Verge editor-in-chief talks with Wired senior editor Andy Greenberg, author of Sandworm: A New Era of Cyberwar and the Hunt for the Kremlin's Most Dangerous Hackers. Greenberg's book is all about a group of hackers inside the Russian government called Sandworm, who were responsible for damaging cyber warfare attacks in various countries over the past few years. Andy and Nilay discuss the origins of Sandworm, the intricacies of their attacks, and how they escalated what we think of as "cyber war." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices