“I call shame the twenty-ton shield,” says Brené Brown. “It's a defense mechanism—very classic—that we carry in order to protect ourselves from getting hurt. But what it actually does is protect us from being seen.” Brown is a research professor at the University of Houston, a New York Times–bestselling author (read her latest, Dare to Lead), and the star of a new Netflix special, The Call to Courage. In this chat, she and GP talk about courage, which Brown says is teachable and possible to cultivate only from a place of vulnerability. They talk about being perfectionists: “Where perfectionism is driving, your shame is riding shotgun,” says Brown. And they talk about empathy—as a tool for combating shame internally and for stepping beyond yourself to connect with and lead others. (For more, see The goop Podcast hub.) To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices