When kids turn two or three years old, they learn to tell what is called a “primary lie,” which is lying without much sophistication or awareness of how the listener will perceive the lie (hint: you completely failed to fool your parents). But when we turn four, we learn to tell “secondary lies,” which take into account the listener’s likely reaction, and are more plausible. When we turn seven or eight we learn to tell “tertiary lies,” where we also make sure our lie is consistent with surrounding facts. But not until you’ve asked your legislator to support Medicare for All have you experienced the apex of deception: you walk out knowing they didn’t agree with you, but you’re not sure if they disagree with you, or whether you’ve learned anything about their position on the issue! So today we are here to talk about “legislative pushback,” or evasion, or avoidance - basically the whole playbook of tactics that legislators employ to land between “yes” and “no.” We are joined by Eagan Kemp and Vinay Krishnan today. Eagan is the Health Care Policy Advocate at Public Citizen. He is an expert in health care policy, including single-payer systems, and he previously served as a senior policy analyst at the U.S. Government Accountability Office. Vinay Krishnan is the National Field Organizer for the Center for Popular Democracy. We know him as an organizer, but he’s also a writer of fiction and non-fiction, and an attorney based in Brooklyn, NY. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2-A6ubjVII Show Notes Medicare for All bills have not yet been introduced in the 118th Congress, the session that began in January 2023. Healthcare-NOW and our allies are starting our drive to gather co-sponsors BEFORE those bills are introduced. We expect the Medicare for All Act to be reintroduced before June in the House, and hopefully around the same time in the Senate. We aren’t as dumb as Fox News conservatives like to make us seem, so we know that there isn’t a great chance to pass M4A this session, but it’s important to keep the momentum going by getting new cosponsors on the bill. Our past success in gaining co-sponsors has been due in large part to citizen lobbyists asking, pressuring and demanding their elected officials sign on. If you've never called your Senator or member of Congress, we have a guide! now.org/makethecall">https://www.healthcare-now.org/makethecall. Some calls will be easy if you're lucky enough to be represented by die-hards like Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT) and Representative Pramila Jayapal (D-WA-7), the chief sponsors of the bills. But for many of the rest of us, our elected officials are wishy-washy, or even reluctant to sign on to M4A, so our guests give us some strategies for these conversations. Before we get into the objections, we want you to know you don't need to be a policy or health economics expert to talk to your elected officials. If you've been victimized by the American healthcare industry, you're an expert. While we've heard some wild reasons for not supporting M4A, most objections fall into a few basic categories: Downplaying the importance of co-sponsoring the bill "Medicare for All is just a slogan that's not going anywhere so I don't need to engage" "I'm not on a committee of jurisdiction so I can't co-sponsor" "I'm on a committee of jurisdictino so I can't co-sponsor" "I'm in leadership so I don't co-sponsor bills" Strategy: these answers tell you that the suffering of people in their district isn't important enough for them to take action. Help them understand why healthcare for all is so important for their constituents. Bring personal stories; stories can help break down initial barriers and make way for a real conversation. Next time bring even more people and more stories. "I support M4A but I won't co-sponsor" Strategy: consistent follow-up, so they continually feel the pressure. Allow them to ask questions and follow up with information.