How do we make sense of chaos and lead through it? What can we expect from Generation Z / Generation Alpha as leaders? What is the antidote to the pessimism we experience  through post-modernism? These are some of the robust questions James and I explore in our conversation about his book, Metamodern Leadership - A history of seven values that will change the world. We travel through the historical periods of modernism, post-modernism, and metamodernism to look at how we see and operate in the world. We look at developmental models of human experience. We consider the 4 generational archetypes and how they have affected our leadership over the ages. We ask, Trump vs Obama, nationalism vs globalism - what will empower people and nations? How can we lead from behind in chaos? A very full and engaging conversation for those interested in leadership needed for our complex world. Resources and books mentioned: James’s 7 values as explored in the book: Art and ego - Participation Social theory and cooperation - partnership (sharing economy) Psychology and motivation - personalization (know thyself) Philosophy and  education - pedagogy (teach through problem solving) Ecology and capitalism - purpose (purpose not capitalism ) Mythology and leadership - power shift ( leading from behind - understanding complex natural systems) Globalization and democracy - planetary shift (a more inclusive, compassionate leadership) “Leadership then cannot be just another discipline to learn but a melding of all the virtues of human knowledge” Create Seven Jane Loevinger - Theory of Ego Development Bill Torbert - Action Inquiry and Leadership  Ken Wilber - Integral Thoerist and Philosopher Ken Wilber - the Four Quadrants Hanzi Freinacht Michelle Gelfand - Rule Makers, Rule Breakers: How Culture Wires Our Minds, Shapes Our Nations and Drives Our Differences The symbol of Janus Jordan Peterson - a return to convention The Fourth Turning, Howe and Strauss About James Surwillo: James Surwillo, MA, PMP is a speaker, author, and leader in a Fortune 15 company. He is an advocate for the leadership of the next generation and an authority on the history of generational and cultural change. His goal is to help business, government, and non-profit organizations adopt strategies based on the inevitable human resources and leadership transformation. Leadership and followship as a practice, is very contextual and mythological. Why we lead and why we follow is much deeper than we as individuals even understand. The more we can understand these differences the more effective leaders we can become. Further information can be found at jamessurwillo.com and his book Metamodern Leadership is available at all major outlets".  ***