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Submit ReviewAll three hosts are back this week, and the discussion ranges from favorite bookstores to favorite window managers, with a healthy dose of mental health in between.
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TranscriptFire the Stage Manager!
[00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.
[00:00:04] Christina: You are listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren, and I am joined as always by Brett. Uh, by Brett Terpstra. I was gonna say Brett Severns. Guntzel. Uh, would be, which would be funny. Now
[00:00:15] Jeffrey: Big news.
[00:00:16] Christina: News. Your two favorite podcast host got married? No, uh, by Jeff Severns. Guntzel and Bre Terpstra.
[00:00:23] Christina: How are you guys doing?
[00:00:24] Brett: So well tired, but good.
[00:00:27] Jeffrey: I, uh, I tore my meniscus at, um, at a bookstore,
[00:00:35] Brett: What, uh, what, what bookstore
[00:00:37] Jeffrey: uh, I
[00:00:38] Jeffrey: was
[00:00:38] Brett: a bookstore over the Jungle Gym?
[00:00:40] Jeffrey: no. Every bookstore I realize is ableist because you can’t get down to that bottom shelf if. You know, if you have any trouble like squatting or bending over or eye problems, whatever. So I was, I was at Dreary Lane Books in Grand Moray, Minnesota, which is right on Lake Superior.
[00:00:57] Jeffrey: It’s an amazing, tiny, [00:01:00] independent bookstore. And it is a great example of how good curation can make a small bookstore feel big. And I like to go there. We go there every spring break, uh, to Grand Mare. And I like to go to that bookstore and look at every book, um, just scan every shelf. And I was squatting down to scan the bottom shelf and something July 4th like happened in my left knee and I tipped over.
[00:01:26] Christina: Oh no.
[00:01:29] Jeffrey: And then a couple days later when I’m home, it swelled up super bad. And I went to, by the way, orthopedic Urgent Care. Right. That’s a thing. And. And that is amazing. And if you go to the rich suburbs, uh, nobody’s there. And so you get right in. So anyway, how am I doing? I’m actually doing good, but my knee hurts and I, I, uh, it’s been pointed out that it’s a, it’s the nerdiest thing ever to tear it at a bookstore.
[00:01:55] Christina: Well,
[00:01:56] Brett: the show notes, what was the name of that book?
[00:01:58] Jeffrey: Uh, Drury [00:02:00] Lane. D r u r y. Like the muffin man. Yep, exactly.
[00:02:05] Brett: Yeah, I, I, I figured it’s, I love independent bookstores, so, we’ll, we’ll put ’em in the show notes. Maybe, maybe someone will be like, Hey, I want to go to the place where Jeff, uh, Torres Meniscus,
[00:02:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:02:17] Brett: if you, have you guys ever been to literati in Chicago?
[00:02:22] Jeffrey: God, I lived in Chicago, but no, when, how long has it been
[00:02:24] Brett: I have no idea. A while, but I don’t know, at least five years, maybe 20 for all I know. But great bookstore,
So quick note from the editor. The bookstore I’m talking about here is actually in Ann Arbor, and I visited on the same trip as I went to Chicago and I mix up my locations. But the reason Jeff had never heard of it is because it’s in Michigan.
[00:02:47] Christina: no. The one, the ones that I know, and I know Seattle has some, but I’m gonna be honest with you, Seattle’s a city kind of sucks and.
[00:02:53] Brett: has,
[00:02:54] Christina: Portland has Powells. I, yeah,
[00:02:56] Jeffrey: they have
[00:02:56] Christina: say, I was gonna say, Portland has Powells and then in New York it’s Strand [00:03:00] and, and that’s just like the best, um, like
[00:03:04] Jeffrey: I was just getting into this with someone like Powells is Strand, but better somehow.
[00:03:09] Christina: Yeah, agreed. But, but, but it’s one of those things like, like, like the strand was like not far from where I worked. So I might
[00:03:16] Jeffrey: Yeah. Amazing.
[00:03:17] Mental Health Corner
[00:03:17] Christina: I might have told the story before, but I had this, it was like the greatest day ever where, and it didn’t start out that way. Uh, I think this is actually a good segue to Mental health Corner.
[00:03:25] Christina: I got off the subway, it was like 8 45 in the morning, which for me was early cuz I never got to work like in time for the 9:00 AM meeting. That was just sort of a known thing that I was gonna either be on the call or I’d be coming in late. Cuz like, I just didn’t, I just was not a morning person. So unless I was on TV at.
[00:03:44] Christina: 7:00 AM or 6:00 AM or something. I was not in the office early, get off the subway, and I just like had this overwhelming sense of dread and I was like, I can’t do it today. I can’t do it. I can’t go in, I can’t do it. And so I made up an [00:04:00] excuse because back then, and this was like six years ago, like you quit seven years ago.
[00:04:04] Christina: Like you couldn’t say, oh, I’m having a mental, I need a mental health day.
[00:04:08] Christina: So, um, I get, I, I make up an excuse, like I was like, oh, I just threw up or something or another. I was like, I’ve gotta go back home. But instead of going back home, I was like, I don’t really wanna go back home.
[00:04:20] Christina: I know I can’t do anything else. Like, uh, like I can’t do work today, but I don’t know what else I could do. So I went to the Strand and I walked around and like, as soon as it opened, like I had to wait like a couple minutes and I walked around there for a while. I wound up buying a couple of books and then I found like a 10:00 AM showing of, of, of Spotlight, like, cuz that was in theaters then at, at, at the, at the, uh, Regal In in Union
[00:04:43] Jeffrey: Is that the one about the Boston Globe’s coverage of the sex scandals in the church.
[00:04:47] Christina: Yes. And it’s a, just a fantastic journalism movie and it’s just a great movie all around. So I see that movie at like 10:00 AM in a fairly empty theater. And keep in mind, I’m, I’m within blocks of my office, so I, at this point I’m like, Hmm, [00:05:00] I got lunch, but I was like, Hmm, you’re gonna have to go home because somebody will see you.
[00:05:05] Christina: So then I like went to Prospect Park for the afternoon and then I went home and it was like the greatest day.
[00:05:11] Jeffrey: That’s nice. That’s
[00:05:13] Christina: like I, I, I played hooky, but it was like it was much needed. And then like, I, I was able to come back to work like the next day and like actually be able to function. So,
[00:05:21] Jeffrey: I, in my experience in New York, we lived there for like three or four years. Like those days where you’re like, fuck it, I’m walking around. Like it’s got that sort of Ferris Bueller’s whimsy to it, you know? It’s such cuz you can go anywhere and you can do any kind of thing and it’s so great. Anyway. I love that.
[00:05:38] Christina: Anyway, so that, that’s, that, that’s my like bookstore slash mental health Treat yourself story. Go, go, go to a bookstore. Go to the go, go to the movies, go to the park.
[00:05:50] Jeffrey: Yes. The. Oh man. So I used to work in warehouses. It’s pretty hard to feel bad about calling in sick to a warehouse. Um, [00:06:00] and I did one day and it was a, it was a music distribution warehouse. It primarily distributed independent labels related to, or adjacent to reco disk, which had like Frank Zappas whole catalog.
[00:06:12] Jeffrey: And they had like evidence, which had like sunrise whole catalog. It was just an amazing warehouse and we would get amazing visitors. Henry Rollins came once to talk to us when he, he started this really cool label with Rick Rubin called Infinite Zero back in like 96 or seven. And it was just meant to get stuff back into print that was most important to just the two of them.
[00:06:32] Jeffrey: Um, and Henry Rollins, for all the weirdness of that dude came and addressed just the warehouse workers to tell us how much these albums and these CDs mean to him and how grateful he is that we’re helping to get them out into the world. That is classy.
[00:06:49] Christina: Yeah, it is.
[00:06:51] Jeffrey: And then, and then the other thing that happened was I called in sick one day and I learned at the end of the [00:07:00] day that Bootsy fucking Collins had visited the
[00:07:03] Brett: Oh, do you miss
[00:07:05] Jeffrey: who was a hero of mine. Going back to when I was a kid, that was my first concert, was Parliament Funkadelic like, and I loved him so much and I was so sad. And I have an autographed CD thanks to my friend Joe, but it doesn’t feel good. just reminds
[00:07:22] Jeffrey: me
[00:07:23] Christina: weren’t there.
[00:07:24] Jeffrey: I wasn’t doing anything wrong. It was a shitty warehouse job. Like I shouldn’t have been punished like that.
[00:07:28] Jeffrey: Bootsy Collins. I could have shook his hand. I could have just heard him, you know, talking. Yay.
[00:07:33] Brett: then you, you never missed another day again after
[00:07:36] Jeffrey: Yeah, no, I got fired about two weeks later. I, I, uh, I was, I was, uh, the first strike was the president of the company came into the warehouse and there was a vending machine right next to the door. And I was on the floor with my arm all the way up the vending machine trying to get a candy bar.
[00:07:54] Jeffrey: And he just looks at me and he goes, get out of there. And then a couple weeks after that, I organized a [00:08:00] pallet jack race where we would all just like, you could use ’em like scooters and the corporate meeting offices look down over the warehouse. And at one point I see in that window, like the entire administration leadership looking down on us, just like shaking their heads.
[00:08:15] Jeffrey: And so anyway, eventually I got fired, which was the right, right thing for them to do. Um, and, uh, anyhow, call in sick days.
[00:08:25] Brett: Sick days. Mental
[00:08:26] Jeffrey: I don’t have to do that anymore.
[00:08:28] Brett: All right, so speaking of mental health days, um, I, should I start, I.
[00:08:35] Jeffrey: Do it. I just wanna point out that Brett is talking to us as his cat is in the foreground, staring at him.
[00:08:41] Brett: staring me down.
[00:08:43] Christina: and and I’m like, I love your cat so much anyways. All right. Go on.
[00:08:46] Jeffrey: What are we talking about, Brett?
[00:08:47] Brett: okay, so the, the first update I have is, um, a week of microdosing mushrooms. Um, I wrote a blog post about this, [00:09:00] um, and things were going really well, uh, except l l did not appreciate that I was so publicly putting illegal substance use out on the internet where it could be linked forever.
[00:09:14] Brett: And, um, so I, I. Redacted the post. And, uh, I put up like a, Hey, you know, when things are decriminalized, I’ll tell you more about this, but I think it’s okay to talk about here. Maybe you won’t put anything in this show notes, but, um, I, I found the right dosage of the, the current strain of mushrooms I’m getting is about 200 milligrams a day.
[00:09:39] Brett: And at that dosage, um, like there’s no, no visuals, uh, y you don’t feel like you’re tripping at all. Like, that’s not the point. Um, but, uh, definite mood elevation, definite attention, um, improvements. And, uh, I feel emotions, a wider range of emotions than I usually [00:10:00] do. I get, I get more excited and more empathetic and, uh, it, it, it was going really well and it wasn’t causing any mania.
[00:10:10] Brett: But then I had this snafu where, so I went to the hospital back in December. With cuz my watch told me right, that, that my heart rate was elevated. And then, uh, the doctor at the last time, I got a refill for the first time, she’s like, I can’t give you a refill on Vivance until I hear from your doctor. And my doctor does not respond to messages or emails or calls even.
[00:10:42] Brett: Uh, the only way I’ve ever talked to him is to see him in person. Um, so fortunately I had a meeting, uh, an appointment coming up soon and I did, I went to see him after I had been off five for about three days. And he said, there’s no problem. Uh, like it was a [00:11:00] fluke that you were in the hospital. There’s no reason to stop your meds.
[00:11:03] Brett: And most cardiac events, uh, aren’t exacerbated by stimulants anyway. Um, So, uh, he, he, he said, sure, go ahead, uh, continue the Vince, I go back to my doctor who as I’ve mentioned before, is moving to another practice. And the in between her denying my refill and me getting approval from the doctor, she had officially left the practice and discharged me as a patient and could no longer fill my prescription.
[00:11:32] Brett: And so the only option was to go back to my doctor and ask him to fill it until I can see her again. And like I said, he doesn’t respond to anything, so I didn’t have a lot of hope. Um, I, I sent a message through the portal and I made a phone call and talked to a sympathetic nurse, and a day later he did come through and I got my Viva.
[00:11:54] Brett: But when I’m off Vivance for a few days and I take it, boom, manic episode. [00:12:00] So Thursday night I didn’t sleep at all. Um, released a whole new project. It, I love it. It’s great. Um, but.
[00:12:09] Jeffrey: I am not caught up on that.
[00:12:10] Brett: Yeah, I haven’t written about it yet. You’ll see it soon. Um, but in the, in, I slept last night, uh, pretty well. I think the manic episode was short-lived.
[00:12:22] Brett: Um, I don’t seem to be manic today, so it was like a one day cyc cyclo theia kind of event. So that’s where I’m at now. Coming, coming off a manic episode, have my vivance back, um, learning more and more about microdosing and getting really good results from it. To summarize, in summary,
[00:12:46] Jeffrey: That’s. Great. I was just talking to my cousin the other night about, uh, his experience microdosing and it’s super frustrating how far ahead of the laws, um, this particular thing is. You know, it’s [00:13:00] like really frustrating cuz it’s technically schedule one. It’s illegal to have, but everybody I know who has tried it and it’s five, six people have only reported for them very positive effects.
[00:13:13] Jeffrey: And that’s just, that’s a small sample
[00:13:15] Brett: I mean the, the medical community though is very much interested in decriminalizing hallucinogenics so that they can continue what have proven to be very hopeful studies thus far. I think Washington, is it Washington that allows me medical use of mushrooms.
[00:13:34] Christina: I think so. I think so. I, I, I don’t know the details, if that sounds right, because most things
[00:13:40] Brett: I know there’s at least one state that lifted the ban on
[00:13:43] Christina: it might be Colorado,
[00:13:44] Brett: and maybe acid, maybe it was Colorado. They were, they were leaders in the weed decriminalization.
[00:13:50] Jeffrey: I think it is. In fact, I’m, I’m looking at a Colorado public radio story called Stressed Out. Busy Moms say Microdosing mushrooms makes life easier [00:14:00] and brighter. Um, and it is, yeah, it’s, it’s great. And I just wanna read one of these sentences, mommies, who microdose are among the fastest growing groups of followers send us mommies, who microdose and, and also the photos in this are by my old colleague, Hart Vandenberg, who’s a wonderful photographer and a wonderful man.
[00:14:18] Jeffrey: I put it in the show notes.
[00:14:20] Christina: here. All right. He here. Here’s where it’s decriminalized. It is decriminalized. And, and this is according to the Wikipedia page, which is the status of psycho, uh, cylo mushrooms. Um, and then they have like possession sale, transport, cultivation, and then the notes. And so the United States just for possession.
[00:14:37] Christina: Sorry, let me scroll down to where this is. I really do hate Wikipedia as the, the way they do tables, honestly. Um, in the future, I will use chat g p T for this because I bet it will be in a, in a prettier way. All right. It is illegal, but decriminalized in Seattle, Washington, and Arbor, Michigan. Oakland and Santa Cruz, California, [00:15:00] Summerville and Cambridge, Massachusetts, Oregon.
[00:15:02] Christina: So the whole state of Oregon and Washington, DC and it’s legal in Colorado,
[00:15:07] Brett: All
[00:15:07] Jeffrey: Oh, okay.
[00:15:09] Christina: decriminalized in Seattle. Um, but, but it’s interesting that it’s just Seattle. So I’m like, okay, is it just the city of Seattle? Is it like the other, probably is just the city. Um, and, and it’s decriminalized in Ann Arbor because, you know, you gotta, you got, you, you gotta like let the, the, the rich like coy toy folks, um, have access, but also, I mean, honestly makes sense I guess from like a medical
[00:15:33] Brett: It’s a, it’s a big, yeah, it’s a big college town with a big medical program,
[00:15:38] Christina: right? Yeah. That, that’s what I’m saying. So that, that makes sense. Ok. Oakland and Santa Cruz. Santa Cruz. I can see Oakland feels a little Okay. Um. Because there’s not, it’s not like there are good hospitals in Oakland. There are good hospitals in Palo Alto. Uh, there are good hospitals in San Francisco. I don’t know if there are good hospitals in Oakland.
[00:15:56] Christina: Um,
[00:15:57] Jeffrey: There’s gotta be good hospitals in Oakland.[00:16:00]
[00:16:00] Christina: I, I, I, I don’t think so, but, but I will let
[00:16:03] Jeffrey: Fuck you Oakland.
[00:16:04] Christina: I will let listeners correct me. Um, what I’m sure is wrong, uh, Summerville and Cambridge, so, you know, Cambridge makes, makes sense. All of Decriminalize, all of Oregon and Washington, DC within Colorado is just like fucking legal dude. We don’t care.
[00:16:17] Brett: I, it’s, it’s so weird that it’s by and large, so like city by city, like, is it just that hard to get state legislation passed that the cities, the city’s real, like, we’ll, just within our, with our, within our borders. You’re
[00:16:31] Christina: Probably, and, well, I don’t know, like in Washington, in Washington state, I feel like it’s something they could probably get passed, but I don’t know. But I also know the, the, the Seattle City Council, who’s I hate. And I, I think that they’re completely like incompetent and I’m so glad that the piece of shit, um, city councilwoman is not running again.
[00:16:55] Christina: Um, sorry, uh, to people who are, are fans of, uh, uh, [00:17:00] Kshama, um, Saan, but she fucking sucks. Um, but
[00:17:04] Jeffrey: coming after everybody Oakland, the city council.
[00:17:07] Christina: mostly just Seattle. I’ve just been pissed off at Seattle for the last couple of weeks to be totally honest with you. Um, but, uh, but, but my, my city councilwoman is a, she fucking sucks.
[00:17:16] Christina: She’s the fucking worst person in the world. Um, she’s like the, she, she, she’s the person who makes all socialists like, look bad because she’s such like a, like a, a, a, she’s so left. She’s like, it goes into just like a, it, it, it goes into parody status and literally like makes everything that we fight for like harder because of assholes like her.
[00:17:37] Christina: Um, but, uh, I, I, I can see it having no problem getting past in, in Seattle City Council. I would think they could do it statewide though. Maybe it just takes more time. I don’t know.
[00:17:50] Brett: Minnesota still hasn’t legalized weed, but we can have
[00:17:53] Jeffrey: We’re close.
[00:17:54] Brett: Yeah,
[00:17:55] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s, it’s pretty much, I mean, we have a completely Democratic government at this point, [00:18:00] and so it’s one of those things that’s just gonna kind of slide right through.
[00:18:03] Christina: Yeah. I, I read this, this deranged National Review article this week from some, like, I felt very sad for the family, but that was just like, wow, you guys are completely taking this out of like blaming the wrong thing who are going on this anti, like, legalization of marijuana scheme because their schizophrenic daughter who overdosed, it’s very sad.
[00:18:23] Christina: They blame her schizophrenia on the fact that she like smoked weed in college.
[00:18:27] Brett: huh?
[00:18:28] Christina: it’s like,
[00:18:29] Brett: Is that legit?
[00:18:31] Jeffrey: That’s not what they mean when they say gateway.
[00:18:32] Christina: that’s, that, that, that is legit.
[00:18:34] Brett: I’m told that my drug use may have caused my bipolar. Um, it, it, there are other members in my, on my mom’s side of the family that had bipolar, um, all of which are dead now. But, um, I was told by both my therapist and my psychiatrist that drug use, uh, in a young brain can lead to [00:19:00] complications such as bipolar disorder.
[00:19:02] Christina: I, I think, and I don’t know cause I’m not a doctor, but the studies and the things I’ve read are that if you have something that’s latent that’s already there, it, it’s possible that drug use at a young agent, it depends on the drug and, and, and marijuana. I think that there’s, there’s some dis, you know, there’s some confusion about this.
[00:19:19] Christina: I think it would have to be a lot, and I think that it would have to be a very specific circumstance. Could be the thing that could like maybe. Like set someone off, like unlock what’s already there. But I think that it’s like a, a massive reach to be like, this caused it, because as you said, like you’ve got other members in your family, you don’t know whether they did, you know, drugs or, or, or not.
[00:19:40] Christina: But it could also even come down to like, well this could be, you know, medications that you’re on. Um, could do things too. I think there’s some people who might be, you could make an argument, are predisposed, um, to cer to developing certain conditions. And maybe like drug use speeds it up, but,
[00:19:58] Brett: I had bipolar [00:20:00] symptoms, uh, in high school and I didn’t really get into, I was, I was drinking in high school, but I didn’t really get into like any massive drug use until I was like 16. So my first couple years of high school, I was definitely displaying symptoms of mania and depression, uh, before
[00:20:23] Christina: B before. Uh, there’s also, I think, an argument to be made that people who are, uh, you know, potentially, um, having symptoms might be seeking out drugs to
[00:20:34] Brett: Oh yeah. Yeah. See, that’s the thing is when I, when I think about like my, my heroin addiction, um, it very much like I sought it out because of my, my mental kind of imbalances, my needs, um, like the need for dopamine and the need for a kick, and the need for a way to numb my feelings. Like it was all very much like my [00:21:00] mental health led to that kind of addiction.
[00:21:04] Brett: I don’t think, I don’t think normal, happy people seek out heroin.
[00:21:08] Christina: right. No, I, I don’t think, like, yeah, I mean, I, and, and I don’t know who does, I mean, like, I think maybe you’re bored, maybe you know, you don’t know whatnot. Like, because I, I’ve certainly done certain drugs when like had nothing to do with like the state of my mental health, which is like, okay, fuck it.
[00:21:23] Brett: I wanted to do something dangerous. I get a real kick out of throwing caution to the wind. And I couldn’t think of anything more dangerous than, than doing hard drugs.
[00:21:33] Christina: no, fair enough.
[00:21:34] Brett: I get, it was real exciting. It still is. The thought of like, doing drugs is very much appealing to me. Like all of my bad experiences combined don’t make it any less appealing.
[00:21:48] Christina: Is, is it that you know that you could die? Is it the risk factor? Like, or, or is it the taboo in it being illegal and dangerous?
[00:21:54] Brett: it’s the taboo. And just knowing that it’s gonna feel really good and, and I can forget about [00:22:00] everything else for a little while. Not just problems, but forget about everything else and, and just focus on, on, you know, the drug. But
[00:22:10] Jeffrey: Did you, did you watch, um, fear of the Walking Dead?
[00:22:14] Christina: I did, I, I watched like the first few years.
[00:22:18] Jeffrey: was, so this character Nick played by Frank Delaine, who’s just amazing in this role. Um,
[00:22:24] Brett: right?
[00:22:24] Christina: Yeah.
[00:22:25] Jeffrey: and I, I was just curious if you had seen it, like there are all kinds of stages of his experience that get represented and he, I think he does a really powerful job of representing them. But there is this moment where he’s been almost like willing to be reckless when things are getting dangerous around his family.
[00:22:43] Jeffrey: And, and there’s a point where I believe he has to sort of make a decision and, and his family’s, you know, urging him not to, and he makes this point of like, I’ve been close to death so many times, like I’ve died. You know, he’s like, I’m, I’m ready. But he talked about sort of how [00:23:00] he kind of hit at that thing, about the risk of it.
[00:23:03] Jeffrey: Um, which is something that like, I don’t think people often understand about heroin addiction or heroin use is that, That sense of like walking up to the ultimate line potentially and not knowing how you’re gonna come out of it, is that, is that, I mean, does that resonate or is that kind of a fair reflection of
[00:23:20] Brett: some extent. I just, I’ve never, like, I started thinking about my mortality at a very young age and, um, I think I just kind of accepted that I’m gonna die one way or another. And it wasn’t necessarily a thrill to like seek out death, but it didn’t, it didn’t scare me. So I don’t think, I don’t think that was a reason I did it.
[00:23:43] Brett: I don’t think that was where the thrill came from. Um, but a side note, A D H D people, it’s, it’s been theorized that, um, we exist because in an evolutionary capacity, [00:24:00] um, A D H D people are the ones. Notice when things are wrong, fastest, and in situ, in pressure situations, we’re the ones that take control.
[00:24:10] Brett: We’re the ones that are like, suddenly come into our own. We’re like, no, I got this. And we’re willing to take risks. We’re willing to do dumb things to like save the day. And like for like early man, and even, even early le even post Ad Man, like that kind of characteristic needed to exist within a community.
[00:24:35] Brett: Uh, it’s less so now, now it’s more of a detriment, but like in especially a hunter gathered society, it, it makes a lot of sense. You would want, you would want the ADHD
[00:24:45] Christina: you would want the person with, with, with the low impulse control. It’s so interesting cuz my adhd, like, I don’t have like lack of impulse control. Like that’s not one of my, that, that’s like not one of my symptoms. Uh, which is, um, which is interesting. I don’t think [00:25:00] that I’m not, and, and I’m not trying to like make this a across gendered lines because I just don’t know enough.
[00:25:04] Christina: But I do wonder if, because there is a, whether it is, uh, genetic or, um, um, if it, if it’s like a, you know, sociological thing, you know, you see the difference a lot of times. Like, uh, and I know this from my mom, like you can observe very clearly little boys who have a D H D in the classroom. Like it’s very, very obvious little girls.
[00:25:26] Christina: It’s not. Usually because they don’t have the same lack of impulse control. And I don’t know, like what the reason for that is. I don’t know, again, if it’s like a, you know, a, a genetic thing, like a chromosomal thing or if it’s just like a, a, a conditioning thing
[00:25:41] Brett: yeah, no, I, it definitely presents differently in, in females
[00:25:45] Christina: 100% like, like because, because the thing is is that I definitely was a lot more, and I wouldn’t say I had impulse control, I was just more like, I don’t give a fuck. Like when I, before I entered elementary school, I was definitely, like, my personality was definitely much more like, [00:26:00] um, outgoing and like, they called me the wild woman and I would like, do you know some things that you might, might strike you as, as, as impulse things.
[00:26:09] Christina: But, but then I don’t even know how to like grip that cuz I’m like, okay, if you’re two years old, like, what, what, what does that mean? You know what I mean? Um, but um, I didn’t, I didn’t have any of the symptoms when I was in elementary school. People never would’ve thought that I was adhd, but then looking back at it and I’m like, oh, no, I, I had those things.
[00:26:28] Christina: It’s just I was able to cope with it very well, and it was hidden.
[00:26:31] Brett: well, yeah,
[00:26:32] Christina: I don’t, I, I didn’t get diagnosed until I was, you know, like 15.
[00:26:35] Brett: same with autism too. Like girls at a young age become better at masking symptoms than boys do.
[00:26:43] Christina: Totally. Although I, I think like for my A D H D, it wasn’t even a masking thing per se. I mean, Like some, there were, there was some masking. I would mask my depression, but like I didn’t feel like I was masking, you know, like I, I remember when I got diagnosed I was like, this is insane. And it was [00:27:00] one of those things that, that I even like blamed.
[00:27:02] Christina: It’s funny kind of going back to the topic, like I’ve been on Prozac and Prozac is the thing that seemed to kick off like the most overt a ADHD symptoms I’d ever had where I was no longer able to control if, if they’d been there before, like I would maybe put things off then I would maybe, you know, kind of get into scenarios where I would have to, you know, kind of crunch.
[00:27:19] Christina: But I was always able to do it and it was never a problem. And then, Prozac, I was like literally unable to focus on anything. And I, I’ve never, I’ve never felt more like stereotypically ADHD in my life than like, when I was on that drug. And then even going off of it, it didn’t stop. And so there was, you know, like is not, you know, these things are not correlation.
[00:27:41] Christina: Whatever correlation’s, not causation, whatever that the phrase is. But there was like a, an instinct where you wanna say, oh, this happened because of this, but like, I, I don’t think that would be an appropriate thing for me to be like, oh, I went on this antidepressant and that’s what caused my A D H D.
[00:27:57] Christina: Like, because I can go back and I can [00:28:00] look at, oh no, I had these other latent things. Now did it exacerbate a thing that was already in my mind and maybe have it present itself earlier and were acute. Than it would have otherwise. Sure. Um, but like, I, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t say that we need to ban Prozac the same way.
[00:28:17] Christina: You know, like, again, I guess awful as I feel for the, the, the individual family whose, you know, daughter, like, went from being seemingly perfect to having schizophrenia and then dying. It’s like, you know, she was, she was schizophrenic. She wasn’t going to be okay if she’d never smoked pot, you know?
[00:28:35] Brett: yeah. Yeah. That’s really interesting, uh, that, that Prozac connection though,
[00:28:40] Christina: Yeah.
[00:28:41] Brett: that’s not a, that’s not a side effect I’ve ever heard
[00:28:43] Christina: no, and, and it’s not one that anybody else has ever seen, but it was so acute. It was literally like an overnight thing. Like it was literally a, a like, you, you’re taking this drug and a complete important, a comport, an important component of your personality completely changes.
[00:28:58] Brett: Doesn’t Prozac [00:29:00] have like a one month titration period? Like I, I’d be curious like what, what chemical reaction happened? Uh, because like for depression, you don’t even see depression symptoms get better for, I think it’s a month.
[00:29:14] Christina: It depends. And, and I’m very sensitive to medication, um, especially in SSRIs, which is why I can’t take traditional SSRIs. And, and we found this out because I went on like 15 or 16 different ones in a, in a small period of
[00:29:29] Brett: I know how that goes. Yeah.
[00:29:31] Christina: And, and there, there’s another component there, which is my, um, my age was one thing, but my body weight and my bone age was another.
[00:29:41] Christina: And this was before a lot of doctors had experienced prescribing these sorts of things, essentially to children. Because when I was 15, my bone age was eight and a half and I weighed like 68 pounds. So, you know, um, how so, so yeah, like, so they’ll, [00:30:00] they’ll scan your, your wrists and stuff and they’ll like compare like the size and like the density and things of your bones.
[00:30:06] Christina: And,
[00:30:06] Jeffrey: Oh yeah. Bone density is part of it.
[00:30:08] Christina: and, and they’ll, they’ll, they’ll age it that way. And, um, I, I was so small and, and like hadn’t gone through, you know, puberty and all those things that, it was one of those things that like having, you know, they were having to look up on, on their, you know, charts and things, okay, how, how do we even dose this?
[00:30:24] Christina: How do we even prescribe this? Because the normal dose would be this. How do we give, how, how do we dose this to someone, you know, um, this size. Um, and so which was, which was a challenge. So, um, I don’t know, like it could have been a, but, but it was one of those things where it was within days. It was definitely within a week where I noticed on Prozac it was like an instantaneous.
[00:30:48] Christina: Oh, I, I can’t focus, I can’t pay any attention. I remember my mom sitting in the, um, kitchen table with me trying to run flashcards for me to learn my biology, like study for a biology test, and her just [00:31:00] being almost like in shock because her straight A, like type a like child, like, couldn’t focus on her face and couldn’t remember one thing to the next and couldn’t stop fidgeting and couldn’t, you know, have any amount of, of, of, um, like recall.
[00:31:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. Huh.
[00:31:22] Christina: So, I don’t know.
[00:31:24] Jeffrey: Yeah. Bone d not to like, but, but bone density was something that we had a member of our family who, um, was having just kind of had two weird stress fractures outta nowhere, and bone density is the kind of thing that you have to have the right doctor to even bring it up. I mean, we went to a couple of doctors, nothing came up.
[00:31:44] Jeffrey: Then all of a sudden it was like, I think I called my cousin to talk to him about it. He’s like a, he’s a podiatrist, and he’s like, first thing he said, get the bone density checked. No one had done that. It’s so interesting how, how you can, how there can be such a big thing that just gets missed.
[00:31:58] Christina: Yeah, no, you’re [00:32:00] right. And, and that’s something like, I always have to like bring that up whenever, um, I have any sort of, you know, like, like break or whatever. Like, I had to mention it when I was hit by the car and like, I broke my wrist, bring it up. I was like, soap, you should know, you know, I had to go on certain things and like, I, you know, my bone is deep age.
[00:32:17] Christina: Other stuff I’ve, I’ve less, like, I, I was basically told when I was a child I was like, yeah, you’re gonna have osteopenia, osteoporosis. Like, it’s, it’s not a will you, it is a when will you thing. Like, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s like, you know, um, so, you know, I had to point that out. I was like, might look okay in this thing, but this is not the way it goes.
[00:32:37] Christina: Like, even if you, if you meet me in person, like you’ll notice like my bones are still very small. Like I’m, I’m, I’m a small person, but like my bones are like petite in a way that it’s like, you know, I, I appear smaller than I am.
[00:32:50] Brett: So you’ve been tw, you’ve been 29 for at least five years now. Do you think your, your bone age
[00:32:55] Jeffrey: Oh, good question. Good
[00:32:57] Christina: That is a good question. I don’t know. I should get that. I should get [00:33:00] that done. Um, I don’t know because it’s possible that it could go higher, like, you know what I mean? Like, it’s, it’s possible. Like, no, no. Cuz it’s, it’s possible that like, that, that it could, that it could inverse. I don’t know.
[00:33:11] Jeffrey: Or could you take your actual age and if your bone age is younger, use that in a little bit of math to be able to really, truly say,
[00:33:19] Christina: I mean that’s, I mean, that is sort of like my, my like rationale for, you know, remaining as young as possible, as long as. Is the fact that actually, you know, I’ve got like a five and a half, like six year like deficit between, you know,
[00:33:37] Jeffrey: I’m 16 in bone years.
[00:33:41] Christina: I’m 29 and boney years.
[00:33:44] Jeffrey: That’s great.
[00:33:45] Christina: I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt you. That was my mental health update. But I didn’t mean to interrupt you Brett, but are
[00:33:49] Brett: Oh
[00:33:50] Christina: doing okay now?
[00:33:51] Brett: Oh yeah, yeah. No, that was a very thorough mental health update for Brett and uh, and Christina’s kind of slid in and overlapped, so, uh, yeah, [00:34:00] I’m good. Jeff, how are you?
[00:34:01] Jeffrey: I’m doing, I’m doing good. I, my what’s been on my mind a lot lately, which is certainly a mental health connection, is chronic pain. And, um, and I just wanna shout out to all my chronic pain people out there, um, who, who can only you can know how truly debilitating chronic pain is. It is very hard for the people in your life to hold that, right.
[00:34:23] Jeffrey: Like, to hold it constantly in part because you’re not always acting out of chronic pain. Right. Um, but the thing I’ve been thinking about is I, I’ve been making so many doctor appointments to deal with various kinds of chronic pain. I mean, I’m, I’m a really, I’m a big guy. I’m six four. I’m like two 70 thanks to Seroquel medication that makes you gain a lot of weight.
[00:34:45] Jeffrey: Um, and I recently like gained weight, sounded so fast because of that medication that my joints were like, ho, ho, not ready. Didn’t warm up for this. And uh, anyway, the chronic pain thing that I just wanna [00:35:00] say, and I wanna say to anybody out there for whom this might be useful, and I understand there are a lot of people with chronic pain for whom this won’t be useful, but that I’ve had some good luck recently by just getting into somebody who I trust to talk to.
[00:35:15] Jeffrey: It’s a hard thing to do and I’m definitely leading into our Zoc doc sponsorship, but, um, but I have found some really key relief by finally just going in, which is a thing that’s hard for me to do in. When I went in with my torn meniscus, I’ve actually had some issues with that knee for about a month or two, and he said, what have you done for it?
[00:35:37] Jeffrey: And I was like, I’m a Scandinavian. I didn’t do anything, man. I thought about, thought about surviving the next winter, started gathering berries. That’s what I did. Anyway, I mostly am saying that just to like send out like little empathy torpedoes to everybody out there who’s, who’s experiencing chronic pain and, and is frustrated and paralyzed by it sometimes z.[00:36:00]
[00:36:00] Brett: I, uh, I, I wrote, I wrote, I put together a new script for us. Christina. It’ll be a cold read for you.
[00:36:06] Sponsor: ZocDoc
[00:36:06] Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by Zocdoc. All right, so you’ve been suing about a health problem you have, maybe you’ve torn a, maybe you’ve torn your meniscus. Maybe you’re concerned about like, what is the bone age of, uh, of, of your arm. Uh, maybe you’ve got something else going on. You’re almost resorting to texting your, your group chat to get your friends opinions, which, you know what?
[00:36:29] Christina: Depends on your group chat. I’m, I’m gonna be honest about you, uh, with, with you on that, like depends on the group chat. You’re extremely unlikely to find quality medical advice in your group chat, but again, it’s gonna depend, uh, but you can find it from a doctor on Zocdoc. Thousands of medical professionals on Zocdoc are there to help you and they listen like a friend and they give you expert care that you need.
[00:36:50] Christina: Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your insurance are available when you need them, and treat [00:37:00] almost every condition under the sun. So no more Dr. Roulette or scouring the internet for questionable reviews. With Zocdoc, you have a trusted guide to connect you to your favorite doctor you haven’t even met yet.
[00:37:11] Christina: Millions of people use Zoc Docs free aft to find and book a doctor in their neighborhood who is patient, reviewed and fits their needs and scheduled just. I’m one of them. I’ve been using Zocdoc for more than a decade. Um, it is my go-to place to find a doctor. So go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the zoc app for free.
[00:37:31] Christina: Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s zoc. DO c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired zoc.com/
[00:37:47] Brett: Overtired,
[00:37:48] Jeffrey: Oh, we should have harm. We should have harmonized.
[00:37:50] Brett: Overtired, I’ll take the high part. No, I can’t do that. Um, so, uh, we are once again telling our listeners about [00:38:00] the Tech meme Ride home as our promo swap. Uh, when, when the New Yorker magazine asked Mark Zuckerberg how he gets his news, he said the one source he definitely follows is Tech Meme.
[00:38:10] Podcast Swap: Tech Meme Ride Home
[00:38:10] Brett: For four years now, the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast has been Silicon Valley’s favorite tech news source. The podcast has become so successful in fact that it launched a venture fund where the listeners are where the listeners to the show are the LPs and the. The tech meme Ride Home is like T L D R as a service.
[00:38:30] Brett: It’s not just the latest headlines from the world of tech, it’s also the context around the latest news of the day. It’s all the top stories, the top posts, and tweets and conversations about those stories as well as behind the scenes analysis. Guests who have come on to lend their experience include Andreessen Horowitz’s, Chris Dixon, and Bloomberg’s Apple Rumor King Mark Germond.
[00:38:52] Brett: The folks at Tech Meme are online all day reading everything so they can catch you up. So listen to the one podcast. [00:39:00] Anyone who’s anyone in Silicon Valley listens to every single day. Search your podcast app now for Ride Home and subscribe to the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast.
[00:39:12] Jeffrey: Boom, we are sponsored.
[00:39:16] Apple BAD!tude
[00:39:16] Brett: Should we talk about some max stuff?
[00:39:18] Christina: Yes. Let’s, let’s please, we were having, we were starting to get into a really good bitch fest right before we recorded that. I wanna hear from both of you about, so Yes.
[00:39:26] Brett: like, I feel like that’s a vital part of the Apple community is just complaining. Um, if, if you don’t complain, things don’t get better. Right?
[00:39:34] Christina: that’s exactly true.
[00:39:35] Jeffrey: don’t think my complaints help things
[00:39:37] Brett: Yeah. Same
[00:39:38] Jeffrey: you I think could make some, could make some motion.
[00:39:41] Christina: I, I ha I have successfully bitched on Twitter on a couple of occasions and gotten things fixed. Um, uh, like
[00:39:48] Brett: on for, for individual teams. Like I can see like the web kit team listening to someone like you, or maybe even me, but Apple as a
[00:39:56] Christina: Oh, no, absolutely not. No, no, no. But I’m just saying like, yeah, if you [00:40:00] can get things in front of the right people, um, and to be clear, like in, in like the most recent case, which was a, like a a T B o s instance, it was an issue that had been in a backlog.
[00:40:09] Christina: And then, um, the, the, the hornets nest that I kicked up that other people then added onto then like, made it prioritized. And I’m very thankful to the people who, who prioritized it so that I can access my Apple TV library on my Apple tv.
[00:40:24] Brett: Yeah, that’s handy.
[00:40:25] Christina: It, it’s useful, right? It’s useful to be able to access the, the things you’ve purchased on the device that, that the company makes when you can access it on all the other devices that are not made by that company in their app, but not on their latest and greatest, um, device.
[00:40:40] Christina: Yeah.
[00:40:41] Brett: Last night, my girl, we were sitting down to, uh, group watch, um, Ted Lasso and my girlfriend’s sister.
[00:40:49] Jeffrey: season.
[00:40:50] Christina: good.
[00:40:50] Brett: it is really good. But my girlfriend’s sister loaded up Apple TV on her Mac, uh, the TV app, and it came up and basically said she had nothing in her [00:41:00] library
[00:41:00] Jeffrey: yeah. Well this just happened to us. Yeah,
[00:41:02] Brett: we troubleshoot it.
[00:41:03] Brett: Trouble shot it for a little while and then I was like, have you tried turning it off and turning it back on? And I rolled my eyes cuz, you know, generic advice, but she rebooted her computer and everything was fine. It worked. It always works.
[00:41:20] Christina: what’s interesting on the Apple tv, if you are still running into problems and they’re, they’re clearly have issues, it’s, it’s not, it, it’s clearly an Apple problem. Cause they don’t have this problem with other clients like, it, it is, it is on their own clients. Like if you’re using the, uh, apple TV app on a Firestick or on an LG web OS tv or on
[00:41:39] Brett: Wait, you can do that.
[00:41:40] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:41:41] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:41:41] Brett: Oh, wow.
[00:41:42] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:41:42] Christina: they decided they actually wanted people to watch their originals, they realized that they couldn’t rely on people to spend $200 on their, at the time pretty shitty in comparison. Like set top box,
[00:41:53] Brett: That’s pretty obvious.
[00:41:54] Christina: Right. Like at this point I, I think that the pricing is better and it’s a decent experience, but I would still say [00:42:00] I can get a Fire stick 4k.
[00:42:02] Brett: like 40 bucks.
[00:42:03] Christina: Yeah, you can get for $25 a couple times a year, like $25. And I’m like, you can’t convince me that this is eight times better because it’s not. Um, it’s not. Um, and uh, so they realized, oh, most people have smart TVs and Rokus and other stuff. So if we actually want people to watch our originals, we have to come out of our bubble and, and make iTunes for windows.
[00:42:26] Christina: Um, which, you know, that, that’s a throwback to the iPod. The whole reason the
[00:42:30] Jeffrey: Yeah, totally. Totally.
[00:42:32] Christina: for Windows period. Um, it, it, it remained a Mac only thing. Apple as a company would not exist the same way that it does today. Anyway, that, that
[00:42:41] Jeffrey: You wanna, oh.
[00:42:42] Brett: to be fair, I own a stick. I have an Amazon Smart tv, I have a Roku, I have two Rokus and two Apple TVs. And I would by far prefer always to use the Apple tv.
[00:42:57] Christina: I don’t disagree.
[00:42:58] Brett: partly the, the [00:43:00] Touchpad remote is a big part of that. Uh, and the interface that’s really designed to work well, uh, with like touchpad thumb navigation, um, it’s, it’s, it’s perfect.
[00:43:10] Brett: It has its shortcomings for sure,
[00:43:13] Christina: and
[00:43:13] Brett: I, I don’t see things like the stick beating it out in a lot of the areas. It sucks
[00:43:18] Christina: no, I, I don’t, I totally agree with you on that. I’m just saying if you’re trying to convince somebody to buy one of these things, for a lot of people, $200
[00:43:27] Brett: Okay, so, so it’s better, but maybe not $125
[00:43:31] Christina: That, that’s my point. That, that, that, that’s my point. It, it, it’s better, but it’s not eight times better. Like if I can get one for $25 and one is $180, like y that, that, that’s my argument. So they make the apps now for those things, and you can access, what’s great about it, you can access all the original content, but what’s better is you can also access your library content.
[00:43:51] Christina: And that to me was what was kind of the game changer. So I travel with, uh, especially when I used to do international travel. I travel with a, a fire tv. [00:44:00] And I was, I would like it because I was like, oh, now I can watch my massive, um, like library of, of content that I’ve bought over the years through
[00:44:11] Jeffrey: Yeah, it is massive. I remember, I
[00:44:13] Christina: And, and yeah, it’s like, you know, it, it, and it’s massive, but it’s not like that bad. It’s
[00:44:18] Jeffrey: it makes sense year over year given the time you’ve been
[00:44:21] Christina: Totally. And, and also they have sales and so, but, but it’s also one of those things I’m like, honestly, like, because some people are like, well, maybe you just have too many things in your, in your library and that’s why you can’t access them.
[00:44:31] Christina: And I’m like, that’s not an excuse. Um, uh, especially when I buy them from this company. But, um, if you do, if you do run onto that problem, You can use the iTunes store apps on Apple TV where you can then have to go there to your purchases section and it’ll show you your purchases. And then you can play it that way if the TV app for some reason is not working on your Apple tv.
[00:44:52] Christina: But, uh, if you’re using a Roku or a Fire Stick or whatever, um, it should work. And if it’s not working on [00:45:00] your Mac, uh, as a l was smart enough to No. Just restart.
[00:45:05] Brett: I, um, uh, apple TV was not on our list of things to talk about, but I did wanna mention, uh, on my last trip to Michigan, um, I packed our Apple TV and an H D M I cable, and I was, I was really thankful for it when we got to the Airbnb and they had a big screen TV mounted on the wall and I could just plug in my Apple TV and it felt like being at home, all of my, all of my favorite, all my logins were already set up for Hulu and Netflix and all of the Apple TV apps were available.
[00:45:38] Brett: My, I got my Plex server working. I could remotely access, uh, my friends and my home analogy plex and yeah, it was Entertainment Central.
[00:45:47] Christina: No, I, if you’re traveling in the US I think that traveling with an Apple TV is fine. My one thing would be if you’re going internationally, maybe not if you’re wanting to use a VPN of any sort or if you’re at a hotel, this is the one thing. If you’re on a [00:46:00] normal, like non captive, I, um, uh, like wifi network, apple tv, traveling with it is great if you’re on a captive network.
[00:46:07] Christina: Um, the Apple TV does not like that. And so getting that connected is a pain in the ass. That’s why I like the Firestick. And actually Firestick has now become a little bit on some networks complicated too. So Roku is ironically the best choice. So, which is my least favorite. But if you’re gonna be at a lot of hotels, um, uh, take, take my advice and, and get a Roku or a Fire Stick because the captive network support, that’s what you want.
[00:46:32] Christina: Cuz otherwise you’ll have to do like create, try to create like a. You know, a, a a, a separate network connection between like your, your laptop and your, your, uh, um, apple TV in the hotel to like bypass the fact that you can’t log in to their stupid like system, um,
[00:46:53] Brett: Hotels have horrible, horrible, what, what are they called? The, you just said it, the name for the networks captive. [00:47:00] They h I hate, I hate hotel wifi. Um, I have a Roku with a Gyroscopic remote. Uh, like you can use it almost like a we, and you can like move stuff around on the screen by Mo. Yeah, it, it, it’s handy.
[00:47:14] Brett: But yeah, Roku’s not, not great software
[00:47:17] Jeffrey: hated that feature on the, we though, if I’m not lying.
[00:47:20] Christina: The, um, the, I think what l the lg, it’s not gyroscopic, but they have like a similar thing, like some people love it, some people don’t, where like you can kind of mo but it is sort of gyroscopic, I guess, where you can kind of move the remote to certain ways and then it’s got like this also, you know, this little cursor thing that you can use.
[00:47:34] Christina: And I always have to try to like,
[00:47:36] Brett: accelerometer
[00:47:37] Christina: That’s what the word is, accelerometer. That’s, that’s correct. Um, and, uh, I, I understand why it’s useful. I also understand why my dad hates the LG remote and, and uses instead like the com. He uses like the Comcast, Comcast, like the Xfinity Box to access all of his apps.
[00:47:56] Jeffrey: Also terrible.
[00:47:57] Christina: it’s terrible and it’s slow. And I’m like, use the one built into [00:48:00] your very nice television, or use the Apple TV or the Fire Stick cuz I bought you both, um, you know, use, use one of those. But, but, uh, that’s, he doesn’t quite get that. He, he prefers like the, the, the Comcast interface.
[00:48:17] Jeffrey: I hate those, uh, those like the, we control, I have a tremor and so it’s just a
[00:48:22] Christina: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right.
[00:48:26] Brett: let’s
[00:48:26] Jeffrey: were gonna talk about stage
[00:48:28] Brett: Yeah, let, let’s, I don’t think we’ll have to spend long on
[00:48:31] Jeffrey: No.
[00:48:32] Brett: but
[00:48:32] Jeffrey: Can I just say why I brought it up? Like I didn’t, I’ve stopped following, um, the OS updates. I mean, I, I update, but I don’t look for anything special anymore.
[00:48:42] Jeffrey: Cause I just, it’s been a
[00:48:43] Brett: You don’t read all the release notes?
[00:48:45] Jeffrey: I don’t, I used to, I used to as of like two years ago even. But anyway, I was like, what’s this stage manager thing? Like maybe this is cool. And I turned it on and I was like, Immediately, like I was like my grandma with the VCR remote. I was like, I fucking need a [00:49:00] flashlight.
[00:49:00] Jeffrey: And what are all these buttons? And it was like, it was like how maybe you would’ve imagined a heads up display in 1975 is how it felt. And I was just, I got out of there so fast. I’ve never rejected something kind of native to the max so quickly, um, or to the os. So anyway, that’s why I brought it up. What the hell?
[00:49:21] Brett: And my response was like, I don’t use it. I, I tried it as well. Um, I don’t think I understand. Like on a Mac, on a phone, it makes sense that I would, I would want, you know, one or two apps connected together, split screen on an iPad and, and switch between like, pairs of apps. But on my Mac, I use everything all at once.
[00:49:46] Brett: Um, there’s like never a time. I don’t want access to other applications windows. It’s why I have 2 32 inch displays. Um, and, and I don’t like the idea that you can’t easily access another [00:50:00] running app because you have to switch stages.
[00:50:03] Jeffrey: That’s what blew my mind. I was like, are you serious? Is there any way out of this help help.
[00:50:07] Brett: And I did however, think it was better, uh, in execution than spaces.
[00:50:14] Brett: Um, I spaces like great idea and, and like I was, I was using whatever the X Windows version of spaces was way back on Linux in high school. And, and it was cool to see it come to the Mac, but the fact is like, like I said, I have two 30 inch, 2, 2 32 inch displays and I just have everything open and spread out.
[00:50:37] Brett: And the idea of like separating into different spaces just doesn’t make sense for my brain. That’s like, I minimize, you know, like I’ll hide all apps and just load up what I need. Uh, but I don’t wanna like flip between, especially once you get more than two, like two spaces. Sure. If you have a set of apps that are less accessed and all go together and belong on a space, [00:51:00] great.
[00:51:00] Brett: But you have to flip through more than one space and it’s so confusing.
[00:51:04] Christina: I totally agree. And then I’ll forget like that I have an app open in a space. This is what my problem with spaces would be, and it just doesn’t work with my brain. I’m the same way as you. And it like you. In high school, I really liked having separate virtual desktops. That’s what it was called.
[00:51:17] Christina: And Linux, I really liked that idea. Um, but for whatever reason, may, maybe it’s the Mackin implementation, maybe my brain and the way I use things is different. Maybe, you know, I wasn’t using multiple monitors when I was using Linux, that’s for sure. Um, and certainly not as big of screens as I have now. But now it’s like I forget that I have it open on a space.
[00:51:38] Christina: It’s all open up another instance of an app, you know, on like my main thing, and then forget about it. And then accidentally it’s like swipe over. It’s like, oh, okay, but that’s not where the tab that I wanted was, or that’s not where the document that I wanted was. It’s on this other thing, you know? And so you wind up, at least for me, I wind up recreating spaces that are all identical to one another.
[00:51:57] Christina: But with all different things. So it was [00:52:00] just like the worst case scenario. You’re literally not benefiting from anything. Cuz like I understand the point being like, oh, I have this set of tasks for this set of things.
[00:52:08] Brett: Right. Context if they, if they neatly fit into different contexts. Sure. But I never have distinct con context, like I’m
[00:52:18] Christina: Well and for me, like it would automatically, like if I would say, okay, I’m going, if I had spaces enabled a certain way, and if it’s like, okay, I need to go into this web browser if it automatically took me to that space.
[00:52:28] Brett: Oh, okay. So I do have context, like podcasting is a context for me. And the only apps that I ever access while podcasting are Chrome, where we do a recording quip where we have our show notes and my browser. And I could easily, and it would be cool to have a separate browser window with just, with just tabs from the podcast.
[00:52:51] Brett: Yeah.
[00:52:52] Christina: does that and I love it.
[00:52:53] Brett: But I could just open up a new Firefox window in another space, and any tabs I created would be in that [00:53:00] window. So it, that is a case where I could see, but I use bunch for that. I use bunch to literally like quit all the, all my other apps. So I have all the bandwidth possible, um, and just switch into the podcasting context.
[00:53:13] Brett: But I could see that with spaces. But speaking a bunch, one of the requests I get very often is how do I open, uh, a particular app on a specific space or, uh, can you interface with stage manager? And the answer to both is no. Like Apple has never provided any kind of accessibility or automation workarounds for dealing with spaces.
[00:53:38] Brett: Much like focus modes like you. I focus modes is even worse. Like I should be able to, from an automation perspective, be able to, uh, to access focus modes, uh, without using shortcuts. Like you can do some stuff with shortcuts, but yeah, it’s just, it’s annoying.
[00:53:58] Christina: but, but stage [00:54:00] manager, like in some ways is even more egregious than spaces to me. Cuz spaces is one of those things that I can kind of like turn off and kind of like, you know, I forget that it even exists. You know, I, I stopped activating it or, or whatever, you know? And, um, I, I, I don’t like have to feel like I, I deal with it.
[00:54:15] Christina: Like you have to deal with it from a support issue, but like, me as a human, like if, if I’d forgotten. I’ve forgotten about it, you know, unless I accidentally click like the plus, you know, button when I, when I’m, um, doing Expose is that the, the mode where you can see all your open windows, because that I do love, like I love Expose.
[00:54:30] Christina: Um, but, but unless I accidentally click on like a plus, you know, menu and add another desktop and then when I’m swiping I’m like, God, what did I do? You know, I’m fine. But stage Manager, you know, it was like touted as like this new like better windows management thing, which in my opinion, like Mac os desperately needs like a better like Windows manager.
[00:54:50] Christina: And it, like, I, it just does, and, and it, but it was also touted as being this thing that would work really great on the iPad. And then on the iPad it’s even worse than it is on the Mac. And it was so bad on [00:55:00] iPad os that, that uh, uh, Federico Vichi Uni Max stories, who’s like Mr. iPad, like railed against it and they didn’t release it.
[00:55:08] Christina: Like they had to hold it back a while until it got better, but it’s still not good. And I’m talking about somebody who has an M two. You know, um, iPad Pro, like, literally like the latest iPad Pro, and it’s like the performance is not good, but then the utility, like, I, I just, I understand what they’re trying to do, but to your point, Brett, like, you’re like, oh wait, so I can’t do this very basic thing that I thought that I would be able to do, you know?
[00:55:34] Christina: Uh, it, it’s bad. It’s really bad.
[00:55:37] Brett: Did Vichi write about this? Should I find something for the show
[00:55:41] Christina: I’ll find it. Um, I’ll find an ad, but yeah. Um, why do you think though, like Windows and I’m sorry, but I’m gonna have to give like, my former employer some credit here, like Windows 11 especially, but also with power toys, like, they’ve now added really good [00:56:00] tiling kind of windows managed support, like into the os like, uh, both into the, you know, Uh, the built-in stuff, um, for, for, for the Snap modes.
[00:56:10] Christina: But now with power toys, you can go even further and it is truly like, you know, uh, uh, a Ty window manager, like for Linux or whatever. But, um, at an OS level, I’m very pretty like, and I know that we have third party apps on Mac Os, but like, doesn’t that just seem like this is like low-hanging fruit that Apple could just do to really Im
[00:56:31] Brett: Yeah, they could, they could Sherlock Moom, which would be pretty amazing. But I really don’t think if they build it into the os I don’t think it’ll be better than Moom. Um, I love Moom to death and, and better touch tool with, for window snapping and like hot corners where you can like drag a window into a certain area and it will expand to fit, you know, a quarter or a half of your screen.
[00:56:54] Brett: Like that kind of stuff. I have no problem using a third party utility for, [00:57:00] um, yeah.
[00:57:01] Christina: I don’t have a problem with it. I just, I wonder, like if you, you clearly, they, they recognize that window management is a problem for them to create something like stage manager. Right? And, and, and in spaces before that, like you clearly recognize that it’s a problem. So if you’re gonna create stage manager, which is a mess, why would you not?
[00:57:17] Christina: I, I guess in my mind, I just don’t understand the priorities where you see all of the third party things like Moom and whatnot, and you see that that’s a direction that that works and that makes sense. But then create this completely, in my opinion, just like over designed and under, like, both over and Underdesigned like UI paradigm that you’re not even gonna have an p i for like,
[00:57:39] Brett: I will, I will say, and I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed this, but on, and I think it started a couple versions ago, but if you have two windows on your Mac desktop and you drag them near each other, the edges will stick. There’s this fine, and you can, I mean, just drag a little bit farther and it’ll go past it.
[00:57:57] Brett: But if you lightly drag two windows near each [00:58:00] other, you can easily align them. Um, that’s, that’s a nice touch. It doesn’t go in anywhere near your addressing your concerns, but little, little touches like that. I, I do impress me about the os.
[00:58:12] Christina: Yeah, I agree with that. Like that I really do like, like the fact that, like you said, you can get them so that they, you know, they, they, they touch or whatever. And I really do like that, but I just, I, I just look at like, it’s like you’re so close. You know what I mean?
[00:58:24] Brett: Yeah,
[00:58:25] Christina: Like, and then, and then you give a stage manager,
[00:58:29] Jeffrey: That’s what I was thinking. What the fuck is this?
[00:58:32] Grapptitude
[00:58:32] Brett: your gratitude this week is stage manager.
[00:58:34] Christina: ha ha.
[00:58:36] Brett: should we, uh, should we do a gratitude?
[00:58:38] Christina: should actually,
[00:58:39] Brett: Um, I, I will kick it off. My, mine will probably not take long. Um, I’m going with, uh, Microsoft Word this week.
[00:58:48] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:58:49] Brett: I’m just kidding.
[00:58:50] Christina: I was gonna say that, that doesn’t sound right.
[00:58:52] Brett: That doesn’t sound right. Um, no. I’m gonna go with an app called Code Runner. Um, I, I used to know the developer and I’ve forgotten [00:59:00] who it’s by.
[00:59:00] Brett: Hold on. Code Runner about Code Runner. Oh, Nick Nikolai Crill. Um, So this is a little app that basically gives you an r e p l a rep for a bunch of different languages, and you can, it’s got a nice editor with, uh, code completion and syntax highlighting and everything. Um, and you can write your code for like Python or Objective C or Swift or Ruby, and you can instantly run it and get console output, um, as you, as you work.
[00:59:37] Brett: And for, uh, hammering out an idea, uh, like I love it for JavaScript stuff too, although, uh, VS. Code and Sublime Text, both have pretty good res for JavaScript, um, and, and, uh, accessing the Chrome console. But, um, for, especially for like Python, which I’m not great at and need to test my work often in, [01:00:00] um, the Code Runner is just a, a very well done tool that fits a very specific need.
[01:00:09] Jeffrey: Awesome. Yeah, it’s been solid forever.
[01:00:12] Brett: It has and it, it, it, it improves, uh, slow more slowly these days. Uh, but it is, it is, uh, it is solid. It has been solid, and it has improved over the years. I don’t think it’s on Setapp, is it?
[01:00:27] Christina: Uh, it is
[01:00:28] Jeffrey: It is. Yeah.
[01:00:29] Brett: there you go. Setup or code runners on setup.
[01:00:33] Christina: yeah, so if you are a setup subscriber, which man I love setup. That’s just like
[01:00:38] Jeffrey: So good.
[01:00:39] Christina: unpaid, just like promoted, like that completely unpromoted, but just completely like genuine, like love
[01:00:46] Brett: I recently revised the script I wrote that Will, you can run it and it will tell you what apps are on your system that are also on setup so that you can choose to run the setup version and thereby give part of your setup [01:01:00] subscription to. The developers, uh, as a, as a subscription fee. Um, which only makes sense because set up versions are fully unlocked.
[01:01:09] Brett: Uh, and, and there’s no, if, if an app has a subscription model with a pro level, that’s what you get on set app, you get the pro level. Um, but I, I revamped it or I revised it with some corrections that I got from, uh, from users, um, uh, via Macedon. And um, I had a couple of people contact me because they ran it and it told them like 20 of their apps were on setup.
[01:01:35] Brett: And they’re like, well, why would I pay for setup if I already own all these apps? But I just want to clarify that this script is to tell you how you could take apps you own and, and give the developers more money. But there are a couple hundred apps on set apps, and this script will not tell you all the apps that you could be using that you don’t already own.
[01:01:57] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Hey, uh, [01:02:00] can I say two things about code?
[01:02:01] Brett: Yeah.
[01:02:02] Jeffrey: One is as soon as you open it up, if you’ve never used it, go into, they say settings in the, in the top, in the menu bar, but it’s called preferences in the actual preference window. I don’t know what that’s about. Um, but anyway, edit file type associations.
[01:02:18] Jeffrey: It’s on the first page at the bottom. And just make sure that everything is unchecked so that you don’t start opening, um, code files in Code Runner I did for the longest time, I didn’t think to look at that and it, I would like, I don’t want this anymore. It’s driving me crazy.
[01:02:31] Brett: I kept, I kept forgetting, like I, I had not set yaml. Um, so every time I opened a config file code runner would pop up and I, I rarely want Code Runner to be the default editor for any file type. Like I intentionally open Code Runner. So yeah, di disable all of those file type associations.
[01:02:51] Christina: Speaking of that, isn’t there a Mac app that will tell you like what your default apps are or that makes
[01:02:59] Brett: There used to [01:03:00] be, uh, it was originally called RC default app. Um, there’s a new version rewritten in Swift, and it might be called Swift Default App. I, I would’ve to look it up. Um, I’ll, if I find it, it’ll be in the show notes, but yes. Um, RC default app was awesome for, uh, doing some very system level adjustments to what, uh, file types are associated, uh, what, uh, bundle IDs are associated and even like protocols, like if you want like a d different handle handler for like mail to or FTP protocols, and you could set all that in there.
[01:03:36] Brett: And there is an updated version of it. I’ll have to find it.
[01:03:40] Christina: Okay, cool. Yeah, cause I was gonna say, I remember there being like a better version, um, or a better like tool for that. Um, and, and I couldn’t remember what it was because
[01:03:49] Brett: So it, it was a, it was a system preferences, pain or like a plugin does system set. Can you even have plugins in the revamp Ventura system [01:04:00] settings? Like all of those apps are gonna have to come up with their own Oh, that sucks. I fucking hate, that’s, that’s what I want to bitch about with Mac Os. Right now, that system setting panel is
[01:04:10] Christina: It’s fucking terrible and it’s not like it was good before.
[01:04:13] Brett: they changed the name of it.
[01:04:14] Brett: So all of my launch, my keyboard launching, like I’m used to typing sp so I had to manually assign SP to open system settings instead of system preferences. I hate that.
[01:04:25] Christina: No, I hate it so much. And then it’s like, you know, you have enough muscle and like look to be clear, anything they changed it with, we would’ve had problems with because you get a certain amount of muscle memory and they would change the order of stuff. You’ve between OS versions even when it had the same over overall interface.
[01:04:39] Christina: And that would annoy me cuz I was like, I, I don’t know.
[01:04:42] Brett: so
[01:04:43] Christina: you know what icon is cap?
[01:04:44] Brett: there’s a setting and system preferences on previous versions to display. Alphabetically and I, that would be the first thing I always
[01:04:51] Christina: Okay. I never
[01:04:52] Brett: does move around. Um, and if it’s displayed alphabetically and you get used to it, it’s easy to find stuff. System settings I [01:05:00] could not use without the search.
[01:05:01] Christina: No, you have to
[01:05:02] Brett: the only way to find what you’re looking
[01:05:04] Christina: No, you have to use the search. It’s, it’s good search, but it’s not like, but it seems so weird to me. It’s like, look, spotlight is fantastic and, and, and we love it. Um, and I’m glad it’s there, but I shouldn’t have to use a search thing to find like the settings paint that I want for something.
[01:05:23] Christina: Like, to me, that’s just a sign of bad design.
[01:05:28] Brett: Oh, the other J side note, I know we’re over time already and you guys haven’t done your gratitude yet, but um, Do you guys use full keyboard access? So in keyboard settings, you can turn on full keyboard access, which means that when a dialogue pops up, you can hit tab to switch between the buttons and then space bar to hit a button.
[01:05:51] Brett: Um, and I had it enabled in system preferences, but it wasn’t working. And like it would ac [01:06:00] on some apps, it would work. In some apps it wouldn’t, and I couldn’t figure out why. But then I discovered that in, um, in, uh, keyboard settings, there is a, a shortcuts pain where you can assign system short, uh, keyboard shortcuts for apps and function keys and everything.
[01:06:18] Brett: Um, in the, uh, keyboard, pain of the keyboard settings, um, there’s, uh, an option called, uh, turn keyboard access on or off. There was another one that was like, oh, change the way taboo’s focus and you can assign that to a keyboard shortcut. And I hit the keyboard shortcut that was assigned to it, and all of a sudden everything started working again.
[01:06:47] Brett: It seems to function independently of the full keyboard access setting,
[01:06:52] Jeffrey: Huh?
[01:06:53] Brett: just in case anyone else is running into that.
[01:06:56] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[01:06:57] Christina: Okay. That is interesting. And, and that is, [01:07:00] uh, okay,
[01:07:02] Jeffrey: We’re getting into the weeds. Everybody who wants to stay in the weeds, I like it in the
[01:07:06] Christina: like in the weeds, uh, do you, do you have your gratitude ready?
[01:07:10] Jeffrey: I sure do. Um, my aptitude, so I’m a member, owner of a research and evaluation. Firm that is a collaborative in, based in Minneapolis. We do work all around the world, and there’s about nine of us. Um, it’s all social justice based, uh, social justice based work.
[01:07:28] Jeffrey: Um, and uh, anyway, so I have just tried Grammarly for business. We’ve always used Grammarly, like individuals in the organization have used it. But we’ve started to get, like, we’ve started to get like kind of more critical of how we communicate with clients or how we do sort of public facing communication.
[01:07:49] Jeffrey: I remember who’s the, uh, journalism critic at nyu who, uh,
[01:07:55] Christina: Jay Rosen,
[01:07:56] Jeffrey: yeah, I remember Jay Rosen. I think it was him saying, you know, [01:08:00] in journalism you should treat. Thing you do as an editorial product, so your emails an editorial product, like whatever. Right now that really impacted me as a journalist, having heard that and changed me generally.
[01:08:13] Jeffrey: Um, and we’re kind of like hitting that point in our work where we want to kind of treat it that way. I’m trying to talk people into treating it that way. So Grammarly for business, like I’ve used Grammarly forever, but Grammarly for Business allows you to basically turn Grammarly into a like Scrivener level, um, feature party.
[01:08:32] Jeffrey: And, and it’s just like, it’s amazing. So you can create your own style guide, um, that is just like, it’ll just underline something because you know, like we, we’ve written things, we’re there and there is wrong, right? It’s like it just happens, right? You, you put the wrong there and you’re moving too fast, whatever, like it happens to a couple of our members.
[01:08:49] Jeffrey: And so I made a style guy that’s like, Hey, if you’re using the word. E r e or the word there, e i r, you’re just gonna see it underlined. It’s like, Hey, is this the right one? You know? Um, and, uh, and then you’re allowed to, [01:09:00] it allows you to just kind of turn, um, features on. There’s about, there must be a hundred features that are like, if you wanna try to not use, uh, bi, you know, if you wanna use non-binary language or if you wanna like, uh, use your dates this way, or whatever.
[01:09:14] Jeffrey: And so anyway, it’s been amazing. And I’m in the process of creating a style guide, which you can do in a CSV file and just upload. Um, their interface is a little clunky, but, uh, if anybody’s out there and has the, the funds or the need and a small business, or, which is what ours is, um, Grammarly for business is amazing.
[01:09:33] Christina: Cool. So in Grammarly for business, do like, do they not now upload all of your stuff to their cloud? As for training stuff, like, can you at
[01:09:40] Jeffrey: No, they, they do as far as I know. And I don’t know if business I haven’t gotten so far, cause I’m on the seven day trial, that’s a big concern of mine, so I should have said that. I only use it for certain types of things. I use it for emails that aren’t sensitive and, you know, and honestly I use it to teach myself.
[01:09:57] Jeffrey: Like, I’m constantly learning. It’s like [01:10:00] it’s wrong a bunch of the time and there’s certain kinds of writing that it’s just totally inappropriate to go into Grammarly for. Um, it’s like working with a really stubborn copy editor where it’s like, hey, we have a voice, right? Like, and we wanna still professor voice, uh, don’t forget that.
[01:10:14] Jeffrey: Um, but that’s really important to me. And I’m not sure of the answer. Yet, but I mean, I, I’ve gone so granular as like we’ve had, you know, we’ve had, uh, emails to clients that are just too informal, right? Like we just wanna have a record of just kind of formal clean correspondence. And in case for any reason something goes wrong and they wanna like audit the partnership and they’re like, wow, these guys have just been like writing us and being like, let me know Lmk, or like whatever.
[01:10:40] Jeffrey: So anyway, if you wanna be uptight, which I do in this case, Grammarly for
[01:10:44] Christina: for business. Um, okay. I’m, I’m, I’m interested in that. Yeah. Cause my, my only concern with Grammarly, cuz I think it’s a great product, but my big concern has always been like, okay, you upload everything that I write and, um, so like for business purposes, like we are absolutely not allowed to use it.
[01:10:59] Christina: I [01:11:00] mean, I’m sure some people do, but it is, it is on our blacklist. Um, because, um, uh, the security audits have come back and they’ve been like, Um, and I don’t know if that was the, the, the personal version, the the business thing or whatnot. And, and I’m sure that, uh, we’re not the only, uh, organization and Microsoft was like this too.
[01:11:18] Christina: I’m sure that those are not the only organizations that have those sorts of concerns. And I know that certainly a lot of places have those things in place for, for chat, G P T and, and um, and, and even, you know, things like, uh, copilot, which can be, uh, turned off. Um, and, and, and by default on business doesn’t send anything at all back to anything.
[01:11:35] Christina: But, but that’s always like my, uh, my only weird thing with, with Grammarly cuz I find it useful is like, oh, I can’t use this for work because everything that you type in is used as their training set. And for, you know, uh, most of my work stuff, it would be completely fine. But there are some things that would be like, eh, you know, don’t, I don’t want that, uh, uh, used in some way.
[01:11:59] Jeffrey: [01:12:00] That actually reminds me, like for I, we do some pretty sensitive projects, like on juvenile justice and stuff like that. And, um, we have sort of a, a document security hierarchy where, you know, you, you’ve defined like five levels of security and it makes me think that the most sort of permissive model could be a thing.
[01:12:19] Jeffrey: Like in this you can, with this, you can use Grammarly, right? Like with this you absolutely cannot use Grammarly. So I’m gonna add that to the definitions. Once I research the security itself, maybe I’ll just decide to bail, but love it so far
[01:12:31] Christina: Good.
[01:12:32] Brett: a, I have a quick update. Um, you may remember. You may remember in the past we’ve talked about RC default apps. Um,
[01:12:40] Jeffrey: wait, what does that mean?
[01:12:43] Brett: the, it was the system preference thing we were just talking about. Um,
[01:12:47] Jeffrey: I drifted off
[01:12:48] Brett: yeah, no, I
[01:12:49] Jeffrey: so I, I was standing in for the listeners like, oh man, this is good, but I don’t know what’s going on.
[01:12:53] Brett: Um, it is called swift default Apps, the due Version, and you can use third party. [01:13:00] Pre preference pains in system settings. Uh, they show up way at the bottom of that horrible sidebar in system settings. Uh, but once you install swift default apps, which you can do with brew, um, uh, you get all, all the, all the usual internet, r i schemes, uniform type of Denis, and applications all, all configurable.
[01:13:22] Christina: Now, is this the one that has not been updated since 2019?
[01:13:24] Brett: Uh, yes,
[01:13:26] Christina: Okay. Okay. All right. But it still works. Okay, well then that, that’s all I needed to know cause I, I found that, cuz it was funny, we were both googling for these things at the same time and I, I found that, uh, and I was like, oh, but this has been updated since 2019.
[01:13:40] Christina: I wonder if this even works. So that is good to know that you can have also custom preference planes. Um, cuz that I, I was not aware of, um, I thought that had gone the way of the dodo so hap happy that that is not the case.
[01:13:51] Jeffrey: I listened this time.
[01:13:53] Christina: Um,
[01:13:54] Brett: what do you got?
[01:13:54] Christina: so mine is actually Moom, um, Honestly, we were talking about that and I was, I was like, [01:14:00] actually, you know, what Moom is is one of my, my favorites.
[01:14:03] Christina: I’ve also, I’ve used a number of these different things over the years. I’ve used Mosaic. I’ve used, um, what was one of the other ones called, um,
[01:14:12] Jeffrey: Oh
[01:14:12] Christina: rectangle or something?
[01:14:14] Jeffrey: something always back to Moom.
[01:14:16] Brett: Magnet. There was magnet. Yeah. Moom.
[01:14:21] Christina: yep. And, and, and, yeah. Magnet, that’s it. And, and so rectangle some of those things. And so I’ve used a lot of these things over the years and uh, and Moom is definitely the best. So, um, big, uh, big fan of that. If you’re somebody who wants kind of a tiling Windows manager experience on the Mac, that is, that is my pick.
[01:14:39] Christina: Especially one that’s like pretty and like easy to deal with. I still feel like that should be like a first party feature. Um, and I, not that I want many tricks to be Sherlock. Uh, because I feel, I still feel like Moom could be better, could be like, made to be better than, than whatever they were to do built in.
[01:14:57] Christina: But you
[01:14:58] Brett: How, like what [01:15:00] more could you ask? Boom. To do for, it’s
[01:15:02] Christina: no, no. What I’m
[01:15:02] Brett: never talked about this. Are we Sure We haven’t.
[01:15:05] Christina: I’m, I, I don’t think we have.
[01:15:06] Brett: It’s not on our master
[01:15:08] Christina: so no, I, I, we’ve talked about window managers, but I, or like Ty window things, but I don’t think we’ve gotten into this. I don’t think Moom could be any better. What I’m saying is I think that Moom could still be more advanced than what,
[01:15:19] Brett: oh, I
[01:15:19] Christina: what Apple does.
[01:15:20] Christina: That’s what I’m saying. But, but I feel like there should be a basic thing the same way that like the, the default Windows 11 experience is superseded by what is then done by power toys. Um, and, uh, and I, I, I assume there might have been some third party, uh, attempts to, to do things on windows. Nobody is as good as power toys.
[01:15:41] Christina: Power toys. It’s just, The tits. Um, but uh, yeah, I still feel, I still, I feel like there’d be a place where like maybe Moom would potentially be like Sherlock, but they, it would go above and beyond whatever Apple would do. I
[01:15:55] Brett: Can I tell you, can I tell you my three, three favorite things about Moom? [01:16:00] Um, first of all, keyboard shortcuts. So you can, like, you can say, uh, you, you can draw, you get like a grid of your screen and you can draw in that grid, what like a, a window position, like maybe the left half of your screen or maybe like the upper right corner of your screen.
[01:16:16] Brett: And then, uh, you can.
[01:16:17] Jeffrey: into thirds.
[01:16:19] Brett: you can assign keyboard shortcuts. So whatever the current window is, you hit the keyboard shortcut and it goes to that position on the screen. And I have a bunch of those in muscle memory as I move between windows. Second thing the, uh, it adds so that when you hover over the green icon in the traffic lights, like where the, where you close the window and maximize the window, uh, when you’re running Moom and you hover over that, it brings up a little shortcut panel and it has like this, it looks like a touchscreen on it, and you can draw in, like you click it and then you, you can draw on your screen where you want the window to go.
[01:16:57] Brett: It’s very cool. And, oh, what was the [01:17:00] third thing? Um, oh
[01:17:01] Jeffrey: that feature I now use more even than my keyboard shortcuts.
[01:17:04] Christina: Yeah, same. To be honest.
[01:17:06] Brett: And Windows sets, uh, well, I can’t, what do they call ’em in Moom? But you can, like, you can store, once you get a bunch of windows of specific apps in the positions you want them in, um, they’re called snapshots. Uh, you can take a snapshot and it will remember those apps in those positions. So the next time all those apps are running, you can trigger that snapshot and everything will go back to where you want it.
[01:17:30] Brett: And I, I, I incorporate that into bunches. So it launches all the apps and then then uses AppleScript to tell Moom to move all the windows.
[01:17:40] Jeffrey: The way I use that feature is if I’m working on like a project that requires, you know, a bunch of windows and I’ve got ’em all organized, um, I take a snapshot like that morning of the workspace and then throughout the day, once I sully it with other things that are open and whatever else, I do the keyboard shortcut for it and it just resets to, to where it [01:18:00] needed to be.
[01:18:00] Jeffrey: And I can think clearly again.
[01:18:02] Brett: Good pick. Christina, we had a lot to say about this.
[01:18:05] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, Moom very, very good stuff. It’s, uh, it’s both in the Macapp store and without it, I tend to, I don’t, okay. I know that we’re going long. I don’t buy macapp store versions of apps. If I can buy a non macapp store version, uh, where, where are you two with that? Cuz if anything, I, I like, I go out, I try to avoid the Macapp store version if at all possible.
[01:18:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, I’ve, I’ve transitioned to that. I mean, it was a couple years ago, but like, that’s totally how I, how I am. And, and in fact, the last time I used a profile to set up a computer, I was amazed. Cause I used like MAs, which is like, you know, and, uh, I was amazed at how few Mac store apps I had. Um, it looked wrong.
[01:18:47] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Brett,
[01:18:50] Jeffrey: I, I wish setup was a little easier to interact with, like from the command line or whatever else. But
[01:18:56] Christina: Agreed. But, but, but I also understand that that would be like [01:19:00] difficult in, in a lot of regards. Like you could prob you could probably make it work. It is an education. Cause that’s the thing. It’s like you could, there’s a way you could make that work with Ruth, but it would be so much effort that I, that I, that I understand why that’s not like, uh,
[01:19:15] Jeffrey: I wouldn’t want him to prioritize it.
[01:19:16] Brett: the only, the only reason someone might prefer, uh, the Mac App Store is, uh, for updates, uh, for just having one place where you can go to keep everything up to date. But that’s what Mac Updater does, and, and it does it better. And like Mac Updater could do like your audio plugins and everything. Um, so no, I, I do not.
[01:19:39] Brett: If, if something is available off the app store, I will buy it off the app store. That said, um, like NV Ultra will be released on the app store first just because from a monetary perspective, the audience to the, for the app store is far more built in and people, uh, like your average Mac user trust the Mac App [01:20:00] store more than they trust going to a website and putting in their credit card information.
[01:20:04] Christina: See, that’s what I was gonna ask. Like, I was gonna say like, is that, I, that’s I guess what my question was, like, is that still the case? Because I, I, I could have seen that argument a number of years ago, but like at this point, a let’s, we’ve all talked about this over the years, but like, let’s be honest, like the quality in the Mac app store is pretty shit.
[01:20:23] Christina: And, and it’s full of a lot of like, you know,
[01:20:26] Brett: bad.
[01:20:27] Christina: it, it’s, it’s like full of like my first app shit or stuff that hasn’t been updated in years. And then some really good things where the developers have to go around their ass to get to their elbow to make sure that it works correctly because of some of the a p i restrictions and other things.
[01:20:40] Brett: And like when they, it used to be they would do these like featured on the app store content and they, and they would, they would highlight like an app I’d never heard of, and, and it would be a good find. These days they seem to have like these mainstays and they highlight their own products all the time.
[01:20:57] Brett: Um, I can’t remember the last time, like something [01:21:00] like marked. It got highlighted by the App Store.
[01:21:03] Christina: Yeah. And
[01:21:04] Brett: still help reaching out to indie developers, but it seems less so
[01:21:08] Christina: yeah, it seems less so, and I also, those are those things where like, you know, you don’t know, like I wonder how much that even does in terms of bringing people into it. Like right now there’s five ways to customize Word and it’s, you know, tricks about that. And I don’t know who cares about that.
[01:21:23] Brett: Last time, last time Mark got featured on the app store, it resulted in about $500 over my usual monthly sales, which is for, for an indie app like Mark, that’s, that’s a sign, that’s a non-trivial amount of money. Um, it does bring in new users, but in general, like the app store is not my, I, I have no growth on the app store.
[01:21:44] Brett: It’s impossible to find stuff.
[01:21:46] Christina: which I guess that was sort of my thing is like not an it’s, it’s not that it’s non-trivial. I just kind of wonder like, at this point, um, and I know that there have been more of developers who’ve had to leave the Mac App store for various reasons because being there has, has been too much [01:22:00] of a problem, like having to do the work of managing both versions, sandboxing and, and, and, well, it’s not even so much sandboxing, it’s the app store way of sandboxing because, uh, you can still have a sandbox and like secured app, but then what the app store wants you to do goes like another level beyond that.
[01:22:16] Christina: Um, so things like kaleidoscope don’t work, um, and uh, and, and things like that. But like, yeah, at this point I, I understand, I guess people doing it, but I wonder how much even modern Mac, like newbie, like Mac users, I, I, I guess there’s like, obviously with iOS it makes sense. That’s the only place you can go in.
[01:22:38] Christina: The app store is good, but I. I wonder, I wonder how
[01:22:42] Brett: in, so
[01:22:43] Christina: right. But I wonder like how much people, you know, on like the, you know, the, the Normies are really actually even going to the app store. Um, I don’t know.
[01:22:54] Brett: Set, set up is my largest source of monthly income now. Um, [01:23:00] yeah. Which I mean, like the sales have marked, have declined over time and the only reason set is the largest now setup. Hasn’t grown for a couple years. Uh, my income from it hasn’t. Um, but it states steady and, and it’s monthly recurring income.
[01:23:17] Brett: And that’s worthwhile. Uh, kaleidoscope went subscription.
[01:23:21] Christina: Yeah, it is. It’s gonna be going subscription, uh, with, uh, with the next version. Um,
[01:23:27] Jeffrey: I bought, after I bought my expensive license.
[01:23:29] Brett: And, and the subscription is not gonna be cheap. And I talked to, I talked to Florian about it, um, and they put a lot of thought into it, and I kind of get it because Mark, mark has thousands of users that I and I, I make about a grand a month on it. Um, even though like there are, there’s a, a small army of dedicated users that if I went subscription, I could be making a lot more money and I would have a lot more impetus to continue developing it.
[01:23:59] Brett: [01:24:00] Um, and, and I’m starting to really see the wisdom of, of the subscription, uh, what do you call it? Uh, method,
[01:24:10] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, um, it’s one of those things where like, I instinctively as like a user am annoyed with like the subscription for everything model. I get it. But I also have to like, understand well as an ongoing business concern if you wanna continue updating things and like Kaleidoscope and, and, and for instance, cuz I, I know we both talk to them, but it’s one of those things where this is an application that was always expensive that they took over, that had had three or four previous owners, had not been well maintained in years
[01:24:37] Brett: And they fixed it and made a ton of cool improvements, like really
[01:24:42] Christina: Really useful stuff. But also like, did you know the thing where they were un unbelievably, I think like, like good to the former owner. Like, you know, to people who had licenses before, like they were really good with support and other stuff, but they took this thing that basically even dead and had to do a rewrite.
[01:24:59] Christina: Like I think in a [01:25:00] lot of ways it might have been easier if you had just started from scratch and said, let’s create a diff app that is, has similar features than trying to, to do what they did. And so it was a ton of work. Um, it, it’s an ongoing, you know, price concern. Um, you know, they had the, the Mac app store stuff.
[01:25:15] Christina: The only thing, uh, I helped them with cuz they, they like let me know that it was happening. I helped them a little bit with the edit of their blog
[01:25:21] Brett: Yeah, I, I did too. sent, they sent it out to all the, all the Mac writers. Um, I, uh, that does bring up one way that the App store is, uh, handy though, is subscriptions. Um, I, I, I used to be very much, I used to hate the subscription for everything idea, and it felt like, I felt like I was just constantly signing up for more and more subscriptions.
[01:25:48] Brett: But I’ve gotten used to it. Like I get, I get receipts every month. I can keep track of my expenses. I know how to cancel a subs subscription. Um, most, most places give you a warning before your subs. If it’s a [01:26:00] yearly subs subscription, they’ll let you know in advance before that $99. Comes outta your account.
[01:26:06] Brett: The app store makes it easy to see all of my app store-based subscriptions in one place, and I can just literally go down a list and cancel or renew all in one place rather than having to track down, uh, individual subscriptions that I bought outside of the app store. So that is a benefit to subscribing to apps through the app store.
[01:26:28] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, that, that’s for sure. And that’s honestly what Apple is pushing on people. Like they want everybody to go subscription. Like, uh, particularly, uh, I mean I, I, I’m gonna be honest, I don’t think Apple cares that much about the Mac App Store, but it’s particularly one of those things that they’re trying to push everybody towards on, uh, iOS is, you know, first when in app purchase and now it’s like they want everything to be a subscription.
[01:26:50] Christina: Um, cuz like, let’s be honest, that’s where Apple gets their money, uh, which is fine.
[01:26:55] Brett: we, we, Fletcher and I both at the time, we started talking about how [01:27:00] we were gonna price NV Ultra. Um, both of us kind of were, we didn’t love the idea of a subscription, but the more we talked about it, the more it, it just made sense as a model. That’s the word I was looking for. A model subscription model.
[01:27:14] Brett: Um, and it’s actually like, there are a lot of benefits to it, partly because it’s so compatible with the app store and, um, it’s the only way in the app store you can offer a free trial is if you have subscriptions in, in app purchases. Um, so, but I, I’m, I’m on board. I’ve, I’ve really come around on the subscription thing.
[01:27:35] Christina: Yeah. I, I’ve come around on it in the sense that like, for apps that I care about and that I wanna do, where I get annoyed is if it’s an app that I don’t even know. It’s like I’m, it’s like I’m gonna use this twice a year. Like, I don’t wanna, I, I don’t
[01:27:46] Brett: you sign up for the one month subscription and then try to remember to
[01:27:50] Christina: try to remember to cancel Exactly. Or try to find another alternative or whatnot.
[01:27:54] Christina: Right. Like, that’s where I think it’s hard for subscriptions to work. Like I think that if it’s gonna be something that you use ongoingly, I think. [01:28:00] Like on an ongoing concern. I think it makes sense and I don’t have a problem with it where it’s more, I think, problematic and, and maybe not, at least the way subscriptions work now, aren’t well designed for it, is that if it is like a one off utility, like I only use this a handful of times.
[01:28:16] Brett: Wouldn’t it be cool if there was like a pay as you go, like a pay, like you wanna launch the app and you just paid 99 cents to launch it because you’re never gonna launch it again, or like, not, not for another six months. I definitely have apps like that, but I’m like, I might not use this again for a year and, and if I subscribe now, I will forget to, to cancel that subscription.
[01:28:39] Brett: Yeah.
[01:28:40] Jeffrey: Totally.
[01:28:42] Brett: Yep. All right. Yep. We should go.
[01:28:45] Jeffrey: It was a fun one. I gotta get outta here.
[01:28:48] Brett: Yep.
[01:28:49] Jeffrey: Get some sleep. You very good people.
[01:28:51] Brett: some sleep.
[01:28:52] Christina: Get some sleep.
[01:28:54] Outro: The.[01:29:00]
Jeff’s gone this week, so Overtired returns to Original Recipe with Christina and Brett talking about Satanic Panics, TV, eating gluten free, and finding the shortest lines on your Disney vacation.
The hosts of Techmeme Drive Home read all of the latest tech news so they can keep you up to date on the latest. Tune in every day for a full rundown of tech news with context and analysis.
[00:01:23] Taylor Swift and Satanism.
[00:03:46] Spiritual Warfare.
[00:07:25] True crime book adaptations.
[00:11:24] Heart rate scare and medication.
[00:14:47] Microdosing mushrooms for depression.
[00:18:34] Airbnb problems.
[00:22:16] Yeti’s welcome home kisses.
[00:25:31] The influence of Keith Olbermann.
[00:28:54] Road rage and relationships.
[00:34:09] Party Down revival successful.
[00:36:22] Promo Swap with Tech Meme Ride Home.
[00:39:33] Gluten-free dining recommendations.
[00:43:22] Disney World wait times app.
[00:48:10] Interacting with the audience.
You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network
BackBeat Media Podcast Network
Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptTV Party (Again)
[00:00:00] Brett: Hey, this is Overtired. You knew that, but I’m, I’m just telling you, this is Overtired. And I’m Brett Terpstra. I’m here with Christina Warren. Jeff Severs. Gunzel is out this week. He is simultaneously out of town and sick. Um, like either, either one would be sufficient cause to miss an episode, but he did.
[00:00:26] Brett: He had to go for both. He’s an overachiever.
[00:00:30] Christina: That sucks. It does look like he is very cozy like that. The photo he sent us from, uh, his cabin, um, uh, near the, the, the lake looks
[00:00:39] Brett: Lake Michigan. Yeah.
[00:00:40] Christina: Michigan looks great, but um, that
[00:00:43] Brett: or some great lake. I actually don’t know where
[00:00:46] Christina: I was gonna say, I don’t know what great lake it is, but it’s, it, it looks very lake like. It looks great. So, you know, love that for them, but hate that he’s sick.
[00:00:56] Brett: I was, uh, I was just in Chicago, so I’ve, I’ve [00:01:00] seen the Great Lakes this week too. Um, yeah. So let’s, let’s start with the mental health corner. I’ll let you go first. I have some, I have some fun updates, you know, my usual shit. But, uh, where, how are you doing?
[00:01:14] Mental Health Corner: Satanic Panic edition
[00:01:14] Christina: I’m doing okay. I’m doing okay. I’m in a weird situation where, um, I’m trying to decide if I wanna talk about this or not. I don’t think my mom listens to this podcast.
[00:01:26] Brett: I, I explicitly tell my mother not to listen to this podcast.
[00:01:30] Christina: Yeah, I’m pretty sure my mom does not listen to this podcast, so I feel like I can. Okay. I need some advice from you on this. All right. My mom saw an Instagram repost of a viral TikTok, saw some other things where people have posted imagery from Taylor Swift’s concerts, like the current one. And she called me very upset, telling me that, um, she’d hoped I hadn’t already bought tickets [00:02:00] for us in Atlanta because, um, she’s concerned that, that Taylor Swift is, is promoting, um, uh, satanism and, uh, and, and, and, and, and, and like witching, like, like Wiccan shit.
[00:02:13] Christina: Like, like, like, like that stuff. Because apparently there is like a moment of the show that has some like kind of illusions to. Like, I guess 17th century, 18th century, like witchcraft sort of stuff. And some woman on TikTok, uh, is, is convinced that, that it’s, it’s all a sign and, and talking about all these things.
[00:02:38] Christina: And, um, I tried to like convince her otherwise, but I haven’t really talked to her since that happened. And, um, you have more experience with this than I do.
[00:02:51] Brett: Yeah.
[00:02:52] Christina: How does one convince their parents that someone is not a satanist?
[00:02:56] Brett: it depends on how reasonable their parents are
[00:02:59] Christina: Okay.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Brett: as far as I know. Your mom’s a pretty reasonable
[00:03:02] Christina: She’s incredibly reasonable. Yeah. But I also like, don’t want her to be uncomfortable, but like, I, I also, this is like, just this is not true.
[00:03:09] Brett: right. Well, so like for me, this would involve a whole discussion of the satanic panics that have happened in the eighties and are happening again now. Like there’s this whole resurgence of this, like, uh, ever since that little Naz video.
[00:03:25] Christina: Right.
[00:03:27] Brett: there’s just this whole, like the media is full of sat satanic images and it’s gonna drive kids to commit suicide and kill each other, and murders and mayhem.
[00:03:38] Brett: Um, so that would be where I would start with my parents. He’s just talking about how destructive that was and how none of it has ever turned out to be true. But for my parents, it’s very much like they’re, they live in a world of spiritual warfare. If, if it’s not God giving them challenges, it’s the devil trying to keep them from God and like [00:04:00] literally everything they do in their life.
[00:04:02] Brett: Is spiritual warfare. Um, and they just, they, they view the world in those terms. And, and that makes it very difficult to say, well, that’s not Satanic, when literally everything to them is either godly or satanic. There’s no like in between, uh, if you, if you have someone more reasonable, like your mother, um, just talking about maybe.
[00:04:24] Brett: How accusations of witchcraft have never worked out well for humanity. Um,
[00:04:31] Christina: Yeah, I, I ca I, I kept trying to be like, I was like, I was like, well, I guess maybe this is like Arthur Miller esque. I was like, I, I, you know, because if, if you squint, and the thing is, is that it’s, it’s during this one song, Willow, which she does have a, a video that she did some behind the scenes things in where there is like some like magical elements, mystical elements, and then there is like a, a, a.
[00:04:57] Christina: Uh, something witch remix and I’m like, oh my[00:05:00]
[00:05:00] Brett: Well, that’s, that’s where, that’s where the Satanic panic in the eighties began was with fantasy role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, and like, like it’s fantasy. You know, it’s, it’s fantasy, it’s a story. And also be sure to ask like, what harm is being done? Like, who, who is being, like, what is the end result of, say Taylor Swift did openly embrace Wicca, um, and, and proclaimed herself a Wiccan and used all that imagery, like, who’s it hurting, like is wicken or truly destructive force in our like religious world?
[00:05:38] Christina: I mean, my mom would probably say yes. She would probably say that this is someone like actively trying to like impart the devil onto people or something. But, but
[00:05:48] Brett: a little less reasonable
[00:05:50] Christina: I mean, I think that she would like. Intellectually understand, like what’s the harm? But I think that where she would draw the line, she’d be like, but I don’t want to be a
[00:05:58] Brett: support it. [00:06:00] Sure,
[00:06:00] Christina: Like, like that, that would be the difference, right? Like it’s wouldn’t be like, but so anyway,
[00:06:05] Brett: So you, you need to convince her that that’s not actually what’s that? Show her, show her some of the more ludicrous accusations that are
[00:06:14] Christina: This
[00:06:14] Brett: there right
[00:06:15] Christina: okay, this is what I wanted to do. Because like in, in like the, the post that she sent me, I was like, this person has things like tagged MK Ultra. I’m like, mom, I’m like, this is, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, I’m like, none of this is in any way accurate. I’m like, this, this whole thing is, is, is is ludicrous.
[00:06:35] Christina: I. She’s on, uh, Taylor Swift is a Christian. Like, she’s not like, uh, she’s not a Christian artist, but like, she’s like, she’s, that’s how she’s like, defined herself, so I’m not gonna, you know, like question that. Anyway, the whole thing, I felt like I was in the Twilight Zone. I was like, what’s happening here?
[00:06:56] Christina: Um, but I, but I appreciate your, the, the, the Satanic [00:07:00] panic thing, I think is, is good grounding because that whole thing was bullshit and. We actually listened to a true crime book about that when I was in high school. Um, that was, uh, that, that had made for tea. Movie was made about it. It was, it was a book called Cruels Out and, um, it, it, uh, I think the guy that, um, Janet Maslin wrote that book about, uh, Joe McGinnis, I think he was the author.
[00:07:27] Christina: But, um, Or Janet Malcolm rather. Um, but uh, it’s called, uh, cruels Out and in the ma tv movie. The reason I remember this is because we all listened to this audio book on a, on a trip, and then I found out that like Blithe Dan and Gwyneth Paltrow, before she was Gwyneth Paltrow, like were in this like made for TV movie, like adaptation of it.
[00:07:51] Christina: Which, know, in 1998 was like a really funny thing to.
[00:07:57] Brett: Sure. Do you want to hear [00:08:00] what my mom came at me with this morning?
[00:08:01] Christina: Yes.
[00:08:03] Brett: Um, she, she reads poorly sourced articles and takes ’em as truth, and then when the conversation over breakfast on Saturday morning quiets down, she has been in the habit of like doing these. What about. Um, statements and apparently, um, and I don’t, I don’t know how much veracity there is to this, but, uh, she claims that Joe Biden just signed a law that will turn all currency in the US digital and the government will have full access to all of our money.
[00:08:36] Brett: And then she follows that, like if everything kind of went silent, cuz I don’t. I haven’t, I haven’t read what she’s talking about. I don’t, like, I can’t, I can’t argue against her sources. My, my usual reply is, what are your sources? But I, I didn’t even have the energy for that. And then she follows it up with, and, you know, the I M F has an agenda to control the world or some shit.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] Brett: Yo man, so everything went silent and we all just sat there in silence for a moment cuz I wasn’t gonna feed her like conspiracy. And, and my dad’s like, well on a lighter note and starts talking about like home improvement or whatever we usually talk about. It was, my mom’s definitely becoming a conspiracy theorist.
[00:09:19] Brett: Like she latches onto stuff and gets really angry about it and like wants to talk about it.
[00:09:24] Christina: Right. Which, which I, this is like, this is the, this is the one thing where like I, I, yeah. I become like worried about this. Cause I saw what like, Talk radio did to my dad. But my mom, I’ve always thought it was like much more sane and much more reasonable. Um, and look, if she doesn’t wanna go to a concert, if she doesn’t feel like it’s gonna be comfortable or whatever, that’s fine.
[00:09:51] Christina: I just like don’t want her to miss out on a good experience because of some insane bitch on TikTok.
[00:09:58] Brett: Yeah, and, and some [00:10:00] unfounded fear for sure.
[00:10:01] Christina: Exactly.
[00:10:03] Brett: All.
[00:10:03] Christina: All right, so that’s sort of my mental health update. I’m trying to figure out like how to like, you know, tell someone I love more than anything else. This is, this isn’t true.
[00:10:14] Brett: That can be difficult when someone comes up with, when someone comes at you with something that’s so far out of left field, uh, it’s, it gets really hard to like argue. Like, I mean, you could just say that’s ridiculous,
[00:10:27] Christina: I mean, I did,
[00:10:28] Brett: but that’s ineffective,
[00:10:30] Christina: but I also wanna be like, You know, like make her feel comfortable, compassionate. Well, I, yeah, cause I’m compassionate cause it’s like, look, I look, if I had like a deep seated belief and like I thought that I saw something that was like, oh well this shows something that is gonna be supportive of something that I am very much against.
[00:10:46] Christina: Cuz again, like her thing would never be like, oh, you can’t go and this is immoral and this shouldn’t exist. It would be like, I don’t wanna be a party to this. Which is a little more reasonable. It’s still not reasonable to, I think, [00:11:00] take cues from anyone who uses the MK Ultra hashtag, but,
[00:11:05] Brett: Yeah. All right.
[00:11:07] Christina: all right. All right. Let, let, let’s move on to you because I, I wanna hear about your updates, especially cause you’ve got a bunch of things you need to hear about, Yeti, need to hear about, uh, what, uh, what Michigan was like, need to hear about, uh, your, your Adderall shortage.
[00:11:19] Brett: yeah. So the mental health update is, is. Relatively short. Um, my, so I think I probably talked about it at the time, but a couple months back I went to the ER because my watch told me that my heart rate had been elevated, like over one 20 bpm for more than 10 minutes, and it wanted me to.
[00:11:40] Brett: Like, seek help if needed. Um, so I did, I don’t fuck around with my heart. We have a history of heart disease in my family. I take these things seriously and I went to the er, they ran tests after tests and EKGs and X-rays and I was fine, like ev in my, my blood pressure and my pulse were all fine the whole time I was [00:12:00] in the er.
[00:12:00] Brett: And they discharged me after a couple hours and. Uh, maybe follow up with your doctor, see if there’s something else going on. But, so I made a, an appointment a couple months out. That was the soonest I could get in to see my doctor. And then my refill for Vivance came around and my psychiatrist noticed this.
[00:12:19] Brett: Heart issue that sent me to the ER on my, on my record with no follow up yet from my doctor and said that she wasn’t comfortable refilling my meds, even though all my test results are on there and she can see them. Um, she’s like, if your doctor approves, he can refill your, your meds, but my doctor will never refill psych meds.
[00:12:42] Brett: Like he, he will always defer that to his psychiatrist. So that means fortunately my appointment is on Monday, so I’m only gonna be without Vivance for a few days. Um, and. It sucks because it leads to like suddenly [00:13:00] going off it, uh, the, the dopamine crash leads to depression and then going back on it can trigger mania for me, uh, being bipolar and whatnot.
[00:13:10] Brett: Um, so that’s a little sketchy. Hopefully it’s just a, a couple day thing. I really hope this isn’t the start of another like drought. Stimulants. Um, but I did, so a friend I’ve been talking for a while about microdosing and, uh, a buddy of mine, uh, finally got his shroom growing operation up and running. Um, so I got my first like eighth of shrooms and have just been taking like maybe a half inch of stem.
[00:13:45] Brett: Or a small cap a day for the past few days. And I don’t trip at all. Like I barely, nothing seems to happen, but it does seem to help my mood. Um, I’m a lot less interested [00:14:00] in things like alcohol, uh, when, when I’m doing this microdosing and I need to, I need to do a little more research and find out what the actual dosage should be and how you tell, like with acid, it’s easier to.
[00:14:13] Brett: Have micro dot blotters, but with shrooms, like you never know the potency of the mushroom, so it’s hard to be like, you need exactly, you know, a half inch of stem or whatever. Um, so I’m still trying to figure that out, but it seems to be working, it seems to be doing what I want it to do, where it, it helps my mood, it helps my creativity without triggering mania.
[00:14:40] Christina: Okay, that’s all really good.
[00:14:42] Brett: And like I’m depressed enough right now that it’s, um, it’s, it’s a little hard to tell that it if it’s working, but I can tell the before and after difference when I take my daily dosage. Um, So I, I think it does elevate my mood a little and maybe a [00:15:00] little stronger dose would help me. But I definitely, especially in a workday, I don’t want to end up tripping.
[00:15:06] Brett: Like, I don’t, I don’t need to be in a Zoom meeting with like hallucinations or anything.
[00:15:13] Christina: No,
[00:15:14] Brett: that would, that would suck. So, so I’m being very careful about it, but I really, I think, I think I’m on the right path. I think this is a good, uh, A good antidepressant, uh, treatment that works with my bipolar. So thus far I give it, I give it one thumbs up and we’ll hope for better results moving forward.
[00:15:36] Christina: Yeah, for sure. Um, and, um, and I, I hope. Yeah, I, I, I hope you can like, find some sort of up, like decent way, like you said, to be able to, to microdose this so that it’s, you know, yeah. Not gonna inhibit your work because it sounds like it could be a great thing, but it also feels like this is what’s hard about this sort of stuff.
[00:15:56] Christina: Like Ketamine therapy is a similar. Thing [00:16:00] I, although I think guess that’s a little bit different because you can kind of do it in, in, you know, like treatment periods of time and, you know what I mean? Like, and they’re like, okay, this will have these long lasting effects. Whereas like, the microdosing in this way, you have to really think about, okay, how do I get the, um, whatever the therapeutic benefits are.
[00:16:19] Christina: Um, but you know, I don’t wanna be baked.
[00:16:23] Brett: Yeah, exactly. Yep. It’s a fine line, I think. Um, I’ve never done this small amount of mushrooms before, so I don’t know, like where the cutoff is. I’ve always been like, yeah, I just, I’ll have to eat three and just like see what happens. Um, so this like, just try a little bit, uh, like I don’t, I don’t know where they’ll line is.
[00:16:44] Brett: I don’t know where you actually start tripping, but. I may find it if I keep experimenting.
[00:16:50] Travels in Michigan
[00:16:50] Brett: So anyway, yeah, last week I was in Michigan. Um, I spent three grand, um, on a trip [00:17:00] to Michigan, which is if I were gonna spend three grand on a trip, uh, Michigan is not where I would choose to do it, but I had a good.
[00:17:09] Christina: Yeah, tell me about.
[00:17:10] Brett: we, uh, we had our first night in Chicago with, uh, Dan, and we saw Erin Dawson in the morning, almost saw,
[00:17:19] Christina: How’s she
[00:17:20] Brett: oh, she’s great. She’s great. She, she was having fun. Her band is going on tour. Genital shame. That’s why she was in Chicago. Um, to, uh, to rehearse with her, her new lineup. Um, And, and Dan and his, his recent wife Hyundai are, are doing great.
[00:17:39] Brett: And Chicago is full of vegan dining and gluten-free dining. And it was, we had some great food, great dinner, great breakfast, got on the road. Um, our Airbnb in Michigan, uh, was. It. It wanted to be nice. [00:18:00] Like you walk in and the first, the first, you just come off the road, right? See your head for the bathroom, and the first thing you discover is like a heated B day with a dryer and everything, and you’re like, okay, this place is gonna be all right.
[00:18:13] Brett: But then you go to the sink and you try to get hot water out of it and it won’t come out. It just stays frigid. So we discovered you only get hot water in the kitchen and the bathroom if the dishwasher is running. Um, and, uh, but there was always hot water in the steam shower that it, it was a nice steam shower, big place, big couches, big screen tv, uh, a dock outside that led to a nice lake and like overall, like on the surface, seemed nice, had some problems.
[00:18:46] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say this. Okay. I’ve had this experience with a number of Airbnbs, which is one of the reasons why like obviously you get more space and it can be a better option in some cases than a hotel, but sometimes I’m just like, I would rather [00:19:00] get a hotel, if I’m being honest, because it’ll be one of those things where you can tell like, it looks great, the photos look awesome, cuz that’s all they’re doing it for.
[00:19:08] Christina: They’re doing it for the photos, they’re slapping it together, swimming for the photos, and then they’re not fixing things like in this case, oh, by the way, if you want hot water, you have to be running the dishwasher.
[00:19:18] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And there was a, there was a bunch of stuff.
[00:19:21] Christina: which, which, that to me like that, that signifies a pretty significant plumbing problem.
[00:19:26] Brett: Yeah,
[00:19:27] Christina: There’s something going on with like your, your hookups at that point, and I don’t know what those problems are or how to fix it. I just know that like, that
[00:19:35] Brett: yeah.
[00:19:36] Christina: my, my, my, my, my engineer like, you know, pattern recognition brain is like, oh, okay, that’s something.
[00:19:44] Brett: Yeah. Um, like it was great having a whole house, um, having multiple bedrooms and room to have like L’s family over for movie nights, a whole kitchen. We could cook pizzas in and everything. We, uh, we, we, we made the [00:20:00] crust, we made our gluten-free crust and we baked them and set them on the table on top of parchment paper to cool.
[00:20:07] Brett: And the kitchen table was this. Fake wood with cheap paint on it, and it turned white underneath where we put the pizza crust. Even though they were cool enough to hold in your hand and they weren’t steaming or anything and we just set them down, but they left these white circles on the table. So Ella and I compiled this whole list of everything that was wrong with the Airbnb so that if he came at us, For, for payment on that, I would just be like, well, you know, it was a nice state, but it would be a real shame to put all this stuff into a review for you.
[00:20:41] Brett: Um, so we’re just kind of sitting on that. We haven’t heard anything. I think it’s fine,
[00:20:45] Christina: No, I’m sure it’ll be fine. Usually what they care about are like the, the cleaning fees and like if you were to like, seriously break something like the other stuff, it, it’s unlikely in some of these cases that the, the owner even like, [00:21:00] Sees the place. You know what I
[00:21:01] Brett: kind of, that’s kind of what I figured. Um,
[00:21:04] Christina: yeah.
[00:21:05] Brett: I did, I, I had tail scale set up and, uh, I, I was able to access my home network, my, all my, all my computers, including my sonology, all using tail scale, which is. Like, I’m used to setting up like a whole, uh, like dynamic d n s system and like, and like s SSHing and setting up all the ports and everything.
[00:21:30] Brett: And with tail scale, it was just like to sign into my GitHub account and all of my, all of my network and machines were accessible and it was, it was really nice. Um, I appreciated that. And, and then there’s Yeti. The last part of my update, like Yeti was a trooper. Like we had a whole conversation before I left that, you know, asked him to try to stick around till we got back and like, but take care of yourself and you know, if shit [00:22:00] goes down, you have my permission to do what needs to be done.
[00:22:03] Brett: And uh, he seemed to take that to heart and. My, our house sitter sent us pictures like every day of like Yeti eating and like sleeping under blankets and like curling up with her. And uh, and I got home and he was in great shape, like climbed on top of me and just kept giving me nose bumps for like, for like 20 minutes.
[00:22:26] Brett: He just kept like bumping my nose with his nose, uh, which is his way of like giving kisses cuz he knows how much it annoys me when he starts licking. So he is learned to just bump my nose and it was just constant. Like, he just kept coming back and being like, I’m so glad you’re home. It was very nice.
[00:22:43] Christina: Aw. All right. Well, I’m glad he’s doing okay, but that, that, that has to be so nerve-wracking for you. Like every time you even go for groceries, like, oh, you probably get
[00:22:53] Brett: will he be? No, we go for groceries. We have to go to the co-op. Um, with all of our dietary [00:23:00] restrictions, grocery delivery isn’t available. Um, yeah, so we started watching Sports Night. Do you remember Sports
[00:23:09] TV TV TV
[00:23:09] Christina: I do remember Sports Night, Aaron Sorkin’s first show.
[00:23:11] Brett: Yeah. And, and it has some, some of Aaron Sorkin’s best dialogue. Um, but it’s got a laugh track and it drives me nuts.
[00:23:22] Brett: Like there’s obviously no studio audience. Like this is a canned laugh track. Why did, uh, like I think this was a nineties thing,
[00:23:30] Christina: it was,
[00:23:32] Brett: Just tell people something’s funny by adding the laugh
[00:23:35] Christina: Right. Well, because, I mean, look, this was before they were doing the one, the, the, um, one camera sitcoms, um, and um, like, like a news radio, which is, is similar to sport science some ways, but was actually shot in front of a
[00:23:49] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. And, and it shows.
[00:23:51] Christina: And it does. Right. Um, but, but that was a show where I remember on the commentary tracks for, for that show on, on, when that came out on D B D, [00:24:00] Paul Sims, the, the creator, talking about the fact that that would’ve been, like, had they made it like in the early two thousands, like if they’d made it like eight years later, like after it debuted, like, you know, if they made it five years after it went off the air, it would’ve been a single camera comedy.
[00:24:19] Christina: Um, and, uh, but, but you know, when they made it, it wasn’t, and sports night, I think even more so like the second season, they, they definitely like reduced the laugh track more
[00:24:29] Brett: I, I’m only on the first season, so I was hoping that would be true.
[00:24:32] Christina: It, it, it is. But s sports night was, it’s, it’s such a shame cuz it was on A, B, C and A B. C had, like, they had no idea what they had.
[00:24:40] Christina: And, and I, I don’t even wanna say that. Like they fucked up and that it was like this show that was going to be a hit. Cuz I don’t think it would’ve been, I don’t think there’s any scenario where that show ever would’ve been a hit.
[00:24:50] Brett: could fly now though.
[00:24:52] Christina: Yes, yes. But I mean, in that era, and I mean on that network and I mean in that,
[00:24:57] Brett: Yeah,
[00:24:58] Christina: Like, [00:25:00] because cuz it came out in, in 98, 99.
[00:25:03] Christina: Um, it was, it was like a year before West Wing. And West Wing was 99, I think. Um, 99 or 2000. But, um, it was, uh, a great show. It’s so, it’s funny because I always mentioned sports people and I’m like, yeah, it’s like, it’s, it’s his first show about Keith Alderman. Um, and, and, and, and people are like, huh? And I’m like, I’m like, this is how influential, like, like Keith Orman is.
[00:25:31] Christina: It’s like he’s been the, the, the, you know, the, the, the reason for not one, but two A
[00:25:36] Brett: the, the Muse. The muse
[00:25:38] Christina: Muse. Absolutely. I’m like, like, absolutely. It’s like, you know, the newsroom and, and sports night. Like it’s totally, it, it’s like all, it’s all Keith Warman, but. Uh, no, but, but, but, uh, yeah, the show it, um, September 22nd, 98.
[00:25:53] Christina: So, yeah. So when it debuted, like there was just nothing that you could, um, [00:26:00] there’s no way. I don’t think that. Uh, in that sitcom environment, like when News Radio, which was on a network that was better for sitcoms, which was, uh, N B C. Uh, but the, the schedulers hated news Radio was the real thing. Um, the, the, the network president didn’t like it, it did very well when it had a consistent and good time slot, but they,
[00:26:20] Brett: so good.
[00:26:22] Christina: News radios. News radios, and I think news radio could have worked in the nineties. Sports night. I don’t know, like. I, I feel like it would work now, and I feel like it would’ve worked like five years after it came out. But like, we needed Malcolm in the middle, you know what I mean? Like, like, like, like, like, like we needed that we needed, we needed brick teacher base as the office.
[00:26:45] Christina: Like we needed
[00:26:46] Brett: I’ve, I’ve gone back, I went back and started watching Malcolm in the Middle again, and it, it’s not like news radio totally held up for me. Like I, I breezed through, I binged like all of that [00:27:00] again, just this year. Um, Malcolm in the middle. It’s been a, it’s been like, uh, I got nothing else to watch. I guess I’ll watch him, Malcolm.
[00:27:07] Christina: totally. But it is one of those like, like family sitcoms. My my point being though, like that was the first one like that in Scrubs and Malcolm in the Middle was before Scrubs, but they were
[00:27:15] Brett: I had the same experience with Scrubs. Can’t do it.
[00:27:18] Christina: Scrubs holds up for me, but I also insist on watching it with the original music, um,
[00:27:24] Brett: Oh, I know we’ve talked
[00:27:25] Christina: Yeah, we’ve talked about that. But, but Scrub, but, but, but, but, but Scrubs holds up for me. But both of those were like the first, like, you know, there was the, the UK office of course, but I mean like in terms of US tv where you were like, okay, we can play with what a sitcom is format wise, because Larry Sanders.
[00:27:42] Christina: Didn’t have a laugh track and, and, um, uh, many of the writers in the Larry Sanders show also worked on News radio and, and then went on to like be people like Joe App Patel. Um, and so, but that was an H B O show, right? And I, I feel like Larry Sanders in many ways is sort of a, like, [00:28:00] if that, that approach had been taken, you know, um, like for, for Sports Night, I think sports, And if SportsLine were, say, on HBO o, that would’ve been one thing, but it wasn’t, it was on abc.
[00:28:11] Christina: And so I think you needed like the Malcolm in the middle of the scrubs. Really, the Malcolm in the middle is to be like, okay, we can re, we can have a different thing than the normal, you know, four camera, uh, television sitcom with the laugh track.
[00:28:25] Brett: Yes. Can I tell you about another show that I’m sure you haven’t
[00:28:29] Christina: No, please do.
[00:28:30] Brett: Um, there’s this new Netflix series. Mini-series show. It’s a show, it’s a series. They call it a series, right? It’s like 10 episodes. I don’t think, I don’t think like, based on the ending, I don’t think they planned for a second season.
[00:28:44] Brett: I think it’s a thing, but it’s called Beef, uh, with Stephen Ewen and Ellie Wong.
[00:28:51] Christina: Okay. Yeah, I, I, I’ve heard of this. I think.
[00:28:53] Brett: Yeah, and it’s like these two main characters get into a road rage incident in the first [00:29:00] episode, and it becomes like they, they start getting each other’s like license plates and tracking each other down. And this weird relationship develops as like as the pranks or the revenge intensifies.
[00:29:14] Brett: They also develop this kind of like respect for each other and. I won’t give away the ending, but like through the course of it, there’s absolutely a relationship between these two people who on the surface hate each other, want, want to destroy each other’s lives. And, and Ali Wong plays a, a rich woman who just became even richer and, and Stephen plays a.
[00:29:38] Brett: Contractor whose business is failing and is scraping by and living in his, in an apartment with his brother. And like the two of them come together in these weird ways. And it is, I binged it over like three days and totally, totally. The ending is totally worth it, like it pays off. So if, if you’re looking for a [00:30:00] short run of a show, um, I found.
[00:30:04] Brett: As compelling, if not more compelling than I found Wednesday. And I thought Wednesday was pretty good, but
[00:30:09] Christina: Wednesday was okay. I, I like Ali Wong and I like Steve Wynn.
[00:30:12] Brett: yeah, Ali Wong is so good in this too, like all of her like kind of, uh, neurosis, but confidence, like confident neurosis, that’s what I would call Ali Wong. Um, and it all comes through really well in this character. She’s in. She plays it excellently.
[00:30:29] Christina: Okay. I, I, I, I will, I will give this a watch. I’m looking at this now. This was an A 24 show and apparently there was a bidding war. What’s interesting to me about this is, I guess it is just for movies, but I thought that Apple had some sort of exclusive deal with a 24. And, and clearly that is not the case, but it seeming like this would’ve been, it probably wouldn’t have had a second season either, but like this would’ve been like a good Apple TV thing.
[00:30:54] Brett: Are you watching? Um, is it shrinking? Shrinking on Apple [00:31:00] tv?
[00:31:00] Christina: am not,
[00:31:01] Brett: It is really good.
[00:31:03] Christina: are you watching new Ted Lasso?
[00:31:05] Brett: Yes, of course. Absolutely. Loving it. Loving it. It’s maybe the best season yet, but, um, shrinking. Uh, I had this funny experience. It’s a, it’s a, it’s a fun, it’s a fun show and it’s about, uh, therapists and, uh, one of them is played by dude, from how I Met Your mother, like the big dude.
[00:31:27] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:31:27] Brett: Meeting, forgetting Sarah Marshall
[00:31:29] Christina: Jason Siegel.
[00:31:30] Brett: Yeah. Thank you. Um, and then the other one, and this is the way l put it, uh, the, the elder therapist on this, in this group is played by the guy who starred next to Chewbacca. That was Elle’s description. Like, not Han Solo, but the guy who played next to Chewbacca and I think Harrison Ford would, would appreciate that, that that was how my girlfriend [00:32:00] knew him
[00:32:00] Christina: I mean, I, I don’t know if he would, I, I, I mean that I, I honestly don’t know if he would appreciate that or not. I think that he’d be like, hi, I’m Harrison fucking Ford,
[00:32:11] Brett: also, Indiana Jones.
[00:32:12] Christina: Jones,
[00:32:13] Brett: may, you may be familiar with my work.
[00:32:15] Christina: I was gonna say, it’s like you, you there, there’s a bunch of other things. No, but I have seen, I have seen the trailers or the, the ads for this, but I haven’t watched it, but I, I have been
[00:32:24] Brett: It’s good. It’s good.
[00:32:25] Christina: good. Okay. All right. I’ll watch it. Um,
[00:32:28] Brett: to it every week.
[00:32:29] Christina: okay. Um, I will see if I have access to, um, all of, uh, um, I’ll see if I have access to all of those on, on the way that I have access to some of the press stuff early. Um, because my, my, my, my problem with this now, and I’ve become one of those people that I hate for certain shows.
[00:32:51] Christina: I will absolutely still watch like week by week, you know, but when I’m getting into a new thing, especially like if I’ve missed it when like it. Started, it’s [00:33:00] hard sometimes I’m like, I just wanna binge it, but like if I get into it when it premieres, um, then I’m okay. Um, like, uh, the final season of succession is, is airing right now.
[00:33:12] Christina: And so it’s like the best thing that happens on Sundays is, you know, like 6:00 PM uh, Pacific Time. I’m like, all right, I can fire up the H B O Max app. I can watch success.
[00:33:24] Brett: What was the, what was the, uh, apple TV show with, uh,
[00:33:30] Christina: Adam Scott Severance.
[00:33:32] Brett: severance. Um, I, I think that has another season coming.
[00:33:36] Christina: it does.
[00:33:36] Brett: Yeah. That’s exciting
[00:33:38] Christina: because they, uh, the
[00:33:39] Brett: Party Party Down is back on right
[00:33:41] Christina: is, I No, I was gonna say I
[00:33:42] Brett: good.
[00:33:43] Christina: No, it is so good. No, I was gonna say though, that’s, that, that’s the unfortunate thing about Party Down is that they couldn’t get Lissie Kaplan because she was doing stuff, but they had to work around Adam’s Scott’s schedule for a severance.
[00:33:53] Christina: So like
[00:33:55] Brett: yes, I totally miss Lizzie Kaplan. I, the show is not the same [00:34:00] without her, but it is still, it’s still very good.
[00:34:03] Christina: Is still very good. and I, and I’m very, and I’m very glad that it, that it’s come back. Also, following up on a thing that I ranted about, Netflix did go ahead and just pay off the money. And now that they, they are the exclusive home of everything, arrested Development. So they took a arrested development off of Hulu, which fine, I don’t care.
[00:34:23] Christina: Um, you know, and, uh, but at least seasons four and five are available. Um, so, so it did not expire and leave. They, they paid the money cuz yes, Netflix paid the money. It’s, I’m sure it was a very small amount of money to renegotiate on. And Disney has also made it clear that like they are okay with licensing things to other streamers.
[00:34:46] Christina: It’s like they don’t need ownership. It’s like, and you already have part ownership of the last two seasons just. It’s the exclusive home, it’s fine. But, um, that made me think of that cuz I was like, oh, you know, party down. [00:35:00] Is I, I think that it, coming back, I think it’s, I think it’s more successful. Like, I think the episodes are better, uh, than rest of development.
[00:35:07] Christina: Um, at least the, the first edit, I think when they reedited season four, rest development, season four was fine. I think the first frame of it is, I, I get what they were trying to do. It didn’t work at all. Um, But, uh, but yeah, no, I, I love Lizzie Kaplan. She’s about to be in. Um, maybe it has started, but, uh, but, but, uh, fatal Attraction.
[00:35:31] Christina: Oh, no, no. It starts, um, uh, in, uh, like three weeks. They’re, uh, they’re doing a Fatal Attraction reboot on Paramount Plus,
[00:35:38] Brett: All right. I have Paramount Plus. I’ll watch that.
[00:35:41] Christina: I mean, s.
[00:35:42] Brett: I’ll watch anything. Lizzy
[00:35:44] Christina: Me too. B b. But this is like this, this is actually a really good cast. So it’s Lucy Kaplan playing the Alex Forest character. That’s, uh, um, Glen Close’s character and Fatal attraction. Joshua Jackson is playing. Dan, who was the, um, uh, Michael Douglas character and [00:36:00] Amanda, Pete is playing. Um, uh, Beth, who was the, uh, the wife who’s the actress’s name I can’t think of, uh, right now.
[00:36:08] Christina: Um, so. I’m, I’m super into this.
[00:36:13] Brett: Nice. Yes. All right. Um, should we do some gratitude?
[00:36:19] Christina: No. First we need to do a, uh, promo swap.
[00:36:22] Brett: Oh my God. Like the whole reason we did the episode this week was cuz we had a pro. Thank you so much. I’m, I’m so glad you’re on the ball. These mushrooms are not helping.
[00:36:32] Promo Swap: Techmeme Ride Home
[00:36:32] Brett: Um. So this week we are doing a promo swap with the Tech Meme Ride Home. When the New Yorker magazine asked Mark Zuckerberg how he gets his news.
[00:36:43] Brett: He said, the one news source he definitely follows is Tech Meme. For four years now, the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast has been Silicon Valley’s favorite tech news source. The podcast has become so successful in fact that it launched a venture fund where the [00:37:00] listeners to the show are the LPs and the fund.
[00:37:03] Brett: The tech meme ride home is like T L D R as a service. It’s not just the latest headlines from the world of tech, it’s also the context around the latest news of the day. It’s all the top stories, the top posts and tweets and conversations about those stories as well as the behind the scenes analysis.
[00:37:22] Brett: Guests who have come on to lend their expertise include Andreessen Horowitz’s, Chris Dixon, and Bloomberg’s Apple Rumor King Mark Germond. The folks at Tech Meme are online all day reading everything so they can catch you. So listen to the One podcast. Anyone who’s anyone in Silicon Valley listens to you every single day.
[00:37:43] Brett: Search your podcast app now for Ride Home and subscribe to the Tech Meme Ride Home podcast just in case Overtired has had not been giving you enough tech lately.
[00:37:54] Christina: Yeah. Um, also it’s, it’s great, uh, TLDR podcast and it’s from, uh, Brian McCullough who, um, [00:38:00] is, uh, is involved with it, who, uh, did the internet history podcast, um, and the book, um, how the, how the internet was built or how the web was built or something. Um, Brian’s great. I’ve been on, um, his podcast a number of times, and, and Te Ride Home is a very good, uh, I hate to agree with Mark Zuckerberg on anything but.
[00:38:17] Christina: Where I go for like my tech news and up and update and, and the, the Ride Home podcast is really good.
[00:38:22] Brett: Yeah, that, that wouldn’t have been the opening line. I’d have gone for like name dropping Mark Zuckerberg as like your opening line for the promo read, but they wrote it. I went with it.
[00:38:34] Christina: yeah. Uh, but, but it genuinely is like a website I go to that and Media Gazer, which is like the, the, the media version of Tech Meme. I go to those sites like nonstop. So,
[00:38:45] Grapptitude
[00:38:45] Brett: All right. So my gratitude, gratitude, um, my gratitude is, uh, an app on my phone that came in so handy on this trip. It’s called Find Me Gluten Free. [00:39:00] Um, or find me GF as it appears on your phone. And it is a comprehensive list of all the, it’s like Yelp, but for gluten-free dining. And it will find you all of the restaurants that either have gluten-free options or a dedicated gluten-free menu, or our dedicated gluten free.
[00:39:22] Brett: And you can see reviews, you can read from actual. Like people with celiac disease that absolutely like have to know what’s gluten free. Like I’m, I’m sensitive to gluten. It causes me intestinal problems. Uh, but I will survive. But, but to have like people who can literally die from it. Writing the reviews, uh, gives me a lot of reassurance and it found us some amazing food that, that, like searching gluten free on Yelp did not find.
[00:39:55] Brett: Um, so I, I highly recommend. Find me [00:40:00] gluten free. You can pay for like the paid tier seems to be really geared towards Celiac, um, and, and of less interest to me, like just the free version alone. Did everything I needed it to do. Um, Which is not to say I am opposed to paying for it, uh, just none of the perks of the paid version really seemed, uh, of importance to me thus far.
[00:40:28] Brett: Um, so, so even if you’re, you’re gluten free and just want a free app to, to explore with, it is, it’s a great choice.
[00:40:37] Christina: Fantastic. Fantastic. So, um, that’s really good, I think for people to, like, that’s, that’s a good thing to know, like, It’s good to have these sorts of alternatives to some of, like the, the big mainstays, especially, um, if they’re updated. Well,
[00:40:52] Brett: Yeah, and that’s the thing, like there’s a big, there’s a big. Audience, big enough user base that it actually is very [00:41:00] complete and full of reviews. Like even more reviews for most of these restaurants than you would find on like Yelp. And, and I think that’s critical for an app like this is to have enough people, uh, submitting restaurants and reviewing restaurants to actually make it worthwhile.
[00:41:16] Brett: And it, it’s pulled that off.
[00:41:20] Christina: For sure. So my, um, pick. Um, but no, but I like that it, it, and it, I, like I said, like I think keeping like those communities, like active is the hardest thing, so, you know what I mean? Like, so it’s, I’m glad, glad that you found an app that has like a, a, a, a wide, uh, user base, and that’s really good. On that. On that note, I’m also going to have a um, uh, iPhone app.
[00:41:46] Christina: Um, this was one that I used. When I was at Disney World actually, and, but it’s spring break. This might be useful to people if they are going [00:42:00] to like the, the, the Disney parks or, or whatever. Um, it does cost money if you wanna get the, the full benefits, but honestly, it’s worth it. So the whole thing is, is that, um, the, the.
[00:42:14] Christina: Like default, like Disney World and like Disneyland app suck, like the Disneyland app from what I understand is better. And my, my past experience with that one has been better. But like the actual like Disney experience app for Disney for, for Walt Disney World and, and all those assorted parks in Orlando is terrible.
[00:42:31] Christina: Like for as much money as Disney has, and for as much as you would think that having a good app experience would be something that would be really good for their bottom line in terms of having people spend more money and whatnot, they really. It’s, it’s bizarre to see a company that has like nailed every other aspect of the experience.
[00:42:49] Christina: Just has like, the tech is terrible and like, like it’s, it’s both the website and the, the app. It’s just not great. Um, but one of the nice features about the app when [00:43:00] it’s working is that it shows you like what your line time is for various rides. Like, like, like what? Like what, what, what the weight is.
[00:43:07] Brett: What is the app called?
[00:43:10] Christina: This app is called, uh, Disney World Lines, um, parentheses, TPS from Touring Plans, but this is better than the actual Disney Experience app.
[00:43:21] Brett: Yeah, I hear you. I just, I just said I was waiting to add it to the show notes.
[00:43:26] Christina: No, I know, but, but I was trying to give some, but I’m trying to give some context to why I’m, I’m recommending this app because, because people would be like, why would I pay for this? When I can get in the Disney Experience app, I can get an update of what the standby line time is.
[00:43:38] Brett: Yep. All right.
[00:43:40] Christina: that time isn’t accurate.
[00:43:41] Christina: Sometimes it is accurate, sometimes it’s way behind. Sometimes it’s, you know, like, uh, an actual line time might be more like 15 minutes and it’ll show 45, or it’ll show two and a half hours and maybe it’ll be like four. So what, um, uh, the, this, uh, this. App from touring plans.com [00:44:00] does, but it’s a, um, it, it’s lines is, is is their app.
[00:44:03] Christina: They have a number of different ones. They have one for Disneyland, they have one for Disney World, and then they have their, um, uh, one for, for, um, Orlando. Um, it’s uh, it’s $18 for a one year subscription. And you’re probably only gonna use the app once. So I’m warning you on that. Right. However, similar to your, like a gluten free dining app, this is a crowdsourced thing where you can see the timelines for both attractions and for, for, for dining.
[00:44:33] Christina: Um, actually where you can. Speed the various parks and you can say, this is how long you’re expected to wait. And you can get ride suggestions like based on like the crowds and based on trends and past days to figure out like, do I wanna wait in this line or do I wanna, do, I wanna wait in this one? And, and, and what’s the overall park busy level?
[00:44:54] Christina: And so it’s really useful to be able to know, hey, [00:45:00] Like, and you can help it out. So like, it has a timer built into the app. So like, you can start the timer, like, I got in line now, and then I stop it when, um, you know, I’m getting off and it’ll let me know like how accurate, you know, like the, the, the posted time was.
[00:45:13] Christina: And, and that feeds, feeds the recommendations.
[00:45:16] Brett: That’s worth $18. If it saved you, like after what you paid for your, your Disney World Pass, if it can save you from spending four hours and align when you didn’t expect to for something that wasn’t like your primary focus for the day, that’s, that’s $18. Like you’ve saved that much money by like getting in shorter lines and taking more advantage of the park.
[00:45:40] Christina: 100%. I completely agree. Um, my point was just that there, I know there are going to be some people who are just like, I’m not paying for this and this
[00:45:48] Brett: I’ve al I’ve already paid to go to Tissie World. I’m not gonna pay for
[00:45:52] Christina: I’ve already paid to go to Disney. I’ve paid a lot of money to go to Disney. I don’t, I don’t wanna, um, uh, do this. I [00:46:00] get that.
[00:46:00] Christina: But this was, this was an app. Just you you’re talking about, um, um, being able to find, you know, uh, recommendations and ti and, you know, things are in food. Maybe think, oh, right. This was actually a really useful app that I, I used while at Disney.
[00:46:15] Brett: Yeah, these are good, good travel apps
[00:46:17] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually, uh, we recommended this one by, uh, by Corey Doctoral.
[00:46:22] Christina: So thank you Corey, for the, for the, for the, for the tip. And, um, I appreciate that. And, uh, yeah, so that’s, that’s my pick.
[00:46:33] Brett: Nice. All right. Well, we have a, a shorter, shorter episode this week, um, minus Jeff, uh, basically 15 minutes that, uh, That, that that would’ve been Jeff time if he were here. But no, um, instead we, that was a good episode. It was a little me media heavy, maybe.
[00:46:56] Christina: No, I think it was good. It
[00:46:57] Brett: of
[00:46:58] Christina: No, it was a good return. It was, honestly, it [00:47:00] was a good return to form. Like I think this was good. This was like a classic over, uh, this look, again, this was like the, the original recipe, Overtired, the original configuration. We, we miss Jeff and, and we hope that his stomach is feeling better.
[00:47:12] Christina: I think Jeff is definitely made the show better, but like, this is like a good throwback like, you know, season two episode of the.
[00:47:20] Brett: we got some like Christina dropping knowledge about like nineties tv. Like that’s, that’s nostalgic for me.
[00:47:28] Christina: Uh, yeah.
[00:47:29] Brett: we just don’t do that enough anymore.
[00:47:32] Christina: We don’t, we don’t. No, but I’m, because I’m gonna go back and I’m gonna watch beef now, which, uh, um, which is, which is great. Um, okay. I think I will too. I’m excited about that. Yeah.
[00:47:44] Brett: Well, Christina, get some sleep.
[00:47:46] Christina: Get some sleep, Brett.
[00:48:00]
Christina interviews Jeff on the years he spent going back and forth to pre-war Iraq, and about his ill-fated post-war trip. Then it’s on to product placement in The White Lotus and, of course, Grapptitude.
Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired.
Mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. Join Khanh and Jules, people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness.
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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptHow Jeff Found Himself in Iraq (Again and Again)
[00:00:00] Christina: You are
[00:00:00] Jeffrey: ready, aren’t you? Oh, I’m doing
[00:00:01] Christina: are ready. Yeah, I was gonna say, we’re already recording. So, and honestly, I don’t even want you to edit this out because this is just, this is, this is what happens when Brett isn’t here.
[00:00:10] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.
[00:00:15] Christina: You’re listening to Overtired. I’m Christina Warren. Joined, joined by, uh, Jeff Severns Guntzel, former M MSNBC star, Jeff Severns Guntzel. Uh, gonna have that linked in in the show
[00:00:26] Jeffrey: They gave Chris Hayes my spot.
[00:00:28] Christina: I mean, honestly, you were robbed. Um, uh, because I, I, I really, I would’ve rather watched you with your indignant, um, like consternation at the prop wish guy.
[00:00:41] Jeff’s Punk Rock to Iraq Origin Story
[00:00:41] Jeffrey: I sent my co-hosts a video from 2003 in the lead up to the Iraq War. And I had been working with an anti-war organization and had been traveling back and forth to Iraq before that, before we knew there would ever even be any kind of war. Couldn’t even imagine. Um, and I [00:01:00] got to go on TV to be a person who has gone back and forth to Iraq and this was an MSNBC appearance that was so incredibly unsatisfying as those things I’m sure always are for anybody who truly cares about what they’re saying.
[00:01:16] Jeffrey: It isn’t just doing it cuz it’s their job, you know, which is another kind of fun. Um, but you know, the thing that I, uh, we’ll, we’ll link to this, but as I look at that younger, younger me that like baby baby me, um, the two things I noticed that I still relate to is this sort of brooding. Stare a little bit down, but not all the way down.
[00:01:41] Jeffrey: And then I’m sw, I’m swiveling back and forth in my chair.
[00:01:47] Christina: That.
[00:01:47] Jeffrey: it was so that, that stuff was so hard for me because the, you know, TV and radio wanted to talk about the politics of it and the [00:02:00] optics of it and all of that stuff. And like as someone who had been traveling back and forth to Iraq, primarily from 1998 to 2001, but then still worked for an organization that sent people to Iraq.
[00:02:11] Jeffrey: Like, it was like, you couldn’t, this wasn’t a good sound bite, but like, I don’t want this war cuz I don’t want my friends to die. You know, like,
[00:02:23] Christina: But you, but you were actually focused, you were actually concerned about the people on the ground, which is the part that people claim to care about, but it’s the thing that gets the least amount of attention. Like, you’ll have your one-off stories, you know, profiling this or that thing, and people will read it and like, oh, this is terrible, and move on.
[00:02:37] Christina: But they, but, but, but it’s, it’s always framed in like the larger geopolitical terms, which on the one hand makes sense because I think if you had to focus on those smaller things, a, it would just be impossible to watch and, and impossible to even kind of grapple with who we are as humanity when we do these things, right.
[00:02:58] Christina: So you have to, I think, take a big picture [00:03:00] approach if you’re going to talk about it at all, but, but B would also just be, is like, you know, If you’re not there, it, it, you know, it, it’s, it’s really hard to get those individual things out, but that is the price we pay. And now we are, um, the 20th anniversary was what, like two weeks ago.
[00:03:21] Jeffrey: yeah.
[00:03:23] Christina: Um,
[00:03:24] Jeffrey: And we’re almost on the 20th anniversary of when I, when I arrived there after the invasion for my final trip there. I.
[00:03:31] Christina: um, we might have talked about this before and if we did, I totally, I, I apologize for asking you again, but what was it like, how did you get into doing the work where you were going there?
[00:03:42] Jeffrey: It’s a really. It’s a really funny, weird story. Um, so I had been in a punk rock band called The Freedom Fighters, which was not a terribly political band. Um, but our one political song we played in LA to a very small audience, and Zach de [00:04:00] Laco was in the audience from Rage Against the Machine. And we had this one kind of obtuse political song.
[00:04:05] Jeffrey: And when it was over, it was a great song. When it was over, he screamed out in approval and it sounded just like a scream from the record. And I was just like, that’s pretty cool. That was kind of neat. It was like we sampled him. Um, anyway, so I was on this, I was in this punk rock band and I was, I had been sort of having like a political awakening since like age eight and.
[00:04:31] Jeffrey: Somehow the years of being in bands and I, I, I worked in a lot of warehouses and dish washed and all this stuff. Like, I was starting to really feel the absence of something that felt truly meaningful to me as like how I spent my time. Um, and, and I was starting to think about leaving the band and just, I don’t know what, I didn’t know what, but the one thing it seemed like you could do is like, travel to places that have political relevance.
[00:04:59] Jeffrey: And, [00:05:00] um, I had that kind of in my mind, but I didn’t have a high school diploma. I hadn’t gone to college at all. It was just like I had a good head on my shoulders, but like, I had to find ways of demonstrating that, which I didn’t really know. I was super shy. I barely looked adults in the eye in, in this period of time.
[00:05:14] Jeffrey: But anyway, so we’re touring and we went to a news stand. Remember those lots of
[00:05:19] Christina: vaguely, yeah.
[00:05:21] Jeffrey: many magazines.
[00:05:22] Christina: I love them so much.
[00:05:24] Jeffrey: I bought a magazine called Covert Action Quarterly, which is an awesome name. It’s like a lefty magazine that’s traditionally looked at the covert work of United States agents, but also globally.
[00:05:37] Jeffrey: I’d never heard of it. I was like, this is a badass title. And that’s the What was so great about newsstands, right, is you could just be like, what is that? I’m
[00:05:45] Christina: Well, I was gonna say, you could like discover all these things. Like I, I, for me, um, I missed like a lot of, I guess, I mean there was like the, the news section of like the supermarket, but it wasn’t until I first went into like a Barnes and Noble that I got kind of like the equivalent,
[00:05:59] Jeffrey: Right,[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Christina: know?
[00:06:00] Jeffrey: right. Totally. Yeah, that’s, I mean, they still do that. Like I was in a Barnes Noble for the first time in a while, the other day, and there was a long run of magazines. The problem is magazines, the ones that have survived are they survived cuz they’re ad-based. And so you get these like just a million glossy magazines where every single, you know, headline and sub-headline is meant to serve the advertisers and it’s boring.
[00:06:24] Jeffrey: And whereas in the olden days you would be like, what the fuck is Covert Action quarterly? So,
[00:06:30] Christina: because you could have all kinds of classified ads and other things, like it didn’t just have to be the big glossies. You could, you know, like they were still advertising bases. Just the internet hadn’t, uh, completely either collapsed that form of, of revenue or, or changed it substantially,
[00:06:44] Jeffrey: Yeah, and the distributors would take your little magazine cause they had a million big magazines. It wasn’t a big deal for them. Um, but, uh, but anyhow, since also called C A Q, it had a cover story about, um, about Iraq. And it was kind of a, this was, this would’ve been like [00:07:00] 1998. And so in 19 91, 7 years earlier, there was the Gulf War.
[00:07:05] Jeffrey: I was 16 when that happened. Un unexplainable to me. I was fascinated and completely attached to that war. I would skip school to watch it on cnn and of course was like famously the first war to be broadcast. 24 hours, uh, seven days a week. Um, and I would watch it and when I couldn’t watch it, I would, you know, tape it on, set the VCR to tape it, and then I watch it later.
[00:07:26] Jeffrey: And I wasn’t at all into. It wasn’t like a war fetish, it was like, oh my God, we’re the stuff that we normally do that we can’t see, we can see. It was just fascinating. And it’ll be a theme of my career, you know, like just like light in the dark corners. Like, oh, we can go over here and see what’s over here.
[00:07:43] Jeffrey: And you could see this war and I mean, uh, highly sanitized version of the war, but you could see the war. Um, and I had been completely obsessed with it and then forgot about it. And this magazine was basically, it had a feature that was kind of telling the story of 1991 to present, and it was the [00:08:00] story of these economic sanctions that we had placed on Iraq with international support.
[00:08:04] Jeffrey: And the, the way it basically went down is in the Gulf War, we very deliberately destroyed all of Iraq’s critical infrastructure with bombs, or most of it. With the idea that when the war was over, we would put economic sanctions on Iraq and Saddam Hussein would have to, uh, you know, kind of abide by those sanctions in order for us to allow him to import things, to fix water treatment plants, uh, phone exchanges, power plants, all that stuff.
[00:08:33] Jeffrey: Um, and turned out sayings pretty stubborn. And, uh, the US is pretty stubborn. And so it just became this like, Like Cold War. Not Cold War. Cold War, but it wasn’t a hot war. Right. And people were still suffering. They, people were, I mean, what I was reading about in the, in Covert Action Quarterly was a Harvard study group that went to Iraq.
[00:08:54] Jeffrey: And, uh, and they had gone because there were all of these reports coming out of the UN that [00:09:00] especially children and young and old people were suffering from the fact that there were these decrepit, um, totally out of date water treatment facilities held together with like duct tape and wire and, um, and that that meant there was a lot of dirty water going through the system and that meant that people were drinking it.
[00:09:17] Jeffrey: And when you drinking, Bad water and you’re a kid or you’re elderly, it can really, really do damage. It can kill you. And there was a UNICEF report that came out that said 5,000 children under the age of five were dying every month that would not have otherwise been dying based on mortality statistics.
[00:09:34] Jeffrey: And that this was entirely due to the fact that Iraq’s water system was what it was on the hospital system was what it was. So like you couldn’t, I had to bring in like medical journals for doctors because, because of the sanctions they couldn’t get mailed in. Um, so it was like a really serious thing.
[00:09:49] Jeffrey: And so I’m reading this, I’m like, my God, I totally forgot about this place. And as it turns out, we’ve been doing far worse to it. In the last seven years than we did in the war itself. And, [00:10:00] um, and I learned in that magazine about an organization that was like sending delegations of activists to Iraq with bags of medicine and other things that aren’t allowed in, and doing it as an act of civil disobedience, which they could then use when they get back home as sort of a news hook and start and talk to people about the effects of the sanctions.
[00:10:20] Jeffrey: So this movement was like, it grew out of nothing. And it was mostly, um, this one organization outta Chicago that was sending activists there. And then those activists were coming home and kind of doing some lobbying, but also, you know, talking to other activists groups or whatever, trying to make it an issue, which was really hard.
[00:10:38] Jeffrey: And, uh, and so I saw the name of this organization that they, that they were in Chicago, that they sent people to Iraq. And there was this woman, Kathy Kelly, who led the organization. And I just thought, ah, I have friends in Chicago, it’d be cool to drive there and meet this woman. Um, and so I, I emailed her in the early days for me of email and said, I’d love to just meet you and [00:11:00] hear.
[00:11:00] Jeffrey: You know, the work or whatever. I read about it in the, in covert action quarterly and uh, and she invited me out to Chicago. Turns out she runs this thing out of her house, which is, or her second floor of a house that she rents in Chicago. Uh, in the back room of this house was her father who was bedridden and, and barely verbal.
[00:11:21] Jeffrey: And in the midway between the living room and where her father was in the kitchen was, was like a, a bay of like five PCs and people at each one of the PCs doing just kind of clickety, clacking away and. She invited me to sit down in the living room, and we talked for like two hours. And at the end of it, she was like, so do you wanna go to Iraq?
[00:11:42] Jeffrey: And I totally didn’t see that coming. And, but at the same time, I mean, they were just sending activists, not, I don’t mean just, but I mean like, you know, like everyone, anyone can be an activist and go like, as long as you decide you are. And, uh, I decided pretty quickly that I wanted to go. And so in 1998, [00:12:00] I, um, quit my band.
[00:12:01] Jeffrey: We had like one final show scheduled for after my trip to Iraq, but I, I went to Iraq having only ever been to Jamaica out of the country. Um, and it was the most bizarre, hard left turn I can possibly imagine. And it, and I can trace everything that’s true in my life today and good in my life today. Back to Kathy’s decision to be like, man, you seem like a good guy.
[00:12:28] Jeffrey: You wanna go to Iraq. And, uh, and so the idea was the whole like premise of these trips was like five or six people go, you bring all this stuff that’s banned by sanctions, you do a press conference. We had a letter from the Treasury department saying like, anybody who travels to Iraq, uh, risks a, it was like a million dollars and 12 years in jail.
[00:12:46] Jeffrey: That was like the, the kind of the scare letter. And so we would hold a press conference in the US and say, you know, here’s the letter, here’s what we’ve been, you know, thank you for the clarity of your warning, and we’re going anyway because we believed da da da da. And so we would go and then we’d hold another pro [00:13:00] press conference once we were in Baghdad at a hospital usually.
[00:13:03] Jeffrey: Um, and um, I came home from that trip. It was about two weeks trip. I came home and like, this is all I wanted to do. Like, it’s all I could think about. And so I, I actually ended up moving in to Kathy’s apartment. One other employee of the place was already living there. Her apartment was this amazing, just sort of like grand central station of eccentric characters.
[00:13:24] Jeffrey: Um, and so, I started working, started to help organizing these things. Then pretty soon I was like, I really wanna go back and lead a delegation and maybe I could live there and just welcome delegations. And what ended up happening was like, between that trip in October of 98 and August of 2001, so like one, I mean just days actually before the nine 11 attacks, I made like 10 or 11 trips, um, to Iraq, always through Iman Jordan.
[00:13:53] Jeffrey: In fact, in, I’ve probably said this in the podcast, but this impossible to explain how this ended up being true. [00:14:00] Um, but I, I came through Chicago O’Hare having. Ben to Iraq in August of 2001, carrying a duffle bag of Iraqi money and fireworks. And they were like, welcome back.
[00:14:17] Christina: Fun. Hope you had a good time.
[00:14:19] Jeffrey: I mean, like a duffle bag full of bound Iraqi money because the, the like economy was so shattered that I could trade a hundred dollars for a backpack full of bills, you know? Um, so yeah. I always tell people that like, you know how different it was before, like yeah, we didn’t have to date cover our shoes and all that shit, but like,
[00:14:39] Christina: But no, but, but it was really that different. No, that’s so interesting. Well, no, but, so this is amazing. So basically radio against the machine was at one of your, you know, concerts, screamed
[00:14:49] Jeffrey: tour as when I found that
[00:14:50] Christina: Yeah. Screamed out. Then like you, you see this magazine, you’re like, I wanna do that. You reach out, you wound up meeting somebody involved in this organization and it changes your whole life.[00:15:00]
[00:15:00] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I mean, so, and there’s a direct line to journalism. So like, I did that, I did that work for quite a while, but at the end of that organization’s work, at least when I was there, we started actually being able to, like, I took a journalist from Rolling Stone to Iraq, right? Like his piece ended up getting spiked from Rolling Stone and published in Mother Jones for some reason.
[00:15:20] Jeffrey: But like, anyway, this guy, Chuck Sud, who had also covered the, the Warren Yugoslavia in like the worst, most awful way. Um, I, so I took a journalist, I took editors, I took like an AP journalist, I took congress, congressional staffers, right? Like, so all of a sudden, like I’m not just rolling around with like other dirty hippies like
[00:15:41] Christina: No, no, no, no. Because at this point now, now you’re the dirty hippie who can like, show them stuff because they, because, because you know, now you can like show like the, even the Rolling Stone guy by 1998, you know, that’s, he, he’s in a suit. He’s getting paid real well, you know, got paid a nice KFI and got another nice p fee from, from, uh, from [00:16:00] Mother Jones, right?
[00:16:00] Christina: Like, you know, you, you’re take, you’re, you’re taking like, you know, these like high on the hog kind of people to show them this is what’s actually happening on the ground because you wanna help promote, like your mission of the organization, of, of, hey, this is what the sanctions have, have done. This is what the impact of, of what’s happening here is.
[00:16:17] Christina: And, and, um, and then they’re like, well, this is great that I have, uh, an American and maybe I won’t get shot now, or, or, or whatever, you know? Um, because I, because I don’t speak Farsi and I’m not gonna like, like, know where to get started on anything.
[00:16:33] Jeffrey: Yeah. No Arabic, nobody spoke Arabic like I spoke enough to order my food. The thing, and the thing is, I probably would’ve learned much more Arabic, but because um, Americans were not coming to Iraq cuz it was illegal. Um, everyone wanted to practice their English, you know? And that was cool cuz.
[00:16:53] Jeffrey: Traditionally terrible at learning languages. So it was like kind of nice actually to have that going on. But, but yeah, I [00:17:00] mean, it’s like, um, and, and the process of taking journalists started to change me because I really believe in and believed in our mission as an activist organization doing these fact-finding mis missions.
[00:17:13] Jeffrey: But what I often found with people who came along is that they came along with the story they were gonna find already in their mind.
[00:17:20] Christina: Of course.
[00:17:21] Jeffrey: And of course, you could outline what the story was, but you don’t actually know. And when you, when you come with the story in mind, you’re rigid and you’re not open, you’re not porous for new information.
[00:17:33] Christina: no. In, if anything, like you’re, you’re looking for anything that fits in with that pattern,
[00:17:36] Jeffrey: Yes. Yeah, totally. And like one of the things that started, there were two journalists that I went with that that impacted the rest of my life. So the first was Chuck Sud, who was this totally. Hard Scrabble. I mean, this guy in doing his work in Yugoslavia, in rushing to a story, had run over and killed a kid with his [00:18:00] motorcycle.
[00:18:00] Jeffrey: I mean, he just, in addition to having seen some of the worst things in the world, he, he was dealing with this shit, right, and he was, He was hard. I mean, it was like, he was awesome. He was funny. He’s the most brilliant person I’ve ever met. But he, what, what he did that was so helpful is, you know, as an activist organization basically saying, Hey, this, these sanctions are killing the vulnerable.
[00:18:23] Jeffrey: The, the thing that those, um, delegations would typically do is go from hospital to hospital to hospital. But the problem is if you haven’t really thought through how you’re going to be in those places, then you could do a lot of damage. And so people, I, I had to pull people out of hospital rooms because they would go in with the doctor and there’d be a woman in her child.
[00:18:43] Jeffrey: And her child was like emaciated. It was like dying as it looked awful. Right. And, and this is way before I was a parent, so it would’ve hit a whole different way had I been a parent. But like the doctor. Is telling you all sorts of things in English about this kid and maybe about this mom. In most cases, [00:19:00] they did not speak English and so they’re watching this doctor say all kinds of words to us and, and some people are starting to cry and shaking their head and all that stuff and it’s like, Hey, this woman doesn’t know what’s going on.
[00:19:13] Jeffrey: Like for all we know, this doctor has been a shit doctor and has not said anything about prognosis or anything like that because he doesn’t, maybe he just never developed a language for having that kind of relationship with a patient. You never know. Or maybe he’s amazing, but like let’s just assume that she is under inform, like anybody sitting in a hospital ever, right?
[00:19:31] Jeffrey: You cannot start crying and shaking your head because it is going to cause a response in her. It might be. And it might be fear and it might be sadness, it might be all kinds of things that we don’t even have the right to try to understand, cuz we’re not her. We’re not there. And, and so I went from that kind of thing where I would kind of pull people out to like then training people about
[00:19:54] Christina: So, so, so you would see people, so, so people would actually cry like in the room, like they would.
[00:19:58] Jeffrey: and shake their head. [00:20:00] That’s the part that was actually, they would look at the, the mother and just make a contact. Well-meaning, of course, but intentions as we know are not magic. Especially when there’s a language barrier in a and in a, in a fascist state where you don’t trust anything anyhow. Right.
[00:20:15] Jeffrey: Like, um, and so eventually I, I just, I really wanted to just stop going to so many hospitals cause it just felt like we know this story and I don’t know that we do, I don’t think we do more good than bad when we go, you
[00:20:28] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was gonna say, um, at, at, at a certain point, once you started bringing people, did you notice that like the stories all stayed the same? Was that
[00:20:37] Jeffrey: Well, yeah. And sometimes the stories
[00:20:39] Christina: but like, was that maybe what encouraged you to, to maybe, um, get into journalism?
[00:20:44] Jeffrey: sort of, I mean, the what, the, what happened that was so disturbing. I mean, actually the first press conference I was part of on my first trip, we were out in front of a hospital and a man and a woman as the, as the like AP cameras were rolling. Um, a man and a woman came out [00:21:00] of the door behind us with a, what looked like.
[00:21:03] Jeffrey: Baby covered in a blanket and they were crying and they were saying something, I don’t know what, and they got into a Jeep and just like sped off and the cameras followed it. And it was like, and, and what we came to realize as we kind of reflected on is that was very possibly not actually a, a, a dead child.
[00:21:21] Jeffrey: Like that was very possibly a, just like a medium manipulation, you know? Um, and that was like my first trip, my first day. And that, that alone, Changed me for a long time was just like trying to think about why it might have been that that happened and how they may have been made to do that. Um, you know, and they may have had no choice whatsoever, and maybe that was an actual child.
[00:21:43] Jeffrey: I mean, it’s not to get super disturbing, but like, it’s like it’s a dictatorship, right? So like, you never know what’s true. You never know what’s true. And, and so anyway, so like, so it’s, it’s like two things acting now that I think about it. On the one hand, you come with a, with a, with a predetermined story, on the other hand, [00:22:00] you don’t know what’s true.
[00:22:02] Jeffrey: And there’s this third part where you’ve gotta figure out a way to see things that might be true so that you can tell a more nuanced story. It’s a fucking mess. But like the thing that Chuck Sutich did for me that was so great is we. Couple days of just hard interviews in hard places, um, the way that a journalist like him would do.
[00:22:22] Jeffrey: And um, and then he said to me one morning we were roommates, he would sing Delia by Johnny Cash in the shower. Um, and one morning he goes, we’re not going to any hospitals today. I was like, okay, what are we doing? He’s like, we’re going to the museum. And he’s like, this place is not just victims. Like this place is a country full of living, breathing hearts, beating people.
[00:22:48] Jeffrey: It’s an incredible culture. It’s not, the story is not just one of victimhood. And we do everybody a disservice by insisting that that’s how you have to receive it. And. That [00:23:00] was huge for me and, uh, just absolutely huge. And the second thing that made a big difference for me in getting into journalism was that I traveled with an editor for a small newspaper in Kansas, and, um, he and I got along so, so well, and he, he kind of became a mentor to me even after that trip and told me like, you should be a journalist.
[00:23:21] Jeffrey: Um, that’s like, that’s how your head works. And, and so, so when the invasion happened, I called him about a weekend and I said, I can’t stand it anymore, Tom. I need to go over there and said, I know I can’t be a journalist. Exactly, but I also know that. I know a lot about what it was and am better situated to see what it is.
[00:23:50] Jeffrey: Um, and to be frank, and maybe this is the story I want to connect with the people I love and care about and, and find out what’s [00:24:00] happened for them since this war began. And this was a very different time in journalism because this editor of a small newspaper said, give me 15 minutes, and then called me back and he said, you got an interpreter.
[00:24:13] Jeffrey: And I had a friend, a Palestinian Masen, uh, Palestinian friend who lived in east Jerusalem. Um, and we had been, we’d already traveled to a Iraq together. And so I’m like, yeah, I can get Ma Hassan. And he is like, all right, get a satellite phone and buy your tickets. Um, I’m sending you to a rock, which was just like such a kindness.
[00:24:34] Jeffrey: Um, I mean, he was thinking of his paper, but it was still a kindness and he, and he knew I, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:41] Christina: budgets for it then, right? Like it, that, that’s, that’s, that’s the biggest difference.
[00:24:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. In 15 minutes he was like, grab an interpreter, get hurt of Baghdad, get yourself to Baghdad. Get a satellite phone, which is not cheap. I mean, you rent them, but like, oh my God, not cheap by the minute.
[00:24:57] Jeffrey: And, uh, and then go find, go [00:25:00] find a hotel, which was, I went to the hotel I had always stayed at, and there had always been this African gray parrot in the, uh, restaurant. And one of the restaurant workers who I’d come to know really well had trained. Um, to make, uh, gun sounds, but also if you made gun sounds to duck, it would duck in all these directions.
[00:25:20] Jeffrey: It was amazing. And so I, I roll out to Baghdad, there’s fucking Americans everywhere. Uh, after all of my time there being one of five Americans in the country at a time, right? Like I was definitely not novel anymore. Um, and in the lobby of the hotel, there were soldiers playing with that bird. And when I went to the desk and talked to a friend there, the prices, the hotel was full.
[00:25:44] Jeffrey: Anyhow, the prices were so high because they were rightly bulking the American military. Cause we didn’t have like a, a proper base yet. So it’s like soldiers are distinct. I mean, this is like unbelievable to think about because it became so dangerous to be a soldier there. But at this point you [00:26:00] just saw ’em walking around, they were like chilling in the restaurants, whatever.
[00:26:04] Jeffrey: In fact, the what caused me to leave. This place. Um, after st. So I did find a hotel, by the way, which was in the lobby. They had actually welded in this, um, Florida ceiling grate with a door in it, and they would lock you into the hotel at the end of each night, um, because there had been looting and other stuff.
[00:26:24] Jeffrey: And so it, it’s just like, and they had covered, they had, they had stacked bricks outside all the windows. Um, it was just, it was a trip. But anyway, um, so why I ended up leaving, cuz I intended to stay for a while, but I left only after two weeks was I went to my favorite restaurant and I was sitting in a booth with Ma Mosen and my friend Sak, who’s Iraqi and across the restaurant were three booths full of American soldiers.
[00:26:54] Jeffrey: Their two Humvees took up like six spots in the restaurant in front, in the, in the parking, [00:27:00] in the parking, uh, lot area and. I had just returned. I was there with an Iraqi and a woman soldier came to our table after staring at us for a while, extended her hand and said, welcome to Iraq. And it’s like there aren’t many better metaphors to our, the way, like where our head was at as a country and as a military.
[00:27:27] Jeffrey: When we got to Iraq, like, who are you saying welcome to me? Who’s been here a million fucking times? This guy who’s lived here his whole life, this woman who’s been here a million times, like, welcome. What the fuck are you talking about? And so I got so distracted by watching her in the soldiers that I ate a kebab of mostly raw chicken in a restaurant that had been having power outages on and off like everybody else for a week.
[00:27:52] Jeffrey: And I got salmon. And, uh, I was shitting blood for a week, maybe more two weeks [00:28:00] I think. And uh, it was best for me to go home.
[00:28:04] Christina: And so and so, so you ended up leaving right before it would’ve been very difficult for you to leave,
[00:28:11] Jeffrey: actually, yeah. Well here’s what’s really wild is, I mean, it’s awful, but in my last days there, maybe in my last day or second to last day, there was a bridge outside my window. I didn’t see this, but it was close to where I was. And at that bridge was a soldier just chilling cuz soldiers were just chilling everywhere.
[00:28:31] Jeffrey: They were just like lounging on their tanks. There weren’t a lot of them in the first place. Like I expected many more. I mean, we saw how that ended up being not a great thing, even though I was opposed to the invasion itself. They’re lounging talking to kids, talking to people, whatever. One of these days, a guy walks up to a soldier on a bridge from behind and shoots him in the back of the head.
[00:28:53] Jeffrey: And from that point on, it was a slow march to just total [00:29:00] resistance, uh, to the American occupation. But like, that was like this, like canary in the coal mine moment. And, and I’ve never been back. And, and I, that that sucks. But it’s going back means, I mean, I said this in a recent episode where it’s like, I don’t feel like I can go back without causing harm to the people I would wanna see.
[00:29:24] Jeffrey: So
[00:29:25] Christina: Which.
[00:29:26] Jeffrey: self-indulgent.
[00:29:27] Christina: Yeah. No, I mean, and, and that’s, that’s really, really hard. Um, okay. That actually, I loved that. I, I loved that entire segment. Um, there’s no good way to now go into a sponsor read, but we are at that time and we need to do a sponsor read. I will say, I think that counted as Mental health corner, but also as like
[00:29:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. Right,
[00:29:45] Christina: one another segment that was actually, I, but, but, but, but I love that whole thing.
[00:29:50] Christina: I love like, I mean, terrible to kind of hear about, you know, that the end of that experience, but to see how you taken a chance and, and how old were you? I guess you [00:30:00] were, how old were you when you, when you first started getting, get involved with this? In 98. How old were you in 98? You were like 21,
[00:30:07] Jeffrey: Uh two. Yeah.
[00:30:09] Christina: So 20, 22, 23.
[00:30:11] Christina: So just amazing. Um, all right. I did just because.
[00:30:17] Jeffrey: Let’s hit it.
[00:30:18] Sponsor: Kolide
[00:30:18] Christina: All right. Our, our, uh, show this week is brought to you by Collide. Our sponsor, collide has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. How? Well, if a device is not compliant, the user can’t log in to your cloud apps until they fix the problem.
[00:30:37] Christina: It’s that simple. So Collide Patch is one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, which is device compliance. And without collide, it struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. You know, like Mac OS just released an update this week and, you know, patch Tuesday for Windows and unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing there to stop them.[00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Christina: Collide is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta. The moment collide agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gives them instructions to fix it. And if they don’t fix the problem within a set time, they’re blocked.
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[00:31:38] Promo Swap: Mental Chillness
[00:31:38] Jeffrey: Boom. All right. We’ve been talking about this podcast a few episodes now, the Mental Chillness podcast. If you are looking for more mental health podcasts, can you have too many? Probably. But if you’re looking for more mental, chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental [00:32:00] illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily processes of working towards mental chillness.
[00:32:07] Jeffrey: Coming from childhood environments that were not open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, Khan and Jules are opening up the conversations of the everyday struggles of dealing with a d h. Depression and anxiety, epilepsy and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs.
[00:32:33] Jeffrey: Personal bs. That’d be a good book. Title.
[00:32:37] Christina: I like it.
[00:32:38] Jeffrey: bs and the way they know how to do it best is with humor, and you could keep up with them on any podcast platform and the YouTube channel. Mental Chillness for Full Video Chillness contents. Thank you. Mental Chillness.
[00:32:53] Christina: Thank you very much.
[00:32:54] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:32:56] Christina: All right. So, um, I was just gonna say, okay, it’s [00:33:00] just to kind of back up a little bit before we kind of got into like the, the Christina and Jeff interview each other thing, and I really like that. I’m, I loved hearing
[00:33:06] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s fun.
[00:33:07] Christina: your journey into this, and, and it’s so interesting. You should write a book.
[00:33:10] Christina: You really should. Um,
[00:33:12] Jeffrey: that and I don’t, I just don’t know how to I’ve tried. Go ahead
[00:33:18] Christina’s book title was waaaay better!
[00:33:18] Christina: well, we, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll, we’ll think on it. You might just need somebody else to help you frame it because, but there is a book in here, like, I know it, there’s a book in here. Like, I know that I have some sort of memoir at some point. Um, and, and I, I know the angles that would be sellable, but those aren’t necessarily the ones I wanna do.
[00:33:31] Christina: And then I, I, I, I don’t know, there was one that would’ve been really good. And then s I waited too long and someone else stole my title and, uh, or close enough to my title. My ti my title was slightly better. And so that sucks, uh, because the title I had was fucking perfect. Um,
[00:33:49] Jeffrey: You can’t say it Kenya, cuz you,
[00:33:50] Christina: Yeah, no, I can, I can because it’s basically been stolen and, and that book is coming out at some point.
[00:33:55] Christina: And, uh, I’m not even gonna read it because I’m so mad. I’m, I’m mad at myself to be clear, because I had [00:34:00] years to sit on this and to pitch this and I didn’t, um, how to be a woman on the internet.
[00:34:05] Jeffrey: Oh, that’s a great title.
[00:34:07] Christina: Right,
[00:34:08] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Wait, what’s the one that’s close?
[00:34:13] Christina: How to be a woman online is coming out. That’s not as good. Uh, I’m gonna be honest. It’s not as
[00:34:18] Jeffrey: Yeah. It needs the hardness of the word
[00:34:21] Christina: it does. It does. But regardless, I can’t now pitch a book called How to Be a Woman on the Internet when a book was sold called How to Be a Woman Online.
[00:34:30] Jeffrey: What about how to be a woman on the worldwide web?
[00:34:32] Christina: Ha But I wanted it to be like, I wanted to be like part memoir, part kind of like essay kind of thing about like, you know, Like, I even knew how I was gonna open it.
[00:34:42] Christina: I just, I, I was afraid to pitch, honestly. That’s the, that’s the real
[00:34:45] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always the, yeah. Afraid to
[00:34:48] Christina: but like, I, I was afraid to like, do, do the, you know, send out stuff and, and to send out like the, the agent, you know, letters and other stuff. I was afraid to pitch. I was afraid of getting turned down. Um, so I didn’t do it.
[00:34:57] Christina: Which sucks because [00:35:00] no offense to, to the how to be woman online thing, but if that’s the title that you chose, when the much better one is right there on the cusp of what you’re doing. I don’t have super high hopes for the book. I know that’s unfair and part of that is sour grapes on my part. And, but, but it is.
[00:35:14] Christina: But, but I said what I said, I’m just
[00:35:17] Jeffrey: Do you think it’s one of those things?
[00:35:19] Christina: Sorry, go
[00:35:19] Jeffrey: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
[00:35:20] Christina: No, I was just gonna say what an objectively better title is right there. I’m gonna immediately be judgemental of you for not picking it as angry as I still am at myself.
[00:35:29] Nintendo and The White Lotus
[00:35:29] Jeffrey: What if it’s, you know, here’s what I wonder. So I was, I’m watching the White Lotus for the first time. Um, and yeah, there’s a point in the like third episode where the kid, uh, loses his switch, his Nintendo switch, and, um, when he comes home and is yelling about it, he yells, I lost my Nintendo. And I thought that’s not what he would’ve said.
[00:35:49] Jeffrey: But then I realized someone probably edited that to be like, no, no, you can’t say Switch. Doesn’t make sense. No one knows what that is. They got a Nintendo where everyone knows Nintendo. Just like when he was playing it, he basically was playing Smash [00:36:00] Brothers based on his like, smash Bros. But like, they were literally just giving occasional sounds from Mario, but not like Mario’s fighting.
[00:36:07] Jeffrey: It was, it’s, it’s funny, it’s funny to me at this point in the history of gaming that there, that those things can happen, right?
[00:36:15] Christina: I agree. I agree. Although it’s, it’s, it’s fu it’s funny cuz I wonder how much of that as like a post-production rights thing, cuz Nintendo is like notoriously, you know, weird about that stuff. Right. And so, um, There might have been like a que because a, you have like the actual paid product placement, which is usually not people saying the, the, the product name.
[00:36:39] Christina: And it’s, it’s funny because people think that, oh, you have to cover up the Apple logo. No you don’t. It’s just they cover it up because they’re not getting paid to show it. That’s typically what happens. You can show the brand logos all you want, as long as you’re not doing something derogatory with the product.
[00:36:52] Christina: The companies don’t care. And even then you could argue it’s like a fair use thing unless it’s the subject of what you’re doing, right. Like, like that it’s, it’s a very clear [00:37:00] thing. But most TV shows and things don’t want to give free publicity. Um, H B O and things like that are different cuz they wanna go for the realism.
[00:37:10] Christina: But you know, apple does do product placement in a number of things and be, even before Apple tv. Like you could, you could see that happening places where you’re like, wow, every single person has an iPhone or an iMac or this or that. And in just this like stunning way that just doesn’t, and you know, that it’s, it’s, it’s promotional consideration.
[00:37:28] Christina: It’s not necessarily a product placement. But I do wonder, like Nintendo being as weird as they are, if they would be a thing where they’re like, okay, we can use the switch because this is enough of a known thing, but if we use the smash music, we have to clear that and Nintendo’s not going to clear it for this show.
[00:37:44] Jeffrey: right, right, right. Yeah. Which is crazy. I guess it wouldn’t have been a big deal at the time, but it is still an H B O show. But yeah, I
[00:37:50] Christina: Well, I mean, it’s white Lotus, I mean, like, let’s listen to the subject matter. That’s not gonna be like a, a, I mean, Nintendo is, they’re, they’re freaks anyway. Like, like, like, like there are people who, like, they [00:38:00] send take down notes to YouTubers who are literally doing nothing but promoting their thing.
[00:38:04] Christina: And they’re like, no, we don’t like game streams. Why?
[00:38:07] Jeffrey: guess it’s kind of in a way, you’ve, you’ve flipped me to the point where I feel like it’s amazing that they let the switch be there at
[00:38:15] Christina: Uh, well that’s kind of how I was feeling when you were talking about it. I, that, that, it’s so funny cuz that was my first thing. I was like, shit, I, I’m, I’m actually impressed that they even like didn’t, because you do see, sometimes they’ll have like fake devices and fake things, but again, that’s usually not because you legally have to, but because they don’t wanna get free publicity to stuff.
[00:38:32] In praise of deep dives
[00:38:32] Christina: Um, but, um, like I, I did this deep dive a few months ago where there’s, there’s this guy Quentin, reviews on YouTube who does like these exhaustive, like multi-hour videos. And he’s done like this mini, mini, mini, mini, mini hour like digression into iCarly and Victorious. And he’s done the first half of, of, of, uh, salmon Kat, which was the, the spinoff of the two [00:39:00] shows with two of the characters.
[00:39:01] Christina: And that the first part is five and a half hours.
[00:39:05] Jeffrey: Wow. Uh, I
[00:39:07] Christina: Um, I mean, I’m talking about like, like, like there’s like an eight hour iCarly video, like there, and there are several of them. Like, and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve watched them and, and so I learned more about like the Nickelodeon like universe of, of, of shows and like the, uh, this particular like universe of like, they, they created this, um, at this pear company to be a stand-in for Apple and they have all these pair devices like the, you know, pear pad and the pone and the, you know, like, uh, like yeah, exactly.
[00:39:38] Christina: But, but they actually like created like it’s all lives in universe. It’s actually kind of funny. I’ve, I’ve gotta be honest, it is sort of clever to, to see that stuff. I’m like, okay, you know what? I don’t, I don’t hate that. That’s actually, if you’re going to like, have a commitment to a bit that, that’s interesting.
[00:39:53] Christina: But, um, But yeah, you know, that that was just a Nickelodeon being like, oh no, we are not giving, you [00:40:00] know, Android or, or, or Apple or, or whoever, Motorola or whatever, Samsung, whatever. We’re not giving them any free publicity. We’ll just have plastic things cuz we’re just gonna be, you know, putting the green screen on this in, in po in post production.
[00:40:13] Christina: Anyway,
[00:40:14] Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah, totally. That’s true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. That’s interesting. I, you know, it’s interesting you said this, this five hour, uh, uh, digression. I was actually, it was, I had a topic kicking around in my mind about like how, what, what things we are able to listen to ad nauseum. Is that what I would say?
[00:40:35] Jeffrey: Like deep dives, like, cuz I, I just got to do it. Something that like, I don’t know anybody could understand this. I listened to, so Rick Rubin. Rick Rubin has this podcast, uh, the name of
[00:40:46] Christina: and you’re talking about music producer Rick Ruben, I’m assuming.
[00:40:48] Jeffrey: Yes. Music producer, Rick Rubin. Um, and it’s not always him. It’s, he does it with Malcolm Gladwell, but I don’t find Malcolm Gladwell a really interesting music interviewer where [00:41:00] obviously Rick Ruben is.
[00:41:01] Jeffrey: Um, and Rick Ruben did this series of interviews. It’s. Four one hour interviews with John fue, the guitars Onaga King guitarist of the Red Hot Chili Peppers an hour with flea bass player, of course, uh, an hour with Anthony Kiis and an Hour with Chad Smith. So each of the members of the Red Hot Chili Peppers a band that like I loved in a, in a Time, but I’m, I can’t, I can’t find the hook in their music now that I found in like Blood Sugar, sex Magic, which is just an incredible record.
[00:41:35] Christina: Incredible record. You know what, it was also a great record though. I’m gonna briefly like, uh, digress you for just a second, California ation.
[00:41:41] Jeffrey: so I have, I agree. And in fact, so here, so here’s actually, it’s walked right in the, what happened to me. So first of all, I could listen to. 4, 5, 6, 7 hours of over in a week of interviews with these guys. In part because I love listening to people talk about music in depth because I [00:42:00] was in bands and I love music, but also because at a time in my life I really loved this band and actually they had a huge impact of about how I, this is kind of interesting, like as like sort of misogynistic as they could be both in footage of the band and in the music.
[00:42:15] Jeffrey: Like I, there was this documentary I watched over and over again that was the making of blood sugar, sex magic back in like 91, 92 with Rick Rubin. And the way that those, especially Anthony Kiedis and Flea, I feel so just don’t hate me for talking about these guys as much as I’m about to. The way that they, the way that they talked about their relationship with one another and the relationship with music was.
[00:42:41] Jeffrey: Highly feminine in, in terms of like what kind of energy I had around me with bands and really connected with me. And like they would, I mean, they loved each other and they would talk about things about the beauty of music. It was actually kinda hard music, but they would talk about the beauty of it or they would just use words that weren’t being [00:43:00] used by the people around me to describe either friendships or music.
[00:43:03] Jeffrey: And I. Altered me forever. Like, it, it helped ease me into a place that I knew I’d be more comfortable anyhow, and, and is where I’m at to this day. Like the way that I exclaim about music is, is still, IM impacted by the way that they exclaimed about music in those days. So I think part of it was, I was, I was looking for that and totally found it.
[00:43:24] Jeffrey: Like it’s, I love listening to these guys talk way more than I love listening to them. Um, but to your point, I wanted just one other, an album to care about after all this, right? And I started going through ’em and I was like, oh, that California Cajun’s pretty good record.
[00:43:39] Christina: It’s a
[00:43:39] Jeffrey: And it’s really the, it’s the follow up to blood sugar, sex magic.
[00:43:43] Jeffrey: Because Dave Navarro was the guitar player in between
[00:43:46] Christina: Yes. Exactly. And, and look, Dave Navarro was great in his bands. He was not great in the chili peppers,
[00:43:51] Jeffrey: I was so sad. I I, I saw the Red Hot Chili Peppers on that tour in Lollapalooza too, and he was a guitar player. I was so bummed cuz that John Fian is a, is [00:44:00] a goddamn prodigy
[00:44:01] Christina: I saw
[00:44:02] Jeffrey: or was at
[00:44:02] Christina: some, I saw, I saw them at some festival during the California kitchen, um, uh, era. And, and I loved, you know, I, I was, I was much younger, but I, I loved, you know, blood, uh, sugar, sex magic and, and, and, you know, great songs. And, and that was like their breakthrough. And, and, and I loved the behind the music.
[00:44:20] Christina: And then, which actually came out, I don’t think it was even tied to Californian cation. I think it was like a year earlier. Weirdly enough, like I don’t think it was actually tied, cuz usually they would time the, the, the behind the musics to like a new album release or, or, or some other sort of moment.
[00:44:34] Christina: Right. Which, which makes sense. Um, at the time I didn’t know that, but now of course I do. Um, but as a kid, I didn’t know that. But then like California Cation, like it came out that summer, summer of 99 and which was a great summer for music. Um, and you know, like, like Peak, peak peak CD sales and that, that album just, I still listened to it like that to me.
[00:44:57] Christina: Like it had great, great [00:45:00] singles and, but, but all the, all, all the songs were like, you know, just like it hits. It’s a really good album.
[00:45:10] Jeffrey: Yeah. Oh, it’s amazing. And, and it’s, it’s, I didn’t realize that the relationship with Rick Rubin just went on and on for them. Um, and Broken Record is the name of the podcast I just
[00:45:20] Christina: Broken record.
[00:45:20] Jeffrey: Um, yeah. And yeah, it’s just like, it’s, yeah. Anyway, so for me, like I can listen to people talk about music forever and just to, to, to say one other amazing episode is his interview with Tyler, the creator after Igor came out.
[00:45:34] Jeffrey: Um, what a, what a
[00:45:36] Christina: Tyler, the creator.
[00:45:37] Jeffrey: what a charming person who just, he has the nicest way of loving his music so much and, uh, and, and unselfconsciously, but also not arrogantly talking about it. And Igor is amazing. That album’s amazing. I got into it through my teenager. Um, anyway, so for you.
[00:45:55] Christina: know this. Cuz I, I like, I like Rick Rubin a lot. Uh, I, you know, I’ve obviously, you know, like [00:46:00] Def Jam is like massively influential in, in everything, but I think just as a producer, like he’s just, he’s incredible. And it’s funny because I probably did learn who he was probably from behind the music.
[00:46:10] Christina: Um, or, or
[00:46:11] Jeffrey: yeah. Sure.
[00:46:12] Christina: types of things like that, you know, like, which I wonder, I guess today it is YouTube, like YouTube documentaries and podcasts. But I do like wonder like how kids today are getting that kind of information. Because on the one hand we have more sources than ever. But on the other hand, you don’t have these like, well produced in the sense that there’s like a team behind them.
[00:46:30] Christina: Like you have individuals who will do documentaries and and stuff on YouTube, which might be very interesting and are good, but it’s not the same as when you have a production crew and paid researchers and people who can
[00:46:43] Jeffrey: Well, it’s usually, yeah,
[00:46:46] Christina: It’s just not the
[00:46:47] Jeffrey: like repurposed. It’s repurposed content and if you’ve got a gift for editing, that’s great, and if not, it’s a drag.
[00:46:53] Christina: Right, right. Like, like, like, like the, um, the, the, the kid who, you know, did like the extensive, like ridiculous, like, [00:47:00] you know, in-depth looks and analyses of like the, the iCarly universe.
[00:47:05] Christina: Like he, you know, is even limited in terms of like, uh, what type of clips he can show because of copyright claims and this and that. And, and he’s done some original research, which is, which is interesting. But again, it’s not the same thing as if, you know, like the E two Hollywood story was still being made or behind the music or like those other types of things where you have a licensing group, like, it, you, it, it’s an office who contacts people and, and gets what deals with rights issues.
[00:47:30] Christina: And, you know, it’s not that expensive, but it’s more expensive than what YouTubers could do. Um, you know, I mean it why I so prefer to watch Dateline. There are a lot of really good true crime, like YouTube things, and some of them are really interesting and the analysis is good, but I would much rather watch Dateline.
[00:47:45] Christina: Why? Because there’s just a level of polish there that’s just better.
[00:47:49] Jeffrey: Yeah. Sure. Yeah.
[00:47:50] Christina: mean? Like, it’s just better. It’s, it’s just better. But, but I, but I’m glad we have podcasts like that. But I do wonder, and this is just my diversion, my, my digression. I know we gotta get into [00:48:00] aptitude and then you gotta go.
[00:48:01] Christina: Um, like how, how kids today are like discovering this sort of historical stuff. I guess it’s YouTube, but I, I feel like, I feel like it’s actually, I, I hate being like, oh, it was better in my day, but I feel like it actually was
[00:48:14] Jeffrey: yeah, for my teenage boys, I mean, they go deep dives in YouTube. I mean, it’s, I mean, and, and they come out of it with good shit. I couldn’t watch those things all the way through the ones that I see them watching, but like, man, they’re, they’re getting good information.
[00:48:29] Christina: No, no, and it’s nothing, not getting it. I just wonder. I’m just like, but, but it’s not as, you know what I mean? But it’s like, it’s not as good. It’s like Wikipedia. It’s
[00:48:36] Jeffrey: and there’s not as,
[00:48:37] Christina: but it’s not the same, it’s not as good as Karta or Encyclopedia Britannica was.
[00:48:42] Jeffrey: Yeah. And even if, uh, every media organization’s fired all it’s fact checkers, you still got a better chance at a pretty factual thing sometimes in the
[00:48:49] Christina: Totally, totally.
[00:48:50] Jeffrey: go wrong, they can go wrong, and then, and without, I mean, you know, I used, this is short, but I used to be an editor at New Reader Magazine and the purpose of that [00:49:00] magazine was really pre-internet in a way.
[00:49:02] Jeffrey: It was like to be a digest of the alternative press. And when I worked there, um, the, the definition of alternative press had sort of expanded. So we might have stuff from like the American prospect or just whatever, like kind of political magazines that are actually doing pretty well. And we would always, if we were gonna, if we were gonna reprint a feature or even if we were gonna excerpt like 500 words from our article, we fact checked it.
[00:49:26] Jeffrey: And the shit that we found in major magazines, you know, in just trying to fact check 500 words of it was chilling. And I feel like if that’s when you’re doing your very best, then if you’re doing your YouTube documentary, man, you just gotta be diligent. And I don’t think anybody really knows to be that diligent because it’s more about the story a little bit.
[00:49:47] Christina: It’s about the story and then, and then it’s also about feeding the algorithm and you have like deadlines and things that you know are, are different. Like, it’s just, it’s, it, it it’s different lovers pulling on you, you know? Not to say that you were lover [00:50:00] free with the old way, because you certainly were, to your point, you have people who are going into Iraq with like a pre-written story or pre-written, not outline in their mind, right?
[00:50:07] Christina: Like, so, so it’s not, it’s not like that goes away, but it’s just, it, the, just the, the lovers are, are different.
[00:50:13] Jeffrey: Yeah,
[00:50:13] Grapptitude
[00:50:13] Christina: All right. Do you want to do, uh, some gratitude? Do you have time?
[00:50:17] Jeffrey: Yeah, let’s do it. Yeah, let’s do it. Um, do you wanna go first? You want me to go first?
[00:50:23] Christina: Um, do you got, do you have one?
[00:50:25] Jeffrey: I happen to, yeah. I’ll be honest with you, it just came to me a minute ago, but, um,
[00:50:30] Christina: I mean, same, to be honest, but yes.
[00:50:33] Jeffrey: I have been using this app since maybe 2000. God, I feel like 2007 and that, that doesn’t seem possible, but Devin think, um, Which is like, you know, it’s basically the kind of thing where you can feed everything into it, your emails, your PDFs, your movies, your whatever, and it, it handles them all very well.
[00:50:56] Jeffrey: It has its own built-in ocr, which works very well. [00:51:00] Um, and it has what, it’s, what it’s been calling an AI for like more than like decades it feels like, uh, approach to, um, being able to sort of organize or, or see across your files. It’s not really AI Exactly. It’s certainly not as we understand it today.
[00:51:15] Jeffrey: But, um, I, when I have a big project and I’m at the point where, where I am now, I’ve had a project for about five years and I’m at the point where I’m writing some sort of summative reports, but also some like public things and, um, I put everything in there. And it is the most incredibly powerful way to locate what I need, and I don’t even have to be terribly thoughtful about how I dump stuff in.
[00:51:40] Jeffrey: Um, and, and it’s what’s nice about it is in the beginning I think it’s true that in the beginning you just had to have your stuff inside of their, um, you know, walled off garden. But, um, ever since they made it so that, It just sim likes to files basically. Um, I think it’s right to say that. Uh, but it, [00:52:00] you know, you can just have a folder and it acts on that folder rather than having to bring it into Devin thing, which means it gets all this kind of weird shit happening to it.
[00:52:08] Jeffrey: Or just like adds these, all these invisible files and all this stuff that just gets confusing 10 years later when you’re trying to make sense of something. Anyway, it is incredible. Um, it’s ability. I’ve fed it as many as 20,000 PDFs in one project and it’s ability to help me find my way through those PDFs was just like, it’s almost like using BB edit over like sublime texts when you have huge data where it’s just like, oh, BB edit is just waiting for me to give it something really big and challenging.
[00:52:37] Jeffrey: Whereas Sublime Text is like, no, that’s not quite what I do. Um, and this is something that like at, at a, in a period of time, this was an alternative to Evernote for me. Um, but it really was so much more than an Evernote. There really isn’t anything else quite. Like it in terms of its, I think what I like about it, it’s probably my age, is it basically looks like an old, like an email interface for a classic email client.
[00:52:59] Jeffrey: Um, [00:53:00] and, and I have always liked that format a lot and, and so yeah, Devon think I, I’m a Devon think pro fella and I just love it
[00:53:10] Christina: Nice.
[00:53:11] Jeffrey: much more to say, but I’m not, I don’t need to say it.
[00:53:13] Christina: no, that’s a great pick. That’s a great pick. So my pick is, um, I, and I’m kind of stealing from things that I have featured on the download. So sorry for people who watch that, but, but
[00:53:24] Jeffrey: watch the download. It’s awesome.
[00:53:26] Christina: Yes, watch the download. It’s great. Uh, if I do say so myself. Um, so this is called Types, and this is a new, and, and actually this is something that Brett would be interested in because parts of this are open, open source.
[00:53:38] Christina: Like they, they, they’ve open sourced the, um, um, uh, like the kind of the, the compiler, kinda the syntax extension. But basically there’re these college, uh, kids, uh, the, these like, uh, computer science, um, um, grads who became acquainted with late tech in college and realized that late tech is fucking terrible.
[00:53:57] Christina: And they’re like, okay, so what if we [00:54:00] fixed late tech? And, um, you’re like, okay, well that would be interesting, but how are you going to do that? And so they, it’s taken them four years, but they’ve written. Basically kind of a, a, a late tech replacement. And they are, they’ve open sourced, um, uh, it, it launched, uh, like a couple weeks ago, um, in, in beta, like in public beta.
[00:54:22] Christina: Uh, so it’s T Y P t, uh, t y pst.app. And, um, they have like a, a, a web app that, that that’s free. And I, I’m presuming this is how they’re gonna try to like, kinda make money with it, um, where you’ll be able to like write in preview at the same time. But they’re making the compiler open source and they’re open sourcing a lot of other stuff.
[00:54:40] Christina: So that, which honestly is the move here because if you want this to actually take off as a format, this is what you do. And the whole way they’ve been thinking about this and the formatting and the styling is basically how to like, make something that will do what latex does, but with a syntax that is not terrible.
[00:54:59] Jeffrey: [00:55:00] Yeah. And this thing where they’ve got the split screen, like multi markdown composer is really cool because the output is magical.
[00:55:09] Christina: Yep. Yep. And, and it’s great cuz like, like, and they have like some, um, some built-in templates. Like they have this one that, that I just kind of created right now as we’re we’re talking where it’s like a, a newsletter sort of thing. And it looks like, you know, obviously this is all done kind of in, in css, other sort of type setting things, but this looks like the sort of thing that would normally be like a word or, or maybe even like a, um, a, a page mill, you know, uh, to, to go back that far, like kind of template.
[00:55:37] Christina: And, and that’s really great. But the thing is, is that you have like different text boxes with, with potential, um, you know, ways that you could, you could do quotes and then you have like, like math. The, the way that math things and, and numbers could be, you know, expressed in certain ways and, and you have like full control over your layout and everything else.
[00:55:55] Christina: And. That’s really great. Like, that’s exactly what you want. But it’s, [00:56:00] it’s similar to markdown in the sense that it’s, it’s readable and it, it, you know, I, I don’t know the whole syntax yet, but, but it certainly seems a lot more accessible than latex, which is incredibly powerful, but is fucking awful. So,
[00:56:15] Jeffrey: awesome.
[00:56:15] Christina: so, so types does is, is my pick.
[00:56:18] Christina: Um, I, I, and I’m also just amazed like that so many people have the idea, they’re like, oh, this is terrible. I wanna create a replacement and then realize that it’s hard and stop.
[00:56:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s hard work. There’s a reason it’s been dominant.
[00:56:29] Christina: and, and, and, and, and these are the, the, these are two like college students who actually did the thing.
[00:56:35] Jeffrey: That’s so cool. What a good story.
[00:56:37] Christina: So, yeah. So that’s it for me. Um, but, uh, this has been a fun, like, weird, like Brett free episode. Um, add, uh, we’ll, we’ll the show notes are gonna be weird, uh, but we should put in the, the podcasts for, uh, uh, Rick Rubin
[00:56:54] Jeffrey: Yes. I will put that stuff in Tyler creator too.
[00:56:57] Christina: Tyler, the creator. And, um, if you have any links to, [00:57:00] um, the, the gentleman, the Mother Jones Rolling Stone guy.
[00:57:03] Christina: Uh,
[00:57:03] Jeffrey: Oh yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah, he’s still alive,
[00:57:07] Christina: Well, no, I
[00:57:07] Jeffrey: Chuck.
[00:57:08] Christina: you know,
[00:57:09] Jeffrey: He’s insane.
[00:57:10] Christina: I, I, I, I asked because you know, like not everybody did, you know, like Michael Kelly, right? Like,
[00:57:15] Jeffrey: no, I know. Totally, totally.
[00:57:18] Christina: like
[00:57:18] Jeffrey: I mean, I, yeah, I hear you loud and clear.
[00:57:21] Christina: gonna, I I think it’s gonna be 20 years next week when Michael Kelly died, which would, you know, like I remember that because like, that was just like, you know. Yeah. Because he was like a journalism kind of like, you know, like big figurehead guy and, yeah.
[00:57:36] Jeffrey: no, I mean this guy, he started doing work for the International Criminal Court and then became a ghost writer for George Soros.
[00:57:46] Christina: Nice. So,
[00:57:47] Jeffrey: his way
[00:57:49] Christina: uh, yeah, he did the International Criminal Court. Now that would be interesting. Place to work for because holy shit, you talk about like the, like the, you talk about like the worst of the worst people, but also people who still deserve to have [00:58:00] like rights. But, but you’re lit, but you’re literally talking about the worst of the worst people.
[00:58:05] Christina: And when you’re talking about the crim, the international criminal court,
[00:58:08] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s a bad crew
[00:58:09] Christina: Yeah, like, like the absolute like, yeah,
[00:58:14] Jeffrey: like George W. Bush and all them. No, didn’t happen that way.
[00:58:19] Christina: No, hey, but Trump did get indicted.
[00:58:21] Jeffrey: I know, I know. I’m, I’m waiting for the perp walk.
[00:58:24] Christina: I know.
[00:58:24] Jeffrey: my wife this morning, I’m like, I don’t even know that I wanna celebrate it, but I kind of feel like I have to celebrate it. Um, so
[00:58:31] Christina: I mean, look, he’s never gonna, he’s never gonna spend a day in jail. It’s just gonna be like when Tom delay, remember when Tom Delay did his, uh, um, mugshot and he was all smiling and whatnot for, for
[00:58:41] Jeffrey: yep.
[00:58:42] Christina: for his Oxycontin or whatever it was.
[00:58:44] Jeffrey: Yeah, I mean, the thing, the thing is, a hundred magazines have already created their own illustration of
[00:58:51] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:58:51] Jeffrey: a prison jumpsuit and just throughout his, his presidency.
[00:58:56] Jeffrey: So it’s like we’re already just like desensitized to even that site if he, [00:59:00] if it were to come.
[00:59:01] Christina: Oh, when it was money laundering? Not, not, not, um, Oxycontin.
[00:59:04] Jeffrey: money laundering.
[00:59:06] Christina: uh, it was Oxycontin was a, was a brush limba, um, back before we, back, before we cared, um, about the opiate crisis. Um, and everybody was just like, oh, it’s not a big deal. You know, it’s just a little, just a little pills. Um,
[00:59:20] Jeffrey: Just a little pills.
[00:59:22] Christina: just, just, just some pills.
[00:59:23] Christina: Okay. All right. Well, um, this has been fun. Um,
[00:59:27] Jeffrey: Yeah, totally.
[00:59:29] Christina: fun episode. Uh, we’ve missed Brett. We will have him back. But, but I always love talking to you and I love hearing more about you and Yeah. You’ve got a book. You, you’ve got a book in there, uh, that I, that I love to read.
[00:59:39] Jeffrey: And what do people do when they have books? They start podcasts.
[00:59:43] Christina: This is true. This is true. Uh, hey, you’ve already got the podcast. You’ve already got that promotional ly.
[00:59:48] Jeffrey: That’s right. That’s right. Nailed it. All right.
[00:59:51] Christina: All right. Get some sleep.
[00:59:53] Jeffrey: get some sleep. We should say it more aggressively. You get some
[00:59:56] Christina: some sleep. Go to
[00:59:57] Jeffrey: Why am I supposed to get sleep? [01:00:00] Get some sleep.
[01:00:02] Outro: The.
From the Post Office to the latest in AI, you don’t need to know anything about oversized VHS boxes to enjoy this amazing episode.
Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired.
Mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. Join Khanh and Jules, people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness.
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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptUnchanging Institutions
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Jeff: Hello, this is the Overtired podcast. I am your host, Jeff Severs. Gunzel. I’m one of three hosts. Here comes another Christina Warren
[00:00:11] Christina: Hello.
[00:00:12] Jeff: and Brett Terpstra.
[00:00:13] Brett: Oh, hey,
[00:00:14] Jeff: Oh, hey, I
[00:00:15] Brett: are you thinking about pink elephants
[00:00:17] Jeff: am not thinking about pink elephants. Brett tried to psych me out
[00:00:22] Brett: that is, that is, that is, uh, steel will, that is presence of mind. I appreciate that.
[00:00:27] Jeff: Steel will. That’s, uh, that’s not the first time
[00:00:30] Brett: that’s my porn name.
[00:00:37] Jeff: Um, yeah, I look forward to seeing that a across a very large box that’s like, I feel like, um, porn when I was a kid came on vhs, but it came on vhs, but in, um, really big boxes.
[00:00:51] Brett: Yeah. Why was that?
[00:00:52] Jeff: I don’t know. Because you’re trying to be discreet, I assume, but instead you’re.
[00:00:57] Brett: the one time I ever bought like hard copy [00:01:00] porn in my life, um, I ordered it on D V D and they sent it in this D V D case That was a like, uh, library of Congress exploration of like Mark Twain’s work. That’s what it said on like the dvd V case
[00:01:16] Jeff: a little cover
[00:01:17] Brett: e Even, even the DVD was labeled as such.
[00:01:19] Brett: And then you pop it in and it’s like, it’s just porn.
[00:01:23] Jeff: I mean, that’s just asking
[00:01:25] Brett: one of the, so Ella and I, my girlfriend, we have known each other for like a decade and w she used to come over and hang out when, um, when a deedee was traveling, like a deedee actually, uh, arranged that. Because she knew that Elle and I were so similar in our like, behavior and, and conversation styles.
[00:01:47] Brett: So she was like, this, this is the perfect hangout buddy for my, my husband. Um,
[00:01:53] Jeff: too. Perfect. It turns out.
[00:01:55] Christina: Yeah,
[00:01:56] Brett: out, turned out, turned out really well for two of us. Um, but [00:02:00] uh, but Elle was going through our DVD collection and I had just like slipped in there.
[00:02:05] Jeff: like, Ooh, mark Twain.
[00:02:06] Brett: yeah, she was, I don’t remember if it was actually Mark Flame, but it was Library of Congress something, and she was very impressed that I had that
[00:02:13] Jeff: So cultured.
[00:02:14] Brett: had to admit that’s not what that is.
[00:02:17] Jeff: That is, that is the last work of steel will. Steel Steel. William. Um, wow. All right. There’s that. There’s that. Where the hell do we go from there?
[00:02:30] Brett: one of the things that holds up my relationship together is my willingness to read Instagram memes out loud on the couch to my girlfriend. She loves it. She, she will, she will request, Hey, could you see something funny? And then force me to listen to you, read it out loud. Um, this is, it’s like a staple of our relationship.
[00:02:54] Brett: So, in that vein, I wanted to read you guys something I found today,
[00:02:59] Jeff: Okay.[00:03:00]
[00:03:00] Brett: only Christina, I think will appreciate this.
[00:03:04] Jeff: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:03:05] Brett: He was a boy. She was a girl. I am a sentient octopus. He was a punk. She did ballet. I have eight prehensile legs. He wanted her, she’d never tell. I crept up from the bowels of hell. All of her friends.
[00:03:18] Brett: And those two as well will fall when the seas start to swell. He was a skater boy. She said, see you later. Boy, neither significant to me. I’m a cephalopod, a miniature elder God. And soon all my brethren will be free
[00:03:31] Jeff: What is that?
[00:03:34] Brett: It’s Af Levine, but with octopi.
[00:03:36] Christina: but I was gonna say, I, I, here’s what was so funny, like literally from the minute you said like, like, you know, he was a boy. I was like, oh, okay. It’s an, it’s a skater boy. Um, thing. Like, I was like, I was like, I don’t know anything else about what this is, but I know that this is an Avril reference.
[00:03:49] Christina: Like, instantly like, like, like, like from, from like the first, from like the first word you said. I was like, yep, I got it. I know this
[00:03:56] Brett: I figured you would.
[00:03:57] Christina: absolutely.
[00:03:58] Brett: I actually, I actually [00:04:00] didn’t recognize it until it got to the, he was a skater boy.
[00:04:02] Christina: Oh really?
[00:04:03] Brett: Yeah, I’m a supple pod, a miniature elder God. Soon all my brethren will be free
[00:04:10] Christina: God. Now the song is gonna be in my head for the rest of the day.
[00:04:14] Brett: I’ve had, I’ve had suck by pig face in my head since this morning, but in the kitchen, when I started singing it, it came out, uh, Sinatra style.
[00:04:26] Jeff: That’s nice. I like when that happens.
[00:04:28] Brett: like it’s, uh, there is no God up in the sky tonight. Uh, no sign of heaven anywhere on sight. Like it just came out like a real, like, I obviously not like that.
[00:04:38] Brett: I’m just telling you the words and you can
[00:04:40] Jeff: Yeah, no, I can see it.
[00:04:41] Brett: sing it for you, but I had a whole thing going. It was really, really, like a lot of swing to it. It was good
[00:04:47] Jeff: Anything that rhymes tonight, you’re definitely in Sinatra territory.
[00:04:53] Brett: So I feel like, I feel like we, we segue into Mental Health Corner as is our tradition. Um, [00:05:00] I I can kick it off if you like.
[00:05:03] Jeff: Kick it off.
[00:05:04] Brett: Fucking, everything’s normal. Like, not, not even, not even my usual, like, I’m so tired of being stable. Uh, like I’m just, I’m, I’m normal today. Like I feel, I feel social. I’m a little bit bummed because we’re going on a trip next week and l is, uh, I have gotten to a point with Covid where I’m like, you know what?
[00:05:28] Brett: I’m good most of the year, but I’m willing to take a risk. For a vacation. Um, Elle is not at that point, and I had to like, cancel plans with my friends because she wants to like isolate before we leave so that she’s not putting her family in danger. And I get it. And our friend of the show, Brian would totally be on board with this, but me, I get very, uh, I get annoyed that I still have to think about it and, and I have to be careful making plans with friends that I will only [00:06:00] see once, maybe twice a year.
[00:06:02] Brett: Um, and I have to like, arrange things with outdoor seating and masking and it annoys me. I’m, I’m just, I’m done. I’m, I have, I have covid fatigue for sure.
[00:06:15] Jeff: I’ve noticed a lot more masks lately in Minneapolis.
[00:06:19] Christina: Yeah. Um, I, I, I’ve, I’ve noticed some, but I’m also, I I’m where you were, uh, Brett, I got to that place like last year
[00:06:26] Brett: Sure. Yeah, we all did. We all did. But I don’t leave the house much, so it hasn’t mattered.
[00:06:31] Christina: no, I know you don’t. I know, but, but what I’m saying is like, I know exactly what you mean because that’s exactly where I was like a year ago. I was just like, I’m done, I’m done.
[00:06:39] Christina: I’m, I’m done. Like, I, I’ve got it. Like I’m, I’ve been, you know, I’ve been okay, like, I’m done. I’m gonna do the right things If people, you know, want me to, to mask up or whatever, I will. But I’m not, I’m not doing the whole like, charade and I’m sorry. It, it has been a charade for, for the most part, you know, about like, oh, I’m not gonna go out.
[00:06:59] Christina: I’m not gonna like [00:07:00] travel. I’m not gonna like, live my life. Like,
[00:07:03] Brett: I mean, that’s not purely performative. That’s just extremely cautious.
[00:07:07] Christina: No, most of it is performative. Some people, I think it is true, but I think it, it’s, it’s gotten to the point that for most people, in my experience, it is completely performative because the, the precautions they’re taking don’t even make any difference. Like, we’re all getting sick anyway.
[00:07:21] Brett: we’re gonna hear from Brian
[00:07:23] Christina: I’m not talking about Brian.
[00:07:24] Christina: Like they, they have a different, they have a different, um, you know, like, like threat model. But, but I, I said most people, I said Mo and, and, you know, but, and, and, and I’m sorry. I think that’s, I think that’s absolutely true. Um, like it’s just, at this point I’m just like, okay, like you do all the right things and the, the masks, if you’re not wearing the right type of mask, it doesn’t even like, it’s like,
[00:07:45] Brett: sure. I feel like at this, if at this point everyone’s down with the K or N 95,
[00:07:51] Jeff: I disagree. I feel like, so I spend a lot of time at doctor’s offices lately, and, uh, it, the one they give out is just the, the [00:08:00] cheap paper mask. And then that seems to be what people are buying also. And not only that, but like,
[00:08:05] Brett: performative.
[00:08:05] Jeff: and not well, yeah. Not only that, but when I’m at the doctor, I’m noticing more and more like nurses, uh, you know, the, as a group nurses have a fair amount of conservatives among them, and I’m, and I’m noticing a lot of noses.
[00:08:19] Jeff: So they’re not only wearing like a mask that really isn’t designed to keep covid from spreading. I’m sure it has some impact, but it, it’s not designed to do that. But, uh, but now there’s noses as well, and, and that’s the part that’s really frustrating and feels kind of, I mean, it feels performative, but I don’t even, it’s not even that that bothers me.
[00:08:38] Jeff: It’s more that how quickly we just threw away the idea of like, this is the kind of mask that works, you know,
[00:08:47] Brett: Well, so here’s, here’s, here’s my pitch for k N 95 masks with the little metal band that goes over your nose. You can talk to someone for five minutes without. [00:09:00] Every 30 seconds having to pull your mask back
[00:09:03] Jeff: Yeah. Right, right, right.
[00:09:04] Brett: I watch like city council meetings where the people yelling at the council have, have shitty masks on, and they’re like, the whole time, it’s just this constant distraction of pulling their mask up over their nose.
[00:09:17] Brett: Just get k n 95 masks. They’re so, they’re, they stay in place. They’re so much better and effective and they actually, you know, provide some protection
[00:09:26] Jeff: Yeah,
[00:09:27] Brett: for you and everyone else. But anyway, so I’m looking, I’m gonna see, uh, Dan Peterson and hopefully Dave Chartier, uh, in Chicago, and then have breakfast with friend of the show, Aaron Dawson.
[00:09:42] Brett: Um, if, if all goes well and, and we come up with plans that are safe for everybody, that is, that’s my, that’s my Saturday and Sunday, and then I’m in Michigan for a week and it’s gonna be a lot like, what was it? Dusty or Sandy, what was your place in Utah [00:10:00] called
[00:10:01] Jeff: Sandy, Utah.
[00:10:03] Brett: Sandy, Utah. It’s go, it’s gonna, it’s, it’s gonna be a little depressing.
[00:10:07] Brett: Uh, we got a Airbnb, um, and there’s not a lot around. I might make a trip to, um, mis, uh, to Ann Arbor. Um, I don’t, do you guys know Marina Appleman?
[00:10:20] Christina: Yes. She’s the best.
[00:10:21] Brett: I haven’t told her I’m coming yet,
[00:10:23] Christina: No, you have to, no. Yeah.
[00:10:24] Brett: she’s in Ann Arbor and, and if I get a chance, I would like to see her. It’ll be fun.
[00:10:29] Christina: She’s fantastic. She’s fantastic. Um, I, I got to meet her in person. Um, she came to when she was in New York once and um, she’s, she’s, she’s so
[00:10:38] Brett: just awesome. She’s
[00:10:39] Christina: the best.
[00:10:41] Brett: Russian. She’ll tell you stories about Sylvia, Russia. It’ll be
[00:10:45] Christina: Also like, because she’s been through it, like she’s just, I lo I love her cuz she’s just like very direct and like funny
[00:10:51] Brett: and so smart.
[00:10:52] Christina: so fucking smart. Like brilliant. She’s, uh, she teaches, she’s a math or economics or something at, um, at math. Math at um,
[00:10:59] Brett: like [00:11:00] applied mathematics, I think,
[00:11:01] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say some, some, it’s better than like, normal math.
[00:11:04] Christina: Yeah. Um, at a, um, at uh, um, Ann Arbor. Um, so yeah,
[00:11:09] Brett: she’ll probably, she’ll probably, uh, I’ll, I’ll tell her. We talked about her. She’ll listen to this and tell me, you have no idea what I actually teach. Do you? And I’ll say it’s over my head. I, I don’t really know.
[00:11:20] Christina: smart. Honestly. Like we, we, we know that it’s really good. We know that it’s a very, very good school and that it’s something like very, very like smart,
[00:11:29] Brett: Very smart. Uh, she taught me how to say late tech. Uh, she, she corrected me back in
[00:11:35] Jeff: I thought it’s LA Tech.
[00:11:37] Brett: so there, as long as you get the sound at the end, as long as you don’t say the X,
[00:11:42] Christina: right? Which I did
[00:11:43] Brett: you can say LA Tech. You can say LA Tech. You can say latex. As long as you don’t say latex.
[00:11:49] Jeff: And why is the ex,
[00:11:52] Brett: Really good question. I bet she would know the answer.
[00:11:54] Christina: it because it came from tech, which was like the, I, the, the, the, I don’t know, ask the fucking Unix [00:12:00] guys is the only thing I can get in with that.
[00:12:02] Jeff: yeah. Yeah. You know what? That would be a great podcast. Ask the fucking Unix
[00:12:07] Christina: I mean,
[00:12:07] Jeff: your host, Jeff Severance. I’m here with Christina Warren. Brett Terpstra.
[00:12:11] Christina: Um, I, I got to meet, um, uh, Ken Thompson, uh, very briefly at a scale a couple weeks ago, and he was lovely. And, um, he’s 80 and he’s still programming and doing cool things. His, the video of his talk actually went up and it got on Hacker News and there were a number of people who were acting just like some of the assholes in the room who were like, they wanted, they were expecting him to talk about Unix and go, and he didn’t.
[00:12:35] Christina: Instead he like shared this very human and like, kind of personal story about this thing that he called it like his 75 year like project, but it’s really been this thing that he’s been actively working on. Since the eighties where he’s like digitized every like, recorded song from like the 19 hundreds to like the, like 19 hundreds to, to 1999 or, or whatever.
[00:12:57] Christina: And, um, uh, it, it’s, he [00:13:00] basically created Napster is, is, is the longest, the short of it, but, but it’s, but it’s actually pretty incredible. Like, like he legally obtained all these songs and stuff and then encoded them and, and like there’s player pianos and it’s not just recorded stuff, but also things like, stuff that beyond like player piano scrolls and other sorts of, um, media.
[00:13:17] Christina: And, um, anyway, it was a really great talk, but when he finished giving this talk, and I, I’d met him the day before and I was just like, kind of fangirling. I was like, thank you for everything you’ve given us, you know, because you know Ken Thompson. And, um, he told me, he was like, I’m nervous about my talk.
[00:13:34] Christina: And I was like, oh, that’s gonna be, And then a guy asked at the end, he was basically like, why did you just waste our time? He didn’t say, why did you waste our time? But that was the undercurrent. He was like, I was expecting you to talk about Go or Unix or this or that. Why did you just talk about this thing?
[00:13:47] Christina: And, and like very much the undercurrent was like, why, why did you just like waste our time in this? And, and I, I was so pissed at the time. I, I wanted to boo the guy and I didn’t because that, you know, that’s, that’s, you don’t do that. [00:14:00] Christina don’t do that. But I, I do regret not having like, at the end, like when, when Ken was almost sort of apologizing now not yelling at like, we love you Ken.
[00:14:08] Christina: Because I think that the vast majority of the audience really enjoyed it. But there were some people on and Hacker News who were like, Well, actually in certain things, they’re like, well, you know, he’s not that I, I don’t understand why everybody, you know, like, like kisses his ass so much. He was, he was factually wrong about some things when he came by the Debbie and Booth.
[00:14:26] Christina: And I’m like, the dude is 80 years old and, and, and, and he, he did, he did, he wasn’t aware of like a raspberry pie shortage because it doesn’t affect him personally. Like, fuck you. Like,
[00:14:36] Jeff: everybody fucking knows about what happens at the Debbie and Booth fucking stays at the Debbie and
[00:14:40] Christina: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:14:41] Brett: It’s the first rule of Debbie in Booth.
[00:14:43] Christina: it, it really is. But no, you know, but you had like some people in Hacker News who were just being total like dicks about some of the stuff, but I thought it was like a really beautiful, um, story. Anyway, that was a tangent that came out of you talking about the, the, we should have the, the ask the Unix guys.
[00:14:58] Brett: really enjoyed that [00:15:00] one.
[00:15:00] Jeff: just be, it could be a
[00:15:01] Brett: that tangent,
[00:15:03] Christina: But, but seriously in the show notes. So we’ll have a link to the, the video from scale because it’s a really great talk and, and I think it’s just like, in its simplicity and like in its humanness, like I actually thought it was, it was really compelling. Um, I also, like, I definitely get the sense that, that Mr.
[00:15:17] Christina: Thompson’s probably on the spectrum of some sort, because he’s dedicated all this time and, and all this work into like digitizing and cataloging all this music. I don’t get the sense that he’s listened to much of the music other than like figuring out how it could be as losslessly encoded as possible.
[00:15:34] Christina: Like that, that like, I, I didn’t real, I didn’t get a sense that it w I got, you know what I mean? Like, I didn’t get a sense that it was anything more of like, I need to complete this thing other than like, I, I, I have great love for the, for the works themselves.
[00:15:46] Brett: Do either of you know what that condition is called where you don’t like music or like music has no effect on you at all? You don’t feel anything you don’t hear.
[00:15:55] Christina: yeah, I’ve heard of that. He, and he doesn’t have that, but I don’t know. Um, I [00:16:00] know
[00:16:00] Brett: a, I have a friend with that Allison Sheridan. She’s not shy about it. Um, she runs the pod feet podcast and like, just music means nothing to her. Like she could hear it and like, if it doesn’t actively annoy her, it just has like no meaning. Uh, there’s no like, like I feel stuff when I listen to music.
[00:16:21] Brett: Like that’s the whole point of music for most people I think cuz like feeling things that would be so weird. Anyway, anyway, sorry Christina, how’s your mental.
[00:16:30] Christina: Um, pretty good. It’s pretty good. Um, it’s been kind of a, it’s a busy work week and it’s gonna continue to kind of be, you know, busy for the next, you know, few days and into next week and stuff. But, um, it’s pretty good. Uh, grant is out of town. He went to go visit his brother, who he has not seen in person in, I don’t know, in probably, probably 15 years.
[00:16:50] Christina: They, well, they, they had a falling out for a while and they haven’t been talking, and then they started talking like a year and change ago for the first time in a really long time. [00:17:00] So he’s in Hawaii with his brother, seems to be going well. So I’ve got like, so I’m like in this interesting thing where I’m like, alone in the house, um, which is kind of nice.
[00:17:11] Christina: I mean, I, I, I, it, it, I’m kind of like, it’s kind of weird, but it’s like I haven’t been alone in, in this space. Like I’ve been alone like other places, but I haven’t been alone here in like
[00:17:21] Brett: you talk to yourself when you’re alone in the house?
[00:17:24] Christina: No.
[00:17:24] Brett: you say things out loud to yourself? Oh,
[00:17:27] Christina: not really, not, not so much sometimes maybe, but like, I not, not, not really, like, I think out loud to myself a lot, but I don’t, you know what I mean?
[00:17:35] Christina: Like, I, I think stuff to myself, I’m like, what the fuck are you doing? But I don’t, I don’t usually verbalize it, but,
[00:17:40] Brett: I like narrate my life when I’m all alone and no
[00:17:43] Christina: oh, I love
[00:17:44] Brett: I just, I just say it all out
[00:17:46] Jeff: Like Ron Howard in the rest of development.
[00:17:48] Christina: Yeah. Oh, I love that.
[00:17:52] Jeff: That’s awesome.
[00:17:53] Brett: which is no longer on Netflix, even though they produced the last two seasons of it,
[00:17:57] Christina: is so fucked up. And, and we talked about it. Yeah, it’s a [00:18:00] stupid rights thing. They, they had like a, a 10 year, um, I guess contract and they didn’t wanna renew it. And the shitty thing is, is you can get season four from iTunes or, or Google Play or whatever, but season five, they never released as a way to buy.
[00:18:13] Christina: And then the season four remix, which actually made season four better, was also not released on home video. So the only way you can get it is if you pirate it, which is fucking stupid. So it’s, it’s so dumb. And, and because Netflix co-produced it, some people are like, oh, it’ll just show up on, on, you know, um, Hulu or whatever, and I’m like, no, Netflix like, paid for the co-production, so it, you know, they’d have to buy them out and, and I doubt Disney cares.
[00:18:38] Christina: So it, it’s just shitty.
[00:18:40] Brett: Yeah,
[00:18:41] Jeff: That sucks.
[00:18:43] Brett: it does.
[00:18:44] Jeff: Um, I, uh, I went and saw the movie Metropolis on Sunday.
[00:18:52] Brett: With,
[00:18:53] Christina: Oh wow.
[00:18:53] Brett: with which, with what? Soundtrack?
[00:18:56] Jeff: It’s the original one and the soundtrack was actually a man on an [00:19:00] organ.
[00:19:00] Brett: Yes.
[00:19:00] Jeff: Um, live but live.
[00:19:02] Brett: Minneapolis. I saw, uh, a live production. Uh, this was back in like, uh, maybe 1999, uh, 98, 99. I saw, uh, they showed, I can’t remember the name of the theater. Something Oak
[00:19:16] Jeff: But yeah, the Oak Street Cinema, it’s long gone. It was a great one.
[00:19:19] Brett: And they showed. They showed it and they had a live organ accompaniment. It was fantastic. It was really fun.
[00:19:25] Jeff: Yeah, that’s what, that’s what happened here. Um, and it was the full, like almost three hour version of Metropolis, uh, such a cool story where they found like a complete version in Argentina, but it was 16 millimeter. And so they have to like, and then they, they were able to restore missing scenes, uh, via description, I think based on the Nazis censorship files, um, from the movie.
[00:19:49] Jeff: I mean, it’s really, but I bring it up just because like, I, I mean, even though I missed movies so much during the pandemic, I have not made great [00:20:00] use of movie theaters since it has essentially ended and. have been so in my head lately that took on a new role with my organization, taking on a new project that it was just wonderful to just lay back in a seat and, and, and let someone tell me or show me a story.
[00:20:20] Jeff: Um, especially that one, I, I’ve always wanted to watch it. I had no idea how fucking good it was. I mean, I heard obviously
[00:20:28] Christina: I mean, yeah,
[00:20:29] Jeff: Yeah. Like you hear about it forever.
[00:20:31] Christina: no, but, but, but to your point, like you got to see like the definitive version because, I’m trying to think cuz I’ve seen, I’ve seen it a couple times, but I think the only time I saw it with like, the live, maybe accompaniment was the one that they, it was like 2002, but then they found like another copy or they found like other stuff after that.
[00:20:51] Christina: And, and I, and I, I saw that one, but I don’t remember if it had the live accompaniment or not. Or, and I think I saw it, but I might not have, I [00:21:00] might just be like misremembering that I might, I might, might think that I saw it and instead I read about it. Um,
[00:21:05] Brett: It works as a silent movie, like you can, you can get in, you can get involved in it without a soundtrack, but it is a different experience to see it where the company meant.
[00:21:17] Jeff: I was amazed at, especially, I don’t know if it’s Briget or Bridget Helm, the, the woman who plays Maria, sort of the star of the movie, she plays two different Marias. One is a robot clone and one is the actual Maria. So she has, and she’s dressed the same in both cases, and so she has to, in a silent film, make it clear when you’re looking at, you know, like the clone Maria or the real Maria and the acting that it took to make that real.
[00:21:45] Jeff: Amazing. She was amazing. And I was surprised to feel so many things in that movie. Generally. I thought it was gonna be sort of an academic, uh, thing to watch that movie. But anyway, it was, it, what it was for [00:22:00] me also though, was just like, it just got out of my head. It was just awesome. It was so nice to be in a story other than one I’m telling myself.
[00:22:08] Jeff: Um, and then just a little piece of trivia came out of it. That’s fucking nuts. Which is that, so this woman, let’s call her Bridget Helm. This was her first movie. 1927. She’s amazing. She did a bunch of more movies before retiring in 1935 because the Nazis had taken over the film ministry and it disgust disgusted her.
[00:22:30] Jeff: Um, but there’s a really crazy little piece to her history, which is she was apparently involved in several traffic accidents. This is on the Wiki Wikipedia page, um, and was even briefly imprisoned, right? Um, and one of her, uh, one of her accidents ended up in a death. And so she was facing charges of manslaughter and there was a certain person in power at the time who noticed she had a case and, and got it dropped.
[00:22:58] Jeff: That person [00:23:00] was her fan, Adolf Hitler. So I was thinking how much it would fuck me up if a, I had killed someone in a car accident. B had the elation, the strange, guilty elation of having that case dropped, and C was recognizing over the course of the next 10 years what it meant that Adolf Hitler was that man.
[00:23:24] Jeff: Cause I mean,
[00:23:25] Brett: that’s a real rollercoaster.
[00:23:27] Jeff: oh my God.
[00:23:28] Christina: Okay. So that, so that right there, that’s like a movie like, like that, that’s, that, that, that’s, that’s like, okay. Cuz uh, did, did either of you see tar?
[00:23:36] Jeff: No,
[00:23:37] Christina: It’s great.
[00:23:38] Jeff: yeah. Here.
[00:23:39] Christina: Kate Blanch had, uh, um, Todd Field and it’s, it’s, you know, fake, but it’s, it’s great. But like that to me almost feels like, Like, you could do a, a, a, a tar like thing, but about her, like, like that would actually be an interesting sort of sort of thing.
[00:23:53] Christina: Like, you know, to do kind of like a character study on, on this, this, this woman who has to deal with that stuff too. And then it’s [00:24:00] also like, okay, this is your first big role. It’s this, this, you know, masterpiece, but then it happens at this, you know, time and then all these other things happen and having to grapple with it.
[00:24:07] Christina: Like, um, what’s her face? The, uh, the, um, the Nazi, um, uh, documentarian, um, uh, who, who did um, um, uh, triumph, the will, um,
[00:24:18] Jeff: Oh,
[00:24:18] Christina: uh, um, um, um, you, you know what I’m, you know exactly who I’m talking about. Um,
[00:24:23] Jeff: it up so we get it
[00:24:24] Christina: uh, Lil Gral. Um,
[00:24:28] Jeff: Got it.
[00:24:28] Christina: knew it would come to me. Um,
[00:24:30] Brett: just gotta give her a sec. She
[00:24:31] Christina: I, I was gonna
[00:24:32] Brett: there.
[00:24:33] Christina: with this stuff. I do. No, but that’s, uh, you know, like I’ve always, there’ve been a lot of talks over the years about like, wanting to make films about her story.
[00:24:43] Christina: And, and that has also, but, but that’s complicated for so many reasons. And, uh, but, but that, that, that’s another character who I’m like, oh, she’s so flawed. And not, not to say that this actress is, cause I, I think it’s totally different. But just to talk about kind of like in that era of, you know, aligning yourself [00:25:00] with these, these people right.
[00:25:02] Christina: With, with someone like Hiller and, and having it tied directly to your art form and being completely, you know, like, um, unretractable from it, which obviously again, like. She as an actress, didn’t like she, she’d quit because she didn’t wanna be doing those things and, and made that stand and still wound up benefiting, uh, from, uh, fur Anyway.
[00:25:21] Christina: But anyway, just has me thinking about, uh, ri install, cuz that’s whole thing is just really interesting. There’s so many interesting stories, I think, uh, about like ethics and, and um, uh, art and, you know, like, I don’t know. It’s just, it’s fascinating to think about.
[00:25:39] Brett: Here’s, here’s the little rabbit hole I just went down. So I, I was using search link to, to build out our show notes, and I have a TMDb, uh, like the movie database, uh, which is like imdb, but actually has an API that you can search. Um, so Search link returned, uh, for Metropolis [00:26:00] return slash movie slash 19.
[00:26:02] Brett: And I was like, oh, do they do these in some kind of,
[00:26:05] Christina: That’s what I
[00:26:05] Brett: uh, chronological order is like, and so what’s number 18? Number 18 is the fifth element. And number two, there’s no number one, number one returns. The, uh, 4 0 4 number two returns. What was it?
[00:26:21] Christina: Ariel. It’s Ariel. I’ve never heard of this. Ariel a, a drama comedy crime from, from K rated k12. So it’s foreign, but it is a, it is available on the Criterion, um, uh, collection, uh, service, which I have.
[00:26:36] Brett: how these, I wonder where these IDs come from, though.
[00:26:39] Christina: Yeah, me too. I’m like, I’m like very interested now. Yeah. Cause it’s on the Criterion Channel.
[00:26:43] Christina: This is a finished.
[00:26:45] Brett: in Paradise. Four doesn’t exist. Five is four rooms that I love. Four rooms, but I don’t see how that comes before Metropolis, uh, in any numbering system.
[00:26:58] Jeff: Someone needs to watch those [00:27:00] films in order, uh,
[00:27:01] Christina: Yeah. Oh, okay. That okay. Okay. Okay. You just invented a podcast, like a
[00:27:06] Jeff: Yeah,
[00:27:06] Christina: podcast that, that would appeal to like letter
[00:27:10] Brett: in order.
[00:27:11] Christina: No, but honestly, I, I, I bet you would have a bunch of people on letterbox that would totally be like down for that
[00:27:17] Jeff: Right, right, right.
[00:27:18] Brett: My favorite. My
[00:27:19] Christina: the T M D B podcast.
[00:27:21] Brett: The only line I remember from four rooms, like I enjoyed the movie, but the only line I remember is Madonna saying hell of a night haunted. And that comes up for me all the time. Anytime something weird happens, I just say hell of a night haunted. And then I have to like pause and remember why I say that, where that came from.
[00:27:41] Brett: Um, which reminds me favorite line from I’m, I’m rewatching BoJack Horseman right now. My favorite line this week was, it’s hard to describe, but I also don’t know it if I see it.
[00:27:57] Jeff: That’s awesome.
[00:27:58] Brett: so Jeff Mental Health [00:28:00] Corner.
[00:28:00] Jeff: That was it.
[00:28:01] Brett: That was it, huh?
[00:28:02] Jeff: Well, cuz the, the whole bit about it takes me outta my head
[00:28:06] Christina: Yeah, it’s good. Which, which I think is beautiful. I’m glad you got to experience that. Um, and now I’m remembering I did not see, I, I have seen the, the rest, the restored version, but I didn’t have any sort of live accompaniment. So it was just like, whatever, whatever, um, version of the score they were allowed to, to.
[00:28:21] Christina: Get, um, on that Wikipedia page, you will find out, unsurprisingly, this, that film with which there are multiple versions and lost things and whatnot, there have been fights over like who was allowed to like, create scores and, and not scores and, um, other stuff. But now it’s, but, but now it’s all in the public domain, so that’s also
[00:28:41] Jeff: As of this year, I think.
[00:28:43] Christina: Yeah. That, that’s, yeah. As, as, as of January, um, first, which, uh, it, it hit the, um, the 95 year mark or whatever. Um,
[00:28:51] Jeff: That’s awesome. Brett is apparently cleaning his gun.
[00:28:54] Brett: So I have, I have this, I have this screwdriver from like, I fix it [00:29:00] and you can like rotate it and it, every time you rotate it and push it in, it brings up a different screw head, uh, or like a different bit. And I broke it and now I can’t push it in or turn it. And now I
[00:29:11] Jeff: that what you’ve been fucking clicking the last three episodes?
[00:29:15] Brett: no.
[00:29:16] Jeff: I’m editing them, I hear this.
[00:29:18] Brett: my fidget, my fidget toy is a, is a lock blade that snaps open and I sit and I fidget and I don’t even realize I’m doing it, but I sit and
[00:29:28] Christina: need to get you a quiet
[00:29:29] Brett: it. Yeah, yeah. Let’s, let’s make that, if any listeners have a good suggestion for a fidget toy that Brett can use while podcasting, but I’ve, I’ve officially, I’ve officially broken this, this driver and in the process, oh, there’s the problem.
[00:29:47] Brett: There’s a bit stuck halfway. Anyway, um, I have, I have, I have lost eight, eight small screwdriver bits in the process. You know, I’m gonna have to like cut it open. It’s gonna be a whole thing.
[00:29:58] Jeff: Stay tuned to the next [00:30:00] episode. Hit us up on Discord.
[00:30:04] Christina: Yeah, exactly. I was gonna say, what do I have? I have my, uh, my, my, my Linus Tech tips, uh, screwdriver came in and, uh, it’s pretty nice. Um, uh, uh, he, he spent a lot of money and a lot of time building a ratcheting screwdriver.
[00:30:18] Brett: to vaults like
[00:30:20] Christina: No, no, no. Like, no, no. Like the YouTuber, um, uh, um, uh, lions Sebastian, who has like a very popular YouTube channel and, and they employ a bunch of people.
[00:30:30] Christina: Um, it’s like a mini empire. He like made his own tools and it’s not bad.
[00:30:35] Brett: I’m gonna, I’m gonna add that to our show notes mostly because I feel like I need to check this out.
[00:30:40] Christina: Mm.
[00:30:41] Brett: I’m a fan of popular YouTubers. People keep, people keep turning me onto new YouTubers and I’m like, I’ve never heard of that. And I get there and they have like 3 million subscribers or more, and I’m like, everyone knows about this but me.
[00:30:56] Brett: It’s not even TikTok. Like I, I’m not surprised when I haven’t heard of someone on [00:31:00] TikTok, cuz I, I don’t go to TikTok, but I spend a lot of time on YouTube and yet I’m constantly surprised by very popular creators I’ve never heard of. And it’s all, it’s the algorithm. Like I find stuff on YouTube because YouTube suggests it to me, and if it doesn’t suggest it, I have no reason to know about it.
[00:31:19] Christina: Exactly.
[00:31:21] Jeff: It’s a very important service in our lives. Um, can I say my post office bit
[00:31:27] Brett: Yes.
[00:31:29] Jeff: or should we do a sponsor?
[00:31:31] Brett: Oh, we should probably do a sponsor.
[00:31:33] Christina: All right. This episode is brought to you by Collide. Our sponsor, collide has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get your entire fleet to 100% compliance. How? Well, if a device isn’t compliant, the user can’t log into your cloud apps until they fix the problem. It’s that simple. And what Collide does is they patch one of the major holes in zero trust architecture, which is device compliance, making sure that everything is [00:32:00] updated and running what it needs to be running and provision the right way.
[00:32:03] Christina: And without collide it struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. Uh, you might know, you know, iOS has had to release a couple of zero day patches. Google just released a big one, uh, for the Pixel seven and I, and I think, uh, the Pixel six as well. And, uh, unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing to stop them.
[00:32:26] Christina: Clyde is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta. The moment that Collides agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gives them instructions to fix it. And if they don’t fix the problem within a set period of time, they’re blocked.
[00:32:44] Christina: They’re blocked. That’s it. They can’t access anything. Collides method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, and most importantly, 100% fleet compliance. So you can visit collide.com/ Overtired to learn more or to [00:33:00] book a demo. That’s K O L I D e.com/ Overtired collide.com/ Overtired.
[00:33:08] Brett: I’m so glad you realized that I made a mistake and, uh, it. Overtired too, and without a space. And you, you nailed it. You saw that and you’re like, that’s not right. I’m gonna, I’m gonna read it the way it should be. That was very good. Um, we also are, uh, talking once again about, uh, another mental health podcast that we love.
[00:33:33] Brett: Uh, mental Chillness. If you’re looking for more mental health podcasts, mental Chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chill.
[00:33:53] Brett: Coming from childhood environments that weren’t open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, [00:34:00] K and jewels are opening up the conversation of everyday struggles of dealing with A D H D, depression and anxiety, epilepsy and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs.
[00:34:18] Brett: And the way they know how to do it best is with humor. You can keep up with them on any podcast platform and YouTube channel. Mental chillness for full video contents. Thanks. Mental chillness. Uh, they’re also talking about us.
[00:34:32] Brett: So sweet deal there.
[00:34:34] Jeff: Say nice things, please,
[00:34:35] Christina: Please.
[00:34:37] Brett: Um, just real quick before we do the post office, I, I just have to, I just have to say I did a, I did a poll on Macedon and usually if I do a poll on Twitter with 13,000 followers, I’ll get maybe 40, 50 responses. Uh, people that actually vote on [00:35:00] Maidan. I have 2000 followers and I did a poll about what programming language I should learn next.
[00:35:05] Brett: And I got a hundred some responses including multiple people that wanted to write in new options and it was very productive and I love Macedon and I’m learning Rust Next. As a result, I kind of already knew that I was already planning, but I just wanted to see like, is go a contender? Uh, should I be learning Scala?
[00:35:28] Brett: No, it’s rust. I’m going with Rust. But anyway, let’s talk post office.
[00:35:34] Jeff: All I have to say about the post office is that, so I sell, uh, I sell shit on eBay. Like, like I. Used to go to auctions for like steel factories and shit, and I, and I sell kind of obscure consumable Sunny Bay. It’s just something I enjoy. Um, and so I go to the post office and I was walking into the post office the other day and I was like, this is one of the only things I can [00:36:00] think of that is a major piece of life that has not changed in my entire. And I mean at all, right? Like most post offices, like even like whatever fucking computer they have at the desk has been there since computers started. And I was trying to think of other things and I’m curious if you have any of those. I mean, cuz really there’s nothing like the post office. And if I were to explain it to you now, if I were to say there’s this thing where if you put a certain sticky thing onto an envelope, a man will come and pick it up.
[00:36:31] Jeff: Or a woman man in my case will come and pick it up and they will make sure that it gets across the country to a person’s house. If I told you that, it would sound like it was 400 years ago.
[00:36:44] Brett: I was gonna say that DMV hasn’t changed much, but it has,
[00:36:48] Jeff: Mm.
[00:36:48] Brett: I, I still, if I go to my DMV here in town, like I still have to fill out a lot of paper. Like it’s not electronic, but simply the [00:37:00] advent of digital cameras has changed the entire DMV experience and license renewal process. So, and I feel like the post office has changed in small ways.
[00:37:09] Brett: Um, like handwriting recognition, for example.
[00:37:13] Jeff: fundamentally, if you wanna send a package, you walk in with your box and hand it to a person who puts it in a bin that is also 400 years old.
[00:37:20] Brett: Yeah. And, and they go with zip codes. And when it gets down to the finer details, it’s up to whoever your postal carrier is to figure out the quirks in, in addressing, I get, I get stuff delivered to me fairly often that has the address wrong, but has my name right. And if this were a purely automated system, that that would’ve been returned to sender because it was the wrong address, but it gets to the right route.
[00:37:48] Brett: And then my postal carrier’s like, oh yeah, Brett, I know Brett. Here, here, here’s your mail.
[00:37:53] Jeff: at the punk planet offices, we used to get, we also got, we got this regular catalog about Chick sexing, which is about,[00:38:00]
[00:38:00] Brett: sorry, what?
[00:38:00] Jeff: chick sexing, which is not what it sounds like. It’s about, it’s about, uh,
[00:38:05] Brett: I, yeah. Birds are bird. Birds are notoriously hard to.
[00:38:09] Jeff: So we would get this, this Chick sexing catalog, a addressed to punk planetarium , which was amazing. Anyway, uh, that, that’s my think, that’s my little thought puzzle. The DMV isn’t a bad answer. I mean, it’s changed, but
[00:38:26] Brett: it has, but it, I mean, still it’s still a toil when it really shouldn’t be like, that. Seems like a process rife for a lot more automation and efficiency.
[00:38:37] Jeff: It seems like getting arrested probably hasn’t changed that much. You know what I mean? Like it, it’s like you still probably do your fingerprints, although it’s probably on a computer, I guess. Remember when this is? I will, I promise not to go down anymore of memory lane after this, but like, remember when running a credit card was like they had that, that thing that was like the size of a
[00:38:57] Brett: the Xerox
[00:38:58] Jeff: and they would put it down [00:39:00] and they would just make a copy of it.
[00:39:02] Brett: I do remember
[00:39:03] Jeff: Okay, I’m done.
[00:39:04] Brett: Christina might not remember, but that was definitely early credit card days for me.
[00:39:08] Jeff: go through any machine at all. They just made a
[00:39:10] Brett: it was, it was barely faster than writing a check.
[00:39:13] Christina: Yeah, I, I, okay, so I do remember this because when I worked my very first job, we, if the machine was down, I would have to pull this massive thing out from underneath the, the counter, pull it back up, and then, you know, and then like pull out some Simpson paper, you know, make an imprint of the card, you know, to, to put it in.
[00:39:32] Christina: And like, that’s what we would do. If, if the bank, if the modem or whatever, you know, was, was on on, on the po o s was down, I would have to like manually, um, make, make a copy, make an imprint of a card. But, um, that was only at that first job. Best Buy. Did not have Best Buy, buy that era already was like, no, we don’t, we’re completely, you know, digitized.
[00:39:52] Christina: Um, if, if the machine is down too bad, um, but, uh, , but, but good old, um, EB games. Um, you know, if [00:40:00] somebody needed to pay with a credit card for their Pokemon cards, um, or, uh, you know, uh, final Fantasy eight or whatever, um, then, uh, then they could, uh, or, or their Dreamcast or whatever. Uh, and, and the system was down.
[00:40:12] Christina: I could still take it in front of their card, but yeah.
[00:40:16] Brett: For some reason, my, my instinct now, which we are not going to indulge, but my instinct is to talk about mimeographs and, and those, those,
[00:40:27] Christina: I’ve only read about.
[00:40:28] Jeff: That smell?
[00:40:29] Brett: Those overhead projectors that teacher used to put, uh, like a clear, like laminate over and then write on with marker and it would project in front of
[00:40:39] Christina: 100%. Uh, transparent, transparent things. Yeah, I, I used to print those. I, I used to, I used to, um, get those so that you could print on them with like my inkjet printer. So that you could, like, then I could like, give presentations like in like sixth grade and be like, oh, look at how fancy I am.
[00:40:53] Christina: Yeah. With like, with like my, my, my, my, my well printed stuff or whatnot. But yeah, you would get, um, what, what were it was [00:41:00] called, um, they were um, cuz there overhead projectors. But, but, but they, but they were, there was like a
[00:41:04] Brett: was a, there was a word for it. There was like, there was like a one word name. Then you knew what was happening. I can’t remember.
[00:41:11] Jeff: you know it, listeners shouted, shouted at the speaker.
[00:41:14] Christina: yeah. I
[00:41:15] Brett: she yell it out right
[00:41:16] Christina: I was gonna say I’m only aware of Mimeographs because they were mentioned in like Judy Bloom books that were like, written in the seventies and I was like, what is this, what is this? Like I have no concept of what this is. It’s like, this sounds like a shittier version of like a Xerox machine and, and that’s what it was.
[00:41:30] Christina: Um, but, but like I, you know, didn’t, didn’t know, um, never had to experience that. But I, I did have the um, uh, you know, the, the overhead projector stuff cuz like, that’s what they would do in like math and shit. Like, you know,
[00:41:43] Brett: Well, so
[00:41:44] Christina: and.
[00:41:45] Brett: there’s this interesting, yeah. Like Xerox has come a long way, uh, to use a brand name, but photocopy has come a long way. However, there have been recent issues where, because in [00:42:00] order, yeah, in order to, to most effectively and accurately copy a document, a black and white document, most modern copiers will actually scan and OCR and then rewrite.
[00:42:17] Brett: So people are running copies and getting. Copies with different words or different numbers, more importantly, different numbers in the output than in the input, which is never a, never a problem back in the days of just photocopy when it was literally photocopying.
[00:42:35] Christina: yeah, no, exactly. This is, this is, um, yeah, this is, uh, I, I, I read about this recently, um, about how like, uh, it’ll randomly alter, you know, numbers or whatever. Um, and some of this stuff, um, it, it’ll like, it, it’s like, um, this flock think apparently goes back like a decade now that I’m looking about it, but, but I, I, we must have seen it at this from the same place, Brett, because I saw it recently too and I was reminded of this and I was like, oh, this is so interesting.
[00:42:59] Christina: Yeah, I did [00:43:00] too. And, and um, and, and, but you’re right cuz it is this weird thing cuz you’re like, okay, well they should have just done like the old method of like the, the, the, you know, um, uh, circular drum or whatever the method is, and just take the, take the, the photograph. And I understand that in most cases it is better to just, you know, like do the OCR and whatnot, but clearly it’s not always the case.
[00:43:22] Christina: There was this other thing, there was this other thing that I read, um, on hacker. Um, a couple months ago, I’ll see if I can find it, but there’s this guy who’s been, he basically, uh, was trying to figure out, I guess if it was worth like a, he was doing some sort of big photography project and he was wanting to do like a big, uh, uh, 35 millimeter, um, scans and the, the types of machines that are made for this sort of thing.
[00:43:45] Christina: Um, unfortunately the, the software that, uh, the, the main maker who made these machines, which were like many tens of thousands of dollars, they stopped support. Mac os passed a certain point, and, and I don’t think they ever, uh, you know, upgraded [00:44:00] to, um, to, to 64 bit or something. And, and so, um, you have to use like an old machine to get it to work.
[00:44:06] Christina: And, and, and the company, even though they were selling the machines until only a few years ago, uh, like refused to basically update anything. Um, and nobody’s making these types of, of scanners. Um, but if you’re doing the sort of precision work that this guy wants to do of like these full frame, like 35 millimeter scans for, from like certain full frame cameras, you need to use these super rare, hard to get and very, very expensive scanners.
[00:44:30] Christina: And, and everybody in Hacker News, because it’s a, you know, hell hole of, of, well actually, you know, Asby and Jack asses. Um, like they were all like, well, why can’t you just use this Epson scanner? This is the, the same d p and whatnot. And the guy was like, no, it’s not. The detail that it collects is not the same.
[00:44:48] Christina: And, and, and it was, it’s interesting that as much as technology has improved in some ways, the old kind of barrel drum ways that like a scanner worked like, you know, 50, 40 years ago is still [00:45:00] superior to what the, the current kind of method would be for, for capturing things, you know, like cheaper. It, it’s, it’s fascinating to think about that.
[00:45:08] Christina: Like it made me think about the, the Xerox thing because I, I get why they do it the way they’re doing it and are doing like the manual, like the, you know, computer aided OCR stuff, but at the same time it’s like you’re not actually getting copies. You think you need, you’ve, you’ve introduced a problem with all this stuff that, that you didn’t have, you know, which is terrifying.
[00:45:28] Jeff: Ah,
[00:45:29] Brett: So speaking of advances in technology, um, I we’re, we should, if we were responsible podcasts or switch to gratitude at this point, but, uh, We, we, uh, do you, do you have some time? Because I feel like we have put off talking about, uh, ai, uh, for a couple weeks now, and,
[00:45:53] Jeff: in fairness, assuming the AI would talk about itself.
[00:45:56] Christina: is true.
[00:45:57] Brett: Uh, but like last week chat, G [00:46:00] p t four was introduced, uh, Google finally came out with their Bard.
[00:46:06] Brett: Uh, uh, Microsoft made their chat, g p t powered Bing Public. And, uh, and then just very, very recently, GitHub announced co-pilot X, um, which, uh, th there’s just so much happening so fast right now. I’m kind of, I’m kind of curious, especially, I feel like Christina’s gonna have a lot to say about this. Um, but, but Christina, where would you, where would you start this convers.
[00:46:34] Christina: Well, I think that, so g p t four and, and then I guess also Google, you know, release or opening the wait list for Bard are, are kind of the two things. I think, um, co-pilot X is, is not a product, so to speak, as it is kinda like a vision of where we’re envisioning, like stuff like what the future of things can be.
[00:46:52] Christina: So some of the stuff will probably make its way into, you know, uh, co-pilot, like, uh, the C l I and, and, uh, the ability to, to [00:47:00] chat with it both for voice and um, with, uh, with text and some other stuff. And some other things are, you know, kinda more experimental in nature. But, um, yeah, I mean, to your point, I think that it, it’s shocking to me like I’ve been, I’ve been kind of beating the drum, um, For the, the, the show, the developer or news show that I, I write and, and do every week since probably, I don’t know, June or July, I really made like the consci conscientious decision to be like, Hey, this, this l l m stuff is becoming really, really big.
[00:47:32] Christina: And we’re starting to see a lot of really interesting things happening with generative AI beyond just, you know, uh, get up co-pilot and, and some of the other things we’d seen first starting with the art stuff and then now chat G P T and, and then now all these add-on things. Um, but to your point, like it, it’s crazy when you think that really how much stuff has December when chat g p T was released.
[00:47:56] Christina: But also if you go back even further, like if you go back to when stable diffusion [00:48:00] when was announced, which is like August and where we are now, it feels like a lifetime ago in, in some respects.
[00:48:07] Brett: have you seen Adobe Firefly?
[00:48:09] Christina: Yeah, I saw that, that that was also announced this week.
[00:48:11] Brett: It kind of fixes everything that was really wonky about like Dolly as far like to actually use it for creative purposes, for, to actually use it for like production purposes. Um, Firefly. Addresses so many of those, uh, AI image generation concerns. Yeah. Like this shit, like people, people may say right now, like, here’s what’s wrong with it, but I’m at the rate things are happening.
[00:48:41] Brett: Everything you’re complaining about right now is gonna be fixed. Give it a year, a year max, four years. And everything you’re talking about being wrong right now is going to be fixed. Like this is, this is here to stay. This is the future. The internet, the, the world of computing [00:49:00] is changing underneath our feet.
[00:49:02] Brett: Uh, people my age, uh, are going to have to make a decision to, uh, to, to get with it and to become, to become fluent in AI prompts or to try to eek out a living in what will soon be old school computing.
[00:49:26] Christina: Yeah, I mean, I think that I, I definitely think that we’re all going to have to become better at like, prompt, um, you know, uh, generation and,
[00:49:34] Brett: There’s like, there’s a whole market out there for like prompt generation courses.
[00:49:39] Christina: Oh, there is, and, and that, and that’s sort of the interesting thing. But I think that to me, like what you mentioned about Firefly, like to me, this is where I think we’re actually going to see really innovative art is when actual artists are using this stuff in their process, right? Like, it’s one thing if you’re giving it a prompt and it makes something that looks okay and you can, with the perfect thing in the, the exact right [00:50:00] response and, and the right tweaking, you can get a really great looking thumbnail, right?
[00:50:04] Christina: But then if you l if you zoom in and you go too close into it, then you’re like, eh, actually this looks a little bit jank. But, but it’s still really impressive. But when you then take something and go, okay, well I have these editing tools and I’m an artist and I’m able to tweak the model even more so to, to give it the right source of, of results that I want.
[00:50:21] Christina: And then me as an artist, I could go in and alter, you know, and, and make cleanup and make changes. That’s where I think you are. I think that’s where we’re going to see really exciting stuff.
[00:50:31] Brett: Firefly can do vector, which means it’s way easier to fix issues. Um,
[00:50:38] Christina: That I didn’t know. I didn’t realize it was Vector. That’s amazing.
[00:50:41] Brett: I took draw things that, like you, you mentioned, draw things as I think a, a gtu a while back, or you brought it up on the show. So I, I was checking out Draw Thingss and I was using the Mac version of it, and in just four prompts, I got a perfect, I [00:51:00] needed a blonde, like 20 something with a red hat screaming for various political purposes.
[00:51:08] Brett: And I was able to get like a perf, like exactly what was in my head in four prompts. Like it took four permutations of the prompt and I got exactly the image, like an image that I, I had no royalties, no, uh, no ownership, and I could just use however I wanted to to talk shit about a, an AI generated human being, but, Yeah.
[00:51:35] Brett: And, and, uh, the video there. So most of the AI video stuff, I believe, um, I don’t think there’s anything out there that for free will generate more than three seconds of video right now, because the potential for deep fakes is just so dangerous. Like, but I, I can make Obama for three [00:52:00] seconds. I can make Barack Obama say anything I want to, literally anything.
[00:52:04] Brett: And, and it’s completely convincing.
[00:52:07] Christina: The voice stuff is even scarier, uh, because the voice models have become really, really good. And, and it’s one of those things that I become a little bit worried. Like I’m not worried about anybody impersonating me for like ill will, right? Like, I don’t, that’s, that’s not so much my problem. My, my issue is more, I’m like, okay, my, there are are thousands of hours of my voice out there that someone could transfer into, and then if they got my parents’ phone number or whatnot like that, that’s a gr This is a great way of, of doing, you know, the email scam where you send, oh, I’m, I’m stuck in a foreign country, you know, wire me this money.
[00:52:38] Christina: Okay, now you can do it using someone’s actual
[00:52:41] Brett: which is way more convincing for sure.
[00:52:44] Christina: more convincing, especially if you then spoof a phone number or something. You know, there’s a lot of stuff you can do. So, That’s, I do worry about that. Um, I, I worry about the deep fake stuff for sure, but I think that there are, I’m, I’m hoping that, [00:53:00] yeah, I mean, it’s one of those things I’m, I’m hesitant to call for more legislation and stuff, just because I think that the government does such a terrible job with tech in general, that even if I think that we need more legislation, I don’t have any faith that the, that congress has any understanding of what they’re talking about at all on any level.
[00:53:16] Christina: Um, but this is one of those areas where we’re gonna have to figure out, uh, things about like deep fakes for things like, you know, pornography and for impersonations really fast because the, the tools are getting so good, like turnkey, you know, just like anybody with like, you know, using a web interface can do the voice stuff.
[00:53:35] Brett: yeah, I made a pretty convincing minute long rant from Elon Musk talking about how he’d been a bot the whole time, and that his, his, uh, his vengeance towards bots on Twitter was actually a very self-defeating, um, tactic that he was using to convince people he wasn’t a bot. Like I wrote out a whole script.
[00:53:57] Brett: I had it read in Elon Musk’s voice, and [00:54:00] honestly, it sounds like Elon Musk giving an interview, um, maybe a little more lucid than he usually seems in interviews. Uh, but yeah, like the technology is there now and, and, and it’s scary, but a also at the same time, holy shit, we can do anything
[00:54:17] Christina: Yeah, it’s exciting too.
[00:54:19] Brett: I think so like when, when the internet first dawned when, when computers first dawned, like there was less trepidation than there is now because we hadn’t seen, seen things go, we hadn’t seen things misused as much previously.
[00:54:35] Brett: We didn’t know how bad things could get. Now we do, like we’ve seen where these technologies can go and like, um, everybody’s first reaction is fear when it comes to this, and rightly so. AI is scary shit. Um, like we have, we have decades of movies about how AI can destroy humanity. , but, but the potential is [00:55:00] also awesome.
[00:55:01] Jeff: Christina, will you kind of tell us about, um, GitHub’s co-pilot?
[00:55:09] Christina: Yeah, so the big thing is, is that so, so G p T four was announced last week, and it’s, it’s out now. Um, in terms of like the, uh, um, if you pay for chat, g p. You get access to it and the API is, there’s a wait list, but I think they’re adding people to it fairly quickly, and the model is significantly better.
[00:55:26] Christina: In some ways, it is a little bit slower in some regards. So when it comes to the, the model that copilot uses, we haven’t moved everything over to, to G P T four yet because, uh, we need to make sure that the, the speed and, and that stuff will be there. But there are some things that we will be using G P T for, um, for, with co-pilot.
[00:55:44] Christina: So co-pilot, uh, if you’re not familiar, is basically our pair programming assistant. That’s why it’s your co-pilot that gives you suggestions, um, and, and, you know, um, can, can generate code for you as, as, as you’re, uh, going along and, and it takes it both from. [00:56:00] Your style, but also the, the code that’s within the different projects that you’re working on.
[00:56:05] Christina: So it’s, the more you use it, uh, the better it gets. And so like, if you have a bunch of different files open all in a project, it’s going to be able to, to use that data to kind of infer, you know, the style that it’s doing and, and what suggestions it’s giving you. Um, but one of the things that you can do with the, the, uh, one of the, the GitHub co-pilot X things is that although you’ve been able to ask questions in comments before, now they’ve actually kind of built in like a, a chatbot type of interface.
[00:56:30] Christina: So it’s like you have a more chat G B T type of experience directly in your I D E, so you’re not having to move to another app. You can do it alongside that and then, you know, insert the code that way if that’s what you wanna do. Um, you can also explain code. We’ll even do things like in different languages.
[00:56:45] Christina: You can say, okay, you know, you can write something in Spanish and we’ll give you, you know, the, the corresponding code. Um, that way. Um, we’re, we’re also working on something. Uh, I see a beautiful cat right now as I’m talking. I love him. Um, or her. Um, and, [00:57:00] uh, we’re, uh, we, we’d previously called this, hey GitHub, and now it’s gonna be, uh, come I think a co-pilot voiced, I think, Don’t quote me on that.
[00:57:08] Christina: Basically where you can, uh, verbally talk to your IDE and generate things that way. But then some of the other exciting things are trying to bring this into other ways. So like, there’s co-pilot for docs, which so far we have working with M D M and Azure’s docs and like the React docs. And so this is a way where it’s basically, it’s been kind of trained on all of that documentation.
[00:57:28] Christina: So you can use that to, to ask questions and search better, which I think is really exciting. And then what, what Bread is gonna be super stoked about, and me as well, I’ve been using it for a couple of days, it’s really cool is there’s a, a copilot c l i, so you can actually use it in your terminal to, you know, say, okay, build me, you know, watermark a video for me using F F M Peg, um, and it will do that for you.
[00:57:54] Christina: Or write me a red X that does these things and it’ll do it for you. And also explain step by step what it’s [00:58:00] doing. Which is, is, I mean, like that’s, that’s gonna be really great for me.
[00:58:06] Brett: I want to use it with ff, F F M, peg and panoc and just something, something that knows all of the, all of the flags and switches and can just tell you, here’s what you need.
[00:58:18] Jeff: Yes. I take it. I’ll take it. I love it.
[00:58:22] Brett: I wish. I wish. So. As, as listeners know, I have never made the switch to VS code. Um, I have been using VS code just because that’s the only place GitHub co-pilot will work. Um, sublime Text. Short. Short,
[00:58:42] Christina: neo them and, and, and Neo.
[00:58:45] Brett: I’m a sublime text guy and while there have been some chat V p t, um, extensions plugins released for sublime texts, they are far behind what VS Code can do.[00:59:00]
[00:59:00] Brett: Um, so I will actually open up a project I’m working in, in sublime and we’ll open it in vs code just to like say, Hey, write me yard comments for this ruby function or, or fix, tell me how to debug this error I’m getting and it’ll, it’ll figure it out. Like it’s amazing for debugging if you have code that’s currently in an R A P L A rep.
[00:59:27] Brett: If it’s currently returning an error, uh, co-pilot can debug that error and tell you how to fix it. It’s so fast. It’s nice.
[00:59:36] Jeff: The thing I wonder is like using, uh, using AI for coding still requires, uh, an ability to do computational thinking. Right. Um, I wonder how far we are from where that is not gonna be necessary at all.
[00:59:51] Christina: We’re, we’re getting closer than, than you would think. Like one of the things they showed off at, in the open AI did a live, a developer live stream for G P T four. And [01:00:00] one of the things they did was that, um, uh, uh, g d b, he took a photo, like he basically drew out like, uh, what a website would look like. He wanted to create like a joke generator.
[01:00:09] Christina: He took a photo of it, he uploaded it, um, and then used his discord bot to kind of ingest that into, to G P T four. And then it made that into code
[01:00:19] Jeff: Wow.
[01:00:20] Christina: and, and, and also did the job search from the functional stuff. So,
[01:00:23] Jeff: geeky.
[01:00:24] Brett: For at least a decade now, we’ve been promised technologies that would allow non coders to code. Um, I mean, even SQL L was originally developed for non coders to be able to work with databases. And I’ll be honest, uh, SQL takes some knowledge.
[01:00:43] Christina: it
[01:00:43] Jeff: Oh my God. When you get, when you get beyond, like, show me you know this from this column,
[01:00:49] Brett: tables. Um,
[01:00:51] Christina: Yeah. Little bobby tables.
[01:00:52] Brett: but we have been promised this for, for over a decade. Uh, this no code kind of approach, and I feel like [01:01:00] this is finally the technology that is going to make it possible for someone to envision a problem. And habit solved for them, um, to be able, you know, obviously you want them to have some power, some, some agency in the process.
[01:01:19] Brett: But yeah, we’re, we’re, we are definitely on the horizon seeing an era where, uh, a six-year-old kid can say, this is what I want to do, this is what I want my program to do. And, and, and have the program that does Exactly. If they know the right question to ask, it’ll do it.
[01:01:38] Christina: Yeah, we’re, we’re getting close. And I mean, the thing is, is that even, I mean, cuz there have been some really decent like, uh, low-code, no-code solutions. There’s a, there’s a company I like a lot called re. But even that one, you really need to understand like databases a little bit. You need to kind of have an understanding of, of what you’re wanting to do.
[01:01:56] Christina: It’s, it’s not really as drag and drop, like, uh, there’s, oh, this is what I wanted to mention. [01:02:00] There was a great article, uh, speaking of retool on their website last week. Um, they published, um, um, uh, history of Visual Basic, and it was just this beautiful, beautiful website, uh, this beautiful blog entry, the A, that was just like a fantastic thing to look at.
[01:02:16] Christina: And B, like, um, like every detail of the bitmap fonts, The design is also like this ex exhaust of like 5,000 plus word, like kind of oral history of, of Visual Basic. And um, I feel like, you know, we never really replaced Visual Basic and, and HyperCard in the web era. Like, for whatever reason we just didn’t do it.
[01:02:36] Christina: And, you know, maybe Flash was maybe the closest thing we came to that, but, but then that really didn’t go far enough and so we’ve lost that. And now I almost feel like we might finally get back to that. But with this addition of, you know, making it even easier in some regards, you know, for people to get like, you know, MVPs and proof of concepts running.
[01:02:57] Christina: Cuz I, I don’t think anybody would argue that like, the, the code you’re [01:03:00] going to do is gonna be like the, the greatest code or like the cleanest or anything, but it’s gonna get you out closer to an idea to go from there. S same, same as the art, right? It’s not, not like the art that, that these prompts generate are the works of art, but it’s giving you a, a starting place where then you can alter that and make and build off of that.
[01:03:19] Brett: in my experience thus far, um, I have taken stuff that I’ve written that I am perfectly confident in, and I have asked G P T to rewrite. Just, just to see what it would spit out if I said, rewrite this function. And it has provided, uh, code that was more in line with, uh, like modern coding practices, uh, that was more efficient, that was shorter, uh, that was more readable.
[01:03:50] Brett: Like it, it is always found a way. And then, and it always gives me like a bullet list of why it did what it did. Um, and yeah, like I, [01:04:00] like at first I was like, yeah, you can use it to write code, but you’re gonna want to check everything it does. It’s already like in, in a month. It’s already getting better to the, to the point where I actually trust it to rewrite functions for me.
[01:04:15] Brett: And there have been times that I’ve had it rewrite a function and that I’ve run, you know, spec tests on it. And it has failed, uh, for, for various reasons that have required some knowledge to figure out what went wrong. Uh, but for the most part, uh, like as far as adhering to modern coding practices, adhering to, uh, like you were saying, like it, it can understand a coding style and match it.
[01:04:44] Brett: Um, that it’s, it’s spectacular in that regard.
[01:04:49] Christina: Yeah, it will do the false hallucination thing. We’ll just kind of maybe create APIs that don’t exist, or it will create, you know, kind of endpoints to different things that that’s not really there. Right. It will, it will go that far and it will kind of trick [01:05:00] you or it will give you an explanation for something that will sound really great and be like, no, that’s not actually true.
[01:05:04] Christina: But, you know, these things are imperfect. Uh, but when they work and they work well, I would say like 90% of the time in a lot of these cases, it feels freaking magical in a way that, I don’t know, I’m excited by it. I know a lot of people are, are freaked out from the, you know, the, uh, ethical implications.
[01:05:22] Christina: And I’m not discounting any of that, but, but I just, I think about like all the cool shit that’s gonna get created because of stuff like this.
[01:05:29] Brett: Did I tell you guys about the support requests I got from Merck because someone had asked chat, G P T how to do something.
[01:05:39] Christina: No.
[01:05:40] Brett: Someone, someone was looking for a way to split a markdown document based on its headers into multiple files, which is a thing. Sure, I have written scripts that do this. Uh, but chat, G b t three told them that marked my application could do [01:06:00] this, and then proceeded to give them the exact menu options to use to accomplish this task.
[01:06:07] Brett: None of which actually exists in the application, but it, it had given them very detailed, very realistic sounding instructions for how to accomplish this with Mark. And they wrote me and they’re like, so can it actually do this? And I was like, no, this is obviously an AI fever dream, uh, for a feature that I never, I never had tort, but it was, it was ridiculously detailed.
[01:06:32] Jeff: Until you check the next day and the feature has been added. it’s total son of Anton situation. Yeah,
[01:06:41] Brett: Yes. Oh, man. All right. Should we, uh, this will, this will come up again. We are not done with ai, but should
[01:06:49] Jeff: AI is not done with us.
[01:06:51] Christina: No, it’s not.
[01:06:52] Brett: should we do some gratitude?
[01:06:53] Christina: Let’s do some gratitude.
[01:06:55] Jeff: I can go first. So I, there’s this app that you, one of you [01:07:00] mentioned last week in talking about another app, and I had actually never heard of it. And it’s Mac updater somehow. I’ve never heard of it though. It’s clearly just, I mean by the design has clearly been around a long time.
[01:07:13] Jeff: Um, is that true?
[01:07:15] Christina: Um, it’s been around, that’s like four years.
[01:07:18] Jeff: Okay. Not that
[01:07:19] Christina: No. And, and version three just came out.
[01:07:21] Jeff: So, um, it, it’s, it’s wonderful For anybody that doesn’t know it, it’s just, it, it, it gives you an, a really nice interface for seeing which of your apps, uh, have updates available. It’s also a really nice way to read the, um, notes on those, uh, on those updates. Really awesome for me. I, I, I always miss those.
[01:07:41] Jeff: Otherwise, and this actually, I’ve noticed I end up going into the, um, developer’s notes before I update because it’s just so easy to do. Um, and they also have like a discover function, which I have not used that much, but it just,
[01:07:59] Brett: it’s [01:08:00] interesting. You can see what, if you wanna find out what apps are currently under frequent and development, the Discover tab is great.
[01:08:07] Jeff: yeah. And what’s free and what costs money and what, what’s popular and what’s not, and what’s a minor, um, update and what’s a major update or what is their minor or it’s, what does that mean actually
[01:08:18] Brett: semantic versioning, like a, a major update is, so you have, uh, 1.0 0.0, right? Uh, the one is major updates, the Z, the first zero is minor updates, and the third zero is patch updates. So if something says major update, it’s going from like 1.0 to 2.0. But if it’s a minor update, it’s going from 1.1 to 1.2, and then a patch update would be like 1.2, 0.1 to 1.2 0.2.
[01:08:46] Jeff: Okay. Got it. The other thing that I noticed when I was going to buy it is that they have this really awesome policy where if you’re a student or a resident of the 40 least wealthy nations, [01:09:00] you get a significant discount. And I was just like, what a, that’s like a cool little thing to add.
[01:09:05] Jeff: Like I, I’ve never seen that before, um, ever. And so anyway, it’s a, just a lovely, simple but complex, uh, app that is elegant and serving me well. So thanks for mentioning it last week. Um, yeah.
[01:09:21] Brett: full disclosure, and Jeff had no idea, but they have sponsored brett Terpstra dot com and they will be sponsoring again in April. Um, I am a huge fan. Like I only take sponsorships from things that I use and love and, uh, and their version 3.0.
[01:09:39] Christina: It’s great.
[01:09:40] Brett: Add things like, uh, completely interaction free pkg like package installation.
[01:09:48] Brett: So right now in version 2.0, if you upgrade an app that requires a package install Microsoft Teams for exa, for example, um, you have to, it’ll, [01:10:00] it’ll say, could not con con complete the upgrade. Uh, you have to interact and it would pop up the package install and you would, you know, tab through, enter your password and everything, and then it would finish and then it would recognize that the updated happened.
[01:10:15] Brett: Version three, uh, does a much better job of making pkg installation. Interaction free, like it can just complete them for you, which is, it’s kind of a big deal because I use a Mac updater every day and like I, I have enough apps that I get an update screen every day and anything it can update automatically.
[01:10:39] Brett: I select quick update apps, hit the button, it’s done. Um, but there’s always one app that needs interaction that I would love to just seamlessly have happen. So I’m excited to start using 3.0
[01:10:54] Jeff: Awesome.
[01:10:55] Christina: Yeah. And, and they’ve never sponsored me unfortunately, but I’ve been a fan of theirs for a [01:11:00] long time. And I will say, uh, that, uh, the, the c l I tool, which is part of like the, the, um, pro and like the business, um, license or whatever, you can get like a, a command line, um, utility that, that’s included in the bundle.
[01:11:12] Christina: That was because I requested, uh, that and, uh,
[01:11:17] Jeff: Yes.
[01:11:18] Brett: a Christina feature. Nice.
[01:11:19] Christina: was a Christina feature. And, and I was like, this is great because in my mind, cuz one of the things I like about. Is that it can pull things from home. Brew can pull things from a lot of different sources. And so if I can use it from the cli I’m like, oh, okay, well this is actually great while I’m doing my brew updates and whatnot, I can just, you know, query Mac updater.
[01:11:37] Christina: Um, instead of having to maybe, you know, go through the, the UI sometimes just easier or if you wanna build a script to do something automated. I just, I was just like, why not? Uh, big fan, big fan of that. So, uh,
[01:11:49] Jeff: Awesome.
[01:11:50] Christina: uh, plus one on that.
[01:11:52] Jeff: Yeah. Love it.
[01:11:53] Brett: All right. Christina, do you know what you’re picking this
[01:11:56] Christina: I do, I do, I’ve got a couple things actually. So, [01:12:00] um, while we’re talking about ai, one of the things, you know, that, that, uh, one of the cooler models that Open AI released, and they released this, um, like six weeks I think maybe before, uh, chat G B T. And so it didn’t get as much attention but it as Whisper, which is their, their speech to text model.
[01:12:16] Christina: And they can basically take and translate, uh, a speech into text and it’s actually.
[01:12:22] Brett: this on our podcast. It’s really good.
[01:12:25] Christina: It’s incredibly good. And what’s amazing about it is that like it’s, I mean, I’m, I’m gonna be honest with you, I’ve paid for, The, you know, human translation services that you pay, like whatever the, the dollar a minute things, um, for, uh, or, or $10 a minute, whatever, whatever the, the fee is for stuff.
[01:12:44] Christina: I’ve done that stuff for years. Then audit audited those things and the s r t files and the, the stuff that whispered gives you is incredibly good. You might have to make a couple of corrections and it has a hard time with some punctuation, but by and large, it [01:13:00] is better than anything I’ve ever seen from kind of like AI generated things.
[01:13:04] Christina: Uh, and because it’s O whisper is actually open source, you can actually locally host it and run it on your own machine. So you could have like a, a, a web hosted version obviously, but you could have like the, you know, assuming you have enough RAM and enough resources, you can run these things on your own machine.
[01:13:19] Christina: The problem is, is that actually, you know, if you don’t wanna have Python set up and, and run through, , um, all of that, uh, uh, stuff, it can be a little bit complicated. And I was working, um, on potentially like an open source project to try to make like a kind of an electron wrapper or something with that.
[01:13:35] Christina: Um, but that, that project has, um, uh, unfortunately kind of, uh, been sidetracked for a little bit. But there are a couple of alternatives, um, that don’t do everything that we were wanting to do with, with a stage whisper, but are getting close. And so the first one I’m gonna mention is called ico, A I K O, and it’s from, uh, Cindra, uh, Sohu, who we’ve talked about his stuff before.
[01:13:59] Christina: He makes, uh, [01:14:00] you know, he open sources and, uh, basically everything he does and, and makes his living that way has a bunch of great apps. Um, like, uh, he did, he has the, the interface for, uh, for Jif Ski, the, the, the gooey for that. And, uh, and, and Lango, which is like, you know, um, kind of like amphetamine. And, um, he, you know, has, um, a bunch of other stuff on his GitHub repo and in the Mac App store.
[01:14:24] Christina: And ICO is AI powered audio transcription. It’s free, it’s in the Mac app. It’ll work on Intel and on Apple Silicone Max. These models do tend to run better on Apple Silicone Max, unless you have a beefy G P U. Um, and uh, he does also have a non app store, uh, version available if for some reason you can’t access it, but that’s not gonna get updated.
[01:14:44] Christina: This will run on iOS and it’ll run on, um, on Mac os. And this is just an easy way to do high quality on device transcription it, and it includes shortcut support. Um, this is really great I think for, for most people’s stuff, but if you need more features, [01:15:00] so it uses the, the whisper, large V2 model, um, um, in, uh, in the medium or small model on iOS, depending on what memory you have available.
[01:15:09] Christina: Um, and so, um, this is a really great, you know, if you’re Mac user, a really, really great way to, um, uh, get transcripts for your podcast or your YouTube files or whatever the case may be. So I’m gonna give that a shout out. But then there’s another app called. Mac Whisper is unfortunately not open sourced, but there is a free version.
[01:15:29] Christina: And then there is a pro version, which I actually paid for, uh, to, to kind of play with. The free version will do a lot of things. This will actually transcribe between a bunch of different languages. So if you’re wanting to, uh, upload something in one language, it’ll transcribe to others. Um, the free version, um, uh, has, uh, some limited, um, model size.
[01:15:49] Christina: Um, but if you want it to have faster and, uh, more accurate model sizes, you can get Mac Whisper Pro. What I really like about Mac [01:16:00] Whisper, the free version even does this, is that it will export what it does for you in s r t or v t t subtitle, export, or a CSV export. So the fact that I can get an s r t file from this and then I can upload that to YouTube is fucking great because that saves me a lot of time and also, Potentially it’s gonna save us like money from, um, you know, the, the service that we’ve been using to have some of my videos transcribed.
[01:16:24] Christina: It’s really, really good. Um, you can take things even directly from like the voice memos app, uh, which is great. And then you can, you know, it’ll also support things from like MP3 or Wave or, you know, M four A or whatever. You can just give it a, a, a YouTube, um, link even. Um, and, and it’ll automatically, um, like you can just enter in the url, uh, from your YouTube video and it’ll automatically start to, to do the transcription.
[01:16:48] Christina: You can also open files or even like create a new recording. You can choose what, what size model. You’re wanting to use. Um, so, uh, both of those, the, the free version of Mac Whisper is really good. The, the pro [01:17:00] version is like 16 pounds, so it’s like 17 US dollars. Um, I, I feel like supporting the dev. Um, so I’ll have both of those linked.
[01:17:07] Christina: But if you’re looking at a way to try to do transcription and you wanna do it locally on your device, because maybe something like, you know, descript, which is great, but like, that either isn’t in your budget or you don’t, um, like Jeff, I think this would be great for you for journalism stuff. Like, you don’t necessarily want stuff on someone else’s server.
[01:17:24] Christina: Um, this, this, this. Right. Um, especially when you’re doing some of the stories you’re working on, like you just don’t want it there. Like, that’s like just it, it could be a legal issue, could be a lot of things. Um, I, I think that, uh, both of these are, are really good options. So ICO and Mac.
[01:17:41] Jeff: Awesome.
[01:17:41] Brett: Nice. And on the, on the ai uh, vein, um, my pick this week is pd, uh, P E T E Y, which is, um, an Apple watch only app. Uh, there’s not even an iOS counterpart for it, but it is [01:18:00] just an interface to Mac G P T. Um, i, I assume three, but maybe eventually chat G p t four. But, uh, basically like it gives me a little complication on my watch that I can hit.
[01:18:15] Brett: And ask it any question and get way better respon like for, you know, how you asked sir question. She says, here’s what I found on the web. And
[01:18:25] Jeff: Yes. Yes.
[01:18:26] Brett: she says, here’s what I found on the web. And, and even, even Google, uh, if you, if you have a, a Google Home, whatever, um, it will often just read you a webpage.
[01:18:37] Brett: And p PD will actually give you usually a correct and detailed answer to just about any question you could possibly ask it. So when you’re in the car, when you’re in the car with your significant other, and one person says something you don’t agree with, and you say, I don’t think that’s true. And they say, oh yeah, look it up.[01:19:00]
[01:19:00] Brett: This is what you turn to, this is, this is how you look it up. And then you say, see, PD says so,
[01:19:06] Christina: That’s
[01:19:07] Jeff: and pretty soon you are dating a
[01:19:09] Brett: or in most cases, well, okay, PD says you’re right.
[01:19:13] Christina: No, what I was gonna say is great timing on this because literally, um, uh, yesterday they, um, release an update that adds, uh, G P T four support, um, as an internet purchase. So it, it’s $5 and then there’s a $3 thing if you wanna get G P T four support. So, which I, I think is very, which I think is very reasonable, especially when you consider like you’re not having to bother with putting in your own, you know, op open AI keys, you know, API keys and whatnot.
[01:19:38] Christina: Um, yeah. This is pretty cool.
[01:19:39] Brett: Yep. All right. That was a good round. Thanks people.
[01:19:44] Jeff: Good round. Good round.
[01:19:46] Brett: Um, so, uh, I guess I feel like we’re at a logical conclusion here.
[01:19:53] Jeff: Yeah. It’s literally where we end every week.
[01:19:57] Brett: Literally where we end.
[01:19:59] Jeff: [01:20:00] Yeah.
[01:20:00] Brett: Get some sleep, guys.
[01:20:01] Jeff: I guess I sleep.
[01:20:03] Christina: get some sleep.
90s alternative bands are on tour, pets are aging gracefully, and parking in Chicago in the winter has its own customs.
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TranscriptChicago Dibs!
[00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.
[00:00:04] Christina: Hello, you are listening to Overtired, a podcast with, uh, me. I’m Christina Warren, and I’m joined by my great friends, Brett Terpstra and Jeff Severns Guntzel, and, um, I’m back. I, I was, I was in Los Angeles and then Sandy, Utah. So, um, I’m, I’m back and I’m glad to be
[00:00:25] Jeffrey: Sandy, Utah.
[00:00:30] Christina: It
[00:00:31] Brett: Who doesn’t love you?
[00:00:33] Christina: I mean, look, it is beautiful. Like even the airport, which is, you know, uh, recently been, been like, basically they raised it and, and, um, it looks great. Like you see the mountains and it’s a beautiful place. But the problem with going to a conference in Sandy is there’s like nothing out there.
[00:00:48] Christina: It’s, it’s just like Baron like,
[00:00:51] Brett: that actually the name of a city? I just thought you meant Sandy, like Utah
[00:00:55] Christina: no. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Sorry, sorry. No, no. To be clear, that, [00:01:00] that that was not an adjective, that was actually the name of, of, of the, of the town I was in. Yeah.
[00:01:07] Brett: Sandy, Utah.
[00:01:08] Jeffrey: San
[00:01:09] Brett: What’s the big mountain bike destination in Utah? There’s like a national
[00:01:14] Jeffrey: not Moab, moabs, where the, that’s where the Jeeps
[00:01:17] Brett: climbing. Climbing. It’s the climbing, the big climbing and, and mountain biking. Destina, Moab. Yeah. I have friends who used to make, uh, regular pilgrimages to Moab. I think that’s where the big swing is that you can like swing across like the desert
[00:01:34] Brett: It’s
[00:01:34] Brett: huge. It’s
[00:01:35] Christina: I mean that Okay. That
[00:01:36] Brett: 80 feet.
[00:01:37] Christina: I mean, that, that does actually sound fun. Um, I mean, look, it’s beautiful. Uh, and, and if I’d been there for like, to go skiing or something, then that, that might maybe would’ve been different. I was there for Dev Day Salt Lake City, uh, which again took place in Sandy. Um, and, uh, I think is because it was close to where some businesses were.
[00:01:55] Christina: But, um, my only other experience with Utah has been in Park [00:02:00] City, uh, for Sundance. And so this was not Sundance, let’s just say that.
[00:02:05] Brett: Sure. Yeah. When I was a Mormon. kidding.
[00:02:11] Jeffrey: It sounds like the, the spoken beginning of a song when I was a Mormon
[00:02:19] Old People are Touring!
[00:02:19] Brett: previous Swiss career as an architect, um, man ministry is touring again to Duran. Duran is touring again. Uh, the Cure is touring again. Skinny Puppy is touring again. Like all
[00:02:33] Brett: the
[00:02:34] Christina: Taylor Swift is touring.
[00:02:36] Jeffrey: Taylor Swift is touring
[00:02:38] Brett: Like Taylor Swift is at least more recent, like skinny puppy touring. That’s kinda like, whoa.
[00:02:44] Brett: Like that is. That is so, like my childhood is, is back. Like I could get tickets for basically the entire lineup of like 1995 alternative music right now.
[00:02:59] Jeffrey: know what’s [00:03:00] still one of the most bizarre collaborations of all time is, uh, Al Jorgenson from Ministry, who is a, he looks so awful right
[00:03:08] Brett: Yeah.
[00:03:08] Brett: He,
[00:03:09] Jeffrey: and, is a notorious sort of like junky, like forever guy, uh, and an asshole. And he had a side project for one album with Ian Mackay from Fugazi, the
[00:03:20] Brett: what was that? Which one was that?
[00:03:21] Jeffrey: uh, I can’t remember the name, but they did it
[00:03:26] Brett: he had so many side projects. Pig face being the most notable one, but I, yeah, I would, I would love to hear what he did with Ian McKay. That would be
[00:03:34] Jeffrey: It’s not that good. It’s not that good. I saw ministry in 1992. It was awesome, but
[00:03:42] Brett: Uh, the Mind is a terrible thing to taste that.
[00:03:46] Jeffrey: Uh, no, it was the, um, the one after that, uh, the, the, what is it? Jesus Hot
[00:03:52] Brett: Jesus built my heart Rod.
[00:03:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I remember when I, it was Lollapalooza, the second Lollapalooza, and it was [00:04:00] ministry and all their like, you know, like blinding flashing lights and dark colors kind of vibe. And then Eddie Vetter in a, I think a sheep’s head, a sheep’s head mask holding, uh, like a long stick with another, some kind of head on it.
[00:04:17] Jeffrey: It’s very strange.
[00:04:18] Brett: I went to, uh, I went, this is, this is very rapidly turned into a, a very organic conversation, but I went to, uh, an art opening at, it’s, it’s a local bar called Ed’s No Name Bar, which is no longer even owned by ed’s, but it’s just, he never felt like naming it. So it literally became no name. Like if you look it up on, on Google, it’ll be the no name
[00:04:45] Jeffrey: Yeah, but putting Eds in there
[00:04:47] Brett: Right. Kind of. Yeah. Kind of. Right. Um, but it became this real like arts hotspot. Like they always have like, uh, some local artists, like all around the second room [00:05:00] and it’s, it’s the crunchy hangout. It’s where all the granola people go to drink and, uh, they have live music, like seems like four, four nights a week.
[00:05:10] Brett: They have live music, um, on a shitty little stage with horrible acoustics. But, um, but I went to an art opening there that was a women and non-binary art show, and it was like ages maybe 15 to 70, like just artists from all walks of life. And there was this weird theme of goat horns. Most of the subjects of the paintings were female, but they had goat horns, which is obviously like a masculine, as far as biology goes.
[00:05:47] Brett: It’s a masculine thing, but it also has like pagan origins. So we had these long conversations about what does it mean that all of these separate artists were drawn toward the idea of goat horns in [00:06:00] their,
[00:06:00] Brett: in
[00:06:00] Jeffrey: wasn’t the official theme. It
[00:06:01] Brett: No, it just happened.
[00:06:03] Brett: It was just
[00:06:03] Jeffrey: like some sort of satanist problem in Winona?
[00:06:06] Brett: Yeah. Satanic panic all over again.
[00:06:08] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm. sounds like it. Sounds like it. Yeah. Well, it’s all the people can tour and I’m still never gonna go to shows. Um,
[00:06:18] Brett: Right.
[00:06:19] Jeffrey: unfortunately.
[00:06:20] Christina: Yeah, I was, I’m trying to, they, they don’t have the, the, the tickets out yet. They’re just like, oh, like, notify me when they’re, when, when we know where we’re going. But, uh, dashboard confessional one of my favorite bands. I mean, it’s really one guy, the band is, is incidental and Counting Crows, genuinely. One of my favorite bands
[00:06:38] Jeffrey: Oh yeah,
[00:06:38] Brett: Excellent. Excellent.
[00:06:39] Christina: touring together.
[00:06:40] Christina: And, uh, and so, and, and they’re like two different generations. So that, that’ll be interesting. Um, but, but I’m a massive, massive, massive county Crows fan
[00:06:49] Brett: it’s, it’s kind of like you, uh, when you look at like, uh, differences in dating ages when you’re 20, dating a 15 year old is out of the question. [00:07:00] Uh, but when you are 70 dating a 65 year old, it doesn’t matter anymore. And I feel like dashboard confessional and counting crows have reached an age
[00:07:09] Christina: Oh, 100%.
[00:07:11] Brett: where they can kind of be considered generational at this point.
[00:07:15] Christina: No, no, I, I totally agree. Not only that though, but like, um, musically, like they’re both kind of like, you know, like songwriter, so songwriter driven, you know, like, like, you know, um, an anthem, you know, like, okay, dashboard confessional, arguably kind of like popularized emo, but like Counting Crows like, was like some like sad white man rock, a little bit Whale Rock, you know, in, in, in, in the, you know, August and everything after and whatnot, which I think is like a perfect album.
[00:07:41] Christina: Uh, no notes on that. Like, that’s just a fucking great album. Um, actually like that, like, uh, recovering the satellites and, um, what’s the, uh, the, the next one, the one, the one with, um, uh, colorblind and Mrs. Potters lullaby. And anyway, those three, al those three albums are like, [00:08:00] awesome. Um, and they’re really, really good live.
[00:08:03] Christina: So,
[00:08:04] Jeffrey: I was, I was not a fan of either of those bands, but my friends who were fans, especially of Counting Crows, have seen them recently and said it was just fantastic.
[00:08:11] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Um, he, he is like, I remember, and this was like 10 years ago, he somehow was like on the cover of like a a r P magazine, and I was like,
[00:08:22] Jeffrey: Great fucking publicist,
[00:08:24] Christina: Totally.
[00:08:26] Jeffrey: I the good news. I got you a cover
[00:08:28] Brett: It’s kind of like counting Crows is kind of like Dave Grohl for me and like the Foo Fighters. Like, I don’t, I don’t care about the music. Uh, but every time I read a really in-depth music review, um, like Dave Grohl grew on me just because of his, like, just being a fucking awesome guy, right? Uh, count Crows grew on me because I would read, uh, music reviews from people that I respected that just talked about how the depth of like the counting [00:09:00] Crows musical discography and, and, and how great the songwriting was.
[00:09:06] Brett: And I’ve heard some songs and I’ve thought, yeah, it’s okay. It’s okay. But, but I have a lot of respect for the Counting Crows just because they, they have impressed people that impressed me.
[00:09:19] Jeffrey: um, just, uh, my, my game today is gonna be bring everything back to Pearl Jam. Um, I remember I was at, I was at Jazz Fest in 1994 in New Orleans, and I was walking past a club where a really big show was happening and he, the singer of Counting Crows was standing in line with, um, Pearl Jam Sweat shorts.
[00:09:37] Christina: Nice.
[00:09:39] Jeffrey: I was like, oh, awesome.
[00:09:40] Jeffrey: Cool. By the way, pale Head, did you say Pale Head, but that’s what it was. Yeah.
[00:09:45] Brett: pig face, but pale head, I
[00:09:46] Jeffrey: Pale Head was Ian mackay Jorgenson. Sorry about that.
[00:09:49] Brett: And with the, with the guitarist pale head.
[00:09:52] Jeffrey: Yeah. No, that’s Buckethead. You’re thinking of
[00:09:53] Brett: Oh, I’m Buckethead,
[00:09:54] Jeffrey: I don’t think Buckethead anything to do with that. Buckethead is a whole nother story. [00:10:00] We’re talking about a man who joined Guns N Roses and still did his special thing of a guitar solo that involved beatboxing, really good robot dancing, incredible nunchuck work, and then back to guitar, but, and all with a bucket on his head.
[00:10:19] Jeffrey: Right. And a, and a mask. Like I could talk about buckethead all fucking day. Um, cuz Wow. But this is pale head anyway. Sorry,
[00:10:28] Brett: pale head. I think I always conflated the two pale pales and buckets.
[00:10:34] Jeffrey: Yeah. Who can blame you? Who can blame?
[00:10:36] Christina: I have no idea what any of this is.
[00:10:38] Jeffrey: God. Buckethead. I’ll send y’all a link and I’ll put it in the show notes, but it’s something to see. I’m telling you. This is a man who is a wizard guitar player. A Wizard Nunchuck Wheeler. A Wizard Beatboxer who only appears in public in a long white trench coat, a K F C bucket on his head, and a white mask, uh, just like a face mask with no [00:11:00] facial features on it.
[00:11:01] Jeffrey: Nobody’s ever, for the most part,
[00:11:03] Christina: so, he’s, so he’s cia basically
[00:11:05] Jeffrey: Yeah, he’s CIA basically. And for, until very recently, he was the guitarist of Guns N Roses. So next to all of that, was fucking Axl Rose. Like, it’s just like the most bizarre. It’s like I had this dream. It was a fucked up dream. This guy had a bucket and Axl was there.
[00:11:19] Christina: and that, that, no, that was real life. Also, a also Guns N Roses are torian again.
[00:11:22] Jeffrey: yes, they are.
[00:11:24] Brett: Are they really?
[00:11:25] Brett: Full original lineup.
[00:11:27] Jeffrey: reg. Mostly not
[00:11:29] Christina: I think not
[00:11:30] Jeffrey: I don’t think Izzy Stradling, well, I noticed Matt Swarms, not the drummer, the second drummer who I never liked, but
[00:11:36] Brett: Dizzy. Dizzy.
[00:11:37] Jeffrey: Izzy straddling Duff.
[00:11:39] Brett: bass. Yeah.
[00:11:41] Jeffrey: Yeah. And some guy Gibby or Gabby, I don’t
[00:11:43] Brett: Izzy. And Dizzy. And
[00:11:44] Jeffrey: Yeah. Truly. It’s just like a comic book anyway.
[00:11:49] Brett: Are they any good? I did not like Chinese Democracy.
[00:11:53] Christina: Well, nothing could be good after like that much buildup, but like
[00:11:57] Brett: After 10
[00:11:58] Jeffrey: And that [00:12:00] voice, that voice was not, that voice was not made to age. Did you see him at Lisa Marie Presley’s funeral?
[00:12:06] Christina: Yeah.
[00:12:07] Jeffrey: He played like, I think November rain on the
[00:12:09] Christina: played November rain on piano.
[00:12:11] Jeffrey: awful. It was like, at least Elvis at the end was still though he looked terrible, had the voice of a fucking angel. And, and to, to somehow put that man in front of Graceland. Wow. And he’s clearly gotten to the point where he’s not self-assessing, you know, he’s like, I’m a fucking rockstar. What?
[00:12:32] Brett: If he ever did, yeah.
[00:12:34] Christina: I, he’s like, I’m gonna do November rain.
[00:12:36] Jeffrey: Yeah. Alone.
[00:12:38] Christina: It’s like o o, okay. Like, that’s a really anthemic, like, beautiful song, but
[00:12:42] Jeffrey: Yes, it is.
[00:12:43] Christina: can, can you do it still? Like,
[00:12:45] Jeffrey: And he sounds like, you know, when you, when you step on a dog toy and then you let your f you let your foot up and it kind of inhales. That’s what his voice sounds like right now.
[00:12:53] Christina: Ugh.
[00:12:54] Brett: Ste. Stephanie Seymour has aged way better than Axl.
[00:12:57] Christina: Well, yeah, totally.
[00:12:58] Jeffrey: a strange.
[00:12:59] Christina: [00:13:00] great music video.
[00:13:01] Brett: It was.
[00:13:01] Jeffrey: man. You kidding me. Loved it. Loved it.
[00:13:04] Brett: And that guitar
[00:13:05] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:13:06] Brett: November Rain?
[00:13:06] Christina: Yep. Which goes on and on, and that was such a long music video, but it was so good. Like M T V would aired, edited versions sometimes, but
[00:13:13] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s right.
[00:13:14] Christina: when you could, when you could watch the whole thing, when they would put that on, like after 10:00 PM or whatever, you could watch the whole thing.
[00:13:20] Brett: Like the, the usual Illusion two version. Weren’t there two versions of November Rain between the user illusions,
[00:13:28] Jeffrey: Oh, I don’t think so.
[00:13:29] Brett: which, there was one song, there was a song
[00:13:32] Jeffrey: There was Civil War. There was Civil War That was really long on one
[00:13:35] Brett: on. No, but there was one that was on both albums with slightly different lyrics.
[00:13:41] Jeffrey: Hmm. I believe you and I, I’m kind of sad that I can’t participate even though I listen to
[00:13:47] Christina: Yeah. I was gonna say, I have no idea, because I really only knew. The stuff that was on M T V and I was really
[00:13:52] Brett: Okay.
[00:13:53] Christina: when you know, they were like at their peak
[00:13:56] Jeffrey: It’s that the thing, the thing , there’s a, a real [00:14:00] demarcation with that band and it’s when Axl started wearing like incredibly tight spandex, short shorts, it’s like, that’s when you, that’s when everything just got a little out of control. But anyway,
[00:14:13] Brett: Um, I’m, I’m looking this up. Disc one, oh, it was don’t cry, I think
[00:14:20] Jeffrey: Don’t you cry?
[00:14:22] Brett: No, wait. Oh, there, wait. The, the, the deluxe release had four discs.
[00:14:30] Jeffrey: That’s but that’s recent. That’s recent though.
[00:14:33] Christina: Yeah. The only band that was doing multiple disks in
[00:14:36] Brett: Yeah. No, it was, it was, it was, don’t cry on, on unusual illusion. Two, there was an alternate lyrics.
[00:14:42] Jeffrey: Okay. Okay.
[00:14:44] Christina: smashing pumpkins is also torn. Again, I will not see them. Because it’s not smashing Pumpkins, it’s Billy Corgan and whatever random people have agreed to continue to tour with him.
[00:14:54] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:14:55] Brett: see a good mashup of Smashing Pumpkins. Unplugged [00:15:00] with Dua Lipa.
[00:15:01] Christina: Oh, that I bet would be amazing.
[00:15:04] Brett: I’ll see if I can find that for the show notes.
[00:15:06] Christina: they did unplugged and they did unplug more than 20 years ago, cuz like he basically retired or said he was gonna retire in, in the band in, in 2000 or whatever. Um, cuz I went to one of the final shows and I remember he did like a VH1 storytellers. Um, that was really good.
[00:15:26] Christina: And, and, and that might be, I think that, I think it was that instead, but they might have had an unplugged, but it might have been the VH1 storytellers that, that they used for the mashup.
[00:15:33] Brett: the, the thing about Smashing Pumpkins is their songwriting in general. Par for the course at the time, but his recording methods like layering 15, 20, 30 guitar tracks on top of each other in creating like, like the, the Ramones, the, the rock and roll ar, the, uh, rock and Roll radio [00:16:00] era, like Wall of Sound.
[00:16:01] Brett: I can’t remember the producer’s name behind that,
[00:16:04] Jeffrey: Phil, uh, Phil
[00:16:05] Christina: full
[00:16:05] Brett: yeah. Yeah. So like this idea of the wall of sound. Sure, sure. . Yes. Um, but like, it came to this head kind of with Smashing Pumpkins, where they created this wall of guitar, like Billy Corrigan created this wall of guitar that you couldn’t even pick out.
[00:16:24] Brett: A guitar sound from, cuz it was so many layered tracks and that like listening to Siamese dreamed the album, like the recorded album is a totally different experience than seeing a live video because they were a studio band, in my opinion.
[00:16:40] Christina: No, they were, although I think that they did well at live stuff. Cause I have a, because they, that was my very first favorite band. And so I have a lot of like bootlegs and like live recordings and stuff that I collected over the years. But you’re right. And then I think, but the big thing obviously was melancholy and the infinite sadness when he is very, brings in the strings and, and, and the [00:17:00] orchestra and again, the layering and then just has so many hits off of that album, which was a double album in an era when that was a hard sell because you didn’t have streaming, you didn’t have, you know, other ways, like you had to buy the whole damn, like, two disk thing.
[00:17:16] Christina: Um, but, uh, but then, you know, it’s just the interpersonal stuff unfortunately kind of got in the way. And, and I, and I didn’t mind that the, um, like after Darcy left, I didn’t mind the album with, um, Melissa, um, uh, from whole,
[00:17:32] Christina: um, exactly off tomorrow. Um, and, and man, she has to be like, She has to be a saint cuz
[00:17:39] Jeffrey: she’s put up with some fucking
[00:17:41] Christina: that’s what I’m saying.
[00:17:42] Christina: She had to deal with Courtney love during like peak bad Courtney love period. And she was dealing with Billy Corgan during like peak bad Billy Corgan. Like, holy shit, Melissa, like you’re a, like, you deserve better , you know,
[00:17:57] Jeffrey: Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:58] Brett: How did this, [00:18:00] so, you know what wasn’t on our list of things to talk about today?
[00:18:03] Christina: was music.
[00:18:05] Brett: It was music in general, especially like nineties music. Uh, somehow we spent 20 minutes doing this. I, I can’t even remember how it started. Um, But that’s okay. That was, that was a fun four four. I’m gonna guess our target demo.
[00:18:22] Brett: That was a fun, little fun little walk
[00:18:25] Christina: I think so. I think that that was just like, that was a, that was also a very h d like thing to do. Like we just went on like a genuine, like h d tangent and we didn’t stop ourselves. I’m kind of, I’m kind of into that.
[00:18:35] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:18:36] Brett: a, I went to a 70 year old trans woman’s poetry reading and, uh, she revealed, she had just been diagnosed with a D H D at like, the age of 60. And like, she had always been a poet. She was very creative, used to be a blues musician. Um, and, and just like all of my questions after, after the reading, you know, [00:19:00] like o open questions, all my questions were like, tell me about being diagnosed.
[00:19:06] Brett: At the age of 60. How did that, how did that change things? Did it change things at all? Did that like change your view? Did it change your poetry? Did it change anything? The basic answer was no. I had just, uh, learned to accommodate my brain at that point. Um, but anyway, sorry, that was an ADHD thing.
[00:19:28] Christina: no, no. Totally. Okay. Um,
[00:19:29] Christina: on
[00:19:30] Jeffrey: You’re like all of my questions.
[00:19:32] Sonsor: ZocDoc
[00:19:32] Christina: was gonna say no. No. Um, uh, I, I was just gonna say, this is a great segue, uh, to talk about our sponsor, Zocdoc. Cuz if you’re looking for a diagnosis and you need to find a doctor, uh, I figured we could do our zoc read and then come back and do a mental health corner.
[00:19:46] Brett: Well done. Perfect
[00:19:48] Christina: All right?
[00:19:48] Brett: you.
[00:19:49] Christina: All right. So if you are looking for a doctor because you’re trying to find a cause for your symptoms, Maybe you think you have a d h D, you know, you’re having a hard time focusing. Um, [00:20:00] you, uh, find yourself, uh, kind of pull down rabbit holes. Uh, you might fidget a lot. There are a lot of, there are lot, lot, lot of symptoms.
[00:20:07] Christina: You know, you stumble down a TikTok rabbit hole full of questionable advice from so-called experts. And look, do not trust TikTok for health advice. I cannot say that enough times. Like, do not take medical advice from people on TikTok. That is how you get ants. That is also how like you potentially wind up in the emergency room.
[00:20:24] Christina: Um, there are better ways to get the answers that you want and the care that you deserve from trusted professionals and not random people on the internet. So Zocdoc helps you find expert doctors in medical professionals that specialize in the care you need and deliver the type of experience you want.
[00:20:42] Christina: Zocdoc is the only free app that lets you find and book doctors who are patient reviewed. Take your insurance are available when you need them, and treat almost every condition under the sun. So when you’re not feeling your best or when you’re just trying to figure out like, what is going on with my knee?
[00:20:58] Christina: Uh, this is a thing I’m, [00:21:00] I’m, I’m, I’m going, dealing with right now, and you’re trying to hold it together, finding great care shouldn’t take up all of your energy, and that’s where Zoc Dot comes in. So using their free app that millions of users rely on, including myself, you can find the right doctor that meets your needs, fits your schedule, takes your insurance.
[00:21:17] Christina: You can book an appointment with just a couple of taps on the app and you can start feeling better with Zoc. So go to zoc.com/ Overtired and download the Zoc app for free. Then find and book a top-rated doctor today. Many are available within 24 hours. That’s zoc. Do c.com/ Overtired zoc.com/ Overtired.
[00:21:43] Podcast Swap: Mental Chillness
[00:21:43] Brett: Speaking of mental health. Thank you, Christina. That was a perfect, that was a perfect one. Take read. Um, uh, speaking of mental health though, we, we do have a promo swap, uh, where once again, uh, swapping with mental chillness, [00:22:00] uh, do you want to tell us about that?
[00:22:02] Jeffrey: Yeah, sure. Um, if you’re looking for more mental health podcasts, if you’re in the market, mental chillness is a safe space that heals with the power of laughter, as that sounds nice. It’s led by Khan and Jules, two people with mental illness that come together weekly with occasional guests to share their daily process of working towards mental chillness.
[00:22:26] Jeffrey: Coming from childhood environments that weren’t open about mental wellbeing and emotional self-regulation, Khan and Jewel are opening up the conversations of the everyday struggles of dealing with A D H D, depression and anxiety, epilepsy, and growing into adulthood. They share tips and tricks of emotional awareness from their personal experiences and how they hold themselves accountable through personal bs.
[00:22:51] Jeffrey: What does that mean?
[00:22:53] Brett: It means bullshit.
[00:22:54] Jeffrey: Personal bullshit. Hold themselves accountable through personal bullshit.
[00:22:59] Brett: Why? I think [00:23:00]
[00:23:00] Jeffrey: Check out the podcast. And the way they know how to do it best is with humor. You can keep up with them on any podcast platform and the YouTube channel. Mental chillness for full video contents, mental chillness, Just, I’m just trying to help our own listeners get chill.
[00:23:21] Brett: We’re also on YouTube, if that’s where you prefer to listen to podcast. Look up Overtired on YouTube. We even published some fun shorts.
[00:23:29] Jeffrey: Yep. And I’m auctioning mine. Ha
[00:23:34] Christina: But I’ll bump.
[00:23:37] Jeffrey: Okay. Hi everybody.
[00:23:38] Mental Health Corner
[00:23:38] Brett: I’m just doing feet picks. Should we do mental health Corner?
[00:23:42] Christina: should. Oh my God. Feet picks. Don’t do that. Don’t do that, Brett.
[00:23:45] Brett: I can’t, I have this weird thing on my heels
[00:23:48] Christina: Oh yeah,
[00:23:49] Brett: I think, that I think is like fungal, but they’re like armored. I have like callouses that in case my, and I do not walk around enough to deserve callouses [00:24:00] like that something is
[00:24:01] Jeffrey: What about, do
[00:24:02] Brett: I cannot show this to anyone other than a skin doctor.
[00:24:05] Jeffrey: or a Pedicurist
[00:24:08] Christina: No, they are so judgmental and mean.
[00:24:11] Brett: went,
[00:24:12] Jeffrey: haven’t had that experience yet, but that’s, I’ve only had a couple,
[00:24:15] Brett: we have, we have a, uh, a technical college in town that has a cosmetology school and you can for like five bucks, go get
[00:24:25] Brett: a
[00:24:25] Jeffrey: student anything.
[00:24:27] Brett: and I went, I went, my mom convinced me. She’s like, let’s go get a pedicure. And I’m like, fine, whatever. So I go and they do a chemical bath on my feet and they scrub them, they scrub them clean, which is, it’s nice.
[00:24:42] Brett: My feet are soft. They put a fucking clear coat on my toenails, which I hated. Um,
[00:24:47] Jeffrey: You could say no to the clear
[00:24:48] Brett: I, I didn’t know. I didn’t, I didn’t know what they meant when they said, do you want a clear coat on your toenails? I’m like that, sure.
[00:24:55] Jeffrey: just learning. Yeah.
[00:24:57] Brett: but the chemical bath left a [00:25:00] circle, a dry, a spot, a circle of dry skin on the top of my foot.
[00:25:05] Brett: That lasted for two
[00:25:07] Jeffrey: Jesus. Two years.
[00:25:09] Brett: Two years. I had this
[00:25:11] Jeffrey: Wait, this was at the school.
[00:25:14] Brett: I mean, I wasn’t at the school for two years, but yeah. This
[00:25:16] Brett: happened
[00:25:17] Jeffrey: saying this was the student pedicurist. Uh, no way, man. I was getting, I was getting a, when I lived in New York, I, I got a, um, root canal from a student dentist
[00:25:29] Christina: Oh
[00:25:30] Jeffrey: and at, at Columbia School of Dentist Gym, like, oh, it’s fucking Columbia. Maybe the students are just a little better, you know what happened?
[00:25:36] Jeffrey: So he is, he, this was back in the day where, you know how now they give you like wraparound sunglasses, like you’re fucking barbecuing. Um, and so this was before that. This was when they wore wraparound sunglasses. Um, and, and he was wearing wraparound sunglasses for some reason, and he was doing the filing in my root with the tiny, tiny file, and then he stopped for a minute.
[00:25:57] Jeffrey: And he’s looking and he’s looking, and I, I [00:26:00] motioned for him to take the cotton and shit outta my mouth. And I said, what’s up ? And he goes, I just broke the file off in your route. And so he had to get his, he had to get his, uh, you know,
[00:26:12] Christina: He had to get his boss.
[00:26:14] Jeffrey: or whatever. And in the end of the day,
[00:26:16] Christina: real dentist.
[00:26:17] Jeffrey: yeah, all they could do was Intuit in there.
[00:26:19] Jeffrey: Like, it’s in there. It’s fucking in there. And they were, I was like, could this be a problem someday? They’re like, maybe. I’m like, okay, thanks. I was done with student shit at that point, but he said this look on his face. And I’m like, okay, before you do anything else, you’re gonna tell me why you look like that right now.
[00:26:35] Brett: so would you leave your body to science knowing that it would be students that were
[00:26:39] Jeffrey: I can’t stand the idea leaving my body to science. I had a, I had a cousin who was in medical school and he once, he would sometimes randomly send me pictures of corpse feet while I was in meetings with my phone up. And I was so disturbed by his decision to do that, you know, and I hated, I just felt so [00:27:00] disrespectful, right?
[00:27:00] Jeffrey: Like, um, that I was like, man, I don’t know if I could leave my body to science. I don’t want someone just like toying around. But then again, I don’t know, I’m
[00:27:07] Brett: feel like, I feel like once we get.
[00:27:09] Christina: I was like, I’m gone. I don’t really care. I mean, my whole thing is like, are they actually gonna use it for anything interesting or is it just gonna be like,
[00:27:19] Jeffrey: I don’t want it to be like the lesson for the day, like, here’s
[00:27:22] Christina: that’s what I’m saying.
[00:27:23] Christina: Yeah.
[00:27:23] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:27:25] Brett: We should, uh, we should talk about green burial sometime, but first, mental health corner. You’ve all been waiting. It’s time. Now. We’re at 27 minutes in, uh, the mental health corner. Who wants to kick us off? And the answer could be me, but I’ll, I’ll let you guys decide.
[00:27:45] Christina: You go.
[00:27:46] Jeffrey: Yeah, go ahead.
[00:27:47] Brett: Okay, so I’m in this weird fucking cycle.
[00:27:50] Brett: Um, like anyone who’s listening to this show knows that I have like bout to mania that lasts three to five days, followed by a couple weeks of [00:28:00] depression, usually followed by something that could maybe be considered stability, but still leans towards depression. Lately, I’ve been having one day manic cycles.
[00:28:11] Brett: Uh, like I’ll loose sleep for one night, or I’ll get up super early and I’ll just bl like blister through a bunch of code and create a bunch of stuff and be like firing on all cylinders. And then before the end of the day, I’ll feel it crash. And then for like three days I’ll, I won’t be able to wake up in the morning.
[00:28:31] Brett: I’ll just sleep constantly and then get to. What is actually a, a pretty decent stable, uh, not totally depressed, um, which will last a couple days and then boom, another like one day mania. And I don’t know what to make of this. Uh, the cyclo, emia, cyclo Mia is like the one explanation that I’ve been able to find, but I’ve not had a, a psychiatrist [00:29:00] appointment since this started happening.
[00:29:02] Brett: So I don’t have any like, uh, any medical advice on, on what’s going on, but it has been. It has been weird and oddly sustainable. Like, I can work with this, like, being productive every four days of having like a day where I do four days worth of shit. Uh, and then just kinda like sleep and then like have it come back instead of like that three, four weeks of like, not knowing if it’ll ever happen again.
[00:29:31] Brett: Just like having this rapid like turnaround. Um, I, it’s not ideal, like, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s not perfect. I have seriously been looking into microdosing
[00:29:49] Christina: Okay.
[00:29:49] Brett: and like the people that I know that are doing it have seen major improvements in. Depression. [00:30:00] And I think, and I, I, I’ve not, I’ve not run this by my psychiatrist yet, but I will before I do anything.
[00:30:07] Brett: Um, but I think that, uh, like shrooms, for example, could, could help with depression without affecting my other medication. Like, the reason I can’t take an antidepressant is because it can trigger mania. And because I’m bipolar, I can’t effectively treat depression, uh, without risking elevating my mood too far.
[00:30:33] Brett: Um, but I feel like, uh, the, the lesser studied realm of psychotropics. In treatment of depression, and maybe even like ketamine therapy or something. But I feel like a lot of those could have positive results without the usual, uh, downsides of antidepressants for me. So that’s a thing. And I will keep, I will [00:31:00] keep our listeners posted.
[00:31:01] Brett: Um, I, I’m going to do this very carefully and under the advice of medical professionals, but, uh, it is something I’m very curious about.
[00:31:12] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s super interesting. I, I so curious about it, and I’m so curious about where, like legislation goes or the, you know, as we, because it’s now to the point where like, even like major mainstream podcasts are doing, like the Mind Bloom read, which is I, the ketamine thing is like little dicey through services like that, I think, but
[00:31:30] Brett: We have Keta, we have a, we have a Ketamine therapist in town
[00:31:33] Jeffrey: you do. Oh, that’s great.
[00:31:35] Christina: Yeah, I, I’m pretty sure we had them too. And we, we had Mind Blum as, as a sponsor a few times. We couldn’t, we couldn’t get them, neither of us could try it because of of, of legislation stuff. This is what I think it becomes really interesting in, you know, how these, how these drugs are like scheduled and, and how, how they’re classified because obviously people use them as street drugs and, and other things, but there are real medical use [00:32:00] cases and so it’s, it’s interesting to see.
[00:32:03] Christina: Um, I mean it’s dissimilar insofar as I, ironically, I feel like it’ll be easier to get legislation and, and make things like, um, you know, small amounts of psychedelics or ketamine
[00:32:14] Brett: SIL psilocybin and L S D, like all of the loss surrounding that were just like racist to the core.
[00:32:21] Christina: No,
[00:32:22] Brett: there was never
[00:32:23] Christina: Well, no, no.
[00:32:24] Brett: any medical danger to them.
[00:32:26] Christina: No, no, no. But, but, but I mean in terms of, well, but marijuana there were, there’s, there’s not either. And marijuana
[00:32:32] Brett: Again, again, racist to the
[00:32:34] Christina: Well, 100%. What I’m saying though is like, marijuana’s this weird thing where, you know, more and more states have it legalized, but it’s not a federal, it’s still illegal.
[00:32:42] Christina: Federally, I weirdly could see them making, you know, carve outs for ketamine and, and, and psilocybin and things like that, like at a federal level because the a m a might get involved in lobby and be like, oh, but this is this certain treatment thing. And marijuana, even though it’s a great pain treatment and [00:33:00] whatnot, doesn’t ha you know what I mean?
[00:33:01] Christina: Like, they, they’re not, they’re not using it as like a, as as a depression treatment. So, so, so,
[00:33:08] Brett: that? It doesn’t have clinical, clinical treatment value.
[00:33:11] Christina: right. And so, so it is this weird thing where like, that’s just strictly a recreational thing and you can argue, hey, so is alcohol, you know, like treated the same way. Um, But, but, but the federal government is still like, on their, their hands on it. But that’s what makes this so weird is like, okay, I can, you have like a, a ketamine like place in Winona.
[00:33:32] Christina: You’re like, okay, but, but what are, what are the laws here? Like, is this going to violate? Cuz one of the questions that, you know, this, and this is not, not even a, um, this isn’t even a fake thing, this is a real thing, is that like, if you’re trying to apply for like, a government job, for instance, and, and you admit that you’ve done drugs, even if it was under the guise of a doctor, like that could be completely disqualifying.
[00:33:56] Christina: So that opens up a lot of questions. Like, like you can’t get a job for [00:34:00] like the federal government if you’re like, yeah, I, I smoke weed or I, I take edibles even though it was Lela in my state.
[00:34:06] Brett: we have a PA locally who, I actually saw him when he was at the, uh, major, the hospital in town, um, as a psychiatrist, uh, as a, as a, as a pa. But, um, he left Winona Clinic and started a practice on his own that literally builds itself. I can’t remember the phrasing he uses, but he bill, he builds himself as a weed clinic.
[00:34:37] Brett: Like he uses pot to treat all kinds of psychiatric disorders. And he made the headlines of the newspaper as like, basically the guy you go to if you need a, a weed card. And it seems sketchy to me because I don’t see pop being a viable treatment for things like depression or anxiety for that [00:35:00] matter. Um, but that was what he built his practice on.
[00:35:04] Brett: I I see a lot more potential for ketamine.
[00:35:06] Jeffrey: Have you ever seen the p and peel sketch where, uh, he’s being walked
[00:35:11] Brett: Oh yeah,
[00:35:12] Christina: Yes.
[00:35:12] Jeffrey: you know, you just, he’ll, he’ll, he’ll give you cannabis for anything. And he goes in and the doctor’s like, what’s going on? He is like, AIDS
[00:35:18] Christina: Ha,
[00:35:20] Jeffrey: Rickets,
[00:35:22] Brett: I love
[00:35:23] Jeffrey: that. I’ll put a link for that. That is the best sketch.
[00:35:26] Christina: and Peele was like such a great show. Um,
[00:35:29] Brett: Maybe you have a backache. Nope.
[00:35:31] Jeffrey: Nope. Yeah, it’s just like, Uh, amazing. It’s a good bit.
[00:35:37] Brett: All right. All that’s my, that’s my mental health update.
[00:35:41] Jeffrey: All right, Christina, you wanna go. I
[00:35:43] Christina: sure thing. So, uh, I, my, my pen health is doing pretty good. I was just, I was out of town for a week, which, uh, in two different cities. So that is was the first time that I’ve been like, in a while that I’ve done kind of one of like a multi hop thing. So I went [00:36:00] to, um, la, well Pasadena more specifically for, for scale the Southern California Linux Expo, which was really, really fun.
[00:36:07] Christina: And it was really great to connect with people. I met some new friends and. Definitely it’s a nerd, uh, conference. I met Ken Thompson and, and, and, and, and like thanked him for everything he’s given us. He was like so humble and nice. Um, and uh, and then I was in, in Salt Lake City area, uh, Sandy for, for work, uh, which was, you know, I, I got to meet up with a friend who lives, um, in, uh, in the area.
[00:36:30] Christina: But you know that, that was not as spun as as scale, but no, my mental health is doing, is doing pretty well. Um, I was really, really tired and I took an edible on Thursday night and I slept for 13 hours and that was magical.
[00:36:48] Jeffrey: awesome.
[00:36:49] Christina: A plus. Cannot, cannot recommend enough. No. But I’ve also been talking to my doctor about potentially doing like ketamine and some of the other, like the.
[00:36:57] Brett: Yeah.
[00:36:57] Christina: It’s hard because he’s in another state [00:37:00] and, and he could find me someone who would do it, but like, I would need to have someone local to kind of do that. And I have a really hard time trusting and like even wanting to go through the process of like finding a new, or finding like a secondary shrink,
[00:37:13] Brett: Understood.
[00:37:13] Christina: which which is so funny.
[00:37:14] Christina: I have somebody mention to me like, you’re the only person I’ve ever here call, call it a shrink. And I’m like, yeah, maybe that’s an old, like throwaway, like
[00:37:22] Brett: a generational thing.
[00:37:23] Christina: It Well, it is and it’s not. I think I be, I’ve been going for so long that I’m just like, you know, this is what he is. But I’m also like, I’m not going to my therapist.
[00:37:31] Christina: I mean he is, but like, he’s my psychiatrist, so.
[00:37:35] Jeffrey: He’s the shrink.
[00:37:36] Christina: Yeah, exactly. Um, also, I don’t mind like poking fun of myself a little bit on that, but that did make me think. I was like, oh, okay.
[00:37:42] Brett: I think that’s the, the term shrink, like psychologists hate that
[00:37:46] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:37:47] Brett: uh, in my experience, like the com head shrinker. Um, but for, for me, it’s a lighthearted way of saying that I need, uh, like therapy,
[00:37:58] Christina: That’s how I
[00:37:59] Brett: that [00:38:00] I need psychiatric, uh, guidance. And for me, like using, uh, in sixth grade, I, my grandfathers both died on the same day
[00:38:09] Brett: and
[00:38:09] Jeffrey: What, what? Where were they Both in Manona.
[00:38:11] Brett: No, no one was in Missouri, one was in my
[00:38:14] Brett: basement. Um, we, we had a, we had a walkout, we had a walkout home, uh, furnished home in our basement where
[00:38:21] Brett: my, where
[00:38:22] Jeffrey: down there.
[00:38:23] Brett: my maternal grandparents were living. And they both, both grandfathers, died on the same day. And I went to my sixth grade math teacher and I said, I gotta go.
[00:38:32] Brett: My grandpa kicked the bucket and he sent me to the principal’s office because I was so disrespectful about my grandparents’ death. Like for me, that was how I was coping.
[00:38:45] Jeffrey: Wait, how old were you?
[00:38:46] Brett: uh, 12
[00:38:47] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:38:47] Brett: and that was, that was my form of coping, was to use a colloquial term to refer
[00:38:54] Jeffrey: distances you from the
[00:38:55] Brett: Yeah, exactly. And I feel like shrink is very much that, like we use [00:39:00] that almost defensively to say, yeah, I’m going to see my shrink.
[00:39:03] Brett: Instead of I’m going to see a licensed psychiatrist to talk about my mental illness. It’s shorthand.
[00:39:11] Jeffrey: So wait, hold on. How, I don’t mean to, uh, I don’t mean to make light of this, um, or minimize it, but how close in time did they die?
[00:39:19] Brett: About six hours.
[00:39:20] Jeffrey: Jesus Christ. That’s crazy. How did they, how did they each go?
[00:39:24] Brett: Uh, heart attack, both of them
[00:39:26] Christina: Oh my God.
[00:39:29] Brett: Yeah. Which is, which is why I am, which is why I go to the ER very quickly when I have any kind of heart related problems.
[00:39:38] Jeffrey: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Okay.
[00:39:41] Brett: Yeah. Sorry, Christina, I didn’t mean to hijack your mental
[00:39:44] Christina: No, no, that’s Tyler. That’s totally fine. I’m basically done now, but like, that’s, damn, that’s, that’s, um, that’s intense. Okay.
[00:39:52] Brett: was a, it was a fun summer.
[00:39:55] Jeffrey: Oof. Um,
[00:39:57] Brett: I, I say summer because it was towards the end of the school year, and [00:40:00] then we had to go to two funerals, like as the beginning of my summer break. We went to, we tra traveling around the country, going to funerals. It was fun.
[00:40:09] Jeffrey: My, um, my maternal grandfather died on my birthday and I was, and it was pre-cellphone and everything, and I was out that day. And when I got home that night on my voicemail was essentially like an audio diary of his day where my mom would call me and say, Hey, it’s not looking good. Then she’d call and say, Hey, he wants all the sisters and you know, he wants all the siblings here.
[00:40:30] Jeffrey: And, and then finally the call that saying that he was, he had passed and it was such a, it was such a intense way to experience the news of his death. Cuz it really, it really unfolded, you
[00:40:40] Christina: Because you really, you, you hurt. You hurt. Yeah.
[00:40:42] Jeffrey: yeah, yeah.
[00:40:43] Christina: and like you weren’t able to like be there and you don’t know what’s gonna happen, you know, until you get to the final call.
[00:40:49] Jeffrey: And well, but here’s the thing. It went backwards cuz it’s like the most recent
[00:40:53] Christina: Oh, so, oh, right, right, right, right. It starts
[00:40:55] Jeffrey: so it was, it
[00:40:56] Christina: hear that and you’re going with it, and then you’re going backwards. oh,
[00:40:58] Christina: man. So it’s, it’s, it’s, oh, [00:41:00] wow.
[00:41:01] Jeffrey: Um. Anyway, uh, is that, is that you Christina? Should I go or do you
[00:41:06] Christina: Yeah. Go. Yeah, I’m good. I’m good.
[00:41:08] Jeffrey: I just have kind of a hack from my mental health check in. Um, I don’t mean to constantly equate mental health with medication, but because I’ve been in a period that I was warned would be long of kind of trying to find the right medication for bipolar. I, I have, uh, I’m in a situation now where I’m getting off of one medication and, and merging into another. And I’m also in a situation where like I, I have lost my ability to kind of remember when I started taking any particular drug or, you know, when I was taking certain drugs at the same time, whatever.
[00:41:44] Jeffrey: So I, um, . What I did was I in my, in my Google calendar, I just made a little like, um, a little calendar event at the top of a day where something needed to happen, either where I started something or decreased it or increased it or ended it right. And [00:42:00] um, and I gave it a hashtag, like hashtag meds in the notes.
[00:42:04] Jeffrey: And now on my fantastic, hell on my phone or on my calendar, I can just search hashtag meds and I get a really clear list of what’s coming up. So for me, for me, I have three or four, um, you know, this one goes down a little, this one goes up a little events over the next, um, two months. And I can now just like, and I’m constantly checking it.
[00:42:24] Jeffrey: I’m just, even though I kind of know what it is, I just get kind of like nervous I’m gonna miss it or whatever. And so I just do that search hashtag meds, and I get my list and it works on my phone, like I said, with fantastic. How
[00:42:34] Brett: That is so
[00:42:35] Brett: smart.
[00:42:35] Jeffrey: on my desktop, but it’s a huge help. And it’s also just important for me to know when I started meds at all because, uh, up until, um, like March of 20, February of 2020, I had never taken.
[00:42:46] Jeffrey: And I started then, and it kind of like to see how it kind of turns into two meds
[00:42:51] Brett: There, there are so many times that I’ll, I’ll be some, something will come up in history. Someone will say, well, you did this [00:43:00] thing at this time. Which med were you on? Or had had you? And I won’t remember. Like, I, I don’t, those changes happen and they seem important at the time, but the actual dates, the, the way it correlates with things that I might not immediately associate with them is, is always beyond me.
[00:43:19] Brett: So that is a really good hack to be able to just open up the calendar and say, oh yeah, here’s where, here’s where that med change and here’s here’s what it might have affected. In retrospect, I might be able to see that.
[00:43:31] Jeffrey: Well, and the, the other thing I’ve bet that’s a little harder is so if you get a, say you get a pill that’s 25 milligrams, but you take 75 milligrams, meaning three of those pills. Right. There’s not an easy way looking at my prescription history to know, um, when I went from one to two to three, I’m sure my prescriber knows, but, um, I was, I just went into my, um, email and I went into my messages and searched the name of that drug and because usually I was telling somebody that I was going up that [00:44:00] day or whatever.
[00:44:01] Jeffrey: So that was part of building that history too, cuz it’s like, . It’s like the future and the history are both important to me, and it just, I don’t know what it is. Like putting, being able to look at the kind of boundaries of things just helped me to feel a little less, sort of like, I’m swimming in mats, you know, it’s just like, oh yeah, I started this here because of this.
[00:44:19] Jeffrey: And, you know, so that was, that’s been really nice for me, um, because I’ve just, I, I’m not, I don’t love switching out meds. It’s not a, not a particularly nice experience. I mean, the other , the other thing I would just advise people on is that something that my wife and I have realized is like, oh, when I’m dropping an amount or adding an amount, I’m probably for a couple days gonna just be off.
[00:44:40] Jeffrey: And oftentimes that offness is like really irritable. Um, and knowing for both of us being able to be like, okay, got it. It’s on the calendar. This is happening right now. Let’s like, let’s remember, you know, um, so.
[00:44:55] Brett: Elle is very good about like, noting, like if I tell her, [00:45:00] uh, my, my psychiatrist says I’m gonna make this change and I’ll do make it at my next refill, she will make a note because she knows that like, my mood will shift, even though I don’t, I don’t make any special note of it. Even, even in my own head, I’m just like, okay, yeah, we’re gonna shift medication.
[00:45:18] Brett: Maybe eventually things will get better with whatever problem I’m having. Um, but she keeps very close track because it affects our relationship, it affects, uh, our interpersonal communication and to be able to say, yeah, obviously you just did, you know, you just made this change to the chemicals in your body.
[00:45:39] Brett: Yeah, that’s really helpful and, and again, like having it on a calendar, there are so many times that would’ve helped me.
[00:45:49] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I mean, the other thing too is just knowing, knowing yourself and, and really paying attention. Cause like for me, I know that the most common impact of a medication change is that like, not [00:46:00] only am I irritable, but I just find it completely impossible to be soft. Right? Like, I’m just like all hard
[00:46:06] Brett: because it takes, it takes energy to be truly gentle with people. Empathy takes a certain amount of energy, and when your energy is consumed with dealing with your own shit, like whatever happens in your brain when you make a medication change, you don’t have the energy to like accept other people’s input.
[00:46:26] Brett: To accept input and process it properly to have a soft response. And that can get, that can get real messy real fast.
[00:46:34] Chicago Dibs!
[00:46:34] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, definitely. . Well, that’s my check in. Um, can I add something to that? That’s really quick. , that’s about irritability. So I had a really bad fall trying to get into my car today because we’re at that point in Minnesota winter where, um, everything outside of your car when you park is like, uh, just a slope of ice basically.
[00:46:55] Jeffrey: And so, uh, trying to get into our car in our little driveway, um, you have to like really brace [00:47:00] yourself and all this shit. And I was carrying a big box. I was carrying a coffee and I totally bailed and, and fell and I was so pissed off. But at the end of the day, we don’t really have room on our street for our car anymore because people are used to us.
[00:47:12] Jeffrey: Parking in our little teeny drive spot. Right. And I was reminded of, when I lived in Chicago, um, there was a sort of a rule or a kind of a phenomenon called dibs parking. Right? And, and basically what that means is, and what that meant is that if you had a parking space and it was winter, you’re like, the fuck if anybody’s gonna get this space?
[00:47:31] Jeffrey: First of all, you position yourself before the first big snowfall so that you have the good spot and then you hold it by putting things like chairs, or I had seen cribs or baby bouncers, or I saw a microwave once. Uh, I’ve seen, I’ve seen, I think I saw a dishwasher, um, that they would just slide out of the way.
[00:47:49] Jeffrey: And I am including in the show notes, an amazing photo essay of examples of this. But I wanna just say, Brett and I were talking about this before the show in Minnesota, we’ve gotten to that point where no one gives a shit about [00:48:00] anybody anymore. Right. You’re just like, you’re so tired of dealing with
[00:48:02] Christina: It’s just so cold and like, just
[00:48:04] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:48:04] Jeffrey: And you’re snow and slipping. And, um, I had this thing happen, the ultimate Chicago dibs experience when I was living in Chicago, in Humboldt Park. Um, and what happened was the person who had reserved a space was watching another person move the chair out of the way and take the spot, and they went out and stabbed the person. That person I think was okay, but I was like, I was like that. That is a rule you don’t fuck with
[00:48:38] Brett: This feeds into, this feeds into my mother’s belief that Chicago is a, a hellscape of, of crime and, and, um, she watches a lot of Fox news
[00:48:47] Jeffrey: Oh yeah, sure,
[00:48:49] Brett: and basically basically Chicago is on fire and everyone is stabbing everyone but
[00:48:54] Jeffrey: We were on a block that clearly contained a meaningful gang leader. And I’m pretty sure I knew him, but we [00:49:00] just didn’t talk about it cause he was right next to my house. But like, there was, there was a dude who was about, I mean he was big and strong. He was just a giant and he would walk up and down our street all summer long, um, uh, like on patrol.
[00:49:14] Jeffrey: And, and the guy next to me, uh, was I think maybe on house arrest , because he would never come out of the gate. So I would just sit on the stoop and we’d just bullshit. But like one night a guy went through that gate and I’m not , I’m not trying to support your mom’s belief cuz it’s bullshit. He, someone came through that, that gate and just shot up this guy’s picture window right under my window, , and then just like took off.
[00:49:37] Jeffrey: It was the crazy, another time a guy pissed the Latin King King’s logo in a snowbank, which I thought was the cool, coolest, most badass thing I ever saw besides the stabbing. Um, anyway, Chicago is incredible.
[00:49:48] Brett: I like, there’s one picture in this, in this link you had of, it’s like a chair and a lectern.
[00:49:54] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
[00:49:57] Brett: Well, there’s one that’s a Bears [00:50:00] parking sign with an arrow
[00:50:03] Jeffrey: It was, it was nuts. It was nuts. Anyway, that’s what, that’s what I got.
[00:50:08] The MIghty Yeti
[00:50:08] Brett: the one add-on I have, we’re talking about death and the, a big, so I’m, I’m about to leave on a, a trip to Michigan, uh, which is, if I were, if I were, if someone said, you get a week off of work, where do you want to go? Uh, Michigan would. Way down on my list, but I’m going, cause it’s where Elle’s sister lives and, and her three kids.
[00:50:34] Brett: And we’re gonna have like a, it’s like a family vacation, I guess. Um, not, not something I’m super excited about, but we do get to stop in Chicago and Indian Indianapolis for, uh,
[00:50:47] Jeffrey: Two great cities.
[00:50:48] Brett: some fun dinners, some fun breakfast, some good overnight stays. Um, and we got a cool Airbnb for the week in Michigan. But anyway, the big concern [00:51:00] is my 19 year old cat could go at any time
[00:51:05] Jeffrey: oh, man.
[00:51:06] Brett: it, it would break my heart
[00:51:09] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:51:10] Brett: when I was out of town.
[00:51:13] Brett: If he had to go on his Yeah. Yeti, if he had to, if he had to go. And I wasn’t there like we are attached at the hip. If I’m around, he is with me. And, um, Like we’re, we have someone house sitting, uh, we’re not sure yet if she is going to be comfortable with like, all the medications he has to take with giving him intravenous, not intravenous, intramuscular fluids.
[00:51:38] Brett: Um, subdermal fluids, I guess would be
[00:51:41] Jeffrey: with a, with a needle.
[00:51:42] Brett: yeah. Um, yeah. And like, because he gets dehydrated. Um, but if you mix in, like we have this cat food we call kitty crack. Um, it’s not, it’s not healthy food, but he will always eat it. So he mix it in with like a bowl of [00:52:00] water and he’ll like slurp it down. Um, and maybe he can get away with that.
[00:52:05] Brett: But like, do I, do I, do I leave, uh, a cat with a, an expiration date with a stranger? Or do I send him to board at the vet where I know he’ll get like, the best possible. Medical care, uh, which would, it would honestly, it would cost about the same, uh, the, what we’re paying the house sitter. I could also pay the vet and we’d have to pay twice cause we have two animals.
[00:52:33] Brett: But, um, it, it’d be like 40, 40 bucks a day to, to board him at, at the vet. He, we’ve been going to forever and it’s just like I have all these contingency plans. Like if some, if I get a call, like I will, I will have someone drop me off at the airport in Detroit and I will just find like the fastest flight home so that I can be here to hold his hand.
[00:52:58] Brett: And it’s just this [00:53:00] weird situation
[00:53:00] Jeffrey: Does he get stressed if he’s bordered? Do you think?
[00:53:03] Brett: used to, he used to like any change of scenery, used to, he used to get crystals in his bladder, which would have to be expressed through his penis, which was a very painful prospect. And this is how I learned that Yeti will never hurt me, is he would hold my arm, he would wrap his paws around my arm while a vet squeezed a crystal, threw his dick, and he would yell and cry, but he would never extend his claws and he would never bite.
[00:53:35] Brett: He would just hold my arm until it was over, and then he would be fine.
[00:53:40] Jeffrey: wow.
[00:53:41] Brett: he is, he is like, honestly, like I, I know he’s my cat. I’m gonna say he is the best cat, but he, he is the best cat I have ever known. He is just gentle to the core, extremely empathetic. Um, he’s been an amazing partner and I don’t want him to die [00:54:00] without me.
[00:54:00] Christina: Totally. So, okay, so in that case, maybe being with the vet, like who do you think is gonna call you more reliably?
[00:54:08] Brett: I don’t know.
[00:54:10] Jeffrey: Well, that’s a good question.
[00:54:12] Brett: I, I think the vet would feel responsible enough to, or I think the vet would recognize a problem before a house center would, I think the vet would be more proactive in that regard because we’re basically, we’re gonna give the house sitter the best information we have, uh, and try to give her an i her an idea what to look out for.
[00:54:34] Brett: But she’s not trained. She doesn’t, and she doesn’t know Yeti the way I know Yeti. Like, like I can see discomfort in Yeti’s eyes. I know when he’s not. Okay. She’ll have no idea. Um, cuz cats hide, hide pain, right? Like, like they, they make it all very internal. And I have 20 years of. Knowing when Yeti is not [00:55:00] okay, and she’ll have no idea.
[00:55:01] Brett: So maybe, maybe the bet is, and he’s old enough to not give a fuck where he is these days. Like he, you can take him anywhere and he just, he’ll just sleep. Like, he’s like, all right, this is a comfy spot. I don’t care where I am anymore. Like, he used to freak out about leaving home, but I don’t, I think he would be okay.
[00:55:21] Brett: I think he would just sleep all day at the vet.
[00:55:23] Christina: Yeah. So I, I, I would say the vet and then I would like be very clear with the vet, be like, look, I wanna be here with him. So if you’re noticing things, don’t, don’t like, think that you’re putting me out or whatever, just call me because I will find a way back.
[00:55:37] Brett: I, I will fly home. Yes. Yeah. So anyway, that’s, I guess that’s actually part of my mental
[00:55:43] Christina: I was gonna say, this
[00:55:44] Jeffrey: Yeah. No kidding.
[00:55:45] Christina: that you’d be going through. Like this is, this is a lot, you know, I mean, and, and then like, and, and, and I’m so sorry that this is gonna be like hanging over you, like with this family stuff, like when you’re there, you’re not really going to be there.
[00:55:55] Christina: There’s gonna be a part of you that is always concerned about
[00:55:58] Brett: been, it’s been like that for a couple [00:56:00] years now. Like I’ve never, he’s old enough that anytime I leave for more than a few days, like there’s always the possibility that things go south while I’m gone. And it’s always, it always drags on my, my heartstrings to like, to like leave. And I, I can’t, I can’t just
[00:56:19] Brett: sit
[00:56:20] Christina: No, you can’t. You know, I mean, no, that, that’s, that’s like a difficult thing is, is especially if it’s been a couple of years, like, because then, um, then, then like, you know, you’ve had like the opportunity costs, you know what I mean? Like, you’re like, okay, well I stayed home for all this period of time and it was fine.
[00:56:34] Christina: Like, what did I give up? And now it’s like, okay, now it might actually be closer to time, but like I, I, you know, can’t,
[00:56:40] Brett: my,
[00:56:41] Christina: to be in stasis?
[00:56:42] Brett: my maternal grandmother had Parkinson’s and, uh, she, she was given like a year to live and, uh, she went into hospice care and. She lived for another 10 years
[00:56:58] Christina: Oh my god.
[00:56:59] Brett: [00:57:00] in hospice care for 10 years. And, uh, at, at, at most, for most of it, I was the only person left in town, uh, like my parents had had to move.
[00:57:11] Brett: And, uh, it was me living in Winona and visiting my grandmother. And it got to the point where it was like, she’s never gonna die.
[00:57:24] Jeffrey: Mm.
[00:57:24] Brett: and honestly, by the time we got the phone call by, I got the phone call like, your, your grandmother has passed. Uh, it was a relief.
[00:57:33] Christina: It had to be,
[00:57:34] Brett: she just kept and, and like, not in a, she could barely talk.
[00:57:39] Christina: well, this is what I’m saying, like, like it wasn’t living right. Like, like, like her, like her, her, her, her, her, her, you know, she was breathing
[00:57:46] Brett: was, yeah. Literally just breathing. She wasn’t mentally there. She, she couldn’t do anything physically by herself without help. Like she had to be moved. She had to be picked up, put it in the wheelchair, pushed to the table, fed [00:58:00] food, and then taken back to bed. And it was no way to live.
[00:58:03] Brett: I, it’s part of why my, um, my living will is very clear about if I am, if, if I can go, let me
[00:58:12] Christina: totally. You have a D N r? Um, yeah. Um, my, my grandmother and it wasn’t like that, but she, she was, it, you know, she, she was in, um, nursing home and she died and whatnot, but it was one of those things where she had a A A D N R and we were very grateful for that because when she went and we were there, um, like, you know, we, we’d said our goodbyes and whatnot, but she hadn’t been, she had had mental acuity in quite some time, um, uh, because she had Alzheimer’s or dementia or, you know, whatever.
[00:58:44] Christina: Um, but, but it was, it was one of those things where like, when you see that happen, like when you see like prolonged suffering, we were really glad that she had, you know, we had the, we had the advanced directive to, to not continue to keep her going because. God, that’s a nightmare to be, you know, [00:59:00] in hospice you think, which is supposed to be for, for end stages and then go another decade and then lose even more
[00:59:07] Brett: Yeah. I don’t, I don’t care how young you are right now, go out, uh, find whatever, whatever resources you need. A lawyer or the hospital can provide you with the forms. Uh, but have a living will have, have a get your d n R in order because shit can happen. And unless you wanna live as a vegetable and be a train on everybody, make, get that, get that in writing.
[00:59:36] Brett: Get that taken care of now while you’re young, while you still have the option. We should do a whole episode on euthanasia. I feel like that would be a real upper,
[00:59:46] Jeffrey: Yeah. Okay. That
[00:59:47] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say now, now, now,
[00:59:49] Jeffrey: Tune in next week, everybody.
[00:59:50] Christina: next week when we, when we have a a, a live viewing of Million Dollar Baby, A group viewing. Yeah.
[00:59:57] Grapptitude
[00:59:57] Jeffrey: Hey, it’s gratitude [01:00:00] time
[01:00:00] Brett: Oh, shit. Yeah.
[01:00:02] Christina: Yeah, we didn’t talk about anything that we were going to talk about,
[01:00:04] Brett: We had, we, we hit nothing on our
[01:00:07] Christina: Zero.
[01:00:08] Jeffrey: I got, I got, I’ll take first gratitude. It’s not exactly an app, but, um, the New York Post has a, has a , has a page where you can just look at their covers and, and I’ve long
[01:00:22] Christina: Oh, I love it.
[01:00:23] Jeffrey: respected and ab horde their, um, their skills. And so I just wanna give you a few examples from recent covers.
[01:00:30] Jeffrey: Okay. For the, um, for the story about the spy balloon being shut down, headline Pop secret,
[01:00:38] Christina: Ha. Pop secret. I love it.
[01:00:40] Jeffrey: uh, for, um, Sam Bankman Fried, who we all remember is a very hairy crypto bro. Harry Plotter. Hmm. How about that?
[01:00:49] Christina: I love it.
[01:00:50] Jeffrey: With a, with another bit. They have a couple bullets. One is begs for bail because he’s a quote, depressed vegan,
[01:00:57] Brett: What was the, what was the Donald Trump [01:01:00] after the midterms one?
[01:01:01] Jeffrey: Oh, I don’t
[01:01:02] Brett: It was a hump. It was a Humpty reference.
[01:01:04] Jeffrey: was a good one. Here’s one that’s about the, uh, covid leaked from the Chinese lab. It had to be woo. Ugh. God. I got a couple more. Okay. Um, Baldwin, uh, this is the subhead. Baldwin was on cell phone during gun safety training, which by the way is awful. Headline Dolt 45. Uh, that one goes woo.
[01:01:25] Jeffrey: Uh, and what do I, last one is about the, uh, bailout of Silicon Valley Bank and its tech support and the s is a dollar sign. Anyway, you, they, it turns out they have their own little webpage just for their covers, cuz they, they know how good and horrible they are at that, uh, at that game. I am not in any way, shape or form, uh,
[01:01:48] Brett: Endorsing the post
[01:01:49] Jeffrey: or endorsing for the work of, of the New York Post, but I s I remain in, in disbelief.
[01:01:56] Jeffrey: Uh, so anyway, that’s
[01:01:57] Brett: It’s, it’s kinda like the Enquirer, like [01:02:00] you can really enjoy the cover of the Enquirer without
[01:02:03] Christina: I I’m, I’m gonna,
[01:02:05] Brett: the Enquirer.
[01:02:06] Christina: the post is better than the Inquirer. Like it’s a higher quality thing, but you’re not wrong. But the Post is just, they have the best headlines, and I love the war between the posts and the daily news. Like, like, they’re, like ongoing, like beef is one of the greatest things in media. Um, make sure you put that, that, that website,
[01:02:23] Christina: um, in, in, uh, in, in the links,
[01:02:27] Brett: what’s the uk, is it the Daily Caller? Is that the,
[01:02:30] Christina: well, the, the Daily Mail and it, the, the, the Daily
[01:02:32] Brett: Daily Mail. That’s The Daily Mail is what I’m thinking of. They do, they do the same kind of just fucking great headlines with just horrible, horrible takes on everything.
[01:02:43] Christina: Yeah. And, and, and the Daily Mail and, uh, the Post have like some sort of syndication thing because both of them will pay for the paparazzi shots. So, and then like the Daily Mail, what I love about them is they’ll do like this exhaustive like, description of every single photo that you see in like, the most, like, deranged way [01:03:00] in like, and in like insulting or in, in, or in some cases, like weirdly like complimentary method.
[01:03:05] Christina: And then they describe the clothing and the like, oh, you can buy this top just like this person that we’re shitting on. Um, it, it’s, it’s really, really fantastic. But no, but post headlines are the best. Uh, and, and look, page six has some good gossip sometimes. And, and I, and I, and, and I miss, I Ms. Keith Kelly’s media column because he was, uh, a great, he, he, he retired, uh, last year, but he always had like the dirt, so that’s a very good
[01:03:31] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[01:03:32] Christina: Um,
[01:03:33] Brett: guys, did you guys see Neela Patel’s, um, printer
[01:03:38] Christina: Yes. That was the best thing. That was the best thing I’ve read. I saw it. Oh, it’s so good. It’s perfect. It’s exactly what you would think. It’s that it, it, all it is is, yeah.
[01:03:47] Brett: hi. Hi. The headline, if I, um, this is from memory, but, uh, best Printer 2023, just by the Brother Laser printer that everybody has. It’s fine.
[01:03:58] Jeffrey: Yeah.[01:04:00]
[01:04:00] Christina: That’s exactly what it is. And, and it, and it’s so good. It was one of those things that I, that, uh, I saw and I was like, yep, this is accurate. And then it shows off all the different photos the
[01:04:08] Brett: follow the link for whatever, for whatever, for whatever we get the most affiliate profit from. That’s what the lingo before. Just click it.
[01:04:17] Christina: just click it. They’re like, this is the one you want. Like, I’ve had mine for forever. And then it has like photos of different, like Verge, you know, staffers. And it’s so funny because this is what I’ve been telling people for years. I’m like, just get a brother printer. Like get the all in one, get
[01:04:28] Christina: the other thing.
[01:04:29] Christina: It’s, it’s fine. It’ll last you forever. You just need to print shipping labels and occasional documents. You’re not caring about photos or anything else. Just get the brother printer. Like I, I, I made my dad get one of those and then he bought an HP anyway and I was pissed off. I was like, just use the brother.
[01:04:44] Christina: The brother is fine.
[01:04:46] Jeffrey: My, uh, my brother I, I believe is kicking up the air. It kicks up about every, um, three years cuz I’ve had it forever, which is optical photo conductor near end of life which I [01:05:00] think is just the drum. I can’t remember. It’s whatever holds the toner, but you just replace that every three years and you’re fine.
[01:05:05] Brett: just for clarity, the reason I got here was because Christina said that sometimes in the description they tell you where you can buy
[01:05:13] Brett: the clothing, and I was like, yeah, affiliate cash. And then that led me to Neely Patel’s. Okay. Just, just to just clarify the trade of thought.
[01:05:22] Christina: totally, totally. I, I, I didn’t know I was, I was like, if that was gonna be your gratitude, although it was like a great thing. I was, I was like, that’s a weird, I was like, that’s a weird gratitude thing. But
[01:05:30] Brett: my, my gratitude, I, I really thought we were gonna talk about AI this episode, just because it’s so prevalent
[01:05:37] Christina: yeah, we didn’t even get to talk about G P T four, but it’s okay.
[01:05:40] Brett: but, and, and we will get to it cuz it’s not going away. Um, my picks for the week are, uh, swift, g p t. We’ve talked about some Mac uh, clients for chat, G p T before, um, a newish one came out called Swift, G p t.
[01:05:59] Brett: It’s free. [01:06:00] It gives you, this is since the actual release of the api. Uh, so it’s no longer just a wrapper around the web interface and you get an actual, like iMessage chat interface to chat G P t. It’s really well done. Uh, for some reason it doesn’t have like sparkle updates yet. You have to download new versions.
[01:06:22] Brett: Uh, but Mac updater, we’ll let you know when there’s a new version. Um, and it is, it, you can, you can put in your own API key. Uh, so, and it will tell you it’ll track cost for you, uh, if you have your own API key in there. Um, and then the other one that is similar is, right ma, uh, which I discovered through Product Hunt.
[01:06:45] Brett: I, I tried it out, decided to pay for it. The developer was like, oh my God, thank you. How did you find out about this? And I explained to was from Product Con. Um, I don’t think he’s getting a ton of business, but he has written a [01:07:00] chat G P T interface that works with Mac OS accessibility. So you can just highlight some text, hit a shortcut key, and pop up a chat G P T interface that you can predefine prompts on.
[01:07:14] Brett: So you can have like an explain this prompt or a comment, this code prompt or like whatever prefix prompt you want, and it will insert the selected text into. what it sends to chat G b T, which makes it very seamless to like, if you wanna reply to an email, you like highlight the text that someone sent you, you bring it up, you hit reply positive or reply negative, and it will write your, your email response for you.
[01:07:44] Brett: And then you can, uh, click it and paste it into your email program. And it, it, because it’s a Mac os uh, accessibility application, it works in any app that has accessibility features. [01:08:00] Um, and, and it’s, I think it’s really well done. I think he deserves, uh, a little more traffic than he may be getting
[01:08:06] Christina: Fantastic. Fantastic. So my pick of the week, so this is something that I did yesterday, um, and, and I need to play around. Some of these a little bit more, um, I’ll have a couple things linked, but I’ve been playing around with, um, with, with, with Pam, um, modules, um, which is like Apple’s um, authentication system so that, you know, there’s a way where you can add like pseudo to with, with touch ID support to your terminal.
[01:08:31] Christina: There’s like a brew command that you can install and that’ll even like monitor whether the pam, um, uh, file has been updated or not. Um, but uh, I finally got app, my Apple Watch working on my, on my imax so that I could use that for, for, for pseudo. But, but I found out somebody was one of my followers on, on, um, Macon was like, I like that, but I can’t use both touch ID and Apple Watch at the same time.
[01:08:55] Christina: And so someone created a PAM module [01:09:00] that adds watch authentication in addition to touch id. So if you have both and, and, and like you wanna, for instance, use watch when your, uh, the lid on your, on your MacBook is closed, you can do that. So, um, So if you, you have a watch paired your Mac or fingerprints enrolled for unlocking, you can use the module to authenticate both of them.
[01:09:18] Christina: And so this is called, uh, pam underscore w t i d. And uh, it is, um, a patch on, um, an existing module, um, to, to be able to add support for both. Anyway, the, the, the GitHub, um, the guy goes through all the details of all the different things that he looked at. And how he ended up having to do what he did.
[01:09:41] Christina: There’s some, there’s a thing in the GitHub issue that it might have some issues on Ventura. I have not played with that aspect yet, but I feel like we could probably find a way to fix this. Um, but I’ll, I’ll have a couple of these pan modules in, uh, in, in, in the links. But the, this one, um, the, the W T I D that does [01:10:00] both is really good.
[01:10:00] Christina: That’s not the one I installed. I installed the original Apple Watch one, which, um, does work on, on, um, uh, apple silicon. But you need to, you need to update the make file, which, and, and, and the, the, the developer has been MIA on GitHub for over a year. So,
[01:10:18] Christina: So that one, somebody’s created a fork and like I could create a fork too.
[01:10:21] Christina: What I’m trying to see if I could do is if I can get this, this, this Pam W T I D thing working correctly, I’ll submit a pass to them of course, but I might just fork my own. I would love to like have it so that, um, do do the same thing that, um, uh, the, the version that is, uh, updates that’s installed and um, via home brew and they auto checks, um, with any update to, to automatically update like it’s just a bash script of the runs and will automatically update, uh, when you install new versions of, of, of Mac Os.
[01:10:50] Christina: I’ll, I’ll see if I can like basically hack together like a Frankenstein, uh, thing that we’ll do all of those things. So,
[01:10:56] Brett: Here’s some weirdness. I, I, I don’t [01:11:00] know if, if it’s related to my messing around. The PAM authentication system. But if I use pseudo in, I term it, any pseudo command will crash. I term immediately Pseudo, anything pseudo minus says pseudo any command immediate crash. And no. And I’ve sent the crash logs to them.
[01:11:27] Brett: I haven’t gotten a response. Uh, but if I do the same thing in terminal, no
[01:11:33] Christina: fine.
[01:11:33] Brett: It’s fine.
[01:11:34] Christina: Interesting. So what I would, what I would be curious about would be when the next, like when, when you have another Mac OS version, which will reset that entire directory, I would be curious if that fixes the problem. So like, before I would run one of those commands again, I, I would be curious if that fixes the problem.
[01:11:55] Brett: I have an, I have an update waiting for me. It’s a disappoint update [01:12:00] of Ventura, uh, which I don’t think we’ll reset it, but, but I also, like, I I, I removed all the PAN modules I had installed,
[01:12:09] Christina: Right. But,
[01:12:10] Brett: still
[01:12:11] Christina: and it still.
[01:12:11] Brett: be completely unrelated.
[01:12:13] Christina: It might be unrelated, but Yeah. But it is your pseudo file back to what it was originally.
[01:12:18] Brett: Yeah,
[01:12:19] Brett: yeah. Removed. Removed all references to any additional authentication methods. Uh, it, it’s still, I, I can’t explain it. I don’t know why that, I don’t know what happens when you create a, when you run a pseudo command that could possibly crash an app. Like I could see the, the command failing. I could see errors in the shell, but to crash the app, I don’t understand how that could happen.
[01:12:48] Christina: Yeah. That’s weird. I’m not sure either. Um, yeah, I don’t know. Um, that could be a lot of things that, oh, that is the one thing I will say. If you’re playing around with these things, make sure you back. [01:13:00] Your, uh, your, your pseudo file, because I did make a mistake, boy that I had like a wrong character or something in mine, and then all of a sudden, like pseudo was broken and I was able to just, uh, fuck with a permissions and, and finder of all places
[01:13:12] Brett: Yeah. Cuz you can’t edit your pseudo file without pseudo, it’s kind of a catch
[01:13:16] Brett: 22 there.
[01:13:18] Christina: Except if you go to go to folder and you go to find it and find her and then you like adjust, like you unlock it and then you, you know, adjust just, just the rewrite permissions or whatever. Like it’s, it’s you, you can do it. Um, I mean, I also could have start restarted in recovery mode, um, and had a route, but, but I was, I didn’t wanna like restart my computer.
[01:13:34] Christina: I was like, I actually still have five thou thousand tabs open. I’m doing other things. I don’t have time for this. Um, so I was able to get around it, but I was like, oh, okay. This is why the, the one that has the, the home brew auto update thing, this is why they do like a a, they make a a dot back of your, of your pseudo file.
[01:13:50] Christina: I was like, that’s smart. That’s what I should have done. Can’t say that I didn’t do this to myself, that I didn’t know what I was doing. But if you are gonna be playing around with these pan modules, Yeah, make sure you have [01:14:00] backups, um, because otherwise you could, yeah, then you can’t edit pseudo, uh, you know, you can’t use pseudo without pseudo and uh, and that’s not great.
[01:14:10] Christina: So, um, but, but it’s fun. And I do have to say like, so cuz I, so I have, um, two apple silicon machines. And I love them and they’re great, but my iMac is still really, really powerful. And I’ve got like the, the, the two screens. I mean, I, I also connect the, the, the, um, uh, studio display to my laptop sometimes.
[01:14:29] Christina: But like in my office, like I have like my big like 27 inch iMac and I’ve got, you know, the studio display and like the Zac has 128 gigs of RI and, you know, a 10 core, you know, like beefy intel cpu and a really, really good, uh, gpu. Like it’s in a lot of ways still better than, uh, for, for some purposes, especially with, you know, VMs and stuff than, uh, than even using my apple silicon stuff.
[01:14:53] Christina: Even if it, like, the fans come on and it’s, it’s not silent. So what, but what’s annoying is [01:15:00] that even though it has a secure enclave, um, you can’t use the touch ID keyboard with it, which is, which is completely an arbitrary Apple decision. They absolutely could have done that because Touch ID was on Intel Max first.
[01:15:13] Christina: And so if you’ve got the secure enclave. Which this one does. You know, there should be no reason why you can’t have the touch ID third party keyboard, but you can’t. Um, and so it’s really annoying for me to have to type a password in all the time when passwords, um, uh, account is, is pretty good. Uh, oh, I will give a shout out to Okta.
[01:15:36] Christina: This is, sorry, we’re just talking about authentication stuff cuz this is annoying to me. Okta now supports PAs keys, at least my instance does, which is great because if, when you’re logging in, if you don’t wanna have to reach around the back of your computer to find your, um, your UBI key, or if your UBI key, your, your, your secondary one is like in a bag of someplace and you’re like, man, I really don’t wanna fuck with this right now.
[01:15:58] Christina: If you set up, um, [01:16:00] uh, in, in your Okta settings, you can set up, uh, your, your phone as like, uh, a PAs key and then you can just scan the QR code on another machine and then on your iPhone it’ll come up and be like, do you wanna use the PAs key that is saved to this account to log in? I’m like, yes, yes, I do.
[01:16:15] Christina: Brilliant. So, so Pass Keys are great across platform and they’re supported by all the different, um, uh, big, you know, Microsoft, Google, apple, uh, it’s a consortium that came together for them and the, the, um, the Okta support really handy. Also, if you’re trying to like, look at ways to have to avoid typing in your password as many times as, as I do when you’re on an Intel Mac if, or I guess if you were on like a, you know, like a a Mac Studio or Mac Mini Apple, Silicon One, and you, you didn’t wanna pay for the, the Apple Touch ID keyboard because you’re like, I actually want a keyboard that feels good and, and, and you don’t wanna do it.
[01:16:53] Christina: What, what Jason Snell did, which was like, cut it, cut it up to like find a way to, you know, get, get, get the sensor [01:17:00] into a, a normal
[01:17:00] Brett: I, I would love, I would love a touch id sensor on my ultimate hacking keyboard, but I’m not gonna, I’m not gonna switch keyboards just for the touch Id.
[01:17:10] Christina: Absolutely. And that’s the thing,
[01:17:11] Brett: even though I hate using my watch, cuz right now during the winter, I always have long sleeves on. So I’ve got my fingers on the home row. A a prompt comes up, I have to pull my hands up the keyboard, pull back my sleeve, and then I wear my watch backwards for various and sundry reasons.
[01:17:29] Brett: But that means I have to like, grasp my watch from the right and then carefully double tap the button on the left because if I hit the wrong button, it’ll dismiss the password prompt. It’s kind of a pain in the ass. And I would rather, I think in most cases, so I use, I use key bindings. Don’t tell anyone this, this is secret, but I use key bindings and I have a, I have a sequence.
[01:17:55] Brett: If I type a certain sequence of keys, it fills in my system password.
[01:17:59] Christina: [01:18:00] smart. Oh, I should do that.
[01:18:02] Brett: and it’s, it’s a complex sequence. It like, You’d have to, you, you would have to be me to
[01:18:07] Christina: I was gonna say, you have to be in your brain.
[01:18:09] Brett: you would never guess it. But it’s way shorter than typing my system password. Um,
[01:18:14] Jeffrey: You know, who wears their watch backwards?
[01:18:16] Brett: my dad
[01:18:17] Jeffrey: Snipers,
[01:18:18] Christina: Huh.
[01:18:21] Brett: I, I do it because in yoga, uh, if I go into like a downdog or anything on my, where my palm is on the ground, bent backwards, it will hit the button on my watch and will set, set off the emer, the sos alarm,
[01:18:40] Christina: Oh, very bad.
[01:18:42] Brett: to people in a yoga
[01:18:43] Brett: class.
[01:18:44] Jeffrey: wear it backwards like that. So it’s not that the face is, um,
[01:18:47] Brett: I just, so, so that the crown, the crown and the button are on the
[01:18:51] Christina: Got it. Got it. Okay. Now I do have a question for you. Are, are you, um, a, a, a right wrist or a left wrist watch person?
[01:18:58] Brett: Left w left
[01:18:59] Christina: Same. [01:19:00] Uh, Jeff?
[01:19:01] Jeffrey: Same.
[01:19:02] Christina: Left wrist? Yep.
[01:19:04] Brett: Who, what,
[01:19:05] Brett: what, what, Right-handed person. Yeah. I can’t imagine wearing a watch on my right
[01:19:11] Christina: I can’t either. Uh, it would be weird and, and I assume it’s because we’re all right-handed, but I don’t know. Um, I did have to at, uh, when I went to Disney World, um, I got there, there were stupid magic band things, which are not stupid. I mean, it was, you know, uh, we, I, I, I bullied my, my, my two friends into both buying magic bands.
[01:19:29] Christina: I was as disappointed that mine, which was still over. Was just purple. Whereas they had like really like terrible like kind of themed ones. But the thing is, is that you could do most of what you could do with the Magic band, with your Apple watch, but not everything. And like the magic band was great cuz like, we get you into the hotel room and like if you, if we’d chosen to do this, we could even hooked up like a credit card to it.
[01:19:50] Christina: But it was like great for like, you know, getting into the, into the rise and like, uh, uh, I, I stupidly bought the photo pack, like where the photographers will take all [01:20:00] the pictures for you. And it was like $200, but I got my money’s worth. I I, I did the math and I was like, this is how many photos we have to take for this to be worth it.
[01:20:07] Christina: And we more than did that. I was like, good. But like, but I had like, but it’s basically the same size as Apple Watch. So like my Apple watch on on one wrist and then I have like the magic band on the other and it was so weird having something on my right wrist. Um,
[01:20:20] Jeffrey: I bet. Yeah.
[01:20:22] Christina: I had to use the kid size, um, of, of, of the, the magic band thing.
[01:20:26] Christina: Like, like genuinely, like it was one of those things, like they’ve got like a longer band, like it’s clearly for adults and then like you have to rip that part of it off the kid size. It was like, oh yeah, I, I’ve always said I have childlike wrist, but now this is proof cuz I’m, I’m only halfway through like this, this, this thing.
[01:20:41] Christina: Like, I, there’s no way I even could have a approached, like the adult one. I’m like, I’m like, I’m like halfway through the kid thing. I’m like, yep. Cool. that was also just a random tangent, but, but, uh, but, but, but Pam w uh, t i d and I’ll have some other, um, of the, the modules linked because they’re, uh, this is [01:21:00] like a fun thing to, to play with and potentially bork your system.
[01:21:02] Christina: So again,
[01:21:03] Brett: Yeah, totally.
[01:21:04] Brett: It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s amazing when it works and at worst it’ll just break your system. It’ll be fun,
[01:21:13] Jeffrey: Uh, that’s awesome.
[01:21:14] Brett: All right, so just a quick recap of all the things we didn’t talk about today. We, we didn’t talk about TikTok and acquisitions. We didn’t talk about G P T four or Bard or ai. We didn’t talk about how Samsung is full of shit from Moom picks to foldable phones. Um, and we didn’t talk about the post office.
[01:21:34] Brett: These are all things that may come up in the next episode. So stay tuned.
[01:21:38] Jeffrey: Not euthanasia.
[01:21:39] Christina: Not
[01:21:40] Brett: Not, no, we’re prob probably
[01:21:43] Jeffrey: You know what? Let’s, let’s go, let’s go straight from euthanasia to get some sleep.
[01:21:48] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say, uh,
[01:21:50] Jeffrey: but not eternal rest.
[01:21:52] Brett: Get some sleep.
[01:21:54] Outro: The.[01:22:00]
Brett and Jeff fend for themselves as the conversation turns to microdosing, extensible software, Electron woes, and technology past and present.
Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired.
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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptElegantly Extensible
[00:00:00] Jeff: Hello, you are listening to the Overtired podcast. I am Jeff Severance Gunzel, and I am here with Brett Terpstra. Christina is away this week. Hello, Brett.
[00:00:17] Brett: Hello, Jeff. Um, I had a dream. Last night that we had already recorded, or like I, we did, we did the recording in my dream. Uh, so I have already spent in dream time. I have already spent an hour talking to you, um, in, in which almost everything that could go wrong did go wrong. There were crashes and restarts and like we started, and I forgot to say who was doing the intro.
[00:00:43] Brett: So there’s this whole like, garbled thing at the beginning and then I swore I swore right away because I recently read that. Uh, and it doesn’t matter for us cause we don’t monetize on YouTube. But on YouTube, if you drop the F-bomb in the first 15 seconds [00:01:00] of your video, according to the new profanity rules, you get demonetized.
[00:01:06] Jeff: Wow.
[00:01:07] Brett: And you can, you can use the FBO after that. Um, as long as it’s not, I can’t remember how they phrase it, but like, it was like, don’t do it too much. Um, and don’t put it in your screenshots, your, like your thumbnail image. Um, there’s all these new profanity rules, but they’re actually laxer than what they had before.
[00:01:27] Brett: Now, now you can say the FBO and still get partially monetized. Anyway, like that was on my mind. So in the dream
[00:01:35] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:01:36] Brett: dream, I was intentionally not swearing.
[00:01:39] Jeff: That’s amazing,
[00:01:40] Brett: Yeah.
[00:01:42] Jeff: Well, it’s too bad we can’t access that file somehow.
[00:01:44] Brett: I know. We could save a lot of time.
[00:01:46] Jeff: We could,
[00:01:47] Brett: Have a real, really trippy episode. It was, it got weird. It got weird.
[00:01:53] Jeff: Well, let’s see what happens in, uh, in real life.
[00:01:56] Mental Health Corner
[00:01:56] Brett: Yeah. So, uh, so we’re gonna [00:02:00] reinstate after a couple weeks off, uh, the mental health corner. Would you like, would you like to kick off the, the season? We should start season four soon. Um,
[00:02:12] Jeff: Season three was like five episodes.
[00:02:14] Brett: was it, I thought it was like 20, it was 20 episodes. We’re on, this
[00:02:18] Jeff: Really? Oh yeah. It’s three 20. Oh my God. See, this’ll, this ties into my mental health check-in
[00:02:23] Brett: All right. Go for it.
[00:02:25] Jeff: Um, I don’t know. I think it’s just that I’m trying to do too much, but my sense of space and time is really messed up. Like it wasn’t good to begin with, but I’ll be in a conversation.
[00:02:39] Jeff: It was just in a conversation with my wife actually. I was like, well, we talked about that on Friday. She’s like, eh, it was Monday. I was like, oh, Uhhuh. Okay. Got it. And that’s not just being like a stupid sitcom husband. It’s like . It’s like,
[00:02:51] Brett: mean that’s, that’s a common ADHD symptom, like time dilation and, yeah.
[00:02:58] Jeff: But it’s, it, it’s been really, [00:03:00] really hard the last couple weeks. I mean, um, and I think it is, I’m trying to do too much. I’m doing a lot in the house. I’m doing a lot at work. Um, there’s a lot of sort of, at work, especially, I’m wrapping up a five year project, which is gonna take a few months, but it’s like, there’s just a lot of feelings around that.
[00:03:19] Jeff: Um, and just a lot of work around that. I took on a new role in our, um, I’m, I’m a member owner of a, of a research, uh, cooperative, uh, a research firm that focuses on, um, mostly on social justice efforts, essentially. So organizations that have social justice at their focus, we do research and evaluation for them.
[00:03:40] Jeff: And so I’m, I also took on a new role, um, on, on the board and with our organization. And so, I don’t know, man, I just, uh, I’m, I’m, I’m daily noticing myself kind of failing to, um, Remember things that it’s kind of unbelievable. I failed to remember. Um, and, and [00:04:00] despite having notes or whatever else it is, I mean, I just, I can’t, I’ve never been able to fully explain it.
[00:04:04] Jeff: They do describe it as an A D H D symptom. Um, I just, it, it doesn’t, even, even with that, it doesn’t seem like, it seems like I should be able to, um, get on top of it. It seems like I should be able to systematize it, but I’ve, I, I’m not sure that for me, I believe in the longevity of systems anymore. Um, and I am, I am constant evidence of that from my life.
[00:04:30] Brett: So like what, is there anything historically that has worked for you to stay on top of these things that, that rationally seem like you just shouldn’t forget, but you do?
[00:04:41] Jeff: I mean, my calendar works pretty, pretty well for me. Uh, it’s just that one of the things that can happen is, uh, I can look at my calendar in the morning and have forgotten most of it, um, by lunchtime, you
[00:04:53] Brett: I do the same I do.
[00:04:55] Jeff: Uh, and, and that just, it makes me crazy. So, like what I used to do, the two things that have [00:05:00] worked, two things that have worked for me is to just grab a note card and write out my schedule in the morning.
[00:05:07] Jeff: Um, sometimes then I never have to refer to it and I, and otherwise I have like a little reference card next to
[00:05:12] Brett: just the act of writing embeds it better in your brain,
[00:05:16] Jeff: Yeah. And then when I had jobs that were, when I’ve had jobs that were more. That lent themselves more to daily routines. Um, I, I would, I remember when I, I was a editor at Reader Magazine and I handled our website and I would just have a, a handwritten checklist that I photocopied that just had the things that I needed to, you know, uh, check or do that day and, and, and I could kind of look over a week’s worth of those and be able to see what I missed and what I did and whatever the , since we’re talking about it, the other thing that has worked really well for me, and maybe this is the other thing I need to do, is, I mean, I, what part of, I mean why, why what I’m describing can be so [00:06:00] bad?
[00:06:00] Jeff: Is it. Is that I work with other people, right? Like there are people that are depending on hearing from me or, um, that I’m waiting on something from, or whatever it is. And I have found in my life that if I, if I forget to stay engaged with people, even just a back and forth, maybe by text or whatever it, people quickly fall into the background.
[00:06:28] Jeff: Um, the world outside my four walls, this office I’m in now quickly falls into the background because I’m just. I’m just so focused on whatever’s right in front of me and sort of triaging or whatever else. Right. Um, but anyway, one thing I used to do, I used to have this, I should I say used to, I’ve actually probably brought it, uh, I, I’ve re I’ve resurrected it several times in life, a daily, um, template for, um, for kind of how to stay engaged.
[00:06:59] Jeff: And [00:07:00] one of the things I would do every day is just I would list three people that it would be good if I got in contact with, whether it was an email or a text or a phone call or whatever, people that are waiting to hear from me. Right. Um, and if I didn’t have three people waiting to hear from me, maybe I had one waiting to hear from me, I’d, I’d pick two that I know it’d be good to be in touch
[00:07:19] Brett: Is this both? Both professional and personal or one or
[00:07:23] Jeff: Professional and personal, definitely. And then the next bit would be, um, who am I waiting for stuff from? Because that also just falls into the background after a while. And so anyway, I mean, I, you know, if, uh, if listening to this in the future because I am applying for a job, I’d just rather you just, you know, move forward to the next part of the podcast.
[00:07:42] Jeff: But , like, cause this is my own business. Goddamnit , but I’m just in that space right now. And I’m, and the interesting thing is I’m also in a really productive space. So it’s not just like, I’m like, I have been in the past. I’m not just lost in the [00:08:00] wilderness of all the things. Right? Um, I’m actually getting a lot done, but it’s like, woo, it’s, uh, the brain.
[00:08:07] Jeff: I need like a serious memory upgrade. I need like, uh, I think these new MacBooks. My new macro pro. I don’t think I met like 60 or something like that. That’s what I need No more of this 18, uh, gigabyte business
[00:08:23] Brett: Yeah.
[00:08:24] Jeff: anyway.
[00:08:25] Brett: as you know, I’ve spent a good portion of my life developing tools to help me with exactly the stuff you’re talking about, and honestly, I’ve never found a perfect system that I stick with. Um, like OmniFocus is great if you get into a habit and you have a daily review and you’re actually curating.
[00:08:46] Brett: Like if you just let let your inbox pile up and never file anything, it doesn’t do any good. And if you file, file everything, but don’t review it, it doesn’t do any good. Uh, because like the whole point is to get it out of [00:09:00] your head into someplace you trust, right? Like basic G T D stuff. Um, but if you. Get it out of your head and then forget about it, then you’ve actually done worse than just trying to remember everything you have to do.
[00:09:15] Jeff: Yes,
[00:09:17] Brett: well, I, so I guess this leads into my mental health corner. Um, I had a one day manic episode, uh, just a few days ago, and like I, I woke up at like 11:00 PM I went to bed at nine, woke up at 11. Just immediately knew I wasn’t gonna fall back asleep. Um, I stayed in bed for like three hours anyway, just completely awake.
[00:09:46] Brett: Um, and when it eventually drove me nuts, I went downstairs and did my usual thing, started coding, uh, wrote, wrote a bunch of code, um, and then crashed like that during the day. The [00:10:00] next day I just, I could feel it, I could feel it end, and I slept for the next two nights. I slept great. Last night was a bit of a rough night, but not like a manic night.
[00:10:10] Brett: Um, and. The thing is, without all the tools I’ve built, I would have no idea what happened that manic night like I do. I do not consciously remember because I had two really good nights of sleep. Um, it like cleared my brain of all the stuff I was obsessively working on. Um, and if it weren’t for like doing, which, uh, I have, I have it set up so that anytime I make a get commit, um, I have a, a default hook that gets initialized with any new Git repository.
[00:10:44] Brett: So anytime I start a project, I initialize git repository and there’s a gi commit hook that once it saves the commit message, it adds it as an entry in my doing file. So simply by. Committing, [00:11:00] which is, you know, like I, I have a good habit of committing every change. Uh, simply by committing within a project, I create a, a record that I can easily, easily pull up and say, here’s what I was doing.
[00:11:12] Brett: And when I realize I’m manic, I add a default tag to my config file. So anything that gets, anything that gets added to my doing file during that period gets a tag manic. Um, and then when it’s over, I remove that tag. And that means that I can just write doing show manic and it will show me everything that I did when I was manic.
[00:11:39] Brett: And I can plot that out. I can use the timeline output and actually see like a, a JavaScript of like a view based time.
[00:11:46] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:11:47] Brett: my mania, and I can see exactly like when I was manic, what I accomplished while I was manic, how long it lasted. Uh, and this last one was less than 24 hours, which is just weird. [00:12:00] Like I’ve never had, never had a mania that lasted less than three days.
[00:12:04] Brett: Um, and it, it hasn’t been followed by any major depression. I want to talk to my shrink about microdosing.
[00:12:13] Jeff: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:12:15] Brett: I’m, I’m really excited about the possibility, like I don’t know if there are drug interaction concerns, uh, with things like psilocybin and L s D, but from the results I’ve seen and I have friends, like I went to a , I went to a 70 year old trans woman’s poetry reading on Friday and no on Thursday night.
[00:12:40] Brett: And, uh, The crowd was mostly also 70 year old people, and the guy who introduced her was like misgendered her left and right in his introduction. It was, it was very uncomfortable to be there. But I met up with a queer [00:13:00] studies professor. Um, and halfway through the thing she tells me, uh, that she’s on mushrooms.
[00:13:06] Brett: Um, because she had been dealing with some major depression and a friend had, uh, convinced her to try microdosing. Um, and that night I think she might have macro dosed, but she said that, like she said,
[00:13:22] Jeff: tried macro dosing
[00:13:26] Brett: she, she said that like, just like tiny bits of a psilocybin. Um, did wonders to get her out of bed into the world. Um, feeling alert and, and bright-eyed and hopeful. And I like, cause we’ve talked many times about how I feel like my version of bipolar stable is actually leaning towards depression. Uh, like, like as long as I’m sleeping, I consider myself in good shape, but I also [00:14:00] do not enjoy life much during those periods.
[00:14:03] Brett: Um, and I really, I think, and I can’t because of the bipolar, I can’t medicate the depression effectively. Uh, because any good antidepressant will just make me manic. Um, so I have to use these things like Lamictal that have antidepressant qualities.
[00:14:24] Jeff: about that. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:25] Brett: Like it has qualities, but it’s not an antidepressant. Um, and, and, and honestly, my A D H D meds increase dopamine, um, and, and make me and, and help with serotonin production.
[00:14:40] Brett: So that aids a little bit, but once I’m depressed, it’s so weird when I’m manic one A D H D pill, uh, in my case, Vivance right now, um, will, it shoots me through the roof. I’m like just, just super focused coding, [00:15:00] writing, uh, like social, like it’s amazing what it does. And then when I’m depressed, it doesn’t do jack.
[00:15:08] Brett: Like I can take it and I don’t even notice like a difference.
[00:15:13] Jeff: It’s not like the classic up upper downer
[00:15:15] Brett: Right. No, the depression can override the A D H D meds, which is, uh, it’s kind of frustrating, but, uh, anyway, yeah, I’m, I, I really wanna look into microdosing. I spent like a year of my life tripping balls. Um, got really into, uh, like D M X and acid and, uh, mushrooms and actually started dealing mushrooms.
[00:15:41] Brett: Um, I had a dealer that would like front me a pound at a time, and I would just like sell it to college kids. Um,
[00:15:49] Jeff: Like college kids where?
[00:15:50] Brett: uh, m a
[00:15:51] Jeff: Oh, mcad. The art school. Yeah. Right.
[00:15:53] Brett: Yeah. And I was just tripping the whole time and got, I got really kind of good at [00:16:00] like, tripping and, and like maintaining a good trip and, and getting used to navigating the world.
[00:16:08] Brett: In a hallucinogenic state, um, which isn’t because I could never smoke weed like I’m allergic to T h c. Um, so like I didn’t have a lot of experience with any kind of hallucinogenic until I get into that stuff. Um, but what I’m saying is microdosing, which is not, you know, you don’t trip you, you’re not like hallucinating.
[00:16:33] Brett: I think I, I think I could navigate it. Fine. I think I’d be good at it.
[00:16:37] Jeff: Yeah. I have the Michael Poll book sitting on my bookshelf about the various uses of psychedelics. Um,
[00:16:46] Brett: What’s it called? I’ll add it to the show notes.
[00:16:49] Jeff: Oh God, it’s, uh, I’ll have to, I’ll have to search it, but I, for some reason, this is one of the things, my brain is just not holding
[00:16:56] Brett: I, I, I added a poorly spelled note to the show notes. You can flush [00:17:00] it out when you have time. Um,
[00:17:02] Jeff: Um, you know, when you were talking about doing, um, I, which I’ve used, I mean, I love doing, like doing is one of the things, like I could tell you, I could sit down, I forget, tell you, I could sit down and, and map out the perfect system for me, right. Like, and the elements and the tools and everything.
[00:17:20] Jeff: What’s too, what’s like, not too much and not too little and, you know, um, but my ability to stay with it is a whole different story. Anyway, I think two episodes ago, our first question, uh, our first big like question episode, right? You had asked about input devices, like the dream input device, and I, I said somehow it would involve drumming, and I realized that like what I, what I would love is like, To be able to, like my entry in doing would be triggered by like the end of a song drum thing, like, right.
[00:17:53] Jeff: And then it pops up. It’s like, what were you doing? Oh, thanks for asking. I was just, you know, and I’m just finishing now. Thank you. And then I count it off. I [00:18:00] count off the next one. Right. Like,
[00:18:02] Brett: Yeah.
[00:18:04] Jeff: that would be perfect. Just perfect. But I wanna say that like, um, I, I’m in a stage of kind of being hard on myself about not being able to kind of hold with a system.
[00:18:14] Jeff: But I remember, um, I had a therapist once and I was describing kind of this very thing where it’s like, I imagine I’m walking on a berm, you know, and it’s like I could fall down on either side. Um, I’ll walk on that berm for a couple weeks and then I’ll, I’ll trip and fall, right? And, and if I’m not doing well, I’ll just walk down where I fell.
[00:18:34] Jeff: I won’t try to climb back up on the berm, right. But if I’m doing well, I’ll work to climb back on the berm. And I don’t know how long I’m gonna last up there, but like, at least I went back up and she, she kind of affirmed that, you know, what’s really important in this case is, you know, how to, she put it really nicely.
[00:18:50] Jeff: You know how to call yourself back, essentially. And I, I, I find that I, I put emphasis when I’m, when I’m really conscious of it, which I will be, now that I’ve [00:19:00] said it here, I put emphasis on can I call myself back more than what have I sustained? Right? Um, and that seems to me far more. , um, realistic as a human being and, and as an expectation of myself as a human being.
[00:19:17] Jeff: doing like knowledge work and all this other stuff. So anyway, I just wanted to add to that at the end little, so I’m not just being hard on myself. I forget to not be hard on myself.
[00:19:26] Brett: Uh, doing was actually one of the things I worked on when I was manic. Um, so I have been in the habit recently of adding plugin architectures to all of my tools. Um, so they can be easily extended, uh, if, you know, whatever language I happen to have written it in. Um, it’s not like text mate where you can like write extensions in any language, but, but like doing, uh, with just some basic Ruby school skills, you can add new [00:20:00] features to it.
[00:20:00] Brett: And, uh, someone asked me if they could output a view. By day where like everything was grouped by day in a table, um, and you could just like see kind of a calendar view of, of what you had done. And I was like, that is absolutely an export plugin. And uh, in about maybe 45 minutes, I wrote one page of code that now you can type dash o by day, uh, all one word by day, and it will, it’ll output an like a Nastys doc table of all of your, all of all.
[00:20:39] Brett: So you can combine it with any command. So like doing today or doing since or or doing, show any command that has output, you can just add dash O by day and, and it’ll output in that day format. And it just like, I’ve really been appreciating this. This [00:21:00] focus on plugin architecture, because even if no commu, no community, like evolves around it, even if you don’t have like an obsidian or notion or text make kind of community making extensions for you, just from a code maintainability perspective, uh, the ability to add features that are optional and are completely modular, and I didn’t have to go in and edit any of the core code to do it.
[00:21:30] Brett: I, I am, I, I I will moving forward. Always, always include a plug-in architecture, like marked kind of. You can use custom processors and you can write them in any language, but they’re, it’s also a little flaky. Like the best way to crash mark is to use a custom processor. Um,
[00:21:49] Jeff: Is that what you wrote in your iTunes review? Unmarked
[00:21:51] Brett: the best, the best and most consistent way to crash.
[00:21:54] Brett: Mark is the fuck up your. Your custom processor. It, it is, it [00:22:00] is not graceful when things go wrong, and I’ve tried to fix that, but like the idea is there, it’s extensible. Like you don’t want to use multi markdown or GitHub flavored markdown, add your own processor and use whatever you want. Um, so this isn’t like a new concept to me, but it is definitely something I’m trying to make, like an elegant part of anything I code.
[00:22:21] Brett: No.
[00:22:21] Jeff: I love that. And it actually speaks to something I’ve been meaning to bring up with you on the podcast, which is that in the last couple of weeks I’ve moved back completely to Envy Ultra for, I was using obsidian for some things and whatever, and, um, I just, I find. Uh, I find that the closer I can feel to my actual text files , um, the more comfortable I am and obviously Envy Alt is and was that, and Envy Al Ultra is that as well.
[00:22:52] Jeff: And what I had been doing was sort of using a single notes folder that Obsidian could act on and pull from. Right. [00:23:00] But also Envy Ultra. But I don’t, and this may just be, uh, like my own, like personality disorder or something, but like in the end, and you and I have talked about this when talking about sublime text versus vs code, like I find that I just feel more comfortable and, and I feel more of a flow when I feel super close to the text file itself.
[00:23:25] Jeff: So like if you’re the type of person that’s going to even go in the direction of text files, right? Like why not stay as close to those files as you can? Um,
[00:23:35] Brett: Well, the other, the other commonality there between sublime texts and uh, NV Ultra is, is operating system like being as close to the operating system as possible. Um, electron and obs, I mean, uh, obsidian and VS code are both electron and do not integrate fully with Mac os. Um, which is, [00:24:00] that’s for me, that’s why I prefer Sublime and NV Ultra, uh, just like right down to, uh, sublime less so than NV Ultra, but it uses real Mac OS components.
[00:24:13] Brett: And you’re, you’re like directly interfaced with the operating system.
[00:24:17] Jeff: And can you explain what electron is and why it doesn’t integrate fully with the operating system?
[00:24:24] Brett: Electron is a, a layer, uh, it’s a web-based. Layer, um, where you’re basically, I think mostly in node js, uh, but they build their own components that run within kind of, you could consider electron like, uh, an operating system layer, um, that provides all of the interaction between the components and everything.
[00:24:47] Brett: Uh, but they are not, a text field in Electron is actually a web field, um, like an H T M L field, not an os, like a Mac OS text [00:25:00] field. So things like system services are abstracted away from, from working the way they would in a cocoa text field, uh, and like an NS text field. Um, it’s, it, it provides a lot of flexibility, especially for developers who want to write cross-platform applications like an Electron app with very little effort can run on any operating system.
[00:25:26] Jeff: and is that the primary attraction to it and the reason for its popularity?
[00:25:31] Brett: For, yes, for among developers, yes. I mean, that is why you would make an Electron app is, is for cross platform availability. It also makes a lot of things easier. Like the, the things that VS Code can do, um, it can do more easily because of the electron kind of ecosystem around the functionality. Um, and what makes like VS code so popular is just the [00:26:00] sheer adaptation adoption, I mean, um, by users and the number of packages available and the amount of the extensibility of it.
[00:26:10] Brett: Um, it is easily. Five times what, uh, sublime taxes ever had available. It’s insane what
[00:26:19] Jeff: is
[00:26:20] Brett: extend it to do, but I just run into enough friction when I try to use it the way I want to use my I D e I run into enough little, like not being able to run system services, like it’s a big deal for me. It seems like a small thing, but I kinda rely on, on, on the text navigation, the custom key bindings and the system services that I’m used to having in any cocoa text field on any app on my Mac.
[00:26:49] Brett: And then suddenly they don’t work and it, it’s friction for me and it just sublime. Sublime has enough packages that do what I need to do. Um, I’m just [00:27:00] more comfortable in it.
[00:27:01] Jeff: Well, and when I get really drawn into obsidian, it is because of. It’s not just that there’s the shared number of plugins. Cause it is pretty incredible. There’s a woman who keeps a, um, who keeps a weekly, uh, who runs a weekly newsletter that always lists like, what’s new, what’s in the approvals. You know, I’m always like Jesus Christ.
[00:27:20] Jeff: Um, but I, I actually, the more, the more sort of plugin, the more plug-ins you have, the more plug-in like spam you have kind of, it’s, it’s like, and I forget this is what happened in obsidian. I was like, let me just really look at how I use obsidian. Do I really need obsidian for this? Because the other things I used to do, there are plug-ins to do this.
[00:27:40] Jeff: There are other ways of doing this that make me feel a little closer to the note. And I don’t know if that’s just me being artisanal
[00:27:46] Brett: the, the one thing obsidian does that I wish I could convince Fletcher to steal is backlinks.
[00:27:53] Jeff: Yep. Back links are good, although I like ’em better in Rome, but
[00:27:56] Brett: Sure. Like, like Envy Ultra [00:28:00] has wiki linking and you can, you can with auto completion add a Wiki link to another note. Uh, and it has somewhat of a back button feature. Like you can navigate backwards in history, so you can go back to the note you click from, but you can’t see what all notes link to your current note, and you can’t easily see any kind of graph of where the notes link together.
[00:28:24] Brett: Um, and that is, that is the one thing about obsidian, like I’m.
[00:28:28] Jeff: of fun.
[00:28:29] Brett: I’m like you, I, I prefer Envy Ultra and just being very close to my text files and just basically it serves as an interface to raw text, and that’s what I love about it. Um, obsidian abstracts that by one layer, it’s still a, a, a bucket of raw text, but it has, the thing with extensions and plugins is it’s very easy for me to add too many and no longer know why something’s happening, which is what I [00:29:00] always run into in VS code.
[00:29:01] Brett: The first thing I do is add, uh, you know, the recommended packages for say Ruby or Swift or Markdown. And, uh, I get a bunch of, a bunch of packages that I’ll provide different features and I no longer know. When I, when I experience a behavior, what caused it or why or where this keyboard shortcut is coming from, and I’ve never spent enough time with it to really get good at tracing that backwards.
[00:29:30] Jeff: Well, and there’s a relationship in a way to, so like if, I mean, I know I don’t speak just for myself here, but what, what is so attractive about text files for me, besides the future proof aspect of them, um, is that I don’t get distracted with, um, formatting, which I am just prone to do. Um, and if you happen to just naturally think a textile in markdown format looks beautiful, then you are a lucky, lucky, wonderful person.
[00:29:56] Jeff: And I am one of those people. And so for the same reason, [00:30:00] I don’t want to be in a bloat of formatting features. I don’t want to be in a bloat of plugins, you know, cuz that’s where I’ll go. Like, and, and with obsidian, some of those plugins, like the way you. Almost turn every sentence into a kind of data and then do data views.
[00:30:18] Jeff: Like that is stuff that causes you to alter how your text files are written. And, and I, that has never been worth it in the end for me. And I, and I often am super suspect of, of people who do their initial few obsidian videos right on YouTube. I, I would love to know what it actually looks like for them a month later, two months later, a year later.
[00:30:42] Jeff: It’s not, I’m not trying to be caddy, I just mean like, I wanna see the data generally, like how many people after they dive in and install their plugins and whatever, are still on the platform, right? Like, and, and with text files just used to something like Envy Ultra. That’s never something you would think about.
[00:30:59] Jeff: It’s like, this is just where my [00:31:00] notes are, you know? I mean, the thing I think about most is how poorly I’ve labeled my notes over the years,
[00:31:05] Brett: There. So I, I speak at, I speak at Max Sock pretty regularly. Um, not going to this year, but, um, There’s always at least one person that does a presentation on productivity, you know, of some kind. And one year it’ll be notion, and then one year it’ll be obsidian and like you’ll watch the same person do a deep dive on, on this new app that solves all the problems.
[00:31:34] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:31:35] Brett: the next year it’s something else. And the next year they’ve moved on. And, um, I think it’s really easy to get distracted by new shiny, um, and it’s really easy to recognize, to see the power in something, the possibilities,
[00:31:49] Jeff: It’s exciting.
[00:31:50] Brett: But, uh, when you really sit back and look at like, what’s the portability? If I use these new syntaxes and, and come to rely on this [00:32:00] data layer in this app, and then I wanna move to something else a year from now, uh, will all of this, will all of these systems that I built around it cease to function and it makes you, it makes you crave minimalism.
[00:32:16] Brett: It makes you, it makes what’s, what’s the bare minimum syntax I can add to this to accomplish what I actually need without being lured in by like, oh, but I could get the, I could get this special view if I use this like very specific syntax, that would be impossible to rejects out later.
[00:32:36] Jeff: Right, Yeah. And by red rejects out, you’re, you’re, you’re hitting the thing, right? It’s like, for me, if I go deep on something and change, essentially add a new syntax to my text files, it’s gonna be a year or two. But I’m gonna want to be writing a script that takes all that shit out,
[00:32:53] Brett: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:32:54] Jeff: and none of this is to like judge people who are excited about obsidian or anything.
[00:32:57] Jeff: It’s just, it helps me to kind of [00:33:00] explore my own. Like, I just find it, I, I don’t know why, you know, those of us who have such an intense draw towards text files and markdown and that stuff, I, I would love to know what is going on there beyond what we’re able to articulate. Right? Like, cuz it’s a type of person,
[00:33:18] Brett: Let, let, let me just, yeah. As a, as a, as a caveat, um, I, I think obsidian is amazing. I
[00:33:26] Jeff: it is.
[00:33:27] Brett: a really cool app with a lot of power, and even if you just used it at its bare minimum, um, it’s a great companion to Envy Ultra and potentially a complete replacement for NV Ultra. It’s a solid app.
[00:33:39] Brett: I’m not, I’m not, I’m not dissing it. There are, there are a couple of friction points for me, but I don’t begrudge anybody their love of obsidian. It’s a solid app.
[00:33:51] Jeff: Yep. My only issue with it is the way it changes how I behave and the way I behave because of it. It’s not, has nothing wrong with the app. I mean, it’s [00:34:00] cool and I actually love, I love communities that are just, just like popcorn popping plugins and, and ways to use it. I, I learned so much from that, but I just happen to be returning home right now.
[00:34:14] Jeff: That’s where I’m at on my journey.
[00:34:15] Brett: That’s actually, um, one of your, one of your interview questions that we may or may not get to was what was the first app or program that expanded your sense of what could be possible? And, and my answer to that would definitely feed into what we’re talking about right now, but I’m gonna take a quick sponsor break.
[00:34:34] Jeff: Okay. Sounds good.
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[00:34:58] Brett: Without collide, it [00:35:00] struggles to solve basic problems like keeping everyone’s OS and browser up to date. Unsecured devices are logging into your company’s apps because there’s nothing there to stop them. Collide is the only device trust solution that enforces compliance as part of authentication, and it’s built to work seamlessly with Okta.
[00:35:17] Brett: The moment collides agent detects a problem, it alerts the user and gets some instructions to fix it. If they don’t fix the problem within a set time, they’re blocked. Collide method means fewer support tickets, less frustration, and most importantly, 100% fleet compliance. Visit collide.com/ Overtired to learn more or book or book a demo.
[00:35:39] Brett: That’s K O L I D e.com/ Overtired.
[00:35:45] Promo Swap: The Nerd Room
[00:35:45] Jeff: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, I, I’ve got a podcast, uh, to talk about the nerd, the nerd room. Um, are you looking to get more out of your fandom experiences? Always. Uh, do you wish you had the time to keep up with all the [00:36:00] latest news and insights about your favorite film franchises? Generally, well then look no further than the Nerd Room Podcast, a weekly audio experience with deep dives into the latest news reviews and speculation from the worlds of Star Wars, Marvel, DC and beyond.
[00:36:19] Jeff: Whether you’re a casual fan or a diehard enthusiast, the Nerd Room has something for everyone. Plug into the Nerd Room podcast every Thursday on all major podcast platforms, and let them bring the nerd to you.
[00:36:32] Jeff: For more from the nerd room, head to the nerd room.net or use the hashtag hashtag We The nerd. Hashtag
[00:36:42] Brett: Hashtag with a nerd.
[00:36:44] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:36:45] A sense of wonder… in an app
[00:36:45] Brett: So, so do you want, do you wanna, do you want to dive into this question for a couple
[00:36:50] Jeff: Yeah, let’s do it.
[00:36:52] Brett: So the first app or program that expanded your sense of what could be, what can be possible or as a [00:37:00] user or a programmer? Uh, for me it’s both. It’s text mate. Um, so I, I, I didn’t start using a Mac until 2000.
[00:37:11] Brett: Um, I was always a PC Linux guy up until that point. Um, and then OS 10 came out and, and I got into it and I started, I learned a little Apple script, like I’d been using VB script and, and I learned Pascal and c and stuff before that. But like, apples script was a, a new beast that allowed me direct.
[00:37:32] Brett: Interaction with apps, and that was fun. Um, and then I, I, I heard about this text editor called Text Mate, and I downloaded it and I opened it up and it was like a blank screen with no buttons. And, and I didn’t, I didn’t know what to do and I quit it and went back to whatever editor I was using at the time and maybe BB edit and, and I didn’t think about it again for a few months.
[00:37:57] Brett: Um, and then someone pointed out like [00:38:00] how to do a certain thing using a bundle in TechMate. The plug-in architecture was called Bundles. And so I loaded it back up and, and I opened the bundle editor and I began to immediately see, How extensible it was and how it could be crafted and, and like the lack of buttons became, it was the first time that I had had, uh, an editor of any kind without a toolbar.
[00:38:26] Brett: Um, and cuz you know, I came from Windows in like Microsoft Word, uh, which is just overloaded with buttons. And, and I began to see the elegance of everything being keyboard based, everything being plugin based. Um, and that’s why I learned Ruby. Uh, my strongest language today is Ruby. And it is all because.
[00:38:50] Brett: The easiest way to extend TechMate was with Ruby, and I learned Ruby specifically to extend TechMate. Um, Ellen Agard, the, the [00:39:00] creator of TechMate, ran a mailing list and was just super helpful to newbies like me, um, who I would ask the dumbest questions and he would gently explain like, well, here’s where you went wrong.
[00:39:14] Brett: Here’s what you need to do, here’s how it would work. And, and he, he fostered the community, uh, which was very active, uh, for an app at the time. Uh, probably not to the extent that you see like obsidian and notion communities now, uh, but in its day, In the, in the early days of kind of extensible Mac software, uh, it was a, it was a vibrant community full of very helpful people.
[00:39:41] Brett: And like the mailing list was like, it was like Usenet just full of ideas and, and helpful tips. And that was, to me, it’s still the gold standard. Like it, it was a Mac app that literally gained its popularity on the [00:40:00] basis of its extending extend ex the community that was extending the application. Like he built, he built something that was very much designed for community involvement and it became, it became, uh, uh, cult status really.
[00:40:19] Brett: Um, if, if you, if you know, you know, like Text Mate was, was the original and yeah, it was fun to be a part of and it really opened my eyes.
[00:40:30] Jeff: That’s awesome. I, I, that was my first text editor, text mate. Um, and I was not, uh, writing plugins or bundles, but I sure used a lot of them
[00:40:40] Brett: Yeah.
[00:40:41] Jeff: I wasn’t happy to have to leave it. What happened? What happened to it
[00:40:46] Brett: Well, so Tate 2.0 was in Alpha for years and eventually he open sourced it and um, people got. Nervous because [00:41:00] it was never reaching a stable state. Um, and everyone just began to consider text mate kind of dead. Um, he did eventually release Text Mate 2.0, but at that point, at that point, like everyone had already started to move on and new editors had started to crap up and people’s loyalties, uh, had shifted.
[00:41:22] Brett: And I mean, there are still people who use TechMate and, and it’s still a solid editor. Um, but, uh, the, the, the arena was rife for new competitors and, and some, some text editors really stepped up. I mean, BB edit is still like, man, rich has never dropped the ball like
[00:41:44] Jeff: Oh, actually my first, my first text editor. What was the, what was the kind of light version of BB edit? Um,
[00:41:52] Jeff: Was it Text Wrangler?
[00:41:53] Brett: Yeah.
[00:41:54] Jeff: Yeah, text Wrangler. That’s right, that’s right. Um,
[00:41:58] Brett: scriptable [00:42:00] and just a good solid interface to the NS text field.
[00:42:04] Jeff: yes, totally that my, um, my first job, uh, editing a website, uh, the person who had created the, the website, you know, was like, here’s, here’s what you need to do to every post in Text Wrangler. And that was my first experience of having a text editor and, and realizing that like, there are these things that can do these things to text that aren’t word.
[00:42:25] Jeff: Um, don’t leave artifacts.
[00:42:28] Brett: The, the strength of both Text Wrangler and BB edit. Um, aside from, you know, script ability, which is like, I find BB edit script ability, uh, being all Apple Script based, uh, to be a little bit confining for, for like string string manipulation in Apple Script is a bitch. Um, but, uh, their real shining strength was the size of text files they could open, um, and not, [00:43:00] and not freeze.
[00:43:01] Brett: Like so many other text editors had this thing where if you opened a one megabyte text file, you were gonna crash it, or you were gonna spend a lot of time with a spinning beach ball waiting to scroll down a page.
[00:43:14] Jeff: yeah. I’ve always got, um, I’ve always got BB edit in my bag because like I’ll often open up a text file, it turns out to be way too much for sublime to handle, and I open it up BB edit, bb it’s like, what do you wanna do?
[00:43:26] Brett: Yep,
[00:43:27] Jeff: Um, which is great. I think for me, my, the, the app I’m thinking I’m gonna speak as a Mac user and I, I started using Max in 2002 and, um, When I was pointed to Quicksilver, um, the first like launcher slash you know, you can make compound requests into this thing with a keyboard shortcut pops up.
[00:43:53] Jeff: Um, just what I use Alfred for now, or what other people use Launch bar for and all that stuff. Um, when I [00:44:00] saw that there was a way to interact with apps and with files without having to be in a specific app or be looking at a specific file that. That was a paradigm shift for me, um, that I could actually operate my computer from this little line that pops up in a window rather than having to go in through nested folders or have to search through finder or have to, you know, all the different stuff it could do from how it interfaced with iTunes to how it interfaced with, you know, web browsers and, and, and search engines to how it interfaced with like, getting a file into an email, whatever.
[00:44:37] Jeff: Like I had no idea. because I had never used the command line or anything like that either, right? So I had no idea you could act on your computer without using sort of the gooey
[00:44:47] Brett: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:48] Jeff: in front of you. And that was amazing. And the dude was super mysterious. Like, I don’t think people knew who he was back in the day they do now.
[00:44:56] Jeff: Uh, I could be wrong, but like he was mysterious. The [00:45:00] icon was mysterious. Like everything about it was mysterious, including how it acted on my computer. So I just felt like I had something real special on my hands. Um, and of course, like when I think about using Alfred now, it’s like, it’s such a dominant part of my computing experience.
[00:45:17] Jeff: Um,
[00:45:18] Brett: Bar for me, but.
[00:45:19] Jeff: we just, we can just take it for granted. But when that thing came out, it was just like, you do what now?
[00:45:24] Brett: The, the only, the only reason I ever trigger Spotlight is to launch Launch Bar if it’s crashed.
[00:45:31] Jeff: Exactly. Oh yeah. I remember sometimes when Alfred crashes, I’m like, fuck, what do I do now?
[00:45:37] Brett: Yeah.
[00:45:37] Jeff: I remember.
[00:45:38] Brett: Yeah. No, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll use, uh, who to spot for all of my file searching and launch bar for all of my launching and file operations. Uh, Quicksilver was kind of in the same boat as text mate for me. Where it, it.
[00:45:55] Jeff: had a lot of plugins too.
[00:45:57] Brett: It was extensible and it, it [00:46:00] revealed a mode of operation that I never had in Windows. Um, there was no, there was no parallel for me in the, in the operating systems I was coming from.
[00:46:12] Brett: And like, I immediately latched onto Spotlight. Uh, it was one of the, the first cool things about the Mac. Um, and Spotlight has come a long way, uh, with Siri integration and, and filed previews and drag and drop and everything. It’s come a long way since like os ten first came out. Uh, but Quicksilver, like Quicksilver was amazing.
[00:46:36] Jeff: It was so amazing. It felt like having a superpower.
[00:46:39] Brett: It did. And, and, and the likes of Merlin man. Uh, were all about it. And I, I think, I think I actually got into following Merlin man because of, uh, his, his Quicksilver, uh, Posts and there
[00:46:57] Jeff: that in the 43 folders days? Yeah. [00:47:00] That’s how I learned about it too. And I didn’t know that was Merlin Mann. I didn’t know. I didn’t know from Merlin Mann, but I knew that site.
[00:47:05] Brett: Do you remember quicks? It was a, a bookmarklet that you could write like extensions to do all kinds of stuff with webpages. I think I, I think I learned about that from Merlin too. Als I learned, I learned about GTD from Merlin. He was, the reason I bought getting things done by David Allen was, was, uh, was Merlin Mann
[00:47:27] Jeff: It’s interesting. That was such a, I mean I guess it was such an exciting time because they had just left their old version of their O or operating system behind, and so it was just everybody playing. Like when did the first OS 10 or os OS nine is, is OS nine the end of the previous,
[00:47:45] Brett: yeah.
[00:47:45] Jeff: uh, operating system.
[00:47:47] Jeff: Okay, so when was the first OS
[00:47:49] Brett: I, I believe, I believe, uh, was it Tiger or Jaguar that came first. I think Tiger. I think Tiger was 2000,
[00:47:59] Jeff: [00:48:00] Okay, got it. Got it. Back when you had to go get it in a box.
[00:48:04] Brett: Yeah.
[00:48:07] Jeff: Grandpa
[00:48:08] Brett: Not, not, not a pile of three and a half inch floppy discs, but still in a box.
[00:48:13] Jeff: Exactly. Exactly.
[00:48:16] Brett: It was in the, in the age of CD ROMs at that point.
[00:48:19] Jeff: Oh, CD Rams. Man, what a mess.
[00:48:22] Brett: I used to, I used to archive everything, um, like everything from my email to my project files and everything on Burnable, CDRs,
[00:48:34] Jeff: Same.
[00:48:35] Brett: and then eventually, as, as D V D Rs became available, I started writing, but I just had you remember those like books of CDs like that you could get in, like in
[00:48:49] Jeff: have one. I have one in my basement full of backup CDs.
[00:48:52] Brett: Yeah, I have like dated books and like I, I had to create, I found apps that would [00:49:00] create indexes, searchable indexes of like a 12 CD set
[00:49:06] Jeff: Oh, that’s
[00:49:07] Brett: and then you could pop in one CD and use it to figure out which CD you needed to load. Um, but it was, it was a kind of messy system compared to the way I archived these days, but,
[00:49:19] Jeff: It was totally messy. It was totally messy. Like, I remember having to, like, if I was, if I was backing up my iTunes library, I would’ve to do it across like 10 CDs, right? Or my, or my photos library or whatever it was. So I actually, a, a couple years ago, worrying that I maybe had lost some of those early files, decided I was gonna put my, I had, uh, I had all my backup CDs in like, you know, the cd like Tube , that CDs came in.
[00:49:47] Jeff: Um, I, I kept them all in there, but then I was like, nah, I don’t like that. Cause I wanna make sure they’re, you know, they’re probably gonna last a good long while.
[00:49:53] Brett: you want ’em in archival quality sleeves.
[00:49:56] Jeff: So I got the big kind of book, you know, it’s like square and it’s [00:50:00] got four per page or whatever, and I put ’em all in and I took a paint marker and I labeled each slot and then I brought each one in and, and, and put it in a folder with the name of the, of the slot, um, as the first step. And then I went and organized the files.
[00:50:16] Jeff: But it was delightful. I, it was cool, man. I, they all worked. I think there was maybe one that was not working and that’s basically true of my three and a half inch disc too, which
[00:50:26] Brett: I love, I love, I love collecting, I love developing systems to maintain a collection That’s like a fetish for me,
[00:50:34] Jeff: totally man. Yeah,
[00:50:36] Brett: ever since, ever since my early days of rock collecting. Like I just love coming up with cataloging systems
[00:50:42] Jeff: It’s the best.
[00:50:43] Brett: yeah.
[00:50:44] Grapptitude
[00:50:44] Jeff: It’s the best. Well, I think we, this is a good flow into gratitude, even though it’s Ben gratitude
[00:50:50] Brett: yeah,
[00:50:52] Jeff: You wanna, you wanna give yours
[00:50:54] Brett: sure. Um, my pick this week is reject rx, [00:51:00] um, or as, as Jeff used to say, it rejects Rx
[00:51:04] Jeff: When we first started working together That’s right. I was like, it’s.
[00:51:10] Brett: Um, and, and, no, I don’t care if you say RegX or RegX. Uh, this isn’t a gift gif problem. Um, but it is a, it’s, there are a bunch of regular expression testers out there, patterns and oyster and, uh, there are websites designed for testing regular expressions. But I find rejects rx, despite it being like ugly, like Java app, ugly, um, it is the most effective.
[00:51:40] Brett: It handles the most different variants of. Regular expressions, um, because there are different, there are different standards that handle different, like character sets differently and everything. And it has this amazing feature where you can paste from and two different [00:52:00] languages. So if you have, if you’re working in JavaScript and you copy out your regular expression from your text editor and you use Paste as JavaScript, it will convert it into a more standard P C R E regular expression in the field.
[00:52:17] Brett: And then when you’re done testing and editing, you can do copy, copy, special, uh, JavaScript, and you can do it as a. Pattern or it can give you the full code for like, uh, a replacement and, and copy it right back into your editor. Um, it can do objective C, it can do uh, Java. It can do java script, it can do ruby, um, Python.
[00:52:44] Brett: Uh, it can create the code you need to turn a regular expression into, um, code you can use. And then as you, you give it like your test string and then you start working on your expression and it shows you like [00:53:00] all of, all of the captures and individual capture groups, um, either named or numbered, depending on how you write your regular expression.
[00:53:08] Brett: And it is just like the most complete, most usable, regular expression tester for me. I don’t remember how much it costs, but I do think it’s available on the app store. I’m gonna look that up.
[00:53:20] Jeff: That’s awesome. Sounds great. I wanna play with it. I love rejects apps.
[00:53:26] Brett: Who doesn’t
[00:53:27] Brett: 4 99? It’s 4 99.
[00:53:30] Jeff: Oh, it’s a sweet price.
[00:53:31] Brett: Yeah. Damn. Good deal.
[00:53:33] Jeff: Can I, um, so I have an app to talk about, but I also have, um, the theme is file navigation. Um, but I wanna recommend something a little life hack. So I’ve been going through, like I said at the beginning, like all these files from a five year project, um, which are sometimes mixed in with personal files a little bit, right?
[00:53:52] Jeff: And I have all these screenshots, like eight fucking million screenshots. And I finally realized what I can do is [00:54:00] I’ll just make a dedicated eye photos library, dump them all in there. I’ll be able to get rid of duplicates, and I can just quick browse them all, um, and, and decide what I want or just let it be.
[00:54:11] Jeff: And I really wanna recommend that It was a, it was actually really fun. I ended up discovering things that I’m really glad I made screen grabs of. Um, but anyway, so. A few or several or maybe a dozen or more episodes ago, you and I were talking about forklift versus Pathfinder and we had both fallen on the forklift side.
[00:54:32] Jeff: And I had told you, I go back and forth and I feel like that’ll happen forever. And I have, um, I have gone forth , um, or back to Pathfinder because I’ve been doing a ton of working with files and, and old archives and stuff of files. And you know what, it’s my current favorite. It, it, it is a little more. So what I found with forklift is when I started getting really, like spending a lot of time in the app, looking at files, comparing files, whatever else [00:55:00] that like it.
[00:55:01] Jeff: It was a little rigid for me, but Pathfinder, I don’t even use most of their, what do they call ’em? Like buttons or whatever. They have these like, almost like
[00:55:09] Brett: Uh, widgets or,
[00:55:10] Jeff: widgets or something. I don’t really use any of them, but I find that the way I can manipulate the finder environment inside a Pathfinder is, is just, it is, I guess what I need.
[00:55:20] Jeff: So I’ll let you know when I go back to forklift, but my gratitude today is, is Pathfinder, which like, you know, that’s it, it’s a big deal to have like a, a more powerful finder app that keeps getting better or stays alive at all. And, uh, and I, I just want to give props to the developers for that cuz they really keep it moving.
[00:55:42] Jeff: Um, and, and now I’m back in it. So. Hi Forklift. Forklift. I love you too though. That’s all I got.
[00:55:49] Brett: so in a part that has since been edited out previously, we, we did, we did mention pop clip. Um, and I, I wanted to tell you, [00:56:00] so a lot of the pop clip extensions I’ve written, and I have a whole collection, uh, linking pop clip extensions in the show notes. Um, um, so I have a whole bunch, but a lot of them use modifier keys to provide multiple actions.
[00:56:19] Brett: Like there’s a, a critic markup, Uh, extension that gives you like insert, delete, uh, comment highlight depending on which modifier key you hold down, when you trigger it.
[00:56:32] Jeff: I didn’t realize that.
[00:56:33] Brett: But it’s too much to remember and it drives me nuts because, uh, even having one alternate action, like, uh, the numbered list, um, extension does mark down numbered list cleanup and can convert like a bullet list to a numbered list, et cetera.
[00:56:50] Brett: And if you hold down option, it gives you a bullet list instead of a number list, and it’ll convert. Um, that one’s easy enough to remember, but you get these ones with multiple [00:57:00] modifier keys. It’s impossible to remember unless you’re using ’em every day. And, um, in a recent update to pop clip I’ve forgotten the Nick, had added this thing where holding down option key, like always gave you like a preview of the text and holding down shift, copied it to the clipboard,
[00:57:22] Jeff: did not know any of this.
[00:57:24] Brett: overriding all of my custom modifier keys. So there, there’s a defaults command listed on the, on my webpage.
[00:57:32] Brett: You can run defaults, right? And, and override these new modifier key behaviors. But the here, and here’s why I bring it up, is he has plans for, um, kind of like sub menus. So you trigger a pop clip extension, and then the bar changes to offer you. Multiple options, which to me is ideal, especially if there are
[00:57:56] Jeff: Oh my God. Totally. Yeah.
[00:57:58] Brett: way better than [00:58:00] trying to remember what modifier does what. So I’m excited to see the future of pop clip and that once, once, once that system is, finalized and out, I will definitely make pop clip a new, pick of the week here.
[00:58:13] Jeff: Love it. Love it.
[00:58:15] Brett: All right. Well, I barely missed Christina.
[00:58:20] Jeff: I missed her terribly
[00:58:21] Brett: Yeah, no, I was lying. I did too.
[00:58:24] Jeff: No, this was fun. This was
[00:58:25] Brett: She’s, she’s a, she, she brings, she brings an element to this show that, uh, definitely is it, it’s sorely lacking when she’s not here. Um, I don’t know if that’s true for me. I know it’s true for you. You bring like
[00:58:40] Jeff: for everybody.
[00:58:41] Brett: you bring like an anchor to this show that when it’s just Christina and me, things can get a little off the rails.
[00:58:48] Brett: Um, , I think when it’s just you and me, it’s, it’s got a lot. It’s, uh, it’s got some male energy to it,
[00:58:55] Jeff: Yep. Yeah. That’s bound to happen.
[00:58:59] Brett: [00:59:00] All right. Well Jeff, thanks for being here. Get some sleep.
[00:59:04] Jeff: Yeah. Get some sleep.
Continuing the interview fun, here’s part 2 of our hosts asking each other some thought provoking questions.
Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired.
Promo Swap: The Nerd Room — Are you looking to get more out of your fandom experiences? Do you wish you had the time to keep up with all the latest news and insights about your favourite film franchises? Check out The Nerd Room on all major podcast platforms. For more from The Nerd Room, head to thenerdroom.net or use the hashtag #WeTheNerd
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Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
Transcriptot320
[00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.
[00:00:04] Brett: Hi, this is Brett Terpstra. You know me. Um, this is episode two of our very special series. What was it? A very special episode. Isn’t that like Hallmark channel? Um, um, I am here again with Jeff Severances Council and Christina Warren. And we are going to, we’re we’re gonna offer, we’re gonna ask some, um, Hopefully open-ended questions that will lead to some really fun discussions.
[00:00:34] On Mastodon
[00:00:34] Brett: The last episode went great. I think, uh, this was, this was Jeff’s brainchild. I’m, I’m very impressed with how it’s going so far. Um, before we roll into the new interview questions, I did have one topic, um, especially for Christina, but I’m curious about Jeff’s input on this as well. Um, Mastodon, uh, I. I didn’t run away from Twitter when [00:01:00] Elon just completely royally fucked it.
Um, I have, I have 13,000 followers there. I have a good community. I feel, um, I feel heard there and, and that’s hard for me to leave behind. But the fact is it has become truly a, a wasteland. Um, and all of the sudden, like I set up a Macedon instance. Maybe a year ago. Um, and all of a sudden I started getting enough followers that I started following back.
That my timeline got interesting to the, to the point where I check Macedon before Twitter. Now Twitter has become kind of a, a secondary, I’ll just see what’s there, where that used to be, what Macedon was. I’d check it like maybe every three or four days and respond to queries there. But I hit like this critical mass.
I, I’m up to almost 2000 followers and I follow about. [00:02:00] Maybe 350 people. And that was like a magic number. All of a sudden, Macedon got really interesting for me. Um, I, I was getting more interaction from a post there than I have on Twitter for a long time, and I was finding more interesting articles and more links and more funny jokes.
And like Macedon suddenly became a thing for me. Uh, like this just happened in the last couple weeks. Um, ivory came out and, and th there’s honestly a great ecosystem of apps, Mona Ice cubes, like, uh, toot, uh, there’re just, there are so many good Mastodon apps. It feels like the early days of Twitter, uh, when Twitter was a little more.
Before the invention of the hashtag, you guys remember that, like that era when Twitter was still figuring out what it was. And I feel like that’s where we’re at with Macedon. So I’m curious, [00:03:00] uh, how, what your guys’ current perspective on Macedon is, uh, how your, your follower accounts are going. Um, is it, is it replacing Twitter for you?
[00:03:13] Christina: Yeah. So for me it’s getting there. I’m, I’m still in this weird place and I’m actually, so, and this is what’s frustrating because Twitter may or may not be shutting down the, or changing the terms of the developer api, which will make this difficult. But I’m still in this weird place where like, I kind of have to use both because I have a master, really large audience on Macedon, uh, relatively speaking, like I’ve got almost 13,000 followers now.
So I have more than 10% of my Twitter followers are now on Macedon. And I find that the engagement is a lot better. I think a, because frankly it’s, it’s a smaller audience, so more people, even though I have like. Fewer followers because like the pool of Macedon users is smaller. Like more people see your stuff and more people wanna be engaged with it.
Um, which honestly was [00:04:00] similar to Twitter in it’s early days too, when it was smaller. Uh, I think a lot of times you had sometimes, you know, people who were lucky enough to have like bigger accounts had like, A bigger impact, so to speak. And then as the services get bigger, you need bigger and bigger, like account numbers for that, um, to, to continue to work.
Um, the people who are on Macedon, it, it reminds me a lot of like Apple, Twitter circa like 2007 to like
[00:04:25] Brett: Yeah.
[00:04:26] Christina: Like the Mac people are all there, you know, like our, like my, my, my kind of tech nerds. Um, but not everybody is there. Like pop culture is not there. Memes are not there. Um, and so, uh, there are even some people who do cool stuff that like, like I, you know, um, who I, I maybe wouldn’t give a shout out about something who aren’t there.
So I still feel like I have to use both. And so ideally, and, and, and I’m trying to treat them as different things. Like I, I don’t wanna set up like an automated. Crosspost the same content to each service thing, cuz that’s doesn’t feel right. But it [00:05:00] also is annoying to have to rewrite the same post for two different audiences.
