We sat with Chris Murray for an intense conversation on IHME’s recent, startling (and controversial) forecast that the United States would experience a dramatic surge in Covid-19 infections and deaths by year’s end that will exceed the peak moments of April. Many of the drivers are behavioral – a decline in mask use, rising mobility, lower vigilance and social distancing. But the seasonality is what will truly turbocharge the pandemic. Why is that, and what gives confidence that seasonality will be so powerful? Why do we as a nation appear stuck on a roller-coaster, incapable of learning to stick with actions that work? Chris Murray is Director of the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) and Chair, Department of Health Metrics Sciences, at the University of Washington