Donald Trump will not be president forever. Whether he leaves office in 2021 or 2025; whether he steps down peacefully or not; whether he’s replaced by a Democratic president or a Republican one—he will leave. And then the country will face the immense task of restoring democratic norms and facing up to the failings that allowed a populist, white-nationalist demagogue like Trump to reach office in the first place.

In this episode, with help from University of Chicago political scientist Will Howell, we look at the leading explanations for Trump’s rise and the competing ideas about ways to move forward after Trump.

Assuming Joseph R. Biden wins in November 2020—which isn’t a safe assumption, of course—should the next administration focus on structural reforms to make government more effective, so that Washington can then fix people’s real problems and take the oxygen out of populist anger? Or should it push forward with a program of cultural transformation that recognizes, and tries to root out, the deep strains of racism, xenophobia, and nihilism that fuel Trumpism and today’s Republican party?

It turns out (unsurprisingly) that your preferred prescription depends on your precise diagnosis of the country’s ills. Howell makes a strong argument for a reformist approach that puts good government and pro-social policies first. Other scholars fear that a deeper reckoning with Americans’ illiberal leanings will be required. As you’ll hear in the episode, I’m still of two minds. But I also hope there’s a middle way.

Chapter Guide

00:00 Content Warning

00:16 Soonish Opening Theme

00:30 Donald Trump Barrage Montage

01:13 What Is Donald Trump?

02:36 Never Another Trump

04:22 Disaster Response

05:07 Introducing Will Howell

07:30 Connecting Back to “Relic” and our Failing Constitution”

09:23 Defining Populism and its Harms

11:20 Once and Future Populist Demagogues

13:19 The Conditions for Populism, and How to Change Them

15:59 Institutional Reform or Policy Reform?

17:58 Redesigning the US Presidency

19:31 The F Word (Fascism)

20:13 Jason Stanley on Fascist Movements

21:09 Sarah Churchwell: “This Is What American Fascism Looks Like”

22:12 The Party of White Grievance 

23:48 Will Howell Responds: Forces Working in Tandem

26:43 The Reformist Left and the Cultural Left

28:01 A Middle Way

28:45 Structural Reform or Detrumpification? Priorities for the Next Administration

31:31 Best-Case Scenario

33:33 End Credits and Acknowledgements

35:12 Recommendation: The Constant

Notes

The Soonish opening theme is by Graham Gordon Ramsay.

Additional music is from Titlecard Music and Sound.

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Trump doll photo by Max Litek, shared on Unsplash. Thanks Max!