Sean Illing is joined by reporter Jeff Sharlet, whose new book The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War takes readers on the ground across America right now, as all kinds of people seem to be preparing for a violent fight with other Americans. They discuss the killing of Ashli Babbitt on Jan. 6 and how the story of her death has evolved, the religious nature of some "fringe" political beliefs, and what life is like living in what Jeff calls "the Trumpocene."

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Jeff Sharlet (@JeffSharlet), reporter; author 

References: 

• The Undertow: Scenes from a Slow Civil War by Jeff Sharlet (W.W. Norton; 2023)
• The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power by Jeff Sharlet (Harper Collins; 2008)
• The Anatomy of Fascism by Robert O. Paxton (Vintage; 2005)
• A Brief History of Fascist Lies by Federico Finchelstein (University of California; 2020)
• "Ashli Babbitt a martyr? Her past tells a more complex story" by Michael Biesecker (AP; Jan. 3, 2022)
• "January 6 Was Only the Beginning" by Jeff Sharlet (Vanity Fair; June 22, 2022)
• "Man who rested feet on desk in Pelosi's office on Jan. 6 found guilty on 8 counts" by Hannah Rabinowitz and Holms Lybrand (CNN; Jan. 23)
• "Marjorie Taylor Greene got into a screaming match with Rep. Cheney over 'Jewish space lasers' comment" by Azmi Haroun (Insider; Oct. 21, 2021)
• "If you see an all-black American flag, what does that mean?" by Matt Gregory and Mia Salenetri (WUSA9; Nov. 12, 2021)
• "What does the end of Roe mean for IVF?" by Bridgit Bowden (Wisconsin Public Radio; July 6, 2022)
• "The Blast That Changed Everything" by Preston Schmitt and Doug Erickson (On Wisconsin magazine; Summer 2020)

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Most of us don’t know how to truly listen, and it’s causing all sorts of problems. Sean Illing is joined by journalist Kate Murphy, the author of You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters, to discuss what it means to be a good listener, the problems that are caused when we don’t listen to each other, and the positive impacts on our health when we do.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Kate Murphy, author,You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters

References: 

• You’re Not Listening: What You’re Missing and Why It Matters by Kate Murphy (Celadon Books, 2020)
• “This is your brain on communication” by Uri Hasson (TED, 2016)

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Sean Illing is joined by Anand Giridharadas, author of The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy. Together they discuss how polarity is a threat to our democracy, the organizing efforts that are effective, and why there's hope for a less divisive future in America.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Anand Giridharadas (@AnandWrites), author 

References: 

• The Persuaders: At the Front Lines of the Fight for Hearts, Minds, and Democracy by Anand Giridharadas (Penguin Random House, 202)
• Winners Take All: The Elite Charade of Changing the World (Penguin Random House, 2022)
• Amanda Marcotte
• “Meet the woman behind Libs of TikTok, secretly fueling the right’s outrage machine” by Taylor Lorenz (The Washington Post, Apr. 19th, 2022) 
• Anat Shenker-Osorio
• People’s Action Institute 

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Rep. Katie Porter became well-known for using a whiteboard and asking tough questions during Congressional hearings. Her frank questions resonated with the public because they represented the concerns of so many Americans. In this episode, she joins Sean Illing to discuss her "brand" of authenticity, the problem with having so many millionaires in Congress, and her new book, I Swear: Politics Is Messier Than My Minivan.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Rep. Katie Porter (@RepKatiePorter), U.S. Representative from the 47th Congressional District in Orange County, California.

References: 

• I Swear: Politics Is Messier Than My Minivan by Representative Katie Porter (Penguin Random House, 2023)

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• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Guest host Alissa Wilkinson talks with Dorothy Fortenberry, a co-showrunner, executive producer, and writer on Extrapolations, the new star-studded anthology series on Apple TV+ that imagines the ravages of climate change deeper and deeper into the future. Alissa and Dorothy discuss the challenges of making film and television about the climate crisis, the role that religion plays on the show and in addressing the emotional responses to climate change in our lives, and how climate change can rob us not only of our future — but of our past.

Host: Alissa Wilkinson (@alissamarie), senior culture writer, Vox

Guest: Dorothy Fortenberry (@Dorothy410berry), writer/executive producer, Extrapolations on Apple TV+

References: 

• Extrapolations on Apple TV+
• laudato-si.html">"Laudato Si': On Care for our Common Home," encyclical of Pope Francis (May 24, 2015)
• "A Review: The Lotus Paradox at Warehouse Theatre" (Jan. 31, 2022)
• "Latin Mass, women priests, celibacy? Climate change will make all the church's arguments pointless" by Dorothy Fortenberry (America; Oct. 27, 2021)

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This episode was made by: 

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• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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What would drive someone to renounce all their possessions, relationships, and ambitions to join a religious community? Sean talks with Zena Hitz, whose new book A Philosopher Looks at the Religious Life explores this question — drawing from her own experience. They discuss the occasionally perplexing relationship between faith and reason, why Hitz thinks the act of renunciation is the pinnacle of Christian belief, and why the radicalism at the heart of Christianity seems so absent from mainstream practice.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Zena Hitz, (@zenahitz) author; tutor, St. John's College

References: 

• A Philosopher Looks at the Religious Life by Zena Hitz (Cambridge; 2023)
• Lost In Thought: The Hidden Pleasures of an Intellectual Life by Zena Hitz (Princeton; 2020)
• The Madonna House in Combermere, Ontario, Canada
• h.htm">Confessions by St. Augustine (401 AD)
• Crime and Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky (1866)

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This episode was made by: 

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Guest host Sigal Samuel talks with professor of philosophy and law Nita Farahany about her new book The Battle for Your Brain. In it, Farahany details the new brain-scanning tech that has already arrived, and the risks this poses to our privacy and freedom of thought. Sigal and Nita discuss what this technology can currently do (and what it can't), how new devices might be used by corporations or governments to infringe on our rights, and the prospect of using new technologies to rid ourselves of painful or traumatic memories — even, potentially, before they've been formed.

Host: Sigal Samuel (@SigalSamuel), Senior Reporter, Vox

Guest: Nita Farahany (@NitaFarahany), author; professor of philosophy & Robinson O. Everett Professor of Law, Duke University

References: 

• The Battle for Your Brain: Defending the Right to Think Freely in the Age of Neurotechnology by Nita A. Farahany (St. Martin's; 2023)
• "Your brain may not be private much longer" by Sigal Samuel (Vox; March 17)
• "BGU develops wearable advanced warning system for epileptic seizures" (Jerusalem Post; Sept. 29, 2020)
• "Elon Musk shows off updates to his brain chips and says he's going to install one in himself when they are ready" by Ashley Capoot (CNBC; Dec. 1, 2022)
• "Brain-implant companies balk at moves to regulate their nascent tech" by Sarah McBride (Los Angeles Times; Feb. 19)
• "NHS trials headset that claims to zap depression" by Katie Prescott (The Times; Jan. 23)
• "Australian man uses brain implant to send texts from his iPad" by Kristin Houser (Freethink; Nov. 12, 2022)
• "Is 'brain fingerprinting' a breakthrough or a sham?" by Russell Brandom (The Verge; Feb. 2, 2015)
• "China Claims It's Scanning Workers' Brainwaves to Increase Efficiency and Profits" by Samantha Cole (VICE; May 1, 2018)
• "Incriminating Thoughts" by Nita A. Farahany (Stanford Law Review, vol. 64 (2); Feb. 2012)
• John Stuart Mill, "On Liberty" (1859)
• Immanuel Kant, images.html">Critique of Practical Reason (1788)
• "Non-conscious brain modulation may help PTSD patients forget their fears" by Brooks Hays (UPI; Feb. 23, 2021)
• No Mud, No Lotus: The Art of Transforming Suffering by Thich Nhat Hanh (Parallax Press; 2019)

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This episode was made by: 

• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Brandon McFarland
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Will the Dominion Voting Systems lawsuit against Fox News be a watershed moment? Is the media industry beyond repair? Sean Illing is joined by media reporter Brian Stelter, the former host of CNN’s Reliable Sources and the author of Hoax. Together, they reflect on the relationship of news, entertainment, and politics and what the consequences of the Dominion suit might be.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Brian Stelter, (@brianstelter) author; former TV news host; media reporter

References: 

• Hoax by Brian Stelter (Simon & Schuster, 2021)
• Top of the Morning: Inside the Cutthroat World of Morning TV by Brian Stelter (Grand Central, 2019)
• “How Not to Cover a Bank Run” by Brian Stelter (The Atlantic, March 2023)
• “I Never Truly Understood Fox News Until Now” by Brian Stelter (The Atlantic, February 2023)
• “Mass Delusion in America” by Jeffrey Goldberg (The Atlantic, January 2021)
• Brian Stelter’s Substack

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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Sean Illing speaks with Matthew Jones, historian of science and technology, and co-author (with data scientist Chris Wiggins) of the new book How Data Happened. They discuss the surprisingly long history of data from the 18th century to today, in service of explaining how we wound up in a world where our personal information is mined by giant corporations for profit. They talk about how the allure of measurement and precision spread from astronomy to the social sciences, why advertising became so bound to the operation of the internet, and how we can imagine a more democratic future for us and our data, given the unprecedented power of today's tech companies.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Matthew L. Jones (@nescioquid), author; James R. Barker Professor of Contemporary Civilization, Columbia University

References: 

• How Data Happened: A History from the Age of Reason to the Age of Algorithms by Chris Wiggins and Matthew L. Jones (W.W. Norton; 2023)
• "How Alan Turing Cracked The Enigma Code" (Imperial War Museum)
• Manufacturing Consent: The Political Economy of the Mass media by Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky (1988)
• "The manipulation of the American mind: Edward Bernays and the birth of public relations" by Richard Gunderman (The Conversation; July 9, 2015)
• On Herbert Simon (The Economist; Mar. 20, 2009)
• The Age of Surveillance Capitalism by Shoshana Zuboff (Profile; 2019)
• Jeffrey Hammerbacher quoted in "This Tech Bubble Is Different" by Ashlee Vance (Bloomberg Businessweek; Apr. 14, 2011)

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• Producer: Erikk Geannikis
• Engineers: Patrick Boyd & Brandon McFarland
• Editorial Director, Vox Talk: A.M. Hall

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Is our society's fixation with success hindering our ability to find humility? Sean Illing speaks with Costica Bradatan about his new book In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility, which explores failure through the lives of historical figures like Gandhi and the philosopher Simone Weil. They discuss the benefits of engaging with our limits and what we can learn from those who've embraced failure.

Host: Sean Illing (@seanilling), host, The Gray Area

Guest: Costica Bradatan, Professor at Texas Tech University and Honorary Research Professor of Philosophy at University of Queensland in Australia, Religion/Philosophy editor for the Los Angeles Review of Books, and author of In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility.

References: 

• In Praise of Failure: Four Lessons in Humility by list.php?author=47108"> Costica Bradatan (Harvard University Press, 2023)
• The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus, translated by Justin O'Brien (Vintage Books, 1991)
• The Birth of Tragedy by Friedrich Nietzsche, translated by Walter Kaufman (1872)
• The Trouble with Being Born by E.M. Cioran, translated by Richard Howard (Arcade Publishing, 1973)

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This episode was made by: 

• Engineer: Patrick Boyd
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