So there’s this service called MOA Party, uh, uh, is moa.party. And, but you can host your own instance, um, as well. That basically lets you cross-post between networks like Macdonna Twitter and it, and it can be conditional. So you could have like a hashtag and only post that have that hashtag would be cross posted.
That to me is ideal and that’s really what I want, but I don’t know how long that’ll be like, um, useful given that the, the Twitter API is kind of in
[00:05:34] Brett: Yeah, I was using, I was using like open web services for quite a while, for a year, uh, to cross post anything. I posted to Twitter, just got posted to Macedon and anything I retweeted on Twitter showed up as a boost on Macedon and that, that worked for a while. Twitter broke that. Um, that no longer functions, and I’m fine with it because Macon has just become the place I go first,[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] Christina: Yeah. I’m,
[00:06:00] Brett: about stuff.
[00:06:01] Christina: I, I’ve noticed that I’ve started to kind of do that too. And to, to the point though, where Yeah, but because of my job and because of other things, like I can’t completely, I mean, I guess I could completely migrate, but it just, I don’t know, it doesn’t feel fair to the people who are still on Twitter in some ways too.
Who, who, who I know still wanna maybe converse with me.
[00:06:19] Brett: Yeah. I’m not, I’m not deleting my Twitter
[00:06:21] Christina: Totally, totally. And so, but, but, um, I’m trying to kind of figure out like the, the way that I can cross post again, like I said, conditionally, right? Like there’s an instance where, but, but it is interesting what, for me, the changing moment was getting rid of the Twitter clients.
Like all the Elon stuff. I didn’t. I mean, I hated it, but it was getting rid of the Twitter clients. And for me, I think it was because then I started seeing a significant, uh, mass of people who weren’t there. And it was also, I think that that decision also coincided with some of the other decisions that have been made at Twitter where things are breaking, but we don’t know how broken it is because so many people are gone.
And so the website’s [00:07:00] still functioning, but it’s not really functioning. And so people don’t see your tweets because that stuff has been changed or the, the logic behind that is broken and, and no one
[00:07:10] Brett: Somehow, no matter how much blocking and unfollowing I do, I still see tweets from Elon every day,
[00:07:17] Christina: Yeah, yeah. Uh, and, and there were reports that he like had, like made, forced kind of, uh, you know, engineers to rejigger the algorithm so that everybody would see his content first, which is.
[00:07:30] Jeffrey: Uh, the great fictional company, Huli,
[00:07:32] Christina: Yeah, exactly. 100%. 100. I mean,
[00:07:35] Brett: Oh, Gavin.
[00:07:36] Christina: all of this is like literally out of like Silicon Valley. Um, but it’s real, but, but, but beyond like that stuff, like, stuff is just broken and the site is breaking and whatnot.
And so it’s becoming this frustrating thing where it’s like, I don’t get the engagement. I don’t see people that I used to really, like, some of them have moved to Masson, some of them haven’t. And so I’m like, well, if I get more engagement, you know, on this [00:08:00] platform, I’m, I’m gonna spend more time here. But like I said, the thing that sucks about it is like all my memes, all my pop culture, all that stuff is just not there.
And I don’t know if it’s going to be there. Like, I think that, yeah.
[00:08:13] Brett: Does Instagram fill that gap for you at all? Because to me, Instagram is broken these days too.
[00:08:18] Christina: Yeah. It,
[00:08:19] Brett: every third post on Instagram is an ad I get. They, they infiltrate my timeline with people I don’t follow because someone I do follow liked a post and they decided, all right, I’m gonna show that to you.
[00:08:32] Christina: I’m getting notifications now that so-and-so posted something and I’m getting a notification because two people that I follow also follow. And I’m like, what are you doing? Like, I, I, I don’t know,
[00:08:43] Brett: Not, not in the way that Twitter is broken, but it is, it is. It’s gonna kill itself. It is going to kill itself.
[00:08:51] Christina: The thing that had kept Instagram, I think, so successful for so long is that Kevin Systrom and, uh, Mike, I can’t think of his last name.
Um, uh, last name starts [00:09:00] with the K, the two like founders were still there. And when they left, I think that they left in like 2018, um, because of some clashes was z uh, that to me, I was like, okay, there it goes. Because they had, they had maintained like creative control and like product vision. and you know, he started putting just the, the, you know, ad guys and the people who are juicing engagement in charge, and then the service dies, like, you know,
[00:09:31] Brett: because it’s not sustainable. And with apple’s latest, like do not follow, uh, technologies. And with Google removing like cookie tracking, um, in upcoming removal of cookie tracking, like the ad, the ad based. Uh, system that these major services were built on is going to fail them. And they do. They’ve never put time into figuring out [00:10:00] an alternative way to make money.
And Elon’s struggling with that right now. Uh, but also z like, there’s just, it’s, it’s in an, in an era where we’re starting to worry a little more about privacy, where we’ve stopped just voluntarily giving up privacy. Um, ads aren’t, ads aren’t gonna work the way they have for the last 10 years or so.
[00:10:25] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it’s, it’s interesting. People will have to change things. I, it’s interesting to look that at a, you know, talk’s Rise too, which is, uh, So in TikTok is a completely different system in that like, and this I think is why Instagram has been struggling because Instagram was brought up in like the old web era where your social graphic was very important that it be people, you know, and that was what linked you together.
And like that was, you know, uh, Facebook and that was Instagram. And, and to a certain extent that was Twitter. Twitter’s always kind of been kind of in the middle of these two worlds, which [00:11:00] to me is actually strength. But, you know, uh, it’s not strength if you don’t capitalize on that, whereas, TikTok is all about your interest graph.
It’s not about your, your personal, uh, graph. Right? Like, I don’t really follow a lot of people that I know in real life. I follow some of them, but a lot of them I don’t. And I, I kind of don’t even like that. Like I see people auto following me on TikTok cause I, I don’t post anything on there, but I’m kinda like, oh man, I’m, that’s not really, you know, the audience.
I’m kind of going for like, if you want to, cool, but like, that’s not really, you know, my, my, my bag. And so it’s, it’s a, it’s different expectations and different types of, you know, interactions with things. The reason it sucks that what Instagram is doing is that it’s like you go into it with the expectation that I’m going to see people that I chose to follow my friends or people I’m interested in.
And instead they’re showing you content that they think you’re gonna like, and hey, maybe you do like it, but like, that’s not what I signed up for.
[00:11:52] Brett: but yeah, and it’s like the majority, like if you wanted, if you wanted to slip in, you know, something you thought I would [00:12:00] be interested in every 10 20 posts fine. But you get past the first five posts in your Instagram feed and it’s, it’s not stuff you signed up to
[00:12:10] Christina: no, no where,
[00:12:12] Brett: just reaching for your interest at that point.
[00:12:14] Christina: exactly. Whereas TikTok was very clear about, we are going to show you stuff that we think you will like based on your activity and you might not even have to follow people. We’re just going to continue to feed you this stuff. But like I know that, I know that going into TikTok that that’s what it’s going to do.
YouTube is sort of similar in that way, right? Like I might follow certain personalities, but I don’t need to have like a personal relationship with people that I follow on YouTube. And a lot of times stuff that’s recommended to me is not people that I follow. And that’s great
[00:12:42] Brett: Yeah, like
[00:12:43] Christina: I come into it.
[00:12:44] Brett: YouTube’s algorithm, YouTube’s algorithm is working for me. I watch a video from someone that I specifically subscribe to. I watch their video. At the end of it, after I’ve gotten the content, I came there for. It gently suggests. Oh, if [00:13:00] you dug that, here’s some other related content. Um, and sure, you know, like the whole radicalization procedure that it puts people through is, is terrifying.
But for me, I, I, I find new content. I subscribe to three new YouTubers last week just because of suggested content after our video. I watched that’s, that’s an okay way to do it. But that worked on YouTube because you are consuming more than just one image and then moving on, you’re actually engaged with something for five to 20 minutes or longer if you’re into like crazy Collin shows like the atheist experience.
But we totally lost Jeff in all of this. I’m sorry, Jeff
[00:13:44] Christina: Jeff
[00:13:45] Jeffrey: you didn’t lose me. I’m listening. I, uh, I was on a
[00:13:49] Brett: here to listen. My favorite 12 step response.
[00:13:53] Jeffrey: I, I have the privilege of being able to kind of sit back and see how this mastered on [00:14:00] Twitter thing sorts, cuz I don’t have any reason to be, I don’t have any, I don’t have any, no, I’m not, I’m sorry. I’m, I don’t have any professional reason to be on Mastadon or on Twitter at the moment.
And so I, I’ve been just kind of letting it fly, letting it go, see what happens. But I, I find it a little, we’ve talked about this before, Christina, you and I talked about this, I think when Brett was out. Like, it is, it is the case that I, I know there’s so much of what I have gone to Twitter for and what I’ve built and uh, you know, in terms of who I followed and lists and everything else.
Like, they just can’t be recreated. Like, and, and I am, I’m, I’m not ready to fully grieve that loss. And so I’ve kind of. I’ve stayed in, but I’ve, I’ve noticed, you know, every, every week it’s, it’s a truer thing that, uh, what I created is not really what I created anymore. Um, and so, you know, as a kid who had to move like 30 times or something, I pisses me off to have to like, take all my posters down and put ’em on up somewhere else.
But I do have to, I do have to [00:15:00] go over to Macedon and, and put my posters up.
[00:15:02] Brett: I create an Overtired MA sit down account? And if so, what instance should I put it on? Is there a podcast, like what place where Podcast Gather? Is there an instance for, I bet there
[00:15:18] Christina: I bet there is. I bet there is. Yeah, cuz, cuz there are, because unfortunately it does sort of matter. I would think Hacky Durham might be the one that we would use, uh, because that’s kinda like the tech-centric one. Um, uh, but actually let’s, let’s also put this out to our listeners.
[00:15:37] Brett: yeah.
[00:15:38] Christina: What, what, what instance do you think we should be on?
Should we be on Macedon? For Overtired? I feel like it, it, it would find our audience cuz like both of us have managed to build, you know, um, good proportions of our, of our Twitter audiences on Macedon really quickly with, with very little work.
[00:15:55] Brett: I wanna switch, I wanna switch instances like I signed up . [00:16:00] I’m on no, noj dot ez dns.com. Uh, or ca.
[00:16:08] Jeffrey: Is that? Is that, that sounds like some dark web drug buying
[00:16:11] Christina: it does. It
[00:16:12] Brett: it is. What it is is Libertarian shit. It’s, it’s, Easy. DNS is run by a libertarian who puts out a libertarian newsletter. And there there’s this fine line between like skeptical of the government, which I am, um, and, and libertarian and like I, I am the newsletter he puts out, talks about privacy invasions, especially in, uh, Canada and the us and, and it’s stuff that is actually of interest to me.
Uh, but the , the approach he takes to it is disconcerting for me. Um, that said, like, I signed up because it, he was like, Hey, I made a ma instance and at the time Macedon was a new thing. And I’m like, all right, I’ll sign up. [00:17:00] And I did. And now I have this embarrassing, uh, Macedon handle TT scoff at noj jack dot. Easy DNS ca. Um, and I, I wanna switch. I feel like there’s, there’s like , there’s an, there’s, uh, there are indie app spaces. Um, there are, uh, spaces that I would feel more comfortable having associated with my handle that, um, I, I know it’s possible to like switch instances and have all of your followers follow you there?
[00:17:37] Christina: and I’ve done it.
[00:17:38] Brett: haven’t looked into it yet.
[00:17:40] Christina: yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll, I can walk you through that. The only thing is, is that like you wanna figure out what essence you wanna go to and then, um, with your number of followers, I think that you’d be okay. It takes some time cuz they have to re propagate. You won’t bring your posts with you.
That’s, that’s the only thing. All of your posts will remain kind of in a read only state in, in the [00:18:00] old thing. Um, and.
[00:18:01] Brett: At this point, I think I’m okay with that.
[00:18:03] Christina: Totally. I’m just saying that, that that is kind of a, a concern, uh, that a lot of people have. And I’ve actually been looking at maybe getting my own, like hosted, uh, master on instance that like I control at, at like Master Host.
Um,
[00:18:16] Brett: Oh, we should start an Overtired
[00:18:17] Christina: was thinking that, I was thinking that, I was like, we could do that for like $5 a month or something. Um, but uh, and we’ve been thinking about doing one for Rocket, but um,
[00:18:28] Brett: I would join the Rocket instance.
[00:18:30] Christina: yeah, totally. Totally. Um, and we could have it Overtired at, at like whatever our, um, uh,
[00:18:37] Brett: I’m surprised re relay doesn’t have their own incense.
[00:18:40] Christina: does, I think.
But they don’t have it. Like, it’s not like a thing where like, at least to my knowledge anyway, they’re, I mean, maybe for some people they’re like, Hey, join our instance and, and moved all your stuff over. But
[00:18:50] Brett: But it’s mostly for shows at this point. Yeah.
[00:18:54] Jeffrey: I don’t know, Brett, wouldn’t you, wouldn’t you miss TT scoff at, uh, take it sl. That’s what [00:19:00] she said. Biz
[00:19:02] Brett: It’s gotta be ca it’s gotta be, it’s gotta be a Chinese, a Chinese tld. Um, um, alright. We are, we we’re 20 minutes in already and we haven’t gotten to interview questions. So what I’m gonna do is take a quick sponsor block, uh, and then we’ll spend the rest of the time on our interview questions. So same sponsor from last week.
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[00:20:44] Promo Swap: The Nerd Room
[00:20:44] Brett: Also, We have a promo swap this week. Are you looking to get more out of your fandom experiences? Do you wish you had the time to keep up with all the latest news and insights about your favorite film franchises?
Well [00:21:00] then look no further than the Nerd Room Podcast. A weekly audio experience with deep dives into the la, the latest news reviews and speculation from the worlds of Star Wars, Marvel, DC and beyond. Whether you’re a casual fan or a diehard enthusiast, the nerd Room has something for everyone. Plug into the Nerd Room podcast every Thursday on all major podcast platforms and let them bring the nerd to you.
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[00:21:40] Jeffrey: We the nerd. We The
[00:21:42] If you could go anywhere…
[00:21:42] Brett: Yes. All right, Jeff, do you want to kick us off with a question again?
[00:21:46] Jeffrey: Alright, here is the question. It’s not so much a tech question, although I guess maybe it could be if you choose to snap and end up in like a server room. But if you could snap your fingers and be anywhere in the world [00:22:00] but invisible. why invisible?
So obviously why the place, but why invisible?
[00:22:05] Christina: Okay. All right. I think that I would go to China and I would go to China, or I would go to Ukraine. Um, and I would be invisible in both of those places because I, well Ukraine, because I, I would want to be safe and would not want to necessarily have to like engage in all like the horror that’s happening there.
But I would also like to see what’s happening on the ground. And China, I would love to go to China, but my fear about going to China has been for a long time, and not so much fear, but just like hesitation. It’s been like, I’m gonna have to bring a burner phone, I’m gonna have to bring a burner laptop. I’m gonna have to like, deal with a lot of like the, the state sponsored stuff.
and I, I don’t know how much I would wanna engage necessarily with the state. And so I would love to see China, [00:23:00] but I would like to see it in a context where like, I’m not having to engage with the government, which seems like that would be difficult to do otherwise. Um, and in the Ukraine, simply it is just that I’m a freaking baby and, and don’t wanna go to like a war zone.
Um,
[00:23:14] Jeffrey: that that’s not being a baby that’s wanting to live
[00:23:19] Christina: but I, but I would like to see like what’s happening on the ground and I would like to like, you know,
[00:23:23] Jeffrey: Yeah,
[00:23:24] Christina: uh, ha have, have perspective of that.
[00:23:27] Jeffrey: totally. Totally. That’s awesome. Did you ever see the, um, the YouTube videos? This guy, I think he’s in Shinzen, and he, he’s like, how I made my own iPhone. And he basically goes through all the tech markets to find the various
[00:23:42] Christina: Yeah.
[00:23:43] Jeffrey: of iPhone tech and puts it all together. Uh, just about at the end. Oh God.
That’s what I thought of when you said you’d wanna, you’d wanna be chat. I,
[00:23:52] Christina: No, I totally, the tech markets, yeah. I would love to see the tech markets. I would love to see like the, some of the factories. I would love to see some of the, I mean, it’s such a vast country, right? [00:24:00] Like, like,
[00:24:00] Jeffrey: Yeah. Incredible.
[00:24:01] Christina: I would love to see like the, the Great Wall as, as, uh, you know, trite as that is.
Um, uh, but, but I would love to see, yeah, I would love to see the cities. Like I haven’t spent a lot of time in Asia, unfortunately. Um, I’d, I’d had some trips planned and then, uh, COVID happened. Um, but I would, I, like, I, I don’t wanna be invisible when I go to Tokyo, like I wanna like be fully immersed in all of that.
Um, but I, in China, I, I, I have a feeling I’ll go there certain day and, and not invisible. And I’ll be very happy to do that. But again, like I’d be thinking about my opsec and I’d be thinking about. The state. So it would be cool to be there, you know, again, kind of as an observer, um, and not having to necessarily be like a participant.
I, I think that, I think that for me is, is any place I would go be like a place I would wanna go to observe, but not to participate in
[00:24:52] Jeffrey: yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense, Brett.
[00:24:55] Brett: I couldn’t think of an answer to this. Well, I had to think hard [00:25:00] to come up with an answer that wasn’t creepy and overtly sexual. Um,
[00:25:05] Jeffrey: You know what’s funny? It didn’t even occur to me. What a creepy question that could be.
[00:25:08] Christina: No, it didn’t. Me either. And until we said this, and I’m like, oh, actually, yeah. Fair enough. Fair enough.
[00:25:13] Brett: So, so here’s my answer. Here’s what, here’s what I came up with. Um, I would like to, Are we in al Like, do we take up space in this invisible,
[00:25:26] Jeffrey: I, I leave that up
[00:25:28] Brett: with like, I wanna go to a Michelin star kitchen. Um, and I wanna, I wanna watch the chef and the sous chefs. I wanna watch them work.
Um, I’d love, I love cooking YouTube. Um, I love watching real chefs do their thing. I love food so much. Um, and it’s just fascinating to me to see that what goes into the preparation of Michelin star meals. And if I could be [00:26:00] in those kitchens which don’t have a lot of space and like you can’t be in the way.
So I would literally have to be a fly on the wall, an invisible fly on the
[00:26:08] Christina: Or you’d have to be a rat at Chewy. You’d have to be a rat.
[00:26:11] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:26:13] Brett: I would hope that there aren’t a lot of rats in Michelin circuit kitchens, but, but yes. Um, I, I would just, I would love to just spy
[00:26:24] Christina: That would be
[00:26:24] Brett: on someone not making a YouTube video, just doing their thing just in the moment, not explaining what they’re doing. Just fucking cooking.
[00:26:33] Christina: just wanna actually observe. I love, oh, I love this answer so much. This is like, this is genuinely like, such a better answer than mine. That’s so cool.
[00:26:40] Brett: I, I, I liked your answer.
[00:26:43] Jeffrey: that’s awesome.
[00:26:44] Brett: Did you guys, oh, we talked about the bear, right? You guys saw the bear. I know, I know. We’re not talking
[00:26:49] Jeffrey: I do not want to, I do not wanna be in the bear, uh, invisible or otherwise, but love that show.
[00:26:56] Brett: but that kitchen environment, like to me, there’s something [00:27:00] attractive about like just being in a kitchen that knows what they’re doing and like, yeah,
[00:27:06] Christina: You read, you read, you read the book Kitchen Confidential, right? I’m sure you.
[00:27:09] Brett: I didn’t.
[00:27:10] Jeffrey: I did not either.
[00:27:11] Christina: You have to, and the audio book is really good, especially now that he is gone. Um, that is Anthony Bourdain’s, you know, book. It was turned into a TV show. But no, you would love it. You would love it, Brett, because it, it’s all the culture and, and everything that goes into that.
And it’s, it’s, it’s a great book. Um, the audio book is really, really good too, because he, you know, is, is the narrator and he’s obviously, you know, he was a fantastic, um, uh, speaker and and storyteller. Um, you saying this. So my favorite ride at Disney World was the rat
[00:27:42] Jeffrey: was my next question, the TUI ride.
[00:27:45] Christina: rat ride? Uh, uh, like Remy’s, uh, quest or something.
I don’t remember what it’s called now, but basically you’re in these little, um, the way that they have it working is that it’s one of the, the three. Um, rides, um, [00:28:00] or I think it’s 3d. Um, I think you have 3D glasses. It, it’s kind of a combination of different elements. So, uh, basically it’s like a dark ride coaster sort of thing, but each of the, um, cars is shaved like a mouse.
And so the idea is that you are a mouse who’s, um, helping, um, assist Remy as he’s helping get service for the restaurant. And so everything is like massively like scaled. So like you’ve got like, you know, and you’ve got these experiences where like you have, um, somebody sees you, uh, and, and you almost get swept under something and then a water from the, uh, mop comes and hits you in the face and real water comes out and, and, and, you know, you see like these, these, these different kind of, uh, thing, it’s just super, super fun.
Like, I, I, I went on it several times and I had a great time. Uh, so, uh, that made me think of that because that was like,
[00:28:53] Brett: I feel like there’s a,
[00:28:54] Christina: the wall in, in a high end restaurant?
[00:28:56] Brett: there’s a litmus, there’s a litmus test much akin [00:29:00] to knowing that Frankenstein wasn’t the monster. Um, and knowing that rat Tui wasn’t the rat
[00:29:06] Christina: Yes.
[00:29:07] Jeffrey: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:29:11] Brett: All right. Can I, can, before we switch to Jeff’s answer, which I want to hear, um, have you guys ever read a deadly education?
[00:29:22] Jeffrey: no.
[00:29:22] Christina: No.
[00:29:23] Brett: It’s, you, you, you said audiobook, and this, I just wanna mention this completely, completely as an aside. Uh, but it’s Harry Potter, except. There are no teachers in the school. The school wants to kill you.
Only a quarter of the graduating class survives. But it’s, it’s magic and it’s lethal. And I started this book and just immediately gotten grossed in it. Like it is what I look forward. I’m, I’m doing the audiobook. It’s part of a trilogy, but a deadly education is the first one. And [00:30:00] it just drops you immediately into this world where magic wants to kill you.
[00:30:05] Christina: Okay. I love
[00:30:06] Brett: e every decision you make is a survival decision. It’s fascinating.
[00:30:11] Christina: Okay. I’m gonna, I’m, I’m gonna put this in my queue of, of things to like, to listen to next. I have an
[00:30:15] Brett: Yeah. I highly recommend it. Very good. All right, Jeff, so what is your answer to this question?
[00:30:23] Jeffrey: Um, it’s funny, I wrote the question and then instantly had an answer as I was writing it. Um,
[00:30:29] Brett: And it didn’t have anything to do with girls’ locker rooms.
[00:30:32] Jeffrey: No it did not. Sorry. It’s, this isn’t gonna be, what’s the movie? Oh, what’s the porkies? Thank you very much. Well played Um, okay. So I, from 1998 to 2001, I was traveling back and forth to Iraq, uh, doing like humanitarian work. And then, um, I stopped for a while and then the war happened and I went [00:31:00] back and I went back like, know, does everybody remember the big statue being pulled
[00:31:04] Brett: Mm-hmm. . Sure.
[00:31:06] Jeffrey: I went back, I went back like right after that, right after that, like a day or two after that. Um, so the occupation was pretty new and, and everything was still very confusing. And, um, and, and also it was the, um, first time I had ever experienced a city that I knew, well, this is the only time I ever experienced , a city that I knew well, um, being totally
[00:31:29] Brett: Leveled.
[00:31:31] Jeffrey: not leveled because in Baghdad, like it was a lot of like what they call smart bomb hits, you know?
But, but there were, there were, there was just enough of that kind of stuff that the whole city felt different, even though, you know, other parts were still working, whatever. Anyway, I really love that city, um, and, and really loved the time I was blessed to spend in it. Um, but once the war ended, and especially once the Civil War started, [00:32:00] um, Which, you know, was like 2006 or so when that started, lasted a couple years.
It, it just wasn’t possible to go back. Like I, I had had friends, um, Iraqi and American Kidnapped. I had had, uh, someone who was traveling with my organization was kidnapped and then beheaded. Um, and, and it just wasn’t possible to go and not get someone hurt basically. Um, and, and the place that I would like to go now, because it’s now been since, uh, 2003, since I was there at all.
Um, and of course coming up on the 20th anniversary of the war this month is, um, there was this big hotel called, called the the Palestine Hotel. And. You could go to the restaurant on the top floor, which was like a 360 restaurant. It wasn’t one of those that moved. They had one of those in Baghdad, but this wasn’t that.
But it was like, there were all of these like, um, really high backed booths that you could sit in and kind of see some part of the city. And it was like a perfect place cuz you’re like [00:33:00] right on the Tigers River and um, you could really see how the city’s laid out and how it’s functioning and um, all of that stuff.
And I used to love it cuz like you could go up there and there’d be like young lovers eating cake in the like, private booths, you know? Um, and uh, and people would meet there for various reasons. It was a lovely place to hang out. Um, and I would love to just be plopped. There first in that restaurant to just have sort of a look around the city and see what’s changed because I, it’s not so much that it was all bombed out anymore, it’s that it’s been in a rebuilding process for quite some time.
And, um, and I, and I know exactly how I would be able to see that, um, like which park areas and which whatever else, and just sounds lovely to be able to be there and, and wandering around and not, uh, not getting, Hurts , because that is the sad reality to this day. I mean, I have friends who go, everyone always goes to Northern Iraq, but in [00:34:00] Baghdad, I, I think it’s still not terribly safe for anybody who is your friend if you’re there,
[00:34:05] Brett: Sure
[00:34:06] Jeffrey: So I wanna be dropped in a restaurant too. Um,
[00:34:10] Brett: for entirely different reasons.
[00:34:12] Christina: different.
[00:34:12] Jeffrey: reasons,
[00:34:13] Brett: All
[00:34:14] Jeffrey: oh, and the sunsets. You could watch the sunsets there. It was really awesome. That’s an awesome city, man. I hope, I hope to God one day you, you could just travel there normally and be a tourist. It’s just an awesome city
[00:34:25] Brett: Nice.
[00:34:26] Christina: what do you think would have to happen for that to actually be a reality? Like I, I would hope that too, but I just don’t know geopolitically if that’s ever going to really be a possibility.
[00:34:33] Jeffrey: I have no idea anymore. I used to think I could imagine a pathway to that moment, but the way in which, the way in which the region and, and geopolitical forces generally like shifted or imploded because of that war and the way in which that some of that implosion didn’t happen for five years or 10 years or 15 years.
And the way in which that’s still happening, you know, I can’t imagine. I mean, I [00:35:00] just think I get so frustrated as someone who was working pretty much full-time as an anti-war like organizer and going on TV and radio. Cause I’ve been traveling there. It’s like, like talk about it like that. Um, you know, it’s not even satisfying to say we were right cuz actually we were wrong.
It was bad. We had no fucking idea. How bad it was going to be. Um, you know, we weren’t saying, we weren’t saying, Hey, there’s gonna be a civil war and there’ll be bodies in the street every day that nobody wants to pick up because it’s dangerous to even go out and pick up a body in the street. Right. Like, we weren’t thinking of that.
We weren’t thinking of Syria, we weren’t thinking of the Arab Spring and, and, and where that fits into everything.
[00:35:37] Christina: weren’t thinking 20 years.
[00:35:38] Jeffrey: yeah. And so, I don’t know. I, I don’t know how to, I don’t know how to think about it,
[00:35:43] Brett: You know who you should talk to though is Jared Kushner,
[00:35:47] Jeffrey: yeah, that guy seems to be on top of some shit. Yeah,
[00:35:53] Brett: All right,
[00:35:53] Jeffrey: love to kick him in the shin and flick his ear
[00:35:58] Brett: Um, all, so [00:36:00] my question for you guys would be, since, since we were talking about Michelin Star kitchens,
[00:36:08] Christina: Yes.
[00:36:09] Brett: all right, so envision your last meal. You don’t have to be on death row, but you have the opportunity. You know, you know, this is your last meal for whatever reason. What do you want to eat and where do you want to eat?
[00:36:25] Jeffrey: I’m so, I’m so confused about this question because like I get way too in the weeds right away. Like, I’m like, I’m like, well, if it’s my last meal, I don’t wanna just be jerked around some part of the world and I’m back home and like I wanna be with my people. You
[00:36:38] Brett: snap of the fingers. It’s a snap of the fingers. You’re just suddenly, you’re suddenly where No, no, there’s no travel. You’re just, you have this moment where you get to eat the meal of your choice in the setting that you choose with no other repercussions. And, and if you have any dietary sensitivities, they don’t [00:37:00] apply.
[00:37:02] Jeffrey: I don’t apply.
[00:37:03] Brett: Like for me, like I’m, I’m, uh, gluten and lactose intolerant, so like some of my favorite meals, I, I just, I can’t eat. So for me, this is like a total fantasy thing.
[00:37:18] Jeffrey: Okay. I have one. I have one. I have
[00:37:20] Brett: okay.
[00:37:21] Jeffrey: I don’t know where this location is, but I’m assuming I could almost like, make a request and, and the location would be found. Um, I would love to have, The, the best papu cart in El Salvador’s, papusas as my last,
[00:37:40] Brett: and you want street food.
[00:37:41] Jeffrey: I want street food, but I want Papusas and, and I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna do what always happens when you’re in the States, which is like, oh, maybe they’re gonna be super dry.
They’re never, you can never know they’re gonna be right. I wanna know that they’re right. And I want that to be my last meal with if, if possible. And I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna assume they’re [00:38:00] supposed to have, uh, uh, the cake of another country or anything like that, but if there’s some trace leche cake for dessert sounds great.
[00:38:07] Brett: It’s, it’s your fantasy, man. You, you set the menu.
[00:38:10] Jeffrey: My, my friend Dan and I, um, when we lived in Chicago, we both worked Fit Punk Planet Magazine. He was the, like, founder of Punk Planet Magazine, and we would get Papusas every week and we actually took a community Spanish class just so we could order our papus in Spanish.
[00:38:24] Brett: Wait, Dan, Danny.
[00:38:26] Jeffrey: No, Dan Sinker
[00:38:28] Brett: Oh,
[00:38:28] Jeffrey: different, not Danny Glamor.
[00:38:30] Brett: Oh, I was gonna, if, if he was the founder of, of punk planet, I, I was gonna, I was gonna regret not not, not knowing that at our last interaction. Okay.
[00:38:41] Jeffrey: So we learned just enough Spanish to order in Spanish. That was our goal.
[00:38:44] Brett: Nice. Christina, have you thought of anything?
[00:38:49] Christina: I have. So I think. it would be a John Georges restaurant, and I’m just trying to figure out which one it would
[00:38:56] Jeffrey: Mm.
[00:38:57] Christina: Um, because there are a bunch, [00:39:00] so like I could go like lower end in the John Georges like Pantheon, which is not to say it’s low end cuz it’s still gray. I and say ABC Kitchen, um, in, um, uh, New York City in the Flatiron, um, where I’ve been many times and where I had Thanksgiving once.
Um, and uh, I I I love ABC Kitchen. I think it’s a great restaurant. Um, and it, it has like a nice mix of um, uh, different types of, of foods, but they have really good, um, like pastas and, but also great fish, which he’s known for and, and meats and steaks and other things. There was a John George’s restaurant that I was went to in Sao Paulo in Brazil.
That was at this hotel that, um, one of my coworkers was staying at because she booked the fancy hotel and the rest of us stayed at like the Marriott, like in the city. And she stayed like further out, like this super, super swank hotel cuz she did it right. And like my last day in Brazil, and this was [00:40:00] in, um, early December and it made me think that like, I would love to go to Brazil during, um, new Year’s, some, some year because it’s, uh, warm there.
It’s summer there. And, um, we were like out by the pool and we ate at the, uh, the, this just fantastic restaurant. I had this great risotto and this great, um, uh, uh, these great scallops. Um,
[00:40:22] Jeffrey: That
[00:40:23] Christina: and, and, and then there’s, then there’s John Georges in, in New York City. . But I think honestly the one in Brazil, I think the one in, uh, in Sao Paulo in, in kind of like is outside of the city a little bit.
It’s this beautiful hotel that had this like beautiful pool and, and the restaurant was fantastic. And, um, the food was just great and, and it was just a wonderful location and it was kind of a fusion of a bunch of different things. And so I think that’s one of my favorite restaurants. And, um, I’ve also been to some great restaurants in Paris, but I think that the, the John Georges in, uh, in Brazil is, is where I would have my final meal.[00:41:00]
[00:41:00] Jeffrey: That sounds like fun.
[00:41:02] Brett: Nice. Do you wanna hear my
[00:41:04] Christina: We have to hear your
[00:41:05] Jeffrey: course, we ought to hear answer.
[00:41:07] Brett: I have, I have two and, and come, come end of life, I would have to choose one or the other. Uh, first one would be like a, a neopolitan pizza with a like Italian meal served in Rome wi in a small villa with like a family of 12.
[00:41:28] Christina: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:29] Brett: Like the whole Italian dining experience, like family style, dining experience, um, pizza.
And, and I, I don’t even know, I’m not Italian enough to know what like ideal accompaniments would be, but I envision like a whole meal built around Neapolitan pizza. Um,
[00:41:49] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[00:41:50] Brett: second option is street taco pork. I’m a vegetarian, but this is my last meal.
[00:41:59] Christina: meal, so, [00:42:00] so you’re going all out. Do it.
[00:42:01] Jeffrey: Yep.
[00:42:02] Brett: uh, an aest store pork taco from a street cart in Mexico City,
[00:42:09] Jeffrey: Sounds
[00:42:09] Brett: Eaton at a picnic table.
Streetside, like, that’s, those are my, those are my two competing options for my last meal.
[00:42:19] Jeffrey: Awesome. What are you gonna do? Flip a coin or what?
[00:42:22] Brett: I mean, I, I think it’s whatever I’m in the mood for at the moment, I find out that this is my last meal. It’s, it’s whatever comes to mind first. The way I, when, when we’re talking about like going out for dinner, what I do is I close my eyes and I imagine eating different foods, and I pay attention to the way it makes me feel in my body.
When I imagine the foods and people, when we go out to restaurants, I am always the guy that everyone’s like, oh, I should have ordered that. Uh, because I order , I order, well, like I’m really good at, I’m really [00:43:00] good at examining how is this gonna make me, how, what level of happiness is this dish going to bring me?
And, and imagining it and, and fueling it, and then making my decision. So give, like at the moment, in the moment where someone’s like, this is your last meal, what do you do? I would picture the two. I would see how I felt and, and roll with it.
[00:43:23] Christina: I, I, I have another potential addendum. Patsy’s, you, you said pizza and I was just like, I gotta go
[00:43:28] Jeffrey: Oh yeah.
[00:43:30] Christina: That’s like the best pizza.
[00:43:31] Brett: haven’t been there.
[00:43:32] Christina: It, it, it’s like, probably like the, the best pizza in New York, in my opinion.
[00:43:36] Brett: All right.
[00:43:37] Jeffrey: Yeah, it’s lovely
[00:43:39] Brett: God, I love talking about food. All right, Christina.
[00:43:45] Christina: All right. My question is, um, what was the first thing, like, you know, talking like, like musician or a band or a film or an author or a brand or whatever, like that you were a fan of, like a fan, like your first like, introductory to [00:44:00] fandom, like the first thing that you loved, you know, that you maybe like, had like, would, would, you know, get merch from, or, or, or wanna be, you know, wanna put posters of your wall up of, and, and, and just loved everything about it.
Like beyond just liked, but like, you were a fan of. Uh, and, and then the, the secondary question about is like, are you still a fan of that thing?
[00:44:20] Brett: All right. So I had to think long and hard about this because like I grew up, we weren’t allowed to watch a lot of tv. I wasn’t allowed to buy music. Um, my parents listened to Peter, Paul, and Mary, and like, there just were not a lot of things, but the TV shows I was allowed to watch as a kid, I became fans of.
And I would have to go with Night Rider. Um, like I had, I had the Kit model car, I had the action figure of David Hasselhoff. I had the poster on my, on my room wall. Um, like Night Rider [00:45:00] was the first time that I experienced like, going to bed at night and wondering what Night Rider was doing now, uh, that like, I want into this person’s life and Night Rider.
I mean, secondary secondarily like Buck Rogers. But I would say Night Rider was my first fandom. And no, I’m not still a fan. I’ve seen episodes of it. It doesn’t hold up. Um, I, I, maybe I’m over it. I might be overly critical.
[00:45:34] Christina: the theme song is still fantastic.
[00:45:36] Brett: is
[00:45:36] Jeffrey: did you hear the band? The band Deerhoof made an amazing record recently that integrated that,
[00:45:42] Brett: I haven’t heard that. I’ll check that
[00:45:45] Jeffrey: really amazing.
[00:45:46] Brett: All right. I’m adding a note for the show notes, dear Hoof. All right. That’s what I got.
[00:45:51] Jeffrey: Um, mine. So if we’re talking first, like the first for me, I believe would be Motley [00:46:00] Crew. Um, first time I was exposed to them, it was just to their images. So my, not even my stepbrother yet, cuz our parents were dating and, and I was living and living together. And so he came home and at the bottom of the stairs in our townhouse was a record.
And it was the shout at the devil record, which was, it was the version that had a black front. So it had a black front, a matte front, but the pentagram was gloss and, and it said Motley Cruz name. And I thought, well that looks. Badass and I turned it around and like their photos on that album are just like, there’s flames and they’re wearing that awesome red and black leather leather with like little spikes and shit, and cod pieces and everything.
And I was, I was probably in fourth grade and I was like, that is the coolest fucking thing I’ve ever seen. And, and so I, I got to listen to that record and I, I definitely loved it, but it wasn’t until, um, theater of [00:47:00] Payne came out, um, with their hit home suite home, one of
[00:47:04] Brett: Mm-hmm.
[00:47:04] Jeffrey: hits, um, that I like, truly fell in love with that band.
Um, and, and like w you know, I had. Not just posters, but like door posters. Remember those like the
[00:47:14] Christina: Yeah, yeah,
[00:47:16] Jeffrey: like so many door posters that they had to go on the wall and, um, . And I had like, you know, my, my mom and stepdad worked at this magazine, distribution company, which had like every music magazine.
And so I had tons of like, cutouts
[00:47:31] Christina: so you had all the cutouts, you, you, you had everything. That’s
[00:47:34] Jeffrey: everything enough to like, I had a cutout so I could tape onto my school folders. Like everything I needed to be a fan. And like, and, and I, and I thought about them all the time. I remember buying their VHS like home video. Cause bands used to always have like a VHS home video they called it.
[00:47:50] Brett: Before the Pam and Tommy video
[00:47:52] Jeffrey: not that home video
[00:47:54] Christina: I mean, I, I mean, I mean you did have that home video we’ve all talked about, well, maybe, maybe you didn’t buy it, but we all saw it. We [00:48:00] all saw
[00:48:00] Jeffrey: right, that’s right. But like, you know, it was like them, like just going to band practice and being in the studio and like hanging out chicks. Stupid. It’s stupid. But I, I watched it over and over again and I would buy, like, once Tommy Lee had custom sticks, I used those, those drumsticks for my drumming.
And just to say that the first time my band ever played like a meaningful show, which was all the way in like, probably seventh grade or eighth grade, I guess. I, I actually like, before leaving the house to go to this show, I actually sort of prayed to one of those door posters. I was like,
[00:48:32] Christina: Yeah.
[00:48:33] Jeffrey: dudes, I’m gonna need.
everything I can get tonight. Okay. You know, it was like a battle of bands or something like that. And, um, so yeah, that was it. Like I, I was, I thought about them all the time. I imagined their lives, I imagined myself in their lives, like, did not have an easy time doing that. Um, and they did not hold up, as we all know, if we’ve got YouTube.
Um, not only did they, I mean their, some of their records [00:49:00] did hold up. I can really enjoy the first record. I can really enjoy.
[00:49:03] Brett: Live Wire. Live Wire is still a banging song.
[00:49:06] Jeffrey: and I still love shout at the Devil. I still, I still love some of the, I actually love riffs on every album. I mean, I, I, I fell off at, uh, Dr. Feelgood, but
[00:49:17] Brett: mc Mars was a genius. Vince Neal’s younger voice like
[00:49:21] Jeffrey: yeah.
[00:49:22] Brett: all the way up through like Dr. Feelgood, like his voice was magical,
[00:49:28] Jeffrey: and like as a drummer, I loved the like drummers front man thing. I was like, oh yeah, that’s pretty, that’s pretty sweet. That’s a good idea.
[00:49:36] Christina: were, were, were you in, were like, did you become a drummer because of, because of them, because of Tommy Lee.
[00:49:41] Jeffrey: Did I become, no, I was already a drummer, but he, he just was such a charismatic character, you know, like, I loved how if you watch how his body moves when he is drumming, it’s like there are, there are no drummers that look like that when they’re drumming. Like he just, he had, he, his body was so [00:50:00] into that role.
Um, and, and I just found it amazing and I thought it was great when he was on a crane and being turned upside down and shit. It looks really stupid now. And if you watch the YouTube, we probably talked about this in our first, our first episode together, but like, if you watch the YouTube recordings of those solos, they’re not super good.
And they’re not good because he is upside down. You know? It’s just like, Jesus. One, my, my closing bit on this is one of the things that I enjoyed about the Taylor Hawkins tribute show. Um, the one in LA is that Nikki six. and Tommy Lee played a couple of Motley Crew songs with Foo Fighters and others helping to sing or whatever.
And it was just really cool to like see those songs being performed like super competently and like not in the, not in the context of just utter terrible cheese
[00:50:56] Brett: Yeah,
[00:50:57] Jeffrey: like just hot melting, [00:51:00] drowning cheese. And I was like, oh yeah, these songs are still pretty good . So anyway, that’s mine. What about you, Christina?
[00:51:08] Brett: I’m curious about Christina’s answer to this.
[00:51:11] Christina: So the first thing that I ever loved, the way that you loved Motley Crew, I think, was the TV show saved by the Bell. But when I was like six years old, but the first thing I ever really, really loved and had like an outstanding love for and like I’d merch for, and that, like, I, I didn’t think about it the way that you thought about Molly Crew because when I say what this is, you’ll completely understand why, but that I genuinely loved was Sesame Street.
[00:51:39] Jeffrey: Yes.
[00:51:40] Christina: Sesame Street. Like I loved it so much as a kid and I had like the sleeping bag and I had like the stuffed animals and I would go to Sesame Street Live and I had like, You know, I would watch it and I had the, the, the tapes and, um, I had some of the books and, and [00:52:00] I loved it. I loved it so much and, and I don’t know why I loved, you know, Sesame Street and the Muppets and, and all of it, but it wasn’t just the Muppets, right?
Like I, I, I liked the humans too. Like I wanted to marry Bob and,
[00:52:12] Jeffrey: yeah. Bob.
[00:52:13] Christina: Gordon was great and, and, and Luis, I remember when Luis and Maria got married, like that was like a whole special episode. And like, I loved, loved, loved, love Sesame Street and by extension Jim Henson, like, I just like, loved that.
Um, and, uh, Yeah, I, I’m still a fan. Like I, I still love Sesame Street. I met, um, I was very fortunate that I got to meet Carol Spinney, uh, who, uh, was the voice of Oscar and Big Bird and, and, and, and played Big Bird when he came to Mashable to do a, a collab between, uh, uh, Oscar, the Grouch and Grumpy Cat. And it was, and it was a close set.
And, and, and they let me come in and I was off of a red eye. And I’ll never [00:53:00] forget this, like, I got in at like six or 7:00 AM and I went straight to the office. Like I had like my bags with me. I was just getting in from San Francisco and I, I, I have a photo and I look like shit, but there’s a photo of me and Oscar and I got to meet Carol spinning, and I got to tell him that, like to thank him for my childhood and like, I cried like a baby.
Like I’m gonna cry right now even thinking about it because I got to like tell this guy like, Thank you for that. I had the same thing when I met the, um, the current, uh, voice of Bert, who wasn’t even my Bert, but he was, he was, you know, he took over, um, uh, like I think in the, in the, uh, ladies early nineties cuz I, I don’t remember if Jim Henson was, was a voice of Bert or not.
Um, but, but he, um, took over in the early nineties. So this guy wasn’t even really my Burt and, um, I mean, there might have been some overlap, but, but not, not great one. And I like cried when I met him and I was like, thank you for, for what you do and what you bring out to kids because it’s, it’s [00:54:00] magical what they do and when you know, when you see them.
Especially like when I’ve been able to, luckily been fortunate to see those, uh, puppeteers. How. Are with them. And like it is like they are the puppet is, you know, you don’t even look at the human like you’re interacting with a puppet. It’s, it’s, it’s unreal. And, and, and they, they clearly love what they do so much because they could make more money doing other things.
And everybody who’s involved with, with that, except for I guess the licensing people, uh, could be making so much more money than what they do with, with Sesame Street and, and those types of things. And yet, uh, they do it anyway and, uh, and they do it because they love it and they do it because they, they know that it helps people and because it like, touches kids in like a really special way.
And so, uh, yeah, like I, I will never, always be so grateful that I got to like, tell Carol Spinney like, thank you for, you know, childhood.
[00:54:55] Brett: Yeah. That’s awesome. Did you, do you remember the Muppet babies?[00:55:00]
[00:55:00] Jeffrey: Of course.
[00:55:01] Christina: babies. We make our dreams come true. Yeah. I love
[00:55:04] Jeffrey: There’s your answer.
[00:55:05] Brett: My first, my first rock and roll album was the Muppet Baby’s Rocket to the Moom, which I had on a seven inch record that I played on. I can, I can picture it exactly this like play school record player. I
[00:55:21] Christina: Yeah.
[00:55:22] Brett: Anyway, so, so the Muppet Babies Rocket to the Moom was like, I had, I literally only listened to classical and I had heard a little bit of the Boston Pops, um, uh, like classical versions of pop songs and like the Star Wars theme and stuff like that. But I had never heard a four on the floor rock and roll.
[00:55:45] Jeffrey: roll
[00:55:47] Brett: Up until that point, and the Muppet babies rocket to the Moom Moom, I was like, snap, snap. Oh, I get this, like this, this speaks to my soul. And, and that was the beginning of a [00:56:00] journey into rock and roll for me. But I absolutely owe it to the Muppet babies.
[00:56:04] Jeffrey: that’s awesome. I love it. I love it. I, you were, when you brought them Muppet babies and, and when Christina brought up, um, Sesame Street, I was like, wait, mine is Garfield I had like the bedspread, I had, I got all the books from my parents’
[00:56:21] Brett: is, what is what, what about Garfield Garners any kind of obsession?
[00:56:27] Jeffrey: Yeah. No, I
[00:56:28] Christina: Brett, there there are a lot of people who love Garfield is actually kind of
[00:56:30] Brett: really?
[00:56:31] Jeffrey: I will say that when my kids had a Garfield phase, I was like, I don’t remember why I liked this, but I loved him.
He was a grump. He didn’t like Mondays. He was like, he was sassing off to the, to the clueless adult in his life. You know,
[00:56:47] Brett: you, did you also love Kathy?
[00:56:50] Jeffrey: no, I wasn’t the Kathy fan,
[00:56:52] Christina: See and I only knew Gar. No, no, no. Was this just the comic strip? I was gonna say cuz I remember Garfield primarily from the animated show and, [00:57:00] and
[00:57:00] Jeffrey: I watched the cartoon. I watched the cartoon, but I was a huge fan of the books which I could get at my parents’ work. And yes, that is the same place that that carried all the porn. Um,
[00:57:11] Christina: Because they,
[00:57:11] Jeffrey: and, and I, and I also,
[00:57:13] Christina: stuff. Yeah.
[00:57:14] Jeffrey: also just loved those books were rectangular. Um, they were all the same size and, and I loved how they were different.
They felt different from any other book, which was really exciting. But another fan thing I realized that ties back to one of our conversations from last episode is that. When I, because again, my, my parents worked at a magazine distribution company, which means that I was regularly in a warehouse, massive Costco size warehouse full of every magazine that exists and a lot of romance novels.
And, um, and so I had, I would come home, one visit, I would fill a box with Circus Magazine, hit Parader, Quang, like all these, uh, in this case, like kind of rock hard, rock and metal magazines and, you know, rolling Stone and I mean, everything, right? And so I had a [00:58:00] knowledge about the bands I loved that was quite current, given that there was no internet because I was constantly reading the newest interviews with them or, or reviews or whatever it was.
And I, I don’t think about that often enough. I had, I had something much closer to the internet than most of my friends by being able to, you know, there was a magazine called Soldier of Fortune. Soldier of
[00:58:22] Brett: Oh man.
[00:58:23] Jeffrey: and, but be, before they got busted for it, there were people in the back advertising their services as mercenaries.
Yeah. Like, I mean, like, I, I had the whole, there was a magazine called Prison Life. Like I, it was just like I had everything in front of me. Anyhow, I’m going off on a
[00:58:39] Brett: You can, you can imagine how a kid from my background grew up with a certain survivalist bent. Um, that is, that is common for fundamentalists. Um, but yeah, like, uh, I used to run around in the woods with, uh, an army helmet and full camo, and we would read Soldier of Fortune and, um, you know, [00:59:00] imagine someday when we could offer our mercenary services to people in the back of Soldier of Fortune,
[00:59:06] Jeffrey: I mean, what’s crazy is in this case, right, these were Vietnam vets. It was pretty
[00:59:10] Brett: Uh oh, yeah.
[00:59:11] Jeffrey: these were guys that were like, the war’s been off for 10 years and I don’t know what to do with myself.
[00:59:16] Brett: It, it was, it was for real. It was scary shit.
[00:59:20] Jeffrey: that’s a funny to go from Muppet babies to that
[00:59:23] Brett: Soldier of Muppet babies. Um,
[00:59:26] Jeffrey: this
[00:59:27] Christina: although, although, although Muppet babies did so many parodies, you know, cause that was their
[00:59:30] Jeffrey: yeah, that’s a good point.
[00:59:32] Christina: you, you, you could imagine them doing like a parody of like
[00:59:35] Jeffrey: Totally. Totally. Yes.
[00:59:39] Brett: of Fortune. I I would watch that. I would watch that.
[00:59:43] Jeffrey: uh, show title. Um, this has been awesome.
[00:59:50] Christina: will.
[00:59:50] Brett: Yes. Um, so we only in each episode we got through one question each. We could continue to do this. I say we put it out to the listeners. [01:00:00] If you wanna hear another episode of, of Christina, Brett and Jeff interviewing each other with pie in the sky questions. Uh, let us know. Otherwise we will get back to our regular programming.
We are now the, the we. So full transparency, we did this, uh, two part series. We recorded it in one day because we want to get on a Monday publishing schedule. Uh, so we have weekends to edit and we needed to get a week ahead. So we did this long Saturday.
[01:00:32] Jeffrey: Sorry, Garfield.
[01:00:34] Brett: Sorry, Garfield. Um, and, and we are now officially back on track, uh, with sponsors and whatnot, so we are happy to continue doing this.
This has been truly a blast and, uh, uh, an in-depth look into psyches, um, that I’ve really enjoyed. But we can also get back to the usual, the usual Overtired shtick. [01:01:00] Um, so let us know. Let us know. Ping us, ping us on Twitter. Um, our, our Macedon account that doesn’t exist yet. Or on the discord or, or you know, if you Yeah,
[01:01:14] Christina: whatever. And, and also let us know, like, uh, if you have suggestions for where we should go for Mask on or what we should do for that. Or if you want us there, like if you’re there, like, we’d love to hear from, from you, the listeners, if that’s something that we should, we should be investing in, uh, for the
[01:01:28] Brett: yeah.
[01:01:29] Jeffrey: One, one final recommendation to everybody, including and especially you two. Have you ever seen Garfield minus Garfield online?
[01:01:36] Christina: Yes.
[01:01:37] Jeffrey: Garfield
[01:01:38] Christina: one
[01:01:38] Jeffrey: strips with Garfield removed,
[01:01:40] Christina: It’s
[01:01:40] Jeffrey: and John, John goes from like introspective to totally insane. I put a link in the show notes. It’s magical. Garfield minus Garfield
[01:01:49] Christina: It’s absolutely the best. I haven’t thought about them forever, but yeah. That, that is, that’s like one of those like peak, like, like that, that’s like one of those, like, like, like late, late, late, late odds, early 2010s. [01:02:00] Like things that’s just like such like a perfect, like encapsulation of like that, like time on the
[01:02:07] Jeffrey: Like the GI Joe PSAs. Do you remember those? Did you
[01:02:09] Christina: Yes, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Cause cuz yeah. Oh yeah. Cause
[01:02:12] Jeffrey: the ones that were turned into, they were dubbed over.
[01:02:15] Christina: Well, yeah, cuz Garfield, mine, Garfield was, was, was a, was a Tumblr or, or still is a Tumblr, I guess.
[01:02:21] Jeffrey: Yeah, that’s right. That’s right. The, the GI Joe PSAs would be like a kid fell his bike and the GI Joe Guy shows up and instead of saying what he actually says, he says, who wants a body massage? Anyhow, all right. Get some sleep.
[01:02:40] Brett: Get some sleep.
[01:02:41] Christina: and get some
[01:02:42] Outro: The.
Get engrossed in part 1 of a 2? part series where our hosts interview each other with some very creative questions. Much discussion ensues.
Kolide ensures only secure devices can access your cloud apps. It’s Zero Trust tailor-made for Okta. Book a demo today at Kolide.com/overtired.
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BackBeat Media Podcast Network
Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptI Have a Question Part 1
[00:00:00] Brett:
Hello and welcome to two very special episodes of Overtired. I am here as a, this is Brett Terpstra. Hi. Hi. Hi. Um, hey. Um, so I am here with Jeff Severance Gunzel and Christina Warren, and we are going to do two episodes where each of us takes a turn, asking a kind of, we’ll say, creative open-ended interview question.
Uh, and the other two then answer. And I, I assume we’ll end up answering our own question too, because someone will say, well, yeah, but what about you? What do you think? Um, so we are going to forego the mental health corner this week. I feel like our answers will probably give you a good insight into our mental health.
[00:00:52] Jeff: now and, and past.
[00:00:54] Brett: And we have, we have some questions about apps and technologies that I think will [00:01:00] satisfy the need for a gratitude segment. Uh, so without further ado, let’s, uh, let’s get into the, the q and a time. I should before. Okay. No, let’s warm up. Let’s warm up a little.
[00:01:14] Jeff: Let’s warm up a little, do some stretches or something,
[00:01:17] Brett: Yeah. Yeah. Some jumping jacks, calisthenics, I think they call it some verbal calisthenics.
[00:01:26] Jeff: I’m good. I, I took my son to a college tour yesterday, um, as somebody who did not go to college that was super novel. It’s the second time I’ve done that. Um, we’ll do more and, uh, it’s fun. It’s fun. Kind of one of those things that makes you feel old, but in a good way.
[00:01:46] Brett: How are you, Christina?
[00:01:48] Christina: Well, I’m tired. Um, although I’m like gonna be completely awake and, and happy to do this, I, um, I had like two hours of sleep. And then I had a really weird, like, lucid dream where I [00:02:00] thought that we were recording a little bit later than we were. Um, but I also watched that, uh, that Murda family, uh, murders, uh, uh, Netflix series because of the, the Alec Murda trial that, uh, ended this week, which, uh, I like belatedly kind of became obsessed with.
And, um, so I had weird, like intermingling dreams about some of that stuff, but I’m fine.
[00:02:27] Brett: were there murders in your dream about this podcast?
[00:02:31] Christina: There were not,
[00:02:32] Brett: Okay.
[00:02:33] Christina: unfortunately, I, I, I did
[00:02:34] Brett: Yeah. That could have been
[00:02:35] Christina: not dream of kill. I mean, that would’ve been interesting for, for, for our, our conversation to focus like, yeah, I dream of killing both of you, but no, I didn’t
[00:02:41] Jeff: It was strictly a lucid admin dream.
[00:02:44] Christina: Yeah, it was, it was true. This is, I was gonna say, my lucid dreams are like the most boring things ever.
Whereas like I look at my phone and I’m texting with people and I’m like, oh, I have 30 more minutes to sleep. Like that’s literally like
[00:02:59] Brett: You [00:03:00] dream about waking up and going back to bed. All right,
[00:03:02] Christina: Basically.
[00:03:05] Jeff: That’s awesome.
[00:03:06] Brett: quick question before we roll. I have noticed that Gen Xers love the bomb, and I think my, my theory is that Gen Xers love the F-bomb more than the surrounding generations. Um, not elder millennials. Elder millennials still love the F-bomb, but you talk to younger millennials and you talk to Gen Z. Like ones that are old enough to comfortably swear.
Um, and, and it fe like I drop the F-bomb and it feels uncomfortable. It feels uncomfortable with certain types of boomer and silent generation people. There are always exceptions. There are always people who, you know, swear a lot. There have been age as old as time swearing is, but there’s something like a Gen Xer will just f this and F that and fuck you, you fucking fuck.
And like, I feel like we [00:04:00] grew up on Tarantino and it just, what do you guys think?
[00:04:05] Christina: I think you’re totally wrong. I think that like Boomer, no, I think I, I think the boomers like, might have more of an aversion to it and, and I think you can credit Gen Xs with maybe like the tarantinos and whatnot of a popularizing, some of it, although you could make the same argument that fucking Scorsese, like honestly, you know, really led to that.
And, and he’s a boomer. But I, if you listen to popular music and, and everything else, like especially hip hop music, which has been the like defining force in culture for the last. 25, 30 years. It’s definitely not Gen X. Uh, especially not the hip hop that’s out now. Like none of it is. Um, they drop the all the time.
Like TV shows now. Like especially now we’re in an era
[00:04:49] Brett: But I’m, I’m not talking about media though. I’m talking about conversations
[00:04:54] Christina: but I’m talking about people. Yeah, but I’m talking about people too. Like, because it’s in the media and [00:05:00] the media at this point, the people who are creating it, making it are not Gen Xers. Um, they’re not. So it’s like, no, I, I, I, I don’t, I don’t think so.
Like,
[00:05:09] Brett: so you think it’s all in my head?
[00:05:11] Christina: I think that people might, you might be noticing people’s reaction to you saying words, but I don’t think it has anything to do with, with the, the lack.
[00:05:21] Brett: like to make it a generational thing as a broad. Characterization. Um, and, and I know this very much relies on anecdotal evidence. Um, I’m just, I’m computing, I’m computing all the conversations I’ve had in the last year and realizing, I swear a lot, and obviously they’re like, I can’t swear on my parents.
Um, but I don’t, I don’t ascribe that to their entire generation. Um, you know, boomers do say the
[00:05:52] Jeff: I mean, it’s, uh, been a rhetorical friend to humanity
[00:05:56] Brett: Yeah.
[00:05:57] Jeff: quite some time. I, I have a very specific [00:06:00] memory from second grade. I was walking home, I was a latchkey kid and I was walking home from school with my buddy and I said, you know, I’m gonna try to stop swearing so much. You know,
[00:06:14] Brett: I remember in, I was in would’ve been I think the equivalent of third grade. uh, I was getting picked on by a bully and I called him an f n a hole. And for me that was like, I can’t believe I just said that I felt so guilty. Um, and then he made fun of me because I couldn’t actually swear. Um, so
[00:06:39] Christina: fair?
[00:06:40] Brett: that didn’t help with the bullying at all.
[00:06:42] Christina: no, that made it worse. I bet. Because he is like, you fucking nerd. You can’t even say, fuck, what the fuck. You freaking loser. You fucking loser. Yeah. Uh, I’m sure that didn’t help. I didn’t say so I, my sister taught me the curse words and I didn’t curse a lot until probably middle school.
And then I never stopped, [00:07:00] but I did like, but I also didn’t take like the Lord’s name in vain until I was like 11 or 12. And then I started saying God all the time and feeling bad about it. But then it slowly became desensitized and I was like, I don’t care.
[00:07:13] Brett: yeah, we were not allowed to say, oh my God. We had to
[00:07:17] Christina: same. Oh, same, which, which, which then like
[00:07:19] Brett: even say, geez, we couldn’t say, oh geez. Cuz that was too close to Jesus
[00:07:25] Jeff: I remember taunting, taunting my teacher in like fifth grade. I would just go, fuck without the ck. She’d be like, stop it. I’m like, I didn’t swear. I just said fuck. And I’d be like, shit. She’d be like, stop it,
[00:07:36] Brett: my girlfriend’s sister has, um, a daughter who she was trying to get out of the habit of saying, oh my God. And I don’t think it was for religious reasons, it was just because she said it so much, just like always. Oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. Um, but she says, she has a little bit of a speech thing and she says, oh my God.
Oh my God. And so as, as her like, kind of, [00:08:00] uh, negotiation with this, she would go, oh my God.
[00:08:05] Jeff: Just a little bit off to the side
[00:08:07] Brett: Yeah.
[00:08:07] Jeff: just to please the people in the back.
[00:08:10] Brett: All right. Um, so Jeff, do you wanna kick us off with, uh, an interview question?
[00:08:17] Jeff: Oh yeah. Okay. I’m really excited about this. I also like that we shared them with each other in advance, actually. Um, it helps. Okay, so I, here’s a question. This is, let’s start with a tech question. Okay. If you could experience, and Christina, you start, if you could experience any tech for the first time again, why?
Again,
[00:08:41] Christina: Okay. So are we talking about tech that I’ve experienced or tech that like maybe predated me or
[00:08:47] Jeff: something that it, I would say it, it’s in your lifetime. It’s something that you did yourself. Experience for the first time, but maybe you were a lot younger or maybe you just didn’t get it at that point or whatever. Or you just, it was such a nice experience, you’d like to go [00:09:00] back to it.
[00:09:01] Christina: Okay. So I think that for me it’s probably a cross between like, The internet
[00:09:12] Jeff: Hmm.
[00:09:13] Christina: or video games. Um, what’s interesting to me about the internet, and that’s I think one of video games I loved and I loved them from the minute I ever saw them, but I saw them so early that it’s hard for me to experience like what my first experience with it was, right?
Because it basically had an Nintendo from the time I was born, basically. So it’s hard for me to like, put that into a context of a world we didn’t have it. Um, whereas the internet, like the worldwide web I read about before I ever used, I read about in a magazine
[00:09:46] Brett: Pc PC world.
[00:09:48] Christina: um, for me it was actually weirdly, it was Nintendo Power.
It was, uh, because they were talking about the x uh, link or X browse. It was, it was a I’ll, I’ll, I’ll find it, but it was basically a cartridge that would [00:10:00] connect you to the worldwide web and, um, For, for the Super Nintendo, sorry, not the Nintendo 64 for the Super Nintendo. And, um, it was, uh, um, uhand, there we go.
And
[00:10:13] Brett: browser on a cartridge.
[00:10:15] Christina: it was, it was a, it was a modem is what it
[00:10:17] Brett: Oh,
[00:10:18] Christina: and it, it, it was called Expand. It was for the Genesis and the Super Nintendo. And it was a modem that would let you connect to a, not the full worldwide web, because not This was 1994 when
[00:10:31] Brett: Every, everything was corralled by like AOL and CompuServe. That in
[00:10:35] Christina: I I I was gonna say it was basically internet.
It was basically like a, what were those called? Uh, uh, uh, um, they weren’t internet service providers. They were like, um, online, um, uh, service or
[00:10:44] Brett: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:10:46] Christina: like an online service thing, kind of like a prodigy, I think Prodigy might have even, um, run, um, their, um, their system. And then the idea too was that you could potentially, Um, like, uh, online games with people and which, which in [00:11:00] that way was sort of similar to the Sega Channel, which used cable, so that was better to, to kind of stream games.
But this was, this was an actual modem,
[00:11:08] Jeff: Used cable. Like a, like what do you mean?
[00:11:10] Christina: I mean like, like cable television.
[00:11:11] Jeff: Cable television.
[00:11:12] Christina: So that’s why it was called the Sega Channel because it was a, a system where you would have a special cartridge that connected to cable tv, and then you could basically, um, stream, um, games, um, because you had access to a whole library of
[00:11:25] Jeff: neither did I. Did you have any of those
[00:11:28] Christina: Um, I had friends who had, um, a cable, uh, Sega channel. Um, and so I played that like in, in fourth or fifth grade, and you could rent Theban from Blockbuster, but it was expensive. So, but, but, but, but, but I, but I rented, it was, it was like 15 cents an hour or, or I don’t remember how much it was. It was like $3 an hour or something.
I don’t remember how much it was, but it was expensive. But you could rent it. Oh, no. So here’s what it was. It was available blockbuster video for $20, a equivalent of $40 and 2021 with additional charges based on usage. And one had a monthly fee of [00:12:00] $5 and allowed the user to connect the service up to 50 times per month with each additional connection costing 15 cents.
And the other had a monthly fee of $10 for unlimited connections. And I did rent it once I think. , but I might be inventing that in my head. But regardless, I read about, this was the first time I’d ever read about like a o l or any of these things. And I’d used Usenet, but I, that didn’t really click with me.
I didn’t really know what I was doing. And, and this was like a graphical thing and it was describing all the stuff that you could do. And my mind, just like the possibilities just unfolded before me. And so when I finally used the internet, like, and then the world wide up for the first time, like a year later, like again, like I saw everything that we’re doing now.
I didn’t know exactly how advanced it would be and I had no idea how far it would go, but like, I got it. I instantly got it and, and it was my first love and, and it remains my, my, my biggest love. And, and so [00:13:00] if I could go back and experience anything again, it would be like the worldwide web. Like that would be it.
[00:13:05] Brett: Because of the feelings it causing you, like the amazement and the Yeah.
[00:13:10] Christina: the amazement. And, and, and not only that, but like, I instantly understood. I was like, this is going to change everything. Like I, I, I just knew, I was like, the idea of, I was like, oh, you can look things up, you can create things, you can link to other things. You can have images, you can, you know, um, uh, have it as a way to tell your own stories and do your own stuff.
Like, it just instantly made sense to me. I was like, oh, this is gonna change everything. Like I, I, uh, I went to the library and I rented, uh, check out two books, one on, on modems and one on the stock market. And the librarian was such an idiot. And she was like, but not together, right? Because those things would never go together.
And I’m like, that, and at, and at that point they already had for, for, for decades. You know, it’s not the eighties,
[00:13:51] Jeff: But not together.
[00:13:52] Christina: but not together. Right. And it was like, like a year later, like the whole thing was intertwined and you had, um, uh, [00:14:00] uh, what’s the, um, e-trade and, and all of those, which, you know, became like these massive things.
So it was really, it’s so funny that she was like, oh, but not together, not modems
[00:14:08] Jeff: She’s like, I clearly global finance would not intermingle with this internet thing.
[00:14:14] Christina: and, and, and, and, and, and I was like, no separate. But then when I was reading about them, I was like, oh no, obviously these are going to be, I mean, you know, I realized the high finance had already had been, but I was like, oh, obviously individual trades are going to happen this way. And they did like almost immediately.
So I, I I, I would re-experience, uh, the worldwide web because. A, the feeling like you said B, like I just, it’s one of the few times in my life where I’ve seen something. I even got a glimpse of it, even reading about it, and I was like, oh yeah, no, this is the future. This changes everything. This makes complete sense and this is exactly what we will all be doing for the rest of our lives.
[00:14:49] Brett: Yeah,
[00:14:50] Jeff: so cool. Do you, I know this is still inside of the question, sorry, but I have to know, um, if you all remember the very first act you did on the internet, [00:15:00] like, do you remember when you logged on and you were like, this is the. Or was it something like more like you’re in college and there’s emails
[00:15:07] Brett: I think, yeah, no, I, I think email was the first thing I did.
[00:15:12] Christina: I had a Juno account.
[00:15:14] Jeff: yeah, I had a Juno account. Planted hands
[00:15:18] Brett: Yeah,
[00:15:18] Jeff: Duck. I did, um, I, uh, I made, I was with my brother the first time I went on the internet and we did film it. But unfortunately my brother and I, when we’re together, our collective IQ and our general emotional intelligence just tanks. And, and you can imagine some of the decisions we may have tried to make once we were finally on this thing where you can see anything.
Um, and uh, so that’s not
[00:15:42] Brett: with just, with just 20 minute time investment, you can download a single JPEG of a nude woman
[00:15:47] Jeff: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I think it’s coming in, I think it’s coming in . Exactly.
[00:15:55] Brett: like, like printing it on a dot matrix printer. Um, [00:16:00] so is do I, is it
[00:16:01] Christina: You good out? Yes.
[00:16:02] Jeff: It’s your.
[00:16:03] Brett: so mine’s actually very similar, just goes back a little farther. The first time I logged and, and this, so there’s two equivalent experiences for me. One is the first time I logged into Phyto net, or no, no, no, not Phyto, um, uh, gopher from an As 400 and, and just started, uh, flipping through the equivalent of library stacks worth of information and realizing like what I had at my fingertips.
That was literally an intoxicating experience. And the other equivalent experience would’ve been the first time I logged onto a bbbs and, and felt like I was part of a community. Like I had been using computers for 10 years before that. Um, and, and me and my friends would get together and we, we would hack and write code.
Uh, but it was, it was this small group of friends and suddenly I’m on a P B S [00:17:00] that has maybe 500 users. And, and I’m communicating not simultaneously, everything’s async, but I’m communicating with 500 people and we are sharing interests and likes and, and text-based role playing games and, and, uh, sure porn, but like, it was, it was communal.
And that sense of community combined with the, what felt like limitless information, uh, like you could find anything you wanted to, uh, that first time you feel that. And I don’t know what it’s like for a kid today who literally, like, as soon as they’re old enough to hold an iPad, they have access to all of this.
I don’t know if they get that same like, oh my God, everything’s here. Um, as we did when it first became available. But that, and the reason I would wanna experience it again, is just that sense of intoxication. Uh, it like, so the, the new field, uh, the emerging [00:18:00] field of ai. Is is as big a change, like potentially as big a change, um, to the world as the internet was.
Um, but it, but it’s not intoxicating me in the same way. It’s not, I’m not getting the same chills from it,
[00:18:17] Christina: I, I’m, I’m not,
[00:18:18] Brett: getting different chills.
[00:18:19] Christina: I’m not getting the exact same shuls, but I have a similar feeling like this is obviously the future and we’re all going to be doing this and this is, this is how things are going to be. Like. I have that same feeling, but I’m, but I’m with you. Like the intoxication thing is different and Yeah, I’d be interested to know like how your kids would answer this, Jeff, because they’ve grown up always having access to the internet.
Like my generation was the first where like we were, you know, spent like our, our formative years online, but we did have a pre demarcation, like before the web and you know, like after, uh, we, we, we were, you know, young, but we were, we, we had, you know, we had that demarcation thing and, you know, [00:19:00] um, people who are, uh, younger than me don’t have as much of that, but still have some of it because wide broadband wasn’t available.
You know, people, your kid’s age and your son’s age and younger, like literally have never not, it’s not even that, they just haven’t always had the internet. They have, they’ve always had broadband
[00:19:16] Jeff: They’ve always had iPhones.
[00:19:17] Christina: had iPhones. That’s what I’m saying. Right.
[00:19:19] Jeff: Yeah. Whether it was ours or they’re ultimately
[00:19:21] Christina: Right. So, so that’s, that’s a a, a different sort of thing. You know.
[00:19:26] Jeff: Yeah. It’s interesting because they, they together, um, ha, have built a collection of old tech stepping backwards bit by bit until finally they have this like Windows 95 machine and there’s a DOS machine here. And like when you, one thing that’s, I highly recommend doing it. I’m sure it can be done in an emulator, but I did this yesterday just turning on a Windows 95 computer and reading how it talks to you.
Like, would you like to access the worldwide web? An unlimited amount of electronic communication. You know, it’s like, yeah, yeah. Click, yeah, I want to get online, [00:20:00] whatever. Just settle down. Um, and so they definitely have kind of, they almost seem to be seeking what that was like. But you know, when I think about my first time on the internet, like I had been, I have been like a hunter gatherer researcher, almost like from my youngest age.
And when I think about what it took me to find certain albums or bootlegs or magazine interviews, what it meant to be a fan, which we can talk about later, um, in pre-internet, like that was a lot of goddamn work. It’s like, it’s like grandpa went to the mine every day, you know?
[00:20:31] Brett: there was this, there was this weird thing for us too, because like we grew up in the era of 900 numbers where you would
[00:20:39] Jeff: Yes. Yes.
[00:20:41] Brett: you wanted King’s Quest advice or someone to talk you through your lonely night, you were paying 25 to 50 cents a minute to get this. And then Prodigy and CompuServe and AOL were all pay as you go services.
And every time you connected your modem, you were thinking, [00:21:00] Oh God, I gotta do this fast. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get this done and get offline. Um, because you’re paying for every minute you’re on
[00:21:08] Christina: You, you’re, you’re paying for every minute. And, and again, like I, I, you know, because I, cause I’m just enough younger that, that it, that it was different. Like it started to be, they started off with the unlimited plans or more hours or whatnot. Um, and also modems were, were faster. Like my first, you know, modem I think was a 14 four, um, uh, modem that we had, um, connected to the laptop.
Um, and, uh, that, that I bought like an external modem or something. And, um, granted my family was a little bit later at adopting this than people who were already on this in the eighties. But the difference too is like you were, not only did you have to get on and get fast, but it was also because speeds were so much slower.
A lot of things were designed around like you downloading and getting off, right? So like a BS was that you would upload like your information, like you, like send your message or whatever, but you would, you know, download a bunch of stuff and then get offline.
[00:21:59] Brett: And then you [00:22:00] would check back the next day to get responses to your
[00:22:03] Christina: exactly. And, and well, and I, and I even remember that, you know, with my Juno account, it was because it, it wasn’t Webmail, it was like an actual application that had its own dialer that was different than like the I s P dialer, right?
So it was, it was not a, a web thing like that wasn’t until Hotmail. And so you would log in on this, on this program that had like a free, you know, dial-in number. And that was one of the advantages of Juno. It was like free email. It was like one of the first ones, but you didn’t have to have the corresponding, you know, AOL or Prodigy or whatever service.
And so you’d log into that number and you’d download your mail, um, or you’d stay connected to, you know, read other messages coming in and you’d write your stuff and you’d send it off and then, and then, you know, you, you’d disconnect and, um, but you’d have to reconnect a bunch of times to, you know, throughout the day to, to check your mail unless you, you know, were some fancy person who had like a separate phone line.
Um, and, um, so it’s a very different experience than, you know, [00:23:00] Always having access to stuff. Uh, but, but to your point, Jeff, like, yeah. For you as always being a hunter-gatherer researcher type like internet must have like blown your mind because I mean, I remember not well, but I do remember like, you know, using libraries before, like with card catalogs.
I think the public library had computerized systems, but you just think about how much research changed
[00:23:24] Jeff: oh my God. My God. Yeah. Especially someone who loves, as a researcher now looking across things like, I was showing my boys a card catalog and I’m like, this is how, this is literally how you, and they’re like, what? I’m like, yeah, it’s fucked up. It is fucked up.
[00:23:40] Christina: yeah. Yeah. I, I remember having to go to like some of the better public libraries or having to go to some of the university public libraries to access certain things and even certain databases, right? Like, I remember like, like in elementary school, like making my mom take me to the University of Georgia.
Libraries so that I could do research on certain things [00:24:00] because they had better, um, like, and I think I went to the Georgia State Library once too, but the, the u g A one was, uh, at the time was nicer and to, to, you know, go through like different research databases to be able to do something for a project because otherwise, you know, you’d have to go from like branch to branch to try to find all these books.
And they didn’t have stuff scanned in like newspaper. I mean, you know, they had microfiche, but it wasn’t like it was you. But that was still like a per branch thing.
[00:24:27] Jeff: yeah, yeah,
[00:24:28] Christina: school, I remember having to do some research and because everything wasn’t digitized, having to go to like a specific branch to the library that had every issue of like the New York Times and the Atlanta Journal Constitution and some other papers backed like the 18 hundreds and having to go through the microfiche
[00:24:45] Jeff: Micro fish.
[00:24:46] Christina: having to, um, do go to a specific branch because it wasn’t all network connected.
[00:24:53] Jeff: Right, right, right.
[00:24:55] Christina: is unfathomable. I’m like, okay, you might be still be seeing like a scanned copy of something and, and, [00:25:00] or maybe poorly ocr and I’d prefer a scan, honestly. But, um, you know, you don’t have to go to a specific library branch to do it
[00:25:08] Jeff: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:09] Christina: that’s all gone. And, and you know, that’s just 20 years ago.
[00:25:14] Jeff: Totally. Totally. Um, can I answer my own question?
[00:25:18] Christina: course.
[00:25:18] Jeff: Um, the first part’s not the answer. So my mom worked in it from, you know, the sixties or late sixties. She, when she was, you know, she’d have nightmares that she was carrying the computer cards that were all collated in order, and then she’d dropped them all and she’d wake up like sweating and screaming.
[00:25:33] Brett: my mom told me about the same nightmare.
[00:25:36] Jeff: Yeah, , which you can imagine cuz you look at like, there’s, you’re talking stacks, right?
[00:25:41] Christina: yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:42] Jeff: so, um, and in fact, just a, a quick like PC thing, like the reason we had a PC in our house is as PCs started to become more common in offices, for her to be able to get a job, she had to be able to say, I know how to use a pc.
You know, she had told me this story once too, where, uh, her office had [00:26:00] just started bringing in PCs for the first time and, and nobody had used them or used mouses or anything like that. And a woman came into her office, one of the people in the office said, I can’t get my mouse to work. Can you come in her office and, and tell me how?
And she goes in and she was holding it on the wrong plane and she was like holding it up like you’re waving at someone and moving it around in the air and it’s like, you are way ahead of your time, like
[00:26:20] Christina: super ahead of her time.
[00:26:21] Brett: That le that leads into, into one of my questions. We’ll get there though.
[00:26:25] Jeff: Okay. So anyhow, I have put, I don’t know if both you’re in Quip or not, but I’ve put pictures of my first computer, um, which is an i b M system, three room size computer. It was
[00:26:35] Christina: Oh my God,
[00:26:36] Jeff: It belonged, it belonged to the magazine distributor. Go for news. Speaking of porn, that’s how they made all our money. Um, and there is a little, you know, green and black screen in there and I used to play hangman on
[00:26:47] Brett: mm-hmm.
[00:26:48] Christina: that’s
[00:26:49] Jeff: And I would love, I would love to be able to go back and experience it for the first time, but, uh, uh, as me now , just to be able to get in there and play around, [00:27:00] play hangman, like see how much memory was in that room, , um, which I’ll put, I don’t know if we can put images in the show notes. Can we, I can
[00:27:09] Brett: uh, yeah, we can fit it in
[00:27:10] Jeff: And that printer, that’s my mom. My mom’s sitting next to that. My mom’s sitting next to that printer. Look at the size of that printer. . She’s just waiting for it to create. If you look close, it’s f it’s like financial reports. She’s just waiting for it to finish. But I assume she’s gotta stay there because you never know if it’s gonna get all jammed up.
You know what I mean?
[00:27:29] Christina: Oh, totally. Totally. And that was, that was got, I mean, I don’t even wanna think about how many tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars that printer
[00:27:35] Jeff: my God, can you imagine, can you imagine all the cook, the books for a porn dealer? Um, Anyhow, I would love to go in that computer room. It was a false floor and underneath it were all the wires and there was venting down there. I used to sit on the floor and color and I could pop open one of those things.
I mean, that whole room was the infrastructure of this one machine and all of its data . So anyway, I would love to [00:28:00] just walk into that room and, and play.
[00:28:02] Christina: Yeah.
[00:28:03] Brett: of my first apps that I ever wrote was Hangman in Basic.
[00:28:08] Jeff: Awesome,
[00:28:09] Brett: Yeah.
[00:28:10] Jeff: I love it. I love it. All right, who’s next?
[00:28:13] Brett: Um, I have a question.
[00:28:15] Christina: Yes. Go for it.
[00:28:17] Brett: All right. So I, I’m gonna pick my last question first. If you could pick, if you could imagine the perfect input device for a computer or for, for any, any platform. Uh, you know, uh, keyboard, power, glove eyes. Like glasses. Like what, what to you is the perfect input device? Uh, and how would it work in general terms?
Uh, who wants
[00:28:44] Christina: with Jeff. We’ll start with Jeff.
[00:28:46] Jeff: Okay. I love this question because the answer surprised me. I had not previously had this answer, uh, . I had not previously kind of like had this thought before. Um, so I, I’m a drummer. I, I [00:29:00] drummed almost every day from eighth grade until I was about 24. Um, touring bands like the whole thing. But I, I drummed a nonstop.
I loved it. Um, I loved how it felt. I loved how my brain worked. I loved that it was, I didn’t have anything in the like, knowledge world where, where that was nearly as effortless as drumming. Like I, I would love to be able to do certain things like computer programming, something as effortlessly as I did drumming.
Didn’t have to think.
[00:29:27] Brett: it’s like a leap motion.
[00:29:29] Jeff: So basically not, here’s, here’s the thing. I’m, I’m ta between two things. One is like, it all depends. So it would somehow, um, it would all be based on specific rhythms, like some quick thing like whether it’s like the rhythm of a fill or, you know, uh, two time signatures. You know, like my one hand’s doing one and other hand’s doing the other or something.
Cuz like I am terrible at remembering keyboard shortcuts. But if I could just be like, oh yeah, no, that’s the opening, uh, to, to immigrant song , [00:30:00] you know, just once, boom. That’s your, you know, that fa that opens my browser. Um, I would love that.
[00:30:08] Brett: I just wanna point out that, um, keyboard mice show accepts midi inputs.
[00:30:13] Jeff: Oh
[00:30:14] Brett: with like an old like rolling drum machine and a bunch of Paso
[00:30:19] Jeff: yes.
[00:30:20] Brett: have a drum input
[00:30:22] Jeff: or even I have this, I have that one of these little, um, keyboards in my closet here. Just like certain harmonies or something. Right. Like a cord.
[00:30:31] Brett: I actually, I, I played around with that a while, like having different
[00:30:34] Jeff: Of course you did
[00:30:35] Brett: Different chords. Well, because I mean, keyboard shortcuts, you’re learning chords like, like control shift, op delete, like that, like that’s a chord, that’s a two-handed chord. Uh, but yeah, like you are creating chords. So I figured I’ve got a 24 key mini keyboard in front of me.
What, you know, what could C minor do? What could, what [00:31:00] could an A seven, like, how could I, uh, like trigger just with like, just keyboard, literally like piano, keyboard chords.
[00:31:08] Christina: That’s, and that’s actually a brilliant way to maybe teach somebody music. Like somebody who like, has a, a different, like, like, like, like I, I know music primarily by ear and um, and I was able to kinda like fake it enough to, to, um, like read music, at least for, for voice stuff. Um, and, and play a little piano.
But my problem is, is that I primarily am, am a by ear person. But like that would be, I, I could learn music that way. Like, you know, kind of reverse engineering things. Like, okay, you know, this is, this is what you do to, to get like, you know, this chord will correspond with this shortcut. Like that, that would totally, that would totally be how I
[00:31:49] Brett: a very specific personality
[00:31:51] Christina: 100%. But I don’t think I’m, I mean, it would be specific. I’m, I’m, it’s niche. I’m not trying to claim this is the broad, broader poach, but, but I also don’t think that it’s quite as small as, as you would [00:32:00] think. Like I think there are a lot of people who are like, oh no, if I could see this in, you know, have this cuz you know, music is mathematical.
But like, if I could have it framed in this way versus this way, I, I think a lot of people would probably be able to understand like notation.
[00:32:16] Brett: If all those Photoshop users who had learned all the keyboard shortcuts, who, who could hit command shift option S uh, to save a JPEG without thinking twice about it, realized that those skills could translate to making music. Yeah, sure.
[00:32:32] Christina: Oh yeah. No, I, I I wonder if there’s like a high correlation between people who are really good at piano, um, or really good at starting guitar work and people who are really good at, you know, certain like ridiculous keyboard things. Like, just in terms of people who do both. Like, I wonder if there’s a, like if you have people who are, you know, do both of those things, the people who are really like, you know, people who both, um, dabble Photoshop or whatever, play music.
If the people who are really skilled at the
[00:32:57] Brett: That would be, I would be
[00:32:58] Christina: they’re good, that would be interesting to [00:33:00] look at. But that, that’s, that’s fascinating.
[00:33:02] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:33:03] Brett: I’ll get us a grant. We’ll study that
[00:33:06] Christina: I
[00:33:06] Jeff: we should get a grant. We should, we should get a bunch of
[00:33:08] Christina: Are we kidding me? Oh my God. We could have an o o Overtired Pod. Pod. The, the grant, the grant funded podcast, honestly,
[00:33:13] Jeff: We got our internet, internet history grant. We got our emerging, uh, technologies, grant. All right. Christina, what’s your, what’s your answer?
[00:33:22] Christina: Uh, I think that, and it’s so interesting what you say about the drumming because a, I wish I could drum, but I can’t do the, I can’t keep a different, um, a rhythm on one hand and the other. I’ve tried my whole life and I’ve, I can’t do that. Like, I can’t like have like a consistent like pattern,
[00:33:41] Jeff: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:42] Christina: 1, 1, 1 thing on one hand, one on the other.
Um, I think, I mean, mouse and keyboard is pretty great, but like touch input is also great. Like part of me thinks that what they should often minority report. Which was just a little bit [00:34:00] too ahead of its time in some ways, but dead on. And some others I think was really good because it got the touch aspect of what we were gonna see with multi-touch on the iPhone, but it was, um, rather than on a, on a, you know, physical device, it was kind of in the air
[00:34:13] Brett: in 3D space?
[00:34:15] Christina: in 3D space.
And I think that that whole concept makes tons of sense. Uh, I still do. And so I, I, I do feel like, I think kind of, as much as I love, like my mouse and keyboard, I really do think that kind of like the pinnacle of kind of a perfect input is, is touch.
[00:34:31] Brett: Here’s the thing, did you ever have a leap motion?
[00:34:36] Christina: Um, no, but I, I, I, I, I did, I did review. Yeah, I did, I did review it though. Yeah. I, I didn’t have like a, a full-time one, but
[00:34:45] Brett: I had one and I set up like I could read through all my r s s feeds, just using hand motions, uh, while I was walking on my walking desk treadmill. And I could just like,
[00:34:57] Christina: Yeah.
[00:34:58] Brett: wave to the next article. [00:35:00] Scroll up and down with two fingers. My arms got real tired
[00:35:04] Christina: That, that’s, that’s what they, uh, that’s what they said in Minority Report is that they had to do like that, that was the biggest problem in that film. It was, it was doubly a problem because they had to make the movements even bigger to be appear on film.
[00:35:17] Jeff: Oh.
[00:35:17] Christina: But like Steve Harris and, and Tom Cruise and other people, like their arms apparently like got real sore
[00:35:23] Brett: it’s exhausting. I mean, like the effort that you put into a keyboard that you most people don’t even have to look down at. Um, you know, and then your track pad or your track ball or your mouse, um, that you can, you know where it is on your desk. You don’t have to look down. There’s just these minor elbow and wrist movements to do it all.
Um, like that seems.
[00:35:45] Christina: I agree. Well, well, that, that’s why I, I’m not saying that. I was saying touch, like, like touch, like on a phone or an iPad.
[00:35:51] Brett: Yeah. Have you ever, you used like a surface, right?
[00:35:54] Christina: Yeah.
[00:35:55] Brett: Um, do you find scrolling the screen using touch [00:36:00] to be superior to scrolling with like a track pad?
[00:36:02] Christina: Yes.
[00:36:03] Brett: Okay.
[00:36:04] Christina: Significantly so.
[00:36:05] Brett: Yeah, and I haven’t, I haven’t, like I’ve used an iPad but not as like as a computing surface, really.
[00:36:11] Christina: Right. And
[00:36:12] Brett: as a me, a media consumption device.
[00:36:15] Christina: mean that’s primarily how I use it too. But I will say, and, and the iPad is also weird because they, they try to kind of be this weird mishmash between the two and it kind of doesn’t really succeed. Um, and, uh, where’s like, the surface, what’s interesting about it is I don’t use touch on a lot of other things, but, but scrolling, scrolling, it is significantly better.
Now, I will say it’s usually faster to use a track pad, but there are also times when it’s not where I’m just like, oh, I really quickly need to just get to the bottom of a page. and, you know, just being able to flick up on the screen is significantly better, or zooming in is another area where it’s just so much better, um, to be able to pinpoint that exact place that I need to zoom in on.
Um, I mean, you know, the magic track pad goes a long way with that, [00:37:00] but it’s, it’s still not as good. Um, so I mean, I feel like, uh, stylists sometimes I think is great because like, like a, like Apple pencil, um, oral Wacom, because you can again, get really granular with things and, and really kinda like annotate on stuff.
But I don’t know. I think I feel like touch, I think this is why the iPhone worked, because capacitive touch is the thing. Like we’d all used the, um, uh, resistive touch screens on like the, you know, Palm pilot and, um, you know, the, the, the, the trio and that
[00:37:33] Brett: had a, I had an 800 by 600, uh, capacitive touchscreen that I used for home automation, the thing, so the screen is 800 by 600, but it was like two feet deep and, and went out an additional three inches on each side with like perforated steel and that I mounted in the wall so I could have a touchscreen
[00:37:54] Jeff: When was this?
[00:37:55] Brett: This would’ve been like 90. [00:38:00] No, I guess it, it would’ve been like 99, but, uh, 99, 2000. But, um, like I was buying ancient tech at that point. This, this was from an airport terminal. Uh, the, the device I bought was like a scrap from an airport terminal where you had had like touch touchscreen
[00:38:21] Christina: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. To like check into the airport. Yeah. Gotcha.
[00:38:25] Brett: yeah,
[00:38:26] Christina: Well, and we all know, well, even to this day, we still know how bad some of those systems are. Right? Like, they’re not all like capacitive the same way. Right. Completely inaccurate. Like, like even like in, um, um, maybe check-in is better.
I, I don’t check in at the airport, but, um, like definitely the, the, um, screens, you know, for the, in, um, uh, you know, ine entertainment. Um, if, if you don’t have like the latest plane, like, like I’ve, I’ve more than once had an experience where it is just been off enough that I haven’t been able to like, actually watch anything in the seat.
And I’m like in first class and I’m like, [00:39:00] this is why we all have to bring our iPads because I, the, the capac, the, the transitive test doesn’t work, but a capacitive touch. Like I, that’s why iPhone is such a game changer, you know?
[00:39:11] Brett: So looking at my setup where I’m sitting right now, uh, I have 2 30, 2 30, 32 inch displays that I can’t reach. Like I hold my arm out straight from where I am. I can’t, I can’t touch these screens, don’t want to. Um, my track pad works great. I could see if I had like, leap motion and I could just pretend to touch the screen and get accurate results from it.
If I could just point at something and move it around the screen, I could see that being, uh, a useful interaction. Do you wanna hear my answer to this question?
[00:39:46] Christina: We have to,
[00:39:47] Brett: Neural link.
[00:39:49] Christina: yeah. Okay. I, I was, I was, I was actually kind of thinking this too. This was, this was gonna be like one of my like futuristic answers.
[00:39:55] Brett: no, no, no props to Elon, but if we are [00:40:00] imagining the perfect human interface device, I want to think shit and have it happen.
Um, I don’t know. I don’t know how it work. Work. That’s why I said in general terms in the question, because there are so many questions. Like, like they have, uh, for disabled users, they have eye tracking
[00:40:18] Christina: Yeah. Which is amazing. Which was so, which is incredible.
[00:40:21] Brett: huge. It’s huge, but not terribly convenient. Like you would do better using your hands if you had that option.
Um, for, for people who don’t have that option, amazing
[00:40:34] Christina: Well, and it certainly results in eye strain, in, in ways that like, because people who, um, don’t have those options, it’s amazing how quickly they can do stuff. Like, it’s unreal, but, but, you know, but it leads to the genuine eye strain and, and other stuff, whereas just being able to think it
[00:40:50] Brett: Just imagine how, what Stephen Hawking could have done if he could interface directly with his brain instead of the assistive [00:41:00] technologies he was forced to use later in life. Um, like I, I, I don’t know how it works. I, I don’t, but I just want to control things with my brain.
[00:41:11] Christina: I mean, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s gonna be Elon, but like it’s going to
[00:41:15] Brett: I bring up, I bring up Elon
[00:41:16] Christina: Oh, I know, I know because Nora link No, I know. I, oh, no, no, no. I know, I’m, I’m just saying like, I, you know, I, look, we all hate him, but he’s not like some of the stuff that he’s invested in and, and the ideas he have are not bad at all.
And, and they’re going to do it. I mean, from what I understand, and, and, uh, the two of you might have more information than me, but from what I understand is they basically, I think the idea would be you could kind of take like brain waves from MRIs, types of things, and they’re able to map that to, I guess, certain actions or, or certain functions and kind of, you know, uh, they find, they find patterns there.
And so they would be able to infer basically from those wave things and kind of program things and that regard saying, okay, if we, if we get this sort of signal, then this is what we’re going to be doing. [00:42:00] So it’s not, Again, I think this is where like the AI stuff becomes really interesting because that could potentially speed up the processing of all of those, like brain scans, right?
And, and looking at the patterns and maybe figuring stuff out like that would automate that a lot more than you could, you know, in a, in a, um, uh, like a manual kind of way. Um, I don’t know. I, I think we, we might have something like that in our lifetime. I wouldn’t be surprised. I, I It would be exciting.
[00:42:27] Brett: Yeah.
[00:42:28] Jeff: Just as you, right. When you’re like, can I tell you, mine and I, and you hadn’t said neural link yet. I had this thought at the exact same time as you said, neural link, where I’m like the clapper which is like, exactly why I am not you. Um, but I was like, but, but that, and that worked great. But what if you had like, like you’re, you’re the choir teacher and you have like, um, update website, right?
You just, that’s the pattern and then your bunch fires, you know, and you’re updating your [00:43:00] website.
[00:43:00] Christina: no, that would be genius. That would be, and honestly, that would be a lot more doable than, than the Neurolink thing,
[00:43:06] Jeff: Well that’s what I’m thinking. I think we can get funding for that
[00:43:08] Christina: I totally think we could get funny for like a, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s like a clapper meets like a voice assist thing. And, and that goes along with, with, with, with your, uh, perfect thing, Jeff, of being kind of like the rhythm based.
[00:43:19] Jeff: Yes. Right.
[00:43:20] Brett: yeah. I mean, so like four years before Siri existed, makos had, I can’t remember what they called it, but they had voice commands. You could record your voice saying a command, and then have your computer listen for it and execute. It was in the sis of technology. Um, I, I feel like you could record beats with that.
[00:43:42] Jeff: I think you could also do that with like an Arduino or something. I, I think I, I’ll have to look it up. I bet somebody’s done that.
[00:43:47] Brett: sure.
[00:43:48] Jeff: I like that even better though.
[00:43:51] Brett: I’m gonna, I’m gonna read our, our sponsor read for the week. Um, before we get, let Christina ask her, uh, first interview question. [00:44:00] Our sponsor, collide, k o l i d e, has some big news. If you’re an Okta user, they can get, they can get your entire fleet to 100%. How you ask if a device isn’t compliant, the user can’t log into your cloud apps until they fix the problem.
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[00:45:23] Christina: All right. So if you could do anything in the world as a job, like what would it be and why, and, and kind of an add-on follow-up to this that you can add on as you’re answering this. Like what has stopped you from trying to do this
[00:45:40] Brett: Oh, I have the answer for this
[00:45:41] Christina: Yeah. All right. You, you, you go first.
[00:45:44] Brett: Deep Sea marine biologist.
[00:45:47] Christina: Okay.
[00:45:48] Brett: like it is, out of all of the jobs I’ve learned about in my life, the one that has intrigued me the most and that I thought I could really just fucking [00:46:00] dive into, no pun intended, um, is Deep sea marine biologist, because the deep sea contains such weird things.
And it’s so overall unexplored that it would, it’d be like being an astronaut, but underwater. Uh, what’s kept me from doing this is I, I don’t think I could get through the schooling. Um, like I, I, I’m not good at chemistry and biology and at least in a school setting, like these things I understand in a general sense.
But, um, and I also, I’m claustrophobic and like submarines don’t really appeal to me. So all things being, uh, if, if, if I could take care of those issues, I think that would be just, uh, a very fulfilling career. Uh, but there are some major blocks for me.[00:47:00]
[00:47:00] Jeff: Oh my God. I, my, my stepmom’s father, uh, was not in a submarine, but he was in a battleship at World War ii and he was in the boy, he was in the boiler room upside of being in the boiler room. He would take coins and melt them on the boiler and turn them in, turn them into naked lady rings that he would sell.
Um, downside, he, he is told from the be beginning, anything goes wrong in this ship. Your little space gets steeled off and you die. Like you are not coming out of there. Everyone else may survive, but you are not coming
[00:47:34] Brett: I had an uncle who worked on a nuclear submarine for a good portion of his naval career. Um, and, and he was kind of in the same boat. Like, uh, you’re, you’re,
[00:47:46] Jeff: Same boat. Huh?
[00:47:48] Brett: I’m so full of puns, unintentionally unintentional puns, but like, yeah, um, you, you go about, you go about your business, you do your job, but if something goes wrong, probably outside of your [00:48:00] control, you are gonna die.
Like this is a seal, this is a coffin. Underwater
[00:48:05] Jeff: right.
[00:48:06] Brett: you’re going down.
[00:48:08] Jeff: Um, my answer to that is I think, I think I know my answer, uh, but I’m so worried I’m not, I’m not thinking of something, but I, um, I had, uh, a family, distant family member from Norway, a sculptor who was in town this week to unveil like this very large sculpture, uh, that’s now in Minneapolis.
And he was describing the work it took to make the sculpture and, and how, you know, it was a year and a half of just kind of a bunch of people hammering on this thing, this metal to bend this metal just so whatever else. And like, but it was like a year and a half of like this very specific act. And, uh, had another friend that came in town that has a, a, a survey at the Walker Art Museum.
This artist Paul Chan and Paul makes these things called breathers. And it’s like, if you imagine those like [00:49:00] gas station guys that with the wavy arms, you know, he, he figured out a way to make them in the different types of figures that are actually kind of oddly moving to look at. Um, but it, they’re literally inspired by those goofy things, but they end up being really serious.
Um, and, and just kind of, uh, just amazing. And, and he, to do that, he learned sewing, um, he learned fabrics and, and he spent, you know, day after day after day making a shape. How does it move? That’s not what I’m looking for. I’m gonna fix it here. And so I would love to be an artist that works with like physical mediums, because I think that one of the things for me that was not ingrained in me having not gone to college was that sometimes.
To get a thing done. It just takes this like day after day of like tiny steps that don’t look like anything. Right. And that was never ingrained in me. And so I’ve always, I’ve always hustled in a way to get things done. Even when I’m, even when I’m getting them done very [00:50:00] slowly, I feel like I’m hustling to get them done cause it’s supposed to look like something or something.
I think I just never got that, that piece. Plus, it’s probably also personality, whatever, but like, I am so blown away when I, when I realized that like a researcher just spent a year and a half reading one document after another after another, and they could not come to this like grand conclusion had they not spent that year reading these documents.
Like I just, I want to do something that takes advantage of that, that style of working.
[00:50:30] Brett: is part of the appeal though, that they are short term, that they are finite. Like you can dedicate all of that time and energy, but you know, it has, it’s not the rest of your life. It’s a year and a half and, and you can use your creativity and problem solving and, and really dig into working with your hands.
But with, but with a final goal
[00:50:53] Jeff: Totally. So in the case of the art, in the case of the art, that’s totally it, because like I can’t just do the same thing forever, right? I don’t want to [00:51:00] be the person you hire who’s always hired to hammer on things, right? Like, I don’t want to be that person, , you know? I wanna be, I want to have the vision, be working on it, get it done.
Next thing.
[00:51:11] Brett: that’s what’s appealing to me about being a craftsman as well. Like, I’ve often thought woodworking would be a fun pursuit and like someone hires you to build something and, and you have a couple weeks where you use your, know-how, you use your creativity and you’re building something and when it’s done, you get paid and you move on to something new.
And for my A D H D brain, that sounds very appealing. Um, like I went to art school, we, uh, we would get usually like in a 3D class, in a, in a metals class or in a 3D sculpture, We would usually create like two pieces for the semester and you would dedicate hundreds of hours to building one thing. [00:52:00] And you should have an idea what it was gonna be, when it was done, when you started.
But you don’t always, uh, but you really, you get to go to sleep at night thinking about how you’re going to contribute to this finite object the next day. And, and that, that worked for me. That worked well with my brain. Way better than going to a university ever did
[00:52:23] Jeff: like that. Yeah, Christina, I’m very excited to hear your answer.
[00:52:28] Christina: So it’s kind of pouring in, in comparison to these. So it’s, it’s like a cross between two. Like one would be like a talk show host slash like news anchor. Um, and uh, and the other would be like, Being like a, a, a television showrunner, like, like, you know, like, like being a, a writer, creator of my own, um, uh, TV show.
And, um, I guess what stopped me from, well, [00:53:00] the, the writer creator thing is honestly a lot of the atmosphere and, and not being in Los Angeles and, and being willing to kind of take the chances you’d need to do to do that sort of thing. Um, the anchor thing, like I, I’ve been on TV a lot and I’ve, I’ve definitely host a lot of things, um, for, for Microsoft and now for GitHub, and I hope that continues and, and I’m really good at it.
And I obviously do podcasts, um, but I, it was a weird thing where to do, to get the on air jobs, like if you really want them. I did have an interview with CNBC and I blew it and it sucked and that is what it is. Uh, but. typically, like you have to kind of start, you know, the very low paying jobs at the local news stations and then kind of work your way up.
And when I was starting out in journalism, I was getting paid double what you would get paid the local news stations to do that. And I just was unwilling to, to take the, like, the monetary cost, like the, like the cut that would be [00:54:00] necessary to kind of go through those steps. To be totally honest. Like that’s, and I, you know, I was hoping that, oh, you know, if I’m good enough, you know, on camera, that I’ll continue to get invited back and maybe that’ll lead to something and that can for some people, but you typically have to go viral and like a certain way.
And, and for things that I wouldn’t necessarily be comfortable going viral for, like, you’ve gotta be like a Tommy Laren or someone and then they don’t end up becoming good, um, hosts most of the time. Right. So, um, one, like, I think that those would be the two things that I would, I would love to do, like.
All things, like, if I could just like snap my fingers and be like, oh, you know, what would I do every day? One would be like running like my own TV show because I have a lot of ideas for things. Uh, and then the other would be just like, yeah, I would love like having like a daily like newscast talk show, whatever.
[00:54:51] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:54:52] Christina: Rippa. That would be fun.
[00:54:54] Jeff: Yeah.
[00:54:54] Brett: You would be, you would be an amazing host. I just gotta
[00:54:57] Jeff: Totally,
[00:54:58] Brett: like your, your [00:55:00] depth of knowledge of any fucking topic, like you could, you could get answers out of people. You’d, you would be the John Stewart of any tech talk show.
[00:55:12] Jeff: Yeah, that’d be awesome. That’d
[00:55:13] Christina: Yeah. My, my goal and, and, and this is why it sucked so much that I blew and it was my own fault that I blew the scene VC interview, was that like I’d always wanted to be the Erin Burnett of tech because what she did, Uh, finance stuff when, when she was in finance. And then she parlayed that into getting her more general news thing on, um, cnn.
But what she did for, uh, financial news and reporting on, uh, cn bbc, I was looked at that. I was like, I could do that for tech
[00:55:39] Jeff: Mm.
[00:55:39] Christina: one to this day, and this is what’s frustrating, like, uh, we’re now like, it’s been more than a decade since I kind of had like that, you know, kind of like brainwave or, or thought or whatnot.
It’s been, well, more than a decade, like nobody’s done that, like, for whatever reason, as as big of a topic as a tech is, there aren’t, like tech TV went off the air a billion years ago, but there aren’t like tech focused, [00:56:00] like you have segments on, on these news shows, but you don’t have anybody who, like, that’s just the whole thing they talk about.
And uh, and I think it’s because it, it’s a hard mix to find somebody who. Talk to a general public and bring on experts and ask questions and have the skills that are needed to actually understand what they’re talking about. I think it’s just a hard mix. Is is all I can guess that, that, or there’s just not an audience interest.
That could, that could be the other thing.
[00:56:27] Brett: so would you wanna be talk show slash showrunner now, or in this hypothetical scenario? Would you want to do it 10 years ago?
[00:56:41] Christina: I would totally do it now, but it would obviously would be, would’ve been better to do it 10 years ago.
[00:56:47] Brett: Okay. Easier perhaps?
[00:56:49] Christina: I don’t know, the easier, but yeah, it would be easier to, to break into it for sure, 10 years ago. But, uh, but I would totally still do it now. Like, and if somebody wanted to call me up and be like, Hey, [00:57:00] do this for, for, for you know us every day and we’ll pay you really well for it and you can make living off of it.
I’d be like, absolutely hell.
[00:57:07] Jeff: Yeah,
[00:57:09] Brett: I wanna
[00:57:10] Christina: show, the show running thing, I was still like, in any age, that would be still
[00:57:14] Brett: Oh, well, like right now, to me, right now, the, the television landscape, um, this is the ideal time to be a showrunner. Better than any time in history. Uh, TV is breaking ground. That fascinates me. Like I, this is the first time in, in my lifetime that I’ve paid close attention to who the showrunner for a show is.
Because I watched the show and I’m like, who, who, who put this together? Who is in charge of this? Uh, showrunner has actually become like a real, um, part of television for.
[00:57:54] Christina: it has. Yeah. No, it, it, it’s so interesting kind of the rise of, of that. And uh, my friend Catherine, um, she was one of my best [00:58:00] friends. She wrote an amazing. For, um, vice last year that went viral. And it was funny because it had originally, I dunno if I can share this. No, I’ll share it. It had originally been pitched to another outlet who winded up spiking it and like paying the kfi.
And then, um, it went to Vice and it did gangbusters and has had like some actual impactful changes on the industry where she wrote about how like television is having a show running crisis. And, um, because,
[00:58:30] Jeff: I remember this.
[00:58:31] Christina: uh, yeah, because she’d interviewed, um, like just so many people it, she was in the process of writing that.
I think she started like basically right as, as C O V was kind of, uh, kicking off. And so it was, it. Probably 18 on this of, of work that kind of went into this cuz um, she works at the e f now, but it’s, it’s just this incredible article, and you’re right Brett, that like, we care more about the show owner than ever, but it’s all, it’s equally true that a lot of people are getting thrown into that role who have [00:59:00] no experience and aren’t being mentored well and are, you know, it, it’s all these things.
And so I think that to that point, like it becomes even more important than ever to have like a good showrunner because there’s like a massive difference and you see it in the quality of the shows, right? Like it’s, it’s, it’s really interesting. But yeah, Catherine’s uh, Catherine’s article on that was just, uh, such an awesome thing.
Um, and, and when I read it, it was funny because I was like, oh, so, so Showrunning is just like PMing, like that’s, that’s like,
[00:59:31] Jeff: Yeah. Right, right.
[00:59:31] Christina: exactly what it is. And, and, and, and I was, I was drawing all these parallels between like software development and Showrunning and I was like, that would be an interesting article that five people would really like. But I might write it. I, I might write it someday anyway.
[00:59:46] Brett: So I want, I kinda wanna hear the, the follow up answer from Jeff. What, why, what stops you from this career, this artist, artist career?
[00:59:57] Christina: Yeah.
[00:59:58] Jeff: it’s only a, it’s only a [01:00:00] recent, like in the last five years, uh, it’s only a recent kind of epiphany that, um, you can do that kind of thing. And of course you can’t just do that kind of thing, right. Um, so like it takes a lot to make money doing that kind of thing. But, um, I don’t know. I would say fear probably, cuz I’ve had ideas over the years and of things I’d like to do and I, like I weld and I, I am handy with all sorts of tools and everything, so it’s like I have the.
I have the skills to kind of fabricate something if, if, um, if I had an idea that I loved and, and felt like sort of bold enough to, to seek some money for. Um, but I think it’s just, yeah, I think it’s just fear probably, but also just recency. Like I just, I honestly, it was two nights ago that I went to this family member of this Norwegian sculptors thing, and he talked to me about the whole process and I was just like, God damn, I would like to do something like this
That [01:01:00] was my job, but like as a, as a side hustle.
[01:01:02] Brett: you know, what I could see you doing is, um, art in public spaces that benefited people. Um, art, art, art installations for the unhoused. Um, you, you did like the the water stations.
[01:01:18] Jeff: hand washing stations. Yeah.
[01:01:19] Brett: Like you could make that into public art that I could totally see you doing that. I could totally see you being a, an activist artist working in 3d, working with all the skills you have.
All right, Jeff. I
[01:01:34] Jeff: Well, it’s funny, the, the funny thing about that is when, go ahead, Christina.
[01:01:38] Christina: I was just gonna say, I could see you doing that in addition to like doing like the public art thing. I could even see you like making it a nonprofit thing, like having a public art space. Right. Where in addition to
[01:01:48] Brett: A Maker Space
[01:01:50] Christina: Yeah, yeah. In addition to being kind of a gallery for your work that you’re doing, it could also be a space for, um, you know, like, um, underrepresented groups, um, to, to [01:02:00] come and, and either appreciate the art or create their own, sorry, go on.
[01:02:04] Jeff: I think it would be fun. I was thinking about that yesterday when I was touring this university with my son and all of the resources they had, and you could like, You know, you could like check out a 3D printer and bring it to your room or whatever. It was kinda cool. Um, no, I was gonna say with the, so what Brett’s referring to is during the early days of the pandemic, um, uh, there were a lot of, um, unhoused people in, like kind of little mini tent cities in Minneapolis.
They were popping up everywhere and, um, there was nowhere to wash your hands. And this was when we were all freaking out about washing our hands. And so I looked at a bunch of designs online for like, um, like foot pump, hand washing stations where you can get some kind of water flow and some drainage. Um, and I ended up , the funny thing about this is why I’m bringing it up is I could have just, it’s two five gallon buckets basically.
Right? Um, and I could have made it just that, but I, I really wanted it to be beautiful. And so it had, um, like, it had like [01:03:00] a, um, stainless steel bowl, uh, and an actual drain, like sink drain so that it just didn’t seem like something throwing off on people. Ah, they’re homeless. Here you go. You’ll figure it out.
Um, yeah, here’s a bucket. And then I remember I even, like I, it had said hand washing station on it. I, I bought two like fleet farm white buckets that were extra large and then I spray painted the, the logo over. So it was an all white bucket. And then I got . I used the JetBrains
[01:03:26] Brett: Yep.
[01:03:27] Jeff: mono space spot, which I loved, and it’s, and it’s in this blue, and I use it with my cricket, which is what usually use middle-aged ladies making wedding invitations.
And it, and I kind of, it said hand washing. It said hand washing. I love the cricket. And so I just found a picture of it the other day and I’m like, God, it’s beautiful and I wanted it to be beautiful. And so I’m, anyhow, it’s funny you’re saying that thing about that mix of like some kind of social purpose and, um, and art, but I ended up kind of forcing that onto this hand washing station,
[01:03:57] Brett: We’re gonna, we’re going to get you some grants.
[01:03:59] Jeff: That’s right.[01:04:00]
[01:04:00] Brett: It’s gonna be
[01:04:01] Jeff: all your
[01:04:01] Brett: your side project is gonna be grant writing and, and public art.
[01:04:06] Jeff: That’s right. Awesome. Well,
[01:04:08] Brett: we got through one round of questions in this first, in this first episode. Um, I think, uh, I think we, we call it here
[01:04:17] Christina: Yep.
[01:04:19] Brett: and then continue. We, we all wrote down three or four questions, but I think we’re gonna make this a two episode series, so we’ll see what we get through next time. In the meantime, this has been a lot of fun. Thanks, you guys.
[01:04:33] Jeff: Yeah, super
[01:04:33] Christina: you. I love this.
[01:04:35] Brett: Get some sleep.
[01:04:36] Jeff: get some sleep, but not too much cause we gotta start recording again.
[01:04:39] Christina: Exactly. Get some sleep. But you know, just enough I.
[01:05:00]
The gang is back together and there is catching up to do! Also, where have all the good rom-coms gone? Jeff pretty much sits that last bit out, but offers that he cried at The Notebook, FWIW.
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Cocaine Bear
Your Place or Mine or why the hell did Reese take this part?
The death of social media
Book Your Own Fucking Life
You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network
BackBeat Media Podcast Network
Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptI Brake for Descenders
[00:00:00] Intro: Tired. So tired, Overtired.
[00:00:04] Christina: you are listening to Overtired where, uh, we’re a little bit less tired than usual, or at least I am. I’m Christina Warren, joined as always by my good friends. All three of us are back together again. Jeff Severns Guntzel and Brett Terpstra. Woo-hoo. Gangs back together.
[00:00:22] Jeffrey: I just honked.
[00:00:24] Christina: I love it.
[00:00:28] Brett: Yeah. Did Jeff, did you get a chance to listen to the marching episode?
[00:00:32] Jeffrey: Not yet. No.
[00:00:34] Brett: It was good. It was.
[00:00:35] Christina: good. Um, and, uh, his book has now, since we recorded it, is become the second most popular. A nonfiction book, uh, ever on Kickstarter, but he has set another stretch goal. Uh, so I think you have until like March 9th to back the book if you’re interested. And the, the third stretch goal is he’ll make the, the custom font option even better.
[00:00:56] And the the third kind of book thing that he’s, uh, putting together will be in color rather than black and white. So if people are, are, uh, if they liked what Wood Martian had to say on our last episode, and if you’re interested in the history of keyboards, you’ve still got like another two weeks or so, I think to back that book.
[00:01:13] Brett: We didn’t get into it on the show, but he, this is a designer who, um, the underlines that you see on medium, um, I don’t know if you’ve ever noticed, they’re like perfectly, uh, aligned underneath and they break for descenders on, on lowercase fonts. Um, like he developed an entire system to use background images to create underlines because like the c s s underlying property sucks for it.
[00:01:42] And, uh, using border bottom is inaccurate. So he like created, he, he’s so detailed. He’s, he’s, uh, a perfectionist and he wasn’t gonna be happy until the underlines were exactly the way you would find them in like, print.
[00:01:58] Jeffrey: We need a, we need
[00:01:59] Christina: I I did not know he did that. That’s amazing.
[00:02:01] Jeffrey: we need a bumper sticker that says I break for Descenders. Also, while I have not listened to that episode yet, I actually, funnily enough, that’s the word now as of today. Um, I spent so much time on the website, uh, not just the, it’s not just this website about the book, but like blog posts and what I was just like, I just kept getting drawn in.
[00:02:26] Like I was, I was so, I was already pissed. I wasn’t on that episode then. I was just, I was like, man, this is so good.
[00:02:33] Brett: I’m very much looking forward to getting my hands on that book. It’s gonna be quite a ride.
[00:02:38] Christina: Me too. I’m, I’m, I, I’ve never been happier that, like a random Twitter conversation, like led me to talking to him for like, we, like we talked for like two and a half hours, one Sunday, like a year ago. Because I happen to tweet about, um, sneakers being like the best hacker movie ever, which is not even the first one I’ve ever tweeted about that.
[00:02:57] Like, that’s a common, um, like,
[00:02:59] Jeffrey: you, you, you’ve, you’ve fished with that bait before?
[00:03:02] Christina: oh, I have, well cuz it’s just, it’ll occur to me and I’m just like, man, this is a good ass movie. And uh, and then somebody was talking about the soundtrack and then he and I started DMing and, and he had a copy of it because it’s not available on streaming or anything.
[00:03:15] And then it turns out he has this ridiculous collection of like every version of sneakers that’s ever been released.
[00:03:20] Brett: every media you can
[00:03:22] Christina: medium. And, and, and we, we just, we, we, we just like talked about all kinds of stuff for several hours and then when I saw the, the shift happens thing, I was like, oh, this looks awesome.
[00:03:30] And then I looked to what’s behind it. I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is, this is, this is Martian. Like this is, this is so cool.
[00:03:39] Jeffrey: What a talent. Yeah, what an interesting brain
Mental Health Corner
[00:03:44] Brett: Well, uh, I have a movie that’s not so great to talk about, but, uh, let’s, uh, yeah, let’s do a little mental health corner. Um, I, I usually wait until last, I’ll just go first this week because I have so little to report. Um, I’m still, uh, I had a little bout of, uh, kind of hypo depression. Um, just like not motivated, but not like seeing everything as like dark and imposing.
[00:04:15] Um, but overall I’ve, I’ve just been stable and. Um, you know, like as, as usual when I’m stable, still kind of craving the hypomania, but getting along. I did yoga in, in, in studio today for the first time in a couple years. Um, and it was, it was a weird experience. Um, I forgot I was gonna go into the studio and got up late and like, basically I got up, drank coffee and went straight to the studio, which always puts me in a bad mood.
[00:04:49] Um, cuz I take like an hour to wake up in the morning. Um, I like sit and play like wordle until I can like, have a co a real conversation with somebody. Um, so I showed up kind of in a bad mood and, um, recovered from it quickly. Everyone was very, uh, happy to see me after a couple years. Like it was the same people that I used to practice with, but I’ve just been doing Zoom for so long.
[00:05:14] It was, it was a weird experience. But I had to focus, partly I had to focus on not farting. like
[00:05:22] Jeffrey: a major part of
[00:05:23] Brett: when you practice at home over Zoom, you can burp and fart without any concern. Um, but today, like I felt a fart coming on in the first 10 minutes of class and I held it all the way
[00:05:36] Jeffrey: Oh, that’s not yoga. Ooh.
[00:05:40] Brett: our class doesn’t fart a lot. Um, it’s,
[00:05:43] Jeffrey: Another, another bumper sticker.
[00:05:45] Brett: I had a, I had a speech prepared for if I farted, I’m just gonna be like, um, sorry I’ve been on Zoom too long. Um, but uh, but I pulled it off. I didn’t, I didn’t fart until I was getting in my car. Uh, so it was a success. It was a success. I had a good time.
[00:06:02] Jeffrey: I never, I always think of farting when I think of yoga. I also think of a yoga instructor I had for one class because his shorts were so tight that a testicle kept popping out and it’s not, I wasn’t like offended to see his testicle, but it was just distracting.
[00:06:16] Christina: like not what you’re expecting.
[00:06:17] Jeffrey: focus.
[00:06:18] Brett: I, I wore, I wore sweatpants to class and I forgot until I got there that I had on Spider-Man underwear.
[00:06:26] Christina: Nice.
[00:06:27] Brett: And
[00:06:28] Jeffrey: under.
[00:06:28] Brett: made me like from uh, meundies.com,
[00:06:32] Christina: Oh, okay.
[00:06:33] Jeffrey: Not under.
[00:06:34] Brett: underwear. And like, I suddenly got very self-conscious about it. I’m like, I gotta keep my pants pulled up and my shirt pulled down cuz I don’t need these people.
[00:06:42] Like, what, what do you think of some of an a grown man in Spider-Man underwear? Like, I don’t wanna
[00:06:49] Christina: I mean that,
[00:06:49] Brett: make that impression.
[00:06:51] Christina: See, and this is what’s like, so funny, like, about us, like just our, our, our small like, generational thing is that like, I’m like, yeah, of course people, adults have Spider-Man underwear. Like Marvel’s the biggest, you know, franchise in the world and everybody loves nostalgia. And actually, frankly, starting with Generation X is when they started the whole like reselling your nostalgia back to you thing.
[00:07:14] And so, so, you know, like at, at this point, I think that I, I don’t know if anybody would, would even be phased by that.
[00:07:22] Brett: to be fair, my class is mostly 50 and up people. Uh, this is not a class of Youngs, of, of Gen Z and millennials. This is, uh, boomers.
[00:07:34] Jeffrey: Boomers, what the fuck? I’m 48. I’m Gen X,
[00:07:38] Christina: Yeah, I was gonna say at this
[00:07:39] point, like,
[00:07:40] Brett: me there, there’s a woman in my regular yoga class who is, uh, almost 80
[00:07:46] Christina: okay. But like
[00:07:47] Brett: and surprisingly
[00:07:49] Jeffrey: so, so when you say 50 and above, you’re talking about an
[00:07:51] 80 year old
[00:07:51] Christina: Okay, so you’re talking like, like sep, so you’re talking like SEP areas and shit, which
[00:07:56] Brett: Yeah. She, she is a force to contend with. She’s amazing, and she’s so funny. She’s so mean. But like she’s old enough that it comes across as cute.
[00:08:08] Christina: right, right. Well, so at that point, okay, nobody else is probably gonna say anything to you cuz it’s a yoga class in Minnesota and, and if the old lady does then it’s just funny. So in the future, like, don’t be embarrassed by your cool underwear.
[00:08:22] Jeffrey: Yeah. Yeah, I’d be
[00:08:24] Brett: lot of things that I just, I shouldn’t be self-conscious about, but I am, um, I, I am very, I defeat myself in a lot of ways because I project my own insecurities onto everyone else. And, uh, it’s not, it’s not healthy, it’s not great, but I do it. That’s, that brings it back around to
[00:08:42] Christina: I was gonna say, I was gonna say that’s actually, that’s a good mental health like that, that that’s a good analysis thing. You should talk about that therapy. That’s a, that’s a good, like,
[00:08:49] Brett: I skipped therapy this week. I just, I got two, I had two nights of insomnia. Um, and I just did not feel like having a conversation with my therapist. Rather forceful when it comes to conversational style. Like he’s very, um, alpha male. Uh, I don’t find him relaxing at all, and I was too tired to deal with it.
[00:09:12] So I skip therapy next week. I’ll talk about it next week.
[00:09:16] Jeffrey: I, I think this was probably my update the last time I was on the show, which is, feels like forever ago. But, um, I continue to be in a situation where the, like medical forces that are supposed to be sort of watching out for me are just absent. So I had a, I had a, a blood lab and, um, I take lithium and it, and it, I’m working my way off of it, but I take it right.
[00:09:44] Um, and it showed that I was on the very edge of lithium toxicity when I logged in. Now I did not get any, um, things from my doctor, from my medication manager, nobody, and it’s bad to have lithium toxicity,
[00:09:59] Brett: Sure. That sounds bad.
[00:10:01] Jeffrey: so I had to call first my medication manager. They seemed scared, but seemed that they did not want to speak too much about it and just came up with a prescription solution by lowering the amount.
[00:10:14] When I talked to a dear friend of mine who used to be a nurse in the ER and who also is a medication manager, he was like, this is something that should have triggered one, you being told to go to the er and two, you being told to drink lots of water in order to kind of try to flush this stuff out, right? Didn’t hear from my doctor who has to presumably sign off on these things. So I’m the one raising the alarm to people only to find out a week later. That they had messed up the labs and in fact, I was at a, just about sub-therapeutic amount of And, and so one, the labs are wrong in the first place. Right? Two, when they were right, nobody was reaching out to me, , right? And, and it was like this point, I was talking to my partner about this. I was just like, I feel like I’m the responsible, reliable party in this situation, and given that this is mental health related, that shouldn’t be the case.
[00:11:14] I should not be that person.
[00:11:15] Christina: no, no. That pisses me off for you because. Here’s the thing, like in this country, like in the United States, we do not have free healthcare. We do not have, you know, like, like a system that you can blame on these inefficiencies like the, the NHS or, or, or whatever the system is in Canada or, or, you know, the, the better, uh, run systems and, and every other country, like, we have to pay out the ass even if our employers cover it.
[00:11:40] Like, it, it, it is expensive and mental health coverage is ex like, healthcare is especially expensive. Like my shrink isn’t even covered by, by insurance. I can submit, um, and have it paid through like my, my HSA funds. But like, he doesn’t even take insurance. Um, sometimes, um, you know, you can get it processed, but like he doesn’t even accept it.
[00:12:00] He’s just like, no, um, I’m not dealing with that. Um, and that’s always been the case with him. So you’re paying a lot of money for these things. Now they have these computerized systems, which are frankly, in some cases worse because everybody can log in and see stuff. And, and if you don’t read things correctly, you can maybe misinterpret stuff.
[00:12:18] Or in this case, you get the wrong freaking labs and you’re seeing something that should absolutely be flagged. Um, and, and, and they’re just being nonchalant about it. Like, come on, man.
[00:12:30] Jeffrey: and I was not, not only was the, did I not kind of have anybody raising the red flag when it came on so high, I didn’t have anybody loading it.
[00:12:38] Christina: Right, right. When, when they realized
[00:12:39] Jeffrey: just found it by accident. I’m like, oh, I’m not on the urge, verge of being in a coma. That’s great.
[00:12:45] Christina: Like that, that that’s, and, and, and I’m certainly not, not, um, like recommending this because again, and this is another problem with like mental health coverage and, and whatnot in this country, is, is I would never say to leave like a, a doctor that you have a good relationship with, um, for mental health.
[00:12:58] If, if, if you can, but like in normal circumstances for almost any other service, this would be the sort of fuck up that would be like worthy of going to a new provider over.
[00:13:10] Jeffrey: Yeah. And I do, I actually have an intake meeting with a new provider in May. Like that’s the soonest I could get it, you know, so that’s the other piece of it, right? It’s just like, you know, this is actually somewhat urgent, but,
[00:13:21] Christina: Right. Because we’re, you can’t do anything until May, so you’re stuck with it. But it’s, but, but it, but it is, but like, I, I can’t imagine any other field where if you’re given the wrong information that could have like life or death consequences and then the, uh, you know, the information is corrected that you’re not contacted either time.
[00:13:39] Like if, if like, if somebody like, you know, knew something about your car, like if you got like a, a wrong recall notice for your car and then they didn’t tell you that your car was okay, like people would be livid. Can you even imagine
[00:13:50] Jeffrey: You are making me wonder if I’ve been missing recall notifications for my body, for my body and mind all along. Someone’s been trying to get me
[00:13:59] Christina: anyway, I’m not trying to roll you up. I’m just trying to say like, I, I’m, I’m sorry that happened and uh, yeah.
[00:14:03] Jeffrey: you. Part of what that ends up doing that’s separate from the medication is that it puts you in, uh, a situation where, you know, you really have to be someone who is, is actually engaged enough with your like inner life to advocate for yourself, right? Because it’d be so easy to be like, well, fuck it.
[00:14:22] I know I don’t deserve. You know what I mean? Like, and so I just always think of, I mean, I think of myself cuz this is a issue, but I also think of just so many other people that don’t, don’t have that ability to advocate for themselves. Uh, it’s just kind of nerve-wracking, um, just to think about. But anyway, so there was that, and that’s actually been going on in every, in every way.
[00:14:42] So I got a crown, temporary crown and they, they put it in a little wrong. So my gums got infected like a few months ago. I got a bunch of, I call it corpse dust. They, I got, I’m getting like an implant in my tooth and
[00:14:53] they put this like bone dust for bone grafts in there. They did it wrong and it, my body just like rejected all of it.
[00:14:59] It was just coming out constantly for like a week and they had to redo that. Like, it’s just, everything’s, everything’s been like that for me. It’s just crazy. Um, anyway, that’s my update. . Stay alert everybody. Stay.
[00:15:13] Christina: Yeah, no, which is a, a good reminder. And I know like from my mom’s experiences, like how important it’s to advocate for yourself and I know all these things, and I’m so laissez-faire about certain things with the medical care, and it’s not because I, I can’t advocate for myself. It’s just a lot of times I just don’t wanna go through the effort of even dealing with things.
[00:15:29] Like both of my knees are hurting me right now. Um, one of them, because I was hit by a car five years ago. And, um, uh, and, and that was not great. And, and that issue has been presenting itself more. And the other one, I don’t know, it just like started like yesterday, but I just kind of noticed, I was like, my knees hurt and maybe it’s an aging thing.
[00:15:51] Although, you know, I’m, I’m. Immune from aging, so, so I don’t know. Um, it could be like weather related. Um, I’ve had like arthritis like symptoms since I was a kid, so I, I, if there was stuff, you know, it will, like, I will not at all be surprised if I have to have like any knee trans, like knee transplants or something, even though, um, I’m in, you know, uh, I’m not overweight and, and I don’t have the other sorts of symptoms that you would typically associate with that sort of thing.
[00:16:20] Um, but I, I got like a virus when I was really little and, and basically started having symptoms of arthritis when I was like eight. So it’s just, it’s kind of been one of those inevitable things. But again, these are things I just like put off and, and don’t deal with, um, until maybe forced. So that’s a good reminder for me to be like, don’t let this go too long.
[00:16:42] Um, my mental health’s okay. Um, as, as I’d mentioned, you know, before, like we had layoffs a couple of weeks ago and, and they’re not being done in, um, well, there’s no good way to do them, but they’re kind of being dragged out and so there’s this feeling of uncertainty. Um, I still. I think my team is, is safe, and I don’t have any like, concerns about like, my job security and, and, and I feel confident that even if I were to be laid off that like I could find another job relatively quickly like that.
[00:17:13] I, I don’t have like massive anxiety about which is, which is good. I was talking to my shrink about that this week that I, I’m finally at this point in my, my tech career where I was in my journalism career, which is that I feel like, okay, if I got laid off tomorrow, not to say that it wouldn’t suck and that, that I wouldn’t, you know, have to rely on my savings and whatnot, but I feel confident, um, in my abilities to, to get hired, um, even in, in this kind of uncertain economy, um, without a problem.
[00:17:44] Uh, you know, uh, comp and other things might be different, but like I, I, I feel confident at this point in my, my skillset, um, that I, that I’d be able to find another job, which is good. , but you know, every single day, you know, seeing everything that’s happening, you know, in kind of the, the sector and all this stuff.
[00:18:01] It is, it is deeply unsettling. And, um, and I know I’ve talked about that before and I don’t wanna keep bringing it back to that, but it does like, bring up like those, you know, those fast feelings of, um, uncertainty and anxiety. But other than that, I’m, I’m, I’m doing, I’m doing fine, you know, um, I’m going to see cocaine beer tonight, which I’m really excited
Overtired Goes to the Movies!
[00:18:24] Brett: Oh man. Uh, so I wasn’t, I wasn’t psyched about it until David Wayne did like a, i, i, maybe a tic-tac, but I saw it on Instagram, um, about like how great it was, and now I’m totally into seeing it.
[00:18:40] Christina: Yeah, the trailer I was kind of, I was kind of in, and then when I started reading, like when they did the junket, I was like, okay, now I’m fully in. Because like apparently how Elizabeth Banks got involved, how everybody got involved was that I guess the, uh, the peoples that the, uh, Phil, um, um, and, and the other guy, the Lego movie guys are the producers.
[00:19:02] They read the script and then they gave it to Elizabeth Bank. They’re like, what do you think about this? Do you wanna direct this? And she was like, are you serious? This is insane. Yes, I want to direct it. And then that was sort of the response of everybody else who’s involved and is for the most part, like really good actors.
[00:19:17] Like she was on the phone with Carrie Russell about a completely different project, and then called her the next day and was like, , do you wanna read this, this, this Cocaine bear thing. And then, um, um, Margo Martindale texted Carrie Russell, she was like, wait, are you doing this? And Carrie was like, wait, are you doing this?
[00:19:33] And then they were like, okay, well we’ll both do this. And, and, and Carrie Russell’s, uh, husband even like, makes a cameo in it because he read the script and he was like, who’s playing this guy? I wanna play this guy . And Elizabeth Banks was like, see you in, see you in Ireland. And so again, it could be terrible, but unlike Snakes on a plane,
[00:19:51] Jeffrey: I was just gonna say, snakes on of plane.
[00:19:55] Christina: right, but, but what? And Snakes on a plane was like, let’s be honest. Like, that was a trailer that, that then kind of like everybody got excited about and made memes about it, and they, they went back and re-shot and like made more with it. And, and that’s fine. And I’m not saying that that Samuel L. Jackson, Juliana Margoles aren’t good actors, but like these are good actors who are involved in this.
[00:20:15] and, and so it has to, to me the script has to be just like bat shit enough for them to be like, fuck Yeah,
[00:20:22] Brett: Ridiculous to the point of being awesome.
[00:20:24] Christina: Right. And then just to see someone like David Wayne, who of course would be like, if I’m gonna take like camp, like recommendations from anyone is going to be David
[00:20:32] Brett: From the guy who made a wet hot American summer.
[00:20:35] Christina: That’s exactly, that’s what I’m saying.
[00:20:36] Like, so, because cuz you won a good campy film. The marketing has also been brilliant. Like, they had like a, um, a, a tweet that I loved where they, they used the DARE logo and they used the DARE logo in the freaking marketing, which is great. And they were like, I dare you to see this or whatever. And then the tweet was like, yes, we’re bullying you.
[00:20:54] And, and I was just like, okay, this is great. And their website, uh, cocaine bear.movie or whatever, there’s a, there’s a web game, which I guess is an HTML five cuz you know, can’t be. It’s, it’s what would’ve been a flash game 10 years
[00:21:06] Jeffrey: Right. I saw
[00:21:07] Christina: And it’s amazing. You basically, it’s like the adult, it’s like a really adult
Marker
[00:21:12] Christina: graphic, violent version of, um, The, um, buffalo hunting game in, um, Oregon Trail where you have to kill as many humans as you can, but you have to have enough cocaine power and so you have to collect the cocaine, and then you run around and then they make all these noise and it’s fantastic.
[00:21:34] Like we’re gonna have the link of the show notes. So, um, this is a, a weird way to end Mental health corner except Oh, uh, uh, like I’m just, uh, uh, you know, in, in my, my part of it or whatever, except to say like, I’m very, very excited about cocaine bear.
[00:21:50] Jeffrey: Awesome.
[00:21:51] Brett: I, uh, I had this intention of opening the mental health corner with, um, the Frazier Crane. Um, you’re, you’re listening to Frazier Crane on K a C L. I’m listening. Um, and then end it with Goodnights, Seattle and good mental health. But I, I forgot. Um, but we we’re, we’re on a movie kick, so
[00:22:14] Christina: Great. Great
[00:22:14] Brett: sneakers, we got sneakers, we got cocaine.
[00:22:16] Bear. Um, I sat down, oh, what’s up?
[00:22:20] Jeffrey: Can I just insert something that you made me think of? Because one of the things about this podcast that I enjoy most is it sometimes fulfills my dream of being on a morning show. Um, and so we’ve had, so we’ve had this morning show at our classic rock station, K Q R S since I was a kid. It’s this guy, Tom Bernard.
[00:22:38] He’s racist, misogynist, and just generally annoying except that he has the best radio voice ever.
[00:22:45] Christina: Isn’t that always the case?
[00:22:46] Jeffrey: And I can turn on the morning show, which I never do intentionally, and if it’s on for three seconds, he says something that makes me, uh, angry. Yeah. And I get angry enough when they play the Eagles, you know?
[00:22:59] It’s like, I gotta, you gotta, like, anyway, so he got canned by their corporate overlords for not really that clear of a reason. And in his place they hired a man named Steve Gorman, who was the drummer of the Black Crows in the, in, in their first few albums. Right.
[00:23:15] Brett: an underappreciated band.
[00:23:16] Jeffrey: oh, amazing band, especially those first two albums.
[00:23:19] And he actually has a syndicated classic rock show that already ran on this radio station. But he moved here to be the morning show host, and it has been amazing. And he told the following story because it was an anniversary of the release of the first Black Crows album. Now he’s like suing them. Like that went bad, but he said that.
[00:23:38] So first of all,
[00:23:39] Christina: I was gonna say cuz he clearly didn’t get the, the riches of the black throw stuff like no offense to him, but if he’s living in Minnesota
[00:23:45] Jeffrey: Just moved here. No, he just moved here. He was living in la
[00:23:48] Christina: Okay. Okay. Well, but if, regardless if he moved even worse, if he moved to Minnesota to host a morning show for a local station after having
[00:23:57] Brett: going well.
[00:23:58] Christina: And I know how much those, those syndicated Sirius xm, uh, shows, um, pay if you’re not like a
[00:24:04] Jeffrey: yeah,
[00:24:05] Christina: So he’s not Yeah. So, so clearly, so, so it clearly didn’t end well. But anyway, sorry. Go
[00:24:09] Jeffrey: he, I love these types of stories. So he told this story about, so first of all, when he recorded that Black Crows album, that first album, it came out in like 91. Uh, and, and for me, this was like a big album for me, which is why I’m even bringing it. Um, he had o only been drumming for two years and he was all of a sudden in like one of the biggest rock bands in the country.
[00:24:28] But also he told this great story where the day it came out, he had to go to work at a record store where he had a job and his job involved, like shelving, black crow CDs. And he described sitting behind the counter all day just being like, buy one, buy one, buy one. But nobody did. He has no idea. That’s about to be the biggest band, you know, in the country.
[00:24:46] Anyway, uh, I love this morning drive show that we’re on, and, and I wanted to share that since you mentioned Frazier and radio.
[00:24:53] Brett: Yeah. All right. Uh, it, it’s typically false, or Christine, or do this
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[00:26:34] Brett: Zuck doc.com/ Overtired. Get that third time in there, you know, really sink into
[00:26:40] Christina: Really, really sync it in. Yes.
[00:26:42] Jeffrey: Nicely.
Where have all the good rom-coms gone?
[00:26:43] Brett: All right, so I, uh, my, my girlfriend and her sister, I’ll call her Elle, uh, um, and, and Kari, um, they wanted to have a, like a group watch movie night. Uh, Kari in Michigan were in Minnesota, and, um, they were interested in watching what somehow was in the top 10 Netflix movies.
[00:27:09] Um, a romcom called Your Place, or Mine not to be confused with the 2015 Japanese language film of the same name. Um, this is a new film with Reese Witherspoon, Reese Witherspoon, and.
[00:27:25] Christina: Ashton
[00:27:26] Brett: Ashton, Kucher and Kutcher, and, um,
[00:27:30] Christina: My Twitter friend.
[00:27:31] Brett: so I promised, I promised to be good, and I did. I bit my tongue. I didn’t say anything smart ass in the text chat or in the conversations.
[00:27:42] I just, I rolled with it, but it was so bad. It like, how did, how did Reese sign on? She’s, she’s got chops now.
[00:27:52] Christina: She,
[00:27:52] does, and she, and
[00:27:53] she’s
[00:27:53] Brett: deserves better.
[00:27:55] Christina: Well, the whole thing did, did you see all the, the drama about how bad, uh, the, the promo for it was? Like, and, and, okay, so, so this might add to, cause I wanna, I want you to, to complain, but just to set up some context that might make you even, uh, more perplexed. The, the promo when they had to go do the junket stuff or this in every photo he was in with her, like, he looked like he did not want to be there and like didn’t wanna touch her.
[00:28:19] And then his excuse was, he was like, oh, well if I, if I look like I’m, I’m too close to her, then people are gonna have like a rumor that we’re having an affair. And I don’t want that to happen. But it got, but it got so bad that Mila Kunis like stepped in and she was like, You look like you’re having a miserable time.
[00:28:38] What are you doing? Also, like, not for nothing, but I, I don’t think Reese’s is leaving her, her husband, uh, who, uh, she also has like a business relationship with, right? And, and, and it seems to be very much in love with, he’s not leaving Mila Kuni. Right? Like it, the, like, no one’s thinking that people would be like, oh, these two people might have like a good, might have good chemistry together.
[00:29:02] Um, I only saw the trailer and I was like, oh no, this is an Anne Hathaway, uh, um, uh, you know, James Franco situation where you think it makes sense and then the chemistry mash is just not
[00:29:13] Brett: they got some big names behind it, but holy shit. Just there was no. Even as a romcom, even following a romcom formula, it fell flat.
[00:29:24] Christina: It was no sweet Home Alabama.
[00:29:26] Brett: not interesting at all. I never saw Sweet Home Alabama.
[00:29:29] Christina: actually a good one. It’s actually a cute one.
[00:29:31] Josh Lucas and Patrick Dempsey.
[00:29:33] Brett: this just never had any, um, tension. Like you never thought, oh no, everything’s going wrong.
[00:29:40] I hope it ends well and everything and has a happy end. Like you never got to that point. It was just, it was just like slice of life. Boring.
[00:29:49] Jeffrey: But I wanna, I want to point out what to me is the most interesting part of this, which is you’re in a situation with, you’re with two other people, it’s a romcom and you are the one going, I hate this, but I don’t wanna say it,
[00:30:00] Christina: Right. You’re, you’re, you’re in, you’re in this
[00:30:02] Jeffrey: which is the right thing to do.
[00:30:04] Christina: is. No, that’s
[00:30:05] Brett: yeah. You know me though. I do not do a great job of keeping my mouth shut, so I, I was, my tongue was ready to bleed. I was biting it so hard and I just, But I did it. I was a good sport and, and just, I didn’t say anything negative. Um,
[00:30:22] Jeffrey: Even.
[00:30:23] Brett: think even after,
[00:30:25] Jeffrey: that’s the real challenge. You gotta go. It’s over. Now someone’s gonna ask me what I thought. I have to figure out how to say it without sounding a
[00:30:31] Brett: Okay. So l was able to pick up on my disappointment. Um, like, so like we were able to discuss honestly how I didn’t like it. But in the con, in the group chat and in our, like, we, after, after we finish a group watch, we always have a phone call just to like decompress whatever and, and talk about life.
[00:30:52] Um, and I, I kept my mouth shut through all of that. Um, I, I was pretty proud of myself.
[00:30:59] Christina: I’m very
[00:31:00] Brett: this is, this is, I, I’ve been holding onto this for the, for this episode to be able to vent.
[00:31:07] Jeffrey: he’d or so.
[00:31:10] Christina: Well, well, well, well, Carrie’s never gonna listen to this podcast. And, and Elle will appreciate that you, uh, if, if she listens we’ll appreciate that. Like you did the, the correct and the adult thing of like saving it for the pod. Um, what was so egregious about it? Cuz ti tid the reviews I read was like, was a chemistry mismatch and, and some other things.
[00:31:30] But she’s great, right? Like Grease is, grease is fantastic in, in everything she does. Like I, I’m, I’m, I love her. I’m like a genuine, huge, super
[00:31:38] fan of both her as an
[00:31:39] Brett: Little fires
[00:31:41] Christina: Little Fires everywhere,
[00:31:42] Brett: Yeah. So
[00:31:43] Christina: um, which is great. Big Little Lies was one of the best first se like the second season didn’t work as well cuz hadn’t been designed for that.
[00:31:49] But that was one of the best
[00:31:50] like mini-series freeway.
[00:31:53] Brett: Freeway was the first time I ever met Reese Witherspoon. Um, it was with, uh, what’s his name? Uh, lost Boys
[00:32:02] Christina: Yeah. Um,
[00:32:03] Jeffrey: Key for Sullivan.
[00:32:04] Brett: Keifer
[00:32:05] Christina: Yeah. Keep talking. That’s right. Yeah. He’s a big
[00:32:06] bad wolf.
[00:32:06] Brett: her Sutherland as like a serial killer and she’s like a runaway and it’s a little Red Riding Hood, modern Tale. Like that was the first time I ever saw her and I was sold.
[00:32:17] I was like, this girl is a great actress.
[00:32:21] Christina: I, I first saw her in her first film, which was, uh, the Man in the Moom, and I only saw that because my sister, who’s her age for some reason, I guess they wrote about it in 17 Magazine. This is the only thing I can imagine, because I don’t, I don’t know. I was like, I was like seven or eight years old.
[00:32:37] Um, but I, but I’m guessing they wrote about it in one of the teen magazines and she rented it from the video store. And this is like a small movie that still most people have never seen. It was her first film, and she was fantastic in it. And Roger Ebert famously, like in his review, he like called her out.
[00:32:51] He was, She’s going to be massive. And, and from that time forward, my sister is a huge fan and, and even though we don’t have a lot in common, like I did pick up on some of her tastes, but I’ve always really, really liked her and I love her as a business woman as much as I love her as an actress. So this is very sad to me.
[00:33:09] Like when I was seeing all the stuff failing
[00:33:12] Brett: so what was wrong with it? So, a romcom is two words, right? Romantic and comedy. Um, I did not laugh once. Uh, there was, there was, there were no, there was no situational comedy, there were no witty lines. It was very cut and dry. Uh, from the romance perspective, there was no, like, these two people belong together.
[00:33:37] I can’t wait to see it work out. There was none of that. Like, you guys just deserve each other. It was more like, well, they’re probably gonna end up together. It’s, it’s fate. Um, I, I’m not saying that a romcom needs to be unpredictable. They never. But this was like
[00:33:55] Christina: you,
[00:33:55] need to care.
[00:33:56] you need to care about the journey of them getting
[00:33:58] Brett: Yeah. You knew from the opening scene exactly how it was gonna end.
[00:34:01] Um, and you, and, and there was just so little storytelling. It just, it just did not intrigue me in any way.
[00:34:11] Christina: What’s disappointing about this to me is that a, there has been this dearth of romantic comedies, which is the one. Which is this thing that the Reese Witherspoon actually said in her press, like stuff for this. She did try, she did try to promote this movie, but I think everybody knew that this was not gonna land.
[00:34:27] And it’s a Netflix thing. They already got paid, who cares? But like, she commenting on the fact that there are no romcoms anymore. And there had been a time in her career before she won the Oscar where she was kind of been pegged to only doing romcom stuff. And then she was in that weird place where she won the Oscar and they’re like, well, how do we cast her?
[00:34:45] You know what, what? And nobody would cast her in anything. She had to create her own parts. But Romcoms used to be this massive business. And we have some of our, our best movies, our romantic comedies, like when Harry Met Sally is a great fucking movie, right? Like it’s a great script, but like Rob Reiner directed the hell out of that.
[00:35:01] Like there are some really great romantic comedies. But now, and you would think like, there, there are some on, on Netflix, but they’re not great. Um, cuz most Netflix movies are not. But it’s like everything went to the fucking Hallmark channel, which I’m sorry. I know my, like my dad’s real into the Hallmark channel, which weird, but cuz he’s my dad.
[00:35:21] My dad, I swear to God. Like he has, so he has some slight segue. He has some, like, my dad is a very masculine, heterosexual man. And, and I, and I say that because when I describe some of his idiosyncrasies, it will not sound that way. But my dad is like a man’s man, like nobody would ever doubt anything about.
[00:35:39] And, and it’s not even like, he’s like homophobic, but it’s just like he puts out, he’s like, just that energy comes across masculine. But he loves fucking romantic comedies and shit, like the Hallmark Channel. And when I was growing up, he had not won, but both Ali Mcil soundtracks and he’d play them in the car and I’d be like, what the fuck?
[00:36:00] Like, he’s, he’s, he’s into like, Celine Dion and, and, and Elvis and j. Anyways, it’s very, some my dad’s music case is very, very gay, but like stereotypically gay, but like, Other than the Hallmark channel, which has made massive amounts of money. Um, but those aren’t like the same thing as like a good old fashioned romcom.
[00:36:20] You know what I
[00:36:20] Brett: Speaking of, speaking of David Wayne, um, did you guys ever see they came together?
[00:36:26] Christina: yes.
[00:36:27] Because you recommended It
[00:36:28] Brett: it was his lampooning of romantic comedies starring, um, Amy Polar and Paul Rudd,
[00:36:35] Jeffrey: Oh right.
[00:36:37] Brett: it was, for me, to me it was hilarious.
[00:36:40] Christina: I thought it was funny. I remember, I remember watching because of you.
[00:36:42] Brett: like every single trope that you find in a romantic comedy, they found a way to lampoon and, and it was for someone who kind of hates romantic comedies, even though they kinda, like, love actually is a fucking great movie.
[00:36:57] I’m not gonna
[00:36:57] Christina: great movie. Absolutely. All, well, all, all, all of the, uh, studio Canal, like all of those, um, like all of those are
[00:37:04] Brett: I’m in, I’m in. But like, they came together just like lampooned it in a way that I found very appealing. Um, and that was 2014. And I can’t remember seeing a romantic comedy since 2014 that I’ve thought, oh, that despite the genre, that’s actually a really good movie. I don’t, I don’t think there’ve been one.
[00:37:25] Christina: No, I, I, I’m looking right now, it’s, I’m looking on the Wikipedia thing cuz it’s just easier to browse this of like, list of romantic comedies and I’m looking at the list and, uh, okay. Crazy Rich Asians, they classify that as a
[00:37:36] romantic comedy. That was great. That was a great fucking movie. Um, and, um, uh, uh, love Simon.
[00:37:44] Um, that was really sweet. But that’s more of a coming to beige film I
[00:37:47] Brett: saw that, I don’t
[00:37:48] Christina: Um, it’s, it’s like the first gay kind of like, teen coming of age, like, like romantic comedy kind of thing. So it’s, it’s great in that respect, in that it’s like, you know, a gay teenager and it’s not treated as like, you know, this big like, oh, like, like rot thing.
[00:38:04] It’s like, it’s like a romance. It’s, it’s great. Um, to all the boys I love, before this was a Netflix film, but it was, that was good. Uh, the first one was I thought that the other ones weren’t, but that was good. That was okay. Right. But also we might’ve given it a little bit over thing. Mama m here we go again.
[00:38:21] Surprisingly, surprisingly, I mean, I like the first one m uh, way more than it, cuz it was way better than it had any Right to be the, the, the sequel wasn’t awful. I didn’t love it the same way, but, but it
[00:38:31] wasn’t awful. But, but you’re right.
[00:38:33] Brett: love it.
[00:38:34] Christina: Um, but did you like the first one cuz the first one.
[00:38:36] Brett: I can’t remember the first one.
[00:38:38] Christina: Okay. Uh, the first one, you know, just, you don’t expect Meryl Streep to be just like all in on this stuff, which is,
[00:38:43] it’s just, it’s just delightful.
[00:38:45] You just don’t expect it. Um, but no, but I’m looking, you’re right. Like, I’m looking at this stuff and, and it’s,
[00:38:51] it’s, it’s a massive
[00:38:52] Brett: love actually
[00:38:54] Christina: No, no, we haven’t had that sort of
[00:38:56] Brett: even nodding hill. Like it
[00:38:58] Christina: I mean, all those about a boy, like, which is my personal favorite of, of,
[00:39:01] um, of those about a boy is a great film.
[00:39:04] Like, I still watch that. I still want his apartment from that, but No, you’re right. Like, we, like, since, I guess like, I guess probably the, the Kate Hudson heyday of like the mid two thousands. We haven’t really had, the proposal was probably the last really, really big one we had. That was with, uh, that was Sandra Bullock’s comeback with a, with, um, um, uh, what’s his face?
[00:39:25] Uh, uh, Ryan Reynolds. Um,
[00:39:28] Brett: I do love Ryan Ram.
[00:39:30] Christina: the, the proposal is fucking great. It’s, it’s a really funny movie, but, um, Yeah, that was 2009 and I’m looking now. Yeah. I, it’s, it’s been, um, God, yeah, it, it’s, we’ve had this dearth and it’s sad because I think it’s probably because, uh, big movies aren’t made anymore. I mean, not big movies, but small movies aren’t made anymore.
[00:39:51] It’s all just, you know, massive things.
[00:39:53] Brett: here’s the thing is Deadpool was a romantic comedy.
[00:39:57] Christina: true.
[00:39:58] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:58] Brett: so like, that’s what, that’s what Ellen and I watched on Valentine’s Day. I got her a Valentine’s Day card from Love Pop. That was a pop-up Deadpool, uh, with the thought bubble that says, love hurts, but you’re worth it. Um, like to me like that is like Marvel versus romantic comedy.
[00:40:17] Like that’s kind of where it has gone. Like the superhero version of a rom-com. Um, the kind of writing that you saw in the, in the mid two thousands just doesn’t seem to be, it’s not that people can’t do it anymore, it’s kind of people have moved on.
[00:40:35] Christina: Yeah.
[00:40:35] Brett: not that no good movies are coming up. There are a lot of good movies.
[00:40:39] Uh, people have just moved on from that witty, witty,
[00:40:43] Christina: is which. And, and the reason I think is because it’s really hard to get like a 20 million movie made. And, um, and, and, and that’s kind of the sweet spot for those budgets, right? Like, it’s really hard to get a 20 million movie made. It’s easy to get a 200 million movie made. It’s easy to get a 2 million movie made, but it’s hard to get like a 20 or 40 million movie made.
[00:41:02] And, and that’s kind of what you need for those things. Um, but, but it’s a shame because on paper you could see that Ashton and Reese would be cute together. Like he’s charming, you know, like he’s, he, he’s, he’s charismatic and she’s got chemistry with anybody. But, but it, it sucks that, um, that like, that’s not what this was.
[00:41:27] Um, Barbie, which the Greta Gwi film, which I cannot wait for, which will be out in July, that is classified as a romantic comedy. Um, and that’s gonna be of course, with, uh, um, uh, Ryan Gosling and, um, um, uh, what’s her face? Um, uh, Margot, um, Robbie, um, and the, the trailer for that looks bananas. And I, when they first started working on the Barbie movie, and they, it’s gone through so many different turnarounds, like it seemed awful.
[00:41:59] But then when Greta Gerwig signed on and then when we started seeing the set photos, I was like, okay, this, this might actually be really irreverent and good. Jeff, are you with us
[00:42:10] Jeffrey: I’m gonna paint a picture for you. Um, you know how astronauts when they’re gonna load into their rockets or space shuttle and they’re, they’re, they’re in these pressurized suits. They got their own piss and shit in there with ’em. They’re locked into their seats and they’re facing the skies. So there’s all this weight acting against them, and they sit there for hours and they don’t know how much longer they have to live.
[00:42:34] And if they’ve made the right decision, like, that’s how I feel whenever I’m watching a rom-com And like, I’m not an asshole about it. Like I cried at the notebook, which I realize is just a rom. Um, but for some reason I cannot though everyone around me has a general love for the cannon. Like, I can’t do it, and I’m not being a snob.
[00:42:57] I just, I feel like I’m suffocating. It’s probably probably from my
[00:43:00] Brett: failure to launch.
[00:43:02] Jeffrey: failure to
[00:43:03] Christina: to launch. Amazing. Amazing. Um, but, okay, but did you like when Harry met Sally, or does that one also like, do even like the Meg Ryan ones
[00:43:13] Jeffrey: So I have that in my, I have that that lives somewhere in my body because it was like cultural osmosis and I know I saw it and I’m pretty sure I liked it. I don’t think poorly of it. Of course, everyone thinks of like the orgasm at the cafe scene, right. But like,
[00:43:28] Brett: the most meed, the most meed scene
[00:43:31] Jeffrey: And that is all I can call up. Um, but I, I do remember liking that and I agree.
[00:43:36] I mean, I can definitely notice the cultural shift and like quality and, and even cadence and like whatever. Right. I caught the last like 20 minutes of the George Clooney, Julia Roberts, uh, number,
[00:43:48] Christina: Oh yeah.
[00:43:49] Jeffrey: oh. And I could watch Clone, I could watch Clooney in anything
[00:43:55] Christina: Same. I watched solos in the theater.
[00:44:01] Jeffrey: although nothing beats What movie was it? Where the, it’s a bank robbery in the beginning and it’s, I think it’s him and Jennifer. No,
[00:44:07] Christina: no, no, no, no. Out of, no Out of Sight. Out
[00:44:09] Jeffrey: sight and they, they, they run out of the bank after robbing it and they’re doing the thing where he’s trying to auto pop the locks.
[00:44:16] She opens the door too fast or he opens the door too fast. Like, I was like, this is the funniest thing I’ve ever seen.
[00:44:22] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. And then they’re in the car together and they had that sexual chemistry, that movie, which is not a romcom, that is, that is like a straight up, like noir, like thriller type thing. Like that
[00:44:30] Jeffrey: to watch that again. That was a
[00:44:31] Christina: is, that is honestly like one of my, like, that is in my top 10 list. And, and that,
[00:44:37] Jeffrey: that opening scene in the show notes.
[00:44:39] Christina: yeah. I, that, that, that, that is, that is my top 10 list.
[00:44:42] And, and that is a film that was introduced to me by the first guy that ever broke my heart. And so it is hard. It was like, it was like, it’s hard for me. Like this is how much, how good that movie is, is that even he couldn’t ruin out of sight.
[00:44:54] Brett: Oh,
[00:44:54] Christina: I was like, you know
[00:44:55] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:44:56] Christina: was like, I was like, I was like, you’re a piece of shit.
[00:44:58] And, and, and, and you told me you loved me so you could fuck me. And, and you still could not ruin this movie for me.
[00:45:08] Jeffrey: Yeah. Brutal. I’m just remembering as George Clooney is like smiling face to the bank teller as he’s robbing the, and he just says very, very gently, like,
[00:45:17] Christina: Oh, we’re robbing
[00:45:18] Jeffrey: this is your first robbery, isn’t it? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:45:20] Christina: And then, and then he leaves and and she’s like, have a great day. You too. She like realizes kind of like at what she said, cuz he was just so polite. He just walked in and just, just walked in and just, you know, walked out with the money. And, uh, yeah.
[00:45:32] Jeffrey: I ever told the story of being arrested for shoplifting in North Dakota?
[00:45:37] Brett: I have heard this story. I can’t
[00:45:39] Jeffrey: Maybe I’ve
[00:45:39] told it.
[00:45:40] Brett: on the podcast.
[00:45:41] Christina: I don’t, I don’t know,
[00:45:42] Jeffrey: It ends like that with it end . Oh, uh, . I do remember, I’ve told on the podcast before, actually, I think I told it one time when you were gone, Christina, but ultimately what happens is that I’m, I’m with this, um, secret shopper who caught me shoplifting, and he’s called the police.
[00:45:58] And I’m in a backroom waiting for the police officer room. I had, I had shoplifted some cheese in a roll of 35 millimeter film. And, um, I was on tour with my band. There’s just no, there’s no rules when you’re on tour . And, uh, and, and he and I were talking, I was asking him like, what, this is a crazy job you have.
[00:46:14] Like, what’s the craziest thing you caught someone stealing? You know, and he’s like, well, you know, I’ve sometimes girls are stealing tampons or condoms. And I was like, oh, that’s brutal. Why would, how do you feel about catching people doing that? Like, , that seems like it’d be hard for me. He’s like, no, I don’t like it.
[00:46:29] I don’t like it. Anyway, just before the police officer, uh, rolled in, he’s like, you know, I’m sorry. I have to do this. I really like you, . I was like, I was like, oh, thanks man. I, I don’t know. I haven’t made an opinion about you. Cause I think what you do is evil, but like . Anyway,
[00:46:46] Christina: That’s hysterical.
[00:46:48] Jeffrey: it’s a long story, but that’s the part that the Clooney thing reminded me of.
[00:46:51] Christina: he, he, he’s like, he like, did not wanna do it. He
[00:46:54] Jeffrey: Yeah, he’s off. I can take it back.
[00:46:56] Brett: in what movie? In what movie was George Clooney? Playing an actor playing a Roman centurion.
[00:47:04] Christina: oh. Um, yes.
[00:47:08] Jeffrey: I just started watching that for the first time a week ago. That’s
[00:47:11] Brett: Like I love that George Cloy takes some really shitty parts in, in mediocre movies,
[00:47:16] Jeffrey: I mean, it is a Cohen Brothers movie. Yeah.
[00:47:19] Christina: so well. He, he, he’s, he’s like the consummate. He’s just great at anything he does. And also, how else are you gonna pay for that villa? In, uh, in, in, in, in Paris or in Italy or wherever the hell he lives
[00:47:30] Brett: kind of like Brad Pitt doing 12 Monkeys.
[00:47:33] Jeffrey: any
[00:47:34] Brett: mean, like, not like today’s Brad Pitt, like bullet train sucked. Um, and Brad Pitt took that part and, and he pulled it off. But like 12 Monkeys, this is coming out of like Legends of the Fall, right? Like this is Brad Pitt is just
[00:47:47] Christina: He’s like,
[00:47:48] hot
[00:47:49] Brett: yeah. And
[00:47:50] Christina: interview with the vampire, like, he’s like the biggest like man in the, yeah.
[00:47:54] Brett: And then he does 12 Monkeys where he is just this fucking insane person. Before the Fight Club days,
[00:48:00] Christina: Right before he got cut. It led up to Fight Club for sure. But it was like, but it was this weird thing. Cause you’re like, wait a minute. You were always kind of this, you know, more heroic kind of guy. Dreamboat. Totally. Right. Like we all like fell in love with him, like
[00:48:12] girls my
[00:48:13] Brett: like I hated him like
[00:48:15] Christina: yeah, I know you did because you were a guy.
[00:48:17] Brett: was not cool to like the Dreamboat actor. It was cool. It was cooler to hate them.
[00:48:21] Christina: I, I, I was,
[00:48:22] Brett: came out and I was like, oh shit.
[00:48:25] Christina: I was 12 years old, so my perspective, I didn’t care about any of that. I was just like, this is the most beautiful man, and this makes me feel things in my other regions, you know? Um, like he, he’s very attractive. Like, that, that was my whole, you know, thing. I, I didn’t care about the coolness of it all, but it was, it was funny to see the, um, the evolution of like, men who hated Brad Pitt to then fight Club was the turning point where all of a sudden they were like, goddammit, all right, fine, fine.
[00:48:54] We’ll, we’ll accept.
[00:48:55] Jeffrey: Mm-hmm.
[00:48:56] Brett: He is one of us after all. All right,
[00:48:58] Christina: Right.
[00:48:59] Jeffrey: He can come through.
Grapptitude
[00:49:00] Brett: should we, uh, should we try some gratitude?
[00:49:03] Christina: Let’s definitely do some gratitude.
[00:49:05] Brett: I can cert, I, I know what to do. Um, there is a, i, i, newish, I guess, uh, terminal app called Kitty. Um, I discovered this
[00:49:18] Christina: oh, this, this, this is the Linux one, right? Or it was originally written for Linux.
[00:49:21] Brett: yeah, it’s cross-platform now. Um, it, it uses a, uh, a, a, the default color is a theme called cappuccino, um, which is a goddamn sexy color scheme.
[00:49:39] Like I’ve been using the Nord color scheme in, in terminal for quite a while. Uh, but then this, this, uh, syntax coloring kind of blew my mind. It was, it’s, I mean, there’s generally like 16 colors to work with, right? And, and your, your palette is pretty limited. And so it’s been a long time since a theme has actually looked, looked to me like it was better than what I was used to.
[00:50:11] Um, so this, this was a theme like that. And then I found out that it came from this terminal called Kitty, which I admit I have not tried yet. Uh, but I
[00:50:22] Christina: it’s okay. It’s okay.
[00:50:24] Brett: okay, I watched like an 18 minute video on all of its capabilities today. And it has some things like, uh, you can, with a keyboard shortcut, load the output from the last command into your pager.
[00:50:40] Uh, you hit command shift or control shift G and you, you know, pages long output from your last, like build command loads up in a pager and you can navigate it with. Keyboard shortcuts that you’re used to, and little things like that are like, I wish I term would incorporate something like that. Um, like I term, you can hit command, shift a to select all of the content from the last output, uh, which you can then pipe into a pager, but just a single keyboard shortcut for that kind of thing.
[00:51:12] And the script ability of kitty looks great.
[00:51:15] Christina: It is, it’s, uh, the, uh, the guy who makes it, uh, uh, COVID Goyle. He’s the guy who does Collibra, which is, which is not a great
[00:51:24] looking app.
[00:51:24] Brett: no,
[00:51:25] Christina: it’s.
[00:51:25] basically the only one. It’s not, it’s a pretty ugly app. Uh, but, but it’s very, very functional. Um, which was kind of my, I haven’t, I haven’t seen the theme you’re talking about, and so the theme, um, might change my mind, but as I recall, last time I used Kitty, that was sort of my same takeaway, was that it was very performant because that is one of the big things that was built on was to be very, very performant.
[00:51:46] Um, but that it’s not like I term is still has like a level of polish, but
[00:51:52] Brett: I’m dropping a link to Pacino Ka Capuchin, I guess it’s c a t p P u c c I N.
[00:52:00] Jeffrey: the.
[00:52:00] Christina: Okay.
[00:52:01] Brett: that link is
[00:52:03] Christina: Oh yeah, Kain. Okay. There we go. Yeah.
[00:52:05] Brett: Kain. Um, yeah, it is, it, it just looks so good. I love
[00:52:11] Christina: Yeah. So I love that. And, and it looks like that it works with that theme that you, you dropped. Thank you for that. Um, works with Alacrity, which is another, um, good terminal app. Um, if you’re talking about things that are, are like, that one’s built on rust, I think alacrity,
[00:52:25] Brett: Oh, haven’t tried that one either.
[00:52:26] Christina: which is, uh, a, um, uh, like, I think it’s a, it’s a rush driven, uh, rewrite of the terminal again for speed.
[00:52:34] But, but, but
[00:52:35] Brett: there are so
[00:52:36] Christina: a lot.
[00:52:37] Brett: that I just haven’t tried. Like I’m so, I’m so used to I term, every time I try, like Warp is a cool terminal, does a lot of cool stuff. Um, but I just haven’t, I’ve never been able to break the I term habit.
[00:52:51] Christina: Yeah, I’m, I’m in a similar situation, um, but because I’ve used more cross-platform tools than you have, um, uh, I, um, I’ve, I’ve played around with more of these things. Um, I will say like, if you don’t have I term like I do, I, and I think Kitty, like, I think that the, uh, I’m not taking anything away from like the technical achievements.
[00:53:09] It is a very, very performant, um, terminal. And that is something that I term can suffer with, especially if you have like a really big like Z shell profile, which, you know, whatever, like there, there are problems with, uh, with all the extensions and whatnot. Anyway, but, but,
[00:53:25] if,
[00:53:25] Brett: it, lags a bit. If you’re not using an async prompt in Phish, uh, I term can lag a bit. Just doing a regular cd.
[00:53:34] Christina: It totally can. And, and so depending on what you’re doing, some of these things, alacrity and, and, and kitty, um, are both really, really good with that. Hyper is one that people really like, but, but hyper is electron and I don’t have anything against electron apps, but for a terminal that is not go, I think that when they’re well made, I don’t have a problem with it,
[00:53:52] Brett: Yeah. Like I, I, one password electron. One password, no problem. I have not had a single problem with it,
[00:53:58] Christina: vs. Code. Great. Right.
[00:54:00] Brett: honestly, the reason I can’t switch to VS code is that it is electron and, and not because it’s electron, but because the fact that it’s electron causes certain quirks for me
[00:54:11] Christina: For you, right? Because you’re very right. But, but you’ve got very specific edge cases, which, which makes sense, right? But I’m just saying from a performance standpoint, like I don’t have a problem with Electron if it’s done well. Um, and, and nothing against the hyper folks, but like that was designed like, because they think it looks pretty and I’m just like, hmm,
[00:54:29] no.
[00:54:29] Whereas Alacrity and Kitty don’t have, like, they take the opposite approach. They’re like, how can we get as performant as possible versus
[00:54:37] Brett: Kitty, like it’s big. In the tagline, it talks about being offloading all of its processing to the gpu, uh, which is uncommon for a terminal app.
[00:54:48] Christina: I mean it’s, it’s more common now, um, like a i term added support for Windows Terminal does it? But, but historically that has not been what you’ve done. Cuz why would you? Right? Like the whole point of a terminal is it’s supposed to be able to run headless anywhere. And, and, and you wouldn’t, you know, if you’re on a server box, you, you wouldn’t want necessarily if you’re, you know, running the terminal locally and not remotely, um, you, you wouldn’t necessarily wanna be, um, dependent on that.
[00:55:12] But in modern workflows it makes a lot more sense. Yeah,
[00:55:17] Jeffrey: Right,
[00:55:18] Brett: All right. So that’s my, that’s my, uh, that’s my, my gratitude for the week.
[00:55:23] Christina: I’m, I’m gonna try out this, um, this theme. Um, cuz the theme actually, yeah, this looks good and it’s got like different colors cuz what is the one that I used? Um, let me open up my, I term
[00:55:36] Brett: By the way, this theme is available for literally every
[00:55:40] Christina: Yes, I
[00:55:40] w.
[00:55:41] Brett: a theme.
[00:55:42] Christina: Yeah, no, I looked at that and I was like, that’s fantastic.
[00:55:44] Um, so my terminal is, this is the only thing I hate about my term is that, um, it’s hard to find. My preset is snazzy and uh, I will find it and I will link to it, um, snazzy term, um, terminal theme. And because it’s in my GitHub stars, I’m sure. Um, and yeah, I really like that. But I’m gonna look at, um, this, uh, Capuchin cuz I like that.
[00:56:11] Um, do you have any picks, uh, Jeff to go for?
[00:56:16] Jeffrey: Um, last time I had a pick, it was the read wise reader, which is, which I’m, I have not been able to, it does not, it has not replaced instant paper for me yet, though I think it will one day. It’s just, there are just small little bits that are obstacles to my feeling like I can really live in it, but it has been amazing.
[00:56:35] But anyway, I’ve been a read wise user for much longer. And, um, one thing I’ve been using a lot, this. Just to go over old, um, highlights in my various, like in Insta Paper and Apple Books and Kindle, whatever is, is read wise is just like their service of importing highlights basically. So like I highlight a lot, but sometimes I’m like, to what end
[00:56:57] Like, why, why am I highlighting exactly. I don’t know. Um, but because I can import so many highlights and read wise and then export it as a markdown file, which is really what I’m, what I’m kind of repping here is that service. Um, it’s, it’s just, it makes me a more engaged reader and it, and it makes me think differently about, about how I highlight whatever else.
[00:57:18] And the cool thing is you can actually create a custom format for your exports. Um, and so you can make your marked on files look like whatever you want them to look like. Uh, and you can also, it, it differentiates. So like if you’re downloading it again, it’ll, it’ll give you the option of just downloading new highlights to that file or whatever.
[00:57:37] And so anyway, I’ve been in kind of like a creative mode and wanting to kinda look back at things I’ve, I’ve, uh, I’ve marked and highlighted and, and quotes that I liked or whatever to see if they can kind of fit into what I’m writing and, and read Wise has just been amazing for that. And you can import just from a ton of different sources.
[00:57:55] I just happen to use like Kindle, Insta Paper, apple Books, and the Read Wise reader. Um, but you can also like, you know, import Jason files, uh, that kind of stuff. So anyway, read wise again, uh, they just continue to be a really like, regular part of my life.
[00:58:12] Brett: Nice.
[00:58:13] Christina: I love it. I love it. Yeah. No, I, I started using it, um, after, uh, their, um, uh, their other service. Um, I heard about that cause I was like, I think this could be like, you like my Insta paper replacement because I’ve been an Insta paper. I still subscribe to Insta Paper and I don’t really know why at this point because I don’t have any personal connection to anybody involved in it.
[00:58:31] And I don’t even know who’s involved and if it’s even being really maintained and, you know, um, and I’ve never been a pocket person. I know that there were
[00:58:37] Jeffrey: Me neither. I can’t do it.
[00:58:39] Christina: but I was like at, I remember at, at, at, at a gizmoto when, um, when Insta Paper was, was sold or something like that happened and people were like, oh, just use Pocket.
[00:58:46] And, and I didn’t even have to say anything. One of my, uh, bosses, Alex, he was like, he was like, well, we’re an Insta Paper family. I was like, yes, yes we are. So I always
[00:58:56] Brett: you guys, did you ever
[00:58:57] Christina: when, when, when I think of that.
[00:58:59] Brett: did you ever see the Safari plugin I made for Insa paper? Way back in the early two thousands?
[00:59:04] Jeffrey: What did it do?
[00:59:05] Brett: It, it, like, first it reformatted it, so it looked a little more modern than it did at the time, and then it added keyboard shortcuts for just about everything that it could do.
[00:59:17] Christina: I
[00:59:17] remember that.
[00:59:18] Brett: I got really into hacking that for a little while, and then it, and then Safari came out with like the actual plugin architecture.
[00:59:25] Um, and I never updated it for that, so it kind of died. It was fun.
[00:59:31] Christina: Okay. So mine, and I think we’ve already talked about this one, and I apologize. I’m, and I’ve, I’ve taken this as an action item, uh, for myself. I’ve talked about it before, but I’ve actually literally now taken this as an action item, which means it will get done. Because I’m putting in on like my, my work stuff to do to actually create a, um, repository for us so that we can have a list of all these things and a website for all of you to go to.
[00:59:54] Um, I think we’ve talked about this before, but I’m gonna mention it again because, uh, I take so many f I take so many goddamn screenshots. Like no matter what I do in my life, I can’t ever get away from the fact that I take so many fucking
[01:00:08] Jeffrey: Yeah.
[01:00:09] Christina: and clean Shot X Really
[01:00:11] Brett: deserves to be repeated as
[01:00:12] Christina: It
[01:00:13] Jeffrey: I was hoping that’s what you were gonna say.
[01:00:15] Christina: it does.
[01:00:15] I mean, the thing is, I’ve used every screenshot tool and I still like, um, drop share. Uh, and, and I, I, I still appreciate like what, what they do. Um, I used to be, what was it called? It was all, uh, uh, cloud, uh, No, it was before dropper. It was, uh, it was like cloud. It is cld LY was was the short U url, but you could have a customized one too.
[01:00:40] And I paid for them. Um, and I paid for them for a long time. Um, and then they kept raising their prices and then were really like a agro about trying to get me different, like to, you know, like, um,
[01:00:57] Brett: I still pay for
[01:00:58] Christina: accounts and stuff. Um, and, uh, I stopped paying for, for those things. I did pay, like I bought a drop share license before it was part of setup.
[01:01:06] But, uh, both drop share and um, um, a cloud shot XR and setup, and the setup version. Um, this is also a free plug for setup. Uh, gives you access to the, um, hosted version, which includes custom domain support, which this was one of my favorite feelings of, of CloudShare, maybe that’s what it was called.
[01:01:25] CloudShare, uh, was that, You could, like I had a short U URL that I used and I could automatically upload my, you know, screenshots to that, have my short U url, but automatically go, I had like a keyboard shortcut automatically, you know, go to my clipboard, I could upload zip files and other things. It was great.
[01:01:44] Drop share is a, is a really good kind of drop in replacement for that. But cloud shot in terms of both creating videos and screenshots. Clean shot, sorry, clean shot X, sorry. Wanna be cleared? Clean shot X, um, for creating screenshots, uh, of all types. Matted with stuff behind them, doing annotations, sketch style videos.
[01:02:03] Scrolling.
[01:02:04] Brett: off the
[01:02:05] Jeffrey: just the text.
[01:02:06] Christina: Yes. Capturing just like is, it’s just such a good app that I, it’s one of those things. Um, I, I still have some of the actual screenshot tools mapped to some of my shortcuts, but for some of the other ones I’ve just full on mapped it to, um, cloud Shot X
[01:02:26] Brett: why do anything else? It’s so
[01:02:28] Christina: Yeah, the only reason I don’t have a command shift for uh, uh, tied to it is because I don’t always want to have a background on it.
[01:02:38] And there’s not a granular way for me with just like a hot key to say, add, uh, a desktop background or have
[01:02:44] this to
[01:02:44] Brett: should make that feature request cuz every time they release an update it adds something.
[01:02:50] Christina: I will make that feature
[01:02:51] Brett: it adds like a vital feature that I hadn’t even realized I wanted. Every
[01:02:55] Christina: Yeah. Cause if I could have that, I
[01:02:56] Brett: I’m like, oh shit. Yeah. That’s awesome.
[01:02:59] Christina: Yeah. If I had that ability to be able to, like, with a, with a, you know, hot key, um, toggle on or off the padding because some, the padding is oftentimes really, really great, but I don’t always want that. Um, if I could get out of that, that would be perfect.
[01:03:13] So, yeah. Uh, um, uh, clean Shot X is just such a good app, whether you get a setup or, or get it, you know, it’s a one-time purchase. I think it’s just, if you take screenshots or screen capturing it all, You have, you have to
[01:03:28] Brett: just as far as an elegant Mac app goes, it is the best app that I have seen in the last few years. Um, just one that does, it’s one thing so well that like you’re just constantly pleased. it can do that. Oh, it can do that. Oh, it does that in a way that’s so much smoother than I would’ve done it if I had written this.
[01:03:54] Um, just constantly makes me smile. I love clean shot.
[01:03:58] Jeffrey: And the preferences, which I’m going through now for the first time in a while are insane, like how you can customize this. I wanna say the very simple thing, the first thing I loved about Clean Shot, which probably isn’t totally unique. But I hate when I would take a screenshot with the system screenshotter, and then I would be like, the clock is ticking, it’s gonna disappear, and this one will just let ’em stack up.
[01:04:20] So if you’re just doing a bunch of ’em, you wanna deal with it later, they’re just stacking up and floating there for you. Beautiful.
[01:04:25] Brett: And you can go through and like choose the, so you took an errand screenshot, you just hit the X and it’s gone. You don’t have to delete the file, you don’t have to do
[01:04:34] Jeffrey: I take one err screenshot for every actual screenshot.
[01:04:37] Brett: Yeah. We all do
[01:04:39] Christina: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:40] Brett: Nice. All right. Well,
[01:04:44] Jeffrey: folks.
[01:04:45] Brett: I’m sorry about the extra editing that Jeff had to do before you all got to this perfectly polished point in the podcast.
[01:04:54] Jeffrey: Awesome. Good to see y’all. Good to
[01:04:56] Christina: good to see you. Good to, good to talk with both of you.
[01:04:59] Brett: Yeah. some.
[01:05:01] Jeffrey: think. I think you should get some sleep.
[01:05:03] Christina: Get some sleep, cooking beer. Get some sleep.
Marcin Wichary, author of Shift Happens, joins Brett and Christina to talk keyboards, the Playdate, and Mastodon.
You’re downloading today’s show from CacheFly’s network
BackBeat Media Podcast Network
Check out more episodes at overtiredpod.com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app. Find Brett as @ttscoff, Christina as @film_girl, Jeff as @jsguntzel, and follow Overtired at @ovrtrd on Twitter.
TranscriptThe Keyboard Episode
[00:00:00] Marcin: You can
[00:00:04] Brett: Hey, you’re listening to Overtired. Hi. Hi there. I’m Brett Terpstra. I am joined by Christina Warren This week Jeff is out, uh, but we have a special guest to take his place marching. Is it Witchery?
[00:00:18] Marcin: And there’s beginnings of
[00:00:19] Brett: Wickie Witchery.
[00:00:21] Marcin: of course the fonts you can swap. And it’s, you know, my, my kind of mental model was, it’s sort of like the last movie with special effects before CGI where, you know, it’s at dead
[00:00:31] Brett: Yeah. We have, I, I work, I work with a very international team, and some people have resorted to spelling their names phonetically for Amer for like American English speakers. And some people have just basically changed their name because that’s the way everybody says it. It,
[00:00:48] Marcin: incredibly complicated. So,
[00:00:49] Brett: uh, poor Stephan. Everyone calls him Stefan because it’s s t e f a N.
[00:00:55] Christina: I see. And which is how I would say it, but it’s stuff and yeah, that’s not so much.
[00:00:59] Brett: I do [00:01:00] my best. Like, first thing I ask people is like, how do you say your name? And then I do my best to remember, but a lot of times it throws me. So merchant is, he’s, he has a, a book coming out. It’s a Kickstarter right now, um, about keyboards and the history, like 150 years of the, the evolution and progression of the computer, keyboard and typewriter, keyboards and early input devices.
And it is, from what I’ve seen, it’s, it’s, it’s fascinating. I’ve only read excerpts that are up on the Kickstarter page around the shift Happens site, uh, if anyone wants to check it out, that’ll be on this show notes. But yeah, we’re excited to talk. We’re, we’re excited to nerd out about keyboards and, and all of the, uh, all of the work that went into that book today.
[00:01:47] Marcin: Great.
[00:01:48] Brett: how you guys, how, how are you guys, how are you?
[00:01:51] Christina: I’m, I’m good. I’m good. I’d love, love to hear from Merchant Martian because it’s been a busy couple of weeks, right? Because, uh, the, the Kickstarter went live what, uh, like, um, [00:02:00] last week or week before last.
[00:02:01] Marcin: Yeah, a a a week and a half ago. And, and, uh, it, it’s funny, it’s, it’s went really, it’s gone really well. I, I, I’m really grateful for people’s support because the book is, um, I like the book. I hope a lot of people like the book, but it’s a little bit of a strange book. It’s not like a usual book. It’s, it’s, it’s pretty nerdy.
It’s pretty deep, but it’s also very visual. And I think seeing people, um, you know, bucket and we met our goal in 102 hours. Um, it was incredibly validating, but it’s also a strength set of emotions for sure. It’s, it’s, uh, you know, the Kickstarter is kind of like, I mean, it’s going, but it’s, it’s met its goal, but that doesn’t.
The book is ready. The book is still half a year away, so it’s sort of like a strange moment of half celebration, which I think you, you don’t get with maybe traditional publishing, but, uh, you sort of inherited the strange sequence of steps. And, you know, it’s always interesting because [00:03:00] like, I think every big creative projects is tricky because even if it goes really well, it’s over in a way.
Like it is this sort of, it’s almost like a performance, you know, you bring something out there, people maybe like it, maybe don’t like it at probably a combination of both. And then, then there’s this strange like hollowness, right? There’s this sort of the end of the, the, this stage of performance. And so the Kickstarter was very exciting for a while, and then it started quieting down, which, you know, it would, everything would, and now it’s a little strange because I don’t know how to feel exactly.
[00:03:36] Brett: Yeah. Um, I think that’s true of anything that’s, that’s as, that’s as exciting as seeing 500 some thousand dollars come in. Um, there’s , there’s gonna be a, there’s gonna be a hollowness after that excitement is over. Um, Speaking of feeling hollow, you guys wanna do a quick, quick, uh, mental health check in, uh, a mental health corner.
[00:03:59] Mental Health Corner
[00:03:59] Brett: [00:04:00] Erin has told me she, she’s gonna work on our segue music, uh, but I have failed to get her, uh, my notes, so that’s on me at this point. But just imagine, if you will, some like martini music, uh, 1950s, maybe even zox voice saying Mental health corner. Just picture it. Just picture it. Uh, Christina, do you want to kick us off?
[00:04:28] Christina: Yes, mental health corner. Um, my mental health is, is, is pretty good this week. Uh, last week was kind of a mixed bag because I was getting back from vacation and there was the high vacation, which was awesome. And then I was immediately came back from vacation and, um, GitHub announced, um, layoffs and, and so, uh, which is, uh, unfortunately, you know, not, uh, unique for, for the tech industry right now.
Um, Microsoft had announced some, a few weeks. Uh, we’d hoped that we would [00:05:00] be immune. We were not. And, and so that’s, that’s hard. Uh, it brings up, as we’ve talked about on the podcast before, like a lot of past feelings about the industry I used to work in and the uncertainty of things. And it’s just, it’s, you know, and then obviously you, uh, you feel worse for all the people who are losing their jobs.
Um, in addition to the, the, the uncertainty about your own position and whatnot. And, and even though I, I, I feel, I think, I think we’re okay. Like there are no guarantees and, um, like my mediate concern isn’t like whether or not I’ll have a job because I, I think that I’ll be okay. Uh, even if I were to lose my job, I, I, uh, have, um, confidence that I would be able to find something.
Um, and, and at least I have savings, but it’s still hard. So it was sort of like this, uh, you know, like high of, of taking my first real vacation in several years and then, you know, immediately hit with like, The stress of, [00:06:00] um, layoffs and everything that comes along with that. Uh, but this week, um, you know, trying to kind of turn a page and I’ve, I’ve had some really good conversations with people and I’ve done some cool things.
Having, uh, marching on, on Rocket earlier this week was honestly a delight. And those sorts of things. Like when I do things that feed me creativity, like creatively, that helps my mental health a lot, even when there are other uncertain things happening. Like if I can do things that I feel fulfilled creatively, and I, I, I felt that this week, um, in a number of ways.
That’s really good. So I would say like I’m in a good place, but it’s, uh, it was definitely like if we had recorded last week, that would not have been great. Like, I would not have been in a good place to record last week.
[00:06:45] Brett: which is part of why we didn’t record last
[00:06:47] Christina: of what we didn’t. I was gonna say, I, I, I, not only do we not record this podcast, but I didn’t record the show that I do on YouTube.
And I do have some guilt about that because part of me is like, Suck it up. Your job is to [00:07:00] literally talk into the camera and to get excited and act, and I can do that. Um, even if I was in a really bad place, I could do that. The hard thing was I couldn’t write the script. I was, so, my, my A D H D got really outta control and I was like, I, if somebody else had a script for me, I could show up and suck it up and do it.
Right? Like I, I, I, I, I, I have that ability. I know not everybody does. I have that ability, even when things are like awful. Um, I, I’m, I can be bipo. It’s not bipolar. It’s, it’s, honestly, I don’t, I don’t, I don’t know if it’s a, I don’t know if it’s a good thing, but I can go from like screaming at someone to then immediately like, Hi, and welcome to, you know, like I could do that, that, that turn in two seconds.
Um, if I had to, but I couldn’t write the script. I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it and, and I couldn’t get it done in time for us to record, and I was just, I had to just tell, like my team, I was just like, I, I can’t do it. You know? Like if, if somebody had something pre-written for me, I could have done it, but I, I just can’t go through the [00:08:00] motions of like getting myself focused enough to actually write what I needed to write and research what I needed to research, you know, that I, I was not unable to do.
[00:08:10] Brett: I think knowing you as an ADHD person, if, if enough stress had been put on you. . Um, if enough pressure had been behind, like, you do this or you are fired, or you do this, or we kidnap your mom, like, you could, you could pull it off.
[00:08:28] Christina: Oh, totally,
[00:08:28] Brett: you could, but Yeah. Given, given the ability to take the out Yeah.
I can see for sure why you did that,
[00:08:35] Christina: And, and, and that’s what you’re exactly right. Um, I think back about when Mashable had layoffs, and that was like one of the worst experiences of my professional life and will probably remain that because it was just so hard. And the following week I had to fly to California to go to, um, a, a secur, an on background security briefing with Apple.
And I booked my flight to the wrong co [00:09:00] to to, to the wrong San Jose. And which I realized right before I boarded a flight to Costa Rica, thankfully I did not get on the plane. Um, and then had to
[00:09:08] Brett: I was, I was gonna say, where’s the wrong.
[00:09:12] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, the airport codes are similar. Concur messed up. They’re, uh, I’ll take the, the L on some of it, but it’s also, it’s one of my favorite stories because. I did almost go to the wrong Costa R or go to the wrong San Jose, but you’re right. And then that moment where it did feel very much like everything was at stake, where I was like, if you don’t, this is a very important thing you go to, we’ve just laid off 10% of the staff and or more than that 20% of the staff.
And, um, the money is, is not great and you’re going on this trip because they’ve approved it and you cannot screw up. So when people were like, oh, you should have just gone to Costa Rica, and I was like, no, , you know, I, I, I I, I transferred like three other cities and had to go on a ridiculous process to finally get there.
But I did. But yeah, you’re right. If, if it had been like [00:10:00] enough stress, I could have done it. But, um, fortunately.
[00:10:03] Brett: you, sometimes you don’t fuck around and find out.
[00:10:06] Christina: Exactly, exactly. So that, that, that’s my update.
[00:10:10] Brett: All right. Well, speaking of feeling creatively fulfilled, I am not, and it is killing me. I, I am, I’m writing content for work and it’s not like I have found things I’m excited about. Did you know that you can create a virtual box image and with the click of a button, deploy it as a compute instance on Oracle Cloud?
To me, that’s interesting. Uh, you, you, like, you can build your own local Oracle Linux box. and deploy it as a cloud machine and it’ll generate all the same processors and, and memory set up and, um, all of the command line utilities that you’ve installed fastidiously with their, uh, with Oracle Lennox’s package manager and everything, and you can just push it [00:11:00] to the cloud.
And like that’s interesting to me that I can get excited about that. I have fun playing with right now. I’m writing a deep dive on like command line parameters for the, like flags for a command line tool because I just needed content to come out this week and I haven’t had the motivation to do any personal coding projects.
And I decided my project was going to be, to start watching, um, breaking bad alternating with Malcolm in the middle, uh, just to try to get the Brian Cranston juxtaposition. But it didn’t work out. I ended up going all in on Breaking Bad. So I, I’m on season three because I just don’t have the motivation to do anything else with my time right now.
Um, I, uh, it, it was, it was an interesting experiment, uh, seeing Brian Cranston as like the, uh, what would you call his Malcolm in the middle [00:12:00] character, befuddled, um, quirky, uh, , the, the comedic dad, uh, versus the, uh, breaking bad. Brian Cranston was quite a, it was a trip. But anyway, I, I need, I, I, I need mania.
Uh, I mean, we know what happens if I’m stable for too long and I have been stable and, um, like I’m, my brain is starting to think. . What if I accidentally took two of my A D H D meds today? Or what if I made myself stay up all night and just kind of push that line of like, uh, being okay versus being manic and just try to trigger a manic episode.
And that, like, I talk myself out of it every time because I know what that leads to as well. Um,
[00:12:51] Christina: right?
[00:12:51] Brett: which is to say, I, I know that that leads to being very tired and, and unproductive. Like my mania doesn’t get very dangerous. Like, I don’t, [00:13:00] I don’t gamble. I don’t have crazy sex. I don’t hurt anybody. Um, I, I write code, but it also means not sleeping and being very unhealthy.
And, anyway, anyway, that’s me. So we saved marching for last. Uh, you can choose, you can choose to partake in the mental health corner. Uh, if there’s anything you wanna share. Um, but you can also pass.
[00:13:26] Marcin: Um, I, I wanna share, I, I don’t know how much of this is, uh, the listeners don’t know me, so the context might be missing and, but I already started a little bit about, you know, how, um, sort of getting your, this big personal project that was like the, the book has become so big that it almost became like a partner.
Like, like, like, like something that was accompanying my life for many years. And it still is with its own moods and its own sort of, you know, um, uh, conventions and, [00:14:00] and, and, and, and so like, at, at, at no point, uh, I know whether the book is gonna be kind to me today or is it gonna be, you know, cruel and whatnot.
So, uh, so it’s definitely become like this strange big personal project. And in addition to the fact that I’ve in, in many numerous ways tried to do the book, the my my Way, you know, kind of like put something out there that’s really just like me in a book form. And it obviously has challenges whenever somebody then pokes at the book when it’s out there, or even the website or a Kickstarter and say, I don’t like it, or, or I don’t know about that.
Luckily enough people seem to be liking it, and actually it’s been incredibly. Wonderful and, and, and warm for me to see all of my friends from my prior lives and careers and just nooks and crannies of life saying like, oh, finally I was waiting. I was like, I, you know, we haven’t talked in 10 years, but I’m glad you’re here.
But there were also moments, [00:15:00] uh, honestly, uh, where I was, um, frustrated because I think maybe for the first time in my life, I’m a white guy, so my Twitter life is very easy in general. But I think this was the first time where I got angry at people mansplaining things to me about keyboards, where I was like, Hey, I j i, I just wrote a book about this. think I kind of know a lot , so you don’t have to tell me things. I, and, and, and it’s this, and I kind of started understanding how, how complicated that is, because some of their feedback was great. And I don’t wanna say like, don’t tell me anything about anything. I, I want feedback. I’m a designer in my real life and feedback is currency.
Like I want to be good. But there’s some moments which is like, I kind of wanna stop you right here because this is just annoying to me. So,
[00:15:46] Brett: Do you know who I am?
[00:15:48] Marcin: yeah, exactly. . So, uh, so, so that was really, I’m gonna say interesting, mostly all positive. [00:16:00] Um, there are people helping me out there, people checking in with me, which is really great.
But there definitely was heightened emotions. And Christina, you mentioned tech industry. I’m also part of tech industry in my real life, but I didn’t have as much time in the last weeks to think about it because the, the book. Um, took such a big part of my life and sort of like getting it out there and, and having a Kickstarter for your project is its own project
It’s sort of like the secondary sort of sidecar project a as I’m learning. Um, and the last thing I wanted to mention, I went to my first boxing class in my life and that was fun. And it turns out I like punching things, so I don’t know what it says about me.
[00:16:39] Christina: That’s great.
[00:16:40] Marcin: there was, there was a fun discovery.
[00:16:42] Brett: did you also get punched?
[00:16:45] Marcin: No, I was, I was put next to a punching bag as, as a, as a, as a rookie,
[00:16:49] Brett: I was just curious because that, that seems like the other half of boxing is getting punched,
[00:16:54] Marcin: No, I
think, I
[00:16:55] Brett: have to like both.
[00:16:57] Marcin: yeah, I think that’s gonna come next. Uh, we’ll see, [00:17:00] we’ll see how it goes. But the first one was,
[00:17:01] Brett: gonna go back. You’re gonna keep
[00:17:03] Marcin: I’m going back. Yeah.
[00:17:04] The Keyboard Corner
[00:17:04] Brett: All right. right. Um, so, uh, now onto the keyboard corner, shall we, um, we, we were talking before the show, before Christina got here, um, about how you are not actually like a mechanical keyboard nerd in the way that, uh, kind of the community exists, uh, today.
Uh, people that are very worried about walk and sizzle and, and soldering and, uh, and lubricating their switches and like, that’s not necessarily, uh, you, uh, so what, what is your general, what is your interest in keyboards?
[00:17:48] Marcin: Yeah, I, I, I, I think numerous by, by this point, uh, and I have a mechanical keyboard. Um, I, I think I just needs to be obsessed. About [00:18:00] keyboards in general, including their history and the sort of societal aspects and, and the software and all of that stuff. So, uh, so I, I, I think partly, you know, my role is to be an observer, but I think originally, so I’m, I’m, I’m a UX designer with, with a big, sort of serving of an engineer on the side.
And so I think originally the keyboards were just really interesting because they’re, you know, they’re the interface between people and computers, um, and. and I started being curious like who designed them. Um, and it turns out really nobody . My book is actually called Shift Happens. It’s kind of a joke, but it really is actually meaningful to me in the sense that keyboards just sort of happened.
It was like 150 years of them happening over and over again, and there was nobody in charge. And there’s this, this strange evolution of things and the fact that, [00:19:00] um, if you look at the keyboard from 150 years ago, the first query keyboard, and you look at the keyboard you have under your fingertips right now, they’re both almost the same.
Which is really strange. It’s still query. You could, you know, grab the person who invented it and put, sit them in front of your computer today. They, they would know what to do. But of course, they’re also incredibly different. They’re attached to very different devices. They’re serve different purposes. We, we spent much more time talking with our fingers now than writing, which is not something that happened even 20 years ago.
So there was a sort of desire to, or interest for me in that all of the design aspects, like who’s using them, what problems they’re solving, how they evolve as an object, how the technology that was attached to the keyboards changed the nature of keyboards, et cetera, et cetera. Right? Like, like, like, so, so all of this.
And I found, um, and there are some books that talk about typewriters. Um, and they’re definitely, you know, a lot of contemporary writing about mechanical keyboards because it’s a [00:20:00] big thing now. But there was nothing that connected all of this. Uh, and I just wanted, for a while, I wanted it to exist and then I decided that I will make that exist.
This sort of grand story of how it all happened over the last century and a half.
[00:20:17] Brett: So, so you’ve been researching this for like six years, right?
[00:20:21] Marcin: Yeah.
[00:20:22] Brett: And probably before that as well, but like actually working on the book for, for six years. What is, what is the strangest keyboard you ran into?
[00:20:33] Marcin: Oh, my , there are many strange keyboards. I, um, it’s really actually hard to say because on any given week I will give you a different answer. Uh, but. I have this, uh, the, the, the recent strange one. Um, I have this, uh, watch. It’s a, it’s a sec watch from the 1980s, and it has what I think is the smallest keyboard ever keyboard ever made.[00:21:00]
Each key is, um, like one millimeter. It’s not even a key. Like you’re not touching it. It’s, it’s more like a, you go left and right and then, and then you, you, you know, it’s an what, what would they call, what they would call an index typewriter? An index keyboard today. You know, like how you type in your Apple TV password or, or your Xbox thing.
So, so, but it’s so, it’s comical. It’s so tiny. It’s like the watch is not even that big because eighties watches were, and, and, uh, it’s neither a key, uh, really nor a board in a way, but it is kind of, kind of cute that they tried to do it and it’s really pain to use, but, uh, it’s kind of fun to have like the smallest keyboard.
I’ve never, I’ve never heard of a smaller one in my life. So that’s, that’s the most recent strange cure that I learned of. And of course it’s in a
[00:21:45] Christina: love that. And,
[00:21:47] Brett: a, I had a calculator watch. Sorry, go ahead, Christina.
[00:21:51] Christina: no, no, no. That, no, that, that’s, that would also be like a similar thing, a calculator watch. I was just gonna ask like, what, what’s your favorite keyboard personally [00:22:00] from any era? Teletype, typewriter, computer, whatever.
[00:22:05] Marcin: um, uh, yeah, I think the one that I was. Maybe, you know, if you count like my amazement, um, as a metric. Uh, so for longest time I’ve heard about electric as being like the ultimate keyboard, right? Like there’s, um, I think people of a certain age say Model M and then people a little bit older say electric and it’s just like over and over again.
And it’s really interesting because I’m always suspicious of people like saying like, oh, the, they picked with the electric and then it all went to hell because, you know, like they don’t make them like they used to. It’s generally like scary attitude often and, and maybe there’s some version of gatekeeping.
It’s just like the bad nostalgia. So I was just like, whatever, electric, fine. And then I rented one for a week from, from a, from a local typewriter store, which is a funny thing to say. and, uh, [00:23:00] it was actually really amazing. I was, so, first of all, it’s a beautiful object, this electric, like it was beautiful in the 1960s, but it’s still a beautiful object today.
And, and then as I typed on it, I actually realized it’s, it’s much, it’s much more like a computer keyboard, but there’s no electronics in it. It’s still electromechanical, but it made it feel so smooth and, and it has the features that you would expect from a computer. Like you can type. You can press two keys at the same time and mechanically through like a very clever system of ball bearings, it would allow you to press two and it would remember the second one.
Or if you press enter and the courage still goes to the beginning, you know, it takes a while, you can press another key and it will not lose it. And there’s beginnings of arrow keys there. And of course the fonts you can swap. And it’s, you know, my, my kind of mental model was, it’s sort of like the last movie with special effects before CGI [00:24:00] where, you know, it’s at dead end, but you really appreciate how much effort and, and it’s, it’s, it’s an incredibly complex object inside.
It’s really, it’s, I think, 5,000 parts. You could, in the sixties, seventies, eighties, you could have a career of fixing electrics because they were both incredibly popular but also incredibly complicated. So, so you also appreciate this like, really complex object in a way that Of course. Everything we do today in software is probably more complex, but you don’t see it, right?
You don’t, you don’t have a sense of how complex things are. And this one you could open up and see like, oh my God, okay, this is not a regular type priority. This is some next level stuff. And, and I think to me, it was just kinda amazing, right? It was maybe like the last impressive type priority you could relate to because, you know, the, the electronic typewriter, the iPhone keyboard, all of the machine learning today, it’s, it’s just there, right?
It’s just there in a cloud doing its own thing. Um, and any mechanical keyboard today is actually incredibly [00:25:00] simple, right? It’s, it’s just like the same switch over and over again. So there was something about this like built device and, and it really felt wonderful. And your fingerprints, I was like, okay, I see how people will remember this.
I see how people try for it. And the funny thing is that the last thing maybe I wanted to mention, um, and people kind of forget this, the. People love the electric so much by the way, you can blame electric for the caps lock key being in a place it is today, which every programmer hates. Um, programmer lost that battle in the early eighties.
There was a literal battle. Um, people who use electric were just like, no, this has to be like electric. So they moved it back. But, uh, people loved it so much that IBM like forever tried to recreate that feeling. So first there were beam springing keyboards. There were the, you know, seventies kind of term, really expensive terminal keyboards.
And then there was the model F, which was the cheaper version of a beams springing. And then there was the [00:26:00] Model M, which was a cheaper version of the Model F. So it’s funny because the Model M, which people today say it’s one of the most wonderful keyboards, right? It’s the king of click is the God’s own keyboard.
It’s like the fourth water down version of the electric. Uh, which, you know, just tells you how funny, how funny it is, how history works, right? Like,
[00:26:21] Brett: Yeah. So do you think it’s a, a feature or a bug that the complexity is hidden now? Um, well, the complexity by and large has moved into the realm of software, like you said, like a mechanical keyboard Today is just, it’s a bunch of switches on a board. Um, and, and most people using a computer have no idea how complex the software they’re using is.
But is that, is that good or is that bad?
[00:26:52] Marcin: I think it’s, well, you know, it depends if the software is good itself. I think like, you know, if I see a bad, bad web [00:27:00] app, I kind of wanna fix it , and it’s not, it’s not really possible with the exception of maybe, you know, overriding CSS and
[00:27:06] Brett: Uhhuh.
[00:27:06] Marcin: like that. Um, I, I, I, if it’s go, if it works well, it might be okay.
But I think there is something, I think what we lost. To some extent is you can just like pick under the hood of software as easily as maybe you used to. And also, I don’t think we ever figure out how to make software exciting for people who don’t care. Like in a way you can sort of, you know, again, open the hood of your car, well not today, but to 20, 30 years ago and, or, or, you know, or just like get, get a packet of Lego and kind of like appreciate the, the bits and pieces and the whole result.
I, uh, I think, you know, view source was the last maybe example of that. And there are, you know, modern version of view source. Of course there’s um, but, but software is, is like, can be so beautiful and not even like well-written software, like software bags can be beautiful and fascinating. [00:28:00] But I, I’m, I’m, I’m still waiting for like, maybe waiting for more like storytellers in that space because I, I think there’s so much more we could do to, to just get people.
Excited and understanding. You know, maybe, I just really remember one of the foundational works of art for me was the Soul of the New Machine, the book from I think early eighties. And it was, you know, because
[00:28:29] Christina: a great.
[00:28:30] Marcin: yeah, it was the book about ostensibly, it’s the same way, uh, like my favorite movie Sneakers is ostensibly about technology, but it’s just really about people and emotions and, and, and the soul of the New Machine.
The book was about like, how is it to create a computer and how it is to sort of negotiate with olive’s, feelings of having this sort of creative pursuit, but in this really strange space. And, and I think I’m, I’m, I’m just hoping we see more of those kind of [00:29:00] stories, uh, told, because I think we lost some of that sort of wonder of.
[00:29:05] Christina: Yeah. No, I think you’re right. I think you’re exactly right. I, it was funny right before the reason I was late to record this podcast, not that the audience cares, but I’ll, I’ll share anyway, is, I was recording, um, another podcast and I was talking about, um, it’s called The Last Detail. And I was talking about, um, Manita Claires, and was, was, was, cause it’s a podcast where you like focus on like hyper focus on like one particular object.
And I kind of. Really follow the script because we were talking less about the specific object, which was interesting and I loved, but, but more about like mini disks themselves. And a lot of that was kind of the personality and kind of the, the weirdness and the like, the care that went into that, which, which we don’t have today, right?
Like, like the consideration. And you know, cuz and I, I, I almost wonder if that’s part of the reason why there has been that such a resurgence in, in the keyboard community [00:30:00] is that we’ve all just kind of become bored with the status quo. And there is something about being able to really customize and really be particular about what you’re doing, even if it’s not to, to, to the level of, of like the, the soul of the new machine or like what, what, um, was happening with like the selecta and, and, and, uh, like typewriters.
But there is still this thing, which is like, okay, things have kind of become soulless and a way of injecting humanity and personality and, and whimsy into our, our computing is by obsessing over thought and, and key caps and switches and, and, and weight, you know, and, and, and all that stuff. And, and I, I wonder if that’s maybe part of it is that we’re all like seeking that bit of humanity, that that is, felt like it’s been lost a little bit, but which was a core part of why computing exploded to begin with.
Because if you hadn’t had that human, human aspect just like, you know, sneakers, [00:31:00] like, I don’t know if it would’ve taken off, right? Because there are so many technological things that don’t have that kind of through line. But you could see it in the early computers. I mean, especially with Apple machines, but even with the I B M PC that you could see the humanity, you could see, you could, it, it was, is kind of a.
it. It was like more than just an object, you know?
[00:31:24] Marcin: Yeah.
[00:31:24] Brett: I, I just gotta interject that like marching brought up, looking under the hood of a car, um, which will like my dad at, in high school, like he. Bought parts from a junkyard and built his own first car. Like you can’t do that now. Like we are separated. We have separate, like a car used to be a thing. Any, anyone with the motivation could take their car apart and see how it works.
And like, we’re separated from that now and I do think it removes a certain amount of humanity from the machine.
[00:31:57] Christina: I think you’re right.[00:32:00]
[00:32:01] Marcin: Yeah, my, my my, it’s funny that you mentioned your dad. Like, uh, my dad’s job, uh, when I was a kid, was perfect for me because he was, uh, an arcade game and pinball repairman.
[00:32:13] Brett: Nice.
[00:32:14] Marcin: he would be sent all of the
arcades and, and you know, I still remember, uh, for people who remember pinballs, like, um, or if you have a pinball nearby, uh, which I think a lot of people do still, you just maybe have to find it, but they’re all of this, they’re modern arcades.
Uh, ask them to open it up for you and you know, they can remove the glass and take the whole play field and move it up. And you can see under the play field at all of the solenoids and switches and stuff and light bulbs. And, and to me seeing that was like a revelation because it was, you know, it’s sort of like view sourced for a pinball, but you know, you can like stick your finger there.
You actually probably don’t wanna stick your finger there. You stick, stick a pen that. So noise can actually hurt you. But, uh, speaking from experience, but you [00:33:00] know, you can sort of like see how it’s made and you can see like some logic choices that they made or. Cost cutting choices or some, you know, algorithm choices.
And, uh, there’s some, the bugging modes in software for all these pinballs from the eighties and, and award and it, and it’s just this wonderful thing where you realize like, oh, even play has to be designed and even play has to be considered. And, and, and even play has to succumb to like boring logic. And how do you sort of creatively use that logic?
And so, uh, yeah. I, I think Christina, you are also right that it’s like, I, I think keyboards probably resonate along the same lines. Like you just, just solely, maybe you can open them and you can like grab a KickUp and remove it and grab a switch and remove it or open a switch. This is like multiple layers of discovery there.
If you’re interested, you can get us go even deeper and solder it. If you’re interested on a different level, you. Change the software to do some things right? You can, you can be the next vak, you probably also fail, but you’ll , [00:34:00] you’ll have, you’ll have your layout and you can use it and maybe convince a few people to use it as well, or, or do something completely random.
Like my, one of the people that, uh, that I interviewed for the book just, you know, made a keyboard with this unique layout made out of wood, uh, because there were no keyboards made out of wood before. Um, and, and, and, and it’s kind of interesting and, and, and you can start very simply as well, right? You can just grab one kick up or, or buy like one extra keyboard and see how it makes you feel, or, or, or, um, I don’t know, just like add one keyboard, ma you know, combination to keyboard mast and, and, and feel just kind of like a little bit more excited about it.
[00:34:39] Brett: Oh, are we gonna talk about keyboard maestro?
[00:34:41] Christina: We could, I was gonna say you, you spoke, uh, Brett’s language. Because, because that, that’s like.
[00:34:47] Brett: Um, speaking of bizarre keyboard layouts though, uh, someone, someone in our discord, and I’ve forgotten who, and I’ve forgotten what it’s called, but there was a keyboard layout that started with t h e, [00:35:00] um, and the keyboard layout was based on like the most common letter combinations when writing in English.
And it was like, I took a look at the keyboard. I, I knew that my brain was never going to rock like this entirely different. And I’ve tried Dvorak, like I, I, I, I was, I grew up, I grew up in the eighties. Like I, I typed on Cordy keyboards and it’s home. My brain, I think is ever going to be able to take in as far as touch typing goes without having to like look at the keyboard all the time.
Uh, it, the idea of like smarter keyboard layouts, uh, it, it’s kind of fascinating. It’s, it’s like you said, Cordy. Been around for like 150 years and even though it’s not the smartest layout, everyone can agree it’s not the, the most intelligent organization of the Keys. It still has, it is one diamond again.
[00:35:55] Marcin: I see. I’m gonna like, I’m always [00:36:00] fascinated by people kind of, um, hating on query because, um, yes, they pro like I would say they could be smarter layouts. Um, but I also wonder, like using VA as an example, right? So August VAK came up with this thing in, I think the thirties, 1930s, 1940s. Which is funny because it seems likeon ago, but it, this was like, 60, 70 years after the keyboard, um, was invented.
Right? So, so, so, uh, you know, time, uh, history compresses events, but, you know, so qu has been around for a while and he, he didn’t mean war, right? He, he called qu the primitive torture board. He wrote the whole book was called Typewriting Behavior, saying basically the premise of the book was squarely sucks, , what are you doing here?
Right? And he had this whole math and really an amazing set of considerations, uh, for how fingers travel on the keyboard and where the letters should be and how people [00:37:00] make mistakes. And even just like the psychology of typing, like this whole chapter about like laziness of all things. And, and so really strange, an amazing book, and I would recommend reading it for people who are interested.
and then he had this layout and kind of nothing happened because I think VAK kind of forgot that like, well, you, you, the quote unquote smartest layout, it only takes you so far. Like you still have to, you still have to, on one hand you have to market it, you have to build it, you have to convince people, you know, you working against motor memory of generations at this point.
But then like, I think what he also ignored is that like, What, what if the, what if the premise is wrong? And what if court is actually good or at least good enough? Like what if the fact that it’s been used for 60 years is like not an accident? Like people like to believe that it’s just like this one time where market chose poorly, right?
It’s like it’s, we chose VHS against beta [00:38:00] max, right? And which actually also has been debunked. VHS is supposedly actually really good. But, um, but the funny thing is that like even in the seven years that he’s seen keyboards, keyboards change, like we progressively see fewer and fewer people, professional typing.
The keyboards become, quote unquote more and more ergonomic every five years. Even if you don’t buy a ergonomic keyboard, a keyboard is just softer on our fingers and better. And, and query was okay. It was actually intentional from, from what we can tell, it wasn’t like an accident. It wasn’t there to slow people down.
It was actually very thoughtful. Um, and it’s. And it’s only gotten better because the way we use keyboards and the keyboards themselves gotten better. So in a way, you know, maybe for some people, yes, some people have problems with their shoulders, with their arms, with their, uh, wrists. Um, there’s a lot of people who would benefit from an improvement over like a $10 Dell [00:39:00] quality keyboard.
But for vast majority of people, I, I’m gonna say it’s probably good . You don’t have to worry. And particularly even touch typing. I think we’ve seen studies that say like, touch typing maybe kind of overrated too. Like you don’t have to touch type perfectly to be okay. Um, and so that’s kind of interesting.
Like I’m actually, I’ve become a fan of quirky through writing this
[00:39:22] Brett: Was
[00:39:23] Marcin: which I didn’t expect.
[00:39:24] Brett: Was there an industry that cemented Cordy as like the keyboard, like in the, in the VHS Beta Wars. It was really the porn industry that, that made VHS win. At the time that Quy kind of became popular. Was there an industry that that made it the forefront?
[00:39:45] Marcin: So, so what’s really interesting about, uh, query is that it was the first one, I mean, obviously there were typewriters before the query typewriter, um, but most of them were not mass [00:40:00] produced. Uh, most of them didn’t really go very far. They, you know, they, you couldn’t actually use them well, or they didn’t print well and Kuti just happened to be the first or, or the first big commercial layout.
And, and so it, it always faced competition from day one and it always somehow managed to, um, to, to win. And I think the first use cases for query were. Qu actually invented bureaucracy qu and elevators, right? They, they, they invented offices in bureaucracy. So that’s kinda like a funny thing to think about.
Uh, but also, uh, you know, I think it was, so it was like early, early typing for offices, but it was also transcribing Morse communication. And we know that, like the person who invented the, the early typewriter, um, the query typewriter, he cared about that. So he was pretty smart about like, knowing what the use cases are and knowing what’s the minimum speed, which was maybe 30 to 40, uh, watts per minute, [00:41:00] um, should be achievable.
And like, you know, like many good inventors, they mostly focus, or he and and his team mostly focus on picking the right bottles, right? So the first typewriter didn’t have uppercase, sorry, lowercase, because, eh, maybe not as important. That only came like, you know, within the next decade. But, you know, the print looked.
And you could get a certain speed and it wasn’t jamming, right. So, so the whole query was designed not to slow people down. It was the opposites to, to make it both, um, faster type and to make it easier to, for the machine to actually work. Right. So this interesting concept of like human considerations, but also machine considerations.
[00:41:43] Brett: Huh. Oh, so like, uh, like it’s be, is it designed around the idea of like the hammers and the typewriter, like not coming from the same two points at the same time? I never realized that.
[00:41:57] Marcin: yeah. And it’s funny because, and it [00:42:00] was very specific to the, to the way the first typewriters were made, which actually became obsolete 10 years. So within 10 years, QUT was solving a problem that didn’t need solving anymore. Yeah. Uh, that’s why, that’s why it’s really hard to even compare qu in vak because they didn’t exist in the same time span.
They were there to solve very different problems.
[00:42:20] Christina: That, which is very interesting. And, and so, but, but yet, Cordy is endured, which, which I also think is interesting. Right. And, and, and I wonder if it’s because. Sometimes I do wonder if it’s because like Dvorak maybe was trying to solve the wrong problem. Like, like it’s claiming that it’s going to be easier, more efficient and and whatnot.
But, but if it, but if that’s maybe not what, maybe, maybe not really a problem. You know what I mean? Like, like if that’s okay, you, you, you can make more efficient layouts, but, but that cordy works well enough, even though the reason for its genesis doesn’t exist anymore.
[00:42:54] Marcin: there, there’s, uh, there’s this wonderful book by Ericka Aran called In the Land [00:43:00] of Invented Languages that talks about people who, you know, created Esperan or Log Land, is it called, or even Klingon. Klingon had more commercial roots, I suppose, and, and, and there’s this interesting notion. Uh, it’s actually like a surprisingly warm and sort of sad book because it speaks about most of these people just wanted to fix the world.
Like they said, I don’t like the messiness of languages today. I don’t, I, I, I would like them to work a certain way or I would like them to reflect the universe a certain way. Um, but it all came with this sort of naivete of like, oh, if I only solve this thing, people will understand it. And that’s not like the language is being messy.
It’s actually the beauty of languages. And every language gets messy. Like even espresso has shortcuts right now and all of these things because that’s how people use languages. So I think Vorax, like there was a certain naivete that if I only prove you mathematically that my keyboard is better, um, you will use it.
Um, [00:44:00] um, and that there’s also this other thing, of course, uh, the dark side of QU is that Remington, which was the first, you know, big typewriter company. They also had a good legal team and a good sales team, and a good promotion team, and, and a lot of, a lot of the success of query. And unfortunately we cannot decouple them, right?
We, we cannot say like, this was 40% engineering and 30% whatever, but they had a really good ideas of how to sell the typewriters. And that probably didn’t hurt. And maybe if they sucked at it, maybe they would’ve, maybe another layout from 1870s or 1880s would’ve actually observed qu uh, and they were also really good at, um, sending their keyboards abroad.
Uh, which, uh, which explains why QU Z is so close to QU or Aer is so close to qu because it was all done by the same guy who actually didn’t even speak any of those languages. But, but, you know, they were, they just moved the keys enough, just again, so their keyboards wouldn’t clash, you know, in the same way they had to solve it for query [00:45:00] for English.
[00:45:01] Brett: I, uh, Christina, just, just fyi, your video has frozen for me, but in like a, a perfect pose, like you look, you look curious and intrigued, um, and like it’s a nice, like semi profile. You look great.
[00:45:19] Christina: Okay. You, you, you should take a, you, you should take a screenshot of that, um, uh, because I’m gonna turn it, I’m gonna turn it off and turn it on again and see if that fixes it. But take a screenshot first, cuz I wanna see how ridiculous I look.
[00:45:30] Brett: Done. You don’t look ridiculous. You look fan fucking fantastic.
[00:45:34] Christina: Yeah, I don’t believe you. Am I back to you now?
[00:45:37] Brett: no, no. It, it went off and you came back looking exactly as good.
[00:45:43] Marcin: Oh wow.
[00:45:45] Christina: That is
[00:45:45] Marcin: For the record, I see Christina moving, so I’m no contact here. It’s just you.
[00:45:51] Let’s have a Playdate
[00:45:51] Brett: Um, so speaking of arcade games, oh, there, Christine, I can see you moving now. Um, uh, you guys, you guys [00:46:00] both have the play date, which has come up on our show before.
Um, I, I am outside of this, uh, I, I observed the release of the play date and have not heard much about it since. So I’m curious to hear you guys talk a little bit about your play dates.
[00:46:19] Christina: Yeah. Uh, Martian, would you like to start?
[00:46:23] Marcin: Uh, yeah. Yeah. I, I, um, I, you know, I’m, I’m a. Where do I start? I think, you know, I’m a big fan of panic, uh, and have been just, uh, even outside of like specific things that they do, just the way they do things, um, uh, you know, sort of like creators before creations. Um, but yeah, . But what’s really interesting for me, and, and I think that actually came up with the book as well and, and, and a lot of other sort of, I’ve always been into computing history, um, and there’s this idea of like, how do you approach nostalgia?
Um, because there are good ways and bad [00:47:00] ways, right? Like nostalgia is supposed to kind of help you. And, and it it, it’s there to, to soften our lives in general. But, you know, you can sort of weaponize it, um, as, as we’ve seen in some presidential elections. And you can, you can also sort of succumb to nostalgia and be like, well, you know, the only arcade games were in the eighties and nothing after that matters.
And if you like them, you you’re stupid. Um, or something like this. And I think what I really like about Play Date conceptually is how they try to negotiate with nostalgia. Cuz it’s not just like, we’re just gonna rewind the clock 25 years and build this device. It’s actually, we’re, we’re just gonna look at the past and see maybe, maybe some of the simplicity that used to. Coming from the limited technology and then, you know, as the technology progressed, went away, maybe that simplicity was still worth it outside of, you know, but maybe they were just coupled together. And maybe, maybe there’s something nice about, like a simple controlled scheme or a black and white thing.
There’s something that could [00:48:00] help with creativity that maybe something that would help people relate to the sort of beauty and quirkiness or maybe something that would attract strange creators, which I think played at it really well, which is just like a, a lot of those games. Sometimes hard, even call them games, they’re just strange and quirky and weird.
And they would just be like, how do we build a device that sort of optimizes for weirdness? And I think so. So I, I think I’m in awe of the process of play date coming together, maybe more so than the play date itself, which is a beautiful object holding in my head right now. But it’s just like the, the way, the way they talked about what it means to them and, and, and some of the design decisions and some of the, some of the choices they made is just a vision of a device that doesn’t belong in any particular era.
It just sort of picks from different moments in time. And I think that’s something wonderful that as, as computers get older, we should all be doing very carefully of sort of picking like, like I have a keyboard with [00:49:00] modern keyboard, but the kick ups are from the seventies. Because I think that’s my responsibility to do stuff like that.
[00:49:06] Christina: Yeah, no, I totally agree with you. Um, I, um, like you, I love panic and, and I’ve been a fan of their aesthetic for so such a long time. Like I still have, they sold, God, this was so many years ago, but they sold, um, like Atari style, um, game boxes for their software products that you could just like buy. And so it was like, like Transmit and candy bar and um, I
[00:49:30] Marcin: I remember that.
[00:49:30] Christina: for like audio.
So, and I have them somewhere, and they were just so fun and, and, and, and I was not alive during any of the Atari’s run. Like I’m, I’m a Nintendo generation kid, but I love the aesthetic anyway. And so, um, I’ve always loved their whimsy, you know, when they had their, uh, what was the app that they had, um, in the app store, uh, kind of based on their dashboard that the iOS really unfortunately wasn’t, wasn’t prepared to do what it
[00:49:56] Brett: it called dashboard?
[00:49:57] Christina: Something like that. . [00:50:00] Um, but, but, but that was based on, you know, the, the custom, um, like, uh, dashboard that they’d created at at their office that would show, you know, like what, what, what commute times were and, and, and what people’s progress was and certain things. It was, it was great. Um, I love all their experiments.
I love their design philosophy. I love the status quo. There you go. Status sport. I, I, I love their whimsy. I love their design decisions. I love their blogs. I love, you know, uh, cables like obsession with, you know, like, uh, weird snack foods. You know, I’m just, I’m just fan of panic and, and, and I, and I, and I’ve met, you know, um, the, the team a number of times and, and, uh, over the years, like, uh, you know, I’ve been at their offices.
Like, I, you know, I can, I feel like, can call them internet friends of mine. Um, I think the first time I ever met cable, uh, and Steven, like I, it was like meeting superstars to me. Like I think I was more excited by that than. Actual celebrities that I’ve met and interviewed, if I’m being totally honest. So like you, like the, the process of the device is almost, has it definitely mattered.
Way more like [00:51:00] I haven’t played my play date much since I got it. I got all the games and I’ve used it and I have played with the S D K, which is really cool. But when I first used a play date at XO XO 20, 19, I guess it was, I think it was the last exo. Um, there’s a photo that someone took of me using it and, and I, I, um, you know, tweeted, I was like, this is what pure joy looks like.
And, and you just see this huge smile on my face as I’m interacting with, with the crank. And, and I love teenage engineering who obviously had a huge, you know, a, a amount, uh, to, to do with it. And so, yeah, I think that kind of going back to a thread we’ve had here, sort of the humanity and, and the personality and the thoughtfulness that went into the whole thing.
And also I really appreciated and I still appreciate that it is not a device for everyone and they’re not trying to make
[00:51:51] Marcin: Yeah, yeah,
[00:51:52] Christina: I love that. Like I love that because there were so many people who were telling me online and, and because I would talk about a podcast or [00:52:00] saying to person like, why would you ever buy that?
This is, this is so dumb, it’s gonna be sitting a door somewhere. I was like, yeah, probably. But this is the perfect device for someone like, like us, you know, which are like older millennials or Gen Xers who have disposable income and have like a love of like weird nostalgia kind of driven devices. But also frankly, the crank is a really, really good, um, interface.
It’s a really, really good interface for, for controlling the games. Like it’s actually really interesting and, and, and I, and I think about that a lot. Like you’re a designer. I’m not a designer, but I’m a designer. Appreciator Brett is, is, is, um, is is a designer, but I’m, I’m somebody who loves, like I wish I could, I wish I had the artistic abilities cuz I, I love design and art so much.
And, and I think about like the, the thought process that goes into that and like thinking about, okay, how can we make this crank more than just a gimmick? And actually now how are you going to build a game that is going to use that as, um, you know, a, a, [00:53:00] a UX mechanism, but also as like a mechanical, you know, control of, of, of getting through, you know, the game.
Like, I think that’s so.
[00:53:08] Marcin: Yeah. I mean, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, I’m glad you used the word joyful. Like it, it definitely like awakened a lot of like joy in me and, and, but also just sort of this. It reminds, it reminded me of like, oh, like there’s a lot of places that still deserve creativity. Like, we’re not done with any of these things.
Right? Like, like this, this, this, this is a unique thing in a space that’s filled with things like this already. Right? And, and, and, and it pos that like maybe in every space that’s already filled with things, there’s still room for other things that are unique. And, and, and I also like that. Yeah. The crank is like, I’ve always believed like there’s nothing wrong with a good gimmick.
You just have to like cook. You know? Like you just have to run with it and use it well, and I think people love gimmicks. It’s like, there’s nothing wrong with like using the word gimmick because they [00:54:00] actually like elevated it. Right. And, and it’s funny. Oh my God. You, when you started talking about panning, I was just immediately like, remember the thing where they, they, they had this app, you can control their, their sign on their building,
[00:54:11] Christina: Yes,
[00:54:11] Marcin: of the sign, or, uh, Buggy Stro, the musical that, that from 20 years ago or 50 years ago, like cable just like, made this musical about the bugs in the game Stro.
And so I, I just, you know, in, in part of like loving play date is just like, I just wanna support creators that do things like this and that, that, that, that bring this joy to other people and, and who remind us that like, yeah, we can, we can, like, there’s so much more room for gravity everywhere. Uh, and even in, as you said, like places where some people might scoff and say like, well, this is not gonna be the next Ds, you know, or the next switch or whatever.
[00:54:54] Christina: like, it doesn’t wanna be, you know, like they weren’t trying to do that. They were wanting to build something cool for them. I think they were a little [00:55:00] bit taken aback. Um, I mean, they’ve written as much, but I think even talking to them, um, when, when I was playing with the prototype and talking to some of the team members, Who worked on it.
Like, I think that they were taken aback by the initial interest and, and obviously, you know, like, uh, how many people wanted to order and how they had to, you know, which created a bunch of logistical problems, which 2020 didn’t help with. But
[00:55:20] Marcin: Oh, I remember that. Yeah.
[00:55:22] Christina: but even without that, I think that they would’ve suffered a, a little bit just because, like, this was supposed to be kinda like a small batch thing that did have wider
[00:55:29] Marcin: Yeah.
[00:55:30] Christina: And, and, but, but that’s an interesting thing too, I think kind of relates to keyboards a little bit, which is you have this thing that is maybe specific specified at a niche, right? And then it becomes more broadly adopted and then the expectations change. And, but, but what you were doing, like your initial intent doesn’t,
[00:55:51] Marcin: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s both keyboards or even, um, we were talking earlier about my [00:56:00] Kickstarter and you know, once, once, and I imagine it’s pretty universal. Like I, I imagine that once your Kickstarter gets like to a certain level, you start seeing all of this spam, Hey, we can give you like 10,000 more people.
Probably not 10,000, but like, you know, a thousand more people or 500 more people looking at this. And I’m like, I don’t know if I want to, you know, like I, I, at some point I don’t, I don’t want, like, I don’t wanna lose this sort of strangeness of this thing I’m creating, uh, or this, uh, you know, this, this, this.
I don’t wanna soften the quirkiness necessarily. Right. Or I don’t wanna, like, I don’t wanna, I, I don’t want mass appeal because I think that’s covered. Like there I industries that do that really well. I, I, I, I, I want to rather find somebody, like, I wanna find everybody who love this thing that created rather than more people who might like never care for it, you know?
[00:56:53] Christina: Yeah. Yeah. I was kind of curious about that, like to talk maybe a little bit more about it, and I know we’re getting close on time, but I just wanted to kind of know more about like your [00:57:00] experience. with the Kickstarter, cuz I, I have to imagine it’s similar with the play date. Like you were hoping it would be successful.
Now is, is it still the third most, um, um, uh, back book? Or is it the second most at this point?
[00:57:13] Marcin: It’s gonna, it’s close to being like the second most funded non-fiction book in kickstart’s history, which as I say those words, I don’t even know what they mean to me.
[00:57:25] Christina: right? No, but, but, but that, that has to feel incredible. But that also has to feel like, again, I, I wonder like you’ve put all this time into this, you built it with a certain thing. At the beginning you were even talking about how like you get people who were, you know, kind of mans trying to mansplain keyboards to you, which is what’s gonna happen when something gets out of the bubble that you created in and goes more broad.
Um, but, but, but I wonder like, I guess, I guess just like how, how you’re kind of like dealing with that, because I appreciate that you’re still trying to keep it what it is. I’ve covered over the years, especially when I was a journalist, so many failed [00:58:00] Kickstarter campaigns where people couldn’t fulfill what happened because it blew up and it was way more successful than they expected.
And then they add on these goals and they’re like, oh, well now we’re gonna do this and this and this and this and, and it, and it, and it takes away from, you know, because people in the process get excited about what the possibility of this thing could be rather than what the inventor’s intent was. And, and I, and I wonder, I guess about like, how, how, how do you balance that, like, you know, staying, I guess, kind of true to what your book is?
Because at this point, in addition to having spammers coming at you and like, we can get you this much more, I would also imagine like, ha, have you had, uh, more traditional publishers. come at you, because I would think that, that you would, right? Like, I would think that they would be like, Hey, maybe you won’t be printed the same way that you’re doing it, but this clearly has an audience.
Do you want, you know, partner and, and I’m just curious like how, how you balance keeping what it is while at the same time you’ve got this runaway success.
[00:58:53] Marcin: Yeah. So I, I think what was important for me and what I spend a lot of time is thinking about, like, what do I want this book to be [00:59:00] to a point that I actually have it written down. Like many years ago I was like, here are my goals for the book. And at no point, you know, there’s, there was a certain, like, number of people that I wanted to have this book, which the campaign now succeeded.
And, and that was the numeric goal. Um, and of course, like I didn’t wanna lose money on the book because that opens like a whole universe of travel. Um, but other than that I just had like, you know, I wanna be proud of how the book feels. Like I want to do justice to the people who I’m interviewing. I want not to lose the quirkiness.
And so, um, there, there were a bunch of those kind of things that I kept looking at over and over again and talking to people. And even the whole process of, I originally wanted this book to be traditionally publish. because that’s kinda how I grew up and, and, and, and what felt like quote unquote, the right way to do it.
And, and it took me like a year to via conversations with many, many people to realize I actually don’t want this self publish. Uh, [01:00:00] sorry, I don’t want to, I wanna self-publish this and it’s not gonna be me being a loser if I do that. , like, so publishing is like a much more interesting space right now. And, and, and, and, and so I, I think I just had a lot of time to think about what I want this and the sort of quote unquote success criteria and whatnot.
And that was really helpful in hopefully not losing the debt right now. Not sort of chasing the ball of like, oh, what if I was the number one Kickstarter book of all time? Which, that’s actually not possible. The second credit, it, the number is just wild, but it’s like 46 million, right? It’s just like, it’s like out, it’s, it’s, it’s really
[01:00:41] Christina: It’s not gonna happen, right?
[01:00:42] Marcin: Yeah, but, but you know, the sort of, yeah, exactly. Like chasing this sort of like a, a, a certain deal with a publisher says like, oh, what if, what if this is a, you know, a, a a a, an airport bookstore kind of a book? I was like, no, no, no. It’s not. Like, maybe there is, maybe, maybe, maybe I won’t get tired with keyboards and I [01:01:00] will actually write another one.
It’s a very different audience and a very different process, which could be interesting. But, but it, so I think for me was just, just trying to think and be honest with myself and write down the goals for this project for me. Um, and then not lose track of, of, and, and I’m, I’m lucky enough to be surrounded by people who are helping me with this project, like my editor, um, who also get it, who also understand what I’m after and who, who are helping me sort of, you know, navigate those spaces.
Um, and, and I think, and, and giving me candid feedback. Sometimes, you know, Hey, you, you may be getting distracted here, or, uh, or vice versa, saying like, you know what, like, For the next marketing thing, just do kind of put what you wanna do. Like do do something that and you, you enjoy rather than, you know, something that you have to do.
So, so navigating that, uh, that’s, that’s been like very important to me.
[01:01:59] Brett: All right.
[01:01:59] Christina: think [01:02:00] that’s,
[01:02:01] Grapptitude
[01:02:01] Brett: Should we, uh, should we do a rapid fire gratitude before we close out?
[01:02:06] Christina: Yeah, I would love that.
[01:02:08] Brett: Do you have one ready, Christina? Or do you wanna wait while we go? Okay, Christina, you get to, you get to kick it off just like the mental health corner.
[01:02:16] Christina: Okay, so my pick is an app called Sloth, and this is one that I actually, it’s been around for a while, but I just discovered it on Hacker News yesterday. And it is, um, basically a Mac app that shows you a gooey to show you all the open ports and data things that are happening. On your system. So it’s really interesting.
Um, and this is something that I don’t think that I would probably use very often, but I’m playing with it and it’s interesting just to see like, I guess if you’re trying to, to figure out, like, cuz it shows you like all the open files, directories, sockets, the pipes that are, that are in use and, and then the, the, the running processes.
So it’s basically just a gooey for, um, uh, is off. Um, or, or I, I, or maybe it’s [01:03:00] Ellis off. I don’t know. I, I don’t know the Unix command cuz I’ve never used this command Ellis off. Yeah. I’ve never used this command. And so, um, but, but it’s, it’s in like a usable way. And I saw this on Hacker News yesterday that a new version was released.
It’s available for both, um, apple, silicon and um, uh, Intel. And I was like, oh, this is actually a really interesting way to like look at all the different things that are happening on my Mac at one time. And I could see this as actually being really useful for figuring out like, If something is broken or, or what it’s doing.
And also, you know, maybe like what apps are spying on you. Um, although, um, little, uh, little snitch would be, uh, uh, would, would be way better than that. But, um, I don’t know. It, it doesn’t have the best design or anything. Uh, it’s, it’s a pure utility app, but I saw this and I, I only play with it a little bit and I really like it and I’m, I’m like not mad at it.
It also goes all the way back to Mac Os 10.8, so like
[01:03:55] Brett: I, I, I did see this come up on Hacker News. Um, [01:04:00] the, it’s from, uh, I don’t know how to Sine Bjorn, um, Bjorn Spine. Uh, the same guy who made platypus the, the, the Mac app that can turn a shell script into a, an application bundle. Um, simple idea, very handy tool. Uh, back like I started, yeah, I’ve used platypus.
Oh, Jesus. 20 years, 15 years. Um, yeah, that’s old school. So it’s, I, I, I went to his software page. He has a whole bunch of apps I’ve never used, but Sloth is, sloth is the second one on his software page. So, yeah, that looks cool. Uh, he, he describes it as basically a friendly, exploratory, gooey for L S O F, which all the developers will know what that means, and everyone else will be like, what,
[01:04:53] Christina: Well, and I, and I’m, I’m a developer and I’ve never used it, like, you know, but I’m not like a hardcore or anything, but like, I’ve literally, I don’t think I’ve ever used that.
[01:04:59] Brett: I [01:05:00] have used L S O F in when I’ve had questions about . I don’t even remember what the last time it came up was. I’ve never voluntarily used L S O F, but I have been instructed to, in the process of solving other problem, Run L S O F to determine what port something was using or what was using, what was accessing a port or a file or a socket.
And yeah, like it’s not, it’s not a regular part of my repertoire. I could definitely use a gooey, so That’s awesome. Um, do you, do you want to go next?
[01:05:41] Marcin: Sure. Um, my choice is, um, ivory. Uh, I like, like many people, I think I, I found Masteron to be a great alternative to, to, you know, the, the artist formerly known as Twitter. And, uh, and I very is I think the [01:06:00] first app for Maan that I actually really enjoy using. I, I struggle with some of the other ones. Um, my designer, maybe I just need something that’s a little bit more polished, that’s a little bit more aesthetically pleasing or, um, and, and, and Iry is, is the first step that I was just like, oh, this is, uh, you know, this is like a great alternative to, uh, to all the other ones.
But also I, I really like, because it’s sort of similar to, to what we talked about, uh, with Play Date, which is, it’s kind of quirky. It’s a little weird. It has personality, uh, uh, it’s, it’s made some choices that I as a designer wouldn’t maybe make, but. and maybe some I actually disagree with, but also they’re like really interesting choices and it’s really fun.
It, you know, it’s, it, it, it, it again sort of made me feel like, oh, we are not done with those things. You know, there’s some, some creative choices we could make here, or some, some weird stuff. Not just like in, in a space of like a social media, you know, [01:07:00] consumption up, but just apps in general. Like, like for example, I forgot how long it’s been since the app allowed me to choose like an accent color, which I immediately orange.
It’s gonna be orange. Oh, I can change the icon to be orange too. It’s so simple. But I think like, you know, iOS and macro is sort of locked a lot of this down because, you know, design and I’m speaking as a designer, I, I do that too. Um, but, you know, just, just the little moments of customization just made me so excited to, you know, it’s like the, it’s the only, let me see.
It’s the only yellow icon I have on my home screen, which it’s like a funny thing to say, but my home screen is very, very grateful for that. So, I don’t know. Ivory And it’s done by tap bots, right?
[01:07:46] Brett: Yeah, same people who made one of our favorite apps, tweet bot, um, and we talked about it on a recent show. They, they have a, a rest in peace page for tweet bot with, uh, with an [01:08:00] elephant looking at it, uh, which is a reference to ivory, which is now out for, uh, it’s in beta. Uh, I did, I did I I have it through test flight.
I haven’t actually, I’m loading it up right now just to see what’s up. But, um, yeah, I’m a huge fan of tweetbot. I have a, I have a lot of faith that I’m gonna love ivory.
[01:08:23] Christina: Yeah. Yeah,
[01:08:24] Marcin: I’ve never used Sweet Bot, so I
[01:08:26] Christina: oh, that’s so funny.
[01:08:28] Marcin: out. Maybe I’ve been missing out for like 15 years. . But you know, maybe better late than.
[01:08:33] Christina: Totally. Totally. Yeah. No, I’ve been, I’ve been using it since, um, uh, I missed out on the beta for iOS. But, um, uh, Paul was nice enough to invite me into the, the mac beta early, and, um, and they just recently changed, um, uh, that test flight. Um, they separated the two. And so, um, I’m, I’m back in that one as well, and it’s really good.
It’s really, really good. Um, I, uh, it’s for me and I, I’ve talked about this I think before. [01:09:00] What’s totally changed, my Macon experience has been getting good apps and, and Ivory is definitely one of them. One of the fun things is also for the iOS app, and, uh, this I think is really, really cute, is that you can customize the icon and one of the icons is basically the r i p tweet bot icon.
So if you wanted the app icon to look, you know, like a, like, like, still, still have kind of the, the, the tweet bot with the halo on it. Like that’s, that’s one of their options, which I think is really cute. But, but, but, but it is, to me, I don’t know, it’s just amazing how much of a difference good tools make for this, for this platform.
I still have some issues with Macedon, but it, it, for me, like, it’s just a completely different experience. Um, having things like elk.zone and ice cubes and um, uh, ivory being, I think the most polished, just like, has fundamentally changed my experience with the service, whereas the, the apps that existed before, um, that, and, and the main website, [01:10:00] like, I’m not trying to criticize people who are putting labor love into things, but just it’s not there , you know, it’s just, it’s not the sort of thing that I can come back to, especially for people like us who really respect the, the thoughtful design of things.
[01:10:15] Marcin: Yeah. It, it reminds me a little bit, and this is at the risk of maybe angering a lot of people, but there was this recent debate I think Gruber wrote about, um, um, Android and iOS, sort of the quality of design. And there’s something about it that I think the, the conversation there were more people adding to that conversation.
I think they captured something. It’s like, yeah, there’s, there’s intangible things that matter and, and it’s hard sometimes to understand for people who don’t understand design or never maybe talk to a designer, but those it up and, and like, this is exactly right, Christina, for me, I’ve already like crossed the threshold, which is just like, oh.
This is enjoyable. This, this wasn’t optional. The, the, the, there needs to be a center level of care and attention polish and, and [01:11:00] quality to apps. And maybe we all calibrated differently, but for me, I already crossed the trash car and I started just feeling like, oh, the muston experience is really fun. I, I thought, I thought it couldn’t be, but it was really the app and
[01:11:14] Brett: I have, I have finally hit like a, a critical mass with my Macedon follower versus following and, and am getting, uh, an amount of feedback to a toot that makes it feel inter. Active instead of just shouting into a void. Um, and it feels like there’s a community there. And my following on Macedon is way smaller than my one on Twitter.
Uh, but they are as interactive and I have enjoyed it. I use Tut on iOS. It’s just toot with an exclamation point. Um, it’s been pretty good. I would love to get on the ivory iOS beta, but I did [01:12:00] not catch that one.
[01:12:02] Christina: Um, uh, TM DM Paul and um, and c cuz I’m sure that they have people who go in and off of the, of the things. It’s also available to buy now, so you can just like, you
[01:12:11] Brett: Oh, is it? I’ll buy it. I’ll
[01:12:13] Christina: yeah. It’s, yeah, it’s, yeah, it’s in the app store. It’s, it’s in the app store. The, the Mac version is not in the app store yet.
It’s in Alpha, but um,
[01:12:20] Brett: the Mac version. I’m
[01:12:21] Christina: oh yeah, no, yeah, yeah. You can just buy it. What is what? Okay. I thought I was following you on mask on. I don’t know if I am. What is your mast on user?
[01:12:28] Brett: Oh man, my Macedon username is tt scoff as usual@noack.ezdns.ca.
[01:12:38] Christina: Okay, then I am on, I am following you there. Okay.
[01:12:42] Brett: Yeah, I, I kind wanna switch to a more, uh, notable instance, like, you know, Macedon social or one of the various, but I jumped on, I jumped on Macedon early and, uh, EZ [01:13:00] dns, the fucking libertarians that run it, uh, had a, had a pretty good privacy policy and, and, uh, uh, overall community policy that I agreed with.
And so I jumped on that one and just kind of stuck with it. , libertarians. Um, anyway, so you guys both went. You guys both went gooey with your picks. I, uh, I’m going terminal. Um, I found this new thing called Mick Fly, um, and it is a replacement. So like in, in your terminal, you hit control R and you can reverse search your command history.
Right? Um, I have for a long time used F zf and, uh, I’ve, I’ve set it up so I hit Control R and it pipes my entire history file through F Z F and I can fuzzy search for a previous command. [01:14:00] Mc fly basically offers. A similar fuzzy search, not as fuzzy. You still, like, if you don’t include a space, it won’t recognize the search.
Uh, but it does add, um, directory awareness. So it will prioritize commands that you have run in the current directory when you do the command history search. Uh, which is even if, even if you just hit control art and just use your arrow key to get to a command, you’ve run in that directory, but probably not in the current session.
Um, it works great. It works with Phish, it works with Z Shell, it works with Bash. Um, it, it is, it is an excellent little Control r history replacement,
[01:14:47] Christina: I love this. And I went to add it to my stars and it was already there. So I’ve clearly seen this before. Um, uh, Martian, uh, for some background, my GitHub stars is the greatest. Like, like I always tell people, [01:15:00] don’t follow me for my code cuz my code is worth worthless. My stars are freaking great. I find the best stuff.
So I search through my stars all the time, but I find little gyms and then I forget about it. But I had McFly there and, um, I, I, so clearly I looked at it at one point. I might have used it once, but I don’t have it installed. I’m installing it now. Um, but I, I love this.
[01:15:21] Brett: For anyone who doesn’t already know, if you go to Overtired pod.com, I wrote a WordPress plugin just to display Christina’s starred repositories on the website. So you scroll down to the bottom, and in the footer of any page you can find Christina’s starred repositories, which is, as she said, a fantastic collection of the latest and greatest in in open source.
[01:15:48] Christina: Yeah, and I also, I also have, sorry, go. No, go on.
[01:15:52] Marcin: Is McFly a reference to Back to the
[01:15:56] Brett: Back to the future, I have to assume.
[01:15:58] Christina: I have to assume
[01:15:59] Brett: it’s a hi. [01:16:00] History. History. Search back to the future. Yeah, it makes sense.
[01:16:05] Christina: The only thing I was gonna say is that in my Stars collection, so in addition to having all the stars, we also have a feature called Lists that you can create in, in GitHub. And I have one called MAs Dawn Goodness, which I’ve been keeping relatively up to date, which is like front-end clients, guides, tools, and other stuff related to Mastodon.
And then I have one called Play Date stuff, which is cool things for the play date. So that is, um, both of those are, uh, are available, um, a as well as, as the other things that I find. So just wanted to point that out there. Um, I’m, I’m trying to curate, um, my massive list of, of stars into better organized lists for certain purposes.
And, uh, I happen to do that
[01:16:44] Brett: know you could have lists. That’s awesome.
[01:16:47] Christina: I know we don’t talk about it enough because I don’t think, I think that I’m probably one of the biggest power users of Stars working at GitHub, and I don’t even work on the Stars Project
[01:16:59] Brett: I also, [01:17:00] I also just started using GitHub co-pilot. Uh, finally, finally got around to testing it out. And it turns out because of my open source contributions, like I’m at, I, I have free access to it, so I gotta, I gotta, I gotta get, I gotta get more used to, they have a feature called brushes, brush co-pilot, like you can, like give it a function and, and tell it to just fix any bugs in it, and it just figures out what bug is
Interesting. All right. Well, Marchin, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure.
[01:17:37] Marcin: Thank you so much for having me.
[01:17:39] Christina: It was so great. I’m so glad you could come on and, and you’re like, I think this book is perfect for, uh, our audience of people who are into this sort of thing. Um, I, I pre-ordered it, uh, the book immediately and what was so funny, what was so funny was that you and I, we met in a completely unrelated way and I saw some tweets about the book when it [01:18:00] was kind of coming out and I was like, wait a minute.
I know him. Like, it was so funny because, because, uh, last year, uh, Marchin and I spent. More than an hour talking about hacker, uh, sneakers and, and, uh, just, just in dms. And we just had a fantastic conversation. It was like one of like the highlights of like my afternoon, uh, like, just like a random Sunday afternoon last year.
And, and, and I, it was so lovely. It was like one of those like classic, like good internet experiences where you just connect with a stranger over something. And then I, I saw the book and I was like, oh my God. And Glen edited it and, and it looks like this is completely like my shit. I was like, I’m so excited.
I immediately told Brett and Jeff, and I’m so sad Jeff couldn’t be here. I was like, no, we have to have him on because this is completely like in the pocket of everything that our audience cares about.
[01:18:47] Brett: Yep. Yep. All right. So everyone check out, shift happens.site. Uh, you can even see 3D renderings of the book and get an idea what you are, um, uh, [01:19:00] kickstarting and it looks amazing. I also am, uh, I’m on for a pre-order. Very much looking forward to it. Um, and in the meantime, get some sleep.
[01:19:12] Christina: Get some sleep.
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