This week I published an trump-ezra-klein-podcast.html">audio essay about what I think is unique about Donald Trump as a personality and political figure and the dangers he poses if he gets a second term in the White House. But I wanted to go deeper on this topic with someone who knows him much better than I do.

Maggie Haberman is a senior political correspondent for The New York Times and has traced his evolution over the decades in her 2022 book, “Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.”

In this conversation, we discuss what Haberman agreed and disagreed with in my essay, the forces that shaped Trump’s ideas of politics and power as a real estate developer in New York City, what she thinks he wants from a second term (including his desire for revenge), how his inner circle has changed since his time in office, what he might do if he loses and more.

Note: This conversation was taped before Trump’s former chief of staff John Kelly went kelly-trump-fitness-character.html">on the record saying that Trump meets the definition of a fascist and confirming that the former president made admiring statements about Hitler.

Mentioned:

“trump-ezra-klein-podcast.html">What’s Wrong With Donald Trump?” by Ezra Klein

“speeches-age-cognitive-decline.html">Trump’s Speeches, Increasingly Angry and Rambling, Reignite the Question of Age” by Peter Baker and Dylan Freedman

“campaign-costs.html">Trump Leans On Creative Bookkeeping to Keep Up in Cash Race” by Shane Goldmacher and Maggie Haberman

Book Recommendations:

Kamala’s Way by Dan Morain

Romney by McKay Coppins

American Carnage by Tim Alberta

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at klein-show-book-recs.html">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.

This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our supervising editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jack McCordick.

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