reproduction looks like in different political contexts. Now, being in Canada, I’m in a very different political context than how I grew up. In the US. I’m very relieved not to be there right now, with the current climate and the current loss of reproductive autonomy for women* there, it’s hard for me to imagine myself being there or putting my children, my two daughters there, right, bringing them there. And so that all of that informed the way I look at the past. [* Dr. Huemoeller wishes to make a correction to what she said during the recording: people of all genders, not only women, are being stripped of reproductive autonomy in the US.]

Dr Rad 1:07:45Definitely, well, we might wrap up on that note, but we hope very much that by the time we talk to you the next time because I’m sure that our research interests will cross paths again, that maybe the situation let’s call it over there has changed so that people have more rights rather than less.

Dr G 1:08:02Thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with us. We really appreciate it and such a fascinating topic of conversation.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:08Thank you.

Dr Rad 1:08:09Absolutely. Before we before we sign off, would you like to say anything about publications or where people can find you and your work?

Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:17The best place to find me would be at my university website. So University of British Columbia, and you can search my name. I have a few recent articles out on these topics, if you’re interested in one that’s I think, particularly accessible is in the Journal of Roman studies. And it follows one woman’s story, one woman who was enslaved and then freed to marry her owner, and then ended up leaving him of sort of form of rebellion and was cursed for it. So it’s a really interesting personal story that I think helps you maybe sort of connect on an emotional level to the past, so that would be the one I would I would recommend.

Dr Rad 1:08:54Well, I think we’ve got our next podcast collaboration topic. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Katharine Huemoeller 1:08:59Thank you.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

We leave behind the outraged censors of 434 BCE and move forward into some troubled domestic times for Rome. The solution? Fashion, darling. White togas are out, so we suggest you find something appropriate to wear for this one.

Episode 132 – The White Album

Problems Plague the Romans

433 BCE begins like many other years: irate tribunes, obstinate patricians. However, political disputes come to a screeching halt when an epidemic breaks out. How will Rome handle this crisis? The past decade has not been easy, and now a plague? Perhaps a temple will solve everything.

Image of the remains of the Temple of Apollo Medicus Sosianus. Courtesy of Anthony Majanlahti via Flickr.

The White Album

In 432 BCE, the tribunes of the plebs are feeling well enough to start complaining. Why have no plebeians been elected to office? They pushed for the creation of military tribunes with consular power so that plebeians could hold the most elite positions in the state, but no one is electing them into power.

The tribunes decide to put forward a law that would ban the wearing of the toga candida. This garment was an especially white toga, worn by those seeking political office. This is an odd move so early in the Republic, but Livy assures us that the law was passed.

Is the banning of white togas enough to get a plebeian into power? Join us to find out!

Things to Listen Our For:

• The Flaccinator
• Apollo Medicus
• Books of prophecy
• Secret meetings
• White togas

Looking to catch up the decade of the 430s and where this chaos all began? Jump back in time to the drama of 439 BCE with Episode 127: The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.

Our Players 433 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• M. Fabius (Q. f. M. n.) Vibulanus (Pat) Cos. 442
• M. Folius – f. – n. Flaccinator (Pat)
• L. Sergius C. f. C. n. Fidenas (Pat) Cos. 437, 429, Mil. Tr. c. p. 424, 418

Our Players 432 BCE

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• L. Pinarius – f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat)
• L. Furius Sp. f. – n. Medullinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 425, 420
• Sp. Postumius (Sp.?f. A.? n.) Albus (Regillensis) (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.58.1, 12.60.1
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.25.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Chase, G. D. 1897. ‘The Origin of Roman Praenomina’ Harvard Studies in Classical Philology 8: 103-184.
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 

Sound Effects

Fesliyan Studios, Orange Free Sounds and BBC Sound Effects. Thanks to the highly talented Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

Where can you buy our book?

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Met-852x1024.jpg" alt="Headless statue of man wearing a toga" class="wp-image-4217">

This is the artefact unedited from the top of this post. Marble statue of a togatus (man wearing a toga), 1st century CE. While this sculpture is from a little later than the action of this episode, the draping of the toga gives us an insight into what the early republicans may have worn as well.Image courtesy of the Met Museum.

Automated Transcript

Generated by Otter AI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

patrician, plebeians, power, plague, vote, romans, rome, military, people, consoles, tributes, year, bit, magistrates, temple, episode, candidates, reference, etruscans, flags

SPEAKERS

Dr Rad, Dr G

Dr Rad  00:16

Welcome to The Partial Historians,

Dr G  00:20

we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad  00:23

Everything from the political scandals, the love of ours, the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G  00:34

And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad  00:43

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your host, Dr. AD and joining me in cyberspace. Ooh, woohoo.

Dr G  01:14

It’s me. It’s ducted Gee, yeah,

Dr Rad  01:17

uncharacteristically not recording together together.

Dr G  01:21

It does feel weird. Hopefully that doesn’t influence the way that anybody feels about our charisma together.

Dr Rad  01:27

Never. We are full of charisma, uniqueness, nerve and talent. So Dr. G, the last time that we met, we had possibly one of the most confusing years to deal with. So let’s step back in time and do a brief recap of 434 BCE in ancient Roman history, but the fingers out the fingers, I don’t think a trigger to translate in the podcast media.

Dr G  01:54

It’s really disappointing. All right, I did my fingers to suggested we’ll go back in time, but you’ll just have to imagine that for yourselves listeners for 34 BCE, what a time to be alive. It was chaos, I have to say, That’s my summation

Dr Rad  02:08

in terms of who was a magistrate and who was not, it was very difficult to figure out because we had pretty much everything that the Romans could possibly throw at us. consoles,

Dr G  02:19

we had two pairs of consoles. So that’s a lot of consoles, way more than anybody needs. We had a set of military tributes with controller power, there was about three of those, and at least one dictator, maybe more dictators.

Dr Rad  02:34

We did indeed, it was very confusing. And there seems to be because there was a lot of chaos in terms of what was actually what the Romans were actually dealing with. Was there a threat from a neighbouring city wasn’t there. It all seemed to build up to something that never quite happened.

Dr G  02:54

And this also seems to tie into like broader issues that our sources our written sources are having with like dealing with the weird chronology that they’ve ended up with because they want every year to exist independently of each other, but they’re not sure where things started. And some of their calculations are now starting to crop up as mistake. Yeah, definitely. But certainly, there’s been some issues with the Etruscans. It didn’t seem to come too much last time, but it seems to be why we had so many magistrates. Yeah, there’s some issues and there’s this ongoing situation that Rome has at this stage with all of their neighbours, and there’s a lot of grumpiness, and there’s a lot of switching of sides. And Rome stamp sets feet and this year, it just has, like everybody had a turn. It was a carousel of magistrates. Everybody took a ride on the magisterial horse as it were,

Dr Rad  03:46

which is funny because of them were actually the Magister Equisetum

Dr G  03:52

Yeah. Gotta ride that horse. Somebody’s got to do it. We got a whole roll for

Dr Rad  03:57

that now. So master of the horse is the pattern there just in case you didn’t catch my excellent Latin. So with that in mind, the fact that 434 was building up to be something spectacular and then really fizzled out. I think it’s time to journey forward in our narrative history of ancient Rome into 433 Hopefully with livie and Dionysius our main sources by our side, but perhaps not

Dr G  04:24

Oh, you’ve got big dreams I have to die this is a harlequin so this is definitely missing.

Dr Rad  04:30

Yeah, well journey for which just leave you by our side onwards Libby.

Dr G  04:36

Libby is carrying a lot of weight

Dr Rad  05:00

I’m for 33 BC who are our magistrates this year? Dr. J.

Dr G  05:07

Look, as far as I can tell you, we’ve only got military tributes with concealer powder. That is what I have as well. But just your way I’m gonna tell you all about Yeah, like

Dr Rad  05:17

I’m here for it because I can see that one of them is a Fabian. Oh, fabulous.

Dr G  05:26

Fabulous Fabian. And yet, for me, not the most interesting of the three, but we’ll get into that. So we’ve got Marcus Fabius, some of Quintus, grandson of Marcus villainous a patrician previously consoling for 40 to be about 10 years. All right, it’s time for another tour around the block of power and then

Dr Rad  05:49

we’ve got a new name, which is a very unfortunate name. I’m gonna say

Dr G  05:53

I’m into this guy. I’m ready for it. This is my new favourite markers foliaceus Son of whoever grandson of whoever FLAC and

Dr Rad  06:03

I think for people to really capture how awful the name is. I think we need to say more more English so fascinator. I am the flat senator. I live ladies on satisfied all over the city.

Dr G  06:19

I find yourself last night. I love the way that you said we need to pronounce it more English and then immediately went into a German

Dr Rad  06:29

You had me this off. See the saucy Oh, I should Oh, I shouldn’t say too soft to see. Yeah, exactly.

Dr G  06:37

It was too much too much. One for the flag. inators right there. So the name flax and ADA. I looked into this because I loved it so much. And I had a good giggle. It comes from flax, EO to flag. So potentially this name could be interpreted as somebody who makes flags or somebody who puts up flags. Okay, somebody who flags things.

Dr Rad  07:01

I was gonna say, I don’t really associate the Romans with flags. I mean, like, yeah,

Dr G  07:05

family line is not going to last for very long. That’s the other spoiler that’s

Dr Rad  07:10

that’s even more puzzling, because I feel like flags would be more necessary later.

Dr G  07:16

Yes, but But I think maybe the sexual pun on Flesner. NATO was maybe too much for a Roman family to handle. And so they’ve left the name.

Dr Rad  07:25

Understandable. They are very big on masculinity. Yeah,

Dr G  07:29

yeah. And this, this doesn’t bode well for poor old markers now. And finally, we have Lucia circus, son of Gaius, grandson of guys for DNS previously consoler for 37. Yeah, I was

Dr Rad  07:44

gonna say now this is the guy that got the name from the whole conflict overfeeding a that colony, that treacherously turned to the Etruscans.

Dr G  07:54

Yeah, so this is interesting as well. So I did this is one of my rabbit holes for these episodes, it’s basically all they have is these three names, and nothing else. I started looking in to what’s going on with Roman names, because that’s always like part of how you can build a narrative out around them. And so we’ve got villainous, and this name is thought to be a topping mimic kind of cognomen. So it’s based on a place I was gonna say,

Dr Rad  08:23

I feel like I have heard something close to that before. And I don’t know whether it’s in the name or the place.

Dr G  08:30

Yeah, and to be honest, we’re not sure where the place that’s connected to this name would be located. Okay. So that’s a bit of a problem for us, Flack and NATO, we’ve already had that reference back to flat out. Yeah. And for DNS, as you know, is that connection to feed and a, which is this ancient sort of Latin city that the Romans have tried to claim for quite some time, entered into some negotiations with and have recently been in the bad books road because they threw their lot in with the Etruscans, which Rome was not satisfied about now. So we’ve got this sense that Rome is drawing in people from all around the local region, essentially. And that’s part of what we can say with these names.

Dr Rad  09:13

I’ve definitely not heard the name foliaceus before

Dr G  09:17

Yeah, and this seems to be a really small gains. I did a little bit of research on this one as well. So Marcus folios flax inator, as I like to call

Dr Rad  09:27

that if I can, I was gonna say please, yeah. This is one case where you do not want to drop the

Dr G  09:33

No no, I don’t the flax inator himself. He comes from against portfolios. This is a really small gains. It doesn’t produce many family lines, and we don’t know much about it. So it seems to not last beyond the early republic. So I’m fascinated to see if they come up again.

Dr Rad  09:49

I think I know why they didn’t last very long.

Dr G  09:54

Have you been have trouble keeping it up as it were? It’s hard to produce. It’s hard to continue the line when everything is So flat.

Dr Rad  10:02

Oh, I have to move on for this thing. All right. Well, I do have a little bit of detail for you about 433 Not a tonne, but I do have a little bit. So the tribunes of the plebs, they haven’t been super painful for some time. So they decided that for 33 is their moment to reassert their awfulness, at least, I believe, at least as far as Patricia narratives are concerned. So basically, they are blocking consular elections from happening. They’re absolutely adamant that it’s not going to happen. And they were being such an obstacle that the Romans were close to having to move to an interregnum. Now there’s a word I didn’t think I’d say at this point in the Republic.

Dr G  10:48

Is that even something that you can do if you’re not planning to hire a king?

Dr Rad  10:52

I guess I mean, I guess it’s that idea of, you know, not having someone holding that ultimate magisterial power.

Dr G  11:01

We’re unable to run the elections in time. And now we need a holding pattern until we can get the elections off the ground.

Dr Rad  11:07

I mean, and maybe it was just, I mean, look, this could just be living here. I mean, let’s face it. But it could also be the fact that they kind of know that this is, this is something that’s an option, I guess. They’re kind of like, well, we need to have something happening somewhere. We can’t have consoles, or we don’t want to have military attributes with constantly power, then this is really our only way out of this situation without having again. So maybe that maybe it’s that anywho as you might suspect, eventually it turns to military treatments with consular power. So that’s why we have those three guys with a spectacular array of names. The aim being that they would obviously be a poor being elected. I mean, presumably, that’s why the tribunes are being so painful, and trying to make sure that it’s not consoles, because they want to finally get a plug in, in office strategy. But then, once again, they’re all freaking patricians.

Dr G  12:10

I was gonna say, I mean, if that was the goal, surely they’ve been watered because every man on this list of military tributes with Coachella power is a patrician i

Dr Rad  12:19

there and it always seems to obviously, add some sort of justification to this idea that the plebeians really aren’t equipped to do the job. And the and the plebeians themselves know it, because they’re not voting for them. Apparently, they Well,

Dr G  12:36

I don’t know, I don’t think they ever get a real chance to to be honest, we know the voting system is pretty rigged in a chip room.

Dr Rad  12:42

It is and this is actually but I think that in in the way that it’s represented the way that live he throws out these little comments every now and then it is like the plebeians themselves aren’t voting for plebeians, that they are acknowledging the patricians to be superior candidates not in this case, specifically doesn’t specifically say that about this case, but in previous elections, this is kind of what he’s intimated.

Dr G  13:04

It’s really Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? Because I feel like I mean, Libby is not a Roman is he’s have? Well, I’m just I’m just trying to put this into context. You know, he’s not from a bit of, yeah, he’s not from Rome. He’s a bit of an outsider, he probably considers himself to be sort of like Romanesque in particular ways. Like obviously, HE SPEAKS LATIN and things like that. But it’s not like he is of the elite. And his investment in the elite narrative is really quite interesting to me. Well, he

Dr Rad  13:34

does hang out with Agasa. So yeah,

Dr G  13:37

yeah, maybe I should go back in time as Livi.

Dr Rad  13:40

Well, it would definitely be a way of getting an end with the imperial family, and you’d get to help Claudius with his history. So Oh, I like history. Yeah, exactly. Any. Now this is, obviously you’re shaping up to be yet another chapter in this so called conflict of the orders, which is apparently plaguing room throughout the centuries. But as luck would have it, an epidemic breaks out. And everyone’s very distracted.

Dr G  14:05

Wow. I mean, there’s a you just have so much more detail. I mean, when I have no source material, I’m really just excited to see where the story goes. I’m like, really an epidemic, no hints at

Dr Rad  14:14

all. And even better than that, they decided that they’re going to give a temple to Apolo because of his association, obviously, with, you know, like plague and medicine and that kind of stuff. Now, it’s a little tricky to verify this archaeologically, apparently, in that this temple, if it did, indeed exist at this time, was subsequently damaged in later attacks by people from the Gaulish ethnicity. Oh, yeah. And it’s not until later that it’s actually restored. But we’re talking about a location somewhere between the circus, Flaminia us and the forum. Holy Torian. Yeah, which is At this time outside if the primary and because a polar is not a room and God,

Dr G  15:07

per se, I was gonna say, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah,

Dr Rad  15:09

absolutely. So there is some Archaea there are some archaeological remains, but none that can verify going back this early with this particular cult. However, the name associated with this particular Temple is apparently a polo Medicus, which does seem to indicate that it was a health concern.

Dr G  15:35

Yeah, they’re definitely leaning into being like, it’s not just any version of Apollo that we need to satisfy right now in order to deal with this plague. It is literally medical Apollo, please, please solve this for us put

Dr Rad  15:47

away the sunshine pal. Get out your medical kit, something along those lines. So yes, that’s just a little side note. So this all came about? Because do Unviersity or the two men consulted the civil line books? So there’s an amazing collection that the Romans have various tidbits or calls, what have you, where they could have had a lot more, but they destroyed a lot because one of the Kings was being a little bit difficult about the price and haggling and not doing very well. But anyway, they consulted these books of prophecy, to try and figure out how indeed, they could appease the gods, because of course, that’s the explanation for a plague of this magnitude. And this is obviously where we get the erection of a temple of like, this is the solution to our problem. And it’s possible that the cult came from Koumei. So maybe, sir,

Dr G  16:41

okay, the Apollo came from Kuma Yeah, okay. Oh, that’s an interesting sort of parallel because isn’t that where the some of the symbols are as well?

Dr Rad  16:50

I think so. IB is definitely in that magnet Croatia kind of area, isn’t it? Yeah. Anywho. Unfortunately, the temple didn’t quite do the trick. And many people still died. Yeah.

Dr G  17:05

Look, I mean, I’ll put forward Well, I think is like the most reasonable question in these kinds of situations, because this kind of thing is going to happen a lot in ancient Rome, where stuff goes wrong, and they’re like, You know what, we need a new temple to the gods. But when it’s the midst of a plague, or a pestilence, who actually is healthy enough to engage in the building project, and I suspect that what might be happening here is that they make the official dedication for the space where they’re gonna build it, yes. And maybe hope for the best that things will clear up so that they can actually finish the projects, because they’re all quite ill right now. And they need some help.

Dr Rad  17:43

You are correct. It was in fact, dedicated for 31. So sometime after 433, yeah, because basically, many people are dying, it doesn’t seem to matter. If you’re in the city or the country, you’re equally likely to get sick and die from this particular plague. And it was something that was affecting cattle as well as humans.

Dr G  18:03

This sounds like one of those ones that’s been doing the rounds for a little while, because this does not sound surprising from other plagues that we’ve talked about in recent time now.

Dr Rad  18:12

Well, we aren’t we we know. And we’ve seen obviously, in our own times, that when people live in close contact with animals, there are going to be diseases that transfer from one to the other. Eventually, it’s just going to happen, particularly if you don’t respect the relationship that humans perhaps should have with the natural environment. But they’re not saying that they brought it on themselves. I think this is just one of those things. But yeah,

Dr G  18:41

ouch row.

Dr Rad  18:43

That was more commentary on our own time than in Roman times. They don’t understand how disease works in quite the same complexity. So

Dr G  18:51

no, no, fair enough.

Dr Rad  18:52

Now, of course, as often happens with a plague, and you’ve got so many people dying, and people are dying all over the place, not just in the city, there is a genuine concern that this is going to lead to a food shortage because, of course, farmers are amongst the sick and amongst the dead. So the Romans start, they start searching for grey and then trying to be proactive. We’ve seen what happens when they’re not. A few years ago, we had a bit of a disaster where we ended up having a nacho King, and that nobody wants that again. Doritos have pulled this sponsorship. We don’t want this to happen again.

Dr G  19:26

No more of those upstart plebeians do a good job on the grade supply. We can’t have that. So

Dr Rad  19:31

they’re searching around in various areas like Etruria, the pump teen District, which is possibly near the old skins Koumei again, and Sicily looking for corn,

Dr G  19:43

the breadbasket as it were,

Dr Rad  19:45

and this is kind of where the year wraps up, to be honest, because everyone’s kind of in a bit of a low point. So there’s no debate about who’s going to be in charge for Are they just like, You know what, let’s just stick with military Tribune’s with consular power seems to leave Is hassle for everyone. Nobody has the energy to get into a massive fight at this point in time.

Dr G  20:06

Although it is interesting that up until now we’ve been seeing the military tribunes with consular power coming in, when there seems to be a situation where Rome is navigating problems on multiple fronts. Like they’ve got issues with many of their neighbours, and they’re like, We need more than just consoles, we need more people who can lead with Imperium.

Dr Rad  20:28

I’ll agree and agree. I think this is just more evidence that this is not necessarily actually to do with the struggle of the artists.

Dr G  20:36

Oh, yeah, definitely. And also that maybe the whole shift in focus across the year has gone from like, let’s deal with everybody who we can’t stand around us right now to Oh no, it’s a plague.

Dr Rad  20:48

It’s when placates that you realise how much you depend on your neighbours?

Dr G  20:52

Yeah, I don’t know if the pontine marshes are going to really produce great and every time they so they’re fighting with the volsky like every five years like come on, guys.

Dr Rad  21:02

Hey, you guys are looking for corn where you can find it.

Dr G  21:07

Is it here?

Dr Rad  21:09

Alright, so that takes us into 432 in my account

Dr G  21:14

All right. All right. I’ll turn over my notes for 32 guest who’s missing for this year consoles die and SES and pelican.

Dr Rad  21:23

Yes, yes, of course, of course. Data disappearing acts but nonetheless, I feel like you’re going to tell me who the magistrates ah,

Dr G  21:31

I definitely will and I’ll go into their names because that’s that’s my current rabbit hole of choice. When I have no information, we have military champions with concealer power. There are three of them. We start with Lucia Pienaar. Yes, Malmo Cenas. And again, possibly Rufus as well in there. So mammas scenesse is considered to be one of these names that is derived from the maracas,

Dr Rad  22:03

which makes sense because I’m pretty sure we had a guy that had both those names, or maybe they switched interchangeably between names, but I remember struggling with both.

Dr G  22:12

It’s possible. The source that I was reading, the scholar I was reading today about this kind of stuff seems to classify messiness as one of those sorts of additional endings. The I notice ending as part of the denotation of being adopted.

Dr Rad  22:28

And of course,

Dr G  22:31

but to be clear, we’re talking about the adoption from the members family. Yes, it’s so it’s representing that this was their birth family like

Dr Rad  22:42

Gaius Octavius became Octavia Arness once he was adopted.

Dr G  22:47

Yes. So it’s like this reference back to his birth family and just letting you know he’s sitting in a different family now but this is where he actually came from.

Dr Rad  22:54

And that is a reference to Augustus just in case you guys aren’t super familiar with all Augustus as many identities

Dr G  23:01

which is fair enough, you know, you had a lot you had a lot and Merck is going further down this rabbit hole Merkers itself is actually an Austin pronoun or pray pray Newman, I should say. It starts out in Austin as a pre Newman and then shifts into a cognomen when it comes into Latin.

Dr Rad  23:19

Interesting. Okay, well, that makes sense. We know that the Romans had actually quite a decent amount of contact with the Oscars.

Dr G  23:25

That’s my little colour for the first character. So that’s Lucia Spinnery. Usman members seen us Rufus. A Patricia. Guy number one. Military Tribune with constant power number two, Lucia is furious. Yeah, son of spurious, fury. grand son of somebody, Mel de Linus fuses, also a patrician. So midday, Linus, I hear you ask the question. I’m here to help. Don’t worry. I’ve

Dr Rad  24:00

actually mentioned this name before, I’m pretty sure.

Dr G  24:02

Yeah, this is I think, I think we’ve come across a couple of these guys. This is a cognomen that is also derived from place. So it’s top endemic in nature. And it’s a reference to medulla them or medulla Jung, which is at place a little city north of the NAO River, and also near to Alba longa. So it’s sort of, it’s really quite close to road when you sort of do the triangulation on all of those things. Yeah. exact location on. Excellent. And we also have spurious pursued miss. Albus red gel lenses. Okay. Our third patrician that’s a three out of three for Patricia Yeah, I’m not surprised. So Albus? You know you you know, you want to take a guess you know, you do.

Dr Rad  24:54

I gotta say it has something to do with Alba longer.

Dr G  24:58

I thought you’d go Harry Potter, but

Dr Rad  24:59

how Well, I’m trying to not mention Harry Potter.

Dr G  25:03

Fair enough. Fair enough. Albus here is sort of a reference to white hair. It seems

Dr Rad  25:09

like a collector JK Rowling in that respect in other respects,

Dr G  25:14

not in other respects. And read your lenses. Again another topic nimic cognomen. From Regulus the famous late Regulus which for anybody who’s forgotten sight of a great military victory for the Romans in 496 BCE, and

Dr Rad  25:32

I’m not surprised to have you mentioned this because the post steamy I were associated with that battle. Therefore, obviously, it makes sense that they have that as a cognomen. But also it is going to come up again in this in this episode, I think there’s gonna be

Dr G  25:49

Oh dear lord, it’s gonna be Yeah, oh, that’s gonna be a nice surprise for me that because literally all I have is these names and these ancient references back to me like who remember that time in 496, where they had a battle by a lake. So we think that Regulus is near modern for Scotty. So that’s that kind of hilly region to the south east of Rome. Right. Okay. Lovely spot. There’s a leak somewhere there that seems to be connected to this.

Dr Rad  26:18

Okay, cool. All right. Well, as tends to happen in the animalistic nature of our accounts. Now that we’re in a new year, Dr. G. It seems like the disease has started to ease up, play go wow, playground the last a year really?

Dr G  26:34

Oh, look, it just comes in 12 month waves guys. Yeah,

Dr Rad  26:37

I mean, like, it’s obviously still like lingering. But it’s definitely not as bad as it was in 433. So good times ahead. And because the Romans learnt from the episode with a natural King, if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you’re gonna have to go back and check out that episode. They are boyscout prepared. No salmon boy. Yeah,

Dr G  26:57

they got the grain. They need it. Yeah,

Dr Rad  26:58

they’re totally fine. No famine. So all is looking well.

Dr G  27:03

Very nice. Very nice. It sounds like they’re off to a great start. Yes,

Dr Rad  27:06

indeed. However, as tends to happen, once things start to come together domestically, everything starts to fall apart externally. was. So there counsels being held amongst the vol skins and the aqueous. So yes, there’s ancient enemies of our magnificent city of Rome. And they are talking of war war, you say? Well, well, well, I know war is on the horizon, I’m

Dr G  27:35

afraid Oh, chat. We’re going to get them take down the Romans one by one. Yes,

Dr Rad  27:39

exactly. So it seems that they’ve decided that they’re going to postpone for a year, and that there’s going to be no counsel to meet again, before that date. We’re just going to put it off. But unfortunately, one of the participants from the trust fund side of things, they was not pleased with the decision not at all, because they felt they’re still very much at risk after the hill feed and airfare Don’t you know, Fair enough, fair enough, old chap and dead, so definitely was on the horizon. But for now, it seems to have passed. And therefore I will stop talking in this British accent. Even though it’s very hard to stop once you start.

Dr G  28:23

I think you should just do the whole episode like that. I think it’s good. Are you telling me Have I understood correctly that they is like I’m gonna pick up the slack for what’s the AKI in the volsky I getting together but not making a decision to actually go to war this year?

Dr Rad  28:38

Well, okay, so basically, the moleskin Za, Koreans have this council meeting and it seems to be held at the Shrine of full thomna. And this is where they’re talking about war, but they’re not ready for war just yet. The Etruscan seem to have joined them, at least in some capacity. As we know, the Etruscans are a very large group of people at this point in time. So I don’t know if everybody in Korea that’s part of this meeting, but certainly they are still feeling paranoid because even though I know it’s probably seems like a while ago, now that we were talking about the whole feed nothing it’s not that long ago, actually. And therefore, it’s only about a year and a bit ago, and so they just really nervous. They’re like, if I could take out feed now where next?

Dr G  29:24

We’re gonna fall like dominoes. That’s gonna be communism, or livery.

Dr Rad  29:27

Anyway, so yeah, basically, war is lingering in the background. But I digress. I need to return to room. So back in room, the attributes of the plebs, they’ve had to, you know, rein it in a little bit because of the whole plague thing. And particularly, nobody’s going to be interested in listening to them if they’re seeming agenda is just to gain more power for themselves, you know, or more accolades for themselves. But now, Dr. G, there seems to be peace. Ah,

Dr G  30:04

bring on the domestic chaos. Exactly.

Dr Rad  30:05

It’s time to strike the tribute and start having secret meetings at the houses of the tribunes of the plebs trying to keep everything very, very secret. They seemingly

Dr G  30:22

it’s made it into the history books, so they have not succeeded.

Dr Rad  30:26

That’s how you know you’ve really failed to keep a secret. If it’s recorded in a history, five hundreds,

Dr G  30:32

hundreds is Yeah, hundreds of years later, somebody noticed.

Dr Rad  30:36

Mostly their main issue seems to be that they’re very upset and aggravated because they feel like the plebeians don’t really respect them very much.

Dr G  30:47

Really, the tribune of the plebs don’t feel respected by the planet. Yes,

Dr Rad  30:50

because they keep getting military tributes with consular powers, like they’ve got that happening. And the last couple of years that has literally been the plan, and yet, no plebeians are being elected. See, I told you snarky little explanations from Livi about why there aren’t for the INS being elected. It’s not the fact that the system is literally stacked against them in terms of numbers, the way the votes are counted, and blah, blah, blah. No, no, it’s that the plebeians don’t respect their own kind.

Dr G  31:23

I say you can never be victorious when the enemy is coming from within. I don’t think though, that we’ve had a plebeian in this military tube unit.

Dr Rad  31:32

No, yeah, that’s their problem. That’s their problem. That’s the

Dr G  31:36

oh, well, no wonder there. And yeah, I mean, if I was a plebeian, I’d be outraged by now be like, Guys, you had one job, one job. But this

Dr Rad  31:44

is exactly this is what I mean about Levy’s explanation for why they haven’t been copied and selected tends to be that the patricians are just better candidates and the plebeians, therefore, vote for them, or whatever. And you can see it again here. The fact that the tribunes are being portrayed as being angry because the plebeians don’t respect them enough to get a puppy and magistrate elected, hello, doing not to remember the reforms of Servius Tullius. Back under days of the monarchy, the votes are counted, weirdly,

Dr G  32:18

they, they are. So like, just to give a quick overview of the weirdness of some of this vote counting structure, you’re basically put into groups that relate partly to your tribe. But then they’re also divided partly by your rank. And so what ends up happening is that you don’t all get to vote at once either you vote sequentially. And it’s not secret. It’s a secret ballot. Like many sorts of voting systems today, it’s all done in the open in sequence, and basically as first pass the post, so you only vote down to the point that there is a winner, and everybody can see you vote. So if you need to maintain certain networks, if you are being pressured in particular ways, if you got stuck in a dud voting group that you can’t get yourself out of one, you might not ever get to vote, because it’s never going to get down as far as you but also you need to show the right people that you’re voting the right way. And in this particular iteration of Roman history, as far as the latest sources like Libya and Dionysius of Halicarnassus, positioning it, the influences are wrestling with this patrician class. Absolutely. And it’s weird. Yeah, it’s weird, because we don’t. There’s lots of questions to be asked about, do we really have patricians right now, in like, you know, the fifth century BCE, we’re not sure. We don’t have good enough records to be able to, say one way or the other. But there does seem to be elite families and less elite families. And the tribune of the plebs is really working on the side of the people who are outside of the traditional elites.

Dr Rad  34:07

Yeah. And we can’t even say for certain that we really know how the voting works at this point of time, either. But I think it’s safe to say that the system seems to be rigged in favour of the powerful I know, either. Nobody was expecting that.

Dr G  34:25

We’re always fighting the same fight. That is the things who remember listeners, every generation of this, it’s always the same fight.

Dr Rad  34:32

Well, it actually reminds me if all we’re saying is true, which as I said, it might not be because there might be slight detail that have been lost over time or whatever, but it does give me strong vibes of like post Civil War America, you know, where technically, African American people have the right to vote, but because of systems of intimidation that are set up and because of power structures that have not been around advocated just because all of a sudden, African American people are no longer slaves but free. I mean, it’s still that idea of like voting being too intimidating for you to do, or people rigging it so that it’s difficult for you to do, or you having to behave a certain way to keep the power structures in your local area happy. I mean, it’s not the same. But that does remind me a little bit of that.

Dr G  35:24

Yeah, and I think for people living today, in certain areas of the US similar ideas would seem really resonant as well. There is a lot of issues around how you can vote, your freedom to vote, your capacity to get into the, into the spot where you can do it and your freedom to vote the way that you want to.

Dr Rad  35:45

Exactly, yeah. Whereas in Australia, it’s compulsory. So you have today there are

Dr G  35:50

pros and cons to that which we won’t go into right now.

Dr Rad  35:54

Any here now, not all the tributes are on this bandwagon, saying that it’s the plebeians fault for not having enough faith in them or whatever. That really is the patricians who are to blame, because they campaign so strongly for their own candidates, that the plebeians are swayed in their favour, because they’re either persuaded or threatened into voting for a patrician candidate, because they realise it’s in their best interests, either way to do so.

Dr G  36:28

I don’t know. I just think it’s a really nice guy.

Dr Rad  36:31

No, now this is something that’s very strange, but hang on for a second, and I’ll try and explain it. At this point. Apparently, the tribute is therefore suggested a lot, that no one should be allowed to whiten their toga to show themselves off to the public as a candidate. Now Livi mentioned specifically that there seems like a very inconsequential detail, but that it was a very, very bitter feud over this law at the time, and therefore he needs to mention it, because the tribune is apparently one, and they got this law. Now, for those of you who aren’t familiar with Roman fashion, this seems to be a reference to the toga Candida, which is where we get the word candidate from when we’re talking about political candidates or, you know, candidates for election. And the idea was that if you were running for magistracy, you would wear like a blindingly white toga so that everybody could see that you were indeed running for some sort of political position.

Dr G  37:33

I kind of love it. I mean, I don’t know what to say about robin fashion at this point. But I do love the idea that like, you can tell who’s up for the for the candidate to see by just how shining they are in the bright sunlight of robe.

Dr Rad  37:50

Yeah, I guess it’s like, again, like with everything in our society as well, your clothes kind of tell people I suppose a lot about you know, who you are, and the kind of message you’re trying to get out there. And I can see how it would be useful in a day before you have much media available to you that your physical presence could act as an advertisement, in that respect. So it seems that Levy’s explanation for this is that the plebeians were irritated enough that they would finally vote for a plebeian military tribute. And so, you know, the law has been passed that the bands are finally at the stage where they’re like, yes, it is time for a Colombian to take this office.

Dr G  38:34

Nobody can stop us from dying out togas white, and we’ll be out there casting around for the vote. Exactly.

Dr Rad  38:41

So the patrician stepped in and make sure that that is not an option, and that it’s going to be consoles for the next year. Classic. Yeah, exactly. Supposedly, this is necessary, because of the lingering conflict that I mentioned. With the aqueous and the vowel skins. The Latins and her nations rooms allies had let the Romans know that there was talk, they made it put it off for a year, but there was talk, and that therefore, was on the horizon. And therefore you have to have consoles.

Dr G  39:14

Right, which I mean, in a way, I don’t buy it. Because one, the military Tribune’s will conceal the power part of the whole point is their ability to navigate conflict, and lots of it. And it sounds like Rome has a lingering potential for war coming from both the south and the north, with the aqueous, the volsky in the south, and they as part of a trio in the north. So it’s not like things are looking good for Rome right now from a potential military perspective, but I suppose I mean, the consoles have done it for many years. So maybe it’s only war on two fronts, not three.

Dr Rad  39:57

Well, I don’t think anybody knows exactly what They’re facing but as you say, I think it’s more the fact that the consulship has apparently more of a pedigree, I suppose when it comes to this sort of thing. The military tribunes with consular power, they’re fairly new, you know, have they been tested? I mean, nobody starved to death during the plague years. But is that enough? Now, I should flag at this moment in time that not all academics accept that this is actually something that happened, that there was no way. I’m just liking it that was that actually a law against the whitening of cloves is unclear. We do not know for sure. Yeah, I mean, this is, again, we’re in this very hazy period in the 430s, as we’ve alluded to before, where it does seem like our sources are really struggling to make sense of whatever it is that they’re working with. They do seem to have some source material, but they’re struggling to make sense of it. They’re struggling to fill in the gaps. It’s possible that this is maybe some sort of misinterpretation about what had happened the year before, which had to do with the census. And this alphas of the sense or maybe it had something to do with that, perhaps and it or maybe it’s something to do with something to do with canvassing in some capacity. But yeah, some academics have definitely flagged that they just feel like this doesn’t fit, it doesn’t entirely make sense where it’s placed.

Dr G  41:30

Hmm. And it’s the sort of thing where it’s like this period, as well, it’s a bit tricky in terms of locking in any of the sequence of legislation. So we sort of, we don’t start to feel really confident as historians about that for quite some time ahead in that narrative from where we are right now. So it’s, everything’s a bit hazy. The other thing that I would mention here is that even for us as historians, we don’t have a lot to go on from our other types of evidence either. So we’ve got the festy, capital Aloni, capital, aleni, which are these like lists of magistrates, but actually, it’s not a complete record of it, they are damaged inscriptions. And this is one of the chunks of time that we’re missing that for as well. So we don’t even have ways to clarify by going to like, the P graphy. Necessarily, there might be scraps here and there. But we don’t have like a complete set to go to. And so there’s lots of sort of haziness. So the fact that we’ve got any stories at all for the last couple of years, it’s pretty incredible. Really, yeah,

Dr Rad  42:45

definitely. I think this is one of those time periods where not all academics, but some, some academics, see our sources, kind of trying to continue this narrative of the struggle of the orders, you know, as best they can, because that’s the overarching narrative that we’ve kind of got for this time period. But this particular example, for some people seems a bit out of place, it seems a bit early to have legislation and moves made against people that may be maybe getting above themselves in terms of the way that they’re canvassing political office and that kind of thing, so I can kind of see that.

Dr G  43:25

Look, there’s yeah, there’s a lot to take in with this. I think this is actually probably a pretty good place to wrap up this episode on white

Dr Rad  43:32

tigers. All right, very well, white tokers? Yeah. All right. That means that it’s time for the partial pick. All right, so the partial pick is where we wrap up and see how room has fared for the year or in this case, two years because they are quite short ones.

Dr G  43:54

Indeed, indeed. There is a potential for 50 Golden Eagles across five categories, each ranked out of 10 Eagles. Our first is military clout.

Dr Rad  44:08

Hmm. I feel like it’s not much to say really. Military militaries military. Yes, exactly. Zero for me.

Dr G  44:19

Okay, well, that means we can swiftly move on to diplomacy.

Dr Rad  44:24

No.

Dr G  44:27

Well, they seem to have acquired enough grain to mean that they didn’t go into a famine. Surely there was some diplomatic things going on behind the scenes there,

Dr Rad  44:36

I guess. But I guess I see that as more commerce, you know, like, I don’t think they talked to them into giving the grain entirely. I think it was also the money that was talking.

Dr G  44:46

We would kill you next.

Dr Rad  44:49

Yeah, I mean, yeah, you’re right. Like I I’ll give them like a one. But if money’s involved, I don’t think it’s entirely diplomacy.

Dr G  44:57

I don’t think we have any idea where the money’s going. But maybe it is and maybe I don’t

Dr Rad  45:02

Well, yeah. I say I say money, but you know what I mean? Like, good. I trade whatever. But yes, yeah.

Dr G  45:08

Would you like this excellent wooden axe? Alright, so that leads us to our third category expansion.

Dr Rad  45:17

Oh, boy. Absolutely not. Nothing on zero. Yeah, nothing.

Dr G  45:24

All right. Weird to us.

Dr Rad  45:27

Again, I’m going to say no.

Dr G  45:30

Can we give them a negative score for the flaccid, NATO?

Dr Rad  45:36

I think we have to. So does that mean they lose their point?

Dr G  45:41

I think notionally one point be taken off for, for a name such

Dr Rad  45:45

as the flack and it already suffered enough.

Dr G  45:50

He’s lying does die out.

Dr Rad  45:52

All right, I’ll be nice. They can keep that point.

Dr G  45:55

All right. And the final category is the citizens score.

Dr Rad  45:59

Normally, normally, if Rome does not score well across the other categories, it actually means that the citizens are having a bit of a break. But not this.

Dr G  46:07

One. No. I mean, they seem to be really frustrated with the voting system are frustrated with getting their candidates into power. And I mean, suffering a plague doesn’t help.

Dr Rad  46:18

But I was gonna say it’s mostly the plague that disturbs me. I mean, it was bad enough that they needed a temple.

Dr G  46:23

Yes. And who has to build the temple? The Libyans, probably,

Dr Rad  46:28

I don’t think I don’t know that they actually are building it. Like literally at this moment. But certainly, the plague is obviously pretty bad. And it doesn’t matter how wealthy you are. disease strikes everyone.

Dr G  46:40

That’s true. That’s true. Okay, so that sounds like a bit of a zero as well. Yeah,

Dr Rad  46:43

I’m afraid we’re gonna end up on 150. And even that, one was given begrudgingly.

Dr G  46:53

Yeah, I really had to convince you to give that one row. You’ve really, really outdone yourself in the last couple of years. I think this is a sign that when we don’t have really good, strong, detailed source material to go off, there’s actually no way to judge whether Rome is doing well or not.

Dr Rad  47:11

Well, okay. Agreed. My Account of levy is very short. However, there is a bit of a sense of what’s going on. It’s just not good stuff.

Dr G  47:21

And I didn’t even mention that I’ve had Diodorus Siculus for both of these years, and he gives me nothing. So

Dr Rad  47:29

yeah, to be fair, though, I was kind of imagining that we might do for 3342 and 431 in one year. So let me assure the listeners that for 31, things are going to pick up again, it’s not going to be quite simply.

Dr G  47:44

Oh yeah, no next episode, tune in because things are going to be on the up and up in 431. Believe me,

Dr Rad  47:50

definitely. So thank you so much, everyone for tuning in to hear all about the odd blankness of 433 and to VCE,

Dr G  48:01

you know, so blank that we’ve even dyed our togas more white than usual. You know

Dr Rad  48:06

what, though, I suppose if we’re going to be kind, if we look at 433 42 as being a bit late 2019 and 2020 Sorry, 2020 in 2021. It makes sense a pandemic really does put a dampener on your daily activities.

Dr G  48:24

It’s a real blow. Yeah.

Dr Rad  48:26

It’s hard to get anything done under those circumstances.

Dr G  48:29

Well, it has been a pleasure as always chatting with you doctor read and I look forward to next time.

Dr Rad  48:36

Indeed, I can’t wait to see what other vaguely medical names you have for me for the magistrates.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians, we’d like to send a special shout out to our Patreon supporters, Ensley, Joshua P and Austin, who all joined us around two years ago in 2020. Just around Christmas time, what a present. You too can become a patreon if you so desire if you love independent podcasting. In return, you receive special early access to our bonus episodes, and occasionally we make a bonus episode that’s just for Patreon is only However, if a monthly donation is not in your budget, you can always buy us a coffee on our cofee account and provide us with much needed energy. And finally, we are very excited to say that our first collaboration will be released early in 2023. That’s right, we wrote a book. If you would like to get a copy of Rex, the seven kings of room then please head to Highlands press we’ll have the link in the show notes and buy a copy to support not only an independent podcast but an independent publisher as well. So many good deeds going around. The sauces first episode can be found in the show notes on our website. Until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome

In this episode, we delve into the craziness of the mid-430s BCE. The Romans are feeling the pressure, so they order dictators by the dozen.

Episode 131 – Dictators by the Dozen

Freaking Fidenae

In 435 BCE the Romans are once more battling the Etruscans over the issue of Fidenae. Fidenae had once been a Roman colony, until they treacherously switched their allegiances to the city of Veii. They must have felt bold, because in 435 BCE they started pillaging Roman territory.

To add insult to serious injury, the people of Fidenae and Veii crossed the River Anio and set up camp near the Colline Gate. The Romans could not ignore such provocative behaviour, even if they were suffering through a pestilence. This was scary stuff! Time for dictator number one.

Quintius Servilius was appointed dictator and he wasted no time rallying forces. The Romans found themselves besieging the people of Fidenae. Hopefully, the dictator has some clever strategies up his sleeve…

A Total Train-wreck + Dictators

434 BCE is a year so confusing that even our sources can’t work it out. We have two sets of consuls, military tribunes with consular power, dictators, AND censors. What on earth is going on?

While it is difficult to be sure of the power dynamics in the city this year, there are definitely some interesting struggles going on in Rome.

Things to Listen Out For

• Dictators… dictators everywhere!
• Cunning plans to capture cities
• Spiteful censors
• Scary tax hikes
• A lovely cross-promo from indie podcast The Delicious Legacy!

Looking to catch up the decade of the 430s and where this chaos all began? Jump back in time to the drama of 439 BCE with Episode 127: The Assassination of Spurius Maelius.

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Image courtesy of the University of Michigan Press

Our Players 435 BCE

Consuls

• C. Iulius (-f. – n. Iullus?) (Pat) Cos. 447, 434?
• L. (or Proc.) Verginius – f. – n. Tricostus (Pat)

Dictator

• Q. Servilius P. f. Sp. n. Priscus Fidenas (Pat)

Master of the Horse

• Postumus Aebutius – f. – n. Helva Cornicen (Pat) Cos 442

Censors

• C. Furius – f. – n. Paculus Fusus (Pat) Cos 441, Mil. Tr. c.p. 426
• M. Geganius M. f. – n. Macerinus (Pat) Cos. 447, 443, 437

Our Players 434 BCE

Consuls

434 BCE is a a busy year and there’s two sets of consuls!

• C. Iulius – f. – n. Iullus (Pat) Cos. 447, 435
• L. (or Proc.) Verginius – f. – n. Tricostus (Pat) Cos. 435

• M. Manlius – f. – n. Capitolinus (Vulso?) (Pat)
• Q. Sulpicius Ser.?f. – n. Camerinus Praetextatus (Pat)

Military Tribunes with Consular Power

• Ser. Cornelius – f. – n. Cossus (Pat)
• M. Manlius P. f. – n. Capitolinus (Vulso?) (Pat)
• Q. Sulpicius Ser.?f. – n. Camerinus Praetextatus (Pat)

Dictator

• Mam. Aemilius M. f. – n. Mamercinus (Pat) Mil. Tr. c. p. 438

Master of the Horse

• A.Postumius – f. – n. Tubertus (Pat)

Our Sources

• Dr G reads Diodorus Siculus 12.36; Cicero Cato Maior De Senectute 16.56; Cicero Mil. 3.8; Dionysius of Halicarnassus Roman Antiquities 12.1-4; Valerius Maximus 5.3.2g.
• Dr Rad reads Livy ab Urbe Condita 4.21-24.
• Broughton, T. R. S., Patterson, M. L. 1951. The Magistrates of the Roman Republic Volume 1: 509 B.C. – 100 B.C. (The American Philological Association)
• Cornell, T. J. 1995. The Beginnings of Rome: Italy and Rome from the Bronze Age to the Punic Wars (c. 1000-264 BC) (Taylor & Francis)
• Forsythe, G. 2006. A Critical History of Early Rome: From Prehistory to the First Punic War(University of California Press) 
• Wilson, M. 2021. Dictator: The Evolution of the Roman Dictatorship (University of Michigan Press).

Sound Effects

Thanks to BBC Sounds, Orange Free Sounds and Sound Bible for sound effects, and the glorious Bettina Joy de Guzman for our theme music.

001.jpeg" alt="Painting of Mark Antony providing the funerary oration for Julius Caesar. There's a huge crowd of people grieving and listening as Antony speaks from a ledge in a toga." class="wp-image-4155">

While not strictly speaking a painting of a dictator, this painting certainly carries the mood of a single man in command of the Roman populace. William Holmes Sullivan Julius Caesar’, Act III, Scene 2, Marc Antony’s Oration, Royal Shakespeare Company Collection.

Automated Transcript

Generated by Otter AI

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

dictator, consoles, people, patrician, rome, power, etruscans, censorship, detail, happening, military, livy, apparently, bit, year, city, point, historian, skins, son

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Dr Rad  01:02

Welcome to the partial historians,

Dr G  01:05

we explore all the details of ancient Rome.

Dr Rad  01:09

Everything from the political scandals, the levels as the battles waged, and when citizens turn against each other. I’m Dr. Rad.

Dr G  01:19

And I’m Dr. G. We consider Rome as the Roman Sword by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories.

Dr Rad  01:29

Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city.

Dr G  01:51

Hello, and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historian’s. I am Dr. G,

Dr Rad  01:59

and die and Dr. Brad

Dr G  02:01

looking fabulous as usual.

Dr Rad  02:02

Give me such a nice compliment. And I always forget to give you names just because you’re just a naturally beautiful, I don’t think I need to see the camera can see you this time so they can see the truth.

Dr G  02:16

So we have been tracing rooms history from the foundation of the city that we have, and it’s been a wild ride so far. And it’s only gonna get worse. I think we’re entering into this

Dr Rad  02:28

period. Wait, wait, we promised at the end of the previous episode that it was going to be better.

Dr G  02:34

Oh, like I can’t make any guarantees about what I may or may not have promised at the end of the last Samsung. I don’t know we’re entering into this period where we’re going to see more and more dictators. So I think you know, we’ve seen some already, but just you wait, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Yeah, we’re heading down that kind of half

Dr Rad  02:52

definitely. So to do a quick recap, Dr. g of where we’re at, in this journey of Rome, from the founding of the city, deep in the Roman Republic that we are, we just covered the year 436. And in 436, we saw quite a few things happening in my account. So a little bit of reading happening, but nothing too serious on the military front. And then you had some detail about some of the domestic occurrences

Dr G  03:17

that were going on. I did but I mean, my sources are pretty thin on the ground right now. And I feel like I’m not really building any sort of narrative momentum myself and sort of understanding what’s happening in this period. And it’s partly because my great friend, my soloists in hard times Dionysius of Halicarnassus, is music.

Dr Rad  03:34

Well, certainly what we saw in the bits that you put together and the bits that I had from levy was that there is seemingly another tribune of the plebs called spurious. Malleus will trying to seek vengeance or in his words, justice against the men who were involved in either murdering or triggering the murder of the regional spirits.

Dr G  04:00

I think it’s far more likely that spurious maelys came back from the dead.

Dr Rad  04:05

We’ll let the audience decide. But anyway, and so he seems to have been going after a holla or at least a house property because a holler of course is in exile and then also Manoukian is who was the prefect of the green? Who reported me aliases suppose and treachery doesn’t get very far though I don’t think because even though he’s got the name a pestilence breaks out. And also I don’t think people who were digging his his whole vibe

Dr G  04:34

Yeah. Which is weird. I feel like the narrative who’s not making a lot of sense right now

Dr Rad  04:39

look, I think it just goes to show that it is not the case that a rose by any other name. Well, I think you Shakespeare right, any so yeah, there’s a few things happening. Definitely the plague. I think it’s the most significant for 36 But I feel safe now saying that we can delve into For 35

Dr G  05:22

We have some consoles we have Gaius Julius okay. Yes son of grandson. Oh of question mark. Ooh, this question mark. So much is unknown, a patrician console for the second time previously console in 447.

Dr Rad  05:41

Definitely so fairly recent

Dr G  05:44

fairly recent. Yeah. Doesn’t stand out in my memory is significant. Maybe I forgotten something.

Dr Rad  05:49

Now that was that time period right after the for the second December when it was kind of a bit like, like there wasn’t a lot of detail. Yeah,

Dr G  05:57

okay. Yeah. And we also have Lucien or propolis. The guinea Yes. Son of grants on off, try Costas

Dr Rad  06:08

also a patrician. Also a protrusion. Definitely yeah. Gonna have some other night yesterday. So this year.

Dr G  06:16

We are out we are going to have some sensors, huh? So we’re going to have Gaius

Dr Rad  06:23

furious nice to return the fury AI

Dr G  06:28

pack Ulus versus patrician previously consoling 441 and Marcus Gurgaon is son of Marcus Massa Rhenus. Yes console many times 447 So with old mate Euless. 443 Yeah, and 437 only like a couple of years ago apparently

Dr Rad  06:53

made such an impression.

Dr G  06:55

And but wait, things get out of hand this year, who knew? There’s going to be a dictator.

Dr Rad  07:01

Wow. Dictators recently,

Dr G  07:07

not really giving that the Quintus Sebelius, son of Publius, grandson of spurious Priscus muddiness

Dr Rad  07:18

patrician, yeah.

Dr G  07:20

Yeah, the guy who captures for DNA,

Dr Rad  07:23

yes. And we’ve also got a dictator. And you know, you’ve also got to have a master of

Dr G  07:27

the horse. Everybody’s got to be in charge of Horses, Don’t They? Yeah. costumers a beauteous Hoover coolican. Sounds like he has Gordon’s I hope that’s not true for

Dr Rad  07:37

him. But there are so many Roman names which have medical connotations to me, but that’s probably because.

Dr G  07:46

Yes, yeah, infiltration of Latin into western medicine console of 442. So a lot of people that we’ve seen before in various guises. Now, back for some action. And I’m really excited for what you’re going to tell me about this year, because I have always literally nothing else. But this list of names.

Dr Rad  08:06

Well, look, I’m not gonna lie. This is the period. I think that’s probably the murkiest I’ve ever seen Big Core. I know, that way. It’s because there does seem to be a lot of blending of years in levies account, I don’t think it’s quite as clear cut as it usually is. So to be honest, we enforce anywhere. I mean, yes. That’s why

Dr G  08:29

I keep saying I think spirits Malleus could have just come back from the dead. So we don’t know what’s happening with this chronology right now.

Dr Rad  08:35

This is true. This is true. The chronology is all shutter Hill, I am dividing them up into 436 and 435. But it’s probably slightly arbitrary. I don’t know there seems to be a lot of blending going on here. Certainly, I think with the whole plague situation. This might be part of the problems, after all. Leary himself said it’s problematic period. In that last episode that we were we talked a lot about his

Dr G  09:01

song. Yeah, it’s troublesome. I mean, if everybody’s tick, who’s going to be writing up the fastI? And we’re like, guys are going to take leave?

Dr Rad  09:07

Good question. It’s good question. So anyway, so we’ve got our consoles to start off the obviously. So we’ve got our Gaius Reus. And we’ve got our looses the Guinness as consoles, the people of room are terrified. They’ve got a really big job on their hands. Now, as often happens when you’ve got domestic problems of this magnitude, nobody’s super concerned about campaigning outside of Roman territory at this point in time. So you may wonder, why am I saying that? Well, that’s because we’ve been dealing with these issues with the Etruscans for the last couple of years. And there’s question mark over the loyalties of a Roman colony, kidney. So I’m mentioning it in the sense that this is a time where that almost makes it backburner in the face of you know, worse. Exactly. So both the patricians and plebeians are happy. That is a peaceful time In Rome, because they got just oh, I don’t know, so much to deal with. However the people from feed may

Dr G  10:12

decide it’s time to make. They don’t have the plague.

Dr Rad  10:16

Well, I mean, that’s just Yeah, it is infectious disease. So there have been some people from you know, who all holed up in there, you know, in the mountains hiding behind their city walls and that sort of thing. They decide, clearly, this is a prime time to start pillaging Roman territory because the Romans just you know, keeping to themselves isolating

Dr G  10:42

maybe socially distant

Dr Rad  10:43

Yeah. Anyway, and so they summons people from they to you know, help them out. Oh, yeah. Then you allies. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, the Phyllis skins are not really interested in restarting the war at this point of time. Now they have been involved as allies in this conflict up until this point, we’ve mentioned them briefly.

Dr G  11:05

I have sought Yeah, I have some details on the full list.

Dr Rad  11:09

Okay, because I always I must admit, I really like their name for lists.

Dr G  11:12

Skins. Yeah, it is nice. It says it rolls off the tongue mostly

Dr Rad  11:16

that a classy

Dr G  11:19

Well, apparently the skins are a distinct people.

Dr Rad  11:23

I think so. Yeah, I think so they’re

Dr G  11:25

not they don’t consider themselves to be Latin, and they don’t consider themselves to be a Truscott. So they are from Northern Latin, like geographically speaking southern or TURia. So they kind of on this really sort of hazy border line between these two regions. Yeah. But they actually have a language, which is separate from both. Interesting. Yeah, so they have a capital city, which is thought to be on a tough spur. So tough is a type of stone on the eastern Monte Cimini. So for those who are like, wait a minute, let me get out my Italian maps, and sitting between two tributaries of the Tiber, the Macondo and the Faso majority of Maggiore, I should say, my Italian, correct, yeah. And so this is also known as the trust inside of the Tiber. So they’re right on this sort of river edge as well. They have a tradition that they’re founded by an algo of hero. So a great comes over a guy called how lesses and this is a story that often tells us in the fasting, and they also have a competing tradition that they have a child study and foundation. Okay, so different Greeks. Yeah. And despite the fact that they their language is separate and distinct, it is considered a dialect connected mostly to Latin, okay, rather than a trust gum.

Dr Rad  12:55

I’m suspicious. By Greeks.

Dr G  12:58

I mean, one should be suspicious. And the politicans throw in their lot with V. Yes. And, also, and then for DNA, what as that evolves there,

Dr Rad  13:09

but one at this point in time, yeah, in many ways, but anyway, but at this point in time, they’re not interested in taking part in anymore according to Livi, even though the airlines had like really good news, and also the fact that I think everybody knows that Rome is experiencing this pestilence. So even though they’ve seen like, the weak member of the herd, the flu skins not having it. Okay, so as a result, it is just the people of they and feeding me that ended up crossing over the Ania River and setting up their standards near the climb gate, one of the gates of room because it is surrounded by a wall.

Dr G  13:52

It is surrounded by the wall, the calling gate is if you’re in Rome, today, it’s near terminus station. Yes, it’s also where the Vestal virgins get buried.

Dr Rad  14:01

And it’s also where Crassus the guy who defeats Spartacus has one of his most notable military successes. Brandon fat is

Dr G  14:14

Yeah, famous gates. That’s the sort of quality content wherever you to this room, and Dave will

Dr Rad  14:19

come on in anyway. So of course, the people of Redmond are freaking out because people are

Dr G  14:25

at the gates of Rome. And they’re like, You know what, I haven’t been able to control my bell for weeks. Exactly. Not up to a battlefield confrontation.

Dr Rad  14:32

Exactly. It’s the last thing that you need when you have to play to have enemy camped right outside the gate. So as a result, console Julius Ulis, whatever, bring it into action that’s placing troops along the ramparts and the walls of Rome. Meanwhile, the other console we’re getting is is consulting with the Senate in the temple of queerness, which I believe is on the Rule Hill, funnily enough, don’t know. I’m just going to say it sounds reasonable. Yeah, exactly. All right now it’s at this point in time, obviously. Tough times. What do you need if you’re in a tough time? I take

Dr G  15:14

Oh, dictator. Yeah, it’s time for a dictator. You know what would be good right now? Somebody to take charge?

Dr Rad  15:19

Exactly. Yes. So this is where we have quinti as Sir William this question marks around the rest of his name being made dictator. Now we’re getting us is feeling a little awkward at this point in time because his his colleague is not there to consult about this suggestion. Okay, so he wants to discuss it. She’s very sweet. And Ulis Ulis gives his consent dictator is officially named and he then gets to choose his master of the horse, his little lieutenancy type person. And that is of course one customers a booty is helva who is chosen. So the dictator Sebelius he also springs into action. There is no time to be lost. He orders everyone to assemble outside the Colin gate at dawn.

Dr G  16:08

Get there? Yeah, we will face the enemy directly. Absolutely.

Dr Rad  16:11

Anyone who is capable of fighting needs to show up now.

Dr G  16:17

Just drag yourself out of bed. I don’t care if you agreed about the gills.

Dr Rad  16:21

I was gonna say there’s a question about the definition of this. Because normally I would say that probably involves most of the men in the population. At this point in time,

Dr G  16:30

dear Marsha, I wrote to you from Bostick, Ben where I’ve just

Dr Rad  16:36

was usually Lucretia

Dr G  16:39

not in this case. He’s just like this.

Dr Rad  16:44

Dear Lucretia. I write to you from Asik to do well to fat

Dr G  16:52

the order has just come through that we must be at the gate if we’re able to fight but I can’t I can’t even keep myself up rat for any length of time. Will you go to my place the creature will you fight for me?

Dr Rad  17:07

No you will not because that would be an abomination.

Dr G  17:10

Don’t you dare emasculate me but going out there you get

Dr Rad  17:14

even though I may be as sick as a little baby You are not to fight under any circumstances and you’re so rude. Anyway, so anyone who could fight supposed to show up at this point in time they remove the standards from the Treasury and they are brought to the dictator the enemy I presume notice that there is some activity in Rome itself and they withdraw to higher ground smart move always a good move in a military engagement to have the higher ground

Dr G  17:44

I have a detail about the standards if you’re interested why

Dr Rad  17:49

tell me about the standards

Dr G  17:50

yeah look for on Tinus and his Street hedge funds okay up to Section Eight subsections eight to nine on restoring morale but

Dr Rad  18:01

I’m liking where this is going Yeah,

Dr G  18:03

I had so little to add to this year but yeah, the standards is one of them. Hey, I will just read about it. This is hardware

Dr Rad  18:09

right here

Dr G  18:10

the dictator civilians Priscus yes having given the command to carry the standards of the Legions against the hostile for less guns ordered wait whoa is it just the feet are nicer with it

Dr Rad  18:25

for less guns? Yeah. Very emphatically said

Dr G  18:30

and yet reduce have this detail you know, I think that probably come up later. Yeah. Okay, I

Dr Rad  18:35

think this is showing the blending I retract by friends. I’ll come back to No not at all I would not put money on like me. I think that this just goes to show like the blending that’s happening. Yeah. All right. Anyway,

Dr G  18:47

all right. The standards of allegiance to be brought against the hostel for skins Yeah. The removal of the standards out does that put me in mind and I was like this is my time to shine but maybe it’s not Yeah. But he does this and then immediately orders the standard bearer for to be executed for hesitating to obey. So the first one is like the word now you won’t be you really want me to go the standards. It’s like kill that man. I’m the dictator kill that man. Wow, the rest coward by this example, advanced against the foe.

Dr Rad  19:21

Wow. Okay. Well, I mean that is your right as a dictator is it not? Yeah, to just execute someone on site. That’s the point of having a dictator they can make quick snap decisions which is really helpful when someone’s life is involved. Yeah, anyway, somebody’s

Dr G  19:35

life was involved.

Dr Rad  19:37

All right, well, any here so. So sorry.

Dr G  19:46

Not not trying to we wait for you.

Dr Rad  19:50

We really do. Anyway. So Willie is starts marching his Roman forces to meet the enemy and they end up meeting they meet, they ended up meeting up near no momentum, not in momentum. Need to mention I say that because momentum is no pot. So I just want to make that very, very much not involved yet. It’s also one of those interesting areas which is in Latin and apparently, neither say bye and frontier but it is Latin. Yeah. It has also been mentioned as being originally a colony of Alba. Oh, yeah. Interesting. I’m also throwing those details in there. So it’s also a colony of Alba along with your favourite named place. Crust you Mariam is great and fini. Of all places. It’s about four miles from the Tiber. Hmm, all right. Anyway, so battle ensues with the Etruscans and the rumours appearing to be able to hand because the trust can end up retreating. So really, this dictator that he is ends up pursuing the retreating foe, pushes them back into the city of Feeny, the Romans that of course, kick into siege mentality. Saturday mentality moving varies where they surround feed night with a rampart. So obviously some kind of temporary fence. Yeah, defensive or we’re not defensive in this case.

Dr G  21:28

Offensive more, I’m offended by that fence.

Dr Rad  21:30

Exactly. But unfortunately, they are unable to capture the city using scaling ladders. Classic siege technique, because feed a is apparently very well fortified. Huh? Yeah, you’d

Dr G  21:46

want to be after switching sides. Be like I’m ditching the Romans For the Etruscans for prepare the defence?

Dr Rad  21:53

Well, funny, you should say that actually, because there’s another thing to their defences, which is very impressive. They also aren’t going to be able to starve them out because they had plenty of corn. They were very well prepared. Oh, yeah. Maybe that’s

Dr G  22:09

why there was a grain shortage. Hoarding grain for years at this point be like we can hold up, still get some delicious something.

Dr Rad  22:19

Exactly. Got plenty of Doritos. They last forever, even when they say oh, they still taste

Dr G  22:24

good luck and do what you got to do when you’re hungry. Exactly.

Dr Rad  22:27

Now, this is a bit of a pickle. And it causes Sebelius to say, free viewing of the situation. At the third act Oliver in case any of you were fans of musical theatre? Anyway, he’s very familiar with the region. He’s got to rethink how everything is going. I mean, obviously, we’re not far from Rome. So I think most people are pretty familiar with the region. It’s not really like a kudos to him or anything like that. Anyway, but he decides that he’s going to attack cDNA in the on the father’s side of the city, because in this particular area, the way that the city is positioned, it’s I guess they felt when they were originally setting it up and setting up the defences that it didn’t really need to have as strong defences because naturally it was kind of

Dr G  23:15

got a natural defence. Yeah, like its element to it. And it also

Dr Rad  23:19

I guess, wouldn’t be maybe the most logical place for any attacking armies to

Dr G  23:23

launch their attack. Well, we wouldn’t want to accuse the Romans of logic now, would we?

Dr Rad  23:28

So he decides that what he’s going to do is another classic siege technique, which he’s going to start to drive a mine into the citadel of Finney. So I gather from that that what he’s probably doing is he’s digging under the fortifications.

Dr G  23:44

I have a real problem with the idea that they’re going to tunnel into somewhere

Dr Rad  23:48

Hey, did it they didn’t Castle

Dr G  23:51

Well yeah, but this I mean, this takes a long time that you get to be dictated for six months.

Dr Rad  23:55

Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on like, how substantial are the walls we’re talking about here? I mean, sure. It’s well fortified for 435 BCE. What is that?

Dr G  24:04

What is What does that even mean? I don’t think

Dr Rad  24:07

we should envision like a Lord of the Rings style castle at this point in time, which is very disappointing, but it is this is a technique that they do use in this sort of warfare I mean even think of World War One trenches they were battles for undergrad I’m

Dr G  24:21

not completely against it. I’m just a bit like I feel like logistically it’s just not the greatest strategy where there’s history Wait,

Dr Rad  24:29

you haven’t heard the whole Oh, okay so severely is also only dedicates part of his army to digging this oh, well, that’s good. Because Because because the rest of the army is going to maintain the siege in like an obvious place like hey, look at us besieging you. Okay. moustache 12 And so the people In the city are like, well, this is the

Dr G  25:01

attack. So that’s, that’s the siege. Exactly. They’re

Dr Rad  25:05

distracted by that. And therefore, they had no idea that they were being attacked by the sneaky mine into their Citadel until the city was already taken care of all the doubts that you like, but it works.

Dr G  25:19

According to Livy. Hey, all right,

Dr Rad  25:23

gets his information from Augustus Caesar. Thank you very much. And that should be good enough for you. Alrighty, what? Anyway, so, back in Rome, we forget about this very quickly. We’re back to the senses. Oh, yeah. So we’ve got our senses. This is apparently when they approve a public building the villa publica. Okay, which is set up in the Campus Martius. And it is in this year that the census was taken there for the first time. Now, I believe that this building, unfortunately, no longer remains. But we have a rough idea of what it looks like because it has appeared on some coins, I think.

Dr G  26:09

Okay, so this Philip publica is supposed to be the spot where the census is now conducted. It is like rock up to the Canopus marshes to be counted. Yeah,

Dr Rad  26:16

this is we need an official building. Hmm, yeah. Well, fair enough. Yeah. Now, this is again, one of those years where I’m like, is at the end of 4:35am. I blending into 434? I don’t really. I would, I would say that this is where I would end for 30.

Dr G  26:35

Okay, I do have some more details. Okay. You actually, it’s gonna seem a little bit odd, I think. But maybe it’s in keeping with the fact that we’re dealing with plague and pestilence. Yeah. But there is this idea that comes through in the scholarship. And I’m referring here to Wilson’s 2021 book, dictator, the evolution of the Roman dictator. What a handy volume to have on it seems like the thing to read when we’re heading into this kind of territory, yeah, but he talks about sort of Julius Priscus. dictator for this year. Yeah. As somebody who may be a candidate for being in a slightly religious position as dictator as well. Okay. There’s this idea of a nail driving dictator. And you might be like,

Dr Rad  27:23

what? Oh, he drives the nails into the walls of the temple. Right?

Dr G  27:27

Yeah. So driving some nails in?

Dr Rad  27:29

That was my hearing. I was like.

Dr G  27:34

Yeah, so this is a thing that is attested in certain cases. This idea of I’m going to quote a little passage from Livi. The Senate ordered that a dictator be named on account of there being a need for driving a nail. Okay. And this crops up later as well. Right. But it’s thought that potentially this idea of the nail driving ritual, pushing it into the door of the temple, yeah, is something that might be of interest and origin, right. which symbolises? I’m not sure. Okay. Yeah. Like, this is a detail that I haven’t I haven’t pursued in in its absolute form. So

Dr Rad  28:16

you know, I feel like that’s a question. I probably should know the answer to myself. I’ve just temporarily forgotten.

Dr G  28:22

I mean, yeah, man, maybe hold that space. And when I know what the templates are, I’ll just

Dr Rad  28:30

okay, sorry. Yeah. So,

Dr G  28:31

yeah, so this idea that somehow you can fix a problem? Yes, with iron and prayer. And it is also obviously has tangible sort of military connotations as well, because it’s been done by the dictator. Right. So there’s this odd sense coming through that we’re potentially in this early period of the dictatorship, right. Like many things in Rome, nothing is necessarily just political, everything is bound up in ritual process as well. And the relationship with the gods and the dictator doesn’t is no different from anybody else in that regard. In having to make sure that the gods are appeased. Oh, yeah.

Dr Rad  29:10

I mean, all magistrates. There’s always there’s religious connotations to their role and thinks that they have to carry it out in a religious capacity, even though they’re not holding like a priesthood or something. Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Dr G  29:22

That’s that’s the only day No, I

Dr Rad  29:24

like it. I really liked it. Yeah, keen to can hear more about the temple. Alright, so does that mean we can pass now on to 434 430? Okay, 434 B, C, E. We got Dr. G, who’s the man History.

Dr G  30:00

Ah. Well, in the spirit of things being complicated there’s a lot of people involved. So it’s 434 BCE. Yeah, I’d love to tell you the dinosaurs. How can I ask this has returned to me but he has not. But we have two pairs of consoles. Awkward times already, frankly. The first pair will be the pair that gives their name to the year. Weirdly, that’s guys Julius. Oh us. patrician former console in 447. And last year. Yeah, and Lucia is all propolis we’re guineas. Try Costas patrician counselling for 35. If those names don’t sound familiar, I don’t know if anything ever well.

Dr Rad  30:47

This is this is the awkward thing about them being consoles, right? There is some there are some questions about can people hold the Consortium for two years in a row. But then again, it is early days in room.

Dr G  31:00

It is early days. And this seems to be something like something funny is going on. It seems for some reason they carry over maybe it’s because I’ve only completed Part of their term and the dictator has come in and gone but seems odd anyway,

Dr Rad  31:11

or maybe it’s kind of the military situation. Yeah. We’ll talk about that a bit more detail. A second pair. We do have a second pair.

Dr G  31:20

Marcus Manlius. Capital. Linus Russo. patrician. Yeah. And Quinta. So pikas, son of civilians, can marinas pride text Hodges, also a patrician, then we have some military children’s with cultural power so this year is a bit of a feels like a bit of a train wreck already two sets of consoles and some military trophies with Godzilla power and you like these guys, they’re not doing it for us, sweep them out, bring in somebody else. Then we get Sebelius Cornelius cosas Ooh, Patricia this Yes, Marcus mentally as Capitoline is also so seems to transition from being a console to being a military shooter with cultural power naturally, and also his companion. We just saw pickiest can Marino’s protests TARDIS. Wait a minute? Yeah. I mean, why would you listen to going on? Yeah. Why would you? It doesn’t make any sense. I’m not gonna pretend that this makes sense. If you’ve got a pair of consoles, and it’s working. Don’t change it. If you need a third person. Maybe just allocate one military tribunal or cultural power to join the two consoles. Why did they have to change their position? Nobody knows. It gets worse though. Yeah. We have a dictator.

Dr Rad  32:30

Of course. This is the trifecta. 434 at the trifecta,

Dr G  32:35

you can have it oh, just gotta keep putting people into power. Yeah, it’s Mercosur millions. Son of markets members are kindness.

Dr Rad  32:45

I always hate this name. Actually. I don’t like it. I mean, they’re messiness. I think we decided last time never seen

Dr G  32:51

us. Yeah, I guess it Yeah, I feel like with Latin is like, do I see your dog if

Dr Rad  32:57

it sounds very hip hop. I agree. Like the has is awkward to say. So I prefer my messiness. But it sounds like you know, most seniors, it’s house.

Dr G  33:07

Upper tuition. Yeah. They were a military tributing with consular power and for 38. Yeah. Appointed to face the threats of the fullest skins and the Etruscans. And also seems to be the person who limits the censorship to one and a half years

Dr Rad  33:23

spoil my story.

Dr G  33:27

Well, I don’t know how it happened, and how that comes about. And they appoint monster of the horse, earliest stimulus to Bertus to Plutus.

Dr Rad  33:39

I had no idea I was kind of like it. That’s a bit like not a fan of patrician sounds like rice potatoes. Anyway. Alright, so I do have some detail about this year. Now once again, Livi is actually telling me a little bit about his source material to try and explain the train wreck. That is this list of magistrates that we have here. So apparently, Dr. G, it is like hideous metre, or maker. I mean, it’s the saucy whatever. He’s the one that says there are same, the same consoles from 435 into 434. Sorry.

Dr G  34:15

Okay, so a source that’s reasonably closer than Livi is Yeah, and we’ve

Dr Rad  34:19

also we know that Libby cites this guy quite a lot. He’s obviously someone that Libby relies heavily on. However, we also have the larious anteus and Quintus to bairro sources.

Dr G  34:32

I did my study on these two, yeah, because I have nothing for this year.

Dr Rad  34:36

They say that it is markers Manlius and Quintas or piccies. And they apparently were drawing on linen rolls for their information. And we have mentioned the linen rolls before. They are literally rules made of linen, with records of magistrates, etc on them. But both say that all the historians had claimed Ain’t that these guys were, in fact, military tributes with consular power. It’s a confusing time it really is. Yeah, like any ice maker, he basically apparently very confident with his version of things. He’s just like, This is how it is. No questions to Barrow, however, apparently said that he was uncertain about what was the truth, like who consoles were their military treatments with consular power, who knows he was a bit more uncertain. Libya as a result is also in a total heat right now. Cannot make sense of it. And he says to you, you know what, this will have been a really long time ago, I get off my back

Dr G  35:39

doing the best that I can. resources I have available to me, let’s not get caught up in it. So I think one of the things to keep in mind when we’re thinking about Valeria is anteus. And alias Toubro is that we’re dealing with other writers from the first century BCE. So they’re writing a little bit earlier than Livi. But they’re writing in the same century as the beers. So there’s Mesa Mesa is a little bit earlier than that. And so these two only maybe know quite as much as we could possibly find out anyway. And their chances of getting hold of better material is pretty slim.

Dr Rad  36:15

I guess the thing is, we do know that whilst Livy gives us these little insights in his process, which make him seem like a decent historian, we know that he doesn’t often actually like leave his home to go and look at source material himself. So I guess it’s a question of we don’t really probably know very much about these guys. And whether they actually did they like travel around and look at, you know, lists of magistrates? Did they? You know, did they have other things? It’s they’re just a fragmentary, it’s hard to say,

Dr G  36:47

yeah, they are fragmentary. And we’re not really sure we have a little bit of detail. Yeah. Hilarious. anteus is listed as one of the younger analysts, which is quite cute. Nice. And he is thought to have only written after 50 BCE. De is very close to living. So and he’s worked goes from the foundation of the city. Yeah, the hypothetical to around about 91, which we have a fragment for. Okay. So covering a good stretch of time. Yeah. But yeah, because we’ve only got him in fragments. He wrote heaps, but we don’t have a lot of it. Yeah. And he was interested in, wait for it. He’s kind of like one of those sort of military ask historians, he’s super interested in, like, the distribution of troops in the provinces, things like that, and interested in colonies being founded and how omens are navigated. Right. So it’s all like sort of process driven in a way. It’s part of his focus. Yeah. Nice. Which is quite would be interesting to have more of

Dr Rad  37:56

it. Sounds like a bit of a loss. Yeah,

Dr G  37:59

it definitely is. And I think Likewise, with Ilyas Toubro. So he’s a jurist, Rand historian. Yes. And he is the son of luteus eylea. So to grow, who was also a historian, and also a friend of Cicero, so like, tomorrow is mixing in you know, some interesting circles, definitely he fought in the army of Pompey at for solace. Yeah, so you know, he’s got some experience. So he dedicates himself ultimately to jurisprudence, and historiography,

Dr Rad  38:35

okay.

Dr G  38:37

And so, this seems to be the thing that really drives his career is like, you know, being involved as a senator ultimately in Rome, but also publishing works, some of them judicial in nature, some of them historical in nature. So he has a 14 books that we know of Roman history from the Punic Wars at the very earliest, it seems, and it seems like he does become a source for others to use as well. But we don’t really know the substance of like, what he was trying to do with that work or like what his focus was necessarily, okay, such as the fragmentary nature of the source.

Dr Rad  39:15

Well, look, it’s comforting to know that levy was at least using multiple sources and comparing their accounts. So for those of you who think Libby is a bad historian

Dr G  39:28

I don’t think he’s gonna add his story and he’s doing the best you can

Dr Rad  39:32

because a lot of flack that you have to bid anywho so to return to what’s actually happening outside of I’d love to know what’s actually happening, quite actually. So the trust skins are obviously terrified because at the end of the previous year, the Romans have captured feeding the people ave a very worried that they might be next on the roomies list, and I think that’s probably a fair assumption. foreshadowing for sure. To make fortune. Now this is where the Phyllis skins come into my story. Okay, so

Dr G  40:04

the standard story again,

Dr Rad  40:08

you could apply here it could apply, hey, they’re feeling a bit guilty about the fact that they had technically backed out of an alliance you know they weren’t there in times of need and the city they and the solicitor has decided to send invoice around to the 12 cities in a true area. And what they want is they want to have this council proclaimed for all of the people in a tree out at the Shrine of full thomna Bolton now. Now the Roman Senate are worried that tensions are going to flare up again. And so they decide that they’re going to choose a dictator. Now that seems a little preemptive. I mean, sure, okay. You can see the Etruscans potentially rallying around

Dr G  40:49

shiver me timbers, my bones, something’s common a dictator? Yeah, it

Dr Rad  40:53

just seems a little you know, maybe they’re just getting into the habit of like a muscle reflex. You know what this needs? Yeah. So this is where we get Amelia is coming back into the story. And he chooses all this post genius to Virtus as his master of the horse, as we mentioned. So then we’ve got our Trifecta there. We’ve mentioned consoles, we’ve mentioned military champions with concealed power, and now we’ve got a dictator, the Romans are putting a lot of energy into getting ready for the war that is to come. And I can kind of again, understand if there’s potential for the Etruscans to unite, it’s not just going to be two cities that they’re facing. This is a more serious threat, for sure. However, things are not going to quite turn out the way that they’re anticipating. So I’m going to fizzle out quite quickly as it would turn out. So merchants end up reporting that the people have they had been refused assistance. So they’re, they’re not going to help out the people have they? Now, presumably, the reason why merchants are involved in this story at all, is because if all the cities are meeting together in a council, it might have become the scene for like a fair or like some trading or something like that.

Dr G  42:09

This is feels like the first time we’ve ever heard about merchants being involved in any of these.

Dr Rad  42:14

Honestly, I know specifically a thing anyway. And so their response the merchants is that you started this war all on your own, you’re going to have to use your own forces, and not drag other people into the Alliance. Because you know what, when you started the war, you were probably hoping that things are gonna go well for you. And you were doing all that on your own, and you’re probably gonna enjoy that success all by yourself. Now that you’re struggling, you want to share it around, you want to share around that struggle? No, thank you, you are fairweather friends. And we have no interest in pursuing this with you. You had no contact with us when everything was going? Well, it’s only when you’re down on your luck that you want to speak to us now. So it all kind of fizzles out is no bigger task and alliances happening. There is no war coming right at this moment. But we have a dictator, we do Hurrah. Now this is a thing mercurous He feels ripped off.

Dr G  43:13

But didn’t get what dictatorship?

Dr Rad  43:15

He wanted. He wants to do something meaningful with his dictatorship. So he decides, I know, I’ll do something that will benefit the city of Rome itself if I can’t conquer an external enemy. So this is where he decides the senses are becoming a little worrying things that need to be cut down to size, either because they hold too much power, or because they hold that power for too long pill. Danny, hi, no. So I would like to go into the details about the censorship in a sec. But let’s proceed with the narrative announced so he summons and assembly. And as the gods have seen fit to take care of rooms, enemies so kindly and made it all come to nothing. He wants to put forward this law that’s going to limit the censorship to a year and a half. And not a day more. Thank you very much. The law was passed the very next day because the people are like, yes, we are on board with this idea. You’re right. We want to limit the power. I wonder

Dr G  44:23

what we don’t know about the censorship in this early period, because this does seem to come out of almost nowhere. I agree.

Dr Rad  44:29

And that’s why I want to come back to that in a second. After this is past America, Sam lays down his dictatorship. The people are thrilled with him super thrilled that they walk him back to his door like it’s a first date. Everything’s going very well. It’s all very joy. He’s a very popular little champion. However, there are some people in Rome that are not so happy with the situation. And you’d be right if he gets it. Those people are the sense.

Dr G  44:58

I mean, I just got voted Didn’t I thought I was gonna have at least I don’t know, more than a year and a half to like, go around do my business. Yes. Got to build this building that’s going to take longer than this time. Yeah, so

Dr Rad  45:09

they’re furious. So in response, they remove members from his tribe.

Dr G  45:16

Oh, and lucky. Yeah. Okay.

Dr Rad  45:19

And I also increased his taxes eight times over. Wow, ouch, ouch, ouch. Okay, well, you

Dr G  45:27

can live with the power of the senses in some ways, but you didn’t think far enough ahead, members.

Dr Rad  45:32

So this means that he has lost the right to vote at this point,

Dr G  45:35

it was gonna say Sophie is removed from his tribe is he placed into a different tribe?

Dr Rad  45:40

I’m going to come back to that in just a moment. No.

Dr G  45:45

So this is making him a non citizen.

Dr Rad  45:47

Well, it’s a weird, it’s kind of like a weird Limbo land, in that he still pays taxes. But he’s lost a lot of the political rights that come with that, gee, it’s like being a woman in almost any period in history up until the last 100 years.

Dr G  46:03

Anyway, maybe we can turn America into an ally.

Dr Rad  46:06

Now America is apparently endures this all very well. I mean, this is quite the blow

Dr G  46:11

really rich. Eight times his usual tax rate. Come on. I mean, furious. Leave me alone.

Dr Rad  46:19

Exactly. Yeah. But look, he apparently is like, Look, I know where this is coming from. It’s coming from a place of hurt and trauma. And he doesn’t say, but he doesn’t understand why he’s being targeted this way. So he’s just like, I’m going to be going about it. Now, that patricians come into the story. The patricians are not actually happy with the Office of sensor being restricted.

Dr G  46:42

Well, of course not. I mean, it’s part of their purview.

Dr Rad  46:46

They are the ones that are sense. I

Dr G  46:47

mean, it is weird, because he’s kind of gone rogue, because we’re Marcus is a patrician himself. The weird part seems to be some sort of fractionalization going on here between the ones that get into the censorship and the ones that don’t well,

Dr Rad  46:59

I mean, we did talk to him being an ally. Maybe he’s one of these weird patricians that I know believes in equality. Maybe there’s other people like him so much, not a quality that’s too far out, I mean, more a quality, greater equality and getting close, but not too close. Anyway. However, they also are not impressed by the way that the censors have chosen to react to his

Dr G  47:24

the patricians is the patricians

Dr Rad  47:25

with a great yeah, not impressed by the home first by America is all the sensors that they just don’t

Dr G  47:31

like. And you know, what I’m annoyed, annoyed about this, this. And this,

Dr Rad  47:35

however, they kind of look at it is like a column a column B situation are pros and cons. They’re like, look, we know that we’re going to be living our lives under the power of the sensors for longer than any of us could ever possibly personally hold the office. And that is dangerous. Okay, what does that mean? Well, I guess it means that you’re always going to be under the, you’re gonna be under the power of multiple senses in your life, if you live a decent, okay,

Dr G  48:05

but you could only be sense of once at the very most, if you like, that’s the

Dr Rad  48:09

implication, or at least, if you hold the office, you’re only going to hold it for a set amount of time, you know, so I think that’s what it’s trying to say.

