In this extended conversation Robert A.F. Thurman and Dr. Mark Epstein M.D. discuss the history of scientific studies on the effects of meditation training since Buddhism's migration to the West and encounter with materialists, psychotherapists and poets.

Settling down after their annual Buddhism and Psychotherapy gathering, Bob Thurman and Mark Epstein reflect upon their twenty plus years teaching together, the on-going dialog between mental health care-givers and Buddhist Psychonauts, highlighting the teachers and teachings which impacted their work, writing and personal journeys.

Candidly sharing details about his next book, Mark describes his academic career, the untold stories behind his groundbreaking writings, and shows how his lifelong combination of concentrated meditation practice with clinical psychological practice and study have earned him his eminent place on the front lines of the mindfulness revolution.

This episode includes: an exploration of the influence of the historical Buddha, Freud, Ginsberg, John Cage, D.W. Winnicott, D.T. Suzuki, Tsongkhapa, 14th Dalai Lama, Yeshi Dhonden, Gelek Rimpoche, wives and close family have had upon Professor Thurman and Dr. Epstein, an introduction to Abhidharma, and the relationship between Buddhist Inner Sciences, Vajrayana, yoga and modern psycho-therapeutic practice.

Recorded August 2020 this podcast includes a possible solution to the Zen koan of "one hand clapping", also known as the un-stuck sound.

Tibet House US Menla Conversations with Mark Epstein M.D. - Ep. 241 of the Bob Thurman Podcast photo by David Gabriel Fischer via Zen Diary.