The number of rat-related complaints in American cities has spiked in recent years. In the most overrun cities – Chicago, Washington, DC and New York – officials are stepping up efforts to find and kill them. New York is going so far as to hire a rat czar in charge of stamping them out.

Good luck with that. Cities have tried and failed for decades to control rats. So what can be done to contain the population of these rapidly reproducing rodents?

To answer that question, Big Take podcast producers Kathryn Fink, Rebecca Chaisson and Sam Gebauer hit the streets with a rat control squad in Washington and rodentologist Dr. Bobby Corrigan in New York. We also speak with New York Sanitation Commissioner Jessica Tisch. The good news: we can bring rats under control. The bad news: human nature means we probably won’t.

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