Dr G  48:21

But yeah, the legacy of the censorship exceeds those

Dr Rad  48:25

exactly the exact wording here because it is a little tricky. Maybe we’ll have a translation of it anyway, says, since each of them perceived that he should be subjected to the censor for a longer period and more frequently than he should hold the census office. They recognise the danger. I think that’s what it means. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so then, there’s, the people are completely outraged that America is being treated this way. And nobody could have stopped them at this point in time from attacking the senses, ripping them limb from limb, except Medicus. himself, of course, being very zen. Yeah. Now this is where so this is roughly where I think we come to the end of 434 BC. This is roughly where I thought it might be a good moment to pause and think about this position of sense. Because it was actually not that long ago, that we were talking about holding the census for the first time in a while. And yet, all of a sudden, here we

Dr G  49:30

are, and it’s now time for Census reform. Yeah.

Dr Rad  49:32

Now, as with all the offices that we talk about, in this early Republican period, if you ever look up the office of sensor, you will see the same thing, which is that the practice vary greatly in the early periods. It’s not as set in stone as it will become later on, where they you know, they hold it for for, you know, a limited amount of time they hold it, you know, this frequently, that sort of thing. So there’s definitely some variation happening here. However, the general gist of being a sensor. It’s not just all about data collection.

Dr G  50:04

Oh, that’s a real shame. Just

Dr Rad  50:07

when you thought we were about to get statistical weed out. Is it religious? Yeah, well, it the sensors job is to basically overlook the morals of the community. Okay, which is why I think the patricians feel the way that they do about, you know, a potential threat that this division holds. Which is funny, because it got created officially because the consoles didn’t want to do

Dr G  50:34

that, like I’m sick of this paperwork. Yeah. Create a new position for this bureaucracy.

Dr Rad  50:38

There’s a lesson in there somewhere, anyway. But basically, yes, at some point it they develop the capacity to, since you’re somebody I’m trying to over exaggerate my pronunciation of that. So it’s very clear, I’m not saying since so, since you love somebody, the idea being that if they did that, then someone would be removed from their tribe, and could potentially, therefore lose the right to vote, because that is how you vote in your tribe. But you still get the incredible pleasure of paying your taxes. Now, this is the this is the

Dr G  51:13

scenario taxation without representation. Exactly.

Dr Rad  51:17

But you presumably did something to deserve that punishment. So I guess it’s like, if we send people to prison, if you look at how historically we’ve treated criminals, sometimes they lose, you know, certain rights, not just freedom, but

Dr G  51:32

the censorship functions as a way of policing, essentially, who gets to do what, in particular areas of society?

Dr Rad  51:41

Yes, absolutely. Now, technically speaking, I think you could be placed in another tribe. But if they’re obviously removing you from your tribe, because you’ve done something wrong, that is,

Dr G  51:50

well, the idea that you could join another tribe, it’s not like, like, you should only be in your tribe, your tribe. So if they remove you from your tribe, your only options are really to go back into your tribe, when they agree that it’s okay to do so. So like, you can be like, Well, I’m just going to draw those guys over there. Like this is not your tribe.

Dr Rad  52:11

Yes, exactly. So that’s what we can see happening here in this situation. I think it’s definitely definitely the first case, we’ve come across this sort of thing happening now, eventually, not sure about at this point in time, maybe at this point in time. They also supervise membership of the Senate. So they also Yeah, police their behaviour and that sort of thing. This is

Dr G  52:33

something that the the senses are famous for, definitely, I’m not sure that we can really confirm one way or the other for that period.

Dr Rad  52:40

It seems unlikely to me that that would be the case, but just mentioning it, because you know, it’s part of the office, we might do a special episode on them later on. And they could also take the horse and status from equestrian. Oh, not the Bernese. So

Dr G  52:56

take Matilda, how do they get to battle now

Dr Rad  53:00

not like beauty, it’s a whole different story. And eventually, they will

Dr G  53:06

know Mr. Ed.

Dr Rad  53:10

Eventually, they’re going to recruit even more powwow where they’re involved in kind of business dealings for room. So they can also oversee the leasing of revenue producing public property like lands, forest and mines, they can also arrange for the collection of revenue, they could sell the right to collect taxes to the public colony, okay, not a popular group of people in Roman society, and do all sorts of things like that. And so they eventually will get all that kind of power. But again, at this point in time, I don’t think they have that kind of power, nor does room have quite the resources that would require this sort of thing. So this is, I think, a much later part of their role. Yeah,

Dr G  53:55

yeah. I think we’re seeing the stirrings of the what will become this kind of censorship with all of this kind of particular power? Yeah. Beginning to come into it’s for clearly there’s something the suggestion here is that there’s an overstepping of the expectation of what they would do. Yeah. And there’s an attempt to curtail that. Yeah. And so, and this is generally how rules develop anyway, it’s like people do something and you’re like, No, no, not that. Yeah. And then they put it on a stone being like, not that Yeah. And you’re like, oh, man, exactly.

Dr Rad  54:28

loves it. I always think if Augustus wanted to get his greedy little paws on the power of particular office, then they had something going on for it. And this is no exception.

Dr G  54:40

Oh, no. The censorship by the time we get to Augustus the censorship is incredibly powerful. Yeah. But yeah, what’s actually happening here in what for 34 BC. It’s a little bit more up for grabs, I think. Yeah. So

Dr Rad  54:53

I’m going to therefore close the curtains on another very confusing, mystifying Oh, yeah, in Rome’s history Goodbye, 434 and hello to the partial pick all right, Dr. G. So the partial pick is where we sum up. Howard has been tracking for the last year or two. They have five categories. Each category has 10 Golden Eagles up for grabs, meaning that they’re gonna get a score out of a total of

Dr G  55:29

50. Yeah. It’s a struggle. I mean, humanity’s for a reason. struggle is real. Okay. Okay. So row, I’m not anticipating a great score. But let’s see what happens. First category military cloud. Well, okay, actually, there was that whole siege and sneaky tunnel system. Yeah, that was pretty impressive. Absolutely. If you believe such tales, which I do. Read it in Libya, it must be true.

Dr Rad  56:00

Yes, it was. I think that’s gotta be what like a six baby? Well, I

Dr G  56:03

mean, just for the sheer effort involved and give them an aid. It’s like a total system like a mine under a wall to get into a citadel. Like, that’s not easy work while you’re keeping up the facade of a real siege at the front of this.

Dr Rad  56:17

It does make you wonder, given that people have been very ill with plague recently. How are they so many people that you can divert their attention? Is it just one guy throwing rocks?

Dr G  56:29

They’re fleeing the soft leavings that they’ve created along the way.

Dr Rad  56:35

Nice, nice, very elegantly phrase. Alright, so we’re gonna go with look, I think eight might be too much, I think, Okay, let’s go to seven.

Dr G  56:41

All right. 777 is okay. Our next category is diplomacy.

Dr Rad  56:47

Well, as we always say, There’s rarely diplomacy when there’s warfare in Rome. And I don’t think that there is really anything to talk about.

Dr G  56:56

It does seem like everybody was like, Don’t drag me into your mess. And then there was like, maybe we could limit the powers of the censorship. And they were like, No, we punish you. So it doesn’t seem like there’s anybody negotiating anything

Dr Rad  57:09

around here? Not really. So yeah, I’m gonna unfortunately, give them a zero for that. Yeah,

Dr G  57:13

I think that’s fair. Yeah, I agree. Next category is expansion.

Dr Rad  57:19

No.

Dr G  57:22

I mean, expanded out mines.

Dr Rad  57:23

Well, look, I mean, they have captured for DNA. This is true. However, cDNA was technically

Dr G  57:32

there’s typically they had already captured it. Yeah. Like a couple of years ago.

Dr Rad  57:36

Yeah. So look, I’ll give them a one. recapturing there. Okay. Yeah.

Dr G  57:42

All right. We’re tourists. Hmm, how much of a man? Are you ancient Rome? Let’s find out together?

Dr Rad  57:48

Well, I mean, there are some things going on here. I mean, we do have quite a number of dictators to choose from. does it amount to we to say this is yeah,

Dr G  57:57

lots of men in positions of power. How much we it was, I mean, it seems like Rome and chaos,

Dr Rad  58:02

not it. Whilst there are some clever ideas and that sort of thing. I don’t know that anything is quite at that level Americas

Dr G  58:09

is quite popular. And I wonder why that might be. And I’m not sure that we’ve received enough information to be really sure whether it’s from

Dr Rad  58:19

iCloud class traitor.

Dr G  58:21

I do love the class traitor. Join us in the working class. I

Dr Rad  58:25

have no idea honestly, what he’s up to. And Sibelius the dictator from the previous year like he has won an impressive victory, but there’s no mention of like, a triumph for I mean, like it’s through siege. I don’t think the Romans respond as well to siege warfare of that nature. Unless you see Besiege them capture the city, and whilst you’re capturing it, do something badass.

Dr G  58:53

I don’t know the requirements are so high.

Dr Rad  58:55

I don’t know. I don’t I’m not getting a strong sense of that. Like he’s being held up as any particular. Yeah, we’re not really sure. Yeah, yeah. If there’s a question mark. I think we’ll leave it if in doubt, leave it out.

Dr G  59:09

If it’s a maybe it’s a no, yeah. And finally. Oh, it’s just like, it’s just like online dating. It’s the citizens go.

Dr Rad  59:20

Okay. Well, kinda in the sense that,

Dr G  59:25

I mean, they seem pretty happy with this since Oriole reforms, like the plague

Dr Rad  59:29

seems to have lifted Oh, that’s good news. There’s their victory with feed and a which is good for them, obviously. And then there’s also yes, as you say, the censorship thing, and the fact that war didn’t happen again. Oh, yeah. It could have you know, it could have been really bad

Dr G  59:46

or absence of

Dr Rad  59:47

war is a huge positive. They wouldn’t be ready for it. Oh, yes, troops were coming for them. And then all of a sudden, they weren’t. Yeah, even though they’re mad about the fact that their champion has been treated bad only, I don’t know that that really affects their quality of life so much. So, I think to say maybe like a three or four, maybe

Dr G  1:00:07

it’s fair to say on the balance, it’s like maybe a five. I mean, they had to do some generous military work, but they also didn’t get invaded by all of a trio. So yeah,

Dr Rad  1:00:16

look, why don’t we say 404? Okay, well, I significantly better score has eventuated. But mind you, we have been doing two years

Dr G  1:00:28

together. Yeah, they’ve got chance for redemption, two years of history.

Dr Rad  1:00:32

So for these two years effigy, we have a total of 12 Golden Eagles. Well done. So not passing.

Dr G  1:00:43

Still subpar. But there we have.

Dr Rad  1:00:45

And you know what? I think we have fulfilled our promise. I think there was more cheerful stuff in this episode than the last episode. There you go. We’re on the up and up. Yeah, indeed.

Dr G  1:00:54

Well, it has been an absolute pleasure as always to chat with you. Thanks. Thanks. Until next time,

Dr Rad  1:01:02

indeed. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. This episode we’d like to give a special shout out to Pete and and Gordon, who shattered us some coffees using our Kofi account. That’s right, you can support our show by buying us a coffee with a one off donation on Kofi whenever you feel like it. However, we do, of course, have a Patreon account as well. And in return for becoming a Patreon you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and getting to see us in action in some of our recording sessions. However, we love to see reviews and nice comments in social media. So follow that’s a bit beyond your means. That’s completely fine. Or you can do it old school, you can actually tell someone in conversation, just slip it in subtly, partial history and it’s a great podcast. It’s how Augustus would do it. The master manipulator well until next time, we are yours in ancient Rome.

1:02:38

Hello, my name is Thom Dinos, and I’m the creator of the Delicious Legacy Podcast. Join me to time travel together through food to explore archaea, astronomical mysteries, unknown herbs and long lost recipes that will take you to the lavish feasts of ancient Greece, all the way through to Ancient China and in the kitchens of kings in mediaeval Europe, who made the first reason why how beer was made. What is garum, silphium, and can I find these now, through the accounts of ancient writers and talking to experts have a dinner we find out so subscribe or follow now wherever you get your podcasts, including Apple podcasts, Google and Spotify. And listen for free, to the Delicious Legacy Podcast.