Over thirty years ago, Elaine Pagels’ young son and husband died within the same year. In this tender conversation, Kate and Elaine discuss surviving the aftermath of such devastation, the painful explanations religion often offers, and how we love and keep loving even after so much tragedy.  Together, they discuss: The need for connection to others during grief Religion’s often painful and punitive explanations for suffering (and why they aren’t helpful or complete) Why parents often feel like they’ve “failed” when a child dies How suffering pulls us closer to mystery  This episode is for someone who has ever had the thought “haven’t I suffered enough?” Elaine and Kate are trusted companions in a life that hasn’t turned out like we thought it should.  CW: death of a child, death of a spouse *** Looking for the transcript or show notes? Click here. Find Kate on Instagram or Facebook or Twitter. THE LIVES WE ACTUALLY HAVE: 100 Blessings for Imperfect Days is out now. Learn more, here. We have free Lent guides for you to use by yourself, with a group, or with your church. Click here to get started. Leave us a voicemail and who knows? We might even be able to use your voice on the air: 919-322-8731 A big thank you to Jed Meyers for contributing his beautiful poem to today's episode. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices