The car is synonymous with Detroit. It is, after all, the Motor City. You might even be listening to this in your car.

But what if there was a different way forward than a vehicle for every man, woman and even sometimes, child?

What if instead of a half hour at the gym then a half hour in your car, you could bike or walk and get to where you’re going? Or, like here in Michigan, get around without paying the highest car insurance in the nation?

It seems like crazy talk, I know. But it’s a growing movement in car-dominated America, and here in Metro Detroit. Both the city and some suburbs are making improvements aimed at making more walkable and bikeable neighborhoods.

Our guest today is Doug Gordon. He’s a co-host of The War On Cars podcast and a long time advocate of city life that actually experiences the city you live in instead of whizzing past it at 70 miles an hour.