Writer Joe Menn talks with Recode's Kara Swisher about his most recent book, "Cult of the Dead Cow: How the Original Hacking Supergroup Might Just Save the World." In this episode: How Menn started writing about cybercrime; the rise and fall of Napster; his first book about hacking, “Fatal System Error”; the origins of Cult of the Dead Cow; “they’re basically good guys”; its invite-only membership and how it works; how it forced Microsoft to take security seriously; how future presidential candidate Beto O’Rourke got involved; what other CDC alumni are doing today; the state of cybercrime in 2019; the complexity of protecting yourself online; the government’s attempts to undermine encryption; the 2020 election; and what the US should do to protect its citizens. Follow us Kara Swisher (@karaswisher), host Joe Menn (@josephmenn), guest Erica Anderson (@EricaAmerica), executive producer Eric Johnson (@HeyHeyESJ), producer More to explore If you haven't already, subscribe to Recode Decode Subscribe to Recode's other podcasts: Recode Media, Pivot, and Land of the Giants Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices