In this episode of the Criminals series, the gang talks with Rebecca Jarvis, host of “The Dropout” about Elizabeth Holmes and Theranos. Who were the real victims of Holmes’ crimes? How did her lofty goals drift into scandal? And where does she sit on a scale of “one to evil”? If you enjoy this show, please consider signing up for Slate Plus. Slate Plus members get an ad-free experience across the network and an additional segment of our show every week. You’ll also be supporting the work we do here on Slate Money. Sign up now at slate.com/moneyplus to help support our work. Podcast production by Patrick Fort. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices