An American flag, football, the national anthem, “Make America Great Again” — all of these can be symbols of American patriotism, but to whom? In 2022, the notion of being a patriot is complex to say the least, and in a divided nation one might ask: Who gets to be called a patriot, and what does patriotism really mean in America?

This week, Jane and her guests dig into how each of them feels about patriotism and how our two dominant political parties use the idea to their own ends.

Ben Rhodes, former deputy national security adviser from 2009 to 2017, posits that a fundamental sense of patriotism still holds in America today. “This has always been about the story we tell about ourselves and that we don’t live up to,” Ben says. “I think patriotism is basically about the effort to live up to the better version of the story that America tells us about itself.”

Jamelle Bouie is a columnist with Times Opinion and resists the idea that it’s possible to forge a unifying sense of patriotism across the country. America is simply too large and too diverse to unite on a baseline of meaning. Patriotism, he argues, rests at the individual level: “I think all you have to do is identify what are the things that are valuable to you? What are the things that are important to you? And you pursue them,” he says.

What does patriotism mean to you? Would you call yourself a patriot? We want to hear from you. Share your thoughts in the comments on The New York Times website once you’ve listened to the debate.

Mentioned in this episode:

• “After the Fall” Being American in the World We’ve Made” by Ben Rhodes.
• “This Is No Time for Passive Patriotism” by Ben Rhodes in The Atlantic.
• “After Nationalism: Being American in an Age of Division” by Samuel Goldman.
• “The Moral Philosopher and the Moral Life” by William James in the International Journal of Ethics.

(A full transcript of the episode will be available midday on the Times website.)