There are so many ways you can engage with the beer world on a professional level—but few are more ambitious that attempting to become a Master Cicerone.

The term “Cicerone” is still a relatively new concept in the beverage world—but you’ve probably heard of a Master Sommelier in the wine industry. It’s not exactly the same thing—for example, the Cicerone exam focuses significantly on troubleshooting draft technology—but they’re similar in that both require an intense knowledge base (both historic and contemporary), as well as a master-level tasting ability.

For most people, it takes hundreds of hours of study, an almost full-time dedication and focus to pull it off. And even then, almost everyone fails.

In today’s conversation, I sit down with Em Sauter: a cartoonist and beer educator who found herself compelled towards beer for some not-so-obvious reasons. When we speak, she’s preparing to take her second Master Cicerone exam the day after we record.

It’s an incredibly tense, existential time. I mean, she’s already been through all this once, failed, and is coming back for more with no guarantee that she’ll make it this time either. But for the purposes of capturing an oral history of a time, person, and place in beer, it couldn’t be more perfect.

This is Em Sauter of Pints and Panels. Listen in.