Channarong Kitinartintranee is the Senior Financial Advisor of KBank Private Banking Group. He joined Kasikornbank in 2018 with a key focus in Thai economics and equities. Before that, he worked as a mutual fund and institutional private fund portfolio manager at Krung Thai Asset Management with more than 10 billion baht focusing on mid-scale cap stocks. Channarong holds an MSc Finance from Thammasat University and has been a Chartered Financial Analyst (CFA) since 2012.
Hear from Channarong as he shares his worst investment story. Know why it is essential always to remember the basics and fundamentals of investing. Learn why we should not let past success make us overconfident.
“Don't forget the basic investment things, the valuation, the fundamental.”
- Channarong Kitinartintranee
01:07 – Andrew gives a summary of our guest’s working experience
03:04 – Channarong tells how the mid to small cap stocks he invested when he started in Krung Thai Asset Management performed very well at the start but turned out his worst investment
09:44 – Revealing the valuable lessons he got in his investment loss
11:40 – Andrew shares his takeaways in this story
15:17 – Additional important lesson from Channarong
16:48 – Actionable advice to avoid suffering the same fate: “Don't let past success makes you overconfident because you will end up failing. Challenge your past successes. Don't trust them.”
16:57 – Parting words from our guest: “Keep investing. If you don't invest, you'll never get the compounding effect of having your money in the market.”
Lesson 1: “Gaining and losing in the investment in the market is a physical thing.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 2: “It's important to discuss the concept of how a portfolio is exposed. The first exposure I'll call global drivers, and global drivers are things like oil price. The second thing is the concept of exposure to factors. The most common factors are value and momentum and also, size exposure. I wouldn't necessarily call it a factor, but I'd call it a size exposure because you can implement a factor strategy in a mid-cap space.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 3: “If you're investing in a certain type of exposure, whether that's to size to global factors or other factors such as valuation and momentum, remember those factors. The reason why factor investing can be very difficult is it sometimes you could even create a fund or a strategy around a factor that had worked and then it may not work for the next five years. That doesn't mean that factor doesn't work or that exposure doesn't work such as a small cap or mid-cap stocks. It just means that it's out of favor. When you build only a narrow factor exposure, try to understand when that factor will be in and out of favor. And that is a very, very hard thing to do, but that's the message that you have to communicate when you're doing that type of fund.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 4: “What I took away from what you've talked about is the concept of liquidity. And particularly because your story is about mid and smaller stocks, these stocks tend to have a higher risk of not being able to be liquid when you need to sell them at a reasonable price you can't. And that's the concept of illiquidity.”– Andrew Stotz
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Tahnoon Pasha grew up in the United Kingdom and the United Arab Emirates. He has a Bachelor of Business Administration and an M.B.A. from the University of Karachi, Pakistan. He is a chartered financial analyst and has been a member of the CFA Institute since 1995. He is based in Spencer Stuart’s Singapore office and is a member of the firm’s Financial Services Practice. Before Spencer Stuart, Tahnoon was the co-founder and the chief executive officer of Cynopsis Solutions. He also served at Aviva Investors as CEO of both the Asia Pacific regional hub in Singapore and the equity and fixed income businesses in the region. And for some years, Tahnoon worked as head of regional equity investments for MFC Global Investment Management (Asia).
With nearly three decades of experience in the investment management industry, Tahnoon specializes in financial services searches, working with a range of clients in the asset management, insurance and sovereign wealth sectors in Southeast Asia.
Get to know Tahnoon as he unveils what he considered his worst investment ever. Understand why it is very crucial to be cautious about your level of conviction to a particular sector or trade, and why it is very crucial to work with the right team that you can trust and will speak truth to you and that will help you become a better investor.
“I think the mistake was the level of conviction I invested in that particular trade.”
- Tahnoon Pasha
00:45 – Summary of our guest’s educational and professional backgrounds
03:19 – Tahnoon narrates why he considers structural underweight in his portfolio his worst investment and the two important circumstances leading to it
05:54 – Explaining why it is hard to model the levels of return and the modeling perspective missed
10:25 – Summing up the remarkable lessons learned from his experience
12:00 – Andrew shares his takeaways
16:44 – One actionable advice from Tahnoon: “Surround yourself with smart people. If you've got people around that you can trust and who will speak truth to you, you're going to be a much, much better investor. Don't try and do it alone.”
18:03 – Parting words from our guest
Lesson 1: “First was that I misread the boom itself. The second was that I misread the effectiveness of the change in production models that had that boom based on outsourcing and contractual arrangements rather than on direct consolidated, centralized manufacturing.”– Tahnoon Pasha
Lesson 2: “What's interesting about valuation is nobody knows what the value is until it arrives. So, we're left making assumptions in models.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 3: “There are cases when the assumptions that seem to be traditional and realistic get blown out of the water, and it's not so much that the model is flawed. It's just that if you force yourself to operate only within that model, you may force yourself to make assumptions. That just may not be the case in a unique situation of an exploding industry.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 4: “It turns out, the auto industry is not a good model for technology. It didn't have the same kind of cost downs regarding the iterations and obviously, the time between generations in the auto industry was much longer and slower than we saw in technology. What we really should have thought was about how the industry was playing out in and of itself and by trying to use proxies that were poor matches for the for the industry. We lead ourselves wrong.”– Tahnoon Pasha
Lesson 5: “Without the right assumptions, it's hard to come out with the right result. And it's not always the structure that's to blame.”– Andrew Stotz
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Nicolas Rabener is the founder of FactorResearch, which provides quantitative solutions for factor investing. Previously he created Jackdaw Capital; an award-winning quantitative investment manager focused on equity market neutral strategies. Before that, Nicolas worked at Government of Singapore Investment Corporation (GIC) in London focused on real estate investments across the capital structure. He started his career working in investment banking at Citigroup in London and New York. Nicolas holds a Master of Finance from HHL Leipzig Graduate School of Management, is a CAIA charter holder and enjoys endurance sports like 100km Ultramarathon, Mont Blanc, and Mount Kilimanjaro.
Listen as Nicolas will uncover the worst investment experience in his real estate venture. Learn why it is important to avoid complexity in your investments.
“I would urge most people to dramatically reduce your portfolios from a complexity perspective, especially on the retail side.”
- Nicolas Rabener
00:41 – Andrew introduces our guest with his educational and working experiences
02:27 – Nicolas reveals what made him become an investor
04:32 – Telling how he evolved in his job investing in real estate stocks
06:28 – How persistence in doing marathons relates to investing
08:32 – Sharing his first investment loss in his career when overseeing the real estate fund of Jackdaw Capital involving two companies managing prisons on behalf of US government
16:48 – Andrew mentions his takeaways from this story
18:32 – Nicolas gives a piece of actionable advice to our listeners
20:44 – Andrew wraps up the show and emphasizes three important things: create, grow and protect your wealth
Lesson 1: “Sometimes logic isn't what happens in the stock market. Sometimes people overreact, or they may not think fully and completely that only 10% would potentially be at risk.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 2: “Expect the unexpected, because, from a real estate perspective, this is an asset-backed business. So, I guess the learning curve is that no matter how defensive in what you can expect, sometimes you do get punched in the face.”– Nicolas Rabener
Lesson 3: “Avoid the complexity because complexity on the investment side is often the enemy.”– Nicolas Rabener
Lesson 4: “We generally create wealth from a business. If you go into the stock market thinking you’re going to create your wealth; you're probably going to lose. However, the stock market is good for growing your wealth. In protecting your wealth, for investors out there, some of the academic research I did showed that in Asia you need about ten stocks to diversify away.”– Andrew Stotz
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Bill Winterberg is the founder of FPPad, a technology publication and business consulting firm to financial services organizations. Bill produced the FPPad Fintech Flash Briefing and was the host of FPPad Bits and Bytes, video broadcast and email newsletter covering technology news and information for financial professionals. He provided technology commentaries for the Journal of Financial Planning and was the monthly technology columnist for Morningstar Advisor. InvestmentNews recognized Bill as a 40 Under 40 Honoree for his influence in the industry, and he was named to the 2013 IA 25 list of the most influential people in the profession. Before entering financial services, Bill was a software engineer for Hewlett Packard and LeapFrog Toys. On a personal note, he lives in Atlanta, GA with his wife and nine-year-old son.
Listen to Bill as he shares his worst investment ever story purchasing a manufactured home that he and his wife bought out of a loan, the events that made them decide to sell the property, the tedious selling process they've experienced, and the ballooning interest loans that they had to settle while trying to let go of the property. Don’t miss out this truly relevant story of decision making and learn from the consequences that Bill made.
“It doesn't even necessarily need to be whether or not this investment has gone bad or is still good, but some or many times, circumstances happen in your life that you cannot predict.”
– Bill Winterberg
01:23 – Bill’s personal and professional experience
05:14 – Bill shares how he purchased a home in San Francisco and how it ended up as a bad investment after a life-changing situation
18:21 – Lessons learned by our guest
20:36 – Andrew shares his three takeaways from this story: knowledge in your investment, criticality in timing, and the concept of inches and seconds
23:24 – Highlighting the compounding effect of money
26:21 – Andrew wraps up the show with remarkable teachings from the book “Your Money or Your Life”
27:41 – Encouraging last words from Bill: “Take what you learned from our discussion today and apply it not just to an anecdotal story like what you just heard, but apply it to your opportunities today and your opportunities in the future.”
Lesson 1: “Try your best not to underestimate the value of flexibility, and liquidity is important in there too.”– Bill Winterberg
Lesson 2: “We were not wise to the fact that there was this language in the location of the house that restricted that flexibility. It took us two years to sell. It's that liquidity and not having any offers to buy for two years.”– Bill Winterberg
Lesson 3: “The real benefits of compounding don't come to us until 20 or 30 years later.” – Andrew Stotz
Lesson 3: “A common thing that people say (in investing in the stock market) is to make mistakes while you're young because you can recover from them. But what I say, in the world of finance don't make your mistakes when you're young because the compounding impact of those financial mistakes is enormous.” – Andrew Stotz
Lesson 4: “That book (Your Money or Your Life) taught me that, ultimately, is when we're spending, we're spending our energy and what I learned from that book is to live deeply below your means. And I believe that that challenged me throughout my whole life to see if I could live deeply below my means.” – Andrew Stotz
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Ralph Woodcock is a Partner with St. James’s Place and based in Shenzhen, China. Ralph is an ACIS member of the Chartered Institute for Securities Investment (CISI) and has worked in the offshore financial services industry for over five years. He is very passionate about delivering tailored and holistic solutions to his clients and committed to building long-term relationships by providing a source of trusted advice dependent on their financial needs. Because of this, Ralph is also an active member of the expatriate community in China. Ralph’s focus is on ensuring his clients receive the best help possible providing expertise with the design and implementation of customized investment solutions. These goals can vary from wealth management, retirement planning, education planning or specialized insurance needs. Ralph believes that investing doesn’t need to be complicated and it’s up to St. James’s Place to make it simple and transparent.
Outside of work Ralph likes to spend time with his family and explore the historical landmarks throughout China and visit their many hidden treasures. Originally from England, Ralph also enjoys following the Premier League and Formula 1 Racing.
In this episode, Ralph shares his bitcoin investment story, the due diligence challenges involved in his venture, his sentiments about his losses, the preventive measures he should have made and the lessons he learned from the experience. Catch this very relevant story and determine why you should not follow the crowd into the bitcoin disaster.
“Make sure we understand the assets we're investing in and how something that looks so good can fall over. And then, we regret that.”
– Ralph Woodcock
03:07 – Ralph recalls how his bitcoin investment in 2007
04:44 – Cryptocurrencies and ICOs: challenges in its the due diligence
05:51 – Ralph’s sentiments in his losses, the preventive measures he should have made
07:07 – The lessons our guest learned from this investment
08:03 – Andrew sums up his takeaways
10:45 – One great advice from Ralph: “Just sit down with a professional, whatever you want to say, whether you agree with them.”
Lesson 1: “In the case of cryptocurrencies, it's tough to do their research because there's very little to grab onto and you could.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 2: “The lesson I learned from it is not to pick my asset class.”– Ralph Woodcock
Lesson 3: “I'm talking to a lot of people that have invested in cryptocurrencies, and my conclusion is many of them have lost a lot of money. And the first thing is that it tends to be that different in your case, but in a lot of cases it's people that know nothing about investing at all and therefore, they end up going in really aggressive.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 4: “One of many different risk management tools that we have is to move into something in a smaller position or move into something slowly.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 5: “The key thing from my perspective is that we have to have volatility over the long run because if something's producing a steady return, it's going to be a very low return.”– Andrew Stotz
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Michael Batnick is the Director of Research at Ritholtz Wealth Management where he reads research publications and stays on top the latest trends in the industry. He is a member of the investment committee and heads up the company’s internal research efforts. He spends most of his time developing and implementing risk management and portfolio strategies for the firm’s clients.
His career began with a sales position at a life insurance company. In May 2018, he published his book, Big Mistakes: The Best Investors and Their Worst Investments. Michael holds a bachelor degree in Economics from the Queens College. He enjoys reading books and spending time with his family in his spare time.
In this episode, Michael shares his golden nuggets of wisdom in investing. Listen as he reveals why keeping a journal and writing down notes helped him change the way he thinks and apply them in his investments. For our new and inexperienced listeners in the stock market, take away those note-worthy tips as well. Get educated and be inspired by his story.
“If you write a journal and you're writing your logic down, you'll find very quickly that the biases (you have) are just as susceptible as anybody else's.”
- Michael Batnick
01:08 – Brief background of our featured guest
03:08 – Michael recounted when he bought Apple stocks in 2013 and why he considers this as his biggest loss
05:36 – Why keeping a diary and writing down notes (journaling) helped him managed his risks
09:34 – Summary of the learnings from his book
12:26 – Sharing what he learned about clients and having financial plans
17:20 – Andrew stresses the value of pre-planning for the worst case
17:49 – Great advice to listeners who are new to the stock market
21:23 – Invitation to read Michael’s book
Lesson 1: “I think one of the reasons that, I smelled the roses fairly early on, was because I was keeping a diary and I think a lot of people don't even have a sense of what their performance is.”– Michael Batnick
Lesson 2: “I think that the difference between successful investors, like super successful investors, done the rest of us is that they can move past it.”– Michael Batnick
Lesson 3: “I'm a big believer in having rules when you're investing, whether that is just a simple checklist of the type of stocks you buy or some risk management system.”– Michael Batnick
Lesson 4: “Just get started, but be careful. Don't risk too much money, lose money because that's the only way that you're going to learn them. And believe me, you will lose money, but keep it reasonable. Keep it small. Don't put yourself in a position where you're overextending yourself, but I don't think that anybody could tell you how to invest. Nobody could say, don't buy active mutual funds. Don't buy index funds. They're boring. Don't do this. Don't do that. You have to figure it out on your own. And some people never get there.”– Michael Batnick
Lesson 5: “The only way to learn what style of investing matches your personality is to invest. And nobody could tell you what it feels like to lose money. So, you have to experience that on your own.”– Michael Batnick
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Olan Suthivej is currently the VP of Thailand Investment Banking Capital Market (IBCM) at Credit Suisse based in Bangkok. He joined Credit Suisse in 2014 and has over 12 years of extensive investment banking experience in equity, equity-linked, debt financing, and MA advisory transactions. Before joining Credit Suisse, Olan was an Associate Director in the Investment Banking department at UBS Securities Thailand and was responsible for client coverage and origination. Before relocating back to Bangkok, he worked in the Fixed Income Currencies Commodities (FICC) at UBS Hong Kong and was responsible for sales and distributions of financial products (e.g., bonds, derivatives, commodities) to Thai clients. He started his career in investment banking as an Analyst at Phatra Securities based in Bangkok.
He graduated from the University of California, Santa Barbara with Bachelor of Arts degree in Business Economics with an emphasis in Accounting and holds an MBA from Sasin Graduate Institute of Business Administration. He is very happily married with two wonderful children.
Get to know Olan as he unveils his worst investment ever story. Discover how he lost 20% of his portfolio by listening to stock tips. Learn why it is crucial for an investor to set a stop loss and to follow discipline in trading.
“It takes discipline to master your emotion.”
– Olan Suthivej
01:26 – Andrew tells about Olan’s background in career and education
02:52 – Olan recalls how his stocks investments during his MBA days were initially doing well but eventually turned out loosing 20%
05:28 – Lessons learned by our guest
06:22 – Andrew summarizes his takeaways
12:08 – Olan gives an option on how and what to invest if you don’t actively trade in stocks
13:29 – Ending the show with this simple but powerful advice: “Stay focused and be disciplined.”
Lesson 1: “You should follow your initial target. It takes discipline to master your emotion. It's like gambling as always. If you win more, you always want to win a bit more. But again, I think the great trader always follow their disciplines and make a decision because he's always in the news. You win some, (you) lose some.”– Olan Suthivej
Lesson 2: “The first one (mistake people did) is it failed to do their research. The second major area that people make is failing to properly assess risk. The other thing is the concept of a tip.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 3: “If you make a profit, you will never make a loss, no matter how big or small it was. It's still a profit. At least you know, you're not losing any money.” – Olan Suthivej
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Tony Watson is an investment professional with more than 20 years of experience in Asia (ex-Japan) credit markets. He joined Far East Investment Limited in 2016 where he is currently a Portfolio Manager and Responsible Officer. He was regularly ranked by Asiamoney, FinanceAsia and The Asset as one of Asia (ex-Japan)’s top 10 publishing credit analysts between 2001 and 2007. Tony joined the Hong Kong Society of Financial Analysts in 1996 and became Vice President in 2017 and President in 2018. He was HKSFA’s Acting Managing Director from March to September 2015. He was named CFA Institute’s 2015 Volunteer of the Year and awarded its 25-year Continuing Education Milestone in 2017. He became a CFA charter holder in 2000. He graduated with an MBA degree from Western Business School at the University of Western Ontario with an MBA in 1995 and BBA from St. Francis Xavier University in 1988.
In this episode, Tony shared his story investing in a medium sized trust company that was priced at $10 per share and how it devastatingly dropped down to zero. Learn why it is important to know the risk involved in trust investments, why it is important to understand what happens to trust companies in times of credit stress.
“If the markets are telling you something, listen, don't find good reasons to continue in your path.”
– Tony Watson
01:39 – Andrew gives a summary of Tony’s educational and professional experience
03:24 – Tony narrates how his investment in a trust company ended up as a big loss
06:58 – Sharing how this experience essentially helped him in his career as a credit analyst
09:14 – Andrew tells what he learned with banks and financing specifically in Asia
13:00 – Tony gives one actionable advice to avoid the same situation he did
13:26 – Andrew summarizes the six important and common mistakes in his podcasts
14:23 – Parting words from Tony: “Listen to what the market's telling you.”
Lesson 1: “A trust company is not a bank. A small trust company is not too big to fail.”– Tony Watson
Lesson 2: “My big takeaway there is only the biggest banks are too big to fail, and only banks get bailed out.”– Tony Watson
Lesson 3: “(The mistakes I did) Number one, do your research. Number two, things go the wrong way and continue to go the wrong way. Don't look for reasons why they can turn around and realize that you own all the loss on this and you've got to decide to stop loss and get out at some point. Other than that, ask questions from people who know. I relied on folksy mom and pop research just asking friends and family. I should have sat down with a bank analyst or done a little reading and just better understood what happened to trust companies in times of credit stress.” – Tony Watson
Lesson 4: “Thousand credit officers in the bank are likely to do a better job at allocating that capital towards the most attractive opportunities than maybe an equity investor that's trying to find a thousand different companies to invest in.”– Andrew Stotz
Lesson 5: “Six common mistakes that are made: First is a failure to do research. Second is a failure to properly assess the risk. The third is to be driven by emotion or flawed thinking a little bit about that cognitive bias. Fourth is misplaced trust. I note down that this company had two interesting words in its name, guarantee, and trust. And number five is failed to monitor their investment. Number six in a category, all by itself, is invested in a startup company, which this was not that case.”– Andrew Stotz
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Paul Sheehan has more than 25 years of experience in financial institutions, starting as a central banker at the Federal Reserve Bank of New York. Subsequently, he was a Managing Director and Head of Financial Institutions for Lehman Brothers, Bear Stearns, and ING Barings, and founder and CEO of Thaddeus Capital, an institutional fund manager. He continues to advise governments, sovereign wealth funds, and multilateral institutions. Paul is a US citizen and was educated at the State University of New York, Yale and Harvard. He is currently the CEO of Melmotte Brothers, which is based in Hong Kong and covering emerging markets in Asia, Europe, and Africa.
In this episode, Paul shares his worst investment ever story that was related to the sell-off of Bank Internasional Indonesia (BII) in 2008, a transaction that almost caused him to lose his firm plus $37 million worth of shares in 15 minutes. Learn why it is essential always to watch the market and to remember that a deal is never done until it is done.
“That concept of certainty is what leads you into trouble.”
– Paul Sheehan
01:15 – Paul's professional background
03:03 – Paul narrates the series of events behind investing in an Indonesian bank
17:27 – He recounted why things didn’t go as planned and how it almost caused a massive amount of loss and considered his worst investment experience
25:21 – Sharing the valuable lessons he learned and the advice to avoid falling into the same situation
27:37 – Andrew shares a brief story when he sold his motorcycle and got the payment check only to bring it back to the bank because the payment was stopped
29:30 – Paul ends the episode with this advice: “Always talk about your losers because you don't learn anything from winning.”
Lesson 1: “Do not get complacent. Nothing is ever done until it's done.”– Paul Sheehan
Lesson 2: “To say markets are discontinuous and the idea that if something goes wrong, you can get out, does not always apply even if I paid attention.”– Paul Sheehan
Lesson 3: “Always watch the market. If the market sells off 25% in 20 minutes, someone knows something more than you do, you should consider getting out no matter what.”– Paul Sheehan
Lesson 4: “Never bet the firm.”– Paul Sheehan
Lesson 5: “Always talk about your losers because you don't learn anything from winning.”– Paul Sheehan
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Franki Chung is a CFA charter holder and has a massive 24 years of experience in equity/fixed income analysis and portfolio management in Asia Pacific ex-Japan. He was the Chief Investment Officer of MEAG HK, the asset management arm of Munich Reinsurance. Based in Hong Kong, he and his team cover Asian equities and fixed income portfolios for Munich Reinsurance. Before joining MEAG in 2010, he was the deputy head of Asia Equities in Baring Asset Management and responsible for country allocation, stock selection and managing equity portfolios in the Asia Pacific. He currently heads Prosper Global Asset Management, an investment company, as its Chief Investment Officer.
Get to know Franki as he shares his worst investment story as a fund manager studying a recycling company portfolio. Learn the operational frauds that he discovered as he was studying this company. Know why it is important for a traditional active management manager to visit the company, know the stakeholder's values and build trust around the business model before considering adding the business to the portfolio.
“At the end of the day, the complete avoidance is almost impossible. If they want to hide from you, they can always hide.”
– Franki Chung
01:09 – A brief introduction of the guest and how they crossed paths with Andrew years ago
03:05 – Franki narrates on how he, as a Fund Manager in CIBC (Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce) studied a recycling company and the unusual and odd operational transactions he discovered in it
09:03 – Unveiling the lessons he learned from this experience
10:10 – Andrew sums up his takeaways
15:17 – Franki's advise as a passive investor
Lesson 1: “At the end of the day, the complete avoidance is almost impossible that if they want to hide from you, they can always hide. So, the only thing is that through diversification to put all the extras. Understand the management, but you can do as much as you can.”– Franki Chung
Lesson 2: “(As passive investors), we just actively studied the company, but in the end, we do not have the operational control or did intervene. We have to be active to some part, but like any one of us, we have to know our limit, how active we can.”– Franki Chung
Lesson 3: “Fraud does come as a surprise at times. And so, there's nothing you can do sometimes if someone's a very good, sneaky, tricky person.”– Andrew Stotz
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