As covid-19 raged, speculation grew that the crisis would re- strengthen public support for the state; faith in experts; and both pro- and anti-Europeanism. But ECFR’s latest research reveals these all to be illusions. Instead, the crisis has revolutionised citizens’ perceptions of global order – scrambling the distinctions between nationalism and globalism. Host Mark Leonard is joined by Ivan Krastev, co-author of the new Unlock study and chair of the Centre for Liberal Strategies in Sofia as well as by ECFR co-chair Lykke Friis and Ismaël Emelien, co-founder of En Marche! and President Emmanuel Macron 's former special advisor for strategy, communication and speeches. Together they discuss the findings of ECFR’s Unlock project: how has the pandemic changed European politics and the Europeans’ view of the EU and the world? Find the paper by Ivan Krastev & Mark Leonard here: https://www.ecfr.eu/publications/summary/europes_pandemic_politics_how_the_virus_has_changed_the_publics_worldview This podcast was recorded on 25 June 2020 Bookshelf: -“Is it tomorrow yet?: Paradoxes of the pandemic” by Ivan Krastev -“The uncontrollability of the World” by Hartmut Rosa -“The new progressivism: a grassroots alternative to the populism of our times” by Ismaël Emelien & David Amiel