Hillary Frank, the creator of the podcasts The Longest Shortest Time and Here Lies Me, talks with journalist and author Judith Warner about middle school. They discuss the history of middle school in America and abroad, some of the formative social forces at play for middle schoolers, why the journey through middle school is akin to a kind of death, and why it is that children of this age — on the verge of adolescence — often act like such... jerks. Host: Hillary Frank (@hillaryfrank), podcast producer, author Guest: Judith Warner, author References:  And Then They Stopped Talking to Me: Making Sense of Middle School by Judith Warner (Crown; 2020, paperback, 2021) Here Lies Me podcast (written, produced, and directed by Hillary Frank; produced in collaboration with Lemonada Media) Weird Parenting Wins by Hillary Frank (TarcherPerigree; 2019) Enjoyed this episode? Rate Vox Conversations ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Subscribe for free. Be the first to hear the next episode of Vox Conversations by subscribing in your favorite podcast app. Support Vox Conversations by making a financial contribution to Vox! bit.ly/givepodcasts This episode was made by:  Producer: Erikk Geannikis Editor: Amy Drozdowska Engineer: Paul Robert Mounsey Deputy Editorial Director, Vox Talk: Amber Hall